NationStates Jolt Archive

Why not let all EU nations keep their currencys with their names and just make it have the same value, or add a Euro stamp with security features,
the first part should take care of nationalist feelings on the Euro.

It might cost a little more than now, but they had it before.

Wow. Can we take it as read that Perrien has been, ah, slapped down good and proper?

No, he is just on most debaters ignore list, so we don't see his posts anymore :D

I think the biggest difference between the U.S and Europe is that on the whole U.S citizens believe in their country and its values. In Europe patriotism is a dirty word and cynicism is utterly pervasive. If you hang a flag out of your window on any other occasion than a sporting one you a dubbed a racist, that would never happen in the U.S..
I think that differs from country to country though. It is certainly not the case in Switzerland - where I´ve seen a lot of flags. Neither in France. More certainly in Germany - though the German flag is the flag of the democratic and liberal movement of the 19 th century and not the flag of 1933-1945. It wasn´t even the flag between 1871-1918.


A word quite popular in Europe at the moment is 'toleration', I don't really understand what people mean by this - why on earth should I have to 'tolerate' something if I believe it is wrong. We in Europe, or at least in Britian seem to wish to bend over backwards to appease the attitudes and beliefs of others. I read an article in the guardian that seemed to sum this up, the writer was commenting on a recent finding by a governmental report into the Islamic method of killing animals - 'halal', they concluded that the practice was inhumane, yet the writer of the article seemed more concerned about "not offending the Muslim community" than banning something that is morally wrong..
Well, I´m not so shure about what you are talking about - vocabulary problem. But I think you are referring to the practise of muslims to kill animals alive as sacrifice and their method of doing that. There was a dispute about this in Germany as well. The Jewish community actually second the position of the muslim community since they are using simular practises. This was a dispute between protection of animals and religious freedom. The decision in that respect went for religous freedom.
France by the way banned religious symbols in schools - including head-scarfs - because it thinks it to be wrong that religion should have a place in school. It can be disputed whether that is right or wrong - I personally have great sympathy for it - but you can´t say that they don´t stay up for their belief and the implementation of it. Also terrorists blackmail didn´t stop France from implementing it. Most German states have banned religious symbols for teachers - which of course also includes head-scarfs.
There is a tendency in the political left in Europe to denounce all those things as evil and to preach toleration. But this toleration really goes to far. I have the opinion that actually people are fed up with the "dictatorship of the political correctness". Results like those of the Front National in France or Haiders Freedom democrats or the List Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands were actually a warning shot for the ruling class. I actually see a development more in the direction to finally begin to crack-down on islamist tendencies.

I think one of the reasons why the military of Europe is so vastly downgraded in comparison to the U.S is that we do not have enough faith in our own values and beliefs to believe that we should enforce them throughout the world. We see things like human rights, personal freedoms and democracy is being "western" in basis and not necessarily ones that should be promoted universally...
The question is how they should be promoted. Preventive strikes may not be the best method, especially if there is no realistic concept for reshapping a country.
We can not change the whole world. This awareness is certainly bigger in Europe than in the US. Though probably we have become too cautious though. On the other hand: missions like in Bosnia and Kosovo - where our own interests were at stake where done also by European nations. France and even Germany participated on that.
Regarding the military: the UK spents 2,6% and France 2,5% for it. In 2001 the US "only" spent 3,2% for it. The accusation of underfunding its military can rather be directed towards other countries like Spain, Italy or - mostly - Germany.


I appreciate there are a lot of generalisations here, but these are necessary in order to talk about general trends. Europe has a lot of good points, but the level of cynicism and our lack of faith in our own values is certainly not one of them. In this respect at least, I wish we were more like the U.S.
Maybe then I could hang a flag out of my window.
You are right in many points. But I think the trend has actually shifted in Continental Europe in the 1990s with the Balkanic wars. European countries have increased their participation in foreign peace-keeping missions substantially. So I quite honestly think that the policy of governments in that respect has gone further than public opinion. Though even that has gradually changed given the fact that majorities approved of the actions against Yugoslavia and Afghanistan.
Iraq could be a role-back. But I don´t think so. The threat is real and we all know that. And regardless of the fact whether we consider the Iraq intervention as right or wrong their are still a lot of common interests. For example to prevent the spread of WMD in North Africa and to prevent islamists from coming to power over there.

Or, perhaps, Genaia, we are not as arrogant to believe that our way is the right way.

Fighting for ideals is bullshit. Try reading about Gandhi. Do you really believe the Iraqi people see us as the people who freed them? They probably feel it is the other way around.

Faith? FAITH? God is dead. Read Nietzsche or a biology book.

If you hang a flag out of your window on any other occasion than a sporting one you a dubbed a racist

Where exactly in Europe do you live?

I think one of the reasons why the military of Europe is so vastly downgraded in comparison to the U.S is that we do not have enough faith in our own values and beliefs to believe that we should enforce them throughout the world.

You do? I believe it is because some people believe health-care, education and the likes are more important than having a military. But, yours sounds better, so you are probably right.. *wink* *wink*

I appreciate there are a lot of generalisations here, but these are necessary in order to talk about general trends.

I believe I posted the word Bullshit already in this post, yet I will post it again. General trends? What general trend? We have no idea what the future holds!

Oh, and as I may be so bold, but I do believe that many French citizens are very nationalistic, as well as many English people. Still, if you do not feel at home in Europe, maybe you should move to the US...

Mr U

I admire the way Europe has united, the way they share resources, taxes and
workers, I wish the Hispanic nations would do the same Brazil included.

They have started to but they still have a long way to go.

The hispanic sumits are a joke, they make promises they cant keep because there is no political structure to make them happen.

I will have a thread on superstate unions with some intresting statistics that will cover most of the world in the near future.

I admire the way Europe has united, the way they share resources, taxes and
workers, I wish the Hispanic nations would do the same Brazil included.

Europe has not united, it's govts have. It is good that they have stopped violently preventing private citizens from moving themselves and their resources around as this was immoral and counter-productive, but it is not good that they have started to standardise and share in violently plundering decent peoples' earnings via taxation.

I admire the way Europe has united, the way they share resources, taxes and
workers, I wish the Hispanic nations would do the same Brazil included.

They have started to but they still have a long way to go.

The hispanic sumits are a joke, they make promises they cant keep because there is no political structure to make them happen.

I will have a thread on superstate unions with some intresting statistics that will cover most of the world in the near future.

Santa- nita, a question.
Your from latin america right? Would you like latin america to work along the same goal in the future? that is the idea of USLA (united states of latin america)?

By the time this works, no one in the world will think of themselves in terms of nationstates(we will think of ourselves as humans). The EU has as much chance of becoming a conglomorate as Hindus, Muslims, and Christrians will believe in the same thing.

Quite honestly, that's bollocks. It's already on its way. The EU is seen as a seperate entity. Thereby meaning that we're about halfway along towards a united Europe.

And "United States of Europe"? What the hell is wrong with you people?!? That only applies when the groupings joining the conglomerate ARE NOT COUNTRIES! And why, exactly, would we want to sound like America anyway?

Why not let all EU nations keep their currencys with their names and just make it have the same value, or add a Euro stamp with security features,
the first part should take care of nationalist feelings on the Euro.

It might cost a little more than now, but they had it before.

Is there a problem then? All that nationalist crap, once the change is the complaining stops. Anyhow, the euro does well and your suggestion is far to complicated to be executed. I would even say unrealistic. There isn't a problem now, and every country can join when it feels ready. I don't think we're in a hurry.

About that whole United States of Europe thing... The name has kind of a negative ring to it doesn't it? :p

I like the way it is now. With a counsel and a parleament. No way I would want a president conducting our wonderfull coctail of different cultures. A common army and ministers to conduct foreign affairs in name of europe, no problem, but I wouldn't want to give power over all European nations to one person. Especially not when major corporations would be able to support their candidate! Bloody corporations mustn't have any say in politics, they corrupt!

It's interesting to read many posters posting that "Europe is socialist", they "work less hours than USA" etc.

The fact is that American political spectrum is as a whole to the right of the European (and most of the rest of the world's) political spectrum. That's why to many Europeans, the US Democratic party seems at best centre/centre-right and the Republican party often appears as far right. Hence, often we don't really see your two-party system as offering a real range of opinion/choice (there are of course other parties, but the chances of them ever getting elected means that few people see the point to vote for them). For the same reason, Americans are likely to see our system, with broader opinions from the far-right all the way through to the far-left, as being "socialist" compared to their right-dominated system.

Secondly, regarding work hours / social welfare etc; these matters are seen differently by Europeans than Americans, and we should all accept this. It doesn't make either view wrong or right, we should respect differences. Europeans put more emphasis on having leisure time (eg, we have far more entitlement to paid holiday than Americans) and quality time to spend with the family etc, and realise it's not necessary to have excess money if one can live comfortably and happily on our more modest incomes. Americans tend to believe in work, work, work and that the best society is where one strives to earn as much as possible. Many Europeans also believe the the state and society have a wider responsibility towards all their members, in providing for them and ensuring they don't fall into hardship during times of difficulty and in old age. If you look at the percentage of people living in poverty in western Europe compared to USA, you will see it is far lower. So, it's a difference in philosophy and values - again, doesn't make either correct or wrong.

Secondly, regarding work hours / social welfare etc; these matters are seen differently by Europeans than Americans, and we should all accept this. It doesn't make either view wrong or right, we should respect differences. Europeans put more emphasis on having leisure time (eg, we have far more entitlement to paid holiday than Americans) and quality time to spend with the family etc, and realise it's not necessary to have excess money if one can live comfortably and happily on our more modest incomes. Americans tend to believe in work, work, work and that the best society is where one strives to earn as much as possible. Many Europeans also believe the the state and society have a wider responsibility towards all their members, in providing for them and ensuring they don't fall into hardship during times of difficulty and in old age. If you look at the percentage of people living in poverty in western Europe compared to USA, you will see it is far lower. So, it's a difference in philosophy and values - again, doesn't make either correct or wrong.
But due to globalisatin we need to be competetive.
Socialism doesn´t fit with that. We even see that in Europe. Jobs and companies are wandering massively to the East, especially for the lower qualified jobs but not only that. We need to cut in our welfare state, decrease taxes and improve the demand side in order to remain competetive. Not just towards Eastern Europe - our economies are already growing together - but towards the US and even more East Asia.
We need to wake up otherwise we loose our competetivness. I therefore support deep cuts in the welfare state. Surprisingly the German left-wing government has made a begining in 2003 (after an conservative-liberal attempt from 1996-98).
It is moving in the right direction.
We need to reduce our welfare state to a minimum - just enshure a minimum standard an cut back everything else. Otherwise we loose competitiveness.
The anglo-saxon modell (including Britain) is in that sense economically superior to the welfare state.
Scandinavia is only able to escape that due to oil (Norway) and a very qualified population. But you are going to get the same problem soon when East Asia catches up.
Then also you are going to see the end of the welfare paradise - as Britain did during the 1980s and more and more also Germany is heading to today - though not that extreme. But it needs to get extreme to be competive again.

But due to globalisatin we need to be competetive.
Socialism doesn´t fit with that. We even see that in Europe. Jobs and companies are wandering massively to the East, especially for the lower qualified jobs but not only that. We need to cut in our welfare state, decrease taxes and improve the demand side in order to remain competetive. Not just towards Eastern Europe - our economies are already growing together - but towards the US and even more East Asia.
We need to wake up otherwise we loose our competetivness. I therefore support deep cuts in the welfare state. Surprisingly the German left-wing government has made a begining in 2003 (after an conservative-liberal attempt from 1996-98).
It is moving in the right direction.
We need to reduce our welfare state to a minimum - just enshure a minimum standard an cut back everything else. Otherwise we loose competitiveness.
The anglo-saxon modell (including Britain) is in that sense economically superior to the welfare state.
Scandinavia is only able to escape that due to oil (Norway) and a very qualified population. But you are going to get the same problem soon when East Asia catches up.
Then also you are going to see the end of the welfare paradise - as Britain did during the 1980s and more and more also Germany is heading to today - though not that extreme. But it needs to get extreme to be competive again.

We'll see what tomorrow brings...hopefully not yet another useless invasion. ;)

The anglo-saxon modell (including Britain) is in that sense economically superior to the welfare state.
I could have sworn Britain has a welfare state as well.

But it needs to get extreme to be competive again.
A slap on the wrist every now and then is good to wake them up.
But gutting the welfare state isn't enough to get competitive again. Education is key in this. I trust you heard about the OECD report?

We'll see what tomorrow brings...hopefully not yet another useless invasion. ;)
Whether it was useless remains to be seen.
The development of that region is heading in a very dangerous direction. Totalitarianism is gaining strength. I don´t know to what that could lead. But both Russia and Germany suffered themself and made others suffer under their totalitarian dictators.
I´m very concerned about the development of that region. We need to be on our watch. Whether preventive strikes are the right strategy? I don´t know, I doubt it. But we must try to contain this development.

I could have sworn Britain has a welfare state as well.

You forget Maggie Thatcher. That changed a lot. We also would need an iron lady.

You forget Maggie Thatcher. That changed a lot. We also would need an iron lady.
Still, gutting the welfare state alone isn't enough. We need to increase spending for education and to completely cut subsidies for dying industries like coal mining. Billions are wasted in coal mining every year. Money that could be of far greater use elsewhere.

Except of the fact that the Empires of European countries have reached their peak before and are declining while the American Empire is still rising.
Due to that fact there is of course a different perception of Imperialism. After all: Imperialism is bad if it is done by others but not by oneself.
On the other hand: the US has always criticized Europe for their imperialists policies. It was the first colony which seized independence against its European motherland.
And it also went to World War I to stop German imperialism. Aside of World War II where it stopped Japanese imperialism and also - together with Britain and the Soviets - German imperialism.
But for what? I think for freedom and alliances with it and not for a new imperialism.
America was able to gain popularity because it stood for different things than imperialism. It stood for freedom and democracy and not for imperialism. Well, that perception changed with Vietnam and even more now.
Imperialists powers are never popular. If you go that path you have to live with that fact and shouldn´t complain about it.

I wasn't complaining. All I said was that Europe and the US aren't all that different. Personally, I think these arguements over who's better than who are idiotic because they all eventually turn to using stereotypes that have little basis. Just because the US has a handful of rude, loudmouthed idiots who go around flag flags and claiming their the best damn thing since sliced bread does not mean the rest of Americans are like that. And I'm quite sure the same thing goes for other countries that have equally stupid stereotypes huanting them. In fact, that's why this arguements get started in the first place is because of stereotypes. Stereotypes allow us to think we're better than others, but reality is that we're all human. We all feel emotion. We all make mistakes. And we all have trouble admitting our own mistakes.

It's interesting to read many posters posting that "Europe is socialist", they "work less hours than USA" etc.

The fact is that American political spectrum is as a whole to the right of the European (and most of the rest of the world's) political spectrum. That's why to many Europeans, the US Democratic party seems at best centre/centre-right and the Republican party often appears as far right. Hence, often we don't really see your two-party system as offering a real range of opinion/choice (there are of course other parties, but the chances of them ever getting elected means that few people see the point to vote for them). For the same reason, Americans are likely to see our system, with broader opinions from the far-right all the way through to the far-left, as being "socialist" compared to their right-dominated system.

Secondly, regarding work hours / social welfare etc; these matters are seen differently by Europeans than Americans, and we should all accept this. It doesn't make either view wrong or right, we should respect differences. Europeans put more emphasis on having leisure time (eg, we have far more entitlement to paid holiday than Americans) and quality time to spend with the family etc, and realise it's not necessary to have excess money if one can live comfortably and happily on our more modest incomes. Americans tend to believe in work, work, work and that the best society is where one strives to earn as much as possible. Many Europeans also believe the the state and society have a wider responsibility towards all their members, in providing for them and ensuring they don't fall into hardship during times of difficulty and in old age. If you look at the percentage of people living in poverty in western Europe compared to USA, you will see it is far lower. So, it's a difference in philosophy and values - again, doesn't make either correct or wrong.


Thank you! Both excellent points, and very well put. :)

Originally posted by Perrien
"Maybe you don't know anything about American politics."

Unfortunately for Americans, we cannot see past the flashy political campaigns with lots of patriotic music and big flash posters and bill boards. Most of us are so ignorant of our polictical system that we fail to see that it is not really a democracy at all, but a coporate hegemony run by and directly influenced by the coporations of this country.

This is where i am not proud to call my self an American :( ...

The politicians of this country are merely puppets whom are owned by which ever coporation is backing thier political campaign, any one who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. I mean when was the last time you ever heards of any normal "Joe Bloggs" getting elected into the presidency? Although it says quite clearly in our constitution that any man can become president and be elected so, it would be apsolutely impossible for this to occur in todays world.

Please all of you non- American's out there don't be too harsh on the rest of us who are clueless to the reality of things and reside somewhere beneath the protective arm of good old uncle sam like nieve little children, being fed what to think and how the rest of the world see's us. The mass media (also a product of coporate hegemony) leads the easily influenced to believe that the rest of the world see the U.S as the saviour of our world and the best thing since sliced bread. In reality all of you our there in Europe and Australasia can see that real truth.

Dont hold it against an American if he is ignorant of the rest of the world... we dont get taught in any detail about anything but the U.S. It is standard practice in public schools to shine over the facts with nice little fantasy tales about the world.

Until we as an American people realise that we have lost our true freedom (to think for ourselves) we will never truely be free. until then it is up to the rest of the world especially the EU to provide guidance and enlightenment to us. And help become the great country we once were.

Or, perhaps, Genaia, we are not as arrogant to believe that our way is the right way.

Fighting for ideals is bullshit. Try reading about Gandhi. Do you really believe the Iraqi people see us as the people who freed them? They probably feel it is the other way around.

Faith? FAITH? God is dead. Read Nietzsche or a biology book.



Where exactly in Europe do you live?



You do? I believe it is because some people believe health-care, education and the likes are more important than having a military. But, yours sounds better, so you are probably right.. *wink* *wink*



I believe I posted the word Bullshit already in this post, yet I will post it again. General trends? What general trend? We have no idea what the future holds!

Oh, and as I may be so bold, but I do believe that many French citizens are very nationalistic, as well as many English people. Still, if you do not feel at home in Europe, maybe you should move to the US...

Mr U


Arrogance, arrogance, lets look around the world shall we - south America, where the largest export is (drumroll) opium and where military dictatorships run amock, or lets look to Asia where the concept of human rights and compassionate government are yet to leave their infancy, or perhaps the Arab world where right wing extremism runs amock, where churches are destroyed in terrorist attacks (if you think I'm arrogant you might want to look at the tolerance of certain groups operating in Iraq at the moment and the widespread attitudes that do not necessarily condemn them), or perhaps where the subjugation of women is permitted, even as far as sentencing a married woman to death by stoning for the crime of "infidelity" after she was raped (Nigeria).

Fighting for ideas is all we have, when I use the word "faith" you seem to automatically dismiss it as some kind of irrational theological concept, what about faith in humanity or even faith in some kind of fucking abstract noun - hope, justice, freedom or even love. Where is the arrogance in democracy, it is not OUR way, it is the right to choose, freedom likewise is the right to choose. Either way I have a question - do you believe in the attitudes or values of another culture or nation, or are you automatically dismissing our own out of some pathetically populist sense of 'objectivity'. Do you believe that we have the right to choose our own government? Do you believe that all human beings ought to have equal opportunities in life? Do you believe that they ought to be able to choose their own path in life insofar as it does not erode the path of others? Or will you qualify each answer with "but". We have come so far in life only with people like you to maintain arguments which serve no other purpose than being destructively ambiguous.

If only I'd read "Nietzsche or a biology book" (you say that with a sense of pride don't you?) then perhaps I'd be the embodiment of some kind of pure rationalism. I would know that there is no such thing as faith, that God does not exist and perhaps even that red is a better colour than blue.

Do the Iraqis see us as the people that freed them? Some do, most probably don't. I think the war was a mistake, at least under Saddam the region was stable and not a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Are the Iraqis free? The U.S and others are trying to install a system whereby Iraqis can choose for themselves in 6 months who they would like to govern them, what are the insurgents fighting for can I ask. There are times when it really is laughable. It's too bad we're so deeply involved in the region, otherwise we could just laugh back.

I live in the UK, England, Wiltshire, Swindon - where I too believe in the merits of a healthcare system, of an educational system, so much so that I would hope other countries will one day aspire to have such systems also. (I guess it's too bad that so many Iraqis looted their hospitals and schools after the war). Maybe by having a strong military we can promote similar standards throughout the world, we can stop the ongoing genocide in Darfur, we can remove corrupt and murderous regimes such as the Taleban, we can launch strikes against terrorist encampments intent on murdering civilians, we can protect and stengthen the infrastructure of aid convoys on dangerous missions in instable regions.

Then again, perhaps that's just arrogance - we should leave the rest of the world to sort itself out because interfering would just be plain egotistic. We ought to stand by whilst Darfur plays itself out - we don't want to be arrogatn and suppose that the Khartoum governments policy of genocide is morally wrong, or that Saddam Hussein shouldn't murder over a million people - who are we to make such objective statements, that's for God to do, and as Nieitzsche so eloquently explained "God is dead" (but then - what happened to Nieitzsche?)

The difference between us is that I believe that we have a moral obligation to try and make the world a better place, you evidently do not, or at least are so unsure of yourself that you cannot decide between the objective merits of tyranny and freedom (western definition based of course).

I'll remember that the next time you get into a war, and I'll send my boys to Canada to ride it out....using your logic we would have let your asses destroy each other a few times now. I hope we dig up our dead and bring them home sooner than later, becuase you just keep shitting on them at every opportunity.

You make it sound like the US has single-handedly put an end to all conflicts in Europe. Please also respect the dead British, French, Soviets, and all the others who also perished in the wars.

I'm not against countries building up armed forces for defensive purposes. In fact I have often demonstrated willingness to work for the military. However one thing is to keep good defensive measures, and another thing is to proactively wage war without expiring all diplomatic routes, and demand that all your friends join in such madness.

Remember who your enemy is. The terrorists are a few bad ants hiding in vast nests. You keep trying to hit the surrounding areas with sledge hammers, when you should be infiltrating the nests and undermining their organisation from the very core. Attacking Iraq only turned more kids into terrorist wannabes. More bad ants to deal with.

I think one of the reasons why the military of Europe is so vastly downgraded in comparison to the U.S is that we do not have enough faith in our own values and beliefs to believe that we should enforce them throughout the world. We see things like human rights, personal freedoms and democracy is being "western" in basis and not necessarily ones that should be promoted universally.


You think like a European of the 17th century. We were going to enforce our moral and way of living on the poor and neglected tribes who can hardly survive in their hostile invironment. By destroying their way of living we thought we could civilise them, a sort of crusade. Thinking the European way of living was the only civilised way. Not knowing the tribes had a decent way of living and a way they prefered. But still...we thought we had the best for them. Now at least, that was what the people in Europe believed, we white man are civilising the tribes and are "saving" them from their hostile living conditions. Till the truth came out about the torture, chopping of hands and raping women, the slavery, ... Yes we brought civilisation all right. I'm a shamed for what some of our ancestors did in the name of our civilisation. And now the US thinks they can enforce their civilisation upon a nation that has its own culture. Their way of thinking is set back a couple of centuries. I hope we never go on some sort of half assed crusade to enforce our ideals and moral on the world or any part of the world. Eventually things evolve the right way, or the wrong way, who are we to meddle in it if it doesn't concern us? No one asks, please oh superior beings come and teach us good manners and democracy?

Genaia, I do agree with some of what you said.
America has the will and the strength to help improve the world.
Its just sad that they only appear to get involved when the US will benefit.
No-one except a few european countries and some african gave a shit about Sudan until oil was discovered there.

If the US really wanted to help the world and bring liberty, justice and such to the less fortunate, maybe they should use their strengh in helping resolve the Kashmir Issue, prevent Congo slipping back into civil war, or helping Tibet regain its independence.

The US has done some admirable things in its time, but most of its recent activities seem self-serving.