NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't think that I can post pictures of the victims.

But can I post a site that does?

Alright, where's my troll whacking stick?

Afraid to see the horror?

:rolleyes:

Just because I'm disgusted by what comes out doesn't mean I'd want people to stop doing it. It's not like I have to see the "victims" as you say.

http://www.genesbmx.com/trolls.jpg

Afraid to see the horror?
What are we talking about here, anyway?
Abortion?

http://www.genesbmx.com/trolls.jpg
They misspelled "advice".

What are we talking about here, anyway?
Abortion?
Either that or Linux instead of Winblows.

Listen if I am told that I can I am going to post a site that sahowes pictures of abortions and videoes of abortions.


If you see these and still call it a choice you have something wrong with you.

Either that or Linux instead of Winblows.
But there is no choice!
It is morally wrong to use Linux!
See, Paul said so in the book of I.T.
"...and they that use Linux shall be cast out from their homes into the streets, they will live like animals, and their offspring will be cursed."
God wants you to use Windows.

...no wait, that's Bill Gates.
:D

Afraid to see the horror?
I don't like seing babies born because it's gross. So are open heart surgeries, liver transplants, and slugs. The fact that something is gross has no bearing on the situation.

They misspelled "advice".

Indeed. They used the verb instead of the noun. Oh well. My point is the same.

II personally am for linux and would like to see pictures of what comes out of people when they start using linux instead of wondows

It's not that it's gross.

If you saw this the life would just be sucked out you.

Listen if I am told that I can I am going to post a site that sahowes pictures of abortions and videoes of abortions.
You'd best take it up with the mods over in the moderation forum, I'd think. Methinks you'd get a straight answer quicker.

Listen if I am told that I can I am going to post a site that sahowes pictures of abortions and videoes of abortions.


If you see these and still call it a choice you have something wrong with you.

...

If you base your moral opinions on "Ewwwwww it's icky! Make it stop because blood makes me feel ill!" then YOU have something wrong with you.

Also, posting photos to make your point shows that you are incapable of debating in a rational manner and have to resort to propaganda. Don't expect to impress anyone.

It's not that it's gross.

If you saw this the life would just be sucked out you.
Hehe you obviously don't know me very well do you? A couple of abortion pictures aren't going to freak me. You want to see something horrifying? Look for pictures of a "harlequin fetus". That will haunt you for a long time.

It's not that it's gross.

If you saw this the life would just be sucked out you.

You know the majority of us have already been exposed to these "horrific" photos and videos you think are going to change our minds. Believe it or not, you're not unique. We've seen a hundred people with your exact same cookie-cutter opinions. And, amazingly, we're all still pro-choice. Fancy that.

Abortion should definitely should be legal if:

1. The woman's life is threatened
2. she has been raped

It is possibly justified if:

1. The child will have severe (life ruining) birth defects.
2. If the mother and father cannot support the child, much less themselves (adoption might be preferable in this case, but a life an orphanage, and not feeling loved might not be worth it.)

Abortion should absolutely not be used:

1. As a condom
2. If having a baby isn't "convenient".
3. To choose the gender of the baby.

I don't think that I can post pictures of the victims.


We've all seen it. We already know what happens and how it works and all that stuff. We just don't care. An embryo is no more a human than the thousands of skin cells I scrub off in the shower every morning.

There is no secular reason for being against the woman's right to choose and since the First Amendment to the US Constitution states that Congress shall pass no law with respect to the establishment of religion, we therefore cannot pass any laws that do not have secular reasoning.

The US has told women that they can if they want to and have it done safely and cleanly by properly trained medical professionals. If you are against having abortions, then do not have an abortion. That is also your right to choose. Do not take away another's rights just because you don't like it.

Otherwise, your right just to be Christian could be taken away and there wouldn't be thing one you can do about it. Stop with the shock-value terrorist tactics because it isn't going to work here.

I'm pro-choice and (a christian)*, I am also for the people of the U.S.A. voting on whether to allow gay marriage or not. boo! imagine that. oooogly boogly! Ill scare yer dad, fool!




*(evolutionist/anarchist/others read: and I am a zeolous hypcritical fanatical lying irrationally thinking fool)

All women should be like Saint Gianna Beretta Molla.

All women should be like Saint Gianna Beretta Molla.
You're funny, I like you.

We've all seen it. We already know what happens and how it works and all that stuff. We just don't care. An embryo is no more a human than the thousands of skin cells I scrub off in the shower every morning.


Unfortunately I have to disagree with you Keruvalia on that. I think that once the baby is conceived *bam* his soul/spirt is there. If soul means "eternal body' then I meant soul. If spirit means it then I meant spirit.

Listen I realy want to know if I can post this sites address.

If you all think that it wont change your minds then would care if I showed you this site.

Listen I realy want to know if I can post this sites address.

If you all think that it wont change your minds then would care if I showed you this site.
Then ask a mod, we have no idea.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla.???

Listen I realy want to know if I can post this sites address.

If you all think that it wont change your minds then would care if I showed you this site.

Just do it and get banned, you'll follow the path I've seen many a christian take in debates and life

Listen I realy want to know if I can post this sites address.

If you all think that it wont change your minds then would care if I showed you this site.
As I said earlier, you'd probably get an answer faster if you consulted the moderators more directly.
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1231

Of course, I don't know if any moderators are there right now, but it's better than asking here by a long shot.

"Stop with the shock-value terrorist tactics because it isn't going to work here."

Thats pretty harsh, he is asking permission and also just standing up for what he believes in. I dont necessarily agree with him but he isn't doing anything wrong or reprehensible.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla


She chose not to abort her baby and died shortly after birth because of complications with her womb that she could have fixed safely if she chose to abort her child.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you Keruvalia on that. I think that once the baby is conceived *bam* his soul/spirt is there. If soul means "eternal body' then I meant soul. If spirit means it then I meant spirit.

Ok, and that's perfectly acceptable for you to hold that belief. However, it is a religious belief and, thus, cannot be mandated into legislation without violating the First Amendment.

Now ... if you can give me a good secular reason, then I'm all ears.

Incidently, by all accounts, Torah says that a person isn't a person until the body is more than half way out of the mother and that the only times God referrences knowing someone in the womb is when He is speaking to a Prophet (such as Jeremiah).

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla


She chose not to abort her baby and died shortly after birth because of complications with her womb that she could have fixed safely if she chose to abort her child.
Hahahahahaha what an idiot.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla


She chose not to abort her baby and died shortly after birth because of complications with her womb that she could have fixed safely if she chose to abort her child.

Its fine that she chose that path, and fine that you respect her for it, but its a little much to expect all women to follow her lead.

These pictures will prove it.

The earliest in the list is an 8 week old baby.

Just because you believe that a soul is present at conception doesn't mean that other people believe it too. Or that they even believe in a soul. Hell, they may not believe that life begins at conception.

Funny stuff, this whole "differing beliefs" thing, eh?

Wouldn't it be ironic if a woman could save her life with an abortion, but chose not to, and then she and her baby died at birth?

Thats pretty harsh, he is asking permission and also just standing up for what he believes in. I dont necessarily agree with him but he isn't doing anything wrong or reprehensible.

Standing up for what you believe in should not include deliberately trying to offend others with graphic images. If that were the case, then why couldn't I - who am a strong advocate of gay rights - post pictures of man sex on these forums? After all ... it's something I believe in.

He can type his message, but I think the images would cross the line. There are people here as young as 13 who read these forums.

Thats why I am asking.

These pictures will prove it.

The earliest in the list is an 8 week old baby.
It will prove abortion is gross, but very few people ever debate as to whether surgery is gross or not.

Thats why I am asking.

Well my answer is no, do not post pictures. However, I am not a mod.

It will prove abortion is gross, but very few people ever debate as to whether surgery is gross or not.

Most people would agree that feces are gross ... should we ban defecation? :D

I want to know if I can post the site's address.

Thats why I am asking.
If you want the official stance, go ask in the moderation forum.
There's a mod on at the moment, if I remember correctly.

I want to know if I can post the site's address.
You've made that abundantly clear.

Standing up for what you believe in should not include deliberately trying to offend others with graphic images. If that were the case, then why couldn't I - who am a strong advocate of gay rights - post pictures of man sex on these forums? After all ... it's something I believe in.

He can type his message, but I think the images would cross the line. There are people here as young as 13 who read these forums.


He isn't posting pictures, just providing a link, which is ok. Considering 13 year olds read the boards then posting pictures directly here would cross the line, but he hasn't yet.

Also he believes strongly that these pictures will help his cause, i don't think you believe that posting pictures of gay sex will help your cause.

I was just saying calling his tactics "terrorist" was kinda harsh, terrorist would be blowing up an abortion clinic.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla


She chose not to abort her baby and died shortly after birth because of complications with her womb that she could have fixed safely if she chose to abort her child.

So, if the possibility arrises and your wife/gf or whatever is pregnant and in the same situation, you will advise her to die?

Ok, and that's perfectly acceptable for you to hold that belief. However, it is a religious belief and, thus, cannot be mandated into legislation without violating the First Amendment.

Now ... if you can give me a good secular reason, then I'm all ears.

Incidently, by all accounts, Torah says that a person isn't a person until the body is more than half way out of the mother and that the only times God referrences knowing someone in the womb is when He is speaking to a Prophet (such as Jeremiah).


Agreed on everything but Jeremiah. Why would God be seclusive and only know Jeremiah in the womb, plus my bible says my God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, AND the trinity(allthough that word was never used ONCE, pshaw)

I want to know if I can post the site's address.

So we've heard. And has been said, you need to go to the Moderation forum and ask the Moderators. None of our opinions actually have any weight.

These pictures will prove it.

The earliest in the list is an 8 week old baby.

I can only hope that you, unlike many who hold the anti-abortion stance realise the difference between ELECTIVE abortions and LATE-TERM abortions.

If not, I'll be forced to throw my hands in the air and give up all hope on humanity ever reaching any level of collective intelligence.

I want to know if I can post the site's address.

Probably, but I imagine it should come with a warning concerning graphic content and chances are most likely the thread would get deleted and you may get a warning.

We do realize that a one week old baby is not a human bieng to you people.

If not, I'll be forced to throw my hands in the air and give up all hope on humanity ever reaching any level of collective intelligence.
Hey, I can count to seven.
Will that make up for the deficit?

We do realize that a one week old baby is not a human bieng to you people.

You have pictures of one week old babies being aborted? Because that might be something you want to report to the authorities.

Agreed on everything but Jeremiah. Why would God be seclusive and only know Jeremiah in the womb

I don't know, but the only times in the Bible that God speaks of knowing someone in the womb is when He's speaking to a Prophet. I didn't write it, so I couldn't tell you why.

It's not that it's gross.

If you saw this the life would just be sucked out you.

Really?.......i'm sure I still have life in me.....so I take it you are anti abortion then? Even if the girl has been raped? Even if a birth would almost kill her? You would inflict your view on somebody else because you feel bad? Tell me if you seriously think those foetuses would survive outside the body? Do you REALLY know what your talking about?

You have pictures of one week old babies being aborted? Because that might be something you want to report to the authorities.

How can you find out you're pregnant and arrange an abortion inside of 1 week?

We do realize that a one week old baby is not a human bieng to you people.
Then why do you think we would care? And who is this we that you are?

How can you find out you're pregnant and arrange an abortion inside of 1 week?

A one week old baby would have already been carried to term. A one week old fetus, on the other hand....

Listen the CHURCH's view that if both are going to die;is that you are to take out the womans whole uterous and try to save both.

Listen the CHURCH's view that if both are going to die; you are to take out the womans whole uterous and try to save both.
Then I guess the CHURCH doesn't know much about real medical procedures huh? *Hint* Thats why we let the doctors do this kind of thing, not the CHURCH.

BTW why didn't good ol' Saint Gianna give this a shot?

We do realize that a one week old baby is not a human bieng to you people.

Let's think on this for a minute, shall we?

If you're conceived on October 1st, 1980 and are born on July 1st, 1981, do you believe you should be able to walk into a bar and have a drink on October 1st 2001?

If life begins at conception, should we all claim to be 40 weeks older than we actually are?

A first-trimester embryo, however, in my opinion, is no more a human than a carbeurator is a vehicle.

Listen the CHURCH's view that if both are going to die;is that you are to take out the womans whole uterous and try to save both.

Ohhhhh, the "church"........

Why would I want to listen to the church's point of view?

Listen.

In the words of Saint Padre Pio to a man who didn't believe in Hell.


You will believe when you get there.

We do realize that a one week old baby is not a human bieng to you people.
*Whacks with troll whacking stick.*

Quit using the royal we.

I can only hope that you, unlike many who hold the anti-abortion stance realise the difference between ELECTIVE abortions and LATE-TERM abortions.

If not, I'll be forced to throw my hands in the air and give up all hope on humanity ever reaching any level of collective intelligence.

I don't know who is in what country and what their laws are but 8 weeks = 2 months and is inside the period of pregnancy when abortions are allowed in this country. You can have your own views and I respect that, what makes me angry is when people try to make others comply to their views - how far away is that from dictatorship?

ok, this has gone on for quite a while. my opinion is don't do it. Gain some posts. Make some aquaintences. Get your skin boiled on your teeth broken in debates with Dempublicants and Bottle. After that, ask if you can post this mindless stuff. If you are a christian why are you trying to use disgust,pity, conviction, and fear?

Disgust - Its pictures of dead stuff
Pity- The pictures try and bring out an "Oh that poor baby" syndrom
Conviction- The pictures try and bring out an "we killed a living being" which many of these nationstates posters do not believe
Fear - Uh...I forgot this one?

*Whacks with troll whacking stick.*

Quit using the royal we.

it's not Camilla is it?

Listen.

In the words of Saint Padre Pio to a man who didn't believe in Hell.


You will believe when you get there.
Oooooooh scary! I bet I'd believe in the boogey man if I saw him to, but in the words of Hammolopolis: "Ain't gonna happen"

Listen the CHURCH's view that if both are going to die;is that you are to take out the womans whole uterous and try to save both.

I'm Muslim ... why should I listen to your church's view?

Fear - Uh...I forgot this one?
BOO!

That's fear.
:D

Meh!

Photos rarely work. I see those idiots and their signs all the time(the center is next to my dentist), I see people going in there all the time.

It's a horrible choice and the women know it. A photo will rarely change their mind once it is made.

If forcing someone not to get an abortion is a dictatership then I guess the U.S. is a dictatorship for making murder a crime.

Listen.

In the words of Saint Padre Pio to a man who didn't believe in Hell.


You will believe when you get there.

Who?

Don't start with the "you will go to hell if you have an abortion.." stuff....if you want to scream hell and damnation on everyone then go for it, just don't do it in public or the guys in white will try and get you to wear a buckled up jacket with really really long sleeves!!

ok, this has gone on for quite a while. my opinion is don't do it. Gain some posts. Make some aquaintences. Get your skin boiled on your teeth broken in debates with Dempublicants and Bottle.
Dude, you're asking him to commit suicide by debating with them right off the bat. I mean, I could out-debate this guy on this particular subject and it's one I don't think about too much.

yup


I meant yup to this

Meh!

Photos rarely work. I see those idiots and their signs all the time(the center is next to my dentist), I see people going in there all the time.

It's a horrible choice and the women know it. A photo will rarely change their mind once it is made.

If forcing someone not to get an abortion is a dictatership then I guess the U.S. is a dictatorship for making murder a crime.
It would be a dictatorship for making a neccesary medical procedure a crime.

Listen I am not one to scream burn in hell at people but I am one to say that you will.

If forcing someone not to get an abortion is a dictatership then I guess the U.S. is a dictatorship for making murder a crime.

Abortion is outlawed in the whole of the USA?

It was outlawed here once, all that meant was the death rate shot up amongst young women who died as a result of illegal, unregulated back street abortions....these were performed on women who were very close to birth...are you saying this is the better situation? Why am I going to hell for wanting people to be able to have a decent life and children who are born to those that want them than for the "good old days" when babies were left in sewers to die from exposure...why are you more deserving than me?

Listen I am not one to scream burn in hell at people but I am one to say that you will.

So, if the possibility arrises and your wife/gf or whatever is pregnant and in the same situation as that 'Saint Whoever', you will advise her to die?

Dude, if you say yes, then you should be the one to burn in hell...

Listen I am not one to scream burn in hell at people but I am one to say that you will.
I like how you think thats somehow better.

If abortion was banned, it would almost 100% likely be allowed in cases of rape or if the mother's or child's life was threatened. Also, why would anyone be grossed out by these pictures? I mean, none of the pro-choice poeple think it's alive, right?

Listen I am not one to scream burn in hell at people but I am one to say that you will.

That is somewhat better, now instead of trying to break their chins, you coulda made a better impression, like participating in other debates and getting to know the people here. Of course I am one to talk..heheh 100+ posts

Listen I am not one to scream burn in hell at people but I am one to say that you will.
Ah, I see now. It's obvious you missed the "party in hell" thread. Here's a quick synopsis. We don't give a shit you proselytizing little troll.


Woot, my post count is now even with the year. :cool:

1) In the opinion of many, -live- babies being born are fricking gross. I mean they're all covered in slime and membranes... making all that noise... coming out of a stretched-to-near-tearing circular muscle, oozing its own goop... and possibly bleeding... I mean, honestly, GROSS.

2) Early on, fetuses look like fetal lizards and other animals. Should we cry when a lizard egg fails to hatch? They -are- born much cuter than any baby I've seen... and lizards only sometimes grow up to be Hitler, Stalin, or Dubya...

3) Your Church (By assocation with the bible) has been proven objectively evil and blatantly illogical. I don't give a rat's fetus about what it says.

4) Hell is supposed to be Christian free, why -wouldn't- I want to go there? If I'm going to spend eternity kissing ass, it better be a succubus's. You're not helping your argument.

5) How about the woman just has the fetus -removed- from her? Her body, her rights, so let the bugger live on its own. Heck, let her transfer it to YOUR body if you're so keen on helping it.

Abortion is outlawed in the whole of the USA?

It was outlawed here once, all that meant was the death rate shot up amongst young women who died as a result of illegal, unregulated back street abortions....these were performed on women who were very close to birth...are you saying this is the better situation? Why am I going to hell for wanting people to be able to have a decent life and children who are born to those that want them than for the "good old days" when babies were left in sewers to die from exposure...why are you more deserving than me?




I don't care if making it illegal would force women to endanger their lives if they want it done.It would serve as a deterent.

Listen I am not one to scream burn in hell at people but I am one to say that you will.

Ah...I think you'll find that the only one that can decide that is God..get off the high horse or are you saying you are better than Him?

In addition...the photos that get bandied around of aborted foetuses do not show that the internal organs are not formed or that the bones are not formed...if you picked one up it would be like holding one of those rubber chickens. We do not live in the middle ages....and where does the bible say abortion is evil? It went on in those days too you know.

I don't care if making it illegal would force women to endanger their lives if they want it done.It would serve as a deterent.
http://www.christreformed.org/about/churchlady1.jpg
Well isn't that special?

Oh yeah, and I'm not some overly religious nutjob, as many pro-choice people think. I don't even know what religion I am, or if I even have one. I just know that abortion is morally wrong. As long as you have good morals, I don't care what religion you are, or if you have one. That's for you to believe in, and I'm not one to force my religious beliefs on others.

I don't care if making it illegal would force women to endanger their lives if they want it done.It would serve as a deterent.

It would not be a deterrant.

Are you saying that it is acceptable for an abult to die but not a partially formed foetus? Isn't that evil? Wouldn't that attitude send you to hell as you seem to be condoning murder on a huge scale?

I don't care if making it illegal would force women to endanger their lives if they want it done.It would serve as a deterent.

So you're not actually pro-life, just anti-abortion, eh?

You like seeing people fry on the electric chair?

You like the war in Iraq?

I have a picture right here of a baby that has entrails and a brain and it is 8 weeks old and aborted.

Iraq is becoming a democracy and I am against the death penalty.

I have a picture right here of a baby that has entrails and a brain and it is 8 weeks old and aborted.
Sounds delicious

I have a picture right here of a baby that has entrails and a brain and it is 8 weeks old and aborted.

oh wow.....go on, post it, get banned and live a happy life in your own self important way...

Iraq is becoming a democracy and I am against the death penalty.
Oh god I'm so stupid. I get you now, sorry about taking you seriously before.

I have a picture right here of a baby that has entrails and a brain and it is 8 weeks old and aborted.

I have a picture of Curious George.

http://www.deneroff.com/Images/News%2003/CuriousGeorge_bookcover.jpg

This is a fun game.

You like the war in Iraq?
*Hauls off on Incenjucarania with his troll whacking stick.*

Iraq is becoming a democracy

Via conquest and slaughter.

Do you support blowing people up in their own country when they've done nothing to you or anyone around you or who's even vaguely on your side?

Oh yeah, and I'm not some overly religious nutjob, as many pro-choice people think. I don't even know what religion I am, or if I even have one. I just know that abortion is morally wrong. As long as you have good morals, I don't care what religion you are, or if you have one. That's for you to believe in, and I'm not one to force my religious beliefs on others.

Good for you...I have religious beliefs and I come from a long long line of Christian ministers and have relations that are Catholic priests, I don't try and inflict my views either, I just get angry when other people do - I assume that it is because they are lucky enough to never have been in that situation.

It's not about choice....it's about not having an alternative

Via conquest and slaughter.

Do you support blowing people up in their own country when they've done nothing to you or anyone around you or who's even vaguely on your side?
Its a trap, don't reply!

*Hauls off on Incenjucarania with his troll whacking stick.*

Dude, pointing out blatant hypocracy isn't trolling.

You've been spending too much time with the anti-troll propoganda. They are not trying to marry your women and use your bathrooms.

Only your toothbrushes..

I don't care if making it illegal would force women to endanger their lives if they want it done.It would serve as a deterent.

Way to grab the moral high ground and then turn it into a high-rise apartment block for crack-dealers.

I have a picture of Curious George.

http://www.deneroff.com/Images/News%2003/CuriousGeorge_bookcover.jpg

This is a fun game.

I have a picture of Elmo w/ a green necklace!

http://otakuworld.com/kiss/dolls/images/elmo.gif

I like playing this game too!

Ah, I see now. It's obvious you missed the "party in hell" thread. Here's a quick synopsis. We don't give a shit you proselytizing little troll.


Woot, my post count is now even with the year. :cool:

Wow gotta love those guys...

Anyhow, Local, you are losing terribly. You should leave this thread and let it die. Change your country name. Change your ISP and come back here with the goal to get along and make friends instead of rushing in with pictures of "inhumane acts". These guys are evolutinists,liberals,bashers,athieists, and ultimately smart (yeah I am just picking on those who usually have opposing views to mine, I realize this place is "diverse")

Or atleast start a debate! Using websites to prove your point(s) will only result in others using their websites to break yours. Then it just turns into a fight on which site is credible and which isn't.

I have a rather risque photo. But I wonder if I'll get in trouble if I post is. What the heck. A photo of a wet pussy (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Lacadaemon/Tigerbath4.jpg)

Or atleast start a debate! Using websites to prove your point(s) will only result in others using their websites to break yours. Then it just turns into a fight on which site is credible and which isn't.
My websites can beat up your websites!

Way to grab the moral high ground and then turn it into a high-rise apartment block for crack-dealers.

ROFL! That was pure gold. :)

Listen what are saying is that murder should stay legal because the murders could die doing it the illegal way.

^^^^^^
Yes, now you get it.
I have a rather risque photo. But I wonder if I'll get in trouble if I post is. What the heck. A photo of a wet pussy (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Lacadaemon/Tigerbath4.jpg)
Dirty Beaver Shot (http://www.wildflorida.org/critters/images/beaver.jpg)

this is turning into a joke, bye

Listen what are saying is that murder should stay legal because the murders could die doing it the illegal way.

Actually, what we're saying is that NO OTHER HUMAN BEING (under any circumstances) is free to live of another human being without consent.

So don't accuse us of warping reality when YOU'RE the one wanting to give unformed fetuses rights that NO OTHER HUMAN BEING has.

You can only win a debate by changing the other person's mind.

I don't have the right to take a man's heart to save my life.

You can only win a debate by changing the other person's mind.

Actually, on NS you can only win the debate by leaving the thread and never returning.

Listen what are saying is that murder should stay legal because the murders could die doing it the illegal way.

Are you telling me that nobody in the US is allowed to kill someone who hasn't harmed them?

Come on. You can't be avoiding TV -that- much.

No, thats just leaving the fight.

this is turning into a joke, bye
Wasn't it a joke by the end of page one?

It's not about choice....it's about not having an alternative

Actually, I support abortion in cases of rape or when it threatens the mother's or child's life.

Edit to add: Or, if the mother wants to sacrifice her life to save the child's, that is her decision.

You can only win a debate by changing the other person's mind.
Wrong, you win a debate by refuting the other person's points in an articulate and intelligent manner, and defending your own in a similar manner.

I don't have the right to take a man's heart to save my life.

That's, you know, MY point.

You don't get to attach yourself to another human, EVEN if you'll die, EVEN if they're related to you, and EVEN if you need to do it because THEY did something wrong.

Why, pray, do women not deserve the same rights you have?

Are you telling me that nobody in the US is allowed to kill someone who hasn't harmed them?

Come on. You can't be avoiding TV -that- much.


What does that have to do with what I said.

Joking aside, Shaed's got the word on it.

The human baby is, technically, an infectious agent. It has no legal right to that woman's body anymore than any other organic molecular structure, whether it be a zit or a human being.

Beyond that, consider this: Nobody's being born either way. There's no difference whether or not it had been conceived or not. It's equally not-alive. No loss. It also means that the woman has a better chance of making enough money to HAVE -childREN-, at a later date, rather than having one child that costs more than she can afford, resulting in her refusing to have any further children. One abortion today can mean two happy children in the future.

That's, you know, MY point.

You don't get to attach yourself to another human, EVEN if you'll die, EVEN if they're related to you, and EVEN if you need to do it because THEY did something wrong.

Why, pray, do women not deserve the same rights you have?



To kill their child because they don't want it?

What does that have to do with what I said.

You suggested that killing people was illegal.

To kill their child because they don't want it?

To not have another entity attached to their body against their will.
Emotive language makes you look like an incredibly poor debater.

Joking aside, Shaed's got the word on it.

The human baby is, technically, an infectious agent. It has no legal right to that woman's body anymore than any other organic molecular structure, whether it be a zit or a human being.

Beyond that, consider this: Nobody's being born either way. There's no difference whether or not it had been conceived or not. It's equally not-alive. No loss. It also means that the woman has a better chance of making enough money to HAVE -childREN-, at a later date, rather than having one child that costs more than she can afford, resulting in her refusing to have any further children. One abortion today can mean two happy children in the future.

Okay, I'll kill you so that you won't raise your children on the path to hell.

You suggested that killing people was illegal.


It is.

Your disecting it to make me look stupid.

To kill their child because they don't want it?

Has a fully-living child on this planet died that you could have given food and shelter to?

If yes, then how is that better than abortion, where a non-organism is removed before it becomes a fully-living child that is capable of suffering and fearing?

To not have another entity attached to their body against their will.
Emotive language makes you look like an incredibly poor debater.

If they didn't want then they should have abstained from sex.

Okay, I'll kill you so that you won't raise your children on the path to hell.
He's not an infectious agent.

Okay, I'll kill you so that you won't raise your children on the path to hell.

Seriously, learn the difference between 'killing for killing's sake' and 'severing the connection to another human who has REMOVED CONSENT for that connection'.

Just because the child dies doesn't mean that's the intent. If you really care about the fetuses, find a way to keep them alive outside their mothers.

It is.

Your disecting it to make me look stupid.

Not in all cases. If a man breaks into your house and attacks your family, you can kill him and will not go to prison for it.

Durring the first 6 months of pregnancy a baby no skin over its pain receptors.

If they didn't want then they should have abstained from sex.

It's very hard to practice abstinence when you are raped.

Not in all cases. If a man breaks into your house and attacks your family, you can kill him and will not go to prison for it.

Like I said your disecting it to make me look stupid.

Murder IS illegal generally.

If you really care about the fetuses, find a way to keep them alive outside their mothers.
Wow, that's like saying "If you really care about abortion rights, go work at an abortion clinic"

If they didn't want then they should have abstained from sex.

Consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy, just like how cutting out someone's liver is not consenting to giving up your own.

It's her body. When she removes consent for the fetus to USE her body, it stops using it. Period. If it dies as a result, it's just like hundreds of thousands of other people who die from not getting organ donations.

Would you make organ donations mandatory for everyone? Plan to give up a kidney, a chunk of your liver, and regular donations of blood? What about after death? I bet you wouldn't demand that everyone be *forced* to donate their bodies after death... and they aren't even ALIVE to refuse consent.

It is.

Your disecting it to make me look stupid.

So what's the military then?

Okay, I'll kill you so that you won't raise your children on the path to hell.

Aside from you showing your true nature, you neither have evidence of hell, nor do I intend to breed. I'd never subject my offspring to a world so riddled with psychosis.

It's very hard to practice abstinence when you are raped.


Baby didn't rape her.

Durring the first 6 months of pregnancy a baby no skin over its pain receptors.
http://www.nbc.com/nbc/The_More_You_Know/images/logo.jpg

Baby didn't rape her.
And we shouldn't give it the chance to! Abort it now.

Wow, that's like saying "If you really care about abortion rights, go work at an abortion clinic"

...How? My point is that there's no reason for abortion to be made illegal if all they care about is the fetus. The viable age is continually being pushed back, and the logical step for anti-abortioners is to encourage it to be pushed back as far as possible.

Unless they're actually just out on some sick crusaide to punish women for DARING to have sex, of course.

Originally Posted by Keruvalia
It's very hard to practice abstinence when you are raped.

Most pro-life people, including myself, support abortion in cases of rape.

Consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy, just like how cutting out someone's liver is not consenting to giving up your own.

It's her body. When she removes consent for the fetus to USE her body, it stops using it. Period. If it dies as a result, it's just like hundreds of thousands of other people who die from not getting organ donations.

Would you make organ donations mandatory for everyone? Plan to give up a kidney, a chunk of your liver, and regular donations of blood? What about after death? I bet you wouldn't demand that everyone be *forced* to donate their bodies after death... and they aren't even ALIVE to refuse consent.

Saying ,that the women must give consent to her child to grow inside her is like the government having to give consent to its people for them to be alive.

Baby didn't rape her.

What the hell?!? :rolleyes: :headbang:

I dont like the idea of someone killing someone because they chose to fool around weeks earlier.
Do the crime do the time
18 years of looking after your child.

But maybe kill off rape children-that or give them to the Navy to raise.?
*<(8/)-My Party Hat.

Baby didn't rape her.

I dunno.

She didn't say it could be up in her reproductive organs... So...

Saying ,that the women must give consent to her child to grow inside her is like the government having to give consent to its people for them to be alive.
We don't require the government's existence to live.

Saying ,that the women must give consent to her child to grow inside her is like the government having to give consent to its people for them to be alive.

Yes, that's right, because the people are physically attached to the government, and live off it's nutrients. Living under a government is JUST LIKE living inside the individuals that make it up.

Oh... wait.

Fine, next time I need some blood, I'll hunt you down and just plug myself right in. Don't expect any right to remove consent, because you aren't willing to give women any.

Saying ,that the women must give consent to her child to grow inside her is like the government having to give consent to its people for them to be alive.

Last I checked, in the US, we -are- the government.

And we can deport people.

You know. Severing that connection and putting them outside.

I dont like the idea of someone killing someone because they chose to fool around weeks earlier.
Do the crime do the time
18 years of looking after your child.

But maybe kill off rape children-that or give them to the Navy to raise.?
*<(8/)-My Party Hat.

That's right! Children should be a PUNISHMENT! Curse those women who DARE to have a sexual relationship! Never mind that sex is used by social creatures for more than just procreation! They should have *ignored* their drive to bond with their partners!

If I ever found out I was born soley because some jerk wanted my mother to suffer for having sex, I'd kill myself. No, wait, I'd hunt them down, kill them and THEN kill myself.

I was going to make my own Abortion vs blah thread but i realised people were already over it.-Translation im too immotivated.

I did see a month ago that Wade vs Roe lady wanted the law repealed because new evidence suggests that abortions harm the mother as the body wants to continue the process-or something.

But more importantly do you want me aborted.
Think of the good times weve never had. :(

*<(8/)-My Party Hat.

Last I checked, in the US, we -are- the government.

And we can deport people.

You know. Severing that connection and putting them outside.


But not killing them.

Last I checked, in the US, we -are- the government.

And we can deport people.

You know. Severing that connection and putting them outside.

OMG. I love you.
*drools*
So much eloquence and logic... mmm


^.^

Fine, next time I need some blood, I'll hunt you down and just plug myself right in. Don't expect any right to remove consent, because you aren't willing to give women any.
First of all, I doubt that he'd give you consent to his blood the first place. Second of all, the woman gave consent when she gave her consent to have sex.

That's right! Children should be a PUNISHMENT! Curse those women who DARE to have a sexual relationship! Never mind that sex is used by social creatures for more than just procreation! They should have *ignored* their drive to bond with their partners!

If I ever found out I was born soley because some jerk wanted my mother to suffer for having sex, I'd kill myself. No, wait, I'd hunt them down, kill them and THEN kill myself.
Sorry Shaed id be there for my Women id take the responsibility.
I wanted want her to fell alone.
When i said what i said im thinking about the way id want to handle it it takes two to tango.

Hug?

Yes, that's right, because the people are physically attached to the government, and live off it's nutrients. Living under a government is JUST LIKE living inside the individuals that make it up.

Oh... wait.

Fine, next time I need some blood, I'll hunt you down and just plug myself right in. Don't expect any right to remove consent, because you aren't willing to give women any.


Women procreate the child in their womb.


You are saying that a baby has no right to be born.

First of all, I doubt that he'd give you consent to his blood the first place. Second of all, the woman gave consent when she gave her consent to have sex.
Just because you say she did doesn't make it true.

First of all, I doubt that he'd give you consent to his blood the first place. Second of all, the woman gave consent when she gave her consent to have sex.

Who says consent to sex equals consent to pregnancy? I sure don't. And since it's *me* giving consent when I have sex, I think I get a say in WHAT I'm consenting to.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get to define anything.

Women procreate the child in their womb.


You are saying that a baby has no right to be born.
Yes he is. Thats what this entire debate is about.

Just because you say she did doesn't make it true.
AAAHHHH!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS???
Most pro-life people, including myself, support abortion in cases of rape.

I don't recall the US being required to feed anyone we deport, which is all a woman does by removing a fetus from her system.

And no, a woman has not signed a contract with your spooge, sorry. She's said "You can squirt your DNA at me" Not "You can expect a present from it in nine months".

I don't care if the shape is the same, if the thing squirts fluid, and starts with the same letters, it is NOT a pen.

Unless there's snow involved.

I'm Muslim ... why should I listen to your church's view?
Because your Religeon would rather Stone the Woman to Death??????????

First of all, I doubt that he'd give you consent to his blood the first place. Second of all, the woman gave consent when she gave her consent to have sex.

Wrong giving consent to sex and giving constent to having a child are competley different. The extreme naivity of the statment is slightly scary...

First of all, I doubt that he'd give you consent to his blood the first place. Second of all, the woman gave consent when she gave her consent to have sex.

not always true, my brother being the example. he now has a year old child all because an insane girl friend wanted to get married and he wasnt ready for it. her thought process "oh, i'll stop taking the pill, get pregnant and he'll marry. oh, the guilt he'll feel!" she failed, and hes taking wonderful care of the child his own.

point being, sex and reproducing are two separate things, and consent for one doesnt mean the other is ok.

AAAHHHH!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS???
Most pro-life people, including myself, support abortion in cases of rape.
What I meant by that was, she gave consent to have sex not become pregnant. I didn't say anything about rape.

Like I said your disecting it to make me look stupid.

Murder IS illegal generally.

No ... I'm just pointing out that many things in the world are not black and white issues. You have to allow for gray areas or life will just confuse the hell out of you.

When it comes to the human condition, you cannot quantify 95% of it.

AAAHHHH!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS???
Most pro-life people, including myself, support abortion in cases of rape.


That really isn't true.

I've seen alot of pro-life web sites and shows.

Abortion in the case of rape isn't good either.

Sorry Shaed id be there for my Women id take the responsibility.
I wanted want her to fell alone.
When i said what i said im thinking about the way id want to handle it it takes two to tango.

Hug?

So... it takes two to tango? And where, exactly, is that second part of the two while I'm going through all the health horrors associated with pregnancy? Where is he if I DIE giving birth? Where is he afterwards, when my internal organs (most notably the bladder) may be seriously damaged due to carrying the child? Where is he when I get hot flushes, morning sickness, post-natum depression?

Fuck 'two to tango'. If it's inside me and I don't want it there, it's being removed. If it dies, it dies. If it can be saved, great. Some anti-abortion person can look after the blasted thing.

(*hugs* - don't worry, I get het up in abortion debates, but I won't hold your opinion against you in any other threads)

Because your Religeon would rather Stone the Woman to Death??????????
You! Stop being an asshole.

Because your Religeon would rather Stone the Woman to Death??????????

Thats a cheap shot...

Oi, must people really be reminded that sex and pregnancy are two separate entities that both require separate consent?

Most pro-life people, including myself, support abortion in cases of rape.

I know ... but this LCL guy doesn't.

Who says consent to sex equals consent to pregnancy? I sure don't. And since it's *me* giving consent when I have sex, I think I get a say in WHAT I'm consenting to.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get to define anything.
When you have sex, you do so knowing that there's a very good chance that you'll get pregnant. If you're unwilling to take that risk, you should not be having sex in the first place. If you got pregnant and you didn't want to, that's your fault. It's your problem, and YOU have to raise your child. Actions have consequences whether you like them or not.

Oi, must people really be reminded that sex and pregnancy are two separate entities that both require separate consent?

By the looks of things yup they do! :headbang:

You! Stop being an asshole.
HEy thats not nice.

That really isn't true.

I've seen alot of pro-life web sites and shows.

Abortion in the case of rape isn't good either.
Well, most pro-life people I know, anyway.

When you have sex, you do so knowing that there's a very good chance that you'll get pregnant. If you're unwilling to take that risk, you should not be having sex in the first place. If you got pregnant and you didn't want to, that's your fault. It's your problem, and YOU have to raise your child. Actions have consequences whether you like them or not.
If you have sex while on the pill you know that there is a 99% chance you won't become pregnant and even if you do you can use a morning after pill.

Because your Religeon would rather Stone the Woman to Death??????????

No ... nothing in my religion says anything about stoning anyone to death.

When you have sex, you do so knowing that there's a very good chance that you'll get pregnant. If you're unwilling to take that risk, you should not be having sex in the first place. If you got pregnant and you didn't want to, that's your fault. It's your problem, and YOU have to raise your child. Actions have consequences whether you like them or not.

...

So, following that logic, if I go skiing, and I collide with someone on the snow, and injure them to the point where they need an organ donation to survive, I MUST give them the organ even if I expressly refuse to give consent... simply because I gave consent to partake in an activity that MIGHT have lead to that end?

What sort of insane fantasy world are *you* living in?

If I have sex, but take precautions against getting pregnant (pill, condom), I'm *obviously* not consenting to getting pregnent, nor do I have reason to believe the odds are good I *will* become pregnant.

If I do, I'm taking to legal surgery to correct the matter.

Last I checked, in the US, we -are- the government.

And we can deport people.

You know. Severing that connection and putting them outside.

Not citizens. They can't be deported.

If you have sex while on the pill you know that there is a 99% chance you won't become pregnant and even if you do you can use a morning after pill.
Fine, use the pill. But you still have to accept the fact that it's 99%, and not 100%.

You are saying that a baby has no right to be born.

I'm saying exactly that.

My parents wanted me. It was a stupid mistake on their part. My mother, had she the wisdom, should have found a partner who was more to her tastes than my father, whom she married for his body and his cash flow. To this day, I would find no fault in her had she come to her senses and aborted me. I'm damned glad she didn't, but I'd have been damned glad if someone HAD aborted Hitler, too. It all evens out.

Just because I have the potential to go from DNA spurt to fully functional human being doesn't mean I have the right to ruin someone else's life. They have that OPTION, if they wish to take it, but there's no point where it's there DUTY.

I'm a fairly happy person. I have sexy female friends whom I adore and occassionally date. I have a natural intelligence that makes school a breeze when my ego hasn't made me -too- lazy. I'm stronger than average, will never go bald, and have a powerful immune system. I even come from an upper-middle class family that isn't insane or full of politics. My life, while hardly perfect, rocks compared to the average.

I'm not OWED an ounce of it. I'm just damned lucky.

...

So, following that logic, if I go skiing, and I collide with someone on the snow, and injure them to the point where they need an organ donation to survive, I MUST give them the organ even if I expressly refuse to give consent... simply because I gave consent to partake in an activity that MIGHT have lead to that end?

What sort of insane fantasy world are *you* living in?

If I have sex, but take precautions against getting pregnant (pill, condom), I'm *obviously* not consenting to getting pregnent, nor do I have reason to believe the odds are good I *will* become pregnant.

If I do, I'm taking to legal surgery to correct the matter.

That's the eight amendment in the US though, that argument won't work for abortion.

So... it takes two to tango? And where, exactly, is that second part of the two while I'm going through all the health horrors associated with pregnancy? Where is he if I DIE giving birth? Where is he afterwards, when my internal organs (most notably the bladder) may be seriously damaged due to carrying the child? Where is he when I get hot flushes, morning sickness, post-natum depression?

Fuck 'two to tango'. If it's inside me and I don't want it there, it's being removed. If it dies, it dies. If it can be saved, great. Some anti-abortion person can look after the blasted thing.

(*hugs* - don't worry, I get het up in abortion debates, but I won't hold your opinion against you in any other threads)
Hugs Thanks i can accept your POV mines different just expressing it.
I understand others think differently to me id feel hurt if someone wantede to kill Harlesburg junior thats all.
The navy could look after it._would that do?

Fine, use the pill. But you still have to accept the fact that it's 99%, and not 100%.
Right, and thats why we have abortions. You're just not getting this are you? :p

The point is, when you are 99% sure you aren't going to get pregnant, you obviously aren't giving consent. It might happen, but you didn't give it permission.

I'm saying exactly that.

My parents wanted me. It was a stupid mistake on their part. My mother, had she the wisdom, should have found a partner who was more to her tastes than my father, whom she married for his body and his cash flow. To this day, I would find no fault in her had she come to her senses and aborted me. I'm damned glad she didn't, but I'd have been damned glad if someone HAD aborted Hitler, too. It all evens out.

Just because I have the potential to go from DNA spurt to fully functional human being doesn't mean I have the right to ruin someone else's life. They have that OPTION, if they wish to take it, but there's no point where it's there DUTY.

I'm a fairly happy person. I have sexy female friends whom I adore and occassionally date. I have a natural intelligence that makes school a breeze when my ego hasn't made me -too- lazy. I'm stronger than average, will never go bald, and have a powerful immune system. I even come from an upper-middle class family that isn't insane or full of politics. My life, while hardly perfect, rocks compared to the average.

I'm not OWED an ounce of it. I'm just damned lucky.



Have you ever heard of adoption?

And how comes my picture didn't kill this stupid thread.

Honestly anything that says abortion. :rolleyes:

Not citizens. They can't be deported.

Citizen= Already here, already a full fledged member of society.

Deportable Alien= Not yet a citizen.

Born child=citizen, fetus=Deportable alien.

Not that hard.

Have you ever heard of adoption?

And you are wrong too.

Have you ever heard of adoption?

How many kids have you adopted lately?

Citizen= Already here, already a full fledged member of society.

Deportable Alien= Not yet a citizen.

Born child=citizen, fetus=Deportable alien.

Not that hard.

That's a novel question at law, but are you saying we can terminate deportable aliens.

No ... nothing in my religion says anything about stoning anyone to death.
I know your Religeon is about peace like Christianity.
I said rather not says.
And it would be a Folly of a generalisation to suggest otherwise.

That's a novel question at law, but are you saying we can terminate deportable aliens.

We're allowed to let them die in whatever godsforsaken land we drop them off in, ne?

Thats a cheap shot...
So is killing the Defenceless :eek:

Hugs Thanks i can accept your POV mines different just expressing it.
I understand others think differently to me id feel hurt if someone wantede to kill Harlesburg junior thats all.
The navy could look after it._would that do?

Well, see, what you do is talk to the mother. Explain you'll be there to help her through it. And that she has a choice, but that you hope she'll let you have a say to. If she cares about you at all, she'll at least hear you out. If she doesn't... well, I'd question why you'd want a child with her.

What you *don't* do, however, is say "ALL WOMEN MUST CARRY CHILDREN! IT'S THEIR PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING SEX, THE WHORES"

Because that leads to girls throwing themselves down stairs and overdosing on painkillers.

And anyone who says they deserve that is just absolutely sickening (not directed at Harlesburg)

I know your Religeon is about peace like Christianity.
I said rather not says.
And it would be a Folly of a generalisation to suggest otherwise.

Ah okie ... misunderstood the intention then. :) No harm, no foul.

So is killing the Defenceless :eek:

And christianity doesn't do that no? ;) :D

We're allowed to let them die in whatever godsforsaken land we drop them off in, ne?

Actually no. If they face death (unless it is because they are escaped criminals waiting to be executed in their homeland), we can't return them. They get asylum.

It's also sort of a false analogy:

Using it, a fetus would be a fully vested being at the point at which abortion is no longer an option legally. That means there would be a sort of gap during the third trimester that would prevent abortion even to save the life of the mother. (Citzen/non-citizen is either or, fetus is fully terminable for any reason/terminable to save the life of the mother/born: The two don't really map)

But who cares, it's not like abortion is ever going to be outlawed.

...

So, following that logic, if I go skiing, and I collide with someone on the snow, and injure them to the point where they need an organ donation to survive, I MUST give them the organ even if I expressly refuse to give consent... simply because I gave consent to partake in an activity that MIGHT have lead to that end?

What sort of insane fantasy world are *you* living in?

If I have sex, but take precautions against getting pregnant (pill, condom), I'm *obviously* not consenting to getting pregnent, nor do I have reason to believe the odds are good I *will* become pregnant.

If I do, I'm taking to legal surgery to correct the matter.
No, you do not. You both accepted that risk when you went skiing in the first place. Both of you probably had to sign a waiver saying that only you were responsible for what happened on the slopes. The other person accepted the risk that they could be seriously injured or killed. I am in favor of abortion if the mother's life is being threatened. Your life would be threatened by giving them the organ. If you intentionally crashed into that person, however, their family could probably sue the crap out of you.

And if you take precautions against getting pregnant, you obviously don't want to get pregnant. You are consenting to the risk, however. To answer your question, in my insane fantasy world, people take responsibility for their actions. Obviously, nobody's responsible for their actions in yourworld.

Thats it.

These people had no right to live?

(URL removed by NationStates Moderator - unsuitably graphic)

Well, see, what you do is talk to the mother. Explain you'll be there to help her through it. And that she has a choice, but that you hope she'll let you have a say to. If she cares about you at all, she'll at least hear you out. If she doesn't... well, I'd question why you'd want a child with her.

What you *don't* do, however, is say "ALL WOMEN MUST CARRY CHILDREN! IT'S THEIR PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING SEX, THE WHORES"

Because that leads to girls throwing themselves down stairs and overdosing on painkillers.

And anyone who says they deserve that is just absolutely sickening (not directed at Harlesburg)
Well, see, what you do is talk to the mother. Explain you'll be there to help her through it. And that she has a choice, but that you hope she'll let you have a say to. If she cares about you at all, she'll at least hear you out. If she doesn't... well, I'd question why you'd want a child with her.
That is extremely logical
If im ever lucky enough i wont ask her do you want to have sex but do you want to have my child.(serious no pun or :rolleyes: intended)

Shit did i even remotely suggest that they are Whores?or remotely suggest that they should jump off a cliff etc.
Shit that would break my heart more.
Your so mean to me. :(

Ah okie ... misunderstood the intention then. :) No harm, no foul.
Thats pretty cool too others made a bigger fuss about it than you.

In fact, I'm going to make a full analogy here:

Country A borders Country B. Country A ROCKS. Great place. You go here, you'll live. Country B is a War Zone of death and decay.

Country A maintains relations with Country B. As such, its border isn't so much an impervious wall as it is a road with a border patrol making sure nobody from Country B who doesn't have the papers to become a citizen can get to Country A. However, no matter how many people they have working the border patrol, once in awhile, someone from Country B sneaks in to Country A. Country A, then, has to decide whether they want to pay the extra taxes required to keep that person there until they can become citizens, despite not having been invited, or to deport them back to Country B.

Country A/B=Two people having sex.
Border patrol=Protection
A=Life, B=Abortion.

Does Country A HAVE to take in someone who snuck in from Country B?

Last I checked, the US doesn't.

Thats it.

These people had no right to live?

<REMOVED>

I am not even going to look. Stop being silly. No-one is making you get an abortion.

And christianity doesn't do that no? ;) :D
I dont know maybe you do perhaps its your fault. prove me wrong. ;) :D :rolleyes:

Shit did i even remotely suggest that they are Whores?or remotely suggest that they should jump off a cliff etc.
Shit that would break my heart more.
Your so mean to me. :(

Awwwwww, no. Not you. Not you at all. *feeds Harlesburg a cookie*

But other people (in this thread, even) tend to get all 'ha, well, women who die trying to get illegal abortions are getting what's coming to them'. Mainly because they have absolutely zero empathy, and refuse to admit that they aren't 'pro-life' but 'anti-women' (<-- doesn't apply to all anti-abortioners. Just the fanatics. No offense to those who it doesn't apply to).

I dont know maybe you do perhaps its your fault. prove me wrong. ;) :D :rolleyes:

lol, oh well, we can leave that for another thread :p

Abortion in the case of rape isn't good either
Aha. So what shall raped women who stayed pregnant do then, in your opinion? Raise the children they never wanted to have?

In fact, I'm going to make a full analogy here:

Country A borders Country B. Country A ROCKS. Great place. You go here, you'll live. Country B is a War Zone of death and decay.

Country A maintains relations with Country B. As such, its border isn't so much an impervious wall as it is a road with a border patrol making sure nobody from Country B who doesn't have the papers to become a citizen can get to Country A. However, no matter how many people they have working the border patrol, once in awhile, someone from Country B sneaks in to Country A. Country A, then, has to decide whether they want to pay the extra taxes required to keep that person there until they can become citizens, despite not having been invited, or to deport them back to Country B.

Country A/B=Two people having sex.
Border patrol=Protection
A=Life, B=Abortion.

Does Country A HAVE to take in someone who snuck in from Country B?

Last I checked, the US doesn't.

We don't have to take them, but;

Once someone from country B gets here (i.e. under our jurisdiction), then we can't send them back to a warzone. They get asylum. In fact, they can get asylum just because they are persecuted on certain grounds (like religion or political views), even if it is not a warzone.

Edit: We don't have to have to take them, its not a consitutional requirement or anything, but we do at the moment. That's pretty much the law everywhere. Except Canada, where it is very difficult to get asylum.

I hate these threads that grow faster than I can read them so I'll post my comments thus far and hope I can catch up.

All women should be like Saint Gianna Beretta Molla.
And all Christians should be like JESUS! Tolerant!
Saint Gianna Beretta Molla

She chose not to abort her baby and died shortly after birth because of complications with her womb that she could have fixed safely if she chose to abort her child.
Just trust me when I tell you this, ovarian cancer could NOT be "fixed safely" in 1961. She was a goner no matter what.
I want to know if I can post the site's address.
Here's my vote: you can post the site address, ONLY with the following warning,
"The images seen here are very graphic, probably Photoshopped(tm), pictures of aborted fetuses". There. Does that help? I'm not a mod. That's just my opinion.
We do realize that a one week old baby is not a human bieng to you people.
And so you are also strongly opposed to artificial insemenation, in-vitro fertilization and all that because as you know, some embryos are destroyed, right?

Listen the CHURCH's view that if both are going to die;is that you are to take out the womans whole uterous and try to save both.
Aha! You've piqued my curiosity. What CHURCH is that? Catholic or Christian? There is a difference, you know. Just ask any Christian.

Iraq is becoming a democracy and I am against the death penalty.
Iraq is becoming a WHAT? You're out of your mind! I should really stop reading this right now.

Sounds delicious
You're sick!
I like you.

:)
I have a picture of Elmo w/ a green necklace!

OMG! Does that mean he's a homo? Add him to the Spongebob & Tellytubby list!

Listen, I'm going to make this very clear,

ABORTION
IS
NOT
AN
ISSUE!

There. I said it. I think I've said it before on this forum. Abortion is a SYMPTOM of the real problem of unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.
What all you Pro-Life, Pro-Choice people don't understand is that you're fighting over the wrong freaking topic!
If all of you spent half of your mobilizing energy on PREVENTING unplanned, unwanted pregnancies, you would see a DECLINE in the abotion rate.
FLIPPIN' IDIOTS!

Thats pretty cool too others made a bigger fuss about it than you.

Well ... I try to be nice about things until I have all the facts. I wasn't sure what he said was sarcasm or not, so I gave my generic response just to wait and see.

I don't like flying off the handle. Not that I'm so morally superior, just that I really hate having to apologize. :D

Thats it.

These people had no right to live?


<REMOVED>


Seen 'em. Seen 'em in their original context, which mentions that the majority of the late-term ones are photos of children that DIED IN THE WOMB.

Got that? There was no abortion, just the removal of a corpse. The other late-term ones were aborted because of serious complications with the pregnancy, or an accident *during* birth leading to the infants death.

Way to prove you are incapable of unbiased research.

This is a right?

(URL removed by NationStates Moderator - unsuitably graphic)

But other people (in this thread, even) tend to get all 'ha, well, women who die trying to get illegal abortions are getting what's coming to them'. Mainly because they have absolutely zero empathy, and refuse to admit that they aren't 'pro-life' but 'anti-women' (<-- doesn't apply to all anti-abortioners. Just the fanatics. No offense to those who it doesn't apply to).

Wow. I actually agree with you on one thing. The women shouldn't have been there in the first place, but one death does not correct another. I don't want women to get abortions, but I don't want women to die trying to get them either.

Well you are wrong.


If I want to kill someone but might die doing so should the government help me?

Wow. I actually agree with you on one thing. The women shouldn't have been there in the first place, but one death does not correct another. I don't want women to get abortions, but I don't want women to die trying to get them either.

Then you're like me and the vast majority of pro-choicers - the issue isn't abortions, it's the unwanted pregnancies. What we need is more sex-ed and more emotional help available to young mothers.

Rather than, you know, jerks screaming 'BURN IN HELL!' at every woman even approaching an abortion clinic.

@LCL:
Would you mind to answer my question?
Aha. So what shall raped women who stayed pregnant do then, in your opinion? Raise the children they never wanted to have?

Actually no. If they face death (unless it is because they are escaped criminals waiting to be executed in their homeland), we can't return them. They get asylum.


You realize that 'unless' doesn't really nix the argument, right? And you do know that going back to a poor-as-hell country can mean death, right? I'm pretty sure Castro isn't after too many fetuses.


It's also sort of a false analogy:

Using it, a fetus would be a fully vested being at the point at which abortion is no longer an option legally.


The point is that the US's policy isn't "If they're here, even if we didn't want them to be here, we have to take care of them at our own expense." Next you'll suggest that my analogy is false because real illegal aliens use clothes.

Well you are wrong.


If I want to kill someone but might die doing so should the government help me?

What the hell sort of analogy is that? Are you claiming that women get pregnant just to have abortions? Or that the government helps them get pregnant? Or... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Thats pretty cool too others made a bigger fuss about it than you.

Sorry, i was also being sarcastic in my response...if it was taken the wrong way it was only caus i didn't make myself clear.

Thats it.

These people had no right to live?
<REMOVED>

Why do you feel you have to tell everyone that abortion is a bad thing and that we will all go to hell for it..blah blah...is it because you aren't sure? Is it because you might doubt your own opinion? Could it be you doth protest too much?

First of all, I doubt that he'd give you consent to his blood the first place. Second of all, the woman gave consent when she gave her consent to have sex.
Right. I love this (il)logic. Punish the woman for having sex. Excellent.
How EXACTLY does the man get punished? He can move on and impregnate the next woman, without any fear of punishment.
Priceless.

This is a right?

If blowing up fully-grown human beings with families and histories and love and hate and tears is right, yeah, a half-formed pile of organic matter doesn't really phase me.

I eat meat. I've hunted. I accept that in some situations, killing -fully living beings- isn't an evil event. If organic tissue upsets you, fine. Some of us took a few science courses.

Then you're like me and the vast majority of pro-choicers - the issue isn't abortions, it's the unwanted pregnancies. What we need is more sex-ed and more emotional help available to young mothers.

Rather than, you know, jerks screaming 'BURN IN HELL!' at every woman even approaching an abortion clinic.
Exactly. I think that if you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex in the first place. In my ideal world, abortion clinics wouldn't exist. Not because they were outlawed, but because the only people getting pregnant were the one's who were prepared to raise their child. However, we're a long way away from my ideal world. (Also, we'd all get free cookies on fridays in my ideal world :p )

Women procreate the child in their womb.

Little biology lesson for you kid, circa sixth grade.
Women AND MEN procreate the child in the womb.

Right. I love this (il)logic. Punish the woman for having sex. Excellent.
How EXACTLY does the man get punished? He can move on and impregnate the next woman, without any fear of punishment.
Priceless.
The man should have to raise the child too. And my logic is accepting responsibility, not punishment.

*Reclines in chair with popcorn and contentedly watches Shaed demolish LCL.*

Exactly. I think that if you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex in the first place. In my ideal world, abortion clinics wouldn't exist. Not because they were outlawed, but because the only people getting pregnant were the one's who were prepared to raise their child.

If one were to avoid all risk of causing death of fully viable humans, much less organic masses that have a chance of becoming humans, they'd have to live as hermits with environment suits.

Beyond that, remember:

Option A: Don't have sex.
No baby is born.

Option B: Have sex. Might get pregnant and get an abortion.
No baby is born.

So what's the loss here again?

*Reclines in chair with popcorn and contentedly watches Shaed demolish LCL.*

:D

*Does same*

Right. I love this (il)logic. Punish the woman for having sex. Excellent.
How EXACTLY does the man get punished? He can move on and impregnate the next woman, without any fear of punishment.
Priceless.


Perhaps they don't have condoms where (s)he's from....or common sense!

If one were to avoid all risk of causing death of fully viable humans, much less organic masses that have a chance of becoming humans, they'd have to live as hermits with environment suits.

Beyond that, remember:

Option A: Don't have sex.
No baby is born.

Option B: Have sex. Might get pregnant and get an abortion.
No baby is born.

So what's the loss here again?
The problem with option B is that the baby existed in the first place. It was not born yet, but it still existed.

The point is that the US's policy isn't "If they're here, even if we didn't want them to be here, we have to take care of them at our own expense." Next you'll suggest that my analogy is false because real illegal aliens use clothes.

that's exactly what the US policy is though. If you arrive here illegally, you can request a hearing to determine your status. In the event that your country is a warzone, or you are a member of a persecuted minority, you get to stay.

You can't stay however, because your life is crappy, you actually have to be at risk of dying if you are sent back. It happens all the time. Hell, why do you think so many haitans arrived in the 90s. Why do you think so many vietnamese were allowed to stay in the 70s? Or poles in the 80s?

A lot of chinese used to get in this way too until china liberlized. We also would have to take pretty much any N. Korean that showed up.

And if you are cuban, bang, you're in. (Unless you happen to be elian gonzalez).

Okie the link has been removed by the moderators .... if you made a post quoting the link before it was removed, could I ask nicely that you edit your posts to remove the link?

Awwwwww, no. Not you. Not you at all. *feeds Harlesburg a cookie*

But other people (in this thread, even) tend to get all 'ha, well, women who die trying to get illegal abortions are getting what's coming to them'. Mainly because they have absolutely zero empathy, and refuse to admit that they aren't 'pro-life' but 'anti-women' (<-- doesn't apply to all anti-abortioners. Just the fanatics. No offense to those who it doesn't apply to).
*Takes cookie runs to corner gobbles it up.*-ummm num num-feels better :)

Id like to blame alack of support in general

I only say... I'm always amused when men argue about abortion... I sometimes wonder what time some people come from.

I rather see women go to specialists who can do an abortion following modern medical standards, than seeing them sneak to what's called "Engelmacherin" in German speaking countries, who uses a hot knitting needle to do it.

And yes, abortion is sometimes used as contraception, but who's to blame for that? Take the blame to men who don't want to use a condom, for example.

But anyway... what did Jesus say? Let the one without sin cast the first stone? You could also say people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

This self-pleasing pseudo-morality by some so-called Christians really makes me sick.



What was that with Elmo, the Teletubbies and Barney having an orgy?! AAAAAAH!!! *runs away screaming*

Have you ever heard of adoption?
Yes. Have you heard that most people in the US adopt their babies from OUTSIDE the US. If you really want to make a difference, why don't you go to your state legislator and demand simplification in the adoption laws. It's easier and often LESS COSTLY, to adopt overseas. That doesn't quite help the problem in the US, does it?

Thats it.

These people had no right to live?

(URL removed by NationStates Moderator - unsuitably graphic)
Well, there's your answer. Nope. Not allowed to post it. Still wish I could have seen it. If only to point out all the places the pics had been doctored.

*Reclines in chair with popcorn and contentedly watches Shaed demolish LCL.*

Awww, I'm just the pre-show, on until Bottle and Demi' get here ^.^

Well ... I try to be nice about things until I have all the facts. I wasn't sure what he said was sarcasm or not, so I gave my generic response just to wait and see.

I don't like flying off the handle. Not that I'm so morally superior, just that I really hate having to apologize. :D
Yes i prefer to try and confuse people so it becomes impossible to argue with me but i hate arguing do id rather halfheartedly defuse the situation.

If that dosent work ill just use plausible deniability and accuse them of being a Mod whos changing what i said(my Quotes) :p

I only say... I'm always amused when men argue about abortion... I sometimes wonder what time some people come from.

I rather see women go to specialists who can do an abortion following modern medical standards, than seeing them sneak to what's called "Engelmacherin" in German speaking countries, who uses a hot knitting needle to do it.

And yes, abortion is sometimes used as contraception, but who's to blame for that? Take the blame to men who don't want to use a condom, for example.

But anyway... what did Jesus say? Let the one without sin cast the first stone? You could also say people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

This self-pleasing pseudo-morality by some so-called Christians really makes me sick.



What was that with Elmo, the Teletubbies and Barney having an orgy?! AAAAAAH!!! *runs away screaming*
Hey, if the men don't want to use condoms, the women shouldn't consent to having sex without condoms the first place. If they don't consent and the men force it, then it's rape, not sex. In that case, I believe abortion should be legal.

If that dosent work ill just use plausible deniability and accuse them of being a Mod whos changing what i said(my Quotes) :p

Well now that just sounds like a super-cool way to spend an afternoon. I must try this! :D

Hey, if the men don't want to use condoms, the women shouldn't consent to having sex without condoms the first place. If they don't consent and the men force it, then it's rape, not sex. In that case, I believe abortion should be legal.
Or they could make the morning after pill over the counter if you're over the age of consent in whatever state you live in, but they won't.

Well now that just sounds like a super-cool way to spend an afternoon. I must try this! :D
AHH its so easy and then it links nicely to the confuse them aspect. :p

I only say... I'm always amused when men argue about abortion... I sometimes wonder what time some people come from.


Just because something doesn't directly effect someone doesn't mean they can't have an opinion about it and share that opinion with others.

Hey, if the men don't want to use condoms, the women shouldn't consent to having sex without condoms the first place. If they don't consent and the men force it, then it's rape, not sex. In that case, I believe abortion should be legal.

What if they do use a condom but it fails? Should they still be forced to carry the infant to term? If not, how would you legally determine which couples had used condoms (and thus could get abortions), and which hadn't (and couldn't).

And, for that matter, how would you work out abortions-allowed-due-to-rape? Would abortion be allowed if the woman made an accusition of rape? Or would sha have to wait until after a trial (often take many months, but which point it would be much more dangerous to the woman to get an abortion)? What about if the man appeals a guilty sentance? Would the woman be forced to wait until the appeal is settled (may take over nine-months, in which case she loses her right to abort)?

On the topic of adoption...there are a vast amount of unwanted babies out there, along with unwanted toddlers and young children, they still don't have homes and probably won't. Why would it be acceptable to go through a full term pregnancy and then dump your unwanted newborn with an orphanage to live there with no gaurantee of a future family. That is irresponsible and more unfeeling and inhuman than abortion.

If you want to get on the church wagon perhaps you should remember the religious wars and the Knights Templar (remember they were catholic and monks) who went round raping woman and slaughtering men women and children, including babies.

Don't try and say it's Gods will.....don't dare to think you know what is going on in Gods thoughts...it's just your opinion and as an opinion it is outdated and unjustified

Hatopia - have you never heard of the young girl with the persistant boyfriend who eventually persuades her that really...she won't get pregnant...or the "have unprotected sex or I will leave you" blah blah...it's not just about rape

What if they do use a condom but it fails? Should they still be forced to carry the infant to term? If not, how would you legally determine which couples had used condoms (and thus could get abortions), and which hadn't (and couldn't).

And, for that matter, how would you work out abortions-allowed-due-to-rape? Would abortion be allowed if the woman made an accusition of rape? Or would sha have to wait until after a trial (often take many months, but which point it would be much more dangerous to the woman to get an abortion)? What about if the man appeals a guilty sentance? Would the woman be forced to wait until the appeal is settled (may take over nine-months, in which case she loses her right to abort)?
If they used a condom, yes, I believe they should. Using a condom lessens the risk to a very small amount, but not to zero. To have sex with a condom, they need to accept the small risk that they could get pregnant. It would be much safer, yes. If you don't want to be pregnant, but want to have sex, yes, you should use a condom. But you need to know that it can still fail.

For the second part, I couldn't work that out, you are correct. With an ideal legal system (Heh, must be an oxymoron), it could be determined and worked out. But with ours, it can't. Why do lawyers have to screw up everything? DIE LAWYERS! :sniper: . (Oh, and before anyone uses that against me, I do not really believe that all lawyers should be shot.)