NationStates Jolt Archive

Yet another thread by me...Letora...

Okay let's discuss suicide... It's becoming quite the problem...

So in your opinion is suicide cowardly? If so or if not...how is it or isn't it?

In most cases, I would say it isn't. There are those times people kill themselves because they got dumped by a girl/boyfriend and they feel hurt inside or if you've seen the Movie "The Dead Poet's Society", when the main character commits suicide, it is not for a legitimate reason. But if you are in great pain or suffering, then it is not cowardly.

"Is suicide cowardly?"

No real way to tell, I think. One of the primary reasons for suicide is to make others feel sorry they treated the suicide the way they did, so perhaps it's neither cowadly nor courageous in most cases?

If your life doesn't seem worth living then I would support your right to end it.

Dunno man, those kamikaze chaps might have been brainwashed, misguided or what have you- but they definately werent cowards.

Also I gotta be honest if I found out I had Motor neurone disease or somethin like that I would be thinking of ways to pop my own cork before I got too bad.

Dunno man, those kamikaze chaps might have been brainwashed, misguided or what have you- but they definately werent cowards.

Also I gotta be honest if I found out I had Motor neurone disease or somethin like that I would be thinking of ways to pop my own cork before I got too bad.

Yeah....then we gotta look at the Samurai's?

Sepuku...Ritualistic Suicide...
To them that was considered HONOURABLE...

... You don't know why they do it

Y'want someone suffering from serious clinical depression to put themselves through more pain, thats just disgusting on your behalf, people with mental disorders often have a bad state of life, and to call their suicide "cowardly" is really narrow-minded

Just try to imagine puting a noose around your neck and jumping from a bannister, or pointing a loaded gun at your temple and pulling the trigger.

No matter the circumstances (depression, anger, illness) I cannot ever see suicide as a cowardly thing to do.

Yeah....then we gotta look at the Samurai's?

Sepuku...Ritualistic Suicide...
To them that was considered HONOURABLE...
Course maybe they were right;) their culture conditioned them to think about suicide in one way, western cultures condition people to think about suicide in another.

Yes, committing suicide to escape your problems is cowardly. You need to face them and deal with them.

... You don't know why they do it

Y'want someone suffering from serious clinical depression to put themselves through more pain, thats just disgusting on your behalf, people with mental disorders often have a bad state of life, and to call their suicide "cowardly" is really narrow-minded

Woah... Hold the phone...

It's just a question...not a statement...

Yes, committing suicide to escape your problems is cowardly. You need to face them and deal with them.

Though I can agree, in principle, thats easy to say if you arent in their shoes.

Yes, committing suicide to escape your problems is cowardly. You need to face them and deal with them.
Why deal with a problem that can't be solved? For instance let's say you are suffering from a painfull and debilitating physical condition for which there is no cure. Rather than live a diminished life in constant pain and imposing on others you may choose death.

its a big depends.are you commiting suicide because of something you can change or you cant?if you can then yes,its cowardly.if you cant,no,it takes great courage to admit life wont get better and then to throw aside your instinct for survival and kill yourself.

I'm wondering if people think euthanasia is cowardly?

It has nothing to do with cowardice. Everyone I've met that has considered suicide, physically hurt themselves or really tried to kill themselves has had serious problems in their lives coupled with psychological problems.

Nobody that calls suicide cowardly has any idea what these people are going through.

I would say suicide is more selfish than cowardly. Unless your seriously ill.

Though I can agree, in principle, thats easy to say if you arent in their shoes.

True.... But then one could argue that in a way suicide is cowardly because someone just doesn't face it and keep going... And that taking their own life would mabye be taking away a brilliant teacher or writer...

If your life doesn't seem worth living then I would support your right to end it.
This is a very short-sighed viewpoint. Many, if not most suicides are the result of depression, temporary circumstances, or a misperception of reality. Allowing people who have no really serious problems ( such as a terminal illness ) to comitt suicide is tatamount to murder, or at least manslaughter. There are far too few laws against inaction as opposed to illegal action. I would love to see a law compelling intervention when the circumstances demanded it, perhaps a "failure to act" law.

I do not think suicide is cowardice at all. People do not kill themselves just because they are afraid of something. They are mentally ill individuals, who have mulled over and considered suicide many many times during their sickness. They are usually depressed for some reason, then they start to lose self-esteem and start thinking irrationally. People who feel cheated after someone close to them has committed suicide call them cowards because they feel frustrated and angry. If anything, suicidal people must be taken care of and counselled in order to make them feel good about themselves again.

To go in against your primary instinct can't be cowardice.

Not that I think it's right.

I think suicide should be forced by the government.
People who reachs 29 should kill themselves for the better of society.
Above that age people are no longer "humans", they become "oldies".

I think suicide should be forced by the government.
People who reachs 29 should kill themselves for the better of society.
Above that age people are no longer "humans", they become "oldies".

Woah...don't give me whatever your smoking....

I think suicide should be forced by the government.
People who reachs 29 should kill themselves for the better of society.
Above that age people are no longer "humans", they become "oldies".

Spoken like a true 12 year old :P

euthanasia/assisted suicide - acceptable, perhaps a little selfish, but if you're terminally ill, then why suffer? even if they found a cure for cancer, what are the chances that you'd get it before the cancer killed you off? the chances that this view of mine will change in years to come are likely, depending on medical advances.

because you lost a loved one - it hurts. deal with it. but don't commit suicide.

ritualistic suicide - it's cultural. you are brought up to believe it's good. it's not cowardly. it's not selfish... but only within that culture. looking out, in, it looks incredibly pointless.

if you're depressed or have serious problems mentally - meh... i dunno. i don't have a very high opinion of mentally ill people anyway... it scares me i guess. if they're functioning members of society, my opinion is maybe they should consider it more deeply than those who have never had anything to live for and cannot even involve themselves to do anything worth while (it would be more like euthanasia than just suicide, i suppose)

I think suicide should be forced by the government.
People who reachs 29 should kill themselves for the better of society.
Above that age people are no longer "humans", they become "oldies".

[ Eutrusca politely invites Sblargh to go perform an impossible act upon his own body ]

True.... But then one could argue that in a way suicide is cowardly because someone just doesn't face it and keep going... And that taking their own life would mabye be taking away a brilliant teacher or writer...

I'm not arguing that its not a terrible thing for all involved. But, having been in a very depressed state of mind myself previously, its a very tough ask to just grin and bear it especially when the problems don't let up. (Though obviously, I stuck it though and i'm still here :) I was never quite suicidal though)

I'm not arguing that its not a terrible thing for all involved. But, having been in a very depressed state of mind myself previously, its a very tough ask to just grin and bear it especially when the problems don't let up. (Though obviously, I stuck it though and i'm still here :) I was never quite suicidal though)

Good enough lol... I'm sorry to hear about your problems and didn't mean to bring them up I was just playing "Devils Advocate" to keep the argument going...

Though I can agree, in principle, thats easy to say if you arent in their shoes.
I totally agree with this. I don't think that people who have not ever been in the situation have the right to comment negatively on suicide. Not that I'm saying they should encourage or support it, you understand, but it doesn't seem fair to judge someone who's been suicidal or has actually committed the act unless you understand their circumstances.

Good enough lol... I'm sorry to hear about your problems and didn't mean to bring them up I was just playing "Devils Advocate" to keep the argument going...

Hey, my problems were just adolescent blues, when I came to realise how worthless they were it was all fixed :)

...but my case was easy, and others do have it much worse than me.

I think suicide should be forced by the government.
People who reachs 29 should kill themselves for the better of society.
Above that age people are no longer "humans", they become "oldies".

Lol. Funniest thing I read so far. So what happen to experience eh?

I said yes, but it depends, suicide attacks are cowardly, but people that commit suicide because they are extremely depressed arent cowardly, though in some occasions they are.

Lol. Funniest thing I read so far. So what happen to experience eh?

Put it on CDs, and really, with a 30-year old spam life you don´t need that much knowledge. Medicine would be much simpler since the oldies would be no longer bothering the doctors with their "back pains"

I said yes, but it depends, suicide attacks are cowardly, but people that commit suicide because they are extremely depressed arent cowardly, though in some occasions they are.
I also said yes but for me its the opposite. I think people who commit suicide just because they can't take it anymore are the cowards. People who commit suicide for a cause be it extreme is sacrifice.

Though I can agree, in principle, thats easy to say if you arent in their shoes.

That's a pretty ridiculous argument. How can you know if someone is in "their shoes" or not? Are you only in "their shoes" if you've commited suicide, and therefore cannot speak on the topic? On the other side, are you not in "their shoes" if you haven't commited suicide, therefore no one who is living can have a say in the matter*?

*Trust me, I believe this is just about the weakest argument used for any stance.

If one truly belives it's the only way out, then, no it's not cowardly; but when suicide is sought for a cause unworthy - like Jihad - then, no, it's not. However, for purpose of argument's sake, I voted no.

That's a pretty ridiculous argument. How can you know if someone is in "their shoes" or not? Are you only in "their shoes" if you've commited suicide, and therefore cannot speak on the topic? On the other side, are you not in "their shoes" if you haven't commited suicide, therefore no one who is living can have a say in the matter*?

*Trust me, I believe this is just about the weakest argument used for any stance.
Attempted suicide? Seriously considered suicide? Even just suffered from some of the same problems that some who have committed suicide suffered from? (Clinical depression, for one.) All of those would provide valid insights into their mindset.

Dunno man, those kamikaze chaps
You mean like the Kamikaze Watermelon?

Duh du da da! "Weee!" splat!

That was a Kamikaze Watermelon...

I can't decide whether it is cowardly, so I didn't vote...

Soldiers that know crucial information in a war, and kill themselves to avoid capture, cannot be considered cowardly.

i think that people who want to commit suicide shud b given help n not b called cowards... admittedly it is runnin away from whatever problems they have in their life, but they need to be given help to face those problems and not have to live their screwde up lives without ne help... the idea is that they need friends n if ur callin them a coward then ur not bein a very good friend are u?

I would say suicide is more selfish than cowardly. Unless your seriously ill.

I would say that anyone who considers suicide, *ever*, is seriously ill.

Depression is an illness, for crying out loud.

And personally, I think it's more selfish to expect people to live so that their relatives can be spared suffering... what about the individual's suffering? Not as important, eh?

I wouldnt say cowardly, but I definatly say selfish

I wouldnt say cowardly, but I definatly say selfish

So you'd rather they suffer?

...

Why exactly are you calling THEM selfish?

no i don't think it is unless they are doing it because of problems they can change

I would say suicide is more selfish than cowardly. Unless your seriously ill.

mhmmm... Don't know what to say...

I also said yes but for me its the opposite. I think people who commit suicide just because they can't take it anymore are the cowards. People who commit suicide for a cause be it extreme is sacrifice.

I do not get these...

holy shit, selfish and cowardly ah? Hm.

I think that people who want to commit suicide should get help, absolutely. They need help from someone who can shake them out of their selfishness. If you're thinking of doing something like that, you are only thinking of yourself. You're not thinking about the people who care about you, or the person who finds your body, or the people who have to clean up after you. You're just stuck in this loop of "poor me".

To quote Anon, it's a permenent solution to a temporary problem.

no i don't think it is unless they are doing it because of problems they can change

What do you mean by 'can' change... Everything can be changed... to a degree can't it... what is your definition of can... how hard do you have to try before it is defined as not being possible to change?

Please clarify...

The reason I think it's selfish is because my grandmother found her brother's daughter after she'd blown the top of her head off with a shotgun. My grandma had to find her that way, and after they'd taken the body away, my grandma had to clean the blood and brains out of the room.

Whatever problems my second cousin had, they couldn't have been as nasty as having to clean that up and look at it.

To quote Anon, it's a permenent solution to a temporary problem.


Think about that quote... when they say it is a 'permanent' solution, isn't that good... doesn't that mean that its good so that it won't happen again? I thought permanant soloutions were good...

about the selfishness...

Maybe it is, by prinsiple, selfish. but when you are really feeling that horrible it doesn't same selfish at all...

Yes, suicide is cowardly. It is the action taken on the part of the individual to ESCAPE a situation deemed unconfrontable. However, the fact that there is a majority in this vote who feel otherwise indicates that we are not a society that values facing up and toughing out your problems. That also means that this society does not value persistence and the concept of making things go right and persisting until they do. We need to markedly raise our standards, because our standards are too low. An individual is responsible for his/her own condition, which means there is ALWAYS something that can be done to improve the situation. ALWAYS.

The reason I think it's selfish is because my grandmother found her brother's daughter after she'd blown the top of her head off with a shotgun. My grandma had to find her that way, and after they'd taken the body away, my grandma had to clean the blood and brains out of the room.

Whatever problems my second cousin had, they couldn't have been as nasty as having to clean that up and look at it.
You don't think that the problems your cousin had could have been as bad? How do you know? You don't know how EITHER of them were really feeling.

Well to all those atheists out there... does it even matter if its cowardly or not? If you die and your gone forever, why not just end it right now? You've nothing to live for, cause nothing matters! (from the athiest point of view anyways) and all this about "the betterment of humanity" is just some people trying to find purpose in life because without purpose, suicide is what tends to happen.

Think about that quote... when they say it is a 'permanent' solution, isn't that good... doesn't that mean that its good so that it won't happen again? I thought permanant soloutions were good...

about the selfishness...

Maybe it is, by prinsiple, selfish. but when you are really feeling that horrible it doesn't same selfish at all...

Think about that quote? I don't get you. Basically what the quote is saying is that you've got a temporary problem, and your solution to it is killing yourself. It's got the same principle as the saying, "cut off your nose to spite your face", or "cut off your head to cure a cold".

What it's saying is that as a solution, it's just a trifle drastic.

Yes, suicide is cowardly. It is the action taken on the part of the individual to ESCAPE a situation deemed unconfrontable. However, the fact that there is a majority in this vote who feel otherwise indicates that we are not a society that values facing up and toughing out your problems. That also means that this society does not value persistence and the concept of making things go right and persisting until they do. We need to markedly raise our standards, because our standards are too low.
Somtimes 'toughing up' your problems isin't that easy... or is virtually impollible.

It has nothing to do with cowardice. Everyone I've met that has considered suicide, physically hurt themselves or really tried to kill themselves has had serious problems in their lives coupled with psychological problems.


Whoa that’s rough!
You must smell really, really bad.

If one truly belives it's the only way out, then, no it's not cowardly; but when suicide is sought for a cause unworthy - like Jihad - then, no, it's not. However, for purpose of argument's sake, I voted no.

Yeah I second those two points.

But I voted ‘no’ because I view suicide to not be an act of cowardice. Suicide is an act of ‘selfishness’.

Now, I don’t believe the person is being intently selfish, but the act of suicide cause all friends and family to start questioning every single thing they have ever done, as if it was causative. This starts a cycle of self blame, which can cause cohesive social units to implode and and move apart.

In brief: suicide is a selfish act that sends ripples of pain and suffering to all those who knew you.

You don't think that the problems your cousin had could have been as bad? How do you know? You don't know how EITHER of them were really feeling.

Don't you fucking dare. Just don't.

Well to all those atheists out there... does it even matter if its cowardly or not? If you die and your gone forever, why not just end it right now? You've nothing to live for, cause nothing matters! (from the athiest point of view anyways) and all this about "the betterment of humanity" is just some people trying to find purpose in life because without purpose, suicide is what tends to happen.
So you think we should all convert to some religion so that we don't kill are selfs?

HAHAHA...

No offense to your personal religion and your beliefs... but I rather would probably be dead then devote my life and 'purpose' to religion...

Don't you fucking dare. Just don't.
I'm sorry.

So you think we should all convert to some religion so that we don't kill are selfs?

HAHAHA...

No offense to your personal religion and your beliefs... but I rather would probably be dead then devote my life and 'purpose' to religion...

What is your purpose in life? Why do you continue to want to live? Knowing that you will die and become "nothingness" does it even matter when you die?

I'm sorry.

As you should be. Maybe you should let your brain kick in before you spout something you haven't thought about.

" because without purpose, suicide is what tends to happen."

I do agree on that. (to a degree)

I voted "No, suicide is not cowardly"

I can see why people might think it selfish... I was suicidal at one point (lol, that makes me qualified to comment as an authority on the subject :p ), and one of the thoughts that passed through my head is, "I wonder how this person, who hurt me so much, would feel if I did top myself? I hope they feel pain."
But then again, at the time, everything was very bleak and black. I was only prolonging my own suffering by not doing it.

I would in fact say that the only reason I'm still here is because I wasn't brave enough to actually go through with the plans I'd made. Even though things have cleared up, I will always see that point in my life as the one time where I had actual reason to commit suicide and end all the inner pain, then and for the future... but I missed the opportunity.

Well to all those atheists out there... does it even matter if its cowardly or not? If you die and your gone forever, why not just end it right now? You've nothing to live for, cause nothing matters! (from the athiest point of view anyways) and all this about "the betterment of humanity" is just some people trying to find purpose in life because without purpose, suicide is what tends to happen.

Atheists don't think that 'nothing matters'.

Stop trying to project your lack of information onto a group of people.

What is your purpose in life? Why do you continue to want to live? Knowing that you will die and become "nothingness" does it even matter when you die?

No... I agree with you and to tell the truth, I have thought that through philosophicly and I totally agree... and there is no reason for me to want to coninue to live (and I don't really). I don't konw what the purpose of life in general is. But... I am told that there is a reason... (even thought they don't konw what it is, and are just saying that becuase socity says 'stay alive')

So you'd rather they suffer?

...

Why exactly are you calling THEM selfish?

I suppose it depends one how it is done and the situation I do apologise for the bluntness of my reply but I happened to be about 5 metres away from a friend who blew his own head off on the school balcony, im still pretty angry about how he went about it 4 years later, he could have thought of the consequences it would have on the people around him and is family

yet I am for euthanasia for people suffering with crippling illnesses

I voted "No, suicide is not cowardly"

I can see why people might think it selfish... I was suicidal at one point (lol, that makes me qualified to comment as an authority on the subject :p ), and one of the thoughts that passed through my head is, "I wonder how this person, who hurt me so much, would feel if I did top myself? I hope they feel pain."
But then again, at the time, everything was very bleak and black. I was only prolonging my own suffering by not doing it.

I would in fact say that the only reason I'm still here is because I wasn't brave enough to actually go through with the plans I'd made. Even though things have cleared up, I will always see that point in my life as the one time where I had actual reason to commit suicide and end all the inner pain, then and for the future... but I missed the opportunity.

I second the fact that it's through people not being brave enough that they don't kill themselves.

'twas true in my case, also.

Atheists don't think that 'nothing matters'.

Stop trying to project your lack of information onto a group of people.

what matters to you then... and why does it matter?

I voted "No, suicide is not cowardly"

I can see why people might think it selfish... I was suicidal at one point (lol, that makes me qualified to comment as an authority on the subject :p ), and one of the thoughts that passed through my head is, "I wonder how this person, who hurt me so much, would feel if I did top myself? I hope they feel pain."
But then again, at the time, everything was very bleak and black. I was only prolonging my own suffering by not doing it.

I would in fact say that the only reason I'm still here is because I wasn't brave enough to actually go through with the plans I'd made. Even though things have cleared up, I will always see that point in my life as the one time where I had actual reason to commit suicide and end all the inner pain, then and for the future... but I missed the opportunity.

Dying is easy. Living takes courage. That's why suicide is cowardly.

I second the fact that it's through people not being brave enough that they don't kill themselves.

'twas true in my case, also.

I third that...

Yes, committing suicide to escape your problems is cowardly. You need to face them and deal with them.
You think they would commit suicide if they thought they could handle their problems?
I know four people who have killed themselves. Different reasons, mental issues (more than just depression) etc

But what I have always wondered are these fathers or mothers who kill their family and then kill themselves. Why they think that their kids and husband/wife can't survive without them?

I suppose it depends one how it is done and the situation I do apologise for the bluntness of my reply but I happened to be about 5 metres away from a friend who blew his own head off on the school balcony, im still pretty angry about how he went about it 4 years later, he could have thought of the consequences it would have on the people around him and is family

yet I am for euthinasia(sp) for people suffering with crippling illnesses

Sigh. This is the problem. I know enough about the feelings of *being* suicidal to get incredibly pissed off at people who call it selfish or cowardly...

...but I do also understand where you're coming from also.

Suicide hurts *everyone* involved. But from what I've experience, part of wanting to die is thinking that no one will be hurt if you're gone. Part of it is thinking that your family and friends would be better off without you. And yes, often part of it is "I hope the people who've hurt me suffer for it". That's because people are just... people.

I never get this whole attitude of 'Omg, they've done something I could never do... they must be fundamentally different'. No one ever seems to go 'well, OBVIOUSLY they could do this horrible thing because the circumstances they were in were different to the one I'm in'.

A better solution is, of course, treatment. But when you're depressed, you simply don't think like that. It takes *just* as much courage to get help as it does to die. And that's only assuming people can get the help they need, which they sometimes can't.

I third that...
And me...

And I also didn't want to put that burden on my family and few friends I have.

Dying is easy. Living takes courage. That's why suicide is cowardly.
I personaly believe that they both take an extreme amount of courage. It is just that people are aware that you only have one chance to live, therefor, if you find that you want to go the other root after you die/death is not as good as you thought, you can't.

On another note:

There are many ways to think about life. Instead of commiting suicide, what you could do is act like you have nothing to lose, don't put effort into life, and do whatever happens to you. Don't use your decition making abilities in a positive way. It is really hard to explaine... but it sames to work. (work meaning not killing yourself by thinking that way)

Dying is easy. Living takes courage. That's why suicide is cowardly.

That, my friend is complete and utter horseshit. Come and stand on the other side of depressive illness and tell me that.

what matters to you then... and why does it matter?

What matters to me is that, while I'm *not* depressed, my friends and family, and a) enjoying their company and b) not hurting them.

That's why I try to limit the damage done to myself in the times where I *am* depressed.

Sigh. This is the problem. I know enough about the feelings of *being* suicidal to get incredibly pissed off at people who call it selfish or cowardly...

...but I do also understand where you're coming from also.

Suicide hurts *everyone* involved. But from what I've experience, part of wanting to die is thinking that no one will be hurt if you're gone. Part of it is thinking that your family and friends would be better off without you. And yes, often part of it is "I hope the people who've hurt me suffer for it". That's because people are just... people.

I never get this whole attitude of 'Omg, they've done something I could never do... they must be fundamentally different'. No one ever seems to go 'well, OBVIOUSLY they could do this horrible thing because the circumstances they were in were different to the one I'm in'.

A better solution is, of course, treatment. But when you're depressed, you simply don't think like that. It takes *just* as much courage to get help as it does to die. And that's only assuming people can get the help they need, which they sometimes can't.



Persioly what I should have said. lol.

what matters to you then... and why does it matter?
Well, one would assume that if there's no god you get to decide for yourself what meaning your life has. Isn't that a fun idea? No absolute morality so we all get to choose everything for ourselves. Pretty liberating. Maybe the aim of life is to pusue every pleasure you can? Or to convince other people that god doesn't exist and destroy their comfortable, black and white way of looking at the world? Imagine the possibilities.
As for why: The same reason a religious person finds meaning. The most rational and powerful being decides on the meaning; except this being isn't God, it's man.

That, my friend is complete and utter horseshit. Come and stand on the other side of depressive illness and tell me that.

Ummm....you're telling me that if I look at it from the point of view of someone who suffers from a mental illness that it becomes horseshit, because it makes sense from the sane side of the fence.

As for the way suicidal people think people will suffer less with them dead, or that the person who hurt them will suffer, what are those but thinking errors committed by someone mentally ill?

Just because they're common doesn't mean they're right, logical or sane.

What matters to me is that, while I'm *not* depressed, my friends and family, and a) enjoying their company and b) not hurting them.

That's why I try to limit the damage done to myself in the times where I *am* depressed.

Um... exactly why does your family matter? in probably 100 years or less, they will most likely all be dead, you with them. Will they have mattered? Why? They are just atoms! Why do we love? why do we care? Is it all just one big joke? An accident?

To all of you who think suicide is a selfish act. You really think they want to be that sick? Just to annoy you?

You people obviously don't know anything about serious depression. They can't think about anything else than their misery. It's not like they don't want to but they just can't. They may realise that their depression is causing problems to people around them but that just makes them even more depressed.

Um... exactly why does your family matter? in probably 100 years or less, they will most likely all be dead, you with them. Will they have mattered? Why? They are just atoms! Why do we love? why do we care? Is it all just one big joke? An accident?

I personally think that learning to love other people is the point of life. To care about someone other than yourself is to grow up. You're talking in nihilist terms, and frankly, that's never withstood close scrutiny for more than five minutes.

Well, one would assume that if there's no god you get to decide for yourself what meaning your life has. Isn't that a fun idea? No absolute morality so we all get to choose everything for ourselves. Pretty liberating. Maybe the aim of life is to pusue every pleasure you can? Or to convince other people that god doesn't exist and destroy their comfortable, black and white way of looking at the world? Imagine the possibilities.
As for why: The same reason a religious person finds meaning. The most rational and powerful being decides on the meaning; except this being isn't God, it's man.

Why not? If you think about it, You have nothing to lose by believing in God, if your athiesm is true, then you will die and nothing will have mattered, but If God is true, then I wouldnt like to be in your position when you meet your end. Not only does God give you a purpose, its a purpose worth living for.

It's amazing how much Bull shit and good shit there is on this topic (yes, yes, I konw... shortsided view, might same bs to me but is opinions.... yayaya shutup......)

Well, I'm another one of those "it depends" kind of people...

I'm for the euthenasia style of suicide... But only in a case where getting better is not possible, and life really is no longer worth living (as in, your mind was going to deteriorate to the point of being a vegetable, or you had to live in incredible physical pain, or whatnot)

But for anything that stems from an emotional problem, then killing yourself shouldn't be an option...

Yes, getting the courage to actually kill yourself must be an incredibly difficult thing to do (I know I don't have the stones to do it), but it takes an even greater amount of strength to face the problem, and get past it...

I can't speak from experience, because honestly, my life has been pretty good all along... But I'd like to think that there isn't a single dilemma that I couldn't overcome, or at least push down enough to go on living... Or, better yet, find help...

So on one hand, I'm not against euthenasia, and on the other, I'm against suicide from merely emotional pain... There are better ways...

On another related note, in a sense, our bodies and our lives are our property... We should be able to do with them as we please... If one wants to give up his/her privelege of living, then who is anyone else to say that they can't? But on the same token, our lives don't really belong to just us... They belong to all of those that care about us as well... So if ending your life ends your pain, but causes pain in others, isn't that wrong? I mean, isn't suffering the heroic thing to do? I guess not everyone has the hero instinct, but I'm one of them, and would sacrifice my well-being for the sake of others... If my prolonged suffering holds off the suffering of others, then by all means, I'll take the punishment...

And finally, to address the whole "atheists shouldn't care" bit:

I'm an atheist, and yes, I think that death isn't really a major problem, because after it comes, I won't be around to worry about it... But why should that mean I should welcome it? Why do I have to live for a goal to enjoy living?

Life doesn't need a purpose, or a meaning outside of how you view it... I don't need to "know" that I'm here because some higher power put me here, and that I'll get to go to Disneyland in the sky when I die... Why should I live my life as a subservient? Why should I live my life just to earn something?

Nope, I live my life because I like life... It's a neat place here on Earth... I know that death is coming, but I would like it to stay away as long as possible, so I have more time to enjoy my world and my life...

How is that purpose any less meaningful than the "purpose" of the religious?

Dying is easy. Living takes courage. That's why suicide is cowardly.

It is very hard to actually look at the knife and cut your wrists with it, especially when you have the doubt playing in your mind, "What if things do get better, as everyone says? What if there are future opportunities ahead for me? What would my family think? What would my friends think?"
It takes a very single-minded drive to brush aside these doubts, and also, to actually do the deed.
But more importantly, in your darkest hour when you're most likely to commit suicide, you really do see no hope. So you can't factor in any possible solutions - therefore there's not much point, IMHO, in trying to say that commiting suicide is cowardly - you see it as the only way. Doing the deed itself becomes the challenge to overcome, not living what you see is a dead-end life.
Suicide can be foolish (as in my case it would have been), but not cowardly.

I personally think that learning to love other people is the point of life. To care about someone other than yourself is to grow up. You're talking in nihilist terms, and frankly, that's never withstood close scrutiny for more than five minutes.

but what is love? is it just a bunch of electrons buzzing around the neurons in our brain? Or is it something more? If its something more, why is it something more? Was it just an accident? Did love just happen?

Suicide is indeed cowardly, and I also am qualified to speak on this subject. One commits suicide because he (I'll use "he" because it's shorter than "she") does not want to face pain. He feels that the pain of a premature death is less than that of living. So the coward stops all the pain he would ever feel from ever being felt, rather than facing the onslaught with honor. Whenever suicidal thoughts enter my head, I simply remind myself that there are better ways to die. If one doesn't want to continue living, he should cease doing so in a manner becoming of an honorable man, make productive his disregard of his own life, and do so bravely. He who commits suicide will be remembered as the one who "just couldn't take it," whereas he who dies valiantly will be remembered as the one who did just that.

On a lighter note, unsolicited counseling should not be provided to those who are suicidal. After all, suicide is just nature's way of removing those who are too weak to live from the gene pool.

In conclusion - delenda Carthago est.

To all of you who think suicide is a selfish act. You really think they want to be that sick? Just to annoy you?

You people obviously don't know anything about serious depression. They can't think about anything else than their misery. It's not like they don't want to but they just can't. They may realise that their depression is causing problems to people around them but that just makes them even more depressed.
I totally fully agree. It feels exactly like this... (you should become a writer... good at explaining things)

Course maybe they were right;) their culture conditioned them to think about suicide in one way, western cultures condition people to think about suicide in another.

Keep in mind, though, that seppuku was not considered so much "honorable" as a way to restore one's lost honor. It was often granted to a samurai in a position where the only other option would be execution or being stripped of one's title and forced to become a peasant, subject to the humiliation of serving another samurai as a serf - the ultimate dishonor. If you were about to be executed, wouldn't you rather take your own life? I know I would. Having attempted suicide twice while struggling with depression, I know how tough it can be. I wouldn't say it's cowardly; however, it can be the end result of giving up in some cases. It depends entirely on the individual case.

Suicide is indeed cowardly, and I also am qualified to speak on this subject. One commits suicide because he (I'll use "he" because it's shorter than "she") does not want to face pain. He feels that the pain of a premature death is less than that of living. So the coward stops all the pain he would ever feel from ever being felt, rather than facing the onslaught with honor. Whenever suicidal thoughts enter my head, I simply remind myself that there are better ways to die. If one doesn't want to continue living, he should cease doing so in a manner becoming of an honorable man, make productive his disregard of his own life, and do so bravely. He who commits suicide will be remembered as the one who "just couldn't take it," whereas he who dies valiantly will be remembered as the one who did just that.

On a lighter note, unsolicited counseling should not be provided to those who are suicidal. After all, suicide is just nature's way of removing those who are too weak to live from the gene pool.

In conclusion - delenda Carthago est.


ha... thats just like the saying about war being good because it is good for human population and the economy... whats next?

Depression? Sounds more like natural selection to me...

/veteran of severe depression (1/3 of my life and counting...)
//nothing like that

Um... exactly why does your family matter? in probably 100 years or less, they will most likely all be dead, you with them. Will they have mattered? Why? They are just atoms! Why do we love? why do we care? Is it all just one big joke? An accident?
its called a sence of self perservation, we stick with people who make us stronger...
The meaning of life and why we care, to procreate, so in away we will live forever by passing on our gene's. We care for our children because they are a part of us so we want them to be strong so they can procreate and pass our genes on further so we survive.
Love, love is an illusion our sub conscience finds someone that it thinks has the qualities that will make our offspring strong, it then releases, hormones to make us want to procreate with this person.
our subconscience mind(the id) has not really developed since primative man.

Hence atheists care because our mind makes us care

ha... thats just like the saying about war being good because it is good for human population and the economy... whats next? federal funding for serial killers becuase the get rid of people?

You can't logically argue against the war thing, and no, we shouldn't fund serial killers, because charities are by nature non-profit.

/likes nothing more than a good war (for different reasons than above)

but what is love? is it just a bunch of electrons buzzing around the neurons in our brain? Or is it something more? If its something more, why is it something more? Was it just an accident? Did love just happen?

Cut the bull. Love is something more, and it's not just an accident, it's a survival strategy.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/nihilism.htm

There, now you can look up your nihilism, and see how it's illogical and destructive.

its called a sence of self perservation, we stick with people who make us stronger...
The meaning of life and why we care, to procreate, so in away we will live forever by passing on our gene's. We care for our children because they are a part of us so we want them to be strong so they can procreate and pass our genes on further so we survive.
Love, love is an illusion our sub conscience finds someone that it thinks has the qualities that will make our offspring strong, it then releases, hormones to make us want to procreate with this person.
our subconscience mind(the id) has not really developed since primative man.

Hence atheists care because our mind makes us care

How do you explain Homosexuality? A mental disorder?

How do you explain Homosexuality? A mental disorder?
Interesting take...
As much as I really don't care about homosexuality, the point is strong.

Keep in mind, though, that seppuku was not considered so much "honorable" as a way to restore one's lost honor. It was often granted to a samurai in a position where the only other option would be execution or being stripped of one's title and forced to become a peasant, subject to the humiliation of serving another samurai as a serf - the ultimate dishonor. If you were about to be executed, wouldn't you rather take your own life? I know I would. Having attempted suicide twice while struggling with depression, I know how tough it can be. I wouldn't say it's cowardly; however, it can be the end result of giving up in some cases. It depends entirely on the individual case.

I couldn't do it. I couldn't kill myself. I want to live, and that is too strong for me to overcome. I'm afraid that if I were about to be executed, I'd have to let them execute me. I couldn't do it myself.

Um... exactly why does your family matter? in probably 100 years or less, they will most likely all be dead, you with them. Will they have mattered? Why? They are just atoms! Why do we love? why do we care? Is it all just one big joke? An accident?

They won't HAVE mattered at all. But, in the here and now, they matter. Maybe not to everyone, but certainly to me.

Something doesn't have to have universal implications to be important.

We love because we are essentially self-serving automatons, and love feels pleasant. We care for a similar reason.

It can't be a joke, since I don't believe in any one outside of it to have 'made' it as a joke. And just because something is an accident doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Suicide is indeed cowardly, and I also am qualified to speak on this subject. One commits suicide because he (I'll use "he" because it's shorter than "she") does not want to face pain. He feels that the pain of a premature death is less than that of living. So the coward stops all the pain he would ever feel from ever being felt, rather than facing the onslaught with honor. Whenever suicidal thoughts enter my head, I simply remind myself that there are better ways to die. If one doesn't want to continue living, he should cease doing so in a manner becoming of an honorable man, make productive his disregard of his own life, and do so bravely. He who commits suicide will be remembered as the one who "just couldn't take it," whereas he who dies valiantly will be remembered as the one who did just that.

On a lighter note, unsolicited counseling should not be provided to those who are suicidal. After all, suicide is just nature's way of removing those who are too weak to live from the gene pool.

In conclusion - delenda Carthago est.

Your point of view is cruel, short-sighted, and, yes, unqualified. Many people think about suicide occasionally.

Have you ever attempted it? Struggled with it? Torn yourself back from the brink?

I thought not.

If you wish to live your life according to a Japanese code of honor, then go ahead. I would much rather be happy about my own life when I die than worry about what other people will think of me when I'm gone. Everyone loves Edgar Allen Poe, Silvia Plath, Virginia Woolf - yet they were deeply dissatisfied with their own lives, deeply melancholy and depressed. Woolf couldn't take it any more, and killed herself.

Depression is not a disease for "wussies," and people who overcome serious suicidal considerations and deep depression either were strong people, or forced themselves to become strong in order to fight. Either way, you wouldn't be belittling others' accomplishments if you had really gone through it yourself.

How do you explain Homosexuality? A mental disorder?

In a sense, yeah, that's pretty much it...

Why that is true is a case for another topic (unless you guys really want to get into it here), but to sum it up, homosexuality is not a choice...

Yes, suicide is cowardly. It is the action taken on the part of the individual to ESCAPE a situation deemed unconfrontable. However, the fact that there is a majority in this vote who feel otherwise indicates that we are not a society that values facing up and toughing out your problems. That also means that this society does not value persistence and the concept of making things go right and persisting until they do. We need to markedly raise our standards, because our standards are too low. An individual is responsible for his/her own condition, which means there is ALWAYS something that can be done to improve the situation. ALWAYS.

Cut the bull. Love is something more, and it's not just an accident, it's a survival strategy.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/nihilism.htm

There, now you can look up your nihilism, and see how it's illogical and destructive.

What is right then? what is logical? What is your purpose? How can an athiest have a purpose that matters? I know nihilism is illogical, I studyed it. nihilism is just end stage athiesm, the final realization that if we were just accidents created from nothing by no one, then nothing matters.

This is a very short-sighed viewpoint. Many, if not most suicides are the result of depression, temporary circumstances, or a misperception of reality. Allowing people who have no really serious problems ( such as a terminal illness ) to comitt suicide is tatamount to murder, or at least manslaughter. There are far too few laws against inaction as opposed to illegal action. I would love to see a law compelling intervention when the circumstances demanded it, perhaps a "failure to act" law.

So you would take a family in mourning and throw them in jail for failing to prevent the suicide? That's barbarous.

In a sense, yeah, that's pretty much it...

Why that is true is a case for another topic (unless you guys really want to get into it here), but to sum it up, homosexuality is not a choice...

Just wanted to know if your view was consistant :P

Yes, suicide is cowardly. It is the action taken on the part of the individual to ESCAPE a situation deemed unconfrontable. However, the fact that there is a majority in this vote who feel otherwise indicates that we are not a society that values facing up and toughing out your problems. That also means that this society does not value persistence and the concept of making things go right and persisting until they do. We need to markedly raise our standards, because our standards are too low. An individual is responsible for his/her own condition, which means there is ALWAYS something that can be done to improve the situation. ALWAYS.
Again, It's easy for you to say. You're not sick.

i would say that cowardice has nothing to do with it at all. i would say, and this is not from an inexperienced view, that suicide is done - done, mind you, not attempted, when the person has not a care in the world. nothing matters anymore accept escape, but it's odd because even though it's about escape, it's there's no fear in it. it feels like the only option. cowardice isn't even an issue.

Nihilism is the act of cutting oneself loose from reason. Another way of looking at that is that they are mad. After all, they have given up all logic and reason.

You say that being an "accident" means we don't matter... But exactly how does being "created" mean we matter?

I see no purpose on your side of the fence, either...

But regardless, life doesn't have to have some higher meaning in order to be meaningful... It is as meaningful as you feel it to be in your own mind...

I personally accept that in the grand scheme of the universe and reality, I'm only here because we got lucky, and that I'm not really that important...

But who cares about the big picture? The only scope you need to think about is that of your own little bubble...

And I happen to like my little bubble, regardless of how insignificant it may be to the rest of reality...

That's right. I'm not sick, and there is a reason I'm not. It has to do with toughness. Let's just all stop feeling sorry four ourselves, okay? It's nauseating.

I'm for the euthenasia style of suicide... But only in a case where getting better is not possible, and life really is no longer worth living (as in, your mind was going to deteriorate to the point of being a vegetable, or you had to live in incredible physical pain, or whatnot)

Eh? That's exactly what euthanasia is about.

And I think it's fine. Sometimes the dying patient has to suffer more because his relatives won't let him go. The relatives are being selfish, not the patient.

Yes, suicide is cowardly. It is the action taken on the part of the individual to ESCAPE a situation deemed unconfrontable. However, the fact that there is a majority in this vote who feel otherwise indicates that we are not a society that values facing up and toughing out your problems. That also means that this society does not value persistence and the concept of making things go right and persisting until they do. We need to markedly raise our standards, because our standards are too low. An individual is responsible for his/her own condition, which means there is ALWAYS something that can be done to improve the situation. ALWAYS.
The problem is that these people just don't have the strenght to fix their problems. Else they wouldn't have killed themselves. Trust me, no one really wants to die. And if you think the strenght required for this is about the same as it took you to get over that time when your boyfriend dumped you, you're dead wrong.

Your point of view is cruel, short-sighted, and, yes, unqualified. Many people think about suicide occasionally.

Have you ever attempted it? Struggled with it? Torn yourself back from the brink?

I thought not.

(OMITTED TO SAVE SPACE)

Depression is not a disease for "wussies," and people who overcome serious suicidal considerations and deep depression either were strong people, or forced themselves to become strong in order to fight. Either way, you wouldn't be belittling others' accomplishments if you had really gone through it yourself.

Cruelty is in the bleeding heart; short-sightedness is not applicable, as my views are based entirely on the fact that nothing matters in the long run; and I am as unqualified as I am fluorescent.

For as long as I can remember, I have lived for the sole purpose of an honorable death, because nothing matters in the end. I have (still do), in fact thought long and hard about suicide, and I consistently refuse to lower myself to such a level. Kill myself? If for a reason besides to end pain or to prove a point, I would do it in a heartbeat. This heartbeat would not occur while in cardiac arrest or cryogenic stasis.

if you're depressed or have serious problems mentally - meh... i dunno. i don't have a very high opinion of mentally ill people anyway... it scares me i guess. if they're functioning members of society, my opinion is maybe they should consider it more deeply than those who have never had anything to live for and cannot even involve themselves to do anything worth while (it would be more like euthanasia than just suicide, i suppose)

Don't have a very high opinion? Is there something wrong with someone for having a disease? Does it make them less of a person somehow? Keep in mind that most common mental illnessess (depression, bipolar, autism and so on) can be, if not cured, effectively treated. Many people with lifelong depression, bipolar, ADD, or other mental illnesses have managed to have successful lives nonetheless. I have depression, Hyperfocusing ADHD, Nonverbal Learning Disability - and yet I get all As in school, am an engaging and intelligent person, and have published poetry and short stories in a nationally distributed literary magazine. My father has struggled with depression, and he's a successful writer and professional speaker. My mother's sweetheart has had lifelong depression, and headed a team at Chevron-Texaco that made a major breakthrough in computer modeling of applied computational fluid dynamics. Please, think before you type.

That's right. I'm not sick, and there is a reason I'm not. It has to do with toughness. Let's just all stop feeling sorry four ourselves, okay? It's nauseating.
This has to be a troll.

If not. Try to learn something about mental illnesses.

and grow up.

You say that being an "accident" means we don't matter... But exactly how does being "created" mean we matter?

I see no purpose on your side of the fence, either...

But regardless, life doesn't have to have some higher meaning in order to be meaningful... It is as meaningful as you feel it to be in your own mind...

I personally accept that in the grand scheme of the universe and reality, I'm only here because we got lucky, and that I'm not really that important...

But who cares about the big picture? The only scope you need to think about is that of your own little bubble...

And I happen to like my little bubble, regardless of how insignificant it may be to the rest of reality...

Some day you may find that someone has popped your bubble and you'll see the big picture and it won't be something you won't like and you won't be able to return your bubble because its gone.

Suicide isn't so much cowardly as it is selfish

me, me, me, my problems, my agony, my life sucks, i can't see past my own problems, i'm gonna kill myself... i'm selfish

Cruelty is in the bleeding heart; short-sightedness is not applicable, as my views are based entirely on the fact that nothing matters in the long run; and I am as unqualified as I am fluorescent.

For as long as I can remember, I have lived for the sole purpose of an honorable death, because nothing matters in the end. I have (still do), in fact thought long and hard about suicide, and I consistently refuse to lower myself to such a level. Kill myself? If for a reason besides to end pain or to prove a point, I would do it in a heartbeat.

The "bleeding heart" is another way to say the human emotion of empathy. Obviously, you have none. Whether or not any given thing "matters" is no more and no less than a personal value judgement - one man's trash is another's treasure, and what matters deeply to me, you may not even notice.

Instead of raving on about honor, perhaps you ought to do the truly honorable thing, for which you will be fondly remembered, and seek treatment. No one will look down on you for seeking to better yourself.

Suicide isn't so much cowardly as it is selfish

me, me, me, my problems, my agony, my life sucks, i can't see past my own problems, i'm gonna kill myself... i'm selfish

Yes, you are awfully selfish not to think about the problems a suicidal person is going through, and the amount of strength it takes to do anything other than wither in apathy and self-hate.

This has to be a troll.

If not. Try to learn something about mental illnesses.

and grow up.

mod terus in atta amen.

(don't try to translate this from Latin - it's High Gothic.)

That's right. I'm not sick, and there is a reason I'm not. It has to do with toughness. Let's just all stop feeling sorry four ourselves, okay? It's nauseating.

Oh my god...

You do not know what the fuck you are talking about... holy shit... that was a joke right? Your sirius... toughness? You think... that people... can just 'though it up' and make it all better again without even thinking about it and getting help?

Wowingly awwed,
Holy totally fucked...
P.S. Alamanto is jassand's puppot.

That's the problem, Helioterra: mental illness. The mental health profession drugs people, tells them they are the product of their environment and not responsible for their condition. No wonder they commit suicide. It's a falsehood that's puts them in the direction of losing. They don't need to lose any more than they already have. I blame the mental health field. I used to be an insurance fraud investigator, and trust me, there is more insurance claim fraud in the pseudo-science field of mental health than any other. They should be helping people. Instead they harm them. Whether you know this or not, or care not to face it, there is a direct correlation between rising stats in violence (including suicide) and the increase in implementation of mental health programs.

Eh? That's exactly what euthanasia is about.

Well, I clarified that because I think "euthanasia" can be classified as "helping someone to die to end suffering" or in short, "mercy killing"... Which would mean any suffering, physical, incurable suffering, or mental, depressive suffering...

I guess basing things on the dictionary definition, the word does apply only to terminal or debilitating illnesses, but in case anyone wanted to stretch that definition to include mental illness as a qualified condition, I wanted to put a preemptive strike against it...lol

I just wanted to highlight the fact that I only mean that it's alright for cases of actual, physical problems...

To all of you who think suicide is a selfish act. You really think they want to be that sick? Just to annoy you?

You people obviously don't know anything about serious depression. They can't think about anything else than their misery. It's not like they don't want to but they just can't. They may realise that their depression is causing problems to people around them but that just makes them even more depressed.

Thank you. I'm so very very sick of people with no understanding of the effects of depression discussing suicide.

The only people who should have opinions are those who have considered it, and those who have lost friends or family to it.

No one else knows what they're talking about.

Yes, you are awfully selfish not to think about the problems a suicidal person is going through, and the amount of strength it takes to do anything other than wither in apathy and self-hate.

wow, you completely turned that around on me, but you completely missed the point as well

a Suicidal person stops caring about what his/her friends and family think, they stop caring if anything matters

i had a suicidal friend when i was about 14, he took a knife to his wrists and within 3 months both his younger siblings followed suit, his parents are now "happily" living in a mental rehabilitation facility all thanks to that one incident

As somebody who has (though I don't like to talk about it much), been extremely close to suicide twice in my life. I would say it is extremely cowardly.

As somebody who has (though I don't like to talk about it much), been extremely close to suicide twice in my life. I would say it is extremely cowardly.
It... is... not... Cowardly.

Well, I clarified that because I think "euthanasia" can be classified as "helping someone to die to end suffering" or in short, "mercy killing"... Which would mean any suffering, physical, incurable suffering, or mental, depressive suffering...

I guess basing things on the dictionary definition, the word does apply only to terminal or debilitating illnesses, but in case anyone wanted to stretch that definition to include mental illness as a qualified condition, I wanted to put a preemptive strike against it...lol

I just wanted to highlight the fact that I only mean that it's alright for cases of actual, physical problems...
Alright. I wasn't sure if you knew about it. Obviously you do. Sorry.
and I agree. Certainly no euthanasia for mental suffering.

its not a way out, its not the way to go, its not something that causes happyness for anyone, it doesn't show that you have the courage to go on...

how could it be anything other than Cowardly and Selfish?

Well, I clarified that because I think "euthanasia" can be classified as "helping someone to die to end suffering" or in short, "mercy killing"... Which would mean any suffering, physical, incurable suffering, or mental, depressive suffering...

I guess basing things on the dictionary definition, the word does apply only to terminal or debilitating illnesses, but in case anyone wanted to stretch that definition to include mental illness as a qualified condition, I wanted to put a preemptive strike against it...lol

I just wanted to highlight the fact that I only mean that it's alright for cases of actual, physical problems...

Depression IS a physical problem.

<cue being pissed off>

Clinical depression is often due to hormonal inbalances. Ie, it's PHYSICAL. Caused by the body, not rational, not controllable by the mind.

</pissed off>

I should also point out that I totally, totally think that treatment is ALWAYS better than suicide. I'm by no means saying that suicide is a good thing, or encouraging it, or trying to say that people don't suffer through others committing it. I'm just saying that people should not be applying labels to people's actions when those same people are NOT thinking rationally. People, this is why 'insanity' is a legal plea option. You can't judge people on actions committed while they aren't in control of their mental faculties.

hell no, suicide isn't selfish or cowardly.

people say it's cowardly because they "can't take the pain". do you know how much pain some people have to deal with? do you know what this pain feels like? let me tell you, when every minute of your life you are so emotionally wrecked inside and want to die, you couldn't "take the pain" either. it takes tons of guts to go through with suicide. I'm not supporting suicide by any means, not at all, but it isn't as easy as you think to "fix your problems and get all better" with a serious mental disorder. your point of view is changed because of the disorder. sometimes you can't get past that mental disorder down into your will to live. fortunately, whilst overdosing my will surfaced from the depths of my mind, and I survived. oh, and by the way, dying isn't easy at all...your mind goes through terrible things deciding what to do, especially if you don't have a shotgun for a quicker decision.

it's not cowardly because you are initiating your own death instead of waiting for it. most people fear death. yeah, life can be hard, but when you have a mental disorder, it's not just "having a bad day boohoo I'll die". living life is being strong, and people cannot be as strong to live life when suffering from a debilitating mental disease.

selfish? your inner pain can be incredible. I know it is terrible for people around you - I would never defy that. again, they are suffering from a disease and sometimes their pain is so great, thinking about only people is tough. and when you do, you think about how they'd be better off without you and such. the pain you can go through can also make you think, "if they knew I felt this terrible, they would let me die" (but in reality, it would be a call for treatment).

suicide is a terrible thing, but neither is it cowardly or selfish. I don't mean to degrade suicidal people because they are suffering from a disease at all (it sounds a little like that, I think) but people cannot even be wholly accountable for their actions when suffering like this. that's why people get off at trials sometimes - insanity. suicidal people are almost always severely depressed people who have a reached a point no one should reach and feel that life is torture.

In most cases, I would say it isn't. There are those times people kill themselves because they got dumped by a girl/boyfriend and they feel hurt inside or if you've seen the Movie "The Dead Poet's Society", when the main character commits suicide, it is not for a legitimate reason. But if you are in great pain or suffering, then it is not cowardly.
That is exactly why it is cowardly, bravery would be to carry on and make the best of it.
But as the abopve post states if the person has amental disorder they are not a coward, neither are they brave as they no longer sit within normal parameters.

Instead of raving on about honor, perhaps you ought to do the truly honorable thing, for which you will be fondly remembered, and seek treatment. No one will look down on you for seeking to better yourself.

I didn't seek treatment, treatment sought me against my wishes and to no avail. In general (not just me), if one feels such that treatment would be, (in most people's view) necessary, he knows that "treatment" will consist entirely of feel-good warm-fuzzy crap and people telling him not to kill himself. Naturally, if he seriously is considering suicide, he in all likelyhood discounts it immediately (the part of human nature known as stubbornness, which obviously fuels our conversation) and continues contemplating self-inflicted death.

As for seeking to better myself... there is no way to better that which is inherently perfect in every way. I kid, I kid.

a Suicidal person stops caring about what his/her friends and family think, they stop caring if anything matters

and that is a heartbreaking story and I can see where you would draw that conclusion. if only that suicidal person had been able to get help, but it seems his disease was so great he felt it was the only way out. it's terrible, isn't it? :(

wow, you completely turned that around on me, but you completely missed the point as well

a Suicidal person stops caring about what his/her friends and family think, they stop caring if anything matters

i had a suicidal friend when i was about 14, he took a knife to his wrists and within 3 months both his younger siblings followed suit, his parents are now "happily" living in a mental rehabilitation facility all thanks to that one incident

It's not so much that they 'stop caring' about people.

They rationalise. I know that when I'm suicidal, I'm convinced that my family and friends would be better off without me. Hence, in a very warped way, I convince myself that it's *because* I care about them that suicide is a valid option.

That's the problem, Helioterra: mental illness. The mental health profession drugs people, tells them they are the product of their environment and not responsible for their condition. No wonder they commit suicide. It's a falsehood that's puts them in the direction of losing. They don't need to lose any more than they already have. I blame the mental health field. I used to be an insurance fraud investigator, and trust me, there is more insurance claim fraud in the pseudo-science field of mental health than any other. They should be helping people. Instead they harm them. Whether you know this or not, or care not to face it, there is a direct correlation between rising stats in violence (including suicide) and the increase in implementation of mental health programs.

It was a mental health program which first prescribed me antidepressants, yes -
without which, I'd probably have killed myself by now.

It was a mental health program which first diagnosed my ADD and NVLD -
without which, I would have dropped out of school.

It was a mental health program that prevented me from killing myself when I was planning to drink toxic chemicals.

Now, I'm a healthy, fairly happy A student, not robbed of my individuality or creativity by the drugs and therapy. Saved by them.
Say what you will

That is exactly why it is cowardly, bravery would be to carry on and make the best of it.
But as the abopve post states if the person has amental disorder they are not a coward, neither are they brave as they no longer sit within normal parameters.
bitch...

When suicide is part of a suicide mission, like holding a rearguard so others can escape or giving your life to blow up a bridge or an enemy checkpoint or something like that, or even when desperations forces things to the point where the only attack a people can make is in the form a suicide mission against soft enemy targets (in the hope of dissuading future aggression) - it is an honorable and courageous thing.


Also, suicide as a response to disgrace is an honorable thing, like a corrupt politican or businessman shooting himself when his crimes are made public.

In fact, anyone who *doesnt* do that is a base fellow and scum in my opinion.

oh, and the mental health industry? I suppose it isn't as much as their fault as the drug company coverups which caused the antidepressants to help for a while, then start taking the opposite effect. that kind of pisses me off. just a little. --; but now, I'm on antidepressants that work, and off of them...man.

It was a mental health program which first prescribed me antidepressants, yes -
without which, I'd probably have killed myself by now.

It was a mental health program which first diagnosed my ADD and NVLD -
without which, I would have dropped out of school.

It was a mental health program that prevented me from killing myself when I was planning to drink toxic chemicals.

Now, I'm a healthy, fairly happy A student, not robbed of my individuality or creativity by the drugs and therapy. Saved by them.
Say what you will

Although I believe that drugs (legal) are overused a lot/most of the time, I love to hear it when our own technologie can help somone like you so much. I am really glad to here about how things worked out for you.

bitch...
Whey hey!
Thanks.
Great to get into the really weighty arguments.

Cowardly??? None of you has the balls to put a gun against your temple (unfortunately for some of you). I don't care if you look down on suicide, but to call it cowardly is proposterous! I used to think that a coward was defined as a person doing anything they can to stay alive, even if it meant doing the most humiliating things. Many who said it was cowardly were raised to think that and have probably never even had someone close to them commit suicide. I myself am a coward as I'll do anything it takes to stay alive. People who kill themselves for unworthy causes (such as a guys girlfriend broke up with him) can be called stupid, but they CAN NOT be called cowards, just because you lack better words to insult them. Many of you who said it was cowardly wouldn't kill yourselves to cure all world suffering. That's cowardly.
I can't believe that this is even an argument. Well, that was my two-cents!

hell no, suicide isn't selfish or cowardly.

people say it's cowardly because they "can't take the pain". do you know how much pain some people have to deal with? do you know what this pain feels like? let me tell you, when every minute of your life you are so emotionally wrecked inside and want to die, you couldn't "take the pain" either. it takes tons of guts to go through with suicide. I'm not supporting suicide by any means, not at all, but it isn't as easy as you think to "fix your problems and get all better" with a serious mental disorder. your point of view is changed because of the disorder. sometimes you can't get past that mental disorder down into your will to live. fortunately, whilst overdosing my will surfaced from the depths of my mind, and I survived. oh, and by the way, dying isn't easy at all...your mind goes through terrible things deciding what to do, especially if you don't have a shotgun for a quicker decision.

it's not cowardly because you are initiating your own death instead of waiting for it. most people fear death. yeah, life can be hard, but when you have a mental disorder, it's not just "having a bad day boohoo I'll die". living life is being strong, and people cannot be as strong to live life when suffering from a debilitating mental disease.

selfish? your inner pain can be incredible. I know it is terrible for people around you - I would never defy that. again, they are suffering from a disease and sometimes their pain is so great, thinking about only people is tough. and when you do, you think about how they'd be better off without you and such. the pain you can go through can also make you think, "if they knew I felt this terrible, they would let me die" (but in reality, it would be a call for treatment).

suicide is a terrible thing, but neither is it cowardly or selfish. I don't mean to degrade suicidal people because they are suffering from a disease at all (it sounds a little like that, I think) but people cannot even be wholly accountable for their actions when suffering like this. that's why people get off at trials sometimes - insanity. suicidal people are almost always severely depressed people who have a reached a point no one should reach and feel that life is torture.


you know what, i didn'd want to say this in my last post, but after that friend of mine killed himself, i was Suicidal, i couldn't go on, i didn't want to go on, waking up was just a reason to kill myself, i went through it everyday, hell, i had to hide most sharp things from myself, i struggled through it, i felt it everyday, hell, but i never left a single scar on my arm, thats just a cry for attention and the last thing i wanted was attention. i suffered for almost a year. that pain your talking about... I LIVED IT!

you know what kept me alive? sheer willpower, the all-at-once realising thought that whatever happens today will be different tomorrow, i pushed the pain aside and LIVED with it.

you know how it feels to hold your breath underwater, and your almost overcome with curiousity as to what would happen if you breathed in before surfacing? i almost did that
you know how a hangman's noose feels around your neck? i do
don't tell me what a suicidal person goes through, i've been there

and i maintained the courage to go on, every day, i waited for life to change, and it finally did

Final words on this subject:

http://www.cchr.org

Get informed. Goodnight and good luck to all of you.

I didn't seek treatment, treatment sought me against my wishes and to no avail. In general (not just me), if one feels such that treatment would be, (in most people's view) necessary, he knows that "treatment" will consist entirely of feel-good warm-fuzzy crap and people telling him not to kill himself. Naturally, if he seriously is considering suicide, he in all likelyhood discounts it immediately (the part of human nature known as stubbornness, which obviously fuels our conversation) and continues contemplating self-inflicted death.

As for seeking to better myself... there is no way to better that which is inherently perfect in every way. I kid, I kid.

It didn't work, this treatment, because you didn't want it to.

"Warm, fuzzy crap?" They're doing the best they know how. What, would you rather they sic you with leeches?
And yes, it works, if you want it to. The essential, bottom-line technique in therapy is to provide someone with a healthy friend, someone who will listen. I know it feels inauthentic, but it's not like they can just scan government databases and find someone with the exact psychological profile to be your best friend for life, pay them thousands to ride a jet over ASAP, and then speed up the process via impromptu, temporary genetic modification so that you're best friends within three hours.

Goodnight ;) ttyl everyone, nice talking. :fluffle:

Drugopia:
Story of my life, just without the whole friend bit.

/leaving myself WIDE open for an insult here

Suicide is indeed cowardly, and I also am qualified to speak on this subject. One commits suicide because he (I'll use "he" because it's shorter than "she") does not want to face pain. He feels that the pain of a premature death is less than that of living. So the coward stops all the pain he would ever feel from ever being felt, rather than facing the onslaught with honor. Whenever suicidal thoughts enter my head, I simply remind myself that there are better ways to die. If one doesn't want to continue living, he should cease doing so in a manner becoming of an honorable man, make productive his disregard of his own life, and do so bravely. He who commits suicide will be remembered as the one who "just couldn't take it," whereas he who dies valiantly will be remembered as the one who did just that.

On a lighter note, unsolicited counseling should not be provided to those who are suicidal. After all, suicide is just nature's way of removing those who are too weak to live from the gene pool.

In conclusion - delenda Carthago est.

So... how exactly are you qualified to tell me why I do things? Have you any experience with the particular form of depression I have? Have you factored in my age, to account for hormonal issues? Have you analysed my life, to account for environmental and emtional factors?

No?

Then, seriously, shut the hell up, because I don't appreciate you claiming to be 'qualified' to tell me what I think and feel.

Final words on this subject:

http://www.cchr.org

Get informed. Goodnight and good luck to all of you.

The CCHR is an organization of uninformed, stubborn, pseudo-science-supported angry parents, looking for someone to blame for their child's inability to cope with whatever unusual challenge they were given. There is no such thing as a perfect medical system, and the psychiatric equivalent of creationism won't make things any better. Good night, and go eat some chocolate, it'll make you smarter, you sanctimonious, hedgehog-petting dolt.
I kid, I kid.

you know what, i didn'd want to say this in my last post, but after that friend of mine killed himself, i was Suicidal, i couldn't go on, i didn't want to go on, waking up was just a reason to kill myself, i went through it everyday, hell, i had to hide most sharp things from myself, i struggled through it, i felt it everyday, hell, but i never left a single scar on my arm, thats just a cry for attention and the last thing i wanted was attention. i suffered for almost a year. that pain your talking about... I LIVED IT!

you know what kept me alive? sheer willpower, the all-at-once realising thought that whatever happens today will be different tomorrow, i pushed the pain aside and LIVED with it.

you know how it feels to hold your breath underwater, and your almost overcome with curiousity as to what would happen if you breathed in before surfacing? i almost did that
you know how a hangman's noose feels around your neck? i do
don't tell me what a suicidal person goes through, i've been there

and i maintained the courage to go on, every day, i waited for life to change, and it finally did


I know where you're coming from, I've been there too.

I believe that most that use suicide as a way out, are not afraid of life, but basically tire of it... Some find that there seems to be no reason for their life, and are unwilling to try any longer... Some are just tired of all the BS that seems to happen to them... I don't really think it could ever be considered cowardly, especially if the accuser actually knows what it is like to be suicidal...

and i maintained the courage to go on, every day, i waited for life to change, and it finally did

that is excellent for you. however, many people give up on waiting for things to change. and can you really blame them? a year of that shit happening to you. that's terrible. I'm not saying your pain is less than theirs or greater - maybe it's not necessarily cowardice but emotional pain tolerance. I was looking at it more like "I've been depressed for four years and wanted to kill myself for three; I've been waiting for things to get better and they haven't; why should I live when every second of every day I want to break down sobbing because I can't take it anymore. it has consumed me."

a lot of people's willpower is overcome by their disease. but it was willpower that saved me, yes.

Whey hey!
Thanks.
Great to get into the really weighty arguments.

While I wouldn't have put it quite a crudely as Jassand, I have to say that I agreee with the general gist of their argument. :mad:

It didn't work, this treatment, because you didn't want it to.

"Warm, fuzzy crap?" They're doing the best they know how. What, would you rather they sic you with leeches?
And yes, it works, if you want it to. The essential, bottom-line technique in therapy is to provide someone with a healthy friend, someone who will listen. I know it feels inauthentic, but it's not like they can just scan government databases and find someone with the exact psychological profile to be your best friend for life, pay them thousands to ride a jet over ASAP, and then speed up the process via impromptu, temporary genetic modification so that you're best friends within three hours.

Much of my point was that, if one is in such a situation, he would not want it to work as it is human nature to be stubborn.

As for the other stuff, that friend was none other than he with whom that friend would be friends.
In case I royally screwed that up for the sake of being verbose, that'd be me.

So... how exactly are you qualified to tell me why I do things? Have you any experience with the particular form of depression I have? Have you factored in my age, to account for hormonal issues? Have you analysed my life, to account for environmental and emtional factors?

No?

Then, seriously, shut the hell up, because I don't appreciate you claiming to be 'qualified' to tell me what I think and feel.

agreed... You have to facter everything when condsidering these things... and it is not possible to 'konw' how somone is feeling etc. So he/she should just shut the fuck up (about that anyway) and ya... GOODNIGHT FOR REAL NOW

The CCHR is an organization of uninformed, stubborn, pseudo-science-supported angry parents, looking for someone to blame for their child's inability to cope with whatever unusual challenge they were given. There is no such thing as a perfect medical system, and the psychiatric equivalent of creationism won't make things any better. Good night, and go eat some chocolate, it'll make you smarter, you sanctimonious, hedgehog-petting dolt.
I kid, I kid.

and someone turned on parental control on my norton internet security and blocked it for "sex/acts". hee

wow, you completely turned that around on me, but you completely missed the point as well

a Suicidal person stops caring about what his/her friends and family think, they stop caring if anything matters

i had a suicidal friend when i was about 14, he took a knife to his wrists and within 3 months both his younger siblings followed suit, his parents are now "happily" living in a mental rehabilitation facility all thanks to that one incident

I have a hard time believing that an entire healthy family could fall due to one suicide. It's likely that there was serious difficulty within the family - domestic strife of some kind, drug abuse, or simply disfunction. No offense to your friend or his family, but this seems the only likely cause.

Depression IS a physical problem.

<cue being pissed off>

Clinical depression is often due to hormonal inbalances. Ie, it's PHYSICAL. Caused by the body, not rational, not controllable by the mind.

</pissed off>

I should also point out that I totally, totally think that treatment is ALWAYS better than suicide. I'm by no means saying that suicide is a good thing, or encouraging it, or trying to say that people don't suffer through others committing it. I'm just saying that people should not be applying labels to people's actions when those same people are NOT thinking rationally. People, this is why 'insanity' is a legal plea option. You can't judge people on actions committed while they aren't in control of their mental faculties.

Clinical depression is *always* due to chemical interruptions or imbalances. That's what makes it "clinical" instead of circumstantial.

oh, and the mental health industry? I suppose it isn't as much as their fault as the drug company coverups which caused the antidepressants to help for a while, then start taking the opposite effect. that kind of pisses me off. just a little. --; but now, I'm on antidepressants that work, and off of them...man.

I know Zoloft has a warning on it that it actually causes a few weeks of even *worse* depression before it starts working.

Personally, I refuse to go on antidepressants of any sort until I'm out of my teens, because I don't trust anything around considering my hormones. I also can't get therapy in any convienient manner, since most of my issues are trust-based.

And then I get people telling me I'm a coward, as well as being selfish. I'm always amazed that people who claim to hate emos go out of their way to encourage people to feel like shit...

It... is... not... Cowardly.

Once again I agree with you, but do try to be a little less argumentative and more articulate, will you?

Clinical depression is *always* due to chemical interruptions or imbalances. That's what makes it "clinical" instead of circumstantial.

I thought as much, but didn't want to make any outlandish claims since I wasn't sure if there were some examples I hadn't heard of.

I know some aren't rooted in hormones, but it's the hormones that cause the actual depression, with something else being the cause of the hormonal imbalance... I wasn't sure if they counted.

I have a hard time believing that an entire healthy family could fall due to one suicide. It's likely that there was serious difficulty within the family - domestic strife of some kind, drug abuse, or simply disfunction. No offense to your friend or his family, but this seems the only likely cause.

no, they where actually quite a happy family normally, but out of nowhere my friend killed himself, i still don't know why. but i know his younger siblings followed in his footsteps no matter what he did.

you know what? fuck it, i'm neither in the mood to discuss this, or bring up memories like this, not at 2AM, not when i have to be up in 4 hours

Although I believe that drugs (legal) are overused a lot/most of the time, I love to hear it when our own technologie can help somone like you so much. I am really glad to here about how things worked out for you.

Yeah. It's not like pills aren't abused - of course they are. All drugs are abused to some extent, even aspirin. Hell, I could go on a three-page rant about the sugar abuse so prevalent in Western society. However, a certain amount of dramatic failures are the price paid for a good may cases of resounding success.

I have a hard time believing that an entire healthy family could fall due to one suicide. It's likely that there was serious difficulty within the family - domestic strife of some kind, drug abuse, or simply disfunction. No offense to your friend or his family, but this seems the only likely cause.

I'd have to (yet again) disagree. Although I agree about the likelihood of the family problem thing, it seems that it would also be likely that the younger siblings, having been suddenly deprived of a loved one and mentor who is as close to omnipresent in their lives as anyone, would become extremely depressed themselves and possibly follow "big brother's/sister's" example.

I think that people who want to commit suicide should get help, absolutely. They need help from someone who can shake them out of their selfishness. If you're thinking of doing something like that, you are only thinking of yourself. You're not thinking about the people who care about you, or the person who finds your body, or the people who have to clean up after you. You're just stuck in this loop of "poor me".

To quote Anon, it's a permenent solution to a temporary problem.

OK I have to answer this one. I do suffer from depression, but unfortunately for me, *not all the time*, so it's just about impossible to medicate. Most of the time I'm fine, but there doesn't seem to be any way to predict when it will happen. It comes on over a few days, hangs around for a few weeks at most, and then goes. I was talking to a coworker about why he'd been off sick for a while and he said he'd 'failed a sanity check'. This is pretty much what happens to me. It's fairly obvious for those around me when this happens, but only if they've seen it before.
I become convinced that I'm bad at my job - and as being depressed can make getting anything done just about impossible, this will tend to be true at these times. Half the time I can manage to screw up making a cup of tea, so attempting complex, specialised IT work, I just make mistakes and everything breaks. I don't believe people when they tell me it's not true, because after all, I'm *proving* with everything I do that they're wrong. I believe that my friends are just putting up with me to be polite, and that nothing I can do about my situation will change anything, because I'm just not good enough at anything to change it. Whatever I do won't be enough, or, as with my job, I'll make matters worse. I can't see any way to change anything anyway - except one.
There is, of course, an element of how much I'm hurting at these times, but it's by no means all of it. Mostly I'm feeling bad for inflicting myself on people. Thankfully I tend to make fairly long-term plans. I do not wish to hurt those around me, which is why I'm still here. I start annoying people so they'll feel more justified in having nothing to do with me. I can't see why they'd want to put up with my whining anyway, so I'm nasty to them so they don't need to feel obliged to be nice to me. I think about ways to alienate *everyone* I know, finish whatever's project's going on at work and then go and kill myself in a way that means I don't traumatise some poor train driver/policeman/person walking a dog/cleaner. I don't ever tell people what I'm planning, because I think that would make them feel obliged to try to stop me - and because most of these people are a long way away, coming to see me would be a huge effort for them that I don't want them to have to make. Usually I have things I'm meant to have done for friends, and I go into overdrive to get those things done - but of course I make a mess of it all. Where usually I can make clothes easily, at these times, I can't manage to do simple repairs. Because doing all this takes some time, and my depression is only ever temporary, I only ever get part of the way through my plans. Getting things done for people tends to cheer them up, and it makes me feel slightly less useless having coped with doing it. People I've not seen for a while call out of the blue - it all starts to chip away at the depression to the point where I can *see* that I'm not thinking straight and drag myself back on track. So - am I being cowardly at those times, or just a bit nuts?

no, they where actually quite a happy family normally, but out of nowhere my friend killed himself, i still don't know why. but i know his younger siblings followed in his footsteps no matter what he did.

you know what? fuck it, i'm neither in the mood to discuss this, or bring up memories like this, not at 2AM, not when i have to be up in 4 hours

I'm sorry I provoked negative memories for you. My apologies.

So - am I being cowardly at those times, or just a bit nuts?

Nope, you're just normal.

And for the record, it is not being depressed or suicidal that is cowardly, but actually committing suicide.

OK I have to answer this one. I do suffer from depression, but unfortunately for me, *not all the time*, so it's just about impossible to medicate. Most of the time I'm fine, but there doesn't seem to be any way to predict when it will happen. It comes on over a few days, hangs around for a few weeks at most, and then goes. I was talking to a coworker about why he'd been off sick for a while and he said he'd 'failed a sanity check'. This is pretty much what happens to me. It's fairly obvious for those around me when this happens, but only if they've seen it before.
I become convinced that I'm bad at my job - and as being depressed can make getting anything done just about impossible, this will tend to be true at these times. Half the time I can manage to screw up making a cup of tea, so attempting complex, specialised IT work, I just make mistakes and everything breaks. I don't believe people when they tell me it's not true, because after all, I'm *proving* with everything I do that they're wrong. I believe that my friends are just putting up with me to be polite, and that nothing I can do about my situation will change anything, because I'm just not good enough at anything to change it. Whatever I do won't be enough, or, as with my job, I'll make matters worse. I can't see any way to change anything anyway - except one.
There is, of course, an element of how much I'm hurting at these times, but it's by no means all of it. Mostly I'm feeling bad for inflicting myself on people. Thankfully I tend to make fairly long-term plans. I do not wish to hurt those around me, which is why I'm still here. I start annoying people so they'll feel more justified in having nothing to do with me. I can't see why they'd want to put up with my whining anyway, so I'm nasty to them so they don't need to feel obliged to be nice to me. I think about ways to alienate *everyone* I know, finish whatever's project's going on at work and then go and kill myself in a way that means I don't traumatise some poor train driver/policeman/person walking a dog/cleaner. I don't ever tell people what I'm planning, because I think that would make them feel obliged to try to stop me - and because most of these people are a long way away, coming to see me would be a huge effort for them that I don't want them to have to make. Usually I have things I'm meant to have done for friends, and I go into overdrive to get those things done - but of course I make a mess of it all. Where usually I can make clothes easily, at these times, I can't manage to do simple repairs. Because doing all this takes some time, and my depression is only ever temporary, I only ever get part of the way through my plans. Getting things done for people tends to cheer them up, and it makes me feel slightly less useless having coped with doing it. People I've not seen for a while call out of the blue - it all starts to chip away at the depression to the point where I can *see* that I'm not thinking straight and drag myself back on track. So - am I being cowardly at those times, or just a bit nuts?

That sounds like rapid-cycling type II bipolar disorder to me, not depression. There are also other disorders that cause severe mood swings, such as certain forms of autism and ADD, but they are less common.

Nope, you're just normal.

Finally, I agree with you. :D

and someone turned on parental control on my norton internet security and blocked it for "sex/acts". hee

:D Excellent.

Suicide is an attempt to thwart fate
A last-measure defense against the inevitable
To control the TIME and PLACE of a chaos
To put a THUMB in God's eye
as if to say,
"How's THAT fit into your grand scheme, you great gobshite?"

Do these sound like the actions of a coward?

Of course, non-cowardly actions, often known as "brave deeds", can also be misguided, poorly motivated, or even brainwashed into people. Just because suicide isn't "cowardly", doesn't make it necessarily "moral" either.

Goooooood night, everyone! :fluffle: s to those who want them, and :) s to those who don't. A few :headbang: s for those I was constantly at odds with, some :cool: s for the cool types, and :eek: at the state of our nation for the occasional lucid person to wander across my doorstep. ;)

I know Zoloft has a warning on it that it actually causes a few weeks of even *worse* depression before it starts working.



my father takes zoloft, it's the only kind of antidepressant that agrees with him.

however, when you give it to me at age ten, it works for a little while, then helps the triggering of suicidal thoughts. yaaay.

unfortunately, I can't not take antidepressants... well, I could, but I doubt I'd be in a good situation. right now I have some that are working so I am okay with being doped up vs. feeling awful.

OK I have to answer this one. I do suffer from depression, but unfortunately for me, *not all the time*, so it's just about impossible to medicate. Most of the time I'm fine, but there doesn't seem to be any way to predict when it will happen. It comes on over a few days, hangs around for a few weeks at most, and then goes. I was talking to a coworker about why he'd been off sick for a while and he said he'd 'failed a sanity check'. This is pretty much what happens to me. It's fairly obvious for those around me when this happens, but only if they've seen it before.
I become convinced that I'm bad at my job - and as being depressed can make getting anything done just about impossible, this will tend to be true at these times. Half the time I can manage to screw up making a cup of tea, so attempting complex, specialised IT work, I just make mistakes and everything breaks. I don't believe people when they tell me it's not true, because after all, I'm *proving* with everything I do that they're wrong. I believe that my friends are just putting up with me to be polite, and that nothing I can do about my situation will change anything, because I'm just not good enough at anything to change it. Whatever I do won't be enough, or, as with my job, I'll make matters worse. I can't see any way to change anything anyway - except one.
There is, of course, an element of how much I'm hurting at these times, but it's by no means all of it. Mostly I'm feeling bad for inflicting myself on people. Thankfully I tend to make fairly long-term plans. I do not wish to hurt those around me, which is why I'm still here. I start annoying people so they'll feel more justified in having nothing to do with me. I can't see why they'd want to put up with my whining anyway, so I'm nasty to them so they don't need to feel obliged to be nice to me. I think about ways to alienate *everyone* I know, finish whatever's project's going on at work and then go and kill myself in a way that means I don't traumatise some poor train driver/policeman/person walking a dog/cleaner. I don't ever tell people what I'm planning, because I think that would make them feel obliged to try to stop me - and because most of these people are a long way away, coming to see me would be a huge effort for them that I don't want them to have to make. Usually I have things I'm meant to have done for friends, and I go into overdrive to get those things done - but of course I make a mess of it all. Where usually I can make clothes easily, at these times, I can't manage to do simple repairs. Because doing all this takes some time, and my depression is only ever temporary, I only ever get part of the way through my plans. Getting things done for people tends to cheer them up, and it makes me feel slightly less useless having coped with doing it. People I've not seen for a while call out of the blue - it all starts to chip away at the depression to the point where I can *see* that I'm not thinking straight and drag myself back on track. So - am I being cowardly at those times, or just a bit nuts?

Neither. And your case seems remarkably similar to mine. I'm sorry you have to deal with it as well.

Suicide is an attempt to thwart fate
A last-measure defense against the inevitable
To control the TIME and PLACE of a chaos
To put a THUMB in God's eye
as if to say,
"How's THAT fit into your grand scheme, you great gobshite?"

Do these sound like the actions of a coward?

The fundies will tell you that "the great gobshite" intended all along for our protagonist to commit suicide in the exact time, place, and manner as he did.

I would say suicide is more selfish than cowardly. Unless your seriously ill.


Commiting suicide is a serious illness. Depression. I haven't read past the first pages so I'm not sure how this thread has turned out. All I know is that I'm impressed with how its started.

Failed Generals A.O.K
Kamikazes A.O.K
actually hmmmmm Failures A.O.K
the Unloved A.O.K
Political Statements Boo
Guilt Trips Boo

Pretty much sums it up for me

The fundies will tell you that "the great gobshite" intended all along for our protagonist to commit suicide in the exact time, place, and manner as he did.

Well, if you accept that, then you also have to accept that child molestors, serial killers, and telemarketers are also part of the Grand Scheme. I just can't imagine blaming The Great Gobshite for a creature's tendency to self-terminate.

I'm very confused about something now... I've seen quite a few cases in this thread of "cyclical" depression... Where you're depressed sometimes, but not others... And in at least one case, the person is depressed to suicidal levels on each downturn...

And, I also know of manic-depression, where there's nothing but an emotional "roller coaster"...

And I just don't understand it...

I mean, if you're alright sometimes, do you just lose your memory when you become depressed again? Do you just automatically forget that life really was alright after each low?

I just don't see how someone could "beat" something once, but then fall back into it again, and seemingly not remember that it could be beaten...

Once you're armed with the knowledge of a better world, how can you lose it? Especially if it happens to you often? At a certain point, my mind would be forcing itself to realize that it has gotten better, and so it will again...

In fact, I imagine that this reaction would become so strong, that I'd ignore the depression after a while, and pass it off as a "phase"... Sure, suffer through it, but "heck, it's come and gone before, and life was just fine afterwards, so why bother to worry about it this time?"

From my standpoint, the mind controls the body, not the other way around... I don't care what signals you're receiving, or what substances your body is pumping into you, your mind is virtually untouchable, as long as you've got the willpower to make it so...

Well then, perhaps those that are susceptible to depression and the like just aren't very strong mentally to begin with (not in terms of intelligence, mind you, but just in sheer power of "mind over matter")...

I don't know... I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating the power of hormones over your thought processes, but I just don't see how a healthy mind (otherwise) could be overcome by them... Therefore, that mind must be unhealthy beforehand...

I don't mean to insult (even though I know that must've been very insulting), and I know that from the perspective of someone who has never had to deal with these sorts of things, I really don't have the authority to make assumptions or pass judgements, but this is just how it seems from my admittedly limited viewpoint...

I do apologize for trying to downplay what is possibly a serious condition, but I can't help it... It just doesn't seem to be that insurmountable from where I'm sitting...

Someone else certainly will know more about this but I just wanted to say that manic-depression can vary a lot. Actually it's quite common, but it's also usually quite "mild". I've known only one person with severe manic-depression and he was much more suicidal on manic-period (paranoia) than when depressed.

Maybe it's about medication. As already mentioned it's very hard to control with drugs and usually it takes time to find working drugs.

I'm very confused about something now... I've seen quite a few cases in this thread of "cyclical" depression... Where you're depressed sometimes, but not others... And in at least one case, the person is depressed to suicidal levels on each downturn...
*snip*
I mean, if you're alright sometimes, do you just lose your memory when you become depressed again? Do you just automatically forget that life really was alright after each low?

Pretty much. Last week I had someone talking to me about some stuff I'd done the previous year, got awads for and peer praise and all that good shit - and I just couldn't remember it. I can now. But when you're down, you're in an emotional black box. There's a door behind you, but you can't see it, cause you've got your back to it, and you can't seem to turn your head.

That sounds like rapid-cycling type II bipolar disorder to me, not depression. There are also other disorders that cause severe mood swings, such as certain forms of autism and ADD, but they are less common.

Great, yet more proof that my GP is an arsehole and that I shouldn't trust his opinions on anything. You can bet that next time I'm down I'll remember you said he was wrong, but not what you said it probably was...

I'm very confused about something now... I've seen quite a few cases in this thread of "cyclical" depression... Where you're depressed sometimes, but not others... And in at least one case, the person is depressed to suicidal levels on each downturn...

And, I also know of manic-depression, where there's nothing but an emotional "roller coaster"...

And I just don't understand it...

I mean, if you're alright sometimes, do you just lose your memory when you become depressed again? Do you just automatically forget that life really was alright after each low?

I just don't see how someone could "beat" something once, but then fall back into it again, and seemingly not remember that it could be beaten...

Once you're armed with the knowledge of a better world, how can you lose it? Especially if it happens to you often? At a certain point, my mind would be forcing itself to realize that it has gotten better, and so it will again...

In fact, I imagine that this reaction would become so strong, that I'd ignore the depression after a while, and pass it off as a "phase"... Sure, suffer through it, but "heck, it's come and gone before, and life was just fine afterwards, so why bother to worry about it this time?"

From my standpoint, the mind controls the body, not the other way around... I don't care what signals you're receiving, or what substances your body is pumping into you, your mind is virtually untouchable, as long as you've got the willpower to make it so...

Well then, perhaps those that are susceptible to depression and the like just aren't very strong mentally to begin with (not in terms of intelligence, mind you, but just in sheer power of "mind over matter")...

I don't know... I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating the power of hormones over your thought processes, but I just don't see how a healthy mind (otherwise) could be overcome by them... Therefore, that mind must be unhealthy beforehand...

I don't mean to insult (even though I know that must've been very insulting), and I know that from the perspective of someone who has never had to deal with these sorts of things, I really don't have the authority to make assumptions or pass judgements, but this is just how it seems from my admittedly limited viewpoint...

I do apologize for trying to downplay what is possibly a serious condition, but I can't help it... It just doesn't seem to be that insurmountable from where I'm sitting...


Which shows that you obviously know nothing about depression. People that are depressed do not have healthy minds, nobody ever said they did. Depression is basically a disease of the mind. Some forms come in mild, temporary fashions, and some come in insurmountable fashions. It's past your bedtime now, go to sleep.

Pretty much. Last week I had someone talking to me about some stuff I'd done the previous year, got awads for and peer praise and all that good shit - and I just couldn't remember it. I can now. But when you're down, you're in an emotional black box. There's a door behind you, but you can't see it, cause you've got your back to it, and you can't seem to turn your head.

Or you are too pissed, wrecked and depressed to give a hoot about it. Lack of chemicals in the brain can jade any sort of recollection you had of something good.

Which shows that you obviously know nothing about depression. It's past your bedtime, go to sleep.
He/she wants to know. That's why he/she's asking. You're certainly not helping anyone.

That depends. For example:

1. Sacrificing yourself, such as going into a situation knowing you'll die or killing yourself in order to to save another life or to serve the greater good, is not cowardly.

2. Taking yourself out because you can't handle the pressures of life is cowardly. Everybody has problems, and no matter how bad it gets, there is always someone that has it worse and is getting by and/or has been through it and gone on to seek a happy life. To kill yourself for that is pointless, and yes, it is the coward's way out.

Afpish, you should seriously put some thought into poetry, that was a beautiful analogy

Taking yourself out because you can't handle the pressures of life is cowardly. Everybody has problems, and no matter how bad it gets, there is always someone that has it worse and is getting by and/or has been through it and gone on to seek a happy life. To kill yourself for that is pointless, and yes, it is the coward's way out.

see, this is what I can't stand.

everybody has problems. not everyone has a severe mental disorder causing them excessive emotional pain.

Well, SSGX, you haven't insulted me, and I suffer from clinical depression. You don't understand; that's fine, if you haven't been there, how could you? At least you're bothering to ask about it rather than assuming you know it all, like some people on this board may have done :)
I mean, if you're alright sometimes, do you just lose your memory when you become depressed again? Do you just automatically forget that life really was alright after each low?

Once you're armed with the knowledge of a better world, how can you lose it? Especially if it happens to you often? At a certain point, my mind would be forcing itself to realize that it has gotten better, and so it will again...
That's a fairly logical point, but it's not the way it works unfortunately. It's not that you *forget* the good times in between but (in my own case anyway), something vaguely negative may happen (not *necessarily* a fundamentally life-ruining event from a logical perspective) and that will be taken as a sign that one is insignificant in the lives of others, uncared for, a bad person, not worthy of life etc etc etc. The 'vaguely negative' thing will, because of the nature of depression, have caused a further imbalance of the chemicals that control depression, and thus catalyse these thoughts and feelings all over again.

However, I in my own case I must agree that I wouldn't attempt suicide in such a situation because, yes, it has gotten better for prolonged periods of time. However, when I did attempt suicide, it was because I had suffered from severe depression almost constantly for a number of years (with any good points being very rare and extremely short-lived).

I don't know... I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating the power of hormones over your thought processes, but I just don't see how a healthy mind (otherwise) could be overcome by them... Therefore, that mind must be unhealthy beforehand...

Yeah, like I said above, while there is usually a contributory factor to a bout of depression (though certainly not in all cases), it's the hormones that ultimately govern how you feel and they are *really* bloody powerful. In this case, unfortunately so.

PS. I agree with Helioterra that in most cases of manic-depression, suicidal thoughts are more likely when the person is feeling manic. I think that 'manic' ought to be differentiated from 'happy'. These people are still seriously ill in that circumstance, not living a normal, happy life. I actually only know one person with manic depression (well, I used to know a second, but that was years ago), so maybe I'm not a good authority on the subject, but in her case when she was 'manic' she saw suicide as a wonderful thing and talked enthusiastically about it. (I don't know her well enough to know if she's ever attempted it, but thankfully, she seems to be coming out of the depression now :))

I'm very confused about something now... I've seen quite a few cases in this thread of "cyclical" depression... Where you're depressed sometimes, but not others... And in at least one case, the person is depressed to suicidal levels on each downturn...

And, I also know of manic-depression, where there's nothing but an emotional "roller coaster"...

And I just don't understand it...

I mean, if you're alright sometimes, do you just lose your memory when you become depressed again? Do you just automatically forget that life really was alright after each low?

Personally, yes. When I'm depressed, I can't imagine *EVER* feeling non-depressed. I can't remember what it's like to be happy. I believe that this low *won't* end. In fact, I rationalise that it's the *highs* that aren't real, because they end.

I just don't see how someone could "beat" something once, but then fall back into it again, and seemingly not remember that it could be beaten...

Once you're armed with the knowledge of a better world, how can you lose it? Especially if it happens to you often? At a certain point, my mind would be forcing itself to realize that it has gotten better, and so it will again...

Again, you'd probably find your brain working in the opposite way - convincing yourself that you are doomed to feel depressed again because the highs are fleeting. After the cycle repeats a few times, it becomes fairly overwhelming.

In fact, I imagine that this reaction would become so strong, that I'd ignore the depression after a while, and pass it off as a "phase"... Sure, suffer through it, but "heck, it's come and gone before, and life was just fine afterwards, so why bother to worry about it this time?"

From my standpoint, the mind controls the body, not the other way around... I don't care what signals you're receiving, or what substances your body is pumping into you, your mind is virtually untouchable, as long as you've got the willpower to make it so...

No, I'm sorry. Hormones completely control you. You can't understand it properly until you experience something like emotional changes due to hormones. Maybe I have a better understanding of it because I'm a girl; I get a free sample of the power of hormones every month. HOrmones totally, totally control your body. Your emotions only exist because of hormones (ie, you can only recognise an emotion because of the hormonal signals your body gives you). When your hormonal signals get fucked over, you start registering the wrong emotions.

You also cannot ignore depression. I know it's hard to understand unless you've experienced (not being patronising, I seriously do understand). The thing to remember is that there is NOTHING rational about clinical depression.

The problem here is that, until you've experienced your body overturning your rational mind, you can't concieve the notion properly. Just like I can't imagine what it would take to make someone kill themselves soley to injure others, I don't expect others to understand why I occasionally get seriously depressed and cut myself up.

Well then, perhaps those that are susceptible to depression and the like just aren't very strong mentally to begin with (not in terms of intelligence, mind you, but just in sheer power of "mind over matter")...

I don't know... I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating the power of hormones over your thought processes, but I just don't see how a healthy mind (otherwise) could be overcome by them... Therefore, that mind must be unhealthy beforehand...

Before I hit highschool, I was incredibly strongheaded, and outspoken, and just generally a happy kid. I don't think anyone would have imagined I could suffer from depression (turns out it runs in the family, since both my parents suffer from different forms of clinical depression).

I also suggest you look into psychology if you want every notion of a 'healthy' mind to be shattered. Most people *aren't* healthy. Hell, techincally happiness is as much of a disorder as depression (if it's not connected to stimulus, but to hormones... think the 'manic' in manic-depressive). The point is, it's not about being weak. It's about a mind essentially unable to correctly interpret input.

For analogy (a very simple one), imagine you've been given a keyboard. You're told to type the word 'happy' whenever you see a light come on. You do so, and think all is fine. After all, you're following the instructions to the dot.

But it turns out that the electric wiring was installed wrong, so everytime the button was pressed to turn on the light, it actually turned it off and vice versa.

Now, even though you responded fine to the stimulus, you've done exactly the wrong thing.

Because your hormones control your brain on the most basic of levels, when your hormones are buggered, you're essentially fucked. And the best (read: worst) part is, that the human brain is incredibly reluctant to admit that it could be wrong. It has a tendancy to interpret things one way. That's why anti-depressants focus on trying to correcting the way your brain deals with hormones, not by changing the hormones themselves.

I don't mean to insult (even though I know that must've been very insulting), and I know that from the perspective of someone who has never had to deal with these sorts of things, I really don't have the authority to make assumptions or pass judgements, but this is just how it seems from my admittedly limited viewpoint...

I do apologize for trying to downplay what is possibly a serious condition, but I can't help it... It just doesn't seem to be that insurmountable from where I'm sitting...

You don't... *really*... insult. I think that as long as you keep in mind that, unfortunately, unless you've experienced it, or been close to someone who has, or studied it, you simply cannot understand depression.

Not as in there's a failing on your part, but simply as in it's not something easy to understand. People tend to assume that everyone works the same way they do, because humans are social creatures... so when someone has got some essential difference, it's quite hard to really, fully understand.

I have just quoted part of this post, it was on page 2 if you want to see the full post. I don't think that I have taken it out of context.

if you're depressed or have serious problems mentally - meh... i dunno. i don't have a very high opinion of mentally ill people anyway... it scares me i guess. if they're functioning members of society, my opinion is maybe they should consider it more deeply than those who have never had anything to live for and cannot even involve themselves to do anything worth while (it would be more like euthanasia than just suicide, i suppose)

Many people live with untreated depression because they are scared of how other people will react. So they pretend that they are ok, because if they get treatment people might find out.

Would you tell people that you had chronic depression and bipolar affective disorder? I don't think so, they might be like Carling Divinity, who I am sure is really a nice person, just ignorant.

And in reply to the post above about hormones not affecting your mind; if you get a shock have you never had a little panic? That's adrenaline - a hormone. For a little while it changes the way you think because your hormones are out of balance. Have you ever heard of premenstrual mood swings? Do you think that women are weak willed if hormone swings alter their moods? Have you ever seen a sad movie and cried a little bit? Did you 'decide' to cry, or could it have been due to a hormone being released? Does eating chocolate make you feel good? That's because there is a chemical in it which affects your mood.

We have the right to live, and I think that we should have the right to die.
I support euthanasia for the terminally ill. However treatment is available for mental illnesses. The responsibility for suicides partly lies with people like Carling Divinity who make it hard for the mentally ill to seek and accept treatment.

Attempted suicide may be cowardly, otherwise they would probably succeed.
Public suicide, or anything that leaves a mess is selfish, but that doesn't make it cowardly.

Please, if you are depressed talk to a doctor. Get medication or counselling, don't waste a possible good future until you have tried every possible way to get help.

this is a very sensative matter (i know i had a speeling mistake). some people use it as a way to get of problems. while others can be slowly dying and they just want to die painlessly. no problem is too big. even the biggest most complecated matter has the simplest answer. its a matter of finding the simple answer. its true. believe it or not. people that might has just have huge dept commit sucide because they can't see a anything there. life looks terrible. nothing is worth living for. but there always is. always. so yes people who want to take the easy way out like just because they are in dept or their parents are getting devoiced that is cowedly. it only hurts the people you love.

It totally depends on the reasons behind it, but personally I dont think anyone can be deemed a coward because they want to take their own life.

Suicide is a very personal thing. Regardless of who else it affects, in the end (quite literally) it is a decision one individual makes and goes through with.

THe actual reasons vary greatly, from an honorable way out, to an end to pain, to a selfish method of revenge, to complete despondancy, to who knows.

As cold as this will sound, because even a suicide note can be written to leave a false impression, the only thing for sure we usually know to go through someone's mind at the end is a bullet. We can speculate, but the only real insight we have into suicide, are the failed attempts.

Cowardise is when you fail to do something you must do, and flee instead of trying again and again. I don't believe it is a duty to live, or to have lots of money, or to succeed in love... Therefore suiciding is not being a coward.

Of course if one suicides because he doesn't want to face responsabilities that imply other people - like, for exemple, someone who has lost his job and does not know how to educate his child - then it is being a coward. But even this requires a huge courage. Ask yourself if you would be able to jump when the subway enters. I mean, go there, stand at the border, and ask yourself, while the subway is coming... You'll see instinct is a strong force.

I'm wondering if people think euthanasia is cowardly?
Not if you have an unbearable, terminal illness, injury, or defect AND, if you arrange the process to allow for your loved ones and those who depend on you to be taken care of with insurance and records, instructions / a will, explanations, treasure maps, safe combinations, and of course nothing that resembles a suicide note which might invalidate the insurance... This is the honorable way to go. I don't mean the Jack Kavorkian way... I mean convince someone to do it for you. Maybe help you arrange an accident...

On Kamikazes :

Any sacrificing of one's own life in the process of taking out an enemy or an enemy weapon with the intent and purpose of preserving, saving, or otherwise sparing the lives of comrades in arms or innocent victims... is not suicide..., it's heroism.

On Samurais and Sepuku / Hara kiri :

The purpose of this act is to spare one's comrades, loved ones, and their village, property, and the virginity / safety of the womenfolk... or one's reputation. All is promised to be spared when the leader(s) of one's group agree(s) to surrender and sacrifice themselves in exchange for the merciful treatment of the above mentioned or the preservation of one's integrity. This is not suicide..., it's the price for the preservation of lives and honor.

On suicide, in general :

Taking one's life when there is nothing to gain other than one's own escape from discomfort or embarrassment is suicide... It is not only cowardly, but it's irresponsible, irreversible, and cruel as well. It's no better than one partner of a married couple with children running away from the responsibilities and obligations they accepted freely and willingly. Anyone who takes their life for no other reason than escaping discomfort or embarrassment while they have loved ones who will suffer from the loss is a coward. There is nothing courageous about suicide, because the perpetrator knows that any pain will be momentary and there will be no consequences to face afterwards. All one needs to die by one's own hand is fear, weakness, or a vengeful heart... LIVING is what requires real courage. Living with zest and gusto requires simply accepting that one's own life is valuable.

Everyone's life is valuable and worth living when there is meaning to it. Our purpose should always be to find or develop that meaning. By being of service to others, we have people to depend on us, giving our lives meaning. When our lives have meaning..., we have the desire to survive, strive, and thrive. When we have this desire..., life becomes something too wonderful and precious to waste.

this is a very sensative matter (i know i had a speeling mistake). some people use it as a way to get of problems. while others can be slowly dying and they just want to die painlessly. no problem is too big. even the biggest most complecated matter has the simplest answer. its a matter of finding the simple answer. its true. believe it or not.
yes, yes, it's true...for exemple, there is a very simple way to resolve the Riemann hypothesis... It is just so complicated to find that way that no one could do it yet :p
You are completely wrong, there is no such law that would make every matter easy to resolve. I gave the exemple of a mathematic problem, but in life it is often very hard, for exemple, to be a chinese opposant of the government. Most of them apparently failed to find the "simplest answer" to stay OK with their morality, so they died :)

That depends. For example:

1. Sacrificing yourself, such as going into a situation knowing you'll die or killing yourself in order to to save another life or to serve the greater good, is not cowardly.

2. Taking yourself out because you can't handle the pressures of life is cowardly. Everybody has problems, and no matter how bad it gets, there is always someone that has it worse and is getting by and/or has been through it and gone on to seek a happy life. To kill yourself for that is pointless, and yes, it is the coward's way out.

It depends if you consider it as brave to live a life you don't find any pleasure in. Most of suicides are not justified, I believe; but a few are. For exemple, I can understand the suicide of a paralitic that has lost all contacts with the rest of the world, and whose only pleasure is listening to music and watching TV. Not so great! If you can understand this, then you must accept that someone can suicide without being a paralytic, it all depends of circonstances.

Afpish, you should seriously put some thought into poetry, that was a beautiful analogy

Poetry? Yeesh, that's for creative types, I'm a geek. I'll leave all that sort of thing to my writer friends. It's probably worth noting, actually, that I have never got *myself* out of depression - it always needs someone else, but not always in the way you'd expect. Sometimes all it needs is explaining it to someone else who's down, trying to talk *them* round, that gets me round too. Sometimes it's just being there to listen to someone who's having actual problems rather than the weird imaginary ones you're plagued with - but what it *never* is, is being told by someone who can't possibly understand that you need to buck your ideas up and that to remove yourself from everyone's way would be a cowardly way out.

Living with zest and gusto requires simply accepting that one's own life is valuable.

If only you knew quite how impossible that can be at times.

Dunno man, those kamikaze chaps might have been brainwashed, misguided or what have you- but they definately werent cowards.

Also I gotta be honest if I found out I had Motor neurone disease or somethin like that I would be thinking of ways to pop my own cork before I got too bad.

I think people should have the right to end their own lives but I do think many people do it for the wrong reasons. Finding out you have a disease like motor neurone disease would be devastation and a lot of people would want to end their lives but if I was in that position I would like to think I would look for ways to make my life enjoyable even with paralysis. MND is what Stephen Hawking was diagnosed with in his 20's and that was in the 70's. He was given 2 years to live. A very depressing thing and he was told he would end up trapped in a body that could do nothing with a fully alert mind. well 30 years later look what he has achieved, his life is still very much worth living even though he is confined to a wheelchair and has to use a computer to speak. People shouldnt be able to make rash decisions about ending their lives just because they are depressed at the time. They should have to wait a period of time and have extensive consultation with psychiatrists before they are allowed to make that decision. If we were all allowed to kill ourselves whenever we felt all was hopeless and life wasn't worth living then half the population wouldnt make it past 16.

Hmm...again another can o worms.

Why is suicide a problem? or what about suicide makes it a problem?

I suggest that suicide may be a cowardly act in some cases but in others it isn't. perhaps i might be better to ask 'when is suicide not a cowardly act?' i think that the act it self is not inherently cowardly, but one must consider the reasons for someone commiting the act.

have you seen the japanease movie 'Brother' ? In it one of the main characters commits suicide to prove his loyalty. This was not a case of desperation but a coldy calculated move intended to secure some other goal. I have no idea what role ritual suicide plays in other cultures, but the recognition that one's life is less important than some other human cause and then actually doing something about that is a powerful idea.

consider soldiers...how do they fit into this equation?

consider also that humans commit suicide, but that other animals don't.

in someway suicide is a very rational thing (whether that rationalization is flawed is another thing entirely). People who take to suicide in an irrational way may indeed be cowards.

Regards
MMB

Hmm...again another can o worms.

Why is suicide a problem? or what about suicide makes it a problem?

I suggest that suicide may be a cowardly act in some cases but in others it isn't. perhaps i might be better to ask 'when is suicide not a cowardly act?' i think that the act it self is not inherently cowardly, but one must consider the reasons for someone commiting the act.

have you seen the japanease movie 'Brother' ? In it one of the main characters commits suicide to prove his loyalty. This was not a case of desperation but a coldy calculated move intended to secure some other goal. I have no idea what role ritual suicide plays in other cultures, but the recognition that one's life is less important than some other human cause and then actually doing something about that is a powerful idea.

consider soldiers...how do they fit into this equation?

consider also that humans commit suicide, but that other animals don't.

in someway suicide is a very rational thing (whether that rationalization is flawed is another thing entirely). People who take to suicide in an irrational way may indeed be cowards.

Regards
MMB

Other animals do commit suicide. Read up on some of the first Bottlenose dolphins kept in captivity. And at least one of the dolphins that played Flipper committed suicide.

I hate how people do that "Only humans are gay, so homosexuality is bad" "but... other animals display homosexuality...". "only humans kill themselves, it must be a bad thing" "but... other animals do it too..."

People shouldnt be able to make rash decisions about ending their lives just because they are depressed at the time. They should have to wait a period of time and have extensive consultation with psychiatrists before they are allowed to make that decision. If we were all allowed to kill ourselves whenever we felt all was hopeless and life wasn't worth living then half the population wouldnt make it past 16.

Agreed. I personally inflict a voluntary time limit on myself - I refuse to act on any suicidal urges unless it lasts for two weeks. And even then, the action I'd take would most likely be to seek counselling, rather than attempt suicide again.

hell no, suicide isn't selfish or cowardly.

people say it's cowardly because they "can't take the pain". do you know how much pain some people have to deal with? do you know what this pain feels like? let me tell you, when every minute of your life you are so emotionally wrecked inside and want to die, you couldn't "take the pain" either. it takes tons of guts to go through with suicide. [/b].



You're insane if you think that you have a monopoly on depression or emotional pain. There are plenty of us who have gone through it, but we didn't succomb to it. There are those of us who have gone through pain that some people who actually committed suicide couldn't even imagine. Yet we lived, we kept living.

Don't tell me about pain or depression.

OK I have to answer this one. I do suffer from depression, but unfortunately for me, *not all the time*, so it's just about impossible to medicate. Most of the time I'm fine, but there doesn't seem to be any way to predict when it will happen. It comes on over a few days, hangs around for a few weeks at most, and then goes. I was talking to a coworker about why he'd been off sick for a while and he said he'd 'failed a sanity check'. This is pretty much what happens to me. It's fairly obvious for those around me when this happens, but only if they've seen it before....

There is, of course, an element of how much I'm hurting at these times, but it's by no means all of it. Mostly I'm feeling bad for inflicting myself on people. Thankfully I tend to make fairly long-term plans. I do not wish to hurt those around me, which is why I'm still here. I start annoying people so they'll feel more justified in having nothing to do with me. I can't see why they'd want to put up with my whining anyway, so I'm nasty to them so they don't need to feel obliged to be nice to me. I think about ways to alienate *everyone* I know, finish whatever's project's going on at work and then go and kill myself in a way that means I don't traumatise some poor train driver/policeman/person walking a dog/cleaner. I don't ever tell people what I'm planning, because I think that would make them feel obliged to try to stop me - and because most of these people are a long way away, coming to see me would be a huge effort for them that I don't want them to have to make. Usually I have things I'm meant to have done for friends, and I go into overdrive to get those things done - but of course I make a mess of it all. Where usually I can make clothes easily, at these times, I can't manage to do simple repairs. Because doing all this takes some time, and my depression is only ever temporary, I only ever get part of the way through my plans. Getting things done for people tends to cheer them up, and it makes me feel slightly less useless having coped with doing it. People I've not seen for a while call out of the blue - it all starts to chip away at the depression to the point where I can *see* that I'm not thinking straight and drag myself back on track. So - am I being cowardly at those times, or just a bit nuts?

You're not being cowardly, you haven't done it yet. I think you need to get a second opinion from a qualified professional, one who might, if I'm reading you right, diagnose you as bipolar, rapid cycling. It happens. It's a long term problem, and you are treatable. If you really have the problem, and it makes you irrational and suicidal, then you need treatment. Don't let anyone tell you you're untreatable. At the rate you're going, your condition is only going to get worse as time goes on.

You're insane if you think that you have a monopoly on depression or emotional pain. There are plenty of us who have gone through it, but we didn't succomb to it. There are those of us who have gone through pain that some people who actually committed suicide couldn't even imagine. Yet we lived, we kept living.

Don't tell me about pain or depression.

Sheilanagig, I don't want to get too personal about all this, since it's obviously a tricky subject.

But it seems, from what you've said here, that your pain was based in reality. Whereas clinical depression isn't. I'm not sure I can claim that that difference is large enough to justify suicide in the case of CD (and for all I know, you might have that as well, since I certainly am not going to claim to know everything surrounding this issue in relation to you).

Personally, the hardest thing for me about my depression is that I KNOW it's baseless, and that makes it so much worse.

You're not being cowardly, you haven't done it yet. I think you need to get a second opinion from a qualified professional, one who might, if I'm reading you right, diagnose you as bipolar, rapid cycling. It happens. It's a long term problem, and you are treatable. If you really have the problem, and it makes you irrational and suicidal, then you need treatment. Don't let anyone tell you you're untreatable. At the rate you're going, your condition is only going to get worse as time goes on.

Well yeah, it's treatable. But quite frankly I'd rather have a few days here and there where I'm as much use as a chocolate fireguard than to lose my job and have sod all prospect of another, and to be wandering round like a bloody zombie all the time - especially as, like I said, it never lasts long enough for me to actually kill myself.

Suicide is always a cowards way out. The only time I would not have this opinion is if the person was at the end days of a terminal illness and were going to die any way and they were in horrible pain. Other then that, what whimps!

Suicide is always a cowards way out. The only time I would not have this opinion is if the person was at the end days of a terminal illness and were going to die any way and they were in horrible pain. Other then that, what whimps!
What utter simplicity. Your logical and rational reasons for thinking this are what? Why do you differentiate from long-term incurable pain that is physical, and that which is mental? Have you been in a situation where suicide crossed your mind? If not, then you have little right to judge those that do. You don't have to like the idea of suicide (who would) but judging suicide cases as cowardly without good reason is unfair.

What utter simplicity. Your logical and rational reasons for thinking this are what? Why do you differentiate from long-term incurable pain that is physical, and that which is mental? Have you been in a situation where suicide crossed your mind? If not, then you have little right to judge those that do. You don't have to like the idea of suicide (who would) but judging suicide cases as cowardly without good reason is unfair.

Hey, I was a teenager too once and I have had many painful things in my life happen. You know what though? I didn't take the easy way out. For one I wouldn't do that to my family, for another now that I have children it's just simply not an option. Mental illness is not a death sentence, you CAN get help. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Any person who doesn't think it's selfish to put their family through that.. well try to find a family that's been through it. You might think differently. Trust me the pain you leave your family in far out-weighs any pain the person who took their life ever could of felt! Every one dies sooner or later, you might as well stick around and see what happens.

Hey, I was a teenager too once and I have had many painful things in my life happen. You know what though? I didn't take the easy way out. For one I wouldn't do that to my family, for another now that I have children it's just simply not an option. Mental illness is not a death sentence, you CAN get help. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Any person who doesn't think it's selfish to put their family through that.. well try to find a family that's been through it. You might think differently. Trust me the pain you leave your family in far out-weighs any pain the person who took their life ever could of felt! Every one dies sooner or later, you might as well stick around and see what happens.

to everyone: there is a difference between painful things and mental disease.

while mental illness is not a death sentence, there are various reasons why people do not seek help. not saying all of them are valid, but from a depressed state of mind they seem to be so.

you don't know that the pain you leave your family could outweigh your pain. you just don't.

and whoever said I was acting like I had a monopoly on depression, I wasn't. I know there are other people here who have been through that. but there are also people here who haven't and have no idea what a person goes through.

no its not

"Is suicide cowardly?"
No real way to tell, I think. One of the primary reasons for suicide is to make others feel sorry they treated the suicide the way they did, so perhaps it's neither cowadly nor courageous in most cases?
Frighteningly enough I agree with you here, Eutrusca.
To me, suicide is predominantly about making other ppl feel sorry for you. It's not cowardly nor is it courageous. It's basically just an extremely selfish action designed to hurt those who love you.
A couple of examples:
My parent's neighbour is a lovely old woman in her 80's (though she did have the most delicious-plums-in-the-universe plum tree on her property cut down a few years ago, but that's another story). On her 80th birthday, her granddaughter committed suicide at home during the day. This meant it was her 11 yr-old daughter who found the body when she came home from school.
I remember thinking at the time "Congratulations. You've managed to totally fuck up the lives of three generations of the same family with your selfish act. Your grandma will never be happy on her birthday again and your daughter will most likely become a teenage drug adict. Way to go!" :rolleyes:

A few years later, I had a Landlord who was one of the nicest, most interesting blokes you'd ever likely to meet. He would charge me less if I went away for a few days, give me a week's free rent at Xmas, and on my birthday and any problem he'd be round that day to fix. He mowed the lawns, and he was charging about 2/3 of the market rent in the first place! He also had a museum (honestly, a museum!) in the basement of his house of 100's of artifacts he had collected over the previous 40-odd years. It was worth a fortune.
He had lots of idiosyncracies - like he never sat on chairs, only knelt on a towel on the floor. Would stay up all night watching infomercials, sometimes would wear his pyjamams all day, etc etc. Slightly agoraphobic as well.
His wife finally told me one day why he was like this - 20 years previous he was a party animal - week-long parties were pretty common. Then one day he went round to pick his nephew (who was only a few years younger than him, so was more like a younger brother) to go for a drink, as they usually did on Friday after work. He found him slumped in the car bright blue, and was unable to resuscitate him. Finding him there led to a massive breakdown that he never fully recovered from. It's obvious that his nephew would have known that his uncle would be the first to find him.

That what suicide does for the ppl who survive you. Truely a selfish act.
I think if you are serious about commiting suicide a better way would be to go to the beach and start swimming. Once you get out far enough, you'll be too tired to get back and just let yourself slip under. Apparently it's meant ot be the most pleasant way to die - drifting off to sleep is how most drowning survivors describe it.
Most importantly, your friends and family will put it down to an tragic accident and so will feel no guilt about "why didn't I see the signs etc".
Killing yourself so no-one feels guilt or misery or has a breakdown because of it is a very courageous act.

to everyone: there is a difference between painful things and mental disease.

while mental illness is not a death sentence, there are various reasons why people do not seek help. not saying all of them are valid, but from a depressed state of mind they seem to be so.
Agreed. And Stephistan, I'm not a teenager! It's not just teenagers that have suicidal thoughts. In fact, here in Belfast, the highest rates of suicide are among men aged 25 - 30. A friend of mine who lives in an area that's especially bad for suicides of this 'category' says a lot of the men in question are gay - and they are socially lambasted for being such, develop depression, end up suicidal. It's a disgrace that that should happen; I'm not saying society is *wholly* to blame - of course these people make their own decisions - but the fact that pressures of this nature contribute to their depression is vile in this day and age.

Sticking to the topic though, I am not an *advocate* of suicide; I agree that the best option is to stick around and see how life progresses and if it gets better. That said, however, sometimes things depend on individual circumstances. Some people, not thinking rationally (understandable due to their illness), may see it as the only viable option. I disagree with that, but it's not for me to judge them.

suicide is mainly because the person doing it has no reason to live any longer i think what do i know huh?

Hey, I was a teenager too once and I have had many painful things in my life happen.


As was I. I didn't have a problem all those years ago. I got through my teenage years just fine. I tend to get through any *actual* troubles just fine. My depression is *completely unrelated*.

You know what though? I didn't take the easy way out. For one I wouldn't do that to my family, for another now that I have children it's just simply not an option. Mental illness is not a death sentence, you CAN get help. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Any person who doesn't think it's selfish to put their family through that.. well try to find a family that's been through it. You might think differently. Trust me the pain you leave your family in far out-weighs any pain the person who took their life ever could of felt! Every one dies sooner or later, you might as well stick around and see what happens.

How can you say that the pain of grief is worse than that felt by a truly depressed person? Based on your own pathetic teenage angst? I've lost people I loved and it is *NOTHING* compared to how I feel when I'm depressed. Christ, I don't think every friend or family member I have dying simultaneously would even *register* when I'm depressed.

I think if you are serious about commiting suicide a better way would be to go to the beach and start swimming. Once you get out far enough, you'll be too tired to get back and just let yourself slip under. Apparently it's meant ot be the most pleasant way to die - drifting off to sleep is how most drowning survivors describe it.

Alright, how did you know what my plan was when I didn't tell anyone?

When im old and have the best part of my life behind me, id like to go when i please. As an atheist, death doesnt fear me, but i still care for what other people feel. I couldn't kill myself if others would badly suffer, so i would have to explain my actions before or after (letter) the act. I do fear dying from decay, like the people who live to 110+ etc who lose all memory and motor functions. I like to think i make my own destiny, but of course, my oppinions will probably change over my lifetime.
As for people considering suicide, stay strong if you have problems. You will find there is always someone who can help or make things better, even if it is only a little. Life is for living, but if the experience is one which you honestly cannot bear, i can say nothing against your choice.

Conversation rapist? 8)

this thread was moving at 2 pages every 60secs, can one man halt something that fast?

Conversation rapist? 8)

this thread was moving at 2 pages every 60secs, can one man halt something that fast?

I think it's just all been said by now...

Why not? If you think about it, You have nothing to lose by believing in God, if your athiesm is true, then you will die and nothing will have mattered, but If God is true, then I wouldnt like to be in your position when you meet your end. Not only does God give you a purpose, its a purpose worth living for.

If that is your only purpose then either you or your god is fucking selfish. Or short-sighted. Think of cause and effect. Everything a person does has unlimited ripples. Be kind to someone, and that changes how that person interacts with the next person he or she comes in contact with and on down the line. That is just a small example. All of existence is part of the matter/energy complex that makes up the universe, and as such is a force that interacts with and shapes the universe. Our existence changes and defines the now and the future. Yes, individual influences can be "covered up" in time, but never undone. All that we do and are becomes part of the entire fabric of reality. So even if we end, our existence has mattered. That alone is purpose.

Yes, suicide is cowardly. It is the action taken on the part of the individual to ESCAPE a situation deemed unconfrontable. However, the fact that there is a majority in this vote who feel otherwise indicates that we are not a society that values facing up and toughing out your problems. That also means that this society does not value persistence and the concept of making things go right and persisting until they do. We need to markedly raise our standards, because our standards are too low. An individual is responsible for his/her own condition, which means there is ALWAYS something that can be done to improve the situation. ALWAYS.

I don't think you understand the nature of depression. Depression isn't just something caused by problems or bad situations. In fact sometimes having external problems can make depression easier because it offers an explanation, something to work towards. The hardest times are when you can look at your life and it is going right on track, just the way you want it to, a way the should make you happy, in such a way that you would be happy if it weren't for depressive illness, but you still feel as though everything were horribly wrong. That is why there are so many cases where people claim not to understand why the suicide happened because finally everything was going so right for the person who took that action.

it's selfish because it hurts other people?

yeah it affects other people's lives. that's horrible.

but um, you're dead. the only thing you had, your life, is gone. those people are still alive. it's a horrid thing that they have to suffer, but I wouldn't say that it's the person being selfish.

I don't think you understand the nature of depression. Depression isn't just something caused by problems or bad situations. In fact sometimes having external problems can make depression easier because it offers an explanation, something to work towards. The hardest times are when you can look at your life and it is going right on track, just the way you want it to, a way the should make you happy, in such a way that you would be happy if it weren't for depressive illness, but you still feel as though everything were horribly wrong. That is why there are so many cases where people claim not to understand why the suicide happened because finally everything was going so right for the person who took that action.

God yes... anyone who expects any sort of rational thought from someone who's clinically depressed, rather than feeling crushed by their situation, is going to end up very confused and upset. Nothing gets me out of my depression as easily as someone I care about having a crisis. I don't much care what happens to me. It's probably easiest to think of it as the two little voices in everyone's head, (battle of someone by blues traveler explains it a bit, as does the 'confidence and paranoia episode of Red Dwarf) one the biggest fan, and one the harshest critic. Simon Cowell has *nothing* on that critic. And the fan's gone AWOL...

Having not read any of the thread...I shall add my two cents.


Suicidies don't really want to die. They want attention. They feel that no one loves them, and no one cares, and they feel that the only thing left to make other people pay attention to them is to kill themselves (keep in mind that this is mostly subconscious). The desire is not to die, but to feel wanted or needed. Outwardly, yes, they want to die, but not for death itself, they simply want the pain to go away.

Is it stupid? Yes, but it's understandable. Is it selfish? Absolutely. But then, we're all stupid and selfish sometimes. I know very few people who haven't considered suicide before, and I know a few who have tried. I know of one person who did.

Sheilanagig, I don't want to get too personal about all this, since it's obviously a tricky subject.

But it seems, from what you've said here, that your pain was based in reality. Whereas clinical depression isn't. I'm not sure I can claim that that difference is large enough to justify suicide in the case of CD (and for all I know, you might have that as well, since I certainly am not going to claim to know everything surrounding this issue in relation to you).

Personally, the hardest thing for me about my depression is that I KNOW it's baseless, and that makes it so much worse.


I guess there's a point to that, but really, there's got to be an alternative to suicide for depression. The trouble is that they're not reasonable on that point, and it's often very hard to catch it before there's nothing you can do about it anymore, because they're dead.

I remember a friend of mine in high school tried to commit suicide, and I sent a savage letter to him in the hospital, telling him that he hadn't thought about the people who cared about him, and the people who would miss him, and would want him in their lives no matter how flawed he thought he was. I told him that whatever the problem was, I'd rather help him through it than lose him, no matter what it was. He later told me that I was the only person who had asked him if he was okay in the days leading up to his attempt. He credited me with saving his life. I don't believe that I did, I think he saved it himself, just by reconsidering, and waking up long enough to realise that there were people who loved him, and wanted him to live, just because he made their lives that much brighter.

The thing is, I think there are a lot of people out there who care, but depression makes people see the world through tunnel vision, and they can't see that people love them, and would help them through it if they only knew how. I think a lot of the people in this forum who have posted should take the time to open up about what's bothering them, because nobody can do anything about something they don't know. People with these problems need to learn to communicate, instead of cherishing their pain in some sick way, and keeping it inside of them.

Well yeah, it's treatable. But quite frankly I'd rather have a few days here and there where I'm as much use as a chocolate fireguard than to lose my job and have sod all prospect of another, and to be wandering round like a bloody zombie all the time - especially as, like I said, it never lasts long enough for me to actually kill myself.

You're not making sense. I work with kids who have problems, very often the same one you have.

Would you rather spiral down to inevitable suicide than have the possibility of managing what you've got to deal with? Because deal with it you must, one way or another. I'd rather not see you leave it until it becomes a terminal thing. I don't know you, but I don't want you dead.

The problem you have is one that will only get worse if you don't get help. A job is not as important as your life, and you don't know that you'd lose your job. I knew a man once who had a breakdown, because he left it until he just went batshit and trashed the office one day. He would have maybe saved himself that experience by going for treatment. You might be saving your job by going for treatment. If you do lose your job, maybe they weren't the kind of people you needed to be working for anyway.

See a doctor, maybe change your scene to something that doesn't leave you in pieces. For god's sake, don't become a bipolar self-medicator. A lot of people with bipolar disorder have alcohol and drug problems. I used to live with a woman like that. She would disappear for days when she was in a depressive cycle, and come back telling me how she'd sat in her car contemplating suicide. Sometimes she'd get downright delusional, and imagine that the FBI was going to burn down the house and kidnap me. You don't want to get to that stage.

Suicide is always a cowards way out. The only time I would not have this opinion is if the person was at the end days of a terminal illness and were going to die any way and they were in horrible pain. Other then that, what whimps!

Would you like to change that to direct it at me? I'm curious if you can hold that view about an individual, rather than just a group of people.

I've considered suicide, attempted it more than once, and still turn to physical self-harm as a way to deal with stress.

Both my parents suffer from forms of Clinical Depression (my father's was largely due to ill health and problems with his thyroid, my mother's was brought on by severe, long term anxiety), so I most likely have more than just teenage hormones to deal with (although I'm putting off getting diagnosed until I'm out of my teens).

Clinical Depression is a terminal illness - if not treated, it tends to end with death by, you guessed it, suicide. The trick is to realise that suicide caused by CD is NOT a reaction of the brain; it's a reaction of the body.

Frighteningly enough I agree with you here, Eutrusca.
To me, suicide is predominantly about making other ppl feel sorry for you. It's not cowardly nor is it courageous. It's basically just an extremely selfish action designed to hurt those who love you.
<snip>....

So... you're telling me that I acted out of a desire to make people suffer? Despite the fact you don't know me? At all?

Guess what, I DON'T want people to feel sorry for me. I HATE people feeling sorry for me. I go to great lengths to make people NOT feel sorry for me. I hate the idea that if I died, people would be sad. But when I'm depressed I DON'T think anyone would miss me. I think I'm doing what's BEST for them. Christ.

And when I'm depressed and suicidal I don't believe anyone loves me. So if you think for a second that I act out of some desire to 'hurt people that love me' you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I've said it before, but obviously no one bothers to read the posts in this thread: when I am suicidal, I fully believe I'm doing the best thing possible: sparing people from having to deal with me, letting my family go on without me.

If you can't grasp what would make people kill themselves, the answer isn't to say "OMG THEY SUCK".

Just because the family is hurt, doesn't mean that suicide is cowardly. Suicide hurts everyone. It should be avoided. In an ideal world, everyone could be helped, and it could be stopped. Currently, though, we have a world where people would rather assume that people who kill themselves are bad and evil, instead of assuming that they're normal people suffering from an illness.

All part of that 'if THEY were bad people, I'm safe from their fate, because I'M not a bad person... but if it's just an illness... why, *I* might be at risk too!' attitude people love so much.

Bah.

Im a Sadist ;)

You're not making sense. I work with kids who have problems, very often the same one you have.

Would you rather spiral down to inevitable suicide than have the possibility of managing what you've got to deal with? Because deal with it you must, one way or another. I'd rather not see you leave it until it becomes a terminal thing. I don't know you, but I don't want you dead.

The problem you have is one that will only get worse if you don't get help. A job is not as important as your life, and you don't know that you'd lose your job. I knew a man once who had a breakdown, because he left it until he just went batshit and trashed the office one day. He would have maybe saved himself that experience by going for treatment. You might be saving your job by going for treatment. If you do lose your job, maybe they weren't the kind of people you needed to be working for anyway.

See a doctor, maybe change your scene to something that doesn't leave you in pieces. For god's sake, don't become a bipolar self-medicator. A lot of people with bipolar disorder have alcohol and drug problems. I used to live with a woman like that. She would disappear for days when she was in a depressive cycle, and come back telling me how she'd sat in her car contemplating suicide. Sometimes she'd get downright delusional, and imagine that the FBI was going to burn down the house and kidnap me. You don't want to get to that stage.

Like it or not, there is a huge stigma to mental illness of any sort. There's a form I had to fill in when I joined this company, of any illnesses I'd been diagnosed with. Depression and a couple other things were on that list. This had to be filled in when I was in my 3 month trial, where I could be let go without them having to give a reason. It's not in the interest of a company to employ someone in a unique position, that they depend on, if they basically put on the form that they're unreliable. If I were one of a team, it wouldn't be a problem, but there's no-one else can do this job if I'm off.
I hate dealing with job searches, and having found a well-paid job that pretty much exactly matched to my rather eclectic skill set, I want to hold on to it. I'm fine for 90% of the time. I have debts to deal with, and can't afford to walk away from it.
Even so, I did go to my GP a while ago, before I had this job. Possibly because I was OK at the time, he said it was my hormones and put me on the pill - even though I'd told him that it didn't in any way corrsepond to my cycle. He said to let him know if it had helped when I went back for a repeat prescription. I said it didn't necessarily happen within three months, but because it hadn't, he assumed it worked. If I went in now, he'd say it was hormones again because I had the contraceptive injection once - and only once because they stopped offering it - and coming off it has screwed up my hormones.
I will be moving to a different area as soon as my boyfriend gets a local job, and I'm told by friends already living in that area that their GP is less of an arse, so we'll see then.

Like others have mentioned, it depends on the situation.

If you kill yourself because you can't get a girlfriend or something you are pathetic and weak.

I personally have suffered through more than almost anyone who has ever lived, now to say that I am "better" than someone who has attempted or gone through with suicide is a lie. I know the thoughts and feelings of these people, my uncle killed himself when i was nine, but he was haunted by a lot more than some of these teens who kill themselves because of a boyfriend or girlfriend that left them. Suicide, unless your being haunted by something, is not a way out. Unless of course you can tell the future and for you there is nothing ahead, live life as much as possible.

When life throws you lemons, smash them and make lemonade...stinkin' lemons.

When I say i have been through a lot, trust me, unless you have a few days time to waste.

Sigh...

Clinical Depression = NOT based on 'bad things happening' (although, individual periods of depression CAN be sparked off by non-self causes). Clinical Depression is caused by hormones.

So everyone who is saying 'I've had bad stuff happen, so I understand'... no. You really, truly don't. Because Clinical Depression is NOT caused by 'bad stuff happening'. It's caused by the brain being fundamentally unable to correctly process hormonal input, or by the body releasing the wrong hormones in response to stimulus.

yes I do think that suicide is cowardly and this is from someon who has tried it twice and is still on medication fro depresion.

Said by somone who has had way to much experiance with depression and attempts at suicide. It is simply running away. It is giving up. It is may be a way out, but the way to go is to keep fighting.

Like it or not, there is a huge stigma to mental illness of any sort. There's a form I had to fill in when I joined this company, of any illnesses I'd been diagnosed with. Depression and a couple other things were on that list. This had to be filled in when I was in my 3 month trial, where I could be let go without them having to give a reason. It's not in the interest of a company to employ someone in a unique position, that they depend on, if they basically put on the form that they're unreliable. If I were one of a team, it wouldn't be a problem, but there's no-one else can do this job if I'm off.
I hate dealing with job searches, and having found a well-paid job that pretty much exactly matched to my rather eclectic skill set, I want to hold on to it. I'm fine for 90% of the time. I have debts to deal with, and can't afford to walk away from it.
Even so, I did go to my GP a while ago, before I had this job. Possibly because I was OK at the time, he said it was my hormones and put me on the pill - even though I'd told him that it didn't in any way corrsepond to my cycle. He said to let him know if it had helped when I went back for a repeat prescription. I said it didn't necessarily happen within three months, but because it hadn't, he assumed it worked. If I went in now, he'd say it was hormones again because I had the contraceptive injection once - and only once because they stopped offering it - and coming off it has screwed up my hormones.
I will be moving to a different area as soon as my boyfriend gets a local job, and I'm told by friends already living in that area that their GP is less of an arse, so we'll see then.


I take it you're going on NHS? God I had a problem with those doctors. Unless you were actually a triage case, they thought you were wasting their time. They often don't take the time to do a proper diagnosis of patients, either. I hope that things work out for you, and that you get a better GP. Good luck.

Sigh...

Clinical Depression = NOT based on 'bad things happening' (although, individual periods of depression CAN be sparked off by non-self causes). Clinical Depression is caused by hormones.

So everyone who is saying 'I've had bad stuff happen, so I understand'... no. You really, truly don't. Because Clinical Depression is NOT caused by 'bad stuff happening'. It's caused by the brain being fundamentally unable to correctly process hormonal input, or by the body releasing the wrong hormones in response to stimulus.

Depends on how bad the "bad things happening" are.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is real, and often occurs with depression and the symptoms become chronic in about 30% of the people who get it.

Would you like to change that to direct it at me? I'm curious if you can hold that view about an individual, rather than just a group of people.

I've considered suicide, attempted it more than once, and still turn to physical self-harm as a way to deal with stress.

Both my parents suffer from forms of Clinical Depression (my father's was largely due to ill health and problems with his thyroid, my mother's was brought on by severe, long term anxiety), so I most likely have more than just teenage hormones to deal with (although I'm putting off getting diagnosed until I'm out of my teens).

Clinical Depression is a terminal illness - if not treated, it tends to end with death by, you guessed it, suicide. The trick is to realise that suicide caused by CD is NOT a reaction of the brain; it's a reaction of the body.

Seek help!

Depends on how bad the "bad things happening" are.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is real, and often occurs with depression and the symptoms become chronic in about 30% of the people who get it.

Oh, yes, that's true. But even PTSD is a result of outside events causing a physical change - in that case, isn't it due to long term anxiety, which buggers up your response-to-stress system?* Ie, while the root issue is serious trauma, the depression occurs because of physical changes to the body.


*3am is NO time for proper science terms.

Seek help!

Oh, I will, if it reaches a certain point. If it lasted solidly for two weeks, I would, and if it continues past the stage where my hormones *should* be affecting me, I will.

Currently, I don't much trust any medication they could put me on (considering the state of my hormones). And counselling wouldn't work unless I was free to find the right doctor - which I couldn't do without stressing out my parents, which would actually cause me to be more at risk of relapsing.

Currently, I've dealt with the depression by cutting out the things that were acting as the main stimulii for it. I still stumble across the occasional sucky reminder, but I am doing things to counteract my depression, don't worry.

If your life doesn't seem worth living then I would support your right to end it.


Suicide is most commonly caused by depression, a dissease that can be easily treated. The problem is getting them the medicine before it goes this far.

i do and don't think suicide is cowardly, i know and have known of people who have killed or tried to kill themselves. Some attempts of it are complete attention seeking, which isnt bad cos if ur attention seeking then obviously u need help but going to such extremes without the real intention of going through with it is somewhat selfish. People who do do things like what obviously see this as the only way of coping....i just dunno. In my opinion u wud need to have a seriously messed up life with a lack of love to go through with something so terrible and put people who love you through that sort of pain...so really what im sayin is...i dont no, :confused:

Suicide is most commonly caused by depression, a dissease that can be easily treated. The problem is getting them the medicine before it goes this far.

Medicine isn't a cure-all. (I have a story about a friend of mine but i've told it enough times its like the call of some rare bird ;)) What's more important, I think, as with all things is attacking the cause, not the symptoms.

Suicide is most commonly caused by depression, a dissease that can be easily treated. The problem is getting them the medicine before it goes this far.

Thats a kind of sweeping statement, depression can be helped by medicine and therapy but not always, some depression fails to respond to neither meds or therapy, it's down to each individual sufferer to *want* the help and then to be open enough to the treatment to benefit from it.

Medicine isn't a cure-all. (I have a story about a friend of mine but i've told it enough times its like the call of some rare bird ;)) What's more important, I think, as with all things is attacking the cause, not the symptoms.

Amen. I think medicine has to take a more holistic approach to treating illness, and instead of just treating the symptoms, try to get at the underlying cause. I suppose I could make allegations that the medical community doesn't want a well patient base, but whatever.

I think that a lot of people with depression could benefit from an approach that treats the chemical imbalance, but goes further to say, give financial counseling, or marriage counseling, if those things happen to be the problem.

Yes. Depending on the circumstances. I don't mean to offend anyone who knows someone that commited suicide. Please know that.

It most definitely isn't cowardly if someone essentially kills themself (crazed charge into a huge group of enemies, jump on someone protected by men with guns, etc.) for a cause they truly believe in.
I'm not quite sure about the depressed ones.

If you can't deal with a little pain and suffering, and the only way out that you see is to end your life, you are weak and cowardly. Thousands of people go through it. I went through the loss of a very close family member, being dumped by my girlfriend, depression and immediate family troubles all within a few months. I sunk further into depression as time went on, felt absolutely horrible, but I kept on keeping on. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and if you can't brave the difficulties and keep on, you're a coward. Suicide is never anything but cowardice, it is the easy way out.

It most definitely isn't cowardly if someone essentially kills themself (crazed charge into a huge group of enemies, jump on someone protected by men with guns, etc.) for a cause they truly believe in.

Agreed there, but in that case it's sacrifice, not suicide. That is very noble indeed.

In my opinion it takes guts to kill yourself, but not in all cases. If someone kills themself through deliberately taking loads of drugs or drink while partying i think that's kinda stupid...