NationStates Jolt Archive

As there has be recent discussions of a United States of Europe (and Tony Blair wanting the crown) do you think it will work? Do you think that all the countries will surrender to a singular identity as they are to the Euro?

A United States of Europe will work, but it will take a long time for all the pieces to fall into place. It will start out with most of the current EU, then some other states will join such as Britain, the Czech Republic, etc. Given enough time, the EU will probably include most of eastern Europe as well, throwing in Turkey for good measure eventually.

Nationalists will fight the integration of states, and eastern Europeans may be against it at first, but give it to the year 2100 and the United States of Europe will consist of most of Europe and will be one sovereign nation made up of many states. They will also be the world's largest superpower.

"The United States of Europe"???

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?

No no no...

Try :

"European Union."

Better sounding, yes?

As there has be recent discussions of a United States of Europe (and Tony Blair wanting the crown) do you think it will work? Do you think that all the countries will surrender to a singular identity as they are to the Euro?


By the time this works, no one in the world will think of themselves in terms of nationstates(we will think of ourselves as humans). The EU has as much chance of becoming a conglomorate as Hindus, Muslims, and Christrians will believe in the same thing.

Mobility, and economics will unite us one day, but that day is far away. Gotta get rid of competing interests first. OR gotta find a common enemy.

Mobility, and economics will unite us one day, but that day is far away. Gotta get rid of competing interests first. OR gotta find a common enemy.


This is where aliens come in, right?

Let's look at a few issues:

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks

This is where aliens come in, right?


works in the movies.

Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.



Why dont you just shut the hell up?

Why dont you just shut the hell up?

Why is that? Economically, technologically, socially, human rights, oppressive to thy neighbors...they still show Australia as "New China" on all of their school maps in class.

What do you have against apes? You came from them...some societies are closer to that stage than others...other than North Korea, most of the Middle East, parts of Asia and almost all of Africa, China is not far from being knuckel draggers...that term simply means under developed...the earth was thought to be flat not so long ago...don't be so sensitive...everyone has hurt feelings these days...

Yes, that was kinda of an offending remark there...

Anyway, back to the topic, I don't think it'll work out due to governmental politics. Its politics that screw that unity up. Besides, they could have done it a long time ago, now the world's economy is shifting to the East, Asia.

Why dont you just shut the hell up?


Why dont u bang ur head against a wall?

That guys opinions might be off track, but given that Europe is stagnating now, how much more would it suffer if it actually had to pay to defend itself?

You guys have managed to survive under the umbrela of US protection for the last 70years. Times have changed. we are rebalancing our military.

its time you started carrying the weight of your own freedom.

Good luck.

Drop us a line when you figure out the price of freedom.

edit: oh, and please explain why a cup of coffee costs 2x as much in London as it does in NYC.

thats a basket of goods adjusted number. Yeah, ur system is doing right by u guys.

Let's look at a few issues:

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks
every europian speaks english
they have a smaller population but a smarter than the US
that also explains why most of europe is socialist
europe has achieved more than the US ever will muahahahaha :mp5:

Isanyonehome, ur not from the US are u?
So, u live in Europe then?

Why dont u bang ur head against a wall?

That guys opinions might be off track, but given that Europe is stagnating now, how much more would it suffer if it actually had to pay to defend itself?

You guys have managed to survive under the umbrela of US protection for the last 70years. Times have changed. we are rebalancing our military.

its time you started carrying the weight of your own freedom.

Good luck.

Drop us a line when you figure out the price of freedom.


What in the green hell are you talking about?

Why dont u bang ur head against a wall?

That guys opinions might be off track, but given that Europe is stagnating now, how much more would it suffer if it actually had to pay to defend itself?

You guys have managed to survive under the umbrela of US protection for the last 70years. Times have changed. we are rebalancing our military.

its time you started carrying the weight of your own freedom.

Good luck.

Drop us a line when you figure out the price of freedom.
your not carrying europe...
actually europe is carrying the USA
beceause western-europe has better living conditions than the US

Isanyonehome, ur not from the US are u?
So, u live in Europe then?

I am from the US (mostly) and unfortunately I am forced to spend my money in Europe(well, mostly the UK). I havent been to Germany of France in a long time . but I miss the sidewalk crepe vendors, and the smoking cars in the French subway. I loved it that u had to pay extra to sit in a car that didnt allowsmoking.

Why is that? Economically, technologically, socially, human rights, oppressive to thy neighbors...they still show Australia as "New China" on all of their school maps in class.

I doubt personally, if you've been to many classrooms.
Particularly in China.

What do you have against apes? You came from them...some societies are closer to that stage than others...other than North Korea, most of the Middle East, parts of Asia and almost all of Africa, China is not far from being knuckel draggers...that term simply means under developed...the earth was thought to be flat not so long ago...don't be so sensitive...everyone has hurt feelings these days...

If people have hurt feelings maybe its becuase of people like you.
Your preaching about a country you have likely never been to...
Your ridiculing people you have never met.
What does this say about you?

your not carrying europe...
actually europe is carrying the USA
beceause western-europe has better living conditions than the US

Wow, good answer.

Too bad it doesnt reflect reality.

regardlaess, there is no point in getting into a pissing match over this. You guys go your way, we will go ours.

The cold war is over.

At some point it will will be clear which societyphilosophy has done more right by its citizens.

your not carrying europe...
actually europe is carrying the USA
beceause western-europe has better living conditions than the US

Better living conditions? Your socialist. That means your all sitting on your fat asses while your debt goes through the roof. Your grandchildren are going to hate you for working the least amount possible and dumping your old fat ass on them to take care of when your old. Enjoy your old age, as your all going to be living in group homes we call Homeless shelters.

look at sweden and norway
great living conditions (actually the best in the world)
but you americans probably dont believe the facts...

Better living conditions? Your socialist. That means your all sitting on your fat asses while your debt goes through the roof. Your grandchildren are going to hate you for working the least amount possible and dumping your old fat ass on them to take care of when your old. Enjoy your old age, as your all going to be living in group homes we call Homeless shelters.
this proves how phew americans know about socialism and communism

look at sweden and norway
great living conditions (actually the best in the world)
but you americans probably dont believe the facts...


Thats becuase you havent shown us any.

I doubt personally, if you've been to many classrooms.
Particularly in China.



If people have hurt feelings maybe its becuase of people like you.
Your preaching about a country you have likely never been to...
Your ridiculing people you have never met.
What does this say about you?

Listen, before you go all glossy eyed on me and start crying or something...

Do you live in a cave? When you have no idea what your talking about, why is the comeback...how do you know, you've never been there. Do you have any clue how it is to live in China? I have worked in China on several occasions in both the Aerospace Industry and the Glass Industry. I did actually do something after the military. Let me tell you, it is no picnic to be Chinese. Try living in your bedroom closet forever and working 16 hours a day 6 days a week. That is reality for those lucky enough to have a job. Your not a human being if your living in most places in China, your a machine, and if you break, you get tossed out to live in the urban underdeveloped noman's land while some kid replaces you for $1.20 an hour.

Just becuase some things in life suck and are harsh doesn't mean we all have to sugar coat everything like this planet is one big Utopia. People like you obviously have it made as you can't relate to those in the world that don't. I've seen kids swim in rivers full of human shit to find pennies guys like me threw in, just so we could watch them swim in shit. I'm not proud of it, I was a punk kid myself, but you know what...it was funny then, it breaks my heart now, but those things are reality. Get out of your castle every now and then.

Thats becuase you havent shown us any.
search it :P
i'm to lazy to show you facts
well actually i have facts
but you cant see them
the backstreets of newyork are far worse than the 'back-streets' of lets say... the netherlands
actually the 'backstreets' of the netherlands are rich if you compare them to the backstreets of new york

Let's look at a few issues:



2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks

...overall socialist...at least we have the option to chose socialist, the only parties you can chose from is almost fascist and completely fascist. Within a 100 years you'll probably invade europe for being a "commie-pinko".

Anyhow, I wouldn't brag about your american's army superiority. We all know that most of the killed american soldiers (during both Iraqi invasions, not afterwards) died due to friendly fire. We don't have to be afraid of being invaded, I don't know where you got that idea? I mean, do you seriously think we still live in medieval times? The only western country going to war is the US (and Israel, but whats the difference?)

European countries know by experience that war is the absolute last sollution for a problem and our diplomatic capabilities must be far superior to the americans otherwise your country wouldn't have to go to war every decade.

Anyhow, our military means to help countries in need is probably superior to the americans, and I'm glad it is that way. And one last thing. Within a 100 years China will be the superpower and America will probably be dealing with a harsh social decline unless you start making some social improvement. Poverty and unemployment are a problem as we speak, if the population doubles and economy is dominated by China, well calculate it yourself. Maybe you should consider a precautional nuke dropping on Hong Kong and Changhai, to remain a "superpower". You did wage war as a precaution upon the Iraqis (ooh what if they would become strong enough in about 15 years to make WMD again and drop 'em on our country! think of the children! Nuke 'em (with depleted uranium)). (sarcasm)

Listen, before you go all glossy eyed on me and start crying or something...

Do you live in a cave? When you have no idea what your talking about, why is the comeback...how do you know, you've never been there. Do you have any clue how it is to live in China? I have worked in China on several occasions in both the Aerospace Industry and the Glass Industry. I did actually do something after the military. Let me tell you, it is no picnic to be Chinese. Try living in your bedroom closet forever and working 16 hours a day 6 days a week. That is reality for those lucky enough to have a job. Your not a human being if your living in most places in China, your a machine, and if you break, you get tossed out to live in the urban underdeveloped noman's land while some kid replaces you for $1.20 an hour.

Just becuase some things in life suck and are harsh doesn't mean we all have to sugar coat everything like this planet is one big Utopia. People like you obviously have it made as you can't relate to those in the world that don't. I've seen kids swim in rivers full of human shit to find pennies guys like me threw in, just so we could watch them swim in shit. I'm not proud of it, I was a punk kid myself, but you know what...it was funny then, it breaks my heart now, but those things are reality. Get out of your castle every now and then.

If you think I live in a castle, your soley mistaken.
I come from pretty poor class.
Ive seen my share of hungry days, trust me.
You probably havent experienced anything like that for yourself, have you?
No, you just continue to laugh at the other people, who do.
Later, when your a bit more sensible, you begin to actually feel regret for the shitty things youve done....

Too late.

Thing is...people like you throw pennies in shit filled canals to let the kids dive for them.

People like me give the kid a sandwich, so he doesnt have to.

Better living conditions? Your socialist. That means your all sitting on your fat asses while your debt goes through the roof. Your grandchildren are going to hate you for working the least amount possible and dumping your old fat ass on them to take care of when your old. Enjoy your old age, as your all going to be living in group homes we call Homeless shelters.


dont even bother arguing. the ones that state things like he does have no idea.

they havent seen enough to understand the differences in living standards.

They havent seen a "middle class" guy in rome buying 3 tomatoes while a dirtbag here buys a dozen

or the fact that food in the US costs nothing.

Or that gas costs nothin

or that we live in proper houses while they cram themselves into cubicles and call it living.

They call us stupid and selfish, but a person on welfare in the US gets to eat steak whenever they please.

A european has to save up just to buy groceries.

They just dont get it.

I was in the UK a month ago, I paid 3.50 pounds for a chocolate crepe. A crepe that would have cost me $1.50 in the US

They live with $5 a gallon gas

lol, and they think their govts are doing right by them.

We live in a country where food, fuel, everything is an afterthought. They live in a place where they have to scrounge what we throw away, and they want to critisize us for it.

let them.


At least they will feel better about themselves

search it :P
i'm to lazy to show you facts
well actually i have facts
but you cant see them
the backstreets of newyork are far worse than the 'back-streets' of lets say... the netherlands
actually the 'backstreets' of the netherlands are rich if you compare them to the backstreets of new york

A huge house in the Netherlands (not many huge houses as a whole) cost very little compared to let's say a tiny New York apartment, that will easily run you $2,000 a month.

I don't think rich is the word you meant to use...the typical American could buy anything in your country for pennies compared to what they have to pay here. I know what you meant, and I'm more inclined to agree with you, but you said it in a very wrong way lol.

Problem with you guys is your population is going in reverse...keep going that way and your population will be dominated by Arabs before too long lol

search it :P
i'm to lazy to show you facts
well actually i have facts
but you cant see them
the backstreets of newyork are far worse than the 'back-streets' of lets say... the netherlands
actually the 'backstreets' of the netherlands are rich if you compare them to the backstreets of new york


Thats becuase you dont have any cities the size of NY.
When you do, you always get slums, and ghettos.

actually the UK is one of the most expensive europian nations :D
and the UK is a great place o live in, you're right that the UK is expensive (been there a lot)
but i liked it

Thats becuase you dont have any cities the size of NY.
When you do, you always get slums, and ghettos.

paris has 4 million citizens probably more
thats not close to new york
but if you compare it to other cities in the US of that size than you see getto's...
and i dont see REALLY poor people in paris though...

A huge house in the Netherlands (not many huge houses as a whole) cost very little compared to let's say a tiny New York apartment, that will easily run you $2,000 a month.

I don't think rich is the word you meant to use...the typical American could buy anything in your country for pennies compared to what they have to pay here. I know what you meant, and I'm more inclined to agree with you, but you said it in a very wrong way lol.

Problem with you guys is your population is going in reverse...keep going that way and your population will be dominated by Arabs before too long lol
your kinda right about the last thing :P
lol, lots of arabs in europe
rich might not be the word
i'll change it to living conditions

...overall socialist...at least we have the option to chose socialist, the only parties you can chose from is almost fascist and completely fascist. Within a 100 years you'll probably invade europe for being a "commie-pinko".

Anyhow, I wouldn't brag about your american's army superiority. We all know that most of the killed american soldiers (during both Iraqi invasions, not afterwards) died due to friendly fire. We don't have to be afraid of being invaded, I don't know where you got that idea? I mean, do you seriously think we still live in medieval times? The only western country going to war is the US (and Israel, but whats the difference?)

European countries know by experience that war is the absolute last sollution for a problem and our diplomatic capabilities must be far superior to the americans otherwise your country wouldn't have to go to war every decade.

Anyhow, our military means to help countries in need is probably superior to the americans, and I'm glad it is that way. And one last thing. Within a 100 years China will be the superpower and America will probably be dealing with a harsh social decline unless you start making some social improvement. Poverty and unemployment are a problem as we speak, if the population doubles and economy is dominated by China, well calculate it yourself. Maybe you should consider a precautional nuke dropping on Hong Kong and Changhai, to remain a "superpower". You did wage war as a precaution upon the Iraqis (ooh what if they would become strong enough in about 15 years to make WMD again and drop 'em on our country! think of the children! Nuke 'em (with depleted uranium)). (sarcasm)


I didn't even bother to finish reading your post as your living in fantasy land as well. Why don't you people educate yourself instead of just throwing around vague notions? Go get a book, a magazine and learn this stuff, you could really be great at it if you used more facts and not just youthful angst.

First, America is not fascist. I know that sounds all kewl to say, but get real. Everything I have said is atleast valid as an argument. Calling us fascist is like me calling you Mickey Mouse, it is just wasted verbage.

Second, China has the same problem as Europe, but worse in scale. They are losing population faster than all of Europe. They are not growing. All of you think of things as growing exponentially, and it is just not the case. The United States is one of the fastest growing countries in the world, and since we are already so large that amounts to huge numbers of people every decade...million upon millions. We will literally more than double in less than 100 years at current trends.

That doesn't mention all of our hemisphere...both American continents are where the human growth is on the entire globe.

That is only one apsect though, you have to also consider the economic factors. Indonesia is huge as far as population, but economically it is a joke. Rather like comparing your local supermarket to Chase Manhatten Bank. No matter how many people they get, there is just no way to breach the size of the financial institutions in any reasonable timeframe...can't even guess a number of years it would be possible.

Lastly, I never said America was better, or that we would invade anyone. Far from it. Who has America invaded? We are not Imperialists!!!

America liberated Germany from the Germans twice (as a group with you guys), we liberated France twice, Iraq from Saddam, Kuwait from Saddam, Panama from Noriega, Grenada from Columbia, Lebanon from (can't recall on that one lol) and so many others...who have we occupied? Who have we held power over? Hawaii voted to join the union, Puerto Rico is split, half want to join, half don't, they still have all the benefits. Why do people act like the US is comming to take over?

I didn't even bother to finish reading your post as your living in fantasy land as well. Why don't you people educate yourself instead of just throwing around vague notions? Go get a book, a magazine and learn this stuff, you could really be great at it if you used more facts and not just youthful angst.

First, America is not fascist. I know that sounds all kewl to say, but get real. Everything I have said is atleast valid as an argument. Calling us fascist is like me calling you Mickey Mouse, it is just wasted verbage.

Second, China has the same problem as Europe, but worse in scale. They are losing population faster than all of Europe. They are not growing. All of you think of things as growing exponentially, and it is just not the case. The United States is one of the fastest growing countries in the world, and since we are already so large that amounts to huge numbers of people every decade...million upon millions. We will literally more than double in less than 100 years at current trends.

That doesn't mention all of our hemisphere...both American continents are where the human growth is on the entire globe.

That is only one apsect though, you have to also consider the economic factors. Indonesia is huge as far as population, but economically it is a joke. Rather like comparing your local supermarket to Chase Manhatten Bank. No matter how many people they get, there is just no way to breach the size of the financial institutions in any reasonable timeframe...can't even guess a number of years it would be possible.

Lastly, I never said America was better, or that we would invade anyone. Far from it. Who has America invaded? We are not Imperialists!!!

America liberated Germany from the Germans twice (as a group with you guys), we liberated France twice, Iraq from Saddam, Kuwait from Saddam, Panama from Noriega, Grenada from Columbia, Lebanon from (can't recall on that one lol) and so many others...who have we occupied? Who have we held power over? Hawaii voted to join the union, Puerto Rico is split, half want to join, half don't, they still have all the benefits. Why do people act like the US is comming to take over?

vietnam occupied...
lots more...

the soviet union liberated germany
the soviet union fucked himselve up...

in china its a law that you cant have more than 1 child thats why the population decreases beceause the nation is overpopulated
in the US people will soon be job-less beceause of over-population

you are imperialists...
wanting to create influance all over the world

As there has be recent discussions of a United States of Europe (and Tony Blair wanting the crown) do you think it will work? Do you think that all the countries will surrender to a singular identity as they are to the Euro?
sure it would, but not under Blair. hes an american puppett after all.
Schröder or Chirac would be problematic too i think. id vote for one of the smaller countrys presidents. belgium would be the best choice i think. theyre not pro-america, and theyre small enough that no one would feel threatened. (imperialism)

Despite the arguing about the yanks think they're God's gift to the World and have rather a strange conception of tehir place in history Europe won't become a single country mainly because its population don't trust it.

In Britain the vast majority of people consider themselves British and not European. Most would have us pull out of the EU.

Britain has been lied to over Europe too many times for us to teust either euro MPs or our won. The Common Market, whihc is the only thing we actually voted for, was a loose trading block which has now gradually turned into the blueprint for a country.

Given a free, democratic vote Britain wil never ratify the constitution.

Language is a problem although English is widely adopted, except by the French. I've lived in Sweden and Denmark and even in small shops they speak English.

The EU is corrupt and will never gain popular aclaim.

[QUOTE=Perrien]Let's look at a few issues:

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.

I don't think that Europe is very interested in America, as for demographics yes we will see a decline in the birthrate in most of Europe but in the long term the migration of from the East is an will boost our workforce and our skills.

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

Yes we are more socalist in the EU however collectively we would be a supreme economic force and there is a lot change to come if we do become a collective. I note that know that we work a 1/3 less hours and well, look at our standard of living FIRST WORLD on less hours. What does that tell you?


3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

Language Barriers - we do have language barriers and in the long term this will hold us back. I do not think French or German will lead, as so much of all European life is conducted in English, we deal with the European Union and I think we could cooperate with this.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

I did not mention Superpowers, apart from Bush who is a war monger and a right wing pleaser, most of the world is moving away from military capabilities. It is simply a waste of money. It just shows how insecure the US is, nearly every reference in these thread relate to the take out of the rest of the world *sigh*

I

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.Europe has twice the population of the US. The US population can't double. Look at the problems there are in Las Vegas with water.

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.There is more productivity in the EU. On average, a EU worker does produce 1.5 time the output of a US worker.
There is more democracy in the EU than in the US BTW and socialism is not in conflict with democracy.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.
This is a non-issue. It works in Belgium, in Switzerland and Luxemburg, the financially strongest countries on earth.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.It is the other way around. It will create jobs in the EU because the Us jobs in the EU will be taken over by EU citizens.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!
It's all about economy of scale.

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.
The EU has the greatest GDP.

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.
Still, the EU is anywhere in the world. In Africa, in Asia, in Oceania and in America.

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.
Those weapons are useless in today's world. We have better intelligence services and it is all about it.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...
We have no need to fight, becaues we are less dependant on outside resources.

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.
It will take some time for integrating indeed. The UK is a slowing factor currently.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks
You are wrong everywhere.

Europe is already heading into this direction. None of the European countries has an economy that can compete with the United States, Japan, and eventually China, on an individual basis. The European Union is the first step towards the creation of a European superstate.

I predict that the United States, Canada, and possibly Mexico will eveventually merge to counter this development, or maybe even a pan-American conglomerate of countries from both continents. *shrugs*

vietnam occupied...
lots more...

the soviet union liberated germany
the soviet union fucked himselve up...

in china its a law that you cant have more than 1 child thats why the population decreases beceause the nation is overpopulated
in the US people will soon be job-less beceause of over-population

you are imperialists...
wanting to create influance all over the world

Can you say la la land?

Is Vietnam occupied? We went to liberate them and lost the damn thing, we left once we realized there would be no liberating. Since then they went and killed over 1 million south vietnamese and everyone who could paddle a pop sickel (sic) stick has tried to flee the shithole ever since. I know plenty of Vietnamese and have a few in my family (weird), and they had a decent country that communism just obliterated. It was bad for everyone, I can't defend this argument, but some facts are worth noting.

The Soviet Union liberated Germany huh...your in deep doo doo pal. We had to fly missions into Berlin just to keep everyone from starving while it was under Soviet occupation. Who is still there defending the bastards? WE ARE...Which way were people escaping under the Berlin wall? I didn't recall hearing about everyone wanting to flee to East Germany. Who built the damn wall to keep people in and not let them out? Your entire argument shows what an idiot you are. This type of argument proves I have wasted my time trying to converse with you. Your no smarter than a kid with no education living in some shithole being indoctrinated to become a suicide bomber. Just sad and pathetic...

So China has laws barring birth of children, that doesn't change the fact that they are decreasing in number does it. I think you just made my point for me, but being the little man that you are, rather than simpoly agree were we find agreement, you have to belittle the point with a nuance argument just to belay the point being made. How old are you? I doubt an adult right?

Everyone wants to create influence all over the world. I didn't see Chirac trying to avoid making illegal oil deals with Saddam in violation of the UN...oh, but let me guess, you htink his intentions were all pure and saintly right? Now that I think of it, weren't the French in Vietnam for several decades fighting prior to the US...oh yeah....If you compare the number of wars the US has had compared to European nations you still have us beat by atleast 50, that's just in modern times

Despite the arguing about the yanks think they're God's gift to the World and have rather a strange conception of tehir place in history Europe won't become a single country mainly because its population don't trust it.

In Britain the vast majority of people consider themselves British and not European. Most would have us pull out of the EU.

Britain has been lied to over Europe too many times for us to teust either euro MPs or our won. The Common Market, whihc is the only thing we actually voted for, was a loose trading block which has now gradually turned into the blueprint for a country.

Given a free, democratic vote Britain wil never ratify the constitution.

Language is a problem although English is widely adopted, except by the French. I've lived in Sweden and Denmark and even in small shops they speak English.

The EU is corrupt and will never gain popular aclaim.


English is adopted by modern Europe, you guys always fail to think of all of the members. They are not exactly fluent in English in over half the member nations since you brought in the eastern block.

Can you say la la land?

Is Vietnam occupied? We went to liberate them and lost the damn thing, we left once we realized there would be no liberating. Since then they went and killed over 1 million south vietnamese and everyone who could paddle a pop sickel (sic) stick has tried to flee the shithole ever since. I know plenty of Vietnamese and have a few in my family (weird), and they had a decent country that communism just obliterated. It was bad for everyone, I can't defend this argument, but some facts are worth noting.

The Soviet Union liberated Germany huh...your in deep doo doo pal. We had to fly missions into Berlin just to keep everyone from starving while it was under Soviet occupation. Who is still there defending the bastards? WE ARE...Which way were people escaping under the Berlin wall? I didn't recall hearing about everyone wanting to flee to East Germany. Who built the damn wall to keep people in and not let them out? Your entire argument shows what an idiot you are. This type of argument proves I have wasted my time trying to converse with you. Your no smarter than a kid with no education living in some shithole being indoctrinated to become a suicide bomber. Just sad and pathetic...

So China has laws barring birth of children, that doesn't change the fact that they are decreasing in number does it. I think you just made my point for me, but being the little man that you are, rather than simpoly agree were we find agreement, you have to belittle the point with a nuance argument just to belay the point being made. How old are you? I doubt an adult right?

Everyone wants to create influence all over the world. I didn't see Chirac trying to avoid making illegal oil deals with Saddam in violation of the UN...oh, but let me guess, you htink his intentions were all pure and saintly right? Now that I think of it, weren't the French in Vietnam for several decades fighting prior to the US...oh yeah....If you compare the number of wars the US has had compared to European nations you still have us beat by atleast 50, that's just in modern times


without the soviet union the entire world would be in the hands of nazi's

yes, but its a good thing that they're number decreases
in africa it increases the most and look how far africa is...

yes, but this influance is called imperialism...

I didn't ever say we were interested in taking over the rest of the world. But you must admit that if you do end up doing well, whoever is not doing so well and can take what you have...WILL!!!

When will you people ever learn that if you keep your doors open at night, it is a matter of time before someone walks in and kills you.

Not everyone is bad, the vast majority are good, but I can name a few hundred bad people in our history that have managed to kill a few billion people as a group. Let's just name a few for an example.

Ghengis Khan
Mohammad
Hitler
Hirohito
Mau Tse Tung

The list goes on and on...

Do you not think that there are hundreds more of these people that will appear in our futures? OF COURSE THEY WILL.

Meglomania is common, and people afflicted with it have a HUGE need to get into power. I think 90% of all world leaders have some form of meglomania, but they keep it in check...a small percentage can't, and they will destroy you as natural as you wake up in the morning.

To not accept that is to accept that your future is very limited and doomed to repeat being a victim in the future

paris has 4 million citizens probably more
thats not close to new york
but if you compare it to other cities in the US of that size than you see getto's...
and i dont see REALLY poor people in paris though...
Actually, Paris has 12 million people. It's in fact bigger than NY.

Likewise, apply what you've said to the US. And let's add a few more names to your list of bad people... Ronald Reagan, Henry Kissinger... What good did devastating Cambodia do? Or are you willing to dismiss that for "liberating" them from "the threat of communism"?

American supremacism is sickening

I was in the UK a month ago, I paid 3.50 pounds for a chocolate crepe. A crepe that would have cost me $1.50 in the US

They live with $5 a gallon gas

lol, and they think their govts are doing right by them.

We live in a country where food, fuel, everything is an afterthought. They live in a place where they have to scrounge what we throw away, and they want to critisize us for it.


We in the UK can afford these prices, could you? Oh no obviously not or you wouldn't be complaining!
Our government inflates the price of "gas" because it is morally right to do it. The pollution from cars has to be controlled or we will not have a world in the future. This needs to be backed by the US or the planet is doomed!

Anyhow, don't bring the UK into any European argument - we are not European, we are British and always will be!

God Save The Queen!

lol :headbang:
again the americans here proove how idiotic, arrogant and ignorant a person can be.
alone that west germans and east germans hate each other! we mock the east all the time, but hate?!? you know NOTHING about europe. this is the proove.

really, this discussion is ruined by stupid americans. its just not worth the time to say anything more.

Actually, Paris has 12 million people. It's in fact bigger than NY.
no NY has 16 million
but i said probably more ;)

Europe is already heading into this direction. None of the European countries has an economy that can compete with the United States, Japan, and eventually China, on an individual basis. The European Union is the first step towards the creation of a European superstate.

I predict that the United States, Canada, and possibly Mexico will eveventually merge to counter this development, or maybe even a pan-American conglomerate of countries from both continents. *shrugs*

Shhhhhhhhhh....

Don't tell them our secret weapon lol.

If it ever came to that, we have millions upon millions upon millions of people within our hemisphere to compete economically lol.

Also to the other guy who said the EU was already larger in GDP and productivity and so forth...your not worth arguing with, you make up your reality, but none of what you said is based on any facts.

Look at all of your Eastern block countries, they are all decades behind and need social welfare programs for decades just to catch up. What do you think, you can just ignore the fact that Eastern Germany has twice the unemployment of Western Germany, so you force westerners to pay twice as much in taxes to prop up easterners.

You have tons of issues that are going to take decades to work out. I'm just pointing out that I support the unification, and I hope it leads to more world peace, but you guys need to stop acting like your going to be the next super power and run the world, your not in my lifetime.

Sit back, drink some coffee, the US is very responsible and has it covered. You need to work on your little neck of the woods and we will watch the hen house...

I didn't ever say we were interested in taking over the rest of the world. But you must admit that if you do end up doing well, whoever is not doing so well and can take what you have...WILL!!!

When will you people ever learn that if you keep your doors open at night, it is a matter of time before someone walks in and kills you.

Not everyone is bad, the vast majority are good, but I can name a few hundred bad people in our history that have managed to kill a few billion people as a group. Let's just name a few for an example.

Ghengis Khan
Mohammad
Hitler
Hirohito
Mau Tse Tung

The list goes on and on...

Do you not think that there are hundreds more of these people that will appear in our futures? OF COURSE THEY WILL.

Meglomania is common, and people afflicted with it have a HUGE need to get into power. I think 90% of all world leaders have some form of meglomania, but they keep it in check...a small percentage can't, and they will destroy you as natural as you wake up in the morning.

To not accept that is to accept that your future is very limited and doomed to repeat being a victim in the futureYou're too affected by the war on terror propaganda.

Likewise, apply what you've said to the US. And let's add a few more names to your list of bad people... Ronald Reagan, Henry Kissinger... What good did devastating Cambodia do? Or are you willing to dismiss that for "liberating" them from "the threat of communism"?

American supremacism is sickening

Before you go and get all sick...Vietnam devastated Cambodia when you Frenchies left...we were trying to prevent that from happening. You can thank John Kerry for bring it about sooner

You're too affected by the war on terror propaganda.

Ok, every one of those people are a figment of my imagination then? I think your to affected by this EU thing. All I can say is watch your back. I didn't see you guys doing much about Bosnia...oh yeah...another country we had to fix, right in your backyard that you watched turn into a pile of shit...good job...

Wow, I loved your use of diplomacy in that one

Before you go and get all sick...Vietnam devastated Cambodia when you Frenchies left...we were trying to prevent that from happening. You can thank John Kerry for bring it about sooner
Good job.

Ok, every one of those people are a figment of my imagination then? I think your to affected by this EU thing. All I can say is watch your back. I didn't see you guys doing much about Bosnia...oh yeah...another country we had to fix, right in your backyard that you watched turn into a pile of shit...good job...

Wow, I loved your use of diplomacy in that oneRwanda? Ivory Coast?

The city of Paris only has 2,200,000 people and is not even in this list of worlds most populated cities http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/bigcities.htm

Well whatever. You know nothing about the world.
The world is the US + some other little oil rich countries.

The city of Paris only has 2,200,000 people and is not even in this list of worlds most populated cities http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/bigcities.htm
http://www.citymayors.com/features/urban_areas1.html
9 million here.

Those numbers don't mean shit.

europe has more citizens than the US :P
lol

Europe 727
and in all of america 850
lying bastards
they said they had more citizens than europe

http://www.citymayors.com/features/urban_areas1.html
9 million here.

Those numbers don't mean shit.

it might be bigger but that doesn't mean it has more citizens

The city of Paris only has 2,200,000 people and is not even in this list of worlds most populated cities http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/bigcities.htm

I saw that when he posted, but I figured what was the point of ripping on sacred Paris lol.

Paris is smaller than Denver...actually less than half the size I believe lol

In America we would refer to Paris as a little town, or a small city at best lol.

I think every state in America has atleast 2 cities larger than Paris...Maybe not Iowa and Hawaii lol

europe has more citizens than the US :P
lol

Europe 727
and in all of america 850
lying bastards
they said they had more citizens than europe
US = 280 million people
EU = 450 million people.

Again, those numbers don't mean shit anyway.

I saw that when he posted, but I figured what was the point of ripping on sacred Paris lol.

Paris is smaller than Denver...actually less than half the size I believe lol

In America we would refer to Paris as a little town, or a small city at best lol.

I think every state in America has atleast 2 cities larger than Paris...Maybe not Iowa and Hawaii lol
It's probably right. The US has many huge cities.
Paris is maybe the biggest city in Europe. Our towns are usually smaller.

US = 280 million people
EU = 450 million people.

Again, those numbers don't mean shit anyway.

Well, they mean alot when you make claims that your citizns are 1.5 times more productive, yet your combined GDP is less than half of ours...that means your wrong...

Also, US projected population by 2050 is 570 million, EU is declining from what it is currrently...

Not to mention Mexico will be a state by then and we will be over 1 billion population LOL

Well, they mean alot when you make claims that your citizns are 1.5 times more productive, yet your combined GDP is less than half of ours...that means your wrong...

Also, US projected population by 2050 is 570 million, EU is declining from what it is currrently...

Not to mention Mexico will be a state by then and we will be over 1 billion population LOL
The EU GDP is bigger than the US one.

Actually the EU is more densely populated.
BTW, I don't want to be offensive but you look stupid.

What site are you looking at? I want to link to it...

I know they have more population today, I'm saying in the future.

What is the total GDP? It can't be over 25 trillion

What site are you looking at? I want to link to it...

I know they have more population today, I'm saying in the future.

What is the total GDP? It can't be over 25 trillionIt is something like €16 trillion, but this number doesn't mean shit.
I have $11 trillion for the US.

Better living conditions? Your socialist. That means your all sitting on your fat asses while your debt goes through the roof. Your grandchildren are going to hate you for working the least amount possible and dumping your old fat ass on them to take care of when your old. Enjoy your old age, as your all going to be living in group homes we call Homeless shelters.
As far as I know it's Americans who live in debt. Both country and people.

It is something like €16 trillion, but this number doesn't mean shit.
I have $11 trillion for the US.

I have to admit I haven't looked at the effects the last 11 countries joining the EU has had. I'm basing my argument on information known in my head prior to that. I know that is not a good position to argue from, but all 11 of them were Eastern Block, thus other than population, most had a negative overall effect. But it was a sweet deal for the 11 lol.

Also, I support the EU, I'm just not real happy that they bitch about the US, while we pay the bills of poor nations all over the globe. How much do they give to Africa for Aids? I'll bet it is less than 25% of what we pay. But they constantly say we do not pay enough.

What site are you looking at? I want to link to it...

I know they have more population today, I'm saying in the future.

What is the total GDP? It can't be over 25 trillion
Actually if you like numbers, check out the import/export balance.
Again, it doesn't mean shit, but it does show you some weakness in US numbers.
But it looks like you are a merchantilist, so you may like it.

I have to admit I haven't looked at the effects the last 11 countries joining the EU has had. I'm basing my argument on information known in my head prior to that. I know that is not a good position to argue from, but all 11 of them were Eastern Block, thus other than population, most had a negative overall effect. But it was a sweet deal for the 11 lol.

Also, I support the EU, I'm just not real happy that they bitch about the US, while we pay the bills of poor nations all over the globe. How much do they give to Africa for Aids? I'll bet it is less than 25% of what we pay. But they constantly say we do not pay enough.Actually, the EU is the biggest contributor in Africa and the biggest provider of foreign aid overall in the world.

BTW it is a sweet deal for everybody. The world is not only about stupid numbers.

Let's look at a few issues:

Yes, lets

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.

What? In what way is this an issue? Why would we try and surpass you when we are already better? How does the declining population have any affect on the ability of a European state to stand or fall?

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becoming more so. In order to entice members to join they are selling their souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canada has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

Yes, you miss a far more fundamental point. We aren't socialists because we want to improve our economy, we are socialists because we want to improve our welfare. In Europe the economy works for the people, the people don't work for the economy. That Europeans work a third less than Americans (even if that is true, which I don't believe it is) demonstrates only that Europeans enjoy their lives, instead of constantly striving for more money. Europeans appreciate the finer things in life, like a family, friends walking in nice clean parks breathing nice clean air. Doing things other than work. We are not slaves to our jobs, or to our economy. The Canadians too appear to appreciate it; you wouldn't understand as you are an American, and so believe the way to judge a country is by its economy, not by its welfare. We in Europe have a different stance, so your economic argument, even if true, is of no relevance here.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

I'll address your last point first. The official language of China is read and written by almost the entire literate population. I don't believe there is a problem. As for the dialects of spoken Chinese, Mandarin is the official language and so there is no need for an official language to be selected and learnt as it is already in place. This is nothing like the situation in Europe.

In Europe, the "official" language is French, the constitution and laws being written in this language. The most widely spoken language is English, followed by German I believe. Perhaps one day the official languages will be reduced to these three, but I don't see why we should bother. You are making up a problem when in reality there is none, many countries are very successful despite accommodating a number of languages, and by preserving the languages we preserve the cultures of Europe.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking each other or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

The reason Europe does not descend into a state of war, nor get invaded is called diplomacy. Europe's military strength is more than enough to defend itself against all but China and the USA. Diplomacy prevents us being invaded, because we don't go around the world pissing everyone else off. If no one wants to invade us and we don't want to invade anyone else, then why would we need a bigger army? Eventually America's military will bankrupt her, take a look at your national debt next time you get a chance, America is still paying for the cold war!

On the other hand I accept your point about jobs, the job losses incurred by closing US bases in Europe would cause a lot of damage. Well done, you have made one good point so far.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!

The power of Europe does not lie in economics or in bombs. The power of Europe is a much deeper thing, and has been prevented from rising in the past by the divisions between countries. As these divisions fall away, the power that was dissipated by internal conflict will begin to work externally.

Additionally, the economy and military of Europe will grow as a result of a closer union, though exactly how 'powerful' (in the American sense) it will get I can not tell.

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.

That is just offensive. You have clearly never been to China, have you ever even been outside of America?

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.

What?

Firstly, who would we want to fight, we don't go picking random fights, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Secondly, in Iraq it was the Royal Navy (which will eventually be part of the European Navy) who had to assist the US Marines in their initial assault of the beaches, as the US had problems not flying their helicopters into each other! Europe has no problems with the deployment of our forces, where did this come from?

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.

Again, what? The Euro fighter may not be great, but who will we be attacking that can damage it? It may not be the best of the best of the best of the best, but it outclasses ALMOST every other fighter in the world. If it does the job, why spend trillions developing a new one? The US just does this to subsidise its obese arms industry, there is no need for all these exciting new planes you talk about, you are just wasting taxpayers money. In Europe we would rather use that money to provide education, healthcare or welfare.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...

England? Said who? Scotland has much higher recruitment than England, and even then they don't want to fight in Iraq, against people who are no threat to us in a war that can't be won. Why? Because "patriotism" is in fact petty nationalism. Europeans will fight when they are called to, when there is a threat to our way of life. That threat is not present, so there is no need to fight. Duh.

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over Eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

What? Who told you this? I know many Germans, and none that I know have a problem with 'East Germans'. No one calls themselves 'West German'. The problems, if any, are small and numerous. There is no affirmative action plan for Eastern Europe. More money will be spent in Eastern Europe until its standard of living reaches the EU average, the countries least socialist are the ones gaining most from aid, so aren't going to complain.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks

Better be happy? Shut up you twat, you obviously know nothing of Europe or its people, update your databanks by dragging yourself away from your computer, getting off your lazy fat arse, getting a passport and going to see the world as it really is, not how your TV channels project it. While you are travelling it is best that you don't speak, as you are likely to be beaten if you express your ignorant and ill founded opinions anywhere outside the USA.
Cockass.

Qoute
Perrin said
Who has America invaded? We are not Imperialists!!!
Afganistan , Iraq
Was there an offical war decleration? Or was it like the bombin of pearl harbour?
Mr Bush wanted to dispose of Iraq's WMD. Commendable, but what about America's WMD? It's one rule for them and another for everyone else.
Also I see frighting parralels between the American invasion of Afganistan and the Austro-Hungarin invasion of Serbia.

dont even bother arguing. the ones that state things like he does have no idea.

they havent seen enough to understand the differences in living standards.

They havent seen a "middle class" guy in rome buying 3 tomatoes while a dirtbag here buys a dozen

or the fact that food in the US costs nothing.

Or that gas costs nothin

or that we live in proper houses while they cram themselves into cubicles and call it living.

They call us stupid and selfish, but a person on welfare in the US gets to eat steak whenever they please.

A european has to save up just to buy groceries.

They just dont get it.

I was in the UK a month ago, I paid 3.50 pounds for a chocolate crepe. A crepe that would have cost me $1.50 in the US

They live with $5 a gallon gas

lol, and they think their govts are doing right by them.

We live in a country where food, fuel, everything is an afterthought. They live in a place where they have to scrounge what we throw away, and they want to critisize us for it.

let them.


At least they will feel better about themselves

I can put my children in daycare for free. I can study free in university. If I get sick I don't have to pay almost nothing for the cure. When I become old I've paid enough taxes to get a proper retirement salary. I pay more for gas because I understand how terrible oil industry is for the nature. (We are dealing with the problem already). We pay more for the food so that the government doesn't have to pay so much for the farmers and so that the methods to produce food are better (thank god) than yours. And UK is maybe the most expensive country in the Europe. And of course it's expensive for you as your currency is getting cheaper and cheaper.

:headbang: You poor arrogant fools. Yes the Americans are generally ignorant to the rest of the World, yes Europeans have ridiculous Socialist governments, and both parties will differ on many issues.

However, you all have something in common. You now have in your countries large numbers of people who no longer hold allegiance to the nation.
They do not consider themselves to be American or French first, they consider themselves to be Moslems. They are not interested in the United States of America or Europe. They want a world united under Islam.

So throw aside your differences :fluffle: and be ready, for the next international conflict(if it has not already begun), which will be fought for religion, not national pride.

Mates! US or the EU, who gives a flying ****?! Aren't we in the age of Globalization? :fluffle: we're all world buddies. No need for a King, Queen, or whatever. Let's just kick back and wait for Yoda to come and advise us.

There is only one people on earth.
We are all citizens of the world.

[QUOTE=Dalradia]Yes, lets

Hahaha. I like the funny accent it is cute.

You make no counterpoints to my arguments, but you do have plenty of interesting opinions.

I'll just throw one idea at you to start...

BOSNIA!!!

Again, your welcome, we were very happy to go and save your ass, so you wouldn't have to fight on your own land in your own backyard. By the way, has the Haque ever done anything to that guy or is he living in a Riviera some where?

Also, you mention there is no strife with Germany, then you go on to support my view that the eastern nations need to catch up tyo the average. I can read, can you accept reality. This is a common daily debate in Germany. It doesn't even deserve argument.

Why do people always say stupid things like, you have probably never been there, and you probably never this or that. I had posted in this thread that I have been there plenty of times, and I am 100% positive I have travelled more than you will in your entire life unless you are some freak of nature.

I have traveled the globe to 23 countries, thus far. Although not one of them have been in Europe. My wife loves Europe, but I have just not had the luxory of going. I have gone mainly to Asia and the middle east.

I won't argue with the rest of your points as we have already discussed them in this thread, you should read up on it.

I saw that when he posted, but I figured what was the point of ripping on sacred Paris lol.

Paris is smaller than Denver...actually less than half the size I believe lol

In America we would refer to Paris as a little town, or a small city at best lol.

I think every state in America has atleast 2 cities larger than Paris...Maybe not Iowa and Hawaii lol
What is the point of big cities? Does it make a country better? Anyway London is huge, Moskva is Huge, St Petersburg is huge, Berlin is quite big..Istanbul is huge..

:headbang: You poor arrogant fools. Yes the Americans are generally ignorant to the rest of the World, yes Europeans have ridiculous Socialist governments, and both parties will differ on many issues.

However, you all have something in common. You now have in your countries large numbers of people who no longer hold allegiance to the nation.
They do not consider themselves to be American or French first, they consider themselves to be Moslems. They are not interested in the United States of America or Europe. They want a world united under Islam.

So throw aside your differences :fluffle: and be ready, for the next international conflict(if it has not already begun), which will be fought for religion, not national pride.

Very good post. Although your the fool, not me lol

I like that, I might have to use that to change my perspective on several issues. I'm not about holding my position once I see a better one, to the contrary, as soon as I see a way to improve my position and view (feel it is more right), I change right away. I think you have just taught me an important lesson on my nationalism and a better way to focus my patriotism. Thank you

Um... does anyone else find the first thing that pops into their heads upon hearing "United States of Europe" is that book, incompetence, by Rob Grant?

I mean, it is theeee funniest thing ever, but not a good thing to, y'know, base a world power on :P

Just to connect this with the actual thing being discussed, it also presents several major problems that could occur, number one being the fact that no-one could possibly agree on anything long anough to get anything done.

What is the point of big cities? Does it make a country better? Anyway London is huge, Moskva is Huge, St Petersburg is huge, Berlin is quite big..Istanbul is huge..

Will you morons quit taking things out of context god damn it!!!

If your going to make a point atleast make an effort to read the surrounding dialog. You make your argument look like a 2nd grader. HE BROUGHT IT UP, NOT ME!!!!

I specifically made a point of mentioning that I let it go and didn't reply, until someone else brought it up, and I interjected my comment then as we are having a dialog.

If you don't think it is a good point, then tell your French buddy to keep his damn mouth shut about it. If you bring up a point, I think I have a right to comment once two or more people are discussing it. Is that ok with you, or does socialism not work that way?

There have been many efforts to create a USE in the history of Europe and untill now, it has allways ended in war and separation (Napoleon, Ceasar, Hitler)!
If we can't even manage to hold on to 1 Rusia, 1 Yougoslavia, and have the hardest problems to keep Italy toghether (with the northern part wanting to separate from the poor south), then why on earth would we try to create 1 big Europe??
It is a madman's illusion "Europe as an entity". The only thing we have in common is our continent, that is it and nothing more...

Will you morons quit taking things out of context god damn it!!!

If your going to make a point atleast make an effort to read the surrounding dialog. You make your argument look like a 2nd grader. HE BROUGHT IT UP, NOT ME!!!!

I specifically made a point of mentioning that I let it go and didn't reply, until someone else brought it up, and I interjected my comment then as we are having a dialog.

If you don't think it is a good point, then tell your French buddy to keep his damn mouth shut about it. If you bring up a point, I think I have a right to comment once two or more people are discussing it. Is that ok with you, or does socialism not work that way?

Wooaaahhh, you really should try to cool down a little. I was just wondering, I did read all the posts. I couldn't understand it would make a huge difference who I quote. wow. I'm very truly sorry. :o

Is that ok with you, or does socialism not work that way?
And would you please finally stop talking about socialism as you obviously know nothing about it.

Wooaaahhh, you really should try to cool down a little. I was just wondering, I did read all the posts. I couldn't understand it would make a huge difference who I quote. wow. I'm very truly sorry. :o

Ok ok, I'm sorry as well, but your not the first person to do that to me in the last two hours lol. I swear I feel like I am on a treadmill and having to make the same argument for every person that enters the thread lol. I expect someone to read up on the thread, kind of catch up prior to blasting one point I might have made, as that point might relate to many other things having been said, know what I mean?

Whew, welcome, how the hell are ya?

LONG time no post.

I find the remarks made by Perren on page 1 completely ridiculous. The UK's airforce, infantry, secret service and navy outright annhilates anything the US can offer. For every 1000 american troops; send in 50 of ours and it could do the same job.

Furthermore there is almost no way that English wouldnt remain a primary or secondary language for most of europe.

There is so much more I could reply to; ignorance such as yours is just ripe for a roasting. I wont however. Why do you fear a united Europe so much anyway? What possibly harm could it do the US besides removing them of an ally that with any sane leader in charge; they wouldnt have anyway.

Whew, welcome, how the hell are ya?

And I'll cool down too...Feeling great, hope you do too..back to "normal conversation".

There is only one people on earth.
We are all citizens of the world.

Dream on, mate. We're all citizens of the perfect worl, it just hasn't arrived yet.

The basic fact of the matter is, people collectively have an overwhelming tendency to be stupid, petty and prejudiced.

Exceptions occur, but they are statistical freaks.

there is no way we are going to get our act together unless we are invaded by aliens and all have to band together against them.

In other words, we're screwed.

And would you please finally stop talking about socialism as you obviously know nothing about it.

Is it that obvious that I don't know anything about socialism?

Gee, I thought my country has been at odds with socialism for the past 50 years or so, maybe I have been mistaken my whole life.

Oh wait...we have been at odds with socialism my whole life and it is strangling the nation as we speak.

Europeans say that our military is cuasing our national debt, but conservative americans blame social programs for the debt. This is the center of American politics. Maybe you don't know anything about American politics.

I know all about socialism, I was raised my entire youth on welfare, as was everyone in my neighborhood. I know how it makes you a lemming and destroys your will to improve the human condition. It does allow you to kick back and take it easy, that is true, but someone is paying for it. and in America that doesn't work as well as in Europe.

We have this thing in America called "Kepping up with the Jones'."

In Europe your so sophisticated you don't have that problem.

LONG time no post.

I find the remarks made by Perren on page 1 completely ridiculous. The UK's airforce, infantry, secret service and navy outright annhilates anything the US can offer. For every 1000 american troops; send in 50 of ours and it could do the same job.

Furthermore there is almost no way that English wouldnt remain a primary or secondary language for most of europe.

There is so much more I could reply to; ignorance such as yours is just ripe for a roasting. I wont however. Why do you fear a united Europe so much anyway? What possibly harm could it do the US besides removing them of an ally that with any sane leader in charge; they wouldnt have anyway.

Do you people not understand that most of the EU countries don't speak english?

Why do you all act like France, Germany and the UK are the entire EU? Your doomed with your attitudes...

CBS anchor Dan Rather acknowledged for the first time yesterday that there are serious questions about the authenticity of the documents he used to question President Bush's National Guard record last week on "60 Minutes."

"If the documents are not what we were led to believe, I'd like to break that story," Rather said in an interview last night. "Any time I'm wrong, I want to be right out front and say, 'Folks, this is what went wrong and how it went wrong.' "

I just had to post that...I won't say I told you so...can we go back and highlight every dim thread and have them deleted for being invalid, just like every thread that supported Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman?

You guys, stop bitching about whose country is better. That isn't what this topic is about, last time I checked. The unrequited sarcasm is also unnecessary.

I'm sorry if I sound a tad presumptuous, it's just I came here expecting a rational discussion :P you can tell me to but out if you like.

Is it that obvious that I don't know anything about socialism?

Gee, I thought my country has been at odds with socialism for the past 50 years or so, maybe I have been mistaken my whole life.

Oh wait...we have been at odds with socialism my whole life and it is strangling the nation as we speak.

Europeans say that our military is cuasing our national debt, but conservative americans blame social programs for the debt. This is the center of American politics. Maybe you don't know anything about American politics.

I know all about socialism, I was raised my entire youth on welfare, as was everyone in my neighborhood. I know how it makes you a lemming and destroys your will to improve the human condition. It does allow you to kick back and take it easy, that is true, but someone is paying for it. and in America that doesn't work as well as in Europe.

We have this thing in America called "Kepping up with the Jones'."

In Europe your so sophisticated you don't have that problem.
I only said US has huge debts, I wasn't the one to blame military. Now your quoting the wrong person.
Are you a lemming who won't improve human condition? There are always people who'll kick back and take it easy no matter what, especially among higher classes simply because they can.

http://www.citymayors.com/features/urban_areas1.html
9 million here.

Those numbers don't mean shit.

Population in City centre=/=Population of entire city(including subruban areas)

Do you people not understand that most of the EU countries don't speak english?

Why do you all act like France, Germany and the UK are the entire EU? Your doomed with your attitudes...

When is the last time you've been in eastern Europe. Last time I travelled around there Polish and Latvians were the only ones who did not speak English (only few of them). But fortunately they speak German, so I never had any language barriers. Some elderly people can't apeak foreign languages but youth can. You know, it's possible to speak more than one language.

Well, nice to see i've been completely and utterly ignored :P sorry, I just thought after reading for a while that the best way to get someone to talk to me would be to insult them. It obviously doesn't work as well as i thought.

Sorry, resiquide, you're right.

The US of E will happen eventually, but not in my lifetime. And I haven't reached 20 yet.

Look, I mentioned language barrier was one of many problems. Damn, I must be all wrong, there are no problems and everything in Europe is just Utopia. Why are they taking so damn long to do anything? Once they are finished building this new Roman Empire can you have them all come over here and fix America? Especially send that Chirac fellow, I'd love to have tea with him.

Gee, you guys have shown me the light. If we do everything the European way we can get paid for sitting around and walking in the park. I love the concept, I'm just a tad bit leary as to who is going to pay my fucking taxes...

...... You've already mentioned that you've never been to Europe. So why constantly mock our ways of life at every opportunity? We don't get paid for bloody sitting around and walking in the park. We work like anyone else, but we aren't slaves to our jobs, and live our lives as we see fit.

Look, I mentioned language barrier was one of many problems. Damn, I must be all wrong, there are no problems and everything in Europe is just Utopia. Why are they taking so damn long to do anything? Once they are finished building this new Roman Empire can you have them all come over here and fix America? Especially send that Chirac fellow, I'd love to have tea with him.

Gee, you guys have shown me the light. If we do everything the European way we can get paid for sitting around and walking in the park. I love the concept, I'm just a tad bit leary as to who is going to pay my fucking taxes...

Hey great for you! You still have to pay a lot of taxes, but now you're having fun!

Yes of course there's problems with Europe. But the countries in Europe are so diffenrent that we should argue about one country at the time, not whole Europe.

Ok, some common problems across Europe: racism, unemployment, pollution (Kioto), some nutcases still building nuclear factories (Finland), farming, Russian (there's enough problems for the whole world), human rights in Eastern Europe.

The good news is, your combining your nations is probably going to force us to combine with other countries here at some point. Then we can stop bitching at you and focus on bitching at local countries for a few years LOL

Ah, I'm beginning to see where you're coming from now. You've spent time fighting for a country that might be on the way down, and you don't like that at all, so you take every opportunity to discredit what may well be one of the next generation superpowers. Well, good luck. You can always try.

look at sweden and norway
great living conditions (actually the best in the world)
but you americans probably dont believe the facts...


Huh? Ever heard of oil?

Oh and it wont last, they're oil is beginning to run out and they're saving $$ to fund the budget when the money stops rolling in. But saving dont last forever (surprise!) and it will degrade, that is unless the Govt finds some other industry to employ its people.




P.S. I hate Europe, and in fact i dont care for the US either, both too egotistic for my liking.

Yes, lets.


Hahaha. I like the funny accent it is cute.

You make no counterpoints to my arguments, but you do have plenty of interesting opinions.
I'm glad my accent amuses you. Yours makes you sound like a dumb hick. Note the use of "your" in my sentence, as opposed to "you're", you should try and not confuse these words, as they are different.

I discarded your "arguments" as they are not arguments; they do not require counterpoints except where I have made them.

I'll just throw one idea at you to start...

BOSNIA!!!

Again, your welcome, we were very happy to go and save your ass, so you wouldn't have to fight on your own land in your own backyard. By the way, has the Haque ever done anything to that guy or is he living in a Riviera some where?
Save our ass? When was our ass in danger? The UN did a good job halting ethnic cleansing, the USA played a role in that, for which I'm sure many people in Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia are grateful. I don't think it affects the rest of the EU though, as we weren't in danger. Milosevic is currently too ill to continue the trial; the guy is a very sick old man, both physically and mentally.

Also, you mention there is no strife with Germany, then you go on to support my view that the eastern nations need to catch up to the average. I can read, can you accept reality. This is a common daily debate in Germany. It doesn't even deserve argument.
You read correctly (though unfortunately don't write so well), yet failed to understand. East Germany is not so poor, though many of the countries who most recently joined the EU are. No one denies that the countries in the east will have to do some catching up. My point is we don't hate them because of that. I've never heard the matter debated in Germany, and I travel there regularly. I believe that the eastern countries need our help and support, why is that a problem? Yes it puts an economic strain on the more powerful economies in the west, but not so much strain as to cripple them.

Why do people always say stupid things like, you have probably never been there, and you probably never this or that. I had posted in this thread that I have been there plenty of times, and I am 100% positive I have travelled more than you will in your entire life unless you are some freak of nature.

I have traveled the globe to 23 countries, thus far. Although not one of them have been in Europe. My wife loves Europe, but I have just not had the luxory of going. I have gone mainly to Asia and the middle east.
I travel with my job, so I may in fact travel more than you. Certainly I have travelled more than you in Europe, and as that is the topic of conversation I am bemused as to why you are still posting here

I won't argue with the rest of your points as we have already discussed them in this thread, you should read up on it.
I don't believe my points have been addressed, as they have been approached by Americans who fail to understand the European perspective. As this is a debate on Europe, I would find a Europeans opinion infinitely more valuable, rather than the "blah blah blah...economy...blah...military...blah...god bless America...feeble European socialists...blah blah blah" that we have got so far.

Also, we are arguing about US all the time because most of people here are Americans. If there would be many Japanese people around we would be arguing a lot more about Asian economics and politics.

Huh? Ever heard of oil?

Oh and it wont last, they're oil is beginning to run out and they're saving $$ to fund the budget when the money stops rolling in. But saving dont last forever (surprise!) and it will degrade, that is unless the Govt finds some other industry to employ its people.




P.S. I hate Europe, and in fact i dont care for the US either, both too egotistic for my liking.
Sweden? Oil? Oh please give me a brake. Even if you hate Europe you just can't be that ignorant.

Let's look at a few issues:

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks

Our economy has passed America, so we are financial stronger than America. The language barrier is a problem yes, but english a common second language, so business to business problems is not an issue. It just means national values. The education systems is great, and finding a job without the requirement of high education and knowledge of english is hart at least for me. There should be no EU language, nations should keep their identity. You must remember, that us europeans have thousand years of history, while America is relatively new.

Also the education means efficiency, so although less people, they produce more. What does it matter if Denmark have a such small population, when one man works efficiently the same as 20 compared to others. (This of course is compared to less developed countries, and speciel fields, such as wind power which we are superior in)

The EU does not currently have an army. But you must remember, that all of the EU countries have. I hope that they will pull themselves together to form an EU army of specialized troops, and of course an EU police force. (The police has now the power to arrest across the border inside EU, and cooporate with the other police systems) Making a such army should not be a problem financially, and since we already have some of the best military special units, an EU made of such should show itself a power in itself. (And of course, it would mean that i wouldn't have to due my military time, hehe)

I dont know what you mean about USA keeping us from attacking eachother? Ehm, true maybe 50 years ago. But if you're so mad about spending resources, then remove the damn troops. Actually we dont want them, but USA wont pull them out. They're simply there for you to control us, which i find disgusting.

Anyhow, you talk about our military vehicles being outdated? Heh, look a bit on the Eurofighter Typhoon. It's made of all european parts, and from many different countries who each have specialized in thoose specific parts. That means a cheap airplane, with the best parts available. And it beats just about all of your planes, both in price and in combat efficiency. (No wonder you forbid Norway to invest in the project, and instead forced them to fund your less superior and more expensive joint strike plane project)

In my opinion i find Europe superior in trade than America, and although we will never be an army nation, we will still have a great word to say. China is probably going to be the next super power, to be honest.

Your american values and ideas, does not function in our society, and although we use money on welfare, we do not have any economic crisis as you. But let time show itself, i'm quite sure that i'll be a proud EU citizen in 50 years, and i sure hope socialism haven't lost it touch. (I voted for a social democrat to the EU parlament, and he got elected - yipee!)
The problem however, is that the more nations that joins, the smaller each vote gets. And most of the members is of liberalistic ideas :\ The danish welfare system is the best in my opinion - steal from the rich and give to the poor. The little man should not feel the weight of the big standing on top of him.

Most people seem to think here that no swedes speak english, that is wrong, EVERYONE does. I live in Sweden and I have never attended anything but public schools (the worst ones). What you americans don't get is that public schools in Europe (especially Scandinavia) are far better than the public schools in US, do you want me to say this in french as well?

europe has more citizens than the US :P
lol

Europe 727
and in all of america 850
lying bastards
they said they had more citizens than europe

How about some facts from the CIA World Factbook 2004:

Country Area (sq km) Population GDP Per Capita GDP
USA 9,631,418 293,027,571 10,980,000,000,000 37,471
Canada 9,984,670 32,507,874 957,700,000,000 29,461
Mexico 1,972,550 104,959,594 942,200,000,000 8,977
North America Total/Average 21,588,638 430,495,039 12,879,900,000,000 25,303

Austria 83,858 8,174,762 245,500,000,000 30,031
Belgium 30,158 10,348,276 298,200,000,000 28,816
Cyprus 9,251 775,927 8,900,000,000 11,470
Czech Republic 79,000 10,246,178 160,500,000,000 15,664
Denmark 43,094 5,413,392 167,700,000,000 30,979
Estonia 45,227 1,341,664 17,370,000,000 12,947
Finland 338,000 5,214,512 141,700,000,000 27,174
France 550,000 60,424,213 1,654,000,000,000 27,373
Germany 356,854 82,424,609 2,271,000,000,000 27,552
Greece 131,957 10,647,529 212,200,000,000 19,930
Hungary 93,036 10,032,375 139,700,000,000 13,925
Ireland 70,000 3,969,558 117,000,000,000 29,474
Italy 301,263 58,057,477 1,552,000,000,000 26,732
Latvia 64,600 2,306,306 23,770,000,000 10,307
Lithuania 65,301 3,607,899 40,170,000,000 11,134
Luxembourg 2,586 462,690 25,010,000,000 54,053
Malta 316 396,851 7,082,000,000 17,845
Poland 312,685 38,626,349 426,700,000,000 11,047
Portugal 92,072 10,524,145 182,300,000,000 17,322
Slovak Republic 49,035 5,423,567 72,290,000,000 13,329
Slovenia 20,000 2,011,473 36,890,000,000 18,340
Spain 504,782 40,280,780 885,500,000,000 21,983
Sweden 450,000 8,986,400 238,100,000,000 26,496
The Netherlands 41,864 16,318,199 461,400,000,000 28,275
United Kingdom 242,500 60,270,708 1,664,000,000,000 27,609
EU Total/Average 3,977,439 456,285,839 11,048,982,000,000 22,392


So the USA has three times the area but really has only 3/5 the population of the EU.

If they absorbed Canada and Mexico they would come closer in population, and have even more land to spread into.

However I rather suspect there is a reason that Canada has more space than the US but an eighth of the population!

As for economics, the combined GDP of the EU exceeds that of the USA so again the USA would have to absorb Canada and Mexico to win on that front.

Yes, the USA has a better per-capita GDP than anyone, but as Mexico is considerably poorer than any EU state including the ex-Soviet ones, in this case swallowing it would bring the North American per-capita GDP down to nearly European levels!

You read correctly (though unfortunately don't write so well), yet failed to understand. East Germany is not so poor, though many of the countries who most recently joined the EU are. No one denies that the countries in the east will have to do some catching up. My point is we don't hate them because of that. I've never heard the matter debated in Germany, and I travel there regularly. I believe that the eastern countries need our help and support, why is that a problem? Yes it puts an economic strain on the more powerful economies in the west, but not so much strain as to cripple them.


Alright, an European thought. The word "hate" is maybe not the correct one, but you can't deny there's a quite big problem in Germany. Many of them truly are fed up, but the Easterners are the ones not happy. Their expectations after the wall came down were very high. Unemployment is a huge problem in Eastern Germany and some westerners are getting tired of the situation. Mostly because Germans economy (both sides) has had some problems.
Also, new EU countries' bad economics were the only reason why there were a lot of disagreements of their joining EU. Not everyone were willing to pay for that.
I think the expansion was a good thing, but not every country should have joined. There are human rights problems in some Eastern European countries and I think that they should have solved them before joining the EU. Now everyone just turns their backs and say: Hey that can't be true, they're part of EU.

America liberated Germany from the Germans twice (as a group with you guys), we liberated France twice, Iraq from Saddam, Kuwait from Saddam, Panama from Noriega, Grenada from Columbia, Lebanon from (can't recall on that one lol) and so many others...who have we occupied? Who have we held power over? Hawaii voted to join the union, Puerto Rico is split, half want to join, half don't, they still have all the benefits. Why do people act like the US is comming to take over?

Of course, that's it! European states liberated countless countries from their primitive evil native leaders and implemented a system they believed in (if you want to call Christianity a system). After a brief occupation period while we converted the natives to our way of life (a bit like the US is doing in Iraq) we then let left them alone.

Call it liberation, occupation or colonization. Call it whatever you like. It's the same ball game.

Most people seem to think here that no swedes speak english, that is wrong, EVERYONE does. I live in Sweden and I have never attended anything but public schools (the worst ones). What you americans don't get is that public schools in Europe (especially Scandinavia) are far better than the public schools in US, do you want me to say this in french as well?

aucun stupide, je suis français je peux lire l'anglais pour me

Does that answer your question chump?

Do you not see my name over there to the left
<-------------------

Does that not inform you that I am in fact French?????

And who in the hell ever said anything about Sweden...all you have going for you are beutiful women...damn they are fine lol

Most people seem to think here that no swedes speak english, that is wrong, EVERYONE does. I live in Sweden and I have never attended anything but public schools (the worst ones). What you americans don't get is that public schools in Europe (especially Scandinavia) are far better than the public schools in US, do you want me to say this in french as well?
kanske på svenska? har du hört att ni har jättemycket ölja i Sverige?

Sweden? Oil? Oh please give me a brake. Even if you hate Europe you just can't be that ignorant.

Seriously, I get scared when someone say something like that, Sweden is NOT the arctic end of the world that noone has to care about. can that guy point out sweden on a map, it would surprise me... Oh by the way we found a huge oilreserve som weeks ago, but goverment are deciding to forbid exploitation as the Baltic sea is considred already to polluted.

Of course, that's it! European states liberated countless countries from their primitive evil native leaders and implemented a system they believed in (if you want to call Christianity a system). After a brief occupation period while we converted the natives to our way of life (a bit like the US is doing in Iraq) we then let left them alone.

Call it liberation, occupation or colonization. Call it whatever you like. It's the same ball game.
Yep, we liberated America from the Indians too. Hope you Americans have enjoyed your liberated country.

kanske på svenska? har du hört att ni har jättemycket ölja i Sverige?

jepp, men som jag säger i inlägget efter ditt, till skillnad från såväl jenkarna om öljeschejkerna inser vi miljöproblemen med oljeborrning

Population in City centre=/=Population of entire city(including subruban areas)
Still doesn't mean shit. Where does the suburban area stop?
It can be argued that all of France is Paris, even that Belgium is part of Paris.
It can also be argued that just the eiffel tower is Paris.

Seriously, I get scared when someone say something like that, Sweden is NOT the arctic end of the world that noone has to care about. can that guy point out sweden on a map, it would surprise me... Oh by the way we found a huge oilreserve som weeks ago, but goverment are deciding to forbid exploitation as the Baltic sea is considred already to polluted.
Maybe you found a leak of one Russian oilship?
No, seriously, the Baltic Sea is dying and rapidly. Hopefully your government has the guts to stay on that decision.

I guess where I am confused is this.

I make several points, and half of the Europeans come in here and refute them flatly as lies, then the other half come in here and agree but admit your dealing with the problem. Which is it?

Also, while your at it, can you write to all of the editors of your newspapers as that is where I like to get my damn information. If I find out that they have been lying to me all of these years, I am going to be very pissed and demand a refund.

aucun stupide, je suis français je peux lire l'anglais pour me

Does that answer your question chump?

Do you not see my name over there to the left
<-------------------

Does that not inform you that I am in fact French?????

And who in the hell ever said anything about Sweden...all you have going for you are beutiful women...damn they are fine lol
lol. what does "me" mean please?
BTW I'm a real french.

I guess where I am confused is this.

I make several points, and half of the Europeans come in here and refute them flatly as lies, then the other half come in here and agree but admit your dealing with the problem. Which is it?

Also, while your at it, can you write to all of the editors of your newspapers as that is where I like to get my damn information. If I find out that they have been lying to me all of these years, I am going to be very pissed and demand a refund.
The people in the UK get the same news as you.
The rest of Europe get different news.

I guess where I am confused is this.

I make several points, and half of the Europeans come in here and refute them flatly as lies, then the other half come in here and agree but admit your dealing with the problem. Which is it?

Also, while your at it, can you write to all of the editors of your newspapers as that is where I like to get my damn information. If I find out that they have been lying to me all of these years, I am going to be very pissed and demand a refund.
Which are the newspapers you read? Maybe we can send them more information about Europe.

lol. what does "me" mean please?
BTW I'm a real french.

I'm born and raised in America, so my French is not perfect by any means, but I am not completly ignorant either. My family is from Bordouex...or however it is spelled

The people in the UK get the same news as you.
The rest of Europe get different news.
What's that suppose to mean? I watch BBC World (at the moment btw), I read Time every week. Or do you mean the fact that they don't get a lot of news about other countries?
Hey, you're French right. Is it true that Americans bought your best newspaper? To get the not so nice news off the paper.

Essentially you 'folks' (ugh save us from 'Americanisms') must realise that, to the British, Europe is an island off the coast of England.

I believe it was The Times, in the early part of the last century, who put it into perspective with the headline ' FOG IN THE CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF'

Let's look at a few issues:
I just can't help myself. When I see nonsense like this I have to butt in. Silly me...

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.
No, arguably none of Europe is socialist. As for the socialism/democracy issue, you've created a false dichotomy. Finally, GDP is, in my opinion, a poor indicator of a country's health.

I was going to carry on but I see others have done so already and, besides, I promised myself I'd keep out of general...

Fear is at source of all the problems in the US.

The republicans are generally afraid of anything and everything, and one of the ways of getting a false sense of security is to be head and shoulders above any other nation in the world. Being bigger and stronger means that no one can hurt you. Or so they thought, until a bunch of braindead morons decided to crash planes into some of America's shiny icons.

Now they are confused and even more afraid. And whilst most of the democrats keep composed and understand that violence alone is not the best solution, the republicans act like headless chickens and draw a line and force everyone to pick a side ("you're either with us or against us"). I mean, I expect that kind of senseless crap from kindergarden kids while in the playground, not nation leaders.

Now the question is, how does one make republicans understand that not everyone is against the US, but also that those friends may not agree that waging war and invading countries is the best approach?

The problem is that after recent incidents the Europeans start understanding that the US is not a state to be relied on as an ally. I mean, we're not against them, but we don't want to be forced to attack countries when we don't agree with it. So it's only natural that the Europeans feel like creating a stronger union. Not to fight against the Americans, but to ensure our own independence and future even with the US going its own way.

Sweden? Oil? Oh please give me a brake. Even if you hate Europe you just can't be that ignorant.


Sweden? Oil? Confuses me aswell seeing as though i was referring to Norway.

I just can't help myself. When I see nonsense like this I have to butt in. Silly me...


No, arguably none of Europe is socialist. As for the socialism/democracy issue, you've created a false dichotomy. Finally, GDP is, in my opinion, a poor indicator of a country's health.

I was going to carry on but I see others have done so already and, besides, I promised myself I'd keep out of general...

This is silly, this is not philosophy 101. I could theoretically argue that humans never take a shit, but that is far from reality.

To even throw in that Europe is not socialist is just stupid, thanks for staying out of it, and you can lkeave general anytime you want. I can see why you were not to popular.

I'm born and raised in America, so my French is not perfect by any means, but I am not completly ignorant either. My family is from Bordouex...or however it is spelled
Bordeaux.
A nice city, greatest wines in the world there.

Sweden? Oil? Confuses me aswell seeing as though i was referring to Norway.

Someone: Look at Sweden and Norway.

You: Huh? Ever heard of oil?

It just sounded like you were referring both countries. If not, could you explain why Sweden is doing so well?

Fear is at source of all the problems in the US.

The republicans are generally afraid of anything and everything, and one of the ways of getting a false sense of security is to be head and shoulders above any other nation in the world. Being bigger and stronger means that no one can hurt you. Or so they thought, until a bunch of braindead morons decided to crash planes into some of America's shiny icons.

Now they are confused and even more afraid. And whilst most of the democrats keep composed and understand that violence alone is not the best solution, the republicans act like headless chickens and draw a line and force everyone to pick a side ("you're either with us or against us"). I mean, I expect that kind of senseless crap from kindergarden kids while in the playground, not nation leaders.

Now the question is, how does one make republicans understand that not everyone is against the US, but also that those friends may not agree that waging war and invading countries is the best approach?

The problem is that after recent incidents the Europeans start understanding that the US is not a state to be relied on as an ally. I mean, we're not against them, but we don't want to be forced to attack countries when we don't agree with it. So it's only natural that the Europeans feel like creating a stronger union. Not to fight against the Americans, but to ensure our own independence and future even with the US going its own way.


I'll remember that the next time you get into a war, and I'll send my boys to Canada to ride it out....using your logic we would have let your asses destroy each other a few times now. I hope we dig up our dead and bring them home sooner than later, becuase you just keep shitting on them at every opportunity.

What's that suppose to mean? I watch BBC World (at the moment btw), I read Time every week. Or do you mean the fact that they don't get a lot of news about other countries?
Hey, you're French right. Is it true that Americans bought your best newspaper? To get the not so nice news off the paper.No it isn't.

In France, we get more news from Africa. BBC/CNN/Fox News talks more about Israel/palestine, Iraq, Pakistan and the old colonies.

By the time this works, no one in the world will think of themselves in terms of nationstates(we will think of ourselves as humans). The EU has as much chance of becoming a conglomorate as Hindus, Muslims, and Christrians will believe in the same thing.

Mobility, and economics will unite us one day, but that day is far away. Gotta get rid of competing interests first. OR gotta find a common enemy.

Do you mean that it will be millennia before this works, or that in a hundred years, nobody will be thinking of themselves in terms of nationality?

People in many parts of Europe are thinking of their nationality in terms of conflicts several hundred years old, like the green/orange conflict in Ireland. The sides in this conflict refer to incidents including the Battle of the Boyne (1690) and the Cromwellian expedition into Ireland (1649).

I believe that among the reasons cited by participants in Balkan and Former Yugoslavian conflicts are incidents in the 13th and 14th centuries.

My point is that people love nationality, they cling to it, and I can see them clinging to it and still wanting a USE (I'm not advocating this as a name for it, just using an easy and easily understood formulation). I can't imagine that within a couple of hundred years, people won't think in terms of nation states.

The comparison with religion may just be a comparison, but it has a couple of apt features Religion and nationality are both to an extent matters of faith. You can be born welsh just as you can be born a methodist, but do you consider yourself british first or welsh first? Do you consider yourself christian first or methodist first? You can be born methodist and live your whole life not subscribing to methodist views, like you can be born welsh and not really care about your nationality. You can change your nationality like you can change your religion.

And people with widely differing views can subscribe to one nationality and get along fine.

Someone: Look at Sweden and Norway.

You: Huh? Ever heard of oil?

It just sounded like you were referring both countries. If not, could you explain why Sweden is doing so well?


Well i was explicitly referring to Norway, i thought you would be able to distinguish that.

Sweden has a capitalistic economy with huge welfare facets in it, which generally relates to higher living conditions. Also them being neutral in conflicts has sure helped them.

This is silly, this is not philosophy 101. I could theoretically argue that humans never take a shit, but that is far from reality.[/i]

To even throw in that Europe is not socialist is just stupid, thanks for staying out of it, and you can lkeave general anytime you want. I can see why you were not to popular.
Honey, are you trying to seduce me?

No it isn't.

In France, we get more news from Africa. BBC/CNN/Fox News talks more about Israel/palestine, Iraq, Pakistan and the old colonies.

Because you have more business with Africa than most of the European countries. We get a lot of news about Russian as we share the border with them. I think every country has this kind of "problem". But I do have to admit that at least I'm getting tired of BBC's news, only the biggest news ever come through. It's only about Iraq and Israel. CNN anf Fox News should broaden their view too.

This is silly, this is not philosophy 101. I could theoretically argue that humans never take a shit, but that is far from reality.

To even throw in that Europe is not socialist is just stupid, thanks for staying out of it, and you can lkeave general anytime you want. I can see why you were not to popular.

"A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically"

In this sense, Europe certainly is not socialist so Ecopoeia is actually right.

Because you have more business with Africa than most of the European countries. We get a lot of news about Russian as we share the border with them. I think every country has this kind of "problem". But I do have to admit that at least I'm getting tired of BBC's news, only the biggest news ever come through. It's only about Iraq and Israel. CNN anf Fox News should broaden their view too.
At least, BBC news broadcasts news (although it revolves more around the UK than the world).
CNN and Fox don't.
There has been an imporvment though in the last couple of months. I was surprised that BBC was covering Tchechnia that much. In the past, this part of the world did not exist.

Well i was explicitly referring to Norway, i thought you would be able to distinguish that.

Sweden has a capitalistic economy with huge welfare facets in it, which generally relates to higher living conditions. Also them being neutral in conflicts has sure helped them.

Thank you, nicely summed up the whole conversation. Maybe I'll move to Sweden. (I've really thought it several times.)

At least, BBC news broadcasts news (although it revolves more around the UK than the world).
CNN and Fox don't.
There has been an imporvment though in the last couple of months. I was surprised that BBC was covering Tchechnia that much. In the past, this part of the world did not exist.
And maybe BBC viewers will even have news from Africa since the son of the Iron lady has been in behaving badly. Can't bring guy's first name in to my mind at the moment.

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.


Europe has an aggressive anti-immigration policy, while america is very immigrant-friendly. If we wanted to increase our population, we'd start letting more immigrants in. Plus the US has a population of nearly 300 million, and japan a population of 125 million but their economy isn't that far behind yours in terms of size. Also china has about 1400 million inhabitants but its economy is smaller than britain's, so size doesn't always equal power.


2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

Germans work fewer hours than Britons, and yet they produce more. Working hard is not the same as working well. In Europe we believe that rested, happy people work better than tired people who haven't had a holiday in 2 years. One of the reasons Australian GDP is so high, by the way, is that they create most of it by selling raw materials. A lot of those are mined and are going to run out. They manufacture very little.

Look at India and China - India is a democracy with very little social welfare. China is a political oligarchy with a mixed social/capital economy. True enough that China's economic development really started taking off when it cut people loose from socialist economics, but what it has now is mixed, like the European economies, and it pisses on india in economic terms.


3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

Europe has a de facto official language, English. If you want to get anywhere in European politics or European (as opposed to within your own nation in europe) business you have to speak English. Europe also doesn't need to "become" strong financially. It *is* strong financially. Its economy is the biggest in the world.

Also China doesn't have an internal language problem. Although different areas of china and different ethnicities within china have their own languages and dialects, China has had an official language since 1951. All lessons in schools have been taught in this language. All Chinese under 50 speak it, certainly all Chinese in any position of even slight responsibility.



4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.


I can't see that anyone in the EU would be sorry to see US troops leave. West Germany managed to double in size, bringing into itself the whole of East Germany, which was a truly socialist basket case economy, and Germany is still the 4th biggest economy in the world. The whole of the EU (the world's biggest economy) wouldn't even notice if 100000 yankee warmongers went home.




To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.


That disgusting racist stupidity is just the kind of thing that made america great. Incidentally, China is going to overtake the US in the strength of its economy somewhere around 2050. It spends about 1/3rd on military hardware what America does. Just imagine how much it could spend if its economy was bigger than yours? Just imagine what it is going to do with the money instead of spending it on pointless weapons.

And incidentally, I studied China for 6 years, and worked with Chinese people for 12 years, and I lived in China a year, and I never saw a map that said "New China" on Australia. China doesn't need to invade australia, it is buying it up, same as it is buying africa.




Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.


And with all your military might, you can't beat 1000 guys with russian rifles designed in the 1930s and a couple of rusty RPGs. One day, america will learn that having lots of clever bombs doesn't equal world power. Have you forgotten Vietnam?


Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.


See above. We don't need a plane to fight the F35 because we aren't fighting the F35. we saved all the money you spent on your planes, and we bought schools and hospitals with it.


Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...


I don't think that there has been a test whether the youth of France, Spain or Germany will protect their homeland since 1945. European citizens don't want to fight in countries that AREN"T THREATENING THEM to protect dubya's poll ratings. Did you find those WMDs yet?


West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

Yes, we're raising the economic level of huge swathes of land, making Europe even bigger and richer. Is this a bad thing?


In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks

We're already a superpower. We just don't think we need to go waving our dicks in peoples faces to prove it. Please update your data banks.

You guys have managed to survive under the umbrela of US protection for the last 70years. Times have changed. we are rebalancing our military.

its time you started carrying the weight of your own freedom.

Good luck.

Drop us a line when you figure out the price of freedom.

edit: oh, and please explain why a cup of coffee costs 2x as much in London as it does in NYC.

thats a basket of goods adjusted number. Yeah, ur system is doing right by u guys.

we've survived by being decent with people so they don't want to blow us up. Coffee has to come a long way from colombia to britain, much further than from colombia to america. And when you buy coffee you aren't just buying coffee. In america, you buy coffee, and you buy a condo for the coffee shop owner, and a new yacht for the guy who owns the plantation.

in britain you're also buying education and healthcare for the guy who grew the coffee, and your grandma who never earned enough to buy a private pension, and you're buying english lessons for a bunch of refugees from the US invasion of somalia who are living in London and need to get jobs, and all the other things that a responsible society provides. Taxes rule.

Essentially you 'folks' (ugh save us from 'Americanisms') must realise that, to the British, Europe is an island off the coast of England.

I believe it was The Times, in the early part of the last century, who put it into perspective with the headline ' FOG IN THE CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF'
lol ;)
thats england how we love it :fluffle:
inselaffen at its finest.

btw i saw batman climb the buckingham palace some days ago. great idea. you gotta love the brits! :D

More problems in Europe. Putin has gained more power again. the union of the independent countries (sorry, don't know the official english name, Russian+many almost all other former Soviet Union countries) named Putin as their leader earlier today. The former leader was Ukraine's president Kutshma.

I didn't even bother to finish reading your post as your living in fantasy land as well. Why don't you people educate yourself instead of just throwing around vague notions? Go get a book, a magazine and learn this stuff, you could really be great at it if you used more facts and not just youthful angst.


We are educated. You are wrong. see below...


First, America is not fascist. I know that sounds all kewl to say, but get real. Everything I have said is atleast valid as an argument. Calling us fascist is like me calling you Mickey Mouse, it is just wasted verbage.


America isn't strictly fascist. The current government of america, however, has a lot in common with fascist governments
- it is biased towards one ethnic/religious group
- it seeks to combine high economic freedom with low social freedom
- it believes in educating the elite only - the lower classes can stay dumb since all they are for is work and consumption
- it uses overseas military action to prop up its popularity


Second, China has the same problem as Europe, but worse in scale. They are losing population faster than all of Europe. They are not growing. All of you think of things as growing exponentially, and it is just not the case. The United States is one of the fastest growing countries in the world, and since we are already so large that amounts to huge numbers of people every decade...million upon millions. We will literally more than double in less than 100 years at current trends.


China has been trying to stabilise its population since 1951. It hasn't managed it. Its population is still growing, and it is more than 4 times that of the US. Europeans don't think of their population as growing exponentially because we've been working on stabilising it for years too. And we're succeeding. Do you know what the single best predictor of population stabilisation is? it's economic growth. The richer a population gets, the fewer kids it has. Goes to show, doesn't it?


That doesn't mention all of our hemisphere...both American continents are where the human growth is on the entire globe.

That is only one apsect though, you have to also consider the economic factors. Indonesia is huge as far as population, but economically it is a joke. Rather like comparing your local supermarket to Chase Manhatten Bank. No matter how many people they get, there is just no way to breach the size of the financial institutions in any reasonable timeframe...can't even guess a number of years it would be possible.


OK so now we have dismissed the importance of population, why keep bringing it up? You have no idea what financial institutions there are in Europe do you? Did you know the world's biggest (in terms of global spread) bank is British? And that London is the second largest financial centre in the world?


Lastly, I never said America was better, or that we would invade anyone. Far from it. Who has America invaded? We are not Imperialists!!!

America liberated Germany from the Germans twice (as a group with you guys), we liberated France twice, Iraq from Saddam, Kuwait from Saddam, Panama from Noriega, Grenada from Columbia, Lebanon from (can't recall on that one lol) and so many others...who have we occupied? Who have we held power over? Hawaii voted to join the union, Puerto Rico is split, half want to join, half don't, they still have all the benefits. Why do people act like the US is comming to take over?

You never invaded anyone? How did you manage to liberate all those countries without invading them?

Let's look at a few issues:

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.

2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.

3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.

4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.

I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!

To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.

Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.

Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.

Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...

West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years. I would say all bets are off for becoming a super power. Tell me where I'm wrong, so I can update my databanks

Adding to the previous post:
What good is your defence force when petrol runs out?
All those trillions of dollars in pretty planes are going to be completely useless.
And when the world will be the estimated 5?C warmer in 2100?
Americans are so short-sighted about everything being glorious for the rest of eternity... anyone with brains can see that the U.S. is already tripping over itself and it will cease to be the global superpower in very little time at all really.
I think the EU will make great global superpowers, however there is a little breach of the laws of history that makes it seem impossible.
My theory in relation to global superpowers is that there always has been and there always will be one.. yes? Every country gets a chance at it. Now, most European countries have already had their chance at being global superpower independently. Now it is America. China has been a global superpower before as well... as almost every county in the world has at some point....
Except Australia.
I'm Australian. I hate Australia. I like Sydney but only because its the least Australian part of Australia, however by this little law of mine Australia has to be the next global superpower. The only reason it wont be is because we've just been playing America's little brother for too long and when America falls we will fall with them.
Yes, despite it going against my law... Europe will be the next global superpower... I see no reason why it wouldn't. China will rise, but when the environment hits the shit in a few decades China will fall easier than America because of its (short-sighted) dependance on natural resources.
Japan consists of incredibly smart and capable citizens.. however the interest for global domination just isn't there. Not that that's a bad thing at all, I just think they need a mention because they are by no means a nothing country.

The people in the UK get the same news as you.
The rest of Europe get different news.

What's that suppose to mean? I watch BBC World (at the moment btw), I read Time every week. Or do you mean the fact that they don't get a lot of news about other countries?
Hey, you're French right. Is it true that Americans bought your best newspaper? To get the not so nice news off the paper.

The UK doesn't get the same news as america. a lot of our newspapers are arse rags owned by an australian shitbag who also owns Fox. but we have the BBC, an independent (mostly) organisation with guaranteed funding that makes excellent quality news coverage.

as almost every county in the world has at some point....
Except Australia.
I'm Australian. I hate Australia. I like Sydney but only because its the least Australian part of Australia, however by this little law of mine Australia has to be the next global superpower. The only reason it wont be is because we've just been playing America's little brother for too long and when America falls we will fall with them.
Yes, despite it going against my law... Europe will be the next global superpower... I see no reason why it wouldn't. China will rise, but when the environment hits the shit in a few decades China will fall easier than America because of its (short-sighted) dependance on natural resources.
Japan consists of incredibly smart and capable citizens.. however the interest for global domination just isn't there. Not that that's a bad thing at all, I just think they need a mention because they are by no means a nothing country.

I cut your comments on Perrien's post because they were faultlessly correct. Another reason australia won't be the next superpower is cause there's only about 20 million of you and you all spend your time surfing and having barbies, and 80% of australians with talent go to the UK or US to live.

Also China's historic dependence on natural resources has been because of its underdeveloped economy. They're starting to manufacture high value electronics etc now. Just watch out for the day when your whole pc is made in China, not just the case.

Look, I mentioned language barrier was one of many problems. Damn, I must be all wrong, there are no problems and everything in Europe is just Utopia. Why are they taking so damn long to do anything? Once they are finished building this new Roman Empire can you have them all come over here and fix America? Especially send that Chirac fellow, I'd love to have tea with him.

Gee, you guys have shown me the light. If we do everything the European way we can get paid for sitting around and walking in the park. I love the concept, I'm just a tad bit leary as to who is going to pay my fucking taxes...

Do you think that we aren't paying our taxes? Europe works fine. We make more money and pay more taxes. We have better healthcare and better education. We have a smaller military capability, but since we don't have wars all the time, we don't mind.

The UK doesn't get the same news as america. a lot of our newspapers are arse rags owned by an australian shitbag who also owns Fox. but we have the BBC, an independent (mostly) organisation with guaranteed funding that makes excellent quality news coverage.

Every country should have an independent TV station whit guaranteed funding. As long as one takes money from someone, one's not reliable. But if the money is from the taxes, the station is responsible only to the people of the country. BBC is great not only because of the news I watch regularly but also because they produce good entertainment and quality tv-films.

There have been many efforts to create a USE in the history of Europe and untill now, it has allways ended in war and separation (Napoleon, Ceasar, Hitler)!
If we can't even manage to hold on to 1 Rusia, 1 Yougoslavia, and have the hardest problems to keep Italy toghether (with the northern part wanting to separate from the poor south), then why on earth would we try to create 1 big Europe??
It is a madman's illusion "Europe as an entity". The only thing we have in common is our continent, that is it and nothing more...

We want to create one big europe specifically to allow more splintering. Northern Italy and southern italy can become equal states of the USE, and they'd be happy. Just like wales and scotland are devolving from the UK and many of their politicians have the desire to have their own representation in europe as nations.

Plus Hitler, Caesar, Napoleon etc tried by force. The USE will be created by the will of the people. Or the apathy of the people.

Every country should have an independent TV station whit guaranteed funding. As long as one takes money from someone, one's not reliable. But if the money is from the taxes, the station is responsible only to the people of the country. BBC is great not only because of the news I watch regularly but also because they produce good entertainment and quality tv-films.

But Helioterra, how can you watch British TV? Don't you guys know that you are Finnish, and you speak Suomi not English? You could never understand the BBC, right?

;)

But Helioterra, how can you watch British TV? Don't you guys know that you are Finnish, and you speak Suomi not English? You could never understand the BBC, right?

;)
I just watch the pictures.

I just watch the pictures.

You see, that is why Europe will never work. Of course while you are watching the pictures, you are not working yourself, just stealing from the high-tax scandinavian socialist economy, which is only propped up by the generous donations of money from the US, who only take your moble phones out of charity.

You see, that is why Europe will never work. Of course while you are watching the pictures, you are not working yourself, just stealing from the high-tax scandinavian socialist economy, which is only propped up by the generous donations of money from the US, who only take your moble phones out of charity.
And I've spend my whole day here. But at least I'm working at the same time, editing is often just waiting.

English is adopted by modern Europe, you guys always fail to think of all of the members. They are not exactly fluent in English in over half the member nations since you brought in the eastern block.
In my experience (online, admittedly) most USA citizens aren't fluent with English, so what's your point? At least the average European school kid is taught one or more foreign languages.

Also, US projected population by 2050 is 570 million, EU is declining from what it is currrently...
Now I know you're not a good argumentator, which is why you attack every person making counter-arguments personally, because you can't prove their arguments wrong, but why on earth would you think that more people is better!?!? I mean, there are too many people on Earth already, and most countries (China, the European countries, even some lucky African countries) try to cut back their birth rates and are succeeding to a point. True, in some European countries there has been an outcry for losing workforce, but those same countries are usually the ones with unemployment, so I think it'll even out.

Now I know you're not a good argumentator, which is why you attack every person making counter-arguments personally, because you can't prove their arguments wrong, but why on earth would you think that more people is better!?!? I mean, there are too many people on Earth already, and most countries (China, the European countries, even some lucky African countries) try to cut back their birth rates and are succeeding to a point. True, in some European countries there has been an outcry for losing workforce, but those same countries are usually the ones with unemployment, so I think it'll even out.

No offense but you aren't any better at argumentation. You can't use personal opinions to try and prove a point as it carries no weight without any proof. The only factual statement in your entire paragraph would be the latter half of the sentence about cutting back on birth rates, even though if you look close it's still tainted with opinion.

I know all about socialism, I was raised my entire youth on welfare, as was everyone in my neighborhood.
Socialism is politics, welfare is economics. Please do not mix. Oh, and socialism isn't the same thing as communism (which is what the 50 years quote was about, I think), but then it might be hard for you to get, since the USA has no real left wing, just right and far right.

No offense but you aren't any better at argumentation.
I never said I was any better at it. ;) I just dislike his way of attacking everyone and insulting them.

I never said I was any better at it. ;) I just dislike his way of attacking everyone and insulting them.
Fair enough

Do you people not understand that most of the EU countries don't speak english?
EU _countries_ don't speak anything, as countries aren't factual entities with vocal cords, but the fact remains that almost every kid in Europe is taught another language (quite often English) in addition to the one they speak at home. For example, how else would I know even as much of English as I do to write this, if I hadn't learnt it in school?

some nutcases still building nuclear factories (Finland)
*giggle* Samaa mieltä... ;)

How about some facts from the CIA World Factbook 2004:
Cool list and thanks! I'll save this file somewhere for later use... :)

kanske på svenska? har du hört att ni har jättemycket ölja i Sverige?
Tai miksei suomeksi? Öljyä kun ei juuri täältä eikä Ruotsista löydy...

Oh by the way we found a huge oilreserve som weeks ago, but goverment are deciding to forbid exploitation as the Baltic sea is considred already to polluted.
Really? In Baltic? Or mainland? I hadn't heard of this. :) Jag vet ingenting... :D

No, seriously, the Baltic Sea is dying and rapidly.
It's not dying, just in problems - much would be helped by fresh salt water coming in through the channels between Denmark islands, but that hasn't happened in a few years, at least not in large enough amounts.

Gee-whizz youse guys...

My, there's a lot of ignorance floating around in here. Mostly, it saddens me, from Americans. I like America. A lot. A large part of me thinks we would be better off siding with America than Europe. (Me British) But America really is heading for economic collapse, not from oil, or war, or bloody terror alerts, but from its old people. Here’s one:

http://www.rense.com/general26/ftw.htm

And here's a better one

http://www.gold-investor.com/article.php/20040808112125968

And when America collapses and it will, the western world goes with it. Anyone with half a brain knows this. We all need the US, and its Economic and Military might. It is my, and I don't think I’m alone in this one, that Europe needs to 'band together' to protect each other when this happens. The EU builds up its poorest areas into booming, economic countries. Look at Ireland. 10 years ago, people there were the poorest in Western Europe. Now, it’s booming, and Dublin ranks just below New York for land costs and GDP. I don't see a similar policy going on in the US, with the southern states. Or indeed in Asia. Let’s not keep this Europe vs. America.

I've worked in America, (and China, and to that moron who slagged off China saying they call Aussieland 'new China'....damn, man, I used to be a teacher there, and I’ve never heard of that one, you really need to get your facts straight) and I loved it, loved the people and the cheap-ass everything. But that’s the problem. You won't accept that things have to increase in price, and - god forbid - if a politician says it has to happen, he's just committed political suicide.

The Euro is about as strong as the Dollar, despite the dollar being linked to gold, and being a basis of world currency. The Pound pisses on them both by the way. Personally, I can't wait until the UK adopts the Euro, and falls into line with the rest of Europe. Yes the US supplies us with a lot of aid, and well done for her, because she can, but remember that without Europe buying America's products, you would suffer a huge economic loss (and don't think for a second that you wouldn't)

China WILL become the next superpower, don't doubt it, as will the EU. Paththetic I know, but Europe has a hell of a lot of nukes, better trained soldiers and frankly, better hardware with the Euro Fighter and Britain’s new Challenger tanks. The US still stomps on us, from a great height, with high-tech personal equipment and weapons development though. My, I’d love to play with some of the stuff your boys are developing.

And don't even get me started on social policies. America hails itself as the world leader in freedom. To anyone who has lived in Western Europe for the last 60 years, this is laughable. Look at the policies of Holland, and that’s just one example. Look at all the countries. We no longer kill people just because we think they might have done something 'bad'. And, by the way, the UK separated Church from Government hundreds of years ago, it's embarrassing when your politicians keep going on about God.

I've not read all the posts, so I'm not sure if I’m repeating anything here. Enjoy.

Ok, after replying to everything worth replying, I'll ignore Mr. Perrien and his biased comments, and answer the original thread idea from my own (European) POV. Now I'm not presenting facts, since we're talking about future, but just my own guesses and opinions.

United States of Europe is not an unfamiliar concept to me - in fact, 7 years ago, when we had a school assignment to predict the future development of something (music, fashion, computers, anything), our group took Finland's independence as our project, and a part of it was to make a little questionaire to present to different people. The questions included "Do you think we will have our own currency unit up to year 2005?" (most replied 'no', and we've now had the euro for many years already), "Do you think the EU will one day become like USA?" (this went about 50-50), and "If yes, do you think it will happen within the next 100 years?" (a resounding 'no' on this one).

Now personally I think that the USE may come to be one day, but in light of what is and has been going on, I rather suspect it will be more like the current EU; unity in name only. We're still all squabbling little nationstates as it is, so I doubt the borders can all be abolished within the next hundred years.

I'm not going to rag on about your post because I basically agreed with it. I'm just going to get british on your british ass. Chai-Latte? *Chai-Latte* ?

I utterly fucking hate that phrase. Never have I heard anything so irritatingly, ignorantly marketese, made up by the kind of neo-sales semi-creative pointy haired starbucks wankers that are only by the size of their salaries separated from the people who write "Panini's 2.50" on the blackboards outside their restaurants.

The word literally is "Hindi for tea with milk, with the italian for with milk".
You can't have chai without latte. I bet chai latte isn't boiled up for hours altogether milk, sugar, cardamoms and all. Chai and Latte are from different continents. And don't we already have words for milky tea, those words being "milky" and "tea" ?

I totally support your right to have it as your name. I suspect you're being a little tongue in cheek with it, anglo-american perhaps. I even totally support the development of language, and i myself have a slightly midatlantic turn of phrase. I think Bill and Ted were the greatest things to happen to the english language in the latter half of the 20th century. I know I'm being unreasonable. I love the way that english absorbs useful words like pyjamas from other languages. I just HATE the way that all these wonderful things can be perverted by annoying marketing bastards.

rant over. carry on...

I'm not going to rag on about your post because I basically agreed with it. I'm just going to get british on your british ass. Chai-Latte? *Chai-Latte* ?

I utterly fucking hate that phrase. Never have I heard anything so irritatingly, ignorantly marketese, made up by the kind of neo-sales semi-creative pointy haired starbucks wankers that are only by the size of their salaries separated from the people who write "Panini's 2.50" on the blackboards outside their restaurants.

The word literally is "Hindi for tea with milk, with the italian for with milk".
You can't have chai without latte. I bet chai latte isn't boiled up for hours altogether milk, sugar, cardamoms and all. Chai and Latte are from different continents. And don't we already have words for milky tea, those words being "milky" and "tea" ?

I totally support your right to have it as your name. I suspect you're being a little tongue in cheek with it, anglo-american perhaps. I even totally support the development of language, and i myself have a slightly midatlantic turn of phrase. I think Bill and Ted were the greatest things to happen to the english language in the latter half of the 20th century. I know I'm being unreasonable. I love the way that english absorbs useful words like pyjamas from other languages. I just HATE the way that all these wonderful things can be perverted by annoying marketing bastards.

rant over. carry on...




Now THAT was funny. Thats the first post here thats made me laugh. I actually chose it because all my other choices were taken, and I just had a rather nice cup of it, loaded with cinnamon...it was nice. Thats all...

why shouldnt a united europe become true soon?
america will come down soon, everyone knows it. and with bush in power (im pretty sure he will get reelected) america wont go silent. and theyll either take a fight with china to prevent them from getting the next superpower, or europe for the same reason.
havent you noticed how much the iraq war helped creating a united europe? just wait a bit until the pro-war goverments in countrys like italy or poland get chased out of office and bush started another war, and with a little bit luck we will see the birth of europe as a unity.

A huge house in the Netherlands (not many huge houses as a whole) cost very little compared to let's say a tiny New York apartment, that will easily run you $2,000 a month.

I don't think rich is the word you meant to use...the typical American could buy anything in your country for pennies compared to what they have to pay here. I know what you meant, and I'm more inclined to agree with you, but you said it in a very wrong way lol.

Problem with you guys is your population is going in reverse...keep going that way and your population will be dominated by Arabs before too long lol
and your by mexicans. so?

havent you noticed how much the iraq war helped creating a united europe?
Uh, how exactly did it help? I think it more like un-helped, what with making the nations disagree with one another whole lot more on the general scale.

Ok, every one of those people are a figment of my imagination then? I think your to affected by this EU thing. All I can say is watch your back. I didn't see you guys doing much about Bosnia...oh yeah...another country we had to fix, right in your backyard that you watched turn into a pile of shit...good job...

Wow, I loved your use of diplomacy in that one

BOLLOCKS
few planes mean fuck all. especially when they hit chinese embassies
the land troops, were european for the most part.

As there has be recent discussions of a United States of Europe (and Tony Blair wanting the crown) do you think it will work? Do you think that all the countries will surrender to a singular identity as they are to the Euro?
I think you misinterpret things. The British government wants an Europe of Nations, not a super state. Issues like taxes, foreign and security policy should remain under the principal of unanimity. Since there is no CFSP (common foreign and security policy) but at least three different onces (Britain, France, Neutrals) there simply is none and there is no basis for one in the foreseable future (especialy in respect to transatlantic relations).
BTW, neither Britain or France are going to give up their seats in the UN Security Council. National identities are too strong to form an European super-state above the nations. Cooperation is important and the European Union is the tool for that. But it isn´t and isn´t going to develop into a super state. The rulers of the treaties is not the EU but the member states. And the national governments determine its policy and their own one.
I however think that Europe is going to develop economically into one entity. The trade also with Eastern Europe and the trade connections between the countries are growing faster than with the rest of the world. Especially in the Euro zone it makes little sense to look at national economies but rather at whole economy. And I believe that the new members are going to join the Euro as soon as they fulfill the criteria. And I do think that one day also Britain has to adopt the Euro because it is in its own economic interests and it can´t ignore that forever.

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.


US population is increasing due to the amount of immigrants. Won't last much longer. Whereas a few countries in europe are trying to bolster family sizes. which will work better do you think?


2. Most of Europe is socialist, and with the creation of the EU they are becomming more so. In order to entice memebers to join they are selling thier souls constantly. A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...Canda has 1/3 more people, yet GDP is almost half. The more socialist Canada becomes, the worse they perform in GDP. The EU is even much more pervasive in social programs. They work almost 1/3 less hours a year as Americans at this point already.


Our socialists are democratically elected. democracy and capitalism are not the same thing. Remember europeans created democracy, i think we peobably know what it is. We work less hours because we want to. Although i will agree that frances 35 hour week is pretty stupid. need to think a middle ground in my opinion. FOLLOW THE BRITISH EXAMPLE.


3. Language barriers - Now they can fix this if they make an official language, but they would then force everyone to learn French or German most likely. They have dozens of languages as it is, translation in Europe is a cottage industry, like accountants in the US. There is no way they can remain so divided verbally and become strong financially, to much energy and effort is required just to do basic daily functions for government and the private sector. China has the same problem here.


Finacially the GDP of the EU countries combined is substantially higher then the US.


4. You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability. Do you realize how far behind you are right now militarily? The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds from attacking eachother or from being invaded, which props up your economy artificially, and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you." Once we leave, you just lost 100,000 good paying job, and atleast 500,000 related job from your citizens that were in support. While not a deathblow, it will take you atleast 10-20 years to correct in your socialist government. Meanwhile, we move those jobs back to the US. it's called insourcing lol.


Japan went from a medieval society to a world power in less than a hundred years. The US only become superior in the last 50. What that can't be repeated. The EU produces more scientists than any other place in the world.


I just don't get the logic that becuase you merge your governments your going to be powerful, your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it, but powerful? Hardly!


Actually most EU nations are moving away from the excessive socialism of the 80's. Becoming more moderate.


To be a superpower you need much more than lots of people with lots of money. Look at China, those two factors don't mean anything to them. They have the fastest growing economy and the most people...and they are still knuckel dragging apes, although tiny ones.


ahhhh. so americans (US) are knuckel dragging apes then no? large population and money you said?


Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.


just involves investment.


Your avionics are nowhere near the F-35 due to be released in the next 20ish years...it would take you a trillion dollars to develop this capability at this point. That is just one of dozens of planes being released by the US in the next 20 years...I would be amazed if you could ever catch up frankly. Regardless of 2100 or 2500.


again investment. not sure but the eurofigher is nearly as good and cost substantially less


Your citizenry does not want to fight for you. What European nation other than England has a youth that believes in protecting the homeland? Damn sure not Spain, France, Germany, and on and on...


We all do. Most of us, UK included just don't like the idea of protecting our homeland by destroying someone elses.


West Germans hate East Germans as the west thinks they pay to much in aid and the east thinks they don't pay enough...that will be decades to solve, much like our affirmative action. That is taking place all over eastern Europe, and into the next several decades.

don't where you got that info from, but would be curious to see the articles that asked EVERY member of those populations for their opinions.

Uh, how exactly did it help? I think it more like un-helped, what with making the nations disagree with one another whole lot more on the general scale.
in different ways. first it sorted out american puppet regimes, and those will get removed by the next elections.
second it pulled those countrys who disagreed with iraq closer together. never before were germany and france in agreement in so many things. do you remember the parliament meetings? never before have things like that happened. and putin said during a meeting that he "would see no problem when the EU and Russia with it will be governed from Brüssel one time". this are only a few examples.
third, and this is the most important, it created a single enemy: america.
no one would doubt that america is the most hated country of the world, and iraq helped tremendously to spread this feeling in europe too, together with a certain degree of nervousness. with such a stupid flagwaving population who knows what a powerhungering warmonger like bush might attack next?
sure this pulls countrys together, and strenghtens the believe that another superpower must be created to counter the imperalistic, amok running superpower in decline.

third, and this is the most important, it created a single enemy: america.
no one would doubt that america is the most hated country of the world, and iraq helped tremendously to spread this feeling in europe too, together with a certain degree of nervousness. with such a stupid flagwaving population who knows what a powerhungering warmonger like bush might attack next?
sure this pulls countrys together, and strenghtens the believe that another superpower must be created to counter the imperalistic, amok running superpower in decline.
*giggle* OK, I never thought about it like that. :D

I have just read through all the threads regarding USE - why is nearly every comment comparing this to the USA? Not everything relates to our American "cousin", we could break the mould and do something new in our US.undefinedundefinedundefined

I have just read through all the threads regarding USE - why is nearly every comment comparing this to the USA? Not everything relates to our American "cousin", we could break the mould and do something new in our US.

Let's look at a few issues:

1. Europe is declining in overall population. They not only are not going to surpass the United States of America, even if they all banned together, but far from it, they physically can't due to land mass, regional issues. The US population is expected to double in the next 100 years. Europe is expected to decline overall.




Euh, the EU has at this moment allready more citizens then the US.

The rest is of your post are non prooven assumptions, specially that about the millitary (ever heared of the best battle tank in the world that outclasses anything the US has?, according tho US sources: Leopard II latest version, so good the US will install the superior technology and its cannon in the latest Abrahams ;) ).

It's not dying, just in problems - much would be helped by fresh salt water coming in through the channels between Denmark islands, but that hasn't happened in a few years, at least not in large enough amounts.

That's why it's so vulnerable. But you've read those articles they make each year? There are a lot of dead spots in the bottom of the sea where nothing lives anymore. I think the situation could turn into better but that means we have to limit the amount of petroleum carriers. Especially those not fit for winter conditions. And somehow try to reduce the amount of waste running via -öh- X-river from St. Petersburg.

in different ways. first it sorted out american puppet regimes, and those will get removed by the next elections.
second it pulled those countrys who disagreed with iraq closer together. never before were germany and france in agreement in so many things. do you remember the parliament meetings? never before have things like that happened. and putin said during a meeting that he "would see no problem when the EU and Russia with it will be governed from Brüssel one time". this are only a few examples.
third, and this is the most important, it created a single enemy: america.
no one would doubt that america is the most hated country of the world, and iraq helped tremendously to spread this feeling in europe too, together with a certain degree of nervousness. with such a stupid flagwaving population who knows what a powerhungering warmonger like bush might attack next?
sure this pulls countrys together, and strenghtens the believe that another superpower must be created to counter the imperalistic, amok running superpower in decline.
Over 90% of Spanish were against the war but still their leaders decided to get involved. Is that the kind of democracy we want to take place in Iraq? Well Spanish were loud and clear and kick the regime out. The situation in Italy is not as clear, as Berlusconi, no matter what, still seems to be quite popular. UK, we'll see. Half of them were pro-war anyway.
Putin has wanted to join EU since he got in power. EU still doesn't even want to discuss about it, so what Putin says about Brüssels, is pointless.
Europeans don't hate US, they hate Bush. Most of us just keep hoping he won't get elected again, so that we could start doing business as usual.
As mentioned many times before. Europeans don't want to create a superpower. EU is enough for everyone. Maybe it'l get a bit more tighter, but all the different governments, monarchies, languages etc will always be there.

Over 90% of Spanish were against the war but still their leaders decided to get involved. american puppet. or just lapdogs? doesnt matter, theyre gone now.
Is that the kind of democracy we want to take place in Iraq? huh? last time i checked iraq was an only-america-show there. i doubt "we" have anything to say there. besides, the recent "incidents" there (helicopter fireing into a celebrating crowd of people) lets me doubt the americans want any democratic structures there at all.
The situation in Italy is not as clear, as Berlusconi, no matter what, still seems to be quite popular. its hard to get news from there, but last time i heard something, it was 60% against Berlusconi.
UK, we'll see. Half of them were pro-war anyway. i have no doubt the brits will chase Blair out of office. alone the idea that their foreign policy is dictated by their former colony! emberassing!
Putin has wanted to join EU since he got in power. EU still doesn't even want to discuss about it, so what Putin says about Brüssels, is pointless. it still shown a certain trend. and haveing Russia inside the EU, maybe as a half-member would have the advantage of hugh natural resources.
Europeans don't hate US, they hate Bush. Most of us just keep hoping he won't get elected again, so that we could start doing business as usual. most hate bush thats true. but a lot hate america as a country just as much as bush. i know i do.
and bush will be reelected. just wait and see.
As mentioned many times before. Europeans don't want to create a superpower. again. *you* dont want to. i do, and a lot of people i know want too. as single small countrys we are destined to be bullied by stronger countrys, and that cant be allowed to continue. it will require sacrifices, and part of the national identity will probably be lost, but there is no other way.
EU is enough for everyone. Maybe it'l get a bit more tighter, but all the different governments, monarchies, languages etc will always be there.
sure. in a EU superstate it will still be there. who said it wouldnt?!?

I, for one, support a United States of Europe. It would be a good counter-balance to the United States, and would make us think twice before acting agressively..

HAHAHA. As long as the Franco-German axis exists, there will never be a "United Europe". Good luck!

First off, I've travelled extensively though most of Europe, minus Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean countries and I can see how this would benefit the larger countries. The UK, Germany, France will jump on board first, no doubt. Czech Republic, nope, they still haven't adopted the Euro because their economy is still too far behind to pay the difference; though they are becoming better. Spain would join next, though I would think that would be a good opportunity for them to try to seize back Gibraltor at that time. It propbably wouldn't happen, but that would be their only real chance to put it on the bargaining table. And Spain is fiercly patriotic. Probably one of the best policing forces and military trained personal per capita and low wage. Germany only bickers provincially (think states), but the country overall is very clean, rich, subsidized and powerful. They also do have a very good air force and military which co-train with Canada and the USA, hence they use the USA's F-15E's and so on. And I can't see why they couldn't develope their own if need be, with technologies from Mercedes-Benz and Porsche who free-lance their engineers, and whose companies both produce industrial and military technologies at this time. Those technologies you can find in the US military...how about that for food for thought? France has it's own developers, Dassault-Mirage and of course the UK has their own, and large navy and military and so on. That understood, it would take a long while to get the rest of the countries in. The whole European conglomorate would have to first be acting under the Euro. I can't see anything happening until this goes through. I also doubt they'll be called the United States of Europe. Britian might like that idea, but I can tell you no other European country would want to share the banner so close in reference to the USA. They are already connected with an extensive roadway and railway system so that is already in place and their taxing system would most likely be controlled through German banks as they have the smallest levees and largest infrastructure of banks in Europe, Turkey actually close behind with the UK in there. As for the langauge barrier there really isn't any. most do speak English as they trade with North America alot and also within Europe. Alot of citizens speak many dialects and different langauges. Their official languages would most likely be English, German and French, but not to say any others would be lost. Just like Canada has 2 official langauges, doesn't mean Ukrainian, German, Polish and so on is lost. Parliamentary system would be a hyper-breed of English parliament and German council with French governing thrown in most likely, as most of the countries follow close orders under influence from these three countries through their history. Much like Canada's is English based with French governing laws thrown in to round out the laws. And, most likely there will be caveats on certain smaller countries to control them due to low population, currency and so on till everyone can get up to speed, with funding and so on. As for the crown, well Tony Blaire can wear it, but I think it'll only be an image basis of a king, and not overall power, at least in the long term anyways. A side not to this, if this were to go through I can see Canada trying to get England to remove the last caveat from it's parliament. This would be also a good time for us, as the UK would no longer need to have it's eye on us anymore, especially since the handful it would have in creating this. They might be weak at first, but they would be stronger in the end. But it won't be easy. I can't see Italy or Greece jumping on the bandwagon so surely. They have a gaurded way of life which took a long time to get there, if think about recorded history, and they would no doubtedly look back on their history, recognize this and say no thanks. But like I said before, they'd need everyone to adopt the Euro first. Kind of like a pre-test of the European Union to see how that would work. If things go smoothly from there, then yes, it might happen. And they would be a Superpower, on the markets, and military-wise, but to their benefit as a more closey gaurded and protected union.

again. *you* dont want to. i do, and a lot of people i know want too. as single small countrys we are destined to be bullied by stronger countrys, and that cant be allowed to continue. it will require sacrifices, and part of the national identity will probably be lost, but there is no other way.

sure. in a EU superstate it will still be there. who said it wouldnt?!?

Actually You are quite alone in this. Only Germans (you) and French (and Tony Blair) want tighter relationships. The rest of EU countries don't agree. Of course German and France are the biggest EU nations but I still don't believe in a superstate. These three (if you include UK) may united more tightly but e.g. Scandinavian countries are not too keen, and neither are other smaller countries. Sweden hasn't join the euro yet and probably won't for a long time.

Smaller countries don't want to have Germans or French (or anyone else) as their leaders.

HAHAHA. As long as the Franco-German axis exists, there will never be a "United Europe". Good luck!

HAHAHA They are the most united nations in Europe. You live in the past.

Actually You are quite alone in this. Only Germans (you) and French (and Tony Blair) want tighter relationships. The rest of EU countries don't agree. Of course German and France are the biggest EU nations but I still don't believe in a superstate. These three (if you include UK) may united more tightly but e.g. Scandinavian countries are not too keen, and neither are other smaller countries. Sweden hasn't join the euro yet and probably won't for a long time.
yes germans are the most entusiastic ones when it comes to EU. recent polls showed that.
but your not right when it comes to smaller countrys dont want the EU.
scandinavian countrys believe in their neutrality, or that theyre somehow invulnerable or something and stay out of everything. but if a big EU works, id expect them to join too, but thatll take a very long time, yes.
Benelux countrys, and formost belgium seem very interested in a big EU.
austria, hungary and tchechnia (however its spelled in english damnit.) will probably follow germany. austria sure would. i expect them to be a big sceptical at first, but not much.
i dont know whats with italy. with emperor berlusconi i have no idea what he will do. so far he seems to like usa much more, but youll never know with italy. :rolleyes:
the new eastern members will see the ghost of the cold war rise when the EU unites. poland will probably leave the EU and ally with usa then. estland, lettland, litauen will be sceptical like scandinavia but would join sooner or later. either from because theyre afraid of the russians or because theyve seen that it really works.
that are my guesses. no guarantee though ;)

HAHAHA They are the most united nations in Europe. You live in the past.
yeah i wondered about this myself. the diving force behind the big EU forfeits the rest to unite?!? strange idea, and not worth an answer.

yes germans are the most entusiastic ones when it comes to EU. recent polls showed that.
but your not right when it comes to smaller countrys dont want the EU.
scandinavian countrys believe in their neutrality, or that theyre somehow invulnerable or something and stay out of everything. but if a big EU works, id expect them to join too, but thatll take a very long time, yes.
Benelux countrys, and formost belgium seem very interested in a big EU.
austria, hungary and tchechnia (however its spelled in english damnit.) will probably follow germany. austria sure would. i expect them to be a big sceptical at first, but not much.
i dont know whats with italy. with emperor berlusconi i have no idea what he will do. so far he seems to like usa much more, but youll never know with italy. :rolleyes:
the new eastern members will see the ghost of the cold war rise when the EU unites. poland will probably leave the EU and ally with usa then. estland, lettland, litauen will be sceptical like scandinavia but would join sooner or later. either from because theyre afraid of the russians or because theyve seen that it really works.
that are my guesses. no guarantee though ;)

What EU are you talking about? The one we now have or some other which may develop in the future? Smaller countries want EU but they don't want to give up their right to decide on domestical issues. I think EU works best as a economical organisation. I believe there will be EU troops and the new nations who joined last spring will take euro as their currency as fast as possible. Taxation is getting more and more similar in EU countries. I don't see a reason why European countries should unite more than this.

I'm not sure if I like all this talk of socialism.
Socialism doesn't work. You get quantity at the expense of quality.

Big, mighty, powerful corporations may sound evil, but they do bring more goods that bads. Take NASA, that's private, had it been a government thing, we wouldn't even have the space-shuttle. I'm sure of it.

Socialist governments are also too damned worried about being popular. they say what the people wants to hear. This is common within all political systems, but especially in socialism.

I'm not sure if I like all this talk of socialism.
Socialism doesn't work. You get quantity at the expense of quality.

Big, mighty, powerful corporations may sound evil, but they do bring more goods that bads. Take NASA, that's private, had it been a government thing, we wouldn't even have the space-shuttle. I'm sure of it.

Socialist governments are also too damned worried about being popular. they say what the people wants to hear. This is common within all political systems, but especially in socialism.
NASA is public.

I'm not sure if I like all this talk of socialism.
Socialism doesn't work. You get quantity at the expense of quality.

Big, mighty, powerful corporations may sound evil, but they do bring more goods that bads. Take NASA, that's private, had it been a government thing, we wouldn't even have the space-shuttle. I'm sure of it.

Socialist governments are also too damned worried about being popular. they say what the people wants to hear. This is common within all political systems, but especially in socialism.




NASA is Government owned and operated. And how do Corporations do more harm than good when they suck most of their employees dry and leave shriveled-up husks?

I'm not sure if I like all this talk of socialism.
Socialism doesn't work. You get quantity at the expense of quality.

Big, mighty, powerful corporations may sound evil, but they do bring more goods that bads. Take NASA, that's private, had it been a government thing, we wouldn't even have the space-shuttle. I'm sure of it.

Socialist governments are also too damned worried about being popular. they say what the people wants to hear. This is common within all political systems, but especially in socialism.
you know whats the biggest problem when talking with most americans?
they dont have the slightest idea what theyre talking about, but still think their misinformed opinion is of any relevance. :headbang:

just a little hint: nasa *IS* goverment owned!

I'm not sure if I like all this talk of socialism.
Socialism doesn't work. You get quantity at the expense of quality.

Big, mighty, powerful corporations may sound evil, but they do bring more goods that bads. Take NASA, that's private, had it been a government thing, we wouldn't even have the space-shuttle. I'm sure of it.

Socialist governments are also too damned worried about being popular. they say what the people wants to hear. This is common within all political systems, but especially in socialism.
Oh well, Russians were first in space..Enough said. I disagree and that's it.

First off, I've travelled extensively though most of Europe, minus Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean countries and I can see how this would benefit the larger countries. The UK, Germany, France will jump on board first, no doubt. Czech Republic, nope, they still haven't adopted the Euro because their economy is still too far behind to pay the difference; though they are becoming better. Spain would join next, though I would think that would be a good opportunity for them to try to seize back Gibraltor at that time. It propbably wouldn't happen, but that would be their only real chance to put it on the bargaining table.
Germany only bickers provincially (think states), but the country overall is very clean, rich, subsidized and powerful. They also do have a very good air force and military which co-train with Canada and the USA, hence they use the USA's F-15E's and so on.

I think it is realy cute that you have travelled so much in europe and seen so much of the military. Next time you might want to see the cultur/people/history etc?
I also like your first line "most of europe and not the mediterranean countries". Thats half of it. LOL

scandinavian countrys believe in their neutrality, or that theyre somehow invulnerable or something and stay out of everything.

We joined the Kyoto protocol!

"scandinavian countrys believe in their neutrality, or that theyre somehow invulnerable or something and stay out of everything."

That is one strange claim if I ever saw any. Norway hasn't joined the EU, true. Still it is a member of NATO. Sweden is neutral, still member of the EU, but didn't adopt Euro. If you are geographically challenged and include Finland in scandinavia: It's neutral, adopted Euro and is overall keen to join the core of the EU. Unfortunately the big countries can't get their act together and we have to wait. ;)

every europian speaks english
they have a smaller population but a smarter than the US
that also explains why most of europe is socialist
europe has achieved more than the US ever will muahahahaha :mp5:

:D It surprised me when I read it, but Europe (EU) has got a bigger population than the US. Let me get my info...(got it from recent reports, since the new countries have joined the EU). This info is facts, and not to doupt any other number is incorrect or not recent.

POPULATION:
Russia: 143 million
USA: 290 million
Europe: 451 million
India: 1.016 million
China: 1.262 million

MILITARY EXPENSE:
India: 16 billion € (1€ is bit more than 1 dollar if I'm correct)
China: 52 billion €
Russia: 72 billion €
Europe: 179 billion €
USA: 357 billion €

NUCLEAR WEAPONS:
USA: 10.656
Russia: ca. 10.000
Europe: >> France: 350
>> UK: 185
China: 370
India: 60

:D It surprised me when I read it, but Europe (EU) has got a bigger population than the US. Let me get my info...(got it from recent reports, since the new countries have joined the EU). This info is facts, and not to doupt any other number is incorrect or not recent.

POPULATION:
Russia: 143 million
USA: 290 million
Europe: 451 million
India: 1.016 million
China: 1.262 million

MILITARY EXPENSE:
India: 16 billion € (1€ is bit more than 1 dollar if I'm correct)
China: 52 billion €
Russia: 72 billion €
Europe: 179 billion €
USA: 357 billion €

NUCLEAR WEAPONS:
USA: 10.656
Russia: ca. 10.000
Europe: >> France: 350
>> UK: 185
China: 370
India: 60

Do Russia belong to Europe or Asia?

Better living conditions? Your socialist. That means your all sitting on your fat asses while your debt goes through the roof. Your grandchildren are going to hate you for working the least amount possible and dumping your old fat ass on them to take care of when your old. Enjoy your old age, as your all going to be living in group homes we call Homeless shelters.

And the US hasn't got any dept probably... maybe its about time the US started paying off its billion dollar dept to the UN so they can function well again. In fact, the US has got an enormous dept and many housholds are in huge depts, and the economy is dropping too... you're in a bit of a pickle I'm afraid.

NUCLEAR WEAPONS:
USA: 10.656
Russia: ca. 10.000
Europe: >> France: 350
>> UK: 185
China: 370
India: 60Absolutelly shameful.
I'm french and I thought we had less nuclear weapons than the UK.
Now that I've read this, I've lost all the last kind of pride I had in my country.

Do Russia belong to Europe or Asia?
Both.

MILITARY EXPENSE:
India: 16 billion € (1€ is bit more than 1 dollar if I'm correct)
China: 52 billion €
Russia: 72 billion €
Europe: 179 billion €
USA: 357 billion €

total = €676 billion wasted every year.
I think it must be something like 1000 times the debt of Africa?
Thx for the numbers BTW.

Do Russia belong to Europe or Asia?

Not in the statistics I gave, that is info of only the EU states. A big part of Russia belongs to the continent Europe and an even bigger part to Asia.

total = €676 billion wasted every year.
I think it must be something like 1000 times the debt of Africa?
Thx for the numbers BTW.

You're welcome. I got the stats from a series of little books one of our better news papers produced to inform the people about the new EU states. The first issue compared the important countries with the EU. They got the figures from "Der Spiegel", a German Newspaper. Where they got them from, I don't know, but I have little doubt that they are not bias or incorrect. The stats date from 2003, so military expense is probably a bit higher in the US right now, with the extra money they had to put in Iraq.

Europe is to liberal to become a superpower and as sad as it makes me to say it America won't be in the next 50 years because of liberals the ONLY way to save us is for a war a big one. Theres needs to be a big war every now and then just so we don't become useless and to compassionate.

Europe is to liberal to become a superpower and as sad as it makes me to say it America won't be in the next 50 years because of liberals the ONLY way to save us is for a war a big one. Theres needs to be a big war every now and then just so we don't become useless and to compassionate.
I take it u're american.
What does liberal mean there? Is that left wing (I mean from US' standards)?

Your comment about war is uninformed, stupid and foolish, but I hope it is a joke.

[QUOTE=Janathoras]Ok, after replying to everything worth replying, I'll ignore Mr. Perrien and his biased comments, and answer the original thread idea from my own (European) POV. [QUOTE]

That is the best thing you could do to that racist. BTW it is not bias, it were lies and propaganda. And he had no answers but new lies, like about the debt of EU countries while only under this US regime the US debt rises above all the debts of EU countries combined. Just saw it when you guys quote him since he is on the ignore list, can't see his bullshit anymore. You guys did your best but you see that that is impossible to debate with biased republican bible belt militia hillbillies.

BTW nice to see you people debate in Swerige and Suomi.

Europe is to liberal to become a superpower and as sad as it makes me to say it America won't be in the next 50 years because of liberals the ONLY way to save us is for a war a big one. Theres needs to be a big war every now and then just so we don't become useless and to compassionate.

Europe has the potential to be a superpower far more powerful than the US :rolleyes:
Our governments just choose to spend revenues on things that actually benefit the people, rather than just the military.

Europe is to liberal to become a superpower and as sad as it makes me to say it America won't be in the next 50 years because of liberals the ONLY way to save us is for a war a big one. Theres needs to be a big war every now and then just so we don't become useless and to compassionate.

Hm yes I think liberal means commie-pinko in the US, a bit like fascism means republican in the US. And lesser fascism means democratic in the US. Not much to chose from and of course they are all against liberals, because liberals are commie-pinkoes and Russia is evil (but not that evil as the evil terrorists).

if anyones interested found this site.

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/nd02nukenote.html

I do so hate it when Americans look at the world the way Europeans did a hundred years ago - through the distortion of their own subjctivity, seeing themselves as the norm and judging everyone else by comparison.


Most of Europe is socialist,


??
I'm French, and I can tell you, I'm not living in a socialist country. We've got a right-wing government right now, and it can be felt. Yes, we have far more social rights than in the US... and sorry, but in my opinion that's a good thing. I happen to like having virtually free health care, and I don't mind paying taxes so people less fortunate than me can get decent standards of living. It's called solidarity, and compassion.

The problem is, in the US you haven't got anything on the left side of the political spectrum, so when you look at Europe, which has a left-right balance, you see something that looks weird to you.


A Democracy far outpaces a socialist society economically without a doubt. Look at Australia and then look at Canada...


Please tell me you're not saying the EU and Canada aren't democracies?

Also, in the EU and Canada we have far better standards of life than in the US or Australia. Better health, longer life expectancies... I'm fine where I am, thanks, and I'm living quite comfortably on my salary as a trainee teacher, which is hardly astronomical.


You mentioned Superpower...how is that ever going to happen? Even if you managed to pull together, you have no military capability.


Ah. So for you "superpower" has to equate with military power? I find that rather sad...


The US still has hundreds of thousands of troops keeping you turds...

You demean only yourself through insults.


...from attacking eachother or from being invaded


Attacking one another?? Shows how little you know about the EU. As for invasion... By whom, pray? I would also point out that there are two nuclear powers in the EU. You don't try to invade a nuclear power, unless you're feeling a tad suicidal.


, which props up your economy artificially,


There is no country in the world more in debt than the US. The rest of the world is propping you up. If you were asked to repay that debt, you'd be in a fine mess.


and I gaurantee your going to lose that in the next ten years as were sick of you not saying "Thank you."


You sound like a crybaby. Besides, we are grateful for the US' role in WW2 - just as we are grateful to the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the Soviets, the FFL... We just don't rush to your beck and call on your whim to follow you into a war when we feel it's morally wrong. Stop whining, and live with it. (And I will refrain from pointing out who liberated you from British rule in the first place...)


to correct in your socialist government.


Again, if you think Blair or Chirac are the leaders of "socialist governments", you are very sorely misinformed.


your all welfare states. I'm not saying your bad or anything, far from it,


(It's spelled "you're". Contraction of "you are".)

Well, thank you. I disagree with the US' system of state, but I happen to respect it as a sovereign system with the right to decide for itself. ;)

I'll pass on your crudely insulting remark about China.


Your military has no LIFT capability, you couldn't get anywhere in the world to fight anyone without driving there. This alone would cost you hundreds of billions of dollars in this day and age, and you have no been working on it annually for 60 years like the US has.


EU nations currently have troops all over the world.


In conclusion, you guys had better be happy if you don't end up in another European war over the next 100 years.

Get up to date, please.

You're welcome. I got the stats from a series of little books one of our better news papers produced to inform the people about the new EU states. The first issue compared the important countries with the EU. They got the figures from "Der Spiegel", a German Newspaper. Where they got them from, I don't know, but I have little doubt that they are not bias or incorrect. The stats date from 2003, so military expense is probably a bit higher in the US right now, with the extra money they had to put in Iraq.
youll hardly get a more unbiased and reliable source then "Der Spiegel". you should one time read through the history of this newspaper (dont know if they have an english site through...) its really interesting.

Europe is to liberal

It's spelled "too". And I'm assuming you're American. Your view is culturally biased; just because the US has no left-wing doesn't mean it's abnormal to have one. Makes me laugh when you say Europe is too far to the left. Take a look at France today, please; you'll find our government is anything but "left-wing". We just happen to have social rights which I believe everyone should be entitled to.

By the way, here in Europe (as in Australia and other countries), we use the word "liberal" in a different sense than you in the US. Over here it means economically liberal (i.e., ultra-capitalistic, right-wing); in Australia, "liberal" is synonymous with "conservative".


Theres needs to be a big war every now and then just so we don't become useless and to compassionate.

Oh, yes, compassion is a terrible sin. And I do very much hope you're joking. Then again, I suppose someone who despises compassion would likewise not care about the horrific suffering engendered by war...

Our governments just choose to spend revenues on things that actually benefit the people, rather than just the military.

Well put. :)

youll hardly get a more unbiased and reliable source then "Der Spiegel". you should one time read through the history of this newspaper (dont know if they have an english site through...) its really interesting.

You can always double check the info. The link Daroth sent regarding Nukes had equal info concerning nuclear weapons as the info I sent. It was even more accurate actually. I don't know Der Spiegel, but the newspaper in Belgium that used these stats are a very objective and a very respected paper. They have for certain doublechecked these stats. Anyhow, there was another source too, called Eurostat. These are very reliable.

I do so hate it when Americans look at the world the way Europeans did a hundred years ago - through the distortion of their own subjctivity, seeing themselves as the norm and judging everyone else by comparison.



??
I'm French, and I can tell you, I'm not living in a socialist country. We've got a right-wing government right now, and it can be felt. Yes, we have far more social rights than in the US... and sorry, but in my opinion that's a good thing. I happen to like having virtually free health care, and I don't mind paying taxes so people less fortunate than me can get decent standards of living. It's called solidarity, and compassion.

The problem is, in the US you haven't got anything on the left side of the political spectrum, so when you look at Europe, which has a left-right balance, you see something that looks weird to you.



Please tell me you're not saying the EU and Canada aren't democracies?

Also, in the EU and Canada we have far better standards of life than in the US or Australia. Better health, longer life expectancies... I'm fine where I am, thanks, and I'm living quite comfortably on my salary as a trainee teacher, which is hardly astronomical.



Ah. So for you "superpower" has to equate with military power? I find that rather sad...



You demean only yourself through insults.



Attacking one another?? Shows how little you know about the EU. As for invasion... By whom, pray? I would also point out that there are two nuclear powers in the EU. You don't try to invade a nuclear power, unless you're feeling a tad suicidal.



There is no country in the world more in debt than the US. The rest of the world is propping you up. If you were asked to repay that debt, you'd be in a fine mess.



You sound like a crybaby. Besides, we are grateful for the US' role in WW2 - just as we are grateful to the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the Soviets, the FFL... We just don't rush to your beck and call on your whim to follow you into a war when we feel it's morally wrong. Stop whining, and live with it. (And I will refrain from pointing out who liberated you from British rule in the first place...)



Again, if you think Blair or Chirac are the leaders of "socialist governments", you are very sorely misinformed.



(It's spelled "you're". Contraction of "you are".)

Well, thank you. I disagree with the US' system of state, but I happen to respect it as a sovereign system with the right to decide for itself. ;)

I'll pass on your crudely insulting remark about China.



EU nations currently have troops all over the world.



Get up to date, please.

You are my god... ;) My English and knowledge about the US isn't nearly enough to put such a well underbuilt answer.

I wonder if that Perrien is an American Christian, the way he bashes compassion and reveres war? :p

I have just read through all the threads regarding USE - why is nearly every comment comparing this to the USA? Not everything relates to our American "cousin", we could break the mould and do something new in our US.

Actually because some git Perrien posted a long and entirely erroneous list of reasons why america is better than europe and europe could never confederate.

The sad thing about this thread is how a few (I did say a few not all) americans like Perrien jumped into this conversation and started bitching at everyone else.
The thing is the USA should want EU to become a superstate. We would both be democracies. We have more similar values than ones that differ.
Yes we would be economic rivals, but then most countries do compete.
If the EU became a superstate that include turkey and russia, could you imagine the calming influence it would have on northern africa, central asia and the middle east? Hell it would help stabilize those regions!

I think it would also help the other economic groups like NAFTA, etc.. to move in the same direction and prevent further conflicts in the future.

Europe is to liberal to become a superpower and as sad as it makes me to say it America won't be in the next 50 years because of liberals the ONLY way to save us is for a war a big one. Theres needs to be a big war every now and then just so we don't become useless and to compassionate.


Do you know what liberal means in europe? It means "keen on liberty". I'm amazed the land of liberty is so against liberals.

I'm further amazed that you believe the power of your nation is undermined by having citizens that believe in liberty and justice for all, and that the only thing to keep you strong is war.

Since you do believe these things, are you surprised when people want to bomb your country?

ps, what's an enodscope?

By the way, here in Europe (as in Australia and other countries), we use the word "liberal" in a different sense than you in the US.

In the uk, that kind of thing is called "libertarian". We use liberal to describe centrist democrats with a sort of fair-play, socially responsible agenda, like the Liberal Party.

I have to admit I haven't looked at the effects the last 11 countries joining the EU has had. I'm basing my argument on information known in my head prior to that. I know that is not a good position to argue from, but all 11 of them were Eastern Block, thus other than population, most had a negative overall effect. But it was a sweet deal for the 11 lol.

Also, I support the EU, I'm just not real happy that they bitch about the US, while we pay the bills of poor nations all over the globe. How much do they give to Africa for Aids? I'll bet it is less than 25% of what we pay. But they constantly say we do not pay enough.

But we don't invade countries and kill civilians... I think US propaganda is blinding your thoughts. I know almost everyone in my street donates to either "Medicines Whithout Frontiers", "Amnesty International" or some other organisations I can't think of an English name for. Anyhow, we do projects and don't drop food on the ppls heads. We work on creating jobs and building water pumps for villages. At least, thats what I know. And don't forget, we also spend much much money on our own less fortunate civilians. Maybe the US should start doing this too...oh waith a minute...thats commie-pinko liberal talk...please don't shoot me.

Inspired by you competitiveness. Lets compare our dicks when you get to Belgium ok?

pff why are all Americans nagging about that we are lazy socialists etc?
A recent study has proven that belgium workers are one of the most productive in the world (and we don't work 16 hours a day etc).
But that is really not the point, the point is Europe as a whole could and will actually work, and not by means of militairy, but with democracy.
And we here in Europe don't have to be affraid when we lose our jobs that we won't have money for food, because we have ...don't know the name, welfare system? And for medical issues, when someone get's ill and has no money, that's no problem, they will be threated just like a person with money, unlike in the US....
and sorry for my bad english, I'm only a stupid european? who can only speak french, german, dutch, and english? :D

You are my god... ;) My English and knowledge about the US isn't nearly enough to put such a well underbuilt answer.


LOL. Thank you! :D About my English, though, I'm half-English, so it's hardly an achievement for me... ;)

In the uk, that kind of thing is called "libertarian". We use liberal to describe centrist democrats with a sort of fair-play, socially responsible agenda, like the Liberal Party.

Interesting. Just goes to show how one word can have lots of different meanings in different countries. The Liberal Part in Australia is also called the Conservative (or Tory) Party, and the party Démocratie Libérale, in France, is right-wing and ultra-capitalistic.

But we don't invade countries and kill civilians... I think US propaganda is blinding your thoughts. I know almost everyone in my street donates to either "Medicines Whithout Frontiers", "Amnesty International" or some other organisations I can't think of an English name for. Anyhow, we do projects and don't drop food on the ppls heads. We work on creating jobs and building water pumps for villages. At least, thats what I know. And don't forget, we also spend much much money on our own less fortunate civilians. Maybe the US should start doing this too...oh waith a minute...thats commie-pinko liberal talk...please don't shoot me.

Inspired by you competitiveness. Lets compare our dicks when you get to Belgium ok?
Hmmm... Actually his numbers were false. The EU is the single biggest provider of foreign aid on earth. And in Africa it is even more true.

Interesting. Just goes to show how one word can have lots of different meanings in different countries. The Liberal Part in Australia is also called the Conservative (or Tory) Party, and the party Démocratie Libérale, in France, is right-wing and ultra-capitalistic.

You'd think they'd try and standadise it throughout the EU. I don't think they really be able too because of the history of the parties, etc...

Have an idea though. I assume everyone here is familiar with the PH strips (you know to see levels of acid/red or alkaline/blue). Why not do the same for political parties? Under the name of the party, have a colour that represents their position on the scale. That way there would be less confusion on the names.
A sudden thought, so i know it probably still needs work. Any opinion/criticism?

I know some parties have colours to represent their position already. Red/left, blue/right.
An example is New Labour in the UK, they use red, but seem to be center left, so maybe the colour should be mauve or purple instead......

blame any oddness on lack of food.....

You'd think they'd try and standadise it throughout the EU. I don't think they really be able too because of the history of the parties, etc...

Have an idea though. I assume everyone here is familiar with the PH strips (you know to see levels of acid/red or alkaline/blue). Why not do the same for political parties? Under the name of the party, have a colour that represents their position on the scale. That way there would be less confusion on the names.
A sudden thought, so i know it probably still needs work. Any opinion/criticism?

You don't have that? I think it's quite common to place parties in a line from red to blue (communist - far right). But where the fook to place them Greens!
:D

Edit: Oh yes! and those fascists (black) and any rainbow coalitions... tricky.

Ok, every one of those people are a figment of my imagination then? I think your to affected by this EU thing. All I can say is watch your back. I didn't see you guys doing much about Bosnia...oh yeah...another country we had to fix, right in your backyard that you watched turn into a pile of shit...good job...

Wow, I loved your use of diplomacy in that one

Actually the U.S. thinks that "fixing" a country is done when the bombardments and the actual shooting is over. Then European troops have to move in to do the peacekeeping part of the deal (e.g. Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan). Until they had to stay with a large troop force in Iraq after the official shooting war ended most americans thought that this peacekeeping stuff was easy to perform so that Europeans can do it while they took their soldiers home.

i have no doubt the brits will chase Blair out of office. alone the idea that their foreign policy is dictated by their former colony! emberassing!
As a Brit, I can assure you that this probably won't happen and if it does it will be very bad for us. If Blair goes, it won't be because he's been replaced by someone else in the Labour Party. It won't be because the Lib Dems are finally in power. It will be beacuse the Conservatives win the election. That would be a disaster and that's why Blair won't be booted by us. We have no realistic short-term alternatives.

alone the idea that their foreign policy is dictated by their former colony! emberassing!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

HAHAHA. As long as the Franco-German axis exists, there will never be a "United Europe". Good luck!
You have a point in that respect. But what would happen if this axis falls apart? Europe would then be even more divided than it is today. So, that won´t happened either.

I, for one, support a United States of Europe. It would be a good counter-balance to the United States, and would make us think twice before acting agressively..
And that is what I oppose. A world of rivaling powers is a dangerous idea. The Cold War was a dangerous period with the thread of a World War III always imminent. Especially during the Cuba crisis in 1962.
I don´t want a world of rivaling powers but a world of cooperation.
Europe and North America belongs together. I want a strong cooperation between European countries and the US within Nato against common threats.

Wow. Can we take it as read that Perrien has been, ah, slapped down good and proper?

Wait someone said the economy of a democratic country way outpaces a socialist country and used Europe and US, Canada and Australia as an example...

How is Canada and Europe not democratic????? What are you talking about? If your talking about social welfare as a sign a country is not democratic I suggest you read a little bit more.

As for China being knuckle-dragging apes.... I don't think I need to say anything more. Your chauvanism about.. well everything, is repulsive to say the least. How can you be so confident in what you are talking about when hardly anything you said made sense.

As a Brit, I can assure you that this probably won't happen and if it does it will be very bad for us.
It would be bad for Europe as well. Blair is the first prime minister who really wants to take part in the process of European integration. Under his administration Britain has even formulated a concept for European integration instead of always saying: No, no, no.
An Europe of Nations - not a super state - based on inter-gouvernemtal cooperation and decision making of the Council of ministers by majority decisions. That should step by step include all areas except taxation, foreign policy and defence policy.
That would be a closer integration than today. I for my part could live with such an EU. Problematically many in Britain see even that as to close.
Today Britain plays a very important role in keeping the transatlantic alliance alive. The position of Blair is difficult but it needs to be done. I for my part see him as a very important and a very good prime minister of Britain.
And I´m convinced that he is going to be reelected. The Torries don´t present an alternative at all. Especially their EU policies are desasterously and would led Britain to the side of Europe (and could led Britain out of Europe) and not at the centre - which Blair wants to do.

Wait someone said the economy of a democratic country way outpaces a socialist country and used Europe and US, Canada and Australia as an example...
How is Canada and Europe not democratic????? What are you talking about? If your talking about social welfare as a sign a country is not democratic I suggest you read a little bit more.
As for China being knuckle-dragging apes.... I don't think I need to say anything more. Your chauvanism about.. well everything, is repulsive to say the least. How can you be so confident in what you are talking about when hardly anything you said made sense.
I think the US has a little problem. It believes that it had always won everything. They forget such little defeats like 1812 against the British, the draw in the Korean Civil War (1950-53 - yes South Korea was defended but North Korea was not liberated although it was close to that in 1951 before the Chineses "volunteers" intervened and turn the thing around again), the Vietnam War.
That could led to dangerous misconceptions.
I hope the United States does have now finally a realistic concept for an Iraqisation of the issue in Iraq. If that is a case the mission could still be a success. But otherwise ...

I think the US has a little problem. It believes that it had always won everything.

Hear, hear. It also has the problem of failing to realise that nations outside its borders are not there to be judged and controlled by it.

I must admit that I only read through the first few pages, as 17 pages is a discouraging amount of posts, especially when you read the content of most.

First of all, many here seem to like a 'war'-scenario between the US and other countries, like it's some bad Freddy vs Jason movie. To respond to that, it is never going to happen. The US and EU are buddies, and far, far away from being at any sort of war. Besides, what would be the reason to invade? We are too much alike for war.

In regard to the original topic of this thread, I can only state my personal opinion that the EU and a USE will not work. The Netherlands, in percentage, is paying the most of all European countries, and most of the Dutch are getting pretty fed up with it. With more and more countries joining each year, like Turkey (which I, might I add, do not support) taxes for the richer nations rise and rise and rise.

I do not mind giving money to charity. What I do mind is that we here are suffering an economic setback and that it is hardly registering in the money we send to the EU. In fact, the EU is the whole reason we are in this mess. As the EU wants to keep the Euro strong, we have to make compromises we should not have to make.

And that is the problem right there. European nations are different and diverse and unwilling to cooperate. Many laws are different, and I do not want to be infringed in my liberties (for example the drugs-policy), and I want to play video games as they are meant to be played, not without the blood, as is normal in Germany.

Europeans are socialist? What a gross generalisation. Frankly, I am glad that we are helping the people at the bottom, and I know for a fact that war-veterans of European countries are much better off than those from the US.
Europe being expensive? Is this you being pissed that both the Euro and the pound are worth more than the US dollar?

Personally, I love good food. I love to eat delicacies, and I'm willing to pay a lot of money to get that kind of food. Our food may be more expensive, sure, but does that matter? There are plenty of options for poor people to eat meat as well. Besides, at least our steaks are not filled with growth hormones, which are (scientifically proven) bad for a person's health.

Mr U

Hahaha, this must be the lamest thing I have ever seen.... Why not discuss the fact that blue is nicer than pink?

Ohh, i got one thing to say though... You stupid americans are all ex-europeans... All we send to that no-man's land were criminals and peepz that didn't have one single shot to make it in europe. Strange that you guys got Chinatown? Noo.... Cause you guys haven't got any history or identity. You just copied little parts from all kind op populations. Shame...

Oohh and, france helped you guys out in your civil war... But i think you all are trying to forget that, right? (I'm not french, by the way)

So kiddies, go to school and suck it up!


(You know that New York means New Amsterdam? That it's dutch and was traded for surinam? No, you'd propably not. Hmm New Orleans looks an awfull lot like Orleans in France..... Pfff.... Either you are OR indian OR ex-european.)

Kaching! Reality Check!


You guys didn't even excist when we were making art, were inventing things and so on and so on... Trust me, the most shittiest things ever happened to the Native American People (the indians that is), is that Columbus (AN EUROPEAN DUDE!!!) accidently discoverd your current home and lots of europeans without family or work in europe thought that they had more success in a new unknown land....

Damn, even Dollar is the translation of Daalder, the dutch currency before the Euro....

instead of being so cocky, you should be on your knees, thanking europe every goddamn day for making YOUR life possible.

Vret OUT!

vietnam occupied...
lots more...

the soviet union liberated germany
the soviet union fucked himselve up...

in china its a law that you cant have more than 1 child thats why the population decreases beceause the nation is overpopulated
in the US people will soon be job-less beceause of over-population

you are imperialists...
wanting to create influance all over the world

And I suppose France never occupied Vietnam and still occupy a little place called French Guyana (or do you prefer Suriname) in South America? Or that the British once occupied half the world not too long ago and still have scattered possesions around the world? Or that Denmark has occupied the island of Greenland for quite some time? Or that more countries in Europe then I care to name have scattered possessions and colonies still? Frankly sir/madam, you're quite the hypocritic saying Europe is better than the US because Europe doesn't occupy lands like the US because Europe does. Look at a map of the world sometime, I think my point is quite clear: That you're no different than us in a lot of ways.

And I suppose France never occupied Vietnam and still occupy a little place called French Guyana (or do you prefer Suriname) in South America? Or that the British once occupied half the world not too long ago and still have scattered possesions around the world? Or that Denmark has occupied the island of Greenland for quite some time? Or that more countries in Europe then I care to name have scattered possessions and colonies still? Frankly sir/madam, you're quite the hypocritic saying Europe is better than the US because Europe doesn't occupy lands like the US because Europe does. Look at a map of the world sometime, I think my point is quite clear: That you're no different than us in a lot of ways.
Except of the fact that the Empires of European countries have reached their peak before and are declining while the American Empire is still rising.
Due to that fact there is of course a different perception of Imperialism. After all: Imperialism is bad if it is done by others but not by oneself.
On the other hand: the US has always criticized Europe for their imperialists policies. It was the first colony which seized independence against its European motherland.
And it also went to World War I to stop German imperialism. Aside of World War II where it stopped Japanese imperialism and also - together with Britain and the Soviets - German imperialism.
But for what? I think for freedom and alliances with it and not for a new imperialism.
America was able to gain popularity because it stood for different things than imperialism. It stood for freedom and democracy and not for imperialism. Well, that perception changed with Vietnam and even more now.
Imperialists powers are never popular. If you go that path you have to live with that fact and shouldn´t complain about it.

I think the biggest difference between the U.S and Europe is that on the whole U.S citizens believe in their country and its values. In Europe patriotism is a dirty word and cynicism is utterly pervasive. If you hang a flag out of your window on any other occasion than a sporting one you a dubbed a racist, that would never happen in the U.S.

A word quite popular in Europe at the moment is 'toleration', I don't really understand what people mean by this - why on earth should I have to 'tolerate' something if I believe it is wrong. We in Europe, or at least in Britian seem to wish to bend over backwards to appease the attitudes and beliefs of others. I read an article in the guardian that seemed to sum this up, the writer was commenting on a recent finding by a governmental report into the Islamic method of killing animals - 'halal', they concluded that the practice was inhumane, yet the writer of the article seemed more concerned about "not offending the Muslim community" than banning something that is morally wrong.

I think one of the reasons why the military of Europe is so vastly downgraded in comparison to the U.S is that we do not have enough faith in our own values and beliefs to believe that we should enforce them throughout the world. We see things like human rights, personal freedoms and democracy is being "western" in basis and not necessarily ones that should be promoted universally.

I appreciate there are a lot of generalisations here, but these are necessary in order to talk about general trends. Europe has a lot of good points, but the level of cynicism and our lack of faith in our own values is certainly not one of them. In this respect at least, I wish we were more like the U.S.

Maybe then I could hang a flag out of my window.

And I suppose France never occupied Vietnam and still occupy a little place called French Guyana (or do you prefer Suriname) in South America? Or that the British once occupied half the world not too long ago and still have scattered possesions around the world? Or that Denmark has occupied the island of Greenland for quite some time? Or that more countries in Europe then I care to name have scattered possessions and colonies still? Frankly sir/madam, you're quite the hypocritic saying Europe is better than the US because Europe doesn't occupy lands like the US because Europe does. Look at a map of the world sometime, I think my point is quite clear: That you're no different than us in a lot of ways.

wasn't suriname a dutch colony?