NationStates Jolt Archive

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?
This is perhaps the saddest story I have read. :(

Christians kill people too. Ever hear about the abortion clinic bombings?
NUmbers are everything. Abortion clinic bombings are relatively rare when you get right down to it, and they tend not to kill all that many people.

There are very very few who would cheer what McVeigh did, but there are many who cheer or remain indifferent to what Bin Laden does.That is the difference.

Actually, a lot of backwoods, anti-Fed, crazies in their tin-foil hats spouting conspiracy theories left and right do and did cheer what McVeigh did. There are just as many of those in the world as there are bin Laden sympathizers.

Or, maybe we should define "very, very few". Based on the evidence at hand, I'd say around 250,000 people actively support Osama bin Laden. That's a very liberal estimate, too. May sound like a lot, but if you compare it to the 1.5 BILLION Muslims in the world, it becomes "very, very few".

Now, part of the complaint is the people who "remain indifferent". I bet there's a billion Chinese people who couldn't give two shits about Osama and crew. Why aren't you bitching about them? Does indifference only matter if you're Muslim?

Dirty middle east people?

You do realize that Jesus and all of his disciples and all of his followers for the first 300 years were middle eastern, don't you? Christianity is a middle eastern religion. I absolutely guarantee you that more people have been killed in the name of Jesus than in the name of Allah and in far worse ways.

Take your pick ... a quick beheading or being fried alive in oil.

As for the TV broadcasts, do you have definitive proof that the men doing the beheadings are, in fact, Muslim? From what I can see, the video is a bit blurry and the men are very covered. They could be white folks for all I know.

As a matter of fact, one time stamped beheading video shows it was made while the men in question, were they Muslim, would have been at Salatu-l-Asr.

In short, take your pre-conceived notions and cornhole them. You're clearly just a troll begging for attention and you will get no more from me.

Why don't you go start another thread and lie some more about how you were held prisoner in Vietnam, eh?
Do you have a Phd in Equivocating Sophistry?

Do you have a Phd in Equivocating Sophistry?
ROFLMAO!!! Wow! I couldn't have said it better myself! [/compliments]

Do you have a Phd in Equivocating Sophistry?

Yes. Yes I do.

NUmbers are everything. Abortion clinic bombings are relatively rare when you get right down to it, and they tend not to kill all that many people.

But the fact is that abortion clinic bombings and attacks on physicians who perform abortions do kill people, which goes against the general innuendo from apologists that Christian extremists are less likely to kill people than Islamic extremists.

My take on this subject:
What was an American, living in New Jersey, belonging to a Church based in Egypt, with a wife and two kids, doing in a muslim chat room giving away his home address?

Arms, not automatic weapons, you idiot.

"Shall not be infringed."

The "Founders" as you so pathetically deify them, were fairly against the bearing of arms.
Wow, that's the most ignorant thing I've heard all day. If you'd done ANY research on the topic, you'd know NOTHING could be further from the truth!

I have the misfortune to live in the District of Columbia, which is like you describe Maryland, only ten times worse, and we recently reelected a know felon as city council member. Still, as a whole, DC on its worst day is better than Riyadh on its best.
At least you can carry a gun in Riyadh. :/

Kerry only lost of by 2 percent, I thought that was unheard of in an election during war time. ;)
Try 3.2 percentage point, and 3.5 million votes.

His country didnt even bother to release official estimates of how many muslims it killed, out of simple contempt.
-sigh- The ignorance is...overwhelming.

There ARE no offficial estimates as to bodycounts, BECAUSE the powers that be are trying to avoid the kind of comparisons between Coalition and OpFor losses that were made in Vietnam. They don't want people trying to gauge success of the operation based on kill ratios.

It's called freedom from religion, as freedom of means freedom from. It's in the US constitution. Freedom from religion means I shouldn't have to see Jesus or any other religious figures on the outside as I walk down the street. It wouldn't bother me, but it's a freedom we should have.
Let's put it this way: Dont you think it would bother christians if people were putting inverted crosses on their front lawns, or putting up stands on their roofs proclaiming the beauty of Satan. I can guarantee you that many would be deeply disturbed by that. For some reason, I doubt not being able to put a nativity scene in your front will kill you. If you truly want a nativity scene, why don't you clear out a room in your house and make it specifically a worship room, with a nativity and everything.
Personally, I believe being offended by public displays of religious imagery is rather over-the-top, but it's a right we're guaranteed and thus a right we deserve. The freedom of/from religion statement protects both the rights of the disturbed [insert faith] offended by the christian nativity, as well as the christian who finds inverted crosses on people's lawns equally disturbing.

Anyhow, as for this case, I can feel nothing but sadness in my heart. No matter how militant or irrational he was, none of us deserve to die for our beliefs.
Since you have so little respect for freedom of speech, expression religion, and the right to private property, I suggest you move somewhere where government policy matches your own personal "beliefs."

North Korea.

Fine, but you have to admit we have to be careful how we attack extremeists or otherwise we will just end up creating more of them.
I suggest the Tomahawk Cruise Missile and 5.56x45mm greentip.

I suggest the Tomahawk Cruise Missile and 5.56x45mm greentip.
Oooooooo! MY kinna talk! You do know your armaments, don't ya! :D

My take on this subject:
What was an American, living in New Jersey, belonging to a Church based in Egypt, with a wife and two kids, doing in a muslim chat room giving away his home address?
It's not entirely clear that ...

1. He gave out his home address.

2. It was even someone from the chat room who comitted the murders.

The killings are still under investigation.

[QUOTE=Keruvalia]Actually, a lot of backwoods, anti-Fed, crazies in their tin-foil hats spouting conspiracy theories left and right do and did cheer what McVeigh did. There are just as many of those in the world as there are bin Laden sympathizers.

Or, maybe we should define "very, very few". Based on the evidence at hand, I'd say around 250,000 people actively support Osama bin Laden. /QUOTE]
A poll was conducted in a number of different countries and...territories, questioning people on their most admired "Political figure or world leader." Do you know who won among "Palestinian" Arabs in the Gaza Strip and West Bank?

Osama bin Laden.

Oooooooo! MY kinna talk! You do know your armaments, don't ya! :D
Not bad for a Canadian, eh? :p

A poll was conducted in a number of different countries and...territories, questioning people on their most admired "Political figure or world leader." Do you know who won among "Palestinian" Arabs in the Gaza Strip and West Bank?

Osama bin Laden.

Great! I answered the 2000 census by saying there were 12 Alaskan Natives (4 adults and 8 children) living in my apartment.

When was this poll taken?

Not bad for a Canadian, eh? :p
Not bad at all! Beauty, eh? :D

Great! I answered the 2000 census by saying there were 12 Alaskan Natives (4 adults and 8 children) living in my apartment. Thanks for boosting the percieved clout of (one of) my ethnic heritage.

NUmbers are everything. Abortion clinic bombings are relatively rare when you get right down to it, and they tend not to kill all that many people.

You're not getting my point either. What I'm trying to say is that it is not right to carpet-bomb a group of people with hate because a few of the more militant/brainwashed ones did something stupid.

Thanks for boosting the percieved clout of (one of) my ethnic heritage.

Well, I do what I can wherever I can. :D

Great! I answered the 2000 census by saying there were 12 Alaskan Natives (4 adults and 8 children) living in my apartment.

When was this poll taken?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/16/world/main606651.shtml
"Almost two-thirds of the people in Pakistan say they view bin Laden favorably


More than half of those in Jordan and almost half of those polled in Morocco had a favorable view of the Saudi terrorist.

In 2003, Indonesians, Jordanians, Moroccans, Pakistanis and Palestinians all ranked bin Laden among the top three world leaders they most trusted to do the right thing. "

And a poll from Saudi Arabia:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/08/poll.binladen/

"(CNN) -- Almost half of all Saudis said in a poll conducted last year that they have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden's sermons and rhetoric, but fewer than 5 percent thought it was a good idea for bin Laden to rule the Arabian Peninsula."

Even if we discount foreign nationals, women, and young'uns, that gives us an absolute minimum of 3 MILLION Saudis who "have a favourable view of Osama bin Laden's sermons and rhetoric," and 300,000 who "think it would be a good idea for bin Laden to rule the Arabian Peninsula."

In Saudi Arabia ALONE.

Oh, and lying on the Census? That's a federal offense.

Oh, and lying on the Census? That's a federal offense.Really? I didn't know. Good thing I answered truthfully last time, I was so tempted not to.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/16/world/main606651.shtml
"Almost two-thirds of the people in Pakistan say they view bin Laden favorably


So *now* you believe CBS?

:rolleyes:

So *now* you believe CBS?

:rolleyes:
Yes, CBS lying about the results of an independant poll. *That* makes sense. :rolleyes:

So *now* you believe CBS?

:rolleyes:

People in America for the most part prefer to selectively believe anything that paints Muslims in the "Genetically Evil" spotlight, even if it's from a source they normally ridicule and blast.

Yes, CBS lying about the results of an independant poll. *That* makes sense. :rolleyes:

All of that aside, I said "actively" support - meaning people who are members of his boys club.

I agree that he is a great leader, just as I agree that Hitler was a great leader.

Doesn't mean I agree with their policies or their methods. Nobody can dispute that these men know how to lead their people, though.

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?
My personal take on threads such as these is that they promote hate, intolerance, ignorance and fear.

It depends on which state you're in.
If you're in a Blue State (generally speaking), and someone hostile enters your property, you have to flee. If you can't flee, you have to cower and beg for your life, and act in an insipid manner, and let them anally rape you and humiliate you before being killed, chopped up into pieces, and packed into a 55-gallon drum of concrete and end up in the Bay.


Hmmm you never have been to Oakland, Orange County, Harlem, Newport.......

There are plenty of guns in the blue states.

I remember a black gal(forgot her name but just remember her), she had two Uzis in her car. For safety reasons. She lived in one of the worst areas of Oakland.

Hell I wouldn't go toe to toe with here. She was big and very mean! ;)

Oh, and lying on the Census? That's a federal offense.

Well, most of us are screwed, then. A couple of the guys said they were into Satanic Chicken Worship as their religion last time. ^_^

But the fact is that abortion clinic bombings and attacks on physicians who perform abortions do kill people, which goes against the general innuendo from apologists that Christian extremists are less likely to kill people than Islamic extremists.

Thank you for clearing up my point.

He wasn't killed by a Muslim, though. He was killed by the Nation of Islam (some believe Farrakhan himself pulled the trigger) and the Nation of Islam is not Muslim.

Ahhh that's makes for a different picture.

For what it's worth; at my job are 2 Pakistani, 2 Indonesian, 1 Kashmir, and 1 Afghan.

They all had very unkind things to say about the Nation of Islam and Farrakahn.

The entire US Army is killing them at a ratio of well more then 10 to 1! Great logic, Chief!

Go enjoy a BLT and some firewater! Dumbass!

Well?

How long and how much does it cost to train 1 American Soldier?

How long and how much does it cost to train 1 terrorist?

Did you write that?

Nope, that credit goes to The Blood Brothers :D



People approve of OBL, and people approved of Hitler, and people approve of Bush, and people approved of Lenin...


...Popularity doesn't make you more right. Fucking hell, didn't you leave high school?

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?

HOw much evidence is there that it was actually muslums that did it? Or is this more racial profiling? Christians have done plenty of terrible things to muslims as well. Lay off.

Christians have been persecuting Moslems and Jews for centuries.... and they're doing it now over in Iraq. Bush is the leader of the Christians right now, not Jesus and certainly not God. He thinks he is the Messiah and he has the right to say who stays and who goes. They've killed thousands of innocent people, including CHILDREN. All for what..... CHEAPER OIL. When will the US leave.... there were no weapons of mass destruction and the people were happy and ALIVE before the US came. ALIVE. Bush is both UnAmerican and UnChristian!!!!

They all had very unkind things to say about the Nation of Islam and Farrakahn.

Yes, that is to be expected. The Nation of Islam teaches false Islam as it teaches intolerance, hatred, and violence. El-Hajj Malik abandoned the Nation of Islam on his Hajj and gave a new message. This redeemed him and brought him to true Islam.

Malcolm X is a hero to most Muslims - regardless of race.

Yes, that is to be expected. The Nation of Islam teaches false Islam as it teaches intolerance, hatred, and violence. El-Hajj Malik abandoned the Nation of Islam on his Hajj and gave a new message. This redeemed him and brought him to true Islam.

Malcolm X is a hero to most Muslims - regardless of race.
Then I am very, very scared.

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?
Your description is vague and your supposition is glaring. What was said back & forth? This has as much to do with the 1st ammerndment as rape has to do with sex. Your supposition appears to be that the victim is an American citizen and the assailants are not. If it is found that the assailant(s) were Muslim can we reasonably assume they are not also American citizens? How do we know the vics were citizens and not Eqyptian immigrants with green cards? Does it matter either way? This is just another murder case. No more, no less.

Christians have been persecuting Moslems and Jews for centuries.... and they're doing it now over in Iraq. Bush is the leader of the Christians right now, not Jesus and certainly not God. He thinks he is the Messiah and he has the right to say who stays and who goes. They've killed thousands of innocent people, including CHILDREN. All for what..... CHEAPER OIL. When will the US leave.... there were no weapons of mass destruction and the people were happy and ALIVE before the US came. ALIVE. Bush is both UnAmerican and UnChristian!!!!
I'm not a Bush supporter, but if you are just going to attack somebody, do it better than that. You make outrageous statements, even if they are correct, they are outrageous. You do add some false facts to it. And for persecution, yes they have persecuted them, but they have persecuted Christians too. Man persecutes Man, it is unfortunately the way of the world. Our problem in Iraq is our inbred American Imperialism and carelessness. So again to reiterate my point. When trying to make a point, especially one that might be supported, or opposed, be civilized. I read it and it made me want to die inside. So try to work on that.

Fucking barbarians. This is becomming a pattern. Muslims kill people because they can't deal with their words and ideas. Theo Van Gogh, this family in my home state, that gay politician in Holland, Rabbi Meyer Kahane, where will it end? Where are the moderate muslims to cooperate with police and help catch the guilty parties? Do we actually need a war on Islam?

that gay politician in Holland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1974572.stm

The killer of Pim Fortuyn is 33, Dutch, white and from the town of Harderwijk, east of Amsterdam. He is not a Muslim.

Then I am very, very scared.

Why? Do you not agree with peace, love, and brotherhood?

Do we actually need a war on Islam?

No ... because you'd lose.

Why? Do you not agree with peace, love, and brotherhood?

I think it's the "by any means necessary" part that scares her.

I think it's the "by any means necessary" part that scares her.

Malcolm X didn't say that about peace, love, and brotherhood.

"I believe in the brotherhood of all men, but I don't believe in wasting brotherhood on anyone who doesn't want to practice it with me. Brotherhood is a two-way street." - Malcom X

Malcolm X didn't say that about peace, love, and brotherhood.

No, but he said it. It's a veiled threat. I'm sure that if Bush said it, it would scare a lot of people.

It's hard to make veiled threats at one point in your career, and then expect people to think you've changed to peace, love, and brotherhood.

While I'm willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, most people are not.

It's hard to make veiled threats at one point in your career, and then expect people to think you've changed to peace, love, and brotherhood.


Redemption is a very difficult thing for people - especially Christians - to understand. It seems they cannot fathom the possibility that someone could make mistakes, then have a revelation that changes them completely, physically and spiritually, for the better.

I suppose if Malcolm X had been born-again Christian, he'd be a national hero and have been elected Senator or something. After all, a drunken coke-head with a criminal record became President twice and, because of his redemption, nothing before the moment matters. Billy Graham is a highly respected spiritual leader to millions of Christians, but when his antisemitism was exposed, the buzz was that "it was a long time ago and he's redeemed himself".

But, alas, Malcolm X's change came about because of Islam and, thus, his redemption doesn't count.

*shrug* Sad, really. But, you're right. That's life in the US.

"I believe in the brotherhood of all men, but I don't believe in wasting brotherhood on anyone who doesn't want to practice it with me. Brotherhood is a two-way street." - Malcom X

When did he say that?

Fucking barbarians. This is becomming a pattern. Muslims kill people because they can't deal with their words and ideas. Theo Van Gogh, this family in my home state, that gay politician in Holland, Rabbi Meyer Kahane, where will it end? Where are the moderate muslims to cooperate with police and help catch the guilty parties? Do we actually need a war on Islam?
Meyer Kahane was a Jewish terrorist. He was fair game for a hit.

When did he say that?

1964 :)

1964 :)

Yeah I looked it up. It's a good quote. The second part of that is "I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment."

Makes perfect sense.

Well, I suppose that's right up there with "if you fly planes into our buildings, you can't go on thinking there won't be a little payback..."

Meyer Kahane was a Jewish terrorist. He was fair game for a hit.
What about the others? Is a family who's only crime was dissent fair game? How about a filmmaker with unpleasant ideas? If that's going to be the way dissent is dealt with Muslims living in non-muslim countries had beter beware.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1974572.stm

The killer of Pim Fortuyn is 33, Dutch, white and from the town of Harderwijk, east of Amsterdam. He is not a Muslim.
Sorry, I must have remembered the story wrong. My mistake

It seems to be a trend. If you criticize Islam, you end up on the wrong end of a gun or knife, or you get an explosive surprise in your driveway.

Keep that up, and there won't be any Americans left who might otherwise sympathize with civilian casualties in a US military campaign.

Americans might just change the channel and watch something else, while the government is encouraged to consider priorities other than looking after the rights of innocents in combat.

I've always thought that Islamic extremist groups were in severe need of a PR firm. Obviously, they don't believe that it's doing any harm to their public image by killing people on TV and frightening old women on TV before blowing their brains out.

It makes me believe that they are completely stupid and disorganized. It makes it far, far easier to dehumanize them. And when it's accompanied by the frenzied speeches they like to make, it makes me change the channel.

At this point, I could care less about their cause(s), and if the US or the Russians (who seem to have a longer running military campaign) proceed to kill them wholesale, I guess I'll hide Keru in my basement (i.e., I'll be interested in saving the Muslims I know), but the rest can be swept under the rug of history.

Blimey, that's interesting...

"Despite statements to the contrary from police and even the grieving relatives, many mourners Monday clung to the belief that Muslims were somehow responsible for the slayings because of the historical differences between Muslims and Coptic Christians in Egypt."

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/nyc-family0118,0,2235026.story?coll=nyc-swapbox1

It seems to be a trend. If you criticize Islam, you end up on the wrong end of a gun or knife, or you get an explosive surprise in your driveway.

People criticize Islam all the time and no harm comes to them. People do it daily on these very forums and they're still around to keep it up. There does come a point when enough is enough, though.

I am a very patient and peaceful man. If people ask questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability and will never tire of doing so. However, if I'm out with my children and someone comes up and starts waving a Bible in my face screaming about how Muslims are going to Hell and I should get on my knees and repent or risk dooming my children, then I will lose my cool and pop the guy in the face ... with a brick. It hasn't happened, mind you, and it's not something I ever expect to happen ... but you never know.

The news, however, would make it out so that I was the terrorist in that situation. There'd be a post made on NS General about how a Muslim extremist bashed a good Christian American with a brick.


Islamic extremist groups ... are completely stupid and disorganized.

Well ... yeah. :D (Yes, I cropped a bit) Everyone knows that. Unfortunately, we get blamed for what they do. Sad state of affairs, really. For some reason, because I am a Muslim, I am required to bow down and cow down and scream tearful apologies and then pick up a rifle and go shoot bin Laden.

As if I could find bin Laden.

What about the others? Is a family who's only crime was dissent fair game? How about a filmmaker with unpleasant ideas? If that's going to be the way dissent is dealt with Muslims living in non-muslim countries had beter beware.
Your premise is faulty therefore, like a building on a bad foundation, the rest of your argument falls down. Kahane was a terrorist but he was, it would appear, your kind of terrorist. Van Gogh wasn't killed by a Muslim. As for the murdered family, I addressed that in post # 291 on page 20 of this thread.

If a member of the I.R.A. sets off a bomb that kills a child in London are all Irish people child murders?

Your premise is faulty therefore, like a building on a bad foundation, the rest of your argument falls down. Kahane was a terrorist but he was, it would appear, your kind of terrorist. Van Gogh wasn't killed by a Muslim. As for the murdered family, I addressed that in post # 291 on page 20 of this thread.

If a member of the I.R.A. sets off a bomb that kills a child in London are all Irish people child murders?
Van Gogh absolutely was killed by a muslim.

Van Gogh absolutely was killed by a muslim.

It's just Pim Fortuyn and this family who weren't...

It's just Pim Fortuyn and this family who weren't...
The family may have been killed by muslims, or they may not. The article says they don't know who did it.

Van Gogh absolutely was killed by a muslim.
You're right, I apologise. But the IRA/all Irish people analogy holds true. An all encompassing condemnation of Muslims is an inordinatly emotional response to the actions of a few who do not represent the entire population.

[QUOTE=Zooke]We have friends and neighbors who are Muslim. Without exception, they are kind, wonderful people. We enjoy our discussions of the differences, but most especially the similarities, in our beliefs. They are as shocked and disgusted by the actions of the terrorists as any Christian or Jew. [QUOTE]


Or,

Maybe that is what they want you to think... while they get ready to cut your head off with a butcher knife...

Nah... Just Kidding.


Actually, I have (over the years) had many friends of many different religions. I, myself was raised as a Catholic, and have been disgusted by the institution of the church for many years. I still believe in Christ. But, I do not believe that Christ ever preached that salvation could only be garnered solely (pun) through faith in Jesus. There were other stipulations involved. Included in those was the idea that you should treat your neighbor as you would yourself. This is also a tenet of Islam. Mohammad preached acceptance of others, not all this hatred. Not all this killing.

Let's face a few facts here:

The United States is hated by Islamic Countries. FACT. Of course, we have aligned ourselves with their historic enemy. We indulge in many freedoms which go against the teachings of Islam. We allow our women to dress scantily. We allow our children to speak in public and our daughters to go to school. We are less and less a male dominated country. We insert ourselves into their domestic disputes, whether we are wanted there or not. We believe that we are right to do this (as a matter of policy) because of our interests. We pass our interests off as being the interests of the rest of the world. In short, we are bullies. Nobody likes a bully. And what is more, we don't care whether or not people agree with the way we do business. Arrogant. That is us... the good ol' U. S. of A.

Of course, we ALL don't believe that way. But who cares, hate us all anyway. After all, you surely don't want to separate out just the fanatical Americans for your hatred. It is so much more easy to hate ALL the Americans. Hey, they deserve it... after all they can't spell Muslim... which just goes to show how disrespectful they are. Not only that, but they insist on painting all the Muslims with the same brush. They think that all Muslims are fanatical killers who hate Americans... oh wait, they do...and want to cut their heads off. (Okay, so some of the Muslims don't want to cut our heads off). Whatever.

I guess people are having a hard time seeing their own hypocracy here. I don't hate you. Please, give me the same consideration. I don't have time to hate. I don't have the energy to hate. I don't have the desire to hate. Nor, do I have the ability to stop you from hating. That is something that only you can do. If I thought it would help, I would pray to your God for you to see things from an Enlightened position, just as I pray to my God for me to see things in an Enlightened way. Sometimes I wish that Armageddon would occur, just to put an end to all this garbage.

Grow up.

Well ... yeah. :D (Yes, I cropped a bit) Everyone knows that. Unfortunately, we get blamed for what they do. Sad state of affairs, really. For some reason, because I am a Muslim, I am required to bow down and cow down and scream tearful apologies and then pick up a rifle and go shoot bin Laden.

As if I could find bin Laden.

That's OK. Bush can't find him, either. And he has a lot more people looking for him.

Malcolm X's change came about because of Islam and, thus, his redemption doesn't count.
It counts with me. Malcolm X saw some things very clearly, IMHO. His statement that African Americans must struggle for their own feedom, and that whites could help, but not do it for them, is golden. Anything worthwhile must be struggled for.

An all encompassing condemnation of Muslims is an inordinatly emotional response to the actions of a few who do not represent the entire population.
I whole-heartedly agree with this. I suspect, although I have no way of proving this, that many more people than not are able to make the distinction that, because some Muslims are fanatical killers does not make all Muslims fanatical killers.

As if I could find bin Laden.

Well, sure. You ALL know where he is hiding!

No ... because you'd lose.

Spoken like a true man of peace. I don't think anyone would win. That is the point. Why do you insist on trying to upset people?

I whole-heartedly agree with this. I suspect, although I have no way of proving this, that many more people than not are able to make the distinction that, because some Muslims are fanatical killers does not make all Muslims fanatical killers.
I'll go out on a limb and dare say that many people are, at best, lazy thinkers that do not test their suppositions against any kind of reality test. Instead of critical, probing thought, it is quicker and easier to slip into comfortable black and white generalizations.

Americans are . . .
Blacks are . . .
Whites are . . .
Muslims are . . .
Christians are . . .

So it goes. All we can do is hope to elevate the conversation and plant a few seeds of questioning thought here & there.

Spoken like a true man of peace. I don't think anyone would win. That is the point. Why do you insist on trying to upset people?

Well if you'd read what I was replying to ...

No matter.

The family may have been killed by muslims, or they may not. The article says they don't know who did it.
You are the one who said they were killed by Muslims. Are you holding out information that is special to you alone or is it just an unsupported conclusion on your part?? :rolleyes:

I wanna see how fast the story is dropped if it turns out not to be Muslims.

It looks like he died because he didn't exercise his Second Amendment rights.

The First Amendment is only as good as your defense of it. In court, on the street, and in your home.

If someone arrests you for your speech, you fight in the courts.

If someone is trying to kill you for speaking, there really isn't time to call the police and wait calmly for them to save you.

If you're not willing to defend your rights in either case, then you deserve to lose them.

So you know the intimate details of how these killings occured? Oh no? So I guess you're jsut making assumptions and leaping to conclusions based on these assumptions. Congrats.

You are the one who said they were killed by Muslims. Are you holding out information that is special to you alone or is it just an unsupported conclusion on your part?? :rolleyes:
I assumed they were because I read the posts in this thread before I read the story.

I wanna see how fast the story is dropped if it turns out not to be Muslims.

Ditto, although I strongly suspect it was indeed a religiously based crime. :(

An all encompassing condemnation of Muslims is an inordinatly emotional response to the actions of a few who do not represent the entire population.

Not to mention totally illogical. Let's put it in the form of a syllogism and make it particular:

Fact: Osama bin Laden kills people.

Fact: Osama bin Laden is a Muslim.

Fact: My next door neighbor is a Muslim.

Conclusion: My next door neighbor kills people.

HELLO! Put this way it sounds more than just a TAD ludicrous.

I believe that is is time for America to stop being so light on these barbarians. It is time to rise up and crush their resistance. They have gone on too long with this murdering and whatnot. They MUST PAY!!!!

I believe that is is time for America to stop being so light on these barbarians. It is time to rise up and crush their resistance. They have gone on too long with this murdering and whatnot. They MUST PAY!!!!
Not to worry. They have been:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/3.stm
A family of 7. Mother and father in the front seat are killed by US troops.

Not to worry. They have been:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/3.stm
A family of 7. Mother and father in the front seat are killed by US troops.
It's a terrible thing, but they should have stopped at the checkpoint.

It looks like he died because he didn't exercise his Second Amendment rights.

The First Amendment is only as good as your defense of it. In court, on the street, and in your home.

If someone arrests you for your speech, you fight in the courts.

If someone is trying to kill you for speaking, there really isn't time to call the police and wait calmly for them to save you.

If you're not willing to defend your rights in either case, then you deserve to lose them.

Because he didnt have a gun or was jumped by suprise him and his family deserve to die ? this wild west attitude is stupid you logic is none existant.

I believe that is is time for America to stop being so light on these barbarians. It is time to rise up and crush their resistance. They have gone on too long with this murdering and whatnot. They MUST PAY!!!!

OMG!

You're violent!

You must be... ONE OF THEM!!!

Right lads, off to Guantanemo with him.

Why? Do you not agree with peace, love, and brotherhood?
Malcolm X was a drug dealer, thief, pimp, draft-dodging coward, racketeer, habitual gambler, and a violent, racist thug.

I think it's the "by any means necessary" part that scares her.
Her?

Her?
Christiania sounds like a chick's name, therefore her.

Malcolm X was a drug dealer, thief, pimp, draft-dodging coward, racketeer, habitual gambler, and a violent, racist thug.

Earlier in his life sure.

But do you have proof of it at the end?

Malcolm X was a drug dealer, thief, pimp, draft-dodging coward, racketeer, habitual gambler, and a violent, racist thug.

And was he still the same after he found true Islam? The Nation of Islam does not count.

After all, before he found religion God's gift to America George W. Bush was an alcoholic, a drug addict, a draft dodger and a (repeat) failed businessman. But after he found it, everyone was quick to overlook those problems.

So why should Malik al-Shabazz be still held accountable for his sordid past when he found true religion?

And was he still the same after he found true Islam? The Nation of Islam does not count.

After all, before he found religion God's gift to America George W. Bush was an alcoholic, a drug addict, a draft dodger and a (repeat) failed businessman. But after he found it, everyone was quick to overlook those problems.

So why should Malik al-Shabazz be still held accountable for his sordid past when he found true religion?

Put simply. Because it not christianity. These christo-fascists have actually adopted the radical muslim (I say radical because not all muslims are homicidal freaks as most of the C-Fs would like to believe) belief that there is only one way to worship gawd, and that all other ways are not only wrong, but sinfull. What's more amazing to me is that it would appear that most 2nd ammendment flag-wavers would, it seems, rather live in a Mad Max style "Gunocracy" as a simple-minded way to prevent these kinds of things from happening. Instead of trying to peacfully talk with the other side, let's just blow them away. :mp5: Sound familiar? STOOPID!!!

After all, before he found religion God's gift to America George W. Bush was an alcoholic,

Granted.

a drug addict,

There's no conclusive evidence of that.

a draft dodger

That is an egrarious falsehood! President Bush served in the Air National Guard with distinction for over five years.

and a (repeat) failed businessman.

He turned the Texas Rangers into a winning team.


And was he still the same after he found true Islam?

I wasn't even aware he had converted to Orthodox Islam. My apologies.

That is an egrarious falsehood! President Bush served in the Air National Guard with distinction for over five years.


The guard was a way to avoid being drafted for Nam.

There was even some guy(republican I think) who said he helped a few Congressmen and what not sons avoid the draft by getting them in the guard.

As it was said. He had mediocre scores and yet got a seat for one of the most prized spots in the guard.

Let's not forget the year in question were he "disappeared" Anybody ever claim that reward that was offered for proof that he was there.

The paycheck stubs is not proof. I think it was Dakini who said her husband was the paymaster of Ft. Hood in the 60's. He said it would be easy to disappear and still collect your stubs in those days.

So by traditional definition the shrub wasn't a draft dodger in the sense of running to Canada.

Yet he still managed to dodge serving in Nam.....

He turned the Texas Rangers into a winning team.

Actually he wasn't the sole owner as I understand multiple guys run the team.

Hmmm didn't he trade Sosa to the Cubs? ;)

Not true. You would just have to have a global reach of hostilities. Which, in fact, we do. Check out the address I gave you.
Now I can understand this one. I am sorry if I caused confusion. No, I don't want armegeddon. I want this violent segment of Islam to be utterly subdued, allowing the rest of us, along with Muslims who aren't interested in doing away with democracy and the rule of law, to get along happily ever after.

They are numerous. Christianity says G-d is one in three, and that salvation comes through faith in Jesus, not works, and that G-d wants us to be his children and enjoy heaven with Him forever. Islam says that allah is one, Jesus was not god, salvation comes through works, not faith, and that heaven is involves sex, virgins, etc. If you are genuinely interested in the differences, and not in making oversimplified judgements, I can point you to some great reasources.

Hold on now. You must know there are many sects of Christianity one of which believes that there is more to salvation then just faith in Jesus. When you point a finger, three are pointing right back at you!

It looks like he died because he didn't exercise his Second Amendment rights.

The First Amendment is only as good as your defense of it. In court, on the street, and in your home.

If someone arrests you for your speech, you fight in the courts.

If someone is trying to kill you for speaking, there really isn't time to call the police and wait calmly for them to save you.

If you're not willing to defend your rights in either case, then you deserve to lose them.

AGREED- dude thats insperational; im going down to the gun store right now!!!

Did you hear that story about how christians invaded a muslim country and smashed it up and turned it into a warzone and killed tens of thousands of muslims?

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.


Wait a minute-what about the story of how some muslims turned a plane into a missile and destroyed two skyscrapers along with over 3,000 innocent victims?

what about the one where some muslims blew up a big warship that wasnt fighting a war?

or the story about the muslims who ran into stores and resturaunts strapped with C-4 explosives ad grenades and killed everyone in them- theres a whole siries of stories on that

Wait a minute-what about the story of how some muslims turned a plane into a missile and destroyed two skyscrapers along with over 3,000 innocent victims?

what about the one where some muslims blew up a big warship that wasnt fighting a war?

or the story about the muslims who ran into stores and resturaunts strapped with C-4 explosives ad grenades and killed everyone in them- theres a whole siries of stories on that
So very true.

And was he still the same after he found true Islam? The Nation of Islam does not count.

After all, before he found religion God's gift to America George W. Bush was an alcoholic, a drug addict, a draft dodger and a (repeat) failed businessman. But after he found it, everyone was quick to overlook those problems.

So why should Malik al-Shabazz be still held accountable for his sordid past when he found true religion?

True- but people diddnt overlook those problems and now half the country hates him, and it was used to gain john kerry votes just like using the swift boad commercials. but john kerry wasnt a true hero (nor was Geaorge W) and the ad quickly backfired

Originally Posted by New Granada
Did you hear that story about how christians invaded a muslim country and smashed it up and turned it into a warzone and killed tens of thousands of muslims?

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.

And if you are talking about the abu gahrib scandal-did you ever think of what the insergents are doing to US troops, prisoners, civilians, and journalists?

Wait a minute-what about the story of how some muslims turned a plane into a missile and destroyed two skyscrapers along with over 3,000 innocent victims?

what about the one where some muslims blew up a big warship that wasnt fighting a war?

or the story about the muslims who ran into stores and resturaunts strapped with C-4 explosives ad grenades and killed everyone in them- theres a whole siries of stories on that


What about that one time you said something, but nobody gave a shit, because your opinion is hateful and worthless?

I think it's sad that everyone (media included) is jumping on the bandwagon to say that the "evil Muslims" did it. Nobody knows who did anything yet. There are other muders of whole families recently in the NY area that have nothing to do with religion of any sort. Nobody in the media is saying anything about those or the possibility that these may all be related most likely because it's much better to put a spin on it to bring up the whole "us v. them" idea.

But hey, let's just all jump to conclusions and argue about religion being a cause in this one case since there isn't enough about religion to argue about without it.

Moslems kill American Christian, his wife and two daughters.

Would it be any less bad if at had been the other way round?

Surely "man kills man, wife and two daughters" is the same really.

Murder is bad. It doesn't matter what religion and nationality of the murderer [or victims] was, even if they do try to use it as justification, people from all religions do that.

What about that one time you said something, but nobody gave a shit, because your opinion is hateful and worthless?

Funny 'cause it's true.

Also no-one dwells on the fact that there are fundamentalist Christians and other religions commiting atrocities too.

Also no-one dwells on the fact that there are fundamentalist Christians and other religions commiting atrocities too.
Oh? Your proof of this?

Funny 'cause it's true.

Also no-one dwells on the fact that there are fundamentalist Christians and other religions commiting atrocities too.
On the same scale as islamofascists?

It looks like he died because he didn't exercise his Second Amendment rights.

The First Amendment is only as good as your defense of it. In court, on the street, and in your home.

If someone arrests you for your speech, you fight in the courts.

If someone is trying to kill you for speaking, there really isn't time to call the police and wait calmly for them to save you.

If you're not willing to defend your rights in either case, then you deserve to lose them.
Vigiliante Style..you must have loved the Movie Punisher.

Vigiliante Style..you must have loved the Movie Punisher.
Self-defense isn't vigilianteism.

Also no-one dwells on the fact that there are fundamentalist Christians and other religions commiting atrocities too.

Could you provide examples?

Could you provide examples?

Kashmir - Hindus are getting into the thick of things as well.

Mississippi - The real life murders which inspired Mississippi Burning. Before dismissing it as a racist issue, keep in mind that historically, the KKK and other white supremacists often used the Bible as a justification for slavery and racism.

Colorado - The murder of Matthew Sheppard was a result of homophobia which is fueled by fundamentalist Christian Beliefs

Abortion Clinic Bombings and Attacks on Physicians - Too many for me to remember off the bat, the arrest and conviction of Operation Rescue Leader Paul Hill for the shooting murder of an abortion clinic doctor is the most vivid.

Kashmir - Hindus are getting into the thick of things as well.

Mississippi - The real life murders which inspired Mississippi Burning. Before dismissing it as a racist issue, keep in mind that historically, the KKK and other white supremacists often used the Bible as a justification for slavery and racism.

Colorado - The murder of Matthew Sheppard was a result of homophobia which is fueled by fundamentalist Christian Beliefs

Abortion Clinic Bombings and Attacks on Physicians - Too many for me to remember off the bat, the arrest and conviction of Operation Rescue Leader Paul Hill for the shooting murder of an abortion clinic doctor is the most vivid.

True, but nowhere near anything on the scale of September 11th or the repeated suicide attacks in Israel.

Kashmir - Hindus are getting into the thick of things as well.

Hindus are not fundamentalist Christians. The number of Hindu terror events is arguably much lower than the number of Islamic terror events in Kashmir.

Mississippi - The real life murders which inspired Mississippi Burning. Before dismissing it as a racist issue, keep in mind that historically, the KKK and other white supremacists often used the Bible as a justification for slavery and racism.

Possible, but not a primary motive. The KKK is a "white" organization first, and pretends to be Christian second. It's about as Christian as the Masons though.

Colorado - The murder of Matthew Sheppard was a result of homophobia which is fueled by fundamentalist Christian Beliefs

It's very, very possible to be homophobic without Christian beliefs. And the majority of Christians are not homophobic, so that doesn't wash. I am a fundamentalist Christian, and I'm not homophobic.


Abortion Clinic Bombings and Attacks on Physicians - Too many for me to remember off the bat, the arrest and conviction of Operation Rescue Leader Paul Hill for the shooting murder of an abortion clinic doctor is the most vivid.
I'll buy this one, because they establish religion as their primary motivation, and Paul Hill was a pastor.

If you compare, however, the number of terrorist acts committed over the past 40 years or so, I bet that Islamic extremists, and Arabs in particular, have the lead position for total number of innocent civilians killed, as well as total number of incidents.

No one comes close.

If you compare, however, the number of terrorist acts committed over the past 40 years or so, I bet that Islamic extremists, and Arabs in particular, have the lead position for total number of innocent civilians killed, as well as total number of incidents.

No one comes close.

What about all the genocides in Africa? They're not Muslim.

What about all the genocides in Africa? They're not Muslim.

Ah. Rwanda is a group activity, like going to a soccer match. We're talking about intermittent terrorist acts by secretly organized small cells of individuals doing things like planting bombs, kidnapping people for sport, and scaring old female social workers before blowing their brains out on television for the evening entertainment spot.

What about all the genocides in Africa? They're not Muslim.
Actually at least two of them are. Sudan has waged a genocidal war against christians and animists in the south of the country, even going so far as to enslave and sell women and children from there. The slaves are routinely beaten, raped, and even sometimes castrated. They are currently waging a genocide in Darfur against their fellow muslims.

If you compare, however, the number of terrorist acts committed over the past 40 years or so, I bet that Islamic extremists, and Arabs in particular, have the lead position for total number of innocent civilians killed, as well as total number of incidents.

No one comes close.

That's because it's about ratio and proportion. Islam is categorized as the largest major religion in the world with believers ranging in the billions. Therefore an extremist fraction of that vast number will seem numerous in comparison to other religions. If Christianity has that much number of worshippers in the world there would proportionately be a higher count and report of extremist Christians who commit various acts of terror.

You're not Terry Gauthier, are you?

You're not Terry Gauthier, are you?

No. Anyone special?

No. Anyone special?
Just someone I remember from 1978.

That's because it's about ratio and proportion. Islam is categorized as the largest major religion in the world with believers ranging in the billions. Therefore an extremist fraction of that vast number will seem numerous in comparison to other religions. If Christianity has that much number of worshippers in the world there would proportionately be a higher count and report of extremist Christians who commit various acts of terror.
There are over two billion Chrisitians in the world, compared to barely a billion Muslims.

There are over two billion Chrisitians in the world, compared to barely a billion Muslims.

Of course that's lumping every single different denomination of Christianity (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness) together into a single category, and I doubt most people would assume that all Christians are the same.

Then again people are comfortable with assuming all Muslims are the same so I could be wrong.

I throw rocks at people like you.

Muslim Suicide Bomber: noun; A man who commits suiciding in attempt to perform an attack against an enemy; A man who has nothing to live for because most of his family was killed by the enemy; A man who has nothing to live for because everyone he loved or cared about is dead.

Of course that's lumping every single different denomination of Christianity (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness) together into a single category, and I doubt most people would assume that all Christians are the same.

Then again people are comfortable with assuming all Muslims are the same so I could be wrong.
Is the number of muslims a lumped together sum? Does it include all shia, sunni, sufi, etc.? If so the comparison is fair.

Is the number of muslims a lumped together sum? Does it include all shia, sunni, sufi, etc.? If so the comparison is fair.

Bah, I don't like Shias but whatever. They're still brothers.

I throw rocks at people like you.

Muslim Suicide Bomber: noun; A man who commits suiciding in attempt to perform an attack against an enemy; A man who has nothing to live for because most of his family was killed by the enemy; A man who has nothing to live for because everyone he loved or cared about is dead.
Actually palestinian culture encourages suicide bombers. Many are teens who don't know any better yet and want to be heros. www.Israel-wat.com/x1_eng.htm#a0c

Actually palestinian culture encourages suicide bombers. Many are teens who don't know any better yet and want to be heros. www.Israel-wat.com/x1_eng.htm#a0c

An Israeli site... great source to find facts about Palestine! sheesh.

An Israeli site... great source to find facts about Palestine! sheesh.
You can attack the source, but can you deny the facts?

Fiction.

Fiction.
Whatever you say.

Besides, promoting 14 year old suicide bombers has never been done. Most of the 14 year olds are young guys that have developed hate for Israel and are sick of being held back.

Besides, promoting 14 year old suicide bombers has never been done. Most of the 14 year olds are young guys that have developed hate for Israel and are sick of being held back.
And thanks for supporting your assertion.

And thanks for supporting your assertion.

You're welcome.

Mmkay ... serious question time ...

Can any of you give me 100%, incontrovertable, undeniable, beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that Osama bin Laden is Muslim?

Have you seen him pray at a Mosque, side by side with other Muslims, in the proper Muslim tradition? Have you seen him fast at Ramadan? Have you actually heard him declare shahadah?

How do you know he isn't a Christian? Can turban+beard not equal anything but Muslim?

I'm reasonably sure, myself, that he thinks he's doing the right thing by Islam ... but even I have never once heard of him calling himself Muslim nor have I any recollection of his declaration of Islam (shahadah).

What would you do if bin Laden turned out to be an Christian? Never mind ... I know what people would say, "Oh! He's not a *true* Christian. Not a *real* Christian."

Yet, it's so easy for you to accept that he's a *true* Muslim when, in fact, you have no proof of who he is. Saying "Allah" isn't enough because even Jewish and Christian Arabs call God "Elah" or "Ilah" ... pretty much the same word to the untrained American ear.

Mmkay ... serious question time ...

Can any of you give me 100%, incontrovertable, undeniable, beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that Osama bin Laden is Muslim?

Have you seen him pray at a Mosque, side by side with other Muslims, in the proper Muslim tradition? Have you seen him fast at Ramadan? Have you actually heard him declare shahadah?

How do you know he isn't a Christian? Can turban+beard not equal anything but Muslim?

I'm reasonably sure, myself, that he thinks he's doing the right thing by Islam ... but even I have never once heard of him calling himself Muslim nor have I any recollection of his declaration of Islam (shahadah).

What would you do if bin Laden turned out to be an Christian? Never mind ... I know what people would say, "Oh! He's not a *true* Christian. Not a *real* Christian."

Yet, it's so easy for you to accept that he's a *true* Muslim when, in fact, you have no proof of who he is. Saying "Allah" isn't enough because even Jewish and Christian Arabs call God "Elah" or "Ilah" ... pretty much the same word to the untrained American ear.

what the fuck?

An Israeli site... great source to find facts about Palestine! sheesh.
Besides, promoting 14 year old suicide bombers has never been done. Most of the 14 year olds are young guys that have developed hate for Israel and are sick of being held back.
Mohda I give you nothing but props. Im glad to see someone on this thread has some fuckin sanity, not to mention intelligence. I agree >%100

what the fuck?

I'm serious ... he's never actually said he's a Muslim and most Muslims say he's not a Muslim, and there is no proof that he's a Muslim ... why is he called a "Muslim Terrorist"?

Mmkay ... serious question time ...

Can any of you give me 100%, incontrovertable, undeniable, beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that Osama bin Laden is Muslim?

Have you seen him pray at a Mosque, side by side with other Muslims, in the proper Muslim tradition? Have you seen him fast at Ramadan? Have you actually heard him declare shahadah?

How do you know he isn't a Christian? Can turban+beard not equal anything but Muslim?

I'm reasonably sure, myself, that he thinks he's doing the right thing by Islam ... but even I have never once heard of him calling himself Muslim nor have I any recollection of his declaration of Islam (shahadah).

What would you do if bin Laden turned out to be an Christian? Never mind ... I know what people would say, "Oh! He's not a *true* Christian. Not a *real* Christian."

Yet, it's so easy for you to accept that he's a *true* Muslim when, in fact, you have no proof of who he is. Saying "Allah" isn't enough because even Jewish and Christian Arabs call God "Elah" or "Ilah" ... pretty much the same word to the untrained American ear.
Last time I checked, the great caliphate had little to nothing to do with christianity.

I'm serious ... he's never actually said he's a Muslim and most Muslims say he's not a Muslim, and there is no proof that he's a Muslim ... why is he called a "Muslim Terrorist"?

Most Muslims say he is not a Muslim because of his acts.

You have any proof to say he is a Christian?

Supposedly, his spiritual advisor al-Kandari is in custidy. He is a Muslim.

Bin Laden's old man was a Muslim was he not?

Last time I checked, the great caliphate had little to nothing to do with christianity.

What "great caliphate"? There hasn't been a Caliph since before bin Laden was born ...

Could it be that maybe, just maybe, like all of the Christians will say that people who have perpetrated horrible atrocities in the name of Jesus were only claiming to be Christian and were not really Christian, that bin Laden isn't really Muslim?

Phew! It's a good thing that Christians never murder anyone.

Phew! It's a good thing that Christians never murder anyone.

Well no!

They aren't really Christians! ;)

You have any proof to say he is a Christian?

No more than I have proof to say he's Muslim. That's why I said, "What if".

Supposedly, his spiritual advisor al-Kandari is in custidy. He is a Muslim.

GWB is a Methodist (liberal sect of Christianity), but his spiritual advisor is a hard-core Baptist Evangelist. shrug.

Bin Laden's old man was a Muslim was he not?

Your parents being Muslim doesn't make you Muslim. Declaring shahadah and living an Islamic life makes you Muslim.

From what I can tell, Osama bin Laden is not Muslim. At all. In any sense of the word.

From what I can tell, Osama bin Laden is not Muslim. At all. In any sense of the word.

Well that is a game(if you can call it that) that all the religions play. If there are people doing bad things, the response of the faithful are invaraible "They aren't really *whatever*"

There are bad eggs in anything.

I don't know. Maybe people should own up and say there are bad Christians and Muslims rather then denying they are apart of the faith.

Er...how am I supposed to react to this? Wait, I know!

Hahahaha! B**ch got served!


...is cursing allowed here, anyway?

I don't know. Maybe people should own up and say there are bad Christians and Muslims rather then denying they are apart of the faith.

Faiths have sets of rules to follow. If those rules aren't followed then it is only right to say "they" aren't following our Faith or aren't a "true" -- whatever.

I am not. I would like an end to the bloodshed, with those already doing the shedding locked up, or executed for their crimes.
K dunno if this has been commented on. But wtf? Wake up. If you execute people thats pretty much exactly what the criminals are doing. You kill people, other people get angry. The criminals need to be punished definetly, but not by exucution, that will lead to more problems.
Also, if it's Muslim's who you are going to be executing, other such radicals will be pumped up by it and go out to prove a point. Just lock them up.

K dunno if this has been commented on. But wtf? Wake up. If you execute people thats pretty much exactly what the criminals are doing. You kill people, other people get angry. The criminals need to be punished definetly, but not by exucution, that will lead to more problems.
Also, if it's Muslim's who you are going to be executing, other such radicals will be pumped up by it and go out to prove a point. Just lock them up.

In Virginia, if someone comes into your house with the intent of doing you serious bodily harm, you don't have to worry about waiting for the police, or how their trial will go later. You can just give them lead poisoning and call the coroner. Perfectly legal.

You might have to replace the carpet, though.

Phew! It's a good thing that Christians never murder anyone.

Apart from some yank nutjob who kills a doctor practicing abortion once in a while, there are very few christians who actually kill on account of their faith. Or are you telling us that coalitions soldiers in Iraq, for example, consider themselves on a religious crusade?
While examples of Muslims killing for religious reasons are numberless. The very first victims being other Muslims.

As far as I'm concerned if people in some other country want to off each other on a regular basis because of something their local religious leader taught them, that's perfectly OK by me - for now and forever.

If they kill Americans, however, or especially if they come to the US and want to kill people, they shouldn't get upset if we want a little payback.

No offense - I don't care what your religion is.

As far as I'm concerned if people in some other country want to off each other on a regular basis because of something their local religious leader taught them, that's perfectly OK by me - for now and forever.

Heart-warming how much yanks care for the rest of the world. For myself, I can't help feeling sick to my stomach for this 16 year old girl who got hung in Iran some time ago for immoral behaviour, whatever they meant by that, just to give one example, or for pakistani people who get killed in their even places of worship because they have the infortune to be either Sunni or Shia. But it's for each one to see what he cares about.

Heart-warming how much yanks care for the rest of the world. For myself, I can't help feeling sick to my stomach for this 16 year old girl who got hung in Iran some time ago for immoral behaviour, whatever they meant by that, just to give one example, or for pakistani people who get killed in their even places of worship because they have the infortune to be either Sunni or Shia. But it's for each one to see what he cares about.

Personally, I can't care about it because too many people don't want the US to come invading to stop it. That, and there's so much of it, it's not possible to address it all. Triage has to be done, and that means that some people aren't going to be saved. At all.

Bush, on the other hand, doesn't mind mentioning the fact that he wants to stop the injustices he perceives (he may start a war over unproven WMD though).

The US didn't invade Germany in WW II to stop the Holocaust - we had other reasons. It didn't hurt, though. And the US gets the credit (along with the Russians) for stopping it.

The US didn't invade Germany in WW II to stop the Holocaust - we had other reasons. It didn't hurt, though. And the US gets the credit (along with the Russians) for stopping it.


I could make a whole argument about the Holocaust and the US involvement in Europe during WWII but I won't because I'd get a lot of hate mail.

Mmkay ... serious question time ...

Can any of you give me 100%, incontrovertable, undeniable, beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that Osama bin Laden is Muslim?

Have you seen him pray at a Mosque, side by side with other Muslims, in the proper Muslim tradition? Have you seen him fast at Ramadan? Have you actually heard him declare shahadah?

How do you know he isn't a Christian? Can turban+beard not equal anything but Muslim?

I'm reasonably sure, myself, that he thinks he's doing the right thing by Islam ... but even I have never once heard of him calling himself Muslim nor have I any recollection of his declaration of Islam (shahadah).

What would you do if bin Laden turned out to be an Christian? Never mind ... I know what people would say, "Oh! He's not a *true* Christian. Not a *real* Christian."

Yet, it's so easy for you to accept that he's a *true* Muslim when, in fact, you have no proof of who he is. Saying "Allah" isn't enough because even Jewish and Christian Arabs call God "Elah" or "Ilah" ... pretty much the same word to the untrained American ear.
He claims to be one. That's good enough for me. Some people claim Bush isn't a true christian. He claims to be one. That's good enough for me. In matters of religion you gotta go by what the person says.

Last time I checked, the great caliphate had little to nothing to do with christianity.
And why would anyone but a muslim refer to taking back al andalus (sp)? You know, that part of Spain that was under muslim control?

I don't like Osama Bin Laden but I do have a teeny bit of respect for him because he's trying to do what's in the best interest of his people. He's not doing it the right way but his intentions are on the right track.

.

From what I can tell, Osama bin Laden is not Muslim. At all. In any sense of the word.
That "no true scotsman" thing gets one nowhere. Every time someone says well (insert ideology) is responsible for (insert attrocity) an adherant to that ideology claims the perpetrators aren't true adherents. (what that convoluted?)

Anyway, If you play that game then nobody is a member of any religion or a supporter of any political ideology because everyone has done something that's frowned upon in their beleif system.

Mmkay ... serious question time ...

Can any of you give me 100%, incontrovertable, undeniable, beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that Osama bin Laden is Muslim?

Have you seen him pray at a Mosque, side by side with other Muslims, in the proper Muslim tradition? Have you seen him fast at Ramadan? Have you actually heard him declare shahadah?

How do you know he isn't a Christian? Can turban+beard not equal anything but Muslim?

I'm reasonably sure, myself, that he thinks he's doing the right thing by Islam ... but even I have never once heard of him calling himself Muslim nor have I any recollection of his declaration of Islam (shahadah).

What would you do if bin Laden turned out to be an Christian? Never mind ... I know what people would say, "Oh! He's not a *true* Christian. Not a *real* Christian."

Yet, it's so easy for you to accept that he's a *true* Muslim when, in fact, you have no proof of who he is. Saying "Allah" isn't enough because even Jewish and Christian Arabs call God "Elah" or "Ilah" ... pretty much the same word to the untrained American ear.


He's a Muslim. He's just not a proper Muslim. He's twisting and turning the words of the Qur'an.

I'm not sure I get your point, caring about other people's fate doesn't necessarily mean invading their countries... if a government feels it absolutely has to take an action there are more, say, subtle ways. But my point was rather personal (like a sense of pertaining to humanity) than political. Though individual political actions are also possible, and they exist, however small they may appear.

The US didn't invade Germany in WW II to stop the Holocaust - we had other reasons. It didn't hurt, though. And the US gets the credit (along with the Russians) for stopping it.

I couldn't agree more, but I don't think it applies to the subject. It's about a religion - Islam - not about such or such country or government. You can't fight an ideology of hatred like you fight an army.

I don't like Osama Bin Laden but I do have a teeny bit of respect for him because he's trying to do what's in the best interest of his people. He's not doing it the right way but his intentions are on the right track.


Yeah, I'm sure that wanting a world where women are shot in the head for listening to music is a damn good idea.

I don't like Osama Bin Laden but I do have a teeny bit of respect for him because he's trying to do what's in the best interest of his people. He's not doing it the right way but his intentions are on the right track.
Bringin the wrath of the US armed forces and the hatred of a large percentage of the American people down upon them is in their best interests?

I never hated muslims before 9/11. I sympathized with the Palestinians. Now I hate them. I'm against genocide on principle, but I could ignore my principles if it was muslims dying. It's not rational. It's bigoted. Maybe I'm an evil person for feeling this way, but it's the way I feel. And Osama helped bring it about.

Yeah, I'm sure that wanting a world where women are shot in the head for listening to music is a damn good idea.


I think I said this before - He's twisting and turning the words of the Qur'an and he's not accomplishing what he wants the right way. Osama bin Laden never encouraged 'shooting women in the head for listening to music'. I'm guessing you're thinking of the Taliban?

Bringin the wrath of the US armed forces and the hatred of a large percentage of the American people down upon them is in their best interests?

I never hated muslims before 9/11. I sympathized with the Palestinians. Now I hate them. I'm against genocide on principle, but I could ignore my principles if it was muslims dying. It's not rational. It's bigoted. Maybe I'm an evil person for feeling this way, but it's the way I feel. And Osama helped bring it about.

In reply to that...

He's not doing it the right

In Virginia, if someone comes into your house with the intent of doing you serious bodily harm, you don't have to worry about waiting for the police, or how their trial will go later. You can just give them lead poisoning and call the coroner. Perfectly legal.

You might have to replace the carpet, though.
But on the point of Muslim radicals, how long you reckon you will stay alive for? I mean, if you shot some Muslim guy trying to kill you or something, surely other such radicals will get uber angry

I think I said this before - He's twisting and turning the words of the Qur'an and he's not accomplishing what he wants the right way. Osama bin Laden never encouraged 'shooting women in the head for listening to music'. I'm guessing you're thinking of the Taliban?

The implementation of the Caliphate, based on his radically pure vision of Wahhabism, would result in a world government very much like the Taliban.

Osama holds his hands over his ears when he hears bells ringing, because he finds music of any kind to be religiously offensive. He also believes it should be forbidden.

No, Osama encouraged the killing of anyone non-Muslim. Anyone he defines as not being Muslim. Even after the establishment of the Caliphate. When the world is purged of non-Muslims, he'll be happy.

That means an awful lot of people get to die.

But on the point of Muslim radicals, how long you reckon you will stay alive for? I mean, if you shot some Muslim guy trying to kill you or something, surely other such radicals will get uber angry

I have a lot of ammunition.

I have a lot of ammunition.
Lol, you would get bombed.. Probably nuked somehow, after you kill like 121 Muslim radical freedom fighter type people things.

The implementation of the Caliphate, based on his radically pure vision of Wahhabism, would result in a world government very much like the Taliban.

There hasn't been a Caliphate in a while. Whatever though, I'll let fate take it's course. I don't like argueing with ignorant people.

Lol, you would get bombed.. Probably nuked somehow, after you kill like 121 Muslim radical freedom fighter type people things.

Well, if anyone gets hurt, I'm not going to be the last one.

Lol, you would get bombed.. Probably nuked somehow, after you kill like 121 Muslim radical freedom fighter type people things.
Browning wouldn't be alone. There's plenty of American's who've had enough.

Browning wouldn't be alone. There's plenty of American's who've had enough.

America, if people haven't noticed, had enough part way through the 911 plot.

That's why one of the planes never made it to its intended target. Because Americans on the plane realized what was going on, and decided that they had had enough.

When another attack happens (and I'm sure it will, as the radicals will not give up), what has come up until this time will seem like a friendly get together. The horror that will be unleashed if America is attacked again is beyond the comprehension of most Europeans.

America, if people haven't noticed, had enough part way through the 911 plot.

That's why one of the planes never made it to its intended target. Because Americans on the plane realized what was going on, and decided that they had had enough.

When another attack happens (and I'm sure it will, as the radicals will not give up), what has come up until this time will seem like a friendly get together. The horror that will be unleashed if America is attacked again is beyond the comprehension of most Europeans.
I agree with you completely on that, and I'm a fuckin' liberal.

America, if people haven't noticed, had enough part way through the 911 plot.

That's why one of the planes never made it to its intended target. Because Americans on the plane realized what was going on, and decided that they had had enough.

When another attack happens (and I'm sure it will, as the radicals will not give up), what has come up until this time will seem like a friendly get together. The horror that will be unleashed if America is attacked again is beyond the comprehension of most Europeans.
I think the comprehension and imagination of most Europeans is alot bigger then that of any American in this matter. Seeing as they never had any kind of full scale war on their soil. And no. That pityfull little skirmish you call the civil war doesn't even come close. But still.
I can hardly wait!!! Maybe we should all sign a petition for Osama + co to make a similar attack quikly.

I noticed the people in the Netherlands had a really short fuse when it comes to being attacked by Moslems as well.

America, if people haven't noticed, had enough part way through the 911 plot.

That's why one of the planes never made it to its intended target. Because Americans on the plane realized what was going on, and decided that they had had enough.

When another attack happens (and I'm sure it will, as the radicals will not give up), what has come up until this time will seem like a friendly get together. The horror that will be unleashed if America is attacked again is beyond the comprehension of most Europeans.
Actually a lot of people think looking back on the second plane that hit the WTC's that either the pilot had lost control at the last second, or that the passengers had realized what would happen, but acted too late to stop it. The second plane almost missed the tower if you look at all the vids.

I noticed the people in the Netherlands had a really short fuse when it comes to being attacked by Moslems as well.
I wish. But this has been building up for years. And it continues to build up.
With the most recent event in mind.
Tuesday a Morrocan, Ali.B (19), was killed in a car accident. He and a friend had snatched the purse from a woman who then chased them in her car as they took off on their motor scooter. She was driving in reverse and accidentily hit the robbers. Ali.B was caught between the car and a tree and died on the spot. Only hours before his death he was in court facing charges for armed robbery. He had robbed a store and tied the owner up at gunpoint. Severly beating his victim. The same day other Morrocans held a get together at the spot of the accident and only the presence of Morrocan fathers with held them from becoming violent. And yesterday they held a remembrance march for him. As if he was the victim of senseless violence or something. *spits*

I noticed the people in the Netherlands had a really short fuse when it comes to being attacked by Moslems as well.

Muslims*, not Moslems.

Muslims*, not Moslems.
thank you, and I just want to say how rediculously retarded alot of you guy's opinions are.

thank you, and I just want to say how rediculously retarded alot of you guy's opinions are.
None match the brilliance of your opinion that wars are started when christian leaders get drunk and become violent. You should write your dissertation on that one.

None match the brilliance of your opinion that wars are started when christian leaders get drunk and become violent. You should write your dissertation on that one.
Thank you. Actually I think I'll take you up on that one

He's a Muslim. He's just not a proper Muslim. He's twisting and turning the words of the Qur'an.
And this, ladies and gentleman, has been your daily dose of refined sophistry*.


*Please note, high levels of refined sophistry in your daily intake have been show to cause dropping levels of the ability to think clearly and you may also experience an illogical and otherwise unexplainable change in your opinions that when examined are found to be absurd.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

Some of you really do
http://img84.exs.cx/img84/8826/stfu2oe.jpg
aww i cant display it...

I think the comprehension and imagination of most Europeans is alot bigger then that of any American in this matter. Seeing as they never had any kind of full scale war on their soil.

True... we never have had a nation REALLY invade here. But I still don't think you can imagine what is coming. Never forget, the only reason you have a country now is because of America.

You all...ALL OF YOU... spend your free time hating America. 'Oh those arrogant bastard Americans,' you say and you look down your f-ing noses at us.

'They are a low brow waste of human flesh,' you say as you drink your tea and eat your little crumpets.

'Oh! how they think they run the world and that only their laws are important,' you say as we send troops all over the world in defense of our beliefs. 'They only think of themselves!'

WELL...

Screw you. Who has come to Europe's defense EVERY TIME you bunch of ungrateful fops have been invaded or attacked? Who drove the invaders out of your stinking little countries? That's right... THE GOOD OLD U. S. OF A. !! (Never had a full scale war on our soil... That's right... we always fight them on your's... for YOU).

And what do we get for our trouble? A bunch of whiny, snot nosed candy asses talking about how terrible we are. Well, get a clue... we ARE terrible... and we are really getting sick of all of your crap.

We spend billions every year on your damn economy. We send humanitarian aid all over the fricking world. We send troops to help keep the peace when little skirmishes break out in small countries and the people there who long for freedom from oppression ask for our help. Nothing we do will ever...EVER... win you to our side... at least not for long (as long as you need us to do your dirty work that is). I used to think the French were the only people in your part of the world not worth saving. Now I know it is all of you.

~~Excerpt from "The Barrister lit the fuse" available now in paperback.

*snip*
Of course you just completely debunked the entire picture of the arrogant, dumb American. :rolleyes: Ah well. But I agree with this part:
They are a low brow waste of human flesh
And I don't eat crumpets. So piss off.

And I don't eat crumpets.
Mmmmmmm, crumpets *drool* :p

Of course you just completely debunked the entire picture of the arrogant, dumb American. :rolleyes: Ah well. But I agree with this part:
They are a low brow waste of human flesh
And I don't eat crumpets. So piss off.

Nice comeback, Nancyboy. What you meant to say was "Thank you, America! I am glad that I am not living in London, Germany." Now, you piss off!

I personally think homosexuality has nothing to do with this thread, so why bring it up?

I personally think homosexuality has nothing to do with this thread, so why bring it up?
I dunno homes.