NationStates Jolt Archive

*in yet another Karl Rovian dirty trick in order to divert attention away from the fact that our President is a coward who refused to do his duty when it was his turn to serve but who doesnt hesitate to send other peoples kids to die in the new Veitnam war he started

LA Times IDs GOP Attorney As First To Raise Doubts on Documents
Within hours of the 60 Minutes broadcast questions arose about the documents on the conservative Free Republic website by an anonymous writer known as Bankhead who The Los Angeles Times revealed to be Harry MacDougald. MacDougald is an Atlanta lawyer with strong ties to conservative Republican causes and who helped draft the petition urging the Arkansas Supreme Court to disbar President Clinton after the Monica Lewinsky scandal. MacDoughald's background is expected to fuel speculation that Republicans were behind the forged documents in an effort to undermine reports that Bush received preferential treatment in the National Guard more than 30 years ago. Newsweek is reporting that the documents may have been sent anonymously to former Texas National Guardsman -- and Bush critic -- Bill Burkett, who then shared the documents with 60 Minutes.
www.LATimes.com

Damn, you are the most partisan, biased little liar I have every seen. God you could give Micheal Moore a run for his money.

Damn, you are the most partisan, biased little liar I have every seen. God you could give Micheal Moore a run for his money.
fight fire with fire :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Damn, you are the most partisan, biased little liar I have every seen. God you could give Micheal Moore a run for his money.

At least he didn't get it from democracy.org. Heh.

At least he didn't get it from democracy.org. Heh.
Interestingly, this is his least moronic post yet. Of course, that's because of how low he sets the bar.

Strange, that article appears to be no where on latimes.com.

*in yet another Karl Rovian dirty trick in order to divert attention away from the fact that our President is a coward who refused to do his duty when it was his turn to serve but who doesnt hesitate to send other peoples kids to die in the new Veitnam war he started

LA Times IDs GOP Attorney As First To Raise Doubts on Documents
Within hours of the 60 Minutes broadcast questions arose about the documents on the conservative Free Republic website by an anonymous writer known as Bankhead who The Los Angeles Times revealed to be Harry MacDougald. MacDougald is an Atlanta lawyer with strong ties to conservative Republican causes and who helped draft the petition urging the Arkansas Supreme Court to disbar President Clinton after the Monica Lewinsky scandal. MacDoughald's background is expected to fuel speculation that Republicans were behind the forged documents in an effort to undermine reports that Bush received preferential treatment in the National Guard more than 30 years ago. Newsweek is reporting that the documents may have been sent anonymously to former Texas National Guardsman -- and Bush critic -- Bill Burkett, who then shared the documents with 60 Minutes.
www.LATimes.com

Well if the DNC and CBS are too retarded to tell when they are being had, then I say touche' to whoever set them up. They should make whoever did this the RNC chairperson.


BTW brainiac, CBS asked how many experts about these documents?

Strange, that article appears to be no where on latimes.com.


Good point, I wonder where this "Web-Headed Weasel" gets his ideas? Maybe the crackpipe?

Well if the DNC and CBS are too retarded to tell when they are being had, then I say touche' to whoever set them up. They should make whoever did this the RNC chairperson.


BTW brainiac, CBS asked how many experts about these documents?
it was a plot spearheaded by Karl Rove the biggest scumbag in American politics today

it was a plot spearheaded by Karl Rove the biggest scumbag in American politics today
Dude, admit it! Your liberal friends goofed up.

it was a plot spearheaded by Karl Rove the biggest scumbag in American politics today

No that would be James "I don't have a snakes head" Carville.


"These people (GW and Cheney) are nobodies!" James Carville

Well if Rove did set them up, will you state that the DNC and CBS are filled with many, many Faulknerian Idiot Man-Child types?

Dude, admit it! Your liberal friends goofed up.
not really--Dan Rather has nothing to apologize for, he knows Bush is a coward who never served.The republicans should apologize to CBS for exploiting Rather in such a partisan manner with documents the republicans themselves forged :mad:

not really--Dan Rather has nothing to apologize for, he knows Bush is a coward who never served.The republicans should apologize to CBS for exploiting Rather in such a partisan manner with documents the republicans themselves forged :mad:
I like how it's Bush's fault that CBS lied about him. HOW DARE HE!

No that would be James "I don't have a snakes head" Carville.


"These people (GW and Cheney) are nobodies!" James Carville

Well if Rove did set them up, will you state that the DNC and CBS are filled with many, many Faulknerian Idiot Man-Child types?
whats a Faulknerian idiot-man child?

whats a Faulknerian idiot-man child?
your mama.

I like how it's Bush's fault that CBS lied about him. HOW DARE HE!
It is Bushs fault cause Bush planted the lie at CBS in an attempt to discredit the critics of Bushs war cowardice

What the hell? That makes no sense!

your mama.
sounds like a better description of our Coward in Cheif lol

your mama.
bah, add something to the thread or go home.

Insulting him does nothing but lower yourself to his level.

What the hell? That makes no sense!
it makes perfect sense if you study the way Karl Rove operates. Hes the master of the Reverse Smear

sounds like a better description of our Coward in Cheif lol
God you suck at spelling. And even if you hate the president, please respect him and refer to him as the Commander in Chief. Even though I hate Kerry, if he's elected, I will still refer to him as the Commander in Chief.

it makes perfect sense if you study the way Karl Rove operates. Hes the master of the Reverse Smear
Occum's Razor my friend.

God you suck at spelling. And even if you hate the president, please respect him and refer to him as the Commander in Chief. Even though I hate Kerry, if he's elected, I will still refer to him as the Commander in Chief.
It has to do with the fact that it's possible to respect the office, while not respecting the man who holds the office.
Happened to me when Clinton was in office and I was in the military. I still saluted (and meant the salute) the President.

I love how people defended these documents even after it became increasingly obvious that they were forged, just because they wanted to grasp at more straws to bash bush with. :rolleyes:

*in yet another Karl Rovian dirty trick in order to divert attention away from the fact that our President is a coward who refused to do his duty when it was his turn to serve but who doesnt hesitate to send other peoples kids to die in the new Veitnam war he started

LA Times IDs GOP Attorney As First To Raise Doubts on Documents
Within hours of the 60 Minutes broadcast questions arose about the documents on the conservative Free Republic website by an anonymous writer known as Bankhead who The Los Angeles Times revealed to be Harry MacDougald. MacDougald is an Atlanta lawyer with strong ties to conservative Republican causes and who helped draft the petition urging the Arkansas Supreme Court to disbar President Clinton after the Monica Lewinsky scandal. MacDoughald's background is expected to fuel speculation that Republicans were behind the forged documents in an effort to undermine reports that Bush received preferential treatment in the National Guard more than 30 years ago. Newsweek is reporting that the documents may have been sent anonymously to former Texas National Guardsman -- and Bush critic -- Bill Burkett, who then shared the documents with 60 Minutes.
www.LATimes.com


and who's fault is it that no one checked their facts before running it to every person who would broadcast it? You can send all the anonymous documents to whoever you want, bad-mouthing whoever you want, but it is then THEIR job to CHECK their facts BEFORE telling the world about it.

It is Bushs fault cause Bush planted the lie at CBS in an attempt to discredit the critics of Bushs war cowardice


You know, sometimes I think people give liberals a bad name, and you my friend, happen to be one of those. Just admit it, CBS goofed up. A few of the experts they approached questioned the legitimacy of the documents and they didn't listen.
You know there's more to being liberal than blaming everything on conservatives...

Bush hasnt earned any respect and hes not my President since he was never elected --hes a treasonous pig and a pathological liar and he deserves the same amount of "respect" that any terrorist should get--The President is a SCUM and should be egged and spat upon wherever he goes-America will lose every war under his divisive reign
Yeah, and then the Secret Service will nail your ass.

I love how people defended these documents even after it became increasingly obvious that they were forged, just because they wanted to grasp at more straws to bash bush with. :rolleyes:
whats truely discusting is the way republicans would stoop to this level of forging documents in order to try and smear people who know Bush ran from his obligations during Veitnam

Oh, come on. You have to admit that it certainly would be a brilliant ploy by Rove, if he did it. And it fits his modus operandi. And the Dems are dumb enough and desperate enough to buy it.

I mean, the guy reads Machiavelli as if it were a textbook.

You have to admire the intellect, even if Rove is Mephistopheles incarnate.

Whomever said that we should respect him and call him the Commander-in-Chief... lmao. I would first of all point out that Coward-in-Chief is an innacurrate statment, he has been quiet bold since he has become Commander-in-Chief (before I have no clue, though I lean slightly towards cowardly) so I sympathize with you on them refering to him as such.

However, he is not insulting the President of the United States, he is in fact insulting a political canidate of said country, as I myself along with most assuredly you have done to his opponent.

And finally, I would like to point out that showing respect for elected officals (or appointed ones) is something that one does not have to do,and in my case I have never done so nor intend to at any point.

Bush hasnt earned any respect and hes not my President since he was never elected --hes a treasonous pig and a pathological liar and he deserves the same amount of "respect" that any terrorist should get--The President is a SCUM and should be egged and spat upon wherever he goes-America will lose every war under his divisive reign
Never elected? How pray tell did he lose the electoral college?

and who's fault is it that no one checked their facts before running it to every person who would broadcast it? You can send all the anonymous documents to whoever you want, bad-mouthing whoever you want, but it is then THEIR job to CHECK their facts BEFORE telling the world about it.
its already common knowledge that Bush didnt serve in Veitnam--who wouldve thought that republicans would actually forge documents proving the truth in a wormy attempt to discredit the truth and elevate yet another Bush lie?

You know, sometimes I think people give liberals a bad name, and you my friend, happen to be one of those. Just admit it, CBS goofed up. A few of the experts they approached questioned the legitimacy of the documents and they didn't listen.
You know there's more to being liberal than blaming everything on conservatives...
your clueless to the ways karl Rove operates--he needs people who think like you

Yeah, and then the Secret Service will nail your ass.
the secret service cant nail the asses of the entire world who hates Bush

the secret service cant nail the asses of the entire world who hates Bush
Yeah but if you chuck something at Bush then they will nail yours.

Oh, come on. You have to admit that it certainly would be a brilliant ploy by Rove, if he did it. And it fits his modus operandi. And the Dems are dumb enough and desperate enough to buy it.

I mean, the guy reads Machiavelli as if it were a textbook.

You have to admire the intellect, even if Rove is Mephistopheles incarnate.
its good to see someone else here is aware of Roves wormy history--hes the father of all Lies

Hun, Its your Conscience!

This is not a plot by any republican. Even the experts stated that they COULD NOT verify these documents but Rather went with the story anyway. CBS is now admitting they shouldn't have and Rather is apologizing for running with it.

They have more integrity than I thought possible.

Please give people the benefit of the doubt :D

You think that's a bombshell. I have it on good authority that Marxism itself was a hoax - that 100 million deaths that resulted was from a book, Das Kapital, that what actually ghost-written by Karl Rove to embarrass the Left.

No need to check my sources. You heard it here first. :D

Whomever said that we should respect him and call him the Commander-in-Chief... lmao. I would first of all point out that Coward-in-Chief is an innacurrate statment, he has been quiet bold since he has become Commander-in-Chief (before I have no clue, though I lean slightly towards cowardly) so I sympathize with you on them refering to him as such.

However, he is not insulting the President of the United States, he is in fact insulting a political canidate of said country, as I myself along with most assuredly you have done to his opponent.

And finally, I would like to point out that showing respect for elected officals (or appointed ones) is something that one does not have to do,and in my case I have never done so nor intend to at any point.
elected officials are supposed to respect the people not the other way around

Never elected? How pray tell did he lose the electoral college?
He was appointed by political hacks on the Supreme court one of whose wife worked on his campaign

He was appointed by political hacks on the Supreme court one of whose wife worked on his campaign

Actually, SCOTUS found the Florida Supreme Court to be rewriting Florida Election laws from the Bench. Thus they had to stop it.

If you like MKULTRA, I can provide a link to it if you want it?

You think that's a bombshell. I have it on good authority that Marxism itself was a hoax - that 100 million deaths that resulted was from a book, Das Kapital, that what actually ghost-written by Karl Rove to embarrass the Left.

No need to check my sources. You heard it here first. :D
I notise the way FD and you are both laffing--seems like you know what Im saying is true too and your cracking yourselves up typing your partisan spin knowing full well thats its only thru Lies that Bush wins

That was exactly my point, that we do not need to respect him but he needs to respect us.

Something he has proven himself to be incapable of doing, and most likly his opponent will also be incapable of doing it as well.

None the less, I hope for a Karry victory because at least he will lead to fewer deaths and (hopefully) vast strides towards political (and social) freedoms for all.

In a press conference at 9 AM this morning, John Kerry admitted his staff had been involved in the forging of the documents.

In a followup press conference at 9:15, Senator Kerry said he was mistaken..they only wished they had been involved in the forging of the documents.

In a 9:30 interview, Senator Kerry said he was taken out of context, and that while he was against the forging of any documents, he was all for anything that smeared his opponent.

At 9:45, Senator Kerry flatly denied any knowledge of any forged documents that may have occurred in any incident other than military hospital admissions in the Vietnam War.

At 10:00 AM, a spokesman for Senator Kerry's campaign said that quoting anything the Senator had to say was irrelevant and a waste of time, everyone should just look the other way, and vote for John Edwards for VP, since he was merely a rich lawyer, not an oilman.

I notise the way FD and you are both laffing--seems like you know what Im saying is true too and your cracking yourselves up typing your partisan spin knowing full well thats its only thru Lies that Bush wins

I have noticed your not addressing my points MK!

Scared, that I can actually back up what I stated about SCOTUS not to mention what both Dan Rather and CBS are BOTH saying?

Actually, SCOTUS found the Florida Supreme Court to be rewriting Florida Election laws from the Bench. Thus they had to stop it.

If you like MKULTRA, I can provide a link to it if you want it?
NO

That was exactly my point, that we do not need to respect him but he needs to respect us.

Something he has proven himself to be incapable of doing, and most likly his opponent will also be incapable of doing it as well.

None the less, I hope for a Karry victory because at least he will lead to fewer deaths and (hopefully) vast strides towards political (and social) freedoms for all.
Kerry can restore credability to America that Bush destroyed in the eyes of the world

NO

Good, because it would only have embarrassed your arguements anyway! That has to be the First intelligent post from you in quite sometime :)

I'm proud of you!

In a press conference at 9 AM this morning, John Kerry admitted his staff had been involved in the forging of the documents.

In a followup press conference at 9:15, Senator Kerry said he was mistaken..they only wished they had been involved in the forging of the documents.

In a 9:30 interview, Senator Kerry said he was taken out of context, and that while he was against the forging of any documents, he was all for anything that smeared his opponent.

At 9:45, Senator Kerry flatly denied any knowledge of any forged documents that may have occurred in any incident other than military hospital admissions in the Vietnam War.

At 10:00 AM, a spokesman for Senator Kerry's campaign said that quoting anything the Senator had to say was irrelevant and a waste of time, everyone should just look the other way, and vote for John Edwards for VP, since he was merely a rich lawyer, not an oilman.
does your fable have a point? Edwards was a lawyer who fought corporate criminals who preyed upon the people--the same corporations that Bush lets steal from us all now

I notise the way FD and you are both laffing--seems like you know what Im saying is true too and your cracking yourselves up typing your partisan spin knowing full well thats its only thru Lies that Bush wins

Oh, I know it's true. Just like the entire communist scheme being a Republican plot to defame and humiliate the Left. Really.

Come now, comrade. You don't think we'd be so stupid as to slaughter the very proletariat we claimed to champion? Be serious! The whole thing was a scheme between the Zionists and Big Business - all you need do is look at how communist China is run to see what I mean.

No mind control for this monkey, no sirree Bob. I've got the tin foil hat, firmly in place. Count me as another brother in arms, MK. :fluffle: ;)

Words can't express how much this thread sucks . . . but they'll have to do.

I have noticed your not addressing my points MK!

Scared, that I can actually back up what I stated about SCOTUS not to mention what both Dan Rather and CBS are BOTH saying?
I already am aware that CBS and Dan Rather know that they were misled by republican forgery

MKULTA while I agree with you on this point I still feel that he is a less than perfect canidate (I would have prefered Dean) but that is one of my major flaws I demean everything that is not perfect (including my self).

Therefore even though I personally hope for Karry I know that he like all politicial canidates will prove to be a disappointment.

Good, because it would only have embarrassed your arguements anyway! That has to be the First intelligent post from you in quite sometime :)

I'm proud of you!
Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.

I notise the way FD and you are both laffing--seems like you know what Im saying is true too and your cracking yourselves up typing your partisan spin knowing full well thats its only thru Lies that Bush wins

Oh, I know it's true. Just like the entire communist scheme being a Republican plot to defame and humiliate the Left. Really.

Come now, comrade. You don't think we'd be so stupid as to slaughter the very proletariat we claimed to champion? Be serious! The whole thing was a scheme between the Zionists and Big Business - all you need do is look at how communist China is run to see what I mean.

No mind control for this monkey, no sirree Bob. I've got the tin foil hat, firmly in place. Count me as another brother in arms, MK. :fluffle: ;)
I think you better go back to spy school and work on your approach

Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.

Fine! At least I can back up what I'm saying! Can you?

Words can't express how much this thread sucks . . . but they'll have to do.
I have to agree-the Truth gives birth to Hate

Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.
I'm sorry, I forgot fact was no longer true and truth may be whatever you represent it to be. Why don't you shut up so I can listen to some liberals who can actually argue from a rational standpoint? I still hope there are some out there.

MKULTA while I agree with you on this point I still feel that he is a less than perfect canidate (I would have prefered Dean) but that is one of my major flaws I demean everything that is not perfect (including my self).

Therefore even though I personally hope for Karry I know that he like all politicial canidates will prove to be a disappointment.
Dean was my first choice too but he wasnt a Bonesman so the corporate media had to assassinate him

I have just one thing to say:

Gimme some of that stuff you're smokin. Now.

*in yet another Karl Rovian dirty trick in order to divert attention away from the fact that our President is a coward who refused to do his duty when it was his turn to serve but who doesnt hesitate to send other peoples kids to die in the new Veitnam war he started

LA Times IDs GOP Attorney As First To Raise Doubts on Documents
Within hours of the 60 Minutes broadcast questions arose about the documents on the conservative Free Republic website by an anonymous writer known as Bankhead who The Los Angeles Times revealed to be Harry MacDougald. MacDougald is an Atlanta lawyer with strong ties to conservative Republican causes and who helped draft the petition urging the Arkansas Supreme Court to disbar President Clinton after the Monica Lewinsky scandal. MacDoughald's background is expected to fuel speculation that Republicans were behind the forged documents in an effort to undermine reports that Bush received preferential treatment in the National Guard more than 30 years ago. Newsweek is reporting that the documents may have been sent anonymously to former Texas National Guardsman -- and Bush critic -- Bill Burkett, who then shared the documents with 60 Minutes.
www.LATimes.com

Damn straight. Rove is a champion of a Republican media strategy referred to as inoculation - thought up by his old mentor, who was Nixon's chief of staff -which involves identifying an issue that will be damaging to your candidate, manufacturing easily refutable evidence, releasing it, then rebutting it. But here, let's forget the documents at all. Let's ignore them, period. Here, then, is a list of UNDISPUTED facts in the Bush-Guard story. These are from documents released by the Pentagon, in response to a federal court order. The list was compiled by Salon's Eric Boehlert:

Consider the following anomalies:

(Note that statements below that certain documents do not exist, or that Bush failed to obtain proper authorization, are based on the White House's repeated insistence that all relevant Bush military documents have been made public. Some of these documents, of course, may yet turn up.)


Bush flew for the last time on April 16, 1972. Upon entering the Guard, Bush agreed to fly for 60 months. After his training was complete, he owed 53 months of flying.

But he flew for only 22 of those 53 months.


Upon being accepted for pilot training, Bush promised to serve with his parent (Texas) Guard unit for five years once he completed his pilot training.

But Bush served as a pilot with his parent unit for just two years.


In May 1972 Bush left the Houston Guard base for Alabama. According to Air Force regulations, Bush was supposed to obtain prior authorization before leaving Texas to join a new Guard unit in Alabama.

But Bush failed to get the authorization.


In requesting a permanent transfer to a nonflying unit in Alabama in 1972, Bush was supposed to sign an acknowledgment that he received relocation counseling.

But no such document exists.


He was supposed to receive a certification of satisfactory participation from his unit.

But Bush did not.


He was supposed to sign and give a letter of resignation to his Texas unit commander.

But Bush did not.


He was supposed to receive discharge orders from the Texas Air National Guard adjutant general.

But Bush did not.


He was supposed to receive new assignment orders for the Air Force Reserves.

But Bush did not.


On his transfer request Bush was asked to list his "permanent address."

But he wrote down a post office box number for the campaign he was working for on a temporary basis.


On his transfer request Bush was asked to list his Air Force specialty code.

But Bush, an F-102 pilot, erroneously wrote the code for an F-89 or F-94 pilot. Both planes had been retired from service at the time. Bush, an officer, made this mistake more than once on the same form.


On May 26, 1972, Lt. Col. Reese Bricken, commander of the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama, informed Bush that a transfer to his nonflying unit would be unsuitable for a fully trained pilot such as he was, and that Bush would not be able to fulfill any of his remaining two years of flight obligation.

But Bush pressed on with his transfer request nonetheless.


Bush's transfer request to the 9921st was eventually denied by the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, which meant he was still obligated to attend training sessions one weekend a month with his Texas unit in Houston.

But Bush failed to attend weekend drills in May, June, July, August and September. He also failed to request permission to make up those days at the time.


According to Air Force regulations, "[a] member whose attendance record is poor must be closely monitored. When the unexcused absences reach one less than the maximum permitted [sic] he must be counseled and a record made of the counseling. If the member is unavailable he must be advised by personal letter."

But there is no record that Bush ever received such counseling, despite the fact that he missed drills for months on end.


Bush's unit was obligated to report in writing to the Personnel Center at Randolph Air Force Base whenever a monthly review of records showed unsatisfactory participation for an officer.

But his unit never reported Bush's absenteeism to Randolph Air Force Base.


In July 1972 Bush failed to take a mandatory Guard physical exam, which is a serious offense for a Guard pilot. The move should have prompted the formation of a Flying Evaluation Board to investigation the circumstances surrounding Bush's failure.

But no such FEB was convened.


Once Bush was grounded for failing to take a physical, his commanders could have filed a report on why the suspension should be lifted.

But Bush's commanders made no such request.


On Sept. 15, 1972, Bush was ordered to report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, the deputy commander of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery, Ala., to participate in training on the weekends of Oct. 7-8 and Nov. 4-5, 1972.

But there's no evidence Bush ever showed up on those dates. In 2000, Turnipseed told the Boston Globe that Bush did not report for duty. (A self-professed Bush supporter, Turnipseed has since backed off from his categorical claim.)


However, according to the White House-released pay records, which are unsigned, Bush was credited for serving in Montgomery on Oct. 28-29 and Nov. 11-14, 1972. Those makeup dates should have produced a paper trail, including Bush's formal request as well as authorization and supervision documents.

But no such documents exist, and the dates he was credited for do not match the dates when the Montgomery unit assembled for drills.


When Guardsmen miss monthly drills, or "unit training assemblies" (UTAs), they are allowed to make them up through substitute service and earn crucial points toward their service record. Drills are worth one point on a weekday and two points on each weekend day. For Bush's substitute service on Nov. 13-14, 1972, he was awarded four points, two for each day.

But Nov. 13 and 14 were both weekdays. He should have been awarded two points.


Bush earned six points for service on Jan. 4-6, 1973 -- a Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

But he should have earned four points, one each for Thursday and Friday, two for Saturday.


Weekday training was the exception in the Guard. For example, from May 1968 to May 1972, when Bush was in good standing, he was not credited with attending a single weekday UTA.

But after 1972, when Bush's absenteeism accelerated, nearly half of his credited UTAs were for weekdays.


To maintain unit cohesiveness, the parameters for substitute service are tightly controlled; drills must be made up within 15 days immediately before, or 30 days immediately after, the originally scheduled drill, according to Guard regulations at the time.

But more than half of the substitute service credits Bush received fell outside that clear time frame. In one case, he made up a drill nine weeks in advance.


On Sept. 29, 1972, Bush was formally grounded for failing to take a flight physical. The letter, written by Maj. Gen. Francis Greenlief, chief of the National Guard Bureau, ordered Bush to acknowledge in writing that he had received word of his grounding.

But no such written acknowledgment exists. In 2000, Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Boston Globe that Bush couldn't remember if he'd ever been grounded.


Bartlett also told the Boston Globe that Bush didn't undergo a physical while in Alabama because his family doctor was in Houston.

But only Air Force flight surgeons can give flight physicals to pilots.


Guard members are required to take a physical exam every 12 months.

But Bush's last Guard physical was in May 1971. Bush was formally discharged from the service in November 1974, which means he went without a required physical for 42 months.


Bush's unsatisfactory participation in the fall of 1972 should have prompted the Texas Air National Guard to write to his local draft board and inform the board that Bush had become eligible for the draft. Guard units across the country contacted draft boards every Sept. 15 to update them on the status of local Guard members. Bush's absenteeism should have prompted what's known as a DD Form 44, "Record of Military Status of Registrant."

But there is no record of any such document having been sent to Bush's draft board in Houston.


Records released by the White House note that Bush received a military dental exam in Alabama on Jan. 6, 1973.

But Bush's request to serve in Alabama covered only September, October and November 1972. Why he would still be serving in Alabama months after that remains unclear.


Each of Bush's numerous substitute service requests should have formed a lengthy paper trail consisting of AF Form 40a's, with the name of the officer who authorized the training in advance, the signature of the officer who supervised the training and Bush's own signature.

But no such documents exist.


During his last year with the Texas Air National Guard, Bush missed nearly two-thirds of his mandatory UTAs and made up some of them with substitute service. Guard regulations allowed substitute service only in circumstances that are "beyond the control" of the Guard member.

But neither Bush nor the Texas Air National Guard has ever explained what the uncontrollable circumstances were that forced him to miss the majority of his assigned drills in his last year.


Bush supposedly returned to his Houston unit in April 1973 and served two days.

But at the end of April, when Bush's Texas commanders had to rate him for their annual report, they wrote that they could not do so: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report."


On June 29, 1973, the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver instructed Bush's commanders to get additional information from his Alabama unit, where he had supposedly been training, in order to better evaluate Bush's duty. The ARPC gave Texas a deadline of Aug. 6 to get the information.

But Bush's commanders ignored the request.


Bush was credited for attending four days of UTAs with his Texas unit July 16-19, 1973. That was good for eight crucial points.

But that's not possible. Guard units hold only two UTAs each month -- one on a Saturday and one on a Sunday. Although Bush may well have made up four days, they should not all have been counted as UTAs, since they occur just twice a month. The other days are known as "Appropriate Duty," or APDY.


On July 30, 1973, Bush, preparing to attend Harvard Business School, signed a statement acknowledging it was his responsibility to find another unit in which to serve out the remaining nine months of his commitment.

But Bush never contacted another unit in Massachusetts in which to fulfill his obligation.

Thank you, Mr. Boehlert. Note that the "Killian memos" are not included in this list. These are undisputable FACTS. Bottom line, people, is that Bush has not been honest about his Guard duty, that unanswered questions remain, and that the whole "He said, he said" about the Killian memos is OBSCURING the FACTS of the matter.

Fine! At least I can back up what I'm saying! Can you?
I invite you to read the ENTIRE first post I used to start this thread ;)

I invite you to read the ENTIRE first post I used to start this thread ;)

oh but I did and I even clicked the link! But as someone has stated, it doesn't appear to exist!

I think you better go back to spy school and work on your approach

I'm sensing a serious lack of love here. Really bad vibes, dude. Does anyone else feel it?

Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.

WOW! This guy is sooo L33T! Kewl man! That's laying it to those reactionary tossers! :gundge:

Badges? Badges? Anti-Establishment ubermensch like me and MK don't need no stinking badges! :p

MKULTRA, I just want to say thank you for providing me with something to laugh at for a while. Thank you for exercising your right to free speech, so that I may exercise mine to chuckle while reading your insane brain-washed ramblings. Good luck trying to finally pass grade school this year. Keep up the good work, maybe Ted Turner will hire you someday.

When I heard that people were trashing the memo on a blog immediately after the CBS report, I knew right away that blog was called Free Republic.
When the truth finally comes out, these guys are all going to jail.

Reminds me of the New York times. Maybe Karl Rove did that also. CBS like every newstation wants to get a story and an exclusive is even better.

Now personally I think whoever came up with the idiotic idea of looking up someones record from 30 years ago needs a real beating. Soon you are going to look at childhood records. "Oh, look here, Bush shoved a kid in 5th grade. He's been a bully from the start.'

"See Kerry told his friends he would join the soccer team, but didnt. Flip flopper from the beginning"

"Kerry cried as a baby. That shows his attitude towards the terrorists."

Do I care if Bush skipped out of the National Guard? I actually congratualate him for that. It was a stupid war and he didnt play a part in it.

Besides I am sure the damage has been done already. Like SBVT, both turned out to be false, but both worked.

Reminds me of the New York times. Maybe Karl Rove did that also. CBS like every newstation wants to get a story and an exclusive is even better.

Now personally I think whoever came up with the idiotic idea of looking up someones record from 30 years ago needs a real beating. Soon you are going to look at childhood records. "Oh, look here, Bush shoved a kid in 5th grade. He's been a bully from the start.'

"See Kerry told his friends he would join the soccer team, but didnt. Flip flopper from the beginning"

"Kerry cried as a baby. That shows his attitude towards the terrorists."

Do I care if Bush skipped out of the National Guard? I actually congratualate him for that. It was a stupid war and he didnt play a part in it.

I actually don't have a problem with his skipping out on the draft or active duty. My dad was lucky enough not to get drafted and my uncle actually went to seminary for a year just to avoid it. Bush abused the system so he didn't have to go. That's fine. But at least my dad and my uncle are honest about not going - they didn't believe in the war and they didn't want to die. They made a personal choice, as did Bush, and honestly, I can't say I'd do differently. So, no judgement there. Those who served (like my grandfather) and those that serve now are brave men and women and no judgment upon them is implied.

However, what is at issue, is Bush's dishonesty. He claims to have fulfilled his contractual obligation, when overwhelming evidence shows he did not. He has made his Guard service an issue by using it in this, his third ever campaign for public office. He should then just be honest about it. If he can't be, then he shouldn't allow it to be an issue. And if his proxies are going to make his opponents service an issue, then Bush's (or lack thereof) service is indeed an open question.

Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.

Holy fuck. You've really outdone yourself this time. Repeat after me: "He who asserts, must prove."

When I heard that people were trashing the memo on a blog immediately after the CBS report, I knew right away that blog was called Free Republic.
When the truth finally comes out, these guys are all going to jail.
they didnt go to jail when they revealed Valerie Plames ID--Bushs brother Neil even robbed a bank and still walks a free man

Thank god Clinton didn't dodge the draft and Kerry's not a war criminal. :headbang:

Reminds me of the New York times. Maybe Karl Rove did that also. CBS like every newstation wants to get a story and an exclusive is even better.

Now personally I think whoever came up with the idiotic idea of looking up someones record from 30 years ago needs a real beating. Soon you are going to look at childhood records. "Oh, look here, Bush shoved a kid in 5th grade. He's been a bully from the start.'

"See Kerry told his friends he would join the soccer team, but didnt. Flip flopper from the beginning"

"Kerry cried as a baby. That shows his attitude towards the terrorists."

Do I care if Bush skipped out of the National Guard? I actually congratualate him for that. It was a stupid war and he didnt play a part in it.
fine but then he shouldnt turn around and start his own veitnam war when he wouldnt go to one himself

Holy fuck. You've really outdone yourself this time. Repeat after me: "He who asserts, must prove."
its proved by a certain pattern of behavior by Karl Rove which is as predictable as any mathematical formula

Thank god Clinton didn't dodge the draft and Kerry's not a war criminal. :headbang:
Clinton didnt go to nam for moral reasons and your correct, Kerry was a war hero and even saved the life of a REPUBLICAN in veitnam

fine but then he shouldnt turn around and start his own veitnam war when he wouldnt go to one himself

And Iraq is vietnam how? Last I heard, Baghdad fell and the only ones causing trouble are Al Sadr's Militia and Zarqawi!

Man, I really need to stop watching Politics.

its proved by a certain pattern of behavior by Karl Rove which is as predictable as any mathematical formula

Describe this pattern of behavior, please.

And Iraq is vietnam how? Last I heard, Baghdad fell and the only ones causing trouble are Al Sadr's Militia and Zarqawi!

Man, I really need to stop watching Politics.
its veitnam in the sense that Bushs lack of an exit strategy got us stuck in a Quagmire--2 more Americans now face being beheaded in Iraq now cause of Bushs refusal to plan for what happens

Describe this pattern of behavior, please.
Ok I will -I just need a bit of time to write it down

its veitnam in the sense that Bushs lack of an exit strategy got us stuck in a Quagmire--2 more Americans now face being beheaded in Iraq now cause of Bushs refusal to plan for what happens

Unless you count the one that was beheaded earlier!

Now as for an exit strategy. Wait till January! Iraq will have free and open elections by then. The terrorists are doing everything they can to disrupt it and I am betting that they don't succeed.

Unless you count the one that was beheaded earlier!

Now as for an exit strategy. Wait till January! Iraq will have free and open elections by then. The terrorists are doing everything they can to disrupt it and I am betting that they don't succeed.

Why do you even bother to respond to this individual? There are plenty of people on both sides with legitimate views, but this person is not even remotely sane.

Why do you even bother to respond to this individual? There are plenty of people on both sides with legitimate views, but this person is not even remotely sane.
as if your being a supporter of Bush makes you qualified to judge another persons sanity :rolleyes:

oh but I did and I even clicked the link! But as someone has stated, it doesn't appear to exist!

To be fair, the article does exist. You just have to search for it, and since the LA Times' website requires registration, that's not easy to do. The article is here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-buckhead18sep18,1,1674359.story

Of course, the article only says that the guy who first raised questions about the documents is "Harry W. MacDougald, an Atlanta lawyer with strong ties to conservative Republican causes", and offers no proof that Karl Rove or any White House staff or the Bush campaign had anything to do with it. The closest it comes is that the revelation of this guy's identity is "likely to fuel speculation" in this supposed conspiracy, which is one of those little ways in which biased writers get their readers thinking in a certain way.

For some, the revelation that the person who first raised questions publicly about the documents is a conservative activist is proof enough that there is some conspiracy here to discredit CBS News and the idea that Bush did not fulfill his military obligations. I, for one, use my tin foil for cooking. The ranting and raving in this thread has been good for a laugh, though.

as if your being a supporter of Bush makes you qualified to judge another persons sanity :rolleyes:

Who says I am a Bush supporter? in any case, I am judging your sanity based on your posts.

BTW, I am a Bush supporter(reluctantly) in this particular election, But when I compare your posts to other peoples(liberal) you come of as some frothing at the mouth lunatic.

Who says I am a Bush supporter? in any case, I am judging your sanity based on your posts.

BTW, I am a Bush supporter(reluctantly) in this particular election, But when I compare your posts to other peoples(liberal) you come of as some frothing at the mouth lunatic.
Im sure Jesus sounded the exact same way to the Pharissees

Im sure Jesus sounded the exact same way to the Pharissees
um ok. I guess plenty of people who live in ssylums also sound like that.

This has gone over the top. First, some hail it as more evidence against Bush. Now that it is shown to be a forgery, this extremely tiny, yet radical, minority prefers to live in la-la land. If something went wrong, blame it all on the Republicans! That's the sportsmanship we need, baby.

um ok. I guess plenty of people who live in ssylums also sound like that.
and many would sound just like U2

This has gone over the top. First, some hail it as more evidence against Bush. Now that it is shown to be a forgery, this extremely tiny, yet radical, minority prefers to live in la-la land. If something went wrong, blame it all on the Republicans! That's the sportsmanship we need, baby.
no ones denying that their forgeries-we just want to know why the republicans are engaging in these dirty tactics

I'd rather get a kushy fighter pilot role at home then go to war, come back and betray all the men that protected me in that war to make myself look good to the anti-war public.

Name another reason why Kerry would call the rest of the US army pillagers, rapists, and genocidal war criminals?

MKULTRA, you are ridiculous. Your arguments are based on Circular Logic, nothing more. You have no way of proving anything you say, and I'm certain that people supporting President Bush or Senator Kerry are getting sick of you.

no ones denying that their forgeries-we just want to know why the republicans are engaging in these dirty tactics

seriously, go take your meds, or petition your therapist to up the dosage.

The documents were created by Bill Burkett. The documents were sent to CBS from a kinkos by his house. Are you trying to say that Karl Rove somehow is some sort of superninja or has the psychic ability to teleport anywhere anytime and that he made Burkett a scapegoat by going to the Kinkos by his house? . Burkett is also a rabid Bush hater. It's so plain and clear who sent them. That is nothing but pure ignorance.

Here's a thing on how Kerry campaign staff possibly coordinated with CBS and Burkett on this. I say possibly because they deny a lot of it. But a good thing to consider.
More on the story. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040921/ap_on_el_pr/cbs_guard_kerry_1&printer=1)

I also question Dan Rather's decision to defend something as false as this for so long even though the best expert CBS hired said that he didn't believe they were authentic because of font differences....

Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.

irony (i.ron.y) 3b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irony

I'd rather get a kushy fighter pilot role at home then go to war, come back and betray all the men that protected me in that war to make myself look good to the anti-war public.

Name another reason why Kerry would call the rest of the US army pillagers, rapists, and genocidal war criminals?
he also called for more veterans rights and benefits--all Bush ever did for vets was to try to cut their pay and closing VA hospitals, serving vets plastic turkeys on Thanksgiving and for cheap photo-ops and using them as cannon fodder in his special interest wars. Kerry was IN nam so he knows firsthand what its like to be in the kind of war Bush started in Iraq. Kerry can make it all better

At least he didn't get it from democracy.org. Heh.
No, this one seems to come from his own little distorted mind. Makes it even sadder.

MKULTRA, you are ridiculous. Your arguments are based on Circular Logic, nothing more. You have no way of proving anything you say, and I'm certain that people supporting President Bush or Senator Kerry are getting sick of you.
you just used circular logic to make your non-point

seriously, go take your meds, or petition your therapist to up the dosage.
Bush supporters are in no position to make moral judgements

not really--Dan Rather has nothing to apologize for, he knows Bush is a coward who never served.The republicans should apologize to CBS for exploiting Rather in such a partisan manner with documents the republicans themselves forged :mad:
Whoa there...you can only drink so much Kool-Aid in one sitting.

The documents were created by Bill Burkett. The documents were sent to CBS from a kinkos by his house. Are you trying to say that Karl Rove somehow is some sort of superninja or has the psychic ability to teleport anywhere anytime and that he made Burkett a scapegoat by going to the Kinkos by his house? . Burkett is also a rabid Bush hater. It's so plain and clear who sent them. That is nothing but pure ignorance.

Here's a thing on how Kerry campaign staff possibly coordinated with CBS and Burkett on this. I say possibly because they deny a lot of it. But a good thing to consider.
More on the story. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040921/ap_on_el_pr/cbs_guard_kerry_1&printer=1)

I also question Dan Rather's decision to defend something as false as this for so long even though the best expert CBS hired said that he didn't believe they were authentic because of font differences....well Foxnews never disavows any of their DELIBERATE false reports so why should Dan Rather act any different when hes an innocent victim?

irony (i.ron.y) 3b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irony
very good--now look up the word relevance and see if your post applies to this thread

[QUOTE=MKULTRA]NO

No need to confuse TRA's puzzled mind with something like FACTS.

No need to confuse TRA's puzzled mind with something like FACTS.
I dont click on hate links

Words can't express how much this thread sucks . . . but they'll have to do.
I guess all that DU/CBS Kool-Aid you drank the last 12 days doesn't taste so good anymore, eh?

MKULTRA, you are ridiculous. Your arguments are based on Circular Logic, nothing more. You have no way of proving anything you say, and I'm certain that people supporting President Bush or Senator Kerry are getting sick of you.
That would require TRA to actually use ANY logic.

And yet... you all continue to post to this thread.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator
they like it when I spank them

And yet... you all continue to post to this thread.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator

And yet... you all continue to post to this thread.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator
It's one of those things...it is funny to get TRA all riled up, his response is classic Pavlovian.

Note to TRA: I can explain that to you later.

No, MKULTRA, you see...

For it to be Circular Logic, I must be unable to prove my first point. I, however, can prove my first point.

My point is that you refuse to accept truth, will not back down, or use common sense. I can prove that one. I could dig up any one of your myriad "tales" and point out a blatant, unbending refusal to accept even the most base of truths. Even with the evidence against you, you continue to speak as though it is all irrelevant. For once, just leave it be.

Ok I will -I just need a bit of time to write it down

Okay, you've had your time. Let's see it.

very good--now look up the word relevance and see if your post applies to this thread

It applies perfectly. The irony here is that your "truth" has completely failed to defend itself.

Oh man.....the conspiracy theorists will be working this one for years. I saw the interview with the man who supplied the documents. He "says" he got them from someone else, but when asked he refused to say who. Personally I think he created them himself and Dan Rather, who hates the Bush family with a passion, just ran with it even though he was TOLD the documents were probably fake. I guess he was forced to do that though. :rolleyes:

What most people will not face up to is that CBS and Dan Rather have been trying to take Bush down for years. The producer who did the story had been working on it for 5 years. FIVE years and FINALLY, just a few weeks from the election the story is ready to go. The only people who look bad now are Dan Rather and John Kerry. That a "news" organization goes from reporting the news to "creating" the news should be startling at best, shocking at worst.

My money's on the spider monkeys from the other thread forging the documents.

Hmmm... Burkett says he wouldnt give the "documents" to CBS unless they put him in contact with the Kerry campaign. They agreed and the Kerry campaign confirms this happened.

Why is an "independant" news service contacting the campaign of a Presidential candidate?

[MKULTRA #1]
*in yet another Karl Rovian dirty trick in order to divert attention away from the fact that our President is a coward who refused to do his duty when it was his turn to serve but who doesnt hesitate to send other peoples kids to die in the new Veitnam war he started

LA Times IDs GOP Attorney As First To Raise Doubts on Documents
Within hours of the 60 Minutes broadcast questions arose about the documents on the conservative Free Republic website by an anonymous writer known as Bankhead who The Los Angeles Times revealed to be Harry MacDougald. MacDougald is an Atlanta lawyer with strong ties to conservative Republican causes and who helped draft the petition urging the Arkansas Supreme Court to disbar President Clinton after the Monica Lewinsky scandal. MacDoughald's background is expected to fuel speculation that Republicans were behind the forged documents in an effort to undermine reports that Bush received preferential treatment in the National Guard more than 30 years ago. Newsweek is reporting that the documents may have been sent anonymously to former Texas National Guardsman -- and Bush critic -- Bill Burkett, who then shared the documents with 60 Minutes.
www.LATimes.com

WOW... excellent work Karl, dude...!

If it doesn't backfire, it's a wonderful ploy..!

If it does backfire, it will shoot the fnorkin' shnoot out of the Bush Administration..!

Is the risk worth the effect..?

No.

Dumbasses (yeah,.. I'm talkin' to you!)..!

Hmmm... Burkett says he wouldnt give the "documents" to CBS unless they put him in contact with the Kerry campaign. They agreed and the Kerry campaign confirms this happened.

Why is an "independant" news service contacting the campaign of a Presidential candidate?

Because Kerry is basically a GOD! ;) Seriously though Burkett and "Stumpy" oops Max Cleland were working hand and "hand" in this. Burkett is a big time Democrap contributor with ties to Rather as well. Another good question is why would Rather be at a Democratic fundraiser? I guess you can believe him when he says he didn't know it was a fundraiser.

PS-Did you hear Kerry on Regis this morning saying a 6 and an 8 year old kid had made Kerry campaign buttons and sold them to raise money for him. They collected a couple of hundred bucks each. It was a nice gesture, but it was illegal for Kerry to accept the money as they are under 17 and can't contribute under McCain-Feingold. Did he give the money back to them, or did he pull a Clinton (when he kept the $24 from some kids bakesale to help the national debt)?

Because Kerry is basically a GOD! ;) Seriously though Burkett and "Stumpy" oops Max Cleland were working hand and "hand" in this. Burkett is a big time Democrap contributor with ties to Rather as well. Another good question is why would Rather be at a Democratic fundraiser? I guess you can believe him when he says he didn't know it was a fundraiser.

PS-Did you hear Kerry on Regis this morning saying a 6 and an 8 year old kid had made Kerry campaign buttons and sold them to raise money for him. They collected a couple of hundred bucks each. It was a nice gesture, but it was illegal for Kerry to accept the money as they are under 17 and can't contribute under McCain-Feingold. Did he give the money back to them, or did he pull a Clinton (when he kept the $24 from some kids bakesale to help the national debt)?
Kerry probably kept the money, but also gave those 2 kids jobs making campaign buttons at his campaign headquarters.... violating child labor laws.

Kerry probably kept the money, but also gave those 2 kids jobs making campaign buttons at his campaign headquarters.... violating child labor laws.


He probably did!

Has anyone here heard of anything about Max Cleland and if his injuries were caused by playing with a grenade. I've heard about it but haven't been able to find anything. I'm just curious as I don't know what the story is.

Has anyone here heard of anything about Max Cleland and if his injuries were caused by playing with a grenade. I've heard about it but haven't been able to find anything. I'm just curious as I don't know what the story is.
April 8, 1968: Max Cleland is wounded by an enemy grenade in Vietnam. As a result of the explosion he lost both legs and his right arm. While in Vietnam he won the Bronze Start of Meritorious Service and the Silver Star for Gallantry in Action.

April 8, 1968: Max Cleland is wounded by an enemy grenade in Vietnam. As a result of the explosion he lost both legs and his right arm. While in Vietnam he won the Bronze Start of Meritorious Service and the Silver Star for Gallantry in Action.

I heard it was a friendly grenade that fell off a fellow soldiers vest while they were awaiting a helicopter pickup.

I heard it was a friendly grenade that fell off a fellow soldiers vest while they were awaiting a helicopter pickup.
I just quoted from here:www.ourgeorgiahistory.com/chronpop/981
I cant vouch for it's accuracy.

It applies perfectly. The irony here is that your "truth" has completely failed to defend itself.
thats no reason to stop fighting

Oh man.....the conspiracy theorists will be working this one for years. I saw the interview with the man who supplied the documents. He "says" he got them from someone else, but when asked he refused to say who. Personally I think he created them himself and Dan Rather, who hates the Bush family with a passion, just ran with it even though he was TOLD the documents were probably fake. I guess he was forced to do that though. :rolleyes:

What most people will not face up to is that CBS and Dan Rather have been trying to take Bush down for years. The producer who did the story had been working on it for 5 years. FIVE years and FINALLY, just a few weeks from the election the story is ready to go. The only people who look bad now are Dan Rather and John Kerry. That a "news" organization goes from reporting the news to "creating" the news should be startling at best, shocking at worst.
whats the big deal that CBS did ONCE what Foxnews does 24-7 365 days a year? the rest of the media must follow the same partisan standard of propaganda that Foxnews sets and fight fire with fire. We need many more stories like this in our media to restore balance

My money's on the spider monkeys from the other thread forging the documents.
LOL

Because Kerry is basically a GOD! ;) Seriously though Burkett and "Stumpy" oops Max Cleland were working hand and "hand" in this. Burkett is a big time Democrap contributor with ties to Rather as well. Another good question is why would Rather be at a Democratic fundraiser? I guess you can believe him when he says he didn't know it was a fundraiser.

PS-Did you hear Kerry on Regis this morning saying a 6 and an 8 year old kid had made Kerry campaign buttons and sold them to raise money for him. They collected a couple of hundred bucks each. It was a nice gesture, but it was illegal for Kerry to accept the money as they are under 17 and can't contribute under McCain-Feingold. Did he give the money back to them, or did he pull a Clinton (when he kept the $24 from some kids bakesale to help the national debt)?
this post is another example of republicans bashing our vets in defense of an AWOL coward--dont republicans have ANY sense of decency at all?

Has anyone here heard of anything about Max Cleland and if his injuries were caused by playing with a grenade. I've heard about it but haven't been able to find anything. I'm just curious as I don't know what the story is.
yet another example of republicans spitting on Vietnam Veterans--theyre so willing to pick apart every detail of people who actually SERVED all the while defending a President who got preferential treatment and was allowed to go AWOL-must be another case of republican class bigotry where they think rich people should have special rights and that only the poor should fight in our wars

this post is another example of republicans bashing our vets in defense of an AWOL coward--dont republicans have ANY sense of decency at all?

Hush. After posting a pack of lies and then claiming the left needs to float more lies out there to "restore balance" due to the influence of Fox news or some such rot, you've got no room to talk about decency.

There you go, Dems -- you've got a walking stereotype in your midst. Ugly, isn't he? Thank God most Democrats have got good sense, at least. You should, perhaps, try to emulate them, ace.

I heard it was a friendly grenade that fell off a fellow soldiers vest while they were awaiting a helicopter pickup.
does that make his medal any less legit?
Can you name one case where George Bush ever personally put himself in danger?

April 8, 1968: Max Cleland is wounded by an enemy grenade in Vietnam. As a result of the explosion he lost both legs and his right arm. While in Vietnam he won the Bronze Start of Meritorious Service and the Silver Star for Gallantry in Action.

It wasnt an enemy grenade. Hence no purple heart for Cleland. They werent being attacked, it was a stupid mistake. Unfortunately he has been paying for that mistake for a long time

does that make his medal any less legit?
Can you name one case where George Bush ever personally put himself in danger?
he is george bush !11!11 he is in danger everyday!!111
he went to the RNC 11!1eleven. the rnc was threatened by terorirmiristst

does that make his medal any less legit?
Can you name one case where George Bush ever personally put himself in danger?


Yes, if he had followed proper procedure, he would have all his limbs today.

Hush. After posting a pack of lies and then claiming the left needs to float more lies out there to "restore balance" due to the influence of Fox news or some such rot, you've got no room to talk about decency.

There you go, Dems -- you've got a walking stereotype in your midst. Ugly, isn't he? Thank God most Democrats have got good sense, at least. You should, perhaps, try to emulate them, ace.
the only thing that stands exposed is your own partisan bigotry--you want to hold the left to standards you dont hold the right to. Thats a double standard. If lying is fair for one side it should be fair for everyone. Its never "ugly" to defend equality

this post is another example of republicans bashing our vets in defense of an AWOL coward--dont republicans have ANY sense of decency at all?
No, this is another example of you being a crybaby dumbass.....again.

Yes, if he had followed proper procedure, he would have all his limbs today.
how brilliant of you, go around villifying nearly parapalegic people because of petty partisanship, you,sir, should be put in the stocks.

Karl Rove unloads entire TEC-9 clip into George W. Bush's groin!
In yet another dirty trick to try and make up for John Kerry's purple hearts, George W. Bush had Karl Rove shoot him 20 times in the groin with a TEC-9 and call him a "stupid no good fuck" on national television, no report yet on why this event occured while they were both standing on Bush's 50' Widescreen Monolith Pancontinent. Though George Bush is now doing fine, Dick Cheney is unavailable for comment as he has gone into hiding in a secret underground bunker. Karl Rove is still at large, though he is regularly stopping to shoot prominent Conservatives dead and use their blood to paint "BUSH IS SATAN!" or "BUSH SUX" or "FOUR OUT OF FIVE UNNAMABLE EXTRADIMENSIONAL DEMONIC ENTITIES SUPPORT BUSH AND/OR HAMSTERS FOR THE PRESIDENCY".
When asked for comment John Kerry announced "This is yet another stunt, on the part of the Bush, my opponent, White House to try to take the attention, or focus, of the American people, which live in America, off of me, John Kerry, and divert, or redirect, it to the troubles, tribulations, and senseless rampaging violence of the Bush family. Violence not unlike that that I saw when I, John Kerry, was in the Vietnam War fighting for America by killing women and children. However, I, John Kerry . . ." There may have been more in the statement, however, the reporter passed out at this point and woke up five hours later in a puddle of his own drool.

No, this is another example of you being a crybaby dumbass.....again.
Do not result to insults. There is no need.

Yes, if he had followed proper procedure, he would have all his limbs today.
And if Bush followed proper procedure hed have a war record of his own to speak of

You Republicans shouldn't be bashing Max Cleland for what happened to him in Vietnam. IF it was an accident (and I still don't believe that story is true), then you should feel sympathy for him. Accidents happen in war, and even if his injuries were not the result of enemy fire, the accident probably wouldn't have happened if he wasn't in a war zone.

how brilliant of you, go around villifying nearly parapalegic people because of petty partisanship, you,sir, should be put in the stocks.
actually MoeHoward was the one doin it

Karl Rove unloads entire TEC-9 clip into George W. Bush's groin!
In yet another dirty trick to try and make up for John Kerry's purple hearts, George W. Bush had Karl Rove shoot him 20 times in the groin with a TEC-9 and call him a "stupid no good fuck" on national television, no report yet on why this event occured while they were both standing on Bush's 50' Widescreen Monolith Pancontinent. Though George Bush is now doing fine, Dick Cheney is unavailable for comment as he has gone into hiding in a secret underground bunker. Karl Rove is still at large, though he is regularly stopping to shoot prominent Conservatives dead and use their blood to paint "BUSH IS SATAN!" or "BUSH SUX" or "FOUR OUT OF FIVE UNNAMABLE EXTRADIMENSIONAL DEMONIC ENTITIES SUPPORT BUSH AND/OR HAMSTERS FOR THE PRESIDENCY".
When asked for comment John Kerry announced "This is yet another stunt, on the part of the Bush, my opponent, White House to try to take the attention, or focus, of the American people, which live in America, off of me, John Kerry, and divert, or redirect, it to the troubles, tribulations, and senseless rampaging violence of the Bush family. Violence not unlike that that I saw when I, John Kerry, was in the Vietnam War fighting for America by killing women and children. However, I, John Kerry . . ." There may have been more in the statement, however, the reporter passed out at this point and woke up five hours later in a puddle of his own drool.
You should write for SNL

You Republicans shouldn't be bashing Max Cleland for what happened to him in Vietnam. IF it was an accident (and I still don't believe that story is true), then you should feel sympathy for him. Accidents happen in war, and even if his injuries were not the result of enemy fire, the accident probably wouldn't have happened if he wasn't in a war zone.


who is bashing? someone asked how he was injured and people replied. It only lunatics like MKULTRA and chess squares that view it as bashing. of course MKULTRA sees everything as bashing democrats, but that is probably because he is completely insane.

Do not result to insults. There is no need.
why are you defending me

who is bashing? someone asked how he was injured and people replied. It only lunatics like MKULTRA and chess squares that view it as bashing. of course MKULTRA sees everything as bashing democrats, but that is probably because he is completely insane.
you are bashing because you wouldnt give two shits about max cleland if this wasnt a political debate or if he wasnt liberal, instead of implying he DESERVED it

who is bashing? someone asked how he was injured and people replied. It only lunatics like MKULTRA and chess squares that view it as bashing. of course MKULTRA sees everything as bashing democrats, but that is probably because he is completely insane.
in an earlier post MoeHoward called Cleland "stumpy"

MKULTRA, I think Formal Hammered you here as has alot of people!

Here is something for you from the Washington Post for you to read!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36908-2004Sep20.html

It is regarding CBS's Source!

And this one is regarding Rather:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35531-2004Sep20.html

Now do you care to refute what the Post, which really isn't conservative by any means?

You should write for SNL
With you as my inspiration, there are no bounds.
Unless that post was sarcasm, in which case:
"J00 4R3 D0PY M34NH34D!!! J00 SUXX0RS!!!"

why are you defending me
I am not defending you. I am simply stating that there is no need to result to insults. I try to say that to every poster I see who only results to insults. Either side.

you are bashing because you wouldnt give two shits about max cleland if this wasnt a political debate or if he wasnt liberal, instead of implying he DESERVED it

What a twisted world you live in if you think 1 human being would imply that another human being DESERVED to have 2 legs and 1 arm blown off.

I dont like Cleland, I dont like his politics, but I dont wish him physical harm.

It is highly doubtful that the Republicans forged these documents. However, there is still no denying that we have in the White House today a man with a double-dijit IQ, who seems to think that being President of a SECULAR nation still doesnt preclude him from thumping a bible at the rest of us who dont share his "divine inspiration." As for Max Cleland, even if it was an accident, he still fought for the nation when it was necessary, instead of staying home in the Air National Guard using his father's connections, and then proceeding to become a fictitious president and lead us into an unnecessary war. In addition, he has put in place truly moronic economic policies calculated to drive the nation into insolvency and ruin.

What a twisted world you live in if you think 1 human being would imply that another human being DESERVED to have 2 legs and 1 arm blown off.

I dont like Cleland, I dont like his politics, but I dont wish him physical harm.
...
"Yes, if he had followed proper procedure, he would have all his limbs today"

...
"Yes, if he had followed proper procedure, he would have all his limbs today"

Are you that dunce. If it was a friendly grenade, and I doubt that it was to be honest, there are procedures for handling them. If you don't follow them to the letter, accidents happen.

I guess you never been in the military otherwise, you would have known this.

MKULTRA, I think Formal Hammered you here as has alot of people!

Here is something for you from the Washington Post for you to read!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36908-2004Sep20.html

It is regarding CBS's Source!

And this one is regarding Rather:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35531-2004Sep20.html

Now do you care to refute what the Post, which really isn't conservative by any means?the Washington Post IS conservative in that it is part of the corporate media conglomerate. It doesnt belong to the Indy media movement for Responsible Journalism

It is highly doubtful that the Republicans forged these documents. However, there is still no denying that we have in the White House today a man with a double-dijit IQ, who seems to think that being President of a SECULAR nation still doesnt preclude him from thumping a bible at the rest of us who dont share his "divine inspiration." As for Max Cleland, even if it was an accident, he still fought for the nation when it was necessary, instead of staying home in the Air National Guard using his father's connections, and then proceeding to become a fictitious president and lead us into an unnecessary war. In addition, he has put in place truly moronic economic policies calculated to drive the nation into insolvency and ruin.
::chuckles::
Only because of the irony.

With you as my inspiration, there are no bounds.
Unless that post was sarcasm, in which case:
"J00 4R3 D0PY M34NH34D!!! J00 SUXX0RS!!!"
No I was being serious

I am not defending you. I am simply stating that there is no need to result to insults. I try to say that to every poster I see who only results to insults. Either side.
oh-well thats a good policy

What a twisted world you live in if you think 1 human being would imply that another human being DESERVED to have 2 legs and 1 arm blown off.

I dont like Cleland, I dont like his politics, but I dont wish him physical harm.
MoeHoward did--but your too buzy attacking leftwingers to see it

It is highly doubtful that the Republicans forged these documents. However, there is still no denying that we have in the White House today a man with a double-dijit IQ, who seems to think that being President of a SECULAR nation still doesnt preclude him from thumping a bible at the rest of us who dont share his "divine inspiration." As for Max Cleland, even if it was an accident, he still fought for the nation when it was necessary, instead of staying home in the Air National Guard using his father's connections, and then proceeding to become a fictitious president and lead us into an unnecessary war. In addition, he has put in place truly moronic economic policies calculated to drive the nation into insolvency and ruin.
this post sums it all up

New evidence has just come in that there WAS evidence that republicans forged these documents afterall. Please refer to Incertonias posts above

the Washington Post IS conservative in that it is part of the corporate media conglomerate. It doesnt belong to the Indy media movement for Responsible Journalism

Such as Moveon.org or democracynow.org? Give me a break!

It doesn't matter anyway!

Here is something in my local Paper, the Lancaster New Era:

OUTSIDE PANEL WILL REVIEW CBS REPORT ON GUARD DUTY

Experts to assess blame. Questions about source ties to Kerry campaign. Rather: "I'm Sorry"

Within the next few days, CBS News expects to name an independent panel of experts to scrutinize its reporting of President Bush's National Guard service after its defenses for airing the explosive story crumbled.

Eleven days after questions surfaced about Dan Rather's "60 Minutes" report, the netork apologized Monday and said it could not vouch for the authenticity of documents impugning the presidents's Guard service.

There is more and I will post it later if you like to know the rest of the story.

New evidence has just come in that there WAS evidence that republicans forged these documents afterall. Please refer to Incertonias posts above

And there are allegations that he has ties to the Kerry Campaign. This should get interesting.

And there are allegations that he has ties to the Kerry Campaign. This should get interesting.
Y'all are talking about two different things. Corneliu, I think you're talking about a conversation between Bill Burkett and Lockhart of Kerry's campaign, of which both have said that Kerry's campaign had nothing to do with the documents. The thread MKULTRA is talking about is titled "MKULTRA may have been accidentally right" and it deals with a piece from the NY Post that fingers Roger Stone, a former Nixon operative who had no comment when asked if he had anything to do with the documents.

Y'all are talking about two different things. Corneliu, I think you're talking about a conversation between Bill Burkett and Lockhart of Kerry's campaign, of which both have said that Kerry's campaign had nothing to do with the documents. The thread MKULTRA is talking about is titled "MKULTRA may have been accidentally right" and it deals with a piece from the NY Post that fingers Roger Stone, a former Nixon operative who had no comment when asked if he had anything to do with the documents.

Ok! Here is a question that I have to ask! Just because it was a former Nixon operative, does that implicate Bush in all of this mess?

Ok! Here is a question that I have to ask! Just because it was a former Nixon operative, does that implicate Bush in all of this mess?
Directly? No, and i'd be more surprised than you if he were. Rove, maybe, but I'd be surprised if he was close enough to be fingered directly, though I wouldn't be surprised if he whispered it in someone's ear.

But answer me this--if the tables were turned, and the guy being fingered used to work for, say, Clinton, would you assume Kerry had something to do with it?

Y'all are talking about two different things. Corneliu, I think you're talking about a conversation between Bill Burkett and Lockhart of Kerry's campaign, of which both have said that Kerry's campaign had nothing to do with the documents. The thread MKULTRA is talking about is titled "MKULTRA may have been accidentally right" and it deals with a piece from the NY Post that fingers Roger Stone, a former Nixon operative who had no comment when asked if he had anything to do with the documents.
lol.. that article from the NYPost in no way fingers Roger Stone. Rather it commented on the fact that NY political circles are rumoring that Stone might have been the source.
HUGE difference.

Directly? No, and i'd be more surprised than you if he were. Rove, maybe, but I'd be surprised if he was close enough to be fingered directly, though I wouldn't be surprised if he whispered it in someone's ear.

But answer me this--if the tables were turned, and the guy being fingered used to work for, say, Clinton, would you assume Kerry had something to do with it?

No I won't finger Kerry. I wait till evidence is in before pointing fingers at who is at fault. CBS is going to have an Outside panel look at this and I applaud them for it. Hopefully they'll get answers.

Words can't express just how thoroughly this topic has amused me.

Social Darwinism at its best :D

Y'all are talking about two different things. Corneliu, I think you're talking about a conversation between Bill Burkett and Lockhart of Kerry's campaign, of which both have said that Kerry's campaign had nothing to do with the documents. The thread MKULTRA is talking about is titled "MKULTRA may have been accidentally right" and it deals with a piece from the NY Post that fingers Roger Stone, a former Nixon operative who had no comment when asked if he had anything to do with the documents.
No comment is an admission of Guilt

No comment is an admission of Guilt

Sometimes yes and sometimes no! It all depends on the situation and what the attornies tell you what to say too.

Words can't express just how thoroughly this topic has amused me.

Social Darwinism at its best :D
this shows to what extent the republicans would go to lie cheat and steal for what doesnt belong to them

lol.. that article from the NYPost in no way fingers Roger Stone. Rather it commented on the fact that NY political circles are rumoring that Stone might have been the source.
HUGE difference.
It hints at fingering him. It reports the rumor, reports that Stone was asked about the rumor and reports his response, namely, none. It's not great journalism, but it's the Post, after all. But it does raise the question as to why Stone didn't simply deny the charge--it's not like he was under oath and would face any repercussions if he was caught in a lie.

It hints at fingering him. It reports the rumor, reports that Stone was asked about the rumor and reports his response, namely, none. It's not great journalism, but it's the Post, after all. But it does raise the question as to why Stone didn't simply deny the charge--it's not like he was under oath and would face any repercussions if he was caught in a lie.
the most significant thing of all in the NYPOST story Incertonia is the fact that the NY COMPOST (what I call it) is a virulently rightwing Murdoch owned Foxnews type rag that only preaches GOP propaganda. For them to print such rumblings is of extreme significance

Sometimes yes and sometimes no! It all depends on the situation and what the attornies tell you what to say too.

True enough. I am a liberal (well, not exactly, but it's the only easy label that comes close to fitting,) and I'm not one for rushing to judgement.

What we can say is that the whole web weaved by this story is smelling funkier every day, and that some Republicans (who may or may not have any connection to the current campaign,) are being investigated.

The most we can say is that a "no comment" is definitely a justification for digging deeper.

This could turn out to look VERY bad for the Republicans, and the "memogate" designation could be hung on the Republican's door eventually.

Hahahahahahaha. The real issues continue to get buried.

True enough. I am a liberal (well, not exactly, but it's the only easy label that comes close to fitting,) and I'm not one for rushing to judgement.

Good! I think rushing to judgement is a bad idea and can get people into alot of trouble. I know this one first hand.

What we can say is that the whole web weaved by this story is smelling funkier every day, and that some Republicans (who may or may not have any connection to the current campaign,) are being investigated.

This I will agree with and an Investigation is warranted. I would like to know who was behind this myself.

The most we can say is that a "no comment" is definitely a justification for digging deeper.

This again, I agree with.

This could turn out to look VERY bad for the Republicans, and the "memogate" designation could be hung on the Republican's door eventually.

True it could be bad for the Republicans, but then again, maybe not. It all depends on what the investigation says. Most people wait on results before making judgements and in this case, I think that would be the wisest course of action.

Hahahahahahaha. The real issues continue to get buried.

HAHA!! So VERY true

Links are for the weak. There is no greater Truth that can be spoken then one that can defend itself with the force of its own power.

irony (i.ron.y) 3b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irony

very good--now look up the word relevance and see if your post applies to this thread


Oh, I think it's hilariously relevent, Mister Cut-and-Paste-from-Democracy.org.

Oh, I think it's hilariously relevent, Mister Cut-and-Paste-from-Democracy.org.
keyword :THINK

keyword :THINK

Let me explain it to you, since this concept seems to be giving you some trouble:

1)You link constantly to democracy.org and moveon.org, two fairly extreme and dubious sources.

2)You are asked if you wish to see a link that shows your source may be wrong.

3) You refuse to look at it because it's a link and, in your own words, links are for the weak.

Thus, your statement concerning links and your observed behaviour USING links are at odds; hence the relevance of the indicated irony.

Let me explain it to you, since this concept seems to be giving you some trouble:

1)You link constantly to democracy.org and moveon.org, two fairly extreme and dubious sources.

2)You are asked if you wish to see a link that shows your source may be wrong.

3) You refuse to look at it because it's a link and, in your own words, links are for the weak.

Thus, your statement concerning links and your observed behaviour USING links are at odds; hence the relevance of the indicated irony.
define ;hence

Well, he will take "speculation" from the LA Times to mean "The Bush campaign forged the documents". The LA times never said that. The LA Times reported on "speculation" and MKULTRA asssures us that Republicans forged the documents. Now, this is after the documents were proved forgeries. Tell me why MKULTRA did not accuse them of being Republican forgeries before they were proved false? Because he wanted them to be true before, but now that they have been proved false he blames Republicans. Brilliant.

Well, he will take "speculation" from the LA Times to mean "The Bush campaign forged the documents". The LA times never said that. The LA Times reported on "speculation" and MKULTRA asssures us that Republicans forged the documents. Now, this is after the documents were proved forgeries. Tell me why MKULTRA did not accuse them of being Republican forgeries before they were proved false? Because he wanted them to be true before, but now that they have been proved false he blames Republicans. Brilliant.
oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged

oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged

Hmmm..... I wonder if that argument would result in a win if I presented a forged lottery ticket?

[MKULTRA #181]
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Susa_
Well, he will take "speculation" from the LA Times to mean "The Bush campaign forged the documents". The LA times never said that. The LA Times reported on "speculation" and MKULTRA asssures us that Republicans forged the documents. Now, this is after the documents were proved forgeries. Tell me why MKULTRA did not accuse them of being Republican forgeries before they were proved false? Because he wanted them to be true before, but now that they have been proved false he blames Republicans. Brilliant.


oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged

MKULTRA is quite the joker. :D

Let's see what else MK can pull out of MK's ass.....

oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged
So, I gather you talked to LtCol Killian before he passed away, in 1984, to gather his thoughts about George W. Bush, right?

To present the testimony of Killian's former secretary, who obviously has an axe to grind, as proof, you need to truly be grasping at straws.

But then again, the Lefties have been grasping at straws for the last year or so. That is how they found themselves with the absolutely worst candidate they could have come across.

[MKULTRA #181]
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Susa_
Well, he will take "speculation" from the LA Times to mean "The Bush campaign forged the documents". The LA times never said that. The LA Times reported on "speculation" and MKULTRA asssures us that Republicans forged the documents. Now, this is after the documents were proved forgeries. Tell me why MKULTRA did not accuse them of being Republican forgeries before they were proved false? Because he wanted them to be true before, but now that they have been proved false he blames Republicans. Brilliant.


oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged

MKULTRA is quite the joker. :D

Let's see what else MK can pull out of MK's ass.....
Be careful what you ask for!!!

[Panhandlia #185]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
[MKULTRA #181]
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Susa_
Well, he will take "speculation" from the LA Times to mean "The Bush campaign forged the documents". The LA times never said that. The LA Times reported on "speculation" and MKULTRA asssures us that Republicans forged the documents. Now, this is after the documents were proved forgeries. Tell me why MKULTRA did not accuse them of being Republican forgeries before they were proved false? Because he wanted them to be true before, but now that they have been proved false he blames Republicans. Brilliant.


oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged

MKULTRA is quite the joker.

Let's see what else MK can pull out of MK's ass.....


Be careful what you ask for!!!

D'oh..!!!!!

:D

But the things in leftist's asses are so FUNNY..!

And it always matches the contents of their heads..!

To present the testimony of Killian's former secretary, who obviously has an axe to grind, as proof, you need to truly be grasping at straws.Where did that come from?

Where did that come from?
I guess you didn't watch the "compelling" interview LtCol Killian's former secretary had with Lyin' Dan Rather.

I guess you didn't watch the "compelling" interview LtCol Killian's former secretary had with Lyin' Dan Rather.
just ignore panhandlia, he's just going to make up comments like that to add because he is full of hate for anyone who is not on his side of the political line

grow up

just ignore panhandlia, he's just going to make up comments like that to add because he is full of hate for anyone who is not on his side of the political line

grow up
Hate? Ha-ha. Don't project your mental state onto me. After all, we know who does the insulting around here, and who doesn't.

Let me know if you need the hint.

oh but the message of the documents ARE true-its just the document itself thats forged

Ok! How is the messege true but not the documents? Can you provide proof of that?

I guess you didn't watch the "compelling" interview LtCol Killian's former secretary had with Lyin' Dan Rather.Only saw part of it. We've talked about this before--I don't really care about the story, because it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know about Bush's service. Hell, here's a story from the Air Force Times (http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-AIRPAPER-357916.php), that bastion of liberal thought, that makes the same case about Bush's service that CBS and lots of others have made, without using the Killian memos.

I'm telling you, Panhandlia, the longer this story stays in the news cycle, the worse it gets for Bush. You may not believe me, but the longer people hear about Bush's questionable service--no matter the context--the smaller he looks in comparison to Kerry.

I'm telling you, Panhandlia, the longer this story stays in the news cycle, the worse it gets for Bush. You may not believe me, but the longer people hear about Bush's questionable service--no matter the context--the smaller he looks in comparison to Kerry.

I frankly dont think people care much about either Bush's or Kerry's service in Vietnam.

I do think however that people care about "dirty tricks"

the most significant thing of all in the NYPOST story Incertonia is the fact that the NY COMPOST (what I call it) is a virulently rightwing Murdoch owned Foxnews type rag that only preaches GOP propaganda. For them to print such rumblings is of extreme significance

And as I've pointed out before, you're just the liberal equivalent of a conservative who gets all his news from the Post. You are what you claim to despise.

define ;hence

Keyword: DICTIONARY
see above: IRONY

Once again, a leftist proving his ignorance by showing his gullibility for the most whacked out conspiracy theory he could possibly find. I wonder, is it possible for a leftist to think for themselves and do something besides parrot the "party line"?

IF a Republican did this and the Dems jumped on it (Dan Rather is very active in Texas Democrat politics) then it was freaking brilliant!! It not only showed CBS and Dan Rather for what they really are, it also exposed a link between the Kerry campaign and the guy who turned them over to Rather. IF it ever comes out that the Kerry campaign was somehow involved then Kerry will be completely finished once and for all.

Once again, a leftist proving his ignorance by showing his gullibility for the most whacked out conspiracy theory he could possibly find. I wonder, is it possible for a leftist to think for themselves and do something besides parrot the "party line"?

Irony, thy name is Grays Harbor

IF a Republican did this and the Dems jumped on it (Dan Rather is very active in Texas Democrat politics) then it was freaking brilliant!! It not only showed CBS and Dan Rather for what they really are, it also exposed a link between the Kerry campaign and the guy who turned them over to Rather. IF it ever comes out that the Kerry campaign was somehow involved then Kerry will be completely finished once and for all.

Double standard anyone?

Just let me say, as an avowed conservative (though not a card carrying republican, as it were), I do not hold Kerry, democrats, or liberals in general responsible for the actions of the few pillars of stupidity that attempted to set up this fraud/sham. There's no evidence I should, so I'm not condemning the entirety of the group for the actions of a few.

Just felt like you all deserved to know that. We're not enemies per se, we just hold to differing ideologies. :)

..of what's wrong with this election and how the campaigns are being run.

I heard the same Rowe theory from a friend of mine, who also advocated it as the gospel truth. It's amazing how many bitter, bitter people are out there who have disregarded any interest in facts, reality or rationality in their quest to hang Bush. It's sad that people who could contribute to the intelligent discussion of meaningful issues have instead been driven by their extreme hatred of Bush to focus on irrelevant minutiae and manufacture vast conspiracy theories.

MK, I'm not going to argue with you because, given your rant about how Bush should be dragged through the streets and spat on, you've obviously abandoned any interest in having a rational discussion about what's best for our country, and instead seek out every half-truth, innuendo and crankpot theory that supports your blind hatred, regardless of validity. Apparently so does Dan Rather.

..of what's wrong with this election and how the campaigns are being run.

I heard the same Rowe theory from a friend of mine, who also advocated it as the gospel truth. It's amazing how many bitter, bitter people are out there who have disregarded any interest in facts, reality or rationality in their quest to hang Bush. It's sad that people who could contribute to the intelligent discussion of meaningful issues have instead been driven by their extreme hatred of Bush to focus on irrelevant minutiae and manufacture vast conspiracy theories.

MK, I'm not going to argue with you because, given your rant about how Bush should be dragged through the streets and spat on, you've obviously abandoned any interest in having a rational discussion about what's best for our country, and instead seek out every half-truth, innuendo and crankpot theory that supports your blind hatred, regardless of validity. Apparently so does Dan Rather.
lets not villify the left alone, what about the people making a giant deal out of ludicrous small things in kerry's vietnam service and believing every piece of asinine propaganda coming from the right about kerry's beliefs and statements. one can easily see bush as a bad president from facts and logic presented without some inane amount of conspiracy theory. and speaking of conspiracy theory, doesnt bush and the right always whine about how kerry is stopping him from doing all the good thigns he promised, even though he is 1 person in a house of congress of over 100 people? its super kerry to the rescue!

Double standard anyone?

How so? It is all speculation anyway....

And more news about CBS:

FCC FINES CBS NETWORK $550,000 FOR JANET JACKSON'S BREAST EXPOSURE
DURING SUPER BOWL HALFTIME SHOW

That broke about an hour ago! LOL

Hmmm..... I wonder if that argument would result in a win if I presented a forged lottery ticket?
this argument only works situationally

So, I gather you talked to LtCol Killian before he passed away, in 1984, to gather his thoughts about George W. Bush, right?

To present the testimony of Killian's former secretary, who obviously has an axe to grind, as proof, you need to truly be grasping at straws.

But then again, the Lefties have been grasping at straws for the last year or so. That is how they found themselves with the absolutely worst candidate they could have come across.
no that was the fault of the corporate media

Ok! How is the messege true but not the documents? Can you provide proof of that?
the republicans forged the TRUTH in order to discredit the truth

the republicans forged the TRUTH in order to discredit the truth

Bush kidnapped the Lindburg baby!!!

And as I've pointed out before, you're just the liberal equivalent of a conservative who gets all his news from the Post. You are what you claim to despise.
no Im better because my side is right

Once again, a leftist proving his ignorance by showing his gullibility for the most whacked out conspiracy theory he could possibly find. I wonder, is it possible for a leftist to think for themselves and do something besides parrot the "party line"?
I ask myself the same things about republicans

IF a Republican did this and the Dems jumped on it (Dan Rather is very active in Texas Democrat politics) then it was freaking brilliant!! It not only showed CBS and Dan Rather for what they really are, it also exposed a link between the Kerry campaign and the guy who turned them over to Rather. IF it ever comes out that the Kerry campaign was somehow involved then Kerry will be completely finished once and for all.
yes the republicans did do it and exposes them for what they are

..of what's wrong with this election and how the campaigns are being run.

I heard the same Rowe theory from a friend of mine, who also advocated it as the gospel truth. It's amazing how many bitter, bitter people are out there who have disregarded any interest in facts, reality or rationality in their quest to hang Bush. It's sad that people who could contribute to the intelligent discussion of meaningful issues have instead been driven by their extreme hatred of Bush to focus on irrelevant minutiae and manufacture vast conspiracy theories.

MK, I'm not going to argue with you because, given your rant about how Bush should be dragged through the streets and spat on, you've obviously abandoned any interest in having a rational discussion about what's best for our country, and instead seek out every half-truth, innuendo and crankpot theory that supports your blind hatred, regardless of validity. Apparently so does Dan Rather.the reason politics have reached this level is because of republicans themselves along with hate radio and FOXNEWS theyre the ones who invented the politics of personal destruction when Clinton was President-You just dont like a taste of your own medicine

And more news about CBS:

FCC FINES CBS NETWORK $550,000 FOR JANET JACKSON'S BREAST EXPOSURE
DURING SUPER BOWL HALFTIME SHOW

That broke about an hour ago! LOL
thats a good example of the Bush administrations warped priorities

the republicans forged the TRUTH in order to discredit the truth

Care to elaborate on this considering, I"m not buying it even though I do love conspiracy theories.

thats a good example of the Bush administrations warped priorities

Actually, it broke indecency laws that are on the books. Thus they got punished for it. Can't blame this one on Bush but I really can't blame CBS either but they got Punished because it was their TV station that had it.

I actually blame Janet Jackson for this punishment that was placed on CBS.

Now care to tell me how this is an example of the Bush Administration's "warped priorities"? I don't see it!

Care to elaborate on this considering, I"m not buying it even though I do love conspiracy theories.
republicans cant defend Bushs AWOL status and horrible military record with any facts at all because the truth is he HAS NO MILITARY RECORD to speak of-he WAS treated preferentially and got a rich kids deferment. The only possible strategy they had left was to try to discredit his critics with a stunt like this. When the forgery was found out it would cast a cloud over the truth and discredit his critics at the same time. Its a strategy Foxnews uses when they get caught in one of their lies. They muddy the waters and then attack the messenger.Foxnews uses Rovian tactics too

Actually, it broke indecency laws that are on the books. Thus they got punished for it. Can't blame this one on Bush but I really can't blame CBS either but they got Punished because it was their TV station that had it.

I actually blame Janet Jackson for this punishment that was placed on CBS.

Now care to tell me how this is an example of the Bush Administration's "warped priorities"? I don't see it!
Bush appointed the moronic FCC commissioner to enforce these irrational standards. Only in puritanical America is a flash of a nippple considered "indecent"--the rest of the world shows full frontal nudity on TV because theyre more evolved and arent cursed with a plague of wild eyed religious weirdos trying to censor everything related to sexuality

Bush appointed the moronic FCC commissioner to enforce these irrational standards. Only in puritanical America is a flash of a nippple considered "indecent"--the rest of the world shows full frontal nudity on TV because theyre more evolved and arent cursed with a plague of wild eyed religious weirdos trying to censor everything related to sexuality

I think it had more to do with the number of complaints....

republicans cant defend Bushs AWOL status and horrible military record with any facts at all because the truth is he HAS NO MILITARY RECORD to speak of-he WAS treated preferentially and got a rich kids deferment. The only possible strategy they had left was to try to discredit his critics with a stunt like this. When the forgery was found out it would cast a cloud over the truth and discredit his critics at the same time. Its a strategy Foxnews uses when they get caught in one of their lies. They muddy the waters and then attack the messenger.Foxnews uses Rovian tactics too

MKULTRA, you have one nasty conspiracy theory but it is not backed up with facts. Care to show proof that Bush was AWOL that is NOT moveon.org or democracynow.org or the NYT? I want a credible source. As for a Military Record, he doesn't need to run on one but Kerry somehow does? I think NO candidate should talk about their military records if it is 30 years later. It has no bearing. As for favoritism, again source? CBS has been discredited because of this so called source so do you have a second one? As for Fox News, care to show proof that they are using "Rovian Tactics"?

Bush appointed the moronic FCC commissioner to enforce these irrational standards. Only in puritanical America is a flash of a nippple considered "indecent"--the rest of the world shows full frontal nudity on TV because theyre more evolved and arent cursed with a plague of wild eyed religious weirdos trying to censor everything related to sexuality

Or maybe we care more about what our children see? Frankly, if I was a mother and saw that, though I did see and I was outraged over it, I would file a complaint with the FCC. Thousands did MKULTRA, and the FCC had to do something about it and they did.

Punishment fit the crime in my book.

I think it had more to do with the number of complaints....
yeah by Christian fundie wack jobs (the same sickos who were so jealous of Clintons sex life) who have no sex lives of their own and project all their repressed perversions onto everyone around them-these people are so uptight if you shove a piece of coal up their asses youd get a diamond

Or maybe we care more about what our children see? Frankly, if I was a mother and saw that, though I did see and I was outraged over it, I would file a complaint with the FCC. Thousands did MKULTRA, and the FCC had to do something about it and they did.

Punishment fit the crime in my book.
and nipples hurt children in what way? dont kids grow up sucking their mothers tits?

and nipples hurt children in what way? dont kids grow up sucking their mothers tits?

I was bottlefed so I would answer that I didn't!

MKULTRA, you have one nasty conspiracy theory but it is not backed up with facts. Care to show proof that Bush was AWOL that is NOT moveon.org or democracynow.org or the NYT? I want a credible source. As for a Military Record, he doesn't need to run on one but Kerry somehow does? I think NO candidate should talk about their military records if it is 30 years later. It has no bearing. As for favoritism, again source? CBS has been discredited because of this so called source so do you have a second one? As for Fox News, care to show proof that they are using "Rovian Tactics"?
its more important to persue the truth first and let the facts adjust themselves to it later

I was bottlefed so I would answer that I didn't!
thats child abuse-Your mother didnt bond with you

thats child abuse-Your mother didnt bond with you

My mother and I talk on a daily basis. I can come to her with any problem that I have and we work it out together. So YES we have bonded!

its more important to persue the truth first and let the facts adjust themselves to it later

ROFL
You are an idiot. Notice that none of your left-wing buddies are backing you up? That's because you are a fool. You are the biggest fool I have ever met. Your comments are biased, unbacked, and ridiculously dogged. Dan Rather started attacking the Bush family back when GW senior was vice-president. This is just another example of him being a dumbass. And I would spell that word, "pursue," by the way. Even other conspiracy theorists actually have fact to back them up. The story you quoted doesn't even show up on the website you linked.

ROFL
You are an idiot. Notice that none of your left-wing buddies are backing you up? That's because you are a fool. You are the biggest fool I have ever met. Your comments are biased, unbacked, and ridiculously dogged. Dan Rather started attacking the Bush family back when GW senior was vice-president. This is just another example of him being a dumbass. And I would spell that word, "pursue," by the way. Even other conspiracy theorists actually have fact to back them up. The story you quoted doesn't even show up on the website you linked.
it does too show up on the website if you search for it. I dont require backup when I fight. Your add homonous assault exposes your desperation. It doesnt cause me to yield.

it does too show up on the website if you search for it. I dont require backup when I fight. Your add homonous assault exposes your desperation. It doesnt cause me to yield.

Provide us with a link that backs up what you say. If you don't then you are seen as someone that can back up what you say. I have asked you to provide proof about your statements but you have yet to do so because you can't!

Either start providing the said backup since the burden is on you or shut up.

"We've secretly replaced MKULTRA with a paranoid schizophrenic. Let's see if anyone notices."

"wow did you get the new imporveed MKULTRA? it seems more neutral and laidback"

First of all, if the parapeligic was hit by a friendly grenade, how does this mean it was his Grenade.

Second, when did the New York Times become an unreliable source.

And finally MKULTRA at first I thought you were an overzealous liberal democrat but now I see you are just a communist.

"Its more important to persue the truth first and let the facts adjust themselves to it later."

This is just pushing for the removal of actual truth and replacing it with sponsored truth.

By the way what ever happened to the people who wanted small government?

Second, when did the New York Times become an unreliable source.

Ever heard of Jason Blair and the scandal that rocked it?

yeah by Christian fundie wack jobs (the same sickos who were so jealous of Clintons sex life) who have no sex lives of their own and project all their repressed perversions onto everyone around them-these people are so uptight if you shove a piece of coal up their asses youd get a diamond
I'm sorry if I have really strong butt muscles, but I can hardly believe all us fundamentalist Christians have such capabilities.
I start to get the feeling that you don't think much. How is it that you believe waiting until marriage before having sex is a perversion? Jealousy has nothing to do with moral objections to immmoral behavior. Clinton was morally reprehensible, but that was insufficient reason to impeach him as President, although perjury, as I would see it, does.
I would greatly desire to meet you in person. I wonder how you would act if you were unprotected by your computer screen? Maybe I could try to beat the stupid out of you, if I didn't want to cause any more damage than is already evident.

its more important to persue the truth first and let the facts adjust themselves to it later
How do you pursue the truth without using facts to find it?
I really want to know.

Ever heard of Jason Blair and the scandal that rocked it?
so basically it became unreliable when a liberal tried to use it to back up something htey said isntead of a conervative doing it

...when did the New York Times become an unreliable source....
By the way what ever happened to the people who wanted small government?
The New York Times has been noted for a more liberal bias, particularly with regards to editorials, but I wouldn't propose tossing them out of the picture entirely if they have facts to back up their statements. We just need to be careful with all news outlets.
The Republicans are supposed to be more for small government and still are, but now it seems that the emphasis is on that part of the party's platform to a far lesser degree. I vote for them on moral issues now more than anything else, but take your pick.

The President is a SCUM and should be egged and spat upon wherever he goes

You have just threatened the life of the President of the United States. As with your other posts, another one like this and I shall report you to the proper athourities -- the FBI, USSS, etc.

Provide us with a link that backs up what you say. If you don't then you are seen as someone that can back up what you say. I have asked you to provide proof about your statements but you have yet to do so because you can't!

Either start providing the said backup since the burden is on you or shut up.
my proof is what people are saying in NY political circles

First of all, if the parapeligic was hit by a friendly grenade, how does this mean it was his Grenade.

Second, when did the New York Times become an unreliable source.

And finally MKULTRA at first I thought you were an overzealous liberal democrat but now I see you are just a communist.

"Its more important to persue the truth first and let the facts adjust themselves to it later."

This is just pushing for the removal of actual truth and replacing it with sponsored truth.

By the way what ever happened to the people who wanted small government?
Bullcrap--I oppose the Chinese govt alot more then the Bushs do. I dont support tyranny of any kind so dont try to lay that bogus label on me-I never said anything about sponsored truth--all I said was persue the truth and the facts will take care of themselves

I'm sorry if I have really strong butt muscles, but I can hardly believe all us fundamentalist Christians have such capabilities.
I start to get the feeling that you don't think much. How is it that you believe waiting until marriage before having sex is a perversion? Jealousy has nothing to do with moral objections to immmoral behavior. Clinton was morally reprehensible, but that was insufficient reason to impeach him as President, although perjury, as I would see it, does.
I would greatly desire to meet you in person. I wonder how you would act if you were unprotected by your computer screen? Maybe I could try to beat the stupid out of you, if I didn't want to cause any more damage than is already evident.
its mentally ill to think that consensual sex is immoral--and what does marriage have to do with sex anyway?

its mentally ill to think that consensual sex is immoral--and what does marriage have to do with sex anyway?


ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

MKULTRA, are you an idiot?

China is no longer a Communist State. I would know, seeing as how I live in Beijing. China is gradually making the change to a multi-party democracy. At the moment, they are essentially a single-party democracy, but the people have far more freedom than they did even ten years ago. There are no longer bans on foreign imports, or an overwhelming amount of artificially suppressed inflation. The people are no longer paid by the government. Each year, the number of state-run companies falls as they are sold off or consolidated into others.

China has the 7th largest economy in the world, and it is growing at an incredible rate...so fast, in fact, that the government is searching for ways to slow down the growth in order to prevent the 'bubble' from bursting. The People's Republic of China has realized that Capitalism benefits the country far more than a collective Communist society, and it is because of this that the country has been so successful in recent years.

Before you go shooting your mouth off, get your facts straight.

MKULTRA, are you an idiot?

China is no longer a Communist State. I would know, seeing as how I live in Beijing. China is gradually making the change to a multi-party democracy. At the moment, they are essentially a single-party democracy, but the people have far more freedom than they did even ten years ago. There are no longer bans on foreign imports, or an overwhelming amount of artificially suppressed inflation. The people are no longer paid by the government. Each year, the number of state-run companies falls as they are sold off or consolidated into others.

China has the 7th largest economy in the world, and it is growing at an incredible rate...so fast, in fact, that the government is searching for ways to slow down the growth in order to prevent the 'bubble' from bursting. The People's Republic of China has realized that Capitalism benefits the country far more than a collective Communist society, and it is because of this that the country has been so successful in recent years.

Before you go shooting your mouth off, get your facts straight.

Chairman Mao is spinning in his grave right now. However....I don't think there will be a second party allowed for a LONG time....if ever. Those in power don't like to give it up do they?

MKULTRA is not an idiot......he would have to get promoted to attain that rank. ;)

Yes, I agree with you. Mao must be tearing his hair out right now. :D

I also agree with you as to the likelihood of a multi-party democracy emerging for a while. You are correct, the CCCP has no real desire to give up its power in the government. Still, there are already slight indications that opposing ideals are starting to tug the party around in different directions. Given the tremendous economic success of China in recent years, there are differing opinions as to what to do now, some of them reflecting very right- or left-leaning tendencies. Although there may not be a true multi-party democracy in place for some time, it is likely that a divide of ideals will emerge in the CCCP itself in the next decade.

Jiang Zemin's decision to finally step down from his position as the chairman of the Central Military Commission marks a willingness to pass the leadership of China into the hands of a new generation, President Hu Jintao and Vice President Wen Jiabao. Some people saw Jiang Zemin as a 'leftover' from the days of Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping, when Communist ideals were enforced.

my proof is what people are saying in NY political circles

Say it with me: Hearsay. Is. Not. Proof.

Bullcrap--I oppose the Chinese govt alot more then the Bushs do. I dont support tyranny of any kind so dont try to lay that bogus label on me-I never said anything about sponsored truth--all I said was persue the truth and the facts will take care of themselves

And in this case, they're not taking care of themselves. What does that say about your "truth"?

the reason politics have reached this level is because of republicans themselves along with hate radio and FOXNEWS theyre the ones who invented the politics of personal destruction when Clinton was President-You just dont like a taste of your own medicine


You're right, MKULTRA. There are idiots replacing rational thought with banal bile and distortions on both sides. People who would rather feel smug about themselves than make hard, informed decisions for the good of our society.

not really--Dan Rather has nothing to apologize for, he knows Bush is a coward who never served.The republicans should apologize to CBS for exploiting Rather in such a partisan manner with documents the republicans themselves forged :mad:
Thats bullshit if i ever saw it, Dan Rather put that on the air, when the family said " Thats not my dad's/huspend's work. " He is a liar, and a criminal. You've got a better chance of me apologiseing to France.

Thats bullshit if i ever saw it, Dan Rather put that on the air, when the family said " Thats not my dad's/huspend's work. " He is a liar, and a criminal. You've got a better chance of me apologiseing to France.
but his secretary said that was the feeling around the office. though his family would know him at home, the secretary, you know, works there

Stone now catagorically denies having anything to do with the documents. He has challanged McAuliffe, who is spreading these rumors, to produce any evidence connecting Stone to the documents.

Sort of a "put up or shut up" challange.