NationStates Jolt Archive

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.

I'm proud of him too.

Onwards to oblivion comrades!

Good on him.

as did mine.

my dad lived and died on his own terms even to the rejecting of measures that might have prolonged his life (but would not have given him the quality of life he wanted)

he didnt even want a funeral so we didnt have one for him. he lived a long and good life and when it was over, it was over.

Glad to hear it. My family has bragged about the few free thinkers they knew recanting for last minute salvation.

*tear in eye*
good for him

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.

Same with my Dad. I didn't follow in his footsteps, though.

I'd sure hate myself if I turned coward on my deathbed and begged an imaginary friend to save me.

Mine too, we had a non-religious funeral for him.

Always remember, your dad lived on his own terms and died on them. may we all only wish to be as lucky. Freaken A for your dad. I for one think he rocks!

That was good of him. I'm not an atheist myself honestly, but it's good to see people hold their own religious beliefs (or lack thereof) strong enough to hold onto them until they die, without collapsing to the fnal panic of death.

Your Dad should have joined the Church of Crubeos. We acknowledge that God may not exist.

I hope whoever survives me will throw a non-religious funeral. If I were to die now, I know I won't end up with one. My parents would do the religious thing.

I hope whoever survives me will throw a non-religious funeral. If I were to die now, I know I won't end up with one. My parents would do the religious thing.

What do you care, you'll be dead. Death isn't some romantic thing people, its the ending of human life. That's not good not matter what context you put it in, deserving, undeserving, religious, non-religious.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.

Actually, I'll probably be fish food. I want to be buried at sea.

Same with my Dad. I didn't follow in his footsteps, though.
I should hope you didn't - the idea of a dead person posting here creeps me out :)

What do you care, you'll be dead. Death isn't some romantic thing people, its the ending of human life. That's not good not matter what context you put it in, deserving, undeserving, religious, non-religious.

Doesn't it matter that they respect your memory by doing what you would have wanted?

Sorry, but about the whole atheist thing, you don't believe in any god or other Divine being creating everything. I just can't imagine it. I applaud your dad because I would find it difficult and life pointless if I was an atheist.

What do you care, you'll be dead. Death isn't some romantic thing people, its the ending of human life. That's not good not matter what context you put it in, deserving, undeserving, religious, non-religious.
True.

But I would rather not have people praying for me and being all depressed.

I would much rather everyone gather around and tell happy stories and not waste their time praying that i get to heaven or whatever...

Sorry, but about the whole atheist thing, you don't believe in any god or other Divine being creating everything. I just can't imagine it. I applaud your dad because I would find it difficult and life pointless if I was an atheist.
I found life pointless as a christian. All's fair.

I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.
I'll probably be plant food... I want to be creamated...

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.
This is the way I hope to go. He stuck to his guns in the face of death. Good for him, I can only hope it ends the same way for me.

What's with the weird connection between socialism and atheism? I've met hundreds of socialist leaning people in my life and only about 5-10 have been religious too.

Doesn't it matter that they respect your memory by doing what you would have wanted?

It matters to them, not you. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of funerals. But that shows the commitent of your family to you, it doesn't serve you in any way.

Good, I plan to go out the same way... Except Libertarian, no socialist.

Sorry, but about the whole atheist thing, you don't believe in any god or other Divine being creating everything. I just can't imagine it. I applaud your dad because I would find it difficult and life pointless if I was an atheist.


I hardly find it "pointless". Why do people feel the need to have their faith in a faceless being define who they are? Why is it that so many of us feel that being beholden to an entity of questionable existence is the only way to be "whole"?

That was good of him. I'm not an atheist myself honestly, but it's good to see people hold their own religious beliefs (or lack thereof) strong enough to hold onto them until they die, without collapsing to the fnal panic of death.

Yeah, it's fine if you're religious in the first place, but to be atheist all your life and then chicken out in the end just creeps me out.

What's with the weird connection between socialism and atheism? I've met hundreds of socialist leaning people in my life and only about 5-10 have been religious too.
Because socialism is the result of the Influence of Satan. Don't you know that? It's like you haven't even read the Bible.

I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now.
But athiests don't say that humanity is the greatest power, just that God/whatever diety(ies) doesn't/don't exist. Aliens are still possible :)

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.

What brought this on?

Nothing wrong with being a socialist. Idf he was a name calling Atheist that would be bad. (The kind of Atheist that attack Christians and other religions/ and can't handle others having a different opinion on religion and Supernatural)

I'm not sure about proud of him for that...but uh, good for you.

Atheist life seems kind of pointless... what is there to live for?

I hardly find it "pointless". Why do people feel the need to have their faith in a faceless being define who they are? Why is it that so many of us feel that being beholden to an entity of questionable existence is the only way to be "whole"?

well, not really pointless but questionable as to HOW we are here.i don't think i put it a good way. my religion doesn't make who i am but it plays a part and i would be lost and EXTREMELY confused if i didn't have my belief. i am willing to see the truth in other peoples beliefs but to believe we just somehow popped out of no where (i include the big bang so don't mention the damn thing. you know what i mean....)

Atheist life seems kind of pointless... what is there to live for?

How about today?

"You may say I'm a dreamer. But, I'm not the only one..."

Atheism:

You live for a bit.

You die.

The end.

Hmm... not very interesting, eh?

Atheist life seems kind of pointless... what is there to live for?

Why is it pointless? What's wrong with having children & raising them to be good people, productive members of society, to enjoy life? Why does there have to be more than that?

Atheist life seems kind of pointless... what is there to live for?

Life.

A serious question to all the religious people who commented "what is there to live for." What is it about religion that gives your life meaning? Just the guidance/spiritual comfort angle, or the promise of an afterlife? What?

Atheist life seems kind of pointless... what is there to live for?
life?

love, the beauty of the world, the mysteries of the universe, the smile of a child, the first flower of spring, the sight of a loved one, an embrace, a kiss, the sunrise, the sun set, the stars up in the sky, the ocean, the company of a pet, reproducing, playing, eating good food, learning, growing, changing, meeting new people, going new places...

there is so much to live for.

Life, exactly. Life is limited (in Atheism, at least).

No afterlife or real purpose.

Atheism:

You live for a bit.

You die.

The end.

Hmm... not very interesting, eh?
If you don't for the "you live for a bit" part interesting then I pity you.

A serious question to all the religious people who commented "what is there to live for." What is it about religion that gives your life meaning? Just the guidance/spiritual comfort angle, or the promise of an afterlife? What?

For most religious people there is an everlasting life to soon come for them.

I'll live for life, but I'd prefer to live for the eternal life.

A serious question to all the religious people who commented "what is there to live for." What is it about religion that gives your life meaning? Just the guidance/spiritual comfort angle, or the promise of an afterlife? What?

yes. yes it is. for me it is an easy way out of explaining this away. i am the kind of person who question so much that i doubt myself. it gives me comfort. to think someone is watching over me and that i am special. even if it sounds corny

What's with the weird connection between socialism and atheism?

See, to me the better question would be, "what's with this weird connection between realism and atheism?" But just call me a realist.. ;)

Life, exactly. Life is limited (in Atheism, at least).

No afterlife or real purpose.
I really pity you.

If you cannot see purpose in this life.. I just don't know what to say. I hope your life gets better though, it must be truly sad to be unable to find purpose in this life.

Why is it pointless? What's wrong with having children & raising them to be good people, productive members of society, to enjoy life? Why does there have to be more than that?

Exactly! I mean don't get me wrong, but I find the idea of your "soul" going to join some kind of deity up in the sky is bunk. Just like any religious person would find the atheist idea that god doesn't exist to be misguided.

Life doesn't need to be dictated to you by a collection of moralistic stories bound together in a leather cover for it to have meaning and purpose.

Life, exactly. Life is limited (in Atheism, at least).

No afterlife or real purpose.

Life is beautiful, incredible, full of so many amazing things. Why do you need more than that? I don't.

I really pity you.

If you cannot see purpose in this life.. I just don't know what to say. I hope your life gets better though, it must be truly sad to be unable to find purpose in this life.

I do know the purpose... to serve God.

I do know the purpose... to serve God.

You poor, poor person. Do you hate dancing too?

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.

Wow, it feels so good to know there are people who deny God even up to their deathbed.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You poor, poor person. Do you hate dancing too?

:D

To be honest, yes.

Atheism:

You live for a bit.

You die.

The end.

Hmm... not very interesting, eh?
Clue: I've bolded the interesting bit.

Religious belief or lack thereof should suit what you feel at the deepest level. Don't just pick one that would make the most interesting novel.

As for atheism, contrary to common belief we are not nihilists. Atheists don't deny happiness; they deny that it only exists in another life.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.

Either that, or...

You're born, you live, you die, your soul lives with god for eternity.

or,

You're born, you live, you die, repeat. ;)

On topic. While I do not approve of your dad's descision, I congratulate and respect him on keeping true to his believes to the very end. Good thing my dad isn't atheist:p

I don't believe in god. He's just an imaginary friend that should have been let go of when people reach the age of twelve.

I'm hoping to be buried on Pluto...

Wow, it feels so good to know there are people who deny God even up to their deathbed.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


And here's another point. Why do the religios types get soooo bunched up over it? Why not just let atheists be atheists, and stay away from them. Leave them alone. Why must there be posts like this, that berate dead people for their choice to be non-religious? Just butt the hell out of other people's beliefs.

And here's another point. Why do the religios types get soooo bunched up over it? Why not just let atheists be atheists, and stay away from them. Leave them alone. Why must there be posts like this, that berate dead people for their choice to be non-religious? Just butt the hell out of other people's beliefs.

Would you like me to paint hypocrit on your forehead, or can you do it yourself?

I wasn't the one who created an entire thread dedicated to shining the fact that someone's dad died a proud atheist. If you want to preach butting the hell out of other people's religous beliefs, you wouldn't create a thread like this.

We get into people's lives because we care about them.

Either that, or...

You're born, you live, you die, your soul lives with god for eternity.

or,

You're born, you live, you die, repeat.

The scientific evidence would be against what you believe, but believe whatever gets you through the night/day/life. None of us want to believe this is it! But most evidence would certainly suggest. So, I suspect make of your life in the here and now what you can, because they may in fact be no tomorrow.

The scientific evidence would be against what you believe, but believe whatever gets you through the night/day/life. None of us want to believe this is it! But most evidence would certainly suggest. So, I suspect make of your life in the here and now what you can, because they may in fact be no tomorrow.

Scientific evidence? You mean ramblings about how the old testament doesn't go together with modern belief on how the earth was created?

I don't like science. :p

Well, I cant say 'good for him'.
I do, however, admire somebody who sticks by his beleifs, even if he doesnt have any...

Exactly! I mean don't get me wrong, but I find the idea of your "soul" going to join some kind of deity up in the sky is bunk. Just like any religious person would find the atheist idea that god doesn't exist to be misguided.

Life doesn't need to be dictated to you by a collection of moralistic stories bound together in a leather cover for it to have meaning and purpose.

Hey you don't always go join the diety in the sky... Theres another one underground who really likes to burn people and torture them and put them in agony.

Me of course I believe im going to go out in a nice big ball of flames taking out as many as I can.. Or just leaving a bloated corpse..

What's up with you guys saying athiests don't have anything to live for? I'm a christian too, so I do know what you're saying, I just don't agree. Their walk is much like ours. Having desires, fullfilling desires, accomplishing goals, becoming successful, enjoying yourself... these are all things that everyone does. (given, a christians list of these things might be a bit different than an atheists)

I really hate it when atheists attack christians, but I hate it more when christians attack atheists. Who's being the hypocrit? The christian's faith tells them to soak it up, and only confront through love. The atheists don't have the belief, so they're not bound by it.

I admit that I have lashed back on occasion as well, but we all make mistakes. You're trying, and that's commendable, just keep check on your emotions.

Would you like me to paint hypocrit on your forehead, or can you do it yourself?

I wasn't the one who created an entire thread dedicated to shining the fact that someone's dad died a proud atheist. If you want to preach butting the hell out of other people's religous beliefs, you wouldn't create a thread like this.

Well anyone who can read (and I assume you can do at least that... unless you have someone doing it for you) would have noticed that I didn't start this thread. So, my question is still out there for you. And, acting like a jerk only makes drives people to not like you. Is that what you want?

Now that I think about it. Why would a great and good man in the sky tell his so called messanger of god "DA POPE" to tell everyone to destroy Muslims when they took Jersulam(sp?). Why would this great man whos supposed to love all tell his followers to destroy another group of people? Or was it just the will of man who has a bloodlust.

The scientific evidence would be against what you believe, but believe whatever gets you through the night/day/life. None of us want to believe this is it! But most evidence would certainly suggest. So, I suspect make of your life in the here and now what you can, because they may in fact be no tomorrow.

You can't say that noone agrees with me! No, I am not the only one that believes in god. Check this out: Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=397220) It is a link to a thread I started to see if people believe in god, and there are more believers on the site than atheist. Sorry, but you were wrong there...

You can't say that noone agrees with me! No, I am not the only one that believes in god. Check this out: Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=397220) It is a link to a thread I started to see if people believe in god, and there are more believers on the site than atheist. Sorry, but you were wrong there...


Let the pissing contest begin!!!

Now that I think about it. Why would a great and good man in the sky tell his so called messanger of god "DA POPE" to tell everyone to destroy Muslims when they took Jersulam(sp?). Why would this great man whos supposed to love all tell his followers to destroy another group of people? Or was it just the will of man who has a bloodlust.

There are few ties between Judiasts and Catholics. I'm not a spokesperson for catholics or anything (I'm Pentecostal:AoG), but I do know the basic doctrines. Judiasts (spelling?) don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God at all. Like I said, I don't know what the catholic belief is exactly, but I can tell you it's a lot different than Isreal's.

Now that I think about it. Why would a great and good man in the sky tell his so called messanger of god "DA POPE" to tell everyone to destroy Muslims when they took Jersulam(sp?). Why would this great man whos supposed to love all tell his followers to destroy another group of people? Or was it just the will of man who has a bloodlust.

he didn't tell us to destroy muslims. i mean, i do not go completely with what the pope says (even though i have to) but i don't recall him stating that. that goes against christian belief. i might as well say, or type, that all muslims are to kill christians and are instructed to do so. by a religious leader. the pope guides but i don't agree with his, uhmm, traditional methods adn ways of doing things

anyway it doesn't matter if your jewish, muslim, atheist, american, hindu, african, shit (sorry, shi'it), asian, european because, i mean, when it boils down to it, we're all christians

he didn't tell us to destroy muslims. i mean, i do not go completely with what the pope says (even though i have to) but i don't recall him stating that. that goes against christian belief. i might as well say, or type, that all muslims are to kill christians and are instructed to do so. by a religious leader. the pope guides but i don't agree with his, uhmm, traditional methods adn ways of doing things

I believe the whole reason for the war was just to reclaim the holy land jersalum(sp?) from the muslims. But it was pretty sad that the christians killed so many innocents but then again it was just bloodlust. It was also sad that the christians basically burned Constantinople.

I believe the whole reason for the war was just to reclaim the holy land jersalum(sp?) from the muslims. But it was pretty sad that the christians killed so many innocents but then again it was just bloodlust. It was also sad that the christians basically burned Constantinople.

yes, yes it was

anyway it doesn't matter if your jewish, muslim, atheist, american, hindu, african, shit (sorry, shi'it), asian, european because, i mean, when it boils down to it, we're all christians

How do you figure that?

Christian = Christ-like

I really don't see what is so great about the Christian view of the afterlife, myself. I can't understand why I'd want to spend eternity with someone with the politics of George Bush and his army of religious fundamentalists. At least in hell, I would get to talk to people who actually had some intelligence like Emma Goldman, Jean-Paul Sartre, Frederich Nietzsche, etc. I would have deep and engaging philosophical discussions that I wouldn't get in heaven.

But anyways back to the topic.... Atheists....

How do you figure that?

Christian = Christ-like

twas a joke

The scientific evidence would be against what you believe, but believe whatever gets you through the night/day/life. None of us want to believe this is it! But most evidence would certainly suggest. So, I suspect make of your life in the here and now what you can, because they may in fact be no tomorrow.
It's kind of depressing to me that a supposedly adult woman like yourself is a militant atheist who tries to "deconvert" Christians by informing them that their beliefs are not backed by scientific evidence. You are missing the point of religious faith entirely. I am an 18-year-old atheist and I figured that out years ago.

You militant, anti-religious atheists give us all a bad name.

I really don't see what is so great about the Christian view of the afterlife, myself. I can't understand why I'd want to spend eternity with someone with the politics of George Bush and his army of religious fundamentalists.
Actually, if you check out the New Testament, almost everything on the Bush agenda is in direct or indirect conflict with the message of Jesus.

I really don't see what is so great about the Christian view of the afterlife, myself. I can't understand why I'd want to spend eternity with someone with the politics of George Bush and his army of religious fundamentalists. At least in hell, I would get to talk to people who actually had some intelligence like Emma Goldman, Jean-Paul Sartre, Frederich Nietzsche, etc. I would have deep and engaging philosophical discussions that I wouldn't get in heaven.

what makes you think that? what if they are in heaven and there is no hell in a literal sense of the word. god forgives all and i believe if you truly repent you will, EVENTUALLT get in to 'Heaven'

But anyways back to the topic.... Atheists....

that wasn't the topic and poor fatpie started this by starting a thread in his father's honour.. honor... honour, anyway, in his honour and we made it into a religious thing. shame on you, on all of you and me. :(

He sounds like a great man. I am very sorry to here of your loss, and I hope that I can pass away in the same manner.

what makes you think that? what if they are in heaven and there is no hell in a literal sense of the word. god forgives all and i believe if you truly repent you will, EVENTUALLT get in to 'Heaven'

Do you really think Nietzsche would be in heaven? In all likelyhood, he would have hated it even more than I would.

But what about the Lance of Longinus and The Arch of the Covenant. These are both pieces of evidence of Christianity. Also the Lance which was said to bring victory in battle I believe. Hitler claimed it and suddenly he had captured almost all of Europe. Then by 1942 it disappeared from his grasp and it all came crashing down. The Arch when it was found was touched and the men collapsed dead when they touched it.

Do you really think Nietzsche would be in heaven? In all likelyhood, he would have hated it even more than I would.

well maybe that is his punishment so if you want to go to hell you better be good

It's kind of depressing to me that a supposedly adult woman like yourself is a militant atheist who tries to "deconvert" Christians by informing them that their beliefs are not backed by scientific evidence. You are missing the point of religious faith entirely. I am an 18-year-old atheist and I figured that out years ago.

You militant, anti-religious atheists give us all a bad name.


I still don't get it... ;)

You can't say that noone agrees with me! No, I am not the only one that believes in god. Check this out: Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=397220) It is a link to a thread I started to see if people believe in god, and there are more believers on the site than atheist. Sorry, but you were wrong there...
What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.

Having more people believe doesn't make your beliefs any more valid.

edit: and looking at the poll, the "no" and "not sure" people combined outnumber the "yes" people. Hell, the "no" people alone are a close enough second that it would be tough for you to call a decisive victory.

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.

I'm proud of him. My parents ar (non-practicing) Catholic, but I'm an Athiest, so I'd like this.

But what about the Lance of Longinus and The Arch of the Covenant. These are both pieces of evidence of Christianity. Also the Lance which was said to bring victory in battle I believe. Hitler claimed it and suddenly he had captured almost all of Europe. Then by 1942 it disappeared from his grasp and it all came crashing down. The Arch when it was found was touched and the men collapsed dead when they touched it.

Source? Besides "Raiders of the Lost ArK".

We get into people's lives because we care about them.
No you don't.

If I fell ill tomorrow you wouldn't give a damn, you wouldn't even know. You probably wouldn't even notice if half the people on here stopped posting.

You just want to lecture us.

We get into people's lives because we care about them.No you don't.

If I fell ill tomorrow you wouldn't give a damn, you wouldn't even know. You probably wouldn't even notice if half the people on here stopped posting.

You just want to lecture us.

You see Chev, due to Christian support of the likes of George Bush, this is the sort of attitde you are up against.

I'm proud of him. My parents ar (non-practicing) Catholic, but I'm an Athiest, so I'd like this.

hmm... you sound like my brother.... strange..... ARE YOU??????.... sorry just my paranoia, no wait it's not paranoia, it's cautiousness.... it's just my cautiousness... no, i'll stick with paranoia, it's faster to spell (faster to spell, i did not state spell correctly)

You see Chev, due to Christian support of the likes of George Bush, this is the sort of attitde you are up against.
This has nothing to do with Bush. I'm canadian...

This has to do with the fact that he came on this thread and went on about how the life of an atheist is pointless. He doesn't appear to give a damn about any non-theist, he just appears to want to lecture us about how his way of thinking is "better" than ours.

"Proud" to die an athiest? You mean, dying with the belief that there will be absolutely no consequences for the actions you've taken in life, no moral judgement? Yeah, real brave. :rolleyes:

I'm not even a religious person, but I think it's kinda ridiculous congratulating people for ceasing to exist.. especially when peace of mind is probably more difficult for a dying person of a strong religious faith with average good and bad moral choices in life, wondering if they had done enough to help friends 'see the light,' or done enough charity or kind deeds or suchlike...

But what about the Lance of Longinus and The Arch of the Covenant. These are both pieces of evidence of Christianity. Also the Lance which was said to bring victory in battle I believe. Hitler claimed it and suddenly he had captured almost all of Europe. Then by 1942 it disappeared from his grasp and it all came crashing down. The Arch when it was found was touched and the men collapsed dead when they touched it.

Fool, everyone knows that Seele has the real Lance of Longinus.

"Proud" to die an athiest? You mean, dying with the belief that there will be absolutely no consequences for the actions you've taken in life, no moral judgement? Yeah, real brave.

Morality is more complex than that, or I would hope it is.

I really can't see Nietche going to heaven. He might have been a good writer, and intelligent enough to be athiest, but he was also a bit crazy.

On Topic:
Your father was admirable. There is no one more contemptable than a death bed convert. Sticking to your guns, even in such a depressing and fear frought time as death is a sign of true strength.

Contrary to common beleif atheism is more fulfilling than a religious outlook. Rather than living for some reward and denying happiness of ourselves and others in the name of our imaginary friends we live for the sake of living, beleive in humanity, and strive to end suffering.

After all "What good is something if you don't get it until you die?" (Bad Religion; "The Downfall of Man (Live Again")

"Proud" to die an athiest? You mean, dying with the belief that there will be absolutely no consequences for the actions you've taken in life, no moral judgement? Yeah, real brave. :rolleyes:

It's a lot braver to die thinking that there is nothing but oblivion than to believe that some god will forgive you for all the wrongs you did because you said "I believe"

I'm not even a religious person, but I think it's kinda ridiculous congratulating people for ceasing to exist.. especially when peace of mind is probably more difficult for a dying person of a strong religious faith with average good and bad moral choices in life, wondering if they had done enough to help friends 'see the light,' or done enough charity or kind deeds or suchlike...
Bullshit. It's most certainly easier for those who believe that since they have accepted jesus, they automatically go to heaven.

It's a lot braver to die thinking that there is nothing but oblivion than to believe that some god will forgive you for all the wrongs you did because you said "I believe"


Bullshit. It's most certainly easier for those who believe that since they have accepted jesus, they automatically go to heaven.

If you're talking about a theist, Christian if you insist, who both thinks believing in God is an automatic ticket to heaven, and that said God is liable to simply forgive a lifetime of vice on a quick deathbed conversion, then I would agree - that hypothetical person, if they were so genuinely aloof as to think they would never be accountable for sins, would be less brave than an atheist. But this is comparing someone who believes only rewards are coming their way, versus someone who believes in none. I think this would be a generalization that considers shallow Christians with an entitlement complex, rather than ones who may have actually read the Bible, or at least the 10 Commandments, and realize it's not all milk and honey automatically.

If you're talking about a theist, Christian if you insist, who both thinks believing in God is an automatic ticket to heaven, and that said God is liable to simply forgive a lifetime of vice on a quick deathbed conversion, then I would agree - that hypothetical person, if they were so genuinely aloof as to think they would never be accountable for sins, would be less brave than an atheist. But this is comparing someone who believes only rewards are coming their way, versus someone who believes in none. I think this would be a generalization that considers shallow Christians with an entitlement complex, rather than ones who may have actually read the Bible, or at least the 10 Commandments, and realize it's not all milk and honey automatically.
Huh, well, how about you tell that to every christian I have ever met.

The whole deal is that once you accept Jesus into your heart, you get put in the book of life or what have you and then you go to heaven.

The catholics have purgatory beforehand, but if you're a true believer then hey, you're set.

Also, I wasn't just referrign to deathbed conversions.

And to me the thought of oblivion is the most terrifying thought there is, even more so than the thought of going to hell.

Huh, well, how about you tell that to every christian I have ever met.

The whole deal is that once you accept Jesus into your heart, you get put in the book of life or what have you and then you go to heaven.

The catholics have purgatory beforehand, but if you're a true believer then hey, you're set.

Also, I wasn't just referrign to deathbed conversions.

And to me the thought of oblivion is the most terrifying thought there is, even more so than the thought of going to hell.

Maybe we're just used to different traditions of Christianity.. where I'm from was a largely Eastern Orthodox neighborhood, with maybe a quarter Roman and a quarter Protestant.. most that I knew never considered their soul's salvation a guarantee in any sense, and were often pained terribly by their moral failings. My friend's father died terribly.

As for oblivion, it may be terrifying, but neither an Atheist nor a Theist, if correct, will be around to experience it. ;) As a dying patient in hospice care once said, "my condition is hopeless, but not serious." I think both liberal Christians and Atheists may reach this conclusion of death, but those who see death as ultimate judgement, at least in my experience, are prone to great anxiety.

And to me the thought of oblivion is the most terrifying thought there is, even more so than the thought of going to hell.

Weird. Why is that? It's the absence of being. You're obviously not going to be around for it. I can see fearing the actual act of dying, with the attendant pain and all, but afterwards... I don't know. I don't get it. There's literally -nothing- to be afraid of, right?

If you die and there is nothing then you don't need to worry about anything. You just aren't. That isn't so bad. You can't suffer if you no longer exist.

Weird. Why is that? It's the absence of being. You're obviously not going to be around for it. I can see fearing the actual act of dying, with the attendant pain and all, but afterwards... I don't know. I don't get it. There's literally -nothing- to be afraid of, right?
It's the thought of non-existance.

That this me will blink out of being upon death. It's not pain leading up to death that scares me. It is exactly non-existance that does. I tink dying would be interesting. A truly once in a lifetime experience that I hope not to experience for some time.

If you die and there is nothing then you don't need to worry about anything. You just aren't. That isn't so bad. You can't suffer if you no longer exist.
I would rather suffer than not exist.

I wasn't aware this was 'Beat up on Religion Day'. :rolleyes:

I find it incredibly ironic that the athiest left so frequently accuses those on the 'religious right' of 'being intolerant', in particular of other religions. It has been my experience that most frequently it is the athiests who are the 'intolerant' ones.

What do you care, you'll be dead. Death isn't some romantic thing people, its the ending of human life. That's not good not matter what context you put it in, deserving, undeserving, religious, non-religious.
Bah. At my funeral, it will be closed casket and have a thing in a church before the burial. When everyone's all sad, the lights will go off. And then my body will swing down from the ceilling and BAM! Techno music.

I'm sorry your dad died still deceived by the humanistic belief that mankind is the ultimate power in the universe. He believes in God now.
now THAT is the first sensible thing i've heard all day. better believe it ppl. and, even tho i hate to use this argument, the number of atheists here depresses me, so i'm gonna say that it makes sense to believe in God and live a christian life, because if atheism doesn't offer any reward, and christianity does, doesn't it make sense to shoot for the reward?

And to me the thought of oblivion is the most terrifying thought there is, even more so than the thought of going to hell.


Why look at it as "oblivion" or some other negative. I prefer to think of it as the longest nap I'll ever take. And I REALLY like my naps.

You see Chev, due to Christian support of the likes of George Bush, this is the sort of attitde you are up against.
c, the christians in the US just support bush cuz he says he's a christian(i hope). i'm so glad i'm canadian....

now THAT is the first sensible thing i've heard all day. better believe it ppl. and, even tho i hate to use this argument, the number of atheists here depresses me, so i'm gonna say that it makes sense to believe in God and live a christian life, because if atheism doesn't offer any reward, and christianity does, doesn't it make sense to shoot for the reward?
You do realize there are more religions out there than just christianity, right?

The number of people like you depresses me.

now THAT is the first sensible thing i've heard all day. better believe it ppl. and, even tho i hate to use this argument, the number of atheists here depresses me, so i'm gonna say that it makes sense to believe in God and live a christian life, because if atheism doesn't offer any reward, and christianity does, doesn't it make sense to shoot for the reward?

Why should it be about rewards and punishments at all? I think it's folley to live in shame, denying your needs/wants/desires/urges (within certain reason of course... no bullshit analogies about stealing cars or some shit) just to get a cool door prize after you're dead. What's the point in that? Life is too long to live in boredom, and too short to deny experience.

I wasn't aware this was 'Beat up on Religion Day'. :rolleyes:

I find it incredibly ironic that the athiest left so frequently accuses those on the 'religious right' of 'being intolerant', in particular of other religions. It has been my experience that most frequently it is the athiests who are the 'intolerant' ones.
It has been my experience that the atheists start going after the christians after the christians start to tell them they're going to hell.

One thing I have noticed running through some of these threads is a certain degree of contempt for the religious. I understand that men who lived and died athiests had some sort of integrity that led them to stick to their beliefs and I do respect athiests who behave as decent people with no hope of reward for their actions. However, there is something to be said for those men and women who through their intellect come to faith and live it to the greatest extent suffering even martyrdom for their beliefs. How many athiests are willing to die for their beliefs? (but then again, if they don't believe in an afterlife, what's the point in martyrdom) and food for thought: "if there were no God, there would be no athiests"- G.K. Chesterton

It has been my experience that the atheists start going after the christians after the christians start to tell them they're going to hell.

That's been my experience as well. But the christians have this persecution complex that they just can't seem to shake.

Therapy. Lots and lots of therapy.

I really can't see Nietche going to heaven. He might have been a good writer, and intelligent enough to be athiest, but he was also a bit crazy.

On Topic:
Your father was admirable. There is no one more contemptable than a death bed convert. Sticking to your guns, even in such a depressing and fear frought time as death is a sign of true strength.

Contrary to common beleif atheism is more fulfilling than a religious outlook. Rather than living for some reward and denying happiness of ourselves and others in the name of our imaginary friends we live for the sake of living, beleive in humanity, and strive to end suffering.

After all "What good is something if you don't get it until you die?" (Bad Religion; "The Downfall of Man (Live Again")
i'm sorry, but u sound alot like one of them idiots who never actually finds out wut religion is. ur outlook is shockingly similar to the Japanese belief that killing oneself showed more honor and bravery than living to be torchered for information, wasting the time of POW camp guards, and attempting escape to fight again....and i'm sorry, but we don't deny ourselves happiness or our friends' happiness either, and our "friends" (God, i presume) are NOT imaginary. atheists actually live for the sake of dying, becaus that's wut u will eventually do, but WE live for the sake of living forever. we refuse to but out of your lives because part of our mission is to save u. we take the defensive stance we do because instead of saying "thank you" and accepting eternal life, like any NORMAL person would do, u guys insist on calling us crazy and stupid

That's been my experience as well. But the christians have this persecution complex that they just can't seem to shake.

Therapy. Lots and lots of therapy.
Yes, it's really sad when someone makes a thread celebrating the fact that their father remained true to his beliefs even at his deathbed and then people come on and say "Well, the thing is, he was wrong." and then act like people are persecuting them when they react to that.

and food for thought: "if there were no God, there would be no athiests"- G.K. Chesterton

If by that quote, this person is saying that if someone had not thought up the concept of god, then there would be no one who didn't believe in him, then I see the point. But, that's all I'm really getting out of it.

now THAT is the first sensible thing i've heard all day. better believe it ppl. and, even tho i hate to use this argument, the number of atheists here depresses me, so i'm gonna say that it makes sense to believe in God and live a christian life, because if atheism doesn't offer any reward, and christianity does, doesn't it make sense to shoot for the reward?

It's better to place the whole of your hopes and dreams upon an at best questionable attempt at explaining the world by primitive man? I think it is much better to live in disbeleif out of realism than to convert out of a need to be rewarded. If I did beleive I would not want to be rewarded for it. I don't, and if I am punished for it, so be it, because asking me to beleive in something with less than no supporting evidence is irrational, insane, and unfair and as far as I'm concerned, they don't deserve my respect, let alone my worship.

It's kind of depressing to me that a supposedly adult woman like yourself is a militant atheist who tries to "deconvert" Christians by informing them that their beliefs are not backed by scientific evidence. You are missing the point of religious faith entirely. I am an 18-year-old atheist and I figured that out years ago.

You militant, anti-religious atheists give us all a bad name.

i'd also like to add that our faith actually IS backed by scientific evidence. just most of u never actually LOOK for any before u say it doesn't exist.

i'd also like to add that our faith actually IS backed by scientific evidence. just most of u never actually LOOK for any before u say it doesn't exist.

Oh really? Where?

what makes you think that? what if they are in heaven and there is no hell in a literal sense of the word. god forgives all and i believe if you truly repent you will, EVENTUALLT get in to 'Heaven'
that's a good point. unfortunately, there is a little catch in that u must repent BEFORE u die(sry bout ur dad....even tho u think ther is no need), which is why we call it faith, because that's just before u actually get any proof.

i'm sorry, but u sound alot like one of them idiots who never actually finds out wut religion is.

I'm sorry, but you appear to be one of those idiots who has never learned to spell.

Seriously, how is what you said here not flaming?

ur outlook is shockingly similar to the Japanese belief that killing oneself showed more honor and bravery than living to be torchered for information, wasting the time of POW camp guards, and attempting escape to fight again....and i'm sorry, but we don't deny ourselves happiness or our friends' happiness either, and our "friends" (God, i presume) are NOT imaginary. atheists actually live for the sake of dying, becaus that's wut u will eventually do, but WE live for the sake of living forever. we refuse to but out of your lives because part of our mission is to save u. we take the defensive stance we do because instead of saying "thank you" and accepting eternal life, like any NORMAL person would do, u guys insist on calling us crazy and stupid
lol.

Here, while you accuse someone else of idiocy for not understanding religion, you show your own ignorance of your fellow humans. How's this: stop preaching and start listening. Atheists are nothing as you have depicted them and quite frankly, you appear to be quite the intolerant snob who considers himself to have all the answers when you have demonstrated suck a lack of basic knowledge in this subject area that it's laughable.

i'd also like to add that our faith actually IS backed by scientific evidence. just most of u never actually LOOK for any before u say it doesn't exist.

I'd really appreciate a couple of links too, to like legitamate scientific sites. No "Watchtower online" or other obvious christian funded research papers please...

i'd also like to add that our faith actually IS backed by scientific evidence. just most of u never actually LOOK for any before u say it doesn't exist.
First off, as a bit of a scientist myself, I'm curious about this supposed evidence. Please, feel free to present it. Furthermore, there seems to be a contracition between this statement and your next one:

that's a good point. unfortunately, there is a little catch in that u must repent BEFORE u die(sry bout ur dad....even tho u think ther is no need), which is why we call it faith, because that's just before u actually get any proof.

So which is it? Is there proof or isn't there?

Huh, well, how about you tell that to every christian I have ever met.

The whole deal is that once you accept Jesus into your heart, you get put in the book of life or what have you and then you go to heaven.

The catholics have purgatory beforehand, but if you're a true believer then hey, you're set.

Also, I wasn't just referrign to deathbed conversions.

And to me the thought of oblivion is the most terrifying thought there is, even more so than the thought of going to hell.
not actually. u must accept jesus and actually try to do good, and ask for forgivenes. the catholics are idiots, dont believe anything they say. and how can the thot of not feeling or thinking, just not being, be more scary than the thot of infinite and ultimate suffering. and WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHO'S BRAVER!? if ur scared of oblivion, then DON'T GO THERE!

I wasn't aware this was 'Beat up on Religion Day'. :rolleyes:

I find it incredibly ironic that the athiest left so frequently accuses those on the 'religious right' of 'being intolerant', in particular of other religions. It has been my experience that most frequently it is the athiests who are the 'intolerant' ones.
good point. unfortunately for us christians, it seems that every day is beat up religion day on these forums. and i can just see some1 saying "if u don't like it, go to a christian only forum." what would be the point of that? u can't save any1 if they're already saved.

not actually. u must accept jesus and actually try to do good, and ask for forgivenes. the catholics are idiots, dont believe anything they say. and how can the thot of not feeling or thinking, just not being, be more scary than the thot of infinite and ultimate suffering. and WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHO'S BRAVER!? if ur scared of oblivion, then DON'T GO THERE!

This is what really gets me about this whole debate. people who profess faith in the SAME GOD, can't even agree among each other. And, moreover they freely take to rabidly insulting each other.

And they call atheists idiots...

not actually. u must accept jesus and actually try to do good, and ask for forgivenes.
or you can genuninely repent and seek forgiveness on the death bed... or at your 60th birthday... after a lifetime of sin... it's not hard to do only good when you're old and can't do anything, now is it?

the catholics are idiots,
yes, everyone but you is an idiot. Thank you I seem to be getting your point.

and how can the thot of not feeling or thinking, just not being, be more scary than the thot of infinite and ultimate suffering. and WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHO'S BRAVER!? if ur scared of oblivion, then DON'T GO THERE!
Because at least in eternal torture, there is a me to torture.

And I'm not so sure there's an option for avoiding oblivion. It's rather possible that's where we all end up. Going to sleep and never waking up. No more thought, no more dreams. Nothing.

i'm sorry, but u sound alot like one of them idiots who never actually finds out wut religion is. ur outlook is shockingly similar to the Japanese belief that killing oneself showed more honor and bravery than living to be torchered for information, wasting the time of POW camp guards, and attempting escape to fight again....and i'm sorry, but we don't deny ourselves happiness or our friends' happiness either, and our "friends" (God, i presume) are NOT imaginary. atheists actually live for the sake of dying, becaus that's wut u will eventually do, but WE live for the sake of living forever. we refuse to but out of your lives because part of our mission is to save u. we take the defensive stance we do because instead of saying "thank you" and accepting eternal life, like any NORMAL person would do, u guys insist on calling us crazy and stupid

I don't beleive that killing yourself is honorable, and I hope to never have to choose between betraying my friends and family or giving up my life for them. I know which I would choose, and it wouldn't be betrayal. Any man can be broken, risking innocent lives in the name of some distant hope is unnacceptable. That is assuming I know anything worth worrying about giving up when tortured. I don't live to die. I live to enjoy the short life I do have to the fullest. Religion has been the source of manipulation, murder, genocide, and other horors for as long as man has had the mistaken concept of faith.

As to butting out, well I hope that some day the lot of you will face the facts that every attempt to "save" us just annoys us even more. I don't want to be "saved", I don't need to be brainwashed, and I don't need your god. I am a normal person, I refuse to accept an eternal life that won't ever happen. I will not thank a diety that has no supporting evidence. The only religious people I think are crazy and stupid are the ones who go around forcing their faith off on everyone else, and refuse to butt out when told to do so.

good point. unfortunately for us christians, it seems that every day is beat up religion day on these forums. and i can just see some1 saying "if u don't like it, go to a christian only forum." what would be the point of that? u can't save any1 if they're already saved.
See, this is where the problem lies. People don't come here to be "saved" or converted or have your religious beliefs forced down their throats.

Atheists generally don't attack christians until christians start trying to convert atheists. I'm an agnostic, I usually jump in on whichever side is being least stupid and here, I rarely have to jump in to defend a christian.

now THAT is the first sensible thing i've heard all day. better believe it ppl. and, even tho i hate to use this argument, the number of atheists here depresses me, so i'm gonna say that it makes sense to believe in God and live a christian life, because if atheism doesn't offer any reward, and christianity does, doesn't it make sense to shoot for the reward?

Has it ever occurred to you that we don't see reality as something we can, or should, or would ever want to, pick and choose? If there's no "reward", then there isn't. If there's no santa claus, there isn't. If we don't know, we don't know. It's not up to us to "shoot" for one or the other. When I first encountered people who thought like you, I found them, as I still do, utterly beyond comprehension. I don't mean that as an insult, just a fact -- our thought processes are different on a basic, fundamental level.

Generally, I find these atheist-religious discussions a waste of time. The psychology can be interesting, though. It's amazing to see how -- what I can only assume is upbringing -- can prevent people from ever being capable of understanding each other, to say nothing of agreeing.

I don't beleive that killing yourself is honorable, and I hope to never have to choose between betraying my friends and family or giving up my life for them. I know which I would choose, and it wouldn't be betrayal. Any man can be broken, risking innocent lives in the name of some distant hope is unnacceptable. That is assuming I know anything worth worrying about giving up when tortured. I don't live to die. I live to enjoy the short life I do have to the fullest. Religion has been the source of manipulation, murder, genocide, and other horors for as long as man has had the mistaken concept of faith.

As to butting out, well I hope that some day the lot of you will face the facts that every attempt to "save" us just annoys us even more. I don't want to be "saved", I don't need to be brainwashed, and I don't need your god. I am a normal person, I refuse to accept an eternal life that won't ever happen. I will not thank a diety that has no supporting evidence. The only religious people I think are crazy and stupid are the ones who go around forcing their faith off on everyone else, and refuse to butt out when told to do so.
it makes me very sad to here u talk like that. in a while, many years probably, u will realize that God exists, and that u need Him, and that He was actually supported by evidence....but by then it will be too late...

Because at least in eternal torture, there is a me to torture.

Why is existence that important to you? What is it about non-existence that "terrifies" you? Does it bother you that you have not always existed, that there was once a time when there was no "you"?

it makes me very sad to here u talk like that. in a while, many years probably, u will realize that God exists, and that u need Him, and that He was actually supported by evidence....but by then it will be too late...
Where is this evidence? You keep talking about it... if it's so convincing, then let it out... come on.. you want to "save" us don't you? lol.

How's this: can I save you from your terrible spelling? It's rather aggravating.

it makes me very sad to here u talk like that. in a while, many years probably, u will realize that God exists, and that u need Him, and that He was actually supported by evidence....but by then it will be too late...

Why do I need him? Because someone needs to be grinning and having a good ol time while the masses of humanity suffer?

Don't go righteous on me, I have no patience for it. Either back up your claims of "support" or admit defeat and back down. Faith doesn't need proof does it?

it makes me very sad to here u talk like that. in a while, many years probably, u will realize that God exists, and that u need Him, and that He was actually supported by evidence....but by then it will be too late...

Why won't you put up some of this evidence you claim to know of? Just wondering. I've been eagerly waiting, but you keep posting stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the evidence you say is out there.

Personally I would prefer if you brought it to me, since I'm not one to go on google searches for god stuff. I wouldn't even know how to word the search in order to find anything useful.

Still waiting...

Therapy. Lots and lots of therapy.
Thank you. That is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Why is existence that important to you? What is it about non-existence that "terrifies" you? Does it bother you that you have not always existed, that there was once a time when there was no "you"?
I don't know what scares me about it.

At this point, I enjoy soaking up every experience there is... Perhaps it's the thought of all those experiences and memories and thoughts and insights being wiped out... Perhaps it's the thought of never getting to experience anything ever again that scares me... I'm not sure.

and then people come on and say "Well, the thing is, he was wrong."
When did I ever say that?

Thank you. That is EXACTLY what I am talking about.
You started it.

When did I ever say that?
See the second page. You didn't say it, someone else did. The world does not revolve around you.

You started it.
I don't recall ever saying that athiests are, as a group, mentally unbalanced.

See the second page. You didn't say it, someone else did. The world does not revolve around you.
I don't care what anyone else said. Deal with me based on MY actions and MY words.

i believe god exists. he is one of the many voices that float around in my brain...
murderous voice says: im going to find you kill you and RAPE YOUR DEAD BODY :) :sniper:
nice voice replies: Just be home for supper!
God voice says:I shall smite you into oblivion. Death awaits you all!
murderous voice says: O crap....
murderous voice dies a long, extremely painful and lonely death.
but he died an atheist. Praise him.

I don't recall ever saying that athiests are, as a group, mentally unbalanced.
You came on here screaming persecution even though it was christians who started the insults on here. The atheists and well, some christians were congratulating the man for sticking to his guns and then some other christians came along and went off about how he was wrong and in hell and believed now and this and that. You failed to read the entire thread and then blamed all atheists for persecuting all chrsitians all the time.

You may not have called atheists mentally unbalanced, but you did attack them and insult them with baseless accusations.

I don't care what anyone else said. Deal with me based on MY actions and MY words.
I was telling you why any insults on religion got started on this thread.

Honestly, how much attention do you pay to what you read?

Also, in the post you quoted, I wasn't talking to or about you, thank you very much for insulting me out of your paranoia. I wonder where this persecution complex comes from? You're seeing personal attacks everywhere.

it is very late and i am tired. i am not responsible for my crazed rambilngs
murderous voice says:SAY ONE WORD ABOUT MY POST I WILL RAPE YOUR DEAD BODY. TWICE.
nice voice replies:Be sure to wear protection!
God voice says:I am tired. Goodnight.

Battlestar, what you have to realize is that these forums serve as a warground for many of us, a chance to express our outrage without the consequences it has in real life (Getting involved in religious debate at school or work is a bad thing, and losing your job or getting expelled isn't an option for most of us.).
While the religious folks on this board might not have started this argument per say, religion and the religious are the cause for our argements. We don't have any spiritual demands of non-retaliation.

You came on here screaming persecution even though it was christians who started the insults on here. The atheists and well, some christians were congratulating the man for sticking to his guns and then some other christians came along and went off about how he was wrong and in hell and believed now and this and that. You failed to read the entire thread and then blamed all atheists for persecuting all chrsitians all the time.

You may not have called atheists mentally unbalanced, but you did attack them and insult them with baseless accusations.

I'm afraid I have to second that.

You came on here screaming persecution even though it was christians who started the insults on here.

I did nothing of the sort.

You failed to read the entire thread and then blamed all atheists for persecuting all chrsitians all the time.

No, I did not. I have many athiest (as well as Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.) friends. I merely pointed out a curious observation. Nowhere did I suggest that all athiests are intolerent bigots.


You may not have called atheists mentally unbalanced, but you did attack them and insult them with baseless accusations.
I did nothing of the sort.

Battlestar, what you have to realize is that these forums serve as a warground for many of us, a chance to express our outrage without the consequences it has in real life (Getting involved in religious debate at school or work is a bad thing, and losing your job or getting expelled isn't an option for most of us.).
While the religious folks on this board might not have started this argument per say, religion and the religious are the cause for our argements. We don't have any spiritual demands of non-retaliation.
So you come here to beat up on religion and religiously observant people?

How lovely, enlightened and tolerant.

I have many athiest (as well as Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.) friends.

Ahh yes, the old "Mark Furman" tactic. I've used it too, no shame in it...

I did nothing of the sort.
No, of course you didn't start the insults. Your first post in this thread was long after the first stone was cast and was complaining about the persecution of all christians even though it was christians who started it.

No, I did not. I have many athiest (as well as Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.) friends. I merely pointed out a curious observation. Nowhere did I suggest that all athiests are intolerent bigots.
Oh, no, just the atheists on this forum, right? This isn't the first thread you've come in and accused atheists of attacking christians on either. You seem to do this fairly often.

I did nothing of the sort.
You basically accused atheists of constantly battling christianity and being intolerant and hypotcirical for calling christians intolerant of atheism. You based this on a debate that was going on between chrstians and atheists that christians started by saying that without god, life must be pointless and then that this person's dad was wrong. I'll bet that you didn't read that, you read the first post and then the last couple pages when the blows were being exchanged and assumed that the atheists started it.

Well, brother, take the log out of your own eye.

So you come here to beat up on religion and religiously observant people?

How lovely, enlightened and tolerant.

Eh... Never claimed to be. I am so fed up with religion, especially the dominant religion in America (which claims to be christianity, but follows none of its tenants) that most of my tolerance has gone straight out the window. I am sick and tired of all the pain, suffering, bigotry, anger, and evil caused by religion.

So you come here to beat up on religion and religiously observant people?

How lovely, enlightened and tolerant.

Yes, in very much the same way that you seem to enjoy beating up on the non-religious. Turnabout's fair play, don't be jealous.

Yes, in very much the same way that you seem to enjoy beating up on the non-religious.
I am doing nothing of that sort. Frankly, I have better uses for my time.

(I could, of course, make a comment about the sad state of your life and the lives of athiests like you, who apparantly don't have better uses for their time. I, however, will refrain from doing so.)

(which claims to be christianity, but follows none of its tenants)
I find it curious that you consider yourself a more knowledgeable expert on Christian ethics than practicioners of that religion.

Ahh yes, the old "Mark Furman" tactic. I've used it too, no shame in it...
It is the truth. You may accept it as such, or you may not; however, I will spend no further time on the topic.

I am doing nothing of that sort. Frankly, I have better uses for my time.

(I could, of course, make a comment about the sad state of your life and the lives of athiests like you, who apparantly don't have better uses for their time. I, however, will refrain from doing so.)
You are the one who needs to reevaluate what you're doing with your time. Your post count is higher than Molnervia's, after all.

complaining about the persecution of all christians

...no, actually it wasn't. I made no universal statement on that subject.


Oh, no, just the atheists on this forum, right?

On this board, whom I have met personally, others...however, I never suggested that my statement applied to all athiests, or even all athiests on this forum. Why are you being so defensive and hostile?


This isn't the first thread you've come in and accused atheists of attacking christians on either. You seem to do this fairly often.

And yet the truth of my observation cannot be denied with any intellectual honesty.


You basically accused atheists of constantly battling christianity and being intolerant and hypotcirical for calling christians intolerant of atheism. You based this on a debate that was going on between chrstians and atheists that christians started by saying that without god, life must be pointless and then that this person's dad was wrong. I'll bet that you didn't read that, you read the first post and then the last couple pages when the blows were being exchanged and assumed that the atheists started it.

You are wrong on all counts. I was not talking about athiests in this thread only (or necessarially all athiests in this thread. Nor was I talking about all athiests in general. I merely made the observation that it has been my personal observation, based on my interactions with athiests in a number of venues.

I have many friends and friendly aquaintainces who happen to be athiests. I do not spend my time condemning them for their unbelief, and they respect my relgious conviction. We have even had intelligent discussion regarding the Bible, and never did they label it 'fiction', 'contradictory', 'propganda', or anything of the like.

before someone calls me on my post count (i'm going to bed and won't be here to deal with it) 1. i've been here for two years 2. i'm not an atheist, so saying that atheists waste their time here has nothing to do with me. 3. i come here because i procrastinate and when i do work i need to do something to unwind, sometimes i don't have anything to read and i find this to be a most amusing place to unwind after a long day.

before someone calls me on my post count (i'm going to bed and won't be here to deal with it) 1. i've been here for two years 2. i'm not an atheist, so saying that atheists waste their time here has nothing to do with me. 3. i come here because i procrastinate and when i do work i need to do something to unwind, sometimes i don't have anything to read and i find this to be a most amusing place to unwind after a long day.Congratulations! You started the 9th page!

You are wrong on all counts. I was not talking about athiests in this thread only (or necessarially all athiests in this thread. Nor was I talking about all athiests in general. I merely made the observation that it has been my personal observation, based on my interactions with athiests in a number of venues.

I have many friends and friendly aquaintainces who happen to be athiests. I do not spend my time condemning them for their unbelief, and they respect my relgious conviction. We have even had intelligent discussion regarding the Bible, and never did they label it 'fiction', 'contradictory', 'propganda', or anything of the like.
i'm tired so i'm onyl going to deal with this one.

I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THINGS YOU WERE DOING!

You said people were persecuting christians on this thread, I pointed out that the chrsitians started it. I didn't say that you started it. I said that some other people who share the same religion as you did. End of story. Read the stupid posts.

Now I'm going to bed.

Congratulations! You started the 9th page!
No I didn't, I had the second post on the 9th page.

No I didn't, I had the second post on the 9th page.On my computer it has your post at the top.

You said people were persecuting christians in this thread, .
No, I didn't. I was expressing an observation I have made in general, not from this thread in particular.

... a few years ago, 1996, but he didn't plead to a skyborne imaginary deity for his salvation. My Dad died a socialist, an atheist, and not even on his death bed did he recant.

I'm proud of him, and I'd like to go out the same way.

You seem to be heading in that direction quite nicely.

I am doing nothing of that sort. Frankly, I have better uses for my time.

(I could, of course, make a comment about the sad state of your life and the lives of athiests like you, who apparantly don't have better uses for their time. I, however, will refrain from doing so.)

You know,"not" saying that in such a fashion is the exact same thing as saying it. If I said, "No offense, but you're a total ass", would that not be just as offensive? Me saying, "I could say you're a complete and utter imbecile, but I won't" IS saying it.

And frankly, to anyone claiming the Christians in this thread "started it," I say to you that the original post was a direct and deliberate assault on Christian beliefs, and it was a huge taunt. What purpose could posting about the lack of religious beliefs of a person who died nine years ago, couched in unncessarially insulting language, serve but to stir up commotion?

You know,"not" saying that in such a fashion is the exact same thing as saying it. If I said, "No offense, but you're a total ass", would that not be just as offensive? Me saying, "I could say you're a complete and utter imbecile, but I won't" IS saying it.
You are, of course, free to interpret it however you like. I certainly won't stand in your way.

And frankly, to anyone claiming the Christians in this thread "started it," I say to you that the original post was a direct and deliberate assault on Christian beliefs, and it was a huge taunt. What purpose could posting about the lack of religious beliefs of a person who died nine years ago, couched in unncessarially insulting language, serve but to stir up commotion?

It could be a form of emotional release.

It could be a form of emotional release.
I doubt many people would consider it acceptable if I "released emotion" by swearing up and down about the genetic and mental deficiencies of blacks and Jews.

I doubt many people would consider it acceptable if I "released emotion" by swearing up and down about the genetic and mental deficiencies of blacks and Jews.

What does acceptability have to do with it? You asked a question about the possible purpose of the thread author's post, aside from stirring up commotion. I was simply addressing that question.

See, this is where the problem lies. People don't come here to be "saved" or converted or have your religious beliefs forced down their throats.

Atheists generally don't attack christians until christians start trying to convert atheists. I'm an agnostic, I usually jump in on whichever side is being least stupid and here, I rarely have to jump in to defend a christian.


The problem here is: How can someone "force religion down your throat" here on the internet? If you don't like it, don't read it.

Also in real life Christians aren't forcing you to convert either. When was the last time you were bound and tortured till you agreed to convert? If someone says something that you don't like, just walk away. It really isn't that hard to do. Unless you are legless like me.

You are, of course, free to interpret it however you like. I certainly won't stand in your way.

Mmm... I love the smell of passive-agressiveness in the morning. Oh wait, it's 6pm. Nevermind.

(first one to point out the inherent hypocrisy gets a cookie!)

Strangely enough, I have been threatened by christians who learned I was an atheist. Something to the effect that they'd break a few bones until I was ready to pray for salvation. My reply that more than one of them would find out if there was an afterlife if they tried must have been an effective deterrant. Well, that and saying hi to the constable walking towards us.

Mmm... I love the smell of passive-agressiveness in the morning. Oh wait, it's 6pm. Nevermind.

(first one to point out the inherent hypocrisy gets a cookie!)

Dude, it's 2:30am. What's wrong with you?

:D

honourable death

Glad to hear it. My family has bragged about the few free thinkers they knew recanting for last minute salvation.
Attention atheists: quit claiming the title of 'free thinkers.' Frankly, because you're mostly all conformists that can't think for themselves and accept the idea of a higher being because of responsibility and insecurity issues in life. Of course there are religious people who are the same way, but as are most atheists.
So knock off. It makes you look really stupid.

i like pizza...

Attention atheists: quit claiming the title of 'free thinkers.' Frankly, because you're mostly all conformists that can't think for themselves and accept the idea of a higher being because of responsibility and insecurity issues in life. Of course there are religious people who are the same way, but as are most atheists.
So knock off. It makes you look really stupid.

I agree that most atheists are not free thinkers, but I don't believe that responsibility and insecurity issues are really the causes of atheism.

Dude, it's 2:30am. What's wrong with you?

:D

*looks outside*

wait.

wait.

No.

You're sillay :p

This has nothing to do with Bush. I'm canadian...
Well, not Bush in particular. Really the whole Puritan, mean-spirited "Christian Right" movement.

Strangely enough, I have been threatened by christians who learned I was an atheist. Something to the effect that they'd break a few bones until I was ready to pray for salvation. My reply that more than one of them would find out if there was an afterlife if they tried must have been an effective deterrant. Well, that and saying hi to the constable walking towards us.

My BS sensors are buzzing like you wouldn't believe.

Attention atheists: quit claiming the title of 'free thinkers.' Frankly, because you're mostly all conformists that can't think for themselves and accept the idea of a higher being because of responsibility and insecurity issues in life. Of course there are religious people who are the same way, but as are most atheists.
So knock off. It makes you look really stupid.

Eh, freethinkers is a bit of a misnomer. I don't "think without restriction" I choose to let my thoughts and opinions be influenced by Observable Natural Laws. So yes, Atheism is conformism, however, so is every other style of life.

The second statement that Athiesm is caused by lack of responsibility and insecurity is sheeer arrogance. Athiesm is caused by disbeleif in gods, and so having "responsibility issues" is hard to claim, seeing as how we don't beleive in a god that will hold us responsible. That would be like saying: Religious practice is caused by an inability to apply reason and skillfull manipulation by power-hungry lunatics. It's not true. Don't generalize. Yes there are Athiests who deny god out of fear of consequences, but they aren't all, or even most, of us.

Every thread like this ends up in Atheists and Christians bashing each other with ridiculous generalizations and a lack of evidences on both sides.
I don't understand actually why there are so many faith-threads. If one thread alone doesn't make sense, why must there be 20+ of them?

I find it incredibly ironic that the athiest left so frequently accuses those on the 'religious right' of 'being intolerant', in particular of other religions. It has been my experience that most frequently it is the athiests who are the 'intolerant' ones.
Not all atheists are leftists. Atheists are found everywhere on the political spectrum.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.
"You're born and you're red,
You're dead and you're blue
You're green at 19
And grey at 22."
-"Dishonest Don pt. II", Les Savy Fav

I'm glad to see that there are people that stick to their beliefs, even in the face of death.

I may ask, why have so many of you christians problems with spelling Atheism correctly? It's "Atheism", not "Athiesm".

Because at least in eternal torture, there is a me to torture.

And I'm not so sure there's an option for avoiding oblivion. It's rather possible that's where we all end up. Going to sleep and never waking up. No more thought, no more dreams. Nothing.
do you find the oblivion of the first ...5 billion years of the universe that didnt include you also terrifying?

you have already "experienced" non existance. it occurred in the time before you were born. in the time after you die, it is the same. i can see feeling sad or disappointed that you dont get to know what happens next but what can be terrifying about it?

to whoever suggested that we should shoot for the reward...why would i try for a reward that doesnt exist? i didnt "choose" atheism because it gave me the best deal. if i wanted the best deal, id go with buddhism because i would get many many lives until i finally got it right and passed out of the cycle of death and rebirth.

i am an atheist because the reward doesnt exist. its a lie thought up and propagated by those who want control over my life. i choose not to live my life for a lie. i could pretend but that doesnt make much sense to me. i am "stuck" with reality. there IS no heavenly father looking out for me. there IS no comfy home in the sky for eternity. there is only what we have here and now and no pretense or delusion can change it.

What's with the weird connection between socialism and atheism? I've met hundreds of socialist leaning people in my life and only about 5-10 have been religious too.

Well, I'm not sure, but I'm a socialist Christian. I don't believe in gay marriage or abortion, and I don't like corporations.

What's with the weird connection between socialism and atheism? I've met hundreds of socialist leaning people in my life and only about 5-10 have been religious too.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - Karl Marx

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - Karl Marx
The whole quotation is:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the masses."

Yeah, well, what about the Canadian named Tommy Douglas? He was a Christian socialist who did much for the nation of Canada.

The whole quotation is:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the masses."

Thank you for correcting me, I only remembered the last part. The whole thing is more a connection between marxism and atheism, though, not between socialism and atheism.

And frankly, to anyone claiming the Christians in this thread "started it," I say to you that the original post was a direct and deliberate assault on Christian beliefs, and it was a huge taunt. What purpose could posting about the lack of religious beliefs of a person who died nine years ago, couched in unncessarially insulting language, serve but to stir up commotion?
No it wasn't.

The original post was clearly someone boasting about their father. About how he stuck by his beliefs even in a time when many people give them up. The only christian belief it mocked was the chrsitian belief that all atheists recant on their deathbed and are terrible cowards.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.

Oh no I'm not. Cremation is what I'm after. Those worms ain't getting me!

I may ask, why have so many of you christians problems with spelling Atheism correctly? It's "Atheism", not "Athiesm".

Well, see, when they call us 'athiests', it's because they're actually accusing us of being 'the most athi'

Now, if only one of them would explain what 'athi' is, the debate could continue in a non-circular manner.

Now, if only one of them would explain what 'athi' is, the debate could continue in a non-circular manner.
Athi is The Australian Tourism & Hospitality Index (http://www.athi.co.uk/).

I guess they think we're tourists in Australia?
:confused:

Well I think that these arguments are ultimately pointless, seeing as no amount of arguing is going to change someone's deeply held beliefs(be they Christian, Atheist, or other), but I might as well add my two cents, just for fun.

I think it's absolute BS saying that religion was designed to control people by their rulers. Thats like saying governments invented food to manipulate people. Oh yes, religion has been abused repeatedly by leaders of nations many times, the Church has been a valuable political tool to tighten their grip on the masses. But many atheist fail to take into account all the rebels religion has produced. Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Desmond Tutu were all motivated by religious beliefs. The first abolitionist were Quakers and Mennonites. In fact I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was fairly anti-establishment(think Sermon on the Mount). And let me tell you something, it sickens me to no end how stupid some Christians(at least those who claim that faith) tend to act, particuallary those of a more conservative bent.

Anyways, there's this little something called Pascal's wager. Blaise Pascal was this French mathematician/philosopher. His wager goes a little something like this:
# If I wager for and God is -- infinite gain;
# If I wager for and God is not -- no loss.
# If I wager against and God is -- infinite loss;
# If I wager against and God is not -- neither loss nor gain.
Now what that means is, if I believe in God, die, and He is real, than I go on to live in Heaven for all of eternity. If you don't believe in God, and He is real,
than you get to spend the rest of eternity in Hell. If I believe in God, and He isn't real, and you don't believe in God and he isn't real, than we're both in the same boat! Also, I've read several studies indicating that religious people live longer, are less depressed, and are happier than nonreligious people. So even if I am wrong I'll be happier and live longer than most atheists. ;) Ha, so what if it's an illusion? Now I'll admit, my faith is quite a bit more complicated than that. I'm motivated by love of the Divine, and not fear. And I suppose I'm a scholastic at heart, Faith and Reason compliment each other.

http://www.jhuger.com/pascal.mv
:rolleyes:

Pascal's wager is nonsense though, because even if you believe in God you might still believe the wrong religion.

The problem with Pascal's wager is that each religion claims that their god is the right one and that their followers are the only ones going to heaven. If Allah is the true god, all Christians will have lived their life believing the wrong god and are damned to hell anyway. If God is real, then all muslims will go to hell, etcetera. Just believing in god isn't enough, you have to believe in the right one to avoid the wrong hell. And how does one know which god is right? Both muslim and christian zealots seem to feel that their faith is true, but both are in conflict with eachother.

Anyways, there's this little something called Pascal's wager. Blaise Pascal was this French mathematician/philosopher. His wager goes a little something like this:
# If I wager for and God is -- infinite gain;
# If I wager for and God is not -- no loss.
# If I wager against and God is -- infinite loss;
# If I wager against and God is not -- neither loss nor gain.
Now what that means is, if I believe in God, die, and He is real, than I go on to live in Heaven for all of eternity. If you don't believe in God, and He is real,
than you get to spend the rest of eternity in Hell. If I believe in God, and He isn't real, and you don't believe in God and he isn't real, than we're both in the same boat! Also, I've read several studies indicating that religious people live longer, are less depressed, and are happier than nonreligious people. So even if I am wrong I'll be happier and live longer than most atheists. ;) Ha, so what if it's an illusion? Now I'll admit, my faith is quite a bit more complicated than that. I'm motivated by love of the Divine, and not fear. And I suppose I'm a scholastic at heart, Faith and Reason compliment each other.
NOt Pascal's Wager again!


Gah! That thing is so tired and easily debunked. It assumes that there are two options, athiest and chrisitian... Ah hell... here's a link, I'm lazy.
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html

I agree that most atheists are not free thinkers, but I don't believe that responsibility and insecurity issues are really the causes of atheism.

I think the reason many children don the cloak of "atheist" is because A) the stereotype of atheist is a well educated academic who knows so much more than the blind Christians around him and because B) they wish to rebel against their parents. Both of these are natural motivations for a child who wishes to feel better about his or her intelligence and who wishes to free himself or herself from the dependence upon mom and dad.

As adolescence continues and these--sort of "wannabe"--atheists grow up, they really examine the evidence for themselves and make their own decision: some remain atheist, and some change their minds. I fear that some grow up and never question their childhood views, merely stacking on and adopting catchphrases and sound bites they hear other atheists distribute--without actual critical consideration of what they beleive and feel.

That's my perception of the "atheist bloc" in children and young adults.

The same is often true for Christian children, as well (or so is my perception). The term "free-thinker" is entirely independent of what a person decides. It's determined by how a person decides it.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.

Actually the only thing we know for a fact is "You're born, you live, you die, you're body's worm food". if you'd stopped there, it'd be acceptable and correct. But, since you push your views of the after-life upon us it warrants correction. It is not scientific fact that there is no after-death experience. You say this yourself in this later post:


The scientific evidence would be against what you believe, but believe whatever gets you through the night/day/life. None of us want to believe this is it! But most evidence would certainly suggest. So, I suspect make of your life in the here and now what you can, because they may in fact be no tomorrow.

There is a large difference between this statement and your original. Your assertion of scientific "fact" backing you up is gone, and you know conjure a more specific, more accurate "scientific evidence" as your source. You concede by saying "[there] may in fact be no tomorrow" that it isn't certain that there is no afterlife.

The second post, though still too pushy, is a much more accurate post. Even the smartest people in the world will admit they don't know everything, and thus that they can't be 100% certain about God and the afterlife. A purely "rational thought" argument will give allowance for the possibility of God and afterlife--even if it relegates to highly unlikely fields. Only when you introduce your own "emotional" thought (not scientific evidence or true rational thought) does an "unlikely" God and afterlife turn into a "nonexistent" God and afterlife. Don't be so pushy, especially when it's based off your own biases and emotional thought.

Athi is The Australian Tourism & Hospitality Index (http://www.athi.co.uk/).

I guess they think we're tourists in Australia?
:confused:

I know I am!

('tourist' is the same as 'citizen', right? Right?)

Well, proof doesn't have to be "scientific" to be real. Science can't prove that this post exists. Science can't prove that NS exists. Yet, it must exist, because I have no life.

Well, proof doesn't have to be "scientific" to be real. Science can't prove that this post exists. Science can't prove that NS exists. Yet, it must exist, because I have no life.

(Lack of life) -> (creation of NS)?

You wouldn't happen to be Max Barry, by any chance?

:p

No, I'm not, just a very addicted NSer.

No, I'm not, just a very addicted NSer.

Heh, aren't we all? I'm pretty much convinced by this point that all the apparent, so-called 'newbies' are actually just puppets of the hard-core-ly addicted players...

But then, I'm also utterly batty, so don't mind me.

They oughta put a disclaimer on this game.

I may ask, why have so many of you christians problems with spelling Atheism correctly? It's "Atheism", not "Athiesm".
Why do so many of you atheists have trouble capitalizing 'Christian' and 'Bible'?

The only christian belief it mocked was the chrsitian belief that all atheists recant on their deathbed and are terrible cowards.
1. That is not a Christian belief.
2. "skyborne imaginary deity"

If Allah is the true god, all Christians will have lived their life believing the wrong god and are damned to hell anyway. If God is real, then all muslims will go to hell, etcetera.
'Allah' is merely the Arabic word for God. Arab-speaking Christians would refer call him 'Allah'. The fact of the matter is that Muslims believe that Christians (and Jews) as 'People of the Book' can indeed inherent the Kingdom of Heaven.

maybe i'm missing something, but what's so great about that?

nobody congradulates a baby for being born an atheist. and i don't see how it should matter if you die as one

and he was going to DIE anyway, so what good did it do?

~mr popular

1. That is not a Christian belief.
2. "skyborne imaginary deity"
1. It is something that many christian believe.
2. Yeah, in his opinion, it is an imaginary deity. I don't get all pissy when you guys call Jesus the son of god, do I?

Hey, Battlestar, I am STILL waiting for that "evidence". Can you please post something so I don't think you're full of shit?

1. It is something that many christian believe.

1. I doubt any(or at least many) Christians believe ALL atheists convert on their deathbed. Yes it is true that some do.

2. Yeah, in his opinion, it is an imaginary deity. I don't get all pissy when you guys call Jesus the son of god, do I?
I think that you would be rather upset if someone created a that about how his father died in 1996 a true, believing Christian, etc. etc. etc. And my point still stands.

Hey, Battlestar, I am STILL waiting for that "evidence". Can you please post something so I don't think you're full of shit?
It wasn't battlestar who said there was evidence.

Hey, Battlestar, I am STILL waiting for that "evidence". Can you please post something so I don't think you're full of shit?
Evidence for what?

Hey, Battlestar, I am STILL waiting for that "evidence". Can you please post something so I don't think you're full of shit?

That wasn't Battlestar. It Was Alexandria something.

1. I doubt any(or at least many) Christians believe ALL atheists convert on their deathbed. Yes it is true that some do.
Tell that to the same christians who go on about how an atheistic life has no point.

I think that you would be rather upset if someone created a that about how his father died in 1996 a true, believing Christian, etc. etc. etc. And my point still stands.
No, I wouldn't give a rat's ass. Thanks for assumung that I'm a high strung lunatic though.

Evidence for what?
He got you confused with someone else who said that there was scientific evidence for god after he claimed that there was no proof and that you needed a lack of proof in order to believe.

I think I scared him off when I pointed out the contradiction between his two posts....

It wasn't battlestar who said there was evidence.

Sorry, my mistake, it's early ;)

But, all the same, I'd really enjoy an opportunity to view any direct "evidence" there may be as to the exisence of god.

I already know that a few stories from the bible have been fixed to real locations, but that doesn't translate to direct evidence. Just like blurry photographs don't prove the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.

So, please accept my appologies. Then be so kind as to furnish any proof you can.

Or are you referring to my legal-historical proof?

The definition of science is the study of that which is "observable, measurable, and repeatable." The existence of God falls into none of those, so it cannot be determined by science.

However, can we prove the existence of George Washington? Yes, through "legal-historical proof."

Again, let's compare this to NS. How do we know these forums really exist?

First of all, we can see them. Obviously, we can't see God, but suppose we had a friend who had no way of getting to a computer. How would we prove to them NS exists?

We could tell them. That would be like the Bible. It tells us that God exists.

Also, they could see the effect NS has on us. That would be like seeing how people have been changed through Christianity.

Or are you referring to my legal-historical proof?

The definition of science is the study of that which is "observable, measurable, and repeatable." The existence of God falls into none of those, so it cannot be determined by science.

However, can we prove the existence of George Washington? Yes, through "legal-historical proof."

Again, let's compare this to NS. How do we know these forums really exist?

First of all, we can see them. Obviously, we can't see God, but suppose we had a friend who had no way of getting to a computer. How would we prove to them NS exists?

We could tell them. That would be like the Bible. It tells us that God exists.

Also, they could see the effect NS has on us. That would be like seeing how people have been changed through Christianity.


So, christianity is kind of like Schrodinger's Cat? That's kind of a non-answer.

'Allah' is merely the Arabic word for God. Arab-speaking Christians would refer call him 'Allah'. The fact of the matter is that Muslims believe that Christians (and Jews) as 'People of the Book' can indeed inherent the Kingdom of Heaven.

The difference being that Muslims do not believe in the trinity (Father, son and the holy spirit) and consider it blasphemy. They believe Allah to be one god, which is why i thought it easier to make the distinction between God and Allah, God meaning the trinity.

Anyway, point being, to a Muslim, polytheism is very grievous sin and most muslims consider christianity to be polytheistic because of the idea of the trinity, which is why according to muslims i have talked to, Christians are damned to hell.

Schrodinger's Cat? What's that?

For most religious people there is an everlasting life to soon come for them.

I'll live for life, but I'd prefer to live for the eternal life.

Why? Surely it's going to get a bit boring?

Now it's my turn. How can you live always thinking that there's a possibility that in your eternal life [which may be boring anyway], you'll be suffering eternal burning etc. in hell? Because there are so many places where one could go wrong, and..........

Why do so many of you atheists have trouble capitalizing 'Christian' and 'Bible'?
because one is only supposed to capitalize PROPPER nouns, and, to an atheist, those words are about as impropper as can be. ;)

Schrodinger's Cat? What's that?

It's a theory in Quantum physics.

A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following diabolical device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that perhaps in the course of one hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid.

If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The first atomic decay would have poisoned it.

So, until the box is opened, and evidence to one side or the other can be viewed, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time.

Get it?

Do taht many people recant there beliefs of not believing on there death bed??? I guess they're thinking "better safe than sorry." I shall not do this...I couldn't imagine myself saying there is a higher power and that capitalsim is the way to go.... power to the people!

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=140&sscatid=108


This article states that :

(Note: Kaafir is used as "non-believer" or "non-muslim")

This explanation, if considered closely, should clarify the fact that we cannot call anyone a "Kaafir" unless we have absolute knowledge of the reasons for his rejection of faith (or Islam), which we do not possess. Thus, for the purpose of this world, we should not call anyone a "Kaafir". It is only God, Who with His absolute knowledge can declare someone a "Kaafir". No one besides God possesses the knowledge that is essential to declare someone a "Kaafir".

Thus we know on the basis of God's declaration in the Qur'an that the Jews and the Christians (and those ascribing to other faiths) during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) refused to believe in the Prophet (pbuh) even after being fully convinced of his prophethood and were, therefore, termed "Kaafir" by the Almighty. As far as the Jews and the Christians of later times are concerned, we do not have adequate knowledge of the reasons for their rejection to term them "Kaafir". God, on the Day of Judgment, shall give the decision regarding these Jews and Christians. Those, among them, who refused to accept Islam and the prophethood of Mohammed (pbuh), although they were fully convinced of it being the truth, shall stand in the category of "Kaafirs" on the Day of Judgment.

Why do so many of you atheists have trouble capitalizing 'Christian' and 'Bible'?
If we're supposed to capitalize christian, then why the hell don't you capitalize atheist?

Honestly.

And the only reason to capitalize the word "bible" is that it's the name of a book...

Do taht many people recant there beliefs of not believing on there death bed??? I guess they're thinking "better safe than sorry." I shall not do this...I couldn't imagine myself saying there is a higher power and that capitalsim is the way to go.... power to the people!

Whatever you do say on your deathbed, say it in your native language.. elsewise no one, God included, will understand. ;)

If we're supposed to capitalize christian, then why the hell don't you capitalize atheist?

Honestly.

LOL i didn't even notice that. i guess i am so used to Christians not giving Atheism such recognition that i just skimmed right past it...

Some people's last words on their deathbeads will be "AAAAARGH!". That's universal. :)

Source? Besides "Raiders of the Lost ArK".

Here you go: http://www.bibleprobe.com/holy_lance.htm Scroll down to see when Hitler got it..

Here you go: http://www.bibleprobe.com/holy_lance.htm Scroll down to see when Hitler got it..
Wow. That website is so full of bullshit. You've got to love the 500 year gap in the history.

Did this thread just die? No response to my last post? Man that sucks.

The difference being that Muslims do not believe in the trinity (Father, son and the holy spirit) and consider it blasphemy. They believe Allah to be one god, which is why i thought it easier to make the distinction between God and Allah, God meaning the trinity.

Anyway, point being, to a Muslim, polytheism is very grievous sin and most muslims consider christianity to be polytheistic because of the idea of the trinity, which is why according to muslims i have talked to, Christians are damned to hell.
Then those Muslims are simply mis-informed. Christianity is not a polytheistic religion, and the Qu'ran explicity states that Christians are People of the Book, entitled to special treatment and capable of earning a place in Heaven.

because one is only supposed to capitalize PROPPER nouns, and, to an atheist, those words are about as impropper as can be. ;)
I don't care if you're an atheist, an agnostic or a Zen Buddhist. They are proper nouns, and all the unbelief in the world cannot change the rules of English grammar.

If we're supposed to capitalize christian, then why the hell don't you capitalize atheist?

Honestly.

The word 'Christian' is a proper noun. 'Atheist' is not.The word 'Christian' is derived from 'Christ', a proper noun, and is capitalized for the same reason 'Reaganomics' is.


And the only reason to capitalize the word "bible" is that it's the name of a book...
Then why do you refuse to capitalize it? You know the truth, yet you refuse to abide by it.

Then those Muslims are simply mis-informed. Christianity is not a polytheistic religion, and the Qu'ran explicity states that Christians are People of the Book, entitled to special treatment and capable of earning a place in Heaven.

Did you read my source? If the qu'ran states that, then quote me happy.

The hatred of religion on these boards is astounding, the point being. Why do you Atheists care if somebody else believes in a God? Why do you need to 'convert' them to Atheism (as many 'strong' ((Gay)) atheists testify)? You Atheists are just as dogmatic and fundamentalists as the priests screaming from their pulpits. Why can't you just let people worship in peace? Why do you have to belittle their beliefs all out of an urge of intellectual elitism? If you are so above us why do you need to belittle us all the time? I'm glad Atheism has had it's twilight. People don't even hear the good things religion has done, The Catholic Church who organized the poor people in Central America to fight for democracy against the CIA backed tyrannies for example, many of those priests, Archbishop Romero for example, were martyred by AmeriKKKans in the CIA who hate religion.

Well, I hate Atheism as well.

"Proud" to die an athiest? You mean, dying with the belief that there will be absolutely no consequences for the actions you've taken in life, no moral judgement? Yeah, real brave. :rolleyes:

Well, just because someone is an athiest doesn't mean they don't still have morals. Instead of doing good to be rewarded with an afterlife they can do good in order for the good of the whole, not just themselves. Seems less selfish to me...

Well, I hate Atheism as well.

That's not very Christian of you. :( You're supposed to love your neighbor.

That's not very Christian of you. :( You're supposed to love your neighbor.

He/she said "Atheism" not "Atheists." There's a difference.

That's not very Christian of you. :( You're supposed to love your neighbor.

I find it hard to love a group of people that's only purpose, as dictated by his theistic ideology (or lack of it) is to belittle theists. It is unchristian of me but I can't help it.

The only thing we know for fact.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food, end of story.

taxes...you forgot the taxes :(