NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?

EDIT: Since people don't read all the posts and keep missing mine, I guess I'll just edit it in right here.

Sweet Jesus.....nine pages in under one day. Wow. There are way to many posts for me to respond to individually, so I'll try to give a few general statements.

1) I'm not talking about Anti-Semitic sentiment in modern day, I'm talking about throughout history. As in a long long time ago. Right now I see many more races/religions getting it worse than Judaism is.

2) The Empire that I mentioned in the opening posted existed.......it existed.....okay, I can't remember its actual date right now. Or even the exact territory it covered. My source for this info, The Near East: 10,000 years of History (I think), is at home in Jersey whereas I'm at college in Pennsylvania. I'm heading home in a few weeks for Christmas break and I will make it a point to look it up then. Also, it was the largest at the time. Not the largest ever. Just like Romes Empire was the largest at the time, but right now it has been overshadowed many times.

3) I don't equate Israel (The nation) with the Jewish religion. Actions against Israel are not the same as actions against Judaism. Actions by Israel are not the same as actions by Judaism.

Keep talking! This is good!

Because you always stick your noses into everything.

(sorry, had to ... if you're offended by this, I suppose I'll delete it)

I believe th lack of trust in them developed during the Dark Age of Europe. At the time, the Catholic Church did not allow its members to loan money and put a interest on it. So, Jews were the ones to create "banks."

Puttting the lack of trust to people that loan money and want more in return, with the fear of other cultures created the trend.

Last time I checked bad stuff has been happening long before the Dark Ages. Hell, Hamaan had his Final Solution in ancient Persia.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?
You have the shortest name?

Last time I checked bad stuff has been happening long before the Dark Ages. Hell, Hamaan had his Final Solution in ancient Persia.
Maybe God wants to test his chosen people with problems every generation?

I believe th lack of trust in them developed during the Dark Age of Europe. At the time, the Catholic Church did not allow its members to loan money and put a interest on it. So, Jews were the ones to create "banks."

Puttting the lack of trust to people that loan money and want more in return, with the fear of other cultures created the trend.
Yep, so you had princes that took out loans, used Jews as tax collectors, and then fed the Jews to the wolves before paying back their loans, lovely ain't it?

Maybe God wants to test his chosen people with problems every generation?

A possiblity, yes, but I've noticed that most of the Anti-Jew actions in history have been more for the extermination/control of the Jews, with little effort to have them turn away from their ways.

Not all mind you, Hanukkah is about a Jewish rebellion against the Greeks who tried to force us to abandon Judaism, but most.

A possiblity, yes, but I've noticed that most of the Anti-Jew actions in history have been more for the extermination/control of the Jews, with little effort to have them turn away from their ways.

Not all mind you, Hanukkah is about a Jewish rebellion against the Greeks who tried to force us to abandon Judaism, but most.
I really don't know. It is hard to say why. If you go with the God approach you might add that the killing off of many Jews was a test to see if they would believe the G-man had forsaken them or not. I really don't know. It could just be a long series of horrible coincidences.

I really don't know. It is hard to say why. If you go with the God approach you might add that the killing off of many Jews was a test to see if they would believe the G-man had forsaken them or not. I really don't know. It could just be a long series of horrible coincidences.
Half-life has nothing to do with this conversation, unless you're implying Gordon Freeman's Jewish? :p

Half-life has nothing to do with this conversation, unless you're implying Gordon Freeman's Jewish? :p
It might be why the government is trying to hunt him down. Why else would they go after a scientist?

Well, rest assured, it's not always the Jews. It just may seem like it is. Don't worry, there's more than enough bitter ashes to go around.

Unfortunately.

Hmm. Maybe is it because they really are a chosen race? And that Jesus was born from the Jews.

So Satan hate them so much because the jews are blessed by God?

I believe th lack of trust in them developed during the Dark Age of Europe. At the time, the Catholic Church did not allow its members to loan money and put a interest on it. So, Jews were the ones to create "banks."

Puttting the lack of trust to people that loan money and want more in return, with the fear of other cultures created the trend.
Which is strange as the old testiment and I assume (having not read them) that Jewish religious text do, ban usury. So if that is the case how did it start and why does it continue?

Which is strange as the old testiment and I assume (having not read them) that Jewish religious text do, ban usury. So if that is the case how did it start and why does it continue?
A very good question. I believe the Catholic Church later revised their opinion on the matter and the Protestants never created such a law. I am not sure why the Jews would not though.

They seem to have a perennial tendency...

It's the little hats. Everyone's jealous.

But in all seriousness, I have noticed that the Jews have, historically, gotten more crap than most other ethnic groups. I for one hate anti-semitism, especially among Christians, who should realize that God chose the Jewish people to save mankind, that God incarnate was, in fact, Hebrew. It boggles my mind how people can have so much hate.

Because the world is and has always been filled with many many many stupid, ignorant, hateful and easily lead dumbasses.

The Jews invented modern day terrorism, they really do know how to makes friends.

The Jews are in no way completely innocent, no one is, every religion disliked and distrusted the other. Judasim just happens to be the little guy in religious affairs.

A very good question. I believe the Catholic Church later revised their opinion on the matter and the Protestants never created such a law. I am not sure why the Jews would not though.

It's not such a ban as a "negative mitzva". For example, if you eat kosher but work in a bank, then it's the same as the opposite, according to the torah.

Most jews in medieval europe resorted to this because they weren't allowed much else to do. It was either that, or fall back on the shtetl's micro-economy, living in their own ghetto and never going out of it.

The Jews invented modern day terrorism, they really do know how to makes friends.

The Jews are in no way completely innocent, no one is, every religion disliked and distrusted the other. Judasim just happens to be the little guy in religious affairs.

Congratulations on your eleventh birthday!

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?
I have a problem with Israel. Does that count as Jew-hating? No? Thought not.

EDIT: Okay, just read the post a little more thoroughly - yes, I think in the modern day, that some people confuse condemnation of Israel's actions with anti-Semitism. And I think that this doesn't help their cause - people moaning all the time about everybody hating them just pisses people off, and if they didn't hate them before, they do now. Just look at Manchester United.

The other point I want to make is the historical intraspective nature of the Jewish community. Attitudes towards Gentiles (non-Jews) can only have cut them off from other cultures, and made outsiders suspicious of them. I don't know how much of a factor this is, but I do think that historically many Jewish communities have looked down on others.

Again, though, that's more to do with how the community has behaved, rather than anything directly related to Judaism.

It's not such a ban as a "negative mitzva". For example, if you eat kosher but work in a bank, then it's the same as the opposite, according to the torah.

Most jews in medieval europe resorted to this because they weren't allowed much else to do. It was either that, or fall back on the shtetl's micro-economy, living in their own ghetto and never going out of it.
Thanks, that is really helpful information.

I still say it's my shortest name theory.

I still say it's my shortest name theory.
I see your logic - stupid people confuse behaviour of individuals with religious concept - stupid people can only cope with words of one syllable.

The cloister factor. Most suicidal thing to do in a species of xenophobes.

Humans can't stand things they don't understand. Jewish people form tight-knight, relatively exclusive communities, which you can't even convert in to normally (Only one gender can even MARRY in to it!). Thus, few can understand them.

Add to that: The same self-segregating group is highly self-promoting. They help each other as much as humanly possible, and not always in the most ethical way (Read "Defender of the Faith", a story about this sort of activity, written by a Jewish person who dared to point it out, ticking off the community as a result). They do not, as a group, do the same for others.

Worse: They're GOOD at it. This isn't like the mafia where everyone ends up shot. The Jewish community is very good at taking over economic sectors, and amassing wealth, and their conflicts are rarely so nasty as you get in most other cultures.

Especially annoying: They have very clean hands. The Jewish community tends to use their money and influence to get what they want. The WW2 issue is especially nasty here; its the opinion of many people that the Jewish people should have refused to give up their right to weaponry, and blasted any NAZI who tried to take it.

Throw in egomania: The Chosen People thing is just fricking annoying. People tend to resent being considered lesser beings.

This is, by and large, why the Jewish people tend to get mauled wherever they go. While, as individuals, they can be truly wonderful, kind, understanding, and, despite the official religious claim, unbigoted people. But the Jewish -community- looks like something out of conspiracy novels.

The only way for Jews to lose the "Other" factor is if the Jewish community dissolves in to individuals who happen to share a common background and faith.

If you make a society based on "Us/Them"ism, you're asking for people to return the favor.

We're humans. Period.

Simple. They were a highly successful diaspora. Diasporas often create suspicion and resentment especially if a number of members are either very poor (for example the Roma) or rich. The Jews are so far the only diaspora to fall into the latter category in a large number of disparate countries and so the success and wealth of Jewish individuals, with the power that entailed, has allowed a conspiracy theory to gain credence. I mean, who would believe a pan-Roma conspiracy theory, given their limited power in most countries? The conspiracy theory is really just a particular variation of the usual hostility to diasporas. If a number of Chinese businessmen rose to the same prominence as leading Jews then I'm sure similar attitudes would emerge. In protestant countries where Catholic businessmen are prominent you inevitably find papist conspiracy theories.

In short, it's human nature. It's common to suspect or even hate those who are different; if they then have a large network which in some way provides them with an identity separate from their host nation that suspicion or hatred is amplified. The only way to stop such theories, short of radically changing human nature, would be to stop Jewish businessmen from being successful. Not a price worth paying, IMHO.

Simple. They were a highly successful diaspora. Diasporas often create suspicion and resentment especially if a number of members are either very poor (for example the Roma) or rich. The Jews are so far the only diaspora to fall into the latter category in a large number of disparate countries and so the success and wealth of Jewish individuals, with the power that entailed, has allowed a conspiracy theory to gain credence. I mean, who would believe a pan-Roma conspiracy theory, given their limited power in most countries? The conspiracy theory is really just a particular variation of the usual hostility to diasporas. If a number of Chinese businessmen rose to the same prominence as leading Jews then I'm sure similar attitudes would emerge. In protestant countries where Catholic businessmen are prominent you inevitably find papist conspiracy theories.

In short, it's human nature. It's common to suspect or even hate those who are different; if they then have a large network which in some way provides them with an identity separate from their host nation that suspicion or hatred is amplified. The only way to stop such theories, short of radically changing human nature, would be to stop Jewish businessmen from being successful. Not a price worth paying, IMHO.
Have the Romgerry been discriminated against as often as the Jews, or did they come into existence after them?

becouse they refuse to except the savior

It used to be because the Jews were really really weak, unarmed, minority. Any half assed king in a spot of bother could point at the Jews and say it is them moneylenders fault, to divert attention from problems of the kingdom. Mob pogromise a few thousand, grows into a tradition.


That was then. Now Jews are not weak. Now it is a mix of old traditions, response to the Palestine ethnic cleansing and that Jews are associated with America.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world

When was that?

It has been said that the history of almost all of the Jewish holidays can be summed up succinctly: "They wanted to kill us; we won. Let's eat." With increasing anti-Semitism -- in Europe, the World Court attack on Israel, in the movie theaters -- it is a good time to look at the causes of anti-Semitism and what we can do about it.

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE a period of 1,700 years Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries.

Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."

Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."

Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."

Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."

Outsiders -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)

Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:

Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.

Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.

Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's rantings and ravings would not be taken seriously if he said, "It's the bicycle riders and the midgets who are destroying our society."

Deicide -- a) the Christian Bible says the Romans killed Jesus, though Jews are mentioned as accomplices (claims that Jews killed Jesus came several hundred years later). Why are the accomplices persecuted and there isn't an anti-Roman movement throughout history? b) Jesus himself said, "Forgive them [i.e., the Jews], for they know not what they do." The Second Vatican Council in 1963 officially exonerated the Jews as the killers of Jesus. Neither statement of Christian belief lessened anti-Semitism.

Outsiders -- With the Enlightenment in the late 18th century, many Jews rushed to assimilate. Anti-Semitism should have stopped. Instead, for example, with the Nazis came the cry, in essence: "We hate you, not because you're different, but because you're trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race with your inferior genes."

Racial Theory -- The overriding problem with this theory is that it is self-contradictory: Jews are not a race. Anyone can become a Jew and members of every race, creed and color in the world have done so at one time or another.

Every other hated group is hated for a relatively defined reason. We Jews, however, are hated in paradoxes: Jews are hated for being a lazy and inferior race but also for dominating the economy and taking over the world. We are hated for stubbornly maintaining our separateness and, when we do assimilate for posing a threat to racial purity through intermarriages. We are seen as pacifists and as warmongers; as capitalist exploiters and as revolutionary communists; possessed of a Chosen-People mentality, as well as of an inferiority complex. It seems that we just can't win.


If you want to know more about it (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm)

Well, I think that covers the topic well. Good information.

#32 - Where does the ethnic cleansing of Palestine work into this explanation?

When was that?
I was wondering that too, but I thought I'd just ignore it.

If you want to know more about it (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm)
See, it doesn't have my theory which is the only one that applies in all situations. The shortest name.

See, it doesn't have my theory which is the only one that applies in all situations. The shortest name.
And we still have not found the half-life connection...

Which is strange as the old testiment and I assume (having not read them) that Jewish religious text do, ban usury. So if that is the case how did it start and why does it continue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

While Jewish law forbids the charging of interest to another Jew, Jews are not forbidden to charge interest on transactions to non-Jews.

There's also the debate over whether charging ANY interest counts as "usury", or if it's just "excessive interest"- which then itself has to be defined.

Humans can't stand things they don't understand.

And I think your post does an excellent job of showing what things about Jews and Judaism people tend to misunderstand, often creating further cultural misunderstandings and/or antagonisms:

Jewish people form tight-knight, relatively exclusive communities, which you can't even convert in to normally (Only one gender can even MARRY in to it!).

I don't know where you heard this, but that's not true. One can convert to Judaism, and a convert of either sex can marry, since they are now Jewish. In terms of inter-religious marriages, only Reform Judaism (and possibly Reconstructionist) accept them as "binding" or will perform them, but these same denominations also accept patrilineal descent, so again, I have no idea what your "one gender" thing refers to.

The same self-segregating group is highly self-promoting. They help each other as much as humanly possible, and not always in the most ethical way (Read "Defender of the Faith", a story about this sort of activity, written by a Jewish person who dared to point it out, ticking off the community as a result).

Are you talking about Samuel Heilman's book? You do understand that his book was designed to examine a particular sub-group of Jews, right? The Israeli Haredim are not reflective of all Jews, or Judaism per se.

Throw in egomania: The Chosen People thing is just fricking annoying. People tend to resent being considered lesser beings.

Another bit of misunderstanding: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/chosen_people.html

This is, by and large, why the Jewish people tend to get mauled wherever they go. While, as individuals, they can be truly wonderful, kind, understanding, and, despite the official religious claim, unbigoted people.

What religious bigotry are you referring to?

But the Jewish -community- looks like something out of conspiracy novels.

But that's entirely dependant on what community- or communities- one is examining. They aren't all the same.

See, it doesn't have my theory which is the only one that applies in all situations. The shortest name.

Great theory and it works. Only people with a shorter name I can think of are the Fur, as in the tribe from Dafur, and they are kind of persecuted too.

If you want to know more about it (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm)

Why the Jews, which is the real source of that quoted piece (available as an "online seminar" here- http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/wtj01000.htm) is very intruiging. I remember finding it fascinating when I first encountered it several years ago. It's not without its own biases, though. Aish is a particularly active Orthodox outreach group that tends to be rather myopic in its viewpoint, and in considering historical evidence that may adversely affect whatever claim they are attempting to make. The author of the piece has a long-running feature on the Aish website documenting the several thousand years of Jewish history. His piece about the Jewish Enlightenment and its "fools" had me fuming.

In any event, let me just say that I think the piece asks some very important questions in regards to the standard "stock answers" as to "Why Antisemitism?", but its own answer seems no more helpful nor conclusive.

It does say something that while the biggest religious prejudice by far is against Islam, there are still so many Jews shouting, "Why are we so hard done to?"

Note, I'm not denying there's prejudice, but there does appear, to the casual observer, to be an excessive seige-mentality amongst some in the Jewish community.

Like I said before, moaning about how much everybody hates you all the time doesn't do much for you in the popularity stakes. Once again, I use the trivial example of Manchester United. Or even Arsenal in the last couple of years.

Celebrate your bloody culture, and stop being so bloody defensive about it.

It does say something that while the biggest religious prejudice by far is against Islam, there are still so many Jews shouting, "Why are we so hard done to?"

Note, I'm not denying there's prejudice, but there does appear, to the casual observer, to be an excessive seige-mentality amongst some in the Jewish community.

Like I said before, moaning about how much everybody hates you all the time doesn't do much for you in the popularity stakes. Once again, I use the trivial example of Manchester United. Or even Arsenal in the last couple of years.

Celebrate your bloody culture, and stop being so bloody defensive about it.

I don't get it. So, whenever anyone comes up to me and asks me why sharon is the same as hitler, I shouldn't tell them that I don't even live in Israel and have no ties to the "global jewish conspiracy" ? That I am not part of the jewish hive mind? You've never been really persecuted against, or you'd bloody understand it. I've been spit on by arabs because I dared say out loud I am jewish. I've been called "nazi" because I defend Israel's point of view.
Yet, we are the whining ones.

Spend ONE DAY with a star of david medallion around your neck, and you'll see that we don't moan, we just defend ourselves. ONLY ONE DAY!

I don't get it. So, whenever anyone comes up to me and asks me why sharon is the same as hitler, I shouldn't tell them that I don't even live in Israel and have no ties to the "global jewish conspiracy" ? That I am not part of the jewish hive mind? You've never been really persecuted against, or you'd bloody understand it. I've been spit on by arabs because I dared say out loud I am jewish. I've been called "nazi" because I defend Israel's point of view.
Yet, we are the whining ones.

Spend ONE DAY with a star of david medallion around your neck, and you'll see that we don't moan, we just defend ourselves. ONLY ONE DAY!I never said there's no prejudice, and never equated Israel's actions with Judaism. It's just that it's seen as (and rightly so) completely unacceptable to express anti-Semitic sentiment, yet people can get off much more lightly through expressing other prejudices. Also, many people can't seem to separate anti-Semitic and anti-Israel comments in their minds.

Yet, we are the whining ones.This is what I meant. Where the **** does the Us and Them come from? Everybody exposed to that kind of prejudice has it ****ing hard.

It does say something that while the biggest religious prejudice by far is against Islam, there are still so many Jews shouting, "Why are we so hard done to?"

Note, I'm not denying there's prejudice, but there does appear, to the casual observer, to be an excessive seige-mentality amongst some in the Jewish community.

Like I said before, moaning about how much everybody hates you all the time doesn't do much for you in the popularity stakes. Once again, I use the trivial example of Manchester United. Or even Arsenal in the last couple of years.

Celebrate your bloody culture, and stop being so bloody defensive about it.
How many people have the Jews beheaded lately? Or how many women have they circumcised? Or how many people have they stoned to death? I could go on and on. Really I could.

Or how many women have they circumcised?
???

I may not know my medical procedures very well, but what? I know there is the religious part to circumcision but maybe you could enlighten me.

EDIT: Nevermind. I looked it up. That is horrible.

How many people have the Jews beheaded lately? Or how many women have they circumcised? Or how many people have they stoned to death? I could go on and on. Really I could.
How many settlements have Muslims built a bloody great fence across lately? You see, I can play the same game as you.

I didn't say Jews were evil - where did I say that? And I never said Israel's actions were so because they are Jewish.

Rather than just say, yes, some nasty people are Jewish, but that doesn't mean that all Jews are nasty people, you immediately start saying how evil the Arabs are.

My point was just that Jews aren't the only people who are persecuted, yet some talk as if they are.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?Because the Jews are (allegedly) the offspring of those who brought the unholy cult of Yahweh into the world with all its nagetive effects on human behavior.
BTW when was there an empire that was the largest in the world? And who is "we" ?

???

I may not know my medical procedures very well, but what? I know there is the religious part to circumcision but maybe you could enlighten me.
They completely cut off the clit I believe. Youy could always google it and get the nasty details.

Because the Jews are (allegedly) the offspring of those who brought the unholy cult of Yahweh into the world with all its nagetive effects on human behavior.
BTW when was there an empire that was the largest in the world? And who is "we" ?
1. Way to be openminded about religous groups.
2. I don't know. It might be a reference to either a religous empire or the largestempire at the time it existed.
3. "We" would refer to his people, the Jews.

How many settlements have Muslims built a bloody great fence across lately? You see, I can play the same game as you.

I didn't say Jews were evil - where did I say that? And I never said Israel's actions were so because they are Jewish.

Rather than just say, yes, some nasty people are Jewish, but that doesn't mean that all Jews are nasty people, you immediately start saying how evil the Arabs are.

My point was just that Jews aren't the only people who are persecuted, yet some talk as if they are.
Ohhhhhhhhh a fence. Anything but a fence, and when they do it to try and settle the suicide bombing issue and make a complete end to it it ain't exactly bad now is it? You gotta play the game till the end if you wanna see who wins.

They completely cut off the clit I believe. Youy could always google it and get the nasty details.
Already did. Quite disgusted.

Already did. Quite disgusted.
There are many types of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM), and removing the clitoris is just one of them. It's all disgusting.

Ohhhhhhhhh a fence. Anything but a fence, and when they do it to try and settle the suicide bombing issue and make a complete end to it it ain't exactly bad now is it? You gotta play the game till the end if you wanna see who wins.Well, that's easy. Me. Because I have the intellectual brainpower to build a reasoned argument, whilst you clearly don't.

Well, that's easy. Me. Because I have the intellectual brainpower to build a reasoned argument, whilst you clearly don't.
Your argument
How many settlements have Muslims built a bloody great fence across lately?

My argument when they do it to try and settle the suicide bombing issue and make a complete end to it it ain't exactly bad Why noo, that isn't reasoned at all, and Half-life 2 was never delayed.

Um, no. Actually, my argument:

Rather than just say, yes, some nasty people are Jewish, but that doesn't mean that all Jews are nasty people, you immediately start saying how evil the Arabs are.

My point was just that Jews aren't the only people who are persecuted, yet some talk as if they are.Your argument:

How many people have the Jews beheaded lately? Or how many women have they circumcised? Or how many people have they stoned to death? I could go on and on. Really I could.Not really an answer to my point, is it?

And what the hell does Halo 2 have to do with it?

Not really an answer to my point, is it?

And what the hell does Halo 2 have to do with it?
Half-life 2, and I brought it up earlier and continuity is always a good thing.

Your original argument It does say something that while the biggest religious prejudice by far is against Islam, there are still so many Jews shouting, "Why are we so hard done to?"

My original counter-argument. How many people have the Jews beheaded lately? Or how many women have they circumcised? Or how many people have they stoned to death? I could go on and on. Really I could.
The point that I didn't think I had to outline was that there was a much bigger much more recent reason for the predjudice against Islam.

My original counter-argument. The point that I didn't think I had to outline was that there was a much bigger much more recent reason for the predjudice against Islam.
Well, why didn't you say that? That could have been a basis for reasonable debate, rather than just spewing hatred.

Once again though, you missed off the second half of my post. The second part qualified that I think this is a trait of some prominent Jews (not all), and that many people confuse condemnation of Israels actions, with anti-Semitism. Judaism and Israel are not the same thing.

I still think that celebrating who you are (without pushing it in others' faces) is a much better way to react than complaining you're hard done-to all the time (again, a trait of some Jews who sometimes are also the first to criticise others).

Well, why didn't you say that? That could have been a basis for reasonable debate, rather than just spewing hatred.

Once again though, you missed off the second half of my post. The second part qualified that I think this is a trait of some prominent Jews (not all), and that many people confuse condemnation of Israels actions, with anti-Semitism. Judaism and Israel are not the same thing.

I still think that celebrating who you are (without pushing it in others' faces) is a much better way to react than complaining you're hard done-to all the time (again, a trait of some Jews who sometimes are also the first to criticise others).
But the mental masturbation was fun. :p

But the mental masturbation was fun. :p
If you say so. :confused:

Halo 2 was better

Halo 2 was better
BLASPHEMER :mad: May you be relegated to being killed by the Combine for the rest of eternity.

BLASPHEMER :mad: May you be relegated to being killed by the Combine for the rest of eternity.
I liked both but I just thought it would be great to say it.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?
well, at the start judaism was the only religion, who believe in one god. islam and christians come thousand years later. when greek or rome or any other empire take lands, all the citizens had to believe in their gods. jewish refused, because we think on only one god. easily, we get more than 2000 years of hate.
now we continue to the christians. jesus come, have supporters, rome kill him and says that the jews fault. we get more hate. than rome become christian and we get huge religion that hate us!
than Islam created in saudia. muhamad conquerd the middle east, and in the way replace the religion for many people in the area. jews still want to stay jews, and the left aside, right between too many muslims. big mistake.
at the same time, there is dark age in europe. every one who don't believe in the christian's god suffur a lot. again the jewish is here, and they look different. so many anger go for us.
then europe had some revolutions, and they drop the religion aside. jews can study everywhere, live in the cities, and work in what they want. too bad, the nationalist think we try to steal their jobs,homes, and wifes. at last we get hitler and the holocust, even when other countries hate us in other way.
europe decide to put as in area they don't care about. they tell us go away to the middle east, and try to get state, so they can forget us.
now the arabs are'nt happy. their hate become large, and we some idea from europe, the antisemitism become huge.
now we had wars, terror, and great world who is against us.

we had only two benefits: USA, and the fact that nobody can to destroy us, after so many try.
whole history in few minutes.

europe decide to put as in area they don't care about. they tell us go away to the middle east, and try to get state, so they can forget us.
now the arabs are'nt happy. their hate become large, and we some idea from europe, the antisemitism become huge.
now we had wars, terror, and great world who is against us.

we had only two benefits: USA, and the fact that nobody can to destroy us, after so many try.
whole history in few minutes.

this explanation misses the whole zoinism movement and implies that jews were foced to go to palestine. Also who forced millions of palestinians into exodus.

Anyway the whole world is not against Israel. Anti-semitism is particularly strong with Arabs, that is about it.

Have the Romgerry been discriminated against as often as the Jews, or did they come into existence after them?

I have no idea, I was mainly just throwing them in since they were the first poor diaspora who sprang to mind. I do know they are currently treated poorly in a number of Eastern European countries and suffered under Nazi puppet regimes there but I'm really no expert

Tcherbeb: the article you posted seemed to be well argued but I'm afraid I became prejudiced against it as soon as I saw "the World Court attack on Israel" listed as an example of anti-Semitism. I would be interested to see how the author justifies this statement.

this explanation misses the whole zoinism movement and implies that jews were foced to go to palestine. Also who forced millions of palestinians into exodus.

Anyway the whole world is not against Israel. Anti-semitism is particularly strong with Arabs, that is about it.
about the world: maybe the world isn'nt against Israel but the UN, most of the leaders, and other who just want the arab oil and suppotr them for that is against Israel.

and about the ziunut: It was created by jewish who see all the hate against them and thought that state for jews is the only way to solve the problem. even that movement is what start Israel, most of the citizens on israel come to Israel only after the holocust. even then european wasn't let them back to their homes. europe maybe don't put jewish on rocket and send them to israel, but all their acts make the jewish choose between Israel and death.

Once again though, you missed off the second half of my post. The second part qualified that I think this is a trait of some prominent Jews (not all), and that many people confuse condemnation of Israels actions, with anti-Semitism. Judaism and Israel are not the same thing.

Okay, time for a quiet explanation. I'm opening a small parenthesis to demonstrate why anti-zionism is thinly veiled anti-semitism. Feel free to discuss, but not to cuss, thank you.

Over 2,000 years, the jewish nation has been scattered all over the world. Clearly, no country (apart from america) wants them. They are either dismissed in pogroms, ghettoed away in shtetls, or gassed.

So, one jew, who is totally and completely unreligious, Theodore Herzl, decides that the jews, not as a religion, but as a people, just need one place in which they can live without fearing oppression. He even arranges with a few heads of state for favorable opinions. Since everybody wants to get rid of us, let's go somewhere else! Notice the interesting similarity with the black star export company, which specialized in helping the rastafarian black diaspora in america to be shipped to ethiopia, arranged for funding directly with the KKK, and succeeded in gaining some funds for that goal.

The minute the declaration of Israel's (some will say "re-")birth is done, most of its neighboring countries, instead of saying WELCOME! HOPE YOU'LL LIKE THOSE LANDS WE SOLD YOU WILL BE OF USE!, what do they do?
At this point, Israel looks like this :
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/invade.jpg
Pretty small, eh? Yet that was too much for them.
Well, now this is Israel's! Pretty stupid to attack such a small country and losing that much terrain, eh?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/49lines.gif

Not to mention the "palestinians" who flee their homes to "make room for the slaughter, it's going to take only three weeks, when all the jews are thrown into the sea, you can get your homes back again", let's also talk about the jews, who keep whining about oppression.
There they are : http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/refs.gif

Okay, so, now that things get rolling, and the arabs get their asses regularly kicked, Israel grows economically, democratically, while her neighbours, instead of moving on, keep hating her. No wonder, Israel does quite a few unpretty things in order to defend herself. But never enough. Take Jordan's exemple : after one black september (google that), no palestinian ever DARED to stir anymore trouble in Hussein's country.

Now, we come to the interesting times. Israel faces suicide bombers. With clear slogans, hate propaganda aired on TV, written on children's schoolbooks, in every imaginable way, it is never against arab israelis, or black falashas, that it is aired, it is always against the black-coated, hat-wearing typical orthodox ashkhenazy-looking jew.
examples here : http://www.memri.org/cartoons/images/3_000116-.jpg http://www.memri.org/cartoons/images/2_000053-.jpg
More to be found here (http://www.memri.org/bin/cartoons.cgi?cat3)

Even more interesting are the ones in which Israel is equated with nazi germany. The caption on this one reads : 'It's a pleasure… the disciple had surpassed his tutors.' http://www.memri.org/cartoons/images/2_000052-.jpg
More here (http://www.memri.org/bin/cartoons.cgi?cat2)

Now, we get to the equalizing and justifications.

We have come to consider that any country with a nazi regime doesn't deserve to exist, right? We did away with Hitler, so why not with Israel? Since they "are the same", it would be common sense to get rid of it entirely.

Then, you equate bombing a bus full of teenagers, or a night-club, or pizzeria, with building a fucking wall. Damn, looks like the chinese were nazi's as well, since theirs is the largest ever built.
Why aren't other fences, not all built for security, in the world, ever discussed, then?

Why are suicide bomings righteous? Because their victims are jews.
Why are the other security fences or "apartheid walls" built all over the world not criticized? Because they are not jewish. (http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Fences.htm)

Now, please argue convincingly that, of all the countries in the world, the jewish one doesn't have the right to defend itself, and as such, doesn't deserve to exist, while all other countries in the world are free to do so, and tell me you're not uninformed or bluntly anti-semitic.

If the jews don't have the right to own a country, as much as they don't have the right to live anywhere else in the world, then they do not deserve to live at all.

Because that's the root of the problem, and you can spin it any way you like, it doesn't matter or change the outcome.

Long post, off-topic a bit, but I felt it necessary.

For anyone who on this forum ever said that a single Iraqi was justified in committing any violent act they felt was necessary to resist US occupation, I would say that they have to defend the right for Israel to do the same thing.

Of course, then they also have to defend a Palestinian's right to do the same thing.

And then, we find a lot of people, who would otherwise be fairly non-violent, in the uncomfortable position of defending wholesale killing.

Okay, time for a quiet explanation. I'm opening a small parenthesis to demonstrate why anti-zionism is thinly veiled anti-semitism.

I find that argument hard to swallow since there are various Jewish individuals and sects that are anti-Zionist.

<snipped history etc. Interesting but not particularly relvant to my argument>

Now, please argue convincingly that, of all the countries in the world, the jewish one doesn't have the right to defend itself, and as such, doesn't deserve to exist, while all other countries in the world are free to do so, and tell me you're not uninformed or bluntly anti-semitic.

If the jews don't have the right to own a country, as much as they don't have the right to live anywhere else in the world, then they do not deserve to live at all.

Because that's the root of the problem, and you can spin it any way you like, it doesn't matter or change the outcome.


The problem here is that you equate criticism of the current Israeli government with anti-Zionism. It isn't. Hell, I have Israeli friends who are highly critical of Sharon's policies.

I disagree vehemently with Sharon. He is probably up there on my top 5 most despised world leaders list. Why? Because he started this whole mess for his own political ends (why does everyone forget who it was who first stepped foot on the Al-Aqsa mosque?). In the process he has sent a country I admire and have a great affinity with (I've visited Israel on numerous occasions and like I said have a number of friends there) dangerously close to a precipice. Every single action he has taken up to the withdrawl from Gaza has only served to perpetuate the crisis. So, no, I will not support the current Israeli regime.

I would like you to explain to me how that makes me anti-Zionist.

Tcherbeb, if that is your real name, please do try to read my posts before disagreeing with them.

Please quote the section where I stated that:

1. Israel shouldn't exist.
2. Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.
3. Israel is the same as Hitler, so we should just get rid of it.

Particularly the last point - WTF? How could I compare a country with a person? We got rid of Hitler, not Germany, so that would be stupid reasoning.

I criticised the methods employed by the Israeli Government. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please don't resort to the following argument either:

"Blowing up buses is worse than building a wall deliberately across people's land to spite them."

The behaviour of both groups has been at times despicable, so let's not kid ourselves. The building of the fence may have been right in principle - I don't know - but the way they've gone about it is wrong.

The only way to start to solve the problems is to understand both arguments. Saying, "Well, they did this, so they're evil," without asking why they did it, isn't going to get you very far.

And don't give me, "Well, killing is wrong, so why should I understand that?" either. If that many people are blowing themselves up, there must be something wrong somewhere, and not just in their heads.

And no, I don't think the Jewish people have a "right" to their own country, just like I don't think any other race or creed has a "right" to theirs. Particularly in a location sacred to so many different religions.

How the **** does that make me anti-Semitic?

The problem here is that you equate criticism of the current Israeli government with anti-Zionism. It isn't. Hell, I have Israeli friends who are highly critical of Sharon's policies.

I disagree vehemently with Sharon. He is probably up there on my top 5 most despised world leaders list. Why? Because he started this whole mess for his own political ends (why does everyone forget who it was who first stepped foot on the Al-Aqsa mosque?). In the process he has sent a country I admire and have a great affinity with (I've visited Israel on numerous occasions and like I said have a number of friends there) dangerously close to a precipice. Every single action he has taken up to the withdrawl from Gaza has only served to perpetuate the crisis. So, no, I will not support the current Israeli regime.

I would like you to explain to me how that makes me anti-Zionist.

Because you know it isn't the aksa mosque he visited. It was the Kotel, the lamentations wall, the single most important jewish site in the world.
"Oh my god! Let's start a war because a jew visits a jewish holy site!"
Now, you're going to argue that one side says he went on the mosque's side, and the other says it wasn't, and that we'll never know. Nonetheless. He was only walking in jerusalem.

A jew walking in the street is as much an affront as a jew drawing breath anyways, to the PA.

But wait! This even becomes a moot point on Al-Safir, March 3, 2001 : "Whoever thinks the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon's visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong....This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat's return from the Camp David Negotiations" - Palestinian Communications Minister Imad Al-Faluji

Criticize all you want, but during fifty years, one terrorist dictator never offered peace. And he received pompous funerals in egypt and france.

/ Love the "I have <insert what you want to argue against, gay, jewish, black, whatever> friends and they agree with me" argument.
// I have 38421 billion million palestinian friends and they all think that I'm right.
/// see how stupid it looks?

I was wondering that too, but I thought I'd just ignore it.

I believe the period this is referring to is the reign of Solomon. Durring this time, the area of actual control was at its greatest and there were vassal states extending beyond the borders. This was also the hight of the financial and political power (the former section being military).

Because you know it isn't the aksa mosque he visited. It was the Kotel, the lamentations wall, the single most important jewish site in the world.
"Oh my god! Let's start a war because a jew visits a jewish holy site!"
Now, you're going to argue that one side says he went on the mosque's side, and the other says it wasn't, and that we'll never know. Nonetheless. He was only walking in jerusalem.

A jew walking in the street is as much an affront as a jew drawing breath anyways, to the PA.

But wait! This even becomes a moot point on Al-Safir, March 3, 2001 :

Criticize all you want, but during fifty years, one terrorist dictator never offered peace. And he received pompous funerals in egypt and france.

/ Love the "I have <insert what you want to argue against, gay, jewish, black, whatever> friends and they agree with me" argument.
// I have 38421 billion million palestinian friends and they all think that I'm right.
/// see how stupid it looks?
If you actually bothered to separate criticism of the Israeli Govt with Anti-Zionism in your own mind, then this would be a worthwhile debate, but you're just an idiot.

I believe the period this is referring to is the reign of Solomon. Durring this time, the area of actual control was at its greatest and there were vassal states extending beyond the borders. This was also the hight of the financial and political power (the former section being military).
Thank you Lenny. Nice name.

To answer the original question: Because it is deeply ingrained prejudice, traded from generation to generation over the centuries. There is no real reason, if you get fed soft racism over and over again, you will believe in yews being greedy, asians being not honest, russians being heavy drinkers drekcetera... Mostly such statement are followed by stuff like "Well, of course not all of them..." or "But i have a friend, who...", to show that the spwaker is not intolerant at all and indeed an enlightened individual, while he still harbors resentments.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?

Because they are Gods chosen people ... which makes them the most
hated by Satan of course

Tcherbeb, if that is your real name, please do try to read my posts before disagreeing with them. Sigh...


Please quote the section where I stated that:

1. Israel shouldn't exist.

Okay.

And no, I don't think the Jewish people have a "right" to their own country, just like I don't think any other race or creed has a "right" to theirs. Particularly in a location sacred to so many different religions.

How the **** does that make me anti-Semitic?

Comedy gold!

"Even though every religion and every ethnicity owns land and country, the jews should be the first to set the example and renounce to Israel, and spend their time in diaspora. They're much cuter in ghettoes, or when mildly tolerated. By the way, I don't hate jews."

Please don't resort to the following argument either:

"Blowing up buses is worse than building a wall deliberately across people's land to spite them."

Why not? You're the one equating building a fucking wall and launching rockets at civilians, blowing them up, etc. I like the "to spite them" addition.
Look at the list of walls I produced effortlessly, and debate that.
In Ireland, the wall actually solved problems.
Oh, Ireland is totally different because it's not full of jews and arguing for one and against another would only make you look like a total moron, right? Oh, wait.

And don't give me, "Well, killing is wrong, so why should I understand that?" either. If that many people are blowing themselves up, there must be something wrong somewhere, and not just in their heads.

"It's the victim's fault! See, THEY DESERVED IT!"

The only way to start to solve the problems is to understand both arguments Then do it, by all means. I mean, calling me an idiot whenever you run out of ARGUMENTS AND / OR FACTS wouldn't be the most sensible thing to do, right?
...
You know what? Nevermind. Keep wearing that che guevara / yasir arafat t-shirt. Every cool kid wears one.

Because you know it isn't the aksa mosque he visited. It was the Kotel, the lamentations wall, the single most important jewish site in the world.
"Oh my god! Let's start a war because a jew visits a jewish holy site!"
Now, you're going to argue that one side says he went on the mosque's side, and the other says it wasn't, and that we'll never know. Nonetheless. He was only walking in jerusalem.

A jew walking in the street is as much an affront as a jew drawing breath anyways, to the PA.

But wait! This even becomes a moot point on Al-Safir, March 3, 2001 :

Criticize all you want, but during fifty years, one terrorist dictator never offered peace. And he received pompous funerals in egypt and france.


You know what, fine. You justify Sharon all you want. I see a brick wall developing here pretty swiftly. I find the notion that Sharon was just innocently on a stroll and completely unaware of what would happen frankly laughable, but feel free to maintain it. And as for your description of Arafat, well, it's so biased as to not be worthy of comment. Arafat is clearly open for criticism but yours is just ostensibly one-sided.

Whether you agree with me or not is still a moot point, anyhow. I was more interested in how you argue that I am anti-Zionist.


/ Love the "I have <insert what you want to argue against, gay, jewish, black, whatever> friends and they agree with me" argument.
// I have 38421 billion million palestinian friends and they all think that I'm right.
/// see how stupid it looks?

Pardon me, but please do go engage in reproductive acts upon your own person. I'm not one to posit imaginary friends to support arguments, and I seriously resent your assumption that I am, but even if I were the point stands that there are plenty of Israelis who do not support Sharon's policies. If you won't take my word for it take the results of elections to the Knesset. There are still Labor and Meretz voters out there. Are they anti-Zionist and thus (in your mind, evidently) anti-Semitic?

Tcherbeb, you're not reading the post again. You fell right into my trap.

I said the Jewish people did not have the "right" to their own country. That's not the same as saying Israel shouldn't exist. I just stated that their concerns are no more important to anybody else's, so why should they lay sole claim to that plot of land?

The Jewish people have a "right" to be there, but so do Muslims. So do Christians, in fact. They all have Holy sites in that region. I just don't think that the Jewish people can lay sole claim to it. If that's anti-Zionist, well, fine, but it's not anti-Semitic. I just recognise that other people have "rights" too.

"It's the victim's fault! See, THEY DESERVED IT!"

Then do it, by all means. I mean, calling me an idiot whenever you run out of ARGUMENTS AND / OR FACTS wouldn't be the most sensible thing to do, right?
...
You know what? Nevermind. Keep wearing that che guevara / yasir arafat t-shirt. Every cool kid wears one.
Using bold typefaces when you run out of arguments could be construed as very sad too.

Where did I say, "It's the victim's fault."? I just said you can do more than denounce the actions. There are reasons for everything, and if you don't bother ever to try and understand them how are you ever going to solve a problem.

"Even though every religion and every ethnicity owns land and country"Are you sure about that?

well some of "you" do fookin' ridiculous things. like

"my great grandma was killed in auswitch, nevermind i never saw her for i was born about 40 years after she died, but still i want the german gov to pay me money for my great loss"

it's ridiculous! i hate it how some modern day jews are trying to leech money off germany for something that took place like 60 years ago, GET OVER IT!

one of the reason hitler wanted to kill the jews was becuase the jews where stealing money off germany.

this was about 20 years before ww2

well some of "you" do fookin' ridiculous things. like

"my great grandma was killed in auswitch, nevermind i never saw her for i was born about 40 years after she died, but still i want the german gov to pay me money for my great loss"

it's ridiculous! i hate it how some modern day jews are trying to leech money off germany for something that took place like 60 years ago, GET OVER IT!

Well let me slaughter your family, your friends family, pretty much every family and person you have met.

We'll wait a few years ...

Then you can GET OVER IT!

one of the reason hitler wanted to kill the jews was becuase the jews where stealing money off germany.

Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing...

this was about 20 years before ww2

Where's your source ? your warped mind ?

So I'll take it a band of 'crazy jews' wen't and stole money from the economy, so therefore Hitler wen't and decided to destroy everyone.

OK !

actully i seen many newspaper and documentery's on the subject. anther thing i learned is that hitler was tormented by the jews in WW1. lost his home to a jewish repoman or somthing like that. and the possibly that hitler could be a jew himself.

Oh God, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

actully i seen many newspaper and documentery's on the subject. anther thing i learned is that hitler was tormented by the jews in WW1. lost his home to a jewish repoman or somthing like that. and the possibly that hitler could be a jew himself.

Oke doke, well when you get a lovely REAL source for this, i'll take it into consideraton.

In the meantime. Ignored.

actully i seen many newspaper and documentery's on the subject. anther thing i learned is that hitler was tormented by the jews in WW1. lost his home to a jewish repoman or somthing like that. and the possibly that hitler could be a jew himself.

Name one newspaper or documentary. Name one.

There is a mountain of historical evidence, fully peer reviewed, that would count all of your statements to this point as false.

It is not always the Jews (plenty of other people have had their asses kicked around by history, i.e. the Roma or Gypsies), however, the Jews are a disproportionately literate people. They are a nation of writers.

You start kicking around writers and you are going to find yourself in a book or two. In the long run Baron Bulwer-Lytton's observation about the relative power of pens and swords is correct.

actully i seen many newspaper and documentery's on the subject. anther thing i learned is that hitler was tormented by the jews in WW1. lost his home to a jewish repoman or somthing like that. and the possibly that hitler could be a jew himself.
I do think you're right (EDIT: from what I remember, but I could be wrong) about Hitler having a vendetta (partly) because of personal experiences, but this hardly corroborates your initial argument (EDIT: which is completely outrageous)

Well let me slaughter your family, your friends family, pretty much every family and person you have met.

We'll wait a few years ...

Then you can GET OVER IT!

Dude it's not like some modern day 20-30 year old jew had too many friends or family members slaughtered back then now is it??

Using bold typefaces when you run out of arguments could be construed as very sad too.

Where did I say, "It's the victim's fault."? I just said you can do more than denounce the actions. There are reasons for everything, and if you don't bother ever to try and understand them how are you ever going to solve a problem.

Look, the rift between our point of views is way too huge.
You decide to justify terrorist actions, I don't.
I base my opinions on actual facts, you don't.

We're not gonna convince each other, so let's just leave it at that, and I, again, dare you to my previous challenge.
Which I doubt you'll be taking up the second you're no longer behind your magical "I'm invisible and anonymous" internet shield.

Dude it's not like some modern day 20-30 year old jew had too many friends or family members slaughtered back then now is it??

The fact of the matter is, these people should be ALIVE, so should their families, their children, their name.

Maybe i may not know any friends, but my grandparents, who narrowly escaped from Poland, have told of how many they have lost.

These people should still be alive.

Look, the rift between our point of views is way too huge.
You decide to justify terrorist actions, I don't.No I don't. I think it's despicable. I just think that it's understandable. Note that. Understandable. Not right. I just recognise that there's more to it than their being evil.
I base my opinions on actual facts, you don't.I can't argue with you on this one, because my initial argument was all about how Jews are seen, not about the actions of the Israeli Government. ie. That there is discrimination, but that other prejudices deserve to be put in the spotlight just as much.

The fact of the matter is, these people should be ALIVE, so should their families, their children, their name.

Maybe i may not know any friends, but my grandparents, who narrowly escaped from Poland, have told of how many they have lost.

These people should still be alive.

as should my grandparents who died between a war with soviet union and finland. soviet union started unjustified war and finland only defended its independence, which we never lost :) fu soviet union, couldn't even beat finland, a nation of 5 million people..
anyways you don't see me asking money off soviet union for the death of my grandparents, who i never knew or saw for i was born like 40 years after they died..

it's history and it has absolutely nothing to do with me or you, i'm not and neither are you entitled to any money for the great loss..

as should my grandparents who died between a war with soviet union and finland. soviet union started unjustified war and finland only defended its independence, which we never lost :) fu soviet union, couldn't even beat finland, a nation of 5 million people..
anyways you don't see me asking money off soviet union for the death of my grandparents, who i never knew or saw for i was born like 40 years after they died..

it's history and it has absolutely nothing to do with me or you, i'm not and neither are you entitled to any money for the great loss..

nice very well done, well i have lost family in ireland to british aggression, and i deserve money from great britian. Never mind the fact that they were killedin the late 1800's (gimmie) they should have been alive. blah blah blah but a very nice response Sarvikuono very nice indeed :D

actually there was i thing in the global mail a while back and some biography of hitlers youth which were mostly destroyed {saw the few remanents left on it on history chanel} and reserchers have done many studies. true this are only intresting possibilties why hitler snapped. i thought this would be an intresting topic to write about, but no matter what reseachers find Hitler had no reason to kill 6 million jews. that was over extatic.

srry if i afended any one with these facts.

as should my grandparents who died between a war with soviet union and finland. soviet union started unjustified war and finland only defended its independence, which we never lost :) fu soviet union, couldn't even beat finland, a nation of 5 million people..
anyways you don't see me asking money off soviet union for the death of my grandparents, who i never knew or saw for i was born like 40 years after they died..

it's history and it has absolutely nothing to do with me or you, i'm not and neither are you entitled to any money for the great loss..

I don't try and claim money, you say we claim we shouldn't claim money, you wanna tell that to the decendants of black slaves in the U.S who are claiming money ?

Tell it to the Jews who lost 6 million people, and hell, start campaigning if you want the money, if not, shut up.

I'm not sure what's up with your fan club below, he can try and claim if he feels, he'll probably fail but hey.

I'm not asking to be reinbursed with cash from the German government, all I ask is to get a little respect, not have people tell me to 'GET OVER IT', you don't see me making a deal out of your grandparents.

They take all the gold and people want it BACK~!


Who can say really, I would assume it has something to do with proximate causes regarding jewish people being viewed as 'strangers' and 'not like us.'

People tend always to do harm to the people considered least like themselves, and as jews have maintained a distinctly jewish culture over the years, they often find themselves in the role of the outsider.

srry if i afended any one with these facts.

It's ok, don't worry, just a little sensitive on this subject (naturally).

Maybe they are true, maybe not, no-one knows why Hitler had such a grudge, we will probably never know.

I don't try and claim money, you say we claim we shouldn't claim money, you wanna tell that to the decendants of black slaves in the U.S who are claiming money ?

Tell it to the Jews who lost 6 million people, and hell, start campaigning if you want the money, if not, shut up.

I'm not sure what's up with your fan club below, he can try and claim if he feels, he'll probably fail but hey.

I'm not asking to be reinbursed with cash from the German government, all I ask is to get a little respect, not have people tell me to 'GET OVER IT', you don't see me making a deal out of your grandparents.
And why is your loss any more difficult to take than his?

And why is your loss any more difficult to take than his?

I didn't say it wasn't, both tragic.

But if he want's to have something payed back to him, he can campaign like we did.

quote: World wide allies
Maybe they are true, maybe not, no-one knows why Hitler had such a grudge, we will probably never know.


True true {i dont't know how to quote}

The fact of the matter is, these people should be ALIVE, so should their families, their children, their name.

Maybe i may not know any friends, but my grandparents, who narrowly escaped from Poland, have told of how many they have lost.

These people should still be alive.


A great many people should be alive.

Millions of people die each year from things that america could prevent.

We are, therefore, culpable in their deaths because of our decision to be materlialistic and avaricious.

Death is a fact of life, and the only option people have is to move on.

quote: World wide allies
Maybe they are true, maybe not, no-one knows why Hitler had such a grudge, we will probably never know.


True true {i dont't know how to quote}

Just press the little button on the bottom right hand corner of the post where it has an Icon saying "Quote", and quote away :D.

Or use [ Quote ] [ /Quote ] (minus the gaps heh).

A great many people should be alive.

Millions of people die each year from things that america could prevent.

We are, therefore, culpable in their deaths because of our decision to be materlialistic and avaricious.

Death is a fact of life, and the only option people have is to move on.

Aye, true.

But the Americans don't prevent, while the Nazi's caused, there's a difference.

Just press the little button on the bottom right hand corner of the post where it has an Icon saying "Quote", and quote away :D.

Or use .

thanks

I didn't say it wasn't, both tragic.

But if he want's to have something payed back to him, he can campaign like we did.
Oh, okay. You type like you're shouting, that's all. He said he doesn't want money.

Luckily I've never lost anyone to war, but I'd like to think I'd lay things to rest (though not forget), once the perpetrators had also been and gone.

Oh, okay. You type like you're shouting, that's all. He said he doesn't want money.

Luckily I've never lost anyone to war, but I'd like to think I'd lay things to rest (though not forget), once the perpetrators had also been and gone.

No worries, and yeah he said he didn't want the money, but he could campaign for it if he did.

Same for me, I have the potential to recieve money, but i'd prefer not.

And, that's lucky, it's rough. Anyway, not all the perpetrators are gone, still nazis about.

Aye, true.

But the Americans don't prevent, while the Nazi's caused, there's a difference.


The point though is that people are obligated to move on from tragedy, not dwell on it endlessly, regardless of its scope.

that was something i that was on the news a year ago was about a small town in a america {population probly less then 50} refused the rights of jews and black people to go through the town.

No worries, and yeah he said he didn't want the money, but he could campaign for it if he did.

Same for me, I have the potential to recieve money, but i'd prefer not.

And, that's lucky, it's rough. Anyway, not all the perpetrators are gone, still nazis about.I've been on this thread most of the day, and it's made me feel pretty drained. You say one thing about having more respect for people who just get on with things, despite everything, than for people who dwell on externally-inflicted problems, and suddenly you're an evil anti-Semite anti-Zionist bastard. Sorry if I was a bit short with you.

The point though is that people are obligated to move on from tragedy, not dwell on it endlessly, regardless of its scope.

I don't dwell on it, I just think it should be remembered as a horrible event, no-one should have the right to tell anyone else to 'Get over it', no matter how long ago it was, as it was life changing.

I'll go back to the civil rights movement, some black people today still feel the burns of the slavery and discrimination in the U.S.A. and that could be from anything to 30 - 300 years ago.

I've been on this thread most of the day, and it's made me feel pretty drained. You say one thing about having more respect for people who just get on with things, despite everything, than for people who dwell on externally-inflicted problems, and suddenly you're an evil anti-Semite anti-Zionist bastard. Sorry if I was a bit short with you.

Sorry, you've got me slightly confused ..

We're not gonna convince each other, so let's just leave it at that, and I, again, dare you to my previous challenge.

Yes, it's frankly disgusting when people just ignore other people's challenges.

On a completely unrelated note, I believe you were just about to explain why I am anti-Zionist...

This question is too easy to answer.

It's psychology. From the beginning when Judaisn and Jews first appeared they went out of their to differentiate themselves from their neighbors. The strict laws in Judaism about dress and keeping food kosher arose from their nomadic lifestyle and their inherent need to seperate themselves from pastoral societies that existed in the middle east when the original Jewish tribes arrived from central Asia.

The first conflict was with the Cannanites, farmers, who worshipped Gods of place (It wasn't the Jews who started monotheism, it was nomads in general, in early history every nomadic tribe had a single God that travelled with them, but I digress) the Jews eventually conquered them and established laws against the things Cannanites had in their society, as farmers they raised pigs, hence the Jews made pork un-kosher etc.

This need to continually distinguish themselves and set themselves apart made them perfect scapegoats whenever a large military power came around. In a time when it was fashionable to abandon your own beliefs and follow those of your conqueror (after his god MUST be stronger) the Jews didn't. They didn't abandon their beliefs for Assyria, Rome, Persia anybody, in fact they wouldn't even pay lip service to their conquerors Gods. If that doesen't bring on repression, nothing will.

Now, in the middle ages, when pogroms became fashionable the Jews actaully helped it along. Not purposefully mind you, but let's take a look. Diaspora Jews in mediaeval Europe went out of their way not only to religiously seperate themselves from others, but did so physically. Nowadays we think of a ghetto as where Jews were forced to live, but in medieval times Jews intentionally built their own seperate cities within cities, complete with dividing walls and their own security. They also used their usury prowess to blackmail rulers into making special laws exempting Jews from taxes and tribute when said rulers couldn't repay.


Now, let's say in the middle ages you live in a city, there is an outbreak of disease or famine and as you starve and waste away, the nice clean healthy Jewish quarter stands behind it's own walls filled with Jews exempt from taxes and apparently weel fed and disease free (a side effect of kosher food laws was hygiene, very helpful and scarce back then.) who would you blame? Too easy, blame the Jews they aren't suffering so they must have caused the suffering. At first local rulers would try and protect the Jews, to whom they owed money, but then they realized "Why am I protecting someone I owe, if they die, I don't owe them and I can take their stuff!" Bingo, institutionalized anti-semitism.

From there, European states as they developed either did nothing to discourage anti-semtism, or actaully encouraged it for their own gains. That continues today. It's always easy to pick on people that are different. Mormons, Alawites, Druze, Yezidi's are suffer from that same effect, but there are a lot less of them and the negative feelings never became institutionilized like ant-semitism did.

Most Neo-Nazi anti-semites would do well to do some research about their own alleged Aryan ancestry. Aryans were a tribe from central Asia that moved into northern India. Shortly after they moved into India, the Hurrians, nomads also from central Asia moved into the fertile crescent and the middle east, one of these Hurrian tribes was what we call today Jews. Anybody see the point here Aryan , Hurrian, get it? Jews today though claim that they were always distinct from Hurrians but I don't buy it, they both used the same indo-sanskrit language family, were both nomadic herders and both came on the scene from the same direction at the same time.

To sum it up, we all hate Jews because they are the different kid on the block and to make it worse they refuse to change to make the rest of us more comfortable, even worse they're very vocal and public about, and always have been.

For reading on these related subjects try:

Archaelogy and the Near and Middle East

History of the Pre-Roman World

and some other books I can't remeber, I have them around here somewhere....................

Now this is something I've considered for quite some time. While Christian by nature, any real poderences I have relating to Judaism's continuing suffering is rendered moot, however I feel that this is, in a sense, a trend. It has its beginnings long ago, when the world was a hostile enviroment, (not that is isn't today). People who suffered daily from malnutrition, harsh climates, fearsome animals, and warring tribes, would naturally begin to believe their plight extended from some universal plan. Enter the early polytheistic, (many gods), religions. Truth enough, the world was so vast, it made sense to assign countless deities to sire over each individual aspect of life, and to pray to them in times of distress. This sense of a realm beyond humanity, populated with thousands of gods and goddess', was very real to ancient man. Then came the Hebrews. While not the first religion to embrace the mandate of a single divine entity, it WAS the first to ever truly get a widespread following. Still, they were the minority, and as we all know, the world holds little tolerence for minorities. As such, they and their, "radical views," were persecuted to no end. Even after they had established themselves as a universally accepted religion, it became nou vouge to blame ones troubles on the Jews. It is merely a throwback to the times when Polytheistic rulers were fearful of the Jews growing power, played out in ever increasingly modern settings. With the advent of Christianity, this madness was doubled; the Jews were seen as the killers of Christ. Its simply the whole idea of an us vs. you feeling that permeates the globe. After all, in the begining, there were only two groups, the Pagans and the Jews, and unfortunately, being the smaller of the two, the Jews drew the short end of the stick for all eternity.

Sorry, you've got me slightly confused ..
ah, don't worry about it. have a good weekend

ah, don't worry about it. have a good weekend

Oke doke, thanks, you too !

To sum it up, we all hate Jews because they are the different kid on the block and to make it worse they refuse to change to make the rest of us more comfortable, even worse they're very vocal and public about, and always have been.

For reading on these related subjects try:

Archaelogy and the Near and Middle East

History of the Pre-Roman World

and some other books I can't remeber, I have them around here somewhere....................

So, you're an anti-semite are you? No wonder the worlds in the shape its in. What if someone asked you to change everything about yourself to make them more comfortable. Would you sacrifice everything you are to please them just so they only slash your tires 5 times a week instead of 7? I doubt it. Maybe you should consider the other persons plight, before condemning their ways.

That was sarcasm. I don't hate Jews, I don't hate anybody. I try and be objective. I was poking fun at society for expecting everyone to be the same and vote Republican. If you notice my entire post had little humourous tid-bits.

Check that, I hate people with no sense of humour.

Because the Jews are (allegedly) the offspring of those who brought the unholy cult of Yahweh into the world with all its nagetive effects on human behavior.
BTW when was there an empire that was the largest in the world? And who is "we" ?1. Way to be openminded about religous groups.
2. I don't know. It might be a reference to either a religous empire or the largestempire at the time it existed.
3. "We" would refer to his people, the Jews.1. I am openminded towards religious groups, but that does not mean that I support the views expressed in such groups. And the views expressed in groups worshipping Yahweh (i.e. Jews, Christians, Muslims, and their multitude of sects, past and present) are just not compatible with a world society based upon humanistic values.
2. There has never been a Jewish "empire". When would that have been? Ever since the Hebrews originally migrated to the Levant, they lived under the overlordship of others, except maybe for the reign of Salomon (who had close ties to the Egyptian royal court) when a relative independence existed.
3. OK.

BTW: I agree with those who argue that Judaism has always focussed on distinguishing Jews themselves from others. Their claim (as expressed in various scriptures) to define who is worthy before Yah and who is not has always been disturbing to others and especially to the religious groups that later developed out of the Israelite type of the Yahweh cult. Until Muslims and Christians fully accept that they are basically Jews too (because they worship the same deity), Jews will always be viewed as putting other Yahweh worshippers in the second row.

Aryans were a tribe from central Asia that moved into northern India. Shortly after they moved into India, the Hurrians, nomads also from central Asia moved into the fertile crescent and the middle east, one of these Hurrian tribes was what we call today Jews. Anybody see the point here Aryan , Hurrian, get it? Jews today though claim that they were always distinct from Hurrians but I don't buy it, they both used the same indo-sanskrit language family, were both nomadic herders and both came on the scene from the same direction at the same time.Could you be so friendly as to sort out in what times Aryans or Hurrians came to the Middle East ?

roughly between 9,000 and 11,000 years ago I believe, I can't recall right off the top of my head.

It is not always the Jews (plenty of other people have had their asses kicked around by history, i.e. the Roma or Gypsies), however, the Jews are a disproportionately literate people. They are a nation of writers.

You start kicking around writers and you are going to find yourself in a book or two. In the long run Baron Bulwer-Lytton's observation about the relative power of pens and swords is correct.
you know another religion or nation, that had attacked by almost every other nation or religion? for thousands of years? with every act? for almost any stupid and imaginary reason they can find? AND SURVIVED TO TELL THE WORLD?

we had more holidays for the times someone try to kill us and failed than every other else, and that without count the momorial days!!!

The whole "why is it always the Jews" thing seems a little narrow to me. If we're talking about groups that are the targets of persecution, it isn't always the Jews, but it does tend to usually be a highly visible minority.

So blacks in America from colonization up until the Civil Rights movement, Native Americans at any time, Christians in ancient Rome, Gypsies in Eastern Europe, Kurds in Iraq, Hassidim in Brooklyn, same-sex couples just about anywhere: These are all (or were all) readily identifiable minority groups. If the majority (Nazi Party, white landowners, whoever has the numbers and the power), wants to scapegoat somebody (German Jews) or exploit somebody for economic gain (slaves), they're gonna pick the visible minority.

With the exception of Isreal, which represents an unusual and sticky political situation, Jews have been persecuted under similar circumstances as other minority groups (the Germans packed gypsies and homosexuals off to the same concentration camps). So the question is "why is it always the minority?" Cause human nature has a thick streak of bully in it.

Sweet Jesus.....nine pages in under one day. Wow. There are way to many posts for me to respond to individually, so I'll try to give a few general statements.

1) I'm not talking about Anti-Semitic sentiment in modern day, I'm talking about throughout history. As in a long long time ago. Right now I see many more races/religions getting it worse than Judaism is.

2) The Empire that I mentioned in the opening posted existed.......it existed.....okay, I can't remember its actual date right now. Or even the exact territory it covered. My source for this info, The Near East: 10,000 years of History (I think), is at home in Jersey whereas I'm at college in Pennsylvania. I'm heading home in a few weeks for Christmas break and I will make it a point to look it up then.

3) I don't equate Israel (The nation) with the Jewish religion. Actions against Israel are not the same as actions against Judaism. Actions by Israel are not the same as actions by Judaism.

Keep talking! This is good!

you know another religion or nation, that had attacked by almost every other nation or religion? for thousands of years? with every act? for almost any stupid and imaginary reason they can find? AND SURVIVED TO TELL THE WORLD?

we had more holidays for the times someone try to kill us and failed than every other else, and that without count the momorial days!!!

Well, the Jews have not been attacked by "almost every other nation or religion." In fact most of the oppression of Jews has come at the hands of European Christians. Nor are they the only people to face percesecution. Certainly the Roma, or Gypsies, have faced persecution everywhere they have gone for the past five centuries and were also victims of the Nazi holocaust. The Armenians and Kurds have been harried and killed by the Turks (and others), with over one-and-a-half Armenians the victims of Turkish genocide in the early part of the 20th century. Also, Native Americans have a pretty strong claim to nearly 500 years of genocide, persecution, and oppression that caused some tribes to be wiped out altogether and almost resulted in the extermination of the entire race.

However, your larger point is accurate that the Jews have managed to maintain their culture and ethnic identity through centuries of oppression and hardship. I recommend a great book for those interested in learning more about the importance of the Jewish people in world culture called The Gifts of the Jews by Thomas Cahill.

In response to some post earlier, there are relatively few Jews who are anti-Zionist. Some Orthodox groups are currently against Israel's existence because they believe that Israel should only be created after the Messiah comes. There's also the self hating Jews, who think that they deserve anti-semitism and hate Israel. Finally there are Jews who are against the existence of Israel because they are morons who don't even understand Judaism, as a Jewish homeland is a big part of Judaism.

Arafat is clearly open for criticism but yours is just ostensibly one-sided.
This one gets the understatement of the month award.

one of the reason hitler wanted to kill the jews was becuase the jews where stealing money off germany.
...No, just no. He used propaganda such as what you stated to turn the populace against the jews, who were some of the most cultured people in Germany at the time. There was no "stealing".

Name one newspaper or documentary. Name one.

There is a mountain of historical evidence, fully peer reviewed, that would count all of your statements to this point as false.
Just remember kiddies, Hitler was both vegetarian and Christian.

i donèt know if this is true bu t i my friends told e he was against smoking and drinking

you know another religion or nation, that had attacked by almost every other nation or religion? for thousands of years? with every act? for almost any stupid and imaginary reason they can find? AND SURVIVED TO TELL THE WORLD?

we had more holidays for the times someone try to kill us and failed than every other else, and that without count the momorial days!!!

Again, gypsies.

Again, gypsies.
How long have they been in existence though?

Just remember kiddies, Hitler was both vegetarian and Christian.
bullcrap he was a Christian!!! In christianity you're meant 2 take the bible as the word of God and there is heaps in the bible about protecting and loving the jews. Adolf Hitler was a psycotic piece of crap. :sniper: He didnt have a care in the world about the jews, so he definitely wasn't a christian. Whoever believes this needs to read the bible more.

As from what the bible reads in revelation, id say that israel is under attack nowadays because the devil wants to exter :mp5: minate god's chosen people. It is only going to get worse and the whole world will end up hating the jews but God has promised to protect his chosen people so i don't think u have much 2 worry about

If you're ever in doubt about God's protective hand over the jews, research the six day war sometime. Its pretty interesting.

In response to some post earlier, there are relatively few Jews who are anti-Zionist. Some Orthodox groups are currently against Israel's existence because they believe that Israel should only be created after the Messiah comes.

Bingo. So anti-Zionism does not equal anti-Semitism. Equally, pro-Zionism does not equate pro-Semitism (some fundamental Christians are pro-Zionist because they believe that Zion is neccessary for the second coming at which point all Jews will, of course, go off to burn in hell). And opposing the current Israeli regime does not equal anti-Zionism (otherwise 25% of Israli voters would be anti-Zionist). Nor does supporting it equal pro-Zionism, regimes and individuals have supported Israel whilst being wholly neutral to the issue of Zionism. So the anti-Sharon = anti-Semitism argument is invalid.

im not sure if this was answered or not, i dont have the time to read every post but, durin the time the book of Kings were written The Jews, and Israel were the strongest country in the world.

there is an alpha blonde song that says:

From the bible to the koran,
revelation in jerusalem
Shalom, Salam Alekoom

I see Jews, Christians and Muslims living together in peace
Amen

let me hear and Amen!

As from what the bible reads in revelation, id say that israel is under attack nowadays because the devil wants to exter :mp5: minate god's chosen people. It is only going to get worse and the whole world will end up hating the jews but God has promised to protect his chosen people so i don't think u have much 2 worry about

...that's an interesting way of seeing things. (though deep inside I still hope you're kidding :rolleyes: :)

In response to some post earlier, there are relatively few Jews who are anti-Zionist. Some Orthodox groups are currently against Israel's existence because they believe that Israel should only be created after the Messiah comes. There's also the self hating Jews, who think that they deserve anti-semitism and hate Israel. Finally there are Jews who are against the existence of Israel because they are morons who don't even understand Judaism, as a Jewish homeland is a big part of Judaism.
Aha. So we get to the core of the issue. Are Jews a religious group or a people? What defines a Jew? His/her worship of Yahweh? Or his/her descent?

As from what the bible reads in revelation, id say that israel is under attack nowadays because the devil wants to exter :mp5: minate god's chosen people. It is only going to get worse and the whole world will end up hating the jews but God has promised to protect his chosen people so i don't think u have much 2 worry about

Assuming your Jewish, and assuming I used to be Jewish, I'll mention that the Jews don't believe in "The Devil." I personally think he was just invented so that people have someone to blame.

Posted by Jewmany--
In response to some post earlier, there are relatively few Jews who are anti-Zionist. Some Orthodox groups are currently against Israel's existence because they believe that Israel should only be created after the Messiah comes. There's also the self hating Jews, who think that they deserve anti-semitism and hate Israel. Finally there are Jews who are against the existence of Israel because they are morons who don't even understand Judaism, as a Jewish homeland is a big part of Judaism.

Morons?? Jewish, and all I see in Israel are extremists (on both sides). I do not support Israel (or a Palestinian state). To me it is simply a land of old traditions and tales...

Aha. So we get to the core of the issue. Are Jews a religious group or a people? What defines a Jew? His/her worship of Yahweh? Or his/her descent?

Who's Yahweh?

I define myself as a Jew not because of my matriarchal lineage but because of the cultural aspect. Like all ethnic groups and religions, we have a way of looking at the world. Plus all those Yiddish curse words are so fulfilling.

Technically, I don't believe in 80% of the stories the Torah tells, but loads of important morals are in there, and I'd like to explore Jewish mysticism.

Morons?? Jewish, and all I see in Israel are extremists (on both sides). I do not support Israel (or a Palestinian state). To me it is simply a land of old traditions and tales...


There is a fundamental difference between Israel and the Palestinians, if you study your history and background.

Palestinian schoolbooks teach children to hate Jews.

Extremists are extremists, but Israel is not an extremist state, merely a homeland. Just because one is American doesn't make them worship Ronald McDonald and blow up everyone else who likes Wendy's. No doubt Israel has made mistakes, but it is the only democratic country there.

80% of the Palestinian population agrees with suicide bombing, partly because their people suffer from lack of constructive leadership. And if you actually knew anything about Israel, its government is totally seperate from religion, so no laws are based on "traditions".

Interesting that the lowest strata of modern day anti semites sometimes hold jews responsible both for the evils of capitalism *and* socialism.


Because remember, communism is a 'jewish plot,' and without jewish bankers, capitalism is a nonstarter.

I see your point, but regardless, each society takes blame on both parts, and either both should inhabit the land or neither.

There is a fundamental difference between Israel and the Palestinians, if you study your history and background.

Palestinian schoolbooks teach children to hate Jews.

Extremists are extremists, but Israel is not an extremist state, merely a homeland. Just because one is American doesn't make them worship Ronald McDonald and blow up everyone else who likes Wendy's. No doubt Israel has made mistakes, but it is the only democratic country there.

80% of the Palestinian population agrees with suicide bombing, partly because their people suffer from lack of constructive leadership. And if you actually knew anything about Israel, its government is totally seperate from religion, so no laws are based on "traditions".



The fundemental difference is that one group uses one of the most powerful armies in the world to oppress the other. Only when this ends will the palestinians stop supporting suicide missions against the israelis.

Why is it always the Jews?
because people are assholes, but they're not creative about it.

The fundemental difference is that one group uses one of the most powerful armies in the world to oppress the other. Only when this ends will the palestinians stop supporting suicide missions against the israelis.

Is building a wall oppression? Is a checkpoint oppression?

because people are assholes, but they're not creative about it.

Agreed.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?

It the Jews fault :p

seriously though I think the Christians catch the most Flak in both the USA and Europe

Is building a wall oppression? Is a checkpoint oppression?

Missiles being fired into refugee camps is oppression. Mass arrests are oppression. Torture is oppression. Bulldozing houses is oppression.

Illegal occupation of gaza and the west bank is oppression.

bullcrap he was a Christian!!! In christianity you're meant 2 take the bible as the word of God and there is heaps in the bible about protecting and loving the jews. Adolf Hitler was a psycotic piece of crap. :sniper: He didnt have a care in the world about the jews, so he definitely wasn't a christian. Whoever believes this needs to read the bible more.
Okay, by that definition most christians aren't actually christians. By the definition of that is what he called himself and that is what most churches at the time had him pegged as and they cooperated with him. For all intents and purposes he was nominally a christian.

Its because people say the jews killed the jesus.
Actually the romans did.... :sniper: HEADSHOT

Missiles being fired into refugee camps is oppression. Mass arrests are oppression. Torture is oppression. Bulldozing houses is oppression.

Illegal occupation of gaza and the west bank is oppression.

torture?

And missiles aren't deliberately fired into camps to kill innocents. Israel's goal is to get the terrorists. Palestinian terrorist goals are to kill Jews. Period.

Bulldozing houses you took completely out of context. Israel has a tendency to bulldoze the houses of those who have been suicide bombers. What's Israel supposed to do? Say to the Palestinians that it's okay? Not saying I agree with it, but that doesn't equate with trying to kill innocents.

As for the west bank and gaza strip...those lands were offered to Arafat a while ago but he DECLINED. Why hasn't he followed the precedent Anwar Sadat set for the land for peace deal? Israel is willing to give back land for a promise of peace.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?

Because Jews have historically devoted themselves to learning and peaceful pursuits (like more studying), not military prowess. The right-wing zionists thought that would change with the formation of Israel, that Jews would get tough and stand up for their rights by means of arms. It's too bad things didn't go the way of left-wing zionists... They were cool...

torture?

And missiles aren't deliberately fired into camps to kill innocents. Israel's goal is to get the terrorists. Palestinian terrorist goals are to kill Jews. Period.

Bulldozing houses you took completely out of context. Israel has a tendency to bulldoze the houses of those who have been suicide bombers. What's Israel supposed to do? Say to the Palestinians that it's okay? Not saying I agree with it, but that doesn't equate with trying to kill innocents.

As for the west bank and gaza strip...those lands were offered to Arafat a while ago but he DECLINED. Why hasn't he followed the precedent Anwar Sadat set for the land for peace deal? Israel is willing to give back land for a promise of peace.

I will answer your generalization that "palestinians just want to kill jews" with the idea that according to israelis, all palestinians are terrorists.

Provide please sir, some evidence that the likud party has any intention of giving up israel's illegal holdings in exchange for a 'promise.' You are talking about the criminal settlements builders.

You are unaware that the mossad and shin bet tortures people? Hell, even the americans torture people these days.

i dont know but it seems to be an issult at my school to be called a jew (i hate those stupid nazi they didn't learn in WW2)

I don't try and claim money, you say we claim we shouldn't claim money, you wanna tell that to the decendants of black slaves in the U.S who are claiming money ?

Tell it to the Jews who lost 6 million people, and hell, start campaigning if you want the money, if not, shut up.

I'm not sure what's up with your fan club below, he can try and claim if he feels, he'll probably fail but hey.

I'm not asking to be reinbursed with cash from the German government, all I ask is to get a little respect, not have people tell me to 'GET OVER IT', you don't see me making a deal out of your grandparents.

well this is the fan club speaking as for whats up with me, hummmmm do you see me whining about how we lost family and such forth. NO as for the descendants of black slaves getting recompence for what happened damn near 100 years ago, it's the same concept. get over the past don't forget the past just don't demand that you should get special consideration for it, as for giving a little respect, well respect is something earned for something that was done, not something that happened to ancestors.

i dont know but it seems to be an issult at my school to be called a jew (i hate those stupid nazi they didn't learn in WW2)


You can make anything an insult. My students use 'gay' the same way....and they call me a nazi in the classroom...and I am jewish. whatever.

i dont know but it seems to be an issult at my school to be called a jew (i hate those stupid nazi they didn't learn in WW2)
It was an insult long before the nazi's sadly enough.

...NO as for the descendants of black slaves getting recompence for what happened damn near 100 years ago, it's the same concept...

Yes! Thank God! Someone with a head screwed on right!

Don't want to change the subject, but there are too many lawsuits today. I am in the Archdiocese of Boston, and the clergy abuse scandals are hitting us hard. Churches are closing left and right. Many people are staging sit-ins to keep their parishes open. Many are leaving. Because of these lawsuits, the chruch here is falling apart. yet the number of the "abused" keeps rising. They claim they are "coming out" for the first time. Since the church's credibility is gone, there is no way to prove that these people are liars. There is a cash cow to be milked, all you have to do is claim you were abused, cry a little, and grab money. Morals are gone. People are crashing this establishment, all for personal gain.

Sorry, I'm just pissed.

Jews have probably been persecuted so long because they stick to ther own customs. Jews don't adopt the culture around them. They didn't completely assimilate in to Germany, and they certainly don't assimilate into the Arab culture. Throughout history, every culture can't stand someone different.

I will answer your generalization that "palestinians just want to kill jews" with the idea that according to israelis, all palestinians are terrorists.

Provide please sir, some evidence that the likud party has any intention of giving up israel's illegal holdings in exchange for a 'promise.' You are talking about the criminal settlements builders.

You are unaware that the mossad and shin bet tortures people? Hell, even the americans torture people these days.

Note that I said Palestinian TERRORIST goals. I don't think I said anything near "all palestinians are terrorists". What I'm saying is that the only kind of leaders the Palestinians have are terrorists. If you think Arafat was a worthy "leader" you are delusional. I'm not saying Sharon is SqueakyMcCleanClean, but he's better than a total radical who's goal in life was to cease the existence of Israel.

Yes! Thank God! Someone with a head screwed on right!

Don't want to change the subject, but there are too many lawsuits today. I am in the Archdiocese of Boston, and the clergy abuse scandals are hitting us hard. Churches are closing left and right. Many people are staging sit-ins to keep their parishes open. Many are leaving. Because of these lawsuits, the chruch here is falling apart. yet the number of the "abused" keeps rising. They claim they are "coming out" for the first time. Since the church's credibility is gone, there is no way to prove that these people are liars. There is a cash cow to be milked, all you have to do is claim you were abused, cry a little, and grab money. Morals are gone. People are crashing this establishment, all for personal gain.

Sorry, I'm just pissed.

Jews have probably been persecuted so long because they stick to ther own customs. Jews don't adopt the culture around them. They didn't completely assimilate in to Germany, and they certainly don't assimilate into the Arab culture. Throughout history, every culture can't stand someone different.

Maybe the problem isn't the lawsuits, maybe the problem is the pedophilia.

I'm not trying to criticize your religion or anything, but priests can't have sex with women, can't have sex with men, so whadya expect em to do? Plus, many are attracted to the idea of being a priest because it gives them easy access to children. Instead of "dealing" with these lawsuits, maybe you should deal with the more important problem, like dealing with the pedophiles instead.

We were here first, and no one understands Judaism. Jews aren't cheap! We give more money than Christians.

Wow, people completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that anti-zionism isn't anti-semitism (and it is). I was just pointing out the reasons who some Jews are PRESENTLY against the existence of the state of Israel. I also probably shouldn't have said that the Orthodox Jews who are against a present state of Israel are anti-Zionist, because they are definitely Zionist, but just want the Messiah to come first. A Jew who is anti-Zionist is ignorant of the fact that Zionism is a major part of Judaism. Zionism is simply the idea of a Jewish Homeland. Unfortunately, people have twisted the term so that many people think that Zionism is bad, much like the way Liberalism is negative among people.

Jews need a homeland, and not just Israelis, but all Jews. When we were expelled from many countries over and over again, we had no where else to go, so we just had to go to a country, only to get expelled again. Finally, after the Holocaust and more expulsion, it was finally decided that active Zionism should occur to stop this terrible pattern, so the state of Israel was created. Exiled Jews finally had a home to return to where they couldn't be exiled from since they knew that they would be with Jews who wouldn't expel each other (which is why a Jewish majority is so important - and don't say that it's racist, because a Jewish majority is much different from a state where only Jews can come to. Israel is one of the most religiously tolerant countries in the world, and maybe THE most religiously tolerant). Now, if Jews get expelled from countries again (which also happened right after the creation of Israel from the surrounding Arab countries), they will be welcome in Israel. If Israel was available during the 1930s, the Holocaust wouldn't have happened because the Jews of Europe would've been welcome in Israel. This is why a Jewish homeland is so important. In the case that people become extremely intolerant in America (which I don't think will happen in America, but is already occurring in other countries) and mass anti-semitism spreads I'll always have Israel to go to.

Wow, people completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that anti-zionism isn't anti-semitism (and it is). I was just pointing out the reasons who some Jews are PRESENTLY against the existence of the state of Israel. I also probably shouldn't have said that the Orthodox Jews who are against a present state of Israel are anti-Zionist, because they are definitely Zionist, but just want the Messiah to come first. A Jew who is anti-Zionist is ignorant of the fact that Zionism is a major part of Judaism. Zionism is simply the idea of a Jewish Homeland. Unfortunately, people have twisted the term so that many people think that Zionism is bad, much like the way Liberalism is negative among people.


I understood your post quite well. I was simply pointing out what it said about the anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism argument, which is still invalid. However, following your post I think it's worth clarifying what Zionism means.

Zionism is literally, of course, the movement to create a Jewish state in Palestine. There are three ways of interpreting the belief behind this, as far as I can see:

1. There should be a Jewish state at some point. This is probably the view the opposition of which could most plausibly be claimed to be anti-Semitism. There are very few people outside of the Islamic world actually oppose this view, however.

2. The Jewish people have a right to a state. This view can legitimately be opposed without being guilty of anti-Semitism simply by denying that any group of people have the innate right to ownership of any piece of land, whatever their view. Note, those who take this line of reasoning would also deny the innate right of the Palestinian people. Those who oppose this line of reasoning only for Jews and not other peoples would be anti-Semitic.

3. The present Jewish state must exist. Opposing this view is certainly not necessarily anti-Semitic as is evidenced by the example of Orthodox Jews who oppose it.


So anti-Zionism can only plausibly be claimed to equate to anti-Semitism in the first case. I think you will find that in the Western world, at least, there are not many people who would argue that a Jewish state should not ever exist, however.

I understood your post quite well. I was simply pointing out what it said about the anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism argument, which is still invalid. However, following your post I think it's worth clarifying what Zionism means.

Zionism is literally, of course, the movement to create a Jewish state in Palestine. There are three ways of interpreting the belief behind this, as far as I can see:

1. There should be a Jewish state at some point. This is probably the view the opposition of which could most plausibly be claimed to be anti-Semitism. There are very few people outside of the Islamic world actually oppose this view, however.

2. The Jewish people have a right to a state. This view can legitimately be opposed without being guilty of anti-Semitism simply by denying that any group of people have the innate right to ownership of any piece of land, whatever their view. Note, those who take this line of reasoning would also deny the innate right of the Palestinian people. Those who oppose this line of reasoning only for Jews and not other peoples would be anti-Semitic.

3. The present Jewish state must exist. Opposing this view is certainly not necessarily anti-Semitic as is evidenced by the example of Orthodox Jews who oppose it.

So anti-Zionism can only plausibly be claimed to equate to anti-Semitism in the first case. I think you will find that in the Western world, at least, there are not many people who would argue that a Jewish state should not ever exist, however.

This is pretty incomplete, but you do make some efforts. Thanks for explaining to us jews, what zionism is.
Now, the second argument, has always been used as an argument against the Israelis. There are numerous cases in which territories are contested, but there is only one which is spoken of in the entire world, it's Israel. Constantly spit on by the media, it is then supposed to "set the example" and there's always the same, tired argument that "no-one is entitled to own land"... especially jews. I've never heard any of this leftist bullshit applied to any other people/ethnicity/country. That is why it is anti-semitic.

Third argument, just because even jews are not a huge hive-mind and are entitled to differing opinions, doesn't mean that most anti-semites are not anti-zionists, right?

Let's take an example from france, the beautiful, islamic country in which I enjoy dhimmitude. (I wish I was joking)
Right now is an interesting time to see many cultural changes happen to france. Anti-semitism is on the rise, and dramatically. There have been stories with benign effect. (for example, a jewish-born singer at a charity concert was "dirty jew! fuck israel!"ed off the stage, in front even of the first lady) There have been stories with immense effects. (hundreds of jewish tombs desecrated this year, a catastrophic number of agressions - the highest since the vichy regime in the early 1940's)
Anyways, jews make up about 1% of the population in france, while arabs represent 10%.
There is a political party called "Euro-Palestine" that ran last election, and happily, garnered only 1,8% of total votes, more or less. If your hate towards the state of Israel is strong enought for you to actually form a party against it, that garners more people *who are able to vote* than the total number of jews in that country, then it becomes pretty serious. Especially when there are no reasons whatsoever to import this conflict in france! I've never heard of a party formed uniquely for liberating sudan or the ivory coast. Or for protesting north/south korea, East Timor, Tibet, and the list goes on.
No, the hate can't be stigmatized on communists or capitalists. It's directly against jews. I mean, Israel!

Many anti-zionists often reply automatically "Oh, but no! I am not an anti-semite!" and give numerous reasons to "excuse" their anti-zionism. "sharon=hitler, the jews have become just like nazis, apartheid wall, and arafat was a man of peace." I mean, come on.

Anti-zionism is a legal facade for not being able to say "every last jew should die, and they do not deserve a country".

So this is what it looks like in france. Happily, I speak more than a few languages.

hope this helps.

Hello, China? I have something you may want ... but it's gonna cost you.

That's right, ALL the tea

i would have to question what is wrong with a people that are continually expelled from other countries....

i mean, really... that doesnt happen for no reason... :sniper:

Well, the Jews have not been attacked by "almost every other nation or religion." In fact most of the oppression of Jews has come at the hands of European Christians. Nor are they the only people to face percesecution. Certainly the Roma, or Gypsies, have faced persecution everywhere they have gone for the past five centuries and were also victims of the Nazi holocaust. The Armenians and Kurds have been harried and killed by the Turks (and others), with over one-and-a-half Armenians the victims of Turkish genocide in the early part of the 20th century. Also, Native Americans have a pretty strong claim to nearly 500 years of genocide, persecution, and oppression that caused some tribes to be wiped out altogether and almost resulted in the extermination of the entire race.

despite all the nation that you mention, the jewish had atacked, when those nations even don't come to the world.
the jewish had attacks from ancient greece, rome empire, babylon, Ashur, ancient egypt, and others, and that only before the first christians walked on the earth.

Europe is maybe the heart of anti-semitism, but they aren't the only. all the polo theists religion was against us from the begining. the muslims was against us much before we start to think on countrey. empires went through the middle east, and always they put the native jewish as aim for hate, and robbery.

we see the world develope from the oldest empires to the 21th century, and only two thing stay always: wars, and anti-semitism.

I don't try and claim money, you say we claim we shouldn't claim money, you wanna tell that to the decendants of black slaves in the U.S who are claiming money ?

Tell it to the Jews who lost 6 million people, and hell, start campaigning if you want the money, if not, shut up.



Sure it was tragic and all. Both the holocaust, the whole slavery thingy, everything. But people living today have absolutely nothing to do with all this. If you ask me it's just whining people looking for easy money and life. Are you american? If so, well why don't you give the first black guy that you see next 5000$ cos his great great great grandparents were taken by force from africa to the usa and were forced to slavery. Do you get my point? This guy hasn't suffered, has he? You haven't suffered, have you? I haven't suffered. Bloody hell. Also donate your house to the first native american you see. Man they've got so many priviledges and are bloody rich, some of them anyways, running casinos and all that. Why? Because about 500 years ago their grand grand grand grand grand grand parents used to own the place. Hell I don't see Israelis handing out muslims any money because they used to live right about there were the nation exists at the very moment not even a hundred years ago.

BLoody hell. According to you children of murderers are also obligated to hand out money for their parent's victim's offsprings. Right? And no matter when it happened. Hell I'm starting a research if someone has ever killed any of my distant family members in the past 500 years. Then I'll track down their living relatives and easy MONEY! :headbang:

And to answer the question "Why always the jews?" I'd say it has a lot to do with the Bible. I mean before people really belived that it was like a true historical book full of facts. And it does pretty much say that the jews killed the messiah and let's face it, killing a messiah is never good. "That bastard's ancestors killed the messiah, let's kill him!"

I'm so glad we know better these days. I mean let's face it, Bible's nothing but a fairy tale written by various people for their own agenda. "Obey or you go to hell" is pretty good way to controll the population I'd say, probably written by some sort of King or similar ruler. "Don't eat fish or you go to hell, and better sacrifice a sheep or two to be safe" Probably written by some meat shop owner whose sales weren't too good for the fish market next doors was getting all the customers. The Bible is only good for one thing, making a flick of it called The Passion Of The Christ :)

I say we give reparation money to all African Americans who are willing to take it and live in africa for the rest of their lives. They would never be able to come back to america.

Sure it was tragic and all. Both the holocaust, the whole slavery thingy, everything. But people living today have absolutely nothing to do with all this. If you ask me it's just whining people looking for easy money and life. Are you american? If so, well why don't you give the first black guy that you see next 5000$ cos his great great great grandparents were taken by force from africa to the usa and were forced to slavery. Do you get my point? This guy hasn't suffered, has he? You haven't suffered, have you? I haven't suffered. Bloody hell. Also donate your house to the first native american you see. Man they've got so many priviledges and are bloody rich, some of them anyways, running casinos and all that. Why? Because about 500 years ago their grand grand grand grand grand grand parents used to own the place. Hell I don't see Israelis handing out muslims any money because they used to live right about there were the nation exists at the very moment not even a hundred years ago.

BLoody hell. According to you children of murderers are also obligated to hand out money for their parent's victim's offsprings. Right? And no matter when it happened. Hell I'm starting a research if someone has ever killed any of my distant family members in the past 500 years. Then I'll track down their living relatives and easy MONEY! :headbang:
the jewish wasn't claim for the suffer of their grand parents. the ones who claim for money is the ones who was in the holocust.
tell me one good reason why they shouldn't claim for money that take away from them in force, homes the nazis occupied, and the suuferness they had?

you want to tell me that you never heard about criminals who has to give money for their victims?
you think that france wasn't get after WW1 more money than germany can give?
you never heard about that "pacification" thing?
or you think jewish invented that?

somehow, most of the ones who think the holocust's victims families shouldn't claim damages, are the ones who think that Israel have to send money for the palastinians. Interesting, right?

Because prying the money out of Swiss banks would be interesting to say the least.

Put it this way, the following have tried to wipe them out

Canaanite (Phoenecians) - Same people as Jews, different religion
Assyrians
Babylonians
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Roman Catholics
Islam
Nazi Germany

... and they're still here

Because prying the money out of Swiss banks would be interesting to say the least.
no need to do that. germany and Israel had damage agreement, for every holocust's survivor who claim the money, from the fifties.
also that agreement is only for the time the survivor live. relatives can't claim for family sufforness.
and if germany goverment accept to do that for the realitionship between her and Israel, I think this argument is unnecessery.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world
:confused: When was this?

<snip>

I'm not going to bother to repeat your "arguments" because they do not bear repeating. However, I will provide a summary:

1. Patronising comments
2. Israel is unfairly focused on. Therefore it is anti-Semitism.
3. Anti-semitists are likely to be anti-zionist
4. Anecdotal evidence of anti-Semtism in france.
5. Anti-Zionists think that Sharon is Hitler and Arafat is a saint.
6. I speak many languages

The first point I really do not appreciate. I provided a definition of Zionism so that others could disagree with my definition if required. It's standard practice for a reasoned argument. If you, on the other hand, are incapable of arguing in a reasoned manner without resorting to snide comments then I suggest you try growing up.

The second point is debatable, but overlooks the fact that Israel is a particularly unique situation, given the widespread ramifications of actions there. Even if the media do choose to focus, unfairly or not, on a particular situation that in no way invalidates the arguments of those who disagree with the situation. And, yes, there are those who would be equally opposed to any group of people who claimed moral justification for their actions solely on their innate right to a patch of land.

As for the third point, not only did I never deny that most anti-Semites are anti-Zionists it is wholly irrelevant to the case at hand. Saying that most anti-Semites are anti-Zionist does support the argument that all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites any more than the fact that most bananas are yellow proves that all yellow things are bananas. This is logic at its most elementary.

Point four is wholly irrelevant to the issue of whether anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism and so I won't even dwell on it.

Point five is a classic straw man argument. It's neither true nore relevant.

Point six is completely irrelevant.

So you managed to fail to address any of the issues I raised while filling your post with irrelevant, spurious or illogical claims. I make one simple request, if you want to continue this argument please do so properly. Refute my arguments in a rational, methodical manner. If you read my previous post I clearly set out what my argument was without sidetracking or deliberately or accidentally obscuring the matter. If you're not willing to do the same then I won't be wasting my time with any more of your rants. Tackle the issues, please, or don't bother replying.


hope this helps.

It really doesn't.

what you think the meaning of anti-zionist is? but said it clearly, I really want to understant that.

Please provide the g.d-damned arguments. No, really! I am more than willing to discuss them. Right now, all you manage to do is:

- what you said was bullshit because I say so
- what you said was bullshit despite everyday evidence and facts
- what you said was bullshit and I don't need facts to back up my claims, or to cite my sources
- what you said was bullshit and let's call you names, because frankly that's all I've got left

I strongly suggest you study the matter thoroughly. Thank you very much.

Maybe it's because Jews have historically been a minority in many places in Europe and the Middle East. People don't like to be the reason things go bad, so naturally they try to place the blame on somebody else. But if your gonna blame somebody you also want to blame people that you are less likely to encounter but encounter often enough that you don't sound like your completely insane. Since the Jewish people have been a minority historically in those places they would be a logical scapegoat. I don't think people consiously made the disition to blame them, it most likely subconcious. I'm also not that good at writting so if this needs more clarification please just say so.

Doruhku, I think that's very on the money. It's not "always the Jews," it's that the Jews, in the situations where they have been persecuted (barring Isreal, which is a special case), they have been persecuted as a highly visible, minority "other." This is not exceptional. There are half a dozen genocides underway in Africa that follow the same model. This is why blacks suffered under a century of Jim Crow and segregation in the U.S. This is why there were pogroms against gypsies in Russia, same as against Jews, this is why the Nazis also rounded up homosexuals in the Holocaust. Same as the anti-Communist frenzy in the fifties, same as the anti-Asian frenzy in the U.S. west in the 1920s.

If a majority group is going to scapegoat somebody, they're going to look for a group that's easy to identify and easy to demonize as foreign or other.

Put it this way, the following have tried to wipe them out

Canaanite (Phoenecians) - Same people as Jews, different religion
Assyrians
Babylonians
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Roman Catholics
Islam
Nazi Germany

... and they're still here

Let's just slow down a bit, shall we. There is only one group from your list that has tried to wipe out the Jews, and that is Nazi Germany. The other groups you have mentioned have, at various points in their history, had conflicts or even wars with Hebrew tribes or some Jewish people, but that is not the same as trying to "wipe them out."

By your standards the British tried to wipe out Americans during the Revolution or the War of 1812.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist who thinks that there is a world-wide anti-Jewish plot stretching back for millenia, nor do I think that we are the only religion/culture to be mistreated throughout history. Others have had it just as bad, sometimes worse. But it seems that Jews always do seem to have a special seat reserved for them in the 'Scapegoat' section.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world and currently Israel is the focus of many international eyes (Please, don't turn this into a thread about Israels actions since its creation in '48), but the brief rises are always overshadowed by the larger falls.

Why is it always the Jews?

Because... because they're just jealous. :)

Let's just slow down a bit, shall we. There is only one group from your list that has tried to wipe out the Jews, and that is Nazi Germany. The other groups you have mentioned have, at various points in their history, had conflicts or even wars with Hebrew tribes or some Jewish people, but that is not the same as trying to "wipe them out."

By your standards the British tried to wipe out Americans during the Revolution or the War of 1812.
no, you wrong.
maybe just the nazis, tried to wipe out the jewish from the world by destruction, but you missed the point.
all the other tried to wipe out the judaism as religion, colture, and life style.
when the jewish tried to stay jewish, all that nations tried to kill them.
there no nation on the world that totaly "wipe out", this is always coltural death.
if you want to comprise that to other war, take the cold war as exemple: this war between the jewish colture and the others. depite the fact that if the cold war was as same she didn't finish after only 50 years, the americans would try to kill every russian who don't want to be capitalist (or even some that want- like the nazis did), and the russian would be little group against almost whole the world.

in all that cases this is pure anti-semitism. anti-semitism that whole the world had before WW2, when all the countries in the world reject the jewish wish for help to run away from germany to other state.
when you say that the nazis are the only ones who try to wipe out the jewish, you ignore the history, maybe even lie.

We have had our time in the spotlight, I'm not denying that. At one time in history our Empire was the largest in the world

:confused: When was this?

Yes, when exactly was that, I'd wondered myself...

Yes, when exactly was that, I'd wondered myself...
I think he meant the kingdom of judha.
this wasn't huge empire, but it also was most of the area of Israel, Jordan and southe syria and Lebanon.
this time was close to 1000 B.C., and It was for century or less. Shlomo the last king has 1000 wifes, one for every peace agreement. but I don't think that was the bigest countrey at the world.
some hundrads years later, we had small area on the rome empire, until we defeated.

I think there is also king of east european kingdom, that decice to choose the best religion on the world: he talk with christians, muslims, and jewish, and decide for the judaism. his whole tiny state forced to be jewish.

but there no jewish empire over all the world, if you ignore whole the anti-semite conspiracies.

Wow, people completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that anti-zionism isn't anti-semitism (and it is). I was just pointing out the reasons who some Jews are PRESENTLY against the existence of the state of Israel. I also probably shouldn't have said that the Orthodox Jews who are against a present state of Israel are anti-Zionist, because they are definitely Zionist, but just want the Messiah to come first. A Jew who is anti-Zionist is ignorant of the fact that Zionism is a major part of Judaism. Zionism is simply the idea of a Jewish Homeland. Unfortunately, people have twisted the term so that many people think that Zionism is bad, much like the way Liberalism is negative among people.

Jews need a homeland, and not just Israelis, but all Jews. When we were expelled from many countries over and over again, we had no where else to go, so we just had to go to a country, only to get expelled again. Finally, after the Holocaust and more expulsion, it was finally decided that active Zionism should occur to stop this terrible pattern, so the state of Israel was created. Exiled Jews finally had a home to return to where they couldn't be exiled from since they knew that they would be with Jews who wouldn't expel each other (which is why a Jewish majority is so important - and don't say that it's racist, because a Jewish majority is much different from a state where only Jews can come to. Israel is one of the most religiously tolerant countries in the world, and maybe THE most religiously tolerant). Now, if Jews get expelled from countries again (which also happened right after the creation of Israel from the surrounding Arab countries), they will be welcome in Israel. If Israel was available during the 1930s, the Holocaust wouldn't have happened because the Jews of Europe would've been welcome in Israel. This is why a Jewish homeland is so important. In the case that people become extremely intolerant in America (which I don't think will happen in America, but is already occurring in other countries) and mass anti-semitism spreads I'll always have Israel to go to.


Anti zionism is *not* anti semitism.

Zionism's goal is to create a racist state for the jews to live in.
Refusing to accept the idea that *any* religion is 'entitled' to a special 'homeland' by god is not anti-semitic, it is simply common sense.

Not every jew is a zionist, in fact there are perfectly jewish jews who refuse to accept israel's claim to divine right.

It isnt anti semitic to believe that divine right expired back in the middle ages.

I like jews.

Please provide the g.d-damned arguments. No, really! I am more than willing to discuss them. Right now, all you manage to do is:

- what you said was bullshit because I say so
- what you said was bullshit despite everyday evidence and facts
- what you said was bullshit and I don't need facts to back up my claims, or to cite my sources
- what you said was bullshit and let's call you names, because frankly that's all I've got left

I strongly suggest you study the matter thoroughly. Thank you very much.


Did you even read his post? Honestly?

Nothing you're saying up there corrorsponds to what he wrote or even what you wrote originally.

Its practically spam.

what you think the meaning of anti-zionist is? but said it clearly, I really want to understant that.

Anti-zionist, in my opinion means:

Opposition to the claim that jewish people have the divine right to control certain lands.

I do not believe that *ANYONE* has the divine right to control anything.
That it is jews making the claim in 'zionism' is incidental the primary matter of arguement by divine right.

If muslims claimed they had divine right to rule a land, I would oppose them in no less measure, ditto christians or anyone else.

I personaly have nothing against Jews as such. Damn, my family is actually associated with one of the most influential Jewish families on the North American continent, and they've done alot of good for us. Not to mention the fact that Jewish comedy=the best. :D

I am however opposed to Jewish Zionist Supremacy. Now, this isn't to say that all Zionists can be catagorized as supremacists. I for one am in favor of the state of Israel, and do hope that the Israelies will eventually get the peaceful and stable state they have been dreaming of for so long. But there is a section of Jewish society which is supremacist in nature; mainly Orthodox Jews who in my opinion have taken the wrong lessons away from their experience with the Third Reich. Yes, there is something of Jewish Nazism out there, and these people make me sick. For the record, I think White Supremacism is bullshit too.

Zionism's goal is to create a racist state for the jews to live in.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Put it this way, the following have tried to wipe them out

Canaanite (Phoenecians) - Same people as Jews, different religion
Assyrians
Babylonians
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Roman Catholics
Islam
Nazi Germany

... and they're still here
Let's just slow down a bit, shall we. There is only one group from your list that has tried to wipe out the Jews, and that is Nazi Germany. The other groups you have mentioned have, at various points in their history, had conflicts or even wars with Hebrew tribes or some Jewish people, but that is not the same as trying to "wipe them out."
no, you wrong. maybe just the nazis, tried to wipe out the jewish from the world by destruction, but you missed the point. all the other tried to wipe out the judaism as religion, colture, and life style. in all that cases this is pure anti-semitism. anti-semitism that whole the world had before WW2, when all the countries in the world reject the jewish wish for help to run away from germany to other state. when you say that the nazis are the only ones who try to wipe out the jewish, you ignore the history, maybe even lie.

There is no doubt that the Jewish people have suffered enough over the centuries that there is no need to manufacture incidents of persecution. Much of what you are calling anti-Semitism is nothing more than normal tribal and national conflict that has occurred throughout history all over the world. For instance:

Canaan – Canaanites, a Semitic people, were the first known inhabitants of Palestine. Moses’ successor, Joshua, invaded Canaan around 1200 B.C. At about the same time, the Philistines, a non-Semitic people who had recently been driven from their homes in Crete, also invaded Canaan from the Mediterranean. For the next two hundred years, there was heavy fighting in the area among the Philistines, Canaanites and the Israelites, who also came to be known as Jews or Hebrews. Eventually, the Philistines, Canaanites and other religious and ethnic groups were subjugated by Israel. This conflict had nothing to do with the Jewish religion or anti-Semitism. It was a basic, run-of-the-mill geopolitical conflict.

Babylonians - In 722 B.C., the northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians, who forcibly resettled thousands of its inhabitants to Mesopotamia. In 586 B.C, Judah was defeated by Nebuchadnezzar, leader of the Babylonian Empire, which was the successor to the Assyrians in Mesopotamia. The Jewish religious and political elite were transported to Babylon after the conquest and the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. The region from that time onward was usually part of a greater empire.

Yea, that was bad, but about par for the way Babylonians treated ALL their captives.

Persians – Judah was a small land within the Persian empire. As is written of Cyrus in the Book of Isaiah, 44:28 and 45:1, the Jewish priesthood looked kindly upon Persia's kings. Cyrus had freed the Hebrew captives, and Cyrus and his successors had protected them from the aggressions of others and allowed them to worship their own god.

Greeks - Persia was conquered by the Macedonian Greek leader Alexander the Great who established a huge empire that included Palestine. The Greeks attempted to implant Greek culture throughout their domain and in 168 B.C. rededicated the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem to Zeus.

However, they treated the Jews no differently than they did any other conquered people.

Romans - The beginning of the Roman era was more a period of Jewish-Roman cooperation than conflict, and the Jews enjoyed substantial autonomy especially in religious matters. In fact, one of the early Roman Governors of Palestine was Herod, a Jew. In 66 A.D. a Jewish group called the Zealots began a bloody seven year rebellion which the Romans retaliated against by destroying the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. After the revolt, the Romans restored autonomy to the Jews who again revolted in 132 A.D. During the revolt, the Romans killed and enslaved thousands of Jews and after it was put down they passed a decree forbidding Jews from entering Jerusalem.

There was no anti-Semitism in the way Rome treated Jews. Many people were conquered by the Romans and for the most part they were all, including the Jews, treated the same.

Islam - Jews especially enjoyed more freedom under Muslim rule than anywhere else in the world as the Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere granted Jews considerable autonomy to make and enforce their own religious, judicial, and social rules and a number of Jews held important posts under the various Muslim Caliphs. Muslims removed the restrictions the Romans and Byzantines had placed on the right of Jews to visit and inhabit Jerusalem.

For most of history Jews, both as an ethnic and relgious group, have been treated no differently than any other people. The exception is in Medieval Europe, Russia and Eastern Europe during the second half of the second millenium, and, of course, the Holocaust at the hands of the Nazis.

There is no need to try and extend "victimization" to include the normal conflicts and vicissitudes of history.

what you think the meaning of anti-zionist is? but said it clearly, I really want to understant that.

I dealt with this in an earlier post, but here are the three possible ways to interpret belief in Zionism:

1. There should be a Jewish state at some point.

2. The Jewish people have a right to a state.

3. The present Jewish state must exist.

Anti-Zionism, then, would be opposition of one or more of these beliefs.

Please provide the g.d-damned arguments. No, really! I am more than willing to discuss them. Right now, all you manage to do is:

- what you said was bullshit because I say so
- what you said was bullshit despite everyday evidence and facts
- what you said was bullshit and I don't need facts to back up my claims, or to cite my sources
- what you said was bullshit and let's call you names, because frankly that's all I've got left

I strongly suggest you study the matter thoroughly. Thank you very much.

I fail to see the point in continuing this "debate" at this point. When you have something substantial to argue feel free to post it, until that date I'm considering this line of discussion dead.

Why Jews???

How about "why us".

White man didn't invent hate. In the Bible, the Jews institutionalized hatred, that is, if a person wasn't Jewish, they were "Unclean Gentiles". And that term would include pretty much the entire race.

Jews were never excluded from life in the world, they exiled themselves. When they were a part of the Roman Empire, they could have reaped the benefits of being part of the greatest enterprise that mankind undertook (until the British Empire). But they chose to segregate themselves.

Same with the ghettos, they chose not to live in regular neighbourhoods, but by themselves, away from the unclean gentiles.

Zionism was a benevolent undertaking, to create a place for these people, who are segregationists. If some white folk want to live on their own in Montana, they are 'racist'. But if Jews want to live alone (on Palestinian land), they are somehow not racist.

They have no cohesion. They will gladly rip each other off, as well as ripping the rest of humanity; in order to grub a few extra cents from hard working people. Their children only get into money making jobs, put there by nepotism and the guilt that they lay on everyone else. The children are not allowed, for the most part, to live a regular life. Those people that chose to integrate, are exiled by the Jewish authorities.

The problems all lay at their doorstep. If they ever, for a second, treated others with some respect and decorum, life in this world would be quite different. Gentiles would no longer have to live in dumps in Gaza, under threat of death, and with no future, if they could just legally purchase and own land. This is land that belongs to these people. In our nation, if you want to live somewhere, you save money and buy the land. In Israel, you can only own things if the religious authorities say you are 'clean'. Everyone else is unclean, and are ignored except when it comes to paying rent.

Sorry for comming in so late, just wanted to try and clarify a few things. First, while it may have been used this way in really ancient times, the concept of Jews being the chosen people is not some kind of religious suppremacy theory. There is actually this idea of the laws of Noah which says basically as long as you're a good person and believe in one god (Jews didn't have good experiences with polytheism when the Old Testament was written- too many orgies and human sacrifices), you were still pleasing to God. The Zionist movement was really a secular one, and while no one else has pointed this out, is actually more similar to what happened to Native Americans in the United States than anything else. At the time the movement began, until 1948, there really wasn't any cohesion among Arab peoples. Thus, it was very possible for a group of Jewish settlers to purchase land from a Sheik (I don't know if that would be the historically correct term), without any of the Arab squatters on the land having a say. Really, the early settlers pretty much acted the way Europeans tend to act toward natives. It's from this, that I have my main problem with anti-Zionism, that Israel's actions while certainly bad, are not worse than those of most other nations, and the nations and peoples who are much more vicious than Israel rarely receive as much condemnation. This is my argument for anti-Zionism being anti-Semitism, as it holds Jews to a higher standard than other people.

<snipped well-thought-out post>
This is my argument for anti-Zionism being anti-Semitism, as it holds Jews to a higher standard than other people.

Now I have no problems with what you said earlier, but I think the key to the last sentence is what your definition of anti-Zionism is. It's not clear from the rest of your post so could you spell it out for me?

Anti-zionist, in my opinion means:

Opposition to the claim that jewish people have the divine right to control certain lands.

I do not believe that *ANYONE* has the divine right to control anything.
That it is jews making the claim in 'zionism' is incidental the primary matter of arguement by divine right.

If muslims claimed they had divine right to rule a land, I would oppose them in no less measure, ditto christians or anyone else.
why not?
you agree that the english had right to countre divided from france and from italy and from germany? why they had that right? because of their different colture, because they fight for establish that states before hundrads years, because that what they choose.
the jewish are as same: had different colture, fight for that land and despite the others buy most of her area, and had world wide agreement in the UN.

if you say that nobody had "right" for countrey, do you mean the americans shouldn't create USa, long tine away? the arabs aren't OK for had countries?
or maybe you see that problem only in israel and not in other countries like korea who divided her self, or all the countries that come to the world when the imperialism over, or when SSSR failed.

there is 2 options: or you think that all the states in the list shouldn't be and you think that all the world has to be united by one goverment(or no goverment), and then you live in dreams. or you think that all that states has right to be, but Israel not, and then you anti-semitic.

For most of history Jews, both as an ethnic and relgious group, have been treated no differently than any other people. The exception is in Medieval Europe, Russia and Eastern Europe during the second half of the second millenium, and, of course, the Holocaust at the hands of the Nazis.

There is no need to try and extend "victimization" to include the normal conflicts and vicissitudes of history.
except the islam all the nations you mention is polotheists. when polotheist nation conquerd area, whole the natives had to work to their gods, in additon to their preview gods.
other polotheists agree to that, because there is no difference between 20 gods or 40 gods. for that agreement, they had speical benefits, and some times they even was the wariors of the new empire.
jewish as "one god religion" can't work for other gods. if they do they loose their riligion, their colture, and their spirtual lifes.
for example of the things that jewish past through imagine that: terrorists conquerd the world and blown up the vatican and the churches. they demand you work for their gods, or you day os be a slave. you can't wear any religious signal, you can't prey, you can't read the bible. if you do that they kill you and all of your family. you live in reign of terror, and you could die for any little thing. don't you think that is victimization?

and about the islamic leaders who was for thh jewish. there is at least like that cases. other cases when the islam rule the jewish minority in hard hand and imposible laws, but I don't want to get inside that, because I don't know much on that subject.

1) Every nation on the planet is the result of evil acts. The trick is to stop the evil acts, not say, "Well, we did it, so its okay". Learning from history's mistakes is a GOOD thing.

2) If Isreal wants to start a nation, they can do it in a legal and moral fashion. Buy some fricking land that nobody else wants to keep for themselves. Don't take it from some poor goat herders just because your book says you got dibs on their land.

3) Basing a region on a basic moral concept is fine. Basing it in a specific religion is idiotic. The US was great for awhile because we tried to keep religion out of politics. Now that the US is riddled with 'faith', we're going to pot.

4) Isreal is basically a giant-scale Vatican with massive funds and NUKES. You honestly think that's a good idea? Would you give the pope NUKES?

Why Jews???

How about "why us".

White man didn't invent hate. In the Bible, the Jews institutionalized hatred, that is, if a person wasn't Jewish, they were "Unclean Gentiles". And that term would include pretty much the entire race.

Jews were never excluded from life in the world, they exiled themselves. When they were a part of the Roman Empire, they could have reaped the benefits of being part of the greatest enterprise that mankind undertook (until the British Empire). But they chose to segregate themselves.

Same with the ghettos, they chose not to live in regular neighbourhoods, but by themselves, away from the unclean gentiles.

Zionism was a benevolent undertaking, to create a place for these people, who are segregationists. If some white folk want to live on their own in Montana, they are 'racist'. But if Jews want to live alone (on Palestinian land), they are somehow not racist.

They have no cohesion. They will gladly rip each other off, as well as ripping the rest of humanity; in order to grub a few extra cents from hard working people. Their children only get into money making jobs, put there by nepotism and the guilt that they lay on everyone else. The children are not allowed, for the most part, to live a regular life. Those people that chose to integrate, are exiled by the Jewish authorities.

The problems all lay at their doorstep. If they ever, for a second, treated others with some respect and decorum, life in this world would be quite different. Gentiles would no longer have to live in dumps in Gaza, under threat of death, and with no future, if they could just legally purchase and own land. This is land that belongs to these people. In our nation, if you want to live somewhere, you save money and buy the land. In Israel, you can only own things if the religious authorities say you are 'clean'. Everyone else is unclean, and are ignored except when it comes to paying rent.
well, that is fully misunderstanding of the judaism and the history, and maybe a bit anti-semitism. I don't know even from where to start to unprove that.
first of, the bible never call to un jewish "unclean", maybe the un jewish call that to jewish.
second, the judaism as religion was clean than most of the other coltures that time. the judaism invented Ideas like clean your hand before you eat and probide eating un-healthy food like pig or meat with milk. that some of the reasons they harm less in the great diseasses, and suffor from anti-semitism.
third the jewish biblical probidion to merry with un-jewish, was because we are little religion. rebbais had affraid we disapear if the unjewish could merry us, so they prohibid that. also this count only unjewish men, not women.
in addition, the only thing that say is that all the ones who want to merry jewish, should be part of the judaism.
forth, about rome. the rome said become un-jewish or die. where you see here part who talk about friendship with the greatest empire?
fifth, the ghettos. jewish has to live there, because the medivel laws prohibid them from live in the cities, or work in christian jobs. after the renesans, when jewish could move to the cities, large part leave the judaism, and move to there.
six, the jewish want to live alone only after the holocust, when 6 milion jewish die, and the world do nothing. the world even refused to help the refugees in most of hte cases.
your almost last pharase is pure anti-semitism and racism. I had no reason to argue on that stupidity.
and now for the last pharase. jewish buy most of their lands. they gave citizenship to un-jewish. if you talk about gaza, why you don't blame egypt too? at least be fair with us before you talk.

1) Every nation on the planet is the result of evil acts. The trick is to stop the evil acts, not say, "Well, we did it, so its okay". Learning from history's mistakes is a GOOD thing.

2) If Isreal wants to start a nation, they can do it in a legal and moral fashion. Buy some fricking land that nobody else wants to keep for themselves. Don't take it from some poor goat herders just because your book says you got dibs on their land.

3) Basing a region on a basic moral concept is fine. Basing it in a specific religion is idiotic. The US was great for awhile because we tried to keep religion out of politics. Now that the US is riddled with 'faith', we're going to pot.

4) Isreal is basically a giant-scale Vatican with massive funds and NUKES. You honestly think that's a good idea? Would you give the pope NUKES?
I answer you by your pharases:
1)wait you say to me that all the nations establishments was mistakes? why?
what wrong in the idea of people who feel united and establish their own countrey with agreement of the world?
in if you really think that system is wrong, what you think should be despite that?
2)the zionizm start without the riligious thing. It's started from un religious youngers, who came to Israel and develope the area. they come to the lands they buy from arab sheiks, and don't has anything. they make gardens and forests from the desert an swalows that was here before. they improve the economy, with modern agrictural ideas and technology. they live in modest and social equality, to save more from the money they hadn't to buy more little lands from the arabs in highest prices.
if you think and see there is no place on the earth that didn't had some natives in that time, and also understand that we build that state from zero, could you say me what bad in our acts?
3)israel concept isn't just on religion. It's on colture, nation, and world view.
if you ignore that things, tell me why europe is devided?
you tell me USA was good when she don't effected by religion. well, Israel don't was religious on the start too. Hertzel (the one who established the zionizm) tal about "state for the jewish", not "jewish state".
4)the question of the nukes, as the question of the borders of Israel, has no connection to the question of the right for state.
I'm think that maybe we could destroy our nukes for true peace agreement with all the arabs states, but that not the issue.

I think many people have a hard time understanding that Jews were and are a people (not a race, but a people, which is kind of hard to explain) before a religious group.

I answer you by your pharases:
1)wait you say to me that all the nations establishments was mistakes? why?
what wrong in the idea of people who feel united and establish their own countrey with agreement of the world?
in if you really think that system is wrong, what you think should be despite that?
2)the zionizm start without the riligious thing. It's started from un religious youngers, who came to Israel and develope the area. they come to the lands they buy from arab sheiks, and don't has anything. they make gardens and forests from the desert an swalows that was here before. they improve the economy, with modern agrictural ideas and technology. they live in modest and social equality, to save more from the money they hadn't to buy more little lands from the arabs in highest prices.
if you think and see there is no place on the earth that didn't had some natives in that time, and also understand that we build that state from zero, could you say me what bad in our acts?
3)israel concept isn't just on religion. It's on colture, nation, and world view.
if you ignore that things, tell me why europe is devided?
you tell me USA was good when she don't effected by religion. well, Israel don't was religious on the start too. Hertzel (the one who established the zionizm) tal about "state for the jewish", not "jewish state".
4)the question of the nukes, as the question of the borders of Israel, has no connection to the question of the right for state.
I'm think that maybe we could destroy our nukes for true peace agreement with all the arabs states, but that not the issue.

0) What do you mean by answer[ing] [me] by [my] phrases...?
1) Not a mistake, an evil act. History is built by evil acts. It needs to STOP at some point.
2) And its continuing via blowing people up to scare them off. Yes. Just purchasing land. Right. There's also something of an ethical issue here: If you go in to a poor country, and buy off all the greedy people, which leaves all the poor people without homes, is that ethically correct? If you could outbid a poor man on a big delicious meal, would you?
3) Race is also a stupid reason for nation building. It's even worse, actually, because there's no value system implied by being one race or another. Both together as reasons is half way to Hitler.
4) Bull. Being a nuclear power is something that the US doesn't deserve, much less a nation of fresh new hypocrites who pretty much -all- believe they have another life to go to if they nuke the world.

If you want to forge a nation, forge a nation in land nobody else is using, and forge it out of peace, love, and happiness, not religion, race, and seperatism.

4) Bull. Being a nuclear power is something that the US doesn't deserve, much less a nation of fresh new hypocrites who pretty much -all- believe they have another life to go to if they nuke the world.

You're not talking about Israel, are you?

I think what I was trying to argue, was that when the state of Israel was founded, it really wasn't established as a theocracy, nor were Arabs discriminated against for religious reasons. On the whole, the early immigrants probably saw themselves just like any other group of European settlers and were thus not likely to show much respect to the "natives" of the region. My point was, that while I'll agree that Israel has somewhat moved from victim to oppressor, its actions are not much different than any nation over time which has conquered the lands of its enemies, and thus doesn't deserve a higher standard. One last thing which I'm not sure if I can adequately explain, but I'll do my best, there are a group of Orthodox Jews in Israel who agree with Zionism and are responsible for the death of Rabin and would like to kill Sharon (if you can believe it) for any desire to return land to the Palestinians. On the other hand, there are other Orthodox Jews viciously opposed to the state of Israel, who I think mostly live in the U.S. This wasn't really to any poster in particular, just wanted to explain something for future posters.

My point was, that while I'll agree that Israel has somewhat moved from victim to oppressor, its actions are not much different than any nation over time which has conquered the lands of its enemies, and thus doesn't deserve a higher standard.

Quite right, it deserves the same standard. If any modern country was acting in the way Israel is I would oppose it. Maybe not as passionately but that is only because Israel is one of only 4 places in the world I feel a strong affinity for (the UK, China and the South of France being the others). To put this into perspective I did not support the strong-arm tactics used by some UK governments in Northern Ireland in the past and I would not support them in the future. Equally if the roles were reversed and Israel were Muslim-majority and Palestine Jewish-majority I would not support its actions.

I answer you by your pharases:
1)wait you say to me that all the nations establishments was mistakes? why?
what wrong in the idea of people who feel united and establish their own countrey with agreement of the world?
in if you really think that system is wrong, what you think should be despite that?
Israel was not founded with the agreement of the world. It was founded especially against the wills of those who actually lived in the land and with full knowledge and determination to eliminate those people.
2)the zionizm start without the riligious thing. It's started from un religious youngers, who came to Israel and develope the area. they come to the lands they buy from arab sheiks, and don't has anything. they make gardens and forests from the desert an swalows that was here before. they improve the economy, with modern agrictural ideas and technology. they live in modest and social equality, to save more from the money they hadn't to buy more little lands from the arabs in highest prices.
if you think and see there is no place on the earth that didn't had some natives in that time, and also understand that we build that state from zero, could you say me what bad in our acts?
Worse: Zionism ist a nationalist thing based on religion. Zionists bought land from rich Arabs who did not live in the land with the clear aim to drive families who had lived there for hundreds of years from their homes. Maybe the European Jews learned from the Germans all too well how to get rid of an unwanted population? And how to go against those who are defenseless?
3)israel concept isn't just on religion. It's on colture, nation, and world view.
if you ignore that things, tell me why europe is devided?
you tell me USA was good when she don't effected by religion. well, Israel don't was religious on the start too. Hertzel (the one who established the zionizm) tal about "state for the jewish", not "jewish state".
What is Israeli culture or world view without Judaism? Inexistent. The "chosen-people-ideology" has always been the driving force behind all desperate measures to keep Jews separate from others, wherever they had lived throughout history (especially in Europe). And since Israel is based on Zionism and the concept of The Jewish State ("Der Judenstaat", Herzl, 1896) religion is at the very core of what makes Israel today. If Judaism was not so aggressive and a little more aiming at connecting people, maybe Jews would not have been persecuted so much and others would have had more respect for Jews. But the way Israelites and their offspring have behaved ever since the Exodus, with their depreciatory attitude towards all who did not worship or honor the Jew's deity, has just made this impossible for non-Jews. Because of the isolatonist nature of traditional Judaism Christianity was founded in the first place.
4)the question of the nukes, as the question of the borders of Israel, has no connection to the question of the right for state.
I'm think that maybe we could destroy our nukes for true peace agreement with all the arabs states, but that not the issue.
Yes it has. If the Jews had only demanded a reasonable part of Palestine from the very beginning (maybe just the part north of Tel Aviv where Jews were really living) then even the Arabs would have agreed to a jewish state in their land. But when the Jews claimed all of Palestine in 1912 and when the UN later came up with a division plan which gave away basically all land that had any agricultural value the Arabs became suspicious.
And even today many people around the world doubt Israeli trustworthiness and rightfully condem the continued land grab that is based on the Jewish notion of superiority over the Arabs/Muslims. Israel is killing Paletsinian kids and bulldozes Palestinian houses but furthers more Jewish settlements all over the land. And now we see a fat mass murdering soldier-come-politician playing games about a weird "disengagement plan" that was only set up to divert attention from the always accelerating land grab in the West Bank (by means of the wall and further support for Jewish settlers there).

Israel was not founded with the agreement of the world. It was founded especially against the wills of those who actually lived in the land and with full knowledge and determination to eliminate those people.
1. The U.N. allowed for Israel to gain the land.
2. Not everyone was against the formation of Israel. Arabs who left (from a range of causes, from a goal to destroy Israel or out of fear of war, etc.) became Palestinians and the ones who stayed became Israelis.
3. It was not the Israelis who declared the war in 1948

Worse: Zionism ist a nationalist thing based on religion. Zionists bought land from rich Arabs who did not live in the land with the clear aim to drive families who had lived there for hundreds of years from their homes. Maybe the European Jews learned from the Germans all too well how to get rid of an unwanted population? And how to go against those who are defenseless?

1. America was a “nationalist thing” based on religion to, as with other countries. What’s your point, that Israel should be solely singled out for it?
2. So every person living there was living there for centuries? That may be the case for some, but definitely not all. When the British controlled the mandate of Palestine, they were lax about many Arab settlers moving in from surrounding areas. They were letting anyone in, but the Jews living there applied to the British and bought the land.
3. Hmm, comparing the Jews to the Nazis only shows what you don’t know.

What is Israeli culture or world view without Judaism? Inexistent. The "chosen-people-ideology" has always been the driving force behind all desperate measures to keep Jews separate from others, wherever they had lived throughout history (especially in Europe). And since Israel is based on Zionism and the concept of The Jewish State ("Der Judenstaat", Herzl, 1896) religion is at the very core of what makes Israel today. If Judaism was not so aggressive and a little more aiming at connecting people, maybe Jews would not have been persecuted so much and others would have had more respect for Jews. But the way Israelites and their offspring have behaved ever since the Exodus, with their depreciatory attitude towards all who did not worship or honor the Jew's deity, has just made this impossible for non-Jews. Because of the isolatonist nature of traditional Judaism Christianity was founded in the first place.
1. The chosen people thing has already been cleared up here or on other topics, and it’s really a ridiculous thing to use against Jews anyway.
2. Judaism actually does try to connect people. The heart of Judaism, the Torah, was created as the law and for peace. Your ignorance is showing.
3. Okay, now you’re justifying years of persecution against the Jews. Need I say more?
4. But the way Israelites and their offspring have behaved ever since the Exodus, with their depreciatory attitude towards all who did not worship or honor the Jew's deity, has just made this impossible for non-Jews.
This is your most ridiculous statement yet. No, the Jews don’t hate all those who are different than them. By the way, if you are Christian or Muslim, he’s your deity too, as a side note. It is actually the Christians who have had such an attitude (in the past) about those who did not accept Jesus. A great example is the Inquisition, where Christians killed Jews for not accepting Jesus. The Romans also persecuted both Christians and Jews for not worshipping Jupiter.
5. No, Christianity was founded from a small group of Jews who thought Jesus was the Messiah. Then he was deified by Paul and Romans.

Yes it has. If the Jews had only demanded a reasonable part of Palestine from the very beginning (maybe just the part north of Tel Aviv where Jews were really living) then even the Arabs would have agreed to a jewish state in their land. But when the Jews claimed all of Palestine in 1912 and when the UN later came up with a division plan which gave away basically all land that had any agricultural value the Arabs became suspicious.
And even today many people around the world doubt Israeli trustworthiness and rightfully condem the continued land grab that is based on the Jewish notion of superiority over the Arabs/Muslims. Israel is killing Paletsinian kids and bulldozes Palestinian houses but furthers more Jewish settlements all over the land. And now we see a fat mass murdering soldier-come-politician playing games about a weird "disengagement plan" that was only set up to divert attention from the always accelerating land grab in the West Bank (by means of the wall and further support for Jewish settlers there).
1. The Jews didn’t claim all of Palestine. From the partition plans the Jews accepted whatever they were given, just as long as they got something.
2. Did you know that Israel isn’t the only part of Palestine? Jordan is Palestine also, and is the original Palestinian Arab state.
3. Jews don’t feel like they’re better than all the Arabs. You’re really pulling words out of your ass now.
4. Kids on both sides have been killed and it sucks really, really badly, though the suicide bombers kill intentionally (most of this has already been discussed) Terrorists have used kids as human shields and sometimes kids get caught in crossfire. At least there are people in the Israeli Army who have actually felt remorseful and apologized to Palestinians who they have wounded in crossfire (if you are doubtful, read “A Ray of Peace” from “Chicken Soup for the Jewish soul- long story short, a young Palestinian gets shot in crossfire by an Israeli soldier and is taken to America, but can’t go back to Israel. Years later, he went to a college and the dean of students acted like a father to him and gave him everything he needed but could not get, including a full scholarship, a job, and a home. It turns out that the dean was the soldier who shot the Palestinian, and by chance they met again. The dean expressed his grief, as during the demonstration, terrorists were shooting and throwing rocks, and a stray bullet hit the Palestinian boy. After the dean told him this, they embraced, reconciled, and became good friends).
5. The wall (or should I say fence, as it is ninety percent fence) saves lives. A fence is a lot better than letting suicide bombers in.

If Judaism was not so aggressive and a little more aiming at connecting people, maybe Jews would not have been persecuted so much and others would have had more respect for Jews.

You're summed up right here, as you justify persecution. Despicable.

1) Not a mistake, an evil act. History is built by evil acts. It needs to STOP at some point.
2) And its continuing via blowing people up to scare them off. Yes. Just purchasing land. Right. There's also something of an ethical issue here: If you go in to a poor country, and buy off all the greedy people, which leaves all the poor people without homes, is that ethically correct? If you could outbid a poor man on a big delicious meal, would you?
3) Race is also a stupid reason for nation building. It's even worse, actually, because there's no value system implied by being one race or another. Both together as reasons is half way to Hitler.
4) Bull. Being a nuclear power is something that the US doesn't deserve, much less a nation of fresh new hypocrites who pretty much -all- believe they have another life to go to if they nuke the world.

If you want to forge a nation, forge a nation in land nobody else is using, and forge it out of peace, love, and happiness, not religion, race, and seperatism.
1)right, there is evil acts every where. but still, every nation has a state, and the political world system built on countries. what let you think that jewish has to be the only ones who has no countrey?
if I understood corect, you say also that established states, Is always mistake. what better system do you know, or why do you think Israel need to be the first to change?
2)you see wrong the ethical question. the truth is that we buy swalows area, that the arabs didn't care, and develope it to farms, forests, and others.
the poor farmers who loose their land, get easily jobs in our farms. we gave them more technology, more modern lifes, and much better economy. they don't loose anything while they be with us.
3)wrong again. jewish never said that our "race" is better than any other. and if I back to my previous post: what reasons you see for the fact europe is divided, and USA isn't part of them? what reason you see for all state in the earth?
4)the jews never believed in other lifes, not any most of the other religions. the jewish never want to "nuke the world".
personaly I'm not for mass destruction weapons, but still there is no connection to the argument. come on, I don't see you said that north korea or Iran had no right to state.
don't say again "evil acts", you even can't tell what you mean by that.

Quite right, it deserves the same standard. If any modern country was acting in the way Israel is I would oppose it. Maybe not as passionately but that is only because Israel is one of only 4 places in the world I feel a strong affinity for (the UK, China and the South of France being the others). To put this into perspective I did not support the strong-arm tactics used by some UK governments in Northern Ireland in the past and I would not support them in the future. Equally if the roles were reversed and Israel were Muslim-majority and Palestine Jewish-majority I would not support its actions.
well, too bad because jewish are minority.
there are hunders of milions arabs in the world, and about 2 bilion is mulims.
there is only 16 milions jewish on the world, most of them not in the middle east.
when judaism start to be majority?

also, I can agree (or at least understand) anybody who has something against the acts of Israel.
but I can't agree with someone who has something against Israel as state for jewish democracy as Idea

well, too bad because jewish are minority.
there are hunders of milions arabs in the world, and about 2 bilion is mulims.
there is only 16 milions jewish on the world, most of them not in the middle east.
when judaism start to be majority?]

What does that matter? Wrongheaded actions are wrongheaded actions whether committed by a majority or a minority.


also, I can agree (or at least understand) anybody who has something against the acts of Israel.
but I can't agree with someone who has something against Israel as state for jewish democracy as Idea

Problem is that as soon as anyone makes any complaint against Israel's actions the follwing rationale is trotted out:

"Ah yes, but this action [whatever it is] is needed for Israel's defense. Therefore you want to see Israel destroyed. Therefore you are anti-Zionist. Therefore you are anti-Semitic."

Never mind that the criticisms I make are born out of the fact that I see the current regimes policies to be likely to create nothing but more danger for Israel.

What does that matter? Wrongheaded actions are wrongheaded actions whether committed by a majority or a minority.agree, but most of the people love to ignore the evil acts of the minority, as terror, using of civilians like live defence, and speaches that increase the hate.
I wrote that pharase, only because you use the majority thing as claim.
Problem is that as soon as anyone makes any complaint against Israel's actions the follwing rationale is trotted out:

"Ah yes, but this action [whatever it is] is needed for Israel's defense. Therefore you want to see Israel destroyed. Therefore you are anti-Zionist. Therefore you are anti-Semitic."

Never mind that the criticisms I make are born out of the fact that I see the current regimes policies to be likely to create nothing but more danger for Israel.
I can agree with you here. but first that excuses are part of patriotism, nationalism and radicalism in every state. as exemple see what many american answer for the ones who criticize USA actions in Iraq.
second many people can't stand in criticism that come for long time, and look like she she always on one side. when something look "un-fair", most of us will want to be un-fair to the other side. that one of the things that make hate grow up.

I don't think we had more reasons to argue now.

Because you always stick your noses into everything.

(sorry, had to ... if you're offended by this, I suppose I'll delete it)

That is what I call antisemitic.

Hey
You just can't ask everyone that listen Hitler didn't like us because we weren't catholic or whatever listen go to amazon.com and look up Rena's Promise order it and find out! I'm related to her!

Maybe someone said that before, I didn't read all the posts. The question is simple to answer. After the said death of Jesus, the early christians didn't want to piss off the romans as potential chrístians. So someone else was to blame. Someone who didn't want to convert to... The jews. You all know the part from the bible, where the jews choose who it is to be killed, ande the chose jesus. An interesting fact is, that the romans would have never asked the population. There was never a thing like this under the roman occupation.
So that christ-thing spread around the world... the jews did too. But they were always the said "god-killers". The whole shit, was also enforced by the early churches. Nuff said, peace ...

DrK.

1. The U.N. allowed for Israel to gain the land.
2. Not everyone was against the formation of Israel. Arabs who left (from a range of causes, from a goal to destroy Israel or out of fear of war, etc.) became Palestinians and the ones who stayed became Israelis.
3. It was not the Israelis who declared the war in 19481. Since when do the UN speak for anybody? Especially when they vote down those who are actually affected by a particular decision? The UN had no (moral) right to give away land that was already inhabited by others. Why did they not support Arab unity? Why did they enforce the division of the Middle East by the colonial powers? There was no need to create Israel in the Levant, but for ideological reasons the location was chosen with the full knowlegde to spur war.
2. Arabs who stayed still remained Palestinians (which is an artificial word to pretend a division among the Arabs) and were pushed from their land.
3. Given the circumstances the declaration of Israeli independence was a very clear and wilful declaration of war.
1. America was a “nationalist thing” based on religion to, as with other countries. What’s your point, that Israel should be solely singled out for it?
2. So every person living there was living there for centuries? That may be the case for some, but definitely not all. When the British controlled the mandate of Palestine, they were lax about many Arab settlers moving in from surrounding areas. They were letting anyone in, but the Jews living there applied to the British and bought the land.
3. Hmm, comparing the Jews to the Nazis only shows what you don’t know.1. America's errors do not justify anone else's errors. And this thread is about Jews.
2. Yes, or would you say that the Levant was anything else but inhabited by a large number of Arabs and a small number of Jews (between 5 and 10 percent) for 1500 years?
3. I know a lot. And the Jews obviously showed the very same nationalism and racism from the second half of the 19th century on just as anyone else in Europe at that time. And they transported their attitude towards "the others" to the Levant when they created Israel.
1. The chosen people thing has already been cleared up here or on other topics, and it’s really a ridiculous thing to use against Jews anyway.
2. Judaism actually does try to connect people. The heart of Judaism, the Torah, was created as the law and for peace. Your ignorance is showing.
3. Okay, now you’re justifying years of persecution against the Jews. Need I say more?
4. This is your most ridiculous statement yet. No, the Jews don’t hate all those who are different than them. By the way, if you are Christian or Muslim, he’s your deity too, as a side note. It is actually the Christians who have had such an attitude (in the past) about those who did not accept Jesus. A great example is the Inquisition, where Christians killed Jews for not accepting Jesus. The Romans also persecuted both Christians and Jews for not worshipping Jupiter.
5. No, Christianity was founded from a small group of Jews who thought Jesus was the Messiah. Then he was deified by Paul and Romans.
1. Cleared? How? Has the Torah been re-written?
2. Again, has the Torah been re-written? And were is the connective attitude of Judaism in the conquest of Canaan, when Judaism was just newly created? And where in the Torah does Yahweh show any love for those who do not worship him? Where in the Torah do the followers of Yahweh not demonize all others?
3. Am I? No, I just name the reasons why Jews were so much disliked. It's just impossible that such hatred is without a cause, that does not lie in Judaism itself. I do not say that Judaism is solely responsible, but to a essential part it is.
4. And that's why Samarians were not accounted real Jews, because although they also worshipped Yahweh they did not in the same way as the "real" Jews following the Temple authority? All the dealings between Jews and surrounding peoples show very clearly how non-connective they were. Even after the destruction of the temple the Jews kept their (ideological and physical) isolation from and distance to the societies in which they lived in the diaspora. It is very well understandable why others became suspicious about Jews over the centuries in ancient as well as in modern times.1. The Jews didn’t claim all of Palestine. From the partition plans the Jews accepted whatever they were given, just as long as they got something.
2. Did you know that Israel isn’t the only part of Palestine? Jordan is Palestine also, and is the original Palestinian Arab state.
3. Jews don’t feel like they’re better than all the Arabs. You’re really pulling words out of your ass now.
4. Kids on both sides have been killed and it sucks really, really badly, though the suicide bombers kill intentionally (most of this has already been discussed) Terrorists have used kids as human shields and sometimes kids get caught in crossfire. At least there are people in the Israeli Army who have actually felt remorseful and apologized to Palestinians who they have wounded in crossfire (if you are doubtful, read “A Ray of Peace” from “Chicken Soup for the Jewish soul- long story short, a young Palestinian gets shot in crossfire by an Israeli soldier and is taken to America, but can’t go back to Israel. Years later, he went to a college and the dean of students acted like a father to him and gave him everything he needed but could not get, including a full scholarship, a job, and a home. It turns out that the dean was the soldier who shot the Palestinian, and by chance they met again. The dean expressed his grief, as during the demonstration, terrorists were shooting and throwing rocks, and a stray bullet hit the Palestinian boy. After the dean told him this, they embraced, reconciled, and became good friends).
5. The wall (or should I say fence, as it is ninety percent fence) saves lives. A fence is a lot better than letting suicide bombers in. 1. The partition plan has nothing to do with claims formulated much earlier. The zionistic demand reached from the Mediterranean to the line of the Hedschas railway. That included all of what was Palestine when Israel was founded.
2. Israel is not a part of Palestine. When Palestine was divided into Palestine and Transjordan, Israel did not exist yet. And there is no such thing as an original Palestinian Arab state, since all borders in the region were drawn arbitrarily by the colonial powers after the downfall of the Ottoman Empire to prevent the Arabs to gain an independent unified state. divide et impera was the motto then to keep the Arabs from getting control over the region's resources, especially the oil.
3. Well, it sounds like that when one reads or hears books and speeches of various Jews before 1947 and of various Israelis, especially politicians or settlers, ever since then. And today? Would anyone give a penny for any promises or proposals coming from the Israeli government?
4. The hatred filled kids on the Palestinian side are only the logic consequence of five decades of Israeli oppression. What else should they do without any prospect of future? And no apologizes can ever bring back the dead. And the continued use of tanks, bulldozers and war helicopters does not exactly make the Israeli side more trustworthy. And finally: there would be no suicide attacks if the Israelis had respected the Green Line and ended the occupation a long time ago, but instead they sent settlers into the West Bank and Gaza to slowly but gradually push out the original inhabitants.
In the way it is now and especially ever since Netanyahu took office down to Sharon there is no possibility of reconciliation, because the Israeli side just shows no sign that reconciliation is one of their aims at all.
5. The fence runs deep inside occupied territory: it separates families, takes away their economic basis and it is a means of further land grab to satisfy the settlers/voters. And it obviously does not stop suicide attacks. The land enclosed in the wall/fence is the world's largest ever detention camp.You're summed up right here, as you justify persecution. Despicable.It is Judaism that justified persecution from the very beginning (or does the Torah lie there?). Despicable indeed. No wonder that all had to came back and turn against Judaism one day.

The reason for the persecution of Jews has less to do with the nature of the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Roman etc. religions, and a lot more to wih people being people...After they were driven from their (adopted) homeland they were in a minority pretty much wherever they travelled and so became scapegoats and easy targets...Jews have suffered for the same reasons that Hindus and Muslims fought, that Catholics burned Protestants and Protestants burned Catholics - Any society will attempt to survive and improve at the expense of its neighbours...Religion, as one of the most effective devices for cultural differentiation is simply one of the longest lasting and most brutal of the excuses for societal conflict....

Arabs who stayed still remained Palestinians and were pushed from their land.

I don't think this thread was created to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I don't really want to let this sit. The Israelis have offered citizenship to many Arabs; the PLO slaughtered as many of the 'traitors' as they could in cold blood.

1. Since when do the UN speak for anybody? Especially when they vote down those who are actually affected by a particular decision? The UN had no (moral) right to give away land that was already inhabited by others. Why did they not support Arab unity? Why did they enforce the division of the Middle East by the colonial powers? There was no need to create Israel in the Levant, but for ideological reasons the location was chosen with the full knowlegde to spur war.
2. Arabs who stayed still remained Palestinians (which is an artificial word to pretend a division among the Arabs) and were pushed from their land.
3. Given the circumstances the declaration of Israeli independence was a very clear and wilful declaration of war.1. Interesting. so the UN speak for everyone, only now, when he against Israel?
2. arabs who stay remind palastinians, but give up for their "ancient rights", come back to their homes. as such they are citizens of Israel, and most of them has no connection to the palastinians.
3. how that is war declaration? when we ask for peace from all the arabs states? when we give citizenship to all the palstinians who want that? or when we said we act on the values of democracy? come on, that don't make sense even at the first time.
1. America's errors do not justify anone else's errors. And this thread is about Jews.
2. Yes, or would you say that the Levant was anything else but inhabited by a large number of Arabs and a small number of Jews (between 5 and 10 percent) for 1500 years?
3. I know a lot. And the Jews obviously showed the very same nationalism and racism from the second half of the 19th century on just as anyone else in Europe at that time. And they transported their attitude towards "the others" to the Levant when they created Israel.
1. america, europe and all the arabs state. what maybe that easy to forget that, when you attack only Israel.
2. and you know how they did that? conquered the area in force, enfore the religion of Islam on the natives, and kill almost all the other people.
3. how did the jews was nationalist when they even don't had state? in that time the jews only try to get jobs, move to the cities, and merry with christians, like every other european. the fact is that the europeans didn't like that idea, and thought we going to still their jobs, their homes and their wifes. that make them be more nationalist and racist, much like now when the muslims do as same in europe.
1. Cleared? How? Has the Torah been re-written?
2. Again, has the Torah been re-written? And were is the connective attitude of Judaism in the conquest of Canaan, when Judaism was just newly created? And where in the Torah does Yahweh show any love for those who do not worship him? Where in the Torah do the followers of Yahweh not demonize all others?
4. And that's why Samarians were not accounted real Jews, because although they also worshipped Yahweh they did not in the same way as the "real" Jews following the Temple authority? All the dealings between Jews and surrounding peoples show very clearly how non-connective they were. Even after the destruction of the temple the Jews kept their (ideological and physical) isolation from and distance to the societies in which they lived in the diaspora. It is very well understandable why others became suspicious about Jews over the centuries in ancient as well as in modern times.1. you know? cleared? like we talked on that too many, already?
2. now that is weird. when jewish try to say he did, excatly what every one else did before some years, you call it "the mistakes of others don't give you the right" or "learn from history". now you attack the judaism for something that happend 3500 years ago! only you always say "don't claim for state in Israel, only because of the bible". now you take the bible as prove to evil act of jewish?
4. the samarians as no connection to the jewish. when the jewish enforce to live their homeland at first, the samarians come to replace them (populotion transfer). when the jewish back the samarian try to connect the jewish who was the powerful in the area, and secussed some times, but at last the religious people afraid that It make us coltural death, and they prohibid that.
1. The partition plan has nothing to do with claims formulated much earlier. The zionistic demand reached from the Mediterranean to the line of the Hedschas railway. That included all of what was Palestine when Israel was founded.
2. Israel is not a part of Palestine. When Palestine was divided into Palestine and Transjordan, Israel did not exist yet. And there is no such thing as an original Palestinian Arab state, since all borders in the region were drawn arbitrarily by the colonial powers after the downfall of the Ottoman Empire to prevent the Arabs to gain an independent unified state. divide et impera was the motto then to keep the Arabs from getting control over the region's resources, especially the oil.
3. Well, it sounds like that when one reads or hears books and speeches of various Jews before 1947 and of various Israelis, especially politicians or settlers, ever since then. And today? Would anyone give a penny for any promises or proposals coming from the Israeli government?
5. The fence runs deep inside occupied territory: it separates families, takes away their economic basis and it is a means of further land grab to satisfy the settlers/voters. And it obviously does not stop suicide attacks. The land enclosed in the wall/fence is the world's largest ever detention camp.1. the zionist never try to claim for all the land. their Idea was to defend the judaism by create state for him. true that some of the jewish was radical religous, and they want all the land, but they was few. the arabs was the ones who was against every partition plan, and claim for the whole area. why now that is fine with you?
2. so, what the problem with the UN plan? just another more plan to divide the area. but no, you against that because that gave land to the jewish. I don't need to say that whole the arab states, get independece just year before Israel, at the same way exactly.
3. except from the radical righties, and the public who think that terror is monsterous thing, we don't had any racism or else against the arabs. interesting, that again, you read books only from one side on the politic, and thing we all as same. and that is racism.
5. that is just one example of the ways the right destroyed left ideas. when the labour wanted to build a fence they placed it on the green line. now when sharon get out from gaza strip, I remind that the left want to do it first when the arabs take responsability on the area.
but again, when you just take one politic side Ideas, and think we all as same, you nothing but racist.
It is Judaism that justified persecution from the very beginning (or does the Torah lie there?). Despicable indeed. No wonder that all had to came back and turn against Judaism one day.
first, I alredy talked about the bible thing.
second, you ignore bible Ideas as "love the other as yourself".

finaly, I already talked about the reasons to the anti-semitism. but tell that we make it at first, is much alike man who beat his wife and sais that this her fault. in both of the cases, you find the reasons only after you did that, and then choose to blame the victim.

"Why always the Jews?"

Hey ... anyone who invented Motza! ;)

agree, but most of the people love to ignore the evil acts of the minority, as terror, using of civilians like live defence, and speaches that increase the hate.
I wrote that pharase, only because you use the majority thing as claim.

Sorry, my fault, I wasn't clear. I wasn't using the term majority in a moral way, what I meant was that if Israel was a Muslim-majority state (and so the government was muslim) and Palestine Jewish-majority then I'd be opposed just the same. What I meant to say was that if Muslims were doing what Israel is doing now I'd still oppose it.


I can agree with you here. but first that excuses are part of patriotism, nationalism and radicalism in every state. as exemple see what many american answer for the ones who criticize USA actions in Iraq.
second many people can't stand in criticism that come for long time, and look like she she always on one side. when something look "un-fair", most of us will want to be un-fair to the other side. that one of the things that make hate grow up.

I don't think we had more reasons to argue now.

Agreed, thanks for actually debating calmly and rationally on the subject. Oh, and FWIW I do realise that there are some who use anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism (Ankher being one proable example on here). Unfortunately some people on both sides of the debate fail to realise that the Israeli government and the Jewish people are two separate entities.

*despicable antisemite bullshit*
Has the Torah been re-written?
*more inane jew-hating drivel*


Have you read the Torah? No!
Then you'd know that we jews aren't "the best people", from what most people think whenever they talk about the "chosen people"
What this means, is that we were chosen to receive the Torah, the word of g.d. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean we are more pretentious, stronger, richer or anything else. That's just made up in your warped and insecure mind.

So yes, the "chosen people" theory HAS been cleared up.

Might I add that we jews do not blackmail anyone into converting "or else you go to hell" ?

I'm not writing this for your sorry sake, because you're hopeless. But at least, other people won't be poisoned by your utter ignorance.

What I meant to say was that if Muslims were doing what Israel is doing now I'd still oppose it.
<snip>
Unfortunately some people on both sides of the debate fail to realise that the Israeli government and the Jewish people are two separate entities.

It's what everyone says, but at the end of the day, one nation is singled out in most newsfeeds, on the radio, on telly, on the net. I'll give you a clue, it's neither Iran or North Korea. AND ESPECIALLY NOT SUDAN OR CHECHNYA.

A government represents at least 51% of the total population of any democratic regime. I know many americans "feel sorry" about their president, and wish the opposite, I do the same with chirac, but that's just the hard, logic facts. Dictature of the masses!

Have you read the Torah? No!
Then you'd know that we jews aren't "the best people", from what most people think whenever they talk about the "chosen people"
What this means, is that we were chosen to receive the Torah, the word of g.d. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean we are more pretentious, stronger, richer or anything else. That's just made up in your warped and insecure mind.
So yes, the "chosen people" theory HAS been cleared up.
Might I add that we jews do not blackmail anyone into converting "or else you go to hell" ?
I'm not writing this for your sorry sake, because you're hopeless. But at least, other people won't be poisoned by your utter ignorance.Yes, I have read the Torah. Every word of it. And it is the single most hateful piece of literature ever written. And even now that you say that "we were chosen to receive the Torah, the word of god." does that not say the others were not worthy of Yahweh's word? And do the Jews not believe so? At least the Torah says so and puts such meanings into what Yahweh has allegedly said. And does the Torah not constantly demonize those who have not received it or do not share the beliefs expressed in it? How many times are people punished in the Torah for not following the "will" of Yahweh or for not supporting those chosen by him? And do Jews not believe that the deeds of Yahweh are justified even if they are evil? (That is what makes Jews evil, too, and all Christians and Muslims who believe so as well)
PS: about the word "Antisemite": that Jews are using this word to mark someone who is against Judaism, only shows that Jews consider themselves to be the only rightful heirs of Shem and thus the only ones to be worthy of Yahweh. And it is clearly a racist pun against all who are also Semites (e.g. all Arabs) but are not considered equal by Jews.

Why always the Jews? Because they have brought the evil of Yahweh-style monotheism into the world, and they still dwell on it to justify their actions until this very day.

OK, I'm going to respond to this. I'm going to respond calmy and rationally to the points you raise. Please try to do the same.

It's what everyone says, but at the end of the day, one nation is singled out in most newsfeeds, on the radio, on telly, on the net. I'll give you a clue, it's neither Iran or North Korea. AND ESPECIALLY NOT SUDAN OR CHECHNYA.

Personally I oppose what is happening in Sudan and Chechnya just as much as what is happening in Israel, more so, probably. I also oppose the actions of the governments of Belarus, Venezuala, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar and North Korea to name a few. I honestly fail to see how what news agencies choose to report on in any way reflects on my own personal views.

A government represents at least 51% of the total population of any democratic regime. I know many americans "feel sorry" about their president, and wish the opposite, I do the same with chirac, but that's just the hard, logic facts. Dictature of the masses!

Well governments do not repesent at least 51% of the population, in some systems they may represent 51% of voters but in most they do not even represent that. UK governments almost never have even close to 50% of the electorate supporting them. As for Israel, Likud got 29.4% of the vote, with a 68.5% turnout, last time out. That's 20.1% of the total population, not 51%.

Even if Sharon has or had 51% support, however, that would still only be 51% of Israel, not the Jewish people as a whole. Hence my original point, the government of Israel is not the same as the Jewish people.

Have you ever thought that Jews are mere people, and thry just so happened (being stereotypical here) to pick a fight with the biggest kid on the block, meaning Islam, when these are the areas that hold all the cards.

Referring to biblical days, Jews were a major part of the population of th time. In that relative time period and area, the main ethnicitie was Jewish. You had the
Jews from Judea and Isreal
Arabic nomads
African tribes
and the Gentiles who infiltrated all.

Yes, I have read the Torah. Every word of it. And it is the single most hateful piece of literature ever written. And even now that you say that "we were chosen to receive the Torah, the word of god." does that not say the others were not worthy of Yahweh's word? And do the Jews not believe so? At least the Torah says so and puts such meanings into what Yahweh has allegedly said. And does the Torah not constantly demonize those who have not received it or do not share the beliefs expressed in it? How many times are people punished in the Torah for not following the "will" of Yahweh or for not supporting those chosen by him? And do Jews not believe that the deeds of Yahweh are justified even if they are evil? (That is what makes Jews evil, too, and all Christians and Muslims who believe so as well)
PS: about the word "Antisemite": that Jews are using this word to mark someone who is against Judaism, only shows that Jews consider themselves to be the only rightful heirs of Shem and thus the only ones to be worthy of Yahweh. And it is clearly a racist pun against all who are also Semites (e.g. all Arabs) but are not considered equal by Jews.

Why always the Jews? Because they have brought the evil of Yahweh-style monotheism into the world, and they still dwell on it to justify their actions until this very day.

The hebrews accepted the torah. The other nations didn't. So, you think that abandoning polytheism and idolatry is the main cause jews are hated worldwide?

Comedy gold all year round! I thought the single most hateful piece of literature would at least be "mein kampf", but it's true that even your grocery list must contain more flamebait than hitler's book. You really need serious therapy. Or you're 11 years old.

For the few uninformed fools who try to delegitimize antisemitism by spinning its etymology around : (ankher, don't bother, it's too hard for you, and it's full of your kryptonite : evidence)

from wikipedia.org :
Etymology and usage
The political writer Wilhelm Marr is credited with coining the German word Antisemitismus in 1873, at a time when racial science was fashionable in Germany but religious prejudice was not. This term was offered as an alternative to the older German word Judenhass, meaning Jew-hatred. The aim of the effort to rename "Jew-hatred" into Anti-Semitism, was to give "Jew-hatred" a more scientific basis, however, it was never intended to eliminate the concept of hatred towards Jews based on the Christian conspiracies and legends so popular with the general population. In his book, The Victory of Judaism over Germanicism (1879), Marr took up secular racist ideas of Arthur de Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of Human Races (1853, though direct influence is debatable). Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the League of Anti-Semites (Antisemiten-Liga), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country. The 1870s were times of heightened social tensions in Germany due to the October 1873 stock market crash.

So far as can be ascertained, the word was first printed in 1881. In that year Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the "Neue Freie Presse" of January. The related word semitism was coined around 1885. See also the coinage of the term Palestinian by Germans to refer to the nation or people known as Jews, as distinct from the religion of Judaism.

Misnomer
The term has always referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and not to other people who speak semitic languages (e.g., Arabs) and this has been the only use of this word for more than a century. In recent decades some people have argued that the term anti-Semitism should be extended to include prejudice against Arabs, since Arabic is a semitic language. However, this usage has not been widely adopted. In that there are few instances of prejudice against both Arabs and Jews to the exclusion of other races or nationalities, and in fact many more instances of antagonism between Jews and Arabs than of a specific bias against both groups together, there would seem to be little need for a word to describe such a prejudice, and to redefine 'antisemitism' would result in robbing the word of any usefulness.

Despite the use of the prefix "anti," the terms Semitic and Anti-Semitic are not antonyms. To avoid the confusion of the misnomer, many writers on the subject (such as Emil Fackenheim of the Hebrew University) now favor the unhyphenated term antisemitism.

An alternative term, "Judeophobia", stands for fear or irrational hatred of Jews. It was invented by Leon Pinsker and first appeared in his 1882 pamphlet Autoemancipation (text). As a professional physician, Pinsker preferred the medical term as he knew that a combination of mutually exclusive assertions is a characteristic of a psychological disorder.

Personally I oppose what is happening in Sudan and Chechnya just as much as what is happening in Israel, more so, probably. I also oppose the actions of the governments of Belarus, Venezuala, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar and North Korea to name a few. I honestly fail to see how what news agencies choose to report on in any way reflects on my own personal views.

That's exactly the problem. There is a huge bias in favor of the palestinians in the media, and it is the main weapon most of our enemies have always used, lies, misinformation. Come on, calling a gun-toting fanatic a "militant" ? Everything is played out to make one side look good, and the other side despicable. Note another interesting paradox, jews control the media, but still manage to show israel as a fanatic, racist state that eats baby palestinians every morning, while hamas and hizbullah are heroic freedom fighters.
How can you not create bias with such reporting? I have already talked to arabs who actually believe that jews capture goyim and bleed them to death, in order to cook matzoh bread. French-born, educated, and rich arabs who nonetheless believe anything that comes out of al-jazeera, al-manar (the latest hot debate on this channel was whether Israel exported AIDS within international trade agreements, through food shipments...), or many other fundamental islamic TV stations. I think I know what you're going to answer, but this is a completely different debate from "TV and video games makes children violent". When it is shown as documentary instead of fiction, as an unbiased news piece instead of propaganda, then yes, it will reflect on a lot of people's opinions.

Well governments do not repesent at least 51% of the population, in some systems they may represent 51% of voters but in most they do not even represent that. UK governments almost never have even close to 50% of the electorate supporting them. As for Israel, Likud got 29.4% of the vote, with a 68.5% turnout, last time out. That's 20.1% of the total population, not 51%.

Even if Sharon has or had 51% support, however, that would still only be 51% of Israel, not the Jewish people as a whole. Hence my original point, the government of Israel is not the same as the Jewish people.

I'll trust you for the numbers. Any government needs the support of the majority to legiferate, or execute. If that wasn't the case, there would be a civil war everyday in the streets, and I'm not talking about the 8000 nutjobs in the gaza strip who endanger IDF soldiers' lives with their obstination.

The next elections, though, will decide whether Sharon and his 800 or so consecutive coalitions will stay or leave. Yes, it's political intrigue at its best... Does it need to be compared to 50 years of dictatorial rule under arafat?

But then again, what does that mean? That Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried? (Churchill)

About the Israel/Palestinian problem. The UN mandated that two independent states be crated in what was the British mandate of Palestine. However in 1948 Israel declared independence and using paramilitary forces claimed over 77% of the land designated by the UN as Palestine and expelled over half of the indigenous population, the cleared land was settled by Eastern European Jewish immigrants, who also made up a bulk of independent Israel.

The justification of the Israeli state wasn't political or social but based on the Torah's assertion that Israel was the promised land of the Jews.

If we want to talk about who started what in the current Israeli/ Palestinian conflict it has to lay with the unilateral declaration of an independent Israel in 1948, which was condemned by and went against the original UN mandate.

Israel since then has ignored every UN mandate confirming the right of Palestinian people of self determination.

Yes, an independent Israel was mandated and supported by the UN, but it was supposed to be alongside an independent Palestianin state with Jerusalem as an international city. The original land divisions were orginally along the lines of who actually occupaied what land, which is why when Israel declared independence the expelled the Palestinains and occupied their land, to give themselves extra living space. It is also worthy to note that Zionist terrorists assassinated the original UN negotiators shortly before declaring independence, declaring that the plan crafted by the UN was giving away the promised land given by god to the Jews.

Both sides in the conflict have acted ignorantly, selfishly, violently and with no regard for simple human rights and dignity. In my opinion neither side deserves to have a state and it would have been better to leave the Turks in place. With all of the violence and poor faith shown by both the Israelis and Palestinians they have both shown that they are not deserving of governing their own affairs.

That's my personal opinion anyhow.

For the entire situation from the UN's official persepective: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

That's exactly the problem. There is a huge bias in favor of the palestinians in the media, and it is the main weapon most of our enemies have always used, lies, misinformation. Come on, calling a gun-toting fanatic a "militant" ? Everything is played out to make one side look good, and the other side despicable. Note another interesting paradox, jews control the media, but still manage to show israel as a fanatic, racist state that eats baby palestinians every morning, while hamas and hizbullah are heroic freedom fighters.
How can you not create bias with such reporting? I have already talked to arabs who actually believe that jews capture goyim and bleed them to death, in order to cook matzoh bread. French-born, educated, and rich arabs who nonetheless believe anything that comes out of al-jazeera, al-manar (the latest hot debate on this channel was whether Israel exported AIDS within international trade agreements, through food shipments...), or many other fundamental islamic TV stations. I think I know what you're going to answer, but this is a completely different debate from "TV and video games makes children violent". When it is shown as documentary instead of fiction, as an unbiased news piece instead of propaganda, then yes, it will reflect on a lot of people's opinions.

My answer is that I'm not going to debate whether or not the mainstream media are biased for or against Israel. The reason is that I simply don't care. I don't rely on the mainstream media for news and so it's irrelevant. Besides, bias is always in the eye of the beholder. I've seen plenty of example of people from opposite viewpoints citing the same article as being biased against their view.

Like I said, though, I don't rely on the kind of news sources you are referring to for information (certainly not al-Jazeera) or if I do it's only as a heads up, followed by research of other sources. I know they're biased, it's in their very nature as mainstream media. They need to appeal to the lowest common denominator and so tend to tell people what they want to hear. Hence they reinforce preconceived ideas when good journalism should be about discrediting them.

Since the original issue was my statement that if the roles of Palestine and Israel were reversed I'd still oppose what is happening I still do not see the relevance, however.


I'll trust you for the numbers. Any government needs the support of the majority to legiferate, or execute. If that wasn't the case, there would be a civil war everyday in the streets, and I'm not talking about the 8000 nutjobs in the gaza strip who endanger IDF soldiers' lives with their obstination.

The next elections, though, will decide whether Sharon and his 800 or so consecutive coalitions will stay or leave. Yes, it's political intrigue at its best... Does it need to be compared to 50 years of dictatorial rule under arafat?

But then again, what does that mean? That Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried? (Churchill)

I'll cite the source regarding the numbers, I know you said you'd trust them but I should have cited it first time round and it'll allow comparison:

Election results: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
Turnout: http://judaism.about.com/library/1_politics/elections/bl_elections2003_summary.htm

Anyway, I'm not disputing the fact that Sharon was democratically elected, he clearly was, by a considerable margin, and for a second time which shows a support for his past decisions. My point, though, was that it is possible, and I would argue necessary, to separate the actions of the Israeli government, even one supported by the Israeli populous, from the nature of the Jewish population worldwide. So disagreeing with the Israeli government should not, in any way, lead one to pass judgement on the Jewish people, nor should it be interpreted as necessarily being intended as such.

Greeks - Persia was conquered by the Macedonian Greek leader Alexander the Great who established a huge empire that included Palestine. The Greeks attempted to implant Greek culture throughout their domain and in 168 B.C. rededicated the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem to Zeus.

However, they treated the Jews no differently than they did any other conquered people.



Sorry to say this but Macedonians weren't Greek..

1)right, there is evil acts every where. but still, every nation has a state, and the political world system built on countries. what let you think that jewish has to be the only ones who has no countrey?
if I understood corect, you say also that established states, Is always mistake. what better system do you know, or why do you think Israel need to be the first to change?


Because they're DOING EVIL. Evil acts need to STOP. NOW. I don't care if all the other races have slaughtered people, doesn't mean the Jews should become the next NAZIs 'cause "Everyone else is doing it."


2)you see wrong the ethical question. the truth is that we buy swalows area, that the arabs didn't care, and develope it to farms, forests, and others.
the poor farmers who loose their land, get easily jobs in our farms. we gave them more technology, more modern lifes, and much better economy. they don't loose anything while they be with us.


Don't care? Explain the bombings.


3)wrong again. jewish never said that our "race" is better than any other. and if I back to my previous post: what reasons you see for the fact europe is divided, and USA isn't part of them? what reason you see for all state in the earth?


I never said 'better'. I said 'racist'. The US and Europe have different styles of government.


4)the jews never believed in other lifes, not any most of the other religions. the jewish never want to "nuke the world".
personaly I'm not for mass destruction weapons, but still there is no connection to the argument. come on, I don't see you said that north korea or Iran had no right to state.
don't say again "evil acts", you even can't tell what you mean by that.

They haven't wanted to nuke the world YET. But they're in the group of religions that thinks that this isn't the only life. Anyone who thinks they can come back to life after being vaporized by a nuclear war should NOT be able to -start- said nuclear war.

There's no such thing as a right to state.

Umm since when has there been a "jewish race" anyways?

There's been no jewish race, we're are only a religion, and without us, there would be Islam, Muslim, Christianity or any Crossed religion

"Five Israelis have been killed and six injured in an attack by Palestinian militants on a checkpoint on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt.

Reports said that explosives went off in a tunnel under the checkpoint in Rafah and a second blast followed shortly afterwards.

Hamas said it carried out the raid, in conjunction with a group called the Fatah Hawks. Two militants were killed.

Hours later Israeli helicopter gunships fired rockets at targets in Gaza City." from bbc..

Now a) I wouldn't classify these guys as freedom fighters, why? Maybe cos the peace talks were once actually going somewhere. Now these fucks just had to kill some evil Israelis

b) Israeli helicopters firing rockets at targets (random most likely)@ Gaza That's even more retarded than action a. It's clearly nothing but a revenge. The sarcastic part is that this will only create more freedom fighters/militants/martyrs/terrorists..

c) Too bad the "normal people" don't get a say. I'm sure most palestinians and israelis just want to get on with their lives.. :headbang:

d) nevermind.. apparently israeli army killed some palestinian girl last friday.. so a) guys got their freedom fighter status back.. in my eyes anyways..

There's been no jewish race, we're are only a religion, and without us, there would be Islam, Muslim, Christianity or any Crossed religion

The world would be so much better place with out religions.. and nationalism..

With out us blah blah blah..

About the Israel/Palestinian problem. The UN mandated that two independent states be crated in what was the British mandate of Palestine. However in 1948 Israel declared independence and using paramilitary forces claimed over 77% of the land designated by the UN as Palestine and expelled over half of the indigenous population, the cleared land was settled by Eastern European Jewish immigrants, who also made up a bulk of independent Israel.

The justification of the Israeli state wasn't political or social but based on the Torah's assertion that Israel was the promised land of the Jews.

If we want to talk about who started what in the current Israeli/ Palestinian conflict it has to lay with the unilateral declaration of an independent Israel in 1948, which was condemned by and went against the original UN mandate.

Israel since then has ignored every UN mandate confirming the right of Palestinian people of self determination.

Yes, an independent Israel was mandated and supported by the UN, but it was supposed to be alongside an independent Palestianin state with Jerusalem as an international city. The original land divisions were orginally along the lines of who actually occupaied what land, which is why when Israel declared independence the expelled the Palestinains and occupied their land, to give themselves extra living space. It is also worthy to note that Zionist terrorists assassinated the original UN negotiators shortly before declaring independence, declaring that the plan crafted by the UN was giving away the promised land given by god to the Jews.

Both sides in the conflict have acted ignorantly, selfishly, violently and with no regard for simple human rights and dignity. In my opinion neither side deserves to have a state and it would have been better to leave the Turks in place. With all of the violence and poor faith shown by both the Israelis and Palestinians they have both shown that they are not deserving of governing their own affairs.

That's my personal opinion anyhow.

For the entire situation from the UN's official persepective: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
you had some facts wrong.
first, Israel indipendence was by the UN. the arabs didn't accept that and refused to establish the state the UN gave them. despite that, they attack Israel in response to destroy the jewish state. they loose, they get nothing, and they stay refugees. the arabs state neither let them join to them as citizens, nor give them land for state on the area they had. they prefer to try and destroy Israel in another wars. they keep loose, they take back some areas in peace agreements, and the palastinians are still refugees.
second, the state justifaction is not just the bible. the anti-semitism and the holocust prove that jewish need a state for themselves, so they can defend themselves.
also the UN in 1947, and balfur (britain minister) in 1917, gave agreement for the state. in adittion, the jewish develope the area for almost 60 years before they get countrey. we had all the base for state and independence.
third, the israeli-arab conflict didn't begin in 1948. he began in 1920, when the arabs attacked the jewish in jerusalem for national reasons.
forth, Israel accept the palastinian right for state, despite most of the arabs, who keep ignore the jewish right for state. the arabs, didn't accepted the palastinian right to state and they refused to help them or gave them areas for countrey. the fact palastinians don't had a country is mostly arrafat fault, because he ignore the peace agreements, that gave them state.
fifth, I don't know from where you get the Idea of the UN negotitors assassanations, but that never happened. also the palstinians never move in force from their homes. they ran away for the arab states, thet take the area and gave them home back. that actions was despite join to Israel as citizens, and stay in their homes. Israel ask them to, but they refused.
six, from where you get the turks Idea? that is the most stupid thing I heard, than someone suggest to nuke whole the middle east.

you had some facts wrong.
the fact palastinians don't had a country is mostly arrafat fault, because he ignore the peace agreements, that gave them state.

that's partly true. however jerusalem is a holy city for muslims too so they want a share of it as well, something israel isn't ready to accept..