NationStates Jolt Archive

Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do ..

I've been asking that question myself. My parents have rammed religion down my throat since I was young enough to understand. But now I'm a bit older I realise that the church didn't provide any concrete proof that the earth was created in that way or even that god exists at all. So now I'm agnostic - much to my parents disappointment.

I was raised with christianity but I found out the truth. My parents never forced it upon me. I always thought it were mere stories about people in the past. I think it's good to raise your kids in a sort of christian way. You teach them to love and to forgive and to be honest etc. What is bad about that? NEVER force it though.

It's a common practice to teach little kids to be good or the evil monster with the horns and pitchfork will get them. *nod*

I think it just makes the parents job easier if they can convince their kids into the heaven/hell idea. At the very least, they'll just say "You kids stop misbehaving. If you don't listen to me, you're breaking a commandment, sinning, and you're gonna go to hell!"

My parents were only somewhat religious, and only made us (my brother and I) go to church while we were pretty young. However, they didn't make us listen ^_^ We brought Calvin and Hobbes books to read all day long in there. As I got older and more aware that there were other options out there, I realized that there's no way some religions could co-exist at all. That just caused a problem with my brain, cause if you adamentally believed in your religion, but it happened to be wrong...well, you've got a problem.

So I've always seen religion as just more of a way to keep some people in line.

Parents "ram religioun down kids' throats" because they feel that they know what is right, and want their kids to learn it. Unfortunately for them, this usually has the opposite effect of what was intended. On top of that, the parents are wrong - no one knows exactly what is right.

In a perfect world, people would answer their children's questions much as my mother did - "I beileve blah. Some people believe blah or blah or blah or blah. You have to make your own decision.

When I raise kids, it will be a very interesting situation. I am a Christian, and the man who will be my husband is an atheist. Basically, we will both teach our kids about what we believe, as well as presenting opposing beliefs that we know of (not teach them to believe it, which is different). If the child wishes to visit a Jewish synagogue or a mosque (although I'm pretty sure that non-believers are not allowed in) or any other place of worship, we will take them. When the kid is old enough to make their own decision on the matter, then they will do so and, whether either of us agrees or not, we will respect that decision.

Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do ..

From your grammar, spelling, punctuation, and word choices, you appear to be 11 years old at most.

Now,.. what does that have to do with anything..? Just that the adolescent purporting to speak wisdom is often the adolescent being pissy at having to clean up his/her room.

As to the "meat" of this position statement (that kids should not be "rammed with religion"), it has some merit.

Parents can be as silly as kids.

Those who do not understand their own beliefs should probably not inculcate their kids with silliness.

Then again, they don't know any better, just as the original poster here (Camdean) doesn't know anything whatsoever about religion.

I hate quoteing myself, but sometimes its the only option:

*My children will be home-schooled for the most part, in an effort to allow them to make their own free choice, between my beliefs and My wifes,or to chose their own, and in an attempt to allow them an EDUCATION. No one, not even I, will force a belief on my children.*

BTW My future wife is a Christian.

Future this, future that...my wife IS a christian (I'm a recently outed atheist but have suspected for years). On top of that, my family goes to church and so does the rest of her's (her father went to seminary school, yikes!). It's actually not that bad since Sunday mornings I have the place to myself, as well as Saturday nights when her dad has Bible study. Makes me laugh though, studying a book so much with no evidence as to whether the stories are true!

My parents are both pastors. My dad is Southern Baptist and my mom is Disciples of Christ. I was spanked if I refused to go to church, and then I still had to go. I have recently started hating my parents form of Christianity because they hate gays, but I'm bi. They don't know it.

Kids should not be forced to listen to any religion. It should be a complete choice of the child.

I've been asking that question myself. My parents have rammed religion down my throat since I was young enough to understand. But now I'm a bit older I realise that the church didn't provide any concrete proof that the earth was created in that way or even that god exists at all. So now I'm agnostic - much to my parents disappointment.

Mate im glad you replied cause ppl would think imjust trying to wind up religous ppl - Its a point thats bothered me for ages.

From your grammar, spelling, punctuation, and word choices, you appear to be 11 years old at most.

Now,.. what does that have to do with anything..? Just that the adolescent purporting to speak wisdom is often the adolescent being pissy at having to clean up his/her room.

As to the "meat" of this position statement (that kids should not be "rammed with religion"), it has some merit.

Parents can be as silly as kids.

Those who do not understand their own beliefs should probably not inculcate their kids with silliness.

Then again, they don't know any better, just as the original poster here (Camdean) doesn't know anything whatsoever about religion.


WTF

WTF
He/She is a parent. Don't listen

I hate quoteing myself, but sometimes its the only option:

*My children will be home-schooled for the most part, in an effort to allow them to make their own free choice, between my beliefs and My wifes,or to chose their own, and in an attempt to allow them an EDUCATION. No one, not even I, will force a belief on my children.*

BTW My future wife is a Christian.


this is the way i was brought up although i wish my mum n dad had talked about it to me a bit- lol i went crazy when someone said a satan existed LOL - got over it easy though - Its all about being loving, taking care of the youth teaching them our wrongs into rights etc ..

The real parents of today should be well away from the fantasy side of life LOL and just take care of them kids - Im 22

I think kids should be of the age to realize the consequences and all sides of the religion they choose to follow instead of it being jammed down their throat via compulsory years in a private religious-affiliated school.

just for the record i respect religious people as long as they just be good- which basically leads to - forget religion just be GOOD

We all the know the rights and wrongs and it ISNT hard to teach the kids this is it ?

It is the responsibility of parents to teach their children the essentials of life. For Christian parents, this includes teaching them about their faith. It should be up to the children themselves as to whether they want to assume the same faith, though, as religion, real religion, is not something that can be forced.

Oh, and calling groups of people "unstable" because they subscribe to this or that system of belief is just stupid and bigotted. Don't do it.

Geez just step away from the fabtasy and realise if we dont start getting a grip we are gonna have to endure more horrific tormenting scenes like 9/11 and the russia school thing..

I mean whats religion got to do with making a better youth - nothing its turning them into what we have been not what we should be ...

Forgetting the fantasy is soo easy

teaching kids from an early age about a certain religion, is brainwashing. They should have the choice made by themselves and nobody else.

Oh did i mention about ireland bombing england all through my youth making it all seem pretty UNSTABLE due to religion ...

What fun that was oh yeah

Edit:- Brainwashing just because you think the fantasy is real is soo bad man it makes me sick

well i AM a parent
my son is 18 and just started college

i saw no reason to teach him something i didnt believe.
so i didnt

my own mother made her children go to church until they were too big to force. turns out she was never really very much of a believer. i have never understood why she went through the trouble of teaching her children something she didnt really believe.

if one is a religious person, it is ones duty to teach their children that faith. what? im gonna send my kid to hell out of some notion of being open minded?

parents make us do lots of things that we dont like or agree with. after a while we are adults and we can then make our own decisions. thats how life works.

Again, you're stereotyping. The killers tend to make the news, but the religious people I see on a day-to-day basis are excelling in their studies (even in non-religious schools), dedicating themselves to their jobs (I know a lot of Christians who are social workers) and the well being of their families, in short, being the antithesis of the stereotype you are presenting.

well i AM a parent
my son is 18 and just started college

i saw no reason to teach him something i didnt believe.
so i didnt

my own mother made her children go to church until they were too big to force. turns out she was never really very much of a believer. i have never understood why she went through the trouble of teaching her children something she didnt really believe.

if one is a religious person, it is ones duty to teach their children that faith. what? im gonna send my kid to hell out of some notion of being open minded?

parents make us do lots of things that we dont like or agree with. after a while we are adults and we can then make our own decisions. thats how life works.

But why dont the parents stop brainwashing the kids ????

A lot better for the kids i say

Again, you're stereotyping. The killers tend to make the news, but the religious people I see on a day-to-day basis are excelling in their studies (even in non-religious schools), dedicating themselves to their jobs (I know a lot of Christians who are social workers) and the well being of their families, in short, being the antithesis of the stereotype you are presenting.


yeah and imagine the kids hadn't been brainwashed and were just taught to be good, loving and caring then there would be less trouble and even more students learning how to help this world..

I am God.

Mommy said so.

I am God.

Mommy said so.

LoL funny thats what my mom said the lying toe-rag

LoL funny thats what my mom said the lying toe-rag


My Mommy is better than your mommy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
From your grammar, spelling, punctuation, and word choices, you appear to be 11 years old at most.

Now,.. what does that have to do with anything..? Just that the adolescent purporting to speak wisdom is often the adolescent being pissy at having to clean up his/her room.

As to the "meat" of this position statement (that kids should not be "rammed with religion"), it has some merit.

Parents can be as silly as kids.

Those who do not understand their own beliefs should probably not inculcate their kids with silliness.

Then again, they don't know any better, just as the original poster here (Camdean) doesn't know anything whatsoever about religion.

WTF

I imagine you meant "WTF?"... though I could be wrong. You're not very clear kiddo.

Your original post:
"Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do .."

You seem to be saying "religion is useless in teaching kids 'goodness'". This is too broad, as there are examples of religion actually teaching "goodness".

The way that people teach other's to be good is ALWAYS a religious choice, as "good" is a matter of belief (based on "whatever"), and a person's beliefs in total is their "religion", regardless of their professed "denomination".

If you find fault in some parent's teachings, I suggest you inform them, specifically, where they're wrong, as they might appreciate the education.

If you've just got an 11 year-old's hard-on to be rebellious in general, and anti-religion in particular, then keep up the blanket indictment of the "evilness" of religion.

And using the language better would help your "cause" enormously.

I imagine you meant "WTF?"... though I could be wrong. You're not very clear kiddo.

Your original post:
"Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do .."

You seem to be saying "religion is useless in teaching kids 'goodness'". This is too broad, as there are examples of religion actually teaching "goodness".

The way that people teach other's to be good is ALWAYS a religious choice, as "good" is a matter of belief (based on "whatever"), and a person's beliefs in total is their "religion", regardless of their professed "denomination".

If you find fault in some parent's teachings, I suggest you inform them, specifically, where they're wrong, as they might appreciate the education.

If you've just got an 11 year-old's hard-on to be rebellious in general, and anti-religion in particular, then keep up the blanket indictment of the "evilness" of religion.

And using the language better would help your "cause" enormously.


And you need this book to teach the kids good well done m8..

Im sorry but i know for a fact that teaching them just to be good is so much better for them - i have loads of freinds who have kids man - and ive seen them grow up without it and beleive me they aint that bad

I imagine you meant "WTF?"... though I could be wrong. You're not very clear kiddo.


You seem to be saying "religion is useless in teaching kids 'goodness'". This is too broad, as there are examples of religion actually teaching "goodness".

The way that people teach other's to be good is ALWAYS a religious choice, as "good" is a matter of belief (based on "whatever"), and a person's beliefs in total is their "religion", regardless of their professed "denomination".

If you find fault in some parent's teachings, I suggest you inform them, specifically, where they're wrong, as they might appreciate the education.

If you've just got an 11 year-old's hard-on to be rebellious in general, and anti-religion in particular, then keep up the blanket indictment of the "evilness" of religion.

And using the language better would help your "cause" enormously.

I disagree. A person's belief is their belief. The practice of it is their religion, and how it is practiced (dogma) is the denomination...and there are very few parents in this world who would appreciate attempts at educating them as to religion. In my experience, they take great offense...usually because they feel it is their duty to educate YOU.

I think you should stop talking about the children's moral, as I don't see any connection between moral and religion. Children should (in my oppinion) be taught to do whatever they think is right, only because they want to (and because it makes them progress). I don't like the idea of human only acting morally because they fear a hell.

kids should be brought up with a brief knowledge of a variety of religions.. however, they shouldnt be pushed into a religion.... and they should also know that they can choose not to be religious.. athiest i think its called? anyway yeah... thats my opinion

I think you should stop talking about the children's moral, as I don't see any connection between moral and religion. Children should (in my oppinion) be taught to do whatever they think is right, only because they want to (and because it makes them progress). I don't like the idea of human only acting morally because they fear a hell.

Moral can be effected by such things as "there is a devil" - this made me think

'Geez what place this is' may sound simple but its what i thought when i was nearly brainwashed myself ..

If the bible is so true and the whole jesus sags was soo good and it inspired - then why dont these people who soley beleive in it do what he did - man what the world needs is something GOOD to happen not another masacre :(

(My space bar is broken - man cleaned it twice n it still sticks LOL)

__> TOPIC

My wife and I are expecting our first child this fall. I'm an agnostic, was raised Catholic, but fell away from it fairly early on. She seems to be vaguely deistic. She believes in A god, but not the Christian one. She likes to go to the local ecumenical Christian church because it falls within her social ideas of "normal" I suppose, but then gets somewhat put off by the specifics.

I feel strongly, and I think she's come around to my view on this, that our child(ren) should be introduced to religion, but not practice it. I'd prefer to not have our kid(s) go to any worship service until and unless they can understand, at least at a base level, that there are a lot of big questions that nobody knows the answer to, and that a lot of people believe in X or Y because this gives them answers that they understand and accept.

It's also important to introduce ethics. Not morality -- that's different and 99% of the time it's a religious based set of restrictions on behaviour. A lot of rules of morality coincide with those of ethics (don't kill, don't steal, etc.) but a lot of others don't (wear a veil; don't eat pork; go to this building every Sunday to eat a cracker). The ethics of a person are really what's important, because when you know what's right or wrong without it having to be TOLD to you, you're more likely to pick the right answer in the situations where the people or book that tell you don't have a response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
I imagine you meant "WTF?"... though I could be wrong. You're not very clear kiddo.

Your original post:
"Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do .."

You seem to be saying "religion is useless in teaching kids 'goodness'". This is too broad, as there are examples of religion actually teaching "goodness".

The way that people teach other's to be good is ALWAYS a religious choice, as "good" is a matter of belief (based on "whatever"), and a person's beliefs in total is their "religion", regardless of their professed "denomination".

If you find fault in some parent's teachings, I suggest you inform them, specifically, where they're wrong, as they might appreciate the education.

If you've just got an 11 year-old's hard-on to be rebellious in general, and anti-religion in particular, then keep up the blanket indictment of the "evilness" of religion.

And using the language better would help your "cause" enormously.




And you need this book to teach the kids good well done m8..

Im sorry but i know for a fact that teaching them just to be good is so much better for them - i have loads of freinds who have kids man - and ive seen them grow up without it and beleive me they aint that bad

I'm not personally a christian. I am/was taught by my elders through "simple" cultural stories. While we have a body of "story prototypes", all stories are made up (usually on the spot) to illustrate something via metaphor.

No one simply "teaches them to be good" without knowing what "good" means.

And the knowledge of the meaning of "good" is a cultural tradition,.. in your culture (your sub-culture), and in everyone else's.

Your "book" is just as valid as mine, and just as valid as the christian's.

..But you DO have a "book".

Amen, brother.

I'm not personally a christian. I am/was taught by my elders through "simple" cultural stories. While we have a body of "story prototypes", all stories are made up (usually on the spot) to illustrate something via metaphor.

No one simply "teaches them to be good" without knowing what "good" means.

And the knowledge of the meaning of "good" is a cultural tradition,.. in your culture (your sub-culture), and in everyone else's.

Your "book" is just as valid as mine, and just as valid as the christian's.

..But you DO have a "book".

You know what good is right, and the differnece between good n bad - Well teach that to your kids man - teach what you know and learn ??

Im sorry if this offends anyone ..

But if you cant teach your kids right and wrong without a book that cant be proven to be true and in my view is fantasy then what GOOD is there in that ???????????

Personaly, I think the child should be able to choose weither to subscribe
to a religion or not...

It is the parent's responsibility to show the child that there are many options...

The parents should also make a point in showing that not all problems have
'black' or 'white' answers... usually there is a 'grey' areas as well...

An example of this could be research on the cloning of human beings...

"White" or 'Good'= Cloning of humans is immoral and must not be done...
"Grey" or 'Side ignored'= If perfected, we could breed artificial slaves for cheap labor!
"Black" or 'Heard Opposition to White'= Organs could be grown in a lab for use in transplants...
Think of the lives we'll save! Also, research in such areas may lead to medical breakthroughs!


In any case... It is bad to teach old tales or myths as Fact...

"Two boys were walking home from Sunday school after hearing a fiery sermon about Satan.
One said to the other, "I'm really scared about all this Satan stuff."
The other boy replied, "I wouldn't worry about it. You know how Santa Claus turned out. It's probably just your dad again."

Moral can be effected by such things as "there is a devil" - this made me think

'Geez what place this is' may sound simple but its what i thought when i was nearly brainwashed myself ..

If the bible is so true and the whole jesus sags was soo good and it inspired - then why dont these people who soley beleive in it do what he did - man what the world needs is something GOOD to happen not another masacre :(
It is sad if we're truly controlled by terror *coughUSAcough*. It makes all selfless actions selfish, as whatever we do we do for ourselves only.

It is sad if we're truly controlled by terror *coughUSAcough*. It makes all selfless actions selfish, as whatever we do we do for ourselves only.


America NO mate dont blame them - Religion - ive seen tare us apart my whole life - USA in ireland no m8 not at all


Im sorry if this offends anyone ..

But if you cant teach your kids right and wrong without a book that cant be proven to be true and in my view is fantasy then what GOOD is there in that ???????????

This may seem sad but this point needs to be listened to before another religous dude goes on about the bible shows good..

Kids listen to the ones who LOVE them not a damn book For god sake man

But why dont the parents stop brainwashing the kids ????

A lot better for the kids i say
because if we dont brainwash our kids

about everything in society

they will grow up to be rude, antisocial, sociopathic losers. my bridge club will NOT be impressed with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
I'm not personally a christian. I am/was taught by my elders through "simple" cultural stories. While we have a body of "story prototypes", all stories are made up (usually on the spot) to illustrate something via metaphor.

No one simply "teaches them to be good" without knowing what "good" means.

And the knowledge of the meaning of "good" is a cultural tradition,.. in your culture (your sub-culture), and in everyone else's.

Your "book" is just as valid as mine, and just as valid as the christian's.

..But you DO have a "book".


You know what good is right, and the differnece between good n bad - Well teach that to your kids man - teach what you know and learn ??

Is that a question..?

Is it "good" to kill another person..?
Is it "good" to kill someone about to kill you..?
Is it "good" to kill someone about to kill your child..?

You resent your "brainwashing" very much. You feel "violated" by being forced to have "beliefs" that you don't believe. That is a VERY reasonable position..!

A child is at the mercy of their parents in almost all regards, and parents that do not know what they truly believe and yet force those "beliefs" on their children are being habitually lazy or worse.

The "abolition" of religion to "rectify" this situation is a juvenile proposition, because it's not religion that is at fault,.. it's individual parents (and parent-like substitutes).

When you say "You know what good and bad is, right?", what you're saying is "good and bad are always self evident and obvious", when that is simply not the case at all times.

Also...

What is your definition of 'good' and 'bad'?

From my perspective they appear as subjective terms...

Also consider this, Good or Bad for whom?
Yourself?
Society?

What can be considered BAD by some people can be considered GOOD by others...

Examples...

Player A= It is a 'good' thing our troops are beating player "B"!
Player B= NO! It is a 'bad' thing player "A" is beating us!

or

A:Eating Animals is WRONG! Why kill defenceless creatures... I only eat plants...
B: Defenceless creatures? WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK PLANTS ARE!?!
A: But animals have feeling... You shouldn't hurt them you murderer...
B: Just because plants are unable to scream or even cry out when you kill
doesn't mean they don't have feeling... You only protect the animals
because you think they're cute...
A: NO I DON'T! At least I don't think it's allright to cram all those animals in a
small area for JUST so they can be MANUFACTURED! *shudder*
B: Have you ever heard of FARMS? Plants go through the same thing...

or even...

Public nudity is WRONG! It shouldn't be aloud to happen!
Why is it wrong?

because if we dont brainwash our kids

about everything in society

they will grow up to be rude, antisocial, sociopathic losers. my bridge club will NOT be impressed with that.


What ??

So you would teach them to be rude lol -- why not teach them not to be -wait you need the bible for that LOL a fantasy novel 2000 years old


Geez its the love from the parents that does it

America NO mate dont blame them - Religion - ive seen tare us apart my whole life - USA in ireland no m8 not at all
I don't blame a people as I don't think steriotyping a nation does any good.
But the American government is controlling its people through terror or fear for terror (which is also terror). It has been used all the way through history and proven very effective from time to time.

Terror means control and control removes choices.
I think my (unborn)children should be allowed to chose and I'll keep myself from terrorizing them (as much as that's possible).

First of all, brainwashing occurs with everything, not just religion.

Athiests who teach their children there is no God are brainwashing their children. I have seen children who enjoy attending children's/youth programs at churches but don't because their parents don't approve. That's just as bad.

Parents also let their children watch TV loaded with commercials, whose only purpose is brainwashing. Isn't allowing your child to get brainwashed for hours a day by corporations intent on selling Yugi-oh worse than bringing them to church once a week?

What about at public schools? A child is brainwashed there. Less and less religious opinions of any sort are allowed to be expressed there, as athiests try to make their non-belief the only known accepted and taught belief. For example the ban of religious symbols in public schools in France. One of the fundamental rights of people (freedom of religion) is being violated so school children can be indoctrinated with an athiest world view.

So why don't these parents try to stop brainwashing their children?

Second, religious parents are trying to do what's best for their children. Bringing them up to know morality, and more importantly, trying to secure their soul for eternity. A parent who believes in an afterlife is only showing their love for the child by trying to increase their chances of being better off in the afterlife.

Which is worse: a parent raising their child in their religion in the chance it is right and maybe saving their souls, or a parent raising their child athiestically and having a chance they are wrong, and putting their children's immortal souls in jeopardy?

Third, religion is not the evil thing you make it out to be.

As with any belief, whether it be religious, enviromental, political, economic, or scientific, there is a chance of some people going extremist. With religions it especially risky because it deals with the most fundamental and most powerful questions of man.

But people have killed each other for many reasons including: Athiesm, religion, race, politics, money, the enviroment, power, convenience, hate, anger, and sometimes just for fun. Religion is not the reason people kill eachother. People kill each other because they are people. Violence is as much a part of human nature as sex, and emotions.

Religion is usually a betterment for society.

The removal of religion from society has led to the most destructive governments in history. The Athiestic Communisms of the USSR, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, East Germany, etc. Have lead to more deaths than all the religious wars, persicution, inquisitions, etc. combined.

Most Western democracies, among the most free, and richest nations in the world had their democracies shaped with much influence from religion.


And someone mentioned something about Christians hating gays. That is not (usually) true, or at least shouldn't be, but their are always people who pervert anything to their own ends/bigotry.

A Christian should believe homosexual acts are a sin, but shouldn't hate homosexuals. It is just one of many sexual sins including (in no particular order): adultry, fornication, masturbation, lust, bestiality, pediophilia, rape, and incest. And if you can show me one male who has said he hasn't lusted, then I'll show you someone who is either a liar or a eunuch. Seeing as everybody is guilty of at least that one, they have no right to hate you for being gay, and point this out to them.

If any Christian is being hateful towards you because you are gay just ask him; "have you ever lusted after someone not your wife?" If he says yes than tell him that according to the Bible he is guilty of adultry with his heart and is in no position to hate you. If he says no, ignore him for he is a hypocritical liar.

So anyway, religion is not as evil as some would make it out to be. Don't let yourself be ruled by bigotry to anybody; whether they be Christian, gay, Muslim, Jew, of a different race, or of a different political affiliation.

As for brainwashing and propoganda, it is a natural part of life. Everybody has their own agenda they are trying to propogate, whether it is with good or evil intentions, from love or from hate. Everything you hear is someone else's viewpoint. No one can completely rid themselves of their own way of thinking. But we can be open-minded. Question everything. Don't take everything at face value, and come to your own decisions on important matters and hope that you are right.

As for brainwashing children: every parent can't help but do it no matter how hard they try, as their actions and beliefs even if not "forced" upon their children will still have a great influence.

A child should be able to withstand an hour of church a week, and when contrasted with the 30 odd hours they spend at the agnostic/athiestic public school that most children go to, or the 10 hours they spend watching TV, is it really all that much brainwashing comparitively.

The removal of religion from society has led to the most destructive governments in history. The Athiestic Communisms of the USSR, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, East Germany, etc. Have lead to more deaths than all the religious wars, persicution, inquisitions, etc. combined.
Well, I highly doubt atheism destroyed Vietnam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafeon
It is sad if we're truly controlled by terror *coughUSAcough*. It makes all selfless actions selfish, as whatever we do we do for ourselves only.




America NO mate dont blame them - Religion - ive seen tare us apart my whole life - USA in ireland no m8 not at all



Quote:
Originally Posted by Camdean
Im sorry if this offends anyone ..

But if you cant teach your kids right and wrong without a book that cant be proven to be true and in my view is fantasy then what GOOD is there in that ???????????


This may seem sad but this point needs to be listened to before another religous dude goes on about the bible shows good..

Kids listen to the ones who LOVE them not a damn book For god sake man


.."Kids listen to the ones who LOVE them not a damn book For god sake man"..

That's right,... and the book, like the knife or the gun, is not the party to blame.

You are simply majorly pissed off at your (and by extension any other) religion, and see no good in it/them whatsoever.

Instead of railing damnation at religion, why don't you educate (yourself and others) about the good and the bad within religion, as you see it.

Your religious declaration of "Damn all religion as the work of EVIL!" is rather reminiscent of the very people you damn.

RIght answer me this weither you like what i said or not if your being serious about this ...

Do we not know the difference between good and bad ?? (on a scale we all have a level of uderstanding for sure)

Im sorry if this offends anyone ..

But if you cant teach your kids right and wrong without a book that cant be proven to be true and in my view is fantasy then what GOOD is there in that ???????????

oh if it were only relgion, camdean.

people teach their kids all kinds of crap in order to keep them in line.

i got these 2 examples from my sister from when she was a preschool teacher

she took her class on a walk, one kid didnt step in the puddles because her mother taught her that there are SNAKES IN MUD PUDDLES!
one kid was terrified of pinecones because his mom taught him that PINE CONES BITE!!

my own dear motherinlaw the other night told her 2 year old great grandson that he couldnt go outside because there was a BOOGEYMAN OUT THERE!

think of all the superstitions you know, many of them are a form of child control.

dont rock a rocker with no one in it.... avoid disaster when it tips over

break a mirror and 7 years bad luck...those things used to be VERY expensive

dont open an umbrella indoors.... that way you wont poke your sisters eye out with one of the spokes.

instead of dealing with children with honesty and authority, some people prefer to scare them into submission thinking it will be easier. the poor fools end up with uncontrollable brats who believe nothing.

As I happen to be pregnant with my first child at this moment, the question of "how to teach my religion" to the little bambino does cause quite a bit of consternation. It's not like I was EVER raised in a religious atmosphere. However, I was exposed to Catholicism and some kind of other Christian cult, and I'm totally with Camdean on the whole "brainwashing" thing. My husband was more exposed than I was to several different religions, and ended up not interested in any of them. We are both now thoroughly and resolutely Pagan, me more demonstratively than he. Will we teach our kids our beliefs? Sure. And we'll teach our children ethics the old fashioned way -- with stories and myths, fables and fairy tales. We will provide a BASE for our kids to work from. We will also teach them ABOUT other religions (so my husband tells me :rolleyes: ) so they may make their own choice when they get older. I was actually allowed to make this choice myself, so I shouldn't deny my kids their right. We'll see. :D

So we'll teach ethics the best way we know how, as any good parent would. And pray daily we don't accidentally raise a Christian! :p

Kids listen to the ones who LOVE them not a damn book For god sake man

That's right,... and the book, like the knife or the gun, is not the party to blame.

You are simply majorly pissed off at your (and by extension any other) religion, and see no good in it/them whatsoever.

Instead of railing damnation at religion, why don't you educate (yourself and others) about the good and the bad within religion, as you see it.

Your religious declaration of "Damn all religion as the work of EVIL!" is rather reminiscent of the very people you damn.

No what im saying is stop teaching the kids about a fantasy novel 2000 year old if you really care about them you would just want them to know the good n bad - a severe diference that needs to be taught .. It can be taught without a book -LOL You have it in you to teach them what you have learned - i know the bible wasnt evil man - but its old fashioned a couple of thousand of years lol cant we just do what jesus would do and teach good ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If you really beleive in the bible you will understand

Which is worse: a parent raising their child in their religion in the chance it is right and maybe saving their souls, or a parent raising their child athiestically and having a chance they are wrong, and putting their children's immortal souls in jeopardy?

Both are equally bad. A parent should present their own views, as well as the views of others and, when the child is old enough, make sure that the child makes his/her *own* decision.

The removal of religion from society has led to the most destructive governments in history. The Athiestic Communisms of the USSR, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, East Germany, etc. Have lead to more deaths than all the religious wars, persicution, inquisitions, etc. combined.

There were more problems than just atheism in those countries. This is especially evident when you realize that religion was not removed from all society, only the ruling class. Anyone who was lower class and religious was pretty much left alone.

A Christian should believe homosexual acts are a sin, but shouldn't hate homosexuals. It is just one of many sexual sins including (in no particular order): adultry, fornication, masturbation, lust, bestiality, pediophilia, rape, and incest.

I must ask - are you Jesus Christ? If you are not, then you can only state what you *believe* Christians should or should not do - you have no standing on which to state any absolutes on what they should or should not do. Last time I checked, Christ never said anything about homosexuality (at least in the documents we have).

Well, I highly doubt atheism destroyed Vietnam.

You're right. From what I remember, the French owned Vietnam as a colonial possession. A group of communists fought against this with support from the USSR, and the French pulled out. The Americans, wanting to avoid another communist nation from appearing, entered the Veitnam War and after a bloody struggle America pulled out and the Communists took over. The communists than slaughtered about 40,000 defenceless people, if I remember correctly. This might not be wholly accurate, and is certainly not all-encompasing, but it is my understanding of the situation. So teh Communists didn't destroy Vietnam, but they played a part in it, and did murder many people.

I also forgot to mention North Korea, which is also a murderous and brutally repressive Communist regime.

I think a large part of the reason why parents try to bring their children up in their own faith is simply becuse they believe that their faith is the truth. As an example, let's say a Christian couple have a child. Being Christian, they will believe in the existence of God and, presumably, also of Satan and the related ideas of Heaven and Hell. They will therefore want to pass these ideas on to their child in the same way that they would pass on the virtue of looking each way before crossing the road and not taking sweets from strangers; to them, it's simply looking out for the child's welfare.

In fact, the above example is pretty close to the way I was brought up; my sister and I were both taught stories from the Bible when we were small and made to go to church, although that eventually broke down. I'm now an atheist, simply because I favour science and find religion explains too litte, but I don't blame my parents for trying to bring me up in their faith because it's what they thought was right and they wanted the best for me.

Should I have ever children, I'm going to try and take the approach others have mentioned - essentially, "some people believe this and some people believe that and some people believe the other. It's up for you to choose, but you should respect someone's beliefs even if they're not the same as your own". To do otherwise would be unfair to the child.

in fact while this whole thing has me on a bit of a rant....

for all you who are intending to be parents or are parents of small children

NEVER LIE TO YOU KIDS

it makes them crazy. they need something to depend on in this world and it has to be YOU. if you lie about one thing, how can they believe you about the rest?

if you make a mistake about something you told them admit it. they can deal with you being wrong, they cant deal with you being a liar.

when it comes to the little cultural lies. like santa claus, when the subject comes up, just say "everyone believes in santa at christmas" or "people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa" or "we like to pretend he exists" dont jump through hoops to keep your kid believing in an obvious lie, they wont respect you for it.

you dont have to tell them EVERY truth. especially when they are too young to handle it. but everything you DO tell them should be true.

you are the rock that you child relies on for strength. dont mess that up by telling easy lies.

No what im saying is stop teaching the kids about a fantasy novel 2000 year old if you really care about them you would just want them to know the good n bad - a severe diference that needs to be taught .. It can be taught without a book -LOL You have it in you to teach them what you have learned - i know the bible wasnt evil man - but its old fashioned a couple of thousand of years lol cant we just do what jesus would do and teach good ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If you really beleive in the bible you will understand

Stay on the topic please ..

Sorry for moaning guys lol

When i was a child i was taken to church with my parents not forced to go. If i didn't want to go i didn't have to. Now that i have children of my own i have told them they can go to church if & when they decide. My wife & i do not go to church, not that i don't believe in God. It's because i don't need a buildiing to show that i believe in a certain deity.
My kids do not have any idea of what i believe as i do not tell them. What they have learnt about religion they have learnt at school. Wedo not have a bible in the house but my eldest has now started asking me about religion so i might now have to fork for one.
I want my kids to thinkfor themselves not as i think. They are their own persons, they are not me.

in fact while this whole thing has me on a bit of a rant....

for all you who are intending to be parents or are parents of small children

NEVER LIE TO YOU KIDS

it makes them crazy. they need something to depend on in this world and it has to be YOU. if you lie about one thing, how can they believe you about the rest?

if you make a mistake about something you told them admit it. they can deal with you being wrong, they cant deal with you being a liar.

when it comes to the little cultural lies. like santa claus, when the subject comes up, just say "everyone believes in santa at christmas" or "people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa" or "we like to pretend he exists" dont jump through hoops to keep your kid believing in an obvious lie, they wont respect you for it.

you dont have to tell them EVERY truth. especially when they are too young to handle it. but everything you DO tell them should be true.

you are the rock that you child relies on for strength. dont mess that up by telling easy lies.


Exactly dude- teach them what you have learned i mean even for the best of us we all still have made mistakes lest make sure our kids dont - Pretty easy if you ask me...

At this point in life I am far more concerned with teaching children proper grammar and spelling, not to mention respect of punctuation, than worrying about good and evil.

Religion sets up a framework for society. And while I'm not really for forcing kids to go to church or heavy indoctrination of any religious creed until a certain age, I understand that framework is vital to the success of any individual.

Personally, I'd rather see a little more respect for the poor comma and capital letters and hoping that the understanding of language allows them to express themselves successfully; thus avoiding pent-up frustrations that lead to violence.

God be damned, respect the comma. ;)

RIght answer me this weither you like what i said or not if your being serious about this ...

Do we not know the difference between good and bad ?? (on a scale we all have a level of uderstanding for sure)

Another adolescent line of reasoning... which is fine... as it's coming FROM an adolescent (of who's actual age I don't really care).

I like very much the idea that parents should teach their kids "good" and "bad".

And NO,.. we do not all know, or agree, on what "good" and "bad" means..!

To teach them these important things BADLY, according to "your" conception of "good" and "bad", is an evil to you...

..just as it is to me using "my" conception of "good" and "bad". So we agree on that part. :)

But, your stance that "the christian bible [whichever one]" is an utterly worthless document that pertetuates evil is an absolutely childish nonsensical one.

in fact while this whole thing has me on a bit of a rant....

for all you who are intending to be parents or are parents of small children

NEVER LIE TO YOU KIDS

it makes them crazy. they need something to depend on in this world and it has to be YOU. if you lie about one thing, how can they believe you about the rest?

if you make a mistake about something you told them admit it. they can deal with you being wrong, they cant deal with you being a liar.

when it comes to the little cultural lies. like santa claus, when the subject comes up, just say "everyone believes in santa at christmas" or "people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa" or "we like to pretend he exists" dont jump through hoops to keep your kid believing in an obvious lie, they wont respect you for it.

you dont have to tell them EVERY truth. especially when they are too young to handle it. but everything you DO tell them should be true.

you are the rock that you child relies on for strength. dont mess that up by telling easy lies.

Excellently well put. Bravo! :)

I think you should stop talking about the children's moral, as I don't see any connection between moral and religion. Children should (in my oppinion) be taught to do whatever they think is right, only because they want to (and because it makes them progress). I don't like the idea of human only acting morally because they fear a hell.

Religion doesn't neccessarily equate to fear tactics. There are people who feel that religion serves as a beacon of hope not neccessarily a fear-factor..

No I'm not Jesus Christ and to state that I am would be blasphemy.

You are correct that I can only state what I believe Christians should or should not do. But one of the fundamentals of being a Christian is to believe in the Bible in at least some way.

Christ himself did not mention homosexuality specifically, from what I remember. But he endorsed the Old Testament, which did have prohibitions against homosexuality. As well, there are prohibitions against homosexuality in some of Paul's letters, also a part of the Bible.

Therefore, because part of the definition of being a Christian is to believe in the Bible at least a little and the Bible prohibits homosexuality as a sin, a Christian should believe homosexuality is a sin.

As well the Bible teaches that all have sinned and to love your neighbor. So to hate someone because they have sinned is hypocritical for a Christian and is to be rebuked, as hypocrisy is a sin like any other, and often recieved special scorn from Christ, according to the Bible. As the saying goes, hate the sin not the sinner.

What ??

So you would teach them to be rude lol -- why not teach them not to be -wait you need the bible for that LOL a fantasy novel 2000 years old


Geez its the love from the parents that does it
i believe you misunderstood my post

my point is that everything we do to raise our children is a form of brainwashing. its not just the bible.

everything is

and it is utterly necessary to indoctrinate our children into the requirements of our society if they are going to grow up to be reasonable adults

as to the bible, if you are a very religious christian you will use your religion as a tool to teach your children. the bible contains many good stories that illustrate the benefits of good behavior, its also the major tool for learning about jesus. what good christian parent would leave it out?

i believe you misunderstood my post

my point is that everything we do to raise our children is a form of brainwashing. its not just the bible.

everything is

and it is utterly necessary to indoctrinate our children into the requirements of our society if they are going to grow up to be reasonable adults

as to the bible, if you are a very religious christian you will use your religion as a tool to teach your children. the bible contains many good stories that illustrate the benefits of good behavior, its also the major tool for learning about jesus. what good christian parent would leave it out?

No not at all if we teach them what we know it aint brainwashing them - if we teach them a religion based on myth and what other beleive this is brainwashing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Kids listen to the ones who LOVE them not a damn book For god sake man

That's right,... and the book, like the knife or the gun, is not the party to blame.

You are simply majorly pissed off at your (and by extension any other) religion, and see no good in it/them whatsoever.

Instead of railing damnation at religion, why don't you educate (yourself and others) about the good and the bad within religion, as you see it.

Your religious declaration of "Damn all religion as the work of EVIL!" is rather reminiscent of the very people you damn.


No what im saying is stop teaching the kids about a fantasy novel 2000 year old if you really care about them you would just want them to know the good n bad - a severe diference that needs to be taught .. It can be taught without a book -LOL You have it in you to teach them what you have learned - i know the bible wasnt evil man - but its old fashioned a couple of thousand of years lol cant we just do what jesus would do and teach good ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If you really beleive in the bible you will understand

But you see,.. I don't USE the bible,... It's not my culture's "book". :)

But it IS some people's culture's "book".

And why should people give up their culture's "book" simply because you say it's a fiction and old fashioned..? Would you REALLY be that arrogant to deny a culture one of it's defining possesions..?

I could equally say "Camdean does not NEED his right arm, as it can be used for EVIL, and so I COMMAND him/her [probably him] to have it removed!"

How would Jesus teach good,... as he did, perhaps, with stories...?

No I'm not Jesus Christ and to state that I am would be blasphemy.

You are correct that I can only state what I believe Christians should or should not do. But one of the fundamentals of being a Christian is to believe in the Bible in at least some way.

And that belief does not have to be (and cannot logically be) "I believe the Bible is 100% written by God and therefore 100% accurate and true! "Belief in the Bible in at least some way" is a very broad statement.

Christ himself did not mention homosexuality specifically, from what I remember. But he endorsed the Old Testament, which did have prohibitions against homosexuality. As well, there are prohibitions against homosexuality in some of Paul's letters, also a part of the Bible.

The OT also endorses slavery, the murder of rape victims, and genocide. However, through prayer and mediation, I have come to the conclusion that my God does not endorse these things. Included in them is the condemnation of a subset of people with different attractions than the rest of us.

As for Paul, Paul was a Jew, writing from the standpoint of a Jew who believed he knew the identity of the Messiah. It was in the law, so he held to it. The fact that the law was faulty did not occur to him.

Therefore, because part of the definition of being a Christian is to believe in the Bible at least a little and the Bible prohibits homosexuality as a sin, a Christian should believe homosexuality is a sin.

Your logic only follows if you are equating "believe in the Bible at least a little" with "believe in the Bible 100% absolutely" which makes no sense.

But you see,.. I don't USE the bible,... It's not my culture's "book". :)

But it IS some people's culture's "book".

And why should people give up their culture's "book" simply because you say it's a fiction and old fashioned..? Would you REALLY be that arrogant to deny a culture one of it's defining possesions..?

I could equally say "Camdean does not NEED his right arm, as it can be used for EVIL, and so I COMMAND him/her [probably him] to have it removed!"

How would Jesus teach good,... as he did, perhaps, with stories...?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Well for one we need to teach the kids what we know what we think we know..

2. I would be arrogant to ignore what ive seen destroy many lifes in my time - and i mean thousands ( evertime i get 1 massacre out my head another happens )

3. Its so easy to just teach the kids good instead of lying wiat i need to quaote sumfin real good .......................

in fact while this whole thing has me on a bit of a rant....

for all you who are intending to be parents or are parents of small children

NEVER LIE TO YOU KIDS

it makes them crazy. they need something to depend on in this world and it has to be YOU. if you lie about one thing, how can they believe you about the rest?

if you make a mistake about something you told them admit it. they can deal with you being wrong, they cant deal with you being a liar.

when it comes to the little cultural lies. like santa claus, when the subject comes up, just say "everyone believes in santa at christmas" or "people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa" or "we like to pretend he exists" dont jump through hoops to keep your kid believing in an obvious lie, they wont respect you for it.

you dont have to tell them EVERY truth. especially when they are too young to handle it. but everything you DO tell them should be true.

you are the rock that you child relies on for strength. dont mess that up by telling easy lies.


This is the quote (sorry for spelling guys my keyboard is all sticky)

EDIT- no its juice before anyone jumps to any wholly conclusions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashmoria
i believe you misunderstood my post

my point is that everything we do to raise our children is a form of brainwashing. its not just the bible.

everything is

and it is utterly necessary to indoctrinate our children into the requirements of our society if they are going to grow up to be reasonable adults

as to the bible, if you are a very religious christian you will use your religion as a tool to teach your children. the bible contains many good stories that illustrate the benefits of good behavior, its also the major tool for learning about jesus. what good christian parent would leave it out?


No not at all if we teach them what we know it aint brainwashing them - if we teach them a religion based on myth and what other beleive this is brainwashing

OK,... this is proof to me that we are having a discussion with someone incapable of understanding the language as we use it.

..or simply someone pretending to be so.

His/her mind has degenerated into the "I know you are but what am I..!?" phase.

OK,... this is proof to me that we are having a discussion with someone incapable of understanding the language as we use it.

..or simply someone pretending to be so.

His/her mind has degenerated into the "I know you are but what am I..!?" phase.


Everything you said has been like the negative of what ive said questioning it ... read up

Ohh he doesnt understand im superior to this guy - ok m8 get a grip

No not at all if we teach them what we know it aint brainwashing them - if we teach them a religion based on myth and what other beleive this is brainwashing

you are only saying that because you are an atheist. ALL religion is based on myth. its all a human construct. but people sincerely believe it and teach it to their children.

its not wrong, its what people have done since the neanderthals.

surely you realize that when you are taught to be patriotic, thats brainwashing, school spirit is brainwashing, good manners is brainwashing, obedience to traffic laws is brainwashing.

to not share a sincere religious belief with ones children would be impossible. ones religion affects ones whole life. can't leave the baby home alone on sunday morning eh?

In response to people saying that we need to teach our kids "right" and "wrong", Christianity isn't the problem, although it is related.

The problem is that we've all been brainwashed into believing that there is a universal moral code that everybody should be following. Thusly, we teach Our children what is "right" and "wrong" based on that belief, and we thusly pass it on to the next generation before they're old enough to make those decisions for themselves.

Once the children are able to make their own decisions, they rebel against the beliefs that the parents tried so hard to beat into their heads at an early age. This is why so many children rebel in their teens, because they don't share the same values as their parents by default, which is pretty much proof that the idea of universal "rights" and "wrongs" is false.

The reason so many of us submit to this brainwashing is because this free-thinking, or "rebellious stage", as it has come to be called, has been absorbed into the very society that perpetuates it. Since it is only a "stage", teens are confronted with the choice of either remaining a child forever,(That is, with their own values and thoughts) or growing up, which means conforming to the "mainstream", which is another myth, perpetuated by the middle and upper class, who need constant external validation for their morals. We have been brainwashed by the myth of God to believe that we need this judgement from the outside. But, when you think about it, who is most qualified to make judgements about you? About your beliefs? Your values should be your own, not anybody else's.

One good thing that came from the Bible was the "Judge not lest ye be judged" quote. Although often used as a tool of those that unwittingly support the hierarchy, which we have been raised to believe is necessary, it is helpful for talking to those on the inside in words most of them recognise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
OK,... this is proof to me that we are having a discussion with someone incapable of understanding the language as we use it.

..or simply someone pretending to be so.

His/her mind has degenerated into the "I know you are but what am I..!?" phase.



Everything you said has been like the negative of what ive said questioning it ... read up

Ohh he doesnt understand im superior to this guy - ok m8 get a grip

I agree with you on several things.

I agree "teaching" what you don't understand is a bad thing.

I agree "individual/group interpretation of a religion's precepts" has been used for evil.

I agree you're an angry adolescent who's been through much trauma and absolutely will not be swayed from your view that "christianity" (and the bible) are tools of "great evil" that should be surpressed and wiped from the face of the planet.

I agree talking with you is an exercise in utter futility.

..although it is amusing to see raging adolescent self-righteous certitude run amok. :)

you are only saying that because you are an atheist. ALL religion is based on myth. its all a human construct. but people sincerely believe it and teach it to their children.

its not wrong, its what people have done since the neanderthals.

surely you realize that when you are taught to be patriotic, thats brainwashing, school spirit is brainwashing, good manners is brainwashing, obedience to traffic laws is brainwashing.

to not share a sincere religious belief with ones children would be impossible. ones religion affects ones whole life. can't leave the baby home alone on sunday morning eh?


OMG once again we hit the same wall with a sore-head - Teach them to be good you seriously arent telling me your un-able to - if you actually beleive in being GOOD you would know and by now realised its much better to love them with the truth instead of a FANTASY STORY

Not brainwashing but civil morality. However, religion can be confused with civic morality. I say we start teaching some Fight Club as an alternative to the Bible. "This is your Life" and what not should keep our kids in line. Thats what I'll teach at an early age, maybe it'll keep my kids from being materialistic little twats.

Yes "believe in the Bible in at least some way" was purposefully made vague, because different denominations labelled as "Christian" hold different views from the very liberal ones where the Bible is a good book with moral stories, to the more conservative ones where the Bible is 100% accurate and God's word to everybody.

But for most Christian denominations teh Bible is God's word. Anybody can strap the label Christian on them, even when they have no beliefs even remotely Christian. Just like even the most reactionary person could strap themselves with th label liberal if it suited their purposes, but that wouldn't actually make them liberal.

So therefore I use believeing in the Bible as part of teh definition of a Christian.

The OT does endorse slavery, but not in the way we normally think of it. When we think of slavery we think of the Black Slave Plantation in the US. But a slave in the OT was closer to a servant than a slave. The slave sold themselves and were released at the year of jubilee, which occurred every seventh year. Masters were instructed to be good to slaves and there was even a ritual for a slaves who wanted to stay in slavery at the year of jubilee because their master provided for them well.

As for the murder of raped woman, I don't remember reading that anywhere, although adulterers where to be killed, but I don't think it included raped women.

As for the genocide, you are right. God ordered the slaughter of some peoples that were extremely evil. These commands came directly from God, and looking through it from an eternal view made sense, but our very horrific from our temporal view. These people's sins were great and if the Jews had lived near these people they would have become sinful as well, and many more would have gone to Hell. So he saved some people from eternal damnation, by killing some who were already destined for it. And compared to eternity, anything experienced in this life is rather small.

I agree with you on several things.

I agree "teaching" what you don't understand is a bad thing.

I agree "individual/group interpretation of a religion's precepts" has been used for evil.

I agree you're an angry adolescent who's been through much trauma and absolutely will not be swayed from your view that "christianity" (and the bible) are tools of "great evil" that should be surpressed and wiped from the face of the planet.

I agree talking with you is an exercise in utter futility.

..although it is amusing to see raging adolescent self-righteous certitude run amok. :)


I dont hate christianity and i dont hate religion m8 - i hate the way the kids are being taught good using a 2000 year old book and myths and fantasy to back it up- to make them good when love and care is all that is needed ..

Geez

And m8 your attempts to make me feel small are usless - you are just being annoying at the end of the day at a serious table

Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do ..


Well, I have a point of view...lemme see. when I was a child, my parents tried to raise me catholic. As soon as they said that Moses parted a sea ( when I was four), I said Bullshit, never beleived anthing they said, and went the next two years with no moral guidance or civility. It was swell. Point is, when we are young children, we only understand consequences.

In response to people saying that we need to teach our kids "right" and "wrong", Christianity isn't the problem, although it is related.

The problem is that we've all been brainwashed into believing that there is a universal moral code that everybody should be following. Thusly, we teach Our children what is "right" and "wrong" based on that belief, and we thusly pass it on to the next generation before they're old enough to make those decisions for themselves.

Once the children are able to make their own decisions, they rebel against the beliefs that the parents tried so hard to beat into their heads at an early age. This is why so many children rebel in their teens, because they don't share the same values as their parents by default, which is pretty much proof that the idea of universal "rights" and "wrongs" is false.

The reason so many of us submit to this brainwashing is because this free-thinking, or "rebellious stage", as it has come to be called, has been absorbed into the very society that perpetuates it. Since it is only a "stage", teens are confronted with the choice of either remaining a child forever,(That is, with their own values and thoughts) or growing up, which means conforming to the "mainstream", which is another myth, perpetuated by the middle and upper class, who need constant external validation for their morals. We have been brainwashed by the myth of God to believe that we need this judgement from the outside. But, when you think about it, who is most qualified to make judgements about you? About your beliefs? Your values should be your own, not anybody else's.

One good thing that came from the Bible was the "Judge not lest ye be judged" quote. Although often used as a tool of those that unwittingly support the hierarchy, which we have been raised to believe is necessary, it is helpful for talking to those on the inside in words most of them recognise.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that there is no universal moral code and that each person should come up with their own. That kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. Hitler had his own moral code which he followed, that resulted in millions of people dead and a continent crippled by war.

Very few do evil believing what they are doing is evil. So to say each should adopt his own moral code and everybody else should just stay out of it, is just asking for suffering. There should be at least some things that are universally taught as immoral.

I consider myself living proof that teaching religion from an early age CAN be done in a balanced and (hopefully) successful manner. I don't believe that Hell was ever mentioned to me until I was older, and it isn't the subject of a lot of talk in the churches my family has attended. Instead the reason presented for not doing evil was the harm and hurt feelings that it causes to others. Mind you, I WAS taught that evil has consequences upon you (not explained to me in eternal terms, though), but that was NOT the only reason given to me for being good.

At the same time I was exposed to religion, I was also exposed to science. I still remember how happy I was when my parents (mind you, this was at age 5 or so!) bought me advanced books on evolution, the Big Bang, and so on...they were always very encouraging to me in learning about the scientific side of things as well. They left me to reconcile the two for myself--and I still remember just how pleased I was when I did so at about age 6! I remember ever since I was little being warned not to condemn others of other faiths and beliefs...in fact, there's a belief in my family that I recently realized may even go back to grandparents that people of other beliefs DO go to Heaven. I think that part of the reason that I have never fallen out with Christianity is because my parents taught me in such a balanced manner that I could really discover what it was and what I think it's intended to be.

The OT does endorse slavery, but not in the way we normally think of it. When we think of slavery we think of the Black Slave Plantation in the US. But a slave in the OT was closer to a servant than a slave. The slave sold themselves and were released at the year of jubilee, which occurred every seventh year. Masters were instructed to be good to slaves and there was even a ritual for a slaves who wanted to stay in slavery at the year of jubilee because their master provided for them well.

Read more closely. Only Hebrew slaves were to be released at the year of jubilee. Foreign slaves could be kept against their will for a lifetime. Also, if a male slave got married during his period of slavery, the owner could keep the wife and any kids, thus basically forcing the man to choose between freedom without his family and slavery with it. The Bible, although it mostly condones "good" treatment of slaves does say that if you beat your slave to death, it is ok as long as he survives at least one day - he was your property so you didn't murder him.

As for the murder of raped woman, I don't remember reading that anywhere, although adulterers where to be killed, but I don't think it included raped women.

According to the OT, if a woman is raped within the limits of the town, and no one hears her cry out and saves her, she shall be stoned along with her rapist. Yes, because *obviously* if no one heard her she didn't cry out.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

As for the genocide, you are right. God ordered the slaughter of some peoples that were extremely evil. These commands came directly from God, and looking through it from an eternal view made sense, but our very horrific from our temporal view.

Genocide is horrific. Period. The fact that the Israelites believed that God told them to murder "every man, woman, and child" and then punished them for not doing it is abominable.

These people's sins were great and if the Jews had lived near these people they would have become sinful as well, and many more would have gone to Hell.

Sounds like a problem with the Jews to me. Just because the person next to does something does not mean that I will feel it necessary to follow suit.

One thing-


You dont religion to teach your kids good - and for sure if you cant well im sorry but theres something wrong

I understand that many religious parents will want to bring their child/ren up within their faith. However, I strongly believe that children should not be forced into attending church/temple/synagogue/wherever... because not only does it often have the effect of forcing the child away from the religion, but also because I believe that forcing someone to at least pretend to believe in something is tantamount to making them deny their true selves. And I find that idea extremely abhorrent.

It is entirely possible to bring a child up with "religious" values such as respect your parents, love your neighbour, do as you would be done by, etc... without having any religious element in there. That's the way I was brought up, because my father is a Hindu and my mother is a Catholic and they couldn't agree on how to raise me and my brother. They have let us find our own views and I am so grateful to them for that. I have formed my own set of personal beliefs by experience and by their gentle guidance, and they mean more to me than any set of religious laws which could have been rammed down my throat.

Well, I have a point of view...lemme see. when I was a child, my parents tried to raise me catholic. As soon as they said that Moses parted a sea ( when I was four), I said Bullshit, never beleived anthing they said, and went the next two years with no moral guidance or civility. It was swell. Point is, when we are young children, we only understand consequences.

Well, it might be helpful for you to know that the "Red Sea" was a mistranslation. The proper translation is "sea of reeds." Basically it means that God got (or, if you do not believe in God, they found a path) them through the swamp while Pharoah and his men got their chariots all bogged down in the mud and couldn't really follow. Makes sense to me =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
I agree with you on several things.

I agree "teaching" what you don't understand is a bad thing.

I agree "individual/group interpretation of a religion's precepts" has been used for evil.

I agree you're an angry adolescent who's been through much trauma and absolutely will not be swayed from your view that "christianity" (and the bible) are tools of "great evil" that should be surpressed and wiped from the face of the planet.

I agree talking with you is an exercise in utter futility.

..although it is amusing to see raging adolescent self-righteous certitude run amok.



I dont hate christianity and i dont hate religion m8 - i hate the way the kids are being taught good using a 2000 year old book and myths and fantasy to back it up- to make them good when love and care is all that is needed ..

Geez

What you're saying is that using the bible to teach anything is something you hate.

You hate using the bible for any purpose.

You hate being "lied to".

You confuse "being lied to" with "story and metaphore".

You hate those who confuse "the truth" with "story and metaphore".

Your trauma of "being lied to", and of seeing "other kids" lied to, has made you hate the "book that lies and the lying liars that use it".

If you didn't have sensible parents, Aunties, or parent-like substitutes, that couldn't make you understand in the due course of your education that the stories were to learn from, then I feel sorry for you,.. but it in no way diminishes the value of that cultural book to those who find it helpful.

You're simply are a rebel, with a need to vent, with your own "book".

That's cool,... use it..! :)

I was raised by two loving Christian parents and three older sisters. Was the Bible in my house? Yes. Was it thrown at me? No. I was taught how to live and survive in the world by example. Am I a Christian? Yes, but by my own volition. Come on folks, raising your children is very much a matter of role modeling. Throw a book at a kid and all they get is a bruise. My bible may be fantasy, but that doesn't mean I don't believe it. For the record, over half of it is much older than 2000 years old.

What you're saying is that using the bible to teach anything is something you hate.

You hate using the bible for any purpose.

You hate being "lied to".

You confuse "being lied to" with "story and metaphore".

You hate those who confuse "the truth" with "story and metaphore".

Your trauma of "being lied to", and of seeing "other kids" lied to, has made you hate the "book that lies and the lying liars that use it".

If you didn't have sensible parents, Aunties, or parent-like substitutes, that couldn't make you understand in the due course of your education that the stories were to learn from, then I feel sorry for you,.. but it in no way diminishes the value of that cultural book to those who find it helpful.

You're simply are a rebel, with a need to vent, with your own "book".

That's cool,... use it..! :)


OMG here we go again ..

He dont like what i like hes wrong ..

He dont like non-bible people

He doesnt like being wrong

He cant accept the fantasy is fake..

Sorry m8 but thats what ur doin cant you see you cant even listen to antoher suggestion ..

Ill listen to you if ytou make a decent comment or sumfin

I was raised by two loving Christian parents and three older sisters. Was the Bible in my house? Yes. Was it thrown at me? No. I was taught how to live and survive in the world by example. Am I a Christian? Yes, but by my own volition. Come on folks, raising your children is very much a matter of role modeling. Throw a book at a kid and all they get is a bruise. My bible may be fantasy, but that doesn't mean I don't believe it. For the record, over half of it is much older than 2000 years old.


Is that not even worse if its older man - I mean come on do we want the youth to see the 2000+ story and rules coming from a book

WHEN PARENTS COULD JUST TEACH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD N BAD INSTEAD OF BEING SLACK AND TURNING TO THE OLDEST MYTH EVER - GEEZ CANT YOU JUST TRY WITHOUT A FANTASY 1 DAY???????????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
What you're saying is that using the bible to teach anything is something you hate.

You hate using the bible for any purpose.

You hate being "lied to".

You confuse "being lied to" with "story and metaphore".

You hate those who confuse "the truth" with "story and metaphore".

Your trauma of "being lied to", and of seeing "other kids" lied to, has made you hate the "book that lies and the lying liars that use it".

If you didn't have sensible parents, Aunties, or parent-like substitutes, that couldn't make you understand in the due course of your education that the stories were to learn from, then I feel sorry for you,.. but it in no way diminishes the value of that cultural book to those who find it helpful.

You're simply are a rebel, with a need to vent, with your own "book".

That's cool,... use it..!



OMG here we go again ..

He dont like what i like hes wrong ..

He dont like non-bible people

He doesnt like being wrong

He cant accept the fantasy is fake..

Sorry m8 but thats what ur doin cant you see you cant even listen to antoher suggestion ..

Ill listen to you if ytou make a decent comment or sumfin

"Sumfin"...?

Discussion over,... m8.

Point taken on the slavery, on review, I find you are right.

On the rape topic. Adultry was a sin, punishable by death in Israel. If you didn't cry out then you probably weren't raped, it was probably consensual. In the city, in those times where there wasn't as much housing insulation, noise, and personal isolation as in our modern society, you probably would have been heard.

As for genocide I could offer you the usual the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh, but I'm sure it won't mean much to anybody not already a Christian.

Anyway, it was a good discussion, but I have to go home, now.

I mean for a parent to have to turn to a book that is so full of lies and myth to teach their kids good is utterly pathetic no wonder we see so much tragidy in this world and then make the kids see it ..


Im not bothered i know that in time the bible will be forgotten anyway LOL why not just do it now and teach them good or are people really that uncapable of teaching the right and wrong they know - GEEZ you wanna raise kids well DO IT

Im sorry if this offends anyone ..

But if you cant teach your kids right and wrong without a book that cant be proven to be true and in my view is fantasy then what GOOD is there in that ???????????
I could teach kids what is "good" and "bad" using the Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy. Having a towel: good. Building an overpass that destroys the Earth: bad. The book serves as examples; it's the instruction of the book that counts.

"Sumfin"...?

Discussion over,... m8.

Good you aint come out with anything on this issue yet



I mean for a parent to have to turn to a book that is so full of lies and myth to teach their kids good is utterly pathetic (lying to them about something so strong in our minds is so SAD) no wonder we see so much tragidy in this world and then make the kids see it ..


Im not bothered i know that in time the bible will be forgotten anyway LOL why not just do it now and teach them good or are people really that uncapable of teaching the right and wrong they know - GEEZ you wanna raise kids well DO IT

To Kanatia: What would YOU put forth as immoral? Furthermore, Hitler's beliefs were NOT his own. He was greatly inspired by a relatively prominent figure that I cannot recall the name of, whom he saw giving a speech. It was this man that influenced Hitler's beliefs about race. Hitler was weak-minded enough due to his poor upbringing that he accepted the man's beliefs without question. From there, mass genocide happened, as Hitler was able to convince those that came to support him that HIS way was the ONLY way.

Basically, Hitler convinced people that he was right, everybody else was wrong. His power was used to "discipline" those who dissented.

Also...

What is your definition of 'good' and 'bad'?

From my perspective they appear as subjective terms...

Totally! That's because you have a subjective perspective, being human and all.

Everyone judges for themselves what is "good" and "bad"; and society hires Judges to judge for everyone what is "good" and "bad" based on how society is currently defining the terms (by religious means, secular means, astrological means... whatever).

I could teach kids what is "good" and "bad" using the Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy. Having a towel: good. Building an overpass that destroys the Earth: bad. The book serves as examples; it's the instruction of the book that counts.


So your telling me you dont know the difference between right and wrong and for anyone saying the same thing --

What we have learned is enough to show what is right and wrong - and for sure they are going to learn quicker and beter than us -
Like all youth do ..

But wait we should teach them the bible to show right and wrong because im denying that iknow right and wrong ??????

Just teach them right and wrong no stupid fantasy story thats so false they relaise their parents were liars and dis-respect them ..

Hmm i wonder why all the bad stuff happens in this world GEEZ


Its so simple If you cant pass on your knowledge on what you have learned your kids dont have em GEEZ

In fact let some book rule their lives and wonder why they grow angry when they realise the truth - Eventually its gonna be a non bible world so the youth are going to look back in ANGER at the parents who told them these stupid lies cause the couldnt even handle there own kids

I for one will be able to raise my kids teaching them right and wrong (even more from my own mistakes and what ive seen improving the good factor) without a 2000+ year old book and its so beleivable stories about a guy parting the seas LOL

I understand that many religious parents will want to bring their child/ren up within their faith. However, I strongly believe that children should not be forced into attending church/temple/synagogue/wherever... because not only does it often have the effect of forcing the child away from the religion, but also because I believe that forcing someone to at least pretend to believe in something is tantamount to making them deny their true selves. And I find that idea extremely abhorrent.

But if a child never feels forced? I don't recall my parents ever forcing me to attend church. I even recall that they listened to me when at about 4 or 5 years old or so I said I didn't want to go to the separate "children's church" but preferred to stay with them. That was listened to and accepted. When I moved to college and stopped attending church there (didn't like the churches in the college town), they never condemned me for that, either. My parents have offered guidance, but I've never felt like they were in charge of my spiritual life. This was something I wanted for myself.

The good thing is as more kids come into this world they quickly diminish the bible as CRAP and rightly so ..

At least we will have a youth next generation growing up who can teach without the use of a fantasy book that says about as much good as Lord of the rings ..

The good thing is as more kids come into this world they quickly diminish the bible as CRAP and rightly so ..

At least we will have a youth next generation growing up who can teach without the use of a fantasy book that says about as much good as Lord of the rings ..


For this to be even happening is a serious wrong within that needs to be broken

But if a child never feels forced? I don't recall my parents ever forcing me to attend church. I even recall that they listened to me when at about 4 or 5 years old or so I said I didn't want to go to the separate "children's church" but preferred to stay with them. That was listened to and accepted. When I moved to college and stopped attending church there (didn't like the churches in the college town), they never condemned me for that, either. My parents have offered guidance, but I've never felt like they were in charge of my spiritual life. This was something I wanted for myself.
I don't have a problem with that, at all. I have a problem with parents forcing children to "be" in religion, for example making them go to church and be confirmed IF they don't want to. If the child does want to, then I have absolutely no problems with that. But if the child says, "I don't want to do this," and the parents FORCES them... That is something I find very wrong. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough! :)

Thank you for clarifying; I mistook you for one of those who felt that any parent who introduced a child to religion was doing a bad thing.

Not brainwashing but civil morality. However, religion can be confused with civic morality. I say we start teaching some Fight Club as an alternative to the Bible. "This is your Life" and what not should keep our kids in line. Thats what I'll teach at an early age, maybe it'll keep my kids from being materialistic little twats.
Except that in the movie it wasn't really his life....

Originally posted by Willamena....
I could teach kids what is "good" and "bad" using the Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy. Having a towel: good. Building an overpass that destroys the Earth: bad. The book serves as examples; it's the instruction of the book that counts.

See, this is beautiful. You are using your own experiences and love of a book to teach children as you see fit.
Camdean, the point of using a book, any book, to show children right/wrong, etc., is that it gives an example to be evaluated. You could just as easily say, "When I was five, my dog died because I forgot to feed it. This is wrong. Remember to feed the dog."

I think that you are concentrating overmuch on the message of teaching (using religion, Bible/church, so forth) rather than concentrating on the method. Responsible parents teach their children that this is what we (as parents) believe, and we would like you to respect those beliefs. However, as you grow up, you may choose other beliefs.

I don't have kids, nor will I ever, but in hypothetical land I would raise my kids to be respectful and polite and use proper grammar. I might, at times, get dogmatic about it because it is something I believe in strongly. However I would hope that my kids would see that proper grammar and punctuation allows them to communicate effectively in the world and it has its place. Just like religion.

And for the record...I'm an atheist, raised Southern Baptist.

Thank you for clarifying; I mistook you for one of those who felt that any parent who introduced a child to religion was doing a bad thing.

Damn i hope i havent came across like that either dude .. If its good im all for it

But in the end we need to leave it all behind to move forward

See, this is beautiful. You are using your own experiences and love of a book to teach children as you see fit.
Camdean, the point of using a book, any book, to show children right/wrong, etc., is that it gives an example to be evaluated. You could just as easily say, "When I was five, my dog died because I forgot to feed it. This is wrong. Remember to feed the dog."

I think that you are concentrating overmuch on the message of teaching (using religion, Bible/church, so forth) rather than concentrating on the method. Responsible parents teach their children that this is what we (as parents) believe, and we would like you to respect those beliefs. However, as you grow up, you may choose other beliefs.

I don't have kids, nor will I ever, but in hypothetical land I would raise my kids to be respectful and polite and use proper grammar. I might, at times, get dogmatic about it because it is something I believe in strongly. However I would hope that my kids would see that proper grammar and punctuation allows them to communicate effectively in the world and it has its place. Just like religion.

And for the record...I'm an atheist, raised Southern Baptist.


Dude - you cant bring grammar into a serious point - thats biggoted for a start ..

But what is the point of teaching kids a fantasy story about being good - When we can do it ourselves ?

Even though you dont want kids surely your differnce between good n bad is allit would take to teach em the way to live - and as we all know we all make mistakes so from what we know there is more good to be learned this making the youth even better without religious fantasy

OMG once again we hit the same wall with a sore-head - Teach them to be good you seriously arent telling me your un-able to - if you actually beleive in being GOOD you would know and by now realised its much better to love them with the truth instead of a FANTASY STORY
but camdean
you and i are atheists, so we think of religion as a fantasy story, therefore we would never teach our children to believe it. i certainly didnt teach my son anything that i didnt believe in

to a truly religous person their religion is TRUE, not a fantasy. they would be wrong to not teach their children the morality of christianity. it is an extremely important part of their lives.

the age of the book makes no difference, would it be better to use the book of mormon because it is only 175 years old? perhaps dyanetics because its only 35 years old? (no i didnt look up the ages i just guessed)

sure you shouldnt brow beat your child with threats of going to hell if they dont finish their peas. but some parents just suck and if it wasnt satan they would be telling their kid that mommy wont love them if the dont finish their peas or that the evil pea man woudl get them if they dont eat them all up.


for many people the whole reason for being "good" is religion. i was once told by a good friend that i cant possibly be moral if i dont believe in god. in his mind without god there to judge it all, there can be no good or evil. *shrug*

Ive never said once that im an atheist read up ..

Im expressing my true feelings about some bull crap that is messing up the youth

Surely as respect to the children we should actually count on what we beleive exists after life or before etc ..

Just what is right and wrong

My parents made me go to Sunday school a lot when I was little, but stopped taking us so much when our Sunday school schedule and curriculum got screwy. I've never felt like Christianity has been shoved down my throat, either. I think that it is up to the parents what they teach their children, and as the children get older they can decide for themselves what they believe.

My parents made me go to Sunday school a lot when I was little, but stopped taking us so much when our Sunday school schedule and curriculum got screwy. I've never felt like Christianity has been shoved down my throat, either. I think that it is up to the parents what they teach their children, and as the children get older they can decide for themselves what they believe.


The sooner parents get a grip and stop teaching the kids lies and myth we may have a stable world to live in

Dude - you cant bring grammar into a serious point - thats biggoted for a start ..

But what is the point of teaching kids a fantasy story about being good - When we can do it ourselves ?

Even though you dont want kids surely your differnce between good n bad is allit would take to teach em the way to live - and as we all know we all make mistakes so from what we know there is more good to be learned this making the youth even better without religious fantasy

Why is grammar bigoted? There's absolutely nothing wrong with being well-spoken and capable of expressing one's self.

I, personally, would teach my kids right and wrong via a combination of means. Both by example from my life and by using certain stories and books. I don't see any harm in fantasy, it's actually good for you to believe in things you've never experienced or seen.

When I was ten, I read a book about a boy who fell in love. At ten, I'd never experienced love, but it was a beautiful story and made me believe in love. When I got around to falling in love myself, it made the story all that more meaningful, plus I knew what to expect (kinda).

I understand that you don't see a point in using the Bible or forcing religion on a kid, and I agree, but using stories and allegories to teach moral points is a time honored tradition. Either you are using the stories from your life, or you are using stories from others' lives, either way it exposes your kids to things they may have not yet experienced and prepares them for future experiences.

Just being good, won't cut it. Kids need to be told. Heck, kids need to be told that stoves are hot and to be careful crossing streets. We can't assume that they will understand that just because you never put your hand on the stove, doesn't mean they shouldn't. The same goes for good and evil behaviour. Just being nice and polite may not be enough, at some point you'll have to tell your kid it's wrong to hit people (if you think it is), and they'll ask why. That's when a story gives you a little more weight than "Because I said so."

Why is grammar bigoted? There's absolutely nothing wrong with being well-spoken and capable of expressing one's self.

I, personally, would teach my kids right and wrong via a combination of means. Both by example from my life and by using certain stories and books. I don't see any harm in fantasy, it's actually good for you to believe in things you've never experienced or seen.

When I was ten, I read a book about a boy who fell in love. At ten, I'd never experienced love, but it was a beautiful story and made me believe in love. When I got around to falling in love myself, it made the story all that more meaningful, plus I knew what to expect (kinda).

I understand that you don't see a point in using the Bible or forcing religion on a kid, and I agree, but using stories and allegories to teach moral points is a time honored tradition. Either you are using the stories from your life, or you are using stories from others' lives, either way it exposes your kids to things they may have not yet experienced and prepares them for future experiences.

Just being good, won't cut it. Kids need to be told. Heck, kids need to be told that stoves are hot and to be careful crossing streets. We can't assume that they will understand that just because you never put your hand on the stove, doesn't mean they shouldn't. The same goes for good and evil behaviour. Just being nice and polite may not be enough, at some point you'll have to tell your kid it's wrong to hit people (if you think it is), and they'll ask why. That's when a story gives you a little more weight than "Because I said so."

Yeah well just because someones gramma isnt up to ones scratch doesnt mean his point is void GEEZ

I know what your saying mate - but for parents to turn around and claim they cant teach their kids good without religion is bad parenting..

But what is the point of teaching kids a fantasy story about being good - When we can do it ourselves ?
How can you avoid it? Fantasy permeates our society --television, literature, movies, DVD, video games --there is no way to avoid fantasy being a tool of teaching right and wrong.

The Bible really is more believable than a lot of people think.

For instance, Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene. Here, we're talking about an orthodox Jewish society. Women were respected as mothers, but beyond that, not much. A woman's testimony in court was considered invalid, etc, etc. So, if this story about Jesus' ressurection was fabricated, then women would never be included in the story, especially not as first witnesses.

How can you avoid it? Fantasy permeates our society --television, literature, movies, DVD, video games --there is no way to avoid fantasy being a tool of teaching right and wrong.


yes startrek will show them all they need to know like the bible LOL

They will listen and take in the programme but when it comes down to it the ones who love them will be able to guide them how they see fit ..

And some see fit as they cant do it themselves so use the bible as a benchmark when it should be them who shows their own kids the difference between right and wrong

The Bible really is more believable than a lot of people think.

For instance, Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene. Here, we're talking about an orthodox Jewish society. Women were respected as mothers, but beyond that, not much. A woman's testimony in court was considered invalid, etc, etc. So, if this story about Jesus' ressurection was fabricated, then women would never be included in the story, especially not as first witnesses.

LoL yeah the virgin mary was pregnated by GOD ahaha WTF ..

She was a common slut and couldnt admit her sins this is why it all started

Wait there is more someone parted the sea to get to the pub then locusts swarmed the area for security LOL

Ive never said once that im an atheist read up ..

Im expressing my true feelings about some bull crap that is messing up the youth
oh well then you really dont understand what it takes to bring up a child in a religion and what it takes to be a good parent

good parents teach their children their relgious beliefs. if you want your child to be a good baptist when his is an adult, you start when he is a child, you dont leave it to chance.

oh well then you really dont understand what it takes to bring up a child in a religion and what it takes to be a good parent

good parents teach their children their relgious beliefs. if you want your child to be a good baptist when his is an adult, you start when he is a child, you dont leave it to chance.


WHAT good parents can do it them selves without a fantasy behind them OMG where is this world going

the parents like what you say are only good with religion who can only rase good children because they taught with religous beleifs are all acting on a dillusional book full of myth LOL and they still wont accpet defeat..

Geez religion is all wrong for the youth GET A GRIP YOU FANTASY DWELLING PRIK

I think a much better idea is to bring the consequences up right away.

I would tell my children "Because when you hit somebody, it hurts, and they might hit you back because of what you did."

And I will leave it at that.

yes startrek will show them all they need to know like the bible LOL

They will listen and take in the programme but when it comes down to it the ones who love them will be able to guide them how they see fit ..

And some see fit as they cant do it themselves so use the bible as a benchmark when it should be them who shows their own kids the difference between right and wrong
And some see fit as they can't eat with their hands and so use a fork.

The book is just a tool.

And some see fit as they can't eat with their hands and so use a fork.

The book is just a tool.

GEEZ cant the parent be the tool or are they too damn lazy and scared of the facts of life themselves ????????

If they actually tried to teach what they allready know from the bible or not the kids will listen without the bible taking away the war TOOL that has been used so much and before anyone says " they wont learn good" they are learning what the parents know which is good as we know it

GEEZ cant the parent be the tool or are they too damn lazy and scared of the facts of life themselves ????????
I don't know about the parent, but you're sure being a tool.

GEEZ cant the parent be the tool or are they too damn lazy and scared of the facts of life themselves ????????

If they actually tried to teach what they allready know from the bible or not the kids will listen without the bible taking away the war TOOL that has been used so much and before anyone says " they wont learn good" they are learning what the parents know which is good as we know it


For the the guy who thinks im a tool

WHAT good parents can do it them selves without a fantasy behind them OMG where is this world going

the parents like what you say are only good with religion who can only rase good children because they taught with religous beleifs are all acting on a dillusional book full of myth LOL and they still wont accpet defeat..

Geez religion is all wrong for the youth GET A GRIP YOU FANTASY DWELLING PRIK
if religion would get my child a place in heaven for all eternity how could it be wrong???

sure there are better ways of teaching your children right from wrong than by using religious threats

but if thats the only way the parent knows, its WAY better than not teaching them right from wrong at all.

if religion would get my child a place in heaven for all eternity how could it be wrong???

sure there are better ways of teaching your children right from wrong than by using religious threats

but if thats the only way the parent knows, its WAY better than not teaching them right from wrong at all.


LOL fantasy enspires your life i see

Hmm what mate no one has said not teach them right from wrong what are you talking about ..

Just teach them the rights and wrongs (ive siad this 6times lol) that we have all learned from all we have seen and know .. ?

A white room full of gold when we die ROFL Get a fukn grip m8 .. Ahahahaha

WHAT good parents can do it them selves without a fantasy behind them OMG where is this world going

the parents like what you say are only good with religion who can only rase good children because they taught with religous beleifs are all acting on a dillusional book full of myth LOL and they still wont accpet defeat..

Geez religion is all wrong for the youth GET A GRIP YOU FANTASY DWELLING PRIK

OMFG WTF BBQ tihs forum == teh suck!;


Ok... childish games over. If you know the truth and that truth tells you that it's your duty to spread the truth to all the ends of the earth. Then you'd probably want to inform your kids of that truth... at the least. As a Christian I was brought up knowing the truth. I'm glad for that and I'm also glad that I have a moral compass to follow through my trials and tribulations. Was religion shoved down my throat? Most would say yes. Attending services with my family on Sunday was compulsory.

So is school. Was mathematics shoved down my throat? I would say yes, who remembers their "times tables"? I do.

Personally, I love Jesus Christ as my savior. I also love mathematics and am taking the last series of mathematics that my college has to offer. Was I corrupted???

camdean- you speak as if parents have only been telling children about God and the Devil for only a few weeks now. if what you say is true, then everyone who's ever heard Bible stories would be warped. as people get older(these posts have proven that) they make their own decisions about their spirituality.

OMFG WTF BBQ tihs forum == teh suck!;


Ok... childish games over. If you know the truth and that truth tells you that it's your duty to spread the truth to all the ends of the earth. Then you'd probably want to inform your kids of that truth... at the least. As a Christian I was brought up knowing the truth. I'm glad for that and I'm also glad that I have a moral compass to follow through my trials and tribulations. Was religion shoved down my throat? Most would say yes. Attending services with my family on Sunday was compulsory.

So is school. Was mathematics shoved down my throat? I would say yes, who remembers their "times tables"? I do.

Personally, I love Jesus Christ as my savior. I also love mathematics and am taking the last series of mathematics that my college has to offer. Was I corrupted???


LOL you love someone you dont even know on yourself buddy and teach your kids that Oh my hell in christ ..
Yeah you beleive we go to a white room full of gold and riches beyond

WooHoo Fantasy rules you m8 i undertsnad somehow i was once like that ...

Seriously thats how to raise the kids thats tell them a truth you cant proove making it the oldest lie ever ..

( ibeleive that jesus was an inspiring man and if he seen what you idoits were doing hed remake heaven into hell - go on tell your kids that one ..

In fact what page .. OMG how old is this book ..

BLOODY PATHETIC PARENTING

GEEZ you know something ive just thought about what to tell my kids when or if I have any .. when they ask that brutal question about god or SATAN ..

Look its all crap just be a good guy and youll get it all (obviously in better language) . the sudden you start doing wrong youll lose it all and more - going on what they learn from school and me + wife on whats wrong ..

Geez its actually quite scary the thought of what to tell them when they ask

Just for the record, I always resented anything forced on me as a child...INCLUDING how inperitive it was to learn the times tables in first grade. I learned them when I was good and ready and still aced Calculus, so there's something to be said for letting kids learn on their own time. Just for the record, I find it unconscionable to force a child to young to understand religion into a Church of any kind. I was going to teach a little bit of every faith tradition to my Child and leave him or her to make a choice, but my atheist boyfriend has shown me that even this is sort sighted and preachy. I'm a wiccan and so we've decided to give our future kids the agnostic dilemma and leave them to decide based on their own wisdom if there is a Creator or not. If the kid decides there IS a God(ess)(s) (es), THEN I can help them to choose a faith. Until then, all religious rearing will be a basic competence of other cultures and nothing more. We also don't plan to tell the kid(s) where WE stand on the issues until they have made choices...why bias them?? Anyway, I'm not saying this is the right answer...it's just my take on the subject. I feel that a good parent tries to give their child as many freedoms and choices as possible. No matter what they choose though, I hope to instill a basic spirituality and respect for life and the planet, and a good set of ethical guidelines.

---- Really Long Post Warning ----


"Sumfin"...?

Discussion over,... m8.

Heehee... I must say, you've put forward a pretty convincing argument despite the situation and what I picked up as a general sense of irritation at the topic-creator. Though your type-face was a little off-putting... >>;

Anyway, a few things I'd like to put forward.

1) Dealing solely with Christianity to start with, the morals taught by the stories are generally good things. Be nice to each other, don't become too attached to material posessions, don't be overly boastful or conceited... One major problem with rejecting the scripture is the onset of rejection of the core principles held inside. Telling children that you really can't stand the book may well lead them to not only advocate against the holes in the issues but also to begin to make ethically incorrect decisions. I mean, if your kid has the passage about the Good Samaritan read at school, then comes home to find out that his parents disagree with the bible, how are they going to react when they see a classmate lying beaten up in the playground?

Okay, maybe that's not a brilliant example, but in spite of whatever theological difficulties you might have with the christian message, there are some excellent moral statements in there, and it's worth at least introducing children to that aspect of it.

2) This one's solely from a personal perspective. I think, based on my own experiences and those of my close friends and family, that a discovered doctrine has far more impact on a person than an inherited one. There's no way to really research that given how much of belief is really passed from one person to another, but I think that a doctrine that someone finds after a lifetime raised by those with one of their own is one that they'll be more enthusiastic about and willing to support or stand to. How many parents have had a child enrolled in taking up an instrument like the piano or violin, which they've absolutely loathed engaging in, who has eventually gone on to become a fanatic drummer or guitarist? I think it's happened more than once. The problem is evidently not with the practice as such, but simply with the fact that the drums or guitar is the instrument that they've picked for themselves.

Similarly, teaching a child about your beliefs may meet with a degree of backlash, but it will help them to go on to make an informed decision for themselves that they can hold with just as much or even more conviction as yours, and that may not necessarily be that different from your own. So don't worry too much that telling a child about what you think will be a form of brainwashing; in the long run, it helps them to avoid the single-minded dedication of the misinformed.

3) Religious conflict rarely, if ever, has anything to do with religious doctrine. It is territorial. Groups, linked by community (that may in some cases have originated in religious bodies, yes), will do things to gain more land or people for their groups, which will often involve fighting with other groups of a similar mindset. I don't think it's fair to blame religion for that. Take the "Catholics" and "Protestants" in the North of Ireland. Or the "Christians" during the crusades. Or the Chechnyan "Muslim Extremists". Or the "Jews" and "Muslims" in the Gaza strip. Four examples commonly used to denounce religious bodies as hypocrites and corrupt. In all four, it's about posession of territory; groups of people wanting to control somewhere and needing a reason to do so. How can their books be to blame when their books aren't even read? Besides, the "Athiests" of Stalinist Russia were just as bad at taking a religious standpoint as an excuse to dominate.

4) I actually agree with Camdean on one issue; the use of what I think of as blackmailing young people into behaving in a certain way. The ideas of both Heaven and Hell and God are exactly that. It's teaching children that the reason they should do good is because either God told them to or that they go to Heaven when they do, and the reason they shouldn't do bad is that God gets upset or angry when they do or that they go to Hell, which isn't a very nice place to be. I suppose this is where I fall short on actual Christianity; I don't like the way that firstly, they think my ethical standards can be bought like that, and secondly, this seems to completely ignore the consequences of actions on other people.

This is where the most legendary of all childrens' TV shows comes into play. Sesame Street! Anyone in the Just Turned Adult generation like myself should remember the days of Big Bird, Telly, Elmo, Oscar and company. Simply put, it was basic education in both the 3 R's and Children's Ethics all rolled into one simple and entertaining programme. And what strikes me about it now is the focus on how ethical choices can have human implications. Whenever someone takes something, its previous owner gets upset. Whenever something is returned to its owner, they become happy. Whenever things are shared, there is general merryment and the occasional song and dance number.

It's a sad world we live in where Sesame Street is pulled off the air. But it was an example on how Christianity should approach children on moral issues; not on simply "Because the big guy told me so", but because of the practical implications of those choices. Yes, okay, they are the teachings of Jesus on some occasions, there's no need to hide that. But don't try and buy them with promises of eternal happiness. Self-interest should never be how ethics is looked at, since these rules were not intended as a set of entrance criteria, but as advice on how to go about daily life. In my honest opinion, I hasten to add.

5) Camdean... Your arguments intregue me, though your general forum etiquette seems a little off (but that's not the issue here). You're basically saying that you disagree with teaching morality from a book, correct? So where does your concept of what's good and right come from? Would you agree with the statement that "What's ethically correct is that which causes the most amount of happiness to the greatest amount of people"? Or does the statement "Sticking to a set of largely compulsory but self-defined rules" stand more in your line of thinking?

How much of your own understanding of "Rightness" comes from other people? And, in that light, why is taking a comprehension of moral correctness from a book any worse than taking it from those who raise you, or people who thought about it long before you were born?

6) Final one this time. What exactly is it that gives God any more authority than any other author from 2000 years ago on the issue of ethics? If the Old Testament is anything to go by, God's sense of civility could use a bit of a touch up itself anyway (again with a quick In My Honest Opinion postscript thrown on at the end there)...

Phew. Sorry for the Thesis folks. ^^;

HMMM camdean
are you suggesting that you are FINE with the hindu parents teaching their kids about reincarnation?
is it all religion you are ranting about or just christianity?

HMMM camdean
are you suggesting that you are FINE with the hindu parents teaching their kids about reincarnation?
is it all religion you are ranting about or just christianity?


No - right here is what im angry at -- again (sorry if im unclear im very angry)

People teaching their kids religion claiming its a way to teach them good - making the kids go through un-necassary complications when they could just teach them the rights and wrongs they know instead of putting them through so much stress ..


Its not hard to understand even if you dont agree - After getting 9/11 out of my head i see a thing in russia and i wonder what are we DOING WRONG ?

Will be survive without another nuke attack that will melt the ice caps Etc..

If we could cut the root of some wars out of our youth (religion - even if you disagree its true millions have died) then maybe we can expect better of them from what we have done (nuke the planet) the ways people have taught the kids is bringing them up wrong - in fact way-wrong if we could just get this sorted and teach them good without relying on lies and fantasy ( which the bible and a lot of religion is based on) maybe they will look at FACTS and realise we have a lot to do to help ourselves.

I hope someone understands his without trying anything stupid like "but the bible" and " but it taught me good" or its the truth baed on fiction etc ..

When the real worry is our kids will they have somehwere to live if we dont change our old obviously usless ways but corporate all the goodness felt from it into what we teach them now

Also i dont know it all and never will

oh i dont think that it would help anything to get rid of religious instruction

people are violent. it has little to do with religion, people just use it as an excuse for their own aggression

i have 2 kids and have never suggested they study religion....when they are are old enough to make thier own decisions they will do so themselves....and it would have been shameful for me to indoctrinate them into some religion when they don't have, or are unable to understand....

oh i dont think that it would help anything to get rid of religious instruction

people are violent. it has little to do with religion, people just use it as an excuse for their own aggression

*Points to own point 3 on the previous page*

You're right, of course. When people need an excuse to blow people up, they'll find one, even if their original one is resolved.

oh i dont think that it would help anything to get rid of religious instruction

people are violent. it has little to do with religion, people just use it as an excuse for their own aggression

Yeah and who gives them this excuse to use ?

The parents and elders who teach it man


EDIT - also teaching the kids something you beleive is true because of whatever reason even though you cant EVER proove its true may scar them for life - the only ones they thought they could trust because they loved them lie to them about their whole existence - not enough for a kid to go crazy no ?

I'm fortunate in that my parents never did force it on me, even though I think it was partially because my dad was fed up with religion because his parents force-fed him religion from an early age. My mother would have loved to put in a Catholic school from the time I could walk and talk.

So, I was spared...both religious school and church. But, she kept reinforcing some of the ideas on me, and even now she denies my beliefs and tries to say they're wrong. Meanwhile, I have my father to thank for the fact that I am able to think for myself and have my own beliefs. He gave me this when I was very young.

In this, I believe that the best thing a parent can do for a child is to give them an open-mind and teach them about the value of spirituality and let them find their own religion based on their beliefs.

Yeah and who gives them this excuse to use ?

The parents and elders who teach it man

EDIT - also teaching the kids something you beleive is true because of whatever reason even though you cant EVER proove its true may scar them for life - the only ones they thought they could trust because they loved them lie to them about their whole existence - not enough for a kid to go crazy no ?

Does it matter who teaches who what? A Lecturer in Physics teaches me Atomic physics because I'm taking a University course, I use that knowledge to go build an A-bomb and make a dent in America the size of Great Britain. How can the Lecturer be held responsible for how I use the knowledge that I've gained?

There's a very major degree of human responsibility involved in all of this that can't be whisked away by the removal of religion. Other excuses exist that people will use if religion is destroyed, ya dig?

RE : The EDIT -
Kids learn that Adults aren't perfect eventually. Heck, most people pick it up pretty quickly, like when your parents punish you because your brother made it look like you made the Vase fall over. Anyway, why would they be scarred because you told them that you think XYZ is true? The Adult is going to go on believing it's true, and the Child will simply adapt according to what information they gather theirself.

teaching your kids facts is the most important thing, not some unproven belief...

Does it matter who teaches who what? A Lecturer in Physics teaches me Atomic physics because I'm taking a University course, I use that knowledge to go build an A-bomb and make a dent in America the size of Great Britain. How can the Lecturer be held responsible for how I use the knowledge that I've gained?

There's a very major degree of human responsibility involved in all of this that can't be whisked away by the removal of religion. Other excuses exist that people will use if religion is destroyed, ya dig?

RE : The EDIT -
Kids learn that Adults aren't perfect eventually. Heck, most people pick it up pretty quickly, like when your parents punish you because your brother made it look like you made the Vase fall over. Anyway, why would they be scarred because you told them that you think XYZ is true? The Adult is going to go on believing it's true, and the Child will simply adapt according to what information they gather theirself.

I aint blaiming anyone its just a matter of stop using fantasy and start using FACTS to raise the kids before the caps melt or we see more death by the million.. as ive seen all my life - most wars have been because of religion if not territory which seems to be settled now on who owns what - but religion will never be solved because there is no solid proof and a lot of religions is scared to beleive we were created by another being (not god) no one knows so who can say what to the kids - Lying to them will continue to hurt them as long as the people keep lying through their teeth throuth their own fears of what lies beyond

teaching your kids facts is the most important thing, not some unproven belief...

I'd argue that thinking skills were more important than raw facts, but the value of factual knowledge was never in doubt. I'm arguing firstly that the only way to really make an informed decision on that particular belief is to know at least a little bit about it, and secondly that acceptance of doctrine is separate from comprehension of it. Parents should be teaching the comprehension of religious beliefs. Their children can make their own minds up from there.

teaching your kids facts is the most important thing, not some unproven belief...
True, they are more aware than we believe then to be.

when my son was born, my mother in law asked me when he was going to be circumcised...i was shocked that i was expected to mutilate my child in the name of god...and where's the pic of gods tackle, if we are supposed to be made in his image, i'm sure there was no-one around to chop his foreskin when was creating man :)

I'd argue that thinking skills were more important than raw facts, but the value of factual knowledge was never in doubt. I'm arguing firstly that the only way to really make an informed decision on that particular belief is to know at least a little bit about it, and secondly that acceptance of doctrine is separate from comprehension of it. Parents should be teaching the comprehension of religious beliefs. Their children can make their own minds up from there.

They shouldnt have to even worry about beleifs just be confident among themsleves

If people arent willing to sacrifice a little bit of their religion for peace in the whole world - then why do some people beleive in GODs sarcrifice ?

I mean come on its not as if im saying lets be bad i hate good - Its a matter of lets get a grip and solve this mad issue if we can.

I'd argue that thinking skills were more important than raw facts, but the value of factual knowledge was never in doubt. I'm arguing firstly that the only way to really make an informed decision on that particular belief is to know at least a little bit about it, and secondly that acceptance of doctrine is separate from comprehension of it. Parents should be teaching the comprehension of religious beliefs. Their children can make their own minds up from there.
agreed

I aint blaiming anyone its just a matter of stop using fantasy and start using FACTS to raise the kids before the caps melt or we see more death by the million.. as ive seen all my life - most wars have been because of religion if not territory which seems to be settled now on who owns what - but religion will never be solved because there is no solid proof and a lot of religions is scared to beleive we were created by another being (not god) no one knows so who can say what to the kids - Lying to them will continue to hurt them as long as the people keep lying through their teeth throuth their own fears of what lies beyond

But you are blaming someone. Or something, anyway. You're completely convinced that religion is the problem. That sounds like blame.

*Shrug*

Territory is far from settled. As I, again pointing you back 2 pages to my post at the bottom, have noted, a lot of what you perceive as Religious wars are simply extentions of these territorial expansions under a veil. Most people can see through the veil and attribute the problem directly to the groups involved. Crusades, The Gaza Strip, The Holocaust, all of this was done not out of religion but out of a need to control, and taking away a few silly little beliefs on the almighty ones isn't going to help. (No offence meant to the religious people on that statement, by the way)

I'm with you on the afterlife dealy to an extent, but that's hardly a problem, is it? Parents who believe something to be true will tell their children that they think it's true. Most parents will be honest enough to at some stage admit that they are not a hundred percent certain about it, and again, children can make their own decisions from there. It's not as though the parent is deliberately lying to mislead their child; they're simply setting out what their opinion on the truth is, and you can't call that lying. A statement from a misinformed viewpoint, maybe, if you're feeling particularly cynical, but not lying.

You keep saying "stop the fantasy"....

I'm sorry but who the hell are you to tell people they may not have dreams and aspirations and desires? Because I tell you now (using "because" to start a sentence is VERY bad english, I am aware of that), that is what you are saying. You are saying that every child must be hand-reared on "facts" and "facts" alone. You therefore exclude all the "fantasy" that can be productive - no, NECESSARY - for the personal advancement of the individual as a human being of conscience.

Fantasy is part of what has geared our species from the word go. You have no right to tell anybody how they can bring up their child, unless you can see that it is actually hurting the child. If not, keep your nose out of it. Also, remember that a child is NOT a blank slate, because the child already has the genetic inheritance of the bloodlines of its parents, and all ancestors before them since the dawn of our species. New evidence suggests that certain synaptic connections in the neural pathways of a child's brain are evident from birth, neural connections that indicate INHERITED memory. Ever heard of racial or genetic memory? No child comes from nowhere.

I was brought up a catholic, but my parents never - repeat NEVER - thrust it down my throat. They wished only to introduce me to some of the truths that they discovered for themselves, about faith, belief, compassion and general goodness. I was always told that I could believe whatever I wanted and I do. I am now a pagan, and I am proud of it.

FACTS do not keep a person going for long I can tell you. Believe me when I say that having experienced severe depression that pushed me to suicide many times in this past year, I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that sometimes that "fantasy", that "religion" of belief and faith, that ability to imagine - to FANTASISE - was sometimes all that kept me alive. People tell you that "depression does not last forever" - fact? NO, the belief of people who have never bloody been through it. That "fact" does not help a damn bit, because it won't stop you ending your life in the long run, Depression can last as long as it is untreated, and frequently lingers in some sufferers until their natural deaths. Do you know, what helped me realise I wasn't alone in my depression was the suggestion of a poet to read the Book of Job in the Bible - it turned out, ironically, that he was the only person I knew who understood how depression felt.

A parent should not force religion, no. However, it MUST be acknowledged that the teachings that we pass on to our children keep our species alive. If a parent does not teach a child about belief, about imagination, about the fantasy you deride so much, then a vital support mechanism is removed from the child's entire existence, and THAT is cruel.

We are a species of abstract thought, because we EVOLVED that way. You can never eradicate that ability in your children during your lifetime or any other.

There, my friend, is where Nature Herself has you by the balls.

p.s.(I will teach my children that this Earth is sacred, because that is the truth *I* have learnt from my existence so far. You can keep all your facts somewhere unillumined by the sun. It may also interest you to know that I am 20 next month.)

But you are blaming someone. Or something, anyway. You're completely convinced that religion is the problem. That sounds like blame.

*Shrug*

Territory is far from settled. As I, again pointing you back 2 pages to my post at the bottom, have noted, a lot of what you perceive as Religious wars are simply extentions of these territorial expansions under a veil. Most people can see through the veil and attribute the problem directly to the groups involved. Crusades, The Gaza Strip, The Holocaust, all of this was done not out of religion but out of a need to control, and taking away a few silly little beliefs on the almighty ones isn't going to help.

I'm with you on the afterlife dealy to an extent, but that's hardly a problem, is it? Parents who believe something to be true will tell their children that they think it's true. Most parents will be honest enough to at some stage admit that they are not a hundred percent certain about it, and again, children can make their own decisions from there. It's not as though the parent is deliberately lying to mislead their child; they're simply setting out what their opinion on the truth is, and you can't call that lying. A statement from a misinformed viewpoint, maybe, if you're feeling particularly cynical, but not lying.


Sorryman i actually have out of anger been ignorant i apologise once again - this is the place i can let my anger out i maybe should of started a thread about MY ANGER

I honestly cant be arsed with another morning/day coming out of my lovely dreams (lol) into yet antoher human massacre for ne real reason i can understand --

Geez i have 1 major dream in this world.. But id need soo much money it aint gonna happen..

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me

( whats religion got to do with this - its whats gonna keep causing most wars, abvioculy there will be others but it woulkd at least cut it down and we wouldnt be relying on mythical 2000+ year old storys to teach our kids good when obviously we can do it ourselves..)

DONT FORGET WE ARE SO STRONG NOW.

He/She is a parent. Don't listen
Alright, fight the power.

I am a Christian. My parents have "rammed religion down my throat," they, Christians like me (surprise!). I don't really have a problem with it, ya know? I guess some people do. I'd say if you don't want to have religion rammed down your throat, go up to 'em and tell them that. If they get annoyed, beat 'em with a baseball bat.

Hello there! Good Ol' Nodea Rudav/Anagonia here! :D

Well, looking at this situation arrising here I can tell that many people still cling on to their "Beliefs" of the non-existance of Lord God. :headbang:

Still Hard-Headed people around here, thats why I loved'em! :p

Anywho, I know it won't do anything to talk to someone online about Spirituality, won't work for many. So I'll just say that you'll be believing what you need to suit your hiding places amongst your life-styles. I mean, hey, we all know that Sin is tought and that some don't like the "idea" of it and just LOVE to run any way they can. :)

Alright, fight the power.

I am a Christian. My parents have "rammed religion down my throat," they, Christians like me (surprise!). I don't really have a problem with it, ya know? I guess some people do. I'd say if you don't want to have religion rammed down your throat, go up to 'em and tell them that. If they get annoyed, beat 'em with a baseball bat.


GEEZ like 4 year olds have a choice untill by 6 its in them without knowing they were forced into it and are fine now with it and will do it to their kids no matter what

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me

( whats religion got to do with this - its whats gonna keep causing most wars, abvioculy there will be others but it woulkd at least cut it down and we wouldnt be relying on mythical 2000+ year old storys to teach our kids good when obviously we can do it ourselves..)

DONT FORGET WE ARE SO STRONG NOW.


Anyone wanna start trying to do this ?

LOL you love someone you dont even know on yourself buddy and teach your kids that Oh my hell in christ ..
Yeah you beleive we go to a white room full of gold and riches beyond

WooHoo Fantasy rules you m8 i undertsnad somehow i was once like that ...

Seriously thats how to raise the kids thats tell them a truth you cant proove making it the oldest lie ever ..

( ibeleive that jesus was an inspiring man and if he seen what you idoits were doing hed remake heaven into hell - go on tell your kids that one ..

In fact what page .. OMG how old is this book ..

BLOODY PATHETIC PARENTING

Err, hmm. Thanks for telling me what I believe... And uh, since you know everything that Jesus is thinking. I'll let you tell my kids that. Oh wait, I don't have kids another fallacious assumption.

Overall, I guess I'm glad that the Bible tells us we will be harshly criticized and judged by the world for believing the truth. You act like the Bible is full of lies when you're fulfilling its very prophecies. I'm glad I was prepared for the personal attack and I have the Bible to thank for that.

vanaheim...you are spell checking people and you used the word "learnt" which isnt even a word. it's "learned". this isnt english class so i think its ok to make grammatical errors. good grief. i think people who point out others spelling or grammatical errors on message boards or chats are just trying to show people how smart they are(think they are).who cares if i use caps on the first word of each sentence on here? how petty....back to the subject.

i keep reading about you cant prove the heaven/hell thing or what it says in the Bible and all that. what everyone seems to be forgetting is that religion, be it catholocism or baptist is based on FAITH. god asks us to have faith in him and if we do, we will reap the rewards. sure id like god to come down here and part the atlantic ocean or speak to me from a burning bush in my yard. but will i demand he perform miracles of turning water into wine or i wont believe in him? absolutely not. he doesnt have to prove anything. one of the definitions of faith is: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. or has the concept of faith been deleted from spirituality now?

Err, hmm. Thanks for telling me what I believe... And uh, since you know everything that Jesus is thinking. I'll let you tell my kids that. Oh wait, I don't have kids another fallacious assumption.

Overall, I guess I'm glad that the Bible tells us we will be harshly criticized and judged by the world for believing the truth. You act like the Bible is full of lies when you're fulfilling its very prophecies. I'm glad I was prepared for the personal attack and I have the Bible to thank for that.


It is a fantasy novel with 10 good points LOl .. teach the kids yourself ONCE AGAIN CANT YOU DO IT?

Yes pathetic is the word for this type of person - No god is true blah blah blah - im so GOOD blah blah - well take care of your kids and start worrying about others sellfish little own-beleiver you beleive just for you and no one else cause your scared m8

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me

( whats religion got to do with this - its whats gonna keep causing most wars, abvioculy there will be others but it woulkd at least cut it down and we wouldnt be relying on mythical 2000+ year old storys to teach our kids good when obviously we can do it ourselves..)

DONT FORGET WE ARE SO STRONG NOW.


Geez i thought with so many religous people someone would actually care about this idea

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me.

You know, that in itself is a dream worth retaining and acting on. It's a genuine selflessness that would probably do everyone a world of good. But coexistence can flourish between people of different faiths, you know? All that you really need is for the "Religious" to stop bickering at each other, and programs like the one you're dreaming of are the perfect way to bring people together.

What is religion but a faith in the supernatural anyway? People can think whatever they want about it as long as they don't keep separating themselves from each other, and stuff like your plan could be a solution to that problem without the need to remove the belief system at all.

So, good luck with that! ^^

But you are blaming someone. Or something, anyway. You're completely convinced that religion is the problem. That sounds like blame.

*Shrug*

Territory is far from settled. As I, again pointing you back 2 pages to my post at the bottom, have noted, a lot of what you perceive as Religious wars are simply extentions of these territorial expansions under a veil. Most people can see through the veil and attribute the problem directly to the groups involved. Crusades, The Gaza Strip, The Holocaust, all of this was done not out of religion but out of a need to control, and taking away a few silly little beliefs on the almighty ones isn't going to help. (No offence meant to the religious people on that statement, by the way)

I'm with you on the afterlife dealy to an extent, but that's hardly a problem, is it? Parents who believe something to be true will tell their children that they think it's true. Most parents will be honest enough to at some stage admit that they are not a hundred percent certain about it, and again, children can make their own decisions from there. It's not as though the parent is deliberately lying to mislead their child; they're simply setting out what their opinion on the truth is, and you can't call that lying. A statement from a misinformed viewpoint, maybe, if you're feeling particularly cynical, but not lying.
Religion has always been a blanket to say who has power (sorry, those are just f*ckin' awesome). Remember that thing where the Jews tried to kill Jesus for saying he was the Messiah? It was because he had worshippers; otherwise, he would have simply been branded insane. Another thing he did was he rebelled against money trading and shops in the Synagogues; they had power in Money. Remember the Holocaust? This was also caused because the Jews had power in Money; they had banks and stores because they were stingy (culturally, yes). Hitler realised this, and his country, being unusually poor from The Great War, he decided to rebel against them.

By the way, Camdean, you're a retard. Like some other retards on this message board, you tend to complain about religion while not saying anything about why. Find a half-decent reason or shut the f*ck up.

Religion has always been a blanket to say who has power (sorry, those are just f*ckin' awesome). Remember that thing where the Jews tried to kill Jesus for saying he was the Messiah? It was because he had worshippers; otherwise, he would have simply been branded insane. Another thing he did was he rebelled against money trading and shops in the Synagogues; they had power in Money. Remember the Holocaust? This was also caused because the Jews had power in Money; they had banks and stores because they were stingy (culturally, yes). Hitler realised this, and his country, being unusually poor from The Great War, he decided to rebel against them.

By the way, Camdean, you're a retard. Like some other retards on this message board, you tend to complain about religion while not saying anything about why. Find a half-decent reason or shut the f*ck up.


LOL read the posts ive maid you sad prik just the first and last wont do m8

GEEZ like 4 year olds have a choice untill by 6 its in them without knowing they were forced into it and are fine now with it and will do it to their kids no matter what
If what you're saying is true...
1. How the hell'd you change your mind?
2. In fact, how the hell'd anyone change their minds?
3. Why do we have Atheists and Agnostics (like there really is a difference)?
4. Shut up. No, really. You've pissed me off.

This is the problem with today. Too many f*ckers unwilling to enforce some discipline on people who say really stupid things. "We have to go back to the days that if someone said something stupid, we'd smack 'em one."

You know, that in itself is a dream worth retaining and acting on. It's a genuine selflessness that would probably do everyone a world of good. But coexistence can flourish between people of different faiths, you know? All that you really need is for the "Religious" to stop bickering at each other, and programs like the one you're dreaming of are the perfect way to bring people together.

What is religion but a faith in the supernatural anyway? People can think whatever they want about it as long as they don't keep separating themselves from each other, and stuff like your plan could be a solution to that problem without the need to remove the belief system at all.

So, good luck with that! ^^


Man you dont know how hard im gonna try to do this but for the kind of money id need its gonna be a life long challenge like i said if anyone would like to help lets give it a try :)

( first i need to fix my spacebar lol)

miratha...go take some anger management classes. i expect you'll be on the floor kicking and screaming and then sucking your thumb. people are entitled to their opinioin. if you cant handle it- go to britiny spears chat or something

LOL read the posts ive maid you sad prik just the first and last wont do m8
I decided to read some in the middle.
The bible is a lie and a fantasy. I hate it. It is wrong. I'd rather learn good from bad than from a myth, despite that myth being an effective teacher of what teaches good from bad. M8. Laughing Out Loud.
Oh, and F*CKING LEARN ENGLISH.

miratha...go take some anger management classes. i expect you'll be on the floor kicking and screaming and then sucking your thumb. people are entitled to their opinioin. if you cant handle it- go to britiny spears chat or something


Exactly m8 go to bed if your to drunk to handle this.

Peechland, go back, sit down, and READ what I wrote, not the spell-checking I DID ON MYSELF YOU IDIOT.

I decided to read some in the middle.

Oh, and F*CKING LEARN ENGLISH.


LoL m8 make a point or something -

Who cares about spelling at this time 1:15 a.m for me -

Go away immature faggot

Man you dont know how hard im gonna try to do this but for the kind of money id need its gonna be a life long challenge like i said if anyone would like to help lets give it a try :)



Cant beleive i have to bump this (miratha)

miratha...go take some anger management classes. i expect you'll be on the floor kicking and screaming and then sucking your thumb. people are entitled to their opinioin. if you cant handle it- go to britiny spears chat or something
That'd probably be a pretty good idea. Ah well. I enjoy getting angry, honestly. I apologise.

By the way, could you enclose an example as to what specifically I did that said people aren't entitled to their own opinions? If ya mean the discipline thing, that is my own opinion, and spews forth numerous hypocrisies on both sides which I will not bother with, since we all have seen them. I honestly think that discipline needs to be enforced a bit more on stupid things; I don't specifically mean on kids not wanting to be forced religion, if they don't want to, they need to enforce some discipline on their parents to stop. THAT is what I really meant to imply. And also that I really disagreed with Camdean. Yeah, I'm heavily biased and hypocritical.

"Britiny Spears Chat"?

Peechland, go back, sit down, and READ what I wrote, not the spell-checking I DID ON MYSELF YOU IDIOT.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

That'd probably be a pretty good idea. Ah well. I enjoy getting angry, honestly. I apologise.

By the way, could you enclose an example as to what specifically I did that said people aren't entitled to their own opinions? If ya mean the discipline thing, that is my own opinion, and spews forth numerous hypocrisies on both sides which I will not bother with, since we all have seen them. I honestly think that discipline needs to be enforced a bit more on stupid things; I don't specifically mean on kids not wanting to be forced religion, if they don't want to, they need to enforce some discipline on their parents to stop. THAT is what I really meant to imply. And also that I really disagreed with Camdean. Yeah, I'm heavily biased and hypocritical.

"Britiny Spears Chat"?


Mate whats your point in this topic ???????????????? say it now or we all know your being a faggot - and know one cares about spelling

I like the strength you have in your arguments!

Did you ever want to become a politician or some sort of debate chairman? You could do a lot of good that way.

:)

Oh, by the way, that dream you talked about: I think it is a wonderful one.
At least somebody else realises we are living in a horrid time. Kids need our help (and this from me, a 19 year old, lol).

If what you're saying is true...
1. How the hell'd you change your mind?
2. In fact, how the hell'd anyone change their minds?
3. Why do we have Atheists and Agnostics (like there really is a difference)?
4. Shut up. No, really. You've pissed me off.

This is the problem with today. Too many f*ckers unwilling to enforce some discipline on people who say really stupid things. "We have to go back to the days that if someone said something stupid, we'd smack 'em one."
Can't believe I have to bump this (Camdean).

Oh, by the way, I had a small amount of alcohol tonight. A very small sip. And it tasted awful. Way too sweet. I rarely drink, anyway.

Mate whats your point in this topic ???????????????? say it now or we all know your being a faggot - and know one cares about spelling
Read. My. Post.

Can't believe I have to bump this (Camdean).

Oh, by the way, I had a small amount of alcohol tonight. A very small sip. And it tasted awful. Way too sweet. I rarely drink, anyway.


LoL and this is what it does wait till I tell your mom n dad whats wrong have i scared ya m8 ?

So what is your point -- your a faggot OK GOOD

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me


If anyone is interested in this please let me know im being serious this is MY dream and i WANt it to happen..

All religions would obviously be allowed in - its the fact of something good happening for the youth instead of all the bad thats been happening..

my second day on here and i've aready pissed 2 people off...go figure. my apologies vanaheim- my mistake in reading. admitting when youre wrong is so liberating......

miratha-i was simply going by your expression of anger. getting angry is necessary sometimes i guesS. it just seemed that the level of anger you were expressing was in a round about way saying "im right youre all wrong."

im here to discuss things, have fun and maybe make a few friends. i also hope to learn some things. humor is what i live for , so just know that i'm sarcastic all the time. im like the female verson of chandler bing from the show "friends" ..btw.....are any of you from the USA?

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me

( whats religion got to do with this - its whats gonna keep causing most wars, abvioculy there will be others but it woulkd at least cut it down and we wouldnt be relying on mythical 2000+ year old storys to teach our kids good when obviously we can do it ourselves..)

DONT FORGET WE ARE SO STRONG NOW.
I'm one of those people who tends to be a bit opposed towards "corny dreams," but I think that if this were actually possible, it might do a bit of good.

Just to prove I'm not completely introverted (it's very close, though).

If kids want to learn religion, fine. If they don't, fine. If they want to learn a different one, fine. If parents want to ram some religion down some throats, fine.

my second day on here and i've aready pissed 2 people off...go figure. my apologies vanaheim- my mistake in reading. admitting when youre wrong is so liberating......

miratha-i was simply going by your expression of anger. getting angry is necessary sometimes i guesS. it just seemed that the level of anger you were expressing was in a round about way saying "im right youre all wrong."

im here to discuss things, have fun and maybe make a few friends. i also hope to learn some things. humor is what i live for , so just know that i'm sarcastic all the time. im like the female verson of chandler bing from the show "friends" ..btw.....are any of you from the USA?


Dude you aint done nothing wrong ..

I am so sorry, I really did not mean to lose it.

I'm having a hard time adjusting to being "normal" again, lol. I'm a bit of an eomotional train wreck at the moment! It's funny because all I have to do is watch 10 seconds of any given show on TV and I am guaranteed to be in tears, haha!!

I really am sorry.

Forgive me? :(

LoL and this is what it does wait till I tell your mom n dad whats wrong have i scared ya m8 ?

So what is your point -- your a faggot OK GOOD
Nope, I'm fat. I have to consume a lot more alcohol to get wasted. Once again, you're making a retarded assumption. Hey, lookie, I read some of the other posts.

I'm one of those people who tends to be a bit opposed towards "corny dreams," but I think that if this were actually possible, it might do a bit of good.

Just to prove I'm not completely introverted (it's very close, though).

If kids want to learn religion, fine. If they don't, fine. If they want to learn a different one, fine. If parents want to ram some religion down some throats, fine.


Dont start your pish m8 you just pissed of cause i dont beleive in what you believe in ive seen it before m8, read elsewhere think elsewhere this dream is good and you iant touching it unless you really wanna help - ill tell you something m8 your a little evil prik

Dont start your pish m8 you just pissed of cause i dont beleive in what you believe in ive seen it before m8, read elsewhere think elsewhere this dream is good and you iant touching it unless you really wanna help - ill tell you something m8 your a little evil prik
Ack! I was trying to be nice and apologise! What is wrong with you!? Of course we disagree in beliefs, and I was just saying that you refuse to accept other people's beliefs (which is fairly obvious)! Calm down.

sure youre forgiven! sorry things are so bad for you at present time.

and thanks cam!

this site needs to come with a friggin manual....my profile has the wrong birthday on there. i never even entered my birthday! maybe I'M the one who needs a drink. LOL

I've been asking that question myself. My parents have rammed religion down my throat since I was young enough to understand. But now I'm a bit older I realise that the church didn't provide any concrete proof that the earth was created in that way or even that god exists at all. So now I'm agnostic - much to my parents disappointment

But you are taking the faith and belittling it down to the church (or the people of that specific church). I have been to many different churches in my life (in many states and one was not so great). I grew up as a Christian, became a Roman Catholic and now I am a Christian and it wasn't until I realized there is a difference in the Bible and a Church. Both can be great but only one can be wrong. I love every faith but I may be biased for Christian and Catholic values.

I feel an alt or something agianst non-beleivers


Quick he doesnt in beleive in what ibeleive cry - die and act childish and go against an amazing idea that will work - WTF

Lemme tell y'all the reason I got depressed.

Camdean, your dream of these centres in response to the shit that happens, like 9/11 and that school in Russia. Those events are what got me so depressed. I became convinced that the human race was not worth it, that we were mostly vile, evil pieces of crap, and I couldn't bear to not be able to solve every single problem in the entire world. SO i lost my sanity. I couldnt take living in this world with all these things.

That dream you have, it's a reason to keep going, something to aim for, and I really hope you do get to work towards it.

I had a dream the other day the kind of dream you have when lying down but not asleep..

It was like this - if i had enough money i would build a centre in every country i could for the youth growing up there (no government backing to avoid war or whatever) where they could all get together use the internet play sports and get away from their usual problems - use the net to link them all up and organise trips to other centres etc ..

If anyone can do this by all means do it - ill help for pennys LOL

Pennys as in hardly anything just making a difference would do for me


If anyone is interested in this please let me know im being serious this is MY dream and i WANt it to happen..

All religions would obviously be allowed in - its the fact of something good happening for the youth instead of all the bad thats been happening..

*brings out the tequila slammer for everybody*

....

anybody got any lemons?

:|
lol

Lemme tell y'all the reason I got depressed.

Camdean, your dream of these centres in response to the shit that happens, like 9/11 and that school in Russia. Those events are what got me so depressed. I became convinced that the human race was not worth it, that we were mostly vile, evil pieces of crap, and I couldn't bear to not be able to solve every single problem in the entire world. SO i lost my sanity. I couldnt take living in this world with all these things.

That dream you have, it's a reason to keep going, something to aim for, and I really hope you do get to work towards it.


Geez mate ive had the same kind of thoughts it makes waking up a living hell (sounds cheesy but its true) which is why ive came on ranting about religion for some reason and ive said sorry my anger got hold of me

Lemme tell y'all the reason I got depressed.

Camdean, your dream of these centres in response to the shit that happens, like 9/11 and that school in Russia. Those events are what got me so depressed. I became convinced that the human race was not worth it, that we were mostly vile, evil pieces of crap, and I couldn't bear to not be able to solve every single problem in the entire world. SO i lost my sanity. I couldnt take living in this world with all these things.

That dream you have, it's a reason to keep going, something to aim for, and I really hope you do get to work towards it.
I've always thought humans were mostly vile, evil pieces of crap. I'm slowly developing the symptoms of schitzophrenia, too. Ah well.

There's no need to say sorry to me, I went off on one too, and yeah, you are right, it IS a living hell. An absolute, horrid, 24/7 living hell.

Do you know what some religious and spiritual people call it?

The "dark night of the soul".

How right can they be, lol.

Religion is bad... please don't get sucked into there bull crap, please.

Religion is bad... please don't get sucked into there bull crap, please.
Back it up?

Back it up?


Millions of deaths creating a fantasy in childrens head beacuse some people beleive in GOD - even though there is no proof but they continue to poison the kids with it????????????????


Yes i knew thats why you were being a faggot because we were going against your little dreamy fantasy LOL some dream m8 Ahahahah

peechland gone.

sasha sad. peechland gone. =(

*hands out flyers "have you seen this Peechland? dial 0800 FIND PEECHLAND"

hmm. religion. unless it directly espouses the idea of killing/maiming/abusing/indoctrinating/converting people it's not really bad, it's the people who claim to follow it who misuse religion for their own agenda.

but if the religion does that stuff, it's naughty. pagans dont try to convert people, kill, maim, or abuse (except if they are already sick individuals like rapists). that's one of the reasons i chose paganism. oh, we have no religious books either. unless you're a Wiccan, and/or count those books on "Teen Witchcraft" by Silver Ravenwolf....lol.

some people make me laugh ^)^

i'm here....i'm in the kitchen making a cake!

Millions of deaths creating a fantasy in childrens head beacuse some people beleive in GOD - even though there is no proof but they continue to poison the kids with it????????????????


Yes i knew thats why you were being a faggot because we were going against your little dreamy fantasy LOL some dream m8 Ahahahah
I said earlier that Religion has always been a blanket for those who have power. People started believing in Jesus, they killed him. The Jews had money while none of the Germans had money, so they put them in ghettos and concentration camps. If we didn't have religion, we'd just say things like "people started supporting the lower class, so the lower class was executed" and "the upper class has money and the lower class doesn't, so the lower class put the upper class in ghettos and concentration camps." 'Course, rich people are already in ghettos. It should be fairly easy.

Damnit, Camdean, don't be so judgemental. Once again, I would not enforce my beliefs on another (at least I haven't, yet). I would also not kill in the name of God. Some of us aren't like that, surprisingly. I know, amazing, isn't it? Furthermore, you've sunk so low as to have to insult people ramantly with poor grammar to prove that religion is bad.

CAKE!

^_^

what kind of cake? i make this chocolate sponge thing and im gonna shutup cos i sound really gay now :|

lol.

CAKE!

^)^

sasha the housewife/man/thing

Ooh, almost forgot. There isn't much proof for or against most gods... So it's really up to you who you want to believe. You have your own f*cking choice; become an atheist, or become religious. Like you said, people don't have to ram a choice down your throat. To disagree with this would be hypocritical.

Religion is just an excuse for the weak minded to believe that there is something in power of them
Kids shouldn't be forced to partake in such brainwashing...let them decide for themselves when they are capable :p

peechland gone.

sasha sad. peechland gone. =(

*hands out flyers "have you seen this Peechland? dial 0800 FIND PEECHLAND"

hmm. religion. unless it directly espouses the idea of killing/maiming/abusing/indoctrinating/converting people it's not really bad, it's the people who claim to follow it who misuse religion for their own agenda.

but if the religion does that stuff, it's naughty. pagans dont try to convert people, kill, maim, or abuse (except if they are already sick individuals like rapists). that's one of the reasons i chose paganism. oh, we have no religious books either. unless you're a Wiccan, and/or count those books on "Teen Witchcraft" by Silver Ravenwolf....lol.

some people make me laugh ^)^


Mymum says shes a wiccan - i laugh with her about it and get the hoover out and ask her to fly it lol - she knows its a joke and i like thats shes happy

The sooner parents get a grip and stop teaching the kids lies and myth we may have a stable world to live in

Hey, some people actually believe in religion. They aren't "lies" to a lot of people.

My dads a protestant and i actually beleive it or not respect peoples beleifs - as i know what they mean to people

Mymum says shes a wiccan - i laugh with her about it and get the hoover out and ask her to fly it lol - she knows its a joke and i like thats shes happy
I have a problem with Wiccans. No matter how hard I try (o' course, I don't try that hard, really), I cannot, in any way, understand how magic might begin to work. I mean, I've written pages on a theory of magic, but it, of course, requires many non-existent things, such as a great big Void in the sky and the Magic Stone. That's the biggest problem.

Hey, some people actually believe in religion. They aren't "lies" to a lot of people.


I know im just cut up about that russia thing and thought (idiot) id let of some steam i thought i had against religion

Hey, some people actually believe in religion. They aren't "lies" to a lot of people.
Woah, really? Are you sure you're not just spreading your Satanic lies and such?

I know im just cut up about that russia thing and thought (idiot) id let of some steam i thought i had against religion
Wait... You mean this is the reason I've had to put up with your unusual (to say the least) replies? Wow.

im surprised my family havent done that to me! lol

i get asked if i talk to trees a lot (which i do, cos hey, they must get a bit lonely if they stand all alone with no other trees in sight, lol!) or people used to make me promise not to turn them into a frog or to curse them :|

lol, im not a nasty witch, i just talk to trees and birds ^_^ (not girls, lol, not in that way anyway, and oh im gonna shutup)

>_<

*cringe*

CAKE!

Woah, really? Are you sure you're not just spreading your Satanic lies and such?

Dont get me wrong i still think the bibles moslty myth and it is - cant deny fact over fantasy..

But in the end its all anger aimed at something and i cant get to the guys doing it can I ?

Im a pagan, and even *I* aint too comfortable with wicca a lot fo the time, but give them credit, they built a religion from the ground up in 50 years. Achievement or what? = D

camdean: for me it has come to the point where i have not been able to read the papers for over a year now. television made me just as bad, but then i got okay with it. now everytime i switch on the tele, doesnt matter what it is, i lose control and start crying. so i stay away from the media now, unless it's something i REALLY want to watch (and wont turn me into a puddle)

Ive allways noticed how many kids are rammed with religion from an early age apparantly to make them good LOL

Geez wont someone get a grip in this world ..

Why teach the kids about a stupid old story when we should be teaching them to be GOOD simple innit..

I mean why mess up there heads with a story that cant be prooved then fill their head with stuff about a devil in the afterlife -- Come on ppl think what this will do to them long-term it will make then unstable - when they should be stable with facts and not fiction..

Damn its pretty simple to do ..

I agree with you in sentiment, really. What good is it to teach kids all the rules and tradition of Christianity without teaching them the whole point of it all: to be good and to serve God?
I think your emphasis on "facts" that can apparently be "proven," though, is off-course. Pure rationalism has no more ability to make us good than pure moralism. (It also has no more ability to make us good scientists, for that matter.) For thousands of years, people have told their children "stories." It's still one of the best ways that we learn goodness. Do I believe that every word of the Bible is literally true? Some people in my childhood taught that, but no, I don't believe it. I believe in the reality of Christ and the "story" of the Bible. I believe that God can use me to work his goodness in the world.

im surprised my family havent done that to me! lol

i get asked if i talk to trees a lot (which i do, cos hey, they must get a bit lonely if they stand all alone with no other trees in sight, lol!) or people used to make me promise not to turn them into a frog or to curse them :|

lol, im not a nasty witch, i just talk to trees and birds ^_^ (not girls, lol, not in that way anyway, and oh im gonna shutup)

>_<

*cringe*

CAKE!


lOl the only plants i talk to are the mushrooms growing on my lawn :)

Hey, some people actually believe in religion. They aren't "lies" to a lot of people.
just because people believe in something doesn't stop it from being a lie.

and do the mushrooms talk back? :D

I like crows. They actually talk back at you..notice i said AT you, lol. no such thing as a two-way conversation with a crow, it's all "CAW CAW CAWWWWWWW!" lol

:D

I think that the Bible isn't just a fantasy book like LOTR or something. I think that it's a guide (one of many) on how to be good (the New Testament, that is). You see, children learn by example, and Jesus teaching the parables is teaching what good people do to help others.

Before you start, I think it's a very good idea to teach from a book that's been passed down for 2000 years. What about all the other fables and stories that came down through history? Do they not teach children stuff, or at least give them something to think about? You see, we learn by tradition, and tradition is what makes the world go around. Never mind that a few bastards use religion to kill others.

For the record, I have a strong belief in the supernatural, because I believe that there's more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio (Hamlet). You may bash me and insult me for that, but I was not brought up that way, I decided that for myself. You see, I believe there are things that science cannot explain (At least not very well), and that yes, there is a God.

I agree with you in sentiment, really. What good is it to teach kids all the rules and tradition of Christianity without teaching them the whole point of it all: to be good and to serve God?
I think your emphasis on "facts" that can apparently be "proven," though, is off-course. Pure rationalism has no more ability to make us good than pure moralism. (It also has no more ability to make us good scientists, for that matter.) For thousands of years, people have told their children "stories." It's still one of the best ways that we learn goodness. Do I believe that every word of the Bible is literally true? Some people in my childhood taught that, but no, I don't believe it. I believe in the reality of Christ and the "story" of the Bible. I believe that God can use me to work his goodness in the world.


Thing is mate GOD may be a planet might not be true we may turn of like a tv set at night no one knows - so how can you teach the truth when no one actually knows it - But what we do know is that we have to be good - pretty simple and why do we know that - my parents and school taught me that not religion .. Id prefer a world were we went for real facts not what coulkd eb facts etc ..

Im a pagan, and even *I* aint too comfortable with wicca a lot fo the time, but give them credit, they built a religion from the ground up in 50 years. Achievement or what? = D

camdean: for me it has come to the point where i have not been able to read the papers for over a year now. television made me just as bad, but then i got okay with it. now everytime i switch on the tele, doesnt matter what it is, i lose control and start crying. so i stay away from the media now, unless it's something i REALLY want to watch (and wont turn me into a puddle)
Actually, it's closer to, about... A thousand (and it's based on earlier religions, too!). Its most recent targeting scheme, which is to get depressed abused teenage girls who want a boyfriend and some revenge, however, is even newer than 50 years.

You seem heavily depressed. Wow, not intended to be an insult, but I do NOT want to turn out like that. I pity you.

I agree with you in sentiment, really. What good is it to teach kids all the rules and tradition of Christianity without teaching them the whole point of it all: to be good and to serve God?
I think your emphasis on "facts" that can apparently be "proven," though, is off-course. Pure rationalism has no more ability to make us good than pure moralism. (It also has no more ability to make us good scientists, for that matter.) For thousands of years, people have told their children "stories." It's still one of the best ways that we learn goodness. Do I believe that every word of the Bible is literally true? Some people in my childhood taught that, but no, I don't believe it. I believe in the reality of Christ and the "story" of the Bible. I believe that God can use me to work his goodness in the world.
Nice. I second.

Thing is mate GOD may be a planet might not be true we may turn of like a tv set at night no one knows - so how can you teach the truth when no one actually knows it - But what we do know is that we have to be good - pretty simple and why do we know that - my parents and school taught me that not religion .. Id prefer a world were we went for real facts not what coulkd eb facts etc ..
Two reasons...
1. It teaches us morals.
2. Man has always strived to know everything. Thing is, we obviously can't, because, like 2001: A Space Odyssey's vision of the universe, it is way too complicated. So, we kinda made it up as close as we can guess. If the Bible is in any way contrived from the word of God, then God must have heavily bastardised it because we'll obviously have no clue of the meaning.

dont pity me.

I dont like pity, I appreciate but no. IT's something I have had to go through, and believe it or not this is me on the other side of depression!

and actually you are wrong. trust me, i have been pagan for over 5 years. Wicca was founded by a man named Gerald Gardner in the early fifties of the 20th century after the repeal of the legendary Anti-Witchcraft Act. What he did was to beg steal and borrow from many traditions, including Egyptian, Hindu, Hebrew, Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon. He mashed it together to form a pagan religion with elements from many REAL religions of the past, but with distinctly modern origins. Wicca therefore, is only 50 years old, though based on many older concepts.

I am just a general pagan, more like a shaman than anything else. In that respect, I follow the simple things that shamans have done for 30,000 years: I talk to plants, and speak to the sky, and speak to animals. I believe in an Earth Mother and a Sky Father, again concepts as old as the hills, hehe, literally!! ^_^

Two reasons...
1. It teaches us morals.
2. Man has always strived to know everything. Thing is, we obviously can't, because, like 2001: A Space Odyssey's vision of the universe, it is way too complicated. So, we kinda made it up as close as we can guess. If the Bible is in any way contrived from the word of God, then God must have heavily bastardised it because we'll obviously have no clue of the meaning.

LoL we can teach morals our selves without a fantasy novel unless your uncapable of doing so - and need a book of fantasy to lead your life for you..

I need a book to to teach you morals son and its about a guy who came bak to life he was god - mary was pregnated by a spirit (lol=slut who could admit the father) and someone split the seas ...

Beleive me son for ever trust me and trust this world -- what a plavce to bring them into lol

In your religion, Christianity, depression is seen as a spiritual test that many priests have experienced, and is well catalogued by the Church.

They called it "the dark night of the soul".

I choose to agree with this metaphor, because nothing ever seemed so bright as when i started coming out of depression. All the colours were brighter, every star brighter, the sky bluer than i ever remember it. It is a gift in some ways, as much as a curse, to go through depression.

dont pity me.

I dont like pity, I appreciate but no. IT's something I have had to go through, and believe it or not this is me on the other side of depression!

and actually you are wrong. trust me, i have been pagan for over 5 years. Wicca was founded by a man named Gerald Gardner in the early fifties of the 20th century after the repeal of the legendary Anti-Witchcraft Act. What he did was to beg steal and borrow from many traditions, including Egyptian, Hindu, Hebrew, Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon. He mashed it together to form a pagan religion with elements from many REAL religions of the past, but with distinctly modern origins. Wicca therefore, is only 50 years old, though based on many older concepts.

I am just a general pagan, more like a shaman than anything else. In that respect, I follow the simple things that shamans have done for 30,000 years: I talk to plants, and speak to the sky, and speak to animals. I believe in an Earth Mother and a Sky Father, again concepts as old as the hills, hehe, literally!! ^_^
That is weird. Neat. I've honestly only ever have tried to speak to animals. They mostly don't listen. So I can't understand what you do.

I honestly thought Wicca was older. Whoops. Sorry.

dont pity me.

I dont like pity, I appreciate but no. IT's something I have had to go through, and believe it or not this is me on the other side of depression!

and actually you are wrong. trust me, i have been pagan for over 5 years. Wicca was founded by a man named Gerald Gardner in the early fifties of the 20th century after the repeal of the legendary Anti-Witchcraft Act. What he did was to beg steal and borrow from many traditions, including Egyptian, Hindu, Hebrew, Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon. He mashed it together to form a pagan religion with elements from many REAL religions of the past, but with distinctly modern origins. Wicca therefore, is only 50 years old, though based on many older concepts.

I am just a general pagan, more like a shaman than anything else. In that respect, I follow the simple things that shamans have done for 30,000 years: I talk to plants, and speak to the sky, and speak to animals. I believe in an Earth Mother and a Sky Father, again concepts as old as the hills, hehe, literally!! ^_^

Shamens were cool i read about them recently they had respect for things in this life

LoL we can teach morals our selves without a fantasy novel unless your uncapable of doing so - and need a book of fantasy to lead your life for you..

I need a book to to teach you morals son and its about a guy who came bak to life he was god - mary was pregnated by a spirit (lol=slut who could admit the father) and someone split the seas ...

Beleive me son for ever trust me and trust this world -- what a plavce to bring them into lol
Focus on the SECOND point.

It's okay, lol. It's not the most important fact in the world, but it DOES help when you get newbie wiccans who think they know everything (what a thing to believe!) saying very piously "wicca is thousands of years old". im pretty much a salt of the earth kinda pagan; walking boots, lots of rain, rough beard etc, lol (though i have no rough beard right now, lol).

oh and sometimes the crows speak back =) they usually do it by flying somewhere. sometimes while trying to shit on you at the same time, lol.

The Bible is extreamly complex. the fact we argue over its meanings and implications 2000 years later wth hundreds of different churches shows basically how complex it is. I am an athiest but that mean I believe Jesus was on crack. He and the rest of the bible have a lot to say. Look at it as a philosaphy. So he says he is the son of God. Perhaps he is, perhaps he isnt. Does it really matter for what he says? He is either right or wrong and unless you believe he is wrong you can still learn something from the bible.

On the other hand, forcing it on kids I am against. Do you expect them to get God's message? No. So, 1. By the time kids become adults and can actually figure out the world they will be so rooted in their childhood beliefs. 2. Forcing people any belief is wrong. 3. It puts custom over value. Go to church but you dont have to actually care about it.

I dont call myself a shaman, cos I am not training myself as one...yet.

But yes, I have respect for all life. I can no more kill a bee or fly than I can a person. It actually hurts if i do, like I've just shaken the earth =|

I believe that there is a balance to life: you do not take more than you need.
you do not overhunt, overharvest, or overkill. there is a cycle to these things, "circle of life" if u want to call it that.

but personally, i will not kill. guess im well on the way to being a shaman huh? lol

That is weird. Neat. I've honestly only ever have tried to speak to animals. They mostly don't listen. So I can't understand what you do.

I honestly thought Wicca was older. Whoops. Sorry.

The wicca that was christianised is 50 years old the stuff from before was more druid type - still christianity inlvolved but that spawned from celtic beleifs (some oif it ) before christianity and the viking took it to extremes ( slaughtering and sacrifice) as far as i know anyway..

I dont call myself a shaman, cos I am not training myself as one...yet.

But yes, I have respect for all life. I can no more kill a bee or fly than I can a person. It actually hurts if i do, like I've just shaken the earth =|

I believe that there is a balance to life: you do not take more than you need.
you do not overhunt, overharvest, or overkill. there is a cycle to these things, "circle of life" if u want to call it that.

but personally, i will not kill. guess im well on the way to being a shaman huh? lol
I can kill an insect very easily, because I have no care for it, sadly. I'll leave an insect alone if I can, though. I'm kind of cruel and uncaring. Even so, despite my desires of deityhood (I am NUTS), despite my desires for blatant destruction, despite my etreme enjoyment I derive from examining, researching and using weapons... I never want to kill a human being.

Druids, because of the fluifity of their beliefs, were able to assimilate themselves into christianity a lot more easily than some others. also, the church realised that the peoples' beliefs were so strong, they had to take over most of their festivals and practices. same thing happened in pagan rome, where a particular candlelit procession happens each year, and has done since before the fall of pagan Rome. The Vatican tried to stop it, but the people ignored them, so they blessed the candles, and open all the churches on that one day, lol.

the Celtic Church, from what i know, became distinct in its brand of christianity from the the rest of Christendom, hehe. no animal sacrficies, but the number three, the triple goddess (later became Saint, and now has been removed from the Church Canon as a Saint) Brigit, and many other things.
=)

Apparantly the chrstians came and logged the gods that the pagans beleived claiming they knew the truth as allways beleived then burnt the scottish women lol how nice of them ahahaha..

If they had tried to burn the men we would of wiped christianity out in a second..

So the scare tactics worked for a year or 2 then people realise orders by a christian king to become christian or be slaughtered where of his own beleif not theirs and they should make up their own minds .....

Apparantly the chrstians came and logged the gods that the pagans beleived claiming they knew the truth as allways beleived then burnt the scottish women lol how nice of them ahahaha..

If they had tried to burn the men we would of wiped christianity out in a second..

So the scare tactics worked for a year or 2 then people realise orders by a christian king to become christian or be slaughtered where of his own beleif not theirs and they should make up their own minds .....
Actually, it took a lot longer than one or two years. Fascism works really well. I can't give you even an approximate figure, but the kind of diversity we have today has not been tolerated for a long time.

In england (Britannia at that time), the christian faith just swept in like a tide. There was nothing the tribes could do, and they fought as hard as they could.

Then during the witch trials, they threw gay men and women on the fire too.That's why people call us faggots, because of those little sticks they used to light the fires with when they burtn people at the stake.

also, dont believe what most wiccans say about "the burning times" (witchtrials). most of those people who died at the stake were innocent old men and women, guilty of nothing but upsetting a neighbour or using a few herbs to get rid of a cold.

:(

but happily enough, im going back to my pagan roots, hehe. It's like coming home, i tell ya!

Actually, it took a lot longer than one or two years. Fascism works really well. I can't give you even an approximate figure, but the kind of diversity we have today has not been tolerated for a long time.


theres a very old saying in scotland iv heard some cool wiccas use LOL

The chritsian missed yin :)

In other words the foreigners couldn't poison our island that easily with their cheap insults and devilish tactics i found that soo funny ahahaha all that time and the christians didnt even know..

Im with god all is true Geez they dont change an inch do they " we know all we must rule ur land" ahaha get a grip m8 you ever had love and a family going - ahaha

Ahahahhaha


Must be the island

(said in a rough fishermans voice)

Wait theres more for ya ...

When the christians claimed the knew all and owned our lands *cough LOL* there was a pact put together against it that still goes on today lol of course they survived ya think anyone here would let twats like that come and try and kick what we had going - .. Geez ok then dumb christians

Its all another war conspiracy in the end - well I cant really see how the pagans done anything but christians burning my women alive cause they didnt beleive in god reminds me of some posts i see on here LOL

And no one will ever know my beleif cause i keep to myself and it aint nothing ive mentioned or has been mentioned :)

heheh its good when you show them up and they stop being abbrusive towards people who dont beleive in what they beleive in (its slipping from you)

having fun there camdean?lol

im just happy being me, pagan and all :)

sorry was away, was busy ironing my stuff for this wedding tomorrow, lol.

am off to be in about 20 minutes, veeeerrry long week it's been! lol
______
|iiiiiiiiiiiiiii|
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U
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it's a PUPPPEEEEETTT! lol

having fun there camdean?lol

im just happy being me, pagan and all :)

sorry was away, was busy ironing my stuff for this wedding tomorrow, lol.

am off to be in about 20 minutes, veeeerrry long week it's been! lol
______
|iiiiiiiiiiiiiii|
. .

U
____
\_/

it's a PUPPPEEEEETTT! lol


yes i was enjoying that bit of culture for the beleivers who beleive they are right NO MATTER WHAT lol..

But when the facts roll they run untill i goto bed

Before i do goto my bed and wet myself laughing heres something ..

Im singing this song for yall who know your wrong - thats right this dude is getting it on - his hair slicked back for no attack we simply sit back and laugh at the crack..

Bring it on

me too. a bit of culture never did anybody any harm ( apart from politicians, but then most of them count as evil beings of evil evilness )

hmmm. what do you believe then camdean? you know some of what i believe :)

*gets the late night brandy out*

lol, who's that little song by? hehe :D

You make quite a good point. Why do they ram Christianity down our throats at such early ages? Is it so it is easier to believe when you have no perception of the truth? After being a Anglican for about 13 years I turned to Taoism. It's a philosophy and I pefer it because you are not going to kill for your philosophical thoughts are you? You will kill for your beliefs. Anyway the less said the better

In england (Britannia at that time), the christian faith just swept in like a tide. There was nothing the tribes could do, and they fought as hard as they could.

Then during the witch trials, they threw gay men and women on the fire too.That's why people call us faggots, because of those little sticks they used to light the fires with when they burtn people at the stake.

also, dont believe what most wiccans say about "the burning times" (witchtrials). most of those people who died at the stake were innocent old men and women, guilty of nothing but upsetting a neighbour or using a few herbs to get rid of a cold.

:(

but happily enough, im going back to my pagan roots, hehe. It's like coming home, i tell ya!
I believe there is such thing as "Flying Ointment." Used by witches prior to flying... Made from Mandragora, a powerful hallucinogen...