NationStates Jolt Archive

It's because humans in general want what they can't have.

Goddamn humans....

I don't know for certain, but I don't think I like nice guys... because most 'nice guys' seem to think that agreeing with me and giving in to everything I want (and hence seething in silence through having to coddle me) is 'nice'. I need a guy who'll tell me to snap out of it if I'm being a pain, and tell me straight if they don't want to see me on a certain day.


Not really. I'd like to consider myself a "nice guy" in that I treat my girlfriend decently, respect her feelings and try to make her happy as much as possible. Doesn't stop me telling her she's getting on my nerves or being a bloody idiot sometimes (though not in those words, and not at certain times of the month. Then I just lock myself in the toilet for a week or so). Don't confuse "nice" with "unassertive"

I don't know for certain, but I don't think I like nice guys... because most 'nice guys' seem to think that agreeing with me and giving in to everything I want (and hence seething in silence through having to coddle me) is 'nice'. I need a guy who'll tell me to snap out of it if I'm being a pain, and tell me straight if they don't want to see me on a certain day.


Thank you. :)

Not really. I'd like to consider myself a "nice guy" in that I treat my girlfriend decently, respect her feelings and try to make her happy as much as possible. Doesn't stop me telling her she's getting on my nerves or being a bloody idiot sometimes (though not in those words, and not at certain times of the month. Then I just lock myself in the toilet for a week or so). Don't confuse "nice" with "unassertive"

But you see, I don't confuse nice with unassertive. Unfortunately, a whole bunch of guys that think of themselves as 'nice guys' do.

See, this calls for Capital Letter Usage (tm). You're a nice guy, but you aren't a Nice Guy. You (presumably) don't act the way you do because you want to get points for being a Nice Guy... you do it because your value system (again, presumably) suggests it's the right way to act.

And similarly, you aren't sitting around complaining about how girls don't like Nice Guys - you've got a girlfriend.

Of course, it's possible that if you were single you'd be complaining about how girls don't like nice guys; I'm going to be charitable though, and assume you wouldn't.

Personally, I do want to be treated decently, but not if it means getting my way *all* the time, and the guy seething in poorly-hidden frustration (my experience with nice guys... very telling, isn't it?). And not if it means being a constant focus of attention (I can open my own doors, and pull out my own chairs, and it's sweet to do it once in a while, but annoying if it happens all the time). Maybe it's just me and my crazy combination of liking equality and disliking attention, but Nice Guys tend to be totally, totally smothering.
...

And the whole not being mean during that time of the month... that's your self-preservation kicking in. Any guy who isn't nice during that time isn't 'mean' or 'evil' - he's either suicidal, or stupid.

Thank you. :)

:D :fluffle:

Now, when I say 'sample' women I don't necessarily mean become a womanizing pig (though they are not necessarily bad). I mean date alot. Flirt alot. Talk alot. Just don't cross the threshold to gf or even friend.


Well, this is one way to go. Not the way I went, however. Or rather it is, but rather for a short period before it got very boring. Myself I decided not to bother with anything until I found someone I really wanted. Cue increadibly long and painful waiting period. During this period, though, I had many female friends, and I suspect the fact that I wasn't in any way (well, not in any way but you get what I mean) interested in getting between their thighs helped me keep them as friends. Because I was close to them I learnt a lot about how women tick (note, this wasn't an aim in having them as friends, just a benefit I came to realise later). This has proved invaluable in later getting and keeping a girlfriend.

So having female friends is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you just want to get laid or have a non-serious romantic relationship, that is. Which is fair enough and if so Bozzy's advice is pretty good.

Might I suggest you look at this website: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

Might I suggest you look at this website: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

Hey, good site, despite the name. I particularly like the following quote from this (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/predicate.shtml) article

Women don't want nice guys. In my experience, with friends, partners, and other interactions, they like *KIND* guys. The difference is a subtle one, but it's important.

Hey, good site, despite the name. I particularly like the following quote from this (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/predicate.shtml) article


Yes, I realize some folks might not click the link because of the name of the website however if you guys really know what women don't like "nice guys" it's a good read.

Might I suggest you look at this website: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

I approve.

Hey, good site, despite the name. I particularly like the following quote from this (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/predicate.shtml) article

Following up on that one:

Someone can be a 'nice asshole' just as easily as a caustic asshole.

That is so true.

http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp02142004.gif

amen to this, bro. i myself have been faced with this situation multiple times. if they cannot realize that you are an attractive person on the inside, and they always go for the jerks, there's a 2 word phrase that i tell myself that cheers me up. it is, "screw 'em" i know that doesn't always work, but it builds self-confidence. i think to myself, "one day, i'm gonna find a girl even better than her, and she's going to want to get with me." works like a charm. ;)

Sex is the most important. Start out trying to "making love" with her and
then ease into telling her what to do, talk really dirty, and start to fvck the
back out of her. Women want to be dominated in bed. You must be the
driver.


Not all women want to be dominated in bed, some of them like to do the dominating. ;)

You know, this all works in reverse just as well. There are plenty of self-professed "nice girls" who constantly insist all men are pigs because all they like to do is date good-looking girls instead of "nice girls", when the "nice girls" are actually the most heinous, condescending bitches in the world. Just thought that bore mentioning.

i have to agree with Sdaeriji. the fact is most guys are driven by physical atttaction. but then again, it's not just physical attraction witht the girls. they are actually turned on by the jackasses!

i have to agree with Sdaeriji. the fact is most guys are driven by physical atttaction. but then again, it's not just physical attraction witht the girls. they are actually turned on by the jackasses!

That isn't even close to what I was saying at all. I'm just saying that there are the same group of girls as these "nice guys", girls who think they're sweet and funny and the only reason that guys don't date them is that they're not physically attractive enough, when in reality they are mean and spiteful and condescending.

First off, here are some pictures of me:

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124201

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124202

Not bad, right?

Anyway, I cannot form a relationship with any non-slutty girls, because I'm too nice. I always get the same response, "Ryan, you're the sweetest guy I've ever met, but I'm not good with relationships. I don't want to hurt you." Then they always go for the jerk, because they aren't afraid of hurting his feelings.

In conclusion, don't be a nice guy, because it will get you nowhere with women.

Stop whining. Women don't dislike nice guys, but they do want men who act like men. That doesn't mean you have to be a Neanderthal jerk or an insensitive lout, but you do have to pull it together and become more self confident and assertive. Women want to know the man they are with can handle himself and protect her and, eventually, her children. It is a genetic thing.

Get comfortable with who you, learn to be a man in a world of men, and stop worrying about that tired old cliche about women not liking nice guys.

my bad, i misunderstood that. but what i was was sayin' still stands. but i definetly agree with what you are saying too. and they piss me off, too.

Ogiek,

Perhaps you are right, i dunno, i'm not a girl. but from what i've seen, the fact of the matter is that girls don't have a damned clue about what they want. they change their mind all the time (for the most part.)

Ogiek,

Perhaps you are right, i dunno, i'm not a girl. but from what i've seen, the fact of the matter is that girls don't have a damned clue about what they want. they change their mind all the time (for the most part.)

And you don't? That's a ridiculous assertion to make about all girls. Maybe one or two that you've met have been overly indecisive, but that's hardly an indication of all females everywhere. What you just said is incredibly condescending towards women and you don't even realize it.

Nice guys don't finish last, they merely finish after everyone else. It takes time to get a girl to like you while you're being a 'nice guy', but it also lasts a LOT longer and is a LOT better.

Plus, just a regular friendship isn't too bad, either.

That is very true. If you want the girl, be a jerk. Girls always say they want nice guys, but they always end up with jerks.

Could it be that it's because the "Nice Guys" are really jerks? Why yes as a matter of fact. One should be highly suspect of anyone whining about how they can't get a date because they are "too nice".

Actions speak louder than words.
Ignore all the women that will make up excuses as to why the girls are with jerks instead of nice guys. I do not know why girls (and women, nothing changes as they get older) go after the jerks but they do.

I loathe the self proclaimed "nice guys", I also don't much care "bad boys" or "jerks". I'd rather have a good man anyday. ;)

Could it be that it's because the "Nice Guys" are really jerks? Why yes as a matter of fact. One should be highly suspect of anyone whining about how they can't get a date because they are "too nice".



I loathe the self proclaimed "nice guys", I also don't much care "bad boys" or "jerks". I'd rather have a good man anyday. ;)

But...you're a girl. You're not supposed to have an opinion! Didn't you know that?

You know, this all works in reverse just as well. There are plenty of self-professed "nice girls" who constantly insist all men are pigs because all they like to do is date good-looking girls instead of "nice girls", when the "nice girls" are actually the most heinous, condescending bitches in the world. Just thought that bore mentioning.


Yeap, I concur.

But...you're a girl. You're not supposed to have an opinion! Didn't you know that?


Lol, Oh I have plenty of opinions and I do know exactly what I want. ;)

Lol, Oh I have plenty of opinions and I do know exactly what I want. ;)

I'm confused, then. You're a female...AND you have opinions? My fragile world is caving in all around me!

I'm confused, then. You're a female...AND you have opinions? My fragile world is caving in all around me!

Hehehehe. :p

Hehehehe. :p

You know, you never talk to me anymore. What gives? I'm not "man" enough for you?

You know, you never talk to me anymore. What gives? I'm not "man" enough for you?


It's not that.

It's not that.

Hah, of course not. I'm more man than every other man in the universe put together.

Your next post will be 666. Fitting.

i apologize if i have offened anyone. plus i did not mean to be inclusive of all girls ( i did say for the most part and from what i've seen) i am by no means condescending any female whatsoever. it's just that i've been let down quite a few times and i have gotten some very ridiculous responses to these kind of situations. i do recognize that females are by no means stupid and insensitive like i supposedly implied. so, i apologize again.

http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp02142004.gif

*ahem*

I just want to say I really like Something Positive. You should all read it and stuff.


I'll go now.

I dont want to come off overly straight minded here but, here is the life cycle of the female lust:

Girls go for Boys
Chicks go for Arseholes
Women go for Men
Ladies go for Gentlemen

Here is the defn’ if anybody is confused:
Girls : aged 14 – 24, beginning to figure out what sort of males they are attracted to, often pursue ‘safe’ or ‘nice’ guys. They have posters of shirtless guys all over their bedroom walls. Talking about sex makes them quite embarrassed unless they are drunk, then they can become quite dirty.

Chicks: aged 18 – 35, have reached a high level of sexual confidence, but important to note that they are actually quite sexually immature. They are attracted to guys that seam exciting, display alpha qualities, and are often bastards to them. The chick is not a bad person, but they are trying to rebel against the idea that female should be tied down with a husband and children.

Women: aged 24 - 50+, have often had exciting, and sometimes dangerous life and sexual experiences. Because of this, they still appreciate these things, but are not proactively looking for the wild life. They find arseholes amusing and immature, and find the stable qualities that the ‘man’ displays as far more attractive.

Ladies: aged 35 +, Are more looking for companionship with a like minded person who they can live out their days in relaxed happy calm.

I know how you feel. I got dumped last year by someone, and their reason was I was too shy. About three days after she dumped me, she was at a party and some guy put his hand up her shirt durring one of those damned party games. She's been with him ever since....

Don't worry, you'll find someone eventualy that you'll just adore and they would never even pass a thought at leaving you. It just takes time.

-Chris

A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired.

Studies have shown that while men tend to fall in love with the woman they meet (never wanting her to change from that), women tend to fall in love with the potential they perceive in a man (whether or not it is actually there).

So while time marches on, and the woman may grow thicker in the middle, or sag here and there, or change a mode of dress, or want to grow spiritually, or redefine herself, that man who fell in love with the woman in the past wonders where she went to and appears to lose interest in the woman he is with now. In most cases, this stems from the man wanting to remain young forever.

On the other side, the woman begins to try to change the man she is with, starting with the outward appearance, and working inward, to make that man match the images she formed in her head. To turn him into the man she believes he can be, so to speak. In most cases, this stems from the woman always seeking to get involved with a man like her father (or bearing aspects her father had) to "fix" the issues she had with her father through the surrogate man. It can be seen in the extremes in odd ways. A woman who grew up ignored by her father, may get involved with an abusive man, believing that this "attention" can be merely adjusted. The abuse changed to caring, but still maintaining the same level of attention paid. A woman who grew up abused by her father might also get involved with abusive men, to specifically change that abusive trait, because they couldn't change it in their father.

Suffice it to say, a lot of women get involved with abusive men, for a variety of reasons. And then, after they get their jaw broken, they refuse to press charges so he can come home as soon as possible, and beat them again. Even those women who taunt death, would still prefer the jerk to a nice guy.

Nice guys don't finish last. They don't finish at all. They are too busy holding the door open for everyone else.

There's also the issue that some 'bad guys' are also 'nice guys'.

I, myself, put off a decent 'bad guy' air. I'm often reffered to as "The creepy guy". I even make a habit of scaring people once in awhile, especially with my trademark demonic laugh and fang-exposing grin (I have relatively angular and sharp canines), which even scare my mother and coworkers who've been exposed to it for years (alas, my normal laugh sounds like Winnie the Pooh and Tigger's helium-loaded love child..). I also tend to look mildly biker-esque, and make claims of being 'evil' fairly often.

I also happen to be disturbingly sweet and loving to those I care about. I get a natural high off of seeing people I care about happy (smiles... yum). While I'm pointedly pleased at the notion of sex (and can go from tiny kisses to leaving bite marks, as per the lady's tastes), and sexual contact, I'm just as happy with a good hug or taking a walk, and, if required, can have just that, and be satisfied with a relationship.

While we're obscenely rare, there is such a thing as the nice guy with the rough exterior. It's just that people think too many people might be someone like me.. and I don't know that I've ever met another (guy, at least, I know a fair number of women who are all hiss and vinager and cuddles) thus far...

As for finishing last.. well... heh. The proof is in the hickies.

While we're obscenely rare, there is such a thing as the nice guy with the rough exterior. It's just that people think too many people might be someone like me.. and I don't know that I've ever met another (guy, at least, I know a fair number of women who are all hiss and vinager and cuddles) thus far...
Actually, I've met people like that before. I am on friendly terms with one that I see daily, and he sounds very much like. So although your type may not be common, it is still out there.

Actually, I've met people like that before. I am on friendly terms with one that I see daily, and he sounds very much like. So although your type may not be common, it is still out there.

Good to know.

The world needs more bad-ass teddy bears.

Meh, I'm generally nice and I have a girl.

Ryan, if you REALLY want to get women, there are two simple methods that have always worked for me.

METHOD ONE

The first should be used if you live in a city.

1.) Arrange a walk with whichever girl you want.

2.) Find a tough-looking hobo.

3.) Pay him to pretend to attack you while you are on the walk.

4.) Purchase a knife.

5.) Go on the walk with the girl. When the hobo "attacks" you, stab him. It should be relatively easy as he is not expecting it. Make sure he dies. This is necessary so that you don't have to pay him. The girl will be scared, of course, but incredibly grateful that you just saved her life.

6.) Tell the cops that the hobo tried to attack you with the knife, and you were able to disarm him.

7.) The girl will be so grateful that she'll have sex with you.



METHOD TWO

Chloroform and a secluded alley. Need I say more?

Hope this helps.

First off, here are some pictures of me:

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124201

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124202

Not bad, right?

Anyway, I cannot form a relationship with any non-slutty girls, because I'm too nice. I always get the same response, "Ryan, you're the sweetest guy I've ever met, but I'm not good with relationships. I don't want to hurt you." Then they always go for the jerk, because they aren't afraid of hurting his feelings.

In conclusion, don't be a nice guy, because it will get you nowhere with women.

Hey now...you're a football player...and from one to another I know you can use that to your advantage. Also, why the hell are you looking for non-slutty girls? Lol. No...I know what you mean.

Anyhow, it's really hard for me to sit here on my computer late at night when I'm bored and give you relationship advice when I don't know you at all. There are pretty much three main things you can do, however, if you take my rather generic advice.

1. Change...but not dramatically. Be the "asshole" on the outside but maintain your "sweetness" or whatever. It sounds stupid and shallow, but act tough and raise your ego a bit. Not too much...just a bit. From my experience girls like guys who are both sure of themselves but insecure at the same time. This gives them the "protection" they want but also gives them something to "improve" or "change." Girls are often looking for that thing to change about you.

2. Stay the course. I'm a pretty nice guy, and the girls I go with adore me but I'm not one that ropes them in left and right. Then again I probably don't seem nice until you get close to me. I have a tendency to be arrogant and sarcastic a bunch. Back to you, if you really are this sweet adorable man (lol) some girl will eventually fall in love with that. It really depends on how long you're willing to wait.

3. That brings me to my next point - assuming you're still in high school by your picture, play the field. Don't get tied down to one girl. Mess around, go to parties, have fun. I wasted a good two years of dating in high school by going out with the "popular girl." Sure she annoyed me. Sure I talked to my female friends more than her. Sure the main reason I was with her was because she was hot....and certain things that came with that. In all honesty, I had more fun being single my senior year, and I got more out of it too...both mentally and...well... :)

I read the heartless bitch article, and I can honestly say that I'm not the kind of person they're talking about, although I know someone who is.

I'm not fake, first of all. This is just my personality. And second, I'm not trying to "score." I would have no problems scoring, because there are plenty of girls around here who aren't interested in relationships, but definitely are interested in sex. What I want is a committed relationship with someone I can talk to and have a meaningful conversation with.

From all the advice I've been given lately, both in this thread and in real life, I've come to the conclusion that I'm too mature. Most girls my age don't really want a committed relationship because it scares them. Basically, I'll just have to wait about 6 years or so, unless I get lucky.

From all the advice I've been given lately, both in this thread and in real life, I've come to the conclusion that I'm too mature. Most girls my age don't really want a committed relationship because it scares them. Basically, I'll just have to wait about 6 years or so, unless I get lucky.

Perhaps. I don't care what they say about girls maturing faster...they must take a large pause in their upper teans and lower twenties.

Still...unless where you live is VERY different from where I live, I don't quite get you not being able to find a girl who doesn't want to commit. Most girls do. Most girls want that steady relationship.

Finally, you saying that you're more mature might just be you trying to act more mature. There is no real reason to have a committed relationship at your age, but even if you REALLY want one...you can't go looking for one. Extended relationships of that nature just happen. They more or less blossom out of smaller ones. You can't get to the finish line without running the race. No skipping step B after step A on your way to C. Etc...

Sorry you had to learn the harsh truth about this, but NO, (most) women don't dig nice guys.
So when they go for an asshole instead of you, and he gets drunk and beats her up, remeber she chose that dickhead instead of going with you.
Revel in it, I have. I'm a nice guy too.
When will they learn?

Perhaps. I don't care what they say about girls maturing faster...they must take a large pause in their upper teans and lower twenties.
You have it wrong. It is that girls hit puberty earlier, on average, and thus typically come out at least a little earlier.

You have it wrong. It is that girls hit puberty earlier, on average, and thus typically come out at least a little earlier.

No no...I was just throwing out (and then down) stereotypes. Tell me that you've never heard "girls mature faster"?

I dont want to come off overly straight minded here but, here is the life cycle of the female lust:

Girls go for Boys
Chicks go for Arseholes
Women go for Men
Ladies go for Gentlemen

Here is the defn’ if anybody is confused:
Girls : aged 14 – 24, beginning to figure out what sort of males they are attracted to, often pursue ‘safe’ or ‘nice’ guys. They have posters of shirtless guys all over their bedroom walls. Talking about sex makes them quite embarrassed unless they are drunk, then they can become quite dirty.

Chicks: aged 18 – 35, have reached a high level of sexual confidence, but important to note that they are actually quite sexually immature. They are attracted to guys that seam exciting, display alpha qualities, and are often bastards to them. The chick is not a bad person, but they are trying to rebel against the idea that female should be tied down with a husband and children.
...snip

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

That is the funniest thing I've ever read.

Firstly, I have NEVER liked 'safe' guys. secondly, guys between 14 and 17 aren't 'safe', they're 'inexperienced'. I never EVER had a problem talking about sex (and the idea of any 14-17 year old getting blind drunk makes me want to throw up). Shirtless guys do not adorn my walls (seriously... if I was going to have any shirtless humanoids on my walls, they'd be female. In a contest of what's more pleasant to look at, women win every time).

Second of all, I'm not 'rebelling against the idea of being tied down with a husband and children'. I don't want children, but that's because I haven't found a guy who's genes are worth replicating. I don't have anything against marriage... although I want it to be a small one (registry office is preferable) because I hate crowds. And thirdly, I love being tied down, so you can blow that out your ear.

THIS is why 'Nice Guys' have trouble finding girls - they're morons that understand NOTHING about girls, and desperately seek out stereotypes that push the blame onto the women.

Instead of 'fessing up and saying "when girls are young, they can get any guy they want, and so didn't bother putting up with my bullshit (whereas some women get anxious as they get older and will settle for much less than they deserve)", 'Nice Guys' blather about how essentially girl's are dimwitted until they finally fall for the 'Nice Guys'.

Nice try analysing my 'cycle of lust', but you were way, way off. Makes me question how many women you've actually met and spoken to.

No no...I was just throwing out (and then down) stereotypes. Tell me that you've never heard "girls mature faster"?

Yes... and you know what that's based on? The fact that they get out of puberty first, and so can think without a cloud of hormones earlier than guys can.

:rolleyes:

We seem to be getting to the point where we can say everyone is different and wants different things so whoever you are and whatever you want out of them, there are people in the world that'll want that too.

We seem to be getting to the point where we can say everyone is different and wants different things so whoever you are and whatever you want out of them, there are people in the world that'll want that too.

But we're still left with these "nice guys" that aren't getting any dates.

But we're still left with these "nice guys" that aren't getting any dates.

They can have the 'nice girls' who bitch about guys going out with hot/smart chicks, right after having a conversation about how they wouldn't go out with fat guys, or nerds, or anyone they don't view as perfect.

Then the rest of us normal people can get on with our bondage orgies.

...

... what? I'm JOKING goddamnit!

They can have the 'nice girls' who bitch about guys going out with hot/smart chicks, right after having a conversation about how they wouldn't go out with fat guys, or nerds, or anyone they don't view as perfect.

Then the rest of us normal people can get on with our bondage orgies.

...

... what? I'm JOKING goddamnit!

You're just confused. You see, you're a female, so your opinions are null and void. You'll sort things out eventually.

Ryan

Heh those looked like High School pictures. Im not sure if you are a Senior in High School or what not.

I can tell you that college girls are quite a bit diffrent than High School ones. They are definately more mature. You will still run into the girls you described in your original post - but they are less frequent. You might want to steer clear of some of the college freshmen girls.

I got that "your a nice guy" junk all the time in High School. It was frustrating because all the women did seem to go for the jerks. College is quite different my friend. Most people are more intelligent. A lot of the looser jerks drop out and cant even get into a good university.

Again you may jsut have to wait until college. Continue to be nice. GL man HF :)

You're just confused. You see, you're a female, so your opinions are null and void. You'll sort things out eventually.

Not until after beating the crap out of a few 'Nice Guys' though, one hopes.

They can have the 'nice girls' who bitch about guys going out with hot/smart chicks, right after having a conversation about how they wouldn't go out with fat guys, or nerds, or anyone they don't view as perfect.

Then the rest of us normal people can get on with our bondage orgies.

...

... what? I'm JOKING goddamnit!

Sorry, I heard the words "bondage orgies"...

:)

But we're still left with these "nice guys" that aren't getting any dates.

Poor little bunnies.

Or maybe they just aren't as nice as they think they are?

Poor little bunnies.

Or maybe they just aren't as nice as they think they are?

Yeah, I think that might be it.

Damn! I never thought this thread would go over three hundred posts. Shows how much I know, but here's my two cents anyway.

Cent One: older women make better lovers. (an old country song, but it's generally true. I just don't know about women over fifty, that's kinda funky unless you're over fifty too)

Cent Two: treat a lady like a whore and a whore like a lady. (don't know where this one comes from, but having been with both, it's generally true. Sorry to both all the ladies and whores out there)

Being a way-nice guy I like affecting the bad-boy look (long hair, leather jacket, tattoo, etc). Not only do plenty of girls openly or secretly love it, but it pissess off plenty of mainstream americans. In the end, you gotta be yourself. But if you want to get anywhere meaningful in life you can never be a weakling. Be nice, just don't let people walk all over you. Be strong, but show compassion when its needed. And don't lie unless it'll get you laid.

AND ALWAYS USE A CONDOM!!!

Last, chances are at some point you will meet the right person. If you hold onto an inner core of goodness through all the bullshit you'll probably go through before you meet that right person, you'll be just fine. I know, patience is bitch, but sometimes it's all you got.

Sorry, I heard the words "bondage orgies"...

:)
oooooo, where? where?

Sorry, I heard the words "bondage orgies"...

:)

hehehe. Vanilla and Raspberry scented/flavoured bondage orgies...

...

Man, I really need to find some source of real-world physical contact ie, a boyfriend or girlfriend. Or both.

hehehe. Vanilla and Raspberry scented/flavoured bondage orgies...

...

Man, I really need to find some source of real-world physical contact ie, a boyfriend or girlfriend. Or both.

What? We're not good enough for you??? :mad:

hehehe. Vanilla and Raspberry scented/flavoured bondage orgies...

...

Man, I really need to find some source of real-world physical contact ie, a boyfriend or girlfriend. Or both.


Bondage orgies are a wonderful source of real-world physical contact. Now we just gotta find one.

What? We're not good enough for you??? :mad:
Oh the dissapointment!

Damn! I never thought this thread would go over three hundred posts. Shows how much I know, but here's my two cents anyway.

Cent One: older women make better lovers. (an old country song, but it's generally true. I just don't know about women over fifty, that's kinda funky unless you're over fifty too)

Cent Two: treat a lady like a whore and a whore like a lady. (don't know where this one comes from, but having been with both, it's generally true. Sorry to both all the ladies and whores out there)

Being a way-nice guy I like affecting the bad-boy look (long hair, leather jacket, tattoo, etc). Not only do plenty of girls openly or secretly love it, but it pissess off plenty of mainstream americans. In the end, you gotta be yourself. But if you want to get anywhere meaningful in life you can never be a weakling. Be nice, just don't let people walk all over you. Be strong, but show compassion when its needed. And don't lie unless it'll get you laid.

AND ALWAYS USE A CONDOM!!!

Last, chances are at some point you will meet the right person. If you hold onto an inner core of goodness through all the bullshit you'll probably go through before you meet that right person, you'll be just fine. I know, patience is bitch, but sometimes it's all you got.

Wow, not a 'Nice Guy' but a 'Way-Nice Guy'. Is that, like, the essence of 'Nice Guy' condensed? Or is it just a mutant strain?

The fact that you act like a 'bad-boy' to attract women suggests you aren't as secure as you seem to claim. Most of the *real* nice guys I've met don't put on worthless facades for the sake of women - mainly because they know that the women worth knowing are majorly, majorly turned off by insecurities like that.

The only *real* nice guys I can vouche for so far would be Grave and Sdaeriji... there are a few others who *seem* nice, but that I don't know. The rest seem like total Nice Guys.

Wow, not a 'Nice Guy' but a 'Way-Nice Guy'. Is that, like, the essence of 'Nice Guy' condensed? Or is it just a mutant strain?

The fact that you act like a 'bad guy' to attract women suggests you aren't as secure as you seem to claim.

The only *real* nice guys I can vouche for so far would be Grave and Sdaeriji... there are a few others who *seem* nice, but that I don't know. The rest seem like total Nice Guys.

I rule!

What? We're not good enough for you??? :mad:

You and Grave are. The rest? Well, I don't really want Nice Guys getting any sexual thrills out of anything I have to say.

You and Grave are. The rest? Well, I don't really want Nice Guys getting any sexual thrills out of anything I have to say.

Wait...we were supposed to be getting sexual thrills out of what you're saying....Sorry hun.

hehehe. Vanilla and Raspberry scented/flavoured bondage orgies...

...

Man, I really need to find some source of real-world physical contact ie, a boyfriend or girlfriend. Or both.

Vanilla and raspberry flavoured bondage orgies...

Now, THERE is something you don't hear every day.

(More's the pity).

;)

Vanilla and raspberry flavoured bondage orgies...

Now, THERE is something you don't hear every day.

(More's the pity).

;)
meh, I'd prefer strawberry and chocolate.

No shit.

What does a woman want from a guy?

Short term - a decent ride.

Long term - a fat paycheck.

Why should it be any different? What good are you if you can't perform you primary male functions, ie fetch the food and knock up the woman?

Honestly. Youth is wasted on the young.

Suffice it to say, a lot of women get involved with abusive men, for a variety of reasons. And then, after they get their jaw broken, they refuse to press charges so he can come home as soon as possible, and beat them again. Even those women who taunt death, would still prefer the jerk to a nice guy.

That's because strong, abusive men give a good hard ride. For some women this is exactly what they want, and they are willing to put up with a lot of abuse to get it. Whereas for such men, usually their reputation gets around enough that they end up having lots of women looking to get serviced, which tends to leave them contempuous about females in general and thus, abusive. And so on.

C'mon people. This isn't rocket science.

Wow, not a 'Nice Guy' but a 'Way-Nice Guy'. Is that, like, the essence of 'Nice Guy' condensed? Or is it just a mutant strain?

The fact that you act like a 'bad-boy' to attract women suggests you aren't as secure as you seem to claim. Most of the *real* nice guys I've met don't put on worthless facades for the sake of women - mainly because they know that the women worth knowing are majorly, majorly turned off by insecurities like that.

The only *real* nice guys I can vouche for so far would be Grave and Sdaeriji... there are a few others who *seem* nice, but that I don't know. The rest seem like total Nice Guys.


Actually, being a nice guy paid off in spades. I'm in a fantastic relationship with the first woman I ever had any real feelings for. We broke up for about seven years and then got back together (over six years now) and will be for the rest of our lives. She loves the outer style while knowing the truth of my inner nice guy self. During those seven years the bad boy act worked quite well - insecure or not, I had a good time.

Now, maybe I'm not as nice I'd like to think I am, but as we've never met it's probably dificult for you to truly know whether I am or not. As far as being insecure? Shit, I'm human. Sue me. We're all insecure to one degree or another. But I'm good with me and the fuck with everyone else thinks. If I wanted more people to like me I'd have conformed to society's expectations of how I should look a long time ago. Like I said, part of the reason I keep up the outward appearance is to fuck with peoples closed minds.

And, yes Sdaeriji, you do rule! :D

No shit.

What does a woman want from a guy?

Short term - a decent ride.

Long term - a fat paycheck.

Why should it be any different? What good are you if you can't perform you primary male functions, ie fetch the food and knock up the woman?

Honestly. Youth is wasted on the young.

I wonder if this was posted in the wrong thread accidentally... since it seems to have no real relevence to any of the goings-on... even the off-topic ones.

How about if we come rattle your cage if we need you?

i got a girl by bein the nice guy :sniper:

Wait...we were supposed to be getting sexual thrills out of what you're saying....Sorry hun.

Of course you weren't. You're nice guys.

I mean, honestly, try and keep up :p

i got a girl by bein the nice guy :sniper:

Was this before or after you shot her with a sniper rifle?

Of course you weren't. You're nice guys.

I mean, honestly, try and keep up :p

Really... oh... maybe I'M not as nice as I thought I was...

;)

Really... oh... maybe I'M not as nice as I thought I was...

;)

hee, well... I'm not recoiling in horror, so you must still be a nice guy. So there (rationalisation ahoy!) :p

i got a girl by bein the nice guy :sniper:

Was this before or after you shot her with a sniper rifle?

lol the bullet must have got her fast and hard all night long

Always leave them on a good note and wanting more. (which is real hard because YOU will probably be wanting more too!

Oh now this one I'd disagree with. For one thing it's *bloody annoying*. You'd get pissed if the waitress took away your pie before you'd finished, wouldn't you? And secondly, it can lead to bunny boiling.

First off, here are some pictures of me:

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124201

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124202

Not bad, right?

Anyway, I cannot form a relationship with any non-slutty girls, because I'm too nice. I always get the same response, "Ryan, you're the sweetest guy I've ever met, but I'm not good with relationships. I don't want to hurt you." Then they always go for the jerk, because they aren't afraid of hurting his feelings.

In conclusion, don't be a nice guy, because it will get you nowhere with women.

1. Wrong. (And superman recently died.)

2. Sounds like you spend too much time with "slutty-girls".

3. "Getting somewhere with women" (MY QUOTE, NOT YOURS) is your problem. Women are 50% of people. Learn to deal with them, or move to Hollywood.

hee, well... I'm not recoiling in horror, so you must still be a nice guy. So there (rationalisation ahoy!) :p

Ah, expert rationalisation... well done.

Now I get to maintain my 'reputation' as a nice guy AND I get vanilla and raspberry scented orgies...

I guess being a nice guy DOES pay off.:)

I read the heartless bitch article, and I can honestly say that I'm not the kind of person they're talking about, although I know someone who is.

I'm not fake, first of all. This is just my personality. And second, I'm not trying to "score." I would have no problems scoring, because there are plenty of girls around here who aren't interested in relationships, but definitely are interested in sex. What I want is a committed relationship with someone I can talk to and have a meaningful conversation with.

From all the advice I've been given lately, both in this thread and in real life, I've come to the conclusion that I'm too mature. Most girls my age don't really want a committed relationship because it scares them. Basically, I'll just have to wait about 6 years or so, unless I get lucky.

To be honest... you're probably right. You sound like if you were about 25 or so (and, well, in the right country) I'd be quite interested in you myself (if I didn't have two lovely blokes already, that is) but as it is, I'd be put off by the thought of Mummy coming after me for corrupting her little boy. Not that it's ever happened before when a lad lied about how old he was or anything...

Sorry you had to learn the harsh truth about this, but NO, (most) women don't dig nice guys.
So when they go for an asshole instead of you, and he gets drunk and beats her up, remeber she chose that dickhead instead of going with you.
Revel in it, I have. I'm a nice guy too.
When will they learn?

If you were actually 'nice' you wouldn't revel in it. HTH. HAND.

You guys still on about why this moody homosexual can't get a date?

To be honest... you're probably right. You sound like if you were about 25 or so (and, well, in the right country) I'd be quite interested in you myself (if I didn't have two lovely blokes already, that is) but as it is, I'd be put off by the thought of Mummy coming after me for corrupting her little boy. Not that it's ever happened before when a lad lied about how old he was or anything...
Two already? No wonder you're in a good mood.

No shit.

What does a woman want from a guy?

Short term - a decent ride.

Long term - a fat paycheck.

Why should it be any different? What good are you if you can't perform you primary male functions, ie fetch the food and knock up the woman?

Honestly. Youth is wasted on the young.

Shallow, worthless women perhaps. I don't want kids, I've got my own damn job - hell, both my men earn less than me - and if all I wanted was the shag, well, that's what goodvibes.com is for.

To be honest... you're probably right. You sound like if you were about 25 or so (and, well, in the right country) I'd be quite interested in you myself (if I didn't have two lovely blokes already, that is) but as it is, I'd be put off by the thought of Mummy coming after me for corrupting her little boy. Not that it's ever happened before when a lad lied about how old he was or anything...

Heh, I wonder what my mom would say if she was still alive and saw me hanging out with kids who are four years older and getting quite...close with one of the girls.

College kids are so fun :D

Two already? No wonder you're in a good mood.

Yep, I'm polyamorous, and am seeing two lovely guys. I'm especially bouncy this weekend, as while I was staying with one, the other got seduced by a friend of mine (who really deserved to have a nice guy herself) and he's happy and she's happy so that makes *me* happy and... and I really should have learned to stick to decaf by now.

Heh, I wonder what my mom would say if she was still alive and saw me hanging out with kids who are four years older and getting quite...close with one of the girls.

College kids are so fun :D

Did I say I was 25 or in college? That's just where I've set my current lower limit.

Yep, I'm polyamorous, and am seeing two lovely guys. I'm especially bouncy this weekend, as while I was staying with one, the other got seduced by a friend of mine (who really deserved to have a nice guy herself) and he's happy and she's happy so that makes *me* happy and... and I really should have learned to stick to decaf by now.
Happy people on a Monday morning cheer me up! Thanks :D
Decaf, bah, no where near as much fun...

Sorry you had to learn the harsh truth about this, but NO, (most) women don't dig nice guys.
So when they go for an asshole instead of you, and he gets drunk and beats her up, remeber she chose that dickhead instead of going with you.
Revel in it, I have. I'm a nice guy too.
When will they learn?

Please save this kind of language for your "PRIVI" sites.

Shallow, worthless women perhaps. I don't want kids, I've got my own damn job - hell, both my men earn less than me - and if all I wanted was the shag, well, that's what goodvibes.com is for.

Sounds like 3 males in a bale. Or 3 she-males.

Firstly I must apologize if this is repeated information. I saw the first post, skimmed and was going to pass it by but felt you might benefit from my thought on the matter. So now with very little awareness of what has been said here I will try to wade in. (I’m normally not this bad with disregarding the thread I’m just so,…… sleepy.)

Okay from what I’ve gathered you’re a high school kid (age 17?) and feel that the ass holes are getting where you can’t because you’re a nice guy. Well you’re right, but here’s why.

Confidence.

When an ass treats a woman like crap and thinks very little of it he is exuding an air of confidence. (Whether that air is a fallacy is another question.) People, all people, like to be around charismatic confident beings. These people end up doing well in life, coming out on top of the social order in high school, or the one running your extra curricular activates. So your ass who is dating the girl your interested in is making her feel better about herself (short term) because she’s ‘riding the wave.’ As long as she’s not the brunt of his assholeness she’s on top of the world. The problem with confidence that stems from being a jerk is this, while these people are magnetic they eventually start to wear on those they attract. This is why the ass doesn’t keep the girl for a long time, a few months and sometimes longer when you factor low self esteem in.

Now this doesn’t really help you does it? Well I’m getting there. In the long term the problem works itself out. As the girls mature they begin to perceive the world around them better and can spot the asses from the nice guys. This in theory sounds like what everyone else is telling you no doubt. They’re all absolutely right, as long as you stay passive in the equation.

The problem with ‘nice guys’ is that they’re passive guys. People in your position make the argument that girls don’t want this that and the other thing but you (most likely) aren’t fishing with the right kind of bait. You need to know where the line is and approach it. You want the best of both worlds here. Arrogance is a bad thing but pride is one step short and that’s where you want to be. You’re a nice guy so you can be earnest about your intentions but stand up a bit. Don’t let these other guys move in on you like this.

The next time you’re talking with a girl and find common interests don’t have the conversation and walk away saying ‘that was nice.’ Grow a pair. If she and you both are interested in seeing a movie tell her that you and your friends are going (even if their not real buds will understand when poon is at stake.) and that she’s going to bring out her friends and go with you. Get her number to co-ordinate. You drive? Offer her a lift. Boom, Boom, Boom, you have an in. Give it a day and call her up and tell her you’re going for coffee.

All the while be in good spirits, no one like a moping traveling companion. If you’re shot down make a joke about it, laugh with her. Let her know it was okay, you take it well and she might recommend one of her friends to you.

Now I must apologize, looking back this makes very little sense to me. I’ve not gone to bed yet, its 8am. So I hope that my message has gotten through but let me paraphrase.
‘Be considerate, be sweet and kind not nice. Be bold, charming and aggressive not an ass. Be perceptive, know her (and your) limits and be jovial not solemn or a braying donkey. Must importantly be true to yourself, but go get what you want.’

Here's a few things to keep in mind:

1. Attraction is an involuntary response. There is no logic behind it. You won't get rewarded for being "nice."

2. Dating is a numbers game.

3. Never take rejection personally. Let's say that you ask a girl out and she says "no." How do you take it?

Wrong way: "Oh man, I'm so embarassed. Once again, I've been shot down. What's wrong with me? Why don't girls like me? She's probably telling everyone right now that I asked her out and they're probably all laughing at me. That's what I get for thinking I had a shot. I won't try that again."

Right way: "She's not interested? Wow. How surprising. Well, at least now I won't have to waste anymore time on her and can concentrate on all the women who will like me."

Will this sort of thinking make you into an egotistical jerk? No. It will mean that womens' opinions of you aren't that important to you, and that's how you want to be. Be the sort of man who you want to be and don't seek validation from women. It's all a game; you're ego's not on the line.

4. Forget what you've been told by others; things won't change as you get older. Again, attraction is involuntary. Women don't stop punishing "nice" guys at any age. I'm 27, and, believe me, women in my age range, (22-30) are the same when it comes to who they're attracted to, for the most part, as girls your age.

5. Always pursue more than one girl at once. This way, you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket. If it's "do or die" with one girl, forget it; it'll never work.

6. Remember, when you ask a girl out, you aren't asking her for a favor, you're DOING her a favor. You don't really care whether she says "yes," or not; if she doesn't, you'll be surprised that she wouldn't want to take you up on such an awesome chance, but you won't be hurt, because there's plenty of girls that want you. She's nothing special. Be a little cocky. Be a little arrogant. But do so in a fun, humorous way. Will this make you into an "arrogant jerk." Maybe, but arrogant jerks get the girls. Besides, nobody's telling you to treat women badly. Just don't be such a wimp.

7. Be specific when asking her out. Don't say, "would you like to get together and do something sometime?" Do say, "I'd like to take you out to see (whatever movie) Friday night, and then we can stop and get something to eat at (whatever restaurant,) afterwards," or whatever. And make your intentions known from the start. You're pursuing a romance, not a friendship.

You're a good looking guy, so, for me, as a low-average looking guy, I don't want to hear you complaining that you can't get a woman. If I can get women using these principles, there's no reason why you can't. Apply some of the things that I've said, and you'll do just fine.

So, judging from what I've read so far, up to page 5....

I'M GONNA HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL I'M EIGHTY BEFORE I FIND THE ONE?!?! :eek:

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! (Plus I just turned 20, so that's only 60 years from now. ;) )

Shallow, worthless women perhaps. I don't want kids, I've got my own damn job - hell, both my men earn less than me - and if all I wanted was the shag, well, that's what goodvibes.com is for.

Sounds like 3 males in a bale. Or 3 she-males.
so, wait, a "real" man is one who wants to be stuck supporting an incapable female who insists on only having procreative sex? or a "real" woman is one who expects males to support her and only have sex with her to produce the babies that she wants?

where i come from, we call males in such a situation "pussy-whipped." odd, how people can have such different definitions of manhood and womanhood.

Here's a few things to keep in mind:

1. Attraction is an involuntary response. There is no logic behind it. You won't get rewarded for being "nice."

2. Dating is a numbers game.

3. Never take rejection personally. Let's say that you ask a girl out and she says "no." How do you take it?

Wrong way: "Oh man, I'm so embarassed. Once again, I've been shot down. What's wrong with me? Why don't girls like me? She's probably telling everyone right now that I asked her out and they're probably all laughing at me. That's what I get for thinking I had a shot. I won't try that again."

Right way: "She's not interested? Wow. How surprising. Well, at least now I won't have to waste anymore time on her and can concentrate on all the women who will like me."

Will this sort of thinking make you into an egotistical jerk? No. It will mean that womens' opinions of you aren't that important to you, and that's how you want to be. Be the sort of man who you want to be and don't seek validation from women. It's all a game; you're ego's not on the line.

4. Forget what you've been told by others; things won't change as you get older. Again, attraction is involuntary. Women don't stop punishing "nice" guys at any age. I'm 27, and, believe me, women in my age range, (22-30) are the same when it comes to who they're attracted to, for the most part, as girls your age.

5. Always pursue more than one girl at once. This way, you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket. If it's "do or die" with one girl, forget it; it'll never work.

6. Remember, when you ask a girl out, you aren't asking her for a favor, you're DOING her a favor. You don't really care whether she says "yes," or not; if she doesn't, you'll be surprised that she wouldn't want to take you up on such an awesome chance, but you won't be hurt, because there's plenty of girls that want you. She's nothing special. Be a little cocky. Be a little arrogant. But do so in a fun, humorous way. Will this make you into an "arrogant jerk." Maybe, but arrogant jerks get the girls. Besides, nobody's telling you to treat women badly. Just don't be such a wimp.

7. Be specific when asking her out. Don't say, "would you like to get together and do something sometime?" Do say, "I'd like to take you out to see (whatever movie) Friday night, and then we can stop and get something to eat at (whatever restaurant,) afterwards," or whatever. And make your intentions known from the start. You're pursuing a romance, not a friendship.

You're a good looking guy, so, for me, as a low-average looking guy, I don't want to hear you complaining that you can't get a woman. If I can get women using these principles, there's no reason why you can't. Apply some of the things that I've said, and you'll do just fine.

Or, alternatively... you could try treating women as if they were the same species as you are, rather than an alien race that you have to figure out how to conquer.

I was going to comment more, but I think that pretty much covers it.

so, wait, a "real" man is one who wants to be stuck supporting an incapable female who insists on only having procreative sex? or a "real" woman is one who expects males to support her and only have sex with her to produce the babies that she wants?

where i come from, we call males in such a situation "pussy-whipped." odd, how people can have such different definitions of manhood and womanhood.

Hmmm... You validated this with a response, which I suspect is far more than it deserved.

Here's a few things to keep in mind:

1. Attraction is an involuntary response. There is no logic behind it. You won't get rewarded for being "nice."

2. Dating is a numbers game.

3. Never take rejection personally. Let's say that you ask a girl out and she says "no." How do you take it?

Wrong way: "Oh man, I'm so embarassed. Once again, I've been shot down. What's wrong with me? Why don't girls like me? She's probably telling everyone right now that I asked her out and they're probably all laughing at me. That's what I get for thinking I had a shot. I won't try that again."

Right way: "She's not interested? Wow. How surprising. Well, at least now I won't have to waste anymore time on her and can concentrate on all the women who will like me."

Will this sort of thinking make you into an egotistical jerk? No. It will mean that womens' opinions of you aren't that important to you, and that's how you want to be. Be the sort of man who you want to be and don't seek validation from women. It's all a game; you're ego's not on the line.

4. Forget what you've been told by others; things won't change as you get older. Again, attraction is involuntary. Women don't stop punishing "nice" guys at any age. I'm 27, and, believe me, women in my age range, (22-30) are the same when it comes to who they're attracted to, for the most part, as girls your age.

5. Always pursue more than one girl at once. This way, you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket. If it's "do or die" with one girl, forget it; it'll never work.

6. Remember, when you ask a girl out, you aren't asking her for a favor, you're DOING her a favor. You don't really care whether she says "yes," or not; if she doesn't, you'll be surprised that she wouldn't want to take you up on such an awesome chance, but you won't be hurt, because there's plenty of girls that want you. She's nothing special. Be a little cocky. Be a little arrogant. But do so in a fun, humorous way. Will this make you into an "arrogant jerk." Maybe, but arrogant jerks get the girls. Besides, nobody's telling you to treat women badly. Just don't be such a wimp.

7. Be specific when asking her out. Don't say, "would you like to get together and do something sometime?" Do say, "I'd like to take you out to see (whatever movie) Friday night, and then we can stop and get something to eat at (whatever restaurant,) afterwards," or whatever. And make your intentions known from the start. You're pursuing a romance, not a friendship.

You're a good looking guy, so, for me, as a low-average looking guy, I don't want to hear you complaining that you can't get a woman. If I can get women using these principles, there's no reason why you can't. Apply some of the things that I've said, and you'll do just fine.

Wow, I feel inarticulate coming in next to you and trying to say the same thing, though I’d have to contend with you on one point. While attraction, physical, is involuntary the psychological reaction they attach to you afterwards is not. You could be a backstreet boy but if you slouch, worry about what to say and stutter you’ll make a bad impression. The reverse is true (to a point ugly is ugly). Smiles and confidence goes along way.

Or, alternatively... you could try treating women as if they were the same species as you are, rather than an alien race that you have to figure out how to conquer.

I was going to comment more, but I think that pretty much covers it.

Nothing I've said here is insulting or offensive, and nobody said that women are an "alien species." But it is a huge mistake to believe that men and women have the same specific wants and needs when it comes to dating. My post is really about empowering "nice guys" to be the sort of men they want to be.

Or, alternatively... you could try treating women as if they were the same species as you are, rather than an alien race that you have to figure out how to conquer.

I was going to comment more, but I think that pretty much covers it.

Now that’s unfair. How is any of that wrong?

It’s not like he’s advocated any degrading behavior, it is merely a tried and true method. Realistically the woman always has the right to say no, he’s merely advocating that you be a personable force so they will be less likely to say no.

Nothing I've said here is insulting or offensive, and nobody said that women are an "alien species." But it is a huge mistake to believe that men and women have the same specific wants and needs when it comes to dating. My post is really about empowering "nice guys" to be the sort of men they want to be.
What do you mean by "empowering" nice guys?

What do you mean by "empowering" nice guys?

Helping them to look at dating in new ways that will get them out of their romantic ruts.

What do you mean by "empowering" nice guys?

Making them think like utter jerks, apparently.

"Doing girls a favour" indeed. I envision drastic problems trying to jam an ego like that through the average sized doorway...

Helping them to look at dating in new ways that will get them out of their romantic ruts.
How about the method I'm using:

If she likes me, great! Let's persue it!

If she doesn't like me, fine. I'll just go back to my bachelor pad in the basement and wait for the next one.

BTW, I'm one of those "nice guys." A REALLY nice guy. :D

Now that’s unfair. How is any of that wrong?

It’s not like he’s advocated any degrading behavior, it is merely a tried and true method. Realistically the woman always has the right to say no, he’s merely advocating that you be a personable force so they will be less likely to say no.

Tried and true method.

That's my point... it's a 'method'... it's a 'trick', a 'scheme'...

Advice on hitting on many different women to 'increase your odds', on putting on a stage persona that will attract attention, on 'psychology' tricks that will enable you to manipulate in some fashion.

I will always hold that any amount of 'dating tricks', 'techniques' or 'sure-fire pick-up lines' are the evidence of a poor relationship with the opposite gender.

It ISN'T a hunt, or a war between sexes.

Helping them to look at dating in new ways that will get them out of their romantic ruts.

And, just maybe... that 'romantic rut' is the external manifestation of something about the person... and, rather than learning to relate to themselves, or dealing with their idiosyncracies, or learning how to actually relate to people... you propose a playstation-generation quick fix, that wallpapers over the cracks to gain a superficial conquest.

I would prefer honesty, and a true knowledge of self.

But, what the hell... maybe I'm the only one.

Tried and true method.

That's my point... it's a 'method'... it's a 'trick', a 'scheme'...

Advice on hitting on many different women to 'increase your odds', on putting on a stage persona that will attract attention, on 'psychology' tricks that will enable you to manipulate in some fashion.

I will always hold that any amount of 'dating tricks', 'techniques' or 'sure-fire pick-up lines' are the evidence of a poor relationship with the opposite gender.

It ISN'T a hunt, or a war between sexes.
bingo. any guy who is looking for a way to "get women" is obviously not mature enough to deserve one. women are not some homogeneous group, they are as varied as men are, and what works with one female will utterly fail with another. trying to find some magic trick that will get women to love you is a fantasy, and a boring one.

I would prefer honesty, and a true knowledge of self.

But, what the hell... maybe I'm the only one.
Nope, you're not.

No it is not a war between the sexes, though I am feeling awfully attacked.

Realistically it’s not done to manipulate its done to give yourself a fighting chance. I’ve never once advocated being something your not but pride is not a bad thing. Are you telling me that when you look for someone to ‘be’ with you’re looking for the ones without smiles, slouching and thinking about how they messed up the last time? Or are you looking for the one that you’ll hit it off with, have fun with and generally be attracted to. I’m sorry if I’ve come across badly here, and I can’t speak for Siaque, but it sounds to me like your advocating that men should not have an ego. Big egos yes, bad. Pride in themselves and their abilities, confidence that they will succeed will make anyone male or female a better person.

As for the assumption about poor relationships with the opposite gender, well I really could not tell you. My girlfriend who I celebrated our first anniversary with last month would be a better judge of that than I. Or perhaps some of my better friends, while they’re off limits to me I’m pretty sure at least half of them have vaginas.

I apologize again for the sarcastic wit but people who like to deflate egos for the sake of deflating bother me, now before I get blasted again may I ask, what’s wrong with a man having pride in himself?

bingo. any guy who is looking for a way to "get women" is obviously not mature enough to deserve one. women are not some homogeneous group, they are as varied as men are, and what works with one female will utterly fail with another. trying to find some magic trick that will get women to love you is a fantasy, and a boring one.

Ouch cold. I’m of the opinion that no human being should have to go through life not knowing the love of another. It’d be a sad and lonely existence that’d not end well.

And, just maybe... that 'romantic rut' is the external manifestation of something about the person... and, rather than learning to relate to themselves, or dealing with their idiosyncracies, or learning how to actually relate to people... you propose a playstation-generation quick fix, that wallpapers over the cracks to gain a superficial conquest.

I would prefer honesty, and a true knowledge of self.

But, what the hell... maybe I'm the only one.

Perhaps it is a superficial fix, perhaps not. Realistically how can you introspect with no frame of reference? As for not relating to people, is this not what the entire conversation is about?

I’m sorry but I don’t see this as a quick fix this is one of the better life philosophies in my opinion. If you are happy being subdued then all the power to you, you should be nothing if not happy. But you can’t possibly be advocating that you way is better for all people in all things, does that not smack of hypocrisy?

We merely suggested some things for someone who asked, what constructive advice did you offer him that he wasn’t doing already?

No it is not a war between the sexes, though I am feeling awfully attacked.

Realistically it’s not done to manipulate its done to give yourself a fighting chance. I’ve never once advocated being something your not but pride is not a bad thing. Are you telling me that when you look for someone to ‘be’ with you’re looking for the ones without smiles, slouching and thinking about how they messed up the last time? Or are you looking for the one that you’ll hit it off with, have fun with and generally be attracted to. I’m sorry if I’ve come across badly here, and I can’t speak for Siaque, but it sounds to me like your advocating that men should not have an ego. Big egos yes, bad. Pride in themselves and their abilities, confidence that they will succeed will make anyone male or female a better person.

As for the assumption about poor relationships with the opposite gender, well I really could not tell you. My girlfriend who I celebrated our first anniversary with last month would be a better judge of that than I. Or perhaps some of my better friends, while they’re off limits to me I’m pretty sure at least half of them have vaginas.

I apologize again for the sarcastic wit but people who like to deflate egos for the sake of deflating bother me, now before I get blasted again may I ask, what’s wrong with a man having pride in himself?

I am curious as to why you might feel attacked... when I was commenting to Siaque, until you joined in...

You are misunderstanding my point, I suspect.

Pride isn't the issue - this isn't a christian soapbox where I list of the seven 'deadly sins'. I, personally have nothing against pride, or ego. But, I think they must be backed up, with depth.

If you are talking about "smile, so the girls will like me", or some persona of "devil-may-care" to attract the ladies - then I cannot agree with your 'methods'... since that is what they are... they are stage-magic, designed to try to elicit a response. You could try crying, and say that your wife and child were killed in a car-wreck... see if you can get sympathy, and all that goes with it.... that is a 'trick' I have actually heard offered before.

Unless you are being absolutely honest, you are lying. Trite, but true.

You do come dangerously close to this realisation yourself... about how people want to be with people they get along with... but, for me, that is where these 'facades' will always come undone - because the person you convey with a 'dating technique' isn't the person you will actually be once your 'trick' works.

If they don't like you for the person you are when you are honest, then the person you are needs work.

Well, the nice guy thing seems to work fine for me. I am *always* very confident & like to think I am friendly, and I always try to show people their own good side.
I have not been single for more than two weeks straight out of the last two years. Every time a girl breaks up with me, another one has asked me out within a week or two (I have never dumped anyone unless they cheated on me).

It isnt just a matter of girls: its a matter of people. If you are confident & friendly, guys and girls will respect you.

Ouch cold. I’m of the opinion that no human being should have to go through life not knowing the love of another. It’d be a sad and lonely existence that’d not end well.


Nobody MUST go through life without knowing love. Some choose to, and some never learn how to interact in that way. Oh - and they ALL end the same way - one second you're alive, and the next.... game over.

That said - you are talking love, but advocating sex. If you are trying 'lines' on people, you are not looking for a 'relationship' based on anything - you are just looking to 'score'.


Perhaps it is a superficial fix, perhaps not. Realistically how can you introspect with no frame of reference? As for not relating to people, is this not what the entire conversation is about?

I’m sorry but I don’t see this as a quick fix this is one of the better life philosophies in my opinion. If you are happy being subdued then all the power to you, you should be nothing if not happy. But you can’t possibly be advocating that you way is better for all people in all things, does that not smack of hypocrisy?


You have your frame of reference. This sad fellow who starts the thread has his frame of reference. He says that 'nice girls don't like him', and that he can only score with 'slutty girls' - and, that should tell him things about himself.

Honestly, you just look at the way he describes his plight, and it is obvious where the root of the problem lies.

I wonder where you got the idea that I am 'subdued' from?

I disagree about the 'life philosophy' thing, unless you truly believe that advertising is better than a quality product. You are advocating 'brand' image, as applied to people - and, i think that, in the end, people are more attracted to a quality product than a nice wrapper.


We merely suggested some things for someone who asked, what constructive advice did you offer him that he wasn’t doing already?

Did you not read my replies earlier in the thread?

Wew I could type a handbook on this topic...

"The Nice Guy's Guide To Hating High School"

No but really, it get's a little better after high school. Not much, but a little. Don't worry though high school girls aren't even in their sexual prime yet, but you are, which is why you should be hitting on that lonely math teacher who keeps giving you detention for no reason.

Well, the nice guy thing seems to work fine for me. I am *always* very confident & like to think I am friendly, and I always try to show people their own good side.
I have not been single for more than two weeks straight out of the last two years. Every time a girl breaks up with me, another one has asked me out within a week or two (I have never dumped anyone unless they cheated on me).

It isnt just a matter of girls: its a matter of people. If you are confident & friendly, guys and girls will respect you.

Exactly. You are comfortable with you, and that flows out to other people. Being comfortable with 'me' makes me confident, and makes me a good mirror for other people.

And, here, once again - we see evidence of the root of success - the person who treats women like people is the person who has the most opportunity to treat them like people.

As the good doctor says: "I am at home with the me. I am rooted in the me who is on this adventure."

Well I felt attacked because I got the point out before Siaque, commented on how he wrote it better and reaffirmed my position as similar to his.

If you truly believe that I dropped the ball then you’re more than welcome to patronize me with small words and lots of reiteration.

Depth is very important I concur. But for the purposes of this circumstance I was under the impression that our original poster, the nice guy, had depth up the wazzzo. He needed some width. While depth is important without width you’re a crack. With no depth you’re a puddle. Oceans are both wide and deep and that’s where you want to be.

This point makes me think you are jaded against men who ‘might’ seem disingenuous. I empathize and hope he didn’t lead you on for to long but how can you suspect every man who fits a profile to be using ‘methods’ and ‘tricking’ you into something. Is this not cheating you out of something beautiful and doing the same to another human being?

I have not, for years, been dishonest. Period.

I pity the day you meet a man who is fun, charismatic, passionate, bold and all the things I’m advocating. Call me a pessimist but I’d be willing to lay money that he’s exactly your type beneath the surface. The universe has a way of ‘rewarding’ people who make up their minds about other people without trying to get to know them.

If you are never up front about the person you are you will never know if you need work. What I advocate is so much more honest that letting your loved one find out down the road that you have a horrible personal flaw that you’ve just never held in the limelight.

Hmmm... You validated this with a response, which I suspect is far more than it deserved.

Hmmm... Only yous guys can respond?

Well I felt attacked because I got the point out before Siaque, commented on how he wrote it better and reaffirmed my position as similar to his.

If you truly believe that I dropped the ball then you’re more than welcome to patronize me with small words and lots of reiteration.

Depth is very important I concur. But for the purposes of this circumstance I was under the impression that our original poster, the nice guy, had depth up the wazzzo. He needed some width. While depth is important without width you’re a crack. With no depth you’re a puddle. Oceans are both wide and deep and that’s where you want to be.

This point makes me think you are jaded against men who ‘might’ seem disingenuous. I empathize and hope he didn’t lead you on for to long but how can you suspect every man who fits a profile to be using ‘methods’ and ‘tricking’ you into something. Is this not cheating you out of something beautiful and doing the same to another human being?

I have not, for years, been dishonest. Period.

I pity the day you meet a man who is fun, charismatic, passionate, bold and all the things I’m advocating. Call me a pessimist but I’d be willing to lay money that he’s exactly your type beneath the surface. The universe has a way of ‘rewarding’ people who make up their minds about other people without trying to get to know them.

If you are never up front about the person you are you will never know if you need work. What I advocate is so much more honest that letting your loved one find out down the road that you have a horrible personal flaw that you’ve just never held in the limelight.

Grave is a guy. In fact, one of the few epitomes (can this actual be plural? or is it like 'first', where there's only one?) of the ideal nice guy that are around here.

If you want the respect of any girl worth anything, you'd do better to listen to what he says, rather than assuming you know better.

Well I felt attacked because I got the point out before Siaque, commented on how he wrote it better and reaffirmed my position as similar to his.

If you truly believe that I dropped the ball then you’re more than welcome to patronize me with small words and lots of reiteration.

Depth is very important I concur. But for the purposes of this circumstance I was under the impression that our original poster, the nice guy, had depth up the wazzzo. He needed some width. While depth is important without width you’re a crack. With no depth you’re a puddle. Oceans are both wide and deep and that’s where you want to be.

This point makes me think you are jaded against men who ‘might’ seem disingenuous. I empathize and hope he didn’t lead you on for to long but how can you suspect every man who fits a profile to be using ‘methods’ and ‘tricking’ you into something. Is this not cheating you out of something beautiful and doing the same to another human being?

I have not, for years, been dishonest. Period.

I pity the day you meet a man who is fun, charismatic, passionate, bold and all the things I’m advocating. Call me a pessimist but I’d be willing to lay money that he’s exactly your type beneath the surface. The universe has a way of ‘rewarding’ people who make up their minds about other people without trying to get to know them.

If you are never up front about the person you are you will never know if you need work. What I advocate is so much more honest that letting your loved one find out down the road that you have a horrible personal flaw that you’ve just never held in the limelight.

I am "a man who is fun, charismatic, passionate, bold".

I have never felt the need to pull the party 'tricks' people pull to get attention, I have never had to use 'lines' or create some phony persona.

I am comfortable with the person I am, and that seems to make me popular with people who actually know me, and I have many friends, spread out over half a world, of both genders and an assortment of races and creeds.

I purely advocate that honesty is always the best policy in relationships; that we are all people, regardless of the plumbing; and that 'lines' may get you a look, but not the undivided attention.

Lastly: you have basically reiterated my thread contribution for me: What I advocate is so much more honest that letting your loved one find out down the road that you have a horrible personal flaw that you’ve just never held in the limelight.

so, wait, a "real" man is one who wants to be stuck supporting an incapable female who insists on only having procreative sex? or a "real" woman is one who expects males to support her and only have sex with her to produce the babies that she wants?

where i come from, we call males in such a situation "pussy-whipped." odd, how people can have such different definitions of manhood and womanhood.

1. Those are your fantacies. Read my post, please.

2. By your twisted-sister understanding, the "pussy-whipped" must have deceived the world at least 6 billion times. How many points does your side have?

Grave is a guy. In fact, one of the few epitomes (can this actual be plural? or is it like 'first', where there's only one?) of the ideal nice guy that are around here.

If you want the respect of any girl worth anything, you'd do better to listen to what he says, rather than assuming you know better.

Why, thank you, Shaed.

It's always nice to know one is appreciated. :)

Hmmm... Only yous guys can respond?

Okay.

Was there some sense I was supposed to pick out of it?

Why, thank you, Shaed.

It's always nice to know one is appreciated. :)

I just wish those other guys would start taking notes. We need more people like you, not more people who think they know better than you.

I wonder how many random fan-girls they have? Ones attracted to them when they *aren't* putting on an act...

Not so many as you, I'm sure.

Nobody MUST go through life without knowing love. Some choose to, and some never learn how to interact in that way. Oh - and they ALL end the same way - one second you're alive, and the next.... game over.

Matter of opinion, and off topic so I won’t go there.

That said - you are talking love, but advocating sex. If you are trying 'lines' on people, you are not looking for a 'relationship' based on anything - you are just looking to 'score'.


When did I ever say lines? I was merely promoting a philosophy that allows a person to get to know you easier. While there is nothing wrong being introverted it is (albeit arguably) easier to meet, mingle and socialize practicing extrovert skils.


You have your frame of reference. This sad fellow who starts the thread has his frame of reference. He says that 'nice girls don't like him', and that he can only score with 'slutty girls' - and, that should tell him things about himself.


No, I meant for the purposes of personal introspection. While it might be interesting to stack my life beside his I have a few years on him and live a completely different lifestyle. Frame of reference for you, other people don’t matter until you let them.


I wonder where you got the idea that I am 'subdued' from?

No I wasn’t generalizing about that, I gained the impression somewhere that you’d prefer that guys not be forceful (personality wise)

I disagree about the 'life philosophy' thing, unless you truly believe that advertising is better than a quality product. You are advocating 'brand' image, as applied to people - and, i think that, in the end, people are more attracted to a quality product than a nice wrapper.

A distorted metaphor does little justice to what I’m saying. I am advocating personal power stemming from perseverance, self awareness and the want to be greater than the sum of your parts.

Did you not read my replies earlier in the thread?

No, and I don’t feel bad about that because this comment shows me you did not read my first one either.

Why, thank you, Shaed.

It's always nice to know one is appreciated. :)

For what it's worth, I appreciate you too, sexy.

Okay.

Was there some sense I was supposed to pick out of it?

No. It was only directed to the sensible.

I just wish those other guys would start taking notes. We need more people like you, not more people who think they know better than you.

I wonder how many random fan-girls they have? Ones attracted to them when they *aren't* putting on an act...

Not so many as you, I'm sure.

Ah, are there any pleasures sweeter than the honeyed words of Shaed?

Don't despair... I noticed one or two diamonds among all this 'rough'... it just seems that a lot of guys are looking for a shortcut to 'nice guy', so they don't have to go through the maturation required to become 'nice guys'.

;)

For what it's worth, I appreciate you too, sexy.

Hee, 's worth plenty.

No. It was only directed to the sensible.

And, you picked a forum about guys complaining they can't 'score' as the venue?

Curious.

Hee, 's worth plenty.

Not you, Grave. He's a hottie.

And, you picked a forum about guys complaining they can't 'score' as the venue?

Curious.
nicely done...

Not you, Grave. He's a hottie.

Bastard :p

Ah well, I still have my imaginary lesbian affair with Tink, and my teenage lust for Myrth (which may or may not be a carefully constructed act aiming to cause paranoia and consternation). Not to mention Grave.

So there ;)

Perhaps it’s the time of day and I’m over sensitive, but I have never felt the need to put on a show for a woman and I’m irked by the implication.

I was unawares of your personal circumstances, good for you’re the type of man I advocate people to be. Yet you don’t want to admit that you draw people to you with a magnetic personality and force of will. If you’re as great as stated then you fit my profile and are deluding yourself if you believe that if I ripped your passion and confidence out you’d’ve still done the things you’ve done.

The ONLY thing I was advocating to the original poster (can’t remember his name for the life of me) was to be, apparently, more like you. Confidence goes along way and if he has to pretend to be confident to actually find out that he has what it takes then fine, the ends justify the means in this case.

You are a grown man with a place in this world and a stable group of friends and by the sounds of it you’re doing all right for yourself. He’s a lonely high school kid who was looking for advice. I gave him some. Realistically the ‘method’ that works best is the one that each individual comes up with crafted to their being, I offered mine because it’s a good lead into what ever else he wants.

Ah, are there any pleasures sweeter than the honeyed words of Shaed?

Don't despair... I noticed one or two diamonds among all this 'rough'... it just seems that a lot of guys are looking for a shortcut to 'nice guy', so they don't have to go through the maturation required to become 'nice guys'.

;)

"Nice guys", with the willing (mostly) help of "nice gals" have created 6 billion CHILDREN (sorry to use a word that offends you) in the last 50 years. You seen (fortunately) to be at the end of your gene dump.

And, you picked a forum about guys complaining they can't 'score' as the venue?

Curious.

I see why you are "IDLE". I have grandchildren. Get it together, or you are the last of your ancestry.

The ONLY thing I was advocating to the original poster (can’t remember his name for the life of me) was to be, apparently, more like you. Confidence goes along way and if he has to pretend to be confident to actually find out that he has what it takes then fine, the ends justify the means in this case.

You are a grown man with a place in this world and a stable group of friends and by the sounds of it you’re doing all right for yourself. He’s a lonely high school kid who was looking for advice. I gave him some. Realistically the ‘method’ that works best is the one that each individual comes up with crafted to their being, I offered mine because it’s a good lead into what ever else he wants.
I think you missed his point. You are still talkibng about "ends justifies the means" and "method"s. His point was that it is not a method and the end doesn't justify the means. The point is to be yourself and not play a part, not have a "method". That way when a relationship comes along it will be based on reality and real attraction and will have some chance of lasting.

"Nice guys", with the willing (mostly) help of "nice gals" have created 6 billion CHILDREN (sorry to use a word that offends you) in the last 50 years. You seen (fortunately) to be at the end of your gene dump.

You know... being banned... tends to suggest that you aren't... all that welcome.

Why bother coming back here? Are you that desperate that you can't find another forum to troll?

I see why you are "IDLE". I have grandchildren. Get it together, or you are the last of your ancestry.


You have grandchildren? I find it amazing that one so ignorant as you can even procreate. You really think nice guys are the only one's out there reproducing?

Not you, Grave. He's a hottie.

Hey, I didn't want to be the one to say it...

But, hot though I undoubtedly am... wouldn't such praise truly have been more deserved if sent in the direction of Her Shaed-ness?

;)

I think you missed his point. You are still talkibng about "ends justifies the means" and "method"s. His point was that it is not a method and the end doesn't justify the means. The point is to be yourself and not play a part, not have a "method". That way when a relationship comes along it will be based on reality and real attraction and will have some chance of lasting.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

And I have tried....

:)

You know... being banned... tends to suggest that you aren't... all that welcome.

Why bother coming back here? Are you that desperate that you can't find another forum to troll?

1. One can only be banned for a reason, not an opinion.

2. Welcomeness is in the eye of the beholder, and you may be in the minority.

3. I dealt with the "MotorTroll" earlier today. He went back to his cave.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

And I have tried....

:)
I think quite a few of us have over the last few days. :headbang:

1. One can only be banned for a reason, not an opinion.

2. Welcomeness is in the eye of the beholder, and you may be in the minority.

3. I dealt with the "MotorTroll" earlier today. He went back to his cave.

So you weren't banned? Or you just don't think the ban counts for some reason?

"Nice guys", with the willing (mostly) help of "nice gals" have created 6 billion CHILDREN (sorry to use a word that offends you) in the last 50 years. You seen (fortunately) to be at the end of your gene dump.

Wow... I think some of this is in words I can translate...

So - the 'nice guys' have managed to generate 6 billion children... which nice guys? Which 6 billion children? You are aware that the current world population stands close to 6 billion, yes? So - including those born more than 50 years ago, and allowing for infant mortality, I suspect the figure of actual births must have been far higher.

And, you say it like fathering children is some kind of achievement. Because, we all know that the average guy is really suffering through the (last estimate average I recall) 3 minutes of 'work' he has to put in, right?

What was the comment about my genes? I don't really get where you are going... where you saying that I need to use some 'tricks' to ensure my genetic heritage?

Anyway - Way to stay on topic! Here's to you!!!

make sure not to form any emotional attachment!!! so when it's over, she's the one crying
lol
you'll have better luck with the ladies, it's called college

1. One can only be banned for a reason, not an opinion.

2. Welcomeness is in the eye of the beholder, and you may be in the minority.

3. I dealt with the "MotorTroll" earlier today. He went back to his cave.

I think you're missing the point. Let me break it down for you.

1. You are an ass.

2. No one likes you.

3. Go away.

So you weren't banned? Or you just don't think the ban counts for some reason?

Some people have voices that are much deeper than their capacity to support them.

I suspect that our erstwhile friend feels that he/she has a guaranteed freedom of speech - and intends to exert that 'right' even within the confines of a controlled-environment (Like NS) - which will make it that much more of a surprise when they block his/her IP.

I think you're missing the point. Let me break it down for you.

1. You are an ass.

2. No one likes you.

3. Go away.

Now, now... that's harsh... I like blinderliberals. I think he/she is very entertaining.

I like monkeys, too. They act almost human, don't you think?

I think you missed his point. You are still talkibng about "ends justifies the means" and "method"s. His point was that it is not a method and the end doesn't justify the means. The point is to be yourself and not play a part, not have a "method". That way when a relationship comes along it will be based on reality and real attraction and will have some chance of lasting.

*bangs head against wall*

Jumping Jezuz Lord Love a duck.


Okay.
.
.
I don’t want anyone to misrepresent themselves. I can’t speak for anyone else but I feel that no matter how much immediate bad there may be for telling the truth there is always a greater payout down the road.

The reason I suggested that the ends might justify the means is because I believe that confidence is something that everyone should have. If the Original Poster needed to act confident to see that he has nothing to worry about then the result would be positive for a negative action. Once you have REAL confidence its no longer about picking up, its about having fun and possibly sharing that with someone. REAL confidence allows you to act, no let me rephrase, BE true to your nature. If someone cannot stand in front of another person, man or woman, and tell that what they feel than they will be worse of because of it. So this person needs to take steps to gain confidence.

The only ‘method’ I prescribe is one to gain confidence. I don’t want them to have a ‘method’ for women as there is no ‘method’ for women. There is however a method for confidence which will get you women by virtue of being more confident.

As for the part of playing a role I believe Graves mentioned it earlier, but it’s the difference between love and sex. The Original Poster didn’t seem to want to get laid so he doesn’t need a ‘method’. He wanted a relationship, which is more easily fostered with confidence. And there is a method to gain confidence, or more precisely bring out the stuff that’s already there.

*bangs head against wall*

Jumping Jezuz Lord Love a duck.
I think that is the clearest you have stated your position and it comes accross very differently than the last few. You were giving the impression of being a chat up line merchant, but what you say here is different so fair enough.

*bangs head against wall*

Jumping Jezuz Lord Love a duck.


Okay.
.
.
I don’t want anyone to misrepresent themselves. I can’t speak for anyone else but I feel that no matter how much immediate bad there may be for telling the truth there is always a greater payout down the road.

The reason I suggested that the ends might justify the means is because I believe that confidence is something that everyone should have. If the Original Poster needed to act confident to see that he has nothing to worry about then the result would be positive for a negative action. Once you have REAL confidence its no longer about picking up, its about having fun and possibly sharing that with someone. REAL confidence allows you to act, no let me rephrase, BE true to your nature. If someone cannot stand in front of another person, man or woman, and tell that what they feel than they will be worse of because of it. So this person needs to take steps to gain confidence.

The only ‘method’ I prescribe is one to gain confidence. I don’t want them to have a ‘method’ for women as there is no ‘method’ for women. There is however a method for confidence which will get you women by virtue of being more confident.

As for the part of playing a role I believe Graves mentioned it earlier, but it’s the difference between love and sex. The Original Poster didn’t seem to want to get laid so he doesn’t need a ‘method’. He wanted a relationship, which is more easily fostered with confidence. And there is a method to gain confidence, or more precisely bring out the stuff that’s already there.

Yet, you were supporting Siaque's perspective... which, if you care to go re-read it thoroughly - bears little resemblance to what you are describing here.

And the Original Poster does want a relationship... wants one desperately - and that is going to remain his undoing... this is still ultimately a matter of conquest. He has his 'relationship' in mind, in the same way that the average 'jock' (or Townie, where I come from) has his evening conquest envisioned - and with about as much 'depth' behind it.

What the OP should do, is give it up. Allow stuff to happen in it's own time. Try to be just friends with people, men and women - and learn what it is like to be with other people (men and women).

Overall, I agree with you - it is largely about confidence. People LIKE confidence. But, I still disagree with you on a fundamental level, because I have these nagging reservations about people 'acting' some way to 'score' - whether that payoff is a one-night-stand, or a proposal of marriage.

Beware, the truth will find you out. Always.

Beware, the truth will find you out. Always.
Likewise, the Force will be with you. Always.

First off, here are some pictures of me:

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124201

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124202

Not bad, right?

Anyway, I cannot form a relationship with any non-slutty girls, because I'm too nice. I always get the same response, "Ryan, you're the sweetest guy I've ever met, but I'm not good with relationships. I don't want to hurt you." Then they always go for the jerk, because they aren't afraid of hurting his feelings.

In conclusion, don't be a nice guy, because it will get you nowhere with women.

To Ryan and all the others whining about how the girls aren't interested, it is not because you are too nice.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret that "nice guys" seem to forget. Girls like confidence. That's why jerks get girls, as they are confident or at least project an image of confidence. Confidence tends to equal security, hence the interest in confident people.

Ryan, by putting your images up you are saying "Look at me! I'm not ugly! It's not my fault!" You want people to sympathize with you and say you aren't bad. Your self confidence is low and women can sense that, whether it's consciously or subconsciously. There may be a correlation between them sensing your obvious lack of confidence and saying they don't want you to get hurt.

Of course, their comment may be based in a desire for you to fight to "win over" their affection. Either way, it all boils down to self confidence which you seem to lack.

In conclusion, don't be insecure, because it will get you nowhere with women.

Sorry my friend. You're not the first to say this in this thread, but it is an awful lot to wade through to find that out...

I agree completely. Arrogant assholes who are sure of themselves are a lot easier to be around, even if they're frustrating sometimes. Insecure guys are never sure of themselves, and chix0rs tend to think, "well geez if i'm gonna have to keep telling him 'no, it's okay you're fine i DO like you i PROMISE' what's the effing point?"

wonkwonk. LOTS of chicks really are dumb though, and there are a few somewhat-sane ones out there. I remember one chick who had the sweetest guy ever and she kept going on and on about this skater moron who was hitting on her. I just wanted to shake her and be like you crazy mofoooo!!! so yeah. chicks are dumb but if you're patient, uh, you'll probably (maybe, possibly) find a decent one if you look in the nooks and crannies

No it is not a war between the sexes, though I am feeling awfully attacked.

Realistically it’s not done to manipulate its done to give yourself a fighting chance.


Personally, I kind of gave myself a fighting chance by going through an agonizing period of highly uncomfortable self criticism that, after about 2 years, let me finally realise that my virtues were not really virtues and my failings (with a few exceptions) were not really failings, they were just different aspects of my personality. I also avoided getting involved with anyone during that time because I felt that it would at best be a way out and at worst would most likely backfire horribly.

I came out of this no longer hating myself for my "failings" (well, not most of them) or hating others for not seeing my "virtues" but instead seeing that people of all sexes (for you transgenders out there) were different and that if I wasn't interested in those who couldn't relate to me, I could hardly blame others for feeling the same.

When I then went through another year of being alone it didn't bother me so much. Partly because I didn't have the doubt anymore, I knew what kind of person I felt would be right for me because I knew who I was, and partly because I just didn't feel the need to be completed anymore. And when I did find someone I felt that they were right. Before I had believed it, this time I just felt it. So far my instinct's proved exactly on the money.

But, hey, if "being the sort of man you want to be" in order to get girls to say yes works for some people, then they should go for it. Maybe they'll meet a girl just like them. Hmm, actually, just think about the ramifications of that for a second...


I’ve never once advocated being something your not but pride is not a bad thing. Are you telling me that when you look for someone to ‘be’ with you’re looking for the ones without smiles, slouching and thinking about how they messed up the last time? Or are you looking for the one that you’ll hit it off with, have fun with and generally be attracted to. I’m sorry if I’ve come across badly here, and I can’t speak for Siaque, but it sounds to me like your advocating that men should not have an ego. Big egos yes, bad.


Having an ego's not a bad thing, sometimes. Trying to make yourself have one, on the other hand...


Pride in themselves and their abilities, confidence that they will succeed will make anyone male or female a better person.


Unless they're failing and just can't see it.

I was unawares of your personal circumstances, good for you’re the type of man I advocate people to be. Yet you don’t want to admit that you draw people to you with a magnetic personality and force of will. If you’re as great as stated then you fit my profile and are deluding yourself if you believe that if I ripped your passion and confidence out you’d’ve still done the things you’ve done.

The ONLY thing I was advocating to the original poster (can’t remember his name for the life of me) was to be, apparently, more like you. Confidence goes along way and if he has to pretend to be confident to actually find out that he has what it takes then fine, the ends justify the means in this case.


I can't speak for Grave but from my own experience if you want to have confidence in yourself and also be able to treat others with respect here's a tip, you won't wake up with it tomorrow. And the journey won't necessarily be pretty.

Personally, I kind of gave myself a fighting chance by going through an agonizing period of highly uncomfortable self criticism that, after about 2 years, let me finally realise that my virtues were not really virtues and my failings (with a few exceptions) were not really failings, they were just different aspects of my personality. I also avoided getting involved with anyone during that time because I felt that it would at best be a way out and at worst would most likely backfire horribly.

I came out of this no longer hating myself for my "failings" (well, not most of them) or hating others for not seeing my "virtues" but instead seeing that people of all sexes (for you transgenders out there) were different and that if I wasn't interested in those who couldn't relate to me, I could hardly blame others for feeling the same.

When I then went through another year of being alone it didn't bother me so much. Partly because I didn't have the doubt anymore, I knew what kind of person I felt would be right for me because I knew who I was, and partly because I just didn't feel the need to be completed anymore. And when I did find someone I felt that they were right. Before I had believed it, this time I just felt it. So far my instinct's proved exactly on the money.

But, hey, if "being the sort of man you want to be" in order to get girls to say yes works for some people, then go for it. Maybe you'll meet a girl just like you. Hmm, actually, just think about the ramifications of that for a second...

Having an ego's not a bad thing, sometimes. Trying to make yourself have one, on the other hand...

Unless they're failing and just can't see it.

Excellent post, hats off to Stripe-lovers. *Applause*

Golden words, there - especially the "didn't feel the need to be completed anymore" part. I have known so many people who crashed from one short relationship to another, never realising that they were looking for someone to fulfill some role, because THEY had never learned to be happy with with the person they were.

Not that you'll ever read this,as there are tons of other posts, but...............

PLease, please don't give up and turn into the kind of guy that we all hate. Sadly, I think this is exactly how guys turn into the awful men that make up 90% of males. They start out nice, get hurt too many times by immature girls, who for whatever reason pick the guy their parents hate. I did it too, picking the wrong guy that is, and I learned. Problem is...once you learn, the nice guys who were once there are not anymore. Keep hanging in there for when the girls wise up. ( Easier said than done. ) This usually happens out of High School, sometimes college. OR jump ahead and look for older girls.
Good Luck, it's a rough nasty world sometimes. But when you finally find her, it'll make everythingelse you went thru worth it :)

I can't speak for Grave but from my own experience if you want to have confidence in yourself and also be able to treat others with respect here's a tip, you won't wake up with it tomorrow. And the journey won't necessarily be pretty.

This is true.

Some people come naturally to confidence... some people have to reach some key point in their life.

The problem with 'faking' confidence (acting confident, whatever) is that truly confident people will see through it, maybe instantly, maybe you've got a little breathing room.

Perhaps this is the original posters problem? Maybe he has tried to 'act' confident - and is being immediately seen-through by the 'nice girls', but is a compelling image to those who lack confidence (i.e. those that are desperate for any attention to validate themselves... perhaps that is what he meant by 'slutty girls'.).

PLease, please don't give up and turn into the kind of guy that we all hate. Sadly, I think this is exactly how guys turn into the awful men that make up 90% of males. They start out nice, get hurt too many times by immature girls, who for whatever reason pick the guy their parents hate.

I raise my glass to you!!

Two types of XY Chromosome that will end up rejected 98% of the time:

1: "Nobody likes me. Do you really like me? Wow. That's so weird, because I never have faith in myself since Britney dumped me in the 7th grade. I can't believe you really have interest in me, which is why every night I'm going to make you explain to me 5 times that you do care until you're fed up and end up leaving. Then I'll feel even worse. :( "

2. "Hey babes, yeah I no u like this right here. I'm not surprised you have a thing for me. Everyone does. But you're special because I really like you. Feel priviliged, hun, b/c u got sommin speshul right here, ya dig? let's make mouth whoopy. :fluffle: "

OH GAWD!! Find somewhere in between and you'll PROBABLY be alright !

Sorry my friend. You're not the first to say this in this thread, but it is an awful lot to wade through to find that out...

My thoughts exactly. I do not have the patience to read the entire thread. Besides, it may help the concept sink in better.

My thoughts exactly. I do not have the patience to read the entire thread. Besides, it may help the concept sink in better.
I didn't agree with you mind, but then you'd have to go back through the last few pages to see that and I haven't the energy to say it all again...

We all have to wait, don't conform to being a male schauvanistic pig, no one wants that. Trust me. Good boys are needed all around the world.

Do you know why women are always complaining about guys being insensitive/chauvanistic/lecherous? Because it's the only kind of guy that they'll go out with. Women have as much of a tendency to mistake vice for merit as men have to overlook vice for looks.

Women are attracted to money but will be more attracted to a poor man who spends flagrently than a rich man who invests wisley. The former LOOKS richer.

Women are attracted to performance, but will be more attracted to an incompotent failure who is too arrogant and clueless to realize his status than an overachiever who isn't satisfied with his performance. The former LOOKS more succesful and confident.

Women are attracted to courage but will be just as attracted to a reckless daredevil as they are to a firefighter, and once she is in a relationship with either of them she will spend all of her time trying to get him to quit.

This is just like men being attracted to large boobs but being just as attracted to small boobs with big bags of saline in them.

Not that they're being dishonest, just hardly any of them know what they want. Plenty of women say that they think a guy looks skuzzy when he doesn't shave, yet see how giddy she gets when her boyfriend forgets to shave for a couple of days.

You can't pay attention to anything women say if you want to figure out what they're after. They lie to themselves far more than they ever could to you.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret that "nice guys" seem to forget. Girls like confidence. That's why jerks get girls, as they are confident or at least project an image of confidence. Confidence tends to equal security, hence the interest in confident people.

That is - to the best of my knowledge - so very true. HOWEVER, and I beg girls on this forum to enlighten us further, why the inly signs of self confidence that a girl/woman is able to notice are in the form of desiconsidering women and treating them like shit?

Why being nice and helpful and not rushing into bed tells a woman you lack self confidence? Why the fuck listening to her instead of puting your hand in her pants tells a woman that you lack self confidence?

Please tell me why only guys who turn out to be perfect jerks inspire selfconfidence to women?

That is - to the best of my knowledge - so very true. HOWEVER, and I beg girls on this forum to enlighten us further, why the inly signs of self confidence that a girl/woman is able to notice are in the form of desiconsidering women and treating them like shit?

Why being nice and helpful and not rushing into bed tells a woman you lack self confidence? Why the fuck listening to her instead of puting your hand in her pants tells a woman that you lack self confidence?

Please tell me why only guys who turn out to be perfect jerks inspire selfconfidence to women?

Not still talking about this flagrant homosexual?

Perhaps his motives and/or rationale are skewed, I won’t jump ship as yet, but the end result is the same. I can see, in this context, why you didn’t take kindly to my point about the ends justifying the means.

I guess realistically it all boils down to intent and the will to see it through. If your intent is to get a relationship perhaps you need to examine your motives for seeking that. A solid relationship should not be built on the desire for a relationship but a desire to be with that person. Perhaps the problem with the OP is that he wants the relationship for the sake of the relationship, and not for any reason deeper than that. Hmm. Perhaps introspection into why he feels lonely without a relationship is needed. While I do advocate confidence, to an extreme, I also advocate self reliance and this thought pattern is contrary to that; A note to the OP, if you cannot be happy alone then how will you react if something happens where SHE needs YOUR support and not vice versa. If you are not strong enough to support yourself then how can you live and love for two?

I will not understate the importance of confidence, ever. But I am willing to concede that it is merely a vehicle to achieve your goals. Confidence is not the be all and end all but surely you can see that it is a common characteristic in successful people. Whether they are romantically, politically or careerist wise based it is an important vehicle.

Reading back this does look like a bit of a waffle but I assure you it is not. It is merely the exposure of the depth of my position. I blame the lack of sleep (going on 25hrs woot!)

"Women do not like nice guys."

If the above statement were true (based on clear definitions of "nice guys"...and "women"), then wouldn't the opposite also be true?

"Women like evil bastards."

I present myself as confounding evidence to the second statement. I am pure, unadulterated evil and I can be quite vicious at times. However, the only female ever to show any interest in me whatsoever is my current (and decided) life partner whom I am certain I have done nothing to deserve. Absolutely nothing.

"Women do not like nice guys."

If the above statement were true (based on clear definitions of "nice guys"...and "women"), then wouldn't the opposite also be true?

"Women like evil bastards."

I present myself as confounding evidence to the second statement. I am pure, unadulterated evil and I can be quite vicious at times. However, the only female ever to show any interest in me whatsoever is my current (and decided) life partner whom I am certain I have done nothing to deserve. Absolutely nothing.

The problem is that the opposite of "nice guys" would be "mean girls." Women like mean girls. See? There's your problem. Wrong gender.

The problem is that the opposite of "nice guys" would be "mean girls." Women like mean girls. See? There's your problem. Wrong gender.

Maybe all women are bisexual too. We'll never know.

all women are not alike.

Some women are drawn to assholes.

Some women are drawn to nice guys.

MOST women are looking for something in-between. okaay?

:headbang:

well, spend 10 minutes watching The Mask and you woulda figured this out already

"Women do not like nice guys."

If the above statement were true (based on clear definitions of "nice guys"...and "women"), then wouldn't the opposite also be true?

"Women like evil bastards."

I present myself as confounding evidence to the second statement. I am pure, unadulterated evil and I can be quite vicious at times. However, the only female ever to show any interest in me whatsoever is my current (and decided) life partner whom I am certain I have done nothing to deserve. Absolutely nothing.
Glad that even you have found happiness then :)

Well kiddo, you have just spouted a complaint said by many "nice" guys.

Don't worry about it. Girls your age don't know what they hell they want either.

Figure out who you are and what you are about?

Become passionate about something.

Girls really dig a confident passionate man.

Don't always chase looks. I dated exceptionly hot women in my time and I look back and think many were only good for sex.

My saintly aunt gave the best advice. Keep in mind this is for when you want a perminant relationship. "Don't chase only looks because those will fail in time. However, a passionate soul that makes you laugh will last forever."

I screwed up with two extreamly fasinating and dynamic women. They were plain and I blew it with one because I was an ass and I lost the other one because of racsim(She was black and her family went balistic at the thought of her dating a whitey).

Finally stop fretting about it.

Get a lust for life. Screw up and make mistakes. Don't be afraid of regret.

It's our regrets in life that give us our character.

-----------------------
Last note: Many find love when they aren't looking for it. I found my wife when I tried to pick up her roomate. She is the best thing that every happened to me.

wow your aunt is one perceptive lady! and its not only guys that this advice would apply to...

6. Remember, when you ask a girl out, you aren't asking her for a favor, you're DOING her a favor. You don't really care whether she says "yes," or not; if she doesn't, you'll be surprised that she wouldn't want to take you up on such an awesome chance, but you won't be hurt, because there's plenty of girls that want you. She's nothing special. Be a little cocky. Be a little arrogant. But do so in a fun, humorous way. Will this make you into an "arrogant jerk." Maybe, but arrogant jerks get the girls. Besides, nobody's telling you to treat women badly. Just don't be such a wimp.

Pay attention Ryania. We have a winner.

Making them think like utter jerks, apparently.

"Doing girls a favour" indeed. I envision drastic problems trying to jam an ego like that through the average sized doorway...
Right, so if they're nice and passive, they're "boring". If they're assertive and confident, they're "arrogant". Can we ever win?

Right, so if they're nice and passive, they're "boring". If they're assertive and confident, they're "arrogant". Can we ever win?

No.

We are the boys! Boys have got feelings too!

*ahem*

Sorry, I don't know what came over me there.

During my adolescent years I decided that I wasn't interested in "dating" nor was I in a hurry to lose my virginity. There were far more important things to worry about.

Why the fuck listening to her instead of puting your hand in her pants tells a woman that you lack self confidence?

maybe that's where you're going wrong? girls like to be fiddled with too :cool:

Women see nice guys as needy and/or desperate:headbang:, no one wants to be in a relationship with someone like that and so they just remain friends. Don't worry about it, you'll find someone and if it makes you feel any better I'm 21 and have never had a girlfriend (but its not for a lack of trying!!!). I just comes down to knowing that there is someone out there for you somewhere and just being patient.

Hopefully this little post will give some hope to the nice guys out there...

I am a reformed "Bad Girl". How was I reformed you ask? Well this sweet, intelligent man took the time to see me as more then the persona i was projecting... He is most definately one of the 'nice guys'... and let's face it before him I went for the "dangerous" types. Are those guys any better? No not really, actually worse when it comes to honest to god relationships and in the end that is what i wanted... So.... I have a nice guy... who showed me I can be me without fearing for my emotional health.... was it easy for him? I do not think so, I am sure I still give him moments where he would like to strangle me... I am very flirtatious at times...and incredibly independent, but he knows he is the one I come home to... He did not have to do anything to 'tame' me other then be who he is... I am the luckiest woman in this planet to have him and cannot wait to be his wife...

So what is the point you ask?
You will one day find a woman that appriciates the "niceness" it may take a little work and a bit of understanding, but she is out there and when you find her she will move heaven and earth for you because you are who you are....

I hate to say it, but it's just true. Women don't go for nice guys. They always go for the assholes who treat them like shit and, more often than not, already have girlfriends in the first place.
This is why most women have the thought that all men are assholes, because they only go for the assholes.

Yet, you were supporting Siaque's perspective... which, if you care to go re-read it thoroughly - bears little resemblance to what you are describing here.

And the Original Poster does want a relationship... wants one desperately - and that is going to remain his undoing... this is still ultimately a matter of conquest. He has his 'relationship' in mind, in the same way that the average 'jock' (or Townie, where I come from) has his evening conquest envisioned - and with about as much 'depth' behind it.

What the OP should do, is give it up. Allow stuff to happen in it's own time. Try to be just friends with people, men and women - and learn what it is like to be with other people (men and women).

Overall, I agree with you - it is largely about confidence. People LIKE confidence. But, I still disagree with you on a fundamental level, because I have these nagging reservations about people 'acting' some way to 'score' - whether that payoff is a one-night-stand, or a proposal of marriage.

Beware, the truth will find you out. Always.

You know, Grave, I'd like to know what SPECIFICALLY I said in my post which you disagree with. You seem to have a sort of knee jerk reaction to what you percieve, (incorrectly, it seems) my overall message to be, but what specifically did I say that you disagree with? Reread my post. What offensive thing did I say there.

Perhaps you believe that people should take rejection personally, and should spiral into a suicidal depression anytime they get turned down.

Or, perhaps you believe that people SHOULD get their validation from the opposite sex.

Or, maybe you think that people should beg and grovel for dates.

The only things that I can see may be controversial is when I told guys to be a little cocky and a little arrogant, and when I advocated pursuing more than one woman at once.

Firstly, I'm talking about the initial stages of dating when I advocate "playing the field," not when in a commited relationship. I'm talking about having an attitude of confidence no matter who you are, believing in yourself whether you are a nerd or a jock; blue collar or white collar; biker or cowboy; whatever. I AM talking about "being yourself" and LIKING yourself and believing that you have something to offer the opposite sex. I'm not talking about "magic" tricks. I'm talking about certain behaviors and actions that are appropriate and useful to the situation of dating, just as certain behaviors and actions are appropriate and useful in almost every area of life. I'm not telling people to put on a big act and try to be something they are not; I'm merely giving people a certain perspective on dating.

I spent the first TWENTY FOUR years of my life basically alone and lonely. alternately thinking that I just wasn't good looking enough, or that I had some other fundamental flaw, and believing that if I just "hung in there," and kept "being myself," eventually, I would find someone. In those rare instances when I was dating someone, I instantly became Mr. Perfect Boyfriend and began to shower her with gifts and love notes and poems. Naturally, this scared her off.

Then I changed the way I looked at dating, and my life has been far better. I've met and dated far more women and I'm far happier and more confident. Is there something wrong with that? Should I go back to the way that I used to be?

Wow, I feel inarticulate coming in next to you and trying to say the same thing, though I’d have to contend with you on one point. While attraction, physical, is involuntary the psychological reaction they attach to you afterwards is not. You could be a backstreet boy but if you slouch, worry about what to say and stutter you’ll make a bad impression. The reverse is true (to a point ugly is ugly). Smiles and confidence goes along way.

Actually, Nova Hope, you said it pretty well in your post, as well. Thank you.

I spent the first TWENTY FOUR years of my life basically alone and lonely. alternately thinking that I just wasn't good looking enough, or that I had some other fundamental flaw, and believing that if I just "hung in there," and kept "being myself," eventually, I would find someone. In those rare instances when I was dating someone, I instantly became Mr. Perfect Boyfriend and began to shower her with gifts and love notes and poems. Naturally, this scared her off.

Then I changed the way I looked at dating, and my life has been far better.

What about changing the way you looked at yourself? Or actually changing yourself?

Anyone else think that this thread has become a wee bit hostile?

Anyone else think that this thread has become a wee bit hostile?
yeah, its a mirror of the thread starters high school.

yeah, its a mirror of the thread starters high school.

Ryan is the thread starter...lol

Excellent post, hats off to Stripe-lovers. *Applause*


Can I keep the hat?

Anyone else think that this thread has become a wee bit hostile?

Yeah, and I'll put my hands up on that score. Apologies, but I really don't agree with certain actions advocated or certain justifications offered.

Strangely enough I noticed it changed immediately after the heartless bitches article was mentioned...

What about changing the way you looked at yourself? Or actually changing yourself?

Success changed the way that I looked at myself. But the reason why I didn't actually "change myself" is that there really wasn't anything wrong with me, except my confidence. I don't believe in trying to be someone you're not.

"Women do not like nice guys."

If the above statement were true (based on clear definitions of "nice guys"...and "women"), then wouldn't the opposite also be true?

"Women like evil bastards."

I present myself as confounding evidence to the second statement. I am pure, unadulterated evil and I can be quite vicious at times. However, the only female ever to show any interest in me whatsoever is my current (and decided) life partner whom I am certain I have done nothing to deserve. Absolutely nothing.

Man, what about your poor innocent fangirls? Don't we count for anything? I mean, the fangirl-ness is total based on your evil bastardness.

I feel so unloved :(

Success changed the way that I looked at myself. But the reason why I didn't actually "change myself" is that there really wasn't anything wrong with me, except my confidence. I don't believe in trying to be someone you're not.

So... it wasn't you that was wrong. It was every girl you approached that was wrong. I like that logic.

"No one will hire me! It's not because I have no skills, it's because they only like bad employees! Yeah!"

If you got confidence for the *sole* reason of getting girls, that's sick. If you got it because you realised you had nothing to make you not confident, that's fine.

But you're advice was 'get confidence so you can get girls'. And that's just disgusting. If I found out any guy I knew was acting like that, I'd not only not date him, but I'd want absolutely nothing to do with him.

Right, so if they're nice and passive, they're "boring". If they're assertive and confident, they're "arrogant". Can we ever win?

I see 'assertive' as 'jerk-like'. If a guy is desperately trying to act confident to get my attention, I would be turned off faster than I could even express. And I see 'passive' as 'invisible'. If they don't get out and meet me, how the hell am I meant to know them?

Nice and confident are totally unconnected. Nice means not talking to me in the hopes that I'll go out with you, and having a similar set of morals as me. Confident involves being able to talk to me without having to agree with every word I say, and being able to tell me if *I'm* being a jerk.

The problem is, you were advocating 'assertive'ness (in the sense of 'look at me! I'm confident! Go out with me now!) along with confidence.

Confidence gained soley to get a relationship is just as pathetic as crawling to a girl on your knees and begging her to like you. Huge, huge turn off.

The best thing to do is to not give a damn about getting a relationship. Act like you do around people you aren't trying to impress. Girls can pick up on when you're trying to get their attention as a potential girlfriend, and most are turned off by that - it comes across as weak and pathetic.

The best thing to do is to not give a damn about getting a relationship. Act like you do around people you aren't trying to impress. Girls can pick up on when you're trying to get their attention as a potential girlfriend, and most are turned off by that - it comes across as weak and pathetic.


It was really only after the breakup of my first serious ( more than a year long) relationship that I came to understand, and be led to a sort of unshakeable confidence and 'disinterest' with girls and relationships.

It is almost as though it takes the experience (or did for me) that in spite of all the anxiety and worry that can accomply dealings with the opposite sex, it cant *really* kill you and a broken heart isnt honestly the end of the world.

In my experience, it was this learned-the-hard-way understanding that removed all apprehensiveness with the 'fairer sex'.

I dont know what sort of help this 'advice' would be, since I dont know that anything but experience can strip the idea of relationships of its mysterious, romanticized ideal.

Absent that ideal, it really isnt worth worrying about.

So... it wasn't you that was wrong. It was every girl you approached that was wrong. I like that logic.

"No one will hire me! It's not because I have no skills, it's because they only like bad employees! Yeah!"

If you got confidence for the *sole* reason of getting girls, that's sick. If you got it because you realised you had nothing to make you not confident, that's fine.

But you're advice was 'get confidence so you can get girls'. And that's just disgusting. If I found out any guy I knew was acting like that, I'd not only not date him, but I'd want absolutely nothing to do with him.

You've completely missed the point. The girls weren't wrong. My approach was wrong and off. Using your analogy, it would be like having the skills to do the job but going to every interview wearing ratty clothes and not combing your hair ahead of time. Doing so may mean that you are "being yourself" but it won't yield the desired results.

And, no, it isn't confidence for the sake of "scoring" with women; it's confidence for the sake of more success in every avenue of life.

And I still have yet to see someone make a good argument against any specific point in my original post.

And I still have yet to see someone make a good argument against any specific point in my original post.

It's not that you didn't make any good points, it's that you made the same points that were made 100 posts ago. Do you want a cookie for being able to think just like everyone else?

It's not that you didn't make any good points, it's that you made the same points that were made 100 posts ago. Do you want a cookie for being able to think just like everyone else?

Yes, I do, actually.

I'm specifically responding to the people who had a problem with my particular post, jackass.

Near as I can tell, any woman below the age of 20 who claims that she likes nice guys is either lying or fooling herself. The good news is that after that point, they start to figure out that going for jerks isn't working too well.

Success changed the way that I looked at myself. But the reason why I didn't actually "change myself" is that there really wasn't anything wrong with me, except my confidence. I don't believe in trying to be someone you're not.

I'm (genuinely) curious as to what you mean by "there really wasn't anything wrong with me". Is it:

a) I don't have an adequate basis to judge what is right and wrong, especially with myself/my good qualities and bad qualities are bound together as part of a whole, fixating on one part is stupid/any other sudden insight into the nature of the self.
b) I was completely wrong about having faults, actually I'm a great guy. That's why women sleep with me.

One option suggests a genuine breakthrough in your perception of self-worth (which usually goes hand in hand with perception of the worth of others). The other option just means you're in a better situation and so don't think about the negatives any more. There's no real growth and if circumstances change you'll just go right back into the old routine.

some of you guys here are absolutely pathetic. before you all become gay, go to www.doclove.com and read the free weekly advice (updated every thursday or friday; you can also read archived articles of his at www.askmen.com). Also, go to www.doubleyourdating.com and sign up for the free newsletter. Comes out three times a week. might actually get you laid for once.

Hah! "You guys need to get laid, so here's a bunch of WEB SITES which I possess links to since I'm so sexually l33t."

The blind leading the blind...

Perhaps his motives and/or rationale are skewed, I won’t jump ship as yet, but the end result is the same. I can see, in this context, why you didn’t take kindly to my point about the ends justifying the means.

I guess realistically it all boils down to intent and the will to see it through. If your intent is to get a relationship perhaps you need to examine your motives for seeking that. A solid relationship should not be built on the desire for a relationship but a desire to be with that person. Perhaps the problem with the OP is that he wants the relationship for the sake of the relationship, and not for any reason deeper than that. Hmm. Perhaps introspection into why he feels lonely without a relationship is needed. While I do advocate confidence, to an extreme, I also advocate self reliance and this thought pattern is contrary to that; A note to the OP, if you cannot be happy alone then how will you react if something happens where SHE needs YOUR support and not vice versa. If you are not strong enough to support yourself then how can you live and love for two?

I will not understate the importance of confidence, ever. But I am willing to concede that it is merely a vehicle to achieve your goals. Confidence is not the be all and end all but surely you can see that it is a common characteristic in successful people. Whether they are romantically, politically or careerist wise based it is an important vehicle.

Reading back this does look like a bit of a waffle but I assure you it is not. It is merely the exposure of the depth of my position. I blame the lack of sleep (going on 25hrs woot!)

And, an excellent post.

Well done.

Like you say - he seems to be looking for a relationship, just to be in a relationship - which is a flawed motive.

Obviously 25 hours sans-dormir is what you need!

I'm (genuinely) curious as to what you mean by "there really wasn't anything wrong with me". Is it:

a) I don't have an adequate basis to judge what is right and wrong, especially with myself/my good qualities and bad qualities are bound together as part of a whole, fixating on one part is stupid/any other sudden insight into the nature of the self.
b) I was completely wrong about having faults, actually I'm a great guy. That's why women sleep with me.

One option suggests a genuine breakthrough in your perception of self-worth (which usually goes hand in hand with perception of the worth of others). The other option just means you're in a better situation and so don't think about the negatives any more. There's no real growth and if circumstances change you'll just go right back into the old routine.

C: I am who I am, good and bad. It is good to take a step back and see which areas could use some improvement; in my case, it was confidence, and then take steps to improve those areas, but there is no fundamental reason why I shouldn't be able to date/have relationships. I approached dating in a way which didn't work, so I switched my approach to a more appropriate, effective one and I got better results. We all have faults. We all have weaknesses. But that shouldn't mean that we have to live life alone and lonely. And, like I said before, probably the most important difference between me then and now is that I really don't care if I'm alone or not anymore, because I've learned to get validation from my life, not from women.

You know, Grave, I'd like to know what SPECIFICALLY I said in my post which you disagree with. You seem to have a sort of knee jerk reaction to what you percieve, (incorrectly, it seems) my overall message to be, but what specifically did I say that you disagree with? Reread my post. What offensive thing did I say there.

Perhaps you believe that people should take rejection personally, and should spiral into a suicidal depression anytime they get turned down.

Or, perhaps you believe that people SHOULD get their validation from the opposite sex.

Or, maybe you think that people should beg and grovel for dates.

The only things that I can see may be controversial is when I told guys to be a little cocky and a little arrogant, and when I advocated pursuing more than one woman at once.

Firstly, I'm talking about the initial stages of dating when I advocate "playing the field," not when in a commited relationship. I'm talking about having an attitude of confidence no matter who you are, believing in yourself whether you are a nerd or a jock; blue collar or white collar; biker or cowboy; whatever. I AM talking about "being yourself" and LIKING yourself and believing that you have something to offer the opposite sex. I'm not talking about "magic" tricks. I'm talking about certain behaviors and actions that are appropriate and useful to the situation of dating, just as certain behaviors and actions are appropriate and useful in almost every area of life. I'm not telling people to put on a big act and try to be something they are not; I'm merely giving people a certain perspective on dating.

I spent the first TWENTY FOUR years of my life basically alone and lonely. alternately thinking that I just wasn't good looking enough, or that I had some other fundamental flaw, and believing that if I just "hung in there," and kept "being myself," eventually, I would find someone. In those rare instances when I was dating someone, I instantly became Mr. Perfect Boyfriend and began to shower her with gifts and love notes and poems. Naturally, this scared her off.

Then I changed the way I looked at dating, and my life has been far better. I've met and dated far more women and I'm far happier and more confident. Is there something wrong with that? Should I go back to the way that I used to be?

What I 'object' to, is dishonesty.

If you put on a persona - no matter how you describe that process to justify it to yourself - you are being dishonest.

I don't want to tell you how to live your life, but your description of going from the lonely undatable to the gift-showering 'perfect bf' pretty much shows where the problem was - and, I'm afraid, it's nothing to do with the appearance of confidence. There is no balance - and that is always the risk with pretending to be something.

Why are you so 'proud' of dating? Look, I've had hundreds of dates since I learned how to 'play' women... maybe I'm wrong, but I value the quality of experience far more than the quantity - and all that "hey babe, let me do YOU a favour" motif, just isn't likely to win you an honest relationship.

I just don't understand dating... I guess, or 'playing the field'. Both imply a casualness I refuse to master, and a regard for the opposite gender as some kind of trophy or conquest.

A man who is honest with himself (and the same applies for women) will have no shortage of friends of either gender, and, if experience bears me out - no shortage of offers of other kinds... but, my point is: the 'offers' shouldn't be a motivational tool for you to quick-fix a defective persona.

All my opinion.... you are welcome to heed it or ignore it, as you choose.

Hah! "You guys need to get laid, so here's a bunch of WEB SITES which I possess links to since I'm so sexually l33t."

The blind leading the blind...

ph34r my l33t sex skills

so, wait, a "real" man is one who wants to be stuck supporting an incapable female who insists on only having procreative sex? or a "real" woman is one who expects males to support her and only have sex with her to produce the babies that she wants?

where i come from, we call males in such a situation "pussy-whipped." odd, how people can have such different definitions of manhood and womanhood.

Some men can't feel like men unless they've got some helpless little thing to 'protect'. Thankfully, I have real men. Someone tries to give them any trouble, you can bet they'll deal with it, but they don't go looking for trouble. If someone tries to give me trouble, well, I can usually deal with it myself, but usually I get left pretty much alone. If not? Well, it's never come up, but I know either one of them would deal with it if I needed them to. They can also deal with my moods when I've had a bad day, and make me feel better and that can really take some doing when I've just come out of commuter hell. They had something on the news this morning about how a bad commute can be more stressful than being a fighter pilot. All the RAF guys I've met have been really laid back, so I guess it must be. :)

So... it wasn't you that was wrong. It was every girl you approached that was wrong. I like that logic.

"No one will hire me! It's not because I have no skills, it's because they only like bad employees! Yeah!"

If you got confidence for the *sole* reason of getting girls, that's sick. If you got it because you realised you had nothing to make you not confident, that's fine.

But you're advice was 'get confidence so you can get girls'. And that's just disgusting. If I found out any guy I knew was acting like that, I'd not only not date him, but I'd want absolutely nothing to do with him.

And, that is the point that I've been trying to make.

And, some of these guys seem to think that women are pretty dumb - that they'll get hooked by a wink and a nod, and be none the wiser.

Then, of course, they have no way to account for the reality that they keep getting two-week relationships, when the girl in question realises that the 'confident' approach was just a means to get in to her pants, and that is is a facade - and the REAL confidence is STILL lacking.

That is - to the best of my knowledge - so very true. HOWEVER, and I beg girls on this forum to enlighten us further, why the inly signs of self confidence that a girl/woman is able to notice are in the form of desiconsidering women and treating them like shit?

Why being nice and helpful and not rushing into bed tells a woman you lack self confidence? Why the fuck listening to her instead of puting your hand in her pants tells a woman that you lack self confidence?

Please tell me why only guys who turn out to be perfect jerks inspire selfconfidence to women?

Not a bloody clue. Girls confuse me. But I'm really glad that a friend of mine has come to her senses and gone for a nice guy - actually, thinking about it, it's a case of *her* doing the pursuing for a change rather than being pursued and giving in. I think it's having a bunch of good friends around her that's given her that confidence.

I see 'assertive' as 'jerk-like'. If a guy is desperately trying to act confident to get my attention, I would be turned off faster than I could even express. And I see 'passive' as 'invisible'. If they don't get out and meet me, how the hell am I meant to know them?

Nice and confident are totally unconnected. Nice means not talking to me in the hopes that I'll go out with you, and having a similar set of morals as me. Confident involves being able to talk to me without having to agree with every word I say, and being able to tell me if *I'm* being a jerk.

The problem is, you were advocating 'assertive'ness (in the sense of 'look at me! I'm confident! Go out with me now!) along with confidence.

Confidence gained soley to get a relationship is just as pathetic as crawling to a girl on your knees and begging her to like you. Huge, huge turn off.

The best thing to do is to not give a damn about getting a relationship. Act like you do around people you aren't trying to impress. Girls can pick up on when you're trying to get their attention as a potential girlfriend, and most are turned off by that - it comes across as weak and pathetic.

Excellent post. Well done to Sha-ed.

*Applause and bouquets*

The best thing to do is to not give a damn about getting a relationship. Act like you do around people you aren't trying to impress.

I really didn't give a damn...and I didn't get any. w00t.

You've completely missed the point. The girls weren't wrong. My approach was wrong and off. Using your analogy, it would be like having the skills to do the job but going to every interview wearing ratty clothes and not combing your hair ahead of time. Doing so may mean that you are "being yourself" but it won't yield the desired results.

And, no, it isn't confidence for the sake of "scoring" with women; it's confidence for the sake of more success in every avenue of life.

And I still have yet to see someone make a good argument against any specific point in my original post.

It may shock you to find out... "women" are not a job interview.

You seem to be confusing personal grooming with confidence. You go to a job interview, and act like you are doing THEM a favour, the average interviewer is putting you out on your ear - they are trained to spot that kind of 'scam'.

It may shock you to find out... "women" are not a job interview.

You seem to be confusing personal grooming with confidence. You go to a job interview, and act like you are doing THEM a favour, the average interviewer is putting you out on your ear - they are trained to spot that kind of 'scam'.

...except in the situations where you *are*. Which exist in the job market (I got my current job with wet hair, dog drool on my suit and the sole flapping off my shoe becuase I've managed to get myself a pretty rare skillset and was the only interviewee) but not, so far as I can tell, in the relationship 'market'.
I have to agree with everyone who's said that chasing a relationship for the sake of a relationship is pointless, because you're just not going to get one that way. As I said earlier, and someone else has reiterated with the 'perfect boyfriend' story, going in straight away with the intent of having a serious relationship is going to scare girls off, because not only are they not going to be interested in a 'serious' relationship straight away, when they don't *know* the guy all that well, but they're going to know that it's not *them* that the guy's interested in but the relationship. I still think your best bet is to make a bunch of friends, and if something develops with one of them, great - if it doesn't, oh well. You can always get to know more people. You're only likely to have a serious relationship with someone once you've established that you get on well and have plenty in common.

...except in the situations where you *are*. Which exist in the job market (I got my current job with wet hair, dog drool on my suit and the sole flapping off my shoe becuase I've managed to get myself a pretty rare skillset and was the only interviewee) but not, so far as I can tell, in the relationship 'market'.
I have to agree with everyone who's said that chasing a relationship for the sake of a relationship is pointless, because you're just not going to get one that way. As I said earlier, and someone else has reiterated with the 'perfect boyfriend' story, going in straight away with the intent of having a serious relationship is going to scare girls off, because not only are they not going to be interested in a 'serious' relationship straight away, when they don't *know* the guy all that well, but they're going to know that it's not *them* that the guy's interested in but the relationship. I still think your best bet is to make a bunch of friends, and if something develops with one of them, great - if it doesn't, oh well. You can always get to know more people. You're only likely to have a serious relationship with someone once you've established that you get on well and have plenty in common.

I totally agree.

The thing about the 'acting like you are doing them a favour'... well, you WERE doing them a favour, and not just putting on an 'attitude' to try to impress them, while covering up any personal weakness that would have fatally flawed the procedure.

My parallel: the flawed personality still exists under the 'brave face' of confidence that people put on to 'score'... and, eventually, the 'employer' will notice that the 'employee' just can't do their job.

I do need to go out into town more. It's just that I'm stuck on this base most of the time. I guess that if I go out there and just start asking for the number of every girl I meet, I'm bound to find the right one eventually, even though I'll get dissed most of the time, and will probably feel even worse than I do now.

In all seriousness, actually tring to deal with the original poster, rather than other people's plans of action:

First time REALLY away from home, feeling lonely, looking for a friend - and maybe something more...

What you are feeling is insecurity, coupled with an over-availability of 'manly' companionship. Looking for the 'dream girl' isn't the solution, and not really all that realistic.

It will get easier... much easier, as time passes. As you learn to adjust - and that 'isolation' will become less of a big deal - and, with it, part of this need for companionship.

I blame Hollywood - for creating the illusion that every trouble can be smoothed away with a whirlwind romance.

Serious advice. Quit 'looking' for a girl. Just do stuff you enjoy, when you get the chance. Try to work out what it is about the way you act, that attracts girls you are not interested in... and, maybe, why you are not interested...

Perhaps you will find that your 'indifference' is what makes you attractive to them. You are not 'interested', so you don't chase them - and, because you don't chase them, you become more attractive?

My advice is always to be honest and up-front - and don't go chasing 'conquests', or spending your whole time chasing a dream-relationship... that is chasing a relationship for the sake of a relationship, and nobody wants to feel that they are just the convenient face that happened by.

I think everyone needs to learn who THEY are, before they can really start relating to other people.

Hey Ryannia. How was your evening spent rogering the mods?

In all seriousness, actually tring to deal with the original poster, rather than other people's plans of action:

First time REALLY away from home, feeling lonely, looking for a friend - and maybe something more...

What you are feeling is insecurity, coupled with an over-availability of 'manly' companionship. Looking for the 'dream girl' isn't the solution, and not really all that realistic.

It will get easier... much easier, as time passes. As you learn to adjust - and that 'isolation' will become less of a big deal - and, with it, part of this need for companionship.

I blame Hollywood - for creating the illusion that every trouble can be smoothed away with a whirlwind romance.

Serious advice. Quit 'looking' for a girl. Just do stuff you enjoy, when you get the chance. Try to work out what it is about the way you act, that attracts girls you are not interested in... and, maybe, why you are not interested...

Perhaps you will find that your 'indifference' is what makes you attractive to them. You are not 'interested', so you don't chase them - and, because you don't chase them, you become more attractive?

My advice is always to be honest and up-front - and don't go chasing 'conquests', or spending your whole time chasing a dream-relationship... that is chasing a relationship for the sake of a relationship, and nobody wants to feel that they are just the convenient face that happened by.

I think everyone needs to learn who THEY are, before they can really start relating to other people.

Sounds about right to me. I'd still like Ryan to explain what he meant by 'slutty girls' though...

Sounds about right to me. I'd still like Ryan to explain what he meant by 'slutty girls' though...

I agree - I think that is part of Ryan's problem in this situation - and far too many of the posters have brushed it aside.

C: I am who I am, good and bad.

Hmm, I'm not sure which category this belongs to. It could be that you've reached a genuine breakthrough, or it equally could be that you're just not thinking about the problem anymore. I'm not you so I'm not about to pass judgement. I'll ask you to consider the following, though:

When did this change occur? Did it occur shortly after a lengthy period of self relfection and most likely self criticism? If so it's most likely genuine. If, on the other hand, it occured a shortish time after the dates started to roll in and built up as the dates did, then there's a good chance it's not real revelation, just avoidance.

If you seriously and objectively reflect on the situation and are inclined to the second view then I'd advise avoiding relationships like the plague, they'll most likely make things worse. If you can objectively and critically view your situation and are not inclined to agree then you've probably made a real breakthrough. Which is a bloody good thing, all in all.


It is good to take a step back and see which areas could use some improvement; in my case, it was confidence, and then take steps to improve those areas, but there is no fundamental reason why I shouldn't be able to date/have relationships.

That's not a part of your personality, it's a manifestation of it. What I meant by make a change is change, or limit, those parts of your personality that cause you to act in a harmful way to others.

I approached dating in a way which didn't work, so I switched my approach to a more appropriate, effective one and I got better results. We all have faults. We all have weaknesses. But that shouldn't mean that we have to live life alone and lonely.

Actually, if those weaknesses are likely to lead a person into a series of unhealthy, destructive relationships then it most certainly should. TBH until you've really come to terms with yourself intimate relationships are a potential minefield. Laced with sarin.

And, like I said before, probably the most important difference between me then and now is that I really don't care if I'm alone or not anymore, because I've learned to get validation from my life, not from women.

This rings somewhat true, though the part about validation from my life could be a bit worrying, depending on what you meant. If you meant what is happening in your life then I'd say it's far healthier to get validation from yourself than anything external. External things are much more prone to dramstic change.

You may well have reached a genuine acceptance of yourself, though. It's hard to tell but if you have then kudos. However, I will point out one thing. Even if your acceptance came in part through projecting confidence in order to attract women advocating it as a tactic can be highly dangerous. If anyone who is not comfortable with themselves and who feel in need of a relationship follows it they are very likely to either get hurt when the potential relathionshipee realises the deception or get sucked into destructive relationships. Both of these results will only make the situation worse, not better.

aaah, poor darling. Perhaps your problem is, you're asking the wrong people... lots of girls (such as moi) like nice boys... do you just ask every girl you meet, or is there a 'type' you go for? sensible is probably best.

Ryanania-
Took a lot of courage to post that. kudos.

I'm 20 now and when i was 18 i honestly, truely believed i was going to be alone forever. The only girls i met would sleep with me and take off in the morning. It was nice for a while but for me it became rather unsatisfying. I quit that crap and just spent my time on me and my future and such. The women i've met since then are more 'together' and have more interests than 'yur hot, lets bump pelvices'.People have posted some really good advice, much better than i can give. heh.

Only thing i gotta say is give it time and don't worry. Concentrate on you cuz people come and go.

OK, I am under orders to be nice today and so I am finally going to sensibly address my problems with this thread:

First off, here are some pictures of me:

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124201

http://www.golemlabs.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=124202

Not bad, right?

First sign right there that you are either an extremly insecure wreck or a liar. If it is the former, no girls at your age are going to go out with someone lacking in confidence and who is "not bad". Face it.
If it is the latter then get the fuck off this board.

Anyway, I cannot form a relationship with any non-slutty girls because I'm too nice.

Don't sound like much of a nice guy to me.

I always get the same response,

"Ryan, you're the sweetest guy I've ever met, but I'm not good with relationships. I don't want to hurt you."

Maybe they say that because they just don't want to hurt your feelings by saying instead "I don't fancy you." Thought of that?

Then they always go for the jerk, because they aren't afraid of hurting his feelings.

Or because they fancy him perhaps? And who you say is a jerk, doesn't necessarily make them a jerk to others. I personally think you're a jerk, and no doubt many consider me one. It doesn't mean I am.

In conclusion, don't be a nice guy, because it will get you nowhere with women.

That is a totally childish response which leads me to deduce that you are actually rather immature. This and:

He keeps on calling me a homosexual, and he's already been warned once about it in the same thread.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=375700&page=23&pp=15

I mean what the hell is that if it isn't squealing?

Ryanania-
Took a lot of courage to post that.

Yeah right, took a hell of a lot of courage to post a load of made up crap about yourself on to a site full of strangers who wouldn't know better and begin a conversation wherein all that you are hearing is "I can't believe Claudia Schiffer/Elle Macpherson/whoever you fancy doesn't want to go out with you!" Brave? Sounds more like insecurity to me.

The only girls i met would sleep with me and take off in the morning.

Can you give me the number of these girls?

Ok guys that's my two cents.

I mean what the hell is that if it isn't squealing?
It isn't. There are rules here to keep it reasonable for everyone.

Yeah right, took a hell of a lot of courage to post a load of made up crap about yourself on to a site full of strangers who wouldn't know better and begin a conversation wherein all that you are hearing is "I can't believe Claudia Schiffer/Elle Macpherson/whoever you fancy doesn't want to go out with you!" Brave? Sounds more like insecurity to me.



I said it is brave because you know damn well asking for advice on any forum is going to include people calling you an idiot, insecure, liar, etc. I'm *assuming* here but i'm pretty sure he knew when he posted that there were going to be people attacking him.

It isn't. There are rules here to keep it reasonable for everyone.

And which one did I break?

I said it is brave because you know damn well asking for advice on any forum is going to include people calling you an idiot, insecure, liar, etc. I'm *assuming* here but i'm pretty sure he knew when he posted that there were going to be people attacking him.

No, he knew that idiots would start posting "That's harsh, I pity you mate" until it got to the stage where some women were sending him their phone numbers. If he needs a boost then he should pay for it like all those other hicks.

No, he knew that idiots would start posting "That's harsh, I pity you mate" until it got to the stage where some women were sending him their phone numbers. If he needs a boost then he should pay for it like all those other hicks.

You're kinda angry, huh? Having a bad day?

You're kinda angry, huh? Having a bad day?

No, just trying to justify my problem with this thread. If people think I am a jerk then that's what they think, but at least now they can understand my problem with this post namely that Ryan has either: simply not thought through the real reasons why the person rejected him or secondly he is making the shit up.

No, just trying to justify my problem with this thread. If people think I am a jerk then that's what they think, but at least now they can understand my problem with this post namely that Ryan has either: simply not thought through the real reasons why the person rejected him or secondly he is making the shit up.

How old are you? 18 was only 2 years ago for me but i remember being freaked out and overwhelmed with everything. You're 18 OH SHIT time to get a job or go to college, gotta figure out what you want to do with your life, (while well meaning) your friends are no help, your family is no help, AND NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE. You throw in women to all that insanity..

Maybe i'm just reflecting some of what everyone i know and myself went through around 17/18 but i know it's tuff. Asking for and hopefully getting *good* advice about a subject most eveyone has had some experience with just doesn't seem like something that someone would get annoyed with. I'm confused as to why you're so angry about this thread.

How old are you? 18 was only 2 years ago for me but i remember being freaked out and overwhelmed with everything. You're 18 OH SHIT time to get a job or go to college, gotta figure out what you want to do with your life, (while well meaning) your friends are no help, your family is no help, AND NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE. You throw in women to all that insanity..

Maybe i'm just reflecting some of what everyone i know and myself went through around 17/18 but i know it's tuff. Asking for and hopefully getting *good* advice about a subject most eveyone has had some experience with just doesn't seem like something that someone would get annoyed with. I'm confused as to why you're so angry about this thread.

But what he is asking for advice on he wouldnt need if only he had some common sense.

It may shock you to find out... "women" are not a job interview.

I was just using the other person's analogy.

You seem to be confusing personal grooming with confidence. You go to a job interview, and act like you are doing THEM a favour, the average interviewer is putting you out on your ear - they are trained to spot that kind of 'scam'.

Again, it was an analogy.

18? dude hang loose and enjoy it while it lasts......women no matter what age
they are always go for the "bad boy" thing....then they seem to get over it and start looking for a stable relationship....like i said just enjoy being 18,
because when you hit 35 and your job goes to sh*t and your hair is falling out
the house is on the brink of being repo'd ......i'm not saying that's going to happen but there is alway's that possiablity and 18 starts to look real nice....
so enjoy it while you can and be your self they will like that much better anyway.

So not true. I always go for the nice guys.

They say opposites attract though, and to often thats very very true. Someone who you think is just right for you, might end up being completely wrong in the end. Good girls tire of "bad guys" eventually, and then they realize their mistakes, and run off to find the nice boy that they were REALLY looking for in the first place, but over looked as a "friend".

i am friends with the 'nice guys' but then i fancy the moody ones

I've skimmed some of the posts on this thread and let me put in the over 50 female's opinion. As I am sure you know, you are a good looking young man. You obviously are lettered in sports. If you are truly having problems attracting "non-slutty" girls, I would guess that means you are dating the girls with questionable reputations. A person is judged by the company they keep. A girl with high standards would look at your dating habits and come to the conclusion that you date girls that are sexually active. As a "good" girl would not want to be put in the position of being pressured for sex, they would avoid you like a STD. Also, check your attitude. Do you let girls know that you have higher standards for yourself and expect similar attitudes in a girlfriend? Also, be aware that girls are not as emotionally mature as women my age were. I didn't actually walk 3 miles uphill to and from school, but I didn't have a computer, a walkman (we had turntables), my own car (until college), video games (pinball machines were hi-tech), name brand athletic shoes (only the poor kids wore "tennies"), designer clothes, and, believe it or not, we got 3 TV stations, ABC, NBC, CBS (FOX wasn't around yet). We had a firmer grip on imperatives. A lot of girls today don't seem to plan beyond the weekend and go for thrills instead of security. They'll grow out of it....I think.

nice girls finish last. so do nice guys. :confused: :confused: :confused: so there should be some nice girls for some nice guys, i dunno. i'm sick of this topic

Hmm, I'm not sure which category this belongs to. It could be that you've reached a genuine breakthrough, or it equally could be that you're just not thinking about the problem anymore. I'm not you so I'm not about to pass judgement. I'll ask you to consider the following, though:

When did this change occur? Did it occur shortly after a lengthy period of self relfection and most likely self criticism? If so it's most likely genuine. If, on the other hand, it occured a shortish time after the dates started to roll in and built up as the dates did, then there's a good chance it's not real revelation, just avoidance.

If you seriously and objectively reflect on the situation and are inclined to the second view then I'd advise avoiding relationships like the plague, they'll most likely make things worse. If you can objectively and critically view your situation and are not inclined to agree then you've probably made a real breakthrough. Which is a bloody good thing, all in all.



That's not a part of your personality, it's a manifestation of it. What I meant by make a change is change, or limit, those parts of your personality that cause you to act in a harmful way to others.


Actually, if those weaknesses are likely to lead a person into a series of unhealthy, destructive relationships then it most certainly should. TBH until you've really come to terms with yourself intimate relationships are a potential minefield. Laced with sarin.


This rings somewhat true, though the part about validation from my life could be a bit worrying, depending on what you meant. If you meant what is happening in your life then I'd say it's far healthier to get validation from yourself than anything external. External things are much more prone to dramstic change.

You may well have reached a genuine acceptance of yourself, though. It's hard to tell but if you have then kudos. However, I will point out one thing. Even if your acceptance came in part through projecting confidence in order to attract women advocating it as a tactic can be highly dangerous. If anyone who is not comfortable with themselves and who feel in need of a relationship follows it they are very likely to either get hurt when the potential relathionshipee realises the deception or get sucked into destructive relationships. Both of these results will only make the situation worse, not better.


The thing is, Stripes, you seem to believe that if someone is dateless, then that person has some fundamental flaw, or, as Grave's put it, a "defective" persona. You seem to believe that said person needs to go on some personal odyssy of self-discovery. It's all fine and good to improve oneself, and I'm a huge advocate of it, but, when it comes to dating, the problem is often far more a practical one of approach and behavior. And that's all I was doing; offering solid, practical advice on how to be more successful in the initial stages of dating. After all, is anyone perfect? Is there such a thing as a perfect partner?

One way says this: I'm dateless. I am unsuccessful in love. What is wrong with me? The other says: I'm dateless. I am unsuccessful in love. What am I DOING wrong?

Like I said, we all have flaws. We all have reasons why people shouldn't like us. In that sense, both questions are valid, but self-improvement shouldn't be done for the sole purpose of getting more dates. I think that you and I agree on that. If you want more dates, I say, approach dating in an effective manner.

And it isn't a deception. Pretending to like horror movies, when in fact you cannot stand them, to impress the other person is a deception. Pretending to have a degree which you do not is a deception. Pretending to be a woman when you are in fact a guy in drag is a deception. Approaching women in a more confident, personable manner is not. It is simply the more effective, appropriate means by which to get that first date. She's not someday going to suddenly say: "Hey, you tricked me! You pretended to be confident when, in fact, you actually have some insecurities! It's over!"

All I really talked about in my original post is not taking rejection as a reflection of one's self worth, of realizing that attraction is not logical, (i.e., not believing that you can manipulate a woman into wanting you romantically by being "nice" to her,) realizing that one may get rejected a few times before hearing a "yes," approaching women with confidence, humor, and personality, keeping your options open in the early going, and trying not to get too hung up on one particular person, etc.

This is all, in my opinion, good, sound, PRACTICAL advice to give a self-proclaimed "nice guy" who was struggling in dating. Actually, I'm really surprised at the vitriol that my post recieved. I really think that people had a sort of knee jerk response to it. Perhaps that's my fault. Maybe I made it seem as though I was advocating trying to be something that you're not; I wasn't. It's not about pretending to be someone you're not; it's about approaching that particular area of life in a way that works.

People do the same thing with their careers, their families, their marriages, etc. Certain behavoirs and approaches work, others generally do not. Being oneself doesn't mean being utterly impulsive and putting everything on the table right away. It doesn't mean acting really nervous when asking someone out just because you feel that way somewhat inside.

Wow, I can't even tell you how wrong it is to assume all women don't like nice guys.

Girls (immature little barbies, and by barbies I mean the little "OMG look at him!" girls) may not appreciate a guy for being nice, but mature women do. Someday you'll find the perfect girl, sweep her off her feet (perhaps that's the step you're missing with the "non-slutty" girls), and get married. You're young, relax.

This of course is coming from a girl that believes the nice guy should ALWAYS get the girl, and thinks the "bad-boys" are lame.

P.S. - You are cute ;)

Edit: I just want to point out, to avoid misunderstanding, that, apart from at the very end of the post, when I say "you" in this it's in the same sense as "one".

The thing is, Stripes, you seem to believe that if someone is dateless, then that person has some fundamental flaw, or, as Grave's put it, a "defective" persona.

No, I never said that. I only started referring to your flaws after you admitted to them yourself. Which is a good start. I certainly do not believe that anyone who is dateless has fundamental flaws. If they really want dates and can't get them on the other hand, well, that's a different matter.

You seem to believe that said person needs to go on some personal odyssy of self-discovery.

Actually I belive every person needs to do that. In my experience (not just of myself but of close friends and family, too) until you've taken a long hard look at yourself you can't truly be at ease with yourself and others. You end up either using others to get what you want, hating others for not giving you what you want, pitying yourself or hating yourself. Not having a date is irrelevant in that equation.

It's all fine and good to improve oneself, and I'm a huge advocate of it, but, when it comes to dating, the problem is often far more a practical one of approach and behavior. And that's all I was doing; offering solid, practical advice on how to be more successful in the initial stages of dating. After all, is anyone perfect? Is there such a thing as a perfect partner?

If all you want is to get laid then this is a fine strategy, no question. Just don't expect the other person to stick around for too long if you're not being honest, or if they do you have to wonder why they are. Maybe it's because you truly are a really wonderful human being with no major issues (though one then wonders where the self-confidence issue came from). Quite probably, though, it's because they have their own problems they are trying to hide from.

And it isn't a deception. Pretending to like horror movies, when in fact you cannot stand them, to impress the other person is a deception. Pretending to have a degree which you do not is a deception. Pretending to be a woman when you are in fact a guy in drag is a deception. Approaching women in a more confident, personable manner is not. It is simply the more effective, appropriate means by which to get that first date. She's not someday going to suddenly say: "Hey, you tricked me! You pretended to be confident when, in fact, you actually have some insecurities! It's over!"

How do you think a long term relationship is going to work on this basis? You either keep up the charade, and so have a relationship based on dishonesty while never being able to deal with your issues, or you come clean and admit that the guy they were attracted to is not, in fact, you. Like I said if after that they still stick around you've got to wonder why.

All I'm talked about is not taking rejection as a reflection of one's self worth, of realizing that attraction is not logical, (i.e., not believing that you can manipulate a woman into wanting you romantically by being "nice" to her,) realizing that one may get rejected a few times before hearing a "yes," approaching women with confidence, humor, and personality, keeping your options open in the early going, etc. This is all, in my opinion, good, sound, PRACTICAL advice. Actually, I'm really surprised at the vitriol that my post recieved. I really think that people had a sort of knee jerk response to it. Perhaps that's my fault. Maybe I made it seem as though I was advocating trying to be something that you're not; I wasn't. It's not about pretending to be someone you're not; it's about approaching that particular area of life in a way that works.

But, and here's the crux, if someone needs to be told to act confidently and self-assured then they aren't. If you really are at ease with yourself it comes naturally. And if you're at ease with yourself you'll be at ease with other people. Hence you're much more likely to be able to have a decent relationship.

There are, of course, those who are self-confident who haven't been through the process, though. They are usually either completely blind to their own faults or aware of them, and haven't truly accepted them, but projecting the confidence. They see relationships with the other sex (or for some the same sex) as a game to be won. In either case they are not good candidates for a relationship because they aren't, at a basic level, able to truly relate to their "conquests". They see them as something less than themselves.

People do the same thing with their careers, their families, their marriages, etc. Certain behavoirs and approaches work, others generally do not. Being oneself doesn't mean being utterly impulsive and putting everything on the table right away. It doesn't mean acting really nervous when asking someone out just because you feel that way somewhat inside.

That's the thing, though, once you've sorted your shit out that nervousness goes. Honestly. If that nervousness is still there it's telling you something.

I think there's still something we're missing, though. Why the hunt? If it's from a feeling of a need for a relationship then all that's saying is that you feel incomplete in some way. Bad sign. It means you'll be looking for all the wrong things in a relationship.

You can argue it's just for sex. Well, IMHO, it never is. When push comes to shove "just" sex means just an orgasm. Most people are more than capable of providing that for themselves. Usually it's about something more than just a moment of pleasure. For some it's the need to be close to someone, for others the need to succeed in getting someone and for yet others the need to have someone react positively to you. Whatever it is it boils down to something you need other people to give you because you can't give it to yourself. For a few sex is just part of the whole thing. And the whole thing is about sharing yourself with someone you feel is an equal. Until that's how you feel you're walking a tight-rope; once the needs stop being fulfilled you'll be back in a not very pleasant place.

On a final note, I really hate psychobabble but I can't help but notice this isn't the first time you've suggested someone believes that if someone can't get a date they have fundamental flaws when, in fact, they said nothing of the kind. Just try to think for a while why it is you are reading that into other people's comments. This really isn't a dig, so please, don't immediately react negatively, I just feel it's something you should consider honestly and calmly.

No, just trying to justify my problem with this thread. If people think I am a jerk then that's what they think, but at least now they can understand my problem with this post namely that Ryan has either: simply not thought through the real reasons why the person rejected him or secondly he is making the shit up.

I wonder why you didn't post this 'condensed' version instead of the flamebait you DID post?

But, and here's the crux, if someone needs to be told to act confidently and self-assured then they aren't.

Cut's straight through all the crap.

Absolute gold.

The thing is, Stripes, you seem to believe that if someone is dateless, then that person has some fundamental flaw, or, as Grave's put it, a "defective" persona. You seem to believe that said person needs to go on some personal odyssy of self-discovery. It's all fine and good to improve oneself, and I'm a huge advocate of it, but, when it comes to dating...


When it comes to 'dating'... you keep bringing this up, like some kind of grail-quest. Why are you setting special rules for dating? Is it not part of your life? This is the argument, I guess, that I have with you - you have a special 'place' compartmentalised off for 'relations with women', and you have a strategy for dealing with that 'situation'. To my reckoning, that is dishonest.


One way says this: I'm dateless. I am unsuccessful in love. What is wrong with me? The other says: I'm dateless. I am unsuccessful in love. What am I DOING wrong?

Like I said, we all have flaws. We all have reasons why people shouldn't like us. In that sense, both questions are valid, but self-improvement shouldn't be done for the sole purpose of getting more dates. I think that you and I agree on that. If you want more dates, I say, approach dating in an effective manner.


"self-improvement shouldn't be done for the sole purpose of getting more dates". I agree... but this isn't what you have been posting. You have been posting your 'self-help guide to scoring more' - whether you realise it or not... that is how it is being perceived.

And then, back to the favourite: :"If you want more dates, I say, approach dating in an effective manner". Once again, you undo your good work, by creating a strategy situation. Once again, we are looking at a 'technique', and for the pursuit of 'dates'. You aren't ever mentioning having a 'relationship'... just having dates... which, I guess, is another way of saying "Getting Laid".


And it isn't a deception. Pretending to like horror movies, when in fact you cannot stand them, to impress the other person is a deception. Pretending to have a degree which you do not is a deception. Pretending to be a woman when you are in fact a guy in drag is a deception. Approaching women in a more confident, personable manner is not. It is simply the more effective, appropriate means by which to get that first date. She's not someday going to suddenly say: "Hey, you tricked me! You pretended to be confident when, in fact, you actually have some insecurities! It's over!"


Faking a confident persona IS deception.


This is all, in my opinion, good, sound, PRACTICAL advice to give a self-proclaimed "nice guy" who was struggling in dating. Actually, I'm really surprised at the vitriol that my post recieved. I really think that people had a sort of knee jerk response to it. Perhaps that's my fault. Maybe I made it seem as though I was advocating trying to be something that you're not; I wasn't. It's not about pretending to be someone you're not; it's about approaching that particular area of life in a way that works.

People do the same thing with their careers, their families, their marriages, etc. Certain behavoirs and approaches work, others generally do not. Being oneself doesn't mean being utterly impulsive and putting everything on the table right away. It doesn't mean acting really nervous when asking someone out just because you feel that way somewhat inside.

I think you like the phrase "knee-jerk", since you use it in some of the strangest places...

Once again - you finish up by explaining why a 'technique' is necessary - which I perceive as a replacement for actually being able to 'deal' with people. Someone who can comfortably, confidently relate to people, does it naturally.... they don't need to have a strategy or technique.

Here's a thought: Why not see if those 'slutty girls' don't actually WANT to be slutty?

I'm currently dating a self-defined 'slut' or 'whore' as she prefers. Due to a circumstance or two, and my nasty amounts of will power, she and I won't have sex for at least a year. There's other fun things, of course, but no coitus, under any circumstances, for a year. When she first made her move, she was looking for a few nights of sex, indeed, her move was to suggest taking a shower together. The fact that I didn't want sex, but was perfectly willing to get close to her outright blew her mind. She's still amazed at the whole thing. Every once in awhile, she verbally reminds herself that, even after that year of wait, I still wouldn't require sex from her, but would still be there for her. I also have told her that, so long as it makes her happy, I won't begrudge her if she 'cheats' on me. I'm here for HER, not her crotch. Since then, her 'slut' tendancies have seriously waned, she hasn't slept with anyone since we got together, she's no longer sighing about all of her exes, and she's outright glowing with happiness (took her up to the mountains, where she saw her first buck up close -- it was strolling by close enough to walk up and poke in the nose). She was nearly crying.

While I'm not an advocate of seeking to 'change' people, showing some solidarity with people with less pleasant habits can do interesting things. Even if things don't ultimately work out with me and my lady friend, she's now aware of joys outside of the bedroom more than she ever has been. I don't think she'll approach relationships with the same goals, henceforth. I think she'll look for happiness first.

Also, the most important tip I can give, ever, to anyone.

Make the smiles, the true happiness of those around you your goal. Make their laughter your ambrosia. Don't fake it, make it TRUE. If the happiness of those around you is what truly matters, and any sacrifices are happily given to that, life gets better. Be there for the smiles, and be there to give a shoulder and an ear and time.

Being that way has resulted in me never having to seek a companion (they -always- come to me..), despite having a gut and no massive 'offerings' (While I'm not poor, I'm damned sure not rich). Indeed, I resemble a 5'10" dwarf who shaves his beard (and I only shaved it off a few years ago). I have sexy, slim pre-med students saying kinky things about their bisexual fantasies to try to seduce me as a result of being there for them as a friend, come thick or thin.

Truly nice guys get shower scenes.

(Also, I think the leather jackets help. Some girls just looove to stroke leather...)

I find it interesting that referring to someone as a latent homosexual is flamebait. Does that not imply there is something inherently wrong with homosexuality and that to refer to someone as that is a bad thing? If that’s the case the would make the mods more than a little discriminatory.

[Though I realize that for this context Sean O Mac could’ve relayed his message with a bit more tact he does have the right to a contrary opinion. Is it ours to say that Sean O Mac is wrong? Yes. Is it ours to use any coercive measures to enforce our belief over his? No. For all we know the OP might ‘come out of the closet’ five years down the road with the realization that the reason he could not make an emotional connection with women is because he prefers men.]

Just two cents, don’t get up in arms.

I've skimmed some of the posts on this thread and let me put in the over 50 female's opinion. As I am sure you know, you are a good looking young man. You obviously are lettered in sports. If you are truly having problems attracting "non-slutty" girls, I would guess that means you are dating the girls with questionable reputations. A person is judged by the company they keep. A girl with high standards would look at your dating habits and come to the conclusion that you date girls that are sexually active. As a "good" girl would not want to be put in the position of being pressured for sex, they would avoid you like a STD.

From what I remember, there's also a lot of assumptions that guys who are good at sports (and isn't he at a military academy? that's even WORSE) are a certain way, and that tends to make the 'good' girls run a mile - they will always assume that any guy that *seems* nice is stringing them a line, even if they're not. For ages every military or ex-military guy I met *was* a randy idiot and still every welsh guy I've met living outside Wales has been a manipulative git. Now that I'm with a lovely guy who's ex-military (which I didn't know until I'd already started dating him, because it wasn't a good time for him and he doesn't talk about it much) I'll *not* assume that all ex-military guys are randy liars, and I'm prepared to give the ex-pat welsh a chance - but I *will* always be wary.

In response to a long post by siaque:

One of my current partners had been dateless for ages, and being overweight, watching his taller, thinner younger brother and assorted friends get girls but not doing so himself, he lost his confidence. After flirting with me for ages in IM, he posted to LJ saying there was someone he was interested in, but didn't know how to say anything or even if he should. He wasn't *sure* she was interested or if she was just having fun, and didn't want to risk a friendship. I worked out immediately that he meant me. He *said* he meant to friends-lock it on a filter I wasn't on, but I *did* see it. He insists this was a mistake. Recently, (about a year later) he's made a post which makes me think it *was* intentional - saying he was nervous about trying for a relationship with me, but decided to take the risk. He didn't name me in his original post. I don't think it was dishonest - I think he was just making it up to *me* to say something, that he found a clever way of letting me know he was interested without necessarily screwing up our friendship if I *wasn't* interested. If I hadn't been serious about him, I could have just ignored the post or pretended I assumed it to be about someone else. I've had some friends say that doing it that way was dishonest - because he *might* have lied about whether he knew I was on that filter - but I don't see it that way. He wasn't pretending to be something he wasn't, the post showed that he was unsure. I just think it's sweet. I find it doubly sweet that it took him an hour after I told him on IM that I was fairly sure it was about me and he admitted it was, to work out that I was pleased and wanted to have a relationship with him. I think if Even if I *hadn't* noticed that post that he would have been told by the other people on his friends list to go for it, and would have - and the outcome would have been the same, just possibly with less of me giggling at work. If it would have resulted in a different outcome, then I would be peeved about it.

Here's a thought: Why not see if those 'slutty girls' don't actually WANT to be slutty?

(only snipped to avoid posting it all again).
I *know* I'm oversexed. And I just got in from the 'company meeting' that takes place monthly in a pub so forgive pointless TMI and rambling. I love sex, and while as someone else pointed out, I can quite easily have an orgasm on my own, there *is* more to it than that. I have had flings that were 90% about the sex for both of us. The sex with the guys I love isn't all that mindblowing. It's nice, but if I come, well... it's just a bonus. It's nice, but it's about more than the orgasms for me when I'm with someone I care about. If I'm in a relationship with someone, the sex isn't mind-blowing and that *bothers* me, that's an indicator for me that something's wrong. The orgasm side of sex just isn't that important when I'm in a good relationship. If it were, my ideal date would be made of pink plastic and take AA batteries. I don't want to be with a guy I see as little more than a life support system for his knob. I need to *know* a guy, and have him know me, and I need that to be more than knowing what he likes between the sheets.
When I'm with someone I care about, it's more about just *being* with them, and doing something for them that they like. One guy likes fly fishing and motobikes, and hadn't been able to afford to do either for ages. So, for his birthday, I rented him a motorbike, and we rode it down to a fishing place my Dad goes to. Dad liked being able to share his favourite lakes with us, which was nice.
My coat wasn't really suitable for biking and I was freezing my bits off sat on the pillion, and every time we got a decent bit of speed on the motorway the collar was slapping me in the neck so it was pretty much raw by the time I got home. It took us far longer than it should have to get home because we took a 200 mile detour and then got lost - but it made my man *so* happy that I loved it. It made my gran happy too, cause she's not been on a bike in 40 years, and a quick run to the shops really made her day.
My other guy, he had this thing about going to a november 5th fireworks display with his girl, something he posted about on his LJ a few months before we got together. The first 5th nov we missed due to both having already agreed to be elsewhere, but this time I did everything I could to make nov 5th just like he'd said he wanted it to be. My remembering that from one post so long ago really made him happy. Most of it's about little things. Toffee apples. *Noticing* the desire for toffee-apples. The things someone who's not really interested in *them* as a person wouldn't notice.
It's not one-way of course - they do stuff for me that makes me happy too. I've been taken to costume museums (and what guy really gives a toss about 19th century dresses?) and generally driven places I've wanted to go and wouldn't have been able to because I can't drive. I've been introduced to their friends, and it makes me happy that their friends like me too.
I've often said elsewhere that I like shy nerdy guys, or, a while ago, that I was the virgin-trainer - the girl who'll be the first girlfriend and give a guy the confidence to go for someone who's better for him. I've always thought that I should avoid relationships with guys who've had a bunch of girls, because I'm not what they need - but that's not it. It's that they're the arseholes who don't bother getting to know me. The shy nerdy guys talk and we get to know each other. The arseholes're the ones who're not interested in who I really am or in letting me see who they really are, and it's for *that* reason they've had a whole bunch of women but not had real, lasting relationships with them.
I despair for one ex who I'm still friends with, because he'll *never* open up to anyone. He wouldn't talk to me when we were dating, nor to any other woman I've seen him date, and he *still* won't talk, about anything. He didn't even manage to tell me he didn't think the relationship wasn't going well (which *I* could have told him, I was gearing up to have a Talk and end it if things didn't change) until he suddenly dumped me over coffee one morning and pretty much ran away leaving me to sit and stare at his undrunk latte. The previous night he'd said pretty much the opposite.
He'll say cryptic things, and then get upset when you try to work out what he means, to try to be there for him with whatever the hell he's dealing with. Most of my friends know they can say just about *anything* to me. I've talked people out of killing themselves, listened to people in all sorts of bad situations who've not felt able to open up to anyone else about it. And he can't even talk to me - what the hell chance has *he* got of ever forming a proper relationship if he can't ever be open? He'll tell people things that have happened, but never how he feels about that or how that affects how he sees things now.
So - if the talking is what makes the relationship work, why have I got a string of relationships behind me? Because even the talking isn't a guarantee things will last. Sometimes, as a guy's confidence grows he's realised that he was with me partially because he didn't think anyone else would ever be interested - which is where the 'virgin trainer' idea came from. Take a shy guy too scared to ever ask anyone out, and make him realise that he *is* worth dating - at which point he realises I'm not The One. That the few things we had in common weren't *enough*, and being single for a while wasn't the end of the world. Sometimes it's just been a matter of us both changing over time and wanting different things (for a start, I don't want kids). Sometimes the distances were just too much and we hardly ever got to see each other. In one case, his insecurity just got worse over time, to the point where he was convinced that every man I ever met I wanted to cheat on him with. One was just absolutely stupid with money. In both cases, neither would have been prepared to accept that this was a problem until I made it absolutely crystal clear by ending the relationship.
Something that occurred to me tonight - out of the guys I work with, there are at least three I would have, in the past, considered relationship possibilities had they been single and not work colleagues. One, great fun, really cheery, enthusiastic about a bunch of stuff I like - but also very much a family man. He wouldn't have been able to settle for a woman who doesn't want kids. Another - great to talk to about anything, basically nice, but a bit shy and quiet. He'll not start a conversation in the pub, he'll wait for one to happen around him - but again, a family man, and probably too quiet. I do like to go out and be loud occasionally. The third - very intelligent, confident, and full of interesting conversation on a huge range of subjects - but far too focused on work. I'd want to spend more time than he has available. There are so many factors in what makes someone choose someone to date, that trying to break it down to simple, nebulous concepts like 'nice' and 'arsehole' just doesn't work.

Forget women. Only men know what men need. :D
Its true your not a man until youve had a man ;)

I know it's been a while since this thread was last posted in, but I figured I'd post some links.

http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/g_hols/Niceguy
http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~jenf/writing/rant04.html
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/notniceguys.shtml (funny site--sort of ;) )

Need any more proof that nice guys have no chance in America? :D