NationStates Jolt Archive

its really unbelieveable this string of insolences from poland.
first they sneak into the EU, then get a hugh bunch of money for just joining, then they widen the split inside europe even wider when they joined americas side in the iraq war. next they think theyre a superpower and and speak insulting towards the old eu members.
then, a germany based organisation said they would try to get reparations for the 45 driving outs and expropriations. the german goverment said they wouldnt support these claims. case closed.
today the polish parliament decided to seek reparations towards germany cause they "have not received its due financial compensation or war damages". and that without a single dissent vote!

http://www.iht.com/articles/538365.html

this was the only english speaking article about it ive found. it seems there isnt any interest in idiotic claims towards germany. on the other hand, the (not supported) calls for reparations by the german organization towards poland is everywhere. biased at best.

what do you say?

damn polish

And at the same time they also demand that Berlin should strike down any claims by the organisations of the deported.

And at the same time they also demand that Berlin should strike down any claims by the organisations of the deported.
yes i forgot to mention that.
its really unbelieveable! :mp5:

for everyone who speaks german, take a look in here for some nice opinions:
http://www.n24.de/community/foren/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=nachrichten&Number=74232&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1

Poland... who's that again? ;)

I saw this news last night. Backstabbing bastards.
We should kick them out of the EU.

Poland... who's that again? ;)
Thats the place where your car goes to when it is stolen.

we shouldnt have accepted them in the EU in the first place. :mad:

we shouldnt have accepted them in the EU in the first place. :mad:
Yeah. But it's a little to late for that now.

Hmm, will Poland also be seeking reparations from Russia for the Katyn Massacre , and the other atrocities carried out by the soviet union in Poland?

Hmm, will Poland also be seeking reparations from Russia for the Katyn Massacre , and the other atrocities carried out by the soviet union in Poland?
No. Of course not. The Russians would just tell them to go f*ck themselves.

Yeah, tell all that to my friends family :D (90% of the family {civillians of course :D} killed by german soldiers and all their property stolen/destroyed). I get your point tho - that decision in the Sejm was just plain idiotic :rolleyes: (nope :D)

No. Of course not. The Russians would just tell them to go f*ck themselves.
Lets hope Germany does the same then;)

Lets hope Germany does the same then;)
We will. For all I care, Poland may rot in hell :p

We will.
Don't count on it.
Poland may rot in hell
Oh yeah.

Are you mad? Germany killed 1/5th of the entire Polish population! What bad thing have the poles done to you? Germans will forever be remembered as the cause of 2 world wars. Everytime i hear oh your german, ah WWI, WWII and besides they let the united states harbour in Germany during the GWII and keep medical bases and air force bases to luanch attacks into iraq!. Now some may say hey that was 60 years ago, but when something like that happens to your country it doesnt matter how long its been! And hey you cant blame the poles for being all that sneaky anyway, the old president was a communist psycho and supported the US and was a very manipulative man highly unliked in Poland, we've recently had new elections and i believe he's been ousted so there should be some good changes, besides spain supported the United States, no one bitched at them about it...

Don't count on it.

Oh yeah.
If our stupid idiots, calling themselves "politicians", decide to pay reparations to Poland after almost 60 years since the war ended,they *will* lose power. This would create a public uproar in Germany combined with growing right-wing tendencies.

Are you mad? Germany killed 1/5th of the entire Polish population! What bad thing have the poles done to you? Germans will forever be remembered as the cause of 2 world wars. Everytime i hear oh your german, ah WWI, WWII and besides they let the united states harbour in Germany during the GWII and keep medical bases and air force bases to luanch attacks into iraq!. Now some may say hey that was 60 years ago, but when something like that happens to your country it doesnt matter how long its been! And hey you cant blame the poles for being all that sneaky anyway, the old president was a communist psycho and supported the US and was a very manipulative man highly unliked in Poland, we've recently had new elections and i believe he's been ousted so there should be some good changes, besides spain supported the United States, no one bitched at them about it...
Of course we bitched about Spain. Their government got the result of their politics and lost power by a landslide. Granted, the lies about the terrorist attack in Madrid helped, but Aznar had his own grave prepared a while ago by following the US into an illegal war.

Of course we bitched about Spain. Their government got the result of their politics and lost power by a landslide. Granted, the lies about the terrorist attack in Madrid helped, but Aznar had his own grave prepared a while ago by following the US into an illegal war.
Wonder what people will say 60 years from now when the Iraqi Parliament votes to ask for reparations from the US and UK ;)

Ohhh look who's here? Fucking German bastards! Who do you think you are? You say about us like we were all the same - it is not fair - in the same way like I call you fucking nazi you sick fuck - on the other hand - I hate Germans, and you know why? Cause they are smart, when their asses are in warm bed, when the fighting comes along, they can only SNEAK like fucking snails and STAB YOU IN THE BACK, by attacking your country!

In your ass with oyur cars and money - it's the government, not us, besides, what thos sick nazi fucks did to as at WW2 is JUST A LITTLE when you compare it with this GEVERNMENTAL PROBLEMS....

Ok, now, when you understand something you fucking little prick siiting there and fucking yourself while watching Adolf - maybe you'll stop saying shit, eating shit, abd being shit - you fuckin; moron!

KILL FUCKING SHVABEN! :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Ohhh look who's here? Fucking German bastards! Who do you think you are? You say about us like we were all the same - it is not fair - in the same way like I call you fucking nazi you sick fuck - on the other hand - I hate Germans, and you know why? Cause they are smart, when their asses are in warm bed, when the fighting comes along, they can only SNEAK like fucking snails and STAB YOU IN THE BACK, by attacking your country!

In your ass with oyur cars and money - it's the government, not us, besides, what thos sick nazi fucks did to as at WW2 is JUST A LITTLE when you compare it with this GEVERNMENTAL PROBLEMS....

Ok, now, when you understand something you fucking little prick siiting there and fucking yourself while watching Adolf - maybe you'll stop saying shit, eating shit, abd being shit - you fuckin; moron!

KILL FUCKING SHVABEN! :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:
You, sir, need a brain.. roflmao.

Yeah, tell all that to my friends family :D (90% of the family {civillians of course :D} killed by german soldiers and all their property stolen/destroyed). I get your point tho - that decision in the Sejm was just plain idiotic :rolleyes:
you think this is different on the german side?
and what would you say if my family to had a county in lower silesia and all of them were killed except one person, and that from a polish mob?
fact is both sides could call for reparations, and lots of people died. heck, almost every country on this world can claim something against another country theyve been in war somewhere in history. but all of that is so long ago that there is barely anyone alive from this time, and both side can claim reparations and land.

what would you say if someone wants you to pay for something your grandfather has done?

Well the answer is staring all Germans in the face. Shine up the old boots and goose-step back into Poland. Ja?

Well the answer is staring all Germans in the face. Shine up the old boots and goose-step back into Poland. Ja?
The answer is to ignore the Polish government. They have no power to claim anything from Germany, lest they want to *cough* threaten us with military force *cackle*

Of course we bitched about Spain. Their government got the result of their politics and lost power by a landslide. Granted, the lies about the terrorist attack in Madrid helped, but Aznar had his own grave prepared a while ago by following the US into an illegal war.
5% is a landslide? :rolleyes: And to say that the reason Aznar lost was became of the war of liberation in Iraq is false, look at the polls leading up to the election during and after the war, the PP was usually ahead.

Wonder what people will say 60 years from now when the Iraqi Parliament votes to ask for reparations from the US and UK ;)

Yup, Nazi saved us allright! Heck, what's losing 60% of cultural/monumental/industrial wealth and 20% of populace? (add to that maaaaany years of trying to recover, which means - slowing your growth for the time...) We could've been part of the Reich! What a honour! Why did those goddamn Allies intervene?? Yeah, right.

Buehehe I need a brain? Say it to those nazi fucks - i don;t kill, i don't attack people's countries, homes - I DONT SAY that all of you are fucked up - just this sick bastard who created this topic in such a way and those who continued it in that way - the post earlier was specially written like that - those were insults, not my beliefs...so, like I said, the government is fucked up - like always in Poland - but - fuck off from people!

5% is a landslide? :rolleyes: And to say that the reason Aznar lost was became of the war of liberation in Iraq is false, look at the polls leading up to the election during and after the war, the PP was usually ahead.
There were massive protests against the war in Spain as were in all other European countries.

http://reason.com/links/links031704.shtml

"The PP was indeed projected to win a majority in the Spanish Parliament in all the major polls before the March 11 terrorist attacks, which killed over 200 Spaniards and injured more than 1,600. But they were also clearly, already, losing ground relative to their vote totals in 2000, a shift largely attributed to Prime Minister José María Aznar's support for a war in Iraq opposed by as many as 90 percent of Spaniards. The same polls that showed a likely PP victory also showed that over 60 percent of Spanish voters were uneasy with the prospect of the party, regarded even by some supporters as arrogant and unwilling to compromise with others in Parliament, securing an absolute majority. The PP's relatively strong—though still depressed—showing in May's municipal elections relied on the predominance in the public mind of the local, domestic economic issues that are the PP's unquestionable strength. With some 30 percent of Spanish voters polling undecided or refusing to give a preference as of early March, the PP advantage was already somewhat shaky."

Buehehe I need a brain? Say it to those nazi fucks - i don;t kill, i don't attack people's countrys, homes - I DONT SAY that all of you are fucked up - just this sick bastard who created this topic in such a way and those who continued it in that way - the post earlier was specially written like that - those were insults, not my beliefs...so, like I said, the government is fucked up - like always in Poland - but - fuck off from people!
You should learn to articulate yourself better, or you'll get banned from the forum.

Ok, now, when you understand
No. I don't realy understand alot of your post. Take some English lessons next time.

There were massive protests against the war in Spain as were in all other European countries.

http://reason.com/links/links031704.shtml

"The PP was indeed projected to win a majority in the Spanish Parliament in all the major polls before the March 11 terrorist attacks, which killed over 200 Spaniards and injured more than 1,600. But they were also clearly, already, losing ground relative to their vote totals in 2000, a shift largely attributed to Prime Minister José María Aznar's support for a war in Iraq opposed by as many as 90 percent of Spaniards. The same polls that showed a likely PP victory also showed that over 60 percent of Spanish voters were uneasy with the prospect of the party, regarded even by some supporters as arrogant and unwilling to compromise with others in Parliament, securing an absolute majority. The PP's relatively strong—though still depressed—showing in May's municipal elections relied on the predominance in the public mind of the local, domestic economic issues that are the PP's unquestionable strength. With some 30 percent of Spanish voters polling undecided or refusing to give a preference as of early March, the PP advantage was already somewhat shaky."
Exactly - the PP was leading even with the Iraq war and the massive protests. There were protests against the war in San Fransisco and New York, too.

Are you mad? Germany killed 1/5th of the entire Polish population! and polish mobs massacred 12 mil germans after the war was over. civilians!
What bad thing have the poles done to you? i guess you asked why poland was attacked in ww2 right? well, that was because poland refused to return danzig.
besides they let the united states harbour in Germany during the GWII and keep medical bases and air force bases to luanch attacks into iraq!. let me *promise* this to you: if the population had anything to say the americans would no longer have anything in germany. its the fking goverment!
Now some may say hey that was 60 years ago, but when something like that happens to your country it doesnt matter how long its been! oh really? thatll be interesting when every country who has ever been in a war calls for reparations against their opponents. poor italy! Rome covered almost all of europe and the middle east! or spain: they conquered whole south and middle america! or the napoleonic wars!
its the same logic right?
And hey you cant blame the poles for being all that sneaky anyway, the old president was a communist psycho and supported the US and was a very manipulative man highly unliked in Poland, lol youve got one of those kind too? ;)
[/quote] besides spain supported the United States, no one bitched at them about it...[/QUOTE]
your wrong here, we made fun of spain a lot. although the reaction was more irritation cause who would have thought theyd join the americans?!?

Exactly - the PP was leading even with the Iraq war and the massive protests. There were protests against the war in San Fransisco and New York, too.
And? The republicans may very well lose the elections. We will know in November and I hope that Bush will get the kick in the ass he deserves.

you think this is different on the german side?
and what would you say if my family to had a county in lower silesia and all of them were killed except one person, and that from a polish mob?
fact is both sides could call for reparations, and lots of people died. heck, almost every country on this world can claim something against another country theyve been in war somewhere in history. but all of that is so long ago that there is barely anyone alive from this time, and both side can claim reparations and land.


Well, did I miss something, or was Germany the aggressor? You kinda... realize, that if you attack someone, and that someone isn't Jesus, he's gonna fight back? That goes further - when Werhmacht was fleeing from the polish territory, they've been destroying all the factories and stealing all possible goods and such to prevent them being used lateron against them. So it kinda hurt the economy.


what would you say if someone wants you to pay for something your grandfather has done?

Well... if like, your grandfather stole everything from mine, and you're rich because of that, and I'm poor because of that (or vice versa)... u get my meaning?

Buehehe I need a brain?
Yeah, you do :D

Okay, now after we had some very funny but also very stupid replies (I´m looking at that Polish who made the REALLY clever move to call all Germans NAZIs. Thank you very much - one of my neighbours is a GERMAN Jew who fled the place in the 1930ties and now says he´s too old to return to his "old beloved home" ( <- hint: he means Germany) - I bet he will really appreciate your comment ... ).

General Considerations and Voice of Reason:

1. In a treaty from 1953 Germany and Poland agreed to never ever change the status of the German-Polish border again

2. The same treaty was confirmed in the 2+4 negotiations shortly after the German re-unification.

3. The German government - for years - tries to subdue the so called "Vertreibenenverbande" (those German groups trying to get their former property in Poland and the Czech Republic bakc), but technically can´t do so. They can´t because Germany is sort of a liberal legislative state nation where groups just can´t be banned because they make certain demands. You get the idea, censorship and all.

4. Poland NEVER recognized the suffering Germans who settled in Poland during the war and where later kicked out or - as already mentioned - murderd by POLISH citizens. Should those people demand reparations from Poland? I´d day they should - if Poland insists on reparations from Germany.

5. Reparations demanded by Poland are just ridiculous. Warsaw demands THIRTY BILLIONS. That´s:

30.000.000.000

Yes, for ONE town. I recently read Germany has a total budget of 270 something billion. Even if they wanted to pay, they´d never be able to.

6. Name me ONE reason why today´s Germans should pay anything to Poland today. Can German tax-payers today made be responsible for what their ancestors did? If you insist on this, you´re a damn nazi. Yes, you are, because you condem people for being what they are and therefore exploit them.

7. The Polish GOVERNMENT already said this (basically):

"We agreed with the Germans never to make such claims - Pacta sunt servanda!"

8. If they demand money from Germany, they´d also ask the Russians for cash - afterall Stalin raped Poland twice.

9. Germans and the Polish are neighbours and have to live next to each other. Unlike most Polish, Germans are willing to (literally) "take it up the ass" for their own history (even if they weren´t involved) and rarley if never bitch about what evils has been done to them - like turning Dresden into glass - which certainly was a atrocity, whatever side you turn it. The Germans today feel responsible to keep the memory alive, that´s all they can and that´s all they should be supposed to do.

I got no ill feelings for the Germans today, they performed admirably, especially when it came to coming to terms with their own past (and rebuilding their nation a couple of times). A lot of us out there could learn from them.

I say: Forget about that crap, Poland grow up and better be a good neighbour. By trying to reap money from the Gerries today you just make yourself look like greedy little dicks who can´t do anything on their own effort.

Think about it.

No. I don't realy understand alot of your post. Take some English lessons next time.

HAHAH You are Nazi, so you can speak nazi only - and what is nazi - first shot than talk...

PS. You are moron ;)

Buehehe I need a brain?
Yeah. You realy do. Try Ebay.

HAHAH You are Nazi, so you can speak nazi only - and what is nazi - first shot than talk...

PS. You are moron ;)
You baffle me with your wit. :rolleyes: Idiot.

Yup, Nazi saved us allright! Heck, what's losing 60% of cultural/monumental/industrial wealth and 20% of populace? (add to that maaaaany years of trying to recover, which means - slowing your growth for the time...) We could've been part of the Reich! What a honour! Why did those goddamn Allies intervene?? Yeah, right.
Yeah it was a good job those allies intervened, pity they abandoned you to the Soviet Union eh?
I dont think there are any Nazis arguing in this topic, just people a little confused as to why the Polish Government would seek reparations for something that happened 60 years ago.
Perhaps Gigatron would like to lobby his government to seek reparations from the UK for the firebombing of Dresden? ;)

its really unbelieveable this string of insolences from poland.
first they sneak into the EU, then get a hugh bunch of money for just joining, then they widen the split inside europe even wider when they joined americas side in the iraq war. next they think theyre a superpower and and speak insulting towards the old eu members.
then, a germany based organisation said they would try to get reparations for the 45 driving outs and expropriations. the german goverment said they wouldnt support these claims. case closed.
today the polish parliament decided to seek reparations towards germany cause they "have not received its due financial compensation or war damages". and that without a single dissent vote!

http://www.iht.com/articles/538365.html

this was the only english speaking article about it ive found. it seems there isnt any interest in idiotic claims towards germany. on the other hand, the (not supported) calls for reparations by the german organization towards poland is everywhere. biased at best.

what do you say?


Wow! How dare they act like a sovereign nation instead of marching lock-step (or is it goose-step) with their German and French masters.

Well... if like, your grandfather stole everything from mine, and you're rich because of that, and I'm poor because of that (or vice versa)... u get my meaning?
I strongly doubt that WW2 was the reason why Poland is still not more than it could possibly be. I think the following years of Soviet influence and communism were the main factors. This also hindered development of East Germany greatly (where I live) to the point that we have probably similar problems in East Germany here as Poland has - lack of jobs, poor citizens who cannot afford much outside the norm, weak economy. WW2 caused a lot of damage to Germany - many many cities were bombed to the ground. It was the last 60 years during which the German people in the West at loeast, rebuilt a lot of the damage that was done. That Poland did not rebuild its country, is not Germany's fault.

Perhaps Gigatron would like to lobby his government to seek reparations from the UK for the firebombing of Dresden?

No need to do so. There is a "Dresden Fund" in the UK which donated a lot of money to the reconstruction of old Dresden buildings. IIRC the son of a former RAF pilot who took part in the attack made a part of the tower or the bell of the destroyed "Frauenkirche", obviously a pretty nice building destroyed in the war.

Not to mention a damn nice gesture :)

Wow! How dare they act like a sovereign nation instead of marching lock-step (or is it goose-step) with their German and French masters.
For some reason I doubt that you've understood what this is about.

Well... if like, your grandfather stole everything from mine, and you're rich because of that, and I'm poor because of that (or vice versa)... u get my meaning?

--- from my last post. I find that my anwer to the "hey, it happend 60 years ago!" crap :D

dont think there are any Nazis arguing in this topic

I'm kinda not stupid enough to not notice that :D

And for ur information - i don't care bout the reperations at all, nobody's ever gonna pay anyone at all anyway, so love&peace poland&germany ;)

No need to do so. There is a "Dresden Fund" in the UK which donated a lot of money to the reconstruction of old Dresden buildings. IIRC the son of a former RAF pilot who took part in the attack made a part of the tower or the bell of the destroyed "Frauenkirche", obviously a pretty nice building destroyed in the war.

Not to mention a damn nice gesture :)
Yeah, thanks for that. The "Frauenkirche" is one of the main buildings of Dresden. Seeing it rebuilt with the help of British people is reassuring that old hate has since been turned into friendship - even if it is not as good yet as it could be ;)

That Poland did not rebuild its country, is not Germany's fault.

The problem is, the economic power to try and rebuild was demolished in the WW2. Also, I don't negate the fact that being the CCCPs satelite weakened Poland :D

Well, did I miss something, or was Germany the aggressor? You kinda... realize, that if you attack someone, and that someone isn't Jesus, he's gonna fight back? of cause they do, and from what ive read, the poland campaign had more casualties than the Battle of France. so what do you mean with that?
That goes further - when Werhmacht was fleeing from the polish territory, they've been destroying all the factories and stealing all possible goods and such to prevent them being used lateron against them. So it kinda hurt the economy. ok we can only guess what they did when they retreated from poland, but i guess your right.

Well... if like, your grandfather stole everything from mine, and you're rich because of that, and I'm poor because of that (or vice versa)... u get my meaning? no. then my grandfather did this, and thats it.
and in your logic you think that the american bombers left much of germany standing, and thats wrong. the economical recovery of germany came around 1955 when the country was rebuilded, not from captured polish factorys right after the war. so to imply that poland had anything to do with the state of the german country today is simply not true.

its really unbelieveable this string of insolences from poland.
first they sneak into the EU, then get a hugh bunch of money for just joining, then they widen the split inside europe even wider when they joined americas side in the iraq war. next they think theyre a superpower and and speak insulting towards the old eu members.
then, a germany based organisation said they would try to get reparations for the 45 driving outs and expropriations. the german goverment said they wouldnt support these claims. case closed.
today the polish parliament decided to seek reparations towards germany cause they "have not received its due financial compensation or war damages". and that without a single dissent vote!

http://www.iht.com/articles/538365.html

this was the only english speaking article about it ive found. it seems there isnt any interest in idiotic claims towards germany. on the other hand, the (not supported) calls for reparations by the german organization towards poland is everywhere. biased at best.

what do you say?



Good on the Poles! ... and please, the person who wrote this should try to write in correct English.

of cause they do, and from what ive read, the poland campaign had more casualties than the Battle of France. so what do you mean with that?
I mean that attacking someone and then getting hit by that someone's couterattack doesn't make you a victim of that somebody's violence :D In a situation like that, you provoked that someone :D


ok we can only guess what they did when they retreated from poland, but i guess your right.
Yeah, I am. No hard feelings tho :D


no. then my grandfather did this, and thats it.
nc


and in your logic you think that the american bombers left much of germany standing, and thats wrong. the economical recovery of germany came around 1955 when the country was rebuilded, not from captured polish factorys right after the war. so to imply that poland had anything to do with the state of the german country today is simply not true.

The thing about the bombers - well, weren't that Germany provoking that by causing war? :D

About the rebuilding - I'm not saying that those stolen goods had a gigantic significance in rebuilding. I'm just saying, that Poland has them -> *puff WW2* -> Poland doesn't have them! (C) by Adolf Copperfield :D

I mean that attacking someone and then getting hit by that someone's couterattack doesn't make you a victim of that somebody's violence :D In a situation like that, you provoked that someone :D we disagree here. i think it makes both sides to victims of each other, and victims can complain. but they shouldnt try to punish the grandchildren. i like the russian approach to this: both sides did terrible things, and its best to not talk or think about it. future is what matters, not the past.

The thing about the bombers - well, weren't that Germany provoking that by causing war? :D and that justifies terrorbombings and killing of civilians?!? most brits (and they did the most terror bombings) dont think so and thats why theyre respected.
and before i hear complains, i dont claim that germany was nice, quite the opposite. i just say the other sides did terrible things too, and thats must be recognized too.

About the rebuilding - I'm not saying that those stolen goods had a gigantic significance in rebuilding. I'm just saying, that Poland has them -> *puff WW2* -> Poland doesn't have them! Adolf Copperfield :D
yeah true for all countrys involved. except america. :(

The thing about the bombers - well, weren't that Germany provoking that by causing war?
You seem to believe that Germany was the sole reason why WW2 happened or that the German people today are the reason why Poland has economic problems today. You are wrong though. Hitler was not voted into power by the German people and the people here during the 1930s and 1940s were part of a brainwashed nationalist society where any dissent was punished with death. As such, I think holding the entire German nation today responsible for what happened in WW2 is shortsighted and wrong. Poland may sue Hitler if they want. I had nothing to do with WW2 and if I had any power to say anything, I'd tell the Poles that Germany today is not the Germany that fought in WW2 and caused a lot of suffering. Our country was split into 4 zones and eventually reunited. Mostpeople here are sorry for what happened 60 years ago, but we are humans without the power to change the past. I will not allow our government today, to cause suffering for the German people by succumbing to Polish demands which would literally bankrupt the nation.

we disagree here. i think it makes both sides to victims of each other, and victims can complain. but they shouldnt try to punish the grandchildren. i like the russian approach to this: both sides did terrible things, and its best to not talk or think about it. future is what matters, not the past.

So that end the discussion there, ther's no point in talking about moral opinions you know (I mean, I'm not paid for making myself enemies, I'm no lawyer ;p).

and that justifies terrorbombings and killing of civilians?!? most brits (and they did the most terror bombings) dont think so and thats why theyre respected.
No. But it's the same for the other side. Does Himmlers opinion on Warsaw justify it's total (I mean TOTAL - not quite more than rubbish left) annihilation?


and before i hear complains, i dont claim that germany was nice, quite the opposite. i just say the other sides did terrible things too, and thats must be recognized too.
I think that the other side wouldn't do those terrible things if Germany wouldn't attack them.


yeah true for all countrys involved. except america. :(

True, that's the sad part.


Anyway, my whole opinion goes like this:

We all know that, justified or not, Germany can't and won't pay Poland the reperation, so let's kiss and make up :fluffle:

Plus, this vote in Sejm... it missed it's point. They aren't trying to help Poland, they perfectly know that can't be done in that way. What must be realised is, the Sejm is now led by the SLD - the-by-far-most-disliked-political-party-in-Poland. No wonder they want to try to look patriotic... it's all an act in the end. Good thing the society knows better (yeah, I checked)

For some reason I doubt that you've understood what this is about.
OOoooh. Gee, you are sooo superior. OF COURSE you know what is best for Poland. how silly of me to question you.

I will not allow our government today, to cause suffering for the German people by succumbing to Polish demands which would literally bankrupt the nation.

Noone's asking you to. Except a bunch of stupid politicians that try to keep themselves in power, but you shouldn't care bout that. They'll be gone to hell at the next vote, 100% :p

Wonder what people will say 60 years from now when the Iraqi Parliament votes to ask for reparations from the US and UK ;)
Maybe they'll vote to ask for reparations from france and russia for supporting the tyrant hussein.

PS, I don't now, nor did I ever support the Iraq war. Still, saddam was a scumbag and europe was more than happy to do business with him. Oil for food program abuses anyone?

Maybe they'll vote to ask for reparations from france and russia for supporting the tyrant hussein.

PS, I don't now, nor did I ever support the Iraq war. Still, saddam was a scumbag and europe was more than happy to do business with him. Oil for food program abuses anyone?
Lets not forget who brought Saddam to power in the first place *cough* USA *cough*

Maybe they'll vote to ask for reparations from france and russia for supporting the tyrant hussein.

PS, I don't now, nor did I ever support the Iraq war. Still, saddam was a scumbag and europe was more than happy to do business with him. Oil for food program abuses anyone?

EVERYONE was doing business with him and you might consider that kost governments CAN´T control the business in their nation. So it´s sort of pointless to acuse a NATION because a corporation based in that nation does a ILLEGAL deal with Saddam. Not to mention a ton of European corps made LEGAL deals with Iraq and still do and probably will do so in the future.

Oookey... I'll give you a brief info on how things look here in Poland:

The society thinks that a reperation would be a good thing (hey - any free cash is :D), but doesn't try to force it. What for? Germany CAN'T pay, so why bother to attack international relations? Anyway, germans are generally disliked in Poland. At least lately. Mostly because of many... let's say 'overuses' :D in Poland made mostly by Germans (i can explain what i mean if u want) Stereotypes, I know. But many people that lost EVERYTHING to Werhmacht went berserk when they heard 'bout the Prussian Claims Society :D.

But I think that the most importat fact is that the society means "Hey, we're demolished - mentally and economicly - by the war you caused, so would you mind to understand we try to get every fund possible?"

The government, sadly, changes 'trying to get the best deals on everything' to 'trying to force everything we want weeee'... But that's an disliked activity, even here in Poland. They try to act patriotic (that's a goddamn vote-making theatre...) to get votes, and that's the reason they'll get none
:sniper:

Oookey... I'll give you a brief info on how things look here in Poland:

The society thinks that a reperation would be a good thing (hey - any free cash is :D), but doesn't try to force it. What for? Germany CAN'T pay, so why bother to attack international relations? Anyway, germans are generally disliked in Poland. At least lately. Mostly because of many... let's say 'overuses' :D in Poland made mostly by Germans (i can explain what i mean if u want) Stereotypes, I know. But many people that lost EVERYTHING to Werhmacht went berserk when they heard 'bout the Prussian Claims Society :D.

But I think that the most importat fact is that the society means "Hey, we're demolished - mentally and economicly - by the war you caused, so would you mind to understand we try to get every fund possible?"

The government, sadly, changes 'trying to get the best deals on everything' to 'trying to force everything we want weeee'... But that's an disliked activity, even here in Poland. They try to act patriotic (that's a goddamn vote-making theatre...) to get votes, and that's the reason they'll get none
:sniper:
The difference is that your government is the representation of the people, whereas our "Prussian Claims Society" is private and not backed by the government. They cannot make any claims, unless some law in Poland allows it, which is not the case. Germany will never reclaim anything from Poland. We're past that and do not want to strain our relations. But the claims from the Polish government now are somewhat irritating and will not make friends here.

Heheheh :D Trust me, the government didn't make any friends in Poland either by making such claims :D

The difference is that your government is the representation of the people

I kinda feel you would be laught at if you said something like that to a Pole :D

Next time our gov fucks something up, just say "the Polish government is stupid and irritating", rather than "the Polish are stupid and irritating". You'll make friends in Poland, trust me :D. They don't like you if you call them stupid. If you call their government stupid, they'll agree with you.

Oookey... I'll give you a brief info on how things look here in Poland:

The society thinks that a reperation would be a good thing (hey - any free cash is :D), but doesn't try to force it. What for? Germany CAN'T pay, so why bother to attack international relations? Anyway, germans are generally disliked in Poland. At least lately. Mostly because of many... let's say 'overuses' :D in Poland made mostly by Germans (i can explain what i mean if u want) Stereotypes, I know. But many people that lost EVERYTHING to Werhmacht went berserk when they heard 'bout the Prussian Claims Society :D.


Please elaborate. I DO understand why people who suffered from the Germans in the past don´t like them - that´s just natural. But I think a GOOD relation between those two nations will be FAR more valubale than a one-time payment which will ruin relations forever, especially as the current young/ working generation in Germany will get angry as THEY will have to pay for it and they did nothing wrong. They won´t understand why they should pay.

-snip-
ok then ill give you a brief view about the german perspective about it. and i dont claim this sacred truth, its more of a opinion.

poland isnt liked at all and that has always been like this. "visit poland! your car is already there" and that stuff. and many are still pissed that poland didt even admit what happened after ww2 when we, as a nation fully stand up to everything that happened.
when the EU was enlarged (so not only poland) i only heard negative voices about it. the politicans knew why they didnt ask the population. when poland sided with america there was wide spread irritation about it. the country joined the EU just month before, and then has the guts to side with america so openly? after all, france and germany are the main powers and such a bold act was a slap in their face. next was the attitude after the iraq war. it appeared to polish policy had changed from asking to demanding things and backing america up at every possible opportunity.
next was the "Preußische Treuhand" case. i heard different opinions here, 50 pro/50 con. i think that the claims are justified and it would be a nice change for once. but poland refused (in a not-very-nice manner!), our goverment too, so thats it, case closed.
but now polands *goverment* demands a incredible sum and ignoring several agreements. everyone i told it thought i was joking, and then is extremly pissed and says how wrong it was to let poland into the EU.
i think you underestimate this a bit, cause this will worsen the relation *a lot* !

Fine, I'll explain what i meant. On a living, breathing example.

A German guy named Lorenz Kreitmayr owns a airplane-making company called Remos. He then creates a marionette company - Remos Polska - in Poland. Basically - Remos Polska builds the airplanes. Those are then transported to
Germany, where Remos sells them. The Poles get jobs and Remos gets cheap labor. Yet... Kreitmayr mostly pays wages, but doesn't pay debts that he made 'throught' Remos Polska. The 'mostly' part about wages... Sometimes he doesn't pay. Why should he? He can fire those that complain. How can they pay for trials if they're jobless? And they won't get another job easily. So they don't complain. When Kreitmayr can't get any more money because of the debt - he just abandons Remos Polska. And - possibly - creates another marionette company and begins to suck money once more.

Legal? Theoretically - yes. Won't make you a liked person tho. There are many Germans (not only them) doing so in Poland. Stereotypes are born like that.

About the post above - stereotypes rock, no? Anyway I'd like to assure you that the society in Poland is strongly against the US :D:D:D (and against anything the gov would do)

Q - how do you get a one-armed polok out of a tree?
A - Waive.



Q - how do you get a one-armed german out of a tree?
A - Shout 'Sieg Heil'

Anyway I'd like to assure you that the society in Poland is strongly against the US :D:D:D (and against anything the gov would do)
At least something good :p
Anyways... it shows again how governments can - in dictatorship fashion - ignore their electorate and do whatever they want. It is a sad world, but we do not live in democracies. The governments generally do what they need to do to stay in power and get richer from pensions.

Q - how do you get a one-armed polok out of a tree?
A - Waive.



Q - how do you get a one-armed german out of a tree?
A - Shout 'Sieg Heil'
Even if I was one-armed, you'd not get me out of a tree that easily. Although this might in the future be the case, should people insist that all Germans have to be that way.

Q - how do you get a one-armed polok out of a tree?
A - Waive.



Q - how do you get a one-armed german out of a tree?
A - Shout 'Sieg Heil'

Now both of those comments were totally uncalled for. Not to mention "polok" or as you probably tried to say "polak" is a racial slur, a thing you should really abstain from.

Back to topic: One thing which DID irritate me is (but it could be the Czech Republic we´re now speaking off): People demanded a law to keep Germans from buying land in Poland (descendants of Germans who had big country estates in Poland now try to "buy back" the country estates of their grandparents, etc.). What the hell? I mean:

Rich foreigners come to your place to BUY a old defaced building and will spend a hughe amount of cash on (probably) local craftsmen and services to rebuilt that place so they can move in. What´s wrong with it?

Yeah. Since '89 in Poland there hasn't been a single government that the society approved in the end. As long as Polish government doesn't represent the society - it doesn't. Many ppl claim that they would personally thank anyone who would care to terrorist-strike on the Sejm. Duh! The guy would be a national hero :D

Bout buying back - that sounds like Samoobrona :D

thats not so much "german"... thats corporations.
the corps here say work for less and less money or we will close the factory and go to china, poland, whatever. and a lot already did, the unemployment rate is around 15-20% and rising.
its the corporations that causing the problems, not a specific country. if we somehow get the corporations under control of the goverments again we would solve a lot of problems. those you described and what i described too.

Yes, I do understand. But that isn't that much of a problem with corporations. You see... they have reputations that they must protect. They don't create marionette companies which suck money out of various funds and they don't cheat on people. Using cheaper labor is - in my eyes - a good thing. The problem are the private investors and small-to-medium company owners. And - in Poland - most of the foreign ones are German. And they do things like described in the example above. All the time.

Germany did not start World War 1. Serbia did. Germany was merely one of the powers. EVERY nation was at each others throats when Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. Don't forget that.

Also, Poland was, at one time, a loyal and important part of... guess what.... GERMANY (And before that, Prussia). The Poles were considered loyal Germany, or Ostdeutschers (East Germans). Polish National sentiment only began to rise because a council in France said that Poles should be given national territory. Not to mention, by the way, that in 1917, during the war, Germany gave Poland independence, along with Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, and the Ukraine.

Yeah. Since '89 in Poland there hasn't been a single government that the society approved in the end. As long as Polish government doesn't represent the society - it doesn't. Many ppl claim that they would personally thank anyone who would care to terrorist-strike on the Sejm. Duh! The guy would be a national hero :D

Bout buying back - that sounds like Samoobrona :D
hehe interesting. the same can be said about the current german goverment. many agree with their foreign policy, but their in-country politic is disastrous. last poll the SPD got 16%. thats the current goverment party!!! :D
thats what you get when your a social party and make a politic like a ultra conservative, anti-socialist party. + ruin the economy even more with idiotic laws and tax raises. :sniper:

you know the saying "put them all in a bag and beat it with a stick. youll always hit the right one" ?
("Alle im Sack packn und mittm Knüppel druff. Triffst immer den richtigen")

Heheh last poll the SLD got less then 10% ;)
And i like that saying of yours ;)

Heheh last poll the SLD got less then 10% ;)
And i like that saying of yours ;)
Btw just seen in our news that the Polish government has distanced itself from the claims. It looks like - at least for now - this is off the table. Though, it does show that there are still issues that are not resolved yet.

Yup. But it would be a boring world if there were no not resolved issues, no? Guess the gov noticed that they turned out to be morons. Again.

"Chcieli dobrze, a wyszło jak zwykle." - "They wanted to do good, but did as always."

next they think theyre a superpower and and speak insulting towards the old eu members.
Because only the old members like France should be allowed to insult others....
Sure.

ok then ill give you a brief view about the german perspective about it. and i dont claim this sacred truth, its more of a opinion.

.... when poland sided with america there was wide spread irritation about it. the country joined the EU just month before, and then has the guts to side with america so openly? after all, france and germany are the main powers and such a bold act was a slap in their face. !

Gee, I thought it was an economic union - not a political one. How frustrating it must be for you French and Germans to find out that Poland is not going to be your political lapdog. I guess France and Germany will have to take over Europe the old fashioned way.

Maybe you oughta get them some obediance training. Those bad bad Poles.

(Just what is the correct term for polish citizens? Poles? Polaks? Polish Europeans? Sorry Citizens of Poland, both one and two armed, for the earlier slight)

Gee, I thought it was an economic union - not a political one. How frustrating it must be for you French and Germans to find out that Poland is not going to be your political lapdog. I guess France and Germany will have to take over Europe the old fashioned way.

Maybe you oughta get them some obediance training. Those bad bad Poles.

(Just what is the correct term for polish citizens? Poles? Polaks? Polish Europeans? Sorry Citizens of Poland, both one and two armed, for the earlier slight)
Good question. And what is it of US citizens? USians? United Statespeople? Users? USaks? USes? USish?

Good question. And what is it of US citizens? USians? United Statespeople? Users? USaks? USes? USish?
In this particular case only the name moron would do.

Poland has a right to demand reparations from Germany. The Germans murdered millions of their citizens, and raped their nation of its resources. Many, many Germans who supported Hitler are still alive, and this makes the case for Poland all the more stronger.

You narrow-minded American pigs...

The correct term is Poles, although if you call us Polaks, we won't mind much...

And the Poles killed millions of German civilians just after WW2. Remember Danzig, Koenigsberg, Breslau... basically all of Silesia, East Prussia, and West Prussia.

Don't forget, that for over 100 years, you were loyal Ostdeutschers.

And the Poles killed millions of German civilians just after WW2. Remember Danzig, Koenigsberg, Breslau... basically all of Silesia, East Prussia, and West Prussia.

Don't forget, that for over 100 years, you were loyal Ostdeutschers.

Correction. Poland was part of Prussia, as well as of Austria/Austria-Hungary and Russia between 1795 and 1918, yes. But the fact Poles opposed the 'occupant' as much as they could makes them hardly loyal (they mostly opposed the forced germanisation {forced germanisation (TM) by Otto von Bismarck} and russification of the populace). And I disagree this sentence:

Polish National sentiment only began to rise because a council in France said that Poles should be given national territory.
Yeah, but France (Bonaparte to be exact) made that statement only a few years after Prussia and Co. have taken Poland. Hardly enough to transform patriots opposing the partitioning of Poland into "loyal Ostdeutschers". And they DID create a lil Duchy of Warsaw :D:D:D

Anyway, this isn't and should be no 19th century historical thread, tho we can make one later :D

Poland has a right to demand reparations from Germany. The Germans murdered millions of their citizens, and raped their nation of its resources. Many, many Germans who supported Hitler are still alive, and this makes the case for Poland all the more stronger.
No.

What I like about the Polish (Poles probably isn't good English right?)

-The Polish liberated my home town and the whole region in WW II.


What I do not like:
-They are head up the ass conservative Roman Catholics. Eugh.

I saw this news last night. Backstabbing bastards.
We should kick them out of the EU.
Calm down. The parliament decision is legally not binding. The polish government has declared that it is not going to demand reparations.
BTW, Poland has got them already. I just want to stress that Germany lost a third of its territory (which was inhabited by 12 million Germans before they were "moved" during the biggest campaign of ethnic cleanising in human history. A camaign conducted by Stalin - and Poland benefited from it). So: should we estimate the value of this land - one of the most furtile land in Europe and to demand compensation for that loss. That would more than outweigh any demands by Poland. And the polish government knows that. And that is the reason why it is seeing that as an non-issue.

Poland has a right to demand reparations from Germany. The Germans murdered millions of their citizens, and raped their nation of its resources. Many, many Germans who supported Hitler are still alive, and this makes the case for Poland all the more stronger.
You are wrong. Poland received a third of the German territory as reparation. Do you want to estimate the value of that land. Besides of the fact that Poland has given up legally binding any demands for reparation. In return Germany recognized the border. The Polish parliament brings this deal into question. I`m pleased that the Polish government has denounced this nationalism and has declared that it is not seeking reparations. That would be in violation of the 1990 treaty between Poland and Germany about the final questions resulting out of World War II. Pacta sunt servanda - treaties need to be kept. That is also the case for Poland. Otherwise it could face counter-claims for ethnic cleansing of 12 million Germans. Hundreds of thousands died during that by the way.
It is not justifiable what the polish parliament has done. It shows the problem of high nationalism in Eastern Europe. And it was nationalism which led Europe into desaster. Poland needs to act responsible towards its neighbours. Both towards Germany and Russia.
It shouldn´t do mischief in that respect. It has to make a choice. Either ally itself with the West - that incluedes Germany or with Russia. Doing neither of that would be VERY STUPID for the Polish national interests.
I´m glad that the Polish government decided to improve relations with Germany and to be part of Europe. But that means to act accordingly. The Polish government understood that. Unfortunately the parliament hasn´t got that. Though due to the fact that the decision is legally not binding and the Polish government has stated not to demand reparations I consider the decision irrelevant.

You are wrong. Poland received a third of the German territory as reparation. Do you want to estimate the value of that land. Besides of the fact that Poland has given up legally binding any demands for reparation. In return Germany recognized the border. The Polish parliament brings this deal into question. I`m pleased that the Polish government has denounced this nationalism and has declared that it is not seeking reparations. That would be in violation of the 1990 treaty between Poland and Germany about the final questions resulting out of World War II. Pacta sunt servanda - treaties need to be kept. That is also the case for Poland. Otherwise it could face counter-claims for ethnic cleansing of 12 million Germans. Hundreds of thousands died during that by the way.
It is not justifiable what the polish parliament has done. It shows the problem of high nationalism in Eastern Europe. And it was nationalism which led Europe into desaster. Poland needs to act responsible towards its neighbours. Both towards Germany and Russia.
It shouldn´t do mischief in that respect. It has to make a choice. Either ally itself with the West - that incluedes Germany or with Russia. Doing neither of that would be VERY STUPID for the Polish national interests.
I´m glad that the Polish government decided to improve relations with Germany and to be part of Europe. But that means to act accordingly. The Polish government understood that. Unfortunately the parliament hasn´t got that. Though due to the fact that the decision is legally not binding and the Polish government has stated not to demand reparations I consider the decision irrelevant.
It does not negate the fact that it is only right for Poland to demand reparations. What the Germans did was possibly the single worst act iof murder and rape committed against a single nation.

It does not negate the fact that it is only right for Poland to demand reparations. What the Germans did was possibly the single worst act iof murder and rape committed against a single nation.
60 years after the war ended and 14 years since there have been diplomatic agreements that nobody will demand anything anymore, Poland has no right to demand anything from Germany.

It does not negate the fact that it is only right for Poland to demand reparations. What the Germans did was possibly the single worst act iof murder and rape committed against a single nation.
Poland has renounced any demands for compensation in the '50's and '70's.
Germany was their main supporter for EU membership. If this is their way of repaying all the support they have gotten not to mention the billions they got from Brussels. Germany beeing the main contributor, I say to hell with them. If they want reparations they will have to return our eastern terratories first.

It does not negate the fact that it is only right for Poland to demand reparations. What the Germans did was possibly the single worst act iof murder and rape committed against a single nation.
You do a big mistake: you mistake the Poles with the Jews.
Poland has received a lot of territory for it. That was a reparation.
It has signed a treaty and it is bound to it - no reparation in exchange for the recognition of the border (and the fact that 12 million Germans were stolen their homes and many hundred thousands were killed): Pacta sunt servanda. That is also the position of the Polish government which is smarter than you.
And you should better not comment to it since you don´t know the treaties and negotiations between Germany and Poland about this issue.
And you could ask the Koreans about Japan in that respect. Japan occupied Korea from 1910-1945. Japan of course never paid reparations (or gave away territory to it as reparation) and did not even apologize for it.
And Japan will never do so. You should better not side against the second or third strongest economic power of the world if you want an alliance with it.
The consequence would be the a Franco-German-Russian alliance.
I don´t think the US policy would adopt such an hostile position towards Germany. It would be very stupid and would make it impossible to bridge the differences which occured in the Iraq dispute.
I don´t want such a development. But if you would do that it would be the end of the american-german alliance.

You do a big mistake: you mistake the Poles with the Jews.
The Holocaust, however, included far more people than Jews. It included Slavs, political dissidents, Catholics, and a whole bunch of other people. Hitler dreamed of a world, actually, where everyone that wasn't German was either dead or enslaved.
Poland has received a lot of territory for it. That was a reparation.
It has signed a treaty and it is bound to it - no reparation in exchange for the recognition of the border (and the fact that 12 million Germans were stolen their homes and many hundred thousands were killed): Pacta sunt servanda. That is also the position of the Polish government which is smarter than you.
So, they get a lot of land, but no way to keep their new constituents alive. It sounds more like a Soviet to garner land, if you ask me. They were the expansionists, not the Poles. The Poles deserve cash awards.
And you could ask the Koreans about Japan in that respect. Japan occupied Korea from 1910-1945. Japan of course never paid reparations (or gave away territory to it as reparation) and did not even apologize for it.
And Japan will never do so. You should better not side against the second or third strongest economic power of the world if you want an alliance with it.
The Koreans were not systematically raped and murdered by the Japanese in the same way the Germans did it to the Poles. The Japanese, however, were actively involved in trying to destroy not just China the country, but everything Chinese, as was shown in the infamous rape of Nanking. They deserve to pay the Chinese reparations. Screw alliances, as they have nothing to do with what's right.
In hindsight, a unified Japan and Germany worked out. But if I were the Allies, I'd leave Germany and Japan as occupied zones forever and ever. They have reared their ugly head of agression for too long. Thankfully, they don't anymore. But they deserve to pay for their wrongs. Never in the history of humanity have two nations gotten away with so much theft, rape, and murder. It is disgusting.

Never in the history of humanity have two nations gotten away with so much theft, rape, and murder. It is disgusting.
You totally forget the United States of America.

You totally forget the United States of America.
Does the US have plans to catagorically kill much of the world's population, like the Germans and the Japanese did?

Does the US have plans to catagorically kill much of the world's population, like the Germans and the Japanese did?
Let's say that's a rhetorical question... :p

Does the US have plans to catagorically kill much of the world's population, like the Germans and the Japanese did?
I have no idea. Alas, it wasnt the Germans who wanted to kill many people. It was Hitler. Please make a distinction between modern Germany and Hitler.

I have no idea. Alas, it wasnt the Germans who wanted to kill many people. It was Hitler. Please make a distinction between modern Germany and Hitler.
While modern Germany has changed, fascist Germany was a mirror image of Hitler. I see you live in Dresden. I'm glad. You're living in the spot where humanity had its greatest victory over German murderers. Take that as you wish, I'm just telling you my perception on it.

The Holocaust, however, included far more people than Jews. It included Slavs, political dissidents, Catholics, and a whole bunch of other people. Hitler dreamed of a world, actually, where everyone that wasn't German was either dead or enslaved..
Well, the Holocaust mainly included jews - that is why the jews are rejecting other groups to claim to be part of it. Except the gypsies they were the only group who were intended to be eliminated.
The catholics weren´t. Hitler himself was catholic by the way. And he was Austrian.

The Koreans were not systematically raped and murdered by the Japanese in the same way the Germans did it to the Poles. .
The Koreans would tell you otherwise.
The Japanese, however, were actively involved in trying to destroy not just China the country, but everything Chinese, as was shown in the infamous rape of Nanking. They deserve to pay the Chinese reparations. Screw alliances, as they have nothing to do with what's right..
That is right. An it isn´t right to speak about collective guilt. Guilt is always individual and never collective. If we leave this principal we betrayl the so called Western values. And one part of the thing is that todays Japan or Germany have nothing to do with the things happening 60 years ago.
By the way: Would you support reparations to Afro-Americans for slavery? If we speak about what is right.
Right means not to go for blind revenge. It was that that has caused the desasters of European history.
And it is not right to claim damages for things that happened 60 years ago or 100 years ago or even more. There has to be a limit for it.
And by the way: It would in return cause Germany to demand compensation for the loss of a third of its territory and for the ethnic cleansing of 12 milllion Germans and the stealing of their land

In hindsight, a unified Japan and Germany worked out. But if I were the Allies, I'd leave Germany and Japan as occupied zones forever and ever. They have reared their ugly head of agression for too long. Thankfully, they don't anymore. But they deserve to pay for their wrongs. Never in the history of humanity have two nations gotten away with so much theft, rape, and murder. It is disgusting.
Gotten away? Two nuclear bombs or the loss of a third of its territory is rather not getting away with it. Japan actually got much better away with it than Germany.
There were plans like you suggest (Morgenthau plan).
The Cold War prevented that. But if it happened it would mean that we two wouldn´t discuss today and that there would be a big terrorism problem in Europe - like between Israel and the Palestinians.
Without Germany developing into the third largest economy it wouldn´t have been possible to integrate the more than 14 million refugees.
And they would have tried to rise up against your system. And we would have a terrorism problem bigger than that between Israel and the Palestinians. It was difficult enough - and only under the condition that Poland doesn´t demand reparations that Germany gave up those territories.

No. Of course not. The Russians would just tell them to go f*ck themselves. Пойдите трахают себя. :D

Does the US have plans to catagorically kill much of the world's population, like the Germans and the Japanese did?
No, it doesn´t. But it is in a position of almost absolute power. And it is an historic experience that absolute power can be abused. And that is a cause for anti-Americanism. The anti-imperialistic or anti-hegemonial reflex.
I don´t like this reflex and therefore favour US leadership. Though I understand that others don´t.
And by the way: No country consist only of angels. Also not the US.
And if we speak about things like genocide: Soviet Union under Stalin (20 million), Osman Empire (Turkey during world war I 2 million Armenians), Pol Pot (Kambodschea 2 million), Ruanda-Burundi (1,5 million).
That doesn´t make things less worse.
But I wonder why all attention goes to Germany why the history of other dictators doesn´t get as much attention. There is a strong anti-german reflex. I understand that. But that doesn´t make it just or justified.
It is and remains wrong.

While modern Germany has changed, fascist Germany was a mirror image of Hitler. I see you live in Dresden. I'm glad. You're living in the spot where humanity had its greatest victory over German murderers. Take that as you wish, I'm just telling you my perception on it.
You misplace Dresden with Leipzig though. But both are in Saxony.

Ohhh look who's here? Fucking German bastards!This, along with the rest of your posts in this thread, is unacceptable. You're being warned for flaming.

I'd also like to remind everyone else that responding to him makes you just as guilty of flaming. Put him on ignore or something.

Q - how do you get a one-armed polok out of a tree?
A - Waive.
Q - how do you get a one-armed german out of a tree?
A - Shout 'Sieg Heil'These jokes are neither funny nor nice, especially considering the topic of this thread.

In this particular case only the name moron would do.Calling the entire population of the US 'morons' is necessary either.

You narrow-minded American pigs...This looks like directly flaming members of NS to me. Cut it out.

Пойдите трахают себя. :DHmm? I'd really prefer if you kept the debate in this thread to English.


Everyone should probably think about toning down the intensity of debate here.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator

Does the US have plans to catagorically kill much of the world's population, like the Germans and the Japanese did?

Enough with slamming the US!! When Europe was fighting that sociopath, Hitler, who did they look to for help? The US!! When the world needs money for AIDS awareness and research who do they look to? The US!! When the UN passed 17 resolutions against Iraq who stepped in and led a legal (check UN rules) war against Saddam (another sociopath bent on domination)? The US!! Who blocked UN backing the US in its takedown of this madman? GERMANY, Russia, and France!! Why? Because they were reaping billions of dollars in trade in direct defiance of the UN oil for food embargo. These countries spent innocent Iraqi blood to line their own coffers. THAT is dispicable!! It can't help but be noted that since Russia has now suffered their own 9/11 that they are saying they are going to launch an offensive campaign against terrorists...uh....like the US!! It's amazing how bloodshed on your own land changes your view of the world situation, isn't it? If you are take a defensive stance all you can do is clean up after you are attacked. Well, the US isn't going to be a passive puppy for the world anymore!! We've given and given and given and all we hear about are the mistakes that we make. How about, "Thanks America for donating the blood of hundreds of thousands of our troops to keep us free." instead of "Those yanks are trampling all over poor Iraq just to save a few million people from torture, rape, and death...<uh, kinda like they did for us>." A free and democratic Iraq will be a prosperous ally to ALL democratic nations...are you just too dense and wrapped up in your hate rhetoric to see that?

Well, the Holocaust mainly included jews - that is why the jews are rejecting other groups to claim to be part of it. Except the gypsies they were the only group who were intended to be eliminated.
The catholics weren´t. Hitler himself was catholic by the way. And he was Austrian.
The Jews suffered greatly, but I think they are a bit selfish in this regard. Anyhow, Hitler may have nominally been a Catholic, but he was very much into the occult. So were many Germans.

The Koreans would tell you otherwise.
I'm sure they would.
That is right. An it isn´t right to speak about collective guilt. Guilt is always individual and never collective. If we leave this principal we betrayl the so called Western values. And one part of the thing is that todays Japan or Germany have nothing to do with the things happening 60 years ago.
By the way: Would you support reparations to Afro-Americans for slavery? If we speak about what is right.
Right means not to go for blind revenge. It was that that has caused the desasters of European history.
And it is not right to claim damages for things that happened 60 years ago or 100 years ago or even more. There has to be a limit for it.
Guilt is very collective. Many Japanese supported the emperor and his government as almost a god-like figure. The Nazis came to power democratically. They both operated their governments as a system of gangs. The Japanese relied a lot on corporations to do their exploitation on the "greater East Asia co-prosperity zone", and Germany had a bureaocracy so large, Stalin would feel intimidated by it.
And btw, do I support reparations for blacks? On some scale, yes. I certainly supported the "mule and forty acres" plan that was much talked about, but never implemented. Plantation owning Southerners, of course, would have to foot the bill.
And by the way: It would in return cause Germany to demand compensation for the loss of a third of its territory and for the ethnic cleansing of 12 milllion Germans and the stealing of their land
It's was Germany's last salvo on Poland: to burden them with more land than they could handle. Now, the Poles need at least a little cash to operate it.

Gotten away? Two nuclear bombs or the loss of a third of its territory is rather not getting away with it. Japan actually got much better away with it than Germany.
Neither were forced to pay as badly for their sins against humanity. The Allies actually gave the leaders of Japan and Germany trials. I would think we'd just throw them all into a lava pit, no questions asked.
There were plans like you suggest (Morgenthau plan).
The Cold War prevented that. But if it happened it would mean that we two wouldn´t discuss today and that there would be a big terrorism problem in Europe - like between Israel and the Palestinians.
No, because the rest of Western Europe would make for a connected Germany. Germans in France would be just like the Basques in Spain: a quickly dying group.

While modern Germany has changed, fascist Germany was a mirror image of Hitler. I see you live in Dresden. I'm glad. You're living in the spot where humanity had its greatest victory over German murderers. Take that as you wish, I'm just telling you my perception on it.
If you mean that turning a city into glass that was and is a cultural jewel, killing thousands of refugees who did not kill anyone, is a success for humanity, then I wonder what other things your sick mind considers successes for humanity. Maybe the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Are those great victories of humanity aswell?

No, it doesn´t. But it is in a position of almost absolute power. And it is an historic experience that absolute power can be abused. And that is a cause for anti-Americanism. The anti-imperialistic or anti-hegemonial reflex.
I don´t like this reflex and therefore favour US leadership. Though I understand that others don´t.
And by the way: No country consist only of angels. Also not the US.
And if we speak about things like genocide: Soviet Union under Stalin (20 million), Osman Empire (Turkey during world war I 2 million Armenians), Pol Pot (Kambodschea 2 million), Ruanda-Burundi (1,5 million).
That doesn´t make things less worse.
But I wonder why all attention goes to Germany why the history of other dictators doesn´t get as much attention. There is a strong anti-german reflex. I understand that. But that doesn´t make it just or justified.
It is and remains wrong.
Stalin got to power as a fluke of administration. The leaders of Japan and Germany, however, were popularly supported. All previous German dictators, like Kaiser Wilhelm II, weren't elected. And don't tell me he wasn't a dictator because he was a monarch. Dictators and absolute monarchs really have the same roles, just different names.

If you mean that turning a city into glass that was and is a cultural jewel, killing thousands of refugees who did not kill anyone, is a success for humanity, then I wonder what other things your sick mind considers successes for humanity. Maybe the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Are those great victories of humanity aswell?
Yes, they were. They killed the murderers that were the majority in Japan, but not nearly enough of them paid for their sins. Besides, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were relatively small targets. We should've gone for the bigger ones, like Tokyo, or Osaka.

I see you live in Dresden. I'm glad. You're living in the spot where humanity had its greatest victory over German murderers.
Man must be a sick person to talk such nonsense, better read "Die Brand" from Friedrich, in wich the continue attacks on German civilians are well explained as a strategy. Remember Pforzheim for example. BTW, the Britts started targeting civilians in WWII as a reaction to the air offensive in summer 1940, the Geraman's then as a retaliation of tghe Berlin bombing started bombing London. But the airwar really went crazy with the massive bombing of German civialians to break their morale, instead of the bombing of the industry that produced numbers and broke productionrecords each month in 1944.

Man must be a sick person to talk such nonsense, better read "Die Brand" from Friedrich, in wich the continue attacks on German civilians are well explained as a strategy. Remember Pforzheim for example. BTW, the Britts started targeting civilians in WWII as a reaction to the air offensive in summer 1940, the Geraman's then as a retaliation of tghe Berlin bombing started bombing London. But the airwar really went crazy with the massive bombing of German civialians to break their morale, instead of the bombing of the industry that produced numbers and broke productionrecords each month in 1944.
You're right. Factories should always come first. Other criminals that hid as civilians should come later.

Stalin got to power as a fluke of administration. The leaders of Japan and Germany, however, were popularly supported. All previous German dictators, like Kaiser Wilhelm II, weren't elected. And don't tell me he wasn't a dictator because he was a monarch. Dictators and absolute monarchs really have the same roles, just different names.
Stalin got to power through brilliant manipulation of the Communist Party System where he was able to appoint ministers throughout the country as part of his position as general secretary. Using this he was able to put forward men whom would support him, and break Trotskys grip everywhere. Furthermore, he was granted control of a large amount of funds under that same position, which allowed him to further gain control through bribery, coercion, and fear. The man didn't get power through a fluke, he got it because he was ruthless and brilliant.

Japan on the other hand had its leaders whom gained power in a coup! They were never popularly supported, and only retained control through their hold on the emperor.

Wilhem wasn't a dictator, he was a prideful man who was ashamed of his crippled arm. Dictator doesn't equal Absolute Monarch, and the reverse holds true. Nobody could call the Russians Alexander a Dictator, the man willingly freed the serfs, and there are examples like that in every country. It was merely an older system of government. A dictator holds power through fear and coercion, a monarch through hereditary right.

Regaerding Euclid's ridiculous opinions (he is not very well informed about WWII), it is nice to tell that the Arrab hero's of 9/11 perfectly agree with his targeting of civilians. In fact regarding his opinions, men can only conclude that the hijackers on 9-11 were real heroes, revenging victims killed by the USSA :rolleyes:

However getting back to the point of this thread, there is no way reparations could be given. It would spark a mass cry from every country towards every enemy it ever had. Germany would demand them of the US, Great Britain would demand them of Argentina, France would demand them of the Vietnamese, the Japanese would demand them of the US, the Chinese would demand them of the Japanese, the Brazilians would demand them of...well almost every other nation surrounding Brazil, Mexico would demand them of the US. Hell, Canada would demand them of Germany.


It doesn't make sense, its foolish, and its 60 years too late.

Regaerding Euclid's ridiculous opinions (he is not very well informed about WWII), it is nice to tell that the Arrab hero's of 9/11 perfectly agree with his targeting of civilians. In fact regarding his opinions, men can only conclude that the hijackers on 9-11 were real heroes, revenging victims killed by the USSA :rolleyes:
As sick as this may sound, in some ways, 9/11 was a great day for America. It opened our eyes to the rest of the world, transformed our military, and showed us the delicate dispersal of terrorists and madmen among civilians who had nothing to do with any of this.

The Jews suffered greatly, but I think they are a bit selfish in this regard. Anyhow, Hitler may have nominally been a Catholic, but he was very much into the occult. So were many Germans..
Many yes, but a majority? Only 6 million were members of the Nazi party. The rest of the 60 millions weren´t. And that decision in a dictatorship aren´t done by majority rule is a fact you should know.


Guilt is very collective...
No, it isn´t. Guilt is only individual never collective. Are the whites collectively guilty for slavery? Or the US for the termination of the indians?
Yes, one thing is true. It are the winners who write the history books. But that doesn´t make them right if they write it in a very bious manner.

Many Japanese supported the emperor and his government as almost a god-like figure. The Nazis came to power democratically....
Hitler was not elected he was appointed and ruled through emergency law. I would call that hardly democratic. And the first thing he did was to end the little democracy that was left after 1930.
They both operated their governments as a system of gangs. The Japanese relied a lot on corporations to do their exploitation on the "greater East Asia co-prosperity zone", and Germany had a bureaocracy so large, Stalin would feel intimidated by it.....
Shure, it is called polycraty by the way. A system of rivaling instituitions all directed towards one person.
And btw, do I support reparations for blacks? On some scale, yes. I certainly supported the "mule and forty acres" plan that was much talked about, but never implemented. Plantation owning Southerners, of course, would have to foot the bill.....
I don´t. I don´t see why Afro-Americans today can claim damages for things which happened more than 140 years ago.
History can´t be solved via the cheque book.


It's was Germany's last salvo on Poland: to burden them with more land than they could handle. Now, the Poles need at least a little cash to operate it.
That was not Germanys decision, but the decision of the US, the UK, France and the Soviets.
But if you think they have to much land - well, we would take it back and would pay reparations in return.



No, because the rest of Western Europe would make for a connected Germany. Germans in France would be just like the Basques in Spain: a quickly dying group.
You can´t get rid of 80 million people though. That even didn´t work with the Irish. And they are just four millions.
They had to be given independence at the end.

You're right. Factories should always come first. Other criminals that hid as civilians should come later.
The bombings of Dresden and other large cities like Hamburg, cost many thousand civilians their lives. Most of them died in horrible ways, being sucked into the blazing city, the air sucked out of their lungs etc. The nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the lowest of the low war tactics to this date. There is no excuse for nuclear bombings of civilians or firebombing of entire cities in Germany. Luckily most of those who commited these atrocities realized their mistakes and do not think the way you do. If mankind is at the point where burning hundreds of thousands of unarmed non-combatants is acceptable, then we may aswell end our existence now.

Yes, they were. They killed the murderers that were the majority in Japan, but not nearly enough of them paid for their sins. Besides, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were relatively small targets. We should've gone for the bigger ones, like Tokyo, or Osaka.
Nagaska was the secondary target on a mission that was supposed to attack Kokura, a larger and more powerful industrial base.

Stalin got to power through brilliant manipulation of the Communist Party System where he was able to appoint ministers throughout the country as part of his position as general secretary. Using this he was able to put forward men whom would support him, and break Trotskys grip everywhere. Furthermore, he was granted control of a large amount of funds under that same position, which allowed him to further gain control through bribery, coercion, and fear. The man didn't get power through a fluke, he got it because he was ruthless and brilliant.
That's what I meant. He was brilliant, but Lenin didn't mean for Stalin to succeed him.
]Japan on the other hand had its leaders whom gained power in a coup! They were never popularly supported, and only retained control through their hold on the emperor.
But many elements of it were embedded into the popular imagination. Hirohito also seemed a bit partial to the Tojoites. While he did not support war with the US, he did support the idea of Japanese supremacy of the Pacific. In many ways, it was carried until the end of his reign, with Japan trying desparatly to be the leading economic power of the region through rabid protectionism and dumping.
Wilhem wasn't a dictator, he was a prideful man who was ashamed of his crippled arm. Dictator doesn't equal Absolute Monarch, and the reverse holds true. Nobody could call the Russians Alexander a Dictator, the man willingly freed the serfs, and there are examples like that in every country. It was merely an older system of government. A dictator holds power through fear and coercion, a monarch through hereditary right.[/QUOTE]

However getting back to the point of this thread, there is no way reparations could be given. It would spark a mass cry from every country towards every enemy it ever had. Germany would demand them of the US, Great Britain would demand them of Argentina, France would demand them of the Vietnamese, the Japanese would demand them of the US, the Chinese would demand them of the Japanese, the Brazilians would demand them of...well almost every other nation surrounding Brazil, Mexico would demand them of the US. Hell, Canada would demand them of Germany.
It doesn't make sense, its foolish, and its 60 years too late.
And Korea and China would demand them from Japan.
Anyway. I appreciate an reasonable opinion within the nonsense Purly is shouting out. I agree with him in other questions. But here he is - rhetorically - acting like a mad man.

As sick as this may sound, in some ways, 9/11 was a great day for America. It opened our eyes to the rest of the world, transformed our military, and showed us the delicate dispersal of terrorists and madmen among civilians who had nothing to do with any of this.

So you agree that people who attack innocents are terrorists? Thus you can only agree that the bombing of Dresden aso. in Germany and the A-bombs on Japan and the bombing of the civil district in Tokyo was also terrorist.

Well, the Holocaust mainly included jews - that is why the jews are rejecting other groups to claim to be part of it. Except the gypsies they were the only group who were intended to be eliminated.
The catholics weren´t. Hitler himself was catholic by the way. And he was Austrian.


Point of information:
*millions of Jews (many argue as many as six million; some argue this number includes "other undesirables".)
*euthanasia of German citizens found "life unfit for life" which could include the mentally or physically handicapped, the incurably sick and incurably insane
*homosexuals
*regular criminals
*political prisoners (the first, actually, to be sent off to the camps)
*Jehovah's Witnesses
*vagrants
*Gypsies
*women who
-were lesbians, or
-were prostitutes, or
-used birth control
*race defilers of both genders


http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/euthan.html
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/camps.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badges
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005378

Gigatron, I bought "Die Brand" of Friedrich after I heared about it on the BBC (although it is hard for the UK because the book really gives hard numbers and gives us the facts). It is a must buy for each person interested in WWII and the bombing of Germany by the allies. On most WWII history forums, it is seen as perhaps the best work edited this year. Great book at the level of the ones from Anthony Beevor and other great historians.

Many yes, but a majority? Only 6 million were members of the Nazi party. The rest of the 60 millions weren´t. And that decision in a dictatorship aren´t done by majority rule is a fact you should know.
Well, the Nazi party did carry a majority in the Reichstag, which set the stage for Hitler's ascent. You're right, Hitler didn't get elected democratically. But democracy was a huge help in placing him there. Not ten years before was Hitler regarded as a kook. Then many of the Germans started supporting him.

No, it isn´t. Guilt is only individual never collective. Are the whites collectively guilty for slavery? Or the US for the termination of the indians?
Yes, one thing is true. It are the winners who write the history books. But that doesn´t make them right if they write it in a very bious manner.
We all let the industrialization of African slaves develope, and not just keeping them as mere accessories. All Americans should feel badly about our negligence of the West, where many Indians met their doom. So yes, guilt can be collective, although it isn't always.

Shure, it is called polycraty by the way. A system of rivaling instituitions all directed towards one person.
Thanks. I didn't know the name for it.
I don´t. I don´t see why Afro-Americans today can claim damages for things which happened more than 140 years ago.
History can´t be solved via the cheque book.
But it can allieviate some pain. To date, the US congress has compensated many Native groups and the Hawai'ians. I don't see why blacks can't get similar treatment, although I do feel that they should only get light compensation.


That was not Germanys decision, but the decision of the US, the UK, France and the Soviets.
But if you think they have to much land - well, we would take it back and would pay reparations in return.
Sounds fair, but you'll have to ask the Poles what they think. I have a feeling they won't be happy about it.


You can´t get rid of 80 million people though. That even didn´t work with the Irish. And they are just four millions.
They had to be given independence at the end.
History is full of examples of nation-destroying, heart and soul. I'm optimistic it could've been done.

Nagaska was the secondary target on a mission that was supposed to attack Kokura, a larger and more powerful industrial base.
Oh. I did not know that.

The bombings of Dresden and other large cities like Hamburg, cost many thousand civilians their lives. Most of them died in horrible ways, being sucked into the blazing city, the air sucked out of their lungs etc. The nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the lowest of the low war tactics to this date. There is no excuse for nuclear bombings of civilians or firebombing of entire cities in Germany. Luckily most of those who commited these atrocities realized their mistakes and do not think the way you do. If mankind is at the point where burning hundreds of thousands of unarmed non-combatants is acceptable, then we may aswell end our existence now.
It's not that all nations are representative of their leaders. Most aren't. But Fascist Germany and Japan were huge exceptions.

So you agree that people who attack innocents are terrorists? Thus you can only agree that the bombing of Dresden aso. in Germany and the A-bombs on Japan and the bombing of the civil district in Tokyo was also terrorist.
There's a difference, however. Those that died on 9/11 weren't knowingly supporting the mass annihilation of much of the world's population, like the Germans and Japanese did. Similarly, most Arabs and Central Asians don't support al-Qaeda.

It's not that all nations are representative of their leaders. Most aren't. But Fascist Germany and Japan were huge exceptions.
Germany was not representative of Hitler. Hitler was Germany's worst politician to date, but he did not represent Germany. I'd go as far to say that he was entirely "ungerman". It is not human nature to gas people in concentration camps.

Point of information:
*millions of Jews (many argue as many as six million; some argue this number includes "other undesirables".)
*euthanasia of German citizens found "life unfit for life" which could include the mentally or physically handicapped, the incurably sick and incurably insane
*homosexuals
*regular criminals
*political prisoners (the first, actually, to be sent off to the camps)
*Jehovah's Witnesses
*vagrants
*Gypsies
*women who
-were lesbians, or
-were prostitutes, or
-used birth control
*race defilers of both genders

The matter of fact is however that the aim was to eliminate all jews. So, the aim was to eliminate all jews and - BTW- all gysis as well.
Regarding the other groups: it was not planned to kill all of them, "just" to reduce their number. And that is a difference - though of course not for the people who were killed.
But for that reason the jewish community correctly rejects other groups to claim the same thing. Because of that the Holocaust memorial is dedicated especially for the Jews and not for other groups. Though there are other information centres and historic sites to rember for those as well.

By the way: The population policy was of course to get as much Germans as possible - so too boost population. Because this population was needed to settle the "east" which was the intention of course.60 million Germans were not enough for that.

There's a difference, however. Those that died on 9/11 weren't knowingly supporting the mass annihilation of much of the world's population, like the Germans and Japanese did. Similarly, most Arabs and Central Asians don't support al-Qaeda.
You still seem to think that the Germans had any say in what happened. The vast majority didnt and was happy to be left alone by the SS. It was a dictatorship for a reason. This could not happen again in the democratic Germany of today where the leader answers to parliament and "allied" parties and opposition parties and the electorate.

Do anyone REALLY belive, that the claims of our Sejm (parlament) is something more than pre-election populist "vote game" ?
Just short reminder:
Nazi under direction of Hitler start WWII.
Commies under direction from Moscow resettlemented German civilians after war.
Got the point ?

Well, the Nazi party did carry a majority in the Reichstag, which set the stage for Hitler's ascent. You're right, Hitler didn't get elected democratically. But democracy was a huge help in placing him there. Not ten years before was Hitler regarded as a kook. Then many of the Germans started supporting him..
A certain little thing - called Great Depression led to a boost in support for the Nazi party (which was - you are correct in that) irrelevant before 1930. There was a growing demand for a strong man since the political leadershiped messed up things.


We all let the industrialization of African slaves develope, and not just keeping them as mere accessories. All Americans should feel badly about our negligence of the West, where many Indians met their doom. So yes, guilt can be collective, although it isn't always...
I don´t see Americans of today guilty for those things happened in the past. Guilt is not collective it is individual. There is a responsiblity to remember the past - but there is no collective guilt.


But it can allieviate some pain. To date, the US congress has compensated many Native groups and the Hawai'ians. I don't see why blacks can't get similar treatment, although I do feel that they should only get light compensation....
I disagree with you and agree in that part with the Republican Party -your party -which is in large parts against preferential treatment for minorities. And that is right.



Sounds fair, but you'll have to ask the Poles what they think. I have a feeling they won't be happy about it.....
Of course not: they have settled on this territory. But you can´t have it both ways. Either the one or the other. BTW, Poland is going to get money from the EU, Germany is its biggest trading partner and Germany is the biggest investor in Poland.
So - for the sake of the development of Poland it would be very stupid to bring all of that at risk. The Polish government is smart enough not to that. Though parliament isn´t. That is unfortunate - but since it is legally not binding this decision is irrelevant.




History is full of examples of nation-destroying, heart and soul. I'm optimistic it could've been done.
I don´t think so. It didn´t work with the Irish, who were much smaller than the Germans. And it wasn´t possible with the Chechens either - although the Russians are trying to "integrate" them since the 19 th century.
BTW, it would have meant to act in a way the Nazis did or the Japanese did towards the Chinese. But what would have been the difference between the West and them if it acted that way?

It's not that all nations are representative of their leaders. Most aren't. But Fascist Germany and Japan were huge exceptions.
They were not. Stalin was - surprisingly - were popular among Russians and Georgians - tough not other ethnic communities (especially the Kosaks, the baltic countries, Central Asia, Kalkmyks and Chechens).
And Saddam wouldn´t be able to stay in power if not a significant portion of the population (though not a majority but a significant proportion) would have backed him. The Mullah regime in Iran has even more backing - that are facts although you don´t like them.

The matter of fact is however that the aim was to eliminate all jews. So, the aim was to eliminate all jews and - BTW- all gysis as well.
Regarding the other groups: it was not planned to kill all of them, "just" to reduce their number. And that is a difference - though of course not for the people who were killed.
But for that reason the jewish community correctly rejects other groups to claim the same thing. Because of that the Holocaust memorial is dedicated especially for the Jews and not for other groups. Though there are other information centres and historic sites to rember for those as well.

By the way: The population policy was of course to get as much Germans as possible - so too boost population. Because this population was needed to settle the "east" which was the intention of course.60 million Germans were not enough for that.

I don't disagree with you that Jews were the main target; simply that people love to gloss it over and say it was "only" the Jews. I do not wish to minimize the suffering Jews endured, nor to say it is any less because others suffered too.

Jews were a target for genocide, but there are millions of others who died right alongside them. Those people, who died choking on the same Zyklon and CO, need a mention and some remembrance as well.

Do anyone REALLY belive, that the claims of our Sejm (parlament) is something more than pre-election populist "vote game" ?
Just short reminder:
Nazi under direction of Hitler start WWII.
Commies under direction from Moscow resettlemented German civilians after war.
Got the point ?
It is purely an electionist populism - simular to that in the Czech Republic before the election in spring 2002 - or even in the German election in autum 2002. Election rhetoric. At the end Germany supported the action in Iraq via allowing the US to use its air space, its bases, to proect them and by supporting the training of the Iraqi police.
Though the nasty rhetoric is of course damaging the relationship. The same is the case for Poland and the Czech Republic.

I don't disagree with you that Jews were the main target; simply that people love to gloss it over and say it was "only" the Jews. I do not wish to minimize the suffering Jews endured, nor to say it is any less because others suffered too.

Jews were a target for genocide, but there are millions of others who died right alongside them. Those people, who died choking on the same Zyklon and CO, need a mention and some remembrance as well.
You need to differentiate between the Holocaust (overwhelmingly jews), the Soviet prisoners of war, the worse opression and cruelty especially in the occupied territories Poland, Serbia and parts of Russia, the political prisoners and the victims of the "normal" combat.
The majority of victims outside combatt operations were jews.

You need to differentiate between the Holocaust (overwhelmingly jews), the Soviet prisoners of war, the worse opression and cruelty especially in the occupied territories Poland, Serbia and parts of Russia, the political prisoners and the victims of the "normal" combat.
The majority of victims outside combatt operations were jews.

I am speaking of those who died in the concentration camps the Nazis ran. Are they not all human?

I am speaking of those who died in the concentration camps the Nazis ran. Are they not all human?
They were: I wouldn´t have anything against a memorial directed to all groups. But since the Jewish community correctly pointed out the fact that it was the aim of the Nazis to eliminate all jews (that was not the case towards other groups) I understand their opinion that the memorial should be especially for the memory for them. We have to respect that.

its really unbelieveable this string of insolences from poland.
first they sneak into the EU, then get a hugh bunch of money for just joining, then they widen the split inside europe even wider when they joined americas side in the iraq war. next they think theyre a superpower and and speak insulting towards the old eu members.
then, a germany based organisation said they would try to get reparations for the 45 driving outs and expropriations. the german goverment said they wouldnt support these claims. case closed.
today the polish parliament decided to seek reparations towards germany cause they "have not received its due financial compensation or war damages". and that without a single dissent vote!

http://www.iht.com/articles/538365.html

this was the only english speaking article about it ive found. it seems there isnt any interest in idiotic claims towards germany. on the other hand, the (not supported) calls for reparations by the german organization towards poland is everywhere. biased at best.

what do you say?



Winging Germans!

Polands position seems to be somewhat reasionable.
They have stepped up to take their place as a member of the European ccommunity and should be treated with the respect shown the other countries.
Poland is now free to follow its own policies such as supporting the US. It no longer can/should be told what to do or think. Poland is no longer Germanys or Russa's vassal. It takes some adjustment to allow a country that one formally subugated (militarilery or economicly) become independant.
Poland was thrust from communisium into the modern free world and is still adjusting, you have to give them time and support. They do not have the advantage, as Germany had, of massive US support and guidance after the war to help Germany (re)develope an econony and free style government.
There will be rocky patches in the relations of the two countries but with tolerance and understanding Poland and Germany have the potential to become great allies.

Polands position seems to be somewhat reasionable.
They have stepped up to take their place as a member of the European ccommunity and should be treated with the respect shown the other countries.
Poland is now free to follow its own policies such as supporting the US. It no longer can/should be told what to do or think. Poland is no longer Germanys or Russa's vassal. It takes some adjustment to allow a country that one formally subugated (militarilery or economicly) become independant.
Poland was thrust from communisium into the modern free world and is still adjusting, you have to give them time and support. They do not have the advantage, as Germany had, of massive US support and guidance after the war to help Germany (re)develope an econony and free style government.
There will be rocky patches in the relations of the two countries but with tolerance and understanding Poland and Germany have the potential to become great allies.
Oh, the poor Poles of today. No, they really get no support. The opposite is true. Guess who is the biggest trading partner and investor in Poland: Germany. And guess who is going to benefit tremendously from EU membership especially financially: Poland. And who is mainly to pay for it? Germany.
If Poland however begins to start mischief it can forget to get that. And it would face simular claims by German nationals (after world war II Germany lost a third of its territory, 12 million Germans were forced to leave that what is today Poland).
It is reasonable to leave the past behind - after more than 60 years now. It is reasonable - after many treaties and contracts who say so not to bring does into question. It is unreasonable to play the old nationalistic game that has led Europe into many disasters before 1945 - in the centuries before as well. And in the 1990s on the Balkans.

(after world war II Germany lost a third of its territory, 12 million Germans were forced to leave that what is today Poland).

Actually it was more like 14 million. But 2 million died or dissappeared.

Germany was not representative of Hitler. Hitler was Germany's worst politician to date, but he did not represent Germany. I'd go as far to say that he was entirely "ungerman". It is not human nature to gas people in concentration camps.
The Nazis were democratically elected into the Reichstag. The Nazis also enjoyed fierce loyalty during the war. And most of all, many Germans liked the idea of Lesbraunum. We had to kill the murderer in the German and the Japanese, but it was impossible to do. Therefore, we had to kill it out of the older ones, and shock the children into abandoning their inner murderer.

The Nazis were democratically elected into the Reichstag. The Nazis also enjoyed fierce loyalty during the war. And most of all, many Germans liked the idea of Lesbraunum. We had to kill the murderer in the German and the Japanese, but it was impossible to do. Therefore, we had to kill it out of the older ones, and shock the children into abandoning their inner murderer.
You have some really weird views on humans... as if every German is born a murderer by default. The nazis had support, because it was a dictatorship and dissent resulted in a visit by the SS. I think thats also why Bush has so much support... he has the FBI and CIA and can point the finger and say "terrorist" or "rogue state" about everyone who does not fall in line. You'd be surprised how powerful peer-pressure and intimidation can be.

You have some really weird views on humans... as if every German is born a murderer by default. The nazis had support, because it was a dictatorship and dissent resulted in a visit by the SS. I think thats also why Bush has so much support... he has the FBI and CIA and can point the finger and say "terrorist" or "rogue state" about everyone who does not fall in line. You'd be surprised how powerful peer-pressure and intimidation can be.
Look, you're just throwing in the US to irritate me. Well here's what I think: Bush will loose. I'm also shocked about the ignorance towards the CIA. They don't do domestic spying, but strictly foreign spying.
Anyhow, did the SS have a great deal of power in the early thirties? No, but they got into the Reichstag anyhow. The Germans weren't born murderers, but Hitler made them that way. If a nice little international coalition went to Berlin in 1933, it'd be enough time to save Germany from itself. But it wasn't. We had to contain the disease and eradicate it, lest it spread, and ultimatly, kill about 95% of the world's population.

Look, you're just throwing in the US to irritate me. Well here's what I think: Bush will loose. I'm also shocked about the ignorance towards the CIA. They don't do domestic spying, but strictly foreign spying.
Anyhow, did the SS have a great deal of power in the early thirties? No, but they got into the Reichstag anyhow. The Germans weren't born murderers, but Hitler made them that way. If a nice little international coalition went to Berlin in 1933, it'd be enough time to save Germany from itself. But it wasn't. We had to contain the disease and eradicate it, lest it spread, and ultimatly, kill about 95% of the world's population.
Do you have proof for your claims that Hitler wanted to kill 95% of the world population?

Do you have proof for your claims that Hitler wanted to kill 95% of the world population?
Well, Hitler did write Mein Kampf, which outlines that he wanted to either kill or enslave every non German, who was "sub-human". The bad part for you, however, is that Mein Kampf is illegal in Germany, so you can't verify it for yourself.

Look, you're just throwing in the US to irritate me. Well here's what I think: Bush will loose. I'm also shocked about the ignorance towards the CIA. They don't do domestic spying, but strictly foreign spying
I guess you never heard of operation CHAOS then.

I guess you never heard of operation CHAOS then.
No.

Well, Hitler did write Mein Kampf, which outlines that he wanted to either kill or enslave every non German, who was "sub-human". The bad part for you, however, is that Mein Kampf is illegal in Germany, so you can't verify it for yourself.
Well I've just checked through the chapters of his book and cant find anywhere where he specificly says that he wants to erradicate 95% of the world's population. Besides, the book may not be publicly sold here, yet nobody can tell me what I may read and what not. The internet goes beyond German jurisdiction - luckily.

No.
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/lyon.html

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/lyon.html
Well, I can see why the CIA tried to conceal it. It shouldn't have existed. The NSA can probably pull something like that off. After all, no one knows what happens in the NSA.

Well I've just checked through the chapters of his book and cant find anywhere where he specificly says that he wants to erradicate 95% of the world's population. Besides, the book may not be publicly sold here, yet nobody can tell me what I may read and what not. The internet goes beyond German jurisdiction - luckily.
95% was sort of a guess, really. But I bet that at least 90% of the world's population is not German.

Well, I can see why the CIA tried to conceal it. It shouldn't have existed. The NSA can probably pull something like that off. After all, no one knows what happens in the NSA.
The CIA also conducts industrial espionage. In order to give US firms an edge over their competitors. Mostly against companies from "allied" countries. With "allies" like the US you who needs enemies?

You seem to believe that Germany was the sole reason why WW2 happened or that the German people today are the reason why Poland has economic problems today. You are wrong though. Hitler was not voted into power by the German people and the people here during the 1930s and 1940s were part of a brainwashed nationalist society where any dissent was punished with death. As such, I think holding the entire German nation today responsible for what happened in WW2 is shortsighted and wrong. Poland may sue Hitler if they want. I had nothing to do with WW2 and if I had any power to say anything, I'd tell the Poles that Germany today is not the Germany that fought in WW2 and caused a lot of suffering. Our country was split into 4 zones and eventually reunited. Mostpeople here are sorry for what happened 60 years ago, but we are humans without the power to change the past. I will not allow our government today, to cause suffering for the German people by succumbing to Polish demands which would literally bankrupt the nation.


Wow, Great Gigatron. I'm glad you've established that we can't hold Governments responsible for past actions! Now, you can stop your bitching about American Foreign Policy, like Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Blah BLAH BLAH.

95% was sort of a guess, really. But I bet that at least 90% of the world's population is not German.
Hitler's aim was not to kill everyone who was not German. I suggest you read "Mein Kampf" before you say what Hitler's plans were. Although I cannot recommend that book. It is extremely long-winded and boring.

The CIA also conducts industrial espionage. In order to give US firms an edge over their competitors. Mostly against companies from "allied" countries. With "allies" like the US you who needs enemies?
I'm guessing that was mostly in the ultra protectionist days of the sixties, though I wouldn't be surprised if some was done against Japan in the eighties.

I'm guessing that was mostly in the ultra protectionist days of the sixties, though I wouldn't be surprised if some was done against Japan in the eighties.
Actually as far as I know it's going on today. I remember reading some stuff about it in the late '90's. Targets are Japan, Western-Europe and key developing nations like India or Brazil.

Wow, Great Gigatron. I'm glad you've established that we can't hold Governments responsible for past actions! Now, you can stop your bitching about American Foreign Policy, like Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Blah BLAH BLAH.
*Past actions* means, actions in the past, which are not recent history. I do not blame the US for Grenada or Korea. I have no idea what the US did there. However, Vietnam is not so long ago neither is Iraq or Afghanistan. I will blame the US government for increase in terrorism, because the current government is the reason for it, although the last 50 years contributed to increase in terrorism with US capitalism and corporate interests spreading over the world.

Hitler's aim was not to kill everyone who was not German. I suggest you read "Mein Kampf" before you say what Hitler's plans were. Although I cannot recommend that book. It is extremely long-winded and boring.
Yes it was. He wanted to expand "living space", and declared that every non-German, and more specifically non Aryan, was not fit to live, and was best either dead or a slave. He even established his own brand of "race science".
He was also interested in clonjing. He tried replicating it, because he found it to be necessary for the survival of the Aryan race. There were a lot of things that he did, and it all points toward his real "final solution": a world with only blond haired, blue eyed Germans. Hitler just went after Jews first and most viciously because they were easy targets. Anti-semitism in Europe, obviously, existed for eons.

Actually as far as I know it's going on today. I remember reading some stuff about it in the late '90's. Targets are Japan, Western-Europe and key developing nations like India or Brazil.
What can I say? Spying is a game, really. The only time it matters is if someone catches you. But I'm sure they aren't really passing information to American corporations, but rather, studying the health and structure of other economies, to make sure that they don't use money as a weapon against the US. Think of it as network-centric warfare, but preemptively.

Yes it was. He wanted to expand "living space", and declared that every non-German, and more specifically non Aryan, was not fit to live, and was best either dead or a slave. He even established his own brand of "race science".
But he got that race science idea from America.

What can I say? Spying is a game, really. The only time it matters is if someone catches you. But I'm sure they aren't really passing information to American corporations, but rather, studying the health and structure of other economies, to make sure that they don't use money as a weapon against the US. Think of it as network-centric warfare, but preemptively.
Yeah. Sure....simpelton.

But he got that race science idea from America.
Hitler had a statewide endorsement of it.

Hitler had a statewide endorsement of it.
What?

What?
Sure. He had it tought in schools, and reinforced in many facets of life he controlled (e.i. virtually everything).

Sure. He had it tought in schools, and reinforced in many facets of life he controlled (e.i. virtually everything).
Yeah, and how is that an endorsement for him?

Yeah, and how is that an endorsement for him?
Well, what I was trying to say was that Hitler endorsed race science. Sorry if you got another impression.

Yes it was. He wanted to expand "living space", and declared that every non-German, and more specifically non Aryan, was not fit to live, and was best either dead or a slave. He even established his own brand of "race science".
He was also interested in clonjing. He tried replicating it, because he found it to be necessary for the survival of the Aryan race. There were a lot of things that he did, and it all points toward his real "final solution": a world with only blond haired, blue eyed Germans. Hitler just went after Jews first and most viciously because they were easy targets. Anti-semitism in Europe, obviously, existed for eons.
"Aryan" does not mean blond-haired, blue-eyed German. Actually, quite a lot of people qualified for that. Hitler was antisemitic, obviously, but he was not going to erradicate most of the world's population because the majority of the world is not jewish. While he considered the "Aryan" race to be superior and more worth, other races did not have to be erradicated due to that.

Check out this page to see what Hitler's aims were:

http://www.kdhs.org.uk/history/as/as_unit3/hitlers_aims.htm

Well, I can see why the CIA tried to conceal it. It shouldn't have existed. The NSA can probably pull something like that off. After all, no one knows what happens in the NSA.
That wasn't the point. The point was that you accused Giga of beeing ignorant about the CIA. That the CIA does not conduct any domestic espionage. When you are the ignorant one.

"Aryan" does not mean blond-haired, blue-eyed German. Actually, quite a lot of people qualified for that. Hitler was antisemitic, obviously, but he was not going to erradicate most of the world's population because the majority of the world is not jewish. While he considered the "Aryan" race to be superior and more worth, other races did not have to be erradicated due to that.

Check out this page to see what Hitler's aims were:

http://www.kdhs.org.uk/history/as/as_unit3/hitlers_aims.htm
Lesbraunum has a very suspicious ring to it, doesn't it? And social Darwinism means just that: if you weren't fit to live, you would die. Simple as that.

Well, what I was trying to say was that Hitler endorsed race science. Sorry if you got another impression.
And he got the idea for racial science from the good ol' boys in the USA.

That wasn't the point. The point was that you accused Giga of beeing ignorant about the CIA. That the CIA does not conduct any domestic espionage. When you are the ignorant one.
I accuse many of being ignorant about the CIA. They say that the CIA is this all-powerful organization that does absolutely anything it wishes. It doesn't know, however, that there are about 15 different intelligence agencies on a federal level alone. And let's not forget that the CIA's "Operation Chaos" was mainly against foreign residents in the US and government officials, not a large domestic spying operation.

And he got the idea for racial science from the good ol' boys in the USA.
And America was settled by many Germans.

Lesbraunum has a very suspicious ring to it, doesn't it? And social Darwinism means just that: if you weren't fit to live, you would die. Simple as that.
It's "Lebensraum" btw, German for living space. I think you need to read some more to not sound funny when you write ;)

And he got the idea for racial science from the good ol' boys in the USA.
The idea always existed. To say that the US created it is nonsense. It was around since at least the Assyrians, in their fanatical campaign to wipe out the conquered, such as the Israelites.

It's "Lebensraum" btw, German for living space. I think you need to read some more to not sound funny when you write ;)
Oh, sorry. But it sounds very suspicious to me. At the very least, all non-Germans would probably end up in ghettoes if he won the war.

And let's not forget that the CIA's "Operation Chaos" was mainly against foreign residents in the US and government officials, not a large domestic spying operation.
On college campuses? In the peace movement? And let's not forget that operation CHAOS is only one operation. Where there is one there are more. So be carefull when using the word ignorant.

On college campuses? In the peace movement? And let's not forget that operation CHAOS is only one operation. Where there is one there are more. So be carefull when using the word ignorant.
The CIA, however, didn't need to do more. As for college protests, they did tend to get a bit violent. Besides, I could understand the paranoia of the time. They might have been colluding with the Soviets, using a demand for peace as merely a cover.

Oh, sorry. But it sounds very suspicious to me. At the very least, all non-Germans would probably end up in ghettoes if he won the war.
Unlikely. Hitler never wanted to dominate the entire world. Although he anticipated that the "master race" would, through natural selection, eventually rule the planet. This "master race" was nordic, european, white. Which was typically blond and blue eyed. Alas, the "aryan race" as Hitler thought, was the only race capable of creating civilization and culture, whereas all others were incapable of this, which would have led to world domination naturally. I don't agree with this, since we know that mankind originated in Africa and from black people, but Hitler did not want to invade the entire world. Germany never had the resources or manpower required for that.

I wish to point out that your various claims of a "third of Germany" that was given to the Poles for compensation for the war is misleading. Sure the Germans have a beef with losing a third of their country after losing the war but they should blame the USSR (or I suppose the Russians if that all youve got). They did start the war after all so really that is a moot point.
After WWII the USSR shifted the borders west. They took about a third of Poland and gave Poland about a third of Germany. Frankly the bits Poland got (farmland and what was left of an industreal base) were much better than the bits the USSR got (swamps and sandy soil) but still that is little compensation for after just being enslaved and killed by the Germans to being enslaved and oppressed by the Soviets.
Yes all this happened more than 60 years ago but Poland has only been out of the Soviet bloc for about a decade. They are still coming to terms with their past.
One thing I do have to say is that the reason this discussion is even taking place is that I believe Germany as a nation has matured and come to grips with its past. Something the Russians and Japenese have yet to do. Germany has given billions of DM's to Isreal and they were not even a country during the Nazi era.
I do not "blame" the Germans of today for what their grandfathers did but they are Germans still and their history, for good or bad, is their history and they have to deal with it and I am glad that as a whole they have dealt with that very nasty era in a positive and helpful way. Hopefully their compassion will not decrease with the passage of time.

The idea always existed. To say that the US created it is nonsense. It was around since at least the Assyrians, in their fanatical campaign to wipe out the conquered, such as the Israelites.
No. It did not. What you are describing is not a science. The US created it. And it came to Hitlers attention in the 1920's.
War against the weak (http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/index.php)
Introduction (http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/intro.php)
Chapter 1 (http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/chapter1.php)
It startet on Long Island and eneded in Ausschwitz.

I wish to point out that your various claims of a "third of Germany" that was given to the Poles for compensation for the war is misleading. Sure the Germans have a beef with losing a third of their country after losing the war but they should blame the USSR (or I suppose the Russians if that all youve got). They did start the war after all so really that is a moot point.
After WWII the USSR shifted the borders west. They took about a third of Poland and gave Poland about a third of Germany. Frankly the bits Poland got (farmland and what was left of an industreal base) were much better than the bits the USSR got (swamps and sandy soil) but still that is little compensation for after just being enslaved and killed by the Germans to being enslaved and oppressed by the Soviets.
Yes all this happened more than 60 years ago but Poland has only been out of the Soviet bloc for about a decade. They are still coming to terms with their past.
One thing I do have to say is that the reason this discussion is even taking place is that I believe Germany as a nation has matured and come to grips with its past. Something the Russians and Japenese have yet to do. Germany has given billions of DM's to Isreal and they were not even a country during the Nazi era.
I do not "blame" the Germans of today for what their grandfathers did but they are Germans still and their history, for good or bad, is their history and they have to deal with it and I am glad that as a whole they have dealt with that very nasty era in a positive and helpful way. Hopefully their compassion will not decrease with the passage of time.
It will decrease, if it is being abused like this. Our purse is not gigantic. We actually have more than enough national problems so that we cannot afford throwing money out to other countries just like that.

Lesbraunum has a very suspicious ring to it, doesn't it? And social Darwinism means just that: if you weren't fit to live, you would die. Simple as that.

Yes, "Lesbraunum" has a suspicious ring to it, especially as it isn´t a German word at all you dick-head. Maybe you should pay a BIT more attention in the next history class...

Yes, "Lesbraunum" has a suspicious ring to it, especially as it isn´t a German word at all you dick-head. Maybe you should pay a BIT more attention in the next history class...
Ah. You beat me to it. And I think "Lesbraunum" is not a word at all.

I wish to point out that your various claims of a "third of Germany" that was given to the Poles for compensation for the war is misleading. Sure the Germans have a beef with losing a third of their country after losing the war but they should blame the USSR (or I suppose the Russians if that all youve got). They did start the war after all so really that is a moot point.
After WWII the USSR shifted the borders west. They took about a third of Poland and gave Poland about a third of Germany. Frankly the bits Poland got (farmland and what was left of an industreal base) were much better than the bits the USSR got (swamps and sandy soil) but still that is little compensation for after just being enslaved and killed by the Germans to being enslaved and oppressed by the Soviets.
Yes all this happened more than 60 years ago but Poland has only been out of the Soviet bloc for about a decade. They are still coming to terms with their past.
One thing I do have to say is that the reason this discussion is even taking place is that I believe Germany as a nation has matured and come to grips with its past. Something the Russians and Japenese have yet to do. Germany has given billions of DM's to Isreal and they were not even a country during the Nazi era.
I do not "blame" the Germans of today for what their grandfathers did but they are Germans still and their history, for good or bad, is their history and they have to deal with it and I am glad that as a whole they have dealt with that very nasty era in a positive and helpful way. Hopefully their compassion will not decrease with the passage of time.

Dude, I applaud you for this excellent post and I´m honoured to have read your contribution :) Thanks a lot!

Ah. You beat me to it. And I think "Lesbraunum" is not a word at all.
It is not a word at all, but it has the ring of "lesbian". I think that is why it has a suspicious ring for him ;) Anything that sounds remotely homosexual is of course suspicious.

It is not a word at all, but it has the ring of "lesbian". I think that is why it has a suspicious ring for him ;) Anything that sounds remotely homosexual is of course suspicious.

I thought as much, but I decided NOT to bring lesbianism or whatever you might call it into the discussion :)

I thought as much, but I decided NOT to bring lesbianism or whatever you might call it into the discussion :)
Well it is obvious. No need to talk around the "heissen brei" ;)

Well it is obvious. No need to talk around the "heissen brei" ;)

About what? *confused*

Unlikely. Hitler never wanted to dominate the entire world. Although he anticipated that the "master race" would, through natural selection, eventually rule the planet. This "master race" was nordic, european, white. Which was typically blond and blue eyed. Alas, the "aryan race" as Hitler thought, was the only race capable of creating civilization and culture, whereas all others were incapable of this, which would have led to world domination naturally. I don't agree with this, since we know that mankind originated in Africa and from black people, but Hitler did not want to invade the entire world. Germany never had the resources or manpower required for that.
But he spent time planning to invade every nation on the planet. The Axis was just an alliance of convinience.

But he spent time planning to invade every nation on the planet. The Axis was just an alliance of convinience.

That´s pure unfunded speculation. There is no historic evidence of Hitler having any further plans than expanding Germany to the east. The invasion of France and the low countires as well as Scandinavia was just a necessary step. I doubt Hitler would have planned to take over Africa, Asia, all the islands in the Pacific and the Americas. He was maybe a bit insane in his main-frame, but he DID have a gripe on reality - at least ebfore he went bunker-crazy.

No. It did not. What you are describing is not a science. The US created it. And it came to Hitlers attention in the 1920's.
War against the weak (http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/index.php)
Introduction (http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/intro.php)
Chapter 1 (http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/chapter1.php)
Wow. Your attempts at America bashing is reached new levels of absurdity. Making these useless historical connections and attempting to shift responsibility dodges the fact that Germany and the German people consciously put Hitler in power and caused some of the most brutal ruthless genocides in history. Sure, all nations' history are interconnected in good and evil but that doesn't make one nation more or less evil than any other nation.

By your logic, China is responsible for the bloodshed of the Thirty Years' War because gunpowder was invented there. Germany is responsible for the evils of communism because Marx was from Germany and during WWI the Germans shipped Lenin to Russia in order to overthrow the Tsar... resulting in millions murdered by the USSR and even more millions murdered by Mao. All of these claims are ridiculous because obviously the Thirty Years War was a European affair and the RUssian and Chinese bear the most responsibility for supporting their tyrannical regimes. The irrefutable fact is that eugenics was quickly discredited in the US and its proponents disgraced while Germany, German leaders, and people of Germany are the ones who implemented one of the most efficient bloodbaths in all history and thus must accept the greatest responsibility.

That´s pure unfunded speculation. There is no historic evidence of Hitler having any further plans than expanding Germany to the east. The invasion of France and the low countires as well as Scandinavia was just a necessary step. I doubt Hitler would have planned to take over Africa, Asia, all the islands in the Pacific and the Americas. He was maybe a bit insane in his main-frame, but he DID have a gripe on reality - at least ebfore he went bunker-crazy.
So invading the West was just a precursor? Then why did he send U-boats to patrol the Gulf of Mexico, and try to blockade the US east coast, even before we went to war with him?

That´s pure unfunded speculation. There is no historic evidence of Hitler having any further plans than expanding Germany to the east. The invasion of France and the low countires as well as Scandinavia was just a necessary step. I doubt Hitler would have planned to take over Africa, Asia, all the islands in the Pacific and the Americas. He was maybe a bit insane in his main-frame, but he DID have a gripe on reality - at least ebfore he went bunker-crazy.
Well. Actually there is proof for that.
the German RiskAAR (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97747&page=1&pp=25)
:D He had several warfare simulators created for him to plan his invasions of the entire world. :D

Wow. Your attempts at America bashing is The irrefutable fact is that eugenics was quickly discredited in the US and its proponents disgraced while Germany, German leaders, and people of Germany are the ones who implemented one of the most efficient bloodbaths in all history and thus must accept the greatest responsibility.

Yeah, but can you blame it on Germans living today? They weren´t involved. Why should they suffer and pay for it now? It´s like taking your money away (I saw you´re from the US of A) and give it to some random black dude as maybe one of your ancestors used to get rich by running a slave-labour coton plantation. You see my point?

So invading the West was just a precursor? Then why did he send U-boats to patrol the Gulf of Mexico, and try to blockade the US east coast, even before we went to war with him?
Because the US declared it's neutrality by sending Britain supplies and equipment. Worth keeping an eye on don't you think? :rolleyes:

So invading the West was just a precursor? Then why did he send U-boats to patrol the Gulf of Mexico, and try to blockade the US east coast, even before we went to war with him?

To intercept supplies heading for the UK - one of his opponents? As I said, there is no funded evidence for "Hitler´s World Domination" master-plan.

the fact that Germany and the German people consciously put Hitler in power and caused some of the most brutal ruthless genocides in history.
The fact? I think you are dreaming.

To intercept supplies heading for the UK - one of his opponents? As I said, there is no funded evidence for "Hitler´s World Domination" master-plan.
Are you a neo-Nazi? Because if you aren't, you sound too much like one, trying to defend Hitler.

The fact? I think you are dreaming.
The Nazi party did dominate the Reichstag democratically, which put Hitler into power.

The Nazi party did dominate the Reichstag democratically, which put Hitler into power.
Wrong.

The Poles are too conservative for my taste, but they have a right to make choices that are different from Germany. Schroeder is way arrogant to just tell them to "shut up".

Wrong.
How do you know?

The fact? I think you are dreaming.

He actually DOES have a point there. Maybe not all of them supported Hitler, but a hughe number of them didn´t dare to speak out against him. But on the other hand, in the beginning, everyone - even people outside Germany - loved Hitler. There´s a rather positive quote by Churchill about Hitler:

"One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

Scary, ain´t it?

Yeah, but can you blame it on Germans living today? They weren´t involved. Why should they suffer and pay for it now? It´s like taking your money away (I saw you´re from the US of A) and give it to some random black dude as maybe one of your ancestors used to get rich by running a slave-labour coton plantation. You see my point?

Don't put any words in my mouth. I didn't blame the Germans of today for the crimes of the past, and neither have I wrote supporting today's Germany paying these reparations. I agree with you on all your points. However Von Witzelben needs to stop trying to demonize the USA and modern Americans with his anti-American rhetoric. His various citations about long ago history have nothing to do with us modern day people. And his citations aren't even logical in any case.

Are you a neo-Nazi? Because if you aren't, you sound too much like one, trying to defend Hitler.

Trying to defend Hitler? Sorry. I resent that statement. Just use common logic:

Your at war with the UK and someone from the US sends supplies to the UK. So you try to stop them. That´s what Hitler did by ordering his fleet to blockade the US coast as it was far easier to intercept the ships there than in the open Atlantic.

I don´t think I´d have acted much different.

Don't put any words in my mouth. I didn't blame the Germans of today for the crimes of the past, and neither have I wrote supporting today's Germany paying these reparations. I agree with you on all your points. However Von Witzelben needs to stop trying to demonize the USA and modern Americans with his anti-American rhetoric. His various citations about long ago history have nothing to do with us modern day people. And his citations aren't even logical in any case.

I stand corrected.

The fact? I think you are dreaming.
The fact? Your one-liners are lame. Come back to me when you come up with something substantive.

He actually DOES have a point there. Maybe not all of them supported Hitler, but a hughe number of them didn´t dare to speak out against him.
Not daring to speak out against him isn't the same thing as supporting him. Those that did speak out vanished into the camps. Something you hardly ever hear about. The first occupants of the camps where not Jews or Gypsies. They were journalist, social democrats and other dissidents. Those that got out alive would not dare to voice their opinion again.

To intercept supplies heading for the UK - one of his opponents? As I said, there is no funded evidence for "Hitler´s World Domination" master-plan.
I already gave you the proof for that.

Trying to defend Hitler? Sorry. I resent that statement. Just use common logic:

Your at war with the UK and someone from the US sends supplies to the UK. So you try to stop them. That´s what Hitler did by ordering his fleet to blockade the US coast as it was far easier to intercept the ships there than in the open Atlantic.

I don´t think I´d have acted much different.
But it shows clear intent that Hitler had designs on the US. Let's not forget, btw, how there were German ships in the Rio de la Plata. He had one eye on Europe, but the other eye was on the world. Once he defeated the world militarily, I'm sure the SS would've done away with them, and all of the sick Germans could live on their 10,000 sq mi. plots of land.

Don't put any words in my mouth. I didn't blame the Germans of today for the crimes of the past, and neither have I wrote supporting today's Germany paying these reparations. I agree with you on all your points. However Von Witzelben needs to stop trying to demonize the USA and modern Americans with his anti-American rhetoric. His various citations about long ago history have nothing to do with us modern day people. And his citations aren't even logical in any case.
My "rethoric" was a response to Purly Euclids America is a saint and never did anything wrong rethoric.

But it shows clear intent that Hitler had designs on the US. Let's not forget, btw, how there were German ships in the Rio de la Plata. He had one eye on Europe, but the other eye was on the world. Once he defeated the world militarily, I'm sure the SS would've done away with them, and all of the sick Germans could live on their 10,000 sq mi. plots of land.
And those ships where there batteling the Royal Navy. Has nothing to do with his "World domination masterplan".

But it shows clear intent that Hitler had designs on the US. Let's not forget, btw, how there were German ships in the Rio de la Plata. He had one eye on Europe, but the other eye was on the world. Once he defeated the world militarily, I'm sure the SS would've done away with them, and all of the sick Germans could live on their 10,000 sq mi. plots of land.

I never read anything on Germans up the Rio de la Plata. As I said above two times already, there is NO conclusive evidence for Hitler´s world domination master plan. And I doubt there was such a plan.

My "rethoric" was a response to Purly Euclids America is a saint and never did anything wrong rethoric.
Which I never said. No one is bloodless. But fascist Germany and Japan had about 150 million crazed murderers in their borders.

I never read anything on Germans up the Rio de la Plata. As I said above two times already, there is NO conclusive evidence for Hitler´s world domination master plan. And I doubt there was such a plan.
Even if there wasn't a concrete plan, I'm sure the Nazis nor Germany at large wouldn't mind if it happened.

Which I never said. No one is bloodless. But fascist Germany and Japan had about 150 million crazed murderers in their borders.

Please elaborate. I do wonder how you´ll explain that number. 150 million sounds a bit much. Don´t you think? It would assume that every person alive at that time in those nations was "crazed murderer", a assumption I do not share.

How do you know?
Hitler was installed by Hindenburg, not in a democratic fashion. While the general circumstances of an economically desastrous Germany favoured this decision, Hitler never had a majority of the German electorate. That he did not face broad opposition in the German population during his "reign of terror" was due to the fact that he had an excellently planned and executed dictatorship and that the SS was extremely efficient at removing dissident citizens. Several attempts at deposing Hitler failed, unfortunately, so he could continue using Germany for his twisted ideas.

Even if there wasn't a concrete plan, I'm sure the Nazis nor Germany at large wouldn't mind if it happened.

That´s open to discussion, but I see no point in assuming evey madman heads for world domination - that is, unless you try to demonize them (even more - as they surley are demons).

It´s a bit as whacky as those "Bush wants to conquer all the oil!!!!"-conspiration theories. No evidence and open to speculation.

Please elaborate. I do wonder how you´ll explain that number. 150 million sounds a bit much. Don´t you think? It would assume that every person alive at that time in those nations was "crazed murderer", a assumption I do not share.
The Nazis got into power democratically, and fully knew their platform. Emperor Hirohito seemed to endorse the expansionism of Japan, and the people were not just fanatically for it, but supporting it to the point of suicide bombings.

Hitler was installed by Hindenburg, not in a democratic fashion. While the general circumstances of an economically desastrous Germany favoured this decision, Hitler never had a majority of the German electorate. That he did not face broad opposition in the German population during his "reign of terror" was due to the fact that he had an excellently planned and executed dictatorship and that the SS was extremely efficient at removing dissident citizens. Several attempts at deposing Hitler failed, unfortunately, so he could continue using Germany for his twisted ideas.
But you forget that the Nazis dominated the Reichstag.

Which I never said. No one is bloodless. But fascist Germany and Japan had about 150 million crazed murderers in their borders.
You are once again wrong. Read my last post before this one to understand why Hitler could do what he did. Germany did *not* consist of murderers.

I never read anything on Germans up the Rio de la Plata.
It was just one ship. The Deutschland Class pocket battle ship Admiral Graf Spee. A merchant raider. On december 13, 1939 they engaged the three British cruisers Exeter, Ajax and Achilles at the Rio de la Plata delta. The Exeter and Ajax where badly damaged. But so was the Admiral Graf Spee. After the battle they fled into the neutral port of Monte Video for repairs.
After the British secret service succesfully spread the rumor that strong British and French naval units where gathering to cut off their voyage back home she was sunk by her crew on december 17, 1939.

But you forget that the Nazis dominated the Reichstag.
They did, alas they only did because Hitler removed democracy by installing an "Emergency Law" after the burning of the Reichstag. He granted himself absolute power and murdered several members of the government to secure his position. I dont think that this is "democratic".

They did, alas they only did because Hitler removed democracy by installing an "Emergency Law" after the burning of the Reichstag. He granted himself absolute power and murdered several members of the government to secure his position. I dont think that this is "democratic".
But the Reichstag was dominated by Nazis long before the Reichstag building burned, and members held seats before the Great Depression. Even before Hitler was made chancelor, Hermann Goering was the Reichstag president.

The Nazis got into power democratically, and fully knew their platform. Emperor Hirohito seemed to endorse the expansionism of Japan, and the people were not just fanatically for it, but supporting it to the point of suicide bombings.

Still doesn´t explain the 150 million crazed murderers claim.

Germany had large segments of the population firmly supporting Hitler but most Germans I think were decent people who might have supported Hitler in the past but came to realize the futility of the Nazi regime and prayed for the end of the national nightmare. Wartime Japanese society, however, was on the whole extremely twisted and sadistic, including the civilian segments of the population. For centuries traditional Japanese culture had a huge tolerance for brutality and it was strengthened by the militarist regime.

I never read anything on Germans up the Rio de la Plata. As I said above two times already, there is NO conclusive evidence for Hitler´s world domination master plan. And I doubt there was such a plan.

Well since you asked twice,(New Anthrus)I will reply at your hoax. First you make to much assumptions with your plan about giving South Am. land at Germans and your ghostships on the River Plate.

Second, perhaps you had heared in one of my former posts (Silly mountain Walks) about the Graf Spee wich lies on the botom of the sea, just before the river plate estuary. your immagination brought you far away from the facts.

The pocket battle ship Graf Spee was followed since days by Brittish warships, under wich the Ajax in the Southern Atlantic where it acted as a raider against Brittish and alied ships. After it was spoted and hit in a first battle, it sat course to Montevideo to make small repairs.(tolerated for 24 hours for all involved nations in war according to law then). While in Montevideo, the Britts had brought in some more ships and it was obvious for Graf Spees commander that he had to go in neutral captivity and scuttle his ship.

So he saild out in a desperate try to give his ship the last chance to make it. But he lost and blew up the ship.

That is a complete diferent story then your hoax that you try to sell here in your anti German propaganda. BTW, there were no ships, just one, the Graf Spee and it never was on the river (a battleship like the Graf Spee, simply can not sail on that river)

Still doesn´t explain the 150 million crazed murderers claim.
Sure it does. Every action by those two was popularly supported by their constituents.

Ulrichland, the facts I gave were ment for New Anthrus, not for you, quotet the wrong guy, sorry.

Sure it does. Every action by those two was popularly supported by their constituents.
Nazi Germany was a Dictatorship. Dude.. of course they had "support". But not voluntary.

Germany had large segments of the population firmly supporting Hitler but most Germans I think were decent people who might have supported Hitler in the past but came to realize the futility of the Nazi regime and prayed for the end of the national nightmare. Wartime Japanese society, however, was on the whole extremely twisted and sadistic, including the civilian segments of the population. For centuries traditional Japanese culture had a huge tolerance for brutality and it was strengthened by the militarist regime.
I beg to differ on Germany. They were traditionally war-like, but in the thirties, it was brought to a height so popular, and so twisted, that I'm convinced that Hitler posoined the majority of German minds with his sick vision of universal supremacy. The worst part, however, was that it was incurable for most Germans.

Well since you asked twice,(New Anthrus)I will reply at your hoax. First you make to much assumptions with your plan about giving South Am. land at Germans and your ghostships on the River Plate.

Second, perhaps you had heared in one of my former posts (Silly mountain Walks) about the Graf Spee wich lies on the botom of the sea, just before the river plate estuary. your immagination brought you far away from the facts.

The pocket battle ship Graf Spee was followed since days by Brittish warships, under wich the Ajax in the Southern Atlantic where it acted as a raider against Brittish and alied ships. After it was spoted and hit in a first battle, it sat course to Montevideo to make small repairs.(tolerated for 24 hours for all involved nations in war according to law then). While in Montevideo, the Britts had brought in some more ships and it was obvious for Graf Spees commander that he had to go in neutral captivity and scuttle his ship.

So he saild out in a desperate try to give his ship the last chance to make it. But he lost and blew up the ship.

That is a complete diferent story then your hoax that you try to sell here in your anti German propaganda. BTW, there were no ships, just one, the Graf Spee and it never was on the river (a battleship like the Graf Spee, simply can not sail on that river)
One ship sent there when the fleet was needed elsewhere was strong evidence of designs on South America. It was most likely a reconaisance mission, perhaps even meant for a pre-invasion check-up.

One ship sent there when the fleet was needed elsewhere was strong evidence of designs on South America. It was most likely a reconaisance mission, perhaps even meant for a pre-invasion check-up.
No you simpelton. The Graf Spee was a merchant raider prowling the atlantic and indian ocean for British merchant ships. And the rest I already answerd on the previouse page.

No you simpelton. The Graf Spee was a merchant raider prowling the atlantic and indian ocean for British merchant ships. And the rest I already answerd on the previouse page.
I don't care what it was. The point was that Hitler, and the rest of Germany, had obvious designs to murder every non-German man, woman, and child, and would not stop until they did. They didn't surrender during the war, but fought until the very end. They were the pure essence of evil, and the only way to defeat them was to kill the murderers. Sadly, we didn't, nor did we make them pay.

I beg to differ on Germany. They were traditionally war-like, but in the thirties, it was brought to a height so popular, and so twisted, that I'm convinced that Hitler posoined the majority of German minds with his sick vision of universal supremacy. The worst part, however, was that it was incurable for most Germans.
The NSDAP originally was the nationalist working class party. Consider them the ideal choice for the poor worker in the 1930s and you might see why they had support. The NSDAP did not reveal what later would become their doctrine under Hitler, in the earlier years before they got to power. Hitler changed the NSDAP into his personal tool and the original meaning of that party was removed.

I don't care what it was. The point was that Hitler, and the rest of Germany, had obvious designs to murder every non-German man, woman, and child, and would not stop until they did. They didn't surrender during the war, but fought until the very end. They were the pure essence of evil, and the only way to defeat them was to kill the murderers. Sadly, we didn't, nor did we make them pay.
Wow. Never realised how dumb you realy are.

The NSDAP originally was the nationalist working class party. Consider them the ideal choice for the poor worker in the 1930s and you might see why they had support. The NSDAP did not reveal what later would become their doctrine under Hitler, in the earlier years before they got to power. Hitler changed the NSDAP into his personal tool and the original meaning of that party was removed.
But that was very early on, not later on. But I have to ask all of the Germans on here what's so wrong about admitting that their ancestors did unspeakable crimes against humanity.

One ship sent there when the fleet was needed elsewhere was strong evidence of designs on South America.

Stop making assumptions against what happened and read my post and take some books about WWII history.

The Graf Spee was a raider against allieed merchantfleet, active in the Southern Atlantic and that is also before South Africa (so now you can say that they wanted to give South African soil at the SS or had invasionplans aso... :rolleyes: ), war and pray ships brought here to the Western part of the S.Atlantic.


It was most likely a reconaisance mission, perhaps even meant for a pre-invasion check-up

This must be the most idiot description of a German raider pocket battleship on internet. It was built to destroy ships and her operation theatre was the South Atlantic.Just that simple.Period.
You watch to much SF. But I find it very pitty that some US posters try to change history for their own propaganda here.

I don't care what it was. The point was that Hitler, and the rest of Germany, had obvious designs to murder every non-German man, woman, and child, and would not stop until they did. They didn't surrender during the war, but fought until the very end. They were the pure essence of evil, and the only way to defeat them was to kill the murderers. Sadly, we didn't, nor did we make them pay.
...
Apparently you didnt read much of what I wrote... too bad, your loss. You'll stay historically ignorant.

Wow. Never realised how dumb you realy are.
But it was true. Your great-grandparents were poisoned by the Nazis, and wanted to raise the swastika on every national capitol in the world. They may have even had plans for Japan after the war.

Wow. Never realised how dumb you realy are.

Best laugh of the day with their thoughts about multiple ships (new Anthrus) and what they were doing ON river Plate :p

But that was very early on, not later on. But I have to ask all of the Germans on here what's so wrong about admitting that their ancestors did unspeakable crimes against humanity.
I dont deny that this happened, but I cannot accept that Germany is being painted as the ultimate evil and the attempts to justify the firebombings of civilian targets or the nuclear bombings of Japan. There is more to history than the black & white you try to make it appear.

...
Apparently you didnt read much of what I wrote... too bad, your loss. You'll stay historically ignorant.

He could learn about Graf Spee, but when the facts are posted by a WWII fanatical , they run away.

But it was true. Your great-grandparents were poisoned by the Nazis, and wanted to raise the swastika on every national capitol in the world. They may have even had plans for Japan after the war.
You are SOOOO full of shit. I can smell it from behind my PC.

This must be the most idiot description of a German raider pocket battleship on internet. It was built to destroy ships and here operation theatre was the South Atlantic.Just that simple.Period.
You watch to much SF. But I find it very pitty that some US posters try to change history for their own propaganda here.
I'm not trying to change it for my own benefit. I want to say that the Germans and Japanese had plans to kill every British, Frenchmen, Chinese, Korean, Russian, Slavic, Latino, Jewish, African, Muslim, American, Indian, and Turkic person alive, because they were fierce believers in the Aryan state. If this wasn't their intention, then why did they try to invade all of Europe and the Meditteranean basin?

But it shows clear intent that Hitler had designs on the US. Let's not forget, btw, how there were German ships in the Rio de la Plata. He had one eye on Europe, but the other eye was on the world. Once he defeated the world militarily, I'm sure the SS would've done away with them, and all of the sick Germans could live on their 10,000 sq mi. plots of land.

Eat this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=48823&highlight=graf+spee

Eat this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=48823&highlight=graf+spee
Don't bother. Purly Euclid is to stupid to understand.

I dont deny that this happened, but I cannot accept that Germany is being painted as the ultimate evil and the attempts to justify the firebombings of civilian targets or the nuclear bombings of Japan. There is more to history than the black & white you try to make it appear.
No one on the Allied side was pure. The Soviets had obvious reasons, and Roosevelt was trying to use the victory to extend his statist policies. However, neither of them wanted to commit mass murder on the scale the Germans and the Japanese wanted to. If that isn't evil, what is?

Eat this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=48823&highlight=graf+spee
What do I care? The Graf Spee was a tool of the murderers, showing up in what were supposed to be neutral waters. That is not normal by any measure.