NationStates Jolt Archive


why do people hate muslims?

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Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 15:13
read this and tell me if this man deserved these responses (i could debunk half the bullshit the anti-muslim racists are saying easily but i want you all to see this before i do, in short shit like this is why i hate people)

There seems to be a growing callous disregard for Muslim life in this country.

Almost daily reports are given of the dead and injured American and British invaders of Iraq but little or no mention of the more than 100,00 innocent Iraqi citizens killed by America bombs and attacks.

Palestinians were called "filthy animals" and it was said that a bomb should be dropped on all of them on MSNBC's "Imus in the Morning" show recently.

Syndicated columnist Thomas Sowell, a black conservative whose column is published by The Times, justified the murder of an unarmed Iraqi fighter in a mosque by a U.S Marine in Fallujah. I have been proud of my Marine Corps service, but I will be ashamed of the Marine Corps if the guilty Marine is not punished.

To my sad surprise, an African-American/Japanese Buddhist sent me a petition with 38,513 signatures of people who don't think the Marine should be punished. She agreed.

Are Americans trying to bring a violent clash of civilizations in America?

wow that sounded intelligent, well thought out and fair to ME


here is the SHIT he got


Khalil Abdel Alim (letter, Nov. 21) expresses his alarm regarding American disinterest in Muslim deaths. He further states 100,000 Iraqi innocents were killed by American bombs. Where did the 100,000 number come from? How was the data collected?

Deaths could include accidents, disease, infant mortality, innocents killed by terrorist Iraqis and Muslims from Syria and other Islamic countries. Also, dead terrorists themselves could be included.

This seems to be the case and Muslims have little concern with their lives by using suicide murderers.

I saw nothing in the letter showing concern for Americans dying daily by Muslim attacks. These are deaths that have been occurring for nearly half a century and were emphasized by the second World Trade Center demolition. Now the Iraqi situation has led to relentless attacks on innocent soldiers there doing rebuilding and other helpful things.

War is a form of hell. People die. Who goes around the world killing people? As far as I can tell, where there is death, destruction and trouble, there are Muslims.

Amazing. After half a century of Muslim attacks on American interests, Alim asks if America is trying to bring a clash of civilizations in America. The question to me implies that he is a Muslim first and an American next, and in the event of a clash he will be on the Muslim side.



Remember, if it isnt american, it doesnt matter
this is just dumb


Khalil Abdel Alim (Nov. 21 letter) is upset that a Marine killed a wounded terrorist. I wonder if he is outraged when Muslims cut the heads off of innocent people. or if he was when Muslims took over an elementary school in Russia, and then murdered schoolchildren. What about when Palestinians who blow up Israeli buses filled with women and children?

I challenge Alim to provide a source other than Al-Jazeera to back up his claim that more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi citizens have been killed. Sadly, I don't have the space to talk about honor killings and the lovely way Muslims treat women. Islam is a religion of peace? I beg to differ.



now that is just plain stupid, months ago i found the number 100,000 estimated by a GENERAL from the bombing ALONE and that was when the official death toll was counted at 15,000 civilians, now its like what double that?

and the rest is racist ignorant bullshit
Dostanuot Loj
02-12-2004, 15:18
Well, of course he didn't deserve it. And I totally agree with you.
Unfortunatly, people suck.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:19
I would have to say some of it is legit (if you are going to throw big figures at people you better have your sources … that includes news programs) but beside that point yeah there is a lot of BS in those articles

I think a lot of it stems from the us against them mentality … people have a tendency to naturally look down upon those that they are fighting currently (I know a lot of it is more engrained then that) but it is made prominent by the war currently going on

I don’t know if it was a survival tool or just a tool we invented to help us from having to realize the people killed (sort of the … they deserved it all of them … or the they are not fully people attitude that goes around through the ages)

Also doesn’t hurt that the Christian religion has been fighting the Muslims for ages …

So I would say a combination of factors :)
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 15:21
I would have to say some of it is legit (if you are going to throw big figures at people you better have your sources … that includes news programs) but beside that point yeah there is a lot of BS in those articles

I think a lot of it stems from the us against them mentality … people have a tendency to naturally look down upon those that they are fighting currently (I know a lot of it is more engrained then that) but it is made prominent by the war currently going on

I don’t know if it was a survival tool or just a tool we invented to help us from having to realize the people killed (sort of the … they deserved it all of them … or the they are not fully people attitude that goes around through the ages)

Also doesn’t hurt that the Christian religion has been fighting the Muslims for ages …

So I would say a combination of factors :)
i think you are reading a little too much into "alot of americans are ignorant assholes"
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:23
i think you are reading a little too much into "alot of americans are ignorant assholes"
Not arguing (though I put you in that category too) I am just trying to point out why it is worse right now

But you don’t have to think about it … no sir… you sit there content with your stereotyping, it’s what your comfortable with
Harmonia Mortus
02-12-2004, 15:28
What I have a problem with is people ASSUMING that just because a few Americans are, as you say, ignorant assholes, that every single one of us is. Did you know that EVERY country has ignorant assholes in it? So does every minority. Its an amazing fact, but there are British assholes, Jewish assholes, Mexican assholes, and Eskimo assholes! Everywhere you go, you can find an asshole, even if there arent any people! There are, in fact, ANIMAL assholes.
I LIKE Muslims, I have a friend whos family escaped from Iraq six years ago, who, and this is the funny part, SUPPORTS the Iraq war. Is SHE a racist? Against herself?
No, the only Muslims I have a problem with are the ones who blow themselves up in the streets and kill innocent people on purpose, or fly planes into crowded buildings.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:30
What I have a problem with is people ASSUMING that just because a few Americans are, as you say, ignorant assholes, that every single one of us is. Did you know that EVERY country has ignorant assholes in it? So does every minority. Its an amazing fact, but there are British assholes, Jewish assholes, Mexican assholes, and Eskimo assholes! Everywhere you go, you can find an asshole, even if there arent any people! There are, in fact, ANIMAL assholes.
I LIKE Muslims, I have a friend whos family escaped from Iraq six years ago, who, and this is the funny part, SUPPORTS the Iraq war. Is SHE a racist? Against herself?
No, the only Muslims I have a problem with are the ones who blow themselves up in the streets and kill innocent people on purpose, or fly planes into crowded buildings.
We all know he is an idiot don’t get too worked up

He comes here bitching about Americans stereotyping by stereotyping Americans lol

Logical? I think not

But that does not seem to bother him that
“Americans are idiots” really is not less of a generalization then “All Muslims are terrorists”


Lol what a silly boy that chess squares
Sean O Mac
02-12-2004, 15:32
I think it's a double edged sword. Not just the Americans but us British are just as bad (if not worse) because we quite easily forget the number of Iraqis who have been killed in Iraq and yet the moment one of our soldier gets injured let alone killed, it is read out on FiveLive or on the front of the Daily Mirror. This is shown by the over-reaction to the news of Ken Bigley.

By the same token, I think some (but by no means most Muslims) do tend to ignore the deaths of people at the hands of Muslims. This does not mean that they are justifying any of these things but little mention seems to be made, unless someone like Paxman, forces it to be made of the deaths of Israeli civillians etc. at the hands of Muslims.

This is just a natural phenomena, as we tend to think of our own (family, town, country etc.) before others. This is just the way of the world. Face it.
The disillusioned many
02-12-2004, 15:44
Well, of course he didn't deserve it. And I totally agree with you.
Unfortunatly, people suck.
I agree too,
people do definitely suck, we all have the same number of chromosomes, we're all equal, but unfortunately some 'people' don't see it that way.
Dostanuot Loj
02-12-2004, 15:46
Other then what the Muslim ex-Marine said, I see nowhere where Americans are stereotyped. So, what's the point of that? So what, everyone's stereotyped, it's a fact of life, and totally sucks ass.

Although, I have seen ALOT of anti-Islam stuff among Americans every time I go to the US. But I've only been through Newark, and in Miami/Ft.Lauderdale, so I may have just been around the wrong Americans?

And by the way, I have no problems with Muslims, Islam itself is another story (And mainly for reasons that no one else cares about). In fact, in my opion the best looking woman at my school is a Muslim (What can " say, that head scarf thingy's just downright pretty).
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 15:47
As usual, I'm going to babble. I contest first, the fact that American's hate Muslims. I certainly don't. I've met some really cool people who are Islamic, but as with anything else involving people it is a case-by-case basis.

There are certain questions that many have about that number of 100,000. First off, it's the median in a theoretical estimate, and the median isn't always the actual number. A criticism I've heard also is that this number also includes insurgent deaths. A number that is thrown around a lot is about 15,000-20,000, and this number is frankly, far more realisitc. It is a tradgedy that this many people have died, but, it's war, and bad shit happens.

Islam is in need of something Christianity had hundreds of years ago. Islam needs it's own reformation. A reformation introducing more liberal ideas into Islam would be a very good thing, and would probably help the situation of women in many a muslim nation.

In short, CS, make an argument instead of randomly insultig people.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:50
Other then what the Muslim ex-Marine said, I see nowhere where Americans are stereotyped. So, what's the point of that? So what, everyone's stereotyped, it's a fact of life, and totally sucks ass.

Although, I have seen ALOT of anti-Islam stuff among Americans every time I go to the US. But I've only been through Newark, and in Miami/Ft.Lauderdale, so I may have just been around the wrong Americans?

And by the way, I have no problems with Muslims, Islam itself is another story (And mainly for reasons that no one else cares about). In fact, in my opion the best looking woman at my school is a Muslim (What can " say, that head scarf thingy's just downright pretty).

I was talking about chess squares read his second post in this thread :p

Let me quote it


i think you are reading a little too much into "alot of americans are ignorant assholes"

He himself is mad at people being idiots and stereotyping Muslims … and in the next breath goes ahead and stereotypes Americans

That’s what we like to call hypocritical
(Ohh and if the quote is off I am sorry … Microsoft word keeps trying to correct chesses spelling errors but I think I got it)
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 15:52
Not arguing (though I put you in that category too) I am just trying to point out why it is worse right now

But you don’t have to think about it … no sir… you sit there content with your stereotyping, it’s what your comfortable with
you win yourself a seat there
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:52
p the situation of women in many a muslim nation.

In short, CS, make an argument instead of randomly insultig people.
Not quite sure he is capable … but let’s hope he is
Sean O Mac
02-12-2004, 15:53
you win yourself a seat there

I have to agree with Upward, it is you stereotyping ChessSquares.
Dostanuot Loj
02-12-2004, 15:53
I was talking about chess squares read his second post in this thread :p

Let me quote it


He himself is mad at people being idiots and stereotyping Muslims … and in the next breath goes ahead and stereotypes Americans

That’s what we like to call hypocritical
(Ohh and if the quote is off I am sorry … Microsoft word keeps trying to correct chesses spelling errors but I think I got it)


Ah, that makes sense. I was confused where you guys had started arguing the American part, I must have been more interested in other posts then that one and mised that part.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:53
you win yourself a seat there
Ohhh a seat “there” :eek: where is there again?
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 15:54
What I have a problem with is people ASSUMING that just because a few Americans are, as you say, ignorant assholes, that every single one of us is.
what i have a problem with is people not having proper reading comprehension, please quote me when i definately said all. DEFINATIVELY

Did you know that EVERY country has ignorant assholes in it? So does every minority. Its an amazing fact, but there are British assholes, Jewish assholes, Mexican assholes, and Eskimo assholes! Everywhere you go, you can find an asshole, even if there arent any people! There are, in fact, ANIMAL assholes.
which is nice but thats not what we are talking about, nor does it justify it

I LIKE Muslims, I have a friend whos family escaped from Iraq six years ago, who, and this is the funny part, SUPPORTS the Iraq war. Is SHE a racist? Against herself?
for or against the iraqi war is an irrelevant point in this topic, please stay out of this topic until you learn to read or at the very least can be on topic
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 15:55
you win yourself a seat there
How do they? I mean, after all, they just said something about an individual, not a group. And stereotyping involves group concepts, not individuals.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 15:56
let me requote what i said for the apparently subintelligent beings who know how to type but didnt do so well on the reading comprehension part of the SATs


alot of americans are ignorant assholes

emphasis added by me

who can point out when alot turned into all?
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:57
How do they? I mean, after all, they just said something about an individual, not a group. And stereotyping involves group concepts, not individuals.
I “Think” he is trying to group me with the ignorant folks … but he was a bit fuzzy on that. So I wont assume to understand his (her) logic.(sorry don’t actually know chess squares sex … not a dig on you)
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 15:59
let me requote what i said for the apparently subintelligent beings who know how to type but didnt do so well on the reading comprehension part of the SATs


who can point out when alot turned into all?
Hey I never said you said all … where is your reading comprehension gone (unless you are still arguing with that other bloke … if so sorry)
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:00
let me requote what i said for the apparently subintelligent beings who know how to type but didnt do so well on the reading comprehension part of the SATs


who can point out when alot turned into all?
Nor did I ever say you said all.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 16:01
Nor did I ever say you said all.
I think he is still arguing with that other person lol

We are just behind on the times I guess
Sean O Mac
02-12-2004, 16:01
Nor did I ever say you said all.
Nor did I.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:02
Hey I never said you said all … where is your reading comprehension gone (unless you are still arguing with that other bloke … if so sorry)
no i am talking to and about you

lets have a refresher course on what YOU said i said

We all know he is an idiot don’t get too worked up

He comes here bitching about Americans stereotyping by stereotyping Americans lol

Logical? I think not

But that does not seem to bother him that
“Americans are idiots” really is not less of a generalization then “All Muslims are terrorists”


Lol what a silly boy that chess squares

you left out the word all, but in that sentence structure its an implied all, i said alot, which i dont know where you live, but go read some american editorials and other crap that real people write and say and tell me im wrong
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:02
I think he is still arguing with that other person lol

We are just behind on the times I guess
I'm generally confused and lost, so that's no surprise that I am...
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 16:04
I'm generally confused and lost, so that's no surprise that I am...
To quote a movie his logic is “truly dizzying” but I am sure in saying so he will try to insult our intelligence … so predictable (unless he gets scared off by the fact that I said he would … in that case all the better)
Dostanuot Loj
02-12-2004, 16:05
I'm generally confused and lost, so that's no surprise that I am...

Then perhaps the discussion should just drop it and move on?
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 16:06
no i am talking to and about you

lets have a refresher course on what YOU said i said



you left out the word all, but in that sentence structure its an implied all, i said alot, which i dont know where you live, but go read some american editorials and other crap that real people write and say and tell me im wrong
Live in Minnesota (my location on the left) and if you want to be technical you said some but I have a feeling knowing your attitude that you meant all (or at least all but you and the people that immediately agree with your side)
Apocalypse corrupt
02-12-2004, 16:08
read this and tell me if this man deserved these responses (i could debunk half the bullshit the anti-muslim racists are saying easily but i want you all to see this before i do, in short shit like this is why i hate people)


wow that sounded intelligent, well thought out and fair to ME


here is the SHIT he got




Remember, if it isnt american, it doesnt matter
this is just dumb




now that is just plain stupid, months ago i found the number 100,000 estimated by a GENERAL from the bombing ALONE and that was when the official death toll was counted at 15,000 civilians, now its like what double that?

and the rest is racist ignorant bullshitprobably because they have to cut their fore skin
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:09
Thought for the day for CS to consider:

Insulting people rarely changes anyone's mind.
Sean O Mac
02-12-2004, 16:10
probably because they have to cut their fore skin

Bigoted idiot.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 16:11
Thought for the day for CS to consider:

Insulting people rarely changes anyone's mind.
True true ... that’s one thing us dems have to work on ... its expected from the repubs but it drives away the moderates that expect more from us. (not fair no ... but neither is life)
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:12
Live in Minnesota (my location on the left) and if you want to be technical you said some but I have a feeling knowing your attitude that you meant all (or at least all but you and the people that immediately agree with your side)
no, i meant ALOT not ALL, they are different words with different meanings, thanks for assuming what i meant.
hey wernt you insulting my intelligence because i assumed things? guess they wernt so much of an assumption after all eh
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 16:13
Oooh, hate. That's a powerful word. I don't *hate* Muslims.
I do have a problem with people who on one hand shoot from their places of religious worship and on the other hand are offended mightily when we blow those particular buildings into rubble with the shooters inside.
I do have a problem with people who fly civilian airliners full of innocent civilians into civilian buildings (technically, we might consider the Pentagon a valid military target being hit with a planeload of innocent civilians).
While we at least try to minimize civilian casualties in war (remember, we're not carpet bombing whole cities with WW II technology, we're dropping GPS guided bombs right on a particular target).
I have a problem with people who stack their weapons in schools and hospitals, and then get upset when we drop a guided bomb on that target.
I have a problem with people who start a war and then get upset because we come over to their side of the world and try to finish it while at least following some rules (we could have settled the whole thing in 30 minutes with nuclear weapons).
I have a problem with people who accuse us of genocide - if we were going to commit genocide, this all would have been finished 30 minutes after the second plane hit the WTC.
But, no, I don't have a problem with Muslims. Just certain people. And if I was President, this problem would be over 30 minutes after I was sworn in. Yes, over 1 billion people would die, but we wouldn't be reading any more news about radical Islam.

The Mongols in 1258 had the right idea. Sack the place, kill the inhabitants, burn the cities to the ground. Leave only the stench of rotting corpses.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 16:14
Let's see... now why don't people, and this is true just about everywhere on the planet mind you, like muslims?
Could it be because wherever they are, they make trouble?

A short list:

America: 911
Israel: intifadah
Thailand: riots
PRC: riots
the Netherlands: van Gogh
Belgium: Abu Jaja
Indonesia: just a few bombs, on Bali. Lotsa dead tourists.
India: Kashmir
Darfur: ethnic cleansing
Kosovo: trouble
Bosnia: trouble
Philipines: trouble
Russia: killing a couple of hundred school-kids.

Mind you, this is hardly a complete list... but maybe, the 80-90% of the human race who are not muslim would sleep a lot sounder if there were no more muslims on the planet?

Is this opinion not balanced and unfair? I don't deny it. But I also think it is dead-on-target...
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 16:14
no, i meant ALOT not ALL, they are different words with different meanings, thanks for assuming what i meant.
hey wernt you insulting my intelligence because i assumed things? guess they wernt so much of an assumption after all eh
Nope I was insulting you for stereotyping

Difference I am an individual talking about an individual and not because you are a member of a “group” (don’t make me get the dictionary quote)

And it was only in reply to you assuming you knew what I meant ;)
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:15
Oooh, hate. That's a powerful word. I don't *hate* Muslims.
I do have a problem with people who on one hand shoot from their places of religious worship and on the other hand are offended mightily when we blow those particular buildings into rubble with the shooters inside.
I do have a problem with people who fly civilian airliners full of innocent civilians into civilian buildings (technically, we might consider the Pentagon a valid military target being hit with a planeload of innocent civilians).
While we at least try to minimize civilian casualties in war (remember, we're not carpet bombing whole cities with WW II technology, we're dropping GPS guided bombs right on a particular target).
I have a problem with people who stack their weapons in schools and hospitals, and then get upset when we drop a guided bomb on that target.
I have a problem with people who start a war and then get upset because we come over to their side of the world and try to finish it while at least following some rules (we could have settled the whole thing in 30 minutes with nuclear weapons).
I have a problem with people who accuse us of genocide - if we were going to commit genocide, this all would have been finished 30 minutes after the second plane hit the WTC.
But, no, I don't have a problem with Muslims. Just certain people. And if I was President, this problem would be over 30 minutes after I was sworn in. Yes, over 1 billion people would die, but we wouldn't be reading any more news about radical Islam.

The Mongols in 1258 had the right idea. Sack the place, kill the inhabitants, burn the cities to the ground. Leave only the stench of rotting corpses.

Much-angsty...
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:17
no, i meant ALOT not ALL, they are different words with different meanings, thanks for assuming what i meant.
hey wernt you insulting my intelligence because i assumed things? guess they wernt so much of an assumption after all eh
Upward's assumption comes from your past posts. Hence, knowing a little bit about your views. Not from what they heard from other folks in a casual offhand statement.
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 16:18
Personally I have no problem with Muslims. There have been at least as many Catholic and Protestant terrorists over the years, without even getting started on left and right wing terrorists who are far more common. Hate terrorism, don't hate people.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 16:20
Upward's assumption comes from your past posts. Hence, knowing a little bit about your views. Not from what they heard from other folks in a casual offhand statement.
To be fair I did make some assumptions ... something we all do (we have to , to survive we have to assume certain things with be there or behave in predictable manner when they theoretically couldn’t) he was adding words into my mouth and I told him what I think he meant ;) fair exchange

I did not insult him for assuming though … (not his intelligence at this point anyways) but … yeah
Joey P
02-12-2004, 16:26
It just seems that wherever there are large numbers of muslims there is violence. Whether it's muslims in Southern Thailand and the Southern Phillipines using terrorism to try to secede, or muslims training in the US then flying planes into buildings full of thousands of civilians. There are plenty of moderate muslims, but until they stop saying things like "The terrorists are not real muslims, Islam doesn't teach violence" and face up to the fact that there are terrorists among them people will paint with a broad brush. People will be suspicious around muslims because the moderates aren't vocal enough in their criticism. If the moderates in the ummah really want to get some respect for their religion they should cooperate with law enforcement and report potentially violent folks in their community. Perhaps even work as translators for the FBI. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. It seems evil is triumphing in the muslim world.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:27
While we at least try to minimize civilian casualties in war (remember, we're not carpet bombing whole cities with WW II technology, we're dropping GPS guided bombs right on a particular target).
looked like carpet bombing to me, and thats what we are doing is it? who the hell is picking targets? ray charles (rip)
the rest i just ignored cuz its annoying generalization which the point of this thread is to show is bad
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:28
Let's see... now why don't people, and this is true just about everywhere on the planet mind you, like muslims?
Could it be because wherever they are, they make trouble?

A short list:

America: 911
Israel: intifadah
Thailand: riots
PRC: riots
the Netherlands: van Gogh
Belgium: Abu Jaja
Indonesia: just a few bombs, on Bali. Lotsa dead tourists.
India: Kashmir
Darfur: ethnic cleansing
Kosovo: trouble
Bosnia: trouble
Philipines: trouble
Russia: killing a couple of hundred school-kids.

Mind you, this is hardly a complete list... but maybe, the 80-90% of the human race who are not muslim would sleep a lot sounder if there were no more muslims on the planet?

Is this opinion not balanced and unfair? I don't deny it. But I also think it is dead-on-target...

ooh ooh ooh lets list the WHOLE of the mass killings by the christian faith! and i dont mean the radicals of the faith like you do, i mean church nd community sanctioned actions
Joey P
02-12-2004, 16:30
ooh ooh ooh lets list the WHOLE of the mass killings by the christian faith! and i dont mean the radicals of the faith like you do, i mean church nd community sanctioned actions
Let's limit it to the late 20th century onward like the poster you responded to did. What do you have? IRA, Tim McVeigh, then what? There has been WAY more violence caused by Islamofascists lately than by christians. Christians have pretty much mellowed out.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:31
To be fair I did make some assumptions ... something we all do (we have to , to survive we have to assume certain things with be there or behave in predictable manner when they theoretically couldn’t) he was adding words into my mouth and I told him what I think he meant ;) fair exchange

I did not insult him for assuming though … (not his intelligence at this point anyways) but … yeah
you are getting ignored

not because you are plain stupid like alot of the people i ignore, no, its because you are being a hypocritical asshole attacking me and accusing me of shit you are doing yourself then pretending you arent doing it

im adding words to YOUR mouth? you ASSUMED i meant "all" when i said "alot" and quoted it like i said it, and i QUOTED YOUR POST and im suddenly putting words in your mouth? you go to hell and you die, i dont give a damn which order asshole
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:31
looked like carpet bombing to me, and thats what we are doing is it? who the hell is picking targets? ray charles (rip)
the rest i just ignored cuz its annoying generalization which the point of this thread is to show is bad
Have you been to Iraq? How do you know what targets are hit?

Let's go over the difference between precision munitions and carpet bombing. Carpet bombing is when a big-ass plane loaded to the brim with bombs flies over a general target area and drops 'em all, hoping that one of them will hit the target. Precision bombing is when a plane flies over, drops a single bomb with a guidance package, and that bomb goes to one single building, and blows up that building, other people may be hurt, but that's because of shrapnel and stuff.

We are carpet bombing, but not in the cities, only in the countryside where terrorists are camped out in remote locations. And one bomb isn't enough.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 16:31
Personally I have no problem with Muslims. There have been at least as many Catholic and Protestant terrorists over the years, without even getting started on left and right wing terrorists who are far more common. Hate terrorism, don't hate people.
I seriously doubt there have been as many christian terrorsist.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:32
Let's limit it to the late 20th century onward like the poster you responded to did. What do you have? IRA, Tim McVeigh, then what? There has been WAY more violence caused by Islamofascists lately than by christians. Christians have pretty much mellowed out.
no there are plenty of christian caused acts of terrorism (maybe not mass acts but still plenty of killings caused by FANATICS), but the timeline is really unimportant, 20th century? what time was the first example he posted cuz i dunno when it was or what it was about
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 16:33
No, no, no, don't use the same brush and say the word "evil".

Just think of this as a survival lesson. Let's do the math, shall we?

Percentage of Muslims who are radical x
Percentage of Radical Muslims who hate Westerners x
Percentage willing to kill us all x
Percentage chance that they'll get some smallpox

If that number is greater than zero, it's politically unacceptable. It doesn't have to be much above zero, either. At least during the Cold War, it was possible to negotiate and banter with people who at least shared some of your world view. In this case, we might as well be aliens from another planet.

Logically, we have to reduce these numbers. We've been rather bungling on the last factor (we were so sure, but we didn't find a thing). I would think that working on the other factors would be more productive.

Conquering a country and re-educating their children works rather well. Look at Germany and Japan. Sure, we have to deal with 50 years of occupation, but the results reduce the first factor.

Of course, it's cheaper just to kill them all...
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:33
ooh ooh ooh lets list the WHOLE of the mass killings by the christian faith! and i dont mean the radicals of the faith like you do, i mean church nd community sanctioned actions
The vast majority of which occured pre-reformation. As my first post pointed out, a reformation type thing is a very good thing.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 16:36
no there are plenty of christian caused acts of terrorism (maybe not mass acts but still plenty of killings caused by FANATICS), but the timeline is really unimportant, 20th century? what time was the first example he posted cuz i dunno when it was or what it was about
He started with Kosovo and Bosnia. A debatable example. The Serbs were killing mulsims, the muslims were killing serbs. It was more war than terrorism. All the other examples were later. There are fewer christian terrorists even if you count the handfull of whackos who have shot abortion doctors. The timeline is important. Christianity has mellowed out. No more Inquisitions going on today. Islam still has a large violent element.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:36
the difference with germany and japan, well mainly germany, is they wernt religious fanatics and most were taught that way anyway. you ever tried reasoning with a religious fanatic or at the very least some one who is very religious, you get to about "i dont believe-" and your going to be listening for a while
Eutrusca
02-12-2004, 16:37
and the rest is racist ignorant bullshit
No, most of what YOU say is "racist, ignorant bullshit," which you try to disguise under a thin layer of misplaced outrage against anything and everything American. Quite frankly, I'm sick of this approach, sick of anti-Americanism, and sick of you! Bush won, Kerry lost, you're a dinosaur, get a life!
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:38
and thats why eutrusca is ignored he is an excellent example of why i dont like assholes 1 and 2
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 16:38
I suggest that all violent fanatics be annihilated...
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:39
The thing is most Christians have mellowed out of the fanatic stage. There are a few left, but they are kept in check by the vast bulk of Christianity who follow a good number of Christ's teachings involving tolerance and respect.
Brittanic States
02-12-2004, 16:40
No, most of what YOU say is "racist, ignorant bullshit," which you try to disguise under a thin layer of misplaced outrage against anything and everything American. Quite frankly, I'm sick of this approach, sick of anti-Americanism, and sick of you! Bush won, Kerry lost, you're a dinosaur, get a life!
In fairness you forgot to thank Chess Squares for not voting and having a snack instead, it made the Bush Victory even funnier.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:42
In fairness you forgot to thank Chess Squares for not voting and having a snack instead, it made the Bush Victory even funnier.
i would ignore you but i tihkn ill just report you everyday for being a lamer troll, go eat a stray goat
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:43
The question is, how many people will CS ignore on this thread.

I love how CS uses ignoring on the general forum. Seeing as ignoring is an RP thing, and RP doesn't occur on this forum.
DeaconDave
02-12-2004, 16:44
In fairness you forgot to thank Chess Squares for not voting and having a snack instead, it made the Bush Victory even funnier.


Ahhhh. The power of cheese.
Brittanic States
02-12-2004, 16:45
i would ignore you but i tihkn ill just report you everyday for being a lamer troll, go eat a stray goat
Wasnt trolling , Im perfectly serious when I say you were the single biggest laugh I got out of all the election threads on this forum .Everytime you post anything, I think of you eating lunch instead of voting and laugh :D
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:46
The question is, how many people will CS ignore on this thread.

I love how CS uses ignoring on the general forum. Seeing as ignoring is an RP thing, and RP doesn't occur on this forum.
well when you go to profile you click add "insert moron here" to ignore list, and they get ignored and you no longer see their posts, and since it is obviously a board feature, this board was here before nationstates got here, i would assume the ignore feature is for ignoring people, not magical rp purposes
Booslandia
02-12-2004, 16:47
For the record, I'm an American and I am not a muslim.

I have no problem with muslims. For that matter I have no problem with christians, buddists or any other religion that preaches peace and brotherhood. I do however have a problem with assholes. And every faith has followers who are assholes.

And yes, a lot of Americans are ignorant asshats. I live here, and I'll vouch for that. But just you remember that we don't have the corner on the asshat market here. The world is full of assholes of every nationality and every religion. Because, quite frankly, people suck.

Mmmkay?
Abu Saedi
02-12-2004, 16:47
Muslims are hated for one reason: scapegoating.
It just like with Japanese-Americans during World War II, because of the actions of a foreign entity, all Japanese-Americans were villified and eventually thrown into concentration camps (they were not death camps, but, they WERE concentration camps). The same thing happened after 9/11. Because of the actions of al Qaeda, another foreign entity, all those who share their faith with them are villified and dehumanized (they have yet to be thrown in camps en mass though). This sort of action is absolute hypocracy. If you take the example of the aftermath for Muslim-Americans and Muslims anywhere for that matter, why are not Christian-Americans villified and dehumanized because of nominal Christians blowing up abortion clinics? Why were not all white, males villified and dehumanized after Oklahoma City?
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 16:49
well when you go to profile you click add "insert moron here" to ignore list, and they get ignored and you no longer see their posts, and since it is obviously a board feature, this board was here before nationstates got here, i would assume the ignore feature is for ignoring people, not magical rp purposes
I understand now
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 16:49
How come people feel that if they put Islamic or Muslim in a sentence they can say things that if you put any other religious (or an ethinic) group then it shouldn't be treated with the same disdain and horror. When the IRA where active they weren't refered to as Catholic terrorists and their opponents were not called Protestant terrorists but on this basis they should have been.
The Islamic faith was a peaceful and non-militant one until the repeated attacks of the crusades caused sections of it to look for a militant counter solution.
Islam forbids murder just as Christianity does.
Brittanic States
02-12-2004, 16:50
I woulda put chess squares on my ignore list but I had lunch instead.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 16:50
For the record, I'm an American and I am not a muslim.

I have no problem with muslims. For that matter I have no problem with christians, buddists or any other religion that preaches peace and brotherhood. I do however have a problem with assholes. And every faith has followers who are assholes.

And yes, a lot of Americans are ignorant asshats. I live here, and I'll vouch for that. But just you remember that we don't have the corner on the asshat market here. The world is full of assholes of every nationality and every religion. Because, quite frankly, people suck.

Mmmkay?
not denying that but we are talking about american asshatism
Tietz
02-12-2004, 16:51
Children, don't make me turn the hose on you.

On the orginal post about the Marine who killed the guy who was pretending to be dead..
while taking the city, there were terrorists who would fake being dead, then jump up with a gun and shoot our soldiers. That should give more than enough justification to any soldier to put a few bullets into someone pretending to be dead.
We didn't invent that game, we just learned how to survive with the rules the terrorists have written
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 16:52
Ah, I seem to remember white Christian males being villified after OK City. I also seem to remember this vilification being applied after Kerry lost the election.

Bad, evil, white, Christian males are blamed for virtually every misery that ever occurred in history in my daughter's history class. No other group ever receives credit for anything miserable. And at no time is any white Christian male ever given credit for anything good in her history classes.

She has no idea at this point who any of the major inventors of the 19th century are (if they were white and male). She knows all about George Washington Carver, to be sure, but that's about as close as she gets in class (it's ok to teach about non-white Americans).
DeaconDave
02-12-2004, 16:53
How come people feel that if they put Islamic or Muslim in a sentence they can say things that if you put any other religious (or an ethinic) group then it shouldn't be treated with the same disdain and horror. When the IRA where active they weren't refered to as Catholic terrorists and their opponents were not called Protestant terrorists but on this basis they should have been.
The Islamic faith was a peaceful and non-militant one until the repeated attacks of the crusades caused sections of it to look for a militant counter solution.
Islam forbids murder just as Christianity does.

That's not entirely true.

In any event, that's like saying in 1940 that Nazi Germany's nationlism was justified because, historically, France had invaded the German speaking peoples' countries many more times in the past.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 16:54
Muslims are hated for one reason: scapegoating.
It just like with Japanese-Americans during World War II, because of the actions of a foreign entity, all Japanese-Americans were villified and eventually thrown into concentration camps (they were not death camps, but, they WERE concentration camps). The same thing happened after 9/11. Because of the actions of al Qaeda, another foreign entity, all those who share their faith with them are villified and dehumanized (they have yet to be thrown in camps en mass though). This sort of action is absolute hypocracy. If you take the example of the aftermath for Muslim-Americans and Muslims anywhere for that matter, why are not Christian-Americans villified and dehumanized because of nominal Christians blowing up abortion clinics? Why were not all white, males villified and dehumanized after Oklahoma City?
Christians are painted with a broad brush by many. Look at the threads containing debates between christians and atheists. The difference is that Japanese-Americans volunteered to fight in WWII in large numbers. Italian-American FBI agents were crucial to the fight against the Mafia. White males captured and prosecuted the OK city bomber. It just looks like moderate muslims try to excuse the acts of the terrorists among them instead of fighting them.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 16:56
How come people feel that if they put Islamic or Muslim in a sentence they can say things that if you put any other religious (or an ethinic) group then it shouldn't be treated with the same disdain and horror. When the IRA where active they weren't refered to as Catholic terrorists and their opponents were not called Protestant terrorists but on this basis they should have been.
The Islamic faith was a peaceful and non-militant one until the repeated attacks of the crusades caused sections of it to look for a militant counter solution.
Islam forbids murder just as Christianity does.
That's totally untrue. Islam spread accross the middle east by conquering christian and jewish villages. Islamic armies spread their faith to India by the sword. Islam was interested in conquest and slavery from the beginning.
End of Darkness
02-12-2004, 16:58
not denying that but we are talking about american asshatism
you cannot talk about American problems without talking about the problems of the rest of the world. We got those damn problems from everyone else.
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:03
That's totally untrue. Islam spread accross the middle east by conquering christian and jewish villages. Islamic armies spread their faith to India by the sword. Islam was interested in conquest and slavery from the beginning.
I think that there is a difference, it was spread by large empires conquering their neighbours, it wasn't the reason for the conquering. Your way round is like saying Christianity spread accross the americas by conquering pagan and shamanistic tribes. The Portuguese spread their faith to the Aztecs by the gun. Also the greatest and most brutal slavery in history was the enslavement of Africans by Europeans and justified by Christianity.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:06
I think that there is a difference, it was spread by large empires conquering their neighbours, it wasn't the reason for the conquering. Your way round is like saying Christianity spread accross the americas by conquering pagan and shamanistic tribes. The Portuguese spread their faith to the Aztecs by the gun. Also the greatest and most brutal slavery in history was the enslavement of Africans by Europeans and justified by Christianity.
I'm not saying christianity is blameless. I'm just responding to a poster who said Islam was peacefull before the crusades. It most definately wasn't.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 17:12
IIRC, American asshatism was originally European asshatism. Or, colonialism.

Middle East problem? Who drew the lines on the map? Who arbitrarily created nations there? Who put certain families in charge of certain countries? Some European asshats.

African problem? Who burned ALL the records of the local government (including property records and birth records) before relinquishing control? Who established apartheid? Who sponsored numerous mercenary actions there? Some European asshats.

Vietnam problem? Ah, that was French asshats.

And I would include any Soviet intervention as European asshatism as well. Where did we get the roots of the Afghanistan problem?

FWIW, I'm really surprised that Australia, Canada, and the US turned out as well as they did...
Vast Principles
02-12-2004, 17:12
If you listen to everything everyone says you wont go anywere, ignore racists, and most other people, because their opinions dont matter and they are most probably completely wrong

NO_ONE IS BLAMELESS, EvERYONE AGREES WITH THAT!!!
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:12
It just seems that wherever there are large numbers of muslims there is violence. Whether it's muslims in Southern Thailand and the Southern Phillipines using terrorism to try to secede, or muslims training in the US then flying planes into buildings full of thousands of civilians.

Yes, but you also have to look at the factors leading up to it. The Phillipines, for example, used to be a primarily Muslim nation until the Christians came in and systematically took over everything. What would you do if someone walked into your house, shoved you and your family out into the garage with 10 other families from the neighborhood, and said, "This is where you must live from now on". I don't know about you, but I'd fight back and I'd keep fighting until I - and everyone else who was displaced - got my whole house back.


People will be suspicious around muslims because the moderates aren't vocal enough in their criticism.

Herein lies the real difference. Every Muslim - regardless of culture, race, education, ethnic background, or criminal activity - is a brother or sister. If your brother said he was going to shoot the President or rob a bank, would you run off and turn him into the FBI? Your own family? If you would, then your family loyalty needs to be re-assessed.

That's just how it works. Either learn how to understand it and work with it, or declare war on 1.2 billion (and growing) people. Diplomacy will always work better than bombs against Muslim people.

Personally, I've never met a more welcoming and friendly bunch. I walk into a synagogue and I'm met with some amount of suspect and the question, "Are you a Jew?" I walk into a Christian church and I am met with blank stares and size-me-up looks. I walk into a Mosque and I am greeted with handshakes, smiles, and welcomes. Muslims are dedicated, loyal, and deeply spiritual people and I have nothing but admiration for them.
Tietz
02-12-2004, 17:16
There are many muslims that are nice and very peaceful people. There are also extremists that are killing people in India, Africa, Indonesia...etc. But I'm sure it's the evil Fox News dressed up as radical Muslims killing people..nevermind.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:17
Yes, but you also have to look at the factors leading up to it. The Phillipines, for example, used to be a primarily Muslim nation until the Christians came in and systematically took over everything. What would you do if someone walked into your house, shoved you and your family out into the garage with 10 other families from the neighborhood, and said, "This is where you must live from now on". I don't know about you, but I'd fight back and I'd keep fighting until I - and everyone else who was displaced - got my whole house back.




Herein lies the real difference. Every Muslim - regardless of culture, race, education, ethnic background, or criminal activity - is a brother or sister. If your brother said he was going to shoot the President or rob a bank, would you run off and turn him into the FBI? Your own family? If you would, then your family loyalty needs to be re-assessed.

That's just how it works. Either learn how to understand it and work with it, or declare war on 1.2 billion (and growing) people. Diplomacy will always work better than bombs against Muslim people.

Personally, I've never met a more welcoming and friendly bunch. I walk into a synagogue and I'm met with some amount of suspect and the question, "Are you a Jew?" I walk into a Christian church and I am met with blank stares and size-me-up looks. I walk into a Mosque and I am greeted with handshakes, smiles, and welcomes. Muslims are dedicated, loyal, and deeply spiritual people and I have nothing but admiration for them.
With respect to the Phillipines, the christians in the north are the descendants of the people who have lived there for ages. They were converted to christianity by the Spanish, but they are not foreigners. The muslims were not "kicked out of their house".

On your second point, If my brother said he was going to crash a planeload of civilians into a building full of civilians, I would definately turn him in. That kind of brutality goes far beyond the bonds of family loyalty. As for muslims welcoming others into their mosques, that's fine. I, however, have never been made to feel unwelcome by Jews or christians. No religion will make you feel unwelcome. They may be really nice people, they may just want to convert you. Still they won't turn you away.
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:20
On your second point, If my brother said he was going to crash a planeload of civilians into a building full of civilians, I would definately turn him in.

Ah ... guess that's the difference. I wouldn't. I'd try to talk him out of it, but I'd never rat out my own brother.
Tcherbeb
02-12-2004, 17:20
I walk into a Mosque and I am greeted with handshakes, smiles, and welcomes. Muslims are dedicated, loyal, and deeply spiritual people and I have nothing but admiration for them

Just wait until the US become just like France.

If any muslim-lovers in here had balls, they would move to Iran. Or Syria.
Like, NOW.
Oceles
02-12-2004, 17:21
I do not hate muslims, in fact my best friend is a muslim, but I think that (in the UK at least) the acts of those few muslims who live in our country of our taxpayers money and then protest in public about the evil western world make some think that all muslims are like that.
DeaconDave
02-12-2004, 17:21
Personally, I've never met a more welcoming and friendly bunch. I walk into a synagogue and I'm met with some amount of suspect and the question, "Are you a Jew?" I walk into a Christian church and I am met with blank stares and size-me-up looks. I walk into a Mosque and I am greeted with handshakes, smiles, and welcomes. Muslims are dedicated, loyal, and deeply spiritual people and I have nothing but admiration for them.


I think your sample size must be limited then.

You would not be welcome at the finsbury park mosque. You would be welcome at either my local synagogue or lutheran church.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:22
Ah ... guess that's the difference. I wouldn't. I'd try to talk him out of it, but I'd never rat out my own brother.
If he was planning to kill thousands of innocent people? I would sooner kill him myself than let him do it.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 17:23
I converted to Judaism (Conservative branch). I was always, always welcome at any synagogue, received no stares, and was never asked if I was a Jew.

In fact, during the conversion classes, the point was strongly made that there is no "identification" necessary.
Polilofos
02-12-2004, 17:23
Going back to the origional posting:

"Iraqi fighter" 'nuff said.

A conquered poeple have no rights but the ones their conquerors give them. Sorry, but that is how war is.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 17:26
ooh ooh ooh lets list the WHOLE of the mass killings by the christian faith! and i dont mean the radicals of the faith like you do, i mean church nd community sanctioned actions


Hokay... let's just go ask the Jews, or the Hindu's or the Chinese, who they'd rather have totally dissapeared. Christians or Muslims. I'm pretty confident what the answer will be.


War is the recourse our enemies have chosen, and I say, let's give them all they want.
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:26
Going back to the origional posting:

"Iraqi fighter" 'nuff said.

A conquered poeple have no rights but the ones their conquerors give them. Sorry, but that is how war is.
Weren't they supposed to be a liberated people?
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:28
Hokay... let's just go ask the Jews, or the Hindu's or the Chinese, who they'd rather have totally dissapeared. Christians or Muslims. I'm pretty confident what the answer will be.


War is the recourse our enemies have chosen, and I say, let's give them all they want.
We should certainly not shy away from war, but we need to reach out to the moderates and get them on our side. The best weapon against islamofascism is modern, moderate Islam.
Tcherbeb
02-12-2004, 17:29
I think that there is a difference, it was spread by large empires conquering their neighbours, it wasn't the reason for the conquering. Your way round is like saying Christianity spread accross the americas by conquering pagan and shamanistic tribes. The Portuguese spread their faith to the Aztecs by the gun. Also the greatest and most brutal slavery in history was the enslavement of Africans by Europeans and justified by Christianity.

Uhh.. reality check please. Who sold them? Let me give you a hint!
In which language does the word "Abd" mean both "Black" and "Slave" ?
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 17:30
no there are plenty of christian caused acts of terrorism (maybe not mass acts but still plenty of killings caused by FANATICS), but the timeline is really unimportant, 20th century? what time was the first example he posted cuz i dunno when it was or what it was about


WOW! You must be the last individual on the planet who cannot indentify the date 911!

*ROFLMAO-ing*
Von Witzleben
02-12-2004, 17:30
I think that there is a difference, it was spread by large empires conquering their neighbours, it wasn't the reason for the conquering. Your way round is like saying Christianity spread accross the americas by conquering pagan and shamanistic tribes. The Portuguese spread their faith to the Aztecs by the gun. Also the greatest and most brutal slavery in history was the enslavement of Africans by Europeans and justified by Christianity.
Mohammed himself was the warlord during the conquest of the Arabian peninsula.
And the Portugese never conquered the Aztecs. And oh yeah, the Muslims snatched slaves from Africa since about the 8th century. And they were not any more gentle. And later they became mediators between the Europeans and African tribes who sold slaves.
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:32
If any muslim-lovers in here had balls, they would move to Iran. Or Syria.
Like, NOW.

And there's the attitude that makes me want to fly a plane into your buildings.

"You like it so much, why don't you marry it?" ... what are you ... 6?
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:33
Mohammed himself was the warlord during the conquest of the Arabian peninsula.
And the Portugese never conquered the Aztecs. And oh yeah, the Muslims snatched slaves from Africa since about the 8th century. And they were not any more gentle. And later they became mediators between the Europeans and African tribes who sold slaves.
Basically we are all no better, or worse, than each other. So we should all get off our moral high horse (there's far to many people on it, poor thing).
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:34
If he was planning to kill thousands of innocent people? I would sooner kill him myself than let him do it.

Not even if he was planning to kill thousands of innocent people. Blood is thicker than water. I was raised that you never rat out your family.
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:36
Uhh.. reality check please. Who sold them? Let me give you a hint!
In which language does the word "Abd" mean both "Black" and "Slave" ?
'Abd - [pl. 'ibad or 'abid] - Male slave, servant (of God), man, human being. In the plural 'abid is often used to designate 'slaves', while 'ibad is used for 'servants (of God)'. Al-Ibad means 'mankind'. However, the Qur'an does not use the plural 'ibad for slaves: see verse 32 of Surat al-Nur. 'Abd often forms part of a proper name, e.g. 'Abd al-Rahman (=Servant of the Merciful God). Slavery was common throughout Islamic history and the institution was governed by a variety of rules established by Islamic jurisprudence. Modern Islam is in favor of the abolition of slavery. (See al-Rabb; al-Rahman.)

So a bit more to it than that, oh, and no black.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:36
Not even if he was planning to kill thousands of innocent people. Blood is thicker than water. I was raised that you never rat out your family.
Terrorists don't rob banks. They kill as many innocent civilians as possible. It is the responsibility of the moderate muslims to police themselves, or they have nobody to blame when every hand is turned against them.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 17:37
It just looks like moderate muslims try to excuse the acts of the terrorists among them instead of fighting them.

The only serious example of Islamic press that does not play the excuse game is the much villified Al Jazeera.

There is no middle ground between Islam and the rest of mankind, and I don't waste my time looking for it. I might as well spend my time on the fruitless pursuit of seeking evidence in favour of creationism.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:37
'Abd - [pl. 'ibad or 'abid] - Male slave, servant (of God), man, human being. In the plural 'abid is often used to designate 'slaves', while 'ibad is used for 'servants (of God)'. Al-Ibad means 'mankind'. However, the Qur'an does not use the plural 'ibad for slaves: see verse 32 of Surat al-Nur. 'Abd often forms part of a proper name, e.g. 'Abd al-Rahman (=Servant of the Merciful God). Slavery was common throughout Islamic history and the institution was governed by a variety of rules established by Islamic jurisprudence. Modern Islam is in favor of the abolition of slavery. (See al-Rabb; al-Rahman.)

So a bit more to it than that, oh, and no black.
In Sudan slavery still exists. In Saudi Arabia it was legal until sometime in the '80s. That's a religion that is way behind in the learning curve.
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:38
Terrorists don't rob banks. They kill as many innocent civilians as possible. It is the responsibility of the moderate muslims to police themselves, or they have nobody to blame when every hand is turned against them.
So with that logic it is my responsibiliy as a Christian to police the fundamentalists in other countries? How do I do that?
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:39
In Sudan slavery still exists. In Saudi Arabia it was legal until sometime in the '80s. That's a religion that is way behind in the learning curve.
In the Evangelist Protestant US the death penalty still exists. That's a religion that is way behind in the learning curve.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:40
So with that logic it is my responsibiliy as a Christian to police the fundamentalists in other countries? How do I do that?
If a guy in your church is talking about blowing up the local gay bar, tell the cops.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 17:41
In the Evangelist Protestant US the death penalty still exists. That's a religion that is way behind in the learning curve.
I'm not in favor of the death penalty. Still, there's a big difference between putting a serial killer to death and enslaving and raping a 12 year old girl.
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:41
In Sudan slavery still exists. In Saudi Arabia it was legal until sometime in the '80s. That's a religion that is way behind in the learning curve.


To be fair, you can't equate the Government with the Religion. People say the US is a Christian nation (even though we're not) and, yet, we have freedom of speech (something condemned in the Bible) and freedom of religion. Just because the government of the Sudan or Saudi Arabia does something, doesn't mean it's condoned by Qur'an.

Even in Iran, a Muslim theocracy, people have the freedom to be Jewish or Christian without problems.
Florestan
02-12-2004, 17:41
I suppose people hate muslims became they immediately associate islam with terrorism.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 17:42
snip
Herein lies the real difference. Every Muslim - regardless of culture, race, education, ethnic background, or criminal activity - is a brother or sister.

snip

That's just how it works. Either learn how to understand it and work with it, or declare war on 1.2 billion (and growing) people. snip


I have never seen a better argument in favour of total extinction.
Tcherbeb
02-12-2004, 17:42
And there's the attitude that makes me want to fly a plane into your buildings.

"You like it so much, why don't you marry it?" ... what are you ... 6?

Can't take criticism, so you're flying a plane into buildings? What are you? A terrorist?

And please. Arguments like "christians and jews are suspicious of everyone, but boy, muslims are a swell bunch" are outright racist. Go inside a mosque FOR REAL. The older types in there won't pay attention to you, and that's the very luckiest kind of welcome you'll get. If you're not white!
Xenasia
02-12-2004, 17:43
If a guy in your church is talking about blowing up the local gay bar, tell the cops.
Of course but you guys are talking about Islam as though it was an ethinic group or a single unified entity. It isn't, it is a diverse world wide religion spread accross many countries. It would be more accurate to talk about specific countries and specific branches of Islam rather than branding all Islam as responsible.

[edit] same answer to this too:

I'm not in favor of the death penalty. Still, there's a big difference between putting a serial killer to death and enslaving and raping a 12 year old girl.
Artallion
02-12-2004, 17:44
Not all muslims are evil, filthy devil-spawn. but the fact remains that muslims are the only ones who practice suicide-bombings and actually encourage the murder of civillians.
In Baghdad, every single military structure had intentionally been placed as close as possible to a school, hospital or some other major civillian building.
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:47
Go inside a mosque FOR REAL. The older types in there won't pay attention to you, and that's the very luckiest kind of welcome you'll get. If you're not white!

Ummm ... I go to a mosque every day ... a nice man from Sudan is teaching me Arabic ... for free ... and I'm a Jew! Nobody has ignored me. They have prayer time and I sit politely off to the side and study and nobody bothers me or forces me to pray with them.

I think it is you who doesn't know anything.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 17:49
We should certainly not shy away from war, but we need to reach out to the moderates and get them on our side. The best weapon against islamofascism is modern, moderate Islam.

I beg to differ - the best weapon is Effectiveness.


Be ruthless.

We might consider, for example, the Effectiveness Lesson in the Book of Samuel. God said to Saul: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” But while Saul mostly followed the Lord’s commandment, he spared a few folks and critters. God was outraged at this insufficient ruthlessness. As future-king-maker Samuel explained to soon-to-be-ex-king Saul, “Thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.” So Samuel had to mop up, completing the earth-scorching. Now that’s Effectiveness.

Similarly, when the Romans wanted to be rid of troublesome Carthage once and for all, they flattened the city and plowed the leveled ground with salt. Carthago was truly delenda, and it hasn’t been heard from since.

More recently, when white Americans and Australians wanted to Manifest their Destiny over their respective continents, they mostly massacred the aboriginal peoples, occasionally deigning to miscegenate with them. The Chinese are using equally Effective tactics in Tibet today. In geopolitics, possession-by-domination is nine-tenths of the law; demography is political destiny.

In the meantime, after 213 years of attempted subjugation, the Russians are still Ineffective in Chechnya. Vladimir Putin might be asking himself, “WWSD” —What Would Stalin Do? And the answer to that question might well be: total wipeout, by any WMD necessary. Note to other countries dealing with uppity populations: it’s genocide, but it’s been proven Effective.



Original by James P. Pinkerton, who is a columnist for Newsday and a fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington, D.C. He served in the White House under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.
Mortimus the 1st
02-12-2004, 17:52
Ok all ,

On to the subject of the soldier that pulled the trigger.

We cannot judge this young man. He is living every moment wondering if mortars are going to fall on him, if a sniper will get him or if some simple piece of trash at the side of the road will blow up and kill him.

We cannot sit here and from one snipet be judge and jury. If this soldier is convicted, it will jepordize the safety of 10s of thousands of soldiers.

Soldiers do not have the luxury to second guess themselves. When they are in a situation they need to make a decision. Sometimes mistakes are made. These mistakes are bad, but this is war, and people die, even innocents.

If soldiers start pausing in the heat of battle to second guess themselves or their superiors decision, other soldiers in that unit may die.

I do not know if I would have done the same thing that soldier did, but I do know that I cannot judge his actions as I have not walked in his shoes, do not know what he has seen and experienced

FYI, I do not agree withg this war, but we are in it, and leaving now would be worse. We have to stabilize the area. THat may not be possible but we must try.
Keruvalia
02-12-2004, 17:54
Not all muslims are evil, filthy devil-spawn. but the fact remains that muslims are the only ones who practice suicide-bombings and actually encourage the murder of civillians.

So all those Japanese suicide pilots were Muslim? Wow.

In Baghdad, every single military structure had intentionally been placed as close as possible to a school, hospital or some other major civillian building.

Iraq is a secular state, not a Muslim state. Hussein placed all those military installations near schools and hospitals so they'd be harder targets to hit.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 17:56
If a guy in your church is talking about blowing up the local gay bar, tell the cops.


Hear, hear! Too long has that kind of unacceptable behaviour been tolerated throught the artifice of 'musn't talk'.
Neo Cannen
02-12-2004, 18:03
Here is an intersting article from "The Spectator" which you may find interesting in this debate.

The triumph of the East
There’s no plot, says Anthony Browne: Islam really does want to conquer the world. That’s because Muslims, unlike many Christians, actually believe they are right, and that their religion is the path to salvation for all

A year ago I had lunch with an eminent figure who asked if I thought she was mad. ‘No,’ I said politely, while thinking, ‘Yup.’ She had said she thought there was a secret plot by Muslims to take over the West. I have never been into conspiracy theories, and this one was definitely of the little-green-men variety. It is the sort of thing BNP thugs claim to justify their racial hatred.
Obviously, we all know about Osama bin Laden’s ambitions. And we are all aware of the loons of al-Muhajiroun waving placards saying ‘Islam is the future of Britain’. But these are all on the extremist fringe, representative of no one but themselves. Surely no one in Islam takes this sort of thing seriously? I started surfing the Islamic media.
Take Dr Al-Qaradawi, the controversial Egyptian imam who was recently fawned over by the Mayor of London even though he promotes the execution of homosexuals, the right of men to indulge in domestic violence, and the murder of innocent Jews. During the brouhaha it went unnoticed that he also wants to conquer Europe. Don’t take my word for it, just listen to him on his popular al-Jazeera TV show, Sharia and Life.
‘Islam will return to Europe. The conquest need not necessarily be by the sword. Perhaps we will conquer these lands without armies. We want an army of preachers and teachers who will present Islam in all languages and in all dialects,’ he broadcast in 1999, according to the Middle East Media Research Institute, which translates his programmes. On another programme he declared, ‘Europe will see that it suffers from a materialist culture, and it will seek a way out, it will seek a lifeboat. It will seek no life-saver but the message of Islam.’
Far from being on the fringe, his immensely popular programmes are watched by millions across the Middle East and Europe. The BBC cooed that he has ‘star’ status among the world’s Muslims.
Dr Al-Qaradawi, who is based in Qatar, is also the spiritual guide of the hardline Muslim Brotherhood, which is growing across Europe, and whose leader Muhammad Mahdi Othman ’Akef declared recently, ‘I have complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America, because Islam has logic and a mission.’
In the most sacred mosque in Islam, Sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Sudais of the Grand Mosque in Mecca uses his sermons to call for Jews to be ‘annihilated’ and to urge the overthrow of Western civilisation. ‘The most noble civilisation ever known to mankind is our Islamic civilisation. Today, Western civilisation is nothing more than the product of its encounter with our Islamic civilisation in Andalusia [mediaeval Spain]. The reason for [Western civilisation’s] bankruptcy is its reliance on the materialistic approach, and its detachment from religion and values. [This approach] has been one reason for the misery of the human race, for the proliferation of suicide, mental problems and for moral perversion. Only one nation is capable of resuscitating global civilisation, and that is the nation [of Islam].’
Al-Sudais is the highest imam appointed by our Saudi government ally, and his sermons are widely listened to across the Middle East. When he came to the UK in June to open the London Islamic Centre, thousands of British Muslims flocked to see him, our so-called race relations minister Fiona Mactaggart shared the platform, and Prince Charles sent a video message. He is probably the closest thing in Islam to the Pope, but I haven’t recently heard the Pope call for the overthrow of all other faiths.
Saudi Arabia, whose flag shows a sword, seems unabashed about its desire for Islam to take over the world. Its embassy in Washington recommends the home page of its Islamic affairs department, where it declares, ‘The Muslims are required to raise the banner of jihad in order to make the Word of Allah supreme in this world.’ Saudi Arabia has used billions of its petrodollars to export its particularly harsh form of Islam, Wahabism, paying for mosques and Islamic schools across the West. About 80 per cent of the US’s mosques are thought to be under Wahabi control.
Saudi Arabia’s education ministry encourages schoolchildren to despise Christianity and Judaism. A new schoolbook in the kingdom’s curriculum tells six-year-olds: ‘All religions other than Islam are false.’ A note for teachers says they should ‘ensure to explain’ this point. In Egypt, the schoolbook Studies in Theology: Traditions and Morals explains that a particularly ‘noble’ bit of the Koran is ‘encouraging the faithful to perform jihad in God’s cause, to behead the infidels, take them prisoner, break their power — all that in a style which contains the highest examples of urging to fight’.
A popular topic for discussion on Arabic TV channels is the best strategy for conquering the West. It seems to be agreed that since the West has overwhelming economic, military and scientific power, it could take some time, and a full frontal assault could prove counterproductive. Muslim immigration and conversion are seen as the best path.
Saudi Professor Nasser bin Suleiman al-Omar declared on al-Majd TV last month, ‘Islam is advancing according to a steady plan, to the point that tens of thousands of Muslims have joined the American army and Islam is the second largest religion in America. America will be destroyed. But we must be patient.’
Islam is now the second religion not just in the US but in Europe and Australia. Europe has 15 million Muslims, accounting for one in ten of the population in France, where the government now estimates 50,000 Christians are converting to Islam every year. In Brussels, Mohammed has been the most popular name for boy babies for the last four years. In Britain, attendance at mosques is now higher than it is in the Church of England.
Al-Qa’eda is criticised for being impatient, and waking the West up. Saudi preacher Sheikh Said al-Qahtani said on the Iqraa TV satellite channel, ‘We did not occupy the US, with eight million Muslims, using bombings. Had we been patient and let time take its course, instead of the eight million there could have been 80 million [Muslims], and 50 years later perhaps the US would have become Muslim.’
It is difficult to brush this off as an aberration of Islam, which is normally just tickety-boo letting the rest of the world indulge in its false beliefs. Dr Zaki Badawi, the moderate former director of the Islamic Cultural Centre in London, admitted, ‘Islam endeavours to expand in Britain. Islam is a universal religion. It aims to bring its message to all corners of the earth. It hopes that one day the whole of humanity will be one Muslim community.’
In Muslim tradition, the world is divided into Dar al-Islam, where Muslims rule, and Dar al-Harb, the ‘field of war’ where the infidels live. ‘The presumption is that the duty of jihad will continue, interrupted only by truces, until all the world either adopts the Muslim faith or submits to Muslim rule,’ wrote Professor Bernard Lewis in his bestseller The Crisis of Islam.’

The first jihad was in ad 630, when Mohammed led his army to conquer Mecca. He made a prediction that Islam would conquer the two most powerful Christian centres at the time, Constantinople and Rome. Within 100 years of his death, Muslim armies had conquered the previously Christian provinces of Syria, Palestine, Egypt and the rest of North Africa, as well as Spain, Portugal and southern Italy, until they were stopped at Poitiers in central France in ad 732. Muslim armies overthrew the ancient Zoroastrian empire of Persia, and conquered much of central Asia and Hindu India.
Ibn Warraq, a Pakistani who lost his Islamic faith, wrote in his book Why I am not a Muslim, ‘Although Europeans are constantly castigated for having imposed their insidious decadent values, culture and language on the Third World, no one cares to point out that Islam colonised lands that were the homes of advanced and ancient civilisations.’
It took 700 years for the Spanish to get their country back in the prolonged ‘Reconquista’. In the meantime the Turks, a central Asian people, had been converted to Islam and had conquered the ancient Christian land of Anatolia (now called Turkey). In 1453 they captured Constantinople — fulfilling Mohammed’s first prediction — which was the centre of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The glorious Hagia Sophia, which had been one of the most important churches in Christendom for nearly 1,000 years after it was built in ad 537, was turned into a mosque, and minarets were added. The Turks went on to occupy Greece and much of the Balkans for four centuries, turning the Parthenon into a mosque and besieging Vienna, before retreating as their power waned.
In the Middle East, there are regular calls for Mohammed’s second prediction to come true. Sheikh Muhammad bin Abd al-Rahman al-’Arifi, imam of the mosque of the Saudi government’s King Fahd Defence Academy, wrote recently, ‘We will control the land of the Vatican; we will control Rome and introduce Islam in it.’
Not all conversion has been by the sword. Muslim traders peaceably converted Indonesia, now the most populous Islamic nation. But nor have the conquests stopped. Islam has continued spreading in sub-Saharan Africa, most notably in Nigeria and Sudan. Abyssinia — Ethiopia — is an ancient Christian land where Muslims have come to outnumber Christians only in the last 100 years. Just 50 years ago, Lebanon was still predominantly Christian; it is now predominantly Muslim.
Of course, Christianity has been just as much a conquering religion. Spanish armies ruthlessly destroyed ancient civilisations in Central and South America to spread the message of love. Christians colonised the Americas and Australia, committing genocide as they went, while missionaries such as Livingstone converted most of Africa.
But the difference is that Christendom has — by and large — stopped conquering and converting, and indeed in Europe simply stopped believing. Even President Bush’s most trenchant critics don’t believe he conquered Afghanistan and Iraq to spread the word of Jesus. It is ironic that by deposing Saddam, who ran the most secular of Arab regimes, the US actually transferred power to the imams.
I believe in a free market in religions, and it is inevitable that if you believe your religion is true, then you believe others are false. But this market is seriously rigged. In Saudi Arabia the government bans all churches, while in Europe governments pay to build Islamic cultural centres. While in many Islamic countries preaching Christianity is banned, in Western Christian countries the right to preach Islam is enshrined in law. Christians are free to convert to Islam, while Muslims who convert to Christianity can expect either death threats or a death sentence. The Pope keeps apologising for the Crusades (even though they were just attempts to get back former Christian lands) while his opposite numbers call for the overthrow of Christendom.
In Christian countries, those who warn about Islamification, such as the film star Brigitte Bardot, are prosecuted, while in Muslim countries those who call for the Islamification of the world are turned into TV celebrities. In the West, schools teach comparative religion, while in Muslim countries schools teach that Islam is the only true faith. David Blunkett in effect wants to ban criticism of Islam, a protection not enjoyed by Christianity in Muslim countries. Millions of Muslims move to Christian countries, but virtually no Christians move to Muslim ones.
In the last century some Christians justified the persecution and mass murder of Jews by claiming that Jews wanted to take over the world. But these fascist fantasies were based on deliberate lies, such as the notorious fake book The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Now, many in the Muslim world are open about their desire for Islam to conquer the West.

Article ends
Joey P
02-12-2004, 18:05
Of course but you guys are talking about Islam as though it was an ethinic group or a single unified entity. It isn't, it is a diverse world wide religion spread accross many countries. It would be more accurate to talk about specific countries and specific branches of Islam rather than branding all Islam as responsible.

[edit] same answer to this too:
Since when have I said all muslims are the same? Find one post where I said that. I'm just saying that all muslims are likely to be treated as potential terrorists if the moderate ones don't start speaking out against, and helping in the fight agaisnt the crazys.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 18:07
I beg to differ - the best weapon is Effectiveness.


Be ruthless.

We might consider, for example, the Effectiveness Lesson in the Book of Samuel. God said to Saul: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” But while Saul mostly followed the Lord’s commandment, he spared a few folks and critters. God was outraged at this insufficient ruthlessness. As future-king-maker Samuel explained to soon-to-be-ex-king Saul, “Thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.” So Samuel had to mop up, completing the earth-scorching. Now that’s Effectiveness.

Similarly, when the Romans wanted to be rid of troublesome Carthage once and for all, they flattened the city and plowed the leveled ground with salt. Carthago was truly delenda, and it hasn’t been heard from since.

More recently, when white Americans and Australians wanted to Manifest their Destiny over their respective continents, they mostly massacred the aboriginal peoples, occasionally deigning to miscegenate with them. The Chinese are using equally Effective tactics in Tibet today. In geopolitics, possession-by-domination is nine-tenths of the law; demography is political destiny.

In the meantime, after 213 years of attempted subjugation, the Russians are still Ineffective in Chechnya. Vladimir Putin might be asking himself, “WWSD” —What Would Stalin Do? And the answer to that question might well be: total wipeout, by any WMD necessary. Note to other countries dealing with uppity populations: it’s genocide, but it’s been proven Effective.



Original by James P. Pinkerton, who is a columnist for Newsday and a fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington, D.C. He served in the White House under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.
Have fun trying to exterminate over a billion people. Islam is an idea, and an ideology (actually several). It's really hard to fight an idea with guns.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 18:14
Have fun trying to exterminate over a billion people. Islam is an idea, and an ideology (actually several). It's really hard to fight an idea with guns.


Who mentioned fighting an idea?
*shrugs his shoulders*
Considering that the US is currently spending about 400 BLN USD per annum on military might, I don't see any serious technical problem. So I don't see where the word 'try' fits in. It's all a matter of being Effective...
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 18:15
There are ways to exterminate certain Islamic countries wholesale, through the use of salted airburst nuclear weapons. There might be some countries where this would not be an option, and you might have to engage in conventional attack.

But, if you're committing genocide, it's a lot easier than fighting an insurgency according to arbitrary rules.

Within your own country, you would just have to do a modern version of the Final Solution.

I'm sure it's all technically possible, and given a few more horrific attacks by even the smallest number of Islamists (using something like smallpox), I would rate it as a certainty.

If you are someone who believes that the Islamists are one day going to come over here with a small nuke or a biological weapon and kill a few million people, then you had best prepare right now for the absolute fact that the political response will require a Final Solution.
Tcherbeb
02-12-2004, 18:17
'Abd - [pl. 'ibad or 'abid] - Male slave, servant (of God), man, human being. In the plural 'abid is often used to designate 'slaves', while 'ibad is used for 'servants (of God)'. Al-Ibad means 'mankind'. However, the Qur'an does not use the plural 'ibad for slaves: see verse 32 of Surat al-Nur. 'Abd often forms part of a proper name, e.g. 'Abd al-Rahman (=Servant of the Merciful God). Slavery was common throughout Islamic history and the institution was governed by a variety of rules established by Islamic jurisprudence. Modern Islam is in favor of the abolition of slavery. (See al-Rabb; al-Rahman.)

So a bit more to it than that, oh, and no black.

Oh, come ON. Cite sources out of your ass, nobody will mind, or ask you who it's from. Let's ask... Syrian democrats!!!
Blacks are viewed by Arabs as racially inferior, and Arab violence against blacks has a long, turbulent record. The Arabic word for blacks ('abed) is a derivative of the word slave ('abd), and the role of Arabs in the history of slavery is a subject rarely discussed publicly. (http://www.tharwaproject.com/English/Main-Sec/Files/Darfur/MANSUR.htm)

Insert coin to play again. No editing the offending passages from me, though.
Tcherbeb
02-12-2004, 18:22
Ummm ... I go to a mosque every day ... a nice man from Sudan is teaching me Arabic ... for free ... and I'm a Jew! Nobody has ignored me. They have prayer time and I sit politely off to the side and study and nobody bothers me or forces me to pray with them.

I think it is you who doesn't know anything.

You have to live in France to understand arab racism.

Believe me, you don't want to see propalestinian "peace" movements shout "Ittba'h al Yahoude" demonstrating in the streets of America.

/is a sephardic jew, insert coin to shoot again.
Commnista
02-12-2004, 18:26
I AM NOT A RACIST, RACISM IS TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG. I HAVE MADE FRIENDS WITH MUSLIMS IN THE PAST AND RESPECT THEM AS INDIVIDUALS. But any religion that condones the actions, even in a minority, of terrorist acts such as 9/11 or the Bali Bombings is not a religion of peace and tolerance if it can in ANY way be used to cause or condone the massacre of innocent civilians in such a callous and spiteful way. Im sure there are millions upon millions of good, hard working and morally sound muslims in the world but for the percentage that aren't, I blame the religion of Islam for causing the deaths of the people that have died due to terrorism and other Islamic so called "Jihad" attacks and that is what sets me against the Islamic faith as a whole, although by far the majority of ordinary muslims are good people.
Floorpie
02-12-2004, 18:36
It's disappointing that while muslim ex-marine hits on the right sentiments,
he immediately implies racial intolerance and distrust of his own.
Why does he get a 'sad surprise' that an african- american/ Japanese Buddhist would be against punishing the marine? Wake up buddy, ALL RACES are equally capable of being grossly mistaken on the big issues- this is not the sole preserve of caucasians. You're implying that its less of a surprise white people would be so moronic. As you are in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones.
Revelatoria
02-12-2004, 18:52
So all those Japanese suicide pilots were Muslim? Wow.



Iraq is a secular state, not a Muslim state. Hussein placed all those military installations near schools and hospitals so they'd be harder targets to hit.


If you truly believe that's why Hussein put those installations there, you're more delusional than your thinly veiled biased comments indicate.

Of course you make your stance a pro-Muslim one because of your nice Sudanese man and your friendly mosque. You -- like most reading this thread, even myself, are colored by our own experiences. Your mostly positive experiences with Islam make you a proponent of it. However, like it or not, you are a significant yet vocal minority.

The radical muslims are attacking America. Don't list me the "reasons" or "excuses" why they have a good standpoint to do so. I don't care. I don't care what we did. I care that we are being terrorized, at home and abroad. And to cite Dunbarrow's excellent argument, let's be effective in neutralizing that threat. We are the most powerful and feared power on this planet. And in conflict, even by nature's definition, that makes us more fit to survive.

So let's be effective. There is no reason to dawdle. Anyone or any organization who will brutalize and maim an Iraqi Citizen who spent their entire life as a CARE worker and film it for posterity is an animal. Destroying 15,000 innocents in collateral with a laser guided munition doesn't come close to the barbarism of that act. Anyone who associates with those people is an animal. Anyone who doesn't say, "Let's find this person and end their existence" is a weakling and has no room for opinion or conviction. If they lived in my city, I certainly say I will be the first to light a torch and go down the streets looking to utterly destroy that person.

Let's come to the hard-to-look-at realization that not everyone can happily co-exist. It's not in the definition of humanity.

Oh, and whoever was so well-read in the Bible that they said it expressly forbade free-speech.. quote the scripture. I'd like to read it.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 18:55
There are ways to exterminate certain Islamic countries wholesale, through the use of salted airburst nuclear weapons. There might be some countries where this would not be an option, and you might have to engage in conventional attack.

But, if you're committing genocide, it's a lot easier than fighting an insurgency according to arbitrary rules.

Within your own country, you would just have to do a modern version of the Final Solution.

I'm sure it's all technically possible, and given a few more horrific attacks by even the smallest number of Islamists (using something like smallpox), I would rate it as a certainty.

If you are someone who believes that the Islamists are one day going to come over here with a small nuke or a biological weapon and kill a few million people, then you had best prepare right now for the absolute fact that the political response will require a Final Solution.

*Nods*
Did you ever read the book 'The Midwich Cuckoos' by John Wyndham?
He made the fine point that the only solutions are final solutions.
And I'm pretty certain that the US leadership has at least seriously considered the option.

Check 'American Century' if you don't wish to take my word for it.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 18:57
you are getting ignored

not because you are plain stupid like alot of the people i ignore, no, its because you are being a hypocritical asshole attacking me and accusing me of shit you are doing yourself then pretending you arent doing it

im adding words to YOUR mouth? you ASSUMED i meant "all" when i said "alot" and quoted it like i said it, and i QUOTED YOUR POST and im suddenly putting words in your mouth? you go to hell and you die, i dont give a damn which order asshole
*feels like he is talking to a little kid*

I didn’t say all sonny I paraphrased … do you know what paraphrasing is? Well I said you said Americans … in which I was correct you did

Then you told me that I said all Americans

Then you told me you think I meant to say all in there.

I didn’t stereotype anyone , you did sonny boy. I called you on the stereotyping NOT the assuming (which I already said is sometimes justifiable)

I am not being hypocritical I am being precise … I know you like to put things under big umbrellas but there is a fine definition between the two

If you wish me to explain it in length I will … but I am not sure you could understand it

(oh and I know I am being condescending but you are not leaving much choice, reap what ye sow)
Joey P
02-12-2004, 18:58
*Nods*
Did you ever read the book 'The Midwich Cuckoos' by John Wyndham?
He made the fine point that the only solutions are final solutions.
And I'm pretty certain that the US leadership has at least seriously considered the option.

Check 'American Century' if you don't wish to take my word for it.
We didn't need to exterminate the Germans or the Japanese. Why do we need to exterminate muslims? Yes, we should go to war against those who attack us. We should also try to fight the ideology that made them attack us. I'm sure there are plenty of muslims who don't want to kill Americans. Muslims who want to live in free, secular societies. Let's support those and kill only the true enemy.
The Spectral Knights
02-12-2004, 19:00
What I have a problem with is people ASSUMING that just because a few Americans are, as you say, ignorant assholes, that every single one of us is. Did you know that EVERY country has ignorant assholes in it? So does every minority. Its an amazing fact, but there are British assholes, Jewish assholes, Mexican assholes, and Eskimo assholes! Everywhere you go, you can find an asshole, even if there arent any people! There are, in fact, ANIMAL assholes.
I LIKE Muslims, I have a friend whos family escaped from Iraq six years ago, who, and this is the funny part, SUPPORTS the Iraq war. Is SHE a racist? Against herself?
No, the only Muslims I have a problem with are the ones who blow themselves up in the streets and kill innocent people on purpose, or fly planes into crowded buildings.

I agree, I have a muslim friend back home and I dont havy any problems with her. I only have a problem with the extremeists who blow up women and children, cut peoples heads off and push their children into gunfire to make soldiers look bad. If Islam is so peaceful than why is it that if one person even speaks out against it a bunch of Muslims put on their masks, grab their AK-47's, march down the street and burn American flags? I know not all muslims are bad, they have their rotten apples just like every other country and religion does. We all have our faults and I admit when I was on this board a while back I did make very racist statements against the muslim people and I now realise that was very wrong and not all the muslims are to blame for the tradgedies we have had recently.
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 19:02
Jesus.

What kind of racist fools wrote that rubbish?

I do not pretend to like anything about Islam. I think it's a horrible religion and way of life.

But that does not give me the right to dismiss the people who follow it.

Stereotyping an entire religion is amongst the most obscenely stupid things that someone can do. Just because of the media blitz on terrorism, people appear to have subconsciously associated it with 'muslim'.

How many of these people have any idea what Islam represents?

It's hardly a perfect religion, but neither is Christianity, which a great deal of these people follow. In fact, i'd say that Islam is the better of the two. Islam kept learning and knowledge alive while the catholic church was destroying centuries' worth of learning by burning books.

The media blitz has somewhat blinded people to the fact that people can be muslim and NOT be a terrorist. I'm not even arabic by descent- but my skin colour means that people in the street look at me uneasily.

Utter bollocks. Racists are a disgrace to humanity. Misinformed or not, they should be shot.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 19:02
In fairness you forgot to thank Chess Squares for not voting and having a snack instead, it made the Bush Victory even funnier.
Lol I don’t want to sink down anymore but you are right it was good :) specially with all the complaining he did (oh whell betting he cant se the post ... the rest of us can have a good laugh)

Me unlike him I guess can deal with a good fight … me wonders why he comes to a discussion board when he gets worked up (in my opinion incorrectly) and just ignores everyone that dis-agree with him

What is the fun in that? I mean for him not us?
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 19:07
It's that last little part of the equation, that I might term the "annihilation factor".

The Germans and the Japanese didn't want to annihilate all of us to the last person.

While it may not be said of all Muslims, the 100,000 or more who actually belong to Osama's little group are all willing to use something like smallpox to annihilate us all.

No, they're not coming here to enslave us, or convert us, or make us stop watching Britney Spears. They're not coming here to put our women in blue beekeeper outfits, or even because they hate our arrogance.

It's very simple, really. The ideas and ideals of Western Civilization are anathema to Islamic radicals. While the Christian radicals have by and large found ways to acquire power and avoid humiliation in a growingly secular world, radical Islamics and Arab Islamics in particular have only seen a steady decline in every aspect of their lives since the Battle of Lepanto.

And, accurately, they see it as a battle of ideas. And, you can't stop an idea unless you kill everyone who is thinking it.

They are coming here to kill us. There is no other goal, and no other reason. And they won't stop until they accomplish that goal, no matter how many innocent people (or even their own people) get killed.

Multiply that times something like smallpox, and the reasons for a Final Solution become clear. While it may not be politically palatable at this time, it will certainly be exercised if any further major attacks occur in the US. Maybe not in full, but in stages. I'm not saying it's the right response, either, but no one will be able to discuss anything rationally at that point.

With a few million infected people, and a few hundred thousand dead after a couple of weeks of some unknown BW, the word "whiplash" will be inadequate to describe the US response. And NO ONE in Europe will deny the response - for they will be paralyzed in the same rictus of fear.

But as sure as the attack will come, so will the response.
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 19:12
With a few million infected people, and a few hundred thousand dead after a couple of weeks of some unknown BW, the word "whiplash" will be inadequate to describe the US response. And NO ONE in Europe will deny the response - for they will be paralyzed in the same rictus of fear.

But as sure as the attack will come, so will the response.

Can you really see America waging all-out war on the middle-east?

You'd reduce it to a smoking, radioactive crater.

What you said about Europe not reacting in any way but fear is rubbish. The EU will do what it usually does- start squabbling about negotiation and why this or that should or should not happen, and America will ignore it.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 19:14
So how do you hit the muslims living in India, China, Russia, etc.? Nuke every country with a muslim population?
Nsendalen
02-12-2004, 19:18
It's that last little part of the equation, that I might term the "annihilation factor".

[snip]

But as sure as the attack will come, so will the response.

First space shuttle departing at 0800 hours, all passengers please make their way to the boarding area...
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 19:22
JoeyP, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are some countries where it would have to be done by invasion - but, invasion and genocide is much easier than battling an insurgency while playing by arbitrary rules. In this case, no prisoners would ever be taken, and all targets would be valid at all times.

For a chilling look at how easily we could arrive at this end, and how much more effective we might be at it (given modern technology and modern industrial techniques), I suggest for "mood movie" you watch Brannagh in "Conspiracy".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AZVH9/imdb-uk/026-4301666-0362068
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 19:24
So how do you hit the muslims living in India, China, Russia, etc.? Nuke every country with a muslim population?


Heh... I can see that happening.

Not even Bush would be that stupid. Muslims live in America as well. What would you do? Make it illegal to be a Muslim? Kill all muslims?

There's a word for that- genocide.

America prides itself as the land of freedom and equal rights. America was what stopped Germany in World War 2, saving entire races from the holocaust.

Ironic if America partakes in such an action. Nothing of the sort would ever happen.
Choclocheze
02-12-2004, 19:27
Certain few of us have this peculiar notion that murder is wrong. Self defense is one thing, but indiscriminately blowing up/executing peaceful men, women and children? Isn't that why everyone's so pissed at Islam in the first place? Your casual talk of genocide, coordinated murder by a rational group of people, is hypocritical, to say nothing of morally repgunant. How is mass murder by rational people better than the sporadic attacks of religious fanatics? At least the fanatics THINK they're doing the right thing, the crazy bastards.

What imagined moral high ground do you hold that makes you think your form of slaughter is justified while the other is not? Or are you so simple that you honestly believe the solution to any problem is to kill it?
Joey P
02-12-2004, 19:27
JoeyP, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are some countries where it would have to be done by invasion - but, invasion and genocide is much easier than battling an insurgency while playing by arbitrary rules. In this case, no prisoners would ever be taken, and all targets would be valid at all times.

For a chilling look at how easily we could arrive at this end, and how much more effective we might be at it (given modern technology and modern industrial techniques), I suggest for "mood movie" you watch Brannagh in "Conspiracy".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AZVH9/imdb-uk/026-4301666-0362068
So you propose invading China, India, and Russia? No fucking way. Too much land, too many people. We would be fighting the entire population of each country.
Dobbs Town
02-12-2004, 19:28
What I have a problem with is people ASSUMING that just because a few Americans are, as you say, ignorant assholes, that every single one of us is. Did you know that EVERY country has ignorant assholes in it? So does every minority. Its an amazing fact, but there are British assholes, Jewish assholes, Mexican assholes, and Eskimo assholes! Everywhere you go, you can find an asshole, even if there arent any people! There are, in fact, ANIMAL assholes.
I LIKE Muslims, I have a friend whos family escaped from Iraq six years ago, who, and this is the funny part, SUPPORTS the Iraq war. Is SHE a racist? Against herself?
No, the only Muslims I have a problem with are the ones who blow themselves up in the streets and kill innocent people on purpose, or fly planes into crowded buildings.

Well, get ready for this - it's not 'just a few' Americans who are ignorant assholes, it's slightly more than 50% of you. That's significantly more than 'just a few' of you. And your government, elected by those 'few' ignorant assholes among you, is reflective of the values espoused by those 'few' ignorant assholes in your society.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 19:31
Well, get ready for this - it's not 'just a few' Americans who are ignorant assholes, it's slightly more than 50% of you. That's significantly more than 'just a few' of you. And your government, elected by those 'few' ignorant assholes among you, is reflective of the values espoused by those 'few' ignorant assholes in your society.
Ohhh another intellectual “Bush voters are idiots”

Way to stereotype … if I remember right this thread started as an anti stereotyping sort of feeling (being mad ad Muslims being stereotyped)

(you might want to read the intellectual elitists thread “everyone in my group must be the smart ones” sort of thing going on here)

Sorry I don’t agree with bush but you bring the quote

“my biggest detractors are some of the people who support my point of view”

(that means by being an idiot yourself and stereotyping you are hurting the cause)
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 19:31
If you read the news, you'll already know that the Russians are already fighting their Muslims. The Chinese have been fighting theirs recently, too.

I hear that Thailand is fighting theirs.

We won't have a shortage of allies once something really terrible happens.

The other countries who already view Muslims as a threat will be killing them before we even ask. How long do you think any Muslim would live in Russia (with Putin in control) if there was a smallpox outbreak in the US tied to Osama?

Probably not any further than they could run in a minute - because their neighbors would pull them from their houses and kill them.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 19:32
Well, get ready for this - it's not 'just a few' Americans who are ignorant assholes, it's slightly more than 50% of you. That's significantly more than 'just a few' of you. And your government, elected by those 'few' ignorant assholes among you, is reflective of the values espoused by those 'few' ignorant assholes in your society.
Spoken like a true ignorant asshole.
Groovy Vibes
02-12-2004, 19:32
saddam hussein smells, good for him to die
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 19:33
saddam hussein smells, good for him to die
Yay this place is just full of well thought out responses


[/sarcasm]
Choclocheze
02-12-2004, 19:34
Dobbs, don't think the result of this election was limited to foreign policy. I think it's hard for alot of Americans to make a decision about the president regarding the war in Iraq when every other day a terrorist kills 50 civilians in Iraq or Israel. Moral issues such as abortion, homosexual rights, and how much john kerry bled in vietnam were clear, easy decisions for most people, and I think they are what drove this election. Just to say, I don't think said results are relevant in this discussion.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 19:34
If you read the news, you'll already know that the Russians are already fighting their Muslims. The Chinese have been fighting theirs recently, too.

I hear that Thailand is fighting theirs.

We won't have a shortage of allies once something really terrible happens.

The other countries who already view Muslims as a threat will be killing them before we even ask. How long do you think any Muslim would live in Russia (with Putin in control) if there was a smallpox outbreak in the US tied to Osama?

Probably not any further than they could run in a minute - because their neighbors would pull them from their houses and kill them.
Do you think they will sign on for genocide? I don't think they will. Perhaps if there were a smallpox attack the world would turn on Islam, but not before. Even if there were such an attack, I think many countries would try to weed out the terrorists from the innocent.
Choduu
02-12-2004, 19:42
WOW!!!

what is the world coming to, just because the united states is a hegemon and has the ability to find wars does not mean they have choice of taking away an innocent mans live just becuase he is a muslim living in Iraq. This Marine has to be charged liek all the other people being charged of murder, this absolutely ridiculous and since i am a muslim i am appauled. There has to be a course actiont taken, to justify the muslims mans death
Choclocheze
02-12-2004, 19:43
I am currently training to become an officer in the U.S. Air Force. The whole reason I think this country is worth defending is the value it places on the life and rights of each and every American citizen. Anyone partaking in any sort of genocide in OUR borders is destroying the very thing I am preparing to fight for, and I will have absolutely no compunctions against shooting the hell out of them, from my A-10 or from my front porch. I am pro-american, and that means defense against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic - if a muslim is killing innocent people, we kill him. If someone is killing innocent muslims-american CITIZENS, I kill them. Because we are american.
Nsendalen
02-12-2004, 19:44
Choduu, dude, shush, they'll be coming for you now >_> <_<
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 19:45
If you read the news, you'll already know that the Russians are already fighting their Muslims. The Chinese have been fighting theirs recently, too.

I hear that Thailand is fighting theirs.

We won't have a shortage of allies once something really terrible happens.

The other countries who already view Muslims as a threat will be killing them before we even ask. How long do you think any Muslim would live in Russia (with Putin in control) if there was a smallpox outbreak in the US tied to Osama?

Probably not any further than they could run in a minute - because their neighbors would pull them from their houses and kill them.

The news.

You're saying that, according to the news, Russia is on the brink of sanctioning a genocide?

Where do you get your information?

Russia is a democratic country now. Sanctioning a full-scale genocide would provoke international intervention.

...Although I doubt that any country would be suicidal enough to engage Russia. They're no longer the feared power they were, but they've got a helluvalotta nuclear weapons on standby.

Your theories of an internationally sanctioned genocide are utter rubbish. The USA is not completely composed of idiots, despite the stereotypes.

Nor is Russia.

Nor is Britain.

Nor are Taiwan, Europe, Africa, China, or Oceania.

Your hypothesis is flawed. The world isn't going to rush headfirst into a war with 'big frickin' nukes' in hand just because of a terrorist attack.

Did it happen with 9/11?

No.

The Iraq war was slightly influenced by that, but was also caused by the USA's dwindling oil supplies causing a problem. And Bush needed something to gain popularity. He was on a political high after teh international shock caused by September 11th 2001, and needed somethign to maintain it.
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 19:48
I am currently training to become an officer in the U.S. Air Force. The whole reason I think this country is worth defending is the value it places on the life and rights of each and every American citizen. Anyone partaking in any sort of genocide in OUR borders is destroying the very thing I am preparing to fight for, and I will have absolutely no compunctions against shooting the hell out of them, from my A-10 or from my front porch. I am pro-american, and that means defense against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic - if a muslim is killing innocent people, we kill him. If someone is killing innocent muslims-american CITIZENS, I kill them. Because we are american.


If only some more people followed this kind of attitude, then organisations such as the Ku Klux Klan would have no reason to exist.

A bit extreme, but better than the flip-flops that the world has at the moment.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 19:50
I'm absolutely saying that Americans will demand genocide if there is a smallpox attack or a nuclear weapon detonation on US soil.

Russians will certainly go along - they are on the edge of it now in Chechnya.

Chinese go for order - so maybe not genocide, but a lot of "round up some bad guys and shoot them".

Who would take the risk?

And as for local civilians, US or otherwise, being so high minded, who is burning the mosques in the enlightened Netherlands?

And after 911, weren't there US civilians who shot and killed people that they "thought" looked "like a Muslim"?

You can hope for high mindedness all you like. The US rounded up Japanese and interned them for years on a far smaller pretext. There was serious discussion of that same idea here - just in response to 911. Ashcroft was all for it.

Don't think it could happen? Don't think you could be ordered to do it? Shot if you didn't? Don't think your neighbors would be screaming in the streets around a Muslim's house while it burned?

Think again.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 19:54
I am currently training to become an officer in the U.S. Air Force. The whole reason I think this country is worth defending is the value it places on the life and rights of each and every American citizen. Anyone partaking in any sort of genocide in OUR borders is destroying the very thing I am preparing to fight for, and I will have absolutely no compunctions against shooting the hell out of them, from my A-10 or from my front porch. I am pro-american, and that means defense against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic - if a muslim is killing innocent people, we kill him. If someone is killing innocent muslims-american CITIZENS, I kill them. Because we are american.
i was going to read the other 5 pages after i left, but i dont wanna CUZ ITS 5 PAGES IN 2 HOURS so ill start here.


let me reiterate - if its not america, it doesnt matter

brilliant mindset. well those muslims, they arnt american so i wont use any sort of though process to sort them out or even consider the fact muslims are not all terrorists and the like, lets just kill them all! the good christian thing to do!

TECHNICALLY, its more of a jewish thing to do, the new testament (the christian version) is supposed to be about acceptance and bullshit and ignoring the mindless slaughter ordered by god in the old testament
Joey P
02-12-2004, 19:55
I'm absolutely saying that Americans will demand genocide if there is a smallpox attack or a nuclear weapon detonation on US soil.

Russians will certainly go along - they are on the edge of it now in Chechnya.

Chinese go for order - so maybe not genocide, but a lot of "round up some bad guys and shoot them".

Who would take the risk?

And as for local civilians, US or otherwise, being so high minded, who is burning the mosques in the enlightened Netherlands?

And after 911, weren't there US civilians who shot and killed people that they "thought" looked "like a Muslim"?

You can hope for high mindedness all you like. The US rounded up Japanese and interned them for years on a far smaller pretext. There was serious discussion of that same idea here - just in response to 911. Ashcroft was all for it.

Don't think it could happen? Don't think you could be ordered to do it? Shot if you didn't? Don't think your neighbors would be screaming in the streets around a Muslim's house while it burned?

Think again.
Very few people who looked like they may have been muslim were shot. It wasn't a widespread phenomenon. In the wake of a smallpox attack, I'm not sure what would happen, but I would bet against genocide. Unless the smallpox was one of those genetically modified kinds that kills over 90%. Then we might go extinct.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 19:56
If only some more people followed this kind of attitude, then organisations such as the Ku Klux Klan would have no reason to exist.

A bit extreme, but better than the flip-flops that the world has at the moment.
actually that is the reason the klan DID exist, the klansmen did NOT see african americans as people, much less fellow "americans" oh look a black man is talknig back to a white man! shoot him with my a10 from the porch!
Joey P
02-12-2004, 19:57
actually that is the reason the klan DID exist, the klansmen did NOT see african americans as people, much less fellow "americans" oh look a black man is talknig back to a white man! shoot him with my a10 from the porch!
How did you fit an A-10 on your porch?
Armed Bookworms
02-12-2004, 19:59
In any event, that's like saying in 1940 that Nazi Germany's nationlism was justified because, historically, France had invaded the German speaking peoples' countries many more times in the past.
Considering what happened is that Hitler was able to rise to power as a direct result of the British and French demands of heavy reparations placed upon the Wiemar Republic, I think it's relatively fair.
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 20:00
I'm absolutely saying that Americans will demand genocide if there is a smallpox attack or a nuclear weapon detonation on US soil.

Russians will certainly go along - they are on the edge of it now in Chechnya.

Chinese go for order - so maybe not genocide, but a lot of "round up some bad guys and shoot them".

Who would take the risk?

And as for local civilians, US or otherwise, being so high minded, who is burning the mosques in the enlightened Netherlands?

And after 911, weren't there US civilians who shot and killed people that they "thought" looked "like a Muslim"?

You can hope for high mindedness all you like. The US rounded up Japanese and interned them for years on a far smaller pretext. There was serious discussion of that same idea here - just in response to 911. Ashcroft was all for it.

Don't think it could happen? Don't think you could be ordered to do it? Shot if you didn't? Don't think your neighbors would be screaming in the streets around a Muslim's house while it burned?

Think again.

The sad thing is that you have a point.

But think on this- if there was an outbreak of genetically-modified smallpox, then there wouldn't be enough people left to commit the genocide- let alone get attacked.

We would die.

But then again- why bother with smallpox? We've treated that before. If they managed to find a way to get some Ebola virus out of central Africa and into somewhere like China or the USA, 90% of the population die. There is no cure.

Whenever people catch it in Africa, all that they can do is quarantine the villiage and spray people down from a distance with pressure hoses.
Alebrica
02-12-2004, 20:02
actually that is the reason the klan DID exist, the klansmen did NOT see african americans as people, much less fellow "americans" oh look a black man is talknig back to a white man! shoot him with my a10 from the porch!


I did not mean that.

I meant considering all people who are citizens just that- part of your people.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 20:06
I think that an even smaller event would trigger it. If you consider that 911 was enough to trigger sporadic, isolated events of violence resulting in death, let's ratchet up the scale.

We have CAIR claiming that tens of thousands of Muslims were subjected to abuse in the wake of 911 (albeit not tens of thousands of murders).

Now, not smallpox, but a small nuclear weapon, in a major city. It goes off, and they threaten more.

If a few hundred thousand die, and millions more are subjected to the fear and danger of fallout, and there is major economic disruption, how angry do you think people will be? How much action will they demand?

The Nazis didn't get to throwing people wholesale into ovens on Day One in 1934. It occurred in steps that were politically acceptable to the German populace.

So, after a nuke incident here in the US, or a few more 911s, the Muslims here get rounded up. A few more countries are attacked overseas. Maybe we nuke Iran - because they are building bombs, or we think they are (you'll notice that it won't matter at that point, because people will be demanding it anyway).

Anything more, and it will be industrialized. Wholesale annihilation.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 20:08
I think that an even smaller event would trigger it. If you consider that 911 was enough to trigger sporadic, isolated events of violence resulting in death, let's ratchet up the scale.

We have CAIR claiming that tens of thousands of Muslims were subjected to abuse in the wake of 911 (albeit not tens of thousands of murders).

Now, not smallpox, but a small nuclear weapon, in a major city. It goes off, and they threaten more.

If a few hundred thousand die, and millions more are subjected to the fear and danger of fallout, and there is major economic disruption, how angry do you think people will be? How much action will they demand?

The Nazis didn't get to throwing people wholesale into ovens on Day One in 1934. It occurred in steps that were politically acceptable to the German populace.

So, after a nuke incident here in the US, or a few more 911s, the Muslims here get rounded up. A few more countries are attacked overseas. Maybe we nuke Iran - because they are building bombs, or we think they are (you'll notice that it won't matter at that point, because people will be demanding it anyway).

Anything more, and it will be industrialized. Wholesale annihilation.
CAIR is full of shit as usual. Just a propaganda organization to put a nice face on terrorists and their supporters.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 20:09
Ah, you see JoeyP? I bet you would be chasing your Muslim neighbor down the street with a pitchfork and a rope if something really bad happened.

I can't honestly say that I wouldn't participate, either. Banality of evil and all that.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 20:09
How did you fit an A-10 on your porch?
Um big porch :p
Mortimus the 1st
02-12-2004, 20:16
...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WOW!!!

what is the world coming to, just because the united states is a hegemon and has the ability to find wars does not mean they have choice of taking away an innocent mans live just becuase he is a muslim living in Iraq. This Marine has to be charged liek all the other people being charged of murder, this absolutely ridiculous and since i am a muslim i am appauled. There has to be a course actiont taken, to justify the muslims mans death
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have no idea what that Soldier has seen. How many bodies were moved with bombs under them.

How was the soldier to know the guy wasnt about to roll over with a bomb in his hands.

War is hell, sometimes it is hard to tell the good from the bad, the innocents from the enemy.

Regretfully sometimes the wrong people die.
Keblukistan
02-12-2004, 20:17
the reason that people don't care about the many muslim deaths is because they deserve it. the first muslims to die were just regular soldiers like out boys but the ones now are terrorists trying to bring down a new democratic state.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 20:19
the reason that people don't care about the many muslim deaths is because they deserve it. the first muslims to die were just regular soldiers like out boys but the ones now are terrorists trying to bring down a new democratic state.
Oh no the secret is out :eek:
Joey P
02-12-2004, 20:19
Ah, you see JoeyP? I bet you would be chasing your Muslim neighbor down the street with a pitchfork and a rope if something really bad happened.

I can't honestly say that I wouldn't participate, either. Banality of evil and all that.
Depends on how well I know my neighbor.
Chess Squares
02-12-2004, 20:22
the reason that people don't care about the many muslim deaths is because they deserve it. the first muslims to die were just regular soldiers like out boys but the ones now are terrorists trying to bring down a new democratic state.
riiiiight
New Shiron
02-12-2004, 20:24
read this and tell me if this man deserved these responses (i could debunk half the bullshit the anti-muslim racists are saying easily but i want you all to see this before i do, in short shit like this is why i hate people)

The quotes you used seem moderately respectful to me... and to the point. One problem many Americans have is that many of the Islamic faith are Moslems first, Americans second. I have the same problem with people who are Christians (usually Fundamentalist) first and Americans second.

This country was founded on the precept that we are Americans first, and our faith does not have the right to infringe on others faith or beliefs. Many Moslems and Christians would have us all submit to their view of the world.

And his facts were highly questionable (many threads over the last few weeks on the Iraqi death toll and accuracy for example).

Just because we disagree doesn't mean we hate Moslems, it means we disagree with his statements.
Choclocheze
02-12-2004, 20:46
do you morons understand the use of the word "or"? I didn't say the A-10 was on my front porch. It was a statement that I would feel justified resisting genocide on any level, at military or personally.

How does protecting American citizens, specifically, mean I think only americans matter? It's just that any attack on american citizens/civilians is either hostility worthy of declaring war, murder, or treason. Take your pick, they're all hangin' offenses as they should be. And whoever lumped me with the KKK is just plain ignorant, the whole point of my post is that such people are engaging in one of the crimes listed above and should be considered hostile forces, or traitors.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 20:49
Depends on how well I know my neighbor.


It's the trouble, isn't it?
Killing a million is a statistic, and you don't really feel it way down inside.
Kill the guy nextdoor... and somehow it is harder than 1/millionth of the statistic.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 20:51
It's not the numbers. It's if you're close enough to see what he had for breakfast on his teeth. Far away, it's like a video game. Close up, it's personal.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 20:53
do you morons understand the use of the word "or"? I didn't say the A-10 was on my front porch. It was a statement that I would feel justified resisting genocide on any level, at military or personally.

How does protecting American citizens, specifically, mean I think only americans matter? It's just that any attack on american citizens/civilians is either hostility worthy of declaring war, murder, or treason. Take your pick, they're all hangin' offenses as they should be. And whoever lumped me with the KKK is just plain ignorant, the whole point of my post is that such people are engaging in one of the crimes listed above and should be considered hostile forces, or traitors.
I think the guy who responded to your post said something along the lines of "shoot him with my A-10 from the porch"
Mortimus the 1st
02-12-2004, 20:54
do you morons understand the use of the word "or"? I didn't say the A-10 was on my front porch. It was a statement that I would feel justified resisting genocide on any level, at military or personally.

How does protecting American citizens, specifically, mean I think only americans matter? It's just that any attack on american citizens/civilians is either hostility worthy of declaring war, murder, or treason. Take your pick, they're all hangin' offenses as they should be. And whoever lumped me with the KKK is just plain ignorant, the whole point of my post is that such people are engaging in one of the crimes listed above and should be considered hostile forces, or traitors.

I agree completely. It does not matter what group it is that attacks us, Anyone that should choose to target americans will have to deal with the ramifications of that action.

Although I wonder about your sanity flying a A10 Warthog. It is as slow as a sloth and flys to low.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 20:54
It's the trouble, isn't it?
Killing a million is a statistic, and you don't really feel it way down inside.
Kill the guy nextdoor... and somehow it is harder than 1/millionth of the statistic.
Remember I wasn't advocating genocide. Plus, if my neighbor was expressing fundamentalist muslim ideology right after a major terrorist attack, I might go after him. If he was a peaceful guy, I would leave him alone. That was my point.
Joey P
02-12-2004, 20:56
I agree completely. It does not matter what group it is that attacks us, Anyone that should choose to target americans will have to deal with the ramifications of that action.

Although I wonder about your sanity flying a A10 Warthog. It is as slow as a sloth and flys to low.
But it takes a hell of a beating and still flies you back home. Plus you can't argue with the firepower.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 21:01
But it takes a hell of a beating and still flies you back home. Plus you can't argue with the firepower.
Though it doesn’t last long against guided missiles(was great against guns though) … not many craft can unless they can outrun/maneuver/trick the missile and not sure the warthog can do that … but the point is moot
BACK TO TOPIC
Emily Susan Brown
02-12-2004, 21:10
Why do pakis stink?

So blind people can hate them too.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 21:13
Why do pakis stink?

So blind people can hate them too.
*Hands you a prize*

The worst joke I have ever heard

Congratulations
The Spectral Knights
02-12-2004, 21:14
Why do pakis stink?

So blind people can hate them too.

That is extremely racist, funny but racist. Please dont make such remarks. for your own good, I made some racist remarks and my first nation got deleted.
Emily Susan Brown
02-12-2004, 21:38
OK no racist remarks. How about this...

What's better than winning a gold medal at the special olympics?

Not being retarded.
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 21:41
Why do pakis stink?

So blind people can hate them too.
sick...but funny, kind of like dead baby jokes, only worse.
My Gun Not Yours
02-12-2004, 21:44
What's funnier than Emily Susan Brown?

Not having a Nation State...
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 21:45
How did you fit an A-10 on your porch?
I wish I had an A-10 on my porch... :(
Rockness
02-12-2004, 21:46
Because most people are ignorant fuckheads who like think there are facts in the Daily Mail.

Also religion in general causes problems as there is the potential for lunatics [like Bush or Bin Laden] to claim they preach the fundamental truth of an entire religion... Giving them all a bad name and causing all sorts of arguments about faith and Right and stuff like that.... yeah...
Emily Susan Brown
02-12-2004, 21:46
What's funnier than Emily Susan Brown?

Not having a Nation State...

Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh their gonna take away my nation state!!! How will I ever face the people at the office again, oooooooohhhhhh.....

Big deal I'll just reregister from another IP address if necessary.

In the meantime remember this....

How can you tell a black man has just had sex?

He's still wiping the mace from his eyes.
Dunbarrow
02-12-2004, 21:56
Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh their gonna take away my nation state!!! How will I ever face the people at the office again, oooooooohhhhhh.....

Big deal I'll just reregister from another IP address if necessary.

In the meantime remember this....

How can you tell a black man has just had sex?

He's still wiping the mace from his eyes.


Hey guys... I detest muzzie-terrorists just as much as the next Joe.... but SOMEBODY please get that KKK-sheethead outtahere!
That person is unfit to be in civilized company.
Emily Susan Brown
02-12-2004, 21:58
Have a sense of humor ya PC moron.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 21:59
Have a sense of humor ya PC moron.
I do ... still dont find your jokes "funny"
Biff Pileon
02-12-2004, 21:59
How can you tell a black man has just had sex?

He's still wiping the mace from his eyes.

Actually, thats pretty damn funny. ;)

Why are black men always thinking about sex?

Because their heads are covered with pubic hairs.
Andaluciae
02-12-2004, 22:00
calm in the room! It's best to just respect the fact that other people are different. I know a dude and he's black. He's cool as could be.
Emily Susan Brown
02-12-2004, 22:02
Oh hell I've got black, white Indian Irish you name it friends. They make whity jokes I make jokes about them and we all laugh. None of it is true but it's still funny. I bet 75%+ of all jokes are some form of steryotype such as blond jokes.
Armed Bookworms
02-12-2004, 22:14
...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WOW!!!

what is the world coming to, just because the united states is a hegemon and has the ability to find wars does not mean they have choice of taking away an innocent mans live just becuase he is a muslim living in Iraq. This Marine has to be charged liek all the other people being charged of murder, this absolutely ridiculous and since i am a muslim i am appauled. There has to be a course actiont taken, to justify the muslims mans death
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have no idea what that Soldier has seen. How many bodies were moved with bombs under them.

How was the soldier to know the guy wasnt about to roll over with a bomb in his hands.

War is hell, sometimes it is hard to tell the good from the bad, the innocents from the enemy.

Regretfully sometimes the wrong people die.
"innocent"? No, he was part of a group of insurgents who were fighting our marines, hardly an innocent. Since the reporter ws not there for the whole incident I will reserve my judgement until all the facts are laid on the table.
The Force Majeure
02-12-2004, 22:34
Interesting how many steadfast anti-christians are pro radial muslim.
UpwardThrust
02-12-2004, 22:36
Interesting how many steadfast anti-christians are pro radial muslim.
Um thought we made it clear we are pro not being an asswhipe and stereotyping not necessarily pro Muslim extremists (or radicals whatever)

Would have been mad irregardless of who is stereotyped
Booslandia
03-12-2004, 08:31
Interesting how many steadfast anti-christians are pro radial muslim.

Oh dude, don't make yourself look like one of the legions of little-brain-big-mouth sufferers that way. Isn't my asshat list long enough without having to add you to it? Enough with your hate already. Or if you MUST hate something, go put your body where your mouth is and give the rest of us a chance of watching you take your chances of removing one more impurity from the gene pool.
Greedy Pig
03-12-2004, 09:41
Interesting how many steadfast anti-christians are pro radial muslim.

Incorrect.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 16:18
Remember I wasn't advocating genocide. Plus, if my neighbor was expressing fundamentalist muslim ideology right after a major terrorist attack, I might go after him. If he was a peaceful guy, I would leave him alone. That was my point.

*nods* I concede the point.
Takuma
03-12-2004, 16:26
...Because people are loosers who should be shot.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 16:27
To be fair, you can't equate the Government with the Religion. People say the US is a Christian nation (even though we're not) and, yet, we have freedom of speech (something condemned in the Bible) and freedom of religion. Just because the government of the Sudan or Saudi Arabia does something, doesn't mean it's condoned by Qur'an.

Even in Iran, a Muslim theocracy, people have the freedom to be Jewish or Christian without problems.


Coincidentally, the poster previously known as Keruvalia has now openly confessed to being a muslim. So much for pretentions of fairness.

I don't see the point in pretending to be fair.

This person was merely posing as a neutral, specifically, pretending to be jewish, and now shows his/her real colours.

This person is now simply part of the enemy. Probably, he/she was part of the enemy all along, operating under false colours.

No truce nor parley!
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 16:29
Coincidentally, the poster previously known as Keruvalia has now openly confessed to being a muslim. So much for pretentions of fairness.

I don't see the point in pretending to be fair.

This person was merely posing as a neutral, specifically, pretending to be jewish, and now shows his/her real colours.

This person is now simply part of the enemy. Probably, he/she was part of the enemy all along, operating under false colours.

No truce nor parley!
WTF? what does his being muslem have to do with his statement? seemed to make a lot of sense to me!
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 16:46
WTF? what does his being muslem have to do with his statement? seemed to make a lot of sense to me!

It has everything to do with the thread. He/she pretended to be a disinterested neutral, a jew or jewess even, testifying to the fairness and innocence of muslims. I consider that to be a form of bearing false witness.
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 16:48
It has everything to do with the thread. He/she pretended to be a disinterested neutral, a jew or jewess even, testifying to the fairness and innocence of muslims. I consider that to be a form of bearing false witness.
I couldn’t find where they clamed to be anything (maybe I missed it) weather Muslim or disinterested … so on and so forth …
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 16:58
I couldn’t find where they clamed to be anything (maybe I missed it) weather Muslim or disinterested … so on and so forth …

Oh, just start back in the thread. It should be easy to find.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 17:05
Ummm ... I go to a mosque every day ... a nice man from Sudan is teaching me Arabic ... for free ... and I'm a Jew! Nobody has ignored me. They have prayer time and I sit politely off to the side and study and nobody bothers me or forces me to pray with them.

I think it is you who doesn't know anything.


There, there, right there!
Chess Squares
03-12-2004, 17:06
and it only took probably 13 pages to get completely off topic
Sdaeriji
03-12-2004, 17:06
There, there, right there!

Does that somehow change the truth in what he said?
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 17:09
There, there, right there!
Two things Two still don’t see where he/she clamed to be Muslim
And

Jew is sometimes considered both race and religion maybe he is Jew by his definition of race and a Muslim religion.
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 17:10
and it only took probably 13 pages to get completely off topic
Practically started off ... of topic
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 17:33
Two things Two still don’t see where he/she clamed to be Muslim
And

Jew is sometimes considered both race and religion maybe he is Jew by his definition of race and a Muslim religion.



http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378470&highlight=Keruvalia

'War is the recourse our enemies have chosen, and I say, give 'em all they want.'

Sherman
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 17:35
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378470&highlight=Keruvalia

'War is the recourse our enemies have chosen, and I say, give 'em all they want.'

Sherman
Um that just kind of proves that he WAS a Jew and now a muslim ... good for him he converted faith

Still means he can be of the jew ethniticity without subscribing to the attached religion

So really proves nothing :p
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 17:53
Um that just kind of proves that he WAS a Jew and now a muslim ... good for him he converted faith

Still means he can be of the jew ethniticity without subscribing to the attached religion

So really proves nothing :p

It proves that said person is a muslim, and therefore an enemy of the human race.

Are you by any chance one as well?
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 17:58
Hmmm. Let's see. If I'm a Christian, and you're not, you're going to Hell. I don't have to do anything except harangue you about it (depending on the denomination). If I'm a Jew, and you're not, then I'm a Jew, and I'm one of the "chosen" and you're not. If I'm a Buddhist, it doesn't matter anymore.

But, if I'm a Muslim, and you're not, you're an infidel by definition. And I get extra credit if I kill you.
Chess Squares
03-12-2004, 18:00
ill just make an on off topic post that states the purpose of the thread

alot of americans are ignorant racists who hate people just because the media villifies some of them and alot of americans are too stupid too differentiate
Keruvalia
03-12-2004, 18:07
It proves that said person is a muslim, and therefore an enemy of the human race.


It must be sad going through life blind.
Sdaeriji
03-12-2004, 18:14
It proves that said person is a muslim, and therefore an enemy of the human race.

Are you by any chance one as well?

There's about 1.3 billion people who would disagree with you.
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 18:23
Chess Squares, I'm more than willing to treat people as individuals. I'm not an ignorant racist.

I would, however, point out that anyone who flies civilian airliners into buildings in support of some cause, anyone who supports them, anyone who doesn't apologize for them, anyone who thinks they did the right thing, anyone who wants to do more of the same, anyone who shoots from places of worship yet wants those places protected, anyone who hides behind women and children, anyone who uses a hospital full of patients as a firing position, anyone who mutilates the dead for sport, anyone who shoots non-combatants on purpose on video and broadcasts it on TV, anyone who thinks that watching that sort of thing is great and good because the US is finally getting theirs, anyone who even hints at saying they'd never turn in someone planning to kill a lot of innocent civilians, had better get their body bag picked out right now.

I'll gladly be the first to step up and pull the trigger without any hesitation. It's not racist of me to believe those things. And it's nothing personal. Just taking out the garbage. :sniper:
Roach-Busters
03-12-2004, 18:25
I don't hate Muslims. The overwhelmingly vast majority of them are gentle, peace-loving people. However, as for the Marine who killed the unarmed, wounded Iraqi in the mosque, I see no reason why he should be punished. Yes, it was tragic, regrettable, and unfortunate. But he should not be chastised for valuing his own safety and life. Like the communists, the enemy in Iraq is not above attaching explosive devices to their dead and wounded, so that unsuspecting people are blown to smithereens along with the wounded or dead person. The soldier was well-aware of this fact, and knew that the risks were not worth taking. Hence, he shot first, just in case the wounded man had been armed. If I were in his shoes, I'd have done the same thing.
Sdaeriji
03-12-2004, 18:25
Chess Squares, I'm more than willing to treat people as individuals. I'm not an ignorant racist.

I would, however, point out that anyone who flies civilian airliners into buildings in support of some cause, anyone who supports them, anyone who doesn't apologize for them, anyone who thinks they did the right thing, anyone who wants to do more of the same, anyone who shoots from places of worship yet wants those places protected, anyone who hides behind women and children, anyone who uses a hospital full of patients as a firing position, anyone who mutilates the dead for sport, anyone who shoots non-combatants on purpose on video and broadcasts it on TV, anyone who thinks that watching that sort of thing is great and good because the US is finally getting theirs, anyone who even hints at saying they'd never turn in someone planning to kill a lot of innocent civilians, had better get their body bag picked out right now.

I'll gladly be the first to step up and pull the trigger without any hesitation. It's not racist of me to believe those things. And it's nothing personal. Just taking out the garbage. :sniper:

Then put your money where your mouth is. Join the Army and ask to be shipped to Iraq.
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 18:29
I guess we might chastize the SAS when they liberated the Iranian Embassy in London years ago.

It was part of their standard operating procedure to put a round into the head of each dropped terrorist as each man moved about the building, clearing the building of terrorsts.

Since some terrorists fell in central areas, and these areas were traversed many times by several commandos, some of the terrorists were shot dozens of times in the head as they lay on the ground.

I guess no one is going to hold the jihadis to account who shot and wounded the Blackwater operatives who were working in Falluja last spring, then tortured them to death, burned them alive, and chopped up the corpses, hanging their body parts from a bridge and dancing.

Ah, I see. The Marines were holding them to account. As well they should. Because none of the critics of the Marines are ever going to hold a single jihadi to account - ever.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 18:33
There's about 1.3 billion people who would disagree with you.

And about 4.7 billions ( minus a few addled-brained Americans ) who agree.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 18:34
I guess we might chastize the SAS when they liberated the Iranian Embassy in London years ago.

It was part of their standard operating procedure to put a round into the head of each dropped terrorist as each man moved about the building, clearing the building of terrorsts.

Since some terrorists fell in central areas, and these areas were traversed many times by several commandos, some of the terrorists were shot dozens of times in the head as they lay on the ground.

I guess no one is going to hold the jihadis to account who shot and wounded the Blackwater operatives who were working in Falluja last spring, then tortured them to death, burned them alive, and chopped up the corpses, hanging their body parts from a bridge and dancing.

Ah, I see. The Marines were holding them to account. As well they should. Because none of the critics of the Marines are ever going to hold a single jihadi to account - ever.


Hear, hear!
Sdaeriji
03-12-2004, 18:37
And about 4.7 billions ( minus a few addled-brained Americans ) who agree.

So, every single non-Muslim person in the world agrees that Muslims are enemies of the human race?
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 18:43
So, every single non-Muslim person in the world agrees that Muslims are enemies of the human race?

Oh, the vast majority... wanna go ask in India maybe? I'm sure all Bharatiya Janata Party members agree :cool:


Hail Sri Ram!
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 18:44
No, just the Wahabbi variety, as far as I'm concerned, and any other person (Muslim or non-Muslim) who talks about attacking me, much less attempting it.

Wahabbis don't make a secret of wanting to annihilate the West. Our whole outlook on life is a dire threat to their existence. Just our ideas are enough to be a threat to them. So they want to kill us all. They preach about it all the time.

So, kill all of them first. Start now. Get it over with.

Kill anyone who gets that itch to fly planes into our buildings. Kill their families, their friends, burn their houses to the ground.

If you think that's rude, read your history book and find out what the previous King of Jordan did to Palestinians who tried to take over his kingdom. The Palestinians call it "Black September". After the attempted takeover, he rounded up their family members. Tortured them, and had them call the wanted men to come in. Killed them one by one. A lot of them.

Do you think the Palestinians ever again gave Jordan the kind of trouble they've given other countries? Nope.

Do you think the Lebanese who made the mistake of kidnapping a Russian and making demands were taught a lesson by having their relatives kidnapped by the Russians and sent to the original kidnappers in little pieces in a black plastic trash bag? They certainly were. They released their hostages.

Ever wonder why after Fallujah, a number of jihadis in other areas of the country released their hostages? Because for all their talk, the idea of being wounded, and then shot while they lay there might be disconcerting.

"Hmmm. That might hurt."
Sdaeriji
03-12-2004, 18:48
Oh, the vast majority... wanna go ask in India maybe? I'm sure all Bharatiya Janata Party members agree :cool:


Hail Sri Ram!

The "vast majority"? Do you have any actual proof to back up your claims, or are you just pulling this out of ass-space to substantiate your opinion?
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 18:51
The "vast majority"? Do you have any actual proof to back up your claims, or are you just pulling this out of ass-space to substantiate your opinion?


bhiima ruupa dhari asura sanhaare

raamachandra ke kaaja sanvaare
Sdaeriji
03-12-2004, 18:51
bhiima ruupa dhari asura sanhaare

raamachandra ke kaaja sanvaare

Try again in English.
Emily Susan Brown
03-12-2004, 18:53
Kill em all and let Allah sort em out.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 18:54
Try again in English.

Waffor? It's OK for one BILLION Hindu's.


dakshine laksmanyo yasya vame tu janakatmaja

puratoi maarutir yasyaa tam vande raghunandan
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 18:57
Hey, I'm not even Hindu, and I can find out what it means. Part of a prayer to Hanuman.

*high fives Dun*
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 19:03
Hey, I'm not even Hindu, and I can find out what it means. Part of a prayer to Hanuman.

*high fives Dun*


*High fives Gun*
I assure you that the vast majority of all good Hindu's endorse Bush' tough-as-nails stand against terrorism. Unlike certain... flip-floppers.
Alebrica
03-12-2004, 19:24
Kill em all and let Allah sort em out.

...Why are you not banned? :sniper:
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 19:25
Emily was doing a lot worse than that before.
Greedy Pig
03-12-2004, 19:28
Umm. Emily not banned. Free speech?
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 19:48
It proves that said person is a muslim, and therefore an enemy of the human race.

Are you by any chance one as well?
Nope agnostic … though would rather be associated with them then idiots like you

Thank you for making the Muslims look so enlightened (though I am fairly confident most people would when being compared to … (
Portu Cale
03-12-2004, 20:01
No, just the Wahabbi variety, as far as I'm concerned, and any other person (Muslim or non-Muslim) who talks about attacking me, much less attempting it.

Wahabbis don't make a secret of wanting to annihilate the West. Our whole outlook on life is a dire threat to their existence. Just our ideas are enough to be a threat to them. So they want to kill us all. They preach about it all the time.

So, kill all of them first. Start now. Get it over with.

Kill anyone who gets that itch to fly planes into our buildings. Kill their families, their friends, burn their houses to the ground.

If you think that's rude, read your history book and find out what the previous King of Jordan did to Palestinians who tried to take over his kingdom. The Palestinians call it "Black September". After the attempted takeover, he rounded up their family members. Tortured them, and had them call the wanted men to come in. Killed them one by one. A lot of them.

Do you think the Palestinians ever again gave Jordan the kind of trouble they've given other countries? Nope.

Do you think the Lebanese who made the mistake of kidnapping a Russian and making demands were taught a lesson by having their relatives kidnapped by the Russians and sent to the original kidnappers in little pieces in a black plastic trash bag? They certainly were. They released their hostages.

Ever wonder why after Fallujah, a number of jihadis in other areas of the country released their hostages? Because for all their talk, the idea of being wounded, and then shot while they lay there might be disconcerting.

"Hmmm. That might hurt."

You are Adolf re-incarnated or something? Waabists want to anihilate the west, and bigoted people like you give them a hell of an argument do defend that.

PS: Funny thing you talk about the palestinians and the jordans.. perhaps the reason the palestinians never pissed off the jordanians again, is because the Jordanian queen is Palestinian herself :rolleyes:
Biff Pileon
03-12-2004, 20:11
You are Adolf re-incarnated or something? Waabists want to anihilate the west, and bigoted people like you give them a hell of an argument do defend that.

PS: Funny thing you talk about the palestinians and the jordans.. perhaps the reason the palestinians never pissed off the jordanians again, is because the Jordanian queen is Palestinian herself :rolleyes:

You are funny and vastly ill-informed. Queen Noor is an American. The King is 1/2 American. How is that for irony? ;)
My Gun Not Yours
03-12-2004, 20:11
It's acknowledged publicly by Palestinian militants that the reason they don't mess with Jordan and take it over is because of fear - fear of a repeat of Black September.

That's where the name came from.

I see no reason not to kill every Wahhabi on Earth. They continually announce that it is their plan. I didn't hear the Jews announcing that they were going to annihilate all Germans back in 1934. So the Hitler comparison is inadequate.

Try and look at it this way. Go look up the Mongol conquest of Baghdad, 1258. The fall of the Assassins. The sack of Baghdad.

At first, the Mongols were not interested in conquest. They just wanted a trade treaty. But someone decided that killing traders and diplomats, and cutting their heads off for sport, was more fun, and more in line with their religion (esp. in the case of the Assassins).

So the Mongols "showed up". And sacked the place. And killed millions of people. And it was the end of the Caliphate.

I can't fault the Mongols for doing that. Right now, things are still not as bad as the Mongols - we haven't killed everyone in sight and haven't burned Baghdad to the ground.

But, if the Wahhabis keep preaching and keep recruiting, and things get worse, I can certainly imagine the US showing up somewhere, and cleaning house. And I wouldn't fault them for it.
Portu Cale
03-12-2004, 20:16
It's acknowledged publicly by Palestinian militants that the reason they don't mess with Jordan and take it over is because of fear - fear of a repeat of Black September.

That's where the name came from.

I see no reason not to kill every Wahhabi on Earth. They continually announce that it is their plan. I didn't hear the Jews announcing that they were going to annihilate all Germans back in 1934. So the Hitler comparison is inadequate.

Try and look at it this way. Go look up the Mongol conquest of Baghdad, 1258. The fall of the Assassins. The sack of Baghdad.

At first, the Mongols were not interested in conquest. They just wanted a trade treaty. But someone decided that killing traders and diplomats, and cutting their heads off for sport, was more fun, and more in line with their religion (esp. in the case of the Assassins).

So the Mongols "showed up". And sacked the place. And killed millions of people. And it was the end of the Caliphate.

I can't fault the Mongols for doing that. Right now, things are still not as bad as the Mongols - we haven't killed everyone in sight and haven't burned Baghdad to the ground.

But, if the Wahhabis keep preaching and keep recruiting, and things get worse, I can certainly imagine the US showing up somewhere, and cleaning house. And I wouldn't fault them for it.

The mongols, the nice people that had entire cities decapitated? Hell, if i lived near the mongols, i'd kill everyone of them i see, diplomats and traders too.. or run real fast.
If people had your reasoning, every german after ww2 would have been killed, just because they, at a time, supported hitler. NICE!

I'm not defending waabists. The thing is, the things your propose make YOU worse than them.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 21:18
Nope agnostic … though would rather be associated with them then idiots like you

Thank you for making the Muslims look so enlightened (though I am fairly confident most people would when being compared to … (


Considering that your nation is at war with muslims... that makes you a traitor. Any association with that lot is simply treason.
*ponders*
Does America still use the electric chair?
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 21:27
Considering that your nation is at war with muslims... that makes you a traitor. Any association with that lot is simply treason.
*ponders*
Does America still use the electric chair?
Correction we are at war with a "Group" that happen to be Muslims, not the religion nor everyone in that religion.
People being unable to differentiate between the two is not my fault (obviously a fault of yours)

(and if you are curious Minnesota has no death penalty)
Greedy Pig
03-12-2004, 21:35
Wow. Dunborrow. You really think that we are at war with Muslims? God Heaven's no!

We are fighting against muslim organised fundemantalist fanatics that cause harm. Which unfortunately, their influence is very big in muslim nations because of poor education. Most of the people don't go to schools, but they go to religious schools. With religious schools not being moderated, (Like Indonesia, Pakistan, etc.), they teach students all kinds of nonsense, like "America is the Great Satan".

I really hope your trolling.
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 21:36
Correction we are at war with a "Group" that happen to be Muslims, not the religion nor everyone in that religion.
People being unable to differentiate between the two is not my fault (obviously a fault of yours)

(and if you are curious Minnesota has no death penalty)


But your Federal Government does...

What is the point of differentiaton? It would merely allow enemies to escape death.

The crimes of muslims are a matter between them and their maker.
The job of the US Government is merely that of arranging the meeting.
UpwardThrust
03-12-2004, 21:39
But your Federal Government does...

What is the point of differentiaton? It would merely allow enemies to escape death.

The crimes of muslims are a matter between them and their maker.
The job of the US Government is merely that of arranging the meeting.
Ok this is the point I have to say you got to be kidding right? You cant possibly be this ignorant. (god I hope not)
Dunbarrow
03-12-2004, 21:42
Wow. Dunborrow. You really think that we are at war with Muslims? God Heaven's no!

We are fighting against muslim organised fundemantalist fanatics that cause harm. Which unfortunately, their influence is very big in muslim nations because of poor education. Most of the people don't go to schools, but they go to religious schools. With religious schools not being moderated, (Like Indonesia, Pakistan, etc.), they teach students all kinds of nonsense, like "America is the Great Satan".

I really hope your trolling.

I should like to point you to the post of one of the previous muslim posters who stated that: all muslims are brothers and sisters.

That being so, I see not point WHATSOEVER in differentation, with the possible ( no, certain! ) exception of such islamic sects as the Ahmadiyya's ( of whom there are plenty in India ) who are completely pacifistic, much like the Dunkers during the American Civil War, and are despised by their 'brothers'.

It is silly to differentiate between such close-knit brothers. Have a fight with one, and you have a fight with them all.

War is the recourse our enemies have chosen, and I say, give 'em all they want.