NationStates Jolt Archive

If you want to get on the church wagon perhaps you should remember the religious wars and the Knights Templar (remember they were catholic and monks) who went round raping woman and slaughtering men women and children, including babies.
To plagarize Shaed,
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Whose version of history have you been reading?

...then of course, there's latex allergies!

Hatopia - have you never heard of the young girl with the persistant boyfriend who eventually persuades her that really...she won't get pregnant...or the "have unprotected sex or I will leave you" blah blah...it's not just about rape
If a woman's boyfriend is pressuring her to have sex, and she doesn't want to, she should leave him. Consensual sex is a decision between two people. The boyfriend should not make the decision for the girlfriend.

To plagarize Shaed,
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Whose version of history have you been reading?

it was on the telly so it MUST be true

Hatopia - have you never heard of the young girl with the persistant boyfriend who eventually persuades her that really...she won't get pregnant...or the "have unprotected sex or I will leave you" blah blah...it's not just about rape
No, I suppose it's about coersion as well.
In your view, will the persistant boyfriend be equally accountable, or is it just the young girl's fault for being gullible and caving?

Hatopia - have you never heard of the young girl with the persistant boyfriend who eventually persuades her that really...she won't get pregnant...or the "have unprotected sex or I will leave you" blah blah...it's not just about rape

There needs to be some sort of 'brain condom' to stop people from making dumb decisions, then abortion [save for rape & health related] would be a non-issue. Though we wouldn't have much to talk about on these forums then :(

If a woman's boyfriend is pressuring her to have sex, and she doesn't want to, she should leave him. Consensual sex is a decision between two people. The boyfriend should not make the decision for the girlfriend.


Seriously dude...it happens ALOT - why do you think HIV is so prevelant amoungst hetros? There are some very manipulative people out there!

No, I suppose it's about coersion as well.
In your view, will the persistant boyfriend be equally accountable, or is it just the young girl's fault for being gullible and caving?


Im pro-choice - I don't think any woman on this earth chooses to have an abortion for the entertainment value or the time off work - I believe it's the last case scenario used by women who have no other option. It's awful, it's painful and you end up being completely scarred emotionally for life...who chooses that? But it's better than having a baby that you don't want who will be unloved and unwanted and who will be emotionally scarred by the mother...or even worse possibly neglected.....there are women who are totally normal who have no mothering instinct.

The persistant boyfriend thing though....it's not him that gets pregnant!

There needs to be some sort of 'brain condom' to stop people from making dumb decisions, then abortion [save for rape & health related] would be a non-issue. Though we wouldn't have much to talk about on these forums then :(
I'm all for forced sterilization of anyone with an IQ under 130. That opinion has made me quite unpopular however. So it should be known that I'm not serious about it. Sort of.

No, I suppose it's about coersion as well.
In your view, will the persistant boyfriend be equally accountable, or is it just the young girl's fault for being gullible and caving?
If it's consensual, both should have to raise the child. If it's rape, abortion should be allowed and the man charged.

There needs to be some sort of 'brain condom' to stop people from making dumb decisions, then abortion [save for rape & health related] would be a non-issue. Though we wouldn't have much to talk about on these forums then :(
Actually, I agree with you. As I said in a previous post, abortion clinics shouldn't exist. Not because they're outlawed, but because the only one's who have sex are the ones who will raise their child if the woman becomes pregnant.

Im pro-choice - I don't think any woman on this earth chooses to have an abortion for the entertainment value or the time off work - I believe it's the last case scenario used by women who have no other option. It's awful, it's painful and you end up being completely scarred emotionally for life...who chooses that? But it's better than having a baby that you don't want who will be unloved and unwanted and who will be emotionally scarred by the mother...or even worse possibly neglected.....there are women who are totally normal who have no mothering instinct.

The persistant boyfriend thing though....it's not him that gets pregnant!
I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. I refuse take a side on the issue because as I said before, abortion is only a symptom of a much larger problem.
I believe that all problems need to be taken back to their root cause before anyone can feasibly offer a solution.
I am however annoyed my these (most often) fundamentalist Christian males who see abortion as an evil perpetuated by women alone. It defies logic to not equally place the resposibility on both sexes, which is something you've stated you are in agreement with, so I have no beef with you.

I'm all for forced sterilization of anyone with an IQ under 130. That opinion has made me quite unpopular however. So it should be known that I'm not serious about it. Sort of.
Asumming we're using the same system, this would require sterilizing somewhere over 60-70% of the earth's population.

I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. I refuse take a side on the issue because as I said before, abortion is only a symptom of a much larger problem.
I believe that all problems need to be taken back to their root cause before anyone can feasibly offer a solution.
I am however annoyed my these (most often) fundamentalist Christian males who see abortion as an evil perpetuated by women alone. It defies logic to not equally place the resposibility on both sexes, which is something you've stated you are in agreement with, so I have no beef with you.
Yes, I do believe it is a symptom of a much larger problem as well. But the reason many people have abortions is because they think, "Hey, we can have lots of sex. If I (or you, if speaking from the male point of view) get pregnant, there's always an abortion." Would outlawing abortion solve the problem? No. But it may help.

If it's consensual, both should have to raise the child. If it's rape, abortion should be allowed and the man charged.
Unfortunately, this would be tough to track. As anyone who has ever even seen a commercial for "The Maury Povich Show" soon to be renamed, "Who's My Baby's Daddy?" It would be a great undertaking to match up all these babies with their fathers, and all I'm thinking about is,"What is going to happen to these children?" They are doomed! Absolutely doomed!
The right-wingers who are so hell-bent on outlawing abortion are at the same time stripping away health and services to those who need it most. It's absolutely hypocritical.

Yes, I do believe it is a symptom of a much larger problem as well. But the reason many people have abortions is because they think, "Hey, we can have lots of sex. If I (or you, if speaking from the male point of view) get pregnant, there's always an abortion." Would outlawing abortion solve the problem? No. But it may help.
That's like arguing prohibition would reduce drunk driving.

Asumming we're using the same system, this would require sterilizing somewhere over 60-70% of the earth's population.
Actually, I think it would be much more than that. Maybe I'm being too selective.
Again, I'm kidding. Sort of.

I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. I refuse take a side on the issue because as I said before, abortion is only a symptom of a much larger problem.
I believe that all problems need to be taken back to their root cause before anyone can feasibly offer a solution.
I am however annoyed my these (most often) fundamentalist Christian males who see abortion as an evil perpetuated by women alone. It defies logic to not equally place the resposibility on both sexes, which is something you've stated you are in agreement with, so I have no beef with you.


But I like beef! Especially with gravy and roast spuds.

I just think people should have a choice in life.

Yes, I do believe it is a symptom of a much larger problem as well. But the reason many people have abortions is because they think, "Hey, we can have lots of sex. If I (or you, if speaking from the male point of view) get pregnant, there's always an abortion." Would outlawing abortion solve the problem? No. But it may help.

Uhh... very, VERY few people think "Oh, it's ok, I'll enjoy 5 minutes of pleasure and then have MINOR SURGERY. What fun". Abortion is almost always used as a final option.

Abortion is not some simple little thing. The only people who seem to act like it is are anti-abortioners - usually because they aren't aware how dangerous it can be for the woman (before people jump on this, giving birth is just as dangerous)

That's like arguing prohibition would reduce drunk driving.
Wow. That said it all. I was going to reply to that post but now I don't need to. Thanks. No mandatory sterilization for you. You are free to reproduce, if you haven't done so already.
:D

I'm all for forced sterilization of anyone with an IQ under 130. That opinion has made me quite unpopular however. So it should be known that I'm not serious about it. Sort of.


Buck v. Bell: Three generations of imbeciles is enough.

It werkz.

Yes, I do believe it is a symptom of a much larger problem as well. But the reason many people have abortions is because they think, "Hey, we can have lots of sex. If I (or you, if speaking from the male point of view) get pregnant, there's always an abortion." Would outlawing abortion solve the problem? No. But it may help.


That is so far from the truth it's in another star system....abortion is not a form of contraception...it never was and never will be...it is a last resort only and I defy you to present me with a human being (with a brain of course) who agrees with you.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.
You all seem to be missing a much larger picture, the world is severely overpopulated. I'm for more than por-choice, I'm for limiting family size, the world over. Unless we either, find a way to produce twice the ammount of food and space with half of waste we produce now by not doing so we condem our decendents to a life with inadequite supplies and eventually the death of our species because we would be living in nothing but our own waste.

Just my 2 cents.

Actually, I think it would be much more than that. Maybe I'm being too selective.
Again, I'm kidding. Sort of.
:p Actually, if you just rounded up every major politician in the US + Nader you'd be off to a good start. Follow with any Daley followers, most union heads, and Jerry Falwell and you'd be halfway there.


Edit: Forgot to add the lawyers.

But I like beef! Especially with gravy and roast spuds.

I just think people should have a choice in life.
Sure I see that. I can relate. About the choice part too, not just mashed potatoes and gravy.

There is no solution to this problem as some women are always going to want an abortion. It is the individuals right to it, and surley it is better to provide a proper medical way then to let back street doctors butcher the mothers as well as the babies.

That is so far from the truth it's in another star system....abortion is not a form of contraception...it never was and never will be...it is a last resort only and I defy you to present me with a human being (with a brain of course) who agrees with you.
Other people who are trying to ban it?

...sorry but the surgery isn't minor. You have to have various test, including phsychologic before being allowed to have a termination. You then go into the clinic and remove all jewellery blah blah...you then have a general anesthetic and are wheeled into the theatre. The procedure involves a whole bunch of machinery and blood and yuk, you leave the theatre and are left to recover whilst being monitored. The procedure may result in infertility or more serious internal damage. All women are made thoroughly aware of how serious and potentially dangerous the procedure is (as nobody will back it financially to improve things we are still using vastly outdated procedures and equipment) nobody...and I mean NOBODY does that at the drop of a hat...it is not fun...it is not easy...it is not pain free....really! Who chooses to go through that lot when there is a much easier (and financially cheaper) option called contraception.

Accidents happen.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.
You all seem to be missing a much larger picture, the world is severely overpopulated. I'm for more than por-choice, I'm for limiting family size, the world over. Unless we either, find a way to produce twice the ammount of food and space with half of waste we produce now by not doing so we condem our decendents to a life with inadequite supplies and eventually the death of our species because we would be living in nothing but our own waste.

Just my 2 cents.
Oh, here comes the Voice Of Reason banging at the door. I can't comment on this because you bring to light so many truely pressing issues that are so much more important than abortion. And it's late, I have to go bed. Soon. Ish.

There is no solution to this problem as some women are always going to want an abortion. It is the individuals right to it, and surley it is better to provide a proper medical way then to let back street doctors butcher the mothers as well as the babies.


Bubbles and I discussed how it would be if a woman was refused an abortion and then gave birth to Hitler!

HAH!

Other people who are trying to ban it?


Do they qualify under the brain thing?

I say birth control pills, condoms, and morning-after pills should be included in health insurance.


Voila, less abortions.

Do they qualify under the brain thing?
Perhaps a malformed one.

Perhaps a malformed one.

....oh...bum! Blows my arguement out of the water then!

...sorry but the surgery isn't minor. You have to have various test, including phsychologic before being allowed to have a termination. You then go into the clinic and remove all jewellery blah blah...you then have a general anesthetic and are wheeled into the theatre. The procedure involves a whole bunch of machinery and blood and yuk, you leave the theatre and are left to recover whilst being monitored. The procedure may result in infertility or more serious internal damage. All women are made thoroughly aware of how serious and potentially dangerous the procedure is (as nobody will back it financially to improve things we are still using vastly outdated procedures and equipment) nobody...and I mean NOBODY does that at the drop of a hat...it is not fun...it is not easy...it is not pain free....really! Who chooses to go through that lot when there is a much easier (and financially cheaper) option called contraception.

Accidents happen.
I will say this. I do have a problem with minors being able to get an abortion without parental/adult consent. In my state, a seventeen-year-old high school senior cannot be dispensed one single aspirin from the school nurse without WRITTEN parental consent. Yet people argue she should be able to go get an abortion WITHOUT consent.
It's sad, a number of years ago I remember seeing a story on the news about these parents from Indiana or something who lost their daughter. They were siding with pro-chioce, abortion-on-demand advocates. The girl wanted an abortion but the state she lived in had parental consent laws. So she had an illegal abotion and died hemmoraging. This poor middle-aged couple was up on a podium sobbing and said that if only their underage daughter could have had a legal abortion without their consent, she would be alive.
As grief-stricken as they were, I could only think if that girl had been raised to be able to bring such a problem to her parents and get their consent, she would be alive today.
I don't think that girl died of a "back-alley" abortion, she died of not being able to trust her parents. THAT'S really sad.

GAH!

Enough with this abortion bullshit!

@LCL
I don't think you should post that link you said you wanted to post, because most likely a) the site will just show pics of "aborted" dolls (I learned that the hard way in the Roe v Wade thread, if I remember correctly) or b) like some one else said earlier in this thread, the site will just show pics of aborted carcasses.

I say birth control pills, condoms, and morning-after pills should be included in health insurance.


Voila, less abortions.
Unfortunately, most insurers are only beginning to cover contraceptives. Yet they have been covering Viagra since day one. Explain that skewed logic.

I will say this. I do have a problem with minors being able to get an abortion without parental/adult consent. In my state, a seventeen-year-old high school senior cannot be dispensed one single aspirin from the school nurse without WRITTEN parental consent. Yet people argue she should be able to go get an abortion WITHOUT consent.
It's sad, a number of years ago I remember seeing a story on the news about these parents from Indiana or something who lost their daughter. They were siding with pro-chioce, abortion-on-demand advocates. The girl wanted an abortion but the state she lived in had parental consent laws. So she had an illegal abotion and died hemmoraging. This poor middle-aged couple was up on a podium sobbing and said that if only their underage daughter could have had a legal abortion without their consent, she would be alive.
As grief-stricken as they were, I could only think if that girl had been raised to be able to bring such a problem to her parents and get their consent, she would be alive today.
I don't think that girl died of a "back-alley" abortion, she died of not being able to trust her parents. THAT'S really sad.

I see your point - not everyone has a good relationship with their folks....and for those that do, maybe they might feel they are letting their family down and don't want to upset them....maybe the folks would want to know who the father is and the minor wants to protect him or is ashamed...there's a bunch of stuff there...it's a far from ideal world. I don't have a problem with minors getting contraceptives or abortions...there was a case recently here when a girl wanted an abortion but her mother wouldn't let her...she forced her daughter to give birth so that she could have another child! That's not fair on the daughter or the baby

What all you Pro-Life, Pro-Choice people don't understand is that you're fighting over the wrong freaking topic!
If all of you spent half of your mobilizing energy on PREVENTING unplanned, unwanted pregnancies, you would see a DECLINE in the abotion rate.
FLIPPIN' IDIOTS!

Not all.

Both men and women need to take responsibility for pregnancies. That they don't, that more often than not the woman is left in the lurch while the man goes on his merry way is a regrettable effect of society still accepting the idea that "it's fine for men to sow their wild oats anywhere they please". I believe that their should be sexual equality between the sexes; however, I think this should be achieved by men having less sex, not women having more.

I'm more or less asexual so I don't see what the big hairy deal is about sex in the first place. Yeah it's fun and whatever but it's not as if it's the only thing that matters in life, the only way to enjoy yourself. I'm very Platonic in my views, I guess; I value the mind far more than the body and I feel it's...not degrading, exactly, but that people who spend all their time indulging their bodies at the expense of their minds aren't living up to their full potential. I do realise that this is only my (rather unusual and abnormal) opinion, however; there's just no denying that it colours and influences my stance on a lot of issues, so I'm not going to pretend it doesn't.

People like to separate sex and pregnancy. It's true that human sex has an important social and communicative aspect. Sex brings people together in the most intimate way, it is pleasurable, and that's great. However, sex is also about reproduction - if human reproduction were asexual, there wouldn't be the pleasure aspect either, because there would be no sex at all. Contraception is marvellous for preventing a lot of unwanted pregnancies but as Hatopia says, it's not 100% and that needs to be taken into account. Pregnancy is a risk that comes with sexual activity, hell it's the initial reason behind sexual activity, and it's wishful thinking to expect otherwise.

Pregnancy isn't a "punishment" on women, although it can feel that way; it's just a natural part of life. Why women and not men? Who knows? There's no use arguing that in terms of pregnancy men and women should have identical rights and experiences because it's just not biologically viable. It doesn't seem fair that we're left to deal with all the awful uncomfortable bits of having a baby while men just stand round and watch, but life isn't fair. Saying, "I shouldn't have to have a baby grow inside me because a man doesn't" is about as much use as saying "I shouldn't have to have boobs because a man doesn't" - much as there are times when I would like to not have boobs (when I have to buy bras, for example), I don't have boobs because of some societal bias against women. I have boobs because women do, that's just the way life works. (This doesn't mean there isn't a societal bias against women; there most definitely is. But women being the gender who carry babies isn't caused by it.)

It is true that some women who have abortions are raped or their lives are in danger or so forth but this accounts for such a miniscule proportion of abortions that it's not really a crucial point of argument. Most abortions are done simply because a woman does not wish to have a child.

Abortion is never an easy decision. I don't think anyone has one lightly; it's painful, dangerous and often accompanied by emotional difficulty afterwards. I'm always surprised how many people still don't accept that a fetus is a human life. It is. Whether or not we assign any value to that life, and at what point we do so, is the issue. I have chronic depression, so I'm not the sort of person who will necessarily argue that all life has value, or equal value - there are times when I would most likely be better off dead, and when it would be better for my family and loved ones if I were (it's just harder than it looks, dying.)

I think abortion has to stay legal, at this point; I don't see it ever changing. What I would argue for is a change in societal attitudes towards sex and reproduction, an acknowledgement that the two are inextricably connected. Until that happens, there's no point changing any laws because the comparison to prohibition is a valid one - it will still happen far too often, and just in a dangerous and illegal manner. You can believe in and work towards an ideal world, but you have to legislate in the real one.

Bleh. Who cares, I just talk too much in posts because I don't have enough people to talk to in real life, damn my antisocial shyness.

It's not that it's gross.

If you saw this the life would just be sucked out you.


I can't believe I am responding to this, but it's been a long week, so what the hell!

Seen it. Been to the clinic. Marched on the capitol. Used to spread the same pamphlets you are trying to show us now.

Am unimpressed, and still quite full of life. Your statement is invalid and makes assumptions about other beings that you know nothing about.

You know what they say about assumptions...it makes an ass out of u and mption.

Either that or Linux instead of Winblows.
BSD is WAY better then Linux :P

Abortion should definitely should be legal if:

1. The woman's life is threatened


All pregnancies, and I want you to reread that so that you get it, all pregnancies threaten the life of the mother. Every last one of them. The odds may be greater or smaller depending on the individual, but there is absolutely no such thing as a risk-free pregnancy.

Only the individual in question has the right to decide whether or not they are willing to take that risk. Saying that you can determine it for them, or worse, that some beaurocrat in D.C or your state capitol can, is arrogant and immorral.

BSD is WAY better then Linux :P


Debian...the best of both worlds.

apt-get rocks.

Debian...the best of both worlds.

apt-get rocks.
No way ports works better then apt-get

Cvsup works easy for keepin things updated as well

Agreed on everything but Jeremiah. Why would God be seclusive and only know Jeremiah in the womb, plus my bible says my God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, AND the trinity(allthough that word was never used ONCE, pshaw)

Since G-d is omniscient (s)he has the ability to see all future possibility and actuality as fact at any given point in time. We do not have that ability, hence the discrepency in what he says about himself "I know you in the womb" and what he says that man should do about it "It isn't alive until it is screaming in your ear".

I've learnt something new today... there is a Catholic Channel! I wonder if they have a version of the 'Funniest Home Video Show'... what would it be call?

If abortion was banned, it would almost 100% likely be allowed in cases of rape or if the mother's or child's life was threatened. Also, why would anyone be grossed out by these pictures? I mean, none of the pro-choice poeple think it's alive, right?

I don't think my crap is alive, but I doubt anyone here would think that me showing pictures of it were not gross.

This cannot possibly be serious. There is no magical second when suddenly a child has full human rights, and the next he may be murdered in cold blood. It makes no sense. How can you say that this is the teaching of the Christ when it contradicts logic, something we in the Catholic Church have known scince Christ founded us.

I don't have the right to take a man's heart to save my life.

Then what makes you think a fetus has the right to take from the mother to save it's (meager and unformed) life?

This cannot possibly be serious. There is no magical second when suddenly a child has full human rights, and the next he may be murdered in cold blood. It makes no sense. How can you say that this is the teaching of the Christ when it contradicts logic, something we in the Catholic Church have known scince Christ founded us.
Christ did not found the catholic church (came about roughly 150 + years after his death … also was not the first form of Christianity)

And how can you say that it should be allowed in cases of rape? I am sorry for the woman, but that does not mean she ccan kill her own child!

Wasn't it a joke by the end of page one?

I kind of thought it was a joke at the beginning of page one, but I am in an odd mood, so I figured it would be a fun distraction for an hour or two.

Saying ,that the women must give consent to her child to grow inside her is like the government having to give consent to its people for them to be alive.

No, it's like saying that you have the right to refuse to donate your organs, even when they are your own children, even when the need arises because of a mistake you made, and even when that need was intentionally caused by you; so pregnant women do not get denied that same right.

[SNIP]
Unless there's snow involved.

Greatest...post...EVAH!

The problem with option B is that the baby existed in the first place. It was not born yet, but it still existed.

A mass of cells that would later have a chance to become a baby existed.

Once the thing forms a nervous system, there's more of a case. I don't care for late-term abortions on an animal abuse level, myself. Still not going to force another human being to give its nutrients to a cellular cluster.

Why hasn't this thread died???

I tried my best; I really did.

When you have sex, you do so knowing that there's a very good chance that you'll get pregnant. If you're unwilling to take that risk, you should not be having sex in the first place. If you got pregnant and you didn't want to, that's your fault. It's your problem, and YOU have to raise your child. Actions have consequences whether you like them or not.

Not everyone who has sex knows that there is a good chance. Some people that have sex, take great steps to eliminate as much of that risk as is possible, and still get pregnent. And most importantly, the only people that do not have sex once it becomes available are NOT NORMAL. It is unnatural to suppress that urge and it results in MANY physical and psychological problems.

It's also nice to note that people that claim to follow a man that said "Suffer not the little ones to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." most often talk about children as some sort of punishment for sin.

Have you ever heard of adoption?

Have you? There are 100million children in the world without homes and/or parents, living in the care of the state, foster parents, or some charity. How many of them have you adopted while sitting on your high horse demanding that more be added to the list?

Or are you truly this blind to your own hypocracy and arrogance?

Your G-d warned you about these things, why have you refused to listen?

If you intentionally crashed into that person, however, their family could probably sue the crap out of you.

But can they legally force you to donate your organs/blood to save the life of their family member?

Last I heard the answer was no. What makes you think a fetus gets some right the rest of us don't have?

But can they legally force you to donate your organs/blood to save the life of their family member?

Last I heard the answer was no. What makes you think a fetus gets some right the rest of us don't have?
While I am generally pro choice this is a silly argument babies (infants fetuses whatever) are kind of in a unique situation

I will say this. I do have a problem with minors being able to get an abortion without parental/adult consent. In my state, a seventeen-year-old high school senior cannot be dispensed one single aspirin from the school nurse without WRITTEN parental consent. Yet people argue she should be able to go get an abortion WITHOUT consent.

There is a logic to this. The parents are not the ones risking their own lives with the pregnancy. They are not the one's whose future is at stake. They often could care less, sadly but honestly, about the health and well being of their daughter. Sometimes they would consider the words of a priest a half a world away as more important than the words of their daughter. And what's worse, sometime the baby is the girl's father's (or step-father, or some other person in or close to the family). What happens then?

No way ports works better then apt-get

Cvsup works easy for keepin things updated as well

BAH! Apt-get is teh pwnage. All others is teh suck.

While I am generally pro choice this is a silly argument babies (infants fetuses whatever) are kind of in a unique situation

Not really. They depend on the life of another. There are people who do so, requireing regular blood transfusions or donations in order to survive. Noone is suggesting that we force people to donate blood to save their lives, not even the people in those situations. Or, if you want to go the nutrient route. Noone can force a parent not to give their child up for adoption and sever all ties/responsibilities to it. Why is there a discrepency in the first 9 months of that childs development?

Abortion should definitely should be legal if:

1. The woman's life is threatened
2. she has been raped

It is possibly justified if:

1. The child will have severe (life ruining) birth defects.
2. If the mother and father cannot support the child, much less themselves (adoption might be preferable in this case, but a life an orphanage, and not feeling loved might not be worth it.)

Abortion should absolutely not be used:

1. As a condom
2. If having a baby isn't "convenient".
3. To choose the gender of the baby.


took the words right out of my mouth...i would also like to add that fines should be added along with community service time fi a women is found to be having multiple abortions...and although i am no fan of "big brother", abortions should belinked to a national database so that ppl couldn't go to another state to avoid the fines and/or communty service...make it sorta like how you register to vote...registered abortions....gruesome...but in this day and age....it is needed....

Not really. They depend on the life of another. There are people who do so, requireing regular blood transfusions or donations in order to survive. Noone is suggesting that we force people to donate blood to save their lives, not even the people in those situations. Or, if you want to go the nutrient route. Noone can force a parent not to give their child up for adoption and sever all ties/responsibilities to it. Why is there a discrepency in the first 9 months of that childs development?
If you cant see why both location age responsibility to thoes unable to make their own decision and any host of other issues make it a unique situation ...

Listen the CHURCH's view that if both are going to die;is that you are to take out the womans whole uterous and try to save both.

this isn't a belief of any christian church i've heard of, studied, or attended.

And how can you say that it should be allowed in cases of rape? I am sorry for the woman, but that does not mean she ccan kill her own child!


So she gets to be violated again by having to carry the SOB's child to term? Nice.

As a rape victim myself, I get extremely offended by people who feel that had I gotten pregnant (and thank gods for the Morning-After Pill that I didn't), I should keep it because supposedly "it's not the baby's fault". If a woman can keep a pregnancy after something that horrific, more power to her. I personally would have gotten an abortion. Why? Because there is no way in hell I would have that asshole's baby, not because of the fact that the guy himself was an irresponsible moron who wouldn't take no for an answer, but because I know the kid would have a rough life if it was born. I could barely afford myself and my cat. Babies cost more to have than pets. Adoption wouldn't be an answer because it would not have been a white baby and most likely end up lost in foster care. And if I had raised it and it learned that it was a product of such a terrible act, what then? I've known people who became depressed and saddened to learn they were the products of rape. One I know of even attempted suicide. Is that fair?

I'm also pagan, which means your Christian God means little, if anything, to me. The concept of Heaven and Hell also means nothing. Therefore the religious card has no merit.

Gross factor has no merit because with that logic, you might as well ban open-heart surgery for the same reasons.

And for the last damned time, stop demonizing women for everytime they have sex. If they're taking all the precautions in not getting pregnant, chances are they're having sex for the pleasure and not for procreation. It's a stinking double-standard in how men are studs and women are sluts when it comes to sex. Not to mention sexist, just like it's sexist to force women to give birth when they don't want to. It's not our place to tell others what to do.

And pro-choice means just that; pro-choice. That means you choose your options.

So she gets to be violated again by having to carry the SOB's child to term? Nice.

As a rape victim myself, I get extremely offended by people who feel that had I gotten pregnant (and thank gods for the Morning-After Pill that I didn't), I should keep it because supposedly "it's not the baby's fault". If a woman can keep a pregnancy after something that horrific, more power to her. I personally would have gotten an abortion. Why? Because there is no way in hell I would have that asshole's baby, not because of the fact that the guy himself was an irresponsible moron who wouldn't take no for an answer, but because I know the kid would have a rough life if it was born. I could barely afford myself and my cat. Babies cost more to have than pets. Adoption wouldn't be an answer because it would not have been a white baby and most likely end up lost in foster care. And if I had raised it and it learned that it was a product of such a terrible act, what then? I've known people who became depressed and saddened to learn they were the products of rape. One I know of even attempted suicide. Is that fair?

I'm also pagan, which means your Christian God means little, if anything, to me. The concept of Heaven and Hell also means nothing. Therefore the religious card has no merit.

Gross factor has no merit because with that logic, you might as well ban open-heart surgery for the same reasons.

And for the last damned time, stop demonizing women for everytime they have sex. If they're taking all the precautions in not getting pregnant, chances are they're having sex for the pleasure and not for procreation. It's a stinking double-standard in how men are studs and women are sluts when it comes to sex. Not to mention sexist, just like it's sexist to force women to give birth when they don't want to. It's not our place to tell others what to do.

And pro-choice means just that; pro-choice. That means you choose your options.

I agree … what I find sad is the perpetration of the slut myth seems to be largely on the female side. It is sad shooting sexual liberation in the foot like that but hopefully people will overcome stereotypes
(not saying guys don’t call gurls sluts but usually that comes about more when they have their heart broken … I.E breakups and new relationships and stuff … not right but generally that is what I see) (of course there are exceptions … lots of them … majority from religious folks)
(and this is just from personal observation and talks with friends and stuff ... by no means proof)

If you cant see why both location age responsibility to thoes unable to make their own decision and any host of other issues make it a unique situation ...

Location is irrelivant. Age is also, both for the donor and the donee. Some of the people with these conditions are children, yet still noone is forced to donate blood to save their lives, neither adults nor other children.

No one is forced to do so if the person is mentally handicapped. Noone is forced to do so if the reason they need blood was due to accident, negligence, or willful malice on the part of the proposed donor. Your 'responsibility' argument is also invalid.

If you think there is some responsibility to the potential lives of embryos, then you should be donating your own body to do so, constantly. It is immoral for you to force upon another something that you cannot or will not do yourself.

There is no solution to this problem as some women are always going to want an abortion. It is the individuals right to it, and surley it is better to provide a proper medical way then to let back street doctors butcher the mothers as well as the babies.

I agree. Very well put.

He isn't posting pictures, just providing a link, which is ok.

This would be a mod's decision.
You are not a moderator.

The others are correct in stating it must be asked of a moderator.

Abortion may still be legal, but it doesn't do some women any good. In many states you have to leave the state and go hundreds of miles to find an abortion provider. One doctor provides services for several western states (I think montana was one of them) She has to travel with body guards, keep her schedule varied and her residence secret. She has a security system that would make Ft. Knox proud. All because loony anti-choice people think she ought to die.

It may not matter much longer whether or not it's legal. Providers will be to scared to practice.

Location is irrelivant. Age is also, both for the donor and the donee. Some of the people with these conditions are children, yet still noone is forced to donate blood to save their lives, neither adults nor other children.

No one is forced to do so if the person is mentally handicapped. Noone is forced to do so if the reason they need blood was due to accident, negligence, or willful malice on the part of the proposed donor. Your 'responsibility' argument is also invalid.

If you think there is some responsibility to the potential lives of embryos, then you should be donating your own body to do so, constantly. It is immoral for you to force upon another something that you cannot or will not do yourself.
Location was meaning located inside the mother herself
(again reminder I am not arguing pro life rather that using the donating organ arguement is rather silly with how unique the situation is)
I am pro choice for other reasons I just find that organ donation is a week arguement