NationStates Jolt Archive

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?

For your sake, none.

Or are you going to violate your own constitution by curtailing the rights of muslims, just because a very small minority of muslims are freak zealots?

It looks like he died because he didn't exercise his Second Amendment rights.

The First Amendment is only as good as your defense of it. In court, on the street, and in your home.

If someone arrests you for your speech, you fight in the courts.

If someone is trying to kill you for speaking, there really isn't time to call the police and wait calmly for them to save you.

If you're not willing to defend your rights in either case, then you deserve to lose them.

It looks like he died because he didn't exercise his Second Amendment rights.

The First Amendment is only as good as your defense of it. In court, on the street, and in your home.

If someone arrests you for your speech, you fight in the courts.

If someone is trying to kill you for speaking, there really isn't time to call the police and wait calmly for them to save you.

If you're not willing to defend your rights in either case, then you deserve to lose them.

:O

I think I agree with you.

:O

I think I agree with you.
I think I agree too

For your sake, none.

Or are you going to violate your own constitution by curtailing the rights of muslims, just because a very small minority of muslims are freak zealots?
Where the heck did THIS come from? I was soliciting discussion, not antagonism! :headbang:

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?

I have not read or heard the complete story on this but I understand that some very harsh words were exchanged in the chat room between the victim and some Muslim chatters. I just think this points out the need to be civil to each other in the chat rooms and on the forums. There is too much rudeness that is unnecessary.

I just think this points out the need to be civil to each other in the chat rooms and on the forums
Or face the wrath of the M0ds!

Well unless he did something unbelievably stupid, like give out his home address in a chat room, how do they know that they are connected?

I have not read or heard the complete story on this but I understand that some very harsh words were exchanged in the chat room between the victim and some Muslim chatters. I just think this points out the need to be civil to each other in the chat rooms and on the forums. There is too much rudeness that is unnecessary.
Why the fuck should we live in fear of a bunch of barbaric fanatics?

They could just trace his IP

They could just trace his IP
And Forumban him!

Why the fuck should we live in fear of a bunch of barbaric fanatics?


Hey! That's not nice! My country (Canada) hands your visas and passports to those people! they can't be all bad, if Canada is willing to do that. Oh wait they can, Damn Liberal government. -.-

And Forumban him!


Apparently that thought never came into mind... but in theory they did forum ban him. Except he's banned from every forum in the world now. ;)

Apparently that thought never came into mind... but in theory they did forum ban him. Except he's banned from every forum in the world now. ;)

hahaha

Was the american christian a white american?

i ask because i havenot seen anything of this story and wonder since he was joined to an egyptian church. would more fuss have been kicked up if he had been white?

Why the fuck should we live in fear of a bunch of barbaric fanatics?

Please see post #6

hahaha

Was the american christian a white american?

i ask because i havenot seen anything of this story and wonder since he was joined to an egyptian church. would more fuss have been kicked up if he had been white?

From what I saw on TV he was from Egypt or at least his family was orginally from Egypt.

Did you hear that story about how christians invaded a muslim country and smashed it up and turned it into a warzone and killed tens of thousands of muslims?

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.
If we simply made it policy then we're doing a damned poor job of it.

Did you hear that story about how christians invaded a muslim country and smashed it up and turned it into a warzone and killed tens of thousands of muslims?

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.
No. Why don't you tell me about it. And make sure you explain how they're Christians too, while you're at it. :D

Here is the article from the NY Post:



January 16, 2005 -- The father of a murdered New Jersey family was threatened for making anti-Muslim remarks online — and the gruesome quadruple slaying may have been the hateful retaliation, sources told The Post yesterday.

Hossam Armanious, 47, who along with his wife and two daughters was found stabbed to death in his Jersey City home early Friday, would regularly debate religion in a Middle Eastern chat room, one source said.

Armanious, an Egyptian Christian, was well known for expressing his Coptic beliefs and engaging in fiery back-and-forth with Muslims on the Web site paltalk.com.

He "had the reputation for being one of the most outspoken Egyptian Christians," said the source, who had close ties to the family.

The source, who had knowledge of the investigation, refused to specify the anti-Muslim statement. But he said cops told him they were looking into the exchanges as a possible motive.

The married father of two had recently been threatened by Muslim members of the Web site, said a fellow Copt and store clerk who uses the chat room.

"You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you," was the threat, said the clerk, who was online at the time and saw the exchange.

But Armanious refused to back down, according to two sources who use the Web site.

Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy would neither confirm nor deny that cops and prosecutors were looking into the religion motive, saying only that "nothing is being ruled out." But a relative of the mayor who answered the phone at Healy's home said there was information the murders were "religion-related."

"There are several theories we are looking into, but we are not commenting on any of them at this time," said Hudson County Assistant Prosecutor Guy Gregory.

Armanious' fervor apparently rubbed off on his daughter, Sylvia — who would have turned 16 yesterday.

"She was very religious and very opinionated," said Jessica Cimino, 15, a fellow sophomore at Dickenson HS.

A family member who viewed photos of the bloodbath said Sylvia seemed to have taken the most savage punishment.

"When we saw the pictures, you could tell that they were hurt really, really bad in the face; especially Sylvia," said Milad Garas, the high-school sophomore's great-uncle.

The heartless killer not only slit Sylvia's throat, but also sliced a huge gash in her chest and stabbed her in the wrist, where she had a tattoo of a Coptic cross.

Also found murdered were the wife, Amal Garas, and the parents' other daughter, Monica.

Fred Ayed, the deacon at St. George and St. Shenouda Church, where the deeply religious family attended services, said he's worried that the murders could have a ripple effect.

"I am concerned for the safety of our community," said Ayed, who knew Hossam for 30 years. "People are scared because one family was slain like cows," said Moheb Ghabour, publisher of a local newspaper for the Coptic community.

Osama Hassan, director of the Islamic Center of Jersey City, described the relationship between Copts and Muslims as cooperative if not friendly.

"I think there might be people that can get into physical fights, but not to the point of murder," Hassan said.

Both the deacon and uncle poured cold water on the theory that the family were the victims of a robbery gone wrong.

"This is not a robbery, Ayed said. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything."

The FBI confirmed it has been called in to help with the case.


Additional reporting by Heather Gilmore

hahaha

Was the american christian a white american?
Yeah. It's just friggin' hilarous, ain't it! :rolleyes:

And what the hell does his being white or not have to do with it??? :headbang:

First, please spell "Muslims" correctly, and second, I fail to see how the reply you label as antagonistic. Here simply stated what I am about to say...


You cannot judge a religion or culture based on the acts of it's fanatics, remember, the KKK is still an active group in America, should we nuke America to kill all the racistis? How many Christians have commited murders in the last year alone? I remember a wife who drowned her two sons because "god told her to do it", should I judge all Christians as fanatics? No, I shouldn't. When I'm a bit angry I do, but that's wrong of me.


Its also wrong of you to say anything in the respect that you were not trying to antagonize those who might support those of the Islamic faith. Fanatics kill innocent people, Muslim, Christian, you name it.


The Muslims aren't any more evil then anyone else, they are human, they are just like me and you. When you come to that realization, you will be closer to God or a Enlightened State then you are now. Ignorance only breeds hatred and violence, the same ignorance that drove you to create this threat is the same that drive Muslim and Christian Fanatics, so in that respect, you have something in common.

Edit: This was a terrible tradegy and I hope the murders are brought to swift justice. Everyone has the right to speak their mind.

First, please spell "Muslims" correctly, and second, I fail to see how the reply you label as antagonistic. Here simply stated what I am about to say...


You cannot judge a religion or culture based on the acts of it's fanatics, remember, the KKK is still an active group in America, should we nuke America to kill all the racistis? How many Christians have commited murders in the last year alone? I remember a wife who drowned her two sons because "god told her to do it", should I judge all Christians as fanatics? No, I shouldn't. When I'm a bit angry I do, but that's wrong of me.


Its also wrong of you to say anything in the respect that you were not trying to antagonize those who might support those of the Islamic faith. Fanatics kill innocent people, Muslim, Christian, you name it.


The Muslims aren't any more evil then anyone else, they are human, they are just like me and you. When you come to that realization, you will be closer to God or a Enlightened State then you are now. Ignorance only breeds hatred and violence, the same ignorance that drove you to create this threat is the same that drive Muslim and Christian Fanatics, so in that respect, you have something in common.
To whom was this missive addressed?

This is the first I've heard of this, so I could be wrong, but from your post it sounds like it might have been partially the guy's fault.

Why was he posting his Christian religious beliefs in a Moslem chat room? Sure they shouldn't have KILLED him, but that is a really rude thing to do. How would you feel if you were talking in a Christian chatroom, and somebody from a different religion came into it, and told you your beliefs were wrong, and started spouting off about his religion? You'd be pretty mad, to say the least. Also, tensions are already high with Christians and Moslems... we've been attacking them for no reason for years, and missionaries have been trying to convert them for centuries. Don't they have any rights? As in, the right to worship in any way they choose? The right to not be afraid to walk down the street because an American might shoot them? The right not to be grouped under the same umbrella by racist (religionist?) people? There are good Moslems and bad Moslems, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians. Small groups of Moslems who would kill if somebody deeply offended their religion, and Christians who would kill if somebody did the same to theirs.

We shouldn't hate an entire race or religion for something that was probably just the act of a small group of people. If your neighbor killed somebody, does that make all the people on your street killers?

The racism in the US has been allowed to go on for far too long. I don't think that there has been a country this racist since WWII. Are you guys really going to allow that to happen to yourselves? Isn't sitting there hating all Moslems the same thing as sitting there and hating all Jews? Think about how the media is skewing everything. People kill eachother every day for stupid reasons. Why did American papers choose to cover this particular story? It happened in Egypt for goodness' sake. You're being manipulated. Help to stop it.

To the original starter of the thread, yourself. :D


FOR GODDESS SAKES ITS MUSLIM, SPELL IT WITH ME, M-U-S-L-I-M.

Why the fuck should we live in fear of a bunch of barbaric fanatics?
Who the fuck are you calling barbaric fanatics?
I could say the same about the United States Army

Actually I think he was referring to Muslim Fanatics, not Muslims in general. In which case I would support his use of barbarians.


However, should he be referring to Muslims in general, then he is a complete dolt.

I have not read or heard the complete story on this but I understand that some very harsh words were exchanged in the chat room between the victim and some Muslim chatters. I just think this points out the need to be civil to each other in the chat rooms and on the forums. There is too much rudeness that is unnecessary.
So, if you are rude to someone in a chat room they have the right to kill you? This is a America, not Iran. The guy was apparently debating Islam, and the Mohammedans took issue with that. You aren't supposed to question it. I think this portends bad things for America. The global jihad is here now.

This is the first I've heard of this, so I could be wrong, but from your post it sounds like it might have been partially the guy's fault.

Why was he posting his Christian religious beliefs in a Moslem chat room? Sure they shouldn't have KILLED him, but that is a really rude thing to do. How would you feel if you were talking in a Christian chatroom, and somebody from a different religion came into it, and told you your beliefs were wrong, and started spouting off about his religion? You'd be pretty mad, to say the least. Also, tensions are already high with Christians and Moslems... we've been attacking them for no reason for years, and missionaries have been trying to convert them for centuries. Don't they have any rights? As in, the right to worship in any way they choose? The right to not be afraid to walk down the street because an American might shoot them? The right not to be grouped under the same umbrella by racist (religionist?) people? There are good Moslems and bad Moslems, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians. Small groups of Moslems who would kill if somebody deeply offended their religion, and Christians who would kill if somebody did the same to theirs.

We shouldn't hate an entire race or religion for something that was probably just the act of a small group of people. If your neighbor killed somebody, does that make all the people on your street killers?

The racism in the US has been allowed to go on for far too long. I don't think that there has been a country this racist since WWII. Are you guys really going to allow that to happen to yourselves? Isn't sitting there hating all Moslems the same thing as sitting there and hating all Jews? Think about how the media is skewing everything. People kill eachother every day for stupid reasons. Why did American papers choose to cover this particular story? It happened in Egypt for goodness' sake. You're being manipulated. Help to stop it.
I am sick unto death of those who try to turn every incident like this into being somehow the victim's fault!

Here in America, we have the right of free speech. I know this because I have read the US Constitution, and because it's one of the primary reasons I went into the military. If this man wanted to go into a chat room and defend ANYTHING, that was his right as an American, and I personally think anyone who tries to justify this henious act by saying he asked for it by doing so is not only being stupid in the extreme, they're automatically suspect in my book.

I hope they find the perpetrators of this attrocity and hang them at high noon in the new center being built to replace the World Trade Center where "innocent" moslems were defending their right to kill whomever they choose! :mad:

MUSLIM... I'm sorry, is that better? I understand your frustration. I've been on a one-person crusade against people who use the wrong "your" for most of my life. However, I don't think this has anything to do with the poster's original question, or the discussion we have going.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my improper spelling of Muslim.

This is the first I've heard of this, so I could be wrong, but from your post it sounds like it might have been partially the guy's fault.

Why was he posting his Christian religious beliefs in a Moslem chat room? Sure they shouldn't have KILLED him, but that is a really rude thing to do. How would you feel if you were talking in a Christian chatroom, and somebody from a different religion came into it, and told you your beliefs were wrong, and started spouting off about his religion? You'd be pretty mad, to say the least. Also, tensions are already high with Christians and Moslems... we've been attacking them for no reason for years, and missionaries have been trying to convert them for centuries. Don't they have any rights? As in, the right to worship in any way they choose? The right to not be afraid to walk down the street because an American might shoot them? The right not to be grouped under the same umbrella by racist (religionist?) people? There are good Moslems and bad Moslems, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians. Small groups of Moslems who would kill if somebody deeply offended their religion, and Christians who would kill if somebody did the same to theirs.

We shouldn't hate an entire race or religion for something that was probably just the act of a small group of people. If your neighbor killed somebody, does that make all the people on your street killers?

The racism in the US has been allowed to go on for far too long. I don't think that there has been a country this racist since WWII. Are you guys really going to allow that to happen to yourselves? Isn't sitting there hating all Moslems the same thing as sitting there and hating all Jews? Think about how the media is skewing everything. People kill eachother every day for stupid reasons. Why did American papers choose to cover this particular story? It happened in Egypt for goodness' sake. You're being manipulated. Help to stop it.I agree with everything except one thing. The Muslims who killed that guy werent in the right because there was no need to, unless he said something so stupid or hateful it was worth going all the way to his house, even then shouldnt have killed the wife and children. I would never say the muslims in the middle east are bad because they are fighting for freedom and to survive. I wont say theres no such thing as a bad muslim, but considering the morals, the ratio for it is higher with christians

So, if you are rude to someone in a chat room they have the right to kill you? This is a America, not Iran. The guy was apparently debating Islam, and the Mohammedans took issue with that. You aren't supposed to question it. I think this portends bad things for America. The global jihad is here now.

EXACTLY!

Then it would seem to be fairly easy to have a legal hunting season.

Step 1: Get onto a forum where you know there will be Muslims to offend, and perhaps attract the militant ones.

Step 2: Taunt them until they get angry enough to want to kill you.

Step 3: Post your address.

Step 4: Wait in your house with five people armed to the teeth. When they show up to supposedly attack an unarmed family, gun them down as soon as they enter the house.

Step 5: Call CNN, and then the police. You won't be charged with murder, because it's going to be very obvious self-defense.

Why did American papers choose to cover this particular story? It happened in Egypt for goodness' sake. You're being manipulated. Help to stop it.
Actually it happened in New York. You are being callous just because you think it happened in another country. Show some compassion.

Why was he posting his Christian religious beliefs in a Moslem chat room? Sure they shouldn't have KILLED him, but that is a really rude thing to do.So open debate is a bad thing? I personally wouldn't care if someone challenged my beliefs, because I wouldn't mind debating them. If frank discussion and examination of ideas becomes "rude" and then "not allowed" or even "reason to be less concerned about a murder" then America is doomed.

It happened in Egypt for goodness' sake. You're being manipulated. Help to stop it.
Here's a news flash for ya, dweeb:

It happened in NEW JERSEY! Since when is NEW JERSEY in Eqypt???

I remember a while ago the feds busted this guy who had been making threats to local Muslims (This happened a few months after 9/11) and they found in his basement several dozen pounds of C4, RPGs, Assault rifles, .50 cal machine guns etc.

I know a girl from Pakistan and after 9/11 she was driven out of school by a mob of her classmates.

Just thought I would throw these out there.

There is no global jihad, just Muslim and Christian fanatics who would destroy civilization.

If you bothered to read his entire post, he said that while he did have "something coming to him" for so blatantly stirring up a hornets nest he deffinitely should not have been killed for speaking his mind.

Seriously, if you'd stop trying to convert each other you'd realize just how alike the Christian and Muslim versions of God are. Your practically brothers, yet you murder each other, inciting wars and jihads and crusades against each other.

Truely, god will punish those who perverse his good name and his teachings.

This goes for Christian and Muslim alike.

When you die, you will find that you've been sorely mistaken, God promotes love and compassion, NEVER HATRED.

Then it would seem to be fairly easy to have a legal hunting season.

Step 1: Get onto a forum where you know there will be Muslims to offend, and perhaps attract the militant ones.

Step 2: Taunt them until they get angry enough to want to kill you.

Step 3: Post your address.

Step 4: Wait in your house with five people armed to the teeth. When they show up to supposedly attack an unarmed family, gun them down as soon as they enter the house.

Step 5: Call CNN, and then the police. You won't be charged with murder, because it's going to be very obvious self-defense.
Don't be silly. But seriously, no matter what you say to someone, it doesn't give them the right to come to your house armed to the teeth. And if anyone showed up at my house to attack an unarmed family, they would get what is coming to them.

I remember a while ago the feds busted this guy who had been making threats to local Muslims (This happened a few months after 9/11) and they found in his basement several dozen pounds of C4, RPGs, Assault rifles, .50 cal machine guns etc.

I know a girl from Pakistan and after 9/11 she was driven out of school by a mob of her classmates.

Just thought I would throw these out there.
Well thank you so friggin' MUCH! Now I totally understand why that entire family had to die! :rolleyes:

There is no global jihadWillful blindness won't keep you out of it. And before you start comparing Christianity and Islam, do some research. Serious research. And then, before you deny that there is a global jihad on, check out www.jihadwatch.org. Then approach the issues with an open mind.

Then it would seem to be fairly easy to have a legal hunting season.

Step 1: Get onto a forum where you know there will be Muslims to offend, and perhaps attract the militant ones.

Step 2: Taunt them until they get angry enough to want to kill you.

Step 3: Post your address.

Step 4: Wait in your house with five people armed to the teeth. When they show up to supposedly attack an unarmed family, gun them down as soon as they enter the house.

Step 5: Call CNN, and then the police. You won't be charged with murder, because it's going to be very obvious self-defense.......... Well you're little secret is out with this Muslim, but fyi, I would be more likely to burn the house down then run in the front door. How fuckin stupid would you be to do that, plus being the antagonist

Grrr.

Listen here, there is no "global" Jihad, only a group of radical muslims. For it to be a "global" Jihad, every member of Islam would have to take up arms against the Christians.

What do you want? Do you want every Christian and every Muslim to kill each other? Because it sounds like your preaching some preverse message of a armegeddon like doomsday class between the two largest religions of the world.

Well by all means, go ahead, just wait untill those of who follow the true tennets of god, compassion and love, and those who follow the scientific tennets of intelligence and integrity, can watch safely above orbit in starships or something.

I swear, your as bad as Osama Bin Ladin, preaching about a Global Jihad, why don't you just come out and say it? You want another Crusade!

God will not forgive those who try to divide his many children.


I dare you to list the differences between Islam and Christianity.

......... Well you're little secret is out with this Muslim, but fyi, I would be more likely to burn the house down then run in the front door. How fuckin stupid would you be to do that, plus being the antagonist
Well then, I guess scary guys with torches trying to burn down your house would have to be included in the target list. Remember,Phallahstine, trying to kill people is illegal in America, unless they are trying to kill you.

Grrr.

Listen here, there is no "global" Jihad, only a group of radical muslims. For it to be a "global" Jihad, every member of Islam would have to take up arms against the Christians.

What do you want? Do you want every Christian and every Muslim to kill each other? Because it sounds like your preaching some preverse message of a armegeddon like doomsday class between the two largest religions of the world.

Well by all means, go ahead, just wait untill those of who follow the true tennets of god, compassion and love, and those who follow the scientific tennets of intelligence and integrity, can watch safely above orbit in starships or something.

I swear, your as bad as Osama Bin Ladin, preaching about a Global Jihad, why don't you just come out and say it? You want another Crusade!

God will not forgive those who try to divide his many children.


I dare you to list the differences between Islam and Christianity.
Well, I don't call myself a "Christian" in the modern, American mode, but bringing the damned Jihad into America and killing every American with whom you disagree makes me madder than HELL!

Yes but what you support is getting people angry enough to give you whats coming, and then luring them in, so you can kill them for a reason that you gave them to come find your ass. Dont try to rationalize that shit, its retarded.

......... Well you're little secret is out with this Muslim, but fyi, I would be more likely to burn the house down then run in the front door. How fuckin stupid would you be to do that, plus being the antagonist

Here in Virginia, you would have to step onto the property to get to the house to burn it.

If we're laying in wait, it's legal to shoot you as soon as you cross the property line (No Trespassing signs posted, of course).

Purely legal, no matter how much we taunted you on line. Even more legal if you brought weapons or a can of gas.

Here in Virginia, you would have to step onto the property to get to the house to burn it.

If we're laying in wait, it's legal to shoot you as soon as you cross the property line (No Trespassing signs posted, of course).

Purely legal, no matter how much we taunted you on line. Even more legal if you brought weapons or a can of gas.
Yayyy for Virginia! Ditto for North Carolina ... plus we have concealed carry! Mwahahahaha! :D

Here in Virginia, you would have to step onto the property to get to the house to burn it.

If we're laying in wait, it's legal to shoot you as soon as you cross the property line (No Trespassing signs posted, of course).

Purely legal, no matter how much we taunted you on line. Even more legal if you brought weapons or a can of gas.
So you're logic is "go go taunt them, then tell them where you live so you can kill them?" What a fuckin redneck thing to say. fyi, I am in Virginia....

Grrr.

Listen here, there is no "global" Jihad, only a group of radical muslims. For it to be a "global" Jihad, every member of Islam would have to take up arms against the Christians. Not true. You would just have to have a global reach of hostilities. Which, in fact, we do. Check out the address I gave you.

What do you want? Do you want every Christian and every Muslim to kill each other? Because it sounds like your preaching some preverse message of a armegeddon like doomsday class between the two largest religions of the world. Now I can understand this one. I am sorry if I caused confusion. No, I don't want armegeddon. I want this violent segment of Islam to be utterly subdued, allowing the rest of us, along with Muslims who aren't interested in doing away with democracy and the rule of law, to get along happily ever after.

I dare you to list the differences between Islam and Christianity.
They are numerous. Christianity says G-d is one in three, and that salvation comes through faith in Jesus, not works, and that G-d wants us to be his children and enjoy heaven with Him forever. Islam says that allah is one, Jesus was not god, salvation comes through works, not faith, and that heaven is involves sex, virgins, etc. If you are genuinely interested in the differences, and not in making oversimplified judgements, I can point you to some great reasources.

IT PISSES ME OFF TOO.

IF WE COULD JUST ROUND UP ALL THE FREAKING FANATICS THEN WE COULD ALL LIVE IN PEACE.

The Muslims want peace too, you should try talking to one, their nice people. Depends on where they come from though, most from the Middle East are really pissed off at us, we kind of have been interferring in their affairs for about 200 years.

So let me sum up my debate.

MUSLIMS ARE NOT EVIL.

FANATICS ARE EVIL.

THERE ARE CHRISTIAN FANATICS.

WE SHOULD ROUND UP BOTH AND DELIVERY JUSTICE.

Edit: Okay, but don't you think differences like that are rather insignificant? When the overall message is the same? Believe in the one god, practice good will towards humanity?

So you're logic is "go go taunt them, then tell them where you live so you can kill them?" What a fuckin redneck thing to say. fyi, I am in Virginia....

Well, it's also legal to make facetious posts....

Just noting how the law works. BTW, there are two people who have been posted (served with No Trespassing warrants) at my property already (not as the result of Internet forum postings, though).

The police informed me that if either of them steps onto the property, it's perfectly legal to gun them down if the police can't arrive in time to prevent it.

I think you're all taking this the wrong way. After reading about the incident it seems like the guy was trolling/flaming, and I think this is the way in which Sharia Law deals with trollers and flamers. So let this be a lesson to all those trollers and flamers out there - you're next.

*ahem*

Sorry.

So let me sum up my debate.

MUSLIMS ARE NOT EVIL.
Granted. Not all of them anyway.

FANATICS ARE EVIL.
Granted

THERE ARE CHRISTIAN FANATICS.Yeah, but they don't have a religious mandate for killing everyone who doesn't agree with this, and Christianity as a whole unequivocally condemns their actions. I can't say the same for Islam as a whole, where you have Saudi TV saying the Jews are at fault for whatever disaster of the week, that killing "infidels" is a good thing, etc. The mainstream in Islam is going to have to try a lot harder to convine me they don't like jihadist nutsos.

WE SHOULD ROUND UP BOTH AND DELIVERY JUSTICE.Oh, really? How would you recommend doing that? Like Hitler? Or Stalin? That makes you a fanatic too, you realize.

Well, it's also legal to make facetious posts....

Just noting how the law works. BTW, there are two people who have been posted (served with No Trespassing warrants) at my property already (not as the result of Internet forum postings, though).

The police informed me that if either of them steps onto the property, it's perfectly legal to gun them down if the police can't arrive in time to prevent it.
I love the United States of America.

They are numerous. Christianity says G-d is one in three, and that salvation comes through faith in Jesus, not works, and that G-d wants us to be his children and enjoy heaven with Him forever.
You do know that there is an 'O' between the 'I' and the 'P' keys.

Dude, trolling is stupid. But killing someone and their family for trolling is a unspeakable crime that should be prosecuted to the fullest.

Why can't these people, the trolling guy included, use their faith positively instead of using it to justify murder or attacking someone elses beliefs?

There is so much good one can do in the name of God or Allah.

You do know that there is an 'O' between the 'I' and the 'P' keys.
Actually yes, I do. Why I do that has nothing to do with Islam though, so I'll explain elsewhere, some other time.

I love the United States of America.

It depends on which state you're in.

If you're in a Blue State (generally speaking), and someone hostile enters your property, you have to flee. If you can't flee, you have to cower and beg for your life, and act in an insipid manner, and let them anally rape you and humiliate you before being killed, chopped up into pieces, and packed into a 55-gallon drum of concrete and end up in the Bay.

If you're in a Red State (generally speaking), and someone hostile enters, you may open fire (at which point varies by jurisdiction). You don't need to flee as your person and property are regarded with higher value by the state, especially if the intruder has been legally served notice. You may pump them full of holes and call the coroner.

I happen to live in the latter. They also encourage concealed carry and open carry (since July 2004) is the law of the land - you may openly carry a handgun in public everywhere except a church, school, or courtroom without fear of arrest or harassment.

They can't, for example, make you leave a restaurant because they see a pistol in a holster on your waist.

Violent crime has dropped by over 30 percent since the advent of concealed carry here. Hardly the reaction you think you would get, eh? Neighboring Maryland, where they keep adding restrictions, is getting more crime.

Criminals don't want to rob armed people, or burglarize armed households that are allowed to kill them. It's much easier to drive over to Maryland and do something there - the victims will be unarmed, the police won't show up until later, and no one is going to try and kill any criminal there.

Both sides, Christianity and Islam are being enraged by the media and by those in power. If both sides met each other, face to face, instead of hearing about how "evil" each other are on CNN or Saudi TV, thing would be alot different.

But posts like this just feed the confllict, ya know?

Sure, get angry when an innocent is murdered.

But do something positive about it, call for non-violence and understanding!

Don't demand more blood.

Both sides, Christianity and Islam are being enraged by the media and by those in power. If both sides met each other, face to face, instead of hearing about how "evil" each other are on CNN or Saudi TV, thing would be alot different.

But posts like this just feed the confllict, ya know?

Sure, get angry when an innocent is murdered.

But do something positive about it, call for non-violence and understanding!

Don't demand more blood.

I don't demand more blood. But, if you're going to post something inflammatory, make sure you live in a place where you can defend yourself.

Because there area lot of nuts out there.

I request that those of you with faith, go over your feelings on this matter. Do you really believe that the opposing side is so bent on your destruction?

Why call for more blood?

How can you justify such thinking to God?

Edit: I fail to see how calling for an end to violence is inflammentory.

I request that those of you with faith, go over your feelings on this matter. Do you really believe that the opposing side is so bent on your destruction?

Why call for more blood?

How can you justify such thinking to God?

Edit: I fail to see how calling for an end to violence is inflammentory.


I am of the opinion that there are a lot of nuts out there. A nut will use religion to justify his actions, but at the root of it, he's still a nut.

Since there are a lot of nuts, make sure that you're equipped with a nutcracker.

Don't call for blood, but make sure you have a nutcracker.

I think you're all taking this the wrong way. After reading about the incident it seems like the guy was trolling/flaming, and I think this is the way in which Sharia Law deals with trollers and flamers. So let this be a lesson to all those trollers and flamers out there - you're next.

*ahem*

Sorry.
I sincerely hope you're being facetious.

I am of the opinion that there are a lot of nuts out there. A nut will use religion to justify his actions, but at the root of it, he's still a nut.

Since there are a lot of nuts, make sure that you're equipped with a nutcracker.

Don't call for blood, but make sure you have a nutcracker.
Got one. Know how to use it. :D

Violent crime has dropped by over 30 percent since the advent of concealed carry here. Hardly the reaction you think you would get, eh? Neighboring Maryland, where they keep adding restrictions, is getting more crime.

Criminals don't want to rob armed people, or burglarize armed households that are allowed to kill them. It's much easier to drive over to Maryland and do something there - the victims will be unarmed, the police won't show up until later, and no one is going to try and kill any criminal there.I have the misfortune to live in the District of Columbia, which is like you describe Maryland, only ten times worse, and we recently reelected a know felon as city council member. Still, as a whole, DC on its worst day is better than Riyadh on its best.

I have the misfortune to live in the District of Columbia, which is like you describe Maryland, only ten times worse, and we recently reelected a know felon as city council member. Still, as a whole, DC on its worst day is better than Riyadh on its best.

A nut may use religion to justify his actions, or get worked up, or attract help.

A nut will also know the limits of the law, and use them. They will know how to avoid arrest, detection, etc. They will know how far they can go.

Nut, in my book, covers any militant extremist of any ilk.

Do you really believe that the opposing side is so bent on your destruction?Yes. They prove it, preach it, and promulgate it every single day.

Why call for more blood?

I am not. I would like an end to the bloodshed, with those already doing the shedding locked up, or executed for their crimes.

How can you justify such thinking to God?
It is pretty easy to justify striving for peace, and the punishment of evildoers to a G-d who asks for just that.

Edit: I fail to see how calling for an end to violence is inflammentory.I do too. What are you talking about?

I have the misfortune to live in the District of Columbia, which is like you describe Maryland, only ten times worse, and we recently reelected a know felon as city council member. Still, as a whole, DC on its worst day is better than Riyadh on its best.
There's currently a move in Congress to allow private ownership of handguns in DC. I sincerely hope it passes, and that beyond that, they pass a concealed carry law, although that's not likely.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my improper spelling of Muslim.
Arabic to English translations often cause inconsistencies between the spelling of words. Like Muslim to Moselm. Both are correct though.

And if someone pointed this out already, I didn't feel like reading more pages of moronic babbling to see if someone already said this.

Did you hear that story about how christians invaded a muslim country and smashed it up and turned it into a warzone and killed tens of thousands of muslims?

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.
Here here, someone with a brain! :cool: The Bush Adminstration uses religion to justify their actions and through manipulation have the Christians, and more importantly, the Christian fundamentalists on their side.

Not a matter of policy to torture Muslims.

It's a matter of policy to torture anyone who wants to f**k with the US.

They could just trace his IP

And that's what an IP masker is for -- there are these nice, tiny little programs that can send out a different fake IP about every 5 seconds. That way, when you get pinged, you could be in Canada one second and in Australia the next.

Dude, trolling is stupid. But killing someone and their family for trolling is a unspeakable crime that should be prosecuted to the fullest.

Why can't these people, the trolling guy included, use their faith positively instead of using it to justify murder or attacking someone elses beliefs?

There is so much good one can do in the name of God or Allah.

You know, I didn't look at it that way yet. That would have been like us hunting down DF and killing him. Despite how fulfilling that would be in a digital sense, I don't think I could actually do it.

The Bush Adminstration uses religion to justify their actions and through manipulation have the Christians, and more importantly, the Christian fundamentalists on their side.
Yeah. Ain't it a shame a majority of the voting population voted him back into office? Tsk! :D

James, so you would torture anyone who ***ks with the U.S., what happens if someone say, challanges the current administration, aren't they ***king with the U.S.?

If we are the light of the world, as we preach ourselves, I think torture should be illegal, as we say it is, despite the fact we still practice it.

Anyone remember how much of a hell we used to raise when a American soldier was tortured?

Sure, they torture our people, but that dosen't mean we should.

Or else, we can't say we are better then them.

Not a matter of policy to torture Muslims.

It's a matter of policy to torture anyone who wants to f**k with the US.

Aye-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi

Its people like you who make me embarassed to be American

I say we round up all the religious fanatics, militant gun nuts from Va., ACLU people who won't let us put a nativity scene in our front yard etc. etc., dig a deep hole, put them inside of it, pave over the hole and walk away. After that, we would have a utopia.

Nikoko, I can't change US policy.

I can't change who was elected.

Personally, I believe that in the aftermath of 9-11, most Americans (at least 60 percent) don't care what happens to any Arab, or to any Muslim for that matter.

Similar sentiments seem to be growing in Europe. Banning headscarves in France, burning mosques in the Netherlands, and searching Muslim homes and mosques in Germany.

A bad time to be a Muslim, and a bad time to be an Arab.

There's an old saying that it takes a lot to wake a bear in winter, but once you wake it, you'll wish you hadn't bothered the bear.

They didn't have to do 9-11. It is highly unlikely that the political climate that allowed the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan would have existed otherwise.

60 percent of Americans thought the war on Iraq was going the "wrong direction" prior to the election.

They didn't mean we weren't trying hard enough to use diplomacy and gain peace. They meant that we weren't killing enough people. Otherwise, that group of people would have voted for Kerry.

And we knew for a fact that Kerry would not have had the stomach to take more aggressive action.

Kerry only lost of by 2 percent, I thought that was unheard of in an election during war time. ;)

Kerry would not have had the stomach to take more aggressive action.
Or the intellect, or the honesty, or the perseverance, or the sense, or the will, or the ______________ [ add your own positive charcter trait or value ].

Or the intellect, or the honesty, or the perseverance, or the sense, or the will, or the ______________ [ add your own charcter trait or value ].

Honesty is not one of his strong points. Anyone who consistently votes against gun ownership rights, and then turns around and pretends to be a duck hunter and says he's for gun ownership is a liar.

Imagine if Bush went and prayed at a mosque and said he was a Moslem. You wouldn't believe him for a second.

I wasn't fooled by Kerry. He thinks that gun owners are all stupid rednecks.

I have a higher level of education than John Kerry. I'm hardly a stupid redneck (kind of hard for a Korean to be a white boy). If he thinks he can fool voters by pretending to be a duck hunter then he's showing his contempt for me as well.

Showing contempt for people you believe to be less intelligent than yourself in the hopes of gaining their vote is hardly a strong character trait.

Honesty is not one of his strong points. Anyone who consistently votes against gun ownership rights, and then turns around and pretends to be a duck hunter and says he's for gun ownership is a liar.

Imagine if Bush went and prayed at a mosque and said he was a Moslem. You wouldn't believe him for a second.

I wasn't fooled by Kerry. He thinks that gun owners are all stupid rednecks.

I have a higher level of education than John Kerry. I'm hardly a stupid redneck (kind of hard for a Korean to be a white boy). If he thinks he can fool voters by pretending to be a duck hunter then he's showing his contempt for me as well.

Showing contempt for people you believe to be less intelligent than yourself in the hopes of gaining their vote is hardly a strong character trait.
I'll let you in on a lil secret ... the first time around I didn't vote for GW Bush. The second time, I would probably have voted for the devil himself if his opponent had been John "Amoral-opportunist" Kerry. At least I would know who the devil is!

I say we round up all the religious fanatics, militant gun nuts from Va., ACLU people who won't let us put a nativity scene in our front yard etc. etc., dig a deep hole, put them inside of it, pave over the hole and walk away. After that, we would have a utopia.This is exactly the kind of loving, conciliatory attitude that made Pol Pot and Lenin so popular. Hooray for solving problems by killing those who disagree with you! Seriously, if you can't at least offer serious solutions, dont offer scary exasperated ones that have been tried, and which run completely counter to the free spirt attitude you obviously think you posses.

This is exactly the kind of loving, conciliatory attitude that made Pol Pot and Lenin so popular. Hooray for solving problems by killing those who disagree with you! Seriously, if you can't at least offer serious solutions, dont offer scary exasperated ones that have been tried, and which run completely counter to the free spirt attitude you obviously think you posses.
I agree
Siab had alot of good points but that wasnt a good one

First off, Muslim extremists are on the list of possible suspects. News reports this morning say that there were some items missing from the home, so robbery has not been ruled out. I just saw an interview with a friend and member of their church. He says it is believed in the community that the murders were commited my Muslim fanatics. Whereas the news reports have said the victims' throats had been cut, he specifically said they had been beheaded. If this is the actual case, that does speak of the work of vicious fanatics. Originally Posted by Armed Bookworms
Why the fuck should we live in fear of a bunch of barbaric fanatics?

Yes, why should we? Why should anyone, anywhere, live in fear because they follow their own beliefs?

Note I use the terms "extremists" and "fanatics" and Armed Bookworm's term "barbaric fanatics" is quite accurate. That is what people who do this type thing are. They are in no way typical of the Muslim people. I was born of Israeli heritage, converted to Christianity (Catholic) in my 20's,and am married to an Evangelical Christian (Pentecostal). We have friends and neighbors who are Muslim. Without exception, they are kind, wonderful people. We enjoy our discussions of the differences, but most especially the similarities, in our beliefs. They are as shocked and disgusted by the actions of the terrorists as any Christian or Jew. In addition, they must live with the stigma of distrust because of it.

As reported, Mr. Armanious was known for arguing in a chat room with Muslims. As he and his family left Egypt in order to practise their religion freely, he probably had some resentment that he displayed in that chat room. I don't know this, but it is a possible scenerio. How is this different than the heated debates...flaming arguments...that go on on here? How do any of us know that the nutcase we are arguing with isn't a homicidal nutcase that will track us down and kill us?

What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion? .

We and the world should have come to understand the American response to something like this. When someone tries to deny or amend our freedoms and rights we do not cower or capitulate. We are fierce and proud, and do not hesitate to take them on, toe to toe, face to face. In spite of the squabbles among ourselves, if anyone threatens any segment of us, then all color, religion, social standing, education, gender become invisible and we become one...Americans to the core, side by side.

No. Why don't you tell me about it. And make sure you explain how they're Christians too, while you're at it. :D

You see, there is this country in the middle east.

It is predominantly muslim.

This much larger country on the other side of the world has a very special person as its leader, he is a christian and thinks that he is doing God's work on earth and that God made him leader.

He decided that his country should invade this other country and blow the whole place up, then let it become a dangerous warzone of lawlessness and misery.

His country didnt even bother to release official estimates of how many muslims it killed, out of simple contempt.

How do any of us know that the nutcase we are arguing with isn't a homicidal nutcase that will track us down and kill us?


Because the odds are quite high that I would kill them when they come to my house. Scratch one homicidal nutcase.

ACLU people who won't let us put a nativity scene in our front yard etc. etc.

It's called freedom from religion, as freedom of means freedom from. It's in the US constitution. Freedom from religion means I shouldn't have to see Jesus or any other religious figures on the outside as I walk down the street. It wouldn't bother me, but it's a freedom we should have.
Let's put it this way: Dont you think it would bother christians if people were putting inverted crosses on their front lawns, or putting up stands on their roofs proclaiming the beauty of Satan. I can guarantee you that many would be deeply disturbed by that. For some reason, I doubt not being able to put a nativity scene in your front will kill you. If you truly want a nativity scene, why don't you clear out a room in your house and make it specifically a worship room, with a nativity and everything.
Personally, I believe being offended by public displays of religious imagery is rather over-the-top, but it's a right we're guaranteed and thus a right we deserve. The freedom of/from religion statement protects both the rights of the disturbed [insert faith] offended by the christian nativity, as well as the christian who finds inverted crosses on people's lawns equally disturbing.

Anyhow, as for this case, I can feel nothing but sadness in my heart. No matter how militant or irrational he was, none of us deserve to die for our beliefs.

Because the odds are quite high that I would kill them when they come to my house. Scratch one homicidal nutcase.
Likewise! :D

It's called freedom from religion, as freedom of means freedom from.Well, if you understood prepositions, or actually read the Constitution, this would be cleared up. It is freedom "of" as in freedom to do whatever religious act you damn well please as long as you don't hurt anyone, and ACLU nutcases can froth at the mouth all they want over the "oppression" of having to see a ntivity scene.

Well, if you understood prepositions, or actually read the Constitution, this would be cleared up. It is freedom "of" as in freedom to do whatever religious act you damn well please as long as you don't hurt anyone, and ACLU nutcases can froth at the mouth all they want over the "oppression" of having to see a ntivity scene.

You can put a fifty-foot high nativity scene in your front yard, and there's nothing the ACLU can do about it.

Try to use government funds to put it on government property (like in front of Town Hall), and they'll have a case.

As long as it's your money and your property that's supporting the nativity scene, it's your expression of religion.

It's called freedom from religion, as freedom of means freedom from. It's in the US constitution. Freedom from religion means I shouldn't have to see Jesus or any other religious figures on the outside as I walk down the street. It wouldn't bother me, but it's a freedom we should have.

Read your constitution again. It is freedom of religion. It gives the right to every person to practise their religion or not practise any religion. The public display of someone's beliefs in no way harms any one else.

Example: I love hummingbirds. I have some pieces of jewelry featuring hummingbirds. If someone has a dislike of hummingbirds, they do not have the right to force me not to wear my jewelry or to fly a banner from my front porch with a hummingbird on it. My exhibit of hummingbird appreciation in no way harms them or interferes with their preferences and gives them no right to suppress my feelings.

The display of a nativity on my lawn at Christmas time or the wearing of a crucifix, does not interfere with any one's rights. To not allow me to have a nativity scene or to wear a crucifix would be denying my rights to freedom OF religion.

Because the odds are quite high that I would kill them when they come to my house. Scratch one homicidal nutcase.

Yeah, same here. We don't own a gun, but my husband was a Marine for 12 years and he can put a hurtin on you like you wouldn't believe.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if a Muslim went into a christian chat room which had some redneck fundamentalist christians in it and started to provoke them tons and tons, and the morons went and killed him and his family. It would mean that all christians want to kill all muslims right? Global crusade! Argh!

Would be interesting to see what would happen if a Muslim went into a christian chat room which had some redneck fundamentalist christians in it and started to provoke them tons and tons, and the morons went and killed him and his family. It would mean that all christians want to kill all muslims right? Global crusade! Argh!
Except that would never happen. Fundamentalist Christians think Muslims are going to hell, not that they should help them on their way.

Etrusca, before you asked what I had against you.

And I replied that I was pretty sure you were a right wing nutjob, but I was willing to reconsider my opinion of you and look into it by scanning your posts.

Congratulations! You've been demoted.

You're now only a conservative sleazebag.

Happy landings!

The first openly gay Episcopalian bishop-elect is now under 24-hour FBI protection because of death threats against him. Reverend Gene Robinson told a conference of gay priests this weekend he has received threats from fundamentalist Christians and had grave concerns for his safety.

http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2003/10/27/2

Face it, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims.

The first openly gay Episcopalian bishop-elect is now under 24-hour FBI protection because of death threats against him. Reverend Gene Robinson told a conference of gay priests this weekend he has received threats from fundamentalist Christians and had grave concerns for his safety.

http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2003/10/27/2

Face it, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims.

Once again, the world is full of nuts, so carry a nutcracker.

The first openly gay Episcopalian bishop-elect is now under 24-hour FBI protection because of death threats against him. Reverend Gene Robinson told a conference of gay priests this weekend he has received threats from fundamentalist Christians and had grave concerns for his safety.

http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2003/10/27/2

Face it, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims.
Not just as dangerous. I will concede there are "Christians" who are dangerous. The point in all this is that they are castigated by Christianity as a whole, and they don't have grandiose designs of destroying the world. Even if they do, they don't have the power to carry those plans out, or even try. Muslim extremists are supported by the majority of Muslims, and they regularly kill large numbers of people. I would oppose Christian terrorism too, it is just that it isn't nearly as big of a problem.

Alright, I'll give you that. On the whole, the muslim fanatics are more supported as a whole, at least by muslims in the middle east.

But I still don't see the point of this thread, it was just another murder by a group of fanatic people.

More Americans kill each other then the Extremeists will ever kill.

I'm more worried about crime in my Nation.

I scanned throught the early posts, and I didn't see anyone mention this but I thought I'd point out that:

COPTICS ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!

Etrusca, before you asked what I had against you.

And I replied that I was pretty sure you were a right wing nutjob, but I was willing to reconsider my opinion of you and look into it by scanning your posts.

Congratulations! You've been demoted.

You're now only a conservative sleazebag.

Happy landings!
Thank you. Coming from you, I consider that a supreme compliment. Perhaps when you have regained a measure of your senses, you can tell me exactly what I have posted that has caused you to be additionally disturbed. :)

I scanned throught the early posts, and I didn't see anyone mention this but I thought I'd point out that:

COPTICS ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!
NO! Really? Wow! That must have been quite a shocking revelation to you. I'm deeply sorry that you are so adversely affected. :)

NO! Really? Wow! That must have been quite a shocking revelation to you. I'm deeply sorry that you are so adversely affected. :) Oh doh! I thought the coptic guy stabbed his family, oh well next time read more carefully.

Alright, I'll give you that. On the whole, the muslim fanatics are more supported as a whole, at least by muslims in the middle east.

But I still don't see the point of this thread, it was just another murder by a group of fanatic people.

More Americans kill each other then the Extremeists will ever kill.

I'm more worried about crime in my Nation.This was a crime, and it happened in our nation. Well, New Jersey, which some days I'd like to forget is part of our nation, but it was here. I am concerned about crime too, which this and all terrorism is. But the best way to stop it is going to the source. Attack extremist Islam to stop Islamic terrorism, just like we have police on the streets to stop the lunatic fringe from killing other people for their money. When that sort of thing does happen, punish the malefactors to the fullest extent of the law.

I am sick unto death of those who try to turn every incident like this into being somehow the victim's fault!

Here in America, we have the right of free speech. I know this because I have read the US Constitution, and because it's one of the primary reasons I went into the military. If this man wanted to go into a chat room and defend ANYTHING, that was his right as an American, and I personally think anyone who tries to justify this henious act by saying he asked for it by doing so is not only being stupid in the extreme, they're automatically suspect in my book.

I hope they find the perpetrators of this attrocity and hang them at high noon in the new center being built to replace the World Trade Center where "innocent" moslems were defending their right to kill whomever they choose! :mad: Well put. In the US, I have the right to proclaim any belief I have, and so does everyone else. So what if this guy pissed off some Muslims, he has the right to speak his mind. Would I be responsible for my death if I were murdered by some liberal that I offended in a online forum? Should I be responsible for someone else's actions against me because of my beliefs?

It's called freedom from religion, as freedom of means freedom from. It's in the US constitution. Freedom from religion means I shouldn't have to see Jesus or any other religious figures on the outside as I walk down the street. It wouldn't bother me, but it's a freedom we should have. Read the First Amendment again. You have no right to say what other people can or cannot put on the outside of their home or bussinesses, because this is blocking their right to express their religeon freely. You do have the right to ignore it. You do have the right to not go to church or not celebrate christmas. However, you have absolutly no right to tell people they can't express their religeon.

Fine, but you have to admit we have to be careful how we attack extremeists or otherwise we will just end up creating more of them.

Fine, but you have to admit we have to be careful how we attack extremeists or otherwise we will just end up creating more of them.
Very true.

So we managed to agree on some things. :D

My faith in debate is restored.

So we managed to agree on some things. :D

My faith in debate is restored.
As is mine. I am off now, but I bid you a very good day. :)

Thank you. Coming from you, I consider that a supreme compliment. Perhaps when you have regained a measure of your senses, you can tell me exactly what I have posted that has caused you to be additionally disturbed. :)

Because you are making a big deal out of something that doesn't need to be. It's political flamebaiting.

-----
"Well, uh, what affect do you think this will have on Muslims (huh, huh*, look, I'm spelling it in the "correct" way [19th century style][google has 7 billion more "muslims" than "moslems"]), do you think anything will happen to the first ammendment (huh, huh, because we all know the ACLU is liberal trash that only protects Nazis, the KKK, and conservatives in order to fool us), or do you think it will stay the same (because that is such a pressing question, and I'm so dreadfully worried about it, huh, huh).
"Yes indeed, it worries me sooo much I'm going to go post my fears on NationStates, because the people their are certainly intelligent and well behaved enough to read through my 'worries' and overlook my snappy title which doesn't seem to have any sort of negative connotation at all. I guess I'll call them AMERICAN and CHRISTIAN, and not mention that they're Coptic, as then people might pay less attention."

huh, huh* represents aggravating raspy conservative/elderly person laugh that sounds like a dying animal grasping for air in the throngs of death and mental breakdown in the face of moral hypocrisy.
-----

Coptics are hardly Christian, they're the last hurrah of Crusades, and these are just some more casualties.

Fine, but you have to admit we have to be careful how we attack extremeists or otherwise we will just end up creating more of them.

I'm for the Bush approach. Maybe if we wipe all 'brown' people off the face of the earth, the problem will go away.

(Now here's the part where you wonder whether ol' Saipea's serious or not)

Because you are making a big deal out of something that doesn't need to be. It's political flamebaiting.

-----
"Well, uh, what affect do you think this will have on Muslims (huh, huh*, look, I'm spelling it in the "correct" way [19th century style][google has 7 billion more "muslims" than "moslems"]), do you think anything will happen to the first ammendment (huh, huh, because we all know the ACLU is liberal trash that only protects Nazis, the KKK, and conservatives in order to fool us), or do you think it will stay the same (because that is such a pressing question, and I'm so dreadfully worried about it, huh, huh).
"Yes indeed, it worries me sooo much I'm going to go post my fears on NationStates, because the people their are certainly intelligent and well behaved enough to read through my 'worries' and overlook my snappy title which doesn't seem to have any sort of negative connotation at all. I guess I'll call them AMERICAN and CHRISTIAN, and not mention that they're Coptic, as then people might pay less attention."

huh, huh* represents aggravating raspy conservative/elderly person laugh that sounds like a dying animal grasping for air in the throngs of death and mental breakdown in the face of moral hypocrisy.
-----

Coptics are hardly Christian, they're the last hurrah of Crusades, and these are just another more casualties.
You, sir, have an intellect rivaled only by garden tools! My condolences.

You, sir, have an intellect rivaled only by garden tools! My condolences.

Yah, I am pretty sharp.

Do yousrself a favor and lock this trap down.

Where the heck did THIS come from? I was soliciting discussion, not antagonism! :headbang:

See? Load - of - crap.

"Moslems kill American Christian, his wife and two children."

Let's relate this to whether the only amendment that anyone ever cared about has a snowball's chance in hell of being changed. Let's thoughtfully debate this as in the hopes that nothing will happen, no... nothing at all.

the USofA dont have that of a good reputation with the muslim community as it is, shouldnt he have kept his mouth shut?

the USofA dont have that of a good reputation with the muslim community as it is, shouldnt he have kept his mouth shut?

No, he shouldn't have given out personal information like the dumbass he was.
Hehehe. Coptic. Teehee.

the USofA dont have that of a good reputation with the muslim community as it is, shouldnt he have kept his mouth shut?

No one in the US has to keep their mouth shut. Anyone here can be as offensive as they like. It's called the First Amendment.

Of course, it's not any good without the Second. If you plan on saying something offensive, someone will take offense. So, to prevent people from harming you after exercising your First Amendment rights, you have to exercise your Second Amendment rights concomitantly.

To sum up: Speak softly, and carry a loaded pistol.

Here here, someone with a brain! :cool: The Bush Adminstration uses religion to justify their actions and through manipulation have the Christians, and more importantly, the Christian fundamentalists on their side.

Just thought I'd take care of this. Point out to me where the Bush Admin. stated spreading the word of God was their reason for engaging Iraq. Please, do so.

No one in the US has to keep their mouth shut. Anyone here can be as offensive as they like. It's called the First Amendment.

Of course, it's not any good without the Second. If you plan on saying something offensive, someone will take offense. So, to prevent people from harming you after exercising your First Amendment rights, you have to exercise your Second Amendment rights concomitantly.

To sum up: Speak softly, and carry a loaded pistol.
I think your a gun nut...but anyway
the dumbass shouldnt of given out personal info to people he was offending

I think your a gun nut...but anyway
the dumbass shouldnt of given out personal info to people he was offending

So...you're saying it's alright to murder someone who offends you? Sometimes, I really wonder about the "Bleeding heart" part of the liberal stereotype; I think they only apply it to non-Christians and non-conservatives >.>

I think your a gun nut...but anyway
the dumbass shouldnt of given out personal info to people he was offending

Speaking, no matter who you are offending, is protected in the US.

Murdering people because you're offended at what they say is against the law in the US.

It doesn't make me a gun nut to say that I may employ any means at my disposal to protect my life and my speech from someone who will murder me for speaking. Waiting for the police, of course. But if they aren't going to arrive in time, my First Amendment rights trump the rights of the offended person.

Stories like this annoy me. I know that this is how things went:

Coptic: Hey, you filthy Muslim shitbags, Jesus will eat your hearts out if you don't come to my way now!
Muslims: Ummmm ... STFU troll.
Coptic: You all suck and will burn in Hell for all eternity because you worship a pedophile warmonger!
Muslims: Muhammed was not a pedophile and we don't worship him. We worship Allah only.
Coptic: "Allah" is a false god! Allah is a Pagan moon god! Jack Chick told me so!
Angry Muslim: Fuck you, Christian! I will kill you!
Muslims: Calm down, Angry, that's the reaction he wants.
Coptic: That's how ALL Muslims are! They want to kill me for not bowing to their God.
Muslims: Okie ... this guy is on ignore.
Angry Muslim: Now it's on, Coptic Bitch!
Coptic: I live at 200 Cherry Hill (or whatever) ... bring it on!

Now ... did the Coptic deserve to die? No. Does the woman who walks drunk and half naked through the bad part of town and flashes her boobs at crack dealers deserve to get raped? No. But it was bound to happen eventually.

Pick your battles, kids.

Speaking, no matter who you are offending, is protected in the US.

Hate speech is not protected in the US.

Hate speech is not protected in the US.

Really? I'm sure the police that guard Klan rallies will be glad to hear this.

And I'm sure you have the chat transcripts -.-

He could've been, and seems to have been more likely to from descriptions of those who knew him, engaging in intelligent, albeit inflamed debate.

Stories like this annoy me. I know that this is how things went:
Oh? And just what sort of "divine revelation" bestowed this intimate knowledge on you, oh Great One? :)

Really? I'm sure the police that guard Klan rallies will be glad to hear this.
The police are sworn to protect those having valid parade permits. That is not to say that those who "parade" can indulge themselves in hate speech.

Speaking, no matter who you are offending, is protected in the US.

Murdering people because you're offended at what they say is against the law in the US.

It doesn't make me a gun nut to say that I may employ any means at my disposal to protect my life and my speech from someone who will murder me for speaking. Waiting for the police, of course. But if they aren't going to arrive in time, my First Amendment rights trump the rights of the offended person.
Precisely. And the number of Americans coming to understand the true wisdom of the Founders including the right to bear arms in the Bill of Rights is on the increase. :)

Now ... did the Coptic deserve to die? No. Does the woman who walks drunk and half naked through the bad part of town and flashes her boobs at crack dealers deserve to get raped? No. But it was bound to happen eventually.

Pick your battles, kids.

Um... yes. And yes. Darwinism at its finest.

Here's an education on hate speech.

So far, it looks fairly well protected, compared to any place in Europe.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/internet/topic.aspx?topic=internet_hate_speech

Read down - it's about more than Internet hate speech. It's also about other hate speech cases.

Um... yes. And yes. Darwinism at its finest.

How compassionate of you >.>

I guess that means that if you manage to insult someone on this forum, they have the right to murder you?

Oh? And just what sort of "divine revelation" bestowed this intimate knowledge on you, oh Great One? :)

I did. I am God, and I was watching that chatroom, because all that porn I was looking at made me hungy. I don't exactly know what that means, because I am wasted and high, but I can assure you that all your souls taste mighty good.

And by the way, that was a perfect representation of what happened. I've seen it before, and we'll see it again.

And I saieth, "waa waa waaaa."

Really? I'm sure the police that guard Klan rallies will be glad to hear this.

Speaking of radical fundamentalists Christian groups ...

How compassionate of you >.>

I guess that means that if you manage to insult someone on this forum, they have the right to murder you?

If I'm dumb enought to divulge private information, then yes.

Bottom line: Don't go into a room full of Muslims/Christians/hackers looking for trouble.

He wasn't "looking for trouble", he was debating his faith. If it was a local murder, and the guy was well known, he may have not even given out his address-they probably either had a contact give it to them, or already knew him.

Precisely. And the number of Americans coming to understand the true wisdom of the Founders including the right to bear arms in the Bill of Rights is on the increase. :)

Arms, not automatic weapons, you idiot.

The "Founders" as you so pathetically deify them, were fairly against the bearing of arms. The only reason was to protect themselves against the government, and that excludes stupid conservative shit like Waco.

If I'm dumb enought o divulge private information, then yes.

Bottom line: Don't go into a room full of Muslims/Christians/hackers looking for trouble.

Since you don't know anyone's real identity, and could offend someone at any time, you might wonder how much private information you actually have to reveal.

If you're good enough at hacking, it's possible to find out who someone is, even if they take pains not to actually post that in the forums.

I have things the other way around at my end. I already live in a state of siege, and am ready for attackers.

Bottom line: Don't go into a room full of Muslims/Christians/hackers looking for trouble.

Article said it was a middle-eastern chat room, not a specifically Muslim chat room.

Oh? And just what sort of "divine revelation" bestowed this intimate knowledge on you, oh Great One? :)

Experience. I've been on a lot of forums over the years and this sort of thing has always gone on. People get on the internet and go completely insane - or, at least more so than they already were.

The anonymity of the internet is very attractive to nutjobs.

Again, I'm not saying the family deserved to die, but such is how things will go when you mix humans and humans when they're both angry about something.

The 15 year old daughter is something else all together. Religiously zealous teenagers will always be worse than their adult counterparts. It is because they have religious passion untempered by wisdom. I imagine the girl may have contributed quite a bit to the situation, possibly by running around high school, finding Muslims, and berating them to their face.

Further investigation will yeild some fun results. Keep an eye on the story. I do not and can not believe that this was just some quiet, harmless Christian family going about their day to day lives who were just slaughtered out of Muslim malice.

He wasn't "looking for trouble", he was debating his faith. If it was a local murder, and the guy was well known, he may have not even given out his address-they probably either had a contact give it to them, or already knew him.

Bottom line: Don't go into a room full of Muslims/Christians/hackers.

There. Happy? He's a dumbass. He died. Big woop. He would have died within the next century having contributed nothing to society and recieving none of the fame and attention we are giving him now, so let's move on and be glad we aren't stupid enough to do things like that, ok?

this story was on at like 1 am here and disappeared off the news. I don't like that very much either.
People say wierd shit in forums and chat rooms. People say wierd shit in return. It's not something to kill over. I haven't heard everything either because that story went off the air at a time when it's hard to go changeing stations, because like you aren't awake really.

In the US, speech is protected until it actually becomes a real threat.
You can be imprisoned, for instance, for making anti-Muslim statements that contain clear threats of violence.
But, you can't be imprisoned (or even arrested) for making anti-Muslim statements that do not contain threats of violence.

And, so far, any sort of hate speech on the Internet is not yet defined in case law in the US.

Or face the wrath of the M0ds!
Maybe it wasn't a religious crime, just a Mod who got carried away...

Bottom line: Don't go into a room full of Muslims/Christians/hackers.

There. Happy? He's a dumbass. He died. Big woop. He would have died within the next century having contributed nothing to society and recieving none of the fame and attention we are giving him now, so let's move on and be glad we aren't stupid enough to do things like that, ok?

And people call me apathetic >.>

So now certain chatrooms are restricted?

Yes, he may have not contributed anything-however, his death in specific isn't the point. It's the issue-that extremists would kill an entire family over comments in a chatroom. While there are extremists of many different faiths, this is becoming a rather common occurence for Muslim extremists, and is not nessicarily looked down upon by mainstream Muslims, especially those residing in the Middle East.

Maybe it wasn't a religious crime, just a Mod who got carried away...
lol

Maybe if they found "Death to Trolls" scrawled on the wall in blood.

Arms, not automatic weapons, you idiot.

The "Founders" as you so pathetically deify them, were fairly against the bearing of arms. The only reason was to protect themselves against the government, and that excludes stupid conservative shit like Waco.
Since reading your posts, my trust in evolution has been elevated. You constitute proof that evolution can indeed go in reverse.

An American who belonged to the Coptic Church of Egypt and posted his religious beliefs in Moslem chat rooms online, was stabbed to death yesterday, along with his wife and two daughters. Police in New Jersey are looking for several Moslem suspects.

My personal take on this is that he was killed for exercising his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What effects, if any, do you think this will have on the exercise of US Constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and religion?
Ok, whatever.

Source?

Ok, whatever.

Source?
That's an exceptionally cold response to the murder of an entire family.

As to source ... read virtually any newspaper, online or off, or turn on your television to any news broadcast.

While there are extremists of many different faiths, this is becoming a rather common occurence for Muslim extremists

Actually, it isn't. It's just being heard about more. The mainstream newsmedia will latch on hard to a story if it involves a Muslim perp these days. If this family were murdered by, say, crackheads lookin' for money, they would not have made the news.

Take two stories of equal value and the Muslim will get the top story no matter what. People have forgotten the good Christian boys who slaughtered Matthew Shepard. People have forgotten the good Christian parents who allowed their children so much leeway that Columbine was forever changed. People have forgotten the good Christian Unabomber and the good Christian Tim McVeigh. People have forgotten the good Christian boys who dragged James Byrd to his death. People have forgotten the good Christian man who shot up a Jewish daycare in California. People have forgotten the good Christian pedophile priests. People have forgotten about all those good Christians like Kenneth Lay who exploited the good faith of their workers by stealing their pensions right out from under them.

In Indonesia and Sri Lanka right now, Christian groups are snatching up orphaned children so that they can be converted to Christianity. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay quotes scripture on the podium that shows the tsunami was a punishment from God upon non-Christian nations. Christian abuse of the Faith Based Initiative runs rampant.

Nobody cares about those stories, though. The news barely reports them. Not when they have the opportunity to show yet another Muslim atrocity.

Such is the flavor of the week.

Actually, it isn't. It's just being heard about more. The mainstream newsmedia will latch on hard to a story if it involves a Muslim perp these days. If this family were murdered by, say, crackheads lookin' for money, they would not have made the news.

Take two stories of equal value and the Muslim will get the top story no matter what. People have forgotten the good Christian boys who slaughtered Matthew Shepard. People have forgotten the good Christian parents who allowed their children so much leeway that Columbine was forever changed. People have forgotten the good Christian Unabomber and the good Christian Tim McVeigh. People have forgotten the good Christian boys who dragged James Byrd to his death. People have forgotten the good Christian man who shot up a Jewish daycare in California. People have forgotten the good Christian pedophile priests. People have forgotten about all those good Christians like Kenneth Lay who exploited the good faith of their workers by stealing their pensions right out from under them.

In Indonesia and Sri Lanka right now, Christian groups are snatching up orphaned children so that they can be converted to Christianity. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay quotes scripture on the podium that shows the tsunami was a punishment from God upon non-Christian nations. Christian abuse of the Faith Based Initiative runs rampant.

Nobody cares about those stories, though. The news barely reports them. Not when they have the opportunity to show yet another Muslim atrocity.

Such is the flavor of the week.
The reason Muslims are mentioned here because unlike the cases you mentioned, the dispute was over religion. I doubt Ken Lay robbed in the name of jesus. He just wanted to get rich.

Take two stories of equal value and the Muslim will get the top story no matter what. People have forgotten the good Christian boys who slaughtered Matthew Shepard. People have forgotten the good Christian parents who allowed their children so much leeway that Columbine was forever changed. People have forgotten the good Christian Unabomber and the good Christian Tim McVeigh. People have forgotten the good Christian boys who dragged James Byrd to his death. People have forgotten the good Christian man who shot up a Jewish daycare in California. People have forgotten the good Christian pedophile priests. People have forgotten about all those good Christians like Kenneth Lay who exploited the good faith of their workers by stealing their pensions right out from under them.



People have forgotten the good muslim boys who hijacked that ocean liner and killed that dude in a wheelchair, and pushed him overboard. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who helped the Nazi's in WWII. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who used a knife to cut the head off of a woman who was trying to help Iraqis. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who strapped explosives to themselves and blew up Israeli children. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who took over a school in Russia, and slaughtered many of the children inside. Sometimes using a knife when they ran out of ammo. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who butchered non muslim Armenians in WWI. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who just kidnapped a Catholic Archbishop. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who massacred those people in Jammu, India.
People have forgotten the good muslim boys who continue to kill children in the name of their fradulent "allah".

When will the people of your "religion" stand up to the growing muslim scourge Keruvalia, and say no more? Will you come out and condemn your fellow muslims who commit acts of cowardice? Will your leaders? :mad:

Doubtful. Whether you want to admit it, crimes committed in the name of "allah" are greatly on the increase.

When will the people of your "religion" stand up to the growing muslim scourge Keruvalia, and say no more? Will you come out and condemn your fellow muslims who commit acts of cowardice? Will your leaders? :mad:


We do it all the time. You just don't listen. It's never good enough for you. What would you have us do?

Seriously ... what could I say that would be good enough for you?

People have forgotten the good muslim boys who hijacked that ocean liner and killed that dude in a wheelchair, and pushed him overboard. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who helped the Nazi's in WWII. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who used a knife to cut the head off of a woman who was trying to help Iraqis. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who strapped explosives to themselves and blew up Israeli children. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who took over a school in Russia, and slaughtered many of the children inside. Sometimes using a knife when they ran out of ammo. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who butchered non muslim Armenians in WWI. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who just kidnapped a Catholic Archbishop. People have forgotten the good muslim boys who massacred those people in Jammu, India.
People have forgotten the good muslim boys who continue to kill children in the name of their fradulent "allah".

Nobody has forgotten any of that because the Media won't let them. All of the Christian atrocities in the last decade have been placed in storage.

Also, not really a good way to ensure future relations by saying Allah is fraudulant.

Nobody cares about those stories, though. The news barely reports them. Not when they have the opportunity to show yet another Muslim atrocity.

Such is the flavor of the week.
I agree.
All religions have their extremists, but it seems to be in vogue now to demonize Muslims. Hmm, I wonder who it'll be next?

Arabic to English translations often cause inconsistencies between the spelling of words. Like Muslim to Moselm. Both are correct though.

And if someone pointed this out already, I didn't feel like reading more pages of moronic babbling to see if someone already said this.

Here here, someone with a brain! :cool: The Bush Adminstration uses religion to justify their actions and through manipulation have the Christians, and more importantly, the Christian fundamentalists on their side.

I did, but I pointed out that saying "Moslem" is like calling Asians "Orientals", it's 19th century lingo.

Also, not really a good way to ensure future relations by saying Allah is fraudulant.

The truth hurts. Who cares about relations with some nation?

Nobody has forgotten any of that because the Media won't let them. All of the Christian atrocities in the last decade have been placed in storage.

Also, not really a good way to ensure future relations by saying Allah is fraudulant.

No side so far has produced someone with the pacifist capital of Gandhi (well, perhaps Dr. King).

So neither side has been too commendable about killing and then apologizing for it.

The logical conclusion of all of this lies in the stomach that Western civilizations have for killing. If they can stomach doing what the Germans were capable of doing in WW II, then Islam will vanish from the face of the earth within the century. If not, then all other forms of belief will be eliminated before the end of the century.

It is a battle of ideas.

I agree.
All religions have their extremists, but it seems to be in vogue now to demonize Muslims. Hmm, I wonder who it'll be next?

Demonize for a reason, as they are committing the atrocities as of late.

Demonize for a reason, as they are committing the atrocities as of late.
Is this the fault of all Muslims?

Oh, and there are plenty of other atrocities going on too.

When will the people of your "religion" stand up to the growing muslim scourge Keruvalia, and say no more? Will you come out and condemn your fellow muslims who commit acts of cowardice? Will your leaders? :mad:

Doubtful. Whether you want to admit it, crimes committed in the name of "allah" are greatly on the increase.

Eh. Chill. It's just like Catholics in the Middle Ages. It's not the quality, it's the quantity. You have people giving birth to tons and tons of children and it's no wonder that it seems like a large amount of Muslims are "eeeevil" or "baaaad" and want to "killlll youuuu", but really it's just them popping too many kids and while the percent of religious wackos stays constant, the number increases.
Unfortunately, as the number of children increases, it has an adverse affect on intelligence and reasonableness of said individuals, which would also contribute to Muslim fanaticism being on the rise.
Not to mention things taht might have caused such reactions. No, gods forbid that we might actually look into our part of the problem.

Bottom line, have no more than 2 children, you sick freaks (meaning everyone, not just Muslims and Catholics). It shows tremendous disrespect to your fellow mankind, the environment, and the stability of this fragile and now completely connected world.

The truth hurts. Who cares about relations with some nation?
Truth?
We'd all love to see you back it up then, I'm sure.

So neither side has been too commendable about killing and then apologizing for it.


(Assuming you're Christian, which you may not be, but just to clarify) Do you feel the need to apologize for Tim McVeigh? Of course not and nobody would expect you to.

However, since I am Muslim, I am required to apologize for Osama bin Laden. My son, should he decide to be Muslim, was not even born yet when the WTC was attacked and, yet, he will be told he needs to "do more" about this bin Laden thing.

It makes no sense.

However, that aside, I am aware that Johnny Wadd is a troll, so him I can simply ignore. You'll notice, though, that I'm not demanding other users rebuke Wadd and apologize for his actions. ;)

(Assuming you're Christian, which you may not be, but just to clarify) Do you feel the need to apologize for Tim McVeigh? Of course not and nobody would expect you to.

However, since I am Muslim, I am required to apologize for Osama bin Laden. My son, should he decide to be Muslim, was not even born yet when the WTC was attacked and, yet, he will be told he needs to "do more" about this bin Laden thing.

It makes no sense.

However, that aside, I am aware that Johnny Wadd is a troll, so him I can simply ignore. You'll notice, though, that I'm not demanding other users rebuke Wadd and apologize for his actions. ;)

Turn to the darkside, your mythology is the new kid on the block as Zoroastrianism 4.0. Become an athiest with no allegiance, cold, alone, destitute, and on Prozac, but at least acting smarter and getting less crap.

Is this the fault of all Muslims?

Oh, and there are plenty of other atrocities going on too.

Name them!

The reason Muslims are mentioned here because unlike the cases you mentioned, the dispute was over religion. I doubt Ken Lay robbed in the name of jesus. He just wanted to get rich.

Actually, every example besides that was because Christians are as much of braindamaged religion freaks as Muslims, they're just smart enough not to go off themselves as well like some whiny Columbine shooter (although that's not sucha bad thing).

Yes, I'm a Christian, but I have no pretense to some higher morality.

Once we're at the point where we're killing people, morality takes a back seat. Then it's only a matter of who is more willing to do the hard thing.

If you're on the side who is willing to do the worst, and do it first, you're far more likely to win.

And before anyone starts with the WW II analogy, we'll just remind the readers who did day and night bombing of civilian areas, occasionally with incendiaries, with an eye to incinerating mass numbers of civilians.

It wasn't the Germans.

No side so far has produced someone with the pacifist capital of Gandhi (well, perhaps Dr. King).


Don't be so sure. Read the words of El-Hajj Malik el-Shabazz (Malcolm X).

True Islam taught me that it takes all of the religious, political, economic, psychological, and racial ingredients, or characteristics, to make the Human Family and the Human Society complete.

Since I learned the truth in Mecca, my dearest friends have come to include all kinds -- some Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics, and even atheists! I have friends who are called capitalists, Socialists, and Communists! Some of my friends are moderates, conservatives, extremists -- some are even Uncle Toms! My friends today are black, brown, red, yellow, and white!


I know that societies often have killed the people who have helped to change those societies. And if I can die having brought any light, having exposed any meaningful truth that will help to destroy the racist cancer that is malignant in the body of America -- then, all of the credit is due to Allah. Only the mistakes have been mine.

He's a Muslim, so we'll never have a national holiday for him, but one cannot deny his unifying power, his messages of peace and brotherhood (upon realization of the grave mistake he was making), and his devotion to the cause of civil liberties.

(Assuming you're Christian, which you may not be, but just to clarify) Do you feel the need to apologize for Tim McVeigh? Of course not and nobody would expect you to.

However, since I am Muslim, I am required to apologize for Osama bin Laden. My son, should he decide to be Muslim, was not even born yet when the WTC was attacked and, yet, he will be told he needs to "do more" about this bin Laden thing.

It makes no sense.

However, that aside, I am aware that Johnny Wadd is a troll, so him I can simply ignore. You'll notice, though, that I'm not demanding other users rebuke Wadd and apologize for his actions. ;)

Last time I checked these "muslim" murderers kill in the name of allah. I didn't read where McVeigh killed in the name of Jesus.

Name them!

Hmm. the continent of Africa comes to mind, as does the Middle East, though arguably, yes, those both are due to Muslims.

So you win, you are right, you can leave now, self assured and cocky.

The question is, do any of us really care who does it?

He's a Muslim, so we'll never have a national holiday for him, but one cannot deny his unifying power, his messages of peace and brotherhood (upon realization of the grave mistake he was making), and his devotion to the cause of civil liberties.

Oh, we have National Brotherhood Week. During the first year it was celebrated, Malcolm was killed on the first day of that week. Shows you how effective that message was amongst his own followers.

Last time I checked these "muslim" murderers kill in the name of allah. I didn't read where McVeigh killed in the name of Jesus.

Jesus, Allah, angst, white trash, same thing.

An agenda is antithetical to a reasonable arguement. You have already lost, no matter how right you may be.

Name them!
Well, there does happen to be that whole Israel vs. Palestine thing...
Some of that house-bulldozing by the Israelis isn't all to nice.
And last time I checked, Israel wasn't Muslim.

Once you cross that line, and actually kill someone, does it really matter why?

Oh, we have National Brotherhood Week. During the first year it was celebrated, Malcolm was killed on the first day of that week. Shows you how effective that message was amongst his own followers.

Malcolm X was a deliciously appealing nut job.
His failure and greatness stem from his passion.

Hmm. the continent of Africa comes to mind, as does the Middle East, though arguably, yes, those both are due to Muslims.

So you win, you are right, you can leave now, self assured and cocky.

The question is, do any of us really care who does it?


Obviously I care about it or I wouldn't have mentioned it. Now would I?

So are we Americans' the great satan, hmm all signs point to no! I'll call Christians monsters too as soon as they start cutting peoples' heads off and broadcast it, blow up muslim pizza joints, kill filmmakers who portray Christians in a bad light, hijack airliners, use innocent civilians as human shields, use machetes to massacre non Christians.

But from where I'm sitting, the muslims are the ones doing those things these days.

Oh, we have National Brotherhood Week. During the first year it was celebrated, Malcolm was killed on the first day of that week. Shows you how effective that message was amongst his own followers.

He wasn't killed by a Muslim, though. He was killed by the Nation of Islam (some believe Farrakhan himself pulled the trigger) and the Nation of Islam is not Muslim.

Jesus, Allah, angst, white trash, same thing.

An agenda is antithetical to a reasonable arguement. You have already lost, no matter how right you may be.


I lost even though I won?? Ok. Sounds a bit like being a faulknerian idiot man-child.

Dammit Etrusca, I told you to lock this trap.

But noooo, you had some magical agenda about the 1st amendment, or some crap like that.

Conservative sleazebag.

Obviously I care about it or I wouldn't have mentioned it. Now would I?

So are we Americans' the great satan, hmm all signs point to no! I'll call Christians monsters too as soon as they start cutting peoples' heads off and broadcast it, blow up muslim pizza joints, kill filmmakers who portray Christians in a bad light, hijack airliners, use innocent civilians as human shields, use machetes to massacre non Christians.

But from where I'm sitting, the muslims are the ones doing those things these days.
Again, what does this have to do with all Muslims?

Nothing!

Well, there does happen to be that whole Israel vs. Palestine thing...
Some of that house-bulldozing by the Israelis isn't all to nice.
And last time I checked, Israel wasn't Muslim.


Hmm, maybe they knock out those houses because, let me think, that's where those cowards hide and snipe from? Just remember the palestinians are the ones who start the violence, but then they piss and cry when Israel returns their violence ten fold!

I lost even though I won?? Ok. Sounds a bit like being a faulknerian idiot man-child.

Being right doesn't make you right.

And judging from your posts, you certainly aren't right.

A good man is a protector of truth, and strives for rectification and resolution.
You are neither of those, solely a scared little Christian that must lash out on the new religious fanatic on the block.

Come to grips with the Dark Ages so soon?

Hmm, maybe they knock out those houses because, let me think, that's where those cowards hide and snipe from?
Okay, so people snipe from houses.
So obviously that gives them the right to bulldoze any house they see fit because there might be snipers!
Who cares if they are owned by civilians?

Hmm, maybe they knock out those houses because, let me think, that's where those cowards hide and snipe from? Just remember the palestinians are the ones who start the violence, but then they piss and cry when Israel returns their violence ten fold!

Those aren't Muslims.

Obviously I care about it or I wouldn't have mentioned it. Now would I?

So are we Americans' the great satan, hmm all signs point to no! I'll call Christians monsters too as soon as they start cutting peoples' heads off and broadcast it, blow up muslim pizza joints, kill filmmakers who portray Christians in a bad light, hijack airliners, use innocent civilians as human shields, use machetes to massacre non Christians.

But from where I'm sitting, the muslims are the ones doing those things these days.


Christians kill people too. Ever hear about the abortion clinic bombings?
Non-Christians kill people too. Ever hear about serial killers? Of course, they might have been Christians as well.

Being right doesn't make you right.

And judging from your posts, you certainly aren't right.

A good man is a protector of truth, and strives for rectification and resolution.
You are neither of those, solely a scared little Christian that must lash out on the new religious fanatic on the block.

Come to grips with the Dark Ages so soon?

Being right doesn't make me right????

A scared little Christian? No I really have no faith at all, I just don't like those dirty middle east people murdering innocent people! The only faith I have is in my gun collection and gold bullion that I buried out in my yard.

Christians kill people too. Ever hear about the abortion clinic bombings?
Non-Christians kill people too. Ever hear about serial killers? Of course, they might have been Christians as well.


How many bombings are going on. Shoot the way you tell it, that must be going on more then a few times. Yes they may have been Christians, but are they doing serial killer jobs in the name of Jesus?

Okay, so people snipe from houses.
So obviously that gives them the right to bulldoze any house they see fit because there might be snipers!
Who cares if they are owned by civilians?

It's the right thing to do in the face of unending aggression. Protect your own, no matter what the cost, that's what both sides are trying to do.

The more advanced people with irrigation, nukes, and a formidable militia seem to have beaten the rag tag group of countries surrounding them that lack civil rights, intellect, and economy.

C'est la historia.

Those aren't Muslims.

They do it in the name of allah. Why don't the peaceful people rise up and control these wacko's?

Being right doesn't make me right????

A scared little Christian? No I really have no faith at all, I just don't like those dirty middle east people murdering innocent people! The only faith I have is in my gun collection and gold bullion that I buried out in my yard.

You have an agenda. It bleeds through all of your posts. You aren't after truth, logic, or reason, you are after proof to feed your hatred of Muslims and Arabs, and while you're arguements are solid, your motives aren't, and your end result will be your unhappiness.

How many bombings are going on. Shoot the way you tell it, that must be going on more then a few times. Yes they may have been Christians, but are they doing serial killer jobs in the name of Jesus?

DAMN! I didn't know someone could so blatantly miss the point!! Let me translate it into something simpler for you :

People kill people in the name of alot of stupid shit. Get over it.

dirty middle east people

Dirty middle east people?

You do realize that Jesus and all of his disciples and all of his followers for the first 300 years were middle eastern, don't you? Christianity is a middle eastern religion. I absolutely guarantee you that more people have been killed in the name of Jesus than in the name of Allah and in far worse ways.

Take your pick ... a quick beheading or being fried alive in oil.

As for the TV broadcasts, do you have definitive proof that the men doing the beheadings are, in fact, Muslim? From what I can see, the video is a bit blurry and the men are very covered. They could be white folks for all I know.

As a matter of fact, one time stamped beheading video shows it was made while the men in question, were they Muslim, would have been at Salatu-l-Asr.

In short, take your pre-conceived notions and cornhole them. You're clearly just a troll begging for attention and you will get no more from me.

Why don't you go start another thread and lie some more about how you were held prisoner in Vietnam, eh?

They do it in the name of allah. Why don't the peaceful people rise up and control these wacko's?
Because then they wouldn't be peaceful if they tried to control them.

The slolution to the whole religous debate is simple, nuclear bomb every square inch of the world, we all die, whoever ends up in heaven was right, the rest of us go to hell and get it over with, or nothing happens at all and the atheasts were right. Since this is really the only way to find out who is right, i say its not worth finding out eirly, stop prostiltizing and sto ptrying to "save" people and we wont have problems like this. we should respect out diffrances not insult them.

They do it in the name of allah. Why don't the peaceful people rise up and control these wacko's?

The entire US Army can't find them and you expect me to?

Dumbass.

I refuse to accept, that being upset about someone being killed by Muslim fanatics (or pseudo-Muslim fanatics, as the case may be) necessarily reveals a ruthless hatred for Muslims in general.

...You aren't after truth, logic, or reason, you are after proof to feed your hatred of Muslims and Arabs...

Too often, this sort of statement is the retort for those who refuse to accept the very real problems within contemporary Islam, especially in regards the rise of a global society. Frankly I consider such comments disingenious and evasive.

Because then they wouldn't be peaceful if they tried to control them.

They could distance themselves as far as possible, and you know help the authorities crack down on them. Also not harboring them in their mosques as well.

They do it in the name of allah. Why don't the peaceful people rise up and control these wacko's?

They got their own problems.

Why don't I come over and beat you for being ignorant? Why don't I go and smack the Bible belt silly? Why don't I teach people in Alabama why creationism isn't a theory? Why don't I help people in Idaho understand the importance of taking care of the environment? Why don't I rise up against the wall of ignorance washing over my own country before I bother with a bunch of idiots destroying theirs?

If they're killing themselves quicker, why should I care? At least I'll have a better chance here.

So. Why don't Muslims do something? They do. They do what they can do best. Move somewhere else. Try and protect their families. Try and live for the sake of living without impeding on anyone else.

It's not their responsibility to take care of things. I'm not holding you responsible for the actions of your ancestors or relatives.

The entire US Army can't find them and you expect me to?

Dumbass.


The entire US Army is killing them at a ratio of well more then 10 to 1! Great logic, Chief!

Go enjoy a BLT and some firewater! Dumbass!

This happened in Jersey? What exit??

I absolutely guarantee you that more people have been killed in the name of Jesus than in the name of Allah and in far worse ways.

I seriously doubt that. Islamic conquest has invariably been followed by some sort of mass slaughter of the "infidels". That's simply not the case with Christianity, save in regards the Iberian invasions of the Americas.

The biggest killers, of course, have been Marxists. More people were murdered by Marxists in the 20th century, during peacetime, than were killed in all the wars of the world.

You have an agenda. It bleeds through all of your posts. You aren't after truth, logic, or reason, you are after proof to feed your hatred of Muslims and Arabs, and while you're arguements are solid, your motives aren't, and your end result will be your unhappiness.

Unhappiness, nah. You see I seriously dislike a lot of folks, pretty much everyone except for myself and family. I'm only coming down on those people now since everyone wants to believe they are peaceful.

BTW how do you know my motives? Are you Miss Cleo?

DAMN! I didn't know someone could so blatantly miss the point!! Let me translate it into something simpler for you :

People kill people in the name of alot of stupid shit. Get over it.

My whole point is that people are killing in the name of "allah" or even baby Jesus. I do not care if they listen to their inner voices or poodles. You missed the point. This is entirely about religion!

My whole point is that people are killing in the name of "allah" or even baby Jesus. I do not care if they listen to their inner voices or poodles. You missed the point. This is entirely about religion!

No, it's not. Religion is just one of the millions of stupid things people use to talk themselves into killing someone. This is not entirely about religion. This is not about religion at all. It is about human stupidity.

Dirty middle east people?

You do realize that Jesus and all of his disciples and all of his followers for the first 300 years were middle eastern, don't you? Christianity is a middle eastern religion. I absolutely guarantee you that more people have been killed in the name of Jesus than in the name of Allah and in far worse ways.

Take your pick ... a quick beheading or being fried alive in oil.



Yes they are dirty. BTW Jesus and the rest of those people probably gave off a pretty decent stench. What is your point?

BTW those Christian attrocities were committed many years ago. Were you alive then.

Recently more have been killed in the name of allah. I It isn't a quick beheading, it is kind of slow. I'd rather be fried. I absolutely guarantee you that more people have been killed in the name of allah lately then in the name of Jesus!

Go lie about how you are some tough former Ranger, and ride to your teepee on the back of a camel. Kemosabe!

The entire US Army is killing them at a ratio of well more then 10 to 1! Great logic, Chief!


Yet, you're still complaining, so it's clearly not enough for you.

Yet, you're still complaining, so it's clearly not enough for you.

Yes, we should do what we did to your ancestors. You know, small pox contaminated blankets and cheap whiskey. So yes our actions are not nearly enough.

BTW those Christian attrocities were committed many years ago. Were you alive then.


My son wasn't alive yet when the WTC was attacked, yet you blame him.

You want genocide, that is obvious. The Vietcong should have eaten you.

Go lie about how you are some tough former Ranger, and ride to your teepee on the back of a camel. Kemosabe!

ooooh ... an attack on my military service, my blood, and my religion in one fell swoop! Creative.

You do realize that the fact that I have not threatened you nor even gotten angry at you is proof that your stereotype of Muslims is false, don't you?

In your mind, I should be heading (be heading ... get it? ba dum chik) to your house with a video camera and a machette. Your whole world, your whole argument, stems on that. Your house of cards has crumbled. Now go sit at the kiddie table with the rest of your ilk.

ooooh ... an attack on my military service, my blood, and my religion in one fell swoop! Creative.

You do realize that the fact that I have not threatened you nor even gotten angry at you is proof that your stereotype of Muslims is false, don't you?

In your mind, I should be heading to your house with a video camera and a machette. Your whole world, your whole argument, stems on that. Your house of cards has crumbled. Now go sit at the kiddie table with the rest of your ilk.


My intention wasn't to rile you up, just to insult you for calling me a dumbass. You lie about being in the service!

My intention wasn't to rile you up, just to insult you for calling me a dumbass. You lie about being in the service!

I call you, you personally, a dumbass and your response is to attack every one of my people? Nice.

No, I don't lie about being in the service. Do you have some proof of what you claim?

My son wasn't alive yet when the WTC was attacked, yet you blame him.

You want genocide, that is obvious. The Vietcong should have eaten you.


They tried but failed, don't get me started on Vietnamese!

I call you, you personally, a dumbass and your response is to attack every one of my people? Nice.

No, I don't lie about being in the service. Do you have some proof of what you claim?

Yes, you see I'm a bigot in the technical sense.

Yes I have proof, do you?

Don't get me wrong, I love the cheap tobacco and booze on the reservations. I also like playing at the Casinos. :)

Yes I have proof, do you?

Of course I have proof! Plenty of it. What're you going to do, ask me for my social security number so you can check for yourself?

Forget it, pal.

Don't get me wrong, I love the cheap tobacco and booze on the reservations. I also like playing at the Casinos. :)

I've never been to a reservation.

Of course I have proof! Plenty of it. What're you going to do, ask me for my social security number so you can check for yourself?

Forget it, pal.


Now, now, how about coming over for a cookout? We have a pig we are going to roast. We can have our own little Thanksgiving!! :)

Yes the SS would help, but so would discharge papers.

I've never been to a reservation.


You should, as you can get cheap stuff there.

Yes the SS would help, but so would discharge papers.

So you don't have proof, you're just going to see if I'll scan my proof.

You show me yours and I'll show you mine.

I think the argument is interesting but I think it does not represent the purpose of this thread.

I think the argument is interesting but I think it does not represent the purpose of this thread.

After about post #10, they seldom do.

After about post #10, they seldom do.
Yeah, I started really noticing that just yesterday...
Meaning I must be blind or something.

I think the argument is interesting but I think it does not represent the purpose of this thread.

Yeah .... but it's fun.

i say we kill them all because they are starting to overpopulate countries and they have already committed terrorist attacks all over the world.

its the truth, u must face it! :sniper:

After about post #10, they seldom do.


Nah, I have found some good ones but political ones are generally pretty viscious

Vladmirium, your what, like 12?

Run along little boy, the adults are talking.

Maybe you should try reading once and awhile.

:rolleyes:

Yeah .... but it's fun.

True but not for everybody.

Vladmirium, your what, like 12?

Run along little boy, the adults are talking.

Maybe you should try reading once and awhile.

:rolleyes:

I would prefer him staying and maybe getting enlightened or educated I think that would be more productive :p

The fact that this is a NY Post story makes me dislike it more. The NY Post is the most devisive POS rag in NY. The fact that they didn't post the conversation from the chat logs, which any good Journalist would get before writing the story, shows they just want to incite.

When you're dealing with True Believers, of anything, you shouldn't attack their beliefs unless you're ready to fight.

Free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want with no consequences.

Keruvalia, do you really want me to show you mine? I don't want you to get an inferiority complex! ;)

PS-It wouldn't fit in the scanner.

Keruvalia, do you really want me to show you mine? I don't want you to get an inferiority complex! ;)

PS-It wouldn't fit in the scanner.

ROFL!

Walked right into that one, didn't I ...

The fact that this is a NY Post story makes me dislike it more. The NY Post is the most devisive POS rag in NY. The fact that they didn't post the conversation from the chat logs, which any good Journalist would get before writing the story, shows they just want to incite.

When you're dealing with True Believers, of anything, you shouldn't attack their beliefs unless you're ready to fight.

Free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want with no consequences.

I agree that the main isssue in this case is the chat room that he was in because that is where the incitement took place and hope that the good journalists and policemen and women do they right thing in figuring out this murder. I hope only good things result from the investigation.

Free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want with no consequences.
Perhaps not, but, at least in the US, free speech doesn't mean you are fair game for killers either.

I think I agree too
I *know* I do.

Did you hear that story about how christians invaded a muslim country and smashed it up and turned it into a warzone and killed tens of thousands of muslims?

Also, they made it a matter of policy to torture muslims.
We *said* we were sorry.

......... Well you're little secret is out with this Muslim, but fyi, I would be more likely to burn the house down then run in the front door. How fuckin stupid would you be to do that, plus being the antagonist
You can legally stop arson from being committed on your own property with lethal force. ;)

Yayyy for Virginia! Ditto for North Carolina ... plus we have concealed carry! Mwahahahaha! :D
So does Virginia ;)

Perhaps not, but, at least in the US, free speech doesn't mean you are fair game for killers either.

As I've said, He was attacking a True Believers beliefs. When you do that you can expect nothing but a physical responce. Having said that, I do hope they catch those responsible and they are brought to justice. I also hope this isn't a cause for more hatred and division, although that may be impossible.

Hmmm....before you comment you should know what you are talking about. Let's look at what you said;

This is the first I've heard of this, so I could be wrong, but from your post it sounds like it might have been partially the guy's fault.

Why was he posting his Christian religious beliefs in a Moslem chat room? Sure they shouldn't have KILLED him, but that is a really rude thing to do.

As said by others. It is spelled Muslim

How is it the victims fault? Freedom of speech and expression goes everywhere. It was the job of the site to enforce Qu'ran talk only. The fact they didn't boot him suggests it was ok.


How would you feel if you were talking in a Christian chatroom, and somebody from a different religion came into it, and told you your beliefs were wrong, and started spouting off about his religion? You'd be pretty mad, to say the least.

Nope. It is fine for people to discuss their faiths. People have to grow up and accept the fact that people are going to worship different. Sure they are cases in any religion but many people freely exchange viewpoints all the time. I routinely discuss Relgion with Muslims at work. It is a good dialoge as I learn things about their viewpoints and they correct misconceptions. They also learn things about Catholism and I correct misconceptions.
However, these are moderates....


Also, tensions are already high with Christians and Moslems... we've been attacking them for no reason for years, and missionaries have been trying to convert them for centuries.

The two religions have been at odds for a long time. Islamic areas try to enforce Islamic law on others. Look at Sudan. The Islamic north tried to tell the Christian south that they have to follow Islamic law. Result: 20 years of war.


Don't they have any rights? As in, the right to worship in any way they choose? The right to not be afraid to walk down the street because an American might shoot them?

Yes and they have those rights. However, killing in the name of their Religion is not a right.


The right not to be grouped under the same umbrella by racist (religionist?) people? There are good Moslems and bad Moslems, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians. Small groups of Moslems who would kill if somebody deeply offended their religion, and Christians who would kill if somebody did the same to theirs.

And both should be punished severly!


We shouldn't hate an entire race or religion for something that was probably just the act of a small group of people. If your neighbor killed somebody, does that make all the people on your street killers?

The racism in the US has been allowed to go on for far too long. I don't think that there has been a country this racist since WWII.

Well you need to read a bit of history before you make that claim.

Racism and prejudice is as old as man. For example, in the US the Poles, Italians, Irish, Hispanics, Chinese, the Natives have all been targets of Racsim before the WWII.

The UK; where the Welsh, Irish, and Scots all treated nice?

The former USSR.
China and Tibet
Japan and Korea and China.....


Are you guys really going to allow that to happen to yourselves? Isn't sitting there hating all Moslems the same thing as sitting there and hating all Jews? Think about how the media is skewing everything. People kill eachother every day for stupid reasons. Why did American papers choose to cover this particular story? It happened in Egypt for goodness' sake. You're being manipulated. Help to stop it.

We could very well have those type of the "faithful" here.

Look at Denmark and Theo Van Gogh.

People need to know when they hear about wacknuts like that. They also need to know these wacknuts will track them and kill them if they get a chance.

Hiding such events is as bad as suggesting all Muslims will do this.....

A minute ago, someone died. Nobody cared.

In a few seconds, someone will die. Nobody will care.





There's a fire
on Junk Island where
they send their garbage
is anybody listening?

After work we'll watch
the seagulls diving in
and out of the lashing towers of flame.

It twinkles like a pile
of rotting jewels left
to bake in the sun.
Is anybody listening?

We're just like those condom wrappers: used up torn up
thrown away.
And we're just like yesterday's headlines:
drifting, floating, towards the blaze.

If we rob the
liquor store we could
be in Tijuana by the crack of dawn.
If we rob the
mayor's mansion
we could pawn his pawn his modern art and make a fortune.
If we rob the lonely widow
we could steal her credit cards
and buy a cottage by the ocean.
If we swim to Junk Island we'll burn up like the seagulls
and the whiskey bottles.

We're scrapped valentines.
We're tangerine rinds.
We're crimes, crimes, crimes, crimes, crimes. [x4]

And the children
in the subway
eating apple cores.
Is anybody listening?
They're breathing paint out of plastic bags.
Their mumbled mouths say:
"Is anybody listening?"

There's a fire
on Junk Island where
they send their garbage
is anybody listening?

After work we'll watch
the seagulls diving in
and out of the lashing towers of flame.

It twinkles like a pile
of rotting jewels left
to bake in the sun.
Is anybody listening?

We're just like those condom wrappers: used up torn up
thrown away.
And we're just like yesterday's headlines:
drifting, floating, towards the blaze.

If we rob the
liquor store we could
be in Tijuana by the crack of dawn.
If we rob the
mayor's mansion
we could pawn his pawn his modern art and make a fortune.
If we rob the lonely widow
we could steal her credit cards
and buy a cottage by the ocean.
If we swim to Junk Island we'll burn up like the seagulls
and the whiskey bottles.

We're scrapped valentines.
We're tangerine rinds.
We're crimes, crimes, crimes, crimes, crimes. [x4]

And the children
in the subway
eating apple cores.
Is anybody listening?
They're breathing paint out of plastic bags.
Their mumbled mouths say:
"Is anybody listening?"
Did you write that?

Okay, let's face some harsh realities.

America right now is a Fundamentalist Protestant regime that has a thriving Islamaphobia industry. From entertainment to serious media, America will always try to portray Muslims as a culture of constantly angry and homicidal killers looking for more infidels to chop the heads off or blow the shit out of.

And the fact is, these people will ignore the good decent Muslims because those will disrupt their fairy tale fantasies of every Muslim being a race of Jihadists. Look at Oklahoma for instance. Before it came out that McVeigh was responsible, everyone was screaming "Muslim Terrorist" even before the newsflash hit.

Of course before Islam was the boogieman of the day, America had another culture they singled out as genetically evil. The Japanese. After Pearl Harbor, every American unequivocably believed even the second generation nisei to have some genetic loyalty to Tojo and the Empire of Japan. In fact, this belief was so pervasive it managed to convince Roosevelt to agree to the formation of concen- er "internment" camps where anyone of Japanese ancestry would be quarantined and left to rot until the end of the war. And all that did in the end was not prove the Japanese were traitors to America. It just proved America as a whole is supremacist and cost the country some money years down the road.

I won't comment on the murder specifically until the chatroom transcripts ever come out. If he did give away his address though, that was a reckless behavior on his part that did cost his family their lives. It's the kind of Darwin-worthy performance much like that story (whether it's true or not) of that dead jackass who broke into a polar bear exhibit at the zoo just to kick the bear in his testicles hard.

Doesn't excuse the killers, but risking your family's life just to feel like a smug superior asshole is just asking for it.

Okay, let's face some harsh realities.

America right now is a Fundamentalist Protestant regime that has a thriving Islamaphobia industry. From entertainment to serious media, America will always try to portray Muslims as a culture of constantly angry and homicidal killers looking for more infidels to chop the heads off or blow the shit out of.

And the fact is, these people will ignore the good decent Muslims because those will disrupt their fairy tale fantasies of every Muslim being a race of Jihadists. Look at Oklahoma for instance. Before it came out that McVeigh was responsible, everyone was screaming "Muslim Terrorist" even before the newsflash hit.

Of course before Islam was the boogieman of the day, America had another culture they singled out as genetically evil. The Japanese. After Pearl Harbor, every American unequivocably believed even the second generation nisei to have some genetic loyalty to Tojo and the Empire of Japan. In fact, this belief was so pervasive it managed to convince Roosevelt to agree to the formation of concen- er "internment" camps where anyone of Japanese ancestry would be quarantined and left to rot until the end of the war. And all that did in the end was not prove the Japanese were traitors to America. It just proved America as a whole is supremacist and cost the country some money years down the road.

I won't comment on the murder specifically until the chatroom transcripts ever come out. If he did give away his address though, that was a reckless behavior on his part that did cost his family their lives. It's the kind of Darwin-worthy performance much that story (whether it's true or not) of that dead jackass who broke into a polar bear exhibit at the zoo just to kick the bear in his testicles hard.

Doesn't excuse the killers, but risking your family's life just to feel like a smug superior asshole is just asking for it.
As is usual with someone of your ilk, the wheel's spinning, but the hamster's dead. :D

Of course before Islam was the boogieman of the day, America had another culture they singled out as genetically evil. The Japanese. After Pearl Harbor, every American unequivocably believed even the second generation nisei to have some genetic loyalty to Tojo and the Empire of Japan. In fact, this belief was so pervasive it managed to convince Roosevelt to agree to the formation of concen- er "internment" camps where anyone of Japanese ancestry would be quarantined and left to rot until the end of the war. And all that did in the end was not prove the Japanese were traitors to America. It just proved America as a whole is supremacist and cost the country some money years down the road..
You just reminded me of a song by Naked Raygun, but I'm not gonna spammify this thread.

Anyway...
I agree, people seem to need a scapegoat, or, as it were, a race of scapegoats.

HMMMMMMMMM......
I wonder if the murderer had been Christian, would this case have gottrn so much attention?
NO!

HMMMMMMMMM......
I wonder if the murderer had been Christian, would this case have gottrn so much attention? NO!
Perhaps not, but I seem to remember quite a bit of media attention to a handful of incidents involving harassment and intimidation of Moslems right after 9/11.

I give my congratulations to the Muslims if this actually happened, link to source please.

I give my congratulations to the Muslims if this actually happened, link to source please.
I don't know of any. It's just something I remember after 9/11, which after all was over three years ago. I also remember there was a convenience store clerk or owner of Indian extraction who was mistaken for a Moslem and attacked by some dweeb too.

(Assuming you're Christian, which you may not be, but just to clarify) Do you feel the need to apologize for Tim McVeigh? Of course not and nobody would expect you to.

However, since I am Muslim, I am required to apologize for Osama bin Laden. My son, should he decide to be Muslim, was not even born yet when the WTC was attacked and, yet, he will be told he needs to "do more" about this bin Laden thing.

There are very very few who would cheer what McVeigh did, but there are many who cheer or remain indifferent to what Bin Laden does.That is the difference.

Why do non-topics get such responses. There is nothing to show that Muslims commited the crime. Speculation because the victim was deliberately antagonistic on a muslim forum is far from any concrete proof. It's not even much of an investigative lead. Trolling at it's worst.