NationStates Jolt Archive

The same generalization again, and again, and again...

The hatred of religion on these boards is astounding, the point being. Why do you Atheists care if somebody else believes in a God?
Why do you care if somebody doesn't believe in a God?

Why do you need to 'convert' them to Atheism (as many 'strong' ((Gay)) atheists testify)?
Why do you need to convert Atheists to Christianity? Your imaginary friend from above tells you to do so?
Yeah, I can hear the voices too.

You Atheists are just as dogmatic and fundamentalists as the priests screaming from their pulpits. Why can't you just let people worship in peace?
Why can't you just let people (that includes homosexuals, followers of other religions etc.) live in peace?

Why do you have to belittle their beliefs all out of an urge of intellectual elitism?
Why do you have to belittle their lifes all out of an urge of self-humilization and intolerance?

If you are so above us why do you need to belittle us all the time?
Man, that's too easy.

I'm glad Atheism has had it's twilight. People don't even hear the good things religion has done, The Catholic Church who organized the poor people in Central America to fight for democracy against the CIA backed tyrannies for example, many of those priests, Archbishop Romero for example, were martyred by AmeriKKKans in the CIA who hate religion.
Let's just forget about EVERYTHING Christianity screwed up.

Well, I hate Atheism as well.
J.C. would be proud of you, pal.

I find it hard to love a group of people that's only purpose, as dictated by his theistic ideology (or lack of it) is to belittle theists.
Most atheists don't give a fuck on you and your religion. Hard to imagine, isn't it?

It's the thought of non-existance.

That this me will blink out of being upon death. It's not pain leading up to death that scares me. It is exactly non-existance that does.

As a moral atheist, the consolation you seek upon reflection of your impending demise will come through: examination of the moral body of your life's work and the manner of person it has brought into being; the life experience in others you have positively affected; and the condition of humanity you will have improved.

As a thinking being, a conscious will, you have a potential for achieving living that other semi-conscious beings do not.

The ending of your will is indeed a time of mourning for yourself and the others you've positively influenced; but all good things must end.

Your loss inherent in your finity can be offset by the contributions you've made towards infinity: humanity.

Atheists come in moral and immoral varieties, just like every other cosmological belief system. Belief in God does not make you a good person, nor does disbelief.

Good people are by definition good and moral beings in the manner in which they lead their lives (their actions) not in the personal beliefs they harbor for the supernatural or for their afterlife.

Atheists, like Christians, Muslims, Semites, Buddhists, agnostics, deists, are all just people, and it is their relationships to other people which gauges their morality - not their relationship to their belief system. You can fail as an atheist or Christian, or succeed as such in being a moral person. The nature of where those morals originate does not, by virtue of those origins, determine their innate "goodness".

One can imagine all manner of people throughout human history who have done immoral acts for "good reasons". Those were still immoral acts. Equally one can imagine good acts done with perfectly neutral normative intentions, and those acts are still good.

Where one may morally evaluate a belief system is in the predictive quality of addressing its likely future moral acts.

Mother Teresa was a great moral authority regardless of why she did what she did. She was a great moral human based on her steadfast belief in assisting those who could not assist themselves; she is an authority because of the example she set for the rest of us in her perseverance and invariability for a moral cause.

The same generalization again, and again, and again...


Why do you care if somebody doesn't believe in a God?


Why do you need to convert Atheists to Christianity? Your imaginary friend from above tells you to do so?
Yeah, I can hear the voices too.


Why can't you just let people (that includes homosexuals, followers of other religions etc.) live in peace?


Why do you have to belittle their lifes all out of an urge of self-humilization and intolerance?


Man, that's too easy.


Let's just forget about EVERYTHING Christianity screwed up.


J.C. would be proud of you, pal.

Your views are based on stereotypes, very much like that of a racist. I am sorry to inform you but I do support Gay Marriage, except not in the Church, in a registry office or other institution. The Church should not support it but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get married. Strange how your stereotypical views break down after a while huh?

Idiot...

It's a theory in Quantum physics.

A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following diabolical device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that perhaps in the course of one hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid.

If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The first atomic decay would have poisoned it.

So, until the box is opened, and evidence to one side or the other can be viewed, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time.

Get it?


I beg to differ with you because, unfortunately for you and I, I am a strong realist. The cat is indeed dead or alive - it is just unknowable (by conditions set forth in the thought experiment). That does not change the value of the statement "cat is alive" - only how much we may know (and communicate) about the entire statement of "cat is alive".

Human knowledge is not superior to the environment about which it operates - it is inferior to it. So, for instance, it may be true that "cat is alive" is unknowable, but in that case we should not assign a truth value to the statement at all - it can not be true and false, for instance, nor true or false. Not being able to assign a truth value to a statement does remark on the limits of the potential for treating a statement - it does not remark upon the truth or falsity of the statement.

I refer you to a beautifully elegant summary section ending Wittgenstein's Tractatus:

“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence”

The word 'Christian' is a proper noun. 'Atheist' is not.The word 'Christian' is derived from 'Christ', a proper noun, and is capitalized for the same reason 'Reaganomics' is.

And I dont' see why either of those should be capitalized. That's like saying one must capitalize Buddhism, but not hindhuism.

What makes it especially silly is that both buddha and christ are not names, but titles. Unlike Reganomics.

Then why do you refuse to capitalize it? You know the truth, yet you refuse to abide by it.
The same reason I don't usually underline and capitalize book titles: I'm a lazy ass. Hell, this is the most I've capitalized anything in an online forum in quite some time. It's probably a good habit to get into afterall.

The hatred of religion on these boards is astounding, the point being. Why do you Atheists care if somebody else believes in a God? Why do you need to 'convert' them to Atheism (as many 'strong' ((Gay)) atheists testify)? You Atheists are just as dogmatic and fundamentalists as the priests screaming from their pulpits. Why can't you just let people worship in peace? Why do you have to belittle their beliefs all out of an urge of intellectual elitism? If you are so above us why do you need to belittle us all the time? I'm glad Atheism has had it's twilight. People don't even hear the good things religion has done, The Catholic Church who organized the poor people in Central America to fight for democracy against the CIA backed tyrannies for example, many of those priests, Archbishop Romero for example, were martyred by AmeriKKKans in the CIA who hate religion.

Well, I hate Atheism as well.

Now, in this pretty damn incoherent rant, one sentence stands out:

Why do you need to 'convert' them to Atheism (as many 'strong' ((Gay)) atheists testify)?

This seems to be making the assertion that either all atheists are gay or that all gay people are atheists. Now, if you're using this in terms of gay=happy then you're wrong there... if you're using gay in terms of gay=homosexual then you're also wrong. I can pretty much guarantee that the christian homosexuals outnumber the atheistic homosexuals for the simple reason that there are more christians, thus greater odds that there will be homosexuals among their population.

Furthermore, once again, I will point out to you that it was the christians who initiated the attack on this thread, not the atheists. As it generally occurs, it is the christian who starts to preach and attack first.

I find it hard to love a group of people that's only purpose, as dictated by his theistic ideology (or lack of it) is to belittle theists. It is unchristian of me but I can't help it.
?

Atheists don't have belittling religion as their only purpose. As I've said a number of times and will say a number more, atheists tend to go on the defensive after being attacked by a christian who is attempting a conversion... Generally it is not the atheist who strikes first.

Atheists tend to have better things to do.

As a moral atheist, the consolation you seek upon reflection of your impending demise will come through: examination of the moral body of your life's work and the manner of person it has brought into being; the life experience in others you have positively affected; and the condition of humanity you will have improved.

As a thinking being, a conscious will, you have a potential for achieving living that other semi-conscious beings do not.

The ending of your will is indeed a time of mourning for yourself and the others you've positively influenced; but all good things must end.

Your loss inherent in your finity can be offset by the contributions you've made towards infinity: humanity.

Atheists come in moral and immoral varieties, just like every other cosmological belief system. Belief in God does not make you a good person, nor does disbelief.

Good people are by definition good and moral beings in the manner in which they lead their lives (their actions) not in the personal beliefs they harbor for the supernatural or for their afterlife.

Atheists, like Christians, Muslims, Semites, Buddhists, agnostics, deists, are all just people, and it is their relationships to other people which gauges their morality - not their relationship to their belief system. You can fail as an atheist or Christian, or succeed as such in being a moral person. The nature of where those morals originate does not, by virtue of those origins, determine their innate "goodness".

One can imagine all manner of people throughout human history who have done immoral acts for "good reasons". Those were still immoral acts. Equally one can imagine good acts done with perfectly neutral normative intentions, and those acts are still good.

Where one may morally evaluate a belief system is in the predictive quality of addressing its likely future moral acts.

Mother Teresa was a great moral authority regardless of why she did what she did. She was a great moral human based on her steadfast belief in assisting those who could not assist themselves; she is an authority because of the example she set for the rest of us in her perseverance and invariability for a moral cause.
I'm not actually an atheist (an agnostic humanist...) this is a rather nice take on this. Thank you.

I beg to differ with you because, unfortunately for you and I, I am a strong realist. The cat is indeed dead or alive - it is just unknowable (by conditions set forth in the thought experiment). That does not change the value of the statement "cat is alive" - only how much we may know (and communicate) about the entire statement of "cat is alive".

Human knowledge is not superior to the environment about which it operates - it is inferior to it. So, for instance, it may be true that "cat is alive" is unknowable, but in that case we should not assign a truth value to the statement at all - it can not be true and false, for instance, nor true or false. Not being able to assign a truth value to a statement does remark on the limits of the potential for treating a statement - it does not remark upon the truth or falsity of the statement.

I refer you to a beautifully elegant summary section ending Wittgenstein's Tractatus:

“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence”
*sigh*

Someone doesn't understand quantum theory.

When one studies quantum mechanics, one comes to the understanding that it is often very counter intuitive and also, very weird.

"I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now. "

Finally someone willing to stand up and tell the truth. I'm very sorry the person's father died...but hiding behind some prideful outlook on life doesn't somehow make them better than anyone else..uncompromising...honestly i see it as ignorance.....God is truth...no matter what you believe we will all realize this eventually...."Every tongue will confess you are God, every knee will bow"

"I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now. "

Finally someone willing to stand up and tell the truth. I'm very sorry the person's father died...but hiding behind some prideful outlook on life doesn't somehow make them better than anyone else..uncompromising...honestly i see it as ignorance.....God is truth...no matter what you believe we will all realize this eventually...."Every tongue will confess you are God, every knee will bow"
And thank you for adding more fuel to the fire.

See, Battlestar, this is why atheists get pissed off at christians. Try hearing this every day. I'm not even an atheist and it pisses me off.

So who cares a lot of Socialist people died athiest that does'nt make your dad a hero or whatever your point was.

*sigh*

Someone doesn't understand quantum theory.

When one studies quantum mechanics, one comes to the understanding that it is often very counter intuitive and also, very weird.

It is not the understanding of quantum theory which is at issue in this thought experiment. We can talk about superposition, simultaneity, tunneling, heisenberg, massless interactions and the like til the cows come home and this thought experiment will still not be about much more than information theory.

Specifically, Schroedinger was trying to make a macro instantiation of the principle of superposition (the fact that in quantum studies, particles can be in two places at once until one measures them, when they are then "trapped" in a single place by the information they have yielded as to their position).

The premise being that like many different quantum issues: the observer can not get out of the way.

Schrodinger's cat thought experiment, however, does an inadequate job of macro instantiating superposition.

I mean no harm...I only wish the best for everyonbe...and honestly i know the best is GOD...honestly people....if i hated you ...i would say don't trust God....but when i say God is the way...i say it in love...because i don't want anyone to go to hell but rather experience the joys of being with the Father some day...i know most won't understand this...but its true...

It's kind of depressing to me that a supposedly adult woman like yourself is a militant atheist who tries to "deconvert" Christians by informing them that their beliefs are not backed by scientific evidence. You are missing the point of religious faith entirely. I am an 18-year-old atheist and I figured that out years ago.

You militant, anti-religious atheists give us all a bad name."I know what I know. Don't bother me with facts."

You realise, of course, that works on both sides of the argument. It is all-too human nature to be thoroughly convinced of your own superior understanding of the world, whatever that understanding may be.

But athiests don't say that humanity is the greatest power, just that God/whatever diety(ies) doesn't/don't exist. Aliens are still possible :)
Oh, there are "aliens". Just not the x-files type. We're surrounded by spirits but they aren't seen or contacted by infomercial spirtualists or others of that ilk. GOD can be seen all around us. How anyone with intelligence who can still claim that there is no God is beyond me. He's evidenced from the universe as a whole to the smallest microbe.
I would ask atheists this...where did it all come from? Did the world just pop out of nothingness? Now that really takes a leap of faith. :)

Your views are based on stereotypes, very much like that of a racist. I am sorry to inform you but I do support Gay Marriage, except not in the Church, in a registry office or other institution. The Church should not support it but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get married. Strange how your stereotypical views break down after a while huh?
How nice of you to ignore nearly all my points. This only proves that you actually have no counter-arguments.
So you support gay marriage? Make sure your brothers in faith don't hear that, because you may draw their anger on you (and God's too.)

Idiot...
*gasp*
J.C. told us to love our enemies!

I would ask atheists this...where did it all come from? Did the world just pop out of nothingness?
Where did God came from? Did he just pop out of nothingness?

I find it hard to love a group of people that's only purpose, as dictated by his theistic ideology (or lack of it) is to belittle theists. It is unchristian of me but I can't help it.
Only point is to belittle theists?
Wait, so all people that don't believe in God just do it because they want to belittle theists?

I think you're making a rather large sweeping generalization there.

The hatred of religion on these boards is astounding, the point being. Why do you Atheists care if somebody else believes in a God? Why do you need to 'convert' them to Atheism (as many 'strong' ((Gay)) atheists testify)? You Atheists are just as dogmatic and fundamentalists as the priests screaming from their pulpits. Why can't you just let people worship in peace? Why do you have to belittle their beliefs all out of an urge of intellectual elitism? If you are so above us why do you need to belittle us all the time? I'm glad Atheism has had it's twilight. People don't even hear the good things religion has done, The Catholic Church who organized the poor people in Central America to fight for democracy against the CIA backed tyrannies for example, many of those priests, Archbishop Romero for example, were martyred by AmeriKKKans in the CIA who hate religion.

Well, I hate Atheism as well.
Well, why do Christians try to convert atheists? Why should you get to, and they not get to?

Also, I don't see much hatred... I see people who were asked their opinions, who then answered.

Where did God came from? Did he just pop out of nothingness?
God is infinite... Think of him as pi, but invisible

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.


I'm down with that. [As I hear they say on the streets.]

God is infinite... Think of him as pi, but invisible

So only useful to mathematicians whop care about the exact size of circles?

Or something without which your life will be unchanged, if not improved due to wondering how long forever is?

What did this analagy mean?

So only useful to mathematicians whop care about the exact size of circles?

Or something without which your life will be unchanged, if not improved due to wondering how long forever is?

What did this analagy mean?
Pi is the only infinite thing that I can think of at the moment. If he's infinate, then there is no need to comprehend his greatness, for there is no way to. As of now, nobody knows life without God, because we don't even know if he exists yet.

God is infinite... Think of him as pi, but invisible
That doesn't sound very convincing, you know. What did he do before he created the Universe?

That doesn't sound very convincing, you know. What did he do before he created the Universe?
Infinite....There was no before the universe...

That doesn't sound very convincing, you know. What did he do before he created the Universe?

I heard God was the reigning chess champion back then.

Pi is the only infinite thing that I can think of at the moment. If he's infinate, then there is no need to comprehend his greatness, for there is no way to. As of now, nobody knows life without God, because we don't even know if he exists yet.


Why would "infinite" ever mean "great"?

"I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now. "

Finally someone willing to stand up and tell the truth. I'm very sorry the person's father died...but hiding behind some prideful outlook on life doesn't somehow make them better than anyone else..uncompromising...honestly i see it as ignorance.....God is truth...no matter what you believe we will all realize this eventually...."Every tongue will confess you are God, every knee will bow"

An Atheist is someone who lacks supernatural beliefs, most notedly a belief in God(s). This doesn't mean atheists must replace one worship with another... some atheists may see human beings as the focus of the universe, others don't... it's not relevant to atheism.

I personally am an atheist that in no way considers humans to be the center of the universe, or as having any meaningful impact on anything except maybe their own little planet/local solar system, and thats only for a microscopic period of time. In other words, not even a blip on the radar from the universe's perspective.

And yet, I don't believe in any divine or supernatural being, authority, no God, no judgement... I don't worship anything, and I'm not intellectually ambitious.

If I met an atheist that thought humans were the most important thing in the world, I would think he was stupid and delusional. If I met someone who thought that an all knowing, all powerful, all present being existed and was concerned with what happens with us humans, then I would also consider him stupid and delusional

that is, if I ever were to meet one of these fellows.......

"I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now. "

Does that imply that there are people claiming to be atheists, that actually know God exists, but go around tricking people into disbelieving in Him? Where would you get that from? Why?

if he's dead, and gone to God, then he would know God exists, he wouldn't have to believe. Belief without evidence or rational explanation can be either one of two things: Gullibility, or Insanity. Usually, it's both, beginning with the first, and resulting in the latter.

God is truth? So what is truth? If you say God, well then, what are you actually talking about? What do the words really mean to you, are you just throwing them out there?

I agree with you that dying as an atheist doesn't make you any better than anyone else. Who knows if the father was prideful, or arrogant about it? I didn't know the guy, unlike you apparently, that knew him so well you felt like you could write intimitely about this man's personality and opinion with little concern.



"I'm very sorry the person's father died"

there is no 90% Truth. Maybe one day when your words are 100% sincere and honest, then I might consider your beliefs if you hold them to the same standards.

until then, take care friend!

I hope this wasn't a real downer, not my intention. Have a nice day!

~mr popular

God is infinite... Think of him as pi, but invisible

If you assume that there can be axioms of infinity, then why not consider that the Energy (you know, that stuff that can be neither created nor destroyed.) inside what we called the "Big Bang" singularity, has always been here. And thus conclude that an all knowing, all powerful jewish folktale character was at the least not necessary for the creation and/or development of this universe, if not nonexisting altogether.

I mean, I've read on Muslim message boards people suggesting that the Allah they worship is infinite, and the creator. What makes your invisible man in the sky any better than theirs?

I'm honestly asking, none of my questions are rhetorical, I actually want to see how people would answer these questions which I think are important to ask.

..

Let's assume that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being did exist before time (and for some reason he's invisible.). What prompted him (apparently) to create something? to create time? Why would he then care so much about human beings?

I really want to know, because it would seem to me that an all knowing, all powerful creature would have absolutely no reason to create a universe, or set it up so that a single species of primate may have the vague and sometimes unavaiable opportunity to believe in him and follow the rules he has apparently given to us (in the form of a storybook written by humans 2000 years ago), only to judge us later based on these rules (regardless of the affects that our sense of rationality, which he gave to us as a cruel joke I guess, had on our decisions throughout life.), and then apparently store us again in some other dimension (supposedly heaven or hell). One a paradise for being gullible and obedient with respect to his guidelines for behaving during life, the other a punishment in the form of torture with fire for being influenced by not only the intelligence and options that He gave to us, but also the evils that he provided (and must have controlled Himself, being omnipotent), whose purpose was only to corrupt and damn.

Yeah, if you could explain that one to me, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

in my opinion though, mathematics is the only place where infinities can be applied usefully. And the place in the human mind where imagination, influence, and insecurity meet is the only place necessary for any God(s) to exist.

Hey by the way, have you ever seen that movie Pi? it was in black&white, it was about a mathematician searching for patterns in the stock market.. Craziness and calculations insue....

If you haven't seen it I recommend it, I think there is actually a scene somewhere in that movie where a jewish mathematician equates God with a circle. Or was it the universe?

one was from a movie, the other a friend told me

something along the lines of: "think of the universe as a perfect circle. it has no beginning, and no end. Yet someone would have had to first draw the circle."

that's either a line from a movie, or something a friend told me, i can't remember which.

anyhoo

watch pi, question your own beliefs, and then make a sandwich or something, i dunno.

take care!

~mr popular

[All comments, questions, and answers to the questions i ask are greatly appreciated! thanks guys!]