NationStates Jolt Archive

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

Flamewar in 5....4....3....

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

Science and religion really never got along anyway.

That's not a flaw in the christian faith. Something had to come into existance on it's own. Whether it's god, or the universe, something came to be without a cause. I personally don't beleive in god, but your argument is weak IMHO.

Did you really take the time to past that mindblowing statement... to create an entire thread???

First of all, stop bashing a religion just because you don't believe in what it teaches. You reserve the right to believe what you want, however, you don't reserve the right to trash or bash the religion.

Second, God just was, is and will be. It's as simple as that.

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.

exactly... what the person above said...lol about the whole don't bash on other beliefs...

*puts on heat resistant gloves*
Why do I think this is gonna go on for a while

This might supprise people but we can't quite explain everything yet and as religion is based on faith not on known fact which science its really a bit silly to compare and contrast

If your problem with the faith is a belief that God is a creator or that there is a powerful supernatural being then why do you limit it to Chritianity? Islam, Judiaism, The Thai form of Bhudism, and if you count Multiple dieties Hinduism all have a belief in a higher power that creates/destroys. I found it interesting that you singled out Christianity for your tirade.

Perhaps your problem with Christianity has other roots than pure intellectual dissagreement, for if that was the only reason you would surely have noticed these similarities in many other major religeons of the world.

If you don't believe in God you must believe in the "Big Bang theory", what created all of that mass that imploded?

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.

I disagree with the Church sometimes as well. The basic principle of christianity is that God sacrificed his son so that we could have eternal life. The fact remains the same, if what Jesus taught (love, peace, sharing wealth) is applied, it makes life much, much better.

I crash and bash whatever I want!

*puts on heat resistant gloves*
Why do I think this is gonna go on for a while

Because threads with this topic always go on for a while? :)

I crash and bash whatever I want!

Which will get you into trouble later in life. Have fun.

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.

Go you. You're my new best friend.

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.
Well stated (add hypocracy(but that is by no means universal) ... but that is not built into the religion like the others)

Originally Posted by Seperatists for Trade
I crash and bash whatever I want!



That shows ur immaturity in the matter...and that ur a naive lil pig... *nods and scuttles off*

Why do the worst threads last forever? :(

Why do the worst threads last forever? :(
We can kill it by hijacking it with a joke thread.

We can kill it by hijacking it with a joke thread.
or :fluffle: a lot!

Why do the worst threads last forever? :(

Because that's what God wanted of course (I'm being sarcastic)

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.
Who helped you correct the broken English in the original post? I liked it better.
As someone I know said, It was teh funny.

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

And we have no proof to support Macro Evolution either.

Science is a misleading term, just like religion you have to have faith in your theories. Science implies that it is a proven fact but we have no proof that we are evolved from Apes, creation and evolution both have their flaws, it is up to you to decide which seems more correct in your mind and have faith in your decision making abilities.

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.
One problem with the big bang theory is...sure everything was compacted in a tiny little ball thing, but where did all that come from?

Its just something we can;t say, we can constantly ask 'where did this come from' but soon enough we can't answer that question anymore

One problem with the big bang theory is...sure everything was compacted in a tiny little ball thing, but where did all that come from?

Its just something we can;t say, we can constantly ask 'where did this come from' but soon enough we can't answer that question anymore
And how does the origin of god differ?

This should be fun..

I'm a Unitarian, someone tell me what's wrong with my religion (and please have some idea what a Unitarian is). Basically, it's the charity and love thing as most Christianity, except you don't HAVE to believe in the Christian god.

And how does the origin of god differ?
It doesn't thats what I am saying

And how does the origin of god differ?

at last we have got to the major flaw of this discussion the fact that none of us can prove what happened because there is no way of proving it al we can do is have a go at each others theories or beliefs

at last we have got to the major flaw of this discussion the fact that none of us can prove what happened because there is no way of proving it al we can do is have a go at each others theories or beliefs
For now yup

at last we have got to the major flaw of this discussion the fact that none of us can prove what happened because there is no way of proving it al we can do is have a go at each others theories or beliefs

Actually Gataway_Driver I WAS there, it kind of sucked because usually at these events somebody was going around turning our water into wine so we didn't have to pay for it, but that day no water was turned....really harshed our buzz. Anyway, there was this cross, lots of yelling....and then I kid you NOT but Paris Hilton was there promoting ANOTHER season of the Simple Life, My GOD that girl shows up at ANY photo Opportunity!

And we have no proof to support Macro Evolution either.

There is no "proof" of anything in science. However, there is a plethora of *evidence*.

Science is a misleading term, just like religion you have to have faith in your theories.

Wow, you know very little about science. In science, you don't have faith in your theories at all. In fact, you know and expect that parts of them will be disproven along the way.

Science implies that it is a proven fact but we have no proof that we are evolved from Apes,

Science has never implied that it is a "proven fact." Perhaps you should try studying the scientific method a bit.

However, there is quite a bit of *evidence* that we evolved from a common ancestor of all primates.

creation and evolution both have their flaws,

Yes, one involves ignoring the majority of the data and taking a document that was meshed together from several conflicting accounts as literal, and the other involves actually looking at all of the evidence and knowing that evidence that contradicts it may be found.

it is up to you to decide which seems more correct in your mind and have faith in your decision making abilities.

Faith is meant for the realm in which science cannot be used. There is no need for it in the scientific realm.

Actually Gataway_Driver I WAS there, it kind of sucked because usually at these events somebody was going around turning our water into wine so we didn't have to pay for it, but that day no water was turned....really harshed our buzz. Anyway, there was this cross, lots of yelling....and then I kid you NOT but Paris Hilton was there promoting ANOTHER season of the Simple Life, My GOD that girl shows up at ANY photo Opportunity!

*applauds* very good

I was more refering though to the creation of the world

First of all. Alot of things don't make any sence. People belive for security, so they don't care whether it makes sense or not.

There is no "proof" of anything in science. However, there is a plethora of *evidence*.



Wow, you know very little about science. In science, you don't have faith in your theories at all. In fact, you know and expect that parts of them will be disproven along the way.



Science has never implied that it is a "proven fact." Perhaps you should try studying the scientific method a bit.

However, there is quite a bit of *evidence* that we evolved from a common ancestor of all primates.



Yes, one involves ignoring the majority of the data and taking a document that was meshed together from several conflicting accounts as literal, and the other involves actually looking at all of the evidence and knowing that evidence that contradicts it may be found.



Faith is meant for the realm in which science cannot be used. There is no need for it in the scientific realm.

One difference between the two, with religion your not trying to prove a God exists, because he only exists with faith, its a long and complicating thing to explain, but if we knew he existed we wouldn't need faith, and our God lives off faith, so if we know he exists, he indeed doesn't.

In science your trying to prove thing, and not just beleiving and having faith in them.

*applauds* very good

I was more refering though to the creation of the world

Ohhh, THAT!? Well I wish I could help you out but I was having my teeth cleaned that day and pretty much missed the whole event, but I do remember that afterwards there was ice-cream and I was allowed to stay up later than usual.

God=Faith. He ISN'T made of matter in ANY way. He is Thought itself.He predestined everything and allowed the Big Bang to happen, setting the Universe in motion.

Ohhh, THAT!? Well I wish I could help you out but I was having my teeth cleaned that day and pretty much missed the whole event, but I do remember that afterwards there was ice-cream and I was allowed to stay up later than usual.
Wouldn't have been much of a show n e way

First of all, stop bashing a religion just because you don't believe in what it teaches. You reserve the right to believe what you want, however, you don't reserve the right to trash or bash the religion.

Second, God just was, is and will be. It's as simple as that.

Thats not fair. Nobody is alowed to question christianity but its okay to tell an athiest that they're going to hell and they are a bad person. If religion is a sacred thing that nodoby is allowed to speak ill of. Then so is atheism!

And how does the origin of god differ?
By the laws of science, the Big Bang could not have occured. By the laws of religion, God could exist. Science doesn't play by its own rules.

If anything ... religion is more adapatable then science is... while leaving its followers wth a foundation of belifs that generally dont change.. Science can provide neither of these.. what we call science is simply whas is the generally accepted theories amongst the scientific community.. you can belive one thing today and it can be proven wrong tomorrow, until you dont know what to belive anymore. Say for intance.. some thing so simple as human anatiamy. For years we belived women were born with a set number of eggs in their ovums.. and that once they were depleted that was it.. And the recently we find out that what we belived was a fact about the female reproduction system was wrong.. infact the ovaries Produce eggs throughout the life cycle of the person..a nd that there is no set amount.. Something so simple yet basic.. is mind blowing in the least.. In fact science is unable to deliver any definitive answers on any subject.. they can't even say vegtibales are good for you as every day we find out more and more will lead to increased chances of cancer... Meanwhile religion has adapted and been accepted for thousands of years and contiues to largely be relevant today, all thewhile maintaining most of its core foundations (to be good, moral, belive in god christ..etc). this is not to say things dont change cause they do.. many of the old beliefs have changed.. but these core foundations remain..

Science offers no stalibilty in what one can belive..

Wouldn't have been much of a show n e way


Well, no, especially after Roy got attacked by that tiger so he and Seigfried cancelled and were replaced by Celine Dion...Ugh, The creation of Mars was MUCH more fun, the Go Go's reunited for that one!

Well, no, especially after Roy got attacked by that tiger so he and Seigfried cancelled and were replaced by Celine Dion...Ugh, The creation of Mars was MUCH more fun, the Go Go's reunited for that one!

now seriously that WOULD have been worth watching

wait.. i dont understand why science and religion can't work in tandum ?

why couldn't the big bang have occured if god exists.. the bible only describes what happen.. but it may well have been describing the events over billions of years with the creation of earth.. It says god created the earth in 7 days.. what is 7 days to god.. you think the bible is so explicit in its writing that it is meant that 7 days is equal to our 7 days.. ? our notion of 7 day weeks hasn't even existed throughout our entire existance as humans let alone what it is to god.. 7 days to him could be 4, 5, 7 billiion years.. who knows.

the same for evolution.. god created man and woman from the very dust.. one could argue basic life came from the earth as well bacteria and such.. evolution intertwined with relgiion fills many of the holes both belifs suffer from

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

science believes that the whole universe came together without a creator, where did the universe come from if nothing ever created it? the law of concervation of matter states (in part) that matter can be neither created nor destroyed. If a point of creation is needed for a thing to be scientifically valid, where did matter come from? The sword cuts both ways.

Matter is infinite, why can't God be infinite as well?

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.

Although there will always be room for personal growth, the principles of true Christianity are perfect and not in need of improvement. Only we are in need of improvement.

Lets just end it with this.

God exists, if he exists, beyond the realm of normal reality. There is no way to measure anything of that nature. Once you move beyond the third dimention, things become a bit more odd, and indefineable. It is arguable that God exists in a realm of time greater than ours, so that It can see everything that was, is, and will be in It's greater realm of time. Just because It can see what lies in the future doesn't mean he effects it, mind you, and tampers with free will. Anyone with intelligence knows that observing is not causing.

Upon that, it is POSSIBLE that what the bible is depicting in the book of Genisis is a dumbed down and simplified version of evolution. Mud is taken from the earth, and is made into a human. Perhaps the real meaning is a bit subtler.

Upon that, Christianity is open minded. Your average Christian isn't.

"Love thy neighbor as thy self." I believe is what Yoshua said. That's about as open minded as you get; to love all other people no matter what they are like. Don't hate anyone. Let he who is sinless cast the first stone. No one is sinless, and therefore, no one should hate another for their sins, for it is hypocrisy.

wait.. i dont understand why science and religion can't work in tandum ?

why couldn't the big bang have occured if god exists.. the bible only describes what happen.. but it may well have been describing the events over billions of years with the creation of earth.. It says god created the earth in 7 days.. what is 7 days to god.. you think the bible is so explicit in its writing that it is meant that 7 days is equal to our 7 days.. ? our notion of 7 day weeks hasn't even existed throughout our entire existance as humans let alone what it is to god.. 7 days to him could be 4, 5, 7 billiion years.. who knows.

the same for evolution.. god created man and woman from the very dust.. one could argue basic life came from the earth as well bacteria and such.. evolution intertwined with relgiion fills many of the holes both belifs suffer from
The word "day" in Genesis means 24 hours. Not "day." But even still, this isn't an issue absolutely central to the Christian faith, so I don't care much about it.

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

God created our minds with limits, we cannot understand God in our terms. God created "creation", it is not something that he needs since it's origin is only with Him. I know this is hard to grasp, but it's the truth.

God does not need thousands of years to create the universe, 7 days is 7 days. When the Bible was written they had words for "thousands of years", "millions of years", or "seven ages" and those are not used. It even says that night fell and when day rose began the next day.

Don't worry, the world is not billions of years old like this secular society wants you to believe. There is so many things that contradict long ages . I'll give you an example:

When taking into account the erosion and damage that wind and the ocean does to the continents, if the earth was billions of years old like they say then the continents would have eroded away multiple times! And this is taking into account the average rates today. The rotation of the earth is slowing down, we gain a second every 3 years to our days. This means that the earth used to be moving faster, thus making winds and ocean waves more potent. Go back only a few million years and the earth would have been spinning so fast that night and day would be flashes and winds would be more than 5,000 mph! The moon is moving away from the earth slowly. The moon used to be closer to the earth, thus making tidal waves much stronger.

That is just a bit, there is MUCH MUCH more to this. It is a flat out lie that the earth is older than 6,000 years when you take into account every bit of evidence. The scientists that preach otherwise know this, but they don't want to rewrite history and embarrass themselves (nor let the horrible possibility of God into modern science), so they ignore evidence, lie, and preach unproven facts as truth.

I have gone though more doubts and considered more outlandish false theories than I wish to recall, however God has made Himself and The Bible evident to be true with many infallibe truths. I wrote a 30 page paper highlighting on some of this, if you want to read it just e-mail me and I'll reply with it attached.

By the laws of science, the Big Bang could not have occured.

Really? And which "law" would that be?

By the laws of religion, God could exist.

As far as science is concerned, God could exist - it is simply irrelevant as any all-powerful being would exist outside the rules of the Universe and thus, by definition, be outside the realm of science.

Science doesn't play by its own rules.

Not once you start injecting "Creationists" into the mix, but for the most part, yes, it does.

If anything ... religion is more adapatable then science is...

Yeah, about that...

Who was it that suggested that maybe the Earth *wasn't* the center of the universe? Oh yeah, Galileo... a *scientist*...

Who tried to off him? Uhh... the Catholic Church... yeah...

The nature of science allows it to be adaptable... on the other hand, religion only seems to change when it has absolutely no choice...

The word "day" in Genesis means 24 hours. Not "day."

Yes, because the Bible was written in English.

But even still, this isn't an issue absolutely central to the Christian faith, so I don't care much about it.

This, at least, is true.

The word "day" in Genesis means 24 hours. Not "day." But even still, this isn't an issue absolutely central to the Christian faith, so I don't care much about it.

That is up to speculation. It is Jewish tradition to question the Torah to learn more about what they believe. Christianity decends from Jewish roots. You should be able to question what is writting to see what is inbetween the lines rather than simply taking it for black and white face value. There's always more to it than that. Simply, we will never know the truth. Just something like it.

Really? And which "law" would that be?
That infinity is impossible. Everything has to converge. There has to be a logical end to the universe, it's not infinite, it's just expanding. But it still has outer bounds. All the equations in quantum mechanics depend on time being finite. For time to be finite, it would have to have a beginning and an end. If time had a beginning, then before time, there would be nothing. Not empty space, just nothing. Then for time to start, everything would have to be created somehow. Matter can't be created, it can be changed into energy and back, but you cannot create either.

How do u know the word day meant 24 hours.. ?

first of all liek that other fellow pointed out..teh bible wasn't written in english.. and it was never explicitly defined what a day is ...

Yes, because the Bible was written in English.
As infantile as you are, I'll indulge you. The word used in Genesis literally translates 24 hours. Now try reading the King James' version but replacing day with twenty four hour period. Gets kind of stupid and awkward doesn't it?

Yeah, about that...

Who was it that suggested that maybe the Earth *wasn't* the center of the universe? Oh yeah, Galileo... a *scientist*...

Who tried to off him? Uhh... the Catholic Church... yeah...

The nature of science allows it to be adaptable... on the other hand, religion only seems to change when it has absolutely no choice...

I believe the Vatican apologized for that. Galileo was a great man. If not for him and the original Illuminati, things would not be as they are today. It'd be more ignorant.

When the Illuminati wanted to take up arms against the Christians, do you know what Galileo did? He said no. He wouldn't resort to violence, it would only put his position in a worse light than it already was.

That infinity is impossible. Everything has to converge. There has to be a logical end to the universe, it's not infinite, it's just expanding. But it still has outer bounds. All the equations in quantum mechanics depend on time being finite. For time to be finite, it would have to have a beginning and an end. If time had a beginning, then before time, there would be nothing. Not empty space, just nothing. Then for time to start, everything would have to be created somehow. Matter can't be created, it can be changed into energy and back, but you cannot create either.

Infinity is possible, because God is infinite. Infinity is just impossible in three dimentions. God is not restrained by such things.

Yeah, about that...

Who was it that suggested that maybe the Earth *wasn't* the center of the universe? Oh yeah, Galileo... a *scientist*...

Who tried to off him? Uhh... the Catholic Church... yeah...

The nature of science allows it to be adaptable... on the other hand, religion only seems to change when it has absolutely no choice...

I think religion these days is a lot more adaptable these days. I mean of course we have the "blind faith" believers than we used to and they don't run the Catholic church. And in defence of the Catholic church that was quite a while ago. I think it was because they were afraid of what they don't understand. Theres real flame potential but i'll resist this one

That infinity is impossible.

There is no such "law". And "law" in the realm of science is very different from the way in which you use it as even a "law" is falsifiable and may be disproven at any time.

All the equations in quantum mechanics depend on time being finite.

Like every theory in science, the equations in quantum mechanics are falsifiable. If we find a situation in which they don't apply, they will no longer be the leading theory.

Newtonian physics is still utilized. We know it to be wrong in many cases, but it works well enough for our scale that we use it anyways.

Of course, I am not a physicist, so I don't even know if your assertion here is true.

There is no such "law". And "law" in the realm of science is very different from the way in which you use it as even a "law" is falsifiable and may be disproven at any time.
See how easy it is to argue when anytime a counterexample is made you just simply say that your theory is dynamic, and thus not wrong just incomplete? You can either argue with the science we have today or the science you think we will one day have. By today's science, the Big Bang couldn't have occured. As I understand, it's not even the leading theory anymore.

As infantile as you are, I'll indulge you.

I love it when they resort to insults...

The word used in Genesis literally translates 24 hours.

Funny, every single Hebrew scholar I have ever talked to or read about said the opposite. Care to post your resume?

Now try reading the King James' version but replacing day with twenty four hour period. Gets kind of stupid and awkward doesn't it?

If you are reading the KJV as anything other than horribly mangled scripture to be laughed at, you are certainly not any type of expert on the subject.

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

God created our minds with limits, we cannot understand God in our terms. God created "creation", it is not something that he needs since it's origin is only with Him. I know this is hard to grasp, but it's the truth.

God does not need thousands of years to create the universe, 7 days is 7 days. When the Bible was written they had words for "thousands of years", "millions of years", or "seven ages" and those are not used. It even says that night fell and when day rose began the next day.

Don't worry, the world is not billions of years old like this secular society wants you to believe. There is so many things that contradict long ages . I'll give you an example:

When taking into account the erosion and damage that wind and the ocean does to the continents, if the earth was billions of years old like they say then the continents would have eroded away multiple times! And this is taking into account the average rates today. The rotation of the earth is slowing down, we gain a second every 3 years to our days. This means that the earth used to be moving faster, thus making winds and ocean waves more potent. Go back only a few million years and the earth would have been spinning so fast that night and day would be flashes and winds would be more than 5,000 mph! The moon is moving away from the earth slowly. The moon used to be closer to the earth, thus making tidal waves much stronger.

That is just a bit, there is MUCH MUCH more to this. It is a flat out lie that the earth is older than 6,000 years when you take into account every bit of evidence. The scientists that preach otherwise know this, but they don't want to rewrite history and embarrass themselves (nor let the horrible possibility of God into modern science), so they ignore evidence, lie, and preach unproven facts as truth.

I have gone though more doubts and considered more outlandish false theories than I wish to recall, however God has made Himself and The Bible evident to be true with many infallibe truths. I wrote a 30 page paper highlighting on some of this, if you want to read it just e-mail me and I'll reply with it attached.

KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

In a way these arguments are pointless. There are many things that Evolution and the Origin of Species cannot explain. But you have to remember, God is not science. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. For something to be science, it must be able to be tested, and repeated by others using the same methods. God cannot be tested in a scientific perspective.

But something to think about, where in Evolution does it say there is no god? Where is the Bible does it say there is no evolution? Evolution trying to explain how life came to be, from a scientific perspective using testable experiments, observations and math.

Micro-Evolution exists, it's been scientifically proven. Micro-Evolution is changes in the frequency of the gene alleles within a population. Macro-Evolution is where the controversy lies and where scientific evidence lacks. This is where the new species and man from ape controversy is.

In my opinion, both work together. I am a devout Christian, but I also acknowledge that Evolution exists. Does it matter that Evolution exists? No. There are more important things to be worried about. Yes. Are there flaws in The Theory of Evolution? I believe so. Are there flaws in the Bible? Not that I have found. We are all free to believe what we want, that's the beauty of the gift that is free-will.

I leave you with a quote from one of the greatest scientific minds ever.
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

See how easy it is to argue when anytime a counterexample is made you just simply say that your theory is dynamic, and thus not wrong just incomplete?

Thus is the beauty of science. It *is* dynamic, and moves closer to the truth with every new piece of evidence.

You can either argue with the science we have today or the science you think we will one day have.

I am discussing the very principles of science, regardless of current/past/future theories.

By today's science, the Big Bang couldn't have occured. As I understand, it's not even the leading theory anymore.

Like I said, I'm not a physicist, so I don't know what the current theory is among physicists.

I love it when they resort to insults...
I love it when people deliberately misread something and get whiny when called on it. Oh wait, I don't.

Funny, every single Hebrew scholar I have ever talked to or read about said the opposite. Care to post your resume?
Care to post your Hebrew scholars?

If you are reading the KJV as anything other than horribly mangled scripture to be laughed at, you are certainly not any type of expert on the subject.
If you are reading a science textbook as anything other than horribly mangled scripture to be laughed at, you are certainly not any type of expert on the subject.

By today's science, the Big Bang couldn't have occured. As I understand, it's not even the leading theory anymore.

And just how exactly do you understand, by today's science, that the Big Bang couldn't have occurred - and do please illustrate what model is currently de rigeur in cosmology, I am (and surely others are) most interested in your understanding of the matter. Please elucidate sir.

Thus is the beauty of science. It *is* dynamic, and moves closer to the truth with every new piece of evidence.
Or does it? Maybe we've been moving backwards. You don't know, you have to have faith that science is moving forward.

I am discussing the very principles of science, regardless of current/past/future theories.
So in principle you're right because your dogma, which changes constantly, says that eventually it's always right?

Like I said, I'm not a physicist, so I don't know what the current theory is among physicists.
That wasn't meant to be a point. It was just an observation.

And just how exactly do you understand, by today's science, that the Big Bang couldn't have occurred - and do please illustrate what model is currently de rigeur in cosmology, I am (and surely others are) most interested in your understanding of the matter. Please elucidate sir.
Read the earlier post in the thread. It helps you look less like a fool when you don't ask someone to repeat something already said.

God does not need thousands of years to create the universe, 7 days is 7 days. When the Bible was written they had words for "thousands of years", "millions of years", or "seven ages" and those are not used. It even says that night fell and when day rose began the next day.

Why do you ignore the Yahwistic account of creation, contained in the exact same book as the Priestly one?

When taking into account the erosion and damage that wind and the ocean does to the continents, if the earth was billions of years old like they say then the continents would have eroded away multiple times!

Never mind that other processes push Earth upwards (aka mountain formation, volcanos, plate movement.)

The rotation of the earth is slowing down, we gain a second every 3 years to our days. This means that the earth used to be moving faster, thus making winds and ocean waves more potent. Go back only a few million years and the earth would have been spinning so fast that night and day would be flashes and winds would be more than 5,000 mph!
The moon is moving away from the earth slowly. The moon used to be closer to the earth, thus making tidal waves much stronger.

Oooh, I see you have seen the same lecture I saw. Did you hear about how the sun would've been touching the Earth too?

Of course, this is all based on the silly and unfounded assumption that none of these processes have ever, will ever, or could ever have had different rates. Stars have different stages - anyone with a cursory knowledge of astronomy is aware of this. There is *no* reason to believe that the sun has been shrinking at the same rate for all of eternity. The same is true for the rest of this as well.

In a way these arguments are pointless. There are many things that Evolution and the Origin of Species cannot explain. But you have to remember, God is not science. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. For something to be science, it must be able to be tested, and repeated by others using the same methods. God cannot be tested in a scientific perspective.

But something to think about, where in Evolution does it say there is no god? Where is the Bible does it say there is no evolution? Evolution trying to explain how life came to be, from a scientific perspective using testable experiments, observations and math.

Micro-Evolution exists, it's been scientifically proven. Micro-Evolution is changes in the frequency of the gene alleles within a population. Macro-Evolution is where the controversy lies and where scientific evidence lacks. This is where the new species and man from ape controversy is.

In my opinion, both work together. I am a devout Christian, but I also acknowledge that Evolution exists. Does it matter that Evolution exists? No. There are more important things to be worried about. Yes. Are there flaws in The Theory of Evolution? I believe so. Are there flaws in the Bible? Not that I have found. We are all free to believe what we want, that's the beauty of the gift that is free-will.

I leave you with a quote from one of the greatest scientific minds ever.
Hey, I posted that quote a while back. Doesn't everybody tire of these threads after a while?

Give me a page and a post number and I'll consider it. Why should I go out of my way for you, fool or no?

The flaw in your proposed 'flaw:'

The Bible covers the start of the mortal world. It doesn't affirm or deny where God came from.
Furthermore, it isn't just Christian. All of the major monotheistic religions follow the same general framework.
Lastly, science proves that God does exist. Check www.creationists.org
The people that run it have PhDs in various fields of science.

Give me a page and a post number and I'll consider it. Why should I go out of my way for you, fool or no?
Because you asked me to provide something. I already did. It's generally common decency to read someone's arguments before attacking them, no?

In a way these arguments are pointless. There are many things that Evolution and the Origin of Species cannot explain. But you have to remember, God is not science. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. For something to be science, it must be able to be tested, and repeated by others using the same methods. God cannot be tested in a scientific perspective.

But something to think about, where in Evolution does it say there is no god? Where is the Bible does it say there is no evolution? Evolution trying to explain how life came to be, from a scientific perspective using testable experiments, observations and math.

Micro-Evolution exists, it's been scientifically proven. Micro-Evolution is changes in the frequency of the gene alleles within a population. Macro-Evolution is where the controversy lies and where scientific evidence lacks. This is where the new species and man from ape controversy is.

In my opinion, both work together. I am a devout Christian, but I also acknowledge that Evolution exists. Does it matter that Evolution exists? No. There are more important things to be worried about. Yes. Are there flaws in The Theory of Evolution? I believe so. Are there flaws in the Bible? Not that I have found. We are all free to believe what we want, that's the beauty of the gift that is free-will.

I leave you with a quote from one of the greatest scientific minds ever.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken.

In order for evolution to be true many many deaths are required to achieve a change. In the garden of Eden there was no death, not until Adam and Eve sinned.

Micro-Evolution is poorly named. It is simply natural selection and it is not evolution, and none of the other kinds of evolution have ever been observed or proven.

Natural selection is simply the laws of averages and death taking favor of certain traits, thus allowing them to pass their genes on while other traits are lost within the species. The origionals had all of the traits, like the first horse contained all of the traits of horses, zebra, exc. Because of where they lived and what happened some genes were lost and some with say larger noses survived and therefore the species all hard large noses.

Changes can happen without the creation of new genetic information.

I wish Christians would believe the infallible Bible before they would believe some fallible lying scientists. If they looked they would find that God does shine though.

e-mail me if you want to know more. KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

My problem with religion is Hell.
God makes man.
God makes me an atheist.
God damns me to eternal torment, for what he made me.
God is therefore the most unfair entity imaginable. Just and benevolent???!?!
God therefore holds all the cards and wins all the tricks.
I'd rather believe in nothing than this hypocrisy, brainwashing and threats.

According to the Bible:
(lightly paraphrasing since it's not right in front of me)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God."

The Word, in this case, is Jesus.

Elsewhere in the Bible, Jesus is called (and calls himself) Alpha and Omega (First and Last/Beginning and End).

In terms of creation vs. evolution.... is it not possible that a day, as it was described in the Bible, was meant to mean, say, billions of years? Perhaps it was said to have been created in days so that people would have an easier time understanding it... than if they were to try and fathom the same occurring over 50 billion years or whatever.

Whatever you think about Christianity, if Jesus was right, then we've got a lot of introspection to do and forgiveness to ask.

And even if you're not a Christian... Jesus did set a pretty solid example as to how to live your life.

Care to post your Hebrew scholars?

Check any theology journal. Unfortunately, in order to actually get articles, a trip to the library is probably in order - there isn't much free info as there isn't much demand for it.

If you are reading a science textbook as anything other than horribly mangled scripture to be laughed at, you are certainly not any type of expert on the subject.

*Wonders at what point anyone ever said that a science textbook was scripture, or that it was the end-all-be-all in science."

It is a *fact* that the KJV is horribly mangled. Much of it is a translation of a translation of a translation. And the *entire* thing was commissioned by a king willing to kill the translators if there was anything in it that he didn't like.

Obviously, the best option would be to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, etc. to be able to read the original (or oldest that we have) texts. However, some of us don't have the time/money to learn these languages and really don't pick them up that well anyways. For us, there is the Oxford Annotated NRSV - translated directly to English from the oldest available text with commentary on those points which theological scholars disagree about. I highly recommend it.

First of all, stop bashing a religion just because you don't believe in what it teaches. You reserve the right to believe what you want, however, you don't reserve the right to trash or bash the religion.

Second, God just was, is and will be. It's as simple as that.
True.

My problem with religion is Hell.
God makes man.
God makes me an atheist.
God damns me to eternal torment, for what he made me.
God is therefore the most unfair entity imaginable. Just and benevolent???!?!
God therefore holds all the cards and wins all the tricks.
I'd rather believe in nothing than this hypocrisy, brainwashing and threats.
G-d doesn't make you an atheist, you choose to be an atheist. Freedom of choice, you know.

According to the Bible:
(lightly paraphrasing since it's not right in front of me)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God."

The Word, in this case, is Jesus.

Elsewhere in the Bible, Jesus is called (and calls himself) Alpha and Omega (First and Last/Beginning and End).

In terms of creation vs. evolution.... is it not possible that a day, as it was described in the Bible, was meant to mean, say, billions of years? Perhaps it was said to have been created in days so that people would have an easier time understanding it... than if they were to try and fathom the same occurring over 50 billion years or whatever.

Whatever you think about Christianity, if Jesus was right, then we've got a lot of introspection to do and forgiveness to ask.

And even if you're not a Christian... Jesus did set a pretty solid example as to how to live your life.

This poster has shown the most sensible and acceptable compromise. I can easily how that is possible as an interpretation. But i would neve belong to a monotheistic religion, since they are in general hypocritical and ridiculous inflexible.

Or does it? Maybe we've been moving backwards. You don't know, you have to have faith that science is moving forward.

You're right. The Earth *is* flat and everything is made up of fire, earth, water, and air. There are no microbes and you think with your heart.

First of all, stop bashing a religion just because you don't believe in what it teaches. You reserve the right to believe what you want, however, you don't reserve the right to trash or bash the religion.

Second, God just was, is and will be. It's as simple as that.

You sound nearly as intolerant.

If you can claim a God that "was, is and will be", why cannot someone claim a universe that "was, is and will be".

An eternal, infinite, no need to be created God versus the same for the universe as a whole. The universe always was, versus God always was. Equally logical, equally unprovable. Merely saves a step.

You're right. The Earth *is* flat and everything is made up of fire, earth, water, and air. There are no microbes and you think with your heart.
Depends on the plane you're using. In Euclidian geometry, sure, the earth is round. But what about in hyperbolic or elliptical geometry? Then we're quite flat. And you forgot the ether, the invisible thing that light moves through, the element science added...

G-d doesn't make you an atheist, you choose to be an atheist. Freedom of choice, you know.

Freedom of choice? Its a pretty strange thing to say. "You can either believe in me and go to eternal bliss, or not and have eternal torture." In what way is that free? he could at least reveal his existence so we could know. Otherwise... well, its just wrong. he must be omnipotent, so whats wrong with letting us know something about him?

Why do you ignore the Yahwistic account of creation, contained in the exact same book as the Priestly one?



Never mind that other processes push Earth upwards (aka mountain formation, volcanos, plate movement.)



Oooh, I see you have seen the same lecture I saw. Did you hear about how the sun would've been touching the Earth too?

Of course, this is all based on the silly and unfounded assumption that none of these processes have ever, will ever, or could ever have had different rates. Stars have different stages - anyone with a cursory knowledge of astronomy is aware of this. There is *no* reason to believe that the sun has been shrinking at the same rate for all of eternity. The same is true for the rest of this as well.

I know that they rates were different, they worked against long age theories worse than current numbers do! To use unknowns to try to disprove such things disproves atheist theories which are laiden with unknowns first.

Plate tectonics isn't what evolutionists say it is. In the Old Testament when talking about the flood it mentions that water shot out from under the ground. We can still see the scars on the earth from these, there was a large amount of water beneth the surface, which contributed to the flood's water. This, among other flood related things, were one time things that changed the continents. They didn't move before the flood, and they are still moving an extremely small amount today because of what happened.

Volcanoes? That doesn't compensate nearly, I'm man enough to admit that I don't know much about this topic but I am aware that it does not compensate and all of the continents are certinly not old lava.

It doesn't save your long age theory.

Freedom of choice? Its a pretty strange thing to say. "You can either believe in me and go to eternal bliss, or not and have eternal torture." In what way is that free? he could at least reveal his existence so we could know. Otherwise... well, its just wrong. he must be omnipotent, so whats wrong with letting us know something about him?
You could easily donate all your money to charity to make the world easier. Do you? No, it's not in your interest. God is not interested in revealing Himself more than He has. Why? Who knows? But that's the way things are. You're completely free. You can believe in God or you can't. The consequences of belief or disbelief are irrelevant. You can do whatever you want.

And you forgot the ether, the invisible thing that light moves through, the element science added...

Lumiferous ether doesnt actually exist. Was an accepted wisdom, postulated by the philosopher Descartes, disproved by the work of Michelson and Morley's experiments on the speed of light. Just thought you'd like to know.

God created our minds with limits, we cannot understand God in our terms. God created "creation", it is not something that he needs since it's origin is only with Him. I know this is hard to grasp, but it's the truth.

God does not need thousands of years to create the universe, 7 days is 7 days. When the Bible was written they had words for "thousands of years", "millions of years", or "seven ages" and those are not used. It even says that night fell and when day rose began the next day.

Don't worry, the world is not billions of years old like this secular society wants you to believe. There is so many things that contradict long ages . I'll give you an example:

Now, I'm not going to knock your interpretation of the Bible. However, for those of us more scientifically minded (or mystics for that matter), 7 days could just be simbolic of a basically timeless period, possibly even trillions of years which, had this been stated in the good book, would have overcomplicated the matter.
Secondly, I do understand the world to be millions of year old. My school reverend has an excellent theory he put to my class one RE lesson, namely: If God could create wine from water (a well known passage in the Bible - doing so through Jesus of course), wine which must have a past to have fermented to be the good wine that it was. Why then could God not create the earth - with a past (it never lived or lived in some alternate dimenstion etc.)? This allowes both science and the three faiths of Abraham to run in accord.
Finally, I must disagree with you about God making man incapable of comprehending creation. God made humans "in his image" and gave us the ability to make chioces, thus allowing evil to invest itself in some form. If He went this far, why wouldn't we be able to eventually understand "life, the universe and everything".
Most scientists who study the origins of the world have to admit that something started it all, it wasn't just some gasses (where did they come from?) starting the "Big Bang" M - theory and String theory are exceptionally interesting dealing with similar matters.

You could easily donate all your money to charity to make the world easier. Do you? No, it's not in your interest. God is not interested in revealing Himself more than He has. Why? Who knows? But that's the way things are. You're completely free. You can believe in God or you can't. The consequences of belief or disbelief are irrelevant. You can do whatever you want.

No, it isnt free. its completely unjust. Would you condemn someone to the death penalty for believing something which was wrong when that person didn'tknow all the facts.

The idea of God just appearing is the same as the big bang theory when you really, really think about it.

No, it isnt free. its completely unjust. Would you condemn someone to the death penalty for believing something which was wrong when that person didn'tknow all the facts.
God already gave all the facts. The person just chooses to ignore them. You can either believe God, or you can't. But if he's the judge, nuts to you.

If anything ... religion is more adapatable then science is... while leaving its followers wth a foundation of belifs that generally dont change.. Science can provide neither of these.. what we call science is simply whas is the generally accepted theories amongst the scientific community.. you can belive one thing today and it can be proven wrong tomorrow, until you dont know what to belive anymore. Say for intance.. some thing so simple as human anatiamy. For years we belived women were born with a set number of eggs in their ovums.. and that once they were depleted that was it.. And the recently we find out that what we belived was a fact about the female reproduction system was wrong.. infact the ovaries Produce eggs throughout the life cycle of the person..a nd that there is no set amount.. Something so simple yet basic.. is mind blowing in the least.. In fact science is unable to deliver any definitive answers on any subject.. they can't even say vegtibales are good for you as every day we find out more and more will lead to increased chances of cancer... Meanwhile religion has adapted and been accepted for thousands of years and contiues to largely be relevant today, all thewhile maintaining most of its core foundations (to be good, moral, belive in god christ..etc). this is not to say things dont change cause they do.. many of the old beliefs have changed.. but these core foundations remain..

Science offers no stalibilty in what one can belive..
People used to think the Earth was the center of the universe, then it was proven wrong by science. Supposedly everything revolved around the Earth, when people went out into space along with other things this was proven to be complete nonsense. So how can you find a scientific fact that everything revolves around the Earth? You are taking certin events and presenting it as a whole picture. We may not know if atoms are really composed with the electrons on the outside, but as of right now we have no way of finding out for sure.

I know that they rates were different, they worked against long age theories worse than current numbers do! To use unknowns to try to disprove such things disproves atheist theories which are laiden with unknowns first.

Volcanoes? That doesn't compensate nearly, I'm man enough to admit that I don't know much about this topic but I am aware that it does not compensate and all of the continents are certinly not old lava.

It doesn't save your long age theory.

There is so much clear and valid evidence for the theory of plate tectonics it is unbelievable. As for the age of the Earth, well. i direct you to the work of Clair Patterson. It is pretty hard to say, looking at his work, that the earth is not old. 4550 million years give or take 70 million, in fact.

Science + Religion = what the hell?

We aren't ready, that is why we can't understand. In the afterlife we will understand, but God had a plan for us and we rather took our own plan and we screwed up. Who knows how things would have went or what God had in plan for us. Perhaps we were supposed to understand.

That really doesn't mean anything, you just made up a rule by taking a verse out of context and tried to apply it to creation. Remember, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" there was a beginning, He didn't create an already begun earth.

The number 7 is used often in the Bible along with things of a certain likeness. If you think that the entire creation story from every detailed sentence was written to contue a trade I think you are highly mistaken.

God already gave all the facts. The person just chooses to ignore them. You can either believe God, or you can't. But if he's the judge, nuts to you.

What are the facts then? Enlighten me.

You may be right. I wont dispute that. My problem is how you possibly claim God is just.

That's not a flaw in the christian faith. Something had to come into existance on it's own. Whether it's god, or the universe, something came to be without a cause. I personally don't beleive in god, but your argument is weak IMHO.

Agreed. Not only is it painfully weak and obviously the result of understudy, but it's also atrociously cliche.

It's stupid to argue with religion to begin with, but for goodness sake at least know what you're talking about before you try it!

What are the facts then? Enlighten me.

You may be right. I wont dispute that. My problem is how you possibly claim God is just.

Christians can easily claim that God is just because they define "just" and "right" BY God's will.

My problem with religion is Hell.
God makes man.
God makes me an atheist.
God damns me to eternal torment, for what he made me.
God is therefore the most unfair entity imaginable. Just and benevolent???!?!
God therefore holds all the cards and wins all the tricks.
I'd rather believe in nothing than this hypocrisy, brainwashing and threats.

God doesn't make any of us anything. we choose what we will be.

"Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." (2 Nephi 2:27, which can be located here http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/27#27 )

I'm done arguing for today, if you guys arent then e-mail me. KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

What are the facts then? Enlighten me.

You may be right. I wont dispute that. My problem is how you possibly claim God is just.
If you go to court, and say you didn't know the speed limit was 35, what does the judge do? He gives you a speeding ticket. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. The judge isn't going to go to every citizen and tell them the law, they have to find out for themselves. Because that's the judge's job. He determines if you have broken a law. He doesn't have to tell you what the law is. That's your responsibility.

To use unknowns to try to disprove such things disproves atheist theories which are laiden with unknowns first.

Atheist theories? And here all the atheists I've known have pretty much kept to themselves. Could you tell me about these atheist theories? I have never heard of them.

Agreed. Not only is it painfully weak and obviously the result of understudy, but it's also atrociously cliche.

It's stupid to argue with religion to begin with, but for goodness sake at least know what you're talking about before you try it!#

That statement is why I will never be religious, in a nutshell. Dont you realise the only way to improve things is by arguing against them?

If you go to court, and say you didn't know the speed limit was 35, what does the judge do? He gives you a speeding ticket. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. The judge isn't going to go to every citizen and tell them the law, they have to find out for themselves. Because that's the judge's job. He determines if you have broken a law. He doesn't have to tell you what the law is. That's your responsibility.

No, but he would be condemning me for speeding, something i should have known about. Why should i know God exists? Is there any proof? Is there any reason?

Depends on the plane you're using. In Euclidian geometry, sure, the earth is round. But what about in hyperbolic or elliptical geometry? Then we're quite flat. And you forgot the ether, the invisible thing that light moves through, the element science added...

And the "ether" is an old idea, just as the earth, air, fire, water was.

So there aren't any microbes and you do think with your heart?

#

That statement is why I will never be religious, in a nutshell. Dont you realise the only way to improve things is by arguing against them?

Don't you realize that the entire Christian faith is based on FAITH? You're not going to change their minds by arguing with them. It's totally pointless. They're going to have to decide for themselves... just as equally, athiests are going to have to decide for THEMSELVES whether to convert to religion.

I've grown up my entire life being taught as a Christian. My parents were Christians, I've been to church, I've even spent my entire high-school career at a private Christian school, and yet I've decided that I don't believe in the faith. Nobody could have persuaded me, because to be quite honest every argument I've heard against it sounds completely stupid to me. I don't call myself a Christian because I don't believe in a God as Christians do, and yet I refuse to call myself athiest simply because I'm embarrased to be associated with what I've seen of their community.

No, but he would be condemning me for speeding, something i should have known about. Why should i know God exists? Is there any proof? Is there any reason?

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's the entire purpose of the Bible and missionaries.

The idea of God just appearing is the same as the big bang theory when you really, really think about it.

EXACTLY, spot on.

No, but he would be condemning me for speeding, something i should have known about. Why should i know God exists? Is there any proof? Is there any reason?

Christianity for years has merely been a method to control the masses. Those times are fading away, but remnants remain. Hell is just a way of scaring people into joining the church. It has no relevance today. One most certainly does not go to hell for believing in God. God never stated such a thing.

And the "ether" is an old idea, just as the earth, air, fire, water was.

So there aren't any microbes and you do think with your heart?
Maybe all today's science is another ether? After all, the ether was created to explain how waves could move without a medium, until they discovered waves didn't need a medium. How do you know that there are microbes? Have you ever seen any? Or do you believe by faith what scientists tell you? Do you think at all (not a flame, gimme a sec)? Maybe when you were born your brain was designed to simply respond to actions in a certain way, which has been mistaken for thinking and free will. After all, your brain goes through conformational changes as you grow, maybe the computer is just updating itself? The fact remains that science is just the best guess of the day, not anything to place your complete trust into.

No, but he would be condemning me for speeding, something i should have known about. Why should i know God exists? Is there any proof? Is there any reason?
I can think of a book that you've probably never read. Have you ever read the murder statutes? You just assume from court tv and movies that murder leads to going to jail. Maybe your balls get chopped off. You don't know, because you haven't read the law, you just believe what people tell you.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's the entire purpose of the Bible and missionaries.
The Bible only says there is evidence, but it is simply the word of man, who lies a lot. With the big bang, and macro evolution, there is evidence that can be seen to suggest its truth.

Don't you realize that the entire Christian faith is based on FAITH?

True faith requires questioning. Anyone who cannot question their faith has none to begin with

The Bible only says there is evidence, but it is simply the word of man, who lies a lot. With the big bang, and macro evolution, there is evidence that can be seen to suggest its truth.
No, the Bible says that man wrote it as an extension of God's will. Maybe that's a load of crap. Maybe it isn't. If it is, good job, have fun in whatever afterlife there is or isn't. If it isn't, well, don't say no one warned you. It doesn't matter what anyone says, or what anyone proves, if the Bible is still right. You can disprove every line and every point it makes, but that doesn't make it wrong. If it is right, you're bound by it, if it's wrong, you are not. Same as anything.

True faith requires questioning. Anyone who cannot question their faith has none to begin with
Actually, Christianity teaches the complete opposite. You're not supposed to question God. You can't take secular platitudes and apply them to religious dogma.

The fact remains that science is just the best guess of the day, not anything to place your complete trust into.

Nobody ever suggested that "science" is unalterable fact based on truth, thats just what people come to believe. Science employes models to better understand and predict the processes that are occuring around us. Indeed, some modles used today are known for a fact to be significantly flawed, but are still used as they provide the best way of looking at certain thing in certain circumstances at the moment.

Maybe all today's science is another ether? After all, the ether was created to explain how waves could move without a medium, until they discovered waves didn't need a medium.

Which was progress...

How do you know that there are microbes? Have you ever seen any?

Yes, I have.

Or do you believe by faith what scientists tell you?

I am a scientist. I read papers and believe or disbelieve based on the evidence presented.

The only things I believe by faith are those which are fully outside the realm of science, such as the existence of a God and the guidance I get from said deity.

The fact remains that science is just the best guess of the day, not anything to place your complete trust into.

And much of Scripture was simply the best guess of the day, not anything to place your complete trust into - unless of course you believe in a fallible God with no qualms whatsoever about condoning objectively evil acts.

Nobody ever suggested that "science" is unalterable fact based on truth, thats just what people come to believe. Science employes models to better understand and predict the processes that are occuring around us. Indeed, some modles used today are known for a fact to be significantly flawed, but are still used as they provide the best way of looking at certain thing in certain circumstances at the moment.
Exactly. I respect science, I enjoy studying it. But science by its own admission is fallable. You don't have to believe all of it to believe some of it. Religion is the opposite, it's all or nothing.

No, the Bible says that man wrote it as an extension of God's will. Maybe that's a load of crap. Maybe it isn't. If it is, good job, have fun in whatever afterlife there is or isn't. If it isn't, well, don't say no one warned you. It doesn't matter what anyone says, or what anyone proves, if the Bible is still right. You can disprove every line and every point it makes, but that doesn't make it wrong. If it is right, you're bound by it, if it's wrong, you are not. Same as anything.

My point is that there is no reason to believe that it is right, whether it is or not.

Actually, Christianity teaches the complete opposite.

A bunch of *human beings* teach the exact opposite. Why should you listen to fallible human beings?

However, the fact remains that you cannot have faith in something that cannot stand up to questioning.

You're not supposed to question God.

Question faith =! Question God.

You can't take secular platitudes and apply them to religious dogma.

What is secular about *faith*?

Exactly. I respect science, I enjoy studying it. But science by its own admission is fallable. You don't have to believe all of it to believe some of it. Religion is the opposite, it's all or nothing.

Unless you're a mystic that is ;) .

Religion is the opposite, it's all or nothing.

Oh ye of little faith...

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.


Law of consevartion of matter- No matter can be created nor destroyed... learn some physics first

Which was progress...
Was it? An ether could exist outside our current power of instrumentalization, in which case science would be wrong. But that doesn't matter, what does matter is that science by its nature should be questioned. Religion by its nature should not be.

Yes, I have.
Have you really? Under a microscope? Have you ever seen a movie? Could be the same thing you know. You have faith that all a microscope is doing is magnifying something.

I am a scientist. I read papers and believe or disbelieve based on the evidence presented.
Did you watch the experiments occur? Do you belive the speed of light is rougly 300,000,000 m/s? What if they faked it? You wouldn't know, since you blindly believe them.

The only things I believe by faith are those which are fully outside the realm of science, such as the existence of a God and the guidance I get from said deity.
God doesn't exist outside the realm of science, unless you have a very, very poor understanding of what science is.

And much of Scripture was simply the best guess of the day, not anything to place your complete trust into - unless of course you believe in a fallible God with no qualms whatsoever about condoning objectively evil acts.
Apples to oranges. If God is infallible and almighty, then He could easily make sure the essence of Scripture was preserved. Scientists have no control over perversion of their findings.

Law of consevartion of matter- No matter can be created nor destroyed... learn some physics first

Excellent point, that a very good point indeed - I hadn't thought of that.

A bunch of *human beings* teach the exact opposite. Why should you listen to fallible human beings?

However, the fact remains that you cannot have faith in something that cannot stand up to questioning.
The Bible teachs the opposite. Jesus Himself said man should not tempt God. Unless you think the Bible is made up, in which case Christianity is meaningless. Do you actually know what faith means? It means believing in something that you can't support with evidence. It means believing in something that you can't prove. It has nothing to do with questioning.

Question faith =! Question God.
You don't know what faith means. That's why we're having this discussion. Faith means belief in something you can't prove. You can't prove God, but you can believe in Him. That's faith. If you question that, you question God.

What is secular about *faith*?
The Bible does not say to question faith, it says the exact opposite. Your statement is secular.

Law of consevartion of matter- No matter can be created nor destroyed... learn some physics first

Have you ever wondered how the big bang theory could occur if that is true?

Hmmm

Well perhaps the flaw isn't with Christianity but with Science?

Chew on that for a while oh children of the enlightenment.

Have you really? Under a microscope? Have you ever seen a movie? Could be the same thing you know. You have faith that all a microscope is doing is magnifying something.

Thats simply absurd, of course it is. Someone who makes the d**n things could prove that to you. Just because science relies on many people contributing in different ways and no one person can be 100% certain that they're all honest doesn't present a reasonable flaw. You could make a microscope yourself, look through it and I garentee you will see microbes.

Was it? An ether could exist outside our current power of instrumentalization, in which case science would be wrong.

Except that science does not claimed to have disproved the existence of any ether. It simply claims that an ether does not seem to be necessary, which is true.

But that doesn't matter, what does matter is that science by its nature should be questioned. Religion by its nature should not be.

If you are willing to bank everything in your life on what a bunch of fallible preachers tell you, by all means, go ahead.

Have you really? Under a microscope? Have you ever seen a movie? Could be the same thing you know. You have faith that all a microscope is doing is magnifying something.

And you have faith that you are even there. If we take faith to that level, we may as well not use the word at all, as it becomes completley irrelevant to any conversation.

Did you watch the experiments occur? Do you belive the speed of light is rougly 300,000,000 m/s? What if they faked it? You wouldn't know, since you blindly believe them.

Do you understand the concept of repeatability? The few scientists that have attempted to fake high-profile experiments have been shown to be liars by those who attempt to repeat the experiments. Nothing in science is taken on blind belief. Those things which I need, I repeat myself.

God doesn't exist outside the realm of science, unless you have a very, very poor understanding of what science is.

Do you really believe that science is there to measure the immeasurable? Do you really believe that science involves those things which lie outside the rules of the Universe?

What, pray tell, is science then? Do tell me, so I can explain it to all the actual scientists.

Apples to oranges. If God is infallible and almighty, then He could easily make sure the essence of Scripture was preserved.

Essence, yes. Detail - God could, but apparently has not. Of course, that has very little to do with what I said.

Scientists have no control over perversion of their findings.

Yes, because scientists never ever see the published copy of their work......

Have you ever wondered how the big bang theory could occur if that is true?

It's the opposite. It couldn't be true without it.

You could make a microscope yourself, look through it and I garentee you will see microbes.
You could. Maybe. Have you? No. What if I did make one and I didn't see microbes? Would your faith be shattered? No, you'd say my microscope was faulty. You have faith in science, I have faith in religion.

The Bible teachs the opposite. Jesus Himself said man should not tempt God.

Who said anything about tempting God?

Do you actually know what faith means? It means believing in something that you can't support with evidence. It means believing in something that you can't prove. It has nothing to do with questioning.

You were correct, all the way up to the last sentence.

You don't know what faith means. That's why we're having this discussion. Faith means belief in something you can't prove. You can't prove God, but you can believe in Him. That's faith. If you question that, you question God.

If your faith cannot hold up to questioning, it is not faith at all.

The Bible does not say to question faith, it says the exact opposite. Your statement is secular.

Where does the Bible say that human beings should not be sure that their faith is true?

You could. Maybe. Have you? No. What if I did make one and I didn't see microbes? Would your faith be shattered? No, you'd say my microscope was faulty. You have faith in science, I have faith in religion.

You underestimate. If I did that and found nothing, then I would carry the experiment out again in case, yes. But if still no result I would be very happy to prove something so fundimental wrong. I have faith not in science or religion, but myself. I am no athiest. i am a mystic, a scientist and a philosopher. I incorperate all aspects into how I interpret this world and hold on to none fanatically.

If your faith cannot hold up to questioning, it is not faith at all.

If one has true faith, who needs to question?

If one has true faith, who needs to question?

It isn't true faith if it cannot be questioned - it is simply blindly following the human being who told it to you.

A lack of questioning leads to worship of preachers and worship of the Bible, *not* true worship of God.

Where does the Bible say that human beings should not be sure that their faith is true?

Jesus is wandering through the desert and 'satan' tempts him to jump off a cliff because God would save him. He replies that god should not be tested. Would you like the paragraph number?

Except that science does not claimed to have disproved the existence of any ether. It simply claims that an ether does not seem to be necessary, which is true.
So what has it done? Said light moves by some mechanism we still don't understand. Science has no proof, it only has probabilities.

If you are willing to bank everything in your life on what a bunch of fallible preachers tell you, by all means, go ahead.
And you with your scientists. Of course, the problem is that if I'm wrong, meh, so I'm wrong; if you're wrong, you have slightly more eternal consequences.

And you have faith that you are even there. If we take faith to that level, we may as well not use the word at all, as it becomes completley irrelevant to any conversation.
If we take anything to some level it becomes irrelevant.

Do you understand the concept of repeatability? The few scientists that have attempted to fake high-profile experiments have been shown to be liars by those who attempt to repeat the experiments. Nothing in science is taken on blind belief. Those things which I need, I repeat myself.
Then measure the speed of light, if you'd be so kind.

Do you really believe that science is there to measure the immeasurable? Do you really believe that science involves those things which lie outside the rules of the Universe?

What, pray tell, is science then? Do tell me, so I can explain it to all the actual scientists.
I'm saying that science relies on things with boundaries, and religion does. Therefore, to disprove religion with science is the same as disproving the existence of solids using only liquids.

Essence, yes. Detail - God could, but apparently has not. Of course, that has very little to do with what I said.
Or with anything, since you seem to love tangents. The Bible is right or it is wrong, to have faith in it I have to assume it is right.

Yes, because scientists never ever see the published copy of their work......
Again, you're not listening. Of course they see what they write. They don't have control over what the media says. For instance, wearing the color white has a statistically significant chance of giving you cancer. Of course, the chance is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%, but what do you think the media is going to say? Wearing white increases your risk of cancer, and it does. For a better example, how about the difference between everything thinking that Darwin said we came from apes and what Darwin actually said?

Jesus is wandering through the desert and 'satan' tempts him to jump off a cliff because God would save him. He replies that god should not be tested. Would you like the paragraph number?

Which does not answer my question in any way - as I have said nothing about testing God.

It isn't true faith if it cannot be questioned - it is simply blindly following the human being who told it to you.

A lack of questioning leads to worship of preachers and worship of the Bible, *not* true worship of God.

I agree, but faith in the existance of God, pure and simple should not be questioned by the individual who holds the daith. It should stand up to ithers questioning it. Others should never question that fundamental. Being a mystic and scientist I constantly question myself, so you are playing to my ilk here.

Who said anything about tempting God?
Sorry, forgot you were an athiest. Tempting means trying God's patience, as one does when they ask for a sign.

If your faith cannot hold up to questioning, it is not faith at all.
Are you being willfully ignorant? Cause it's not cute. Faith is belief in something IN SPITE of questions, IN SPITE of counterevidence, IN SPITE of reason. If your faith doesn't hold up to questioning, then it's not scientifically sound. That doesn't mean it isn't faith. You're thinking that faith means something that it doesn't. If I assume love means hate, as you understand them, then my arguments would seem pretty stupid too.

Where does the Bible say that human beings should not be sure that their faith is true?
Jesus says multiple times that one should not ask for a sign from God. That one must believe in God no matter what. I could get you a chapter and verse, or you could just read about 3 random sentences in the NT. Probably do you some good.

Which does not answer my question in any way - as I have said nothing about testing God.

To question ones faith in God *is* to test God. God existes for absolute certainty in the hearts of His followers. Whether or not he is a physical force is secondary to this.

Which does not answer my question in any way - as I have said nothing about testing God.
You're asking God to suddenly appear and disprove evolution, to disprove the Big Bang, but above all, you're asking for evidence that God exists. God won't answer to that.

So what has it done? Said light moves by some mechanism we still don't understand. Science has no proof, it only has probabilities.

*shrug* And?


And you with your scientists.

I have never stated that any scientist, including myself, is infallible.

Of course, the problem is that if I'm wrong, meh, so I'm wrong; if you're wrong, you have slightly more eternal consequences.

Yes, I'm sure that God is going to condemn me to hell because I believe in Christ but have the sense to recognize that there are two separate creation stories in Genesis which contradict each other and thus must be meant as metaphor.

If we take anything to some level it becomes irrelevant.

Then why take it there instead of staying on the topic at hand?

Then measure the speed of light, if you'd be so kind.

I don't really have access to the equipment, as I work in a biology lab. Of course, since I work in a biology lab, the speed of light is rather inconsequential to my research.

I'm saying that science relies on things with boundaries, and religion does. Therefore, to disprove religion with science is the same as disproving the existence of solids using only liquids.

Religion is never disproven with science. Certain dogma may be, but the basis of the religion itself is outside the realm of science.

Or with anything, since you seem to love tangents. The Bible is right or it is wrong, to have faith in it I have to assume it is right.

And to assume it is absolutely infallible and right, you have to refrain from actually studying it. Do you really think that is true faith? Besides, why have faith in the Bible? I thought you were supposed to have faith in *God*.

Again, you're not listening. Of course they see what they write. They don't have control over what the media says. For instance, wearing the color white has a statistically significant chance of giving you cancer. Of course, the chance is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%, but what do you think the media is going to say? Wearing white increases your risk of cancer, and it does. For a better example, how about the difference between everything thinking that Darwin said we came from apes and what Darwin actually said?

I am well aware of what the media does with scientific data, which would be why I largely ignore it, except to complain about the BS they print every day. I think it would be a much better world if the media would simply shut up and stop delving into science at all. At least then there wouldn't be so many people out there with grave misconceptions.

You're asking God to suddenly appear and disprove evolution, to disprove the Big Bang, but above all, you're asking for evidence that God exists. God won't answer to that.

I have never asked for any such thing.

Why do you insist on making things up?

You're asking God to suddenly appear and disprove evolution, to disprove the Big Bang, but above all, you're asking for evidence that God exists. God won't answer to that.

Not in the way you expect, anyway.

True faith requires questioning. Anyone who cannot question their faith has none to begin with

I didn't say one shouldn't question their faith. One definately SHOULD. I'm just trying to point out how completely counterproductive it is of these silly athiests running about trying to convert people.

I have never asked for any such thing.

Why do you insist on making things up?
Then why don't you believe in Christianity?

I didn't say one shouldn't question their faith. One definately SHOULD. I'm just trying to point out how completely counterproductive it is of these silly athiests running about trying to convert people.

I thoroughly agree, athiests should mind their own business.

Sorry, forgot you were an athiest. Tempting means trying God's patience, as one does when they ask for a sign.

I am an atheist? Wow, you are *full* of misconceptions today. Care to try again?

Are you being willfully ignorant?

No, I am pointing out that only the weak of faith lose all faith if they are questioned.

Faith is belief in something IN SPITE of questions, IN SPITE of counterevidence, IN SPITE of reason.

Now you are making up your own defintions. Thousands of years of theologians would disagree with you completely.

If your faith doesn't hold up to questioning, then it's not scientifically sound. That doesn't mean it isn't faith.

If your faith doesn't stand up to questioning, you never truly had faith at all.

Jesus says multiple times that one should not ask for a sign from God.

And I ask again, who said anything about asking for a sign?

Then why don't you believe in Christianity?

Wow, now you demonstrate total ignorance.

I *do* believe in Christianity. Care to try again?

To question ones faith in God *is* to test God. God existes for absolute certainty in the hearts of His followers. Whether or not he is a physical force is secondary to this.

There is no certainty if it cannot hold up to questioning.

Of course, in the case of many, one's faith includes much more than simply the existence of a God.

Then why don't you believe in Christianity?

Be careful, you're starting sound like you're about to hit him over the haed with a large book. God, not Christianity. To believe in Christianity would be, mehtinks, a little sill. To follow the Christian faith would be better wording.

I didn't say one shouldn't question their faith. One definately SHOULD. I'm just trying to point out how completely counterproductive it is of these silly athiests running about trying to convert people.

Where did any "atheists trying to convert people" come into the conversation at all?

Where did any "atheists trying to convert people" come into the conversation at all?

When I typed out my very first post on this thread.

Wow, now you demonstrate total ignorance.

I *do* believe in Christianity. Care to try again?
You know what I'm asking. Don't be an ass.

Of course, in the case of many, one's faith includes much more than simply the existence of a God.

I'm simply pointing out that the foundation of faith is unquestionably existant, therefore *God* is also. Of course, things get more complicated after that.

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.

"Christianity" is not in and of itself a religion. It is a wide grouping of different religions. Some do believe in advancement, or improvement. There is at least one I know of that believes that man can evauntually become as god. NOt be god be like god. Others believe that at the end of this life you are automatticaly saved and become an angel. Others believe that, by and large, the human population will go to hell. Saying the Christian religion is like saying the European nationallity. There is way to much encompsed in to put them all the same. They all believe in christ, and as far as I know, they all belive the Bible, and those are about the only two universal tendancies.

There is way to much encompsed in to put them all the same. They all believe in christ, and as far as I know, they all belive the Bible, and those are about the only two universal tendancies.

True. They all follow the doctrines of *a* Bible.

Big Bang...God. Same thing really...innit.
It's amazing how close science is to religion.
We can't think of any reason as to why the Universe came into being, so we say it just happen, in a massive explosion of supreme and perfect energy where the rules we currently observe didn't exist.
Pretty similar to God creating the Universe really...it just appeared at a whim, going against all current laws of physics.
Oh...and to whoever created this thread...you are a bit of a loser really, if you think you've just magically come up with a refute of Christianity (or any other religion).
How about you try and come up with something no-one has thought of before?

Big Bang...God. Same thing really...innit.

Of course it is, they are different ways of looking at the same thing, niether of which, I might add, contradicts Physics.

"Christianity" is not in and of itself a religion. It is a wide grouping of different religions. Some do believe in advancement, or improvement. There is at least one I know of that believes that man can evauntually become as god. NOt be god be like god. Others believe that at the end of this life you are automatticaly saved and become an angel. Others believe that, by and large, the human population will go to hell. Saying the Christian religion is like saying the European nationallity. There is way to much encompsed in to put them all the same. They all believe in christ, and as far as I know, they all belive the Bible, and those are about the only two universal tendancies.

I disagree. It obviously is a religion...if you go along with your claim, then no religion is a true religion, as they all have something in common with one another...e.g., some form of over-arching power.
Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have more in common because they are all Abrahamic religions.

I think you could best apply your argument to sects within religions, eg. Sunni, Shia and Kurdish Muslims; Protestant, Catholic and Methodist Christians. In which case your point is correct, but one that has been agreed on for many hundreds of years.

I think you could best apply your argument to sects within religions, eg. Sunni, Shia and Kurdish Muslims; Protestant, Catholic and Methodist Christians. In which case your point is correct, but one that has been agreed on for many hundreds of years.

Ahh... the good old Nicene Creed - Such a stupid thing to go and do.

You forget orthodox Christians, a much larger difference.

Ahh... the good old Nicene Creed - Such a stupid thing to go and do.

You forget orthodox Christians, a much larger difference.

mmm...was just going for a few quick examples.

It is true though...Orthodox Christians and Catholics almost have themselves a separate religion - it's so divorced from other Christian sects.

Still, there's nothing wrong with variety - as long as it doen't start wars, which it often does. By the way, how does one get the "originally posted by ...." at the start of quotes?

You know what I'm asking. Don't be an ass.

I know what you are asking, and I answered it in kind. I am a Christian. You made the completely unfounded assumption that I was not because I don't agree with your personal version of fundamentalist BS.

Still, there's nothing wrong with variety - as long as it doen't start wars, which it often does. By the way, how does one get the "originally posted by ...." at the start of quotes?

Variety in religions will (sadly) always start wars :(

To get that thing, you either click the quote button at the bottom of the person's post you want to include, or do this:
{quote=Akka-Akka}paste / type quote here{/quote}

but with square brackets: [ ] instead of the curvy ones...and you're away!

happy quoting!

I know what you are asking, and I answered it in kind. I am a Christian. You made the completely unfounded assumption that I was not because I don't agree with your personal version of fundamentalist BS.

Now, now. He made a mistake, thats no reason to call someones opininions "fundamentalist BS".

Variety in religions will (sadly) always start wars :(

To get that thing, you either click the quote button at the bottom of the person's post you want to include, or do this:
{quote=Akka-Akka}paste / type quote here{/quote}

but with square brackets: [ ] instead of the curvy ones...and you're away!

happy quoting!

Excellent, thanks. Yes it is unfortnate people can't just accept others differences.

Now, now. He made a mistake, thats no reason to call someones opininions "fundamentalist BS".

The idea that the Genesis accounts, which clearly contradict each other anyways, are somehow both literal truth is fundamentalist BS.

And the assumption that someone who disagrees with you on one point holds any particular beliefs outside that range is much bigger than a simple mistake, it is pure bigotry.

Excellent, thanks. Yes it is unfortnate people can't just accept others differences.

It is. I'm a Christian, but I don't see myself as part of any of the various sects within Christianity, and neither does the Church I go to...although by having wine at Communion it does disagree with the sects that don't drink alcohol - although imo that's just down to personal choice, not a matter for religion. The Bible only says we shouldn't get drunk. At it says on a sign outside my local pub...'Everyone likes a drink, but no-one likes a drunk.' I think it's backing up the Bible there ;)

The idea that the Genesis accounts, which clearly contradict each other anyways, are somehow both literal truth is fundamentalist BS.

And the assumption that someone who disagrees with you on one point holds any particular beliefs outside that range is much bigger than a simple mistake, it is pure bigotry.

Alright, I'll agree with the second statement. Surely bigotry is a mistake in itself.
OK, people who take Genisis literally open themselves to scepticism very easily, but that doesn't make them, by defeninition, fundamentalist. That is encroaching on bigotry itself, is it not? unacceptance at least.

Still, there's nothing wrong with variety - as long as it doen't start wars, which it often does. By the way, how does one get the "originally posted by ...." at the start of quotes?

At the bottom of every message is a little thing that says "quote". Click on it, to write a message that quotes from what was said in that one. You'll be able to see the tags that generate it.

EDIT accidentally left something out.

It is. I'm a Christian, but I don't see myself as part of any of the various sects within Christianity, and neither does the Church I go to...although by having wine at Communion it does disagree with the sects that don't drink alcohol - although imo that's just down to personal choice, not a matter for religion. The Bible only says we shouldn't get drunk. At it says on a sign outside my local pub...'Everyone likes a drink, but no-one likes a drunk.' I think it's backing up the Bible there ;)

Yes, a reletively safe place to sit. I'm similar, but tend to lean to the eastern religions which I find fascinating (I'm 9th generation european Australian, by the way). Yes, I'd agree about the wine. Jesus often drank wine (I think - he at least offered it often).

OK, people who take Genisis literally open themselves to scepticism very easily, but that doesn't make them, by defeninition, fundamentalist. That is encroaching on bigotry itself, is it not? unacceptance at least.

Actually, taking the entire Bible (or at least the parts that they feel are "under attack") as absolutely literal is one of the main *requirements* to be considered a fundamentalist and the idea is, in and of itself, a fundamentalist doctrine.

While I admit that I have a tendency to have less respect for fundamentalists (just as I have less respect for neo-Nazis, mysogonysts, etc.), the term in and of itself does not represent unacceptance or bigotry.

My problem with the whole religion issue is faith.

It seems stupid to me. Why should you beleive something without proof? Why should some old moldy scrolls be considered proof of the existence of a greater power? Unless I can proove the existence of god, I have no reason to beleive in it.

Now... Your god is willing to send me to hell, just because I use the ability to reason, that you claim it gave me? Worse than that, it doesn't want to proove itself to me?

Sounds like a true god of love to me...

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

wow, I guess I'll stop having religon now, whats wrong with you? in my book if your not extremist or fundamentalist they're good ppl regardless of religon, so why do you want to piss off christians? I mean than what's explanation of the universes creation, and don't give me the big bang crap because where would the explossion come from by your logic?

Actually, taking the entire Bible (or at least the parts that they feel are "under attack") as absolutely literal is one of the main *requirements* to be considered a fundamentalist and the idea is, in and of itself, a fundamentalist doctrine.

While I admit that I have a tendency to have less respect for fundamentalists (just as I have less respect for neo-Nazis, mysogonysts, etc.), the term in and of itself does not represent unacceptance or bigotry.

True, but, in that case, fundamentalism has levels of severity. I may be displaying my ignorance here, but what exactly is mysogonism?

Now... Your god is willing to send me to hell, just because I use the ability to reason, that you claim it gave me? Worse than that, it doesn't want to proove itself to me?

Sounds like a true god of love to me...

Satan damns you to hell not God from what i've read he would only punish hypocrits and heretics

Eh...I'll play along

There are flaws in every theory...religious or scientific. The biggest flaw in Christianity is the closed-mindedness (that's a word right?) that doesn't allow for any improvement or advancement. That's why I only agree with the principles of Christianity (love, peace, goodwill..etc.) :) and not the, um...religion.

Is being closed-minded really a bad thing? I mean isn't anyone who's strong headed and stick to their beliefs closed-minded?

I think too often people associate "christian" with "closed-minded"

I tell people I'm Christian and automatically they assume I'm closed-minded.

My reply to this is simple. It's a belief based on faith.

Faith is believing in something without scientific proof. Science and faith sometimes coincides and sometimes doesn't.

You can't use science to prove or disprove faith.

Thank you Sarandra! *applause*

One more thing.

Why are people so ready to bash Christianity?

What about Judiasm?

What about Hinduism?

What about Buddhism?

What about any other religion in the world?

Why Christianity?

And before you call me prejudice and think I'm a horrible person, what I'm getting at is that we shouldn't be bashing any religion. Even if it is an acceptable thing.

I mean what exactly are you trying to prove?

Satan damns you to hell not God from what i've read he would only punish hypocrits and heretics

In my humble opininon, if an atheist (non practising) lives life well, there is no way he or she will be sent to hell. As for heretics, well that would include people of such purety as the Dalai Lama, for example. NO WAY is God (or anybody else) going to send *him* to hell. (Despite the fact that according to him, he'll be reincarnated) We'll just take the simple-minded notion that Christianity, specifically the Roman Catholic Church, is "True" and the Dalai Lama *does* one day find himself finally judged.

Okay, lets overview here. How the universe started.

There was nothing. No matter. No Energy. No Time. Because time is the relationship between one object to another.

Then something happens. Something no one seems to be able to explain. Big Bang Theory doesn't work out quite right. Where does the energy for the big bang come from if there was nothing? Complete and utter void cannot spawn matter or energy. Totally impossible.

The second reason that this is impossibe is that in such great heat and pressures, when the Big Bang took place, there should have been an equal amout of matter and anti-matter, which destroy eachother on contact, leaving nothing but photons in their wake. It's total Annihilation of both atoms, resulting in pure energy. Photons. Light. "And God said let there be Light"?

Now what does that leave us with? Probably, something had to effect the balance between matter and antimatter to a very vast degree, or nothing in the universe could exist save light.

So there must have been something there to effect the generation of the universe. Both to put the core of the Big Bang in the void, and to altar the generation of antimatter. The very fact that the universe exists at all is in and of itself miraculous.

One more thing.

Why are people so ready to bash Christianity?


Because christianity is frankly the most annoying religion. (not really their fault, there are just so many of them...)

It is a group of christians (albeit extremists... if you can call 51% of the U.S. extremists) who are all about denying rights to others based entirely on their own beleifs.

It is christians who are always being busybodies about others beleifs... Which has of course caused others to stand up and fight against that, which compounds the problem, because all groups are busy worrying about others beleifs.

It is christianity at fault for the horrors of the inquisition, and the blatant anti-semitism of Europe.

Christianity currently represents bigotry and oppression to everyone who has different beleifs.

One more thing.

Why are people so ready to bash Christianity?

What about Judiasm?

What about Hinduism?

What about Buddhism?

What about any other religion in the world?

Why Christianity?

And before you call me prejudice and think I'm a horrible person, what I'm getting at is that we shouldn't be bashing any religion. Even if it is an acceptable thing.

I mean what exactly are you trying to prove?

Probably because most of us come from Christian or Post-Christian societies and are a) More familiar with the flaws of the religion (I'm saying this in general, not representing my opinion) and b) are being careful about not seeming prejudiced by attacking other religions. Possibly people want to decide whether to adopt Christianity and want to test it first? The other thing is, how many Buddhists have slaughtered thousands of people for not believing exactly the same thing?

Christianity isn't a problem. It's just the Christians.

A lot of them anyway. I'm one of them after all.

"Lord, Save me from your followers!"

Christianity isn't a problem. It's just the Christians.

A lot of them anyway. I'm one of them after all.

"Lord, Save me from your followers!"

I agree entirely. Most Christians are fine. Some are a bit extreme, and over history have been taken advantage of by the church. As far as I can see, because the church has lost power, this is no longer a problem. Certainly in Australia, most Christians I have met are not simple-minded at all, quite the opposite. Some things do disturb me though, like the banning of Harry Potter books in a couple of schools.

It depends on how you exercise your beliefs. Do you attempt to spread the Lord's word to those who are in need of the Lord's spirit, or do you attemp to force it upon them? Do you practice tolerance towards other groups of people, or do you press your Christian beliefs on everyone and call everyone who doesn't agree with them wrong?

I am a Christian. I follow the Lord's word, and believe our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins. I am not going to argue about what's wrong or right. I'm going to read the Bible, pray that the Lord give me His guidance in my everyday life, go to Church, and practice my religion quietly. If someone is in need of the Lord's help and wants Him in their life, then I will help them.

I don't go around flaunting my religion.

It depends on how you exercise your beliefs. Do you attempt to spread the Lord's word to those who are in need of the Lord's spirit, or do you attemp to force it upon them? Do you practice tolerance towards other groups of people, or do you press your Christian beliefs on everyone and call everyone who doesn't agree with them wrong?

I am a Christian. I follow the Lord's word, and believe our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins. I am not going to argue about what's wrong or right. I'm going to read the Bible, pray that the Lord give me His guidance in my everyday life, go to Church, and practice my religion quietly. If someone is in need of the Lord's help and wants Him in their life, then I will help them.

I don't go around flaunting my religion.



I wish there were more people like you in the world...

It depends on how you exercise your beliefs. Do you attempt to spread the Lord's word to those who are in need of the Lord's spirit, or do you attemp to force it upon them? Do you practice tolerance towards other groups of people, or do you press your Christian beliefs on everyone and call everyone who doesn't agree with them wrong?

I am a Christian. I follow the Lord's word, and believe our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins. I am not going to argue about what's wrong or right. I'm going to read the Bible, pray that the Lord give me His guidance in my everyday life, go to Church, and practice my religion quietly. If someone is in need of the Lord's help and wants Him in their life, then I will help them.

I don't go around flaunting my religion.

There's nothing wrong with that, if all Christians (and Jews, and Muslims) had that attitude, the world would be a fabulous place to live (in a spiritual sense particularly).

There's nothing wrong with that, if all Christians (and Jews, and Muslims) had that attitude, the world would be a fabulous place to live (in a spiritual sense particularly).

I might also point out that that holds true whether or not you consider the world to have been created in 7 literal days or 50 billion years etc.

It depends on how you exercise your beliefs. Do you attempt to spread the Lord's word to those who are in need of the Lord's spirit, or do you attemp to force it upon them? Do you practice tolerance towards other groups of people, or do you press your Christian beliefs on everyone and call everyone who doesn't agree with them wrong?

I am a Christian. I follow the Lord's word, and believe our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins. I am not going to argue about what's wrong or right. I'm going to read the Bible, pray that the Lord give me His guidance in my everyday life, go to Church, and practice my religion quietly. If someone is in need of the Lord's help and wants Him in their life, then I will help them.

I don't go around flaunting my religion.
Do you believe non-Christians may be saved?

Do you believe non-Christians may be saved?

I don't know about CT here, but *I* don't think non-Christians need even come into the equation of how the Christian faith deals with death etc. Really, if you're a Christian, openly proclaim the fact, etc. and you live a horrible life according to Christian ethics and dont repent, then you may be destined for hell. The rest of us however, will be treated much differently depending on our beliefs. Just a thought.

I don't know about CT here, but *I* don't think non-Christians need even come into the equation of how the Christian faith deals with death etc. Really, if you're a Christian, openly proclaim the fact, etc. and you live a horrible life according to Christian ethics and dont repent, then you may be destined for hell. The rest of us however, will be treated much differently depending on our beliefs. Just a thought.
Sed Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

I don't know about CT here, but *I* don't think non-Christians need even come into the equation of how the Christian faith deals with death etc. Really, if you're a Christian, openly proclaim the fact, etc. and you live a horrible life according to Christian ethics and dont repent, then you may be destined for hell. The rest of us however, will be treated much differently depending on our beliefs. Just a thought.

The church after Vatican II said that people outside of the church can be saved. It eliminated the need for limbo.

I don't know about CT here, but *I* don't think non-Christians need even come into the equation of how the Christian faith deals with death etc. Really, if you're a Christian, openly proclaim the fact, etc. and you live a horrible life according to Christian ethics and dont repent, then you may be destined for hell. The rest of us however, will be treated much differently depending on our beliefs. Just a thought.

If there is just the one God - as the Christians believe in him - then everyone will be treated the same. If God doesn't judge some people because they don't believe in him, he's either not omnipotent, or is going against the Bible.

But in this world, each to his own - freedom of religious belief is in my eyes an essential - you cannot coerce someone into a faith.

The Roman Catholic dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus easily resolves this question.

The Roman Catholic dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus easily resolves this question.

And you post that in the arrogant knowledge that few people have read it why?
I don't see how it resolves the question, as I don't know what you're on about.

And you post that in the arrogant knowledge that few people have read it why?
I don't see how it resolves the question, as I don't know what you're on about.
They claimed that it was possible for non-Christians to be saved.

They claimed that it was possible for non-Christians to be saved.

It's a tough question really...easy enough for those who have rejected Christianity, but what of those who never knew of it...I don't know enough to answer that one.

It's a tough question really...easy enough for those who have rejected Christianity, but what of those who never knew of it...I don't know enough to answer that one.
Saint Francis Xavier answered this question:

"Before their baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, expecially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obliged to answer: there is absolutely none."
--St. Francis Xavier

Saint Francis Xavier is not God. It is God's choice and his alone to give judgement, no one can deal judgement in the same way, or say what a person's fate was. They don't know.

The keyword in the title of this topic is FAITH.

Definition(s) of Faith: 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs

Difintion of Belief: 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

See, Faith and Beliefs do not always need to be true, in fact I would be willing to bet that a good majority of all the worl's religions are "flawed" because all the holy books were written by men and men are inherently flawed, we lie, exaggerate, cheat, steal, decieve. And let's not forget that parts of the bible have been removed because of their content. And why not point out the flaws in other religions while we are at it?

Face it, niether side of this argument has any proof to support their theories, the bible can not be used as proof becuase that is what is under scrutiny right now, and none of us were around to see apes evolve into humans, if it even happened that way. We just have to have faith in our beliefs because as I have heard it put before, I don't care whether the bible is right or wrong, but believing in it helps me sleep at night so if that is the only good that comes out of being a christian so be it.

We just have to have faith in our beliefs because as I have heard it put before, I don't care whether the bible is right or wrong, but believing in it helps me sleep at night so if that is the only good that comes out of being a christian so be it.
wow. so the truth of something doesn't matter to you, as long as it makes you feel good? no offense, but i think that's pretty sad.

Wow, this thread is still on here. Stupid questions really do get the most responses. I'm not a Christian, but I know this is a loaded subject. To Christians, I don't really think there are any flaws, and that's all that matters. It doesn't matter what I think about their religion, unless they try to force it upon me...and I know that is because of prejudiced ignorant people, not the entire faith. Religion makes life easier for most people, so let them think what they want, whatever that may be. :)

Christianity isn't a problem. It's just the Christians.

A lot of them anyway. I'm one of them after all.

"Lord, Save me from your followers!"

I totally agree.

I agree. Christianity itself is not what people should attack. It's what some people make of it.

Yes people slaughtered millions in the name of God. But that's exactly it. PEOPLE did it.

PEOPLE are anti-semmetic not Christianity.

PEOPLE kill.

Do you blame the Muslim religion for the suicide bombings or do you blame the people who are actually doing it?

Because christianity is frankly the most annoying religion. (not really their fault, there are just so many of them...)

It is a group of christians (albeit extremists... if you can call 51% of the U.S. extremists) who are all about denying rights to others based entirely on their own beleifs.

It is christians who are always being busybodies about others beleifs... Which has of course caused others to stand up and fight against that, which compounds the problem, because all groups are busy worrying about others beleifs.

It is christianity at fault for the horrors of the inquisition, and the blatant anti-semitism of Europe.

Christianity currently represents bigotry and oppression to everyone who has different beleifs.

Christianity represents what it is.

It's the people who claim to be Christians that are annoying. NOT Christianity themselves.

It's all a misuse of religion.

I think it's interesting how so often you hear of people converting away from Christianity to some other religion, but how often do you hear of people converting TO Christianity from a different faith? Maybe it's just where I'm from, because in the SE U.S., everyone starts out as a Christian. I did. Fundamentalists seem to drive more people away than they bring in.

The Catholic Church was rapidly growing in converts up until the day the Masons took over.

True, but, in that case, fundamentalism has levels of severity. I may be displaying my ignorance here, but what exactly is mysogonism?

Mysogonism (maybe spelled wrong) is the belief that women are inferior to men.

Is being closed-minded really a bad thing? I mean isn't anyone who's strong headed and stick to their beliefs closed-minded?

No. Anyone who will not even listen to and consider other options is close-minded. If they are willing to listen and truly consider a point, but still come to the same conclusion, they are not close-minded - they are strong in faith. If they are not, they have no faith in the first place.

Faith is believing in something without scientific proof. Science and faith sometimes coincides and sometimes doesn't.

There is no reason to have faith in something which can be observed.

You can't use science to prove or disprove faith.

Depends on what you are having faith in. If you have faith that things generally fall up, instead of down, science can disprove this. If you have faith that taking a bath removes your immunities and you will die if you do so, science can disprove this. If you have faith that everything in the Universe revolves around the Earth and none of the other planets have satellites, science can disprove this.

If you have faith in what you *should* have faith in - a belief in God and salvation - science cannot disprove it.

Do you believe non-Christians may be saved?

If they repent for all their sins, ask the Lord into their life, get baptised, and start believing that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave His life so He could rid us of our sins, then yes, anyone can get saved.

You must commit yourself to Christianity, however, and you must talk and walk with the Lord everyday. You must be 100% submissed to Him, no reservations.

If they repent for all their sins, ask the Lord into their life, get baptised, and start believing that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave His life so He could rid us of our sins, then yes, anyone can get saved.

You must commit yourself to Christianity, however, and you must talk and walk with the Lord everyday. You must be 100% submissed to Him, no reservations.
So is that a yes or a no? Do they need to convert and be baptized Christian in order to be saved?

In my humble opinion, yes you do. You can't be saved if you don't believe in Jesus Christ and practice the Christian values.

In my humble opinion, yes you do. You can't be saved if you don't believe in Jesus Christ and practice the Christian values.
Good, then.

No. Anyone who will not even listen to and consider other options is close-minded. If they are willing to listen and truly consider a point, but still come to the same conclusion, they are not close-minded - they are strong in faith. If they are not, they have no faith in the first place.



There is no reason to have faith in something which can be observed.



Depends on what you are having faith in. If you have faith that things generally fall up, instead of down, science can disprove this. If you have faith that taking a bath removes your immunities and you will die if you do so, science can disprove this. If you have faith that everything in the Universe revolves around the Earth and none of the other planets have satellites, science can disprove this.

If you have faith in what you *should* have faith in - a belief in God and salvation - science cannot disprove it.

when i said faith, i meant the Christian faith...sorry i was unclear with that...

Many Christians are willing to listen. How come people automatically assume ur close minded when ur christian?

The Catholic Church was rapidly growing in converts up until the day the Masons took over.

Have you stopped taking your medication?

One flaw to start us out: Of "GOD" created humans, where did he come from. You see, it is a scientific impossibility for a being to exsist without ever being created.

Well I'm sure God is really worried about your theory. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by ClemsonTigers
If they repent for all their sins, ask the Lord into their life, get baptised, and start believing that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave His life so He could rid us of our sins, then yes, anyone can get saved.

You must commit yourself to Christianity, however, and you must talk and walk with the Lord everyday. You must be 100% submissed to Him, no reservations.


ok then, answer me this. If your god is so forgiving and all-merciful, then why is he saying that anyone who doesn't believe and follow his specific guidelines will be punished? I can't believe that someone that you worship and praise would punish others for being raised differently.

To answer that question, one must also realize that Jehova God is a holy God. A single sin or transgression makes you a sinner. For example, most murderers only killed one person, but that single act makes them a murderer. Also, it is written that God takes no pleasure in the punishment of another, the way it's all geared up is much like Newton's law, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. So for every offense, there is a consequence, for every decision made, a price will paid.

Originally Posted by ClemsonTigers
If they repent for all their sins, ask the Lord into their life, get baptised, and start believing that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave His life so He could rid us of our sins, then yes, anyone can get saved.

You must commit yourself to Christianity, however, and you must talk and walk with the Lord everyday. You must be 100% submissed to Him, no reservations.


ok then, answer me this. If your god is so forgiving and all-merciful, then why is he saying that anyone who doesn't believe and follow his specific guidelines will be punished? I can't believe that someone that you worship and praise would punish others for being raised differently.

It's not that God punishes them...if you live a life of sin then that sin acts as a barrier between you and the Lord, and then Satan grabs a hold of your soul and you go to a lake of fire to burn forever. Basically, one of two people will have your soul no matter what your beliefs. Jesus or Satan.

when i said faith, i meant the Christian faith...sorry i was unclear with that...

Which still defines very little. For some, "Christian faith" represents believing in God, that God sent Christ to die on the cross, the teachings of Christ, and that salvation is forthcoming (the main points of the religion).

For others, it means "whatever my preacher says the Bible says and everything in the KJV is absolutely, positively literal and has to be or the whole thing just falls apart."

The former makes sense, the latter is weak faith.

Many Christians are willing to listen. How come people automatically assume ur close minded when ur christian?

I am well aware of this, as I myself have listened to quite a few viewpoints.

However, many (in some places even most) Christians ((as well as members of most religions)) are very close-minded. Generalizations are usually founded in some truth.

It's not that God punishes them...if you live a life of sin then that sin acts as a barrier between you and the Lord, and then Satan grabs a hold of your soul and you go to a lake of fire to burn forever. Basically, one of two people will have your soul no matter what your beliefs. Jesus or Satan.


Thank god ill burn in hell, christ and heaven have so little interest..

On the other hand, like the other guy said, hell is full of the most interesting people :D

Thank god ill burn in hell, christ and heaven have so little interest..

On the other hand, like the other guy said, hell is full of the most interesting people :D

Too bad you'll be too busy suffering. :(

To answer that question, one must also realize that Jehova God is a holy God. A single sin or transgression makes you a sinner. For example, most murderers only killed one person, but that single act makes them a murderer. Also, it is written that God takes no pleasure in the punishment of another, the way it's all geared up is much like Newton's law, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. So for every offense, there is a consequence, for every decision made, a price will paid.

An eternal punishment has no purpose other then punishment for punishment's sake.

Your "god" is a cruel, unjust, evil deity.

I there's anything I believe in, anything that could ever exist...it's not him.

An eternal punishment has no purpose other then punishment for punishment's sake.

Your "god" is a cruel, unjust, evil deity.

I there's anything I believe in, anything that could ever exist...it's not him.

The reason you get punished is because you lived a life of sin so that prevented you from ever being able to talk to the Lord because there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. God wishes everyone would recognize the Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and He loves everyone no matter what they do...all you have to do is repent for your sins.

The reason you get punished is because you lived a life of sin so that prevented you from ever being able to talk to the Lord because there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. God wishes everyone would recognize the Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and He loves everyone no matter what they do...all you have to do is repent for your sins.

You didn't even touch my point.

Hell is eternal. Eternal punishment has no point. Prove me wrong. Until then, you're god is just one big cosmic asshole. Not a funny asshole. Not a cute asshole. Just an asshole. A really, really big one.

The reason you get punished is because you lived a life of sin so that prevented you from ever being able to talk to the Lord because there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. God wishes everyone would recognize the Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and He loves everyone no matter what they do...all you have to do is repent for your sins.

Is the Dalai Lama going to hell for not talking to the Lord (or recognising Jesus), or do you consider him to have spoken to Him through another medium?

Is the Dalai Lama going to hell for not talking to the Lord (or recognising Jesus), or do you consider him to have spoken to Him through another medium?

I honestly do not know the answer to that.

I honestly do not know the answer to that.

You're religion dictates that he is hellbound. Just to let you know.

Is the Dalai Lama going to hell for not talking to the Lord (or recognising Jesus), or do you consider him to have spoken to Him through another medium?

Personally, while I don't claim to know the answer for sure, I feel that the Dalai Lama follows God in another way.

Personally, while I don't claim to know the answer for sure, I feel that the Dalai Lama follows God in another way.

Ditto.

You're religion dictates that he is hellbound. Just to let you know.

I'm not sure about that. OK, he doens't recognise Jesus, but then, neither do the Jews. Surley the people of God aren't all due for hell because of this?

:headbang:
I would like to point out a couple flaws in many arguements i've seen on this thread.
1) God and science are not contradictory, they're complementary. Neither one is perfectly objective in our view on it. We are seeking the same truth, but in different ways.
2) Define "God"
3) There are only two possibilities about God: Either he exists or he doesn't, reguardless of any religion.
4) If God existed within the universe, then you would have a problem of Him being created, because concepts like time only exist within it.
5) I'm too tired to go on...

The only problem with the existence of a Christian God arises when you define him as benevolent, all powerful, and all knowing, because how could such a God exist? We can't force our puny wants on him, but it is a valid question; "The problem of suffering and evil"

:headbang:

If you wanna bash Christianity for being hypocritical, here, get something better because The Big Bang is equally unfounded. Like these:
http://www.evilbible.com/

The NS general forum is definitive proof that many young people (I'm assuming most of the people posting here are under the age of 30) have a deep seated need to know, or at least discuss, something larger than themselves.

Consider:

Atheists do not believe in God, so presumably matters of god, theology, and faith play no role in their lives. Yet, this bulletin board is replete with atheists and agnostics who repeatedly post threads about God, the non-existence of God, proof there is no God, and countless other threads about religion. I would imagine they do not believe in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy either, yet they manage to restrain themselves from posting about their existence or lack thereof.

Then there are the Christians, who are supposed to come to God through faith. Yet, here they are, hammering away in unison with their atheistic sisters and brothers about their endless proofs for God's existence. And while the Bible commands them to not make a show of their faith for the benefit of others ("...when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." - Matt.6:6), they just can't help demonstrating what good Christians they are and explaining how everyone else will go to hell. They love to point out how others misinterpret the Bible (I'm sure there will be a post about my own quote from Matthew, no doubt showing me the error of my way). You would think they would be content in their own faith and let God (or gods) take care of the lack of faith of others.

Internet Atheists and Christians. A match made in cyber-Heaven.

As infantile as you are, I'll indulge you. The word used in Genesis literally translates 24 hours. Now try reading the King James' version but replacing day with twenty four hour period. Gets kind of stupid and awkward doesn't it?
What about when we say "back in my day, we used to..."" The word "day", literally means a 24 hour period, or even the period between sun rise and sun set, but I'm speaking about more than just one 12-24 hour section of my life.

You don't think they used metaphors back then?

[QUOTE=Sarandra]One more thing.

Why are people so ready to bash Christianity?

What about Judiasm?

What about Hinduism?

What about Buddhism?

What about any other religion in the world?

Why Christianity?[QUOTE]

Because I live in the dregs of a Christianised society (no matter how far it has "fallen" it is still nominally Christian.)
Because certain sects wish to force me and other free thinkers to follow their particular world view.
Because the other ones are all so nice and polite and leave me to my own world view, without forcing theirs down my throat.

Basically any religion that doesn't actively try to convert people but sits there and lets me learn from them by setting a good example, and answering the questions I have without expecting me to believe them, gets a big thumbs up from me. The minute someone tries to force me to anything, I'm going to fight back.

Why is "god" so obsessed with my nether-regions?

If I was all-knowing, all-powerful and sitting on a cloud somewhere, I'd probably have better things to do than obsess over what some guy in the middle of the atlantic ocean did with his penis...

I'm not sure about that. OK, he doens't recognise Jesus, but then, neither do the Jews. Surley the people of God aren't all due for hell because of this?

I dunno about Jews, but I know that the bible is pretty clear on "no Jesus, no heaven"

If you don't believe in God you must believe in the "Big Bang theory", what created all of that mass that imploded?

See there you go, without you even knowing it, God could just be the mass that imploded, and thus, he DID create everything. No matter how you stick it, You can't explain the creation of the universe, it's just something that's always been and will be. That's what makes God quite a believable thing, sort of. Depends on your religion I guess. You can believe whatever the hell you want, I don't care. I borrow a few words from Homer Simpson: "A dude came a few thousand years ago, and most of us think he was magic, but some of you don't, and that's cool too, but we're probably right, amen"

An eternal punishment has no purpose other then punishment for punishment's sake.

Your "god" is a cruel, unjust, evil deity.

I there's anything I believe in, anything that could ever exist...it's not him.

To the contrary my friend, if there is an eternal heaven, there is an eternal hell. If there were an end to one, there would have to be an end to another. If heaven is for those who earnestly put their faith in Jesus for salvation in this life and that is eternal, then there is an eternal hell for those who rejected him.

Right... So then, what happened to everyone who lived before Jesus?

Obviously, none of them could have accepted him or his sacrifice, since neither had existed yet... So, do they suffer in eternal hell?

If not, then the rules changed... But, why would a God who says "I do not change", change the rules or his mind?

Consider:

Atheists do not believe in God, so presumably matters of god, theology, and faith play no role in their lives. Yet, this bulletin board is replete with atheists and agnostics who repeatedly post threads about God, the non-existence of God, proof there is no God, and countless other threads about religion. I would imagine they do not believe in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy either, yet they manage to restrain themselves from posting about their existence or lack thereof.
1. reasonable, sane adults do not believe in the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy, thus debating their existence would serve no purpose. however, we are all expected to swallow the idea that belief in God (for which there is no more evidence than the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy) is one that CAN be held reasonably and sanely.
2. i have yet to see anybody use belief in the Tooth Fairy as justification for passing laws that restrict my civil rights, yet God-belief is the primary reason given by the majority of people who want to take away my rights. i think that provides me with ample motivation to attack their core misassumption of their magical sky-daddy.

Once again to the contrary, way back when before Christ, people were deeply searching for God, a whole lot more than today. There were those that spoke with Him. Even better, He gave a whole list of laws found in the Jewish Torah, but even then, you had to go by faith in order to accept them. The sacrifice Christ paid on the cross was to be the last blood sacrifice.

For some reason, people have this fancy idea that they have rights. Most of the civil rights they they go complaining about that is prohibited by law with a moral standing is usually for their own good. Sure a lot of people argue that they're not hurting anyone except themselves but the problem is that is when they have to pay off the medical expenses because their ways has caught up with them, somehow, most of the time it's not their money that pays it but the government. Where does the government get the money? The taxpayers, taxpayers who work hard for a living, stay out of those vices because they know better than to trash their bodies for momentary pleasure and don't want someone to pay for them when they put themselves into some kind of trouble.

For some reason, people have this fancy idea that they have rights.

yeah, those nutty folks and their silly Constitution! them with their high-falootin' "reading" and "history." when will they learn?


Most of the civil rights they they go complaining about that is prohibited by law with a moral standing is usually for their own good. Sure a lot of people argue that they're not hurting anyone except themselves but the problem is that is when they have to pay off the medical expenses because their ways has caught up with them, somehow, most of the time it's not their money that pays it but the government.

you got some stats on that?


Where does the government get the money? The taxpayers, taxpayers who work hard for a living, stay out of those vices because they know better than to trash their bodies for momentary pleasure and don't want someone to pay for them when they put themselves into some kind of trouble.
so what you are saying is that everybody should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own bodies, as long as they don't expect the taxpayers to foot the bill, right? good! we agree! all drugs are now legal, prostitution is legal, all sexual orientations are seen as equally valid in all legal contexts, and we now can have adults acting like adults rather than having adults being parented by the government!

God didn't need to be created since He exists outside of time.

God didn't need to be created since He exists outside of time.
What a coincidence so does the giant milkshake that follows me around everywhere!

What a coincidence so does the giant milkshake that follows me around everywhere!

not really following you on that one, i know it's a joke, but i'm drawing a blank on the source...

not really following you on that one, i know it's a joke, but i'm drawing a blank on the source...
Source is my imagination ... :fluffle:

1. reasonable, sane adults do not believe in the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy, thus debating their existence would serve no purpose. however, we are all expected to swallow the idea that belief in God (for which there is no more evidence than the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy) is one that CAN be held reasonably and sanely.


1. There is evidence for God's existance. See the Bible

2. Why do you think the idea that there isnt a God is any more proveable than the idea that there is? Neither side can be certian.