NationStates Jolt Archive

Clinton wasnt on top of things either about 9/11 it was his decision to not kill osama when we could have easily taken him out
clinton had some blame, but all out war just then would have made no sense. the majority of the blame should go to bush. it was his resonsiblity, he was in office, and he had oppetunity. bush missed the clues, and the signs, and ignored it. he deserves most responsiblity.

yeah and then i said something agreeing with you and then you said something that i diddnt mean, then i corrected you and you went back to the first statement that i wasnt talking about and now its confusing :confused:
yup, im completely lost :D

1. You know certain things are supposed to be private matters and not broadcasted around sex is one of them. You know we could say the same thing about Europeans and violence, you guys arent open about violence hell some countries over there you can't show red blood in videogames(not sure how it is with movies.) Im sorry but that is even more repressed then anything thats seeing redblood aint going to screw a kid up for life but seeing hardcore porn at 10 probably will traumatize the kid.

Explain how a naturally occuring activity is more harmful psychologically than graphic violence.

2. Obviously you haven't been exposed to alot of poor people or rich people. If you had you would know theres alot of truth to this, people who want to succeed succeed people who don't or are just plain dumb dont. Theres plenty of people who were rich(because of inheritance) but since they were stupid they blew it and became poor. It has alot to do with intelligence and ability.

Sure, just like how they used to say aristocrats had superior traits.

3. They have to treat you if even if your homeless and have no money. They will try to collect from you but their chances are very slim. And if you gave everyone universal healthcare people would be forced to pay higher taxes because then when the slightest thing happened everyone would go to the doctor just because its free.

If you can get healthcare without paying for if you are poor, then wouldn't people just feign poverty to get healthcare?

5. And everyday people are told by liberals how they aren't free and they are being opressed it goes both ways.

Which is far outwayed by propaganda for the status quo.

6. Perhaps its because more men want to enter the political field?

Don't blame women for sexism.

no...because europe's different... i've been to germany and seen tits on billboards on crowded streets. that's life over there. culture doesn't exist in a vacume; if you live in a city with tits on billboards (that would be a great band name, btw) then that is not an issue for you. why do we have to be like europe?

Because there is no good reason to hate sex.

Thats nice for Europe. Different cultures all around and I'm pretty sure there are quite a handful of European countries that wouldnt have liked it as well. Keep in mind Europe is a big place and just because they have something called the EU doesnt mean they still dont have multiple cultures.

I bet if that happened in the Middle East on Al-Jezeera, Janet jackson would be on the back of a milk carton

Well if I must spell it out for you, the whole people should have seen it coming is more or less hindsight bias. Everyone should have seen the bad things coming toward them after the fact. You have no real point yourself when you say things like that.
its not really hindsight bias - you look at the situations the US got itself involved with and if you thought you wouldnt face any retributions then you were taking a very simplistic world view

clinton had some blame, but all out war just then would have made no sense. the majority of the blame should go to bush. it was his resonsiblity, he was in office, and he had oppetunity. bush missed the clues, and the signs, and ignored it. he deserves most responsiblity.

No way. Bush deserves blame on the Iraqi invasion, not 9/11. Clinton had been folowing osama for years and diddn't do anything

I simply can't respect a nation where it is illegal to show Neon Genesis Evangelion on TV and people are calling for the banning of Spongebob Squarepants.

I got your point, Nadkor, I just think the IRA example is a particularly poor one. Should the U.S. public have realized its policies were going to blow back eventually? Absolutely (if we weren't so lulled by our own "benevolent supremacy" propaganda, that is). Is your complaint about the IRA stuff indicative of general American attitudes towards anything in general, or our government's actions in particular? Not remotely.

its not really hindsight bias - you look at the situations the US got itself involved with and if you thought you wouldnt face any retributions then you were taking a very simplistic world view

No one thought it would happen on US soil. Everyone knew the US wasnt liked in parts of the world. You missed my point though. People thought the US government was doing a better job of protecting the homeland than it was doing.

And what are some of these situations again? Just for clairification.

I got your point, Nadkor, I just think the IRA example is a particularly poor one. Should the U.S. public have realized its policies were going to blow back eventually? Absolutely (if we weren't so lulled by our own "benevolent supremacy" propaganda, that is). Is your complaint about the IRA stuff indicative of general American attitudes towards anything in general, or our government's actions in particular? Not remotely.
the IRA was more an example of how the USA in general has supported various terrorists around the world - an example, thats particularly close to me, of the actions of the US over the last several decades that when they all add up were destined to lead to a reprisal from at least one organisation against the US

Because there is no good reason to hate sex.

America doesn't HATE sex...are you saying that if you were a ten-year-old kid walking into a porn shop and saw 'jamaican me horny,' you would not be affected at all? that is, as opposed to walking into a movie theater and seeing tom hanks shooting germans?

again, culture doesn't exist in a vacuum. american kids have learned from the media that violence may not be as bad as sex. whether it's bad or not, that's the way it is. while a european kid might cry from seeing gunshot wounds but not think twice about waking up every morning with a pair of 32 double D's staring back at him from across main street, an american kid might be just the opposite. i still don't see what's WRONG with it...

If it really bothers you so much, why don't you leave? Get the hell out of our country. Move to Canada - nobody's stopping you. Or Iraq. If you think it's bad here, why don't you go to Iraq? There's a reason we reelected Bush. If it bothers you, then maybe you shouldn't be here.

No one thought it would happen on US soil. Everyone knew the US wasnt liked in parts of the world. You missed my point though. People thought the US government was doing a better job of protecting the homeland than it was doing.

.....which was my point.
they really shouldnt have been so naive


And what are some of these situations again? Just for clairification.
what situations?
South American dictators?
training and equipping Al-Quaeda?

I simply can't respect a nation where it is illegal to show Neon Genesis Evangelion on TV and people are calling for the banning of Spongebob Squarepants.

1)When was it ever illegal to show Neon Genesis Evangelion on TV? Cant see it on Regular TV? Save up and buy the series. Or better yet there is this thing called Cable. On Digital Cable there is an Anime Channel. Least up in the Bronx we have a channel called Anime on Demand. Get any show you want.

2)Lunatic fringe groups want to ban Spongebob. Lunatic fringe groups exist everywhere. What do you expect?

the IRA was more an example of how the USA in general has supported various terrorists around the world - an example, thats particularly close to me, of the actions of the US over the last several decades that when they all add up were destined to lead to a reprisal from at least one organisation against the US

Well, see, that's the thing. It's not. The United States government supporting these sorts of actions is one thing (and there are plenty examples of that), but you're talking about small numbers of private American citizens that neither government NOR American society knew much about or had anything to do with. Hence my example of Richard Reid and your Islamist clerics -- the IRA stuff is on the same level with that. Not the same level as our activities in, say, Chile or Iran or central America. Casting those sorts of things as equal to your borderline-conspiracy-theory-esque IRA complaint is really, truly unfair.

.....which was my point.
they really shouldnt have been so naive


what situations?
South American dictators?
training and equipping Al-Quaeda?


Funny..because the US is rife with terrorists attacks on its own soil? It didnt happen much before and its not likely to be a daily occurance in the future. Everyone gets lulled into false senses of security. Its how it happens.

As for the situations..oh god..so what did US actions in the Cold War in South America lead to 9/11? As for Al-Quaeda..wrong..sorry try and again. They didnt exist in the 1980s.

Since all of Letila's points have been effectively ripped to shreds, I'd like him to please explain how capitalism doesn't work.

I enjoy good works of fiction.

1)When was it ever illegal to show Neon Genesis Evangelion on TV? Cant see it on Regular TV? Save up and buy the series. Or better yet there is this thing called Cable. On Digital Cable there is an Anime Channel. Least up in the Bronx we have a channel called Anime on Demand. Get any show you want.

It is currently illegal to. The Anime channel can't show it. It even said on a commentary that comes with the set that it is illegal to show it on TV.

2)Lunatic fringe groups want to ban Spongebob. Lunatic fringe groups exist everywhere. What do you expect?

But do you see any lunatic fringe groups like that in Europe?

America doesn't HATE sex...are you saying that if you were a ten-year-old kid walking into a porn shop and saw 'jamaican me horny,' you would not be affected at all? that is, as opposed to walking into a movie theater and seeing tom hanks shooting germans?

It really depends on how afraid I am of sex how much it would effect me.

again, culture doesn't exist in a vacuum. american kids have learned from the media that violence may not be as bad as sex. whether it's bad or not, that's the way it is. while a european kid might cry from seeing gunshot wounds but not think twice about waking up every morning with a pair of 32 double D's staring back at him from across main street, an american kid might be just the opposite. i still don't see what's WRONG with it...

I could present a strong case that sex-negative attitudes are psychologically harmful. Let me just say that sex is far better than gunshots.

Does this by any chance have to do with something Gundam Seed like? Or any other anmime show?
Ad nice that yor finally posting more then just a one sentence message again.
okay, the censoring thing does show up alot in anime (rifles for supersoakers, they didn't even SHOOT anyone with them... No wonder its the golden age of Piracy, the navy tries to kill pirates with WATER RIFLES) They also get their shorts in a twist about TRUELY stupid things. For instance, people finding offense with Monday night football segment involving a womans nude back, not even ass, just back. A fucking shampoo commercial contains more nudity than that.

Since all of Letila's points have been effectively ripped to shreds, I'd like him to please explain how capitalism doesn't work.

I enjoy good works of fiction.

isn't it a she?

id like to hear this too

Funny..because the US is rife with terrorists attacks on its own soil? It didnt happen much before and its not likely to be a daily occurance in the future. Everyone gets lulled into false senses of security. Its how it happens.
i dont think youre understanding me correctly

I am saying that it was naive to believe that - you seem to be agreeing in some way



As for the situations..oh god..so what did US actions in the Cold War in South America lead to 9/11? As for Al-Quaeda..wrong..sorry try and again. They didnt exist in the 1980s.
Those actions didnt lead directly to 9/11, rather a culmination of the USs foreign policy and actions over the preceding years did

The Mujahadin - where do you think they got their weapons etc from? Who trained bin Laden?

The Mujahadin - where do you think they got their weapons etc from? Who trained bin Laden?

They got the weapons from the russians
the CIA helped osama defeat the russians

isn't it a she?

No, I'm male.

Since all of Letila's points have been effectively ripped to shreds, I'd like him to please explain how capitalism doesn't work.

I enjoy good works of fiction.

That's technically a red herring. I'll address it in another thread.

Well, see, that's the thing. It's not. The United States government supporting these sorts of actions is one thing (and there are plenty examples of that), but you're talking about small numbers of private American citizens that neither government NOR American society knew much about or had anything to do with. Hence my example of Richard Reid and your Islamist clerics -- the IRA stuff is on the same level with that. Not the same level as our activities in, say, Chile or Iran or central America. Casting those sorts of things as equal to your borderline-conspiracy-theory-esque IRA complaint is really, truly unfair.
anyone who ever gave any money to Coke, or to McDonalds helped fund the IRA

I never said it was on the same level as some of the other things you did, i merely picked it as an example of a minor thing that America has done - replicate that on a bigger scale with other organisations and with whole states, plus the government officially doing it, and you get what i mean

It is currently illegal to. The Anime channel can't show it. It even said on a commentary that comes with the set that it is illegal to show it on TV.

But do you see any lunatic fringe groups like that in Europe?

1) Really? You can buy porn in the US but you cant get Neon Genesis? I really want some proof on this. Why would they have it illegal in the US again? And yet it would be possible to buy the DVD at any anime vendor?

2)Sure..before Putin went to Auschwitz, 20 MPs of in the Duma stated their intentions in wanting to pass a law to investigate all jewish organizations in Russia and then shut them down.

In Germany, the anniversary of the bombing of Dresden and the right wing party showing up holding a counter rally.

In the last French Presidental elections, the fact that a guy even the BBC called facist almost became President just goes to show you...that our lunatic fringe groups are a joke. The European ones are just insane.

The russians
the letters you are looking for are "C", "I" and "A"

I could present a strong case that sex-negative attitudes are psychologically harmful. Let me just say that sex is far better than gunshots.

...we keep going in circles. i agree that sex is better than gunshots, but american youth have been, at least to a certain extent, desensitized to violence; more so than sex. i'm sure any number of people could present cases that sex-negative or violence-negative attitudes are psychologically harmful. my point is, although sex may be healthier to witness for a developing child than death, that is not the norm in the minds of the vast majority of america's youth. if you suddenly replaced 'saving private ryan' with 'saving ryan's privates' on TV, many many children would be seriously f-d up, whether that's the way it should be or not.

1) Really? You can buy porn in the US but you cant get Neon Genesis? I really want some proof on this. Why would they have it illegal in the US again? And yet it would be possible to buy the DVD at any anime vendor?

You can buy it on DVD, but it said on a commentary on the DVD that it is illegal to show on TV because of the blood, sex, and "sacreligious" stuff about killing angels.

2)Sure..before Putin went to Auschwitz, 20 MPs of in the Duma stated their intentions in wanting to pass a law to investigate all jewish organizations in Russia and then shut them down.

In Germany, the anniversary of the bombing of Dresden and the right wing party showing up holding a counter rally.

In the last French Presidental elections, the fact that a guy even the BBC called facist almost became President just goes to show you...that our lunatic fringe groups are a joke. The European ones are just insane.

Then explain Europe's much higher sexual freedom?

...we keep going in circles. i agree that sex is better than gunshots, but american youth have been, at least to a certain extent, desensitized to violence; more so than sex. i'm sure any number of people could present cases that sex-negative or violence-negative attitudes are psychologically harmful. my point is, although sex may be healthier to witness for a developing child than death, that is not the norm in the minds of the vast majority of america's youth. if you suddenly replaced 'saving private ryan' with 'saving ryan's privates' on TV, many many children would be seriously f-d up, whether that's the way it should be or not.

Isn't that a sign that something is wrong with American mass-psychology?

The U.S. did not directly support Osama Bin Laden. We supported the Mujahideen. Many of these were not Islamic extremists. Rather, they became the Northern Alliance after the fall of Kabul in 1996 to the Taliban. Also, it might be worth noting that the Taliban wasn't even formed until 1994 which is 6 years after the Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan. The withdrawl of the Soviets effectively ended American aid to Afghanistan. So we never supported the Taliban or Osama Bin Laden. We gave money and Stinger Shoulder-fired Surface to Air Missiles (SAM) to the Mujahideen who distributed it to its commands. Remember that most of those fighting against the Soviets also fought against the Taliban when they began to besiege the country.

i dont think youre understanding me correctly
Those actions didnt lead directly to 9/11, rather a culmination of the USs foreign policy and actions over the preceding years did

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that our particular actions in the middle east and central Asian countries that were the "straw that broke the camel's back." Or maybe Russian Roulette would be a better metaphor -- we can mess around with plenty of countries and come out unscathed. But the more times you do it, the greater the likelihood you're going to come up with a bullet instead of an empty chamber. Guatemala, Nicaragua, Grenada, Chile, the Congo, Iran, Cambodia -- these were among the many empties. Vietnam and the Arab world, on the other hand, were loaded.

Isn't that a sign that something is wrong with American mass-psychology?

absolutely. but the fact that it's wrong doesn't change anything.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that our particular actions in the middle east and central Asian countries that were the "straw that broke the camel's back." Or maybe Russian Roulette would be a better metaphor -- we can mess around with plenty of countries and come out unscathed. But the more times you do it, the greater the likelihood you're going to come up with a bullet instead of an empty chamber. Guatemala, Nicaragua, Grenada, Chile, the Congo, Iran, Cambodia -- these were among the many empties. Vietnam and the Arab world, on the other hand, were loaded.
close enough to what im saying to not need to argue with it

It is currently illegal to. The Anime channel can't show it. It even said on a commentary that comes with the set that it is illegal to show it on TV.


I could present a strong case that sex-negative attitudes are psychologically harmful. Let me just say that sex is far better than gunshots.

Maybe no networks wanted to pick up the show? There are hundreds of anime series in Japan. If a television station wants to pick up an anime series they have hundreds of choices to choose from and they pick the one they think would be most appealing to their audiences. Most anime only appeals to a small minority of people. The exceptions are what networks pick up which are mainly the kids shows like Pokemon and Yu gi oh. So if a non cable network decided to show 2 hours of a anime a week they would look at it this way and be like "well we could get so many viewers if we play Pokemon or we just get this many viewers if we play Neo Genesis."

Now a cable channel that specializes in Anime is more likely to show Neogenesis if they feel their viewer base would like it. Hell I don't like how cartoon network stopped showing Lupin but instead of complaining about it I went and bought the DvDs for the series. Just because they don't show it doesn't mean its illegal afterall you can buy the DvDs for neogenesis in the states.



And its possible to show a strong case that a society too open to sex is bad for children also. There are studies that go both ways. You realize people suspect the reason Europe has a negative birthrate is because they are too open about sex which means less people are marrying.

i dont think youre understanding me correctly

I am saying that it was naive to believe that - you seem to be agreeing in some way

Those actions didnt lead directly to 9/11, rather a culmination of the USs foreign policy and actions over the preceding years did

The Mujahadin - where do you think they got their weapons etc from? Who trained bin Laden?

Why is it naive? Thats my main sticking point. You dont seem to understand the typical american if you think its naive. Then again you come from Ireland. Tell me how's the peace holding up? Think Ireland will make it to half a century without a bombing?

As for 9/11...Bin Laden has many complaints with the US. One of them isnt South America. Another isnt policies in Africa or Asia.

As for the Mujahadin..they dont equal Al Queda. After the Soviets left Afganistan in the mess it was in the Mujahadin splintered. Bin Laden with them. Bin Ladin comes from Saudi Arabia, a nation which has been trying to have its cake and eat it to for the past 30 years when it comes to fundamentalism and ties with the west. Al Queada was born out of Saudi Arabia telling Osama to flip off when he offered his forces to defend against any invasion by Saddam Hussiens military. Not only did Saudi Arabia refuse Osama's help but they went and allowed US troops to base there. And thus Osama began to gather followers, and Saudi Arabia sent him to the Sudan..who turned a blind eye while he used his families buisness to build up the nation and his organization in the early-mid 90s.

Did the US train Osama Bin Laden? Yup..but what do you expect? The Russians did the same to us in Vietnam. It was called the Cold War for a reason.

:cool: -Come now. The real reason that so many countries dislike americans is because (1) We have so much freedom, and such a high quality of life, but all we do is complain; we take it all for granted and

(2) With all of the weapons that these terrorists have, we gave them half of them. The Russian's gave them the other half. We both tried to get them to fight our little 'controlled wars' for a while, and now they're fed up, and out for revenge. They're still lost in the cold war.

They'd go after the Russians, but their government isn't forcing their way on the majority of them anymore, because communism sapped all their resources. So they come after our imperialist government.

This all ties in to number 3.(3) Americans, no matter what walk of life we happen to come from, as a generality, there are exceptions, but the most of us are arrogant as hell.

That's just the way the math goes in my head, though.

What is an inbred mongoloid, by the way? Is that like with the ancient egyptians inbreeding their royalty?

Sorry, but you are SOL. In the US it is illegal to be denied medical service from any public hospital. Basically, if you show up at the ER with a broken leg, they must treat you (even if you can't pay for it, and they know you can't pay for it). Billions each year go to pay for people who can't pay their hospital bills.

But that only means that they get you stable. If you are poor, you dont get the same treatment and care as a rich person.

:cool: -Come now. The real reason that so many countries dislike americans is because (1) We have so much freedom, and such a high quality of life,
i just hope this is meant to be not taken 100% seriously

Maybe no networks wanted to pick up the show? There are hundreds of anime series in Japan. If a television station wants to pick up an anime series they have hundreds of choices to choose from and they pick the one they think would be most appealing to their audiences. Most anime only appeals to a small minority of people. The exceptions are what networks pick up which are mainly the kids shows like Pokemon and Yu gi oh. So if a non cable network decided to show 2 hours of a anime a week they would look at it this way and be like "well we could get so many viewers if we play Pokemon or we just get this many viewers if we play Neo Genesis."

Now a cable channel that specializes in Anime is more likely to show Neogenesis if they feel their viewer base would like it. Hell I don't like how cartoon network stopped showing Lupin but instead of complaining about it I went and bought the DvDs for the series. Just because they don't show it doesn't mean its illegal afterall you can buy the DvDs for neogenesis in the states.

No, I don't think you get it. It SAID that it was illegal. I didn't infer that it was illegal by the way it wasn't shown on TV. It SAID on the DVD set that I do have that it was illegal to show on American TV.

And its possible to show a strong case that a society too open to sex is bad for children also. There are studies that go both ways. You realize people suspect the reason Europe has a negative birthrate is because they are too open about sex which means less people are marrying.

I thought the standard consie party line was that being open about sex caused teenage pregnancy.

Mabee you should take a second and think...
HUMMMMMM...
Mabee its because that we are this way we are the most powerful country in the world. Just think about it.

I thought the standard consie party line was that being open about sex caused teenage pregnancy.

no way. who told you that? you claim that the US is so repressive about sexuality, yet our teen pregnancy rate is astronomically higher than many 'sexually open' european countries.

There are nude beaches in America, Letila. And as Chess said, the SC turned over those laws (or was it the gay sex law?). I don't know. But if anal is illegal, it's on a state-by-state basis.
The Supreme Court overturned sodomy laws, which despite what apparently the entire country thinks, has nothing to do with gay or straight. Sodomy is any form of sex that isn't missionary position. Under Sodomy laws, all those football players you knew in high school who got blown off by all the cheerleaders were breaking the law.

Mabee you should take a second and think...
HUMMMMMM...
Mabee its because that we are this way we are the most powerful country in the world. Just think about it.
Pity they can't give grammar and spelling lessons in the "most powerful country in the world."

Talk about an AmeriKKKan. Holy crap, man, develop some pride in your nation. You talk about Holland being free, but no one wants to live in a liberal "paradise". If only you knew of their problems with drug trafficking and smuggling. Move to Canada.

Pity they can't give grammar and spelling lessons in the "most powerful country in the world."

oh, but they can. we kicked the rest of the world's ass in many standardized tests, and i'm pretty sure our literacy rate is higher than yours.
let's not get off topic.

You can buy it on DVD, but it said on a commentary on the DVD that it is illegal to show on TV because of the blood, sex, and "sacreligious" stuff about killing angels.



Then explain Europe's much higher sexual freedom?


1)None of that is illegal in th US to show. You can see it on Buffy, you could see it on Angel or Charmed. It would however probably stick in the craw of certain people to show it on regular TV. But you can see it on Anime on Demand.

http://www.theanimenetwork.com/aboutus.php Click on 24/7 schedule.

2)Umm..I said every country has lunatic fringe groups. You told me to prove it I did. Why does it matter to you that Europe has a much higher sexual freedom? I'm sorry but what the Russians are doing is far scarier than whats going on in the U.S. That march in Germany is equally scarier than Bush's hollow threats to add a constitution amendment.

anyone who ever gave any money to Coke, or to McDonalds helped fund the IRA

I'm unaware of this particular charge, but again, it no more implicates "America" than the various Muslim charities that have supported terrorism while operating in European countries implicate "Britan" or "France." And, I might remind you, plenty of non-Americans "contribute" to Coke and McDonalds. You cannot imply that this implicates entire nationalities in terrorism. If whole countries (rather than individuals or corporations) could have rap sheets, this simply doesn't belong on ours.

So I should have my favorite shows censored to satisfy some sexually repressed fundies?

You're leaving out that its not 'some', its the majority. Meaning that more people would rather have the show censored in the United States then not.


Hierarchy is not the same thing as aristocracy.

You're not fully understanding Hierarchy's meaning:

hi·er·ar·chy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-rärk, hrär-)
n. pl. hi·er·ar·chies

Categorization of a group of people according to ability or status.

While yes it does refer to ability it also refers to status, hence I said it was an IMPLIED relation. The term you actually want is limited "Social-Darwinism".

And don't you get bad credit for it?

Not really no, provided you pay your 1 penny a month it might even give you good credit.


So it is pure coincidence that there are only about 10% women in congress?

Thats certainly a possibility yes, but notice its not the only one I listed.

What cultural conditions? Have I missed something?

I said its one of a list of possibilities. If you think its wrong (as I do) then more power to you, but until it can be proven 100% wrong then it remains a possibility.

...and i'm pretty sure our literacy rate is higher than yours.
or not:


Literacy Rate in the USA = 97%
...
Literacy Rate in the UK = 99%

source (http://mailman.edc.org/pipermail/digitaldivide/2005-February/001165.html)

This is certainly fair. Yet within twenty miles of my home, there are no less than five strip clubs, a dozen porn shops, and 17 channels on my TV, if I want them.
I've seen British TV. I've seen Polish, Czech, Austrian, German, and Slovak TV. And I don't see porn on in the middle of the afternoon on channel six over there, either.
Yeah, but how many singing penis commericals do you see in America, or how about television shows with nudist sky-divers (sans blurr) face it, there is more nudity in a single commercial in europe than there is all day on american television (short of those 17 channels)

I'm unaware of this particular charge, but again, it no more implicates "America" than the various Muslim charities that have supported terrorism while operating in European countries implicate "Britan" or "France." And, I might remind you, plenty of non-Americans "contribute" to Coke and McDonalds. You cannot imply that this implicates entire nationalities in terrorism. If whole countries (rather than individuals or corporations) could have rap sheets, this simply doesn't belong on ours.
OK, this argument is going nowhere

just look in to Mcdonalds, Coke and Noraid

I just love America bashers, particularly ones who don't mention where they are from. Just a few truths to those of you who hate us without ever even being here.

First, this is called the land of opportunity because it truely is that land. Everyone here has the ability to make their lives better. If somone decides to waste thier life by not studying in free public schools, or decides they would rather smoke dope than study, no one forces them to do otherwise. My parents both came from families that had to grow thier own food, and make their own clothes. My father, who dropped out of highschool, worked his way up from the bottom to become General Manager of the plant where he started.

I knew that no one could afford to pay my way through school, so I worked hard and received a partial scholarship to a small school, and loaded bread trucks, a job anyone who had walked in the door could have gotten, and paid my way from that and then better jobs as I moved up. I say this to point out that there is opportunity for anyone to improve their lot in life here. But there are no free rides.

As for the rest of the world hating us, when has the world not hated the mightest empire of the day. We have approximantly the same military power as the rest of the world, as well as the same economic power as the rest of the world, combined. This doesn't make us better people, but it makes others despise us.

I would like to see other countries that do as much as we do to feed the hungry, build shelter for those who have lost what little they had, all the while being cursed in the background. The video of US military forces handing out aid while a small child in the background jumped up and down in a bin laden T-shirt is the perfect example of the state of mind of the rest of the world.

However, we continue to do what we can to make the world a better place. While most assuredly, having made many mistakes, with many more to come in the future, at least we do not sit by the wayside casting crude remarks at others for doing what they can. We simply do what we can, to help who we can and try to bring the rest of the world forward.

But I've rambled enough, and accomplished nothing I know. So now I leave you to continue to curse me and the United States and everyone here, while you sit there, and if you sit in safey, more than likely you owe some of that saftey to the very country you curse. Have no fear however, for I'm sure we will countinue to strive to protect that safety, no matter what is said about us. Maybe one day we can get over all these petty conflicts and move the entire world forward. I just hope that day is in my lifetime.

or not:


source (http://mailman.edc.org/pipermail/digitaldivide/2005-February/001165.html)

dammit. my bad.

edit: :mad: :headbang:

Nadkor if you're wondering if I'm going to reply to you, I'm the last post on page 19 :)

I can't find it at the moment but I thought I saw somebody say that nude beaches are illegal in the U.S. I just wanted to say that, that statement is horribly inaccurate. There are dozens of nude beaches in California alone.

No, I don't think you get it. It SAID that it was illegal. I didn't infer that it was illegal by the way it wasn't shown on TV. It SAID on the DVD set that I do have that it was illegal to show on American TV.



I thought the standard consie party line was that being open about sex caused teenage pregnancy.

It might be a publicity stunt for them to say its illegal. Kinda like how if you tell someone something is hot they want to buy it. And theres a difference from it being illegal and networks self censoring themselves, which they do frequently to preserve their audience base and advertisers. Kinda like how some cable stations choose to allow cursing on air and some don't. The ones that do allow cursing ussually don't have advertisers who are worried about their image so they have more leeway.
I just checked Anime On Demand on cable and they have Neogenesis on their listings.


Dumbasses and booze cause teen pregenancy. But their is probably a correlation between openness with sex and teen pregnancy. I don't really know the rates for Europe and all. But I think its more of a intelligence thing with teen pregnancies some people are just stupid and cant think 15 minutes ahead of them.

Why is it naive? Thats my main sticking point. You dont seem to understand the typical american if you think its naive. Then again you come from Ireland. Tell me how's the peace holding up? Think Ireland will make it to half a century without a bombing?

Why is it naive? Why is it naive to think that you can screw around with the world without anybody having issues with your actions and attacking you?
I dont care if thats the typical american attitude - if it is, then the typical american attitude is naive


As for 9/11...Bin Laden has many complaints with the US. One of them isnt South America. Another isnt policies in Africa or Asia.
I never said those were complains of bin Laden
Just that somewhere somebody was going to take issue with you, and the fact that you interfered in so many places just increased the likelihood, and increased the resentment shown by many people worldwide towards you


As for the Mujahadin..they dont equal Al Queda. After the Soviets left Afganistan in the mess it was in the Mujahadin splintered. Bin Laden with them.
Exactly, bin Laden was in them and received his training from them, who in turn were trained by the CIA

Bin Ladin comes from Saudi Arabia, a nation which has been trying to have its cake and eat it to for the past 30 years when it comes to fundamentalism and ties with the west. Al Queada was born out of Saudi Arabia telling Osama to flip off when he offered his forces to defend against any invasion by Saddam Hussiens military. Not only did Saudi Arabia refuse Osama's help but they went and allowed US troops to base there. And thus Osama began to gather followers, and Saudi Arabia sent him to the Sudan..who turned a blind eye while he used his families buisness to build up the nation and his organization in the early-mid 90s.
Im not disputing that


Did the US train Osama Bin Laden? Yup..but what do you expect? The Russians did the same to us in Vietnam. It was called the Cold War for a reason.
See, thats partly the attitude i mean - "we trained him because we thought we needed to, but we never thought he would use it on us"

Nadkor if you're wondering if I'm going to reply to you, I'm the last post on page 19 :)
thanks :)

Most Americans think that the rest of the world hates them because they are free. That, however, is dead wrong. I hate it for being too capitalist and two oppressive.

1. Sexual repression--The US has a truly terrible attitude towards sex. Whereas most of the first world has little problem with sex and censors it rarely, the FCC censors stuff all the time. Americans themselves are even more sex-negative than the government, demanding that censor more stuff than it already is.

2. Élitism--In the US, if you are poor, it is considered your fault and you wasted all your money on drugs. If you are rich, it is supposedly because you worked hard. As a result, the poor are treated far worse than those in other first world nations.

3. Healthcare--If you are poor, you don't have many options. If you break your leg and can't afford healthcare, you are SOL (how can you get a job when your leg is on the verge of falling off is beyond me, but Americans, conservatives in particular, expect you to do so).

4. Standards of Living--The US is supposed to be the richest nation in the world, yet its standard of living is below that of many European nations. Its life-expectancy is around 5 years less than that of Japan. Whether its due to rampant obesity or lack of concern for the poor, I don't know.

5. Propaganda--Everyday, I hear endlessly about how free the US is. If the US is so free, why do we need to be reminded of it? I am begining to wonder if the reason for all this propaganda is a lack of freedom that the gov wants us to ignore.

6. Sexism--The US is far behind the rest of the first world (except Japan, hardly something to be proud of) in terms of sexual equality. While few Americans are overtly sexist, it shows in the small number of women in political offices compared to the rest of the first world.

7. Stupid laws--There are so many stupid laws in the US. Do we really need laws against gay marriage, anal sex, pot, prostitution, etc.? Holland doesn't and it isn't collapsing into a dystopia. For a "free country", the US has a lot of truly stupid laws.

Of course, people are going to invariably post "It's better than in Iraq/China/Afghanistan/etc." That does not excuse anything!

Are you an American spy that is spying on poor old me because these are similar reasons i hate america. I really hate gays and thats why virgina is my most favorite state.

Another thing you got wrong was the propaganda. The we are land of the free mumbo jumbo (hell we cant even say fire in a movie theater or racial remarks) is more of a come to america speech rather then proganda which is normally subliminal or forced. Such subliminal/forced messaging is that "All Germans are Nazis" or "Every single individual regardless of race, religion, etc who wants to take over the world is a communist and a nazi." They actual subliminally force this along with america never did anything wrong as in ignorant students not learning about the dark side of american history (normally forced). I know this from experience since well yea. Another peace of subliminal messaging is exampled in disney movies (they make me sick those perverts) and some songs (When played backwards).

Now for the others. Sexism exists on both sides. America is in self denial because their what ever document they have that gives rights is based on Catholic beliefs which they now deny and are being segregational (if that's the right word) against them for not liking gays (such as canada fining the clergy for not performing gay marriages) and other beliefs such as anti interest beliefs (damn capitalist).

America also goes against the un and doesnt understand that you attack a country that hates you and are developing nukes before you try to liberate a country from another tyrant that hates you a lot less.

How is the US sexist?

BTW, all that stuff up there is taken way out of proportion, if you still gave me a chance to be reborn anywhere in the world I would take the US. It lists Italy as #6 or something on bbc. Thats rich, I was in Italy, seemed like most of them lived on small farms or city apartments.

I hate America because of their President George Bush, who as led them through hell and back. Acting as if America has the right to police the world. Which I throughly dislike.

And what is next eh?

Will he show off his muscles once more and invade Iran and North Korea, will they start a Nuclear War and finish us all off?

You think your region is better than our country.

Bully for you, would you like a fucking cookie?

I got through about 12 pages of this tripe until I finally reached a critical mass of idiocy. Frankly, I will fully and totally admit to all claims you have made in your original post. If someone can't work their asses off, they don't deserve to succeed, or even have a chance to succeed. It's not fair to me, or anyone else who has the means to get ahead with pure grit and determination.

The current educational system supports those who are in need and require assistance. I'm only paying half of the 'sticker price' for tuition right how. Why? Because the government recognizes that I am a hard working citizen and I have potential. They also see that their investment will not be squandered on an underachiever.

So If I were in one of your well-fellated European nations, I would probably have to give up half as much of my effort to get the same kind of support. Whatever. I'm here, I'm proud of my roots, and I'll be damned if some Eurotrash halfwit like yourself is going to tell me that we're scum because you've figured out the entire American demographic in your... oh let me guess... 12 or 13 years of existence?

No. I get up in the morning, put on my clothes which I purchased with the money I earned managing a Wendys back at home during the summer, go walk to my government assisted college classes. I put in my time there, go to my Federal Work Study job for an hour or so, go back to classes, eat a cheeseburger with extra bacon, wash it down with an extra large soda. If I have chest pains later on in life, my comprehensive health insurance will pick up practically all of the bill. I'll go back to my room, study, and then hit the gym (some of us choose to go to the gym and be beautiful, some of us don't and end up fat :cool: ) Maybe I'll watch some Fox News with a 0% chance of titty action and 100% chance of Republican propaganda. Maybe I'll listen to NPR! :eek: And then when I've got my fill, I'll march my ass down to the Navy recruiter to see how well they can handle the other half of my tuition. It appears they can handle it and give me a monthly stipend! Bonus! It looks like this poor boy from the farmlands of Ohio is going to go to school for free for the rest of his Undergraduate degree and then have is Graduate study completely funded by the government as well!

I think there was a song that expresses what I'm trying to say here, how does it go?

"America, Fuck Yeah!"

Oh, that's the song, and it sounds beautiful. ;)

1. Sexual repression--The US has a truly terrible attitude towards sex.

Nope. You can get porn almost anywhere. On the net, adult video store, cable tv, you name it. Simply because it's not shown on free network tv does not constitute "sexual repression."

2. Élitism--In the US, if you are poor, it is considered your fault

Maybe because it often is at least in part their fault? Anyway, in the US, "poverty" is a very relative term. You can be poor here (bottom 10% income) and still have color tv, dishwasher, clothes dryer, stereo. I've known more than a few immigrants from third world countries and they'd all agree that "poor" here is better than "middle class" in quite a few other places.

3. Healthcare--If you are poor, you don't have many options.

As has been pointed out, you can get emergency care with no insurance. 85% of Americans are medically insured and most of the rest can afford what they need. Seems like a weak reason to "hate" the US.

4. Standards of Living--The US is supposed to be the richest nation in the world

Actually, the US *is* the richest nation in the world, and that's how standard of living is measured. Know your terms before you contradict yourself.

5. Propaganda--Everyday, I hear endlessly about how free the US is. If the US is so free, why do we need to be reminded of it?

To remind those who are less than observant like yourself from forgetting. Perhaps they need to ramp it up a bit. :)

Seriously, I hardly hear any such "propaganda" and I read the news on a regular basis. Maybe you should cite some sources that the "propaganda" comes from.

6. Sexism--The US is far behind the rest of the first world (except Japan, hardly something to be proud of) in terms of sexual equality.

Bullshit. The women here economically and politically have as much opportunity as they do anywhere else. If we're "sexist" everyone is sexist.

7. Stupid laws--There are so many stupid laws in the US. Do we really need laws against gay marriage, anal sex, pot, prostitution, etc.?

Most of those are illegal in other first world nations as well. Do you "hate" the rest of the first world as much as you claim you do the US?

And it still ranks below 12 other nations. That is not something to be proud of.

I don't know what each of those 12 nations are but 1) countries like Britain, France, and Germany wound up ranking below the US and 2) do you realize that Ireland, the number one on the list, outlaws abortion in most cases? Seems that by your narrow standards, Ireland would be more "oppressive" than the country for which you claim to have such distaste.

I hate it for being too capitalist and two oppressive.

Well other than the fact that the entire first world is capitalist and that thus far you have not demonstrated any true oppression in the US, I'd say you have a lot more work to do before you're gonna convince anyone of your case. Better luck next time.

You think your region is better than our country.

Bully for you, would you like a fucking cookie?

I got through about 12 pages of this tripe until I finally reached a critical mass of idiocy. Frankly, I will fully and totally admit to all claims you have made in your original post. If someone can't work their asses off, they don't deserve to succeed, or even have a chance to succeed. It's not fair to me, or anyone else who has the means to get ahead with pure grit and determination.

The current educational system supports those who are in need and require assistance. I'm only paying half of the 'sticker price' for tuition right how. Why? Because the government recognizes that I am a hard working citizen and I have potential. They also see that their investment will not be squandered on an underachiever.

So If I were in one of your well-fellated European nations, I would probably have to give up half as much of my effort to get the same kind of support. Whatever. I'm here, I'm proud of my roots, and I'll be damned if some Eurotrash halfwit like yourself is going to tell me that we're scum because you've figured out the entire American demographic in your... oh let me guess... 12 or 13 years of existence?

No. I get up in the morning, put on my clothes, go walk to my government assisted college classes. I put in my time there, go to my Federal Work Study job for an hour or so, go back to classes, eat a cheeseburger with extra bacon, wash it down with an extra large soda. I'll go back to my room, study, and then hit the gym (some of us choose to go to the gym and be beautiful, some of us don't and end up fat :cool: ) Maybe I'll watch some Fox News with a 0% chance of titty action and 100% chance of Republican propaganda. Maybe I'll listen to NPR! :eek: And then when I've got my fill, I'll march my ass down to the Navy recruiter to see how well they can handle the other half of my tuition. It appears they can handle it and give me a monthly stipend! Bonus! It looks like this poor boy from the farmlands of Ohio is going to go to school for free for the rest of his Undergraduate degree and then have is Graduate study completely funded by the government as well!

I think there was a song that expresses what I'm trying to say here, how does it go?

"America, Fuck Yeah!"

Oh, that's the song, and it sounds beautiful. ;)
what was that about a critical mass of idiocy?

;)

what was that about a critical mass of idiocy?

;)

I meant to write "I don't give a damn about what you think about the USA, hippy" and then it just kind of got out of control :)

Edit: Much like this thread :D

I hate America because of their President George Bush, who as led them through hell and back. Acting as if America has the right to police the world. Which I throughly dislike.

And what is next eh?

Will he show off his muscles once more and invade Iran and North Korea, will they start a Nuclear War and finish us all off?

we shouldnt be hated for the mistakes for our mediocre leader. i believe a postion as a garbage man would be a better job for Bush. may americans were against the Iraqi war, myslef being one of them. we had no right to invade a country, even though i do not condone the practices of their previous government. it isnt our place to 'spread democracy' to the world.

the letters you are looking for are "C", "I" and "A"

Yeah but the Mujahaden used russian weapons

I meant to write "I don't give a damn about what you think about the USA, hippy" and then it just kind of got out of control :)

Edit: Much like this thread :D
a decent sense of humour goes a long way :)

EDIT: And on a celebratory note, this is my 1000th post

How is the US sexist?

BTW, all that stuff up there is taken way out of proportion, if you still gave me a chance to be reborn anywhere in the world I would take the US. It lists Italy as #6 or something on bbc. Thats rich, I was in Italy, seemed like most of them lived on small farms or city apartments.

Sexist exists believe me. It mainly exists through sterotypes. Another thing i hate about america is child stars. They expect me to feel sorry for them for taking drugs after they get fired although they got more money when they were little then most people make in their lives. Dont worry i also hate america's lack of common sense and stupid cases. You can be sued for almost every reason for example giving someone cookies for free that they are not allergic to ill try to post a link.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/21/homework.suit.ap/index.html for kid suing school (what a dumb...)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/21/homework.suit.ap/index.html for giving cookies.

What kind of system would let either one win. The first if i believe correctly didnt happen yet but the latter won for the plantif

It might be a publicity stunt for them to say its illegal. Kinda like how if you tell someone something is hot they want to buy it. And theres a difference from it being illegal and networks self censoring themselves, which they do frequently to preserve their audience base and advertisers. Kinda like how some cable stations choose to allow cursing on air and some don't. The ones that do allow cursing ussually don't have advertisers who are worried about their image so they have more leeway.
I just checked Anime On Demand on cable and they have Neogenesis on their listings.

So they were lying on the commentary? Isn't that kind of against the point of a commentary?

Nope. You can get porn almost anywhere. On the net, adult video store, cable tv, you name it. Simply because it's not shown on free network tv does not constitute "sexual repression."

Hardly. Look at Europe where you can see nudity in commercials. Compared to them, the US is very sexually repressed. Have you failed to notice that people are expected to be ashamed of buying porn?

Maybe because it often is at least in part their fault? Anyway, in the US, "poverty" is a very relative term. You can be poor here (bottom 10% income) and still have color tv, dishwasher, clothes dryer, stereo. I've known more than a few immigrants from third world countries and they'd all agree that "poor" here is better than "middle class" in quite a few other places.

I've heard plenty of times of people being so poor here that they can't even afford food and have to go into prostitution.

As has been pointed out, you can get emergency care with no insurance. 85% of Americans are medically insured and most of the rest can afford what they need. Seems like a weak reason to "hate" the US.

Insurance doesn't pay for everything, though. It reduces costs and you still have to pay for it.

Actually, the US *is* the richest nation in the world, and that's how standard of living is measured. Know your terms before you contradict yourself.

Then why have I never seen it listed at the top except informally by patriots?

Bullshit. The women here economically and politically have as much opportunity as they do anywhere else. If we're "sexist" everyone is sexist.

Then explain the composition of congress.

Most Americans think that the rest of the world hates them because they are free. That, however, is dead wrong. I hate it for being too capitalist and two oppressive.

1. Sexual repression--The US has a truly terrible attitude towards sex. Whereas most of the first world has little problem with sex and censors it rarely, the FCC censors stuff all the time. Americans themselves are even more sex-negative than the government, demanding that censor more stuff than it already is.

2. Élitism--In the US, if you are poor, it is considered your fault and you wasted all your money on drugs. If you are rich, it is supposedly because you worked hard. As a result, the poor are treated far worse than those in other first world nations.

3. Healthcare--If you are poor, you don't have many options. If you break your leg and can't afford healthcare, you are SOL (how can you get a job when your leg is on the verge of falling off is beyond me, but Americans, conservatives in particular, expect you to do so).

4. Standards of Living--The US is supposed to be the richest nation in the world, yet its standard of living is below that of many European nations. Its life-expectancy is around 5 years less than that of Japan. Whether its due to rampant obesity or lack of concern for the poor, I don't know.

5. Propaganda--Everyday, I hear endlessly about how free the US is. If the US is so free, why do we need to be reminded of it? I am begining to wonder if the reason for all this propaganda is a lack of freedom that the gov wants us to ignore.

6. Sexism--The US is far behind the rest of the first world (except Japan, hardly something to be proud of) in terms of sexual equality. While few Americans are overtly sexist, it shows in the small number of women in political offices compared to the rest of the first world.

7. Stupid laws--There are so many stupid laws in the US. Do we really need laws against gay marriage, anal sex, pot, prostitution, etc.? Holland doesn't and it isn't collapsing into a dystopia. For a "free country", the US has a lot of truly stupid laws.

Of course, people are going to invariably post "It's better than in Iraq/China/Afghanistan/etc." That does not excuse anything!

Yet 13.7 of Americas immigrants are from Europe...

[QUOTE=Letila]Most Americans think that the rest of the world hates them because they are free. That, however, is dead wrong. I hate it for being too capitalist and two oppressive.

Really? I should think you should hate your spelling teacher. That person was "two" stupid!

Yet 13.7 of Americas immigrants are from Europe...
you can get .7 of a person?

I'm not gonna even try to bother reading the whole thing... here's how I see it (I'm American):

If you don't like American, that's fine. It's your view. I'm not gonna scream and yell and kick and cry because you don't like it. But I also think it's annoying that you go by stereo-typing American's and saying "Bush looks like a monkey!" Those two things are plain stupid. But hey, if you don't like America, fine... it'd be nice if you did, but it's not a huge deal to me.

If you don't like Americans, the people, well, I garantee you that you're stereo-typing us. You can't just do a blanket "I hate all American's because of XXXXX reasons", that's annoying and childish. But likely it you take up that position without opening up your eyes and seeing what's really there, you're not gonna change your view, even though it's ignorant.

I do urge you, though, to open your eyes, and if you can, take a trip to America. Not just NYC, or just LA, or just Washington DC, or just a region of America. America is extremely, EXTREMELY diverse. You should do a cross-country visit. Meet people from, and see how things are done, in rural America in the south west, urban life in the NE, political views in the SE, business life in the NW, and family values in the mid west. Trust me, if you're willing to open up your eyes, not be ignorant, and see what America is truly like, you cannot hate all of America, or all of its people. Ya, some things really are crappy in the American society, but every society, every country, has its problems. No country or people are perfect. This is Earth. We're humans. It's life.

Open your eyes and see before you talk. Thanks. :D
Nice :)
Thanks! :)

Bumping what I said!

And it doesn't bother you that it is illegal to show on American TV? I thought the US was supposed to be much freer than Japan.
Actually, two things, I think they managed to show the first two episodes on television, all that got changed was Misato's fridge (all the beers turned to soda or some shit like that) Also, I'm not certain but I think Anime Network manages to show Eva just fine, of course, its a premium channel. Now don't get me wrong, the censorship sucks (especially when they're doing stupid shit like taking all the guns out of One Piece, despite the fact that NOONE in that series ever dies), but there are a few rare places you can escape it (ADULT SWIM IS GOD!!!)

Really? I should think you should hate your spelling teacher. That person was "two" stupid!

I was typing very fast. I didn't bother to check my spelling.

So they were lying on the commentary? Isn't that kind of against the point of a commentary?


Then explain the composition of congress.


1. Publicity stunts are funny things but I can watch it here in NY on cable.

2. Maybe more men want to be in political office then woman? If everything had to be truly equal then we would have to somehow arrange it for half of a sanitation workers to be woman. They are sexist something like 99% of the people working on trucks are men.

Actually, two things, I think they managed to show the first two episodes on television, all that got changed was Misato's fridge (all the beers turned to soda or some shit like that)

Wait, you mean the cans were actually beer?! Why did they censor that?

Also, I'm not certain but I think Anime Network manages to show Eva just fine, of course, its a premium channel. Now don't get me wrong, the censorship sucks (especially when they're doing stupid shit like taking all the guns out of One Piece, despite the fact that NOONE in that series ever dies), but there are a few rare places you can escape it (ADULT SWIM IS GOD!!!)

I wouldn't say that. Adult Swim censors things to pieces. The cuts are often extremely obvious.

2. Maybe more men want to be in political office then woman? If everything had to be truly equal then we would have to somehow arrange it for half of a sanitation workers to be woman. They are sexist something like 99% of the people working on trucks are men.

So now you're blaming women?

Our country thinks itself "high and mighty" so we like to stick our unusually long noses into other countries' business and get ourselves into war. If our government valued the lives of people they would first, stop the wars, and second of all wuit holding the troops caught in the wars created by crooked politicians in those territories against their will.

you can get .7 of a person?


its a percentage system kinda like 2.5 kids.

I hate America because of their President George Bush, who as led them through hell and back. Acting as if America has the right to police the world. Which I throughly dislike.

And what is next eh?

Will he show off his muscles once more and invade Iran and North Korea, will they start a Nuclear War and finish us all off?


Well I don't see anybody else steppin up to the plate, buddy. First of all, we're presently cleaning up some of the scum left over from the Ba'ath regime in Iraq, so Iran doesn't have to worry for a while. By the time we do hit, our pals in Israel (the only friggin middle easterners with brains or self respect) will probably have taken out Persian nuclear capability like they did to Saddam in the mid 90s. Secondly, Korea is a friggin puppet of Communist China; everybody knows it ('cept of course the left-wingers here in the States). North Korea is not a worry to the US or the rest of the world so long as the US and China keep up trade relations (which we have been doing for quite some time).

Now. This thread is annoying for a number of reasons, mostly because it is a bunch of whiny Bush-bashing pinkos, but there are other reasons. However, the biggest thing here that bugs me is that the foreigners think they have the inborn right to stick their overly large European noses into OUR business and bitch and moan and carry on about how horrible America is, when the only reason they bitch and moan is cause they live in left-wing nanny states and are too brainwashed to bitch and moan about that.

Theres my two cents. Commies. *burns French flag and rainbow banner*

Wait, you mean the cans were actually beer?! Why did they censor that?



I wouldn't say that. Adult Swim censors things to pieces. The cuts are often extremely obvious.

Adult swim edits out the naked scenes and if they are important to the plot line they either take out the nipples or just draw a bra on the girl.

close enough to what im saying to not need to argue with it

Well, yes, but I'm going to anyway :p It's a subtle difference, but an important one (to me, anyway, since I live here, vote here and am interested in electing people who understand how to deal with this mess). I get the sense, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you're arguing from a perspective -- one I hear a lot from Europeans in particular -- that 9/11 was the result of the negative perceptions of Americans that developed as a result of the compounding effect of the U.S.'s dirty deeds abroad. You know, as in, "based on their record, Americans are hypocrites who support dictators and terrorists, so let's GET 'em!" I won't argue that this perception exists; however, I think actual terrorist acts have a lot more to do with the specific effects American policy has had in specific countries. Osama could try to bolster his argument against America by dredging up, say, Guatemala, but what really matters to him is that the U.S. has propped up a monarchy he disagrees with, yet which, paradoxically, is responsible for producing people like him. That's on us -- but it has less to do with people in the world looking at history and accurately judging us to be a malevolent force, and more to do with us getting involved in the internal affairs of truly volatile societies, and then doing things that make them even more volatile. When we do, that volatility might, depending on the circumstances, be visited upon us. That's not so much a lesson in morality or ethics in international affairs (which seems to be the popular European interpretation, as far as I can tell) as much as it is about prudence, pragmatism, and the increasingly inescapable interconnectedness of the modern world.

That's why I don't like the moralistic explanation of 9/11. At best, it can lead to the belief that just being good and well-intentioned and non-interfering will make these sorts of problems go away (which it clearly can't; Britain hasn't messed around with the mideast since probably the 50s, and France vehemently opposes virtually every U.S. policy, but that hasn't stopped al qaeda from targetting both of them). At worst, it makes any and all enemies of U.S. policy into "freedom fighters" by suggesting that they're motivated by an ideological struggle against a great historical and imperial evil, rather than simply actors participating in the local conflicts that U.S. hegemony has stirred up in their own societies. The U.S. certainly does need to clean up its act ethically (just a short list: "collateral damage", torture, refusal to let genocidal maniacs be prosecuted, environmental cowardliness), but being on even our best behavior would not have stopped 9/11 and won't stop future attacks. Only good judgment will do that.

Nope. You can get porn almost anywhere. On the net, adult video store, cable tv, you name it. Simply because it's not shown on free network tv does not constitute "sexual repression."



Maybe because it often is at least in part their fault? Anyway, in the US, "poverty" is a very relative term. You can be poor here (bottom 10% income) and still have color tv, dishwasher, clothes dryer, stereo. I've known more than a few immigrants from third world countries and they'd all agree that "poor" here is better than "middle class" in quite a few other places.



As has been pointed out, you can get emergency care with no insurance. 85% of Americans are medically insured and most of the rest can afford what they need. Seems like a weak reason to "hate" the US.



Actually, the US *is* the richest nation in the world, and that's how standard of living is measured. Know your terms before you contradict yourself.



To remind those who are less than observant like yourself from forgetting. Perhaps they need to ramp it up a bit. :)

Seriously, I hardly hear any such "propaganda" and I read the news on a regular basis. Maybe you should cite some sources that the "propaganda" comes from.



Bullshit. The women here economically and politically have as much opportunity as they do anywhere else. If we're "sexist" everyone is sexist.



Most of those are illegal in other first world nations as well. Do you "hate" the rest of the first world as much as you claim you do the US?



I don't know what each of those 12 nations are but 1) countries like Britain, France, and Germany wound up ranking below the US and 2) do you realize that Ireland, the number one on the list, outlaws abortion in most cases? Seems that by your narrow standards, Ireland would be more "oppressive" than the country for which you claim to have such distaste.



Well other than the fact that the entire first world is capitalist and that thus far you have not demonstrated any true oppression in the US, I'd say you have a lot more work to do before you're gonna convince anyone of your case. Better luck next time.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. This is an example of a patriot i believe the term is.

America rich i dont know what you have been smoking. America is a few billion dollars in national debt all started by woodrow if you do the underlying cause. Yes i know they can get out of it in a couple of years but that doesnt change facts

America is sexist. Everyone else is sexist. Just because they get more rights doesnt mean that it isnt sexist it just means its less sexist.

America is militaristically weaker then East Europe and Britain. If you saw the history channel then you would know that. The history channel was in america. The american army said themselves that they trained their army so advanced that they need outside help for all these missions and where do they get it from you may ask, i respond why pmcs (mercenaries) who are far superior to american troops.

Adult swim edits out the naked scenes and if they are important to the plot line they either take out the nipples or just draw a bra on the girl.

Exactly my point! See, didn't I say the US was sexually repressed?

Um..no we don't. We have had a decrease of crimes in 2004. Where did you get this BS from?

This Bullshit would be fact from:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations.

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.

"After Australia and England and Wales, the highest prevalence of crime was in Holland (25 percent), Sweden (25 percent) and Canada (24 percent). The United States, despite its high murder rate, was among the middle ranking countries with a 21 percent victimization rate," the London Telegraph said.

You can see the actual data here: http://www.unicri.it/icvs/statistics/index_stats.htm

On page 2, you can see The Netherlands @25.2 for 2000. I presume that they will have more modern numbers soon.

For what it is worth, I could not find *any* stats for crime in Holland more recent than this, but I found many other sites using these (2000) numbers.

Exactly how much of a reduction are you talking about?

Yet 13.7 of Americas immigrants are from Europe...

Percent? Or Million?

Either way, European immigrants were fleeing to the United States because of the oppression EUROPEAN governments were having them go through.

I would also like to state, that, if it weren't for the United States, Europe would be completely overrun by:

A.) The Soviets
B.) The Nazis
or
C.) The Kaiser

Take your pick. Each way it's equally bad. You Europeans seem to forget that America saved your skins not once, but TWICE, and had the strength necessary to prevent having to save your skins a THIRD time.

Exactly my point! See, didn't I say the US was sexually repressed?

Are you ever going to admit you were wrong about the Neon Genesis bit, or are you going to stick with the rhetoric?

I was typing very fast. I didn't bother to check my spelling.

Using "Two" for "Too" isn't a spelling error (especially when both appear in the same sentence, one used correctly and one incorrectly). That usage is a thinking error- kind of like the rest of your post. :headbang:

I dont think that other people hate America because of its freedom, that is only the Bush supporters.

I'm not gonna even try to bother reading the whole thing... here's how I see it (I'm American):

If you don't like American, that's fine. It's your view. I'm not gonna scream and yell and kick and cry because you don't like it. But I also think it's annoying that you go by stereo-typing American's and saying "Bush looks like a monkey!" Those two things are plain stupid. But hey, if you don't like America, fine... it'd be nice if you did, but it's not a huge deal to me.

If you don't like Americans, the people, well, I garantee you that you're stereo-typing us. You can't just do a blanket "I hate all American's because of XXXXX reasons", that's annoying and childish. But likely it you take up that position without opening up your eyes and seeing what's really there, you're not gonna change your view, even though it's ignorant.

I do urge you, though, to open your eyes, and if you can, take a trip to America. Not just NYC, or just LA, or just Washington DC, or just a region of America. America is extremely, EXTREMELY diverse. You should do a cross-country visit. Meet people from, and see how things are done, in rural America in the south west, urban life in the NE, political views in the SE, business life in the NW, and family values in the mid west. Trust me, if you're willing to open up your eyes, not be ignorant, and see what America is truly like, you cannot hate all of America, or all of its people. Ya, some things really are crappy in the American society, but every society, every country, has its problems. No country or people are perfect. This is Earth. We're humans. It's life.

Open your eyes and see before you talk. Thanks. :D
Actually, I'd skip the SE, I'm currently writing from there, the SE will just re-affirm everything she's saying >.<

Percent? Or Million?

Either way, European immigrants were fleeing to the United States because of the oppression EUROPEAN governments were having them go through.

I would also like to state, that, if it weren't for the United States, Europe would be completely overrun by:

A.) The Soviets
B.) The Nazis
or
C.) The Kaiser

Take your pick. Each way it's equally bad. You Europeans seem to forget that America saved your skins not once, but TWICE, and had the strength necessary to prevent having to save your skins a THIRD time.

Exactly, Id like to ask Europe, what harm have we ever done to you?

Secondly, Korea is a friggin puppet of Communist China; everybody knows it ('cept of course the left-wingers here in the States). North Korea is not a worry to the US or the rest of the world so long as the US and China keep up trade relations (which we have been doing for quite some time).

This is a dangerous misperception. First, because the threat isn't nuclear action from North Korea, but rather (a) conventional military force delivered under the cover of nuclear protection or, even worse and even more likely (b) proliferation, which the North Koreans are well known to already be involved in. Secondly, because they aren't so much "puppets" as they are under the historical protection of the Chinese government, and were at one time a client state. But the Chinese, judging from their media's uncharacteristically critical response to NK's declaration as a nuclear power, and their unease at having to absorb large numbers of NK refugees, are lately having difficulty reigning in this so-called "puppet."

Are you ever going to admit you were wrong about the Neon Genesis bit, or are you going to stick with the rhetoric?

OK, I was wrong (or rather the DVD commentary was wrong), but still, how can you defend this kind of censorship?

I wish so many anti-American wankers weren't coming to live in my country, just so they can soak off the US taxpayer and complain.

Percent? Or Million?

Either way, European immigrants were fleeing to the United States because of the oppression EUROPEAN governments were having them go through.

I would also like to state, that, if it weren't for the United States, Europe would be completely overrun by:

A.) The Soviets
B.) The Nazis
or
C.) The Kaiser

Take your pick. Each way it's equally bad. You Europeans seem to forget that America saved your skins not once, but TWICE, and had the strength necessary to prevent having to save your skins a THIRD time.

America saved europe you are truely not to bright now arent you. Europe is the reason for america. Kaiser wasnt bad hell he was alot better then wilson who burnt all german music such as beethoven. Germany saved america, france saved america.

America never saved europe. WW1 the allies had the tank not the machine gun which was the opposite for the central. The allies would have eventually won.

In ww2 America did nothing to good except dday. Where were they during the first years. The nuke was made by a german in america first since the jewish guy sabotaged it. The british were doing all they could and would have eventually won since its a damnable island.

The kaiser wasnt bad at all. It was serbia who started ww1. There is a difference between starting something and getting blamed for it.

OK, I was wrong (or rather the DVD commentary was wrong), but still, how can you defend this kind of censorship?


Because I live in NYC. The censorship on TV doesnt get to me because I get up off of my ass and go outside. Nothing better than real life. Keep in mind the country was founded by religious folks. Dont like it? Go back in time and kill off the religious folk. Or something practical, run for office. Campaign and make a difference. Dont complain on why you dislike the US for sexual repression because honestly, some places its not as bad as others.

Because I live in NYC. The censorship on TV doesnt get to me because I get up off of my ass and go outside. Nothing better than real life. Keep in mind the country was founded by religious folks. Dont like it? Go back in time and kill off the religious folk. Or something practical, run for office. Campaign and make a difference. Dont complain on why you dislike the US for sexual repression because honestly, some places its not as bad as others.

America shouldn't deny or try to change their history. America follows europe and europe was religious and look now they are the number one area.

Religious people arent oppressive. They dont make you change your religion all the time most of them could care less about converting.

Because I live in NYC. The censorship on TV doesnt get to me because I get up off of my ass and go outside. Nothing better than real life. Keep in mind the country was founded by religious folks. Dont like it? Go back in time and kill off the religious folk. Or something practical, run for office. Campaign and make a difference. Dont complain on why you dislike the US for sexual repression because honestly, some places its not as bad as others.

I think you're missing the point. They shouldn't censor it at all. I can't campaign because I am an anarchist and my platform wouldn't win, anyway.

Religious people arent oppressive. They dont make you change your religion all the time most of them could care less about converting.

Because of religious people, Neon Genesis Evangelion, one of the greatest anime series ever made, cannot be seen uncensored in the US without filesharing (which is illegal). Not to mention being condemned for buying porn.

you can get the Japanese Import version of neogenesis. Those arent changed at all. And they are better because they don't have bad dubbing or modernization of conversations and thereby changing the general idea of the conversation around.

Most American Dubbers don't censor their translations unless they are trying to get it on TV.

America saved europe you are truely not to bright now arent you. Europe is the reason for america. Kaiser wasnt bad hell he was alot better then wilson who burnt all german music such as beethoven. Germany saved america, france saved america.

America never saved europe. WW1 the allies had the tank not the machine gun which was the opposite for the central. The allies would have eventually won.

In ww2 America did nothing to good except dday. Where were they during the first years. The nuke was made by a german in america first since the jewish guy sabotaged it. The british were doing all they could and would have eventually won since its a damnable island.

The kaiser wasnt bad at all. It was serbia who started ww1. There is a difference between starting something and getting blamed for it.


Wow, you need a history check up. Here ya go!

#1 The 'tank' in WWI was a joke. It wasn't capable of doing just about anything useful since its armor wasn't good enough to last against an enemy artillery barrage. It was just a slightly better APC really. Germany would probably have managed to conquer France if two conditions were met: #1 Russia pulls out of the war (which they did thanks to the German's sending Lenin back from Switzerland) and #2 the U.S doesn't bring up fresh soldiers. While U.S soldiers saw very little action the fact that they were fresh and ready to go greatly contributed to crushing German morale, which led to calls for peace.

#2 America did alot more then D-Day my good person: at the time of WWII America possessed greater industrial capacity then all three of the Axis powers combined. This great industrial might led to an out-pouring of munitions, supplies, weapons and vehicles to Britain. During the critical months of 1940 the United States gave to Britain 20 Destroyers and over 150,000 rifles (and that was just one transaction of rifles). The United States also used political pressure (at Churhill's request) to prevent Vichy France from declaring war on the U.K, which could've turned the tide at sea. Britain simply didn't have the industrial capacity to stand up to the Axis alone and might very well have fallen victim to a triumphant Operation Sea Lion if it had not been for U.S manufacturing and the Lend-Lease Act.

#3 Austria-Hungary shares the most blame for starting WWI, not Serbia. Austria issued an ultimatum to the Serbian government, which the Serbian government accepted completely without delay. The Austrians had, however, been hoping to provoke a war with this ultimatum. When this failed Austria decided to invade anyway. This also means that Austria was the 1st nation to declare and enter a state of War while Serbia was the 2nd, Germany the 3rd and Russia the 4th.

I think you're missing the point. They shouldn't censor it at all. I can't campaign because I am an anarchist and my platform wouldn't win, anyway.

No, you're missing the point. The American majority at large doesnt mind censor if it means not showing what can be considered inappropriate matter on TV.

Yeah, but how many singing penis commericals do you see in America, or how about television shows with nudist sky-divers (sans blurr) face it, there is more nudity in a single commercial in europe than there is all day on american television (short of those 17 channels)

Granted, few to none.

Not really. The FCC only has juisdiction over the airwaves. They do not censor cable tv or satelite. This is why Cinemax is called "Skinimax" (and that's not one of those 17)... I see all manner of sex on IFC and Sundance.

Also, artistic nudity is left in alone: for example, when PBS shows the Zeffareli version of Romeo & Juliet (1968), the brief nudity is in tact.

All told, nudity is no big deal for me.

America never saved europe. WW1 the allies had the tank not the machine gun which was the opposite for the central. The allies would have eventually won.

.

Germany saved America? When?

The Allies didn't have machine guns? Can you say Vickers?

Wow, you need a history check up. Here ya go!

#1 The 'tank' in WWI was a joke. It wasn't capable of doing just about anything useful since its armor wasn't good enough to last against an enemy artillery barrage. It was just a slightly better APC really. Germany would probably have managed to conquer France if two conditions were met: #1 Russia pulls out of the war (which they did thanks to the German's sending Lenin back from Switzerland) and #2 the U.S doesn't bring up fresh soldiers. While U.S soldiers saw very little action the fact that they were fresh and ready to go greatly contributed to crushing German morale, which led to calls for peace.

#2 America did alot more then D-Day my good person: at the time of WWII America possessed greater industrial capacity then all three of the Axis powers combined. This great industrial might led to an out-pouring of munitions, supplies, weapons and vehicles to Britain. During the critical months of 1940 the United States gave to Britain 20 Destroyers and over 150,000 rifles (and that was just one transaction of rifles). The United States also used political pressure (at Churhill's request) to prevent Vichy France from declaring war on the U.K, which could've turned the tide at sea. Britain simply didn't have the industrial capacity to stand up to the Axis alone and might very well have fallen victim to a triumphant Operation Sea Lion if it had not been for U.S manufacturing and the Lend-Lease Act.

#3 Austria-Hungary shares the most blame for starting WWI, not Serbia. Austria issued an ultimatum to the Serbian government, which the Serbian government accepted completely without delay. The Austrians had, however, been hoping to provoke a war with this ultimatum. When this failed Austria decided to invade anyway. This also means that Austria was the 1st nation to declare and enter a state of War while Serbia was the 2nd, Germany the 3rd and Russia the 4th.

Actually, nothing else can stand up against an artillery barage today, either. :D

Ayep.

Sort of, but Serbia balked on one of the articles. *That* was used for the excuse for war.

People skills? Where? I don't see any...

Look kids, cussing each other out and attempting to come up with witty insults to throw at the opposition is not going to convince anyone. You might as well go preach to the choir.

Whatever happened to "peace, love, and happiness"?

People, I hate to use such a trite question, but... can't we all just get along?

Oh, and Letila, congradulations on starting a heated argument.

Also, I would like to point out that EVERY nation has issues and that if we all lived in Utopia it would get pretty boring after a while. Diversity and adversity keeps life from becoming mundane.

Summary of post: Love each other. Don't hate.

Summary of post: Love each other. Don't hate.

But hate can keep you warm when your alone.

Actually, nothing else can stand up against an artillery barage today, either. :D

Ayep.

Sort of, but Serbia balked on one of the articles. *That* was used for the excuse for war.

Really? I never knew Serbia balked on one of the articles. Do you know which one? You've got me curious now.

Great. I had the poor luck to be born on some plot of land on the wrong continent...and everyone hates me! Nevermind my own personal believes and values.

I give up.

Great. I had the poor luck to be born on some plot of land on the wrong continent...and everyone hates me! Nevermind my own personal believes and values.

I give up.

[sarcasm] So you're French? [end sarcasm]

Really? I never knew Serbia balked on one of the articles. Do you know which one? You've got me curious now.

I'm using Williamson's "Austria Hungary & the Origins of the First World War". Page 204 in my (1991) edition:

"In that interval, Pasic and his collegues drafted a masterful response that amazed even the leadership in Vienna. Serbia's reply was conciliatory, open, almost apologetic, but unyielding on the fundamental question of a joint investigation of the conspiracy."

I'm using Williamson's "Austria Hungary & the Origins of the First World War". Page 204 in my (1991) edition:

"In that interval, Pasic and his collegues drafted a masterful response that amazed even the leadership in Vienna. Serbia's reply was conciliatory, open, almost apologetic, but unyielding on the fundamental question of a joint investigation of the conspiracy."

Aha alright. Hmm, I never knew Serbia's reply was against that. Thanks!

I grew up disliking the U.S. but I now understand that there are corrupt politicians in all countries and when George W. finishes bankrupting the U.S. for his own financial gain the world will be a much worse place than it is now. I hope that the citizens of the U.S. rise up and overthrow the Bush regime and rebuild their corrupt political process from the ground up and become the example of democracy they appear to have always wanted to be, but were sadly never able to achieve...

Remember that not all the U.S. voted for Bush and out of the ones who did, many did it because the media gave them no real information about what sort of person George W. really is. They saw Iraq as a victory instead of the massive failure that it is. They saw terrorism as a threat when the reality is that it isn't as bigger danger to them as global warming. The believed the lies about Kerry spread by Bush and then believed that Republicans controlling the voting process in several states was not worth looking into.

Any of us can be lied to, it happens to people of all ages and all races, don't blame the U.S. for it, blame the republicans and the media, they are responsible for the mess the world is heading into after the U.S. economy eventually gets flushed down the toilet of history and the U.S. is led by its despot leader hell bent on controlling the world.

"And Satan will welcome George W. and his Christian followers from middle America with open arms for helping him in his vision of a hell on earth."

Just my 2c please don't shoot me :)

Y'know, being fairly left of center, I agree with most if not all of the criticisms of my country put forth by the Europeans and other foreigners here. But I am disturbed by their vitriol and downright enthusiasm, as well as, as 31 points out, this bizarre attitude that somehow, we should be held to account to them because our own internal politics (we're not even talking about our international behavior here!) differ from theirs in ways which they find unacceptable. I truly hope this is just the result of their weariness at having to respond to the constant stream of propaganda our ultra-nationalist wackos spew at them, and not some unhealthy, obsessive belief that we owe them an explanation not being more like Europe (or worse, that Europe is some sort of gold standard against which all other Western countries should be judged). Surely, you're not just doing what too many Americans do, but in reverse -- focusing on a foreign country's perceived inadequecies in order to make yourselves feel superior?

Guys, Europe has its own political culture, and so does the U.S. This is not a crime. Repeat after me: "Western" doesn't have to mean "the same". So we don't like soccer. So we're a bit on the prudish side. So we never really embraced socialism. These are not things we have to "justify" to anyone, and most importantly, they are not things you need to concern yourselves with. Those of us who have a problem with some of these aspects of our culture and want to change them (well, except soccer... I make no apologies for that) are not going to be helped by your increasingly joyously hateful rhetoric.

And another thing, really, why are you so obsessed? The U.S. is nowhere near as powerful as it is so often made out to be by you guys. In virtually every area other than our military might -- the world economy, politics, the reach and appeal of American popular culture, "moral leadership" -- we've been losing ground for years, since at least the end of the cold war. And this process has sped up and become more noticeable during the Bush administration. Neocon triumphalism aside, this is the truth of the matter. So.. what gives? Our nutjob politicians invade one mideastern hellhole too many and you've gotta be experts on the FCC now?

*de-lurks*

People from YOUR country, i.e. "family" groups, are trying to alter the outcome of a Parliamentary vote in MY country on whether or not WE would like homosexuals to be allowed to legally marry from coast to coast to coast, through campaigns of harassment, funding groups in our country opposed to the proposed legislation, as well as political parties-in-opposition to the seated government.

The Government of YOUR country, speaking through US ambassador Paul Cellucci, TOLD US we were TO BE INVOLVED in YOUR country's ludicrous "Missile Defence Initiative" - that our leaders were to make an announcement later this year to that effect, although that would be political suicide for any seated Canadian government, especially in light of the latest failure of this desperate ploy to keep US arms manufacturers afloat in this post-Cold War era.

Don't try telling a Canadian that YOUR cultural values aren't anything that we as non-Americans, need not concern ourselves with. We've had to put up with you people and your backwater social tunnelvision for generations. How dare your people and your government BOTH attempt to erode OUR society and our values?

*slides back into the ether*

I happen to be an American citizen who was born in Japan and lived in Germany for three years. I have seen first hand many countries with 'more liberties' than the US, but I sill would rather live here than anywhere else.
I must agree with some posts about our President; I think he is a massive chimpanzee with the intelligence of an ant. He is incoherent and generally a liar. In fact, a great political satire in the US, called "The Daily Show", mocked Bush with a "Bush vs. Bush (http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.jhtml?player=realplayer&type=v&quality=high&reposid=/multimedia/tds/stewart/jon_7131.html)" debate. Our "horrible American censorship" didn't keep that from airing. Believe me, I am no fan of the FCC, but the censorship is what the people in this country want. Consider also that in the US, the government does not own the means of broadcasting. The USA is much more concerned with privacy than other countries, mainly due to the significantly lower population density. Living in Japan and then Germany, I can truly attest to the fact that this censorship is not a product of corrupt, opressive politicians, but rather a scientific statistic. Also, America is ranked first in standard of living, by virtue of the highest GDP. Having lived in and traveled extensively throughout Europe, I personally know that the American people are much more productive and hard working than any European country. In America, it is common for full time employees to work over the 40 hour standard. In Europe, such is unheard of.
People accuse the US of being "too capitalist," but they fail to reallize that in the US our tax rate is significantly lower than the rates in Europe. Even compared with our neighbor, Canada, the US tax rate is much lower. As for those who accuse the US of nursing the wealthy, they fail to reallize that in America, the wealthy pay the majority of the taxes. There is not a flat tax rate here; rather, there is a tiered system in which the wealthy pay a higher percentage of their income. Those who state that our impoverished are treated as drug addicts who did something to get in that position have obviously never truly experienced this. In the US a large percentage of the poverty stricken population does have issues in drugs and crime, or perhaps even both. The US is not like Europe, where the birthrate is negative. The birthrate is still a positive number here. Moreover, the poor often produce many children, more than the wealthier. This is a simple fact and cannot be disputed.
Now many Americans feel that racism in our country is bad. Yet they don't consider that in Europe, the problem is much greater. In America, the hardships of Black slavery and segregation cannot compare to Nazism, antisemitism, ethnic cleansing, "pure blood" and a host of other ignorant practices in Europe. In America, a Muslim and a Christian and a Jew can all live side by side and still say hello to each other when retreiving their newspapers in the morning. Such a practice is almost unseen in Europe, Asia, or Africa.
Now to those who have the gall to state that we in America have no freedom, this author states: in America we fight and have always fought for our freedoms, and we truly fight to remain so today. Our forefathers did not give in to a king across the sea. And though you may not like to admit it, if you live in democracy and unless you are a British subject, you probably owe some credit to the US for your freedoms.
Now our government isn't perfect (in my opinion, this present government is far from perfect), although one must consider that Bush won a second term by 51 percent (don't ask about that electoral college crap, it's hard to explain). A 51 - 49 poll clearly shows that Bush does have a majority support, but nearly half of the Americans do not approve of him. In many cases, those who voted for Bush did it simply because the alternative in their view was worse.
Bush has certainly made bad calls (mostly bad calls, in my opinion.) Keep in mind that the entire government, not just the President, but also the Congress and the Supreme Court, make important decisions daily. One problem in our country is with the Congress; it is enslaved unto special interest groups and corporate entities. Those who actually VOTE the officials into office are less represented than a corporation that pitched in a few hundred grand to the campaign fund. On the other hand, European leaders make much shadier deals than Americans to become elected. Jaques Chirac vocally renounced the US invasion of Iraq, simply because he wanted to sell Iraq airplanes. Now, I am not advocting the war (although I am 100% behind the troops), but telling the US that they are wrong to remove a dictator, simply because the French President (who seems to think that France really has a military), wants to sell some airplanes? That is outrageous! Us US citizens are well aware of the problems at home. I have not talked to a single person who unilaterally agrees with every decision this or any other President has made. On the other hand, other nations have troubles of their own, and unless you are from Scandanavia, you should take a look in the mirror before pinning yet more hatred on the US. Europeans seem to find scapegoats for everything. Looking through history, it is quite clear. A man in a village caught a strange sickness; "this must have been caused by witches." A Yugoslavian anarchist shot the arch-duke; "Germany must be to blame for World War I." Germany is in dire economic conditions due to reparations payed out after WWI; "The Jews must be to blame for such a catastrophe." The US (not the European neighbors) defeats the USSR in the Cold War; "the oppressive USA is ruthless and cold; American mothers eat their children."

Really, give it a rest. This is how ignorant people sound. Please, just get over yourselves and your inferiority complex. Then maybe Europe would have some chance of emerging as some semblence of an economic power.

I grew up disliking the U.S. but I now understand that there are corrupt politicians in all countries and when George W. finishes bankrupting the U.S. for his own financial gain the world will be a much worse place than it is now. I hope that the citizens of the U.S. rise up and overthrow the Bush regime and rebuild their corrupt political process from the ground up and become the example of democracy they appear to have always wanted to be, but were sadly never able to achieve...

Remember that not all the U.S. voted for Bush and out of the ones who did, many did it because the media gave them no real information about what sort of person George W. really is. They saw Iraq as a victory instead of the massive failure that it is. They saw terrorism as a threat when the reality is that it isn't as bigger danger to them as global warming. The believed the lies about Kerry spread by Bush and then believed that Republicans controlling the voting process in several states was not worth looking into.

Any of us can be lied to, it happens to people of all ages and all races, don't blame the U.S. for it, blame the republicans and the media, they are responsible for the mess the world is heading into after the U.S. economy eventually gets flushed down the toilet of history and the U.S. is led by its despot leader hell bent on controlling the world.

"And Satan will welcome George W. and his Christian followers from middle America with open arms for helping him in his vision of a hell on earth."

Just my 2c please don't shoot me :)

Well now yer talkin sense! Though some of the stuff foreigners say about American ignorance is true (there really is a cultural component to it; we've always preferred our own bullshit to the truth), it's really annoying to me that our current insanity is perceived, especially in Europe, as thought it were some uniquely American failing, something the rest of the world is somehow too bright or too 'with it' to fall for. If the European historical experience teaches nothing else, it's that power corrupts to the Nth degree, that even the smartest, most progressive nations can be reduced to ignorance and barbarity if the conditions are right. And that, even after that, it's still possible to pick up the pieces and head back in the right direction.

if you don't like America, then why do you live here?

*de-lurks*

People from YOUR country, i.e. "family" groups, are trying to alter the outcome of a Parliamentary vote in MY country on whether or not WE would like homosexuals to be allowed to legally marry from coast to coast to coast, through campaigns of harassment, funding groups in our country opposed to the proposed legislation, as well as political parties-in-opposition to the seated government.

The Government of YOUR country, speaking through US ambassador Paul Cellucci, TOLD US we were TO BE INVOLVED in YOUR country's ludicrous "Missile Defence Initiative" - that our leaders were to make an announcement later this year to that effect, although that would be political suicide for any seated Canadian government, especially in light of the latest failure of this desperate ploy to keep US arms manufacturers afloat in this post-Cold War era.

I agree, that's shit. It's also ashame they're doing stuff like that throughout MY country too, and that we've had and will continue to deal with the brunt of it their idiocy to a degree absolutely unimaginable in your country. However, I was addressing Europeans, not Canadians, and I was talking about internal social issues and political culture, not international affairs (missile defense), as apparently everyone who has yet responded to this post seems to have ignored.

We've had to put up with you people and your backwater social tunnelvision for generations.

Golly gee, nice way to talk to someone who obviously from his previous post already agrees with your positions on social issues. But hey, just being from south of the border makes me the same as one of those toothless backwater banjo-strumming inbreds, doesn't it? That's just too much to "put up with"! God forbid you should have to even be aware of your southern neighbor's differences. I mean, if it weren't for us and our barbarity, you'd have all kinds of wonderful stuff that could never happen here, like universal health care, real environmental protection, ...oh, wait. Our "tunnelvision" hasn't stopped you from building a liberal paradise that every die-hard blue-stater envies. You attribute to the U.S. an almost godlike ability to "erode your society and values," but somehow, to date, we've succeeded at neither.

I agree with everything the first post said plus i hate americas terrible capitalism.

I agree with everything the first post said plus i hate americas terrible capitalism.

I wonder if you also hate your capitalist invented computer, using capitalist developed software, connecting with capitalist internet?

Nevermind I won't burden your bumper sticker slogan mind, you don't have to answer that question.

Well said! I agree with you 100% on your post, Einsteinian States

Sorry, but you are SOL. In the US it is illegal to be denied medical service from any public hospital. Basically, if you show up at the ER with a broken leg, they must treat you (even if you can't pay for it, and they know you can't pay for it). Billions each year go to pay for people who can't pay their hospital bills.

My mom had a tumor in her ankle and she had many surgeries to try and scrape it out. The final surgery, before the amputation, was an ankle fusion. This, to my understanding, is where they take out a lot of the inside of the ankle and then fuse it together with bolts. This was her second ankle fusion in two years. She had this done in John's Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland (three hours from our home). This surgery was more painful than the amputation of her foot (below the knee) that she had just 11 months later. Two days after the surgery, in the middle of the night (2am on a weeknight), they told her her insurance would no longer cover her stay there and she had to 'get out'. Keep in mind, this hospital is considered one of the best in the country. My elderly grandfather had to drive the three hours in the middle of the night to come and pick her up in Baltimore. They sent her home with nothing more than Tylenol 3.

This is good healthcare? No, it isn't legal for a hospital to turn someone away in this country. However, people who cannot afford a hospital's services are often treated the way my mom was. So many families go so far into debt because of their medical bills it's insane. Maybe you're right about "Billions" of dollars going to pay for medical bills each year. All I know is that no one ever helped my mom out and I've never known anyone who had problems paying their medical bills get help from the government.

This is good healthcare? No, it isn't legal for a hospital to turn someone away in this country. However, people who cannot afford a hospital's services are often treated the way my mom was. So many families go so far into debt because of their medical bills it's insane. Maybe you're right about "Billions" of dollars going to pay for medical bills each year. All I know is that no one ever helped my mom out and I've never known anyone who had problems paying their medical bills get help from the government.

After I lost my job (which had nothing to do w/ W. BTW) The local hospital CANCELLED our debt even though we were making regular payments and we pay less on Medicaid than we did w/ insurance. We are also treated very nicely when we go to the Dr's office or the emergency room.

Then explain the composition of congress.

Feminists have long maintained that feminism is not "about the choices women make, but the freedom to make said choices." This implies that a lack of equality of result cannot be used as an indicator of a lack of equality of opportunity. The simplest possible explantion is that the women of this country are simply not as inclined as they may be in some other countries to hold political office. However, be sure to note that of those women who DO hold office (the Hillarys, the Feinsteinns, the Boxers), they also wield considerable influence.

Also note that female involvement in the American workforce is as good as anyone elses. And more females as a proportion of the population are in higher education here than anywhere else in the world. This is what you call sexism? This is what you call a reason to "hate" the US?

Hardly. Look at Europe where you can see nudity in commercials. Compared to them, the US is very sexually repressed. Have you failed to notice that people are expected to be ashamed of buying porn?

Actually not everywhere in Europe can you see nudity in commercials. And Europeans are not quite as sexually free as you might think. Here's a story on protests on underwear ads

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3788527.stm

and another on Armani ads

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3706075.stm

Finally, you claim that people in America are "expected" to be ashamed of buying porn. 1) Social expectations are not a true form of oppression/repression, because if you so firmly believe that you are right to buy porn, you would not be bothered by social expectations, nor are societal expectations binding towards your behavior in any way, and 2) buying too much porn is probably a bad investment anyway. There's decent free stuff out there.

And you can watch an R rated movie without being "condemned."

I've heard plenty of times of people being so poor here that they can't even afford food and have to go into prostitution.

Heresay is not a very scientific measuring tool. At any rate, the number of those who sell their souls for subsistence is extremely low. Most people prefer food stamps.

Insurance doesn't pay for everything, though. It reduces costs and you still have to pay for it.

As well as people should pay for it. It keeps them from overfilling doctors' schedules with frivolous visits. The bottom line, insurance makes healthcare quite affordable and as I pointed out the vast majority have it, and even those who don't have it generally can pay for what they need. That's what's important. And nationalized healthcare isn't exactly free either.

Then why have I never seen it listed at the top except informally by patriots?

The GDP/capita in the US in 2003 was $37,800. Find me a single country who had higher. Here's a hint: you won't find one.

America rich i dont know what you have been smoking. America is a few billion dollars in national debt all started by woodrow if you do the underlying cause. Yes i know they can get out of it in a couple of years but that doesnt change facts

In FACT, "rich" means economic strength, most often measured by GDP and GDP per capita. On both counts, the US is on top of the world. Try *that* on for FACT.

BTW plenty of relatively strong, developed economies are in debt or running deficits (France and Japan come to mind). That doesn't mean their not rich.

America is sexist. Everyone else is sexist. Just because they get more rights doesnt mean that it isnt sexist it just means its less sexist.

Maybe. But you still miss the point. The poster who started this thread claims he "hates" America based on this sexism. However he cannot logically do so unless he also hated, oh, about the entire world. At least not without being hypocritical. That was the point I was trying to make.

America is militaristically weaker then East Europe and Britain....


I assume you meant to say "militarily weaker." Fair enough. However that was over 200 years ago. For your information, we are not very interested in 200 years ago. We are interested in today. And also FYI, when used to describe the present, your sentence is definitely untrue.

1. Sexual repression

Agree.



2. Élitism

I think Americans are just pissed off, because everyone wants us to be something because they think they're morally right. I think many Americans are very generous, and some aren't,...but the worlds standards or a nation standards shouldn't be dictate (unless absolutely required), IMO.



3. Healthcare

Bring it back to the 50's, where healthcare could be door to door again...thus privatized, and heavily promote private donations. Roll-back on Welfare in comparison to private donations. Replace waste with actual results.



4. Standards of Living

Probably due to stress. 7000k dollars more per GDP= more stress. Time will change that, to some degree...hopefully.

5. Propaganda

Like every other country, even more so...we got the money to do it.

6. Sexism

I don't agree with the current ways of politics, so I couldn't really answer this.

7. Stupid laws

Oh yeah! *Cool-Aid guy jumps out*

Hurah for Einstienian States and Kronik. Thank you for providing the defence the US deserves.
*applause*

Most Americans think that the rest of the world hates them because they are free. That, however, is dead wrong. I hate it for being too capitalist and two oppressive.Hmmm, I will make two presumptions in the following...I will be glad to be corrected

A teen-aged so-called "Anarchist" (presumption #1) is going to tell us why his/her country (presumption #2) is so eeeeeeevil. Let's analyze it, point by point.

1. Sexual repression--The US has a truly terrible attitude towards sex. Whereas most of the first world has little problem with sex and censors it rarely, the FCC censors stuff all the time. Americans themselves are even more sex-negative than the government, demanding that censor more stuff than it already is.I gather this young person hasn't been watching the junk that comes across on ABC/NBC/CBS/MTV or just Hollywood in general, lately. Namely, "Desperate Housewives" is a nice recent example..."The Real World" is another..."Will and Grace"...anything on Cinemax or HBO...the examples are plentiful, and disgraceful. Remember, one of the factors the Islamofascists use to condemn the West is the overtly sexual entertainment that comes from where...Hollywood! Sure, France, Germany and others feature full nudity on prime time TV, and French TV was rumored to have hardcore pornography on some channels, but looking at the incipient Islamofascist movements in those countries (even in Canada!,) are you sure that is such a good thing?

[qoute]2. Élitism--In the US, if you are poor, it is considered your fault and you wasted all your money on drugs. If you are rich, it is supposedly because you worked hard. As a result, the poor are treated far worse than those in other first world nations.[/quote]This one baffles me. Even the poorest of the poor in the US, statistically speaking, is better off than more than half of the world. Now, agreed, not all the poor are poor because of drug usage, or alcoholism or laziness; nor are all the rich so due solely to hard work and dedication. There are those who are born into poverty through no fault of their own, and those who are thrust into poverty from hard breaks; there are also those who are born into great fortune with no redeeming qualities to speak of, like Paris Hilton. But I daresay, there is absolutely nothing in the way of a truly determined person who works his/her way up, other than the confiscatory tax rates imposed by a so-called "progressive" tax system. Modern example? Bill Gates, who started Microsoft in a garage, with $150.

3. Healthcare--If you are poor, you don't have many options. If you break your leg and can't afford healthcare, you are SOL (how can you get a job when your leg is on the verge of falling off is beyond me, but Americans, conservatives in particular, expect you to do so).This one has already been debunked...again, by Federal Law, no one can be denied medical services based on their ability or inability to pay. Deny Jimmy Bob emergency services when his moonshine still blows up, because he ain't got no money, watch your hospital be shut down by the Feds...simple as that.

4. Standards of Living--The US is supposed to be the richest nation in the world, yet its standard of living is below that of many European nations. Its life-expectancy is around 5 years less than that of Japan. Whether its due to rampant obesity or lack of concern for the poor, I don't know.Hmmm, I really like the contradiction in this one. "The poor in the US are downtrodden and live like rats, scrambling for something to eat! In fact, they're despised by the rich, because they are fat!" Hmmm, being fat comes from...eating too much, with little exercise, if I recall correctly. And, standard of living is a very subjective measure. Sure, we have a percentage of our population (and I don't recall the number or percentage) living under what the Government considers to be the poverty level. But, let's dig a little deeper...how many people in France own two or even three TVs? Now go to the projects in any American city...say, Detroit or Chicago. Count the number of TVs in any apartment...I am willing to bet that you will find more than one, typically two...plus VCRs or DVD players, or even both! Now, measure the flat of any resident in Tokyo...tiny, isn't it? Especially when compared to an apartment in that project you just visited in Detroit or Chicago. Life expectancy? Funny that you chose to compare the US to Japan, which does have some of the longest life expectancies in the world. You couldn't have picked any of the nations in Africa, couldn't you? Bottom line, even the poorest in the US live longer and better than very many throughout the world; and they also have more ways to improve their condition at their disposal...if they so choose.

5. Propaganda--Everyday, I hear endlessly about how free the US is. If the US is so free, why do we need to be reminded of it? I am begining to wonder if the reason for all this propaganda is a lack of freedom that the gov wants us to ignore.And yet you're perfectly free to say all this, without fear of reprisal from the government. In fact, the main fear you have consists that there are those of us, with the same freedom, to show you the error of your ways. But you're always free to think the way you do.

6. Sexism--The US is far behind the rest of the first world (except Japan, hardly something to be proud of) in terms of sexual equality. While few Americans are overtly sexist, it shows in the small number of women in political offices compared to the rest of the first world.So, now we need affirmative action in elective offices too? Whatever happened to the concept of "best qualified"? And there are quite a few women in high posts throughout the government. Way more than there have been before, and even one is a lot more than there are in quite a few places around the world...

7. Stupid laws--There are so many stupid laws in the US. Do we really need laws against gay marriage, anal sex, pot, prostitution, etc.? Holland doesn't and it isn't collapsing into a dystopia. For a "free country", the US has a lot of truly stupid laws.For once we agree...let's start with affirmative action, followed by "hate speech" laws, "campaign finance" laws, most environmental regs...

Of course, people are going to invariably post "It's better than in Iraq/China/Afghanistan/etc." That does not excuse anything!This is laughable. Remember, in many of the nations you admire (Sweden, France, Italy, Canada, etc), you can actually be prosecuted for what you think, or for what someone thinks you're thinking. No such law in the US!

And yet nude beaches are illegal here and anime is censored for even the slightest mention of sex.


The difference here is that anime is marketed to children in America. In Japan and other nations, mostly adults watch it (meaning 14 & up.) Over here you've got 4 & 5 yr olds watching DBZ. I personally have mixed feelings about censorship. I don't want to have to expalin to my 6 yr. old kid why two people are naked and dancing, but at the same time it seems wrong to sensor everything. But with the level of mass communication these days, its become virtually impossible to shield your kids from stuff thats unhealthy for them (yes it is psychologically unhealthy to be in the sexual know at young age, this much has been proven.) I just wish kids had blinders until they reached puberty, when they're mature eough to make their own decisions. Ah well, Que sera.

I might also add that much of the censorship is not necessarilty FCC forced. The dubbing companies just do it to keep up a nice image with the parents of aforementioned small children.

You can buy it on DVD, but it said on a commentary on the DVD that it is illegal to show on TV because of the blood, sex, and "sacreligious" stuff about killing angels.



You are one of those "special" people aren't you. That sticker/warning is a promotional tool. Just like the one on "straw dogs"(a dustin hoffmin movie) and just like any number of movies that I can rent at blockbuster with the same warning. Illegal to show on tv means illegal to show on public television channels.

They make the warning so prominent so that hormone loaded kids get all excited and try to rent/buy it.

If you cant figure out that much, how do you perform more complicated tasks such as making correct change?

The thing I think we need to really look at is, what exactly IS free? No nation on this earth is totally free, to be so would be chaos.

1. Sexual repression--The US has a truly terrible attitude towards sex. Whereas most of the first world has little problem with sex and censors it rarely, the FCC censors stuff all the time. Americans themselves are even more sex-negative than the government, demanding that censor more stuff than it already is

In some respects this is true, and in others, not so true. The US tends to have a little bit of a whacked out version of what to censor and what not to, IMHO. We watch in our sheeple like way, even up here in Canada, US broadcasters put on shows in prime time that feature sex on a regular basis. Sexual jokes fly left and right both in and out of the media, and specialty channels make this available 24/7. Advertisers use sex appeal all the time to sell a product (those Herbal Essences shampoo commercials don't have people moaning in showers for nothing, and the focus on the "hardbodied" male and the "buxom" female tend to sell a LOT of products. Then the country turns around after the "monster they created" is out of control, and tries to put the brakes on what it sees as the moral decay of the country with laws. It's a system of checks and balances, and sometimes the scales tip one way or the other.

2. Élitism--In the US, if you are poor, it is considered your fault and you wasted all your money on drugs. If you are rich, it is supposedly because you worked hard. As a result, the poor are treated far worse than those in other first world nations.

Are they now? I agree that the poverty gap tends to be wider in the US than in some other countries, but the gap exists no matter where you go in this world.Even the Communist system of doing things which was supposed to close the gap didn't do so.

4. Standards of Living--The US is supposed to be the richest nation in the world, yet its standard of living is below that of many European nations. Its life-expectancy is around 5 years less than that of Japan. Whether its due to rampant obesity or lack of concern for the poor, I don't know.

Rampant obesity hasn't got a lot to do with it from where I can see. Standard of living has a lot to do with many factors, some being linked to the poverty gap, and some being linked to the proportion of people who choose to survive, rather than live. The interesting part about America, is that it was never set up to be a country that stated it would guarantee a high standard of living for every person. It was set up to be a country of opportunity for those willing to accept it. The tools are there for every person to live longer if they so choose, to live healthier, if they so choose, and to persue happiness, but that doesn't mean it's guaranteed in the form of more dollars, or that it's guaranteed at all. It merely means that the right is there for Americans to persue it.

5. Propaganda--Everyday, I hear endlessly about how free the US is. If the US is so free, why do we need to be reminded of it? I am begining to wonder if the reason for all this propaganda is a lack of freedom that the gov wants us to ignore.

Yep. That IS true. It's broadcast up here and seeps and oozes all over Canada from the US as well. From my northern standpoint, I don't see the US nor its citizens as being totally free, and to proport to be so is absurd (see point #1 in this post for why). HOwever, that said, every country and every issue has its propaganda that goes with it. One of the more ignored non-freedoms I can see in the US, is the treatment of Native Americans *dodges the various comments that are probably now flying over that comment*. In Canada, a Native person who has Treaty rights, also is afforded North American Citizenship (are free to work, live and cross the border to the US). HOwever, I have a roommate who was born on the US side of the border with Treaty rights there, who is not afforded this same freedom of dual citizenship. The BIA act down south is much more restrictive, and conolistic than it is up here, as far as "freedom" goes.

That said, one of the things I like about the US, is that at least the freedom to think is there. Maybe not to always state what you think without fear of reprisal, but at least to think it, to a certain extent. Patriot Act, and it's new incarnation may change that situation, however. Those things we take for granted are withering away.

6. Sexism--The US is far behind the rest of the first world (except Japan, hardly something to be proud of) in terms of sexual equality. While few Americans are overtly sexist, it shows in the small number of women in political offices compared to the rest of the first world.

It also shows in the defeat of the ERA amendment.

This is laughable. Remember, in many of the nations you admire (Sweden, France, Italy, Canada, etc), you can actually be prosecuted for what you think, or for what someone thinks you're thinking. No such law in the US!

Sure there is. It's called "Patriot Act," which is the precursor to "Patriot Act II" (Domestic Security Enhancement Act) See below for where this, if passed (and it looks like it will much like the first one) affects the THINKING part of things:

Section 126: Equal Access to Consumer Credit Reports.
In recent years, it has become increasingly apparent that law enforcement investigators need access to suspected terrorists' banking information to determine their connections to terrorist organizations, including financial ties. The current version of 15 U.S.C. § 1681b(a)(1) allows investigators to obtain a suspect's credit report-the first step in locating his banking recordsonly in response to a court order or a federal grand jury subpoena. As a result, law enforcement cannot obtain a suspect's banking information without issuing multiple timeconsuming subpoenas. In some cases, it can take a series of three subpoenas--first to the credit reporting agency, then to the suspect's creditors, then to the suspect's banks--and a period of nine to 12 weeks to learn where a suspected terrorist keeps his accounts. Perversely, the law makes it far easier for private entities to obtain an individual's credit reports; under 15 U.S.C. § 1681b(a)(3)(F), a private entity can obtain--usually within minutes--a credit report on anyone in the United States so long as it has a "legitimate business need" for the information.

This provision would enable the government to obtain credit reports on virtually the same terms that private entities may. Specifically, it would amend § 1681b(a)(1) to allow law enforcement officers to obtain credit reports upon their certification that they will use the information only in connection with their duties to enforce federal law. This certification parallels the existing requirement that a private entity must have a "legitimate business need" before obtaining a credit report. In addition, to avoid alerting terrorists that they are under investigation, this provision would prohibit (absent court approval) disclosing to a consumer the fact that law enforcement has sought his credit report.

Section 501: Expatriation of Terrorists.
Under 8 U.S.C. § 1481, an American can lose his citizenship by voluntarily, and with the intent to relinquish nationality, taking any of a number of actions, including: (1) obtaining Nationality in a foreign state; (2) taking an oath of allegiance to a foreign state; and, most importantly, (3) serving in the armed forces of a foreign state that are engaged in hostilities against the United States. The current expatriation statute does not, however, provide for the relinquishing of citizenship in cases where an American serves in a hostile foreign terrorist organization. It thus fails to take account of the myriad ways in which, in the modern world, war can be waged against the United States.

This provision would amend 8 U.S.C. § 1481 to make clear that, just as an American can relinquish his citizenship by serving in a hostile foreign army, so can he relinquish his citizenship by serving in a hostile terrorist organization. Specifically, an American could be expatriated if, with the intent to relinquish nationality, he becomes a member of, or provides material support to, a group that the United States has designated as a "terrorist organization," if that group is engaged in hostilities against the United States.

This provision also would make explicit that the intent to relinquish nationality need not be manifested in words, but can be inferred from conduct. The Supreme Court already has recognized that intent can be inferred from conduct. See, e.g., Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252, 260 (1980) (recognizing that the "intent to relinquish citizenship ... . [can be] expressed in words or. . . found as a fair inference from proved conduct"); see also King v. Rogers, 463 F.2d 1188, 1189 (9th Cir. 1972) ("[S]pecific subjective intent to renounce United States citizenship... may prove[d].. . [B]by evidence of an explicit renunciation, acts inconsistent with United States citizenship, or by affirmative voluntary act[s] clearly manifesting a decision to accept [foreign] nationality." (citations omitted)); United States v. Schffer, 831 F. Supp. 1166, 1194 (E.D. Pa. 1993) ("Specific intent may.. . be proven by evidence of what steps the alleged expatriate did or did not take in connection with his expatriating acts."), aff'd without opinion, 31 F.3d 1175 (3rd Cir. 1994). Specifically, this proposal would make service in a hostile army or terrorist group prima facie evidence of an intent to renounce citizenship.




Section 312: Appropriate Remedies with Respect to Law Enforcement Surveillance Activities.
During the 1970s and 1980s, some law enforcement agencies--e.g., the New York City Police Department--entered consent decrees that limit such agencies from gathering information about organizations and individuals that may be engaged in terrorist activities and other criminal wrongdoing. See, e.g., Handschu v. Special Servs. Div., 605 F. Supp. 1384 (S.D.N.Y. 1985), aff'd, 787 F.2d 828 (2d Cir. 1986). As a result, they lack the ability to use the full range of investigative techniques that are lawful under the Constitution, and that are available to the FBI. (For example, the Attorney General's investigative guidelines authorize agents, subject to certain restrictions, to attend public places and events "on the same terms and conditions as members of the public generally.") The consent decrees also handicap officers in their efforts to share information with other law enforcement agencies, including federal law enforcement agencies such as the FBI. These problems threaten to frustrate the operations of the federal-state-local Joint Terrorism Task Forces, and could prevent effective cooperation at all levels of government in antiterrorism efforts. As the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit explained (before September 11) in discussing one consent decree, as a result of such a decree "the public safety is insecure and the prerogatives of local government scorned. To continue federal judicial micromanagement of local investigations of domestic and international terrorist activities ... is to undermine the federal system and to trifle with the public safety." Alliance to End Repression v. City of Chicago, 237 F.3d 799, 802 (7th Cir. 2001).

This proposal would discontinue most consent decrees that could impede terrorism investigations conducted by federal, state or local law enforcement agencies. It would immediately terminate most decrees that were enacted before September 11, 2001 (including New York City's). This proposal would discontinue most consent decrees that could impede terrorism investigations conducted by federal, state or local law enforcement agencies. It would immediately terminate most decrees that were enacted before September 11, 2001 (including New York City's). All surviving decrees would have to be necessary to correct a current and ongoing violation of a Federal right, extend no further than necessary to correct the violation of the Federal right, and be narrowly drawn and the least intrusive means to correct the violation. This provision is modeled on the Prison Litigation Reform Act, 18 U.S.C. § 3626, which terminated many prison-related consent decrees and which repeatedly has been upheld by the courts. Section 312 does not apply to consent decrees or injunctions remedying discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, and therefore would not affect decrees or injunctions involving allegations of racial profiling.

Section 321: Authority to Seek Search Warrants and Orders to Assist Foreign States.
28 U.S.C. § 1782 does not clearly authorize the United States to obtain search warrants in response to requests from foreign governments; it only clearly applies to subpoenas. Nor is it clear that federal law enforcement can obtain orders under the pen register/trap and trace statute at foreign governments' requests. As a result, the United States can seek search warrants only if we have entered into a treaty with the foreign government that contains a provision authorizing us to do so (and, naturally, only if the foreign government has set forth facts sufficient to establish probable cause). The same is true of pen./trap orders. The United States therefore may find itself in a situation where it cannot assist a foreign government in one of its criminal investigations, which is hardly an effective way of encouraging foreign allies to assist our own counterterrorism investigations.

This provision would modify federal law to clarify that the United States may seek search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the requests of foreign governments. Doing so will enhance our ability to assist foreign law enforcement investigations, as well as promote better cooperation from foreign allies when we seek evidence from within their borders.

Section 322: Extradition Without Treaties and for Offenses Not Covered by an Existing Treaty.
Many of the United States' older extradition treaties contain "lists" or "schedules" of extraditable offenses that reflect only those serious crimes in existence at the time the treaties were negotiated. (For. example, our treaty with Egypt dates from 1874, and our treaty with Great Britain which includes Pakistan dates from the 1930s.) As a result, these older treaties often fail to include more modern offenses, such as money laundering, computer crimes, and certain crimes against children. While some old treaties are supplemented by newer multilateral terrorism treaties, extradition is possible under these newer treaties only if the other country is also a party to the multinational treaty, leaving gaps in coverage. Additionally, absent a few narrow exceptions, U.S. law permits the extradition of offenders to a foreign nation only when there is a treaty or convention in force with that country or a statute conferring such authority upon the executive branch. See Valentine v. United States, 299 U.S. 5, 8 (1936). At present, there are close to seventy countries in the world with which the U.S. has no extradition treaty at all. This means that the U.S. can become a "safe haven" for some foreign criminals, and that we cannot take advantage of some countries' willingness to surrender fugitives to us in the absence of an extradition treaty these nations usually require at least the possibility of reciprocity.

This provision would amend current extradition law to: (1) authorize the U.S. to extradite offenders to treaty partners for modern crimes that may not be included in our older list treaties with those countries; and (2) provide for on a case-by-case basis and with the approval of the Attorney General and the Secretary of State extradition from the United States for serious crimes even in the absence of an extradition treaty.

Which is why the "Under god" and "In god we trust" BS is creepy.

"Oh? You don't trust in god? But.. it's on our MONEY... it's what Americans DO... you're.. you're not acting like an American... ...You have five minutes to find Jesus before I cart you off to the deportation office. Start PRAYING."

Meh

I grew up disliking the U.S. but I now understand that there are corrupt politicians in all countries and when George W. finishes bankrupting the U.S. for his own financial gain the world will be a much worse place than it is now. I hope that the citizens of the U.S. rise up and overthrow the Bush regime and rebuild their corrupt political process from the ground up and become the example of democracy they appear to have always wanted to be, but were sadly never able to achieve...

Remember that not all the U.S. voted for Bush and out of the ones who did, many did it because the media gave them no real information about what sort of person George W. really is. They saw Iraq as a victory instead of the massive failure that it is. They saw terrorism as a threat when the reality is that it isn't as bigger danger to them as global warming. The believed the lies about Kerry spread by Bush and then believed that Republicans controlling the voting process in several states was not worth looking into.

Any of us can be lied to, it happens to people of all ages and all races, don't blame the U.S. for it, blame the republicans and the media, they are responsible for the mess the world is heading into after the U.S. economy eventually gets flushed down the toilet of history and the U.S. is led by its despot leader hell bent on controlling the world.

"And Satan will welcome George W. and his Christian followers from middle America with open arms for helping him in his vision of a hell on earth."

Just my 2c please don't shoot me :)

I don't know what you are talking about, here. I can't turn around without seeing Bush lamasted on CNN or NPR or any number of news outlets.

Further, I find your calls for revolution laughable.

Bankrupting? Feh.
Last I checked, the US is a soverign nation. We run our own economy.
If you're complaining about how the US is doing business, look at European Nations with 10%+ unemployment and cradle to grave healthcare. Germany or France will bust *long* before the US does, my friend.

And as for despot: He's gone in 2008. We never elected Musolini or Hitler. :p
Please show me where the US is making new states. I'm not aware of any 51st stars on our flag.

In my last post, I refuted arguments that the original poster made regarding his hatred for America. In this one, I'd like to say that though invading Iraq was not the correct course of action, it is a larger problem than "global warming." As a student of science, I do not believe global warming exists as a result of human action. To think so is simply arrogance and an attempt to play God. The data simply does not support global warming. Check out the book State of Fear by Michael Crichton, author of Jurassic Park. Unlike his other sci-fi, he cites specific science and dedicates an appendix to the subject. Bush should have sent a delegate to the Kyoto Accords, but America was right in not signing the blasted document. I guess it's like the third Geneva convention. :-D

The GDP/capita in the US in 2003 was $37,800. Find me a single country who had higher. Here's a hint: you won't find one.



Luxembourgh has a higher GDP Per Capita then the U.S. Norway and the U.S are tied for the 2nd largest GDP Per Capita.

What propaganda? I never hear any thing about propaganda. I go to high school we arn't subjected to anything on how America is so much better than any other country.

I remeber quite clearly in high school being told what a rotten nation the US was. My teachers gave us propaganda alright, but it was against the US, not for it. Most teachers in the US are leftwing. Leftys as a general rule don't care for the US very much so they are so positive about it.

one cant dislike countries, only people. you might say you dislike the us government or certain people from the us you met or even just the landscape of some area but disliking a country is impossible.

I remeber quite clearly in high school being told what a rotten nation the US was. My teachers gave us propaganda alright, but it was against the US, not for it. Most teachers in the US are leftwing. Leftys as a general rule don't care for the US very much so they are so positive about it.

Damn, quoting myself, probably breaking some forum convention. Made a mistake though. last sentence. "for the US very much so they aren't so positive about it."

clinton had some blame, but all out war just then would have made no sense. the majority of the blame should go to bush. it was his resonsiblity, he was in office, and he had oppetunity. bush missed the clues, and the signs, and ignored it. he deserves most responsiblity.
Time for me to call a Bullshit penalty on you.

Let's examine the timeline and see where your folly lies:

1993: al-Qaeda operatives detonate a bomb in the parking lot of the World Trade Center, NYC. President of the United States: Bill Clinton, who didn't even bother visiting the WTC to inspect the damage.

1993: al-Qaeda operatives, together with Somali warlords, attack US forces attempting to stabilize Somalia...you might remember this from "Black Hawk Down." President of the United States: Bill Clinton, who denied requests for reinforcements to the troops on the ground, including requests for armored vehicles.

1996: al-Qaeda operatives attack the US airbase in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. President of the United States: Bill Clinton, who refuses an offer from Sudan to hand Osama over to the US, because "we had no legal recourse."

1998: al-Qaeda operatives attack US embassies in Africa. President of the United States: Bill Clinton, who launches missile attacks on a few empty tents in Afghanistan...at least now he was trying to do something about it, though these missile attacks were launched, conveniently on the same evening he had to testify on a case that eventually saw him become the only US president to be disbarred from the legal profession.

2000: al-Qaeda operatives attack the USS Cole while on a refueling stop in Yemen. President of the United States: Bill Clinton, who treats this attack as a criminal case, sending the FBI to make a few arrests.

January 2001: George Bush takes office as President of the United States, and faces a Senate hostile to many of his appointments, thanks to a senator who changes sides and makes the GOP a minority until 2002.

Sept 2001: the 9/11 attacks horrify the world...except for the Islamofascists. President of the United States: George Bush, who has been in office for less than 8 months at this point. He launches a Global War on Terrorism, which so far has mostly incapacitated al-Qaeda. Osama bin Laden's whereabouts are unknown since Nov 2001. Saddam Hussein, one of the largest sponsors of terrorism, is deposed and captured in 2003. Lybia renounces its support for terrorism and its pursuit of nuclear weapons.

8 years of inaction (Bill Clinton) vs 8 months of lack of knowledge, followed by 3+ years of positive action (George Bush). I think we all know who deserves the responsibility, and who missed all the clues and opportunities.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...Freedom Fries!!! :gundge: