NationStates Jolt Archive

Thats a ridiculous question, as parralels cant be drawn (as I have said) between somebody who wishes to dress differently, and somebody who wishes to change thier gender, they are both different 'desires' and one is not as extreme as the other.


I fail to see why they are different desires. You certainly place them along the same axis when you describe one as more extreme than the other. If you can make such a judgement about whether one is more extreme than the other, then parallels can certainly be drawn.

Maybe you would find it easier to draw parallels if we described some other forms of bodily modifications that people undergo, and see if they invoke the same hatred in you:
a.) getting your ears pierced.
b.) getting other body parts pierced.
c.) getting tattooed.
d.) getting branded.
e.) getting scarified.
f.) getting a nosejob.
g.) getting cosmetic breast enhancement.
h.) getting a facelift.
i.) getting a hair transplant
j.) self-castration
k.) amputation of limbs for sexual reasons.

My evidence is in what I have seen - That most of these people were social outcasts from a young age and suffered from a variety of social disorders such as a bad family. Again this is what I have seen, when I have watched New Reports e.t.c. I have yet to see studies done on the specific topic about attention seeking and if there were, I would gladly use them

Explain to me again the connection between the concept expressed in your first sentence (they have troubled backgrounds) and the concept expressed in your second sentence (I have no firm evidence that they are primarily motivated by seeking attention, but I maintain this position), would you?

From whence does the connection between a troubled background and being an attention seeker come?

From whence does the connection between a troubled background and being an attention seeker come?

For example - If you are ignored at home you will seek negative attention outside the home - its a commonly known psychological fact.

k.) amputation of limbs for sexual reasons.

Actually, I have only heard on amputation for the reason the person wont find him/her-self whole without it(yes, kinda ironic).

Maybe you would find it easier to draw parallels if we described some other forms of bodily modifications that people undergo, and see if they invoke the same hatred in you:
a.) getting your ears pierced.
b.) getting other body parts pierced.
c.) getting tattooed.
d.) getting branded.
e.) getting scarified.
f.) getting a nosejob.
g.) getting cosmetic breast enhancement.
h.) getting a facelift.
i.) getting a hair transplant
j.) self-castration
k.) amputation of limbs for sexual reasons.

Nope.

You are trying to make 'the desire to be different' one category, from the wearing of different clothes to the changing of your gender, you try to put it under 1 category.

You are trying to make 'the desire to be different' one category, from the wearing of different clothes to the changing of your gender, you try to put it under 1 category.

So how many desires to be different are there? (impossible question)

At root in all desires to be different there is a single desire, which finds expression in many different forms? Yes/No.

For example - If you are ignored at home you will seek negative attention outside the home - its a commonly known psychological fact.

'Negative attention' in this context meaning what actually?

If we let your statement stand, then explain to me again why you draw the line at those that seek 'negative attention' through doing a particular thing to their own body, but not to those who seek 'negative attention' by doing a different particular thing to their own body, if you would?

j.) self-castrationNope.

You are trying to make 'the desire to be different' one category, from the wearing of different clothes to the changing of your gender, you try to put it under 1 category.

Ah, so you have no problem with a man if they were to wear traditionally women's clothing and to castrate themselves, but if they get surgery to give the impression of female genitalia or taking oestrogen to promote mammary growth, then that crosses the line?

Judging by the initial poster's stance and tone, it seems like he/she (probably he) is more concerned about the possibility of falling for some hot young thang, only to discover that they're transgendered. It seems like a paranoid reaction rather than any sensible, reasonable stance.

Where I live there are two transvestites one trying to be a man and the other trying to be a woman, a drunk guy I was talking too fell for both of them as women and I had to tell him they werent women, he was devastated as both showed interest in him.

It does when you see them, it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

Hold up here a minute.

If you're talking about the clinical, official definition of a transgendered person, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL just by looking at them anyway.

So I have a feeling you are talking about something else, perhaps -- could you give us your definition of "transgender"? Because I have a feeling what you're talking about is more of a stereotypical "she-male" thing, which strikes me as a whole other category. As I understand it, the people who are transgendered because of gender identity crises AVOID the attention, and are barely indistinguishable from people who stayed the gender they were born with unless you're looking at them naked.

reproducing via parthinogenesis
What is this?

Some of the TG people I've known feel strongly that they represent an emerging '3rd gender', and there may be something to that.

I'm troubled by the notion of someone who claims to be a 'liberal', yet cannot find it within themselves to accept the transgendered. NWV, it sounds like you want to have your cake, and eat it, too. If you cannot accept or tolerate a significant minority within your culture, then you cannot claim to be 'liberal'. How can a 'liberal' be intolerant, and unaccepting?
I don't see how TGs are a third gender. BTW, I'm one of the transsexual "defenders" in this thread.

NWV is not a liberal. He is a socialist and he think that it is synonymous with "liberal". He's a conservative socialist.

parthinogenesis is asexual reproduction.

I mentioned the '3rd gender' thing 'cause, as I've said, I've heard this idea more than once from some of the TG people I've known down through the years. It's not my idea, per se. I made mention of it, though, true. I wasn't really expecting to have to discuss it at all, as it's not my own idea.

It's an interesting viewpoint, nonetheless.

I'm happy to hear you've been defending the transgendered. It's unfortunate that in our diverse Western culture, they, and any number of other minorities, need to be defended from intolerance and bigotry.

But the desire to be different in the sense that they will recieve more attention for it and it will fulfill thier inadequacies in life.

You need to step outside of yourself and listen to what you are saying. The desire to be different has nothing to do with feeling as if you are the wrong sex inside; thus, it is only acceptable that a transgender be what they feel they are... you have no proof, as is the same with all your threads, that transgenderness is an attention-seeking psychotheraputic disorder.

Yup, sure did. I also gave an in depth answer to an almost identical post, made by OmniCura, directly above where I quote you in my post. Here is the url of my post: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6771213&postcount=228
Please respond to that instead of acting outraged because I shortchanged the originality of your post.

and? i don't like people celebrating their differences. FOR WHATEVER REASON. I don't care if someone is gay/straight/curious. You can dress as a man, a women, hell dress up however makes you confortable.
Certain groups would not like to see a white pride parade because "oh no its racists, etc...". Any other group , race, religion, etc... Oh they suffered so much, give them equal treatment, etc.
It's all bollocks! (sorry mod). You cannot expect equality when your always saying we're different!!! (not aimed at you).
All people should have the same rights. ALL. But the minority cannot always expect the majority to bend to its will. in the end it could turn out badly.

Judging by the initial poster's stance and tone, it seems like he/she (probably he) is more concerned about the possibility of falling for some hot young thang, only to discover that they're transgendered. It seems like a paranoid reaction rather than any sensible, reasonable stance.

unfortunately is'nt that the whole problem will all gender/sex issues?

"oh no what happens if they try and convert me into one of THEM!!!!"
"poor timmy had one of THEM as teacher and look how he turned out"

It reminds me of a time when I posted on another board which I will not name an honest question. 'When I am walking past a group of Black Youths on the street when I am on my own I feel more scared than if they were White, Am I a racist?' Most of the people on the board posted (60%) that I was racist because I was generalizing, but they neglected to take into account that I recognise the reason for the rise in crime among black youths was poverty, and that simply sticking people in jail would not do anything about it - and that the proper response was more investment in education so the new generation would not have to be as poverty stricken as the prievous, and hence lower crime. Jews are statistically more likely to be nobel prize laureates than any other nationality. When you see a Jew walking down the street, do you wonder if he has the cure for cancer in his beast pocket? No! Because a very small percentage of Jews has won the nobel prize. Likewise a very small percentage of black youth engage in violant crime.

Yes, you have a racist conciousness. You should recodnize and accept this, and if you want to change it, then I applaud you. Many 'libiral' people think as you do but are not willing to admit it. There is nothing wrong with being a 'recovering racist.'

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) We were all born naked. We were all born without tatoos or piercings. Does your hatred extend to non-nudists and lovers of body art?

Your very theisis that trans folk are "trying to fullfill an indadaquacy" boggles the mind, particularly when homophobes make the same arguments about gays. And if you found yourself in bed with a post op trannie girl, would you even know? If you couldn't tell the difference, then why do you care?

Jews are statistically more likely to be nobel prize laureates than any other nationality. When you see a Jew walking down the street, do you wonder if he has the cure for cancer in his beast pocket? No! Because a very small percentage of Jews has won the nobel prize. Likewise a very small percentage of black youth engage in violant crime.


WELL I DIDN'T BEFORE, BUT NOW THAT YOU'VE PUT THE IDEA IN MY HEAD IT'S ALL I CAN THINK ABOUT.

The next time I see a Jewish person reach into their pocket for something, I'm going to scream, "Everyone hit the deck, he might have cold fusion in there!!!"

:headbang:
Pride parades and Prince and headresses aside, this is basically what we've learned today:

We've learned today is that the people against transexuals, transgenders, of even gays in general use their own sexual insecurity, narrow minds, firm belief that their morals should be everyones, and, in nazi's case, an apparent weak stomach for the unusual as basis for what they believe, whereas people who are for their civil rights and against hate speech towards them have presented logical, coherent, fact and experience-based arguments.

Those who continue to argue for the lockup of all the freaks and homogenizing of the world will not have their views changed by the educated, open-minded individuals who try their best to pull away the dark curtains of ignorance, especially online. Online arguments never get anywhere. they just dont.

So its useless. JUST GIVE IT UP ALREADY

Well.....?

Since you are Greek I thought you'd be into this man on man action. Hey it's the best of both world's.

. . .
Yet I hate Transexuals - Its not so much that I hate them but what the represent, the desire to be different, not the desire to different that some people have by listening to different music or wearing different clothes (something that is harmless). But the desire to be different in the sense that they will recieve more attention for it and it will fulfill thier inadequacies in life.

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

All of us with an open mind and a degree of compassion wants to see people treated equally, but my borders of equality do not stretch up to people trying to, as stated before, fulfill thier inadquacies by changing thier gender. At the heart of it all, as I said before, it insults me.

. . . .

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong? Even though I am a Liberal in every other aspect?

OH boy....

First, I'm very curious... exactly *how* do they insult you. Please explain this.

Further, unless you've done some research or talked to someone that is transgenered or on that path, you have no real basis for understanding where they are coming from.

Every day people under go procedures to fix things they don't like about themselves. It varies from something as simple as a manicure to a sex reassignment. To me, it's all in the same boat.

Let's be serious here. I like my wang. I would imagine most guys do. One would also assume that you'd have to be VERY determined to let anyone near it with a knife for the purpose of getting rid of it. You don't do it on a whim.. and certainly not for the 'fun' of it. It takes years to go through the process and you have to go through TONS of therapy.

These aren't just some schmo who wakes up one day and decides that he's sick of being a guy and he likes high heels. These are people that have *for their entire lives* felt as though they did not belong.. that they were not male/female and should have been born the opposite sex. If a medical procedure is out there that will allow them to be, what they honestly feel, is their 'true' self, why should you/me/we care?

As far as M to F transition, once the procedure is finished, even a good gynecologist cannot tell. So, there's not any 'fooling' to be had. They are women. Even the gov't says so. Chances are, you'd probably never know. ;)

As far as M to F transition, once the procedure is finished, even a good gynecologist cannot tell. So, there's not any 'fooling' to be had. They are women. Even the gov't says so. Chances are, you'd probably never know. ;)

You really think thats all their is too it, surgically change the sex organs around, pump some drugs into the body and presto hes a woman!

That doesnt make them women.
And if you believe it does then your seriously fucked up my friend.
As for the government telling me whats OK to like and whats not OK to like welllllllllllll.. I stopped believing them a long time ago.
Fact is if you believe in this crap your nothing but a sick pervert, and if the government is saying thats OK to be that way, well then I guess that just means there are a lot of sick perverts now in government, or at the head of influential organisations.
Ill probably get slammed for this, but the truth hurts doesnt it.

So because you don't like something, you're willing to see others suffer and get lynched if the try to express themselves.

What a sick, intransigent bastard.

You really think thats all their is too it, surgically change the sex organs around, pump some drugs into the body and presto hes a woman!

That doesnt make them women.
And if you believe it does then your seriously fucked up my friend.
As for the government telling me whats OK to like and whats not OK to like welllllllllllll.. I stopped believing them a long time ago.
Fact is if you believe in this crap your nothing but a sick pervert, and if the government is saying thats OK to be that way, well then I guess that just means there are a lot of sick perverts now in government, or at the head of influential organisations.
Ill probably get slammed for this, but the truth hurts doesnt it.The "truth". Where are your sources? I refer you to my sig.

Terminalia,
Are you familiar with the term "Self-loathing"?
It seems as though you are in possession of some very deep hatred of these type of people, maybe because deep down inside you sympathize with them and you hate what you may really be.

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much."
-Hamlet.

You really think thats all their is too it, surgically change the sex organs around, pump some drugs into the body and presto hes a woman!

No, it seems that that is what people opposed to sex-changes think.
Funny, just like how a lot of anti-abortionists seem to think that having an abortion is a simple matter of going to a clinic at 11:00, and then heading for the beauty salon at 12:00.

That doesnt make them women.
And if you believe it does then your seriously fucked up my friend.

Ah yes, the old 'Agree with me or you're dumb!' argument. Brings a tear to my eyes every time.

As for the government telling me whats OK to like and whats not OK to like welllllllllllll.. I stopped believing them a long time ago.

Leave the country?

Fact is if you believe in this crap your nothing but a sick pervert,

And here we have a classic example of using the word 'fact' in an attempt to lend credibility to one's position.
By starting his (her/its) line with 'Fact is', Terminalia is implying that the statement is commonly known to be true, and that only stupid people would disagree.
The insult thrown in afterwards only adds to the magic.

and if the government is saying thats OK to be that way, well then I guess that just means there are a lot of sick perverts now in government, or at the head of influential organisations.

Never too much of a good thing eh? Just keep calling people perverts, and you're sure to change a few minds.
I hope you're all writing this down.

Ill probably get slammed for this,

This, ladies and gentlemen (and everyone in between, considering the nature of the thread), is a prime example of 'appeal to pity'.
By insinuating that he'll get 'slammed', Terminalia is trying to make people feel sorry for him.
"Look at me, these mean people are slamming me. Surely you will now agree with me?"

but the truth hurts doesnt it.

Just to be sure though, he adds in another one of the 'This is the truth' comments.
A classic example of insinuating that the opposition actually knows you're right, but is simply pretending not to out of some desire for masochism.


An exellent post Terminalia, I give it a solid 8 out of 10.

So because you don't like something, you're willing to see others suffer and get lynched if the try to express themselves.

What a sick, intransigent bastard.

Of course not, I never said wipe them out, and sure if thats what you are, then by all means express yourself, but dont expect people like me to like it.

Why does it always have to be about what the minority wants, by this I mean if the majority are offended by you, then keep to your own areas, dont deliberately go to places like Church or schools where you are bound to cause offence, and then predictably whinge 'discrimination'when someone does.
Sick intransigent bastard, yep play the man with pathetic insults when you cant play the ball.

The "truth". Where are your sources? I refer you to my sig.

Thats good enough.

I may not like what you have to say about this particular issue, but I won't vilify you for it unless you start taking out your prejudices by discriminating against transgendered people.

I would describe myself as a moderate, but I'm in the United States, which is notorious for its inaccurate description of what it means to be liberal or conservative.

Terminalia,
Are you familiar with the term "Self-loathing"?
It seems as though you are in possession of some very deep hatred of these type of people, maybe because deep down inside you sympathize with them and you hate what you may really be.

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much."
-Hamlet.

Oh what aload of crap that is, I hate something therefore it must be in me, Ive got no repressed feelings and gone out on the town in drag myself for a laugh with mates, admittedly along time ago and fairly tanked.

Im not saying these people should be stopped from expressing themselves, but I dont agree with gender swapping, taxpayers having to pay for these operations, or it being recognised as a natural thing to do by the government.
If your born male and have a sexchange twenty years later, your still a male, and vica versa.

Most definetely dont agree with this being forced down kids throats in school and in the media as normal either.

[QUOTE=Hakartopia]No, it seems that that is what people opposed to sex-changes think.
Funny, just like how a lot of anti-abortionists seem to think that having an abortion is a simple matter of going to a clinic at 11:00, and then heading for the beauty salon at 12:00.

Funny how you people who have no problem with transgenders also are in love with baby killing as well.
It seems if anythings not good your all for it.



Ah yes, the old 'Agree with me or you're dumb!' argument. Brings a tear to my eyes every time.

And likewise, your throwing rocks in a glass house with that one mate.



Leave the country?

Do all the time I love to travel.



And here we have a classic example of using the word 'fact' in an attempt to lend credibility to one's position.
By starting his (her/its) line with 'Fact is', Terminalia is implying that the statement is commonly known to be true, and that only stupid people would disagree.
The insult thrown in afterwards only adds to the magic.

his. ;)



Never too much of a good thing eh? Just keep calling people perverts, and you're sure to change a few minds.

Hopefully.


Just to be sure though, he adds in another one of the 'This is the truth' comments.
A classic example of insinuating that the opposition actually knows you're right, but is simply pretending not to out of some desire for masochism.

Couldnt have put it better.

An exellent post Terminalia, I give it a solid 8 out of 10.

Really,I only gave it a 7 myself, but I'll take it anyway. :)

[QUOTE=Sarzonia]I may not like what you have to say about this particular issue, but I won't vilify you for it unless you start taking out your prejudices by discriminating against transgendered people.

I dont agree with the latest bullshit that a transgender is a normal man or woman.

And I dont think it should be taught in schools as such, or bought into law as such either.

I would describe myself as a moderate, but I'm in the United States, which is notorious for its inaccurate description of what it means to be liberal or conservative.

Here in Australia we have two major political partys, Liberal which is a conservative party, which of course I vote for, and Labor which is abit in your speak, 'liberal'.

Who I would never even consider voting for, even if you paid me.

A colleage mentioned something yesterday which raises interesting questions here. He was telling me about a person who had been born with both male and female genetalia. Was raised as a boy by 'his' parents, then during adolesence, decided that 'she' was a girl, and had an operation to remove the male genetalia, and started taking Oestrogen to promote the development of female secondary sexual characteristics.

For those of you 'sickened' by people deciding on their gender as something different from what they were born with, what do you think about situations like these when nature itself throws somebody a curve ball?

A colleage mentioned something yesterday which raises interesting questions here. He was telling me about a person who had been born with both male and female genetalia. Was raised as a boy by 'his' parents, then during adolesence, decided that 'she' was a girl, and had an operation to remove the male genetalia, and started taking Oestrogen to promote the development of female secondary sexual characteristics.

Just as note, this is very similar to my case. I was born externally male, but also with an underdeveloped uterus. Gentetically, I'm XX. For most of my life your wouldn't have questioned that I was male. Growing up I went through hell since I was feminine, and up until age 14 or 15 was mistaken for a girl from time to time. I never felt like a boy, and eventually persued transition.

It was only through a few quirks that occurred after I started treatment with hormones that revealed my internal situation.

It's really rare...and honestly stinks. It makes life amazingly complicated at times :-/ (Try getting an insurance company to pay for a hysterectomy when you're listed as male......)

Why does it always have to be about what the minority wants, by this I mean if the majority are offended by you, then keep to your own areas, dont deliberately go to places like Church or schools where you are bound to cause offence, and then predictably whinge 'discrimination'when someone does.

Yes, because we pay for education aswell, and we effectively pay to give religions their income-tax free status. Why should we be obliged to pay for something and not use it? Why should I contribute to the NHS if that money is used for abortions for heteros?

The minority wants to be able to walk down the street without fear of getting hassled- The majority already has that, amazingly enough.

You really think thats all their is too it, surgically change the sex organs around, pump some drugs into the body and presto hes a woman!

That doesnt make them women.
And if you believe it does then your seriously fucked up my friend.
As for the government telling me whats OK to like and whats not OK to like welllllllllllll.. I stopped believing them a long time ago.
Fact is if you believe in this crap your nothing but a sick pervert, and if the government is saying thats OK to be that way, well then I guess that just means there are a lot of sick perverts now in government, or at the head of influential organisations.
Ill probably get slammed for this, but the truth hurts doesnt it.

Your ingnorance on the subject shows in those comments, Terminalia. Fact: gender, as we are discovering, is NOT black and white. We are now learning that there are alot of gray areas in gender.

If you think I'm a sick fuck for believing that sex reassignment surgery does make them a woman/man, then tell me... what makes you a man? What is it about you that defines you as a man?

Also, it is rare that the government pays for this kind of operation and most health care systems won't either.

You are entitled to your opinioins... just as I am. The difference is, yours is prejudicial and judgemental.

Further, why do you care? Really. Did you go out on a date with a tranny?

Interestingly, I'm going to comment on another aspect of Friend NWV's post -- his crowing incessantly each time, after each of his remarks, "And guess what! I think that, and I'M A LIBERAL?"

....Yeah, so what?

What amazes me sometimes is this bizarre perception some people have of those with a liberal bent -- that we all march in lockstep. What, they think that someone says something and then they say they're a liberal, that all other liberals are going to say "Oh, they believe that, therefore so must I? Ooooh!"

feh.

I have seen that kind of thinking mainly in followers of various extremeist religious gurus, maybe, and to a lesser extent among Rush Limbaugh fans, but that's about it.

[QUOTE=Hakartopia]No, it seems that that is what people opposed to sex-changes think.
Funny, just like how a lot of anti-abortionists seem to think that having an abortion is a simple matter of going to a clinic at 11:00, and then heading for the beauty salon at 12:00.

Funny how you people who have no problem with transgenders also are in love with baby killing as well.
It seems if anythings not good your all for it.

Funny how I seem to have missed the part in my own post where I said it's ok to kill babies.
I suppose you also believe that atheists actually do believe in God, but are pretending not to so they do not have to change their sinful lives?

Ah yes, the old 'Agree with me or you're dumb!' argument. Brings a tear to my eyes every time.

And likewise, your throwing rocks in a glass house with that one mate.

If I have missed the point in that post, please point it out to me.

Just to be sure though, he adds in another one of the 'This is the truth' comments.
A classic example of insinuating that the opposition actually knows you're right, but is simply pretending not to out of some desire for masochism.

Couldnt have put it better.

No. No I expect you couldn't.

[QUOTE=Miraldi]Your ingnorance on the subject shows in those comments, Terminalia. Fact: gender, as we are discovering, is NOT black and white. We are now learning that there are alot of gray areas in gender.

Really, you mean there are more than two sexes roaming around this planet in huge numbers, a lot of grey areas hmm, you really believe your own bullshit dont you?

If you think I'm a sick fuck for believing that sex reassignment surgery does make them a woman/man, then tell me... what makes you a man? What is it about you that defines you as a man?

Alot of testosterone and a love of beer and fishing.

Also, it is rare that the government pays for this kind of operation and most health care systems won't either.

I take it your American.
Try to realise and comprehend then, that your country, is not the only one in the world, and believe it or not, things may be done differently in other places, in Australia the taxpayer foots the bill for these operations most of the time, even ones that are done for people in jail.

You are entitled to your opinioins... just as I am. The difference is, yours is prejudicial and judgemental.

Our opinions are different, yes and gee thanks for telling me I can have them.
You see mine as predjudiced and judgemental, and I see yours are sick and perverted.

Further, why do you care? Really. Did you go out on a date with a tranny?

I care because I dont like seeing something like this promoted as a normal part of society.
What will you standup and protect next as normal, Beastiality? Paedohilia?
Will that be the next social taboo you stand up and protect against 'predjudiced' and 'judgemental' people like me?

And no I didnt go out with a tranny, sorry Im just one of those weird people that like going out with the opposite sex of an acceptable age and nothing else, in my case female.

[QUOTE=Hakartopia]Funny how I seem to have missed the part in my own post where I said it's ok to kill babies.

Your pro choice right?

I suppose you also believe that atheists actually do believe in God, but are pretending not to so they do not have to change their sinful lives?

You really have to stop writing the answers for me, yes they are self centered materialistic people who live in denial most of their lives for precisely that reason.


If I have missed the point in that post, please point it out to me.

The point Harktopia is that you would disagree with me on the same basis.



No. No I expect you couldn't.

Well you pretty much nailed it, Ill give you that.

[QUOTE=Homocracy]Yes, because we pay for education aswell, and we effectively pay to give religions their income-tax free status.

Religons also help out with alot of underpriviliged people in society

Why should we be obliged to pay for something and not use it?

No ones stopping you from using it, just dont push some minority issue onto everyone else as something they should accept with no questions asked.

Why should I contribute to the NHS if that money is used for abortions for heteros?


I wouldnt contribute a tax cent to an abortion clinic either if I could help it.

The minority wants to be able to walk down the street without fear of getting hassled- The majority already has that, amazingly enough.

No one provided their not hurting or going out of their way to cause offence deserves to be harrassed.
The majority is the norm, funnily enough, so usually for that reason, doesnt harrass its own.

The 'majority' constantly weeds out those who don't 'fit', like overcrowded pens of chickens, pecking at each other. If there's no-one on hand to act as a watchdog, you end up with dead chickens. And the remaining ones get increasingly bloodthirsty, or at least, desensitized to violence in their midst.

Set those chickens free!

[B]Why should we be obliged to pay for something and not use it?

No ones stopping you from using it, just dont push some minority issue onto everyone else as something they should accept with no questions asked.

If you'll go back to what I quoted, you'll notice that it says gays and transgenders shouldn't go places such as schools and churchs, since they're bound to cause offence there. That's the same as saying we should be paying for these things and not using them, under the current system, unless you're advocating a fully private school system and tax of Churches in line with other businesses.

Women's and Black equality is legally accepted with no questions asked, what reason is there to discriminate against the LGBT community?

[QUOTE=Terminalia]
No ones stopping you from using it, just dont push some minority issue onto everyone else as something they should accept with no questions asked.
QUOTE]

So, you have some questions to ask? What about? Ask away. Will you stop grousing if you get some answers?

The 'majority' constantly weeds out those who don't 'fit', like overcrowded pens of chickens, pecking at each other. If there's no-one on hand to act as a watchdog, you end up with dead chickens. And the remaining ones get increasingly bloodthirsty, or at least, desensitized to violence in their midst.

Set those chickens free!

If you let the weeds take over your garden gets ruined, and instead of something pleasant to look at, you get an eyesore instead.

Pull out the weeds!

[QUOTE=Homocracy]Women's and Black equality is legally accepted with no questions asked,
What reason is there to discriminate against the LGBT community?

The no questions asked bit probably.

'Weeds' are subjective. If your garden is overflowing with 'weeds', you need to redefine what you should consider a 'weed', and plan some form of accomodation. I'm a gardener, mate. I keep my garden diverse and beautiful, 'weeds', herbs, wildflowers and all.

Besides, the allusion I made with the chickens was meant to underscore the need to look out for the underdog, while your riff on weeds smacks of the gas chamber.

You said earlier that you don't want some minority issue (this issue) pushed onto everyone else (meaning you) as something they (you) should accept with no questions asked. So you're saying there's room for compromise. You go ahead and ask your questions, and I'll try to accomodate you. Will that mollify you? Will that then assuage your fears, you big strong fearless member of an oppressive, intolerant majority? Come along then. Ask. I can't wait for you to shut up, once and for all.

[QUOTE=Dobbs TownSo, you have some questions to ask? What about? Ask away. Will you stop grousing if you get some answers?[/QUOTE]

Well my first and only question would be this, if I dont want to accept something, particularly something thats forced apon me in a manner which I must accept whether I like it or not, what are you going to do about it?

Are you going to whip out all your little PC'isms to label me with over the net, because I dont like something that you support?

Im sorry but its the 'no questions asked' bit that really gets in my craw, I like to have a choice.

Actually I do have another question for you, have you ever considered a possible backlash one day against too much liberalisation in your country, or others, one that could have a cumulative and reverse affect on all the rights that have been gained for other minoritys over the last century.

Your nation- (sorry I'll assume by your expression 'grousing' that your American, if Im wrong I apologise)- has also been called the 'Great Satan' by followers of Islam, do you think this is part of a coming backlash, against the standard of morality thats acceptable in your country and promoted world wide by you and other western nations as what must be followed as a mandate?

I think by pushing for too much one day you could loose everything.

[QUOTE=Dobbs Town]'Weeds' are subjective. If your garden is overflowing with 'weeds', you need to redefine what you should consider a 'weed', and plan some form of accomodation. I'm a gardener, mate. I keep my garden diverse and beautiful, 'weeds', herbs, wildflowers and all.

Great.

Besides, the allusion I made with the chickens was meant to underscore the need to look out for the underdog, while your riff on weeds smacks of the gas chamber.

I look out for the underdog as well, but not in the way your talking about, and I didnt mean to imply a mass slaughter in my analogy, more a return to traditional values, sorry if that shocks you so much.

You said earlier that you don't want some minority issue (this issue) pushed onto everyone else (meaning you) as something they (you) should accept with no questions asked. So you're saying there's room for compromise.

Of course theres room, and there will have to be some made soon, you guys that want to push everything down our throat knowing we wont like it might have to just back off soon for your own good.

Dont take that as a threat, just try and see it as good advice.

You go ahead and ask your questions, and I'll try to accomodate you. Will that mollify you? Will that then assuage your fears, you big strong fearless member of an oppressive, intolerant majority? Come along then. Ask. I can't wait for you to shut up, once and for all.

I asked the questions your talking about, so read them there, I couldnt be bothered wasting anymore type on you here.

Well, let's deal with your first and only question first. What am I going to do about it? Nothing much at all. You admit that you're part of the 'majority', and you and I both know that the 'majority' have had things 'their way' for a loooong time. I know quite well what life was like, living with the 'majority's' status quo. You presumably don't know what it was like. You didn't live with the prospect of being declared a sex offender, if caught, for engaging in consensual acts with other adults, even in the privacy of your own home. Talk about having issues pushed on you, howsabout having your sex life end up in a courtroom? Sheesh.

Next question- no, I'm not afraid of a backlash in the U.S., 'cause I'm not from there, 'cause on a certain level it'd seem somewhat abstracted to me because of geography- but mostly 'cause the U.S. is already in the depths OF a conservative, fundamentalist backlash...and if this is the worst they can come up with, well...it'll be overcome. Unless America actually does end up embracing despotism openly, then things could really take a tailspin.

So then...did I use a load of PC labels on you? Did I use the 'no questions asked' bit? Have you had your questions answered? Will you agree to disagree, in lieu of a rapprochement?

Well my first and only question would be this, if I dont want to accept something, particularly something thats forced apon me in a manner which I must accept whether I like it or not, what are you going to do about it?

Why should what any of us are willing to accept in our little minds be projected onto the statute books? I can accept someone not liking homosexuality, for example Eminem, but he at least recognises that it's a personal issue he has. I don't like heterosexuality and it's seems wrong to me, that doesn't mean I'd actually curb the rights of heterosexuals if they were in power(Hopes no-one's looking at nation name...).

If someone wants to change their gender, and a doctor or two is convinced it's a worthwhile procedure, there shouldn't be anything stopping them. This pseudo-tolerant idea of people being allowed to be different, as long as it's all behind closed doors is a nonsense. The LGBT community needs to be given representation, and currently Pride Marchs, Will and Grace and radicals nuts like Outrage are all there is. Take, for example, sex education: Does a gay teenager know ANYTHING about the risks of anal sex and how it they can be minimised? Are lesbians taught about the risk of herpes? Do any of us have the slightest clue what the dangers of using amyl nitrate are? We're just lead to assume that there's very little risk, and certainly no need for birth control.

We are not 'In your faces', you're in ours. Sit down in front of your tv sometime and count the number of heterosexual references compared to homosexual references. Outside of some grab at the pink dollar/pound like Will and Grace, Queer as Folk, or the ghastly Queer Eye(There are some really dumb hetero stereotypes in there), you'll find almost nothing. On a train journey from Hatfield to Stoke on Trent via London, I see heteros holding hands everywhere, PDAs, all of it. There is nothing gay around, and it freaks me out. This is why Pride Marchs are so popular- We can go somewhere and for one day feel NORMAL. We are not equally represented, we are certainly not overly represented- Can you say that even 5% of what you see at random with sexuality involved is gay?

And let's go back to the point I made earlier, if the law doesn't ask questions about why women and black people should be considered equal, why should it ask about gays? Or are you saying we should go back and analyse these aswell?

Sorry to have jumped in and stolen your thunder, homocracy- I'll leave you to it. Just wanted to say thanks for looking out for us all (LGBT+), and I've been following your posts for a while. Thumbs up!

1.)Well, let's deal with your first and only question first. What am I going to do about it? Nothing much at all. You admit that you're part of the 'majority',

2).and you and I both know that the 'majority' have had things 'their way' for a loooong time.

1).Yes I admit Im part of a majority thats no longer allowed to freely express itself, as it should be allowed too, whether you think its right or not.

2).Theres a good reason for that as well, its called opinion.

I know quite well what life was like, living with the 'majority's' status quo. You presumably don't know what it was like. You didn't live with the prospect of being declared a sex offender, if caught, for engaging in consensual acts with other adults, even in the privacy of your own home. Talk about having issues pushed on you, howsabout having your sex life end up in a courtroom? Sheesh.


Ive got no problem with what two consenting adults do in their own home with each other provided its not engaging in acts of beastiality or padeophilia.

And Id be just as disqusted at two heterosexuals being lewd in public as well.


Next question- no, I'm not afraid of a backlash in the U.S., 'cause I'm not from there, 'cause on a certain level it'd seem somewhat abstracted to me because of geography- but mostly 'cause the U.S. is already in the depths OF a conservative, fundamentalist backlash...

The US is a country of amazing extremes in huge social divides, despite having a conservative government.

and if this is the worst they can come up with, well...it'll be overcome. Unless America actually does end up embracing despotism openly, then things could really take a tailspin.

I dont think its over, not by a long chalk and what you would call despotism, I feel extremely comfortable with, one mans meat is another ones poison, so to speak.

So then...did I use a load of PC labels on you? Did I use the 'no questions asked' bit? Have you had your questions answered? Will you agree to disagree, in lieu of a rapprochement?

No you didnt, thanks, it makes a welcome change from the usual insults brayed senselessly at me.
Have to agree to disagree, I cant see much compromise either except to say that the smaller vehicle usually makes way for the larger one.
I dont believe in persecution of minoritys, but minoritys should always heed the majoritys opinion and never try to enforce their way of life as something the majority must accept as an equal one.

okay, but please try talking to homocracy from here on in, I'm done here (for now, anyway).

[B]Have to agree to disagree, I cant see much compromise either except to say that the smaller vehicle usually makes way for the larger one.
I dont believe in persecution of minoritys, but minoritys should always heed the majoritys opinion and never try to enforce their way of life as something the majority must accept as an equal one.

I thought it was supposed to be whichever has greater momentum has right of way? Or am I thinking about on hills? Enough driving analogies...

Why not? Why shouldn't I have the same right to my way of life, the same education in it as the majority gets? I'd argue along with you about giving special rights to specific groups(OOC, of course!), but surely we should have the same level of education, exposure and rights for how we live as anyone else? Is the situation where Will and Grace cashes in for smutty innuendo and some lame quips simply because 10% of us have nothing more relevant to watch really desirable?


Oh, Dobbs Town, no problem, it's always nice to have other people in a discussion. Nice to know I have some fans!

[QUOTE=Homocracy]Why should what any of us are willing to accept in our little minds be projected onto the statute books?

Laws are usually made with commonsense in mind, not that theres been much of that lately, homosexuality, although a part of the human condition, is a lifestyle out of the norm for most of society, and should be treated as such.

I can accept someone not liking homosexuality, for example Eminem, but he at least recognises that it's a personal issue he has. I don't like heterosexuality and it's seems wrong to me, that doesn't mean I'd actually curb the rights of heterosexuals if they were in power(Hopes no-one's looking at nation name...).

Heterosexuality seems wrong to you, fine I feel the same way about homosexuality.

1).If someone wants to change their gender, and a doctor or two is convinced it's a worthwhile procedure, there shouldn't be anything stopping them.

2).This pseudo-tolerant idea of people being allowed to be different, as long as it's all behind closed doors is a nonsense.

3).The LGBT community needs to be given representation, and currently Pride Marchs, Will and Grace and radicals nuts like Outrage are all there is.


1).Sure change your gender, but dont expect everyone to like it, and if they dont, get over it and move on.

2.) Anything goes right? lets all go down to the park and have a big orgy in broad daylight and see how many people we can offend, yeahhh!

3).So lets have some hetero parades as well then celebrating how straight we are, and then were going to thrust it in your face all day and night.
Yes we know your gay.. so why do you have to run around yelling about it all the time?


Take, for example, sex education: Does a gay teenager know ANYTHING about the risks of anal sex and how it they can be minimised? Are lesbians taught about the risk of herpes? Do any of us have the slightest clue what the dangers of using amyl nitrate are? We're just lead to assume that there's very little risk, and certainly no need for birth control.

You cant be serious, there is that more sex education on anything these days than you can poke a stick at.

Do you think kids should be taught sex education, particularly homosex education, before they have even reached the age of ten let alone puberty?

We are not 'In your faces', you're in ours. Sit down in front of your tv sometime and count the number of heterosexual references compared to homosexual references. Outside of some grab at the pink dollar/pound like Will and Grace, Queer as Folk, or the ghastly Queer Eye(There are some really dumb hetero stereotypes in there), you'll find almost nothing. On a train journey from Hatfield to Stoke on Trent via London, I see heteros holding hands everywhere, PDAs, all of it. There is nothing gay around, and it freaks me out. This is why Pride Marchs are so popular- We can go somewhere and for one day feel NORMAL. We are not equally represented, we are certainly not overly represented- Can you say that even 5% of what you see at random with sexuality involved is gay?

Of course were in your face, you live in a predominantly heterosexual society,whether you like it or not, and you cant just think that you can somehow call the tune, because its not being realistic mate.

And let's go back to the point I made earlier, if the law doesn't ask questions about why women and black people should be considered equal, why should it ask about gays? Or are you saying we should go back and analyse these aswell?

Well some analysing I would do would be to question the amount of support, groups, particularly women, have in society and government, compared to say white hetero men.

Also its quite acceptable now to have nonwhite clubs in Highschools or Universitys, however a girl in California tried to form a club at her school recently called the caucasian club and was not only lampooned and ridiculed as a racist by other students and teachers, but threatened with expulsion if she tried it again.

So who do you think are the sexists and racists that are accepted by western society now?

How can you call a Male to Female TG a "she"? i.e. "She did this, she did that"?

I don't hate transsexuals or anything, but they are not "he" or "she". Really, they are "it" (because they have conflicting indications of gender so as to be genderless).

I've said before, I will say again: Giving a "gender-confused" person surgery and other hormones is like opening a window to blow out a fire. It sounds like a reasonable course of action, but it's the opposite of what should be done :-)

Taking the gender-confused person to a psychologist is the same sort of thing as closing the windows to starve the fire of oxygen. It helps the fire to die down.

How can you call a Male to Female TG a "she"? i.e. "She did this, she did that"?

I don't hate transsexuals or anything, but they are not "he" or "she". Really, they are "it" (because they have conflicting indications of gender so as to be genderless).

I've said before, I will say again: Giving a "gender-confused" person surgery and other hormones is like opening a window to blow out a fire. It sounds like a reasonable course of action, but it's the opposite of what should be done :-)

Taking the gender-confused person to a psychologist is the same sort of thing as closing the windows to starve the fire of oxygen. It helps the fire to die down.

Question:

If they have surgery, and are happier because of it, then what's the problem? Especially if they're happier then they would be with just a psychologist?

Okay, last year I met an F2M who was just an amazing individual, but I had a hard time with the personal pronoun dealie 'cause I was asked by this person to refer to that person as, 'it'. So far, of all the TG people I've known, this was the only person who specifically asked me to refer to them in this manner, and- it kept tripping me up for the first few times we met.

I talked to it about the situation and apologized for constantly tripping over my tongue, but when I use the word 'it', I'm not thinking of a person- I'm thinking of an object, or perhaps an animal. I asked it why it preferred to be known that way instead of as 'him' (very convincing F2M you see) and it told me that it simply prefers the region between. I could absolutely respect that, but it took some time to rethink how to communicate on its' terms.

Laws are usually made with commonsense in mind, not that theres been much of that lately, homosexuality, although a part of the human condition, is a lifestyle out of the norm for most of society, and should be treated as such.

Caucasians are out of the norm for the human condition, but they do pretty well for themselves.

I can accept someone not liking homosexuality, for example Eminem, but he at least recognises that it's a personal issue he has. I don't like heterosexuality and it's seems wrong to me, that doesn't mean I'd actually curb the rights of heterosexuals if they were in power(Hopes no-one's looking at nation name...).

Heterosexuality seems wrong to you, fine I feel the same way about homosexuality.

So why treat the two differently?

1).If someone wants to change their gender, and a doctor or two is convinced it's a worthwhile procedure, there shouldn't be anything stopping them.

2).This pseudo-tolerant idea of people being allowed to be different, as long as it's all behind closed doors is a nonsense.

3).The LGBT community needs to be given representation, and currently Pride Marchs, Will and Grace and radicals nuts like Outrage are all there is.


1).Sure change your gender, but dont expect everyone to like it, and if they dont, get over it and move on.

2.) Anything goes right? lets all go down to the park and have a big orgy in broad daylight and see how many people we can offend, yeahhh!

3).So lets have some hetero parades as well then celebrating how straight we are, and then were going to thrust it in your face all day and night.
Yes we know your gay.. so why do you have to run around yelling about it all the time?

1) This isn't about like, it's about legal recognition of the person's status as determined by modern medicine.

2) Please, you're better than that. I just want to be able to walk down the street with a shirt that says 'I Can't Even Think Straight' without thinking twice. Public lewdness is ok as long as there aren't any unwilling witnesses.

3) Straight people walking down the street en masse being straight? Sounds like a normal day to me. I don't run around yelling it, I run around in threads about homosexuality yelling about it. Prove that homosexuality makes up more than 10% of the media and what you see in the streets.


Take, for example, sex education: Does a gay teenager know ANYTHING about the risks of anal sex and how it they can be minimised? Are lesbians taught about the risk of herpes? Do any of us have the slightest clue what the dangers of using amyl nitrate are? We're just lead to assume that there's very little risk, and certainly no need for birth control.

You cant be serious, there is that more sex education on anything these days than you can poke a stick at.

Do you think kids should be taught sex education, particularly homosex education, before they have even reached the age of ten let alone puberty?

First point: Obviously I missed it.

Second point: Sex education should be left until immediately before early puberty, an awareness of homosexuality as a fact of life should come much earlier- Remember how every example in a maths textbook has at least one funky ethnic name, every tv show has a token black person? Why not have the occassional kid with two dads randomly in a show, without an agenda?

We are not 'In your faces', you're in ours. Sit down in front of your tv sometime and count the number of heterosexual references compared to homosexual references. Outside of some grab at the pink dollar/pound like Will and Grace, Queer as Folk, or the ghastly Queer Eye(There are some really dumb hetero stereotypes in there), you'll find almost nothing. On a train journey from Hatfield to Stoke on Trent via London, I see heteros holding hands everywhere, PDAs, all of it. There is nothing gay around, and it freaks me out. This is why Pride Marchs are so popular- We can go somewhere and for one day feel NORMAL. We are not equally represented, we are certainly not overly represented- Can you say that even 5% of what you see at random with sexuality involved is gay?

Of course were in your face, you live in a predominantly heterosexual society,whether you like it or not, and you cant just think that you can somehow call the tune, because its not being realistic mate.

You admit that heterosexuality is everywhere and all pervasive, but say we shouldn't have Pride Marchs and such to gather with people with whom we have something central to our being in common?

And let's go back to the point I made earlier, if the law doesn't ask questions about why women and black people should be considered equal, why should it ask about gays? Or are you saying we should go back and analyse these aswell?

Well some analysing I would do would be to question the amount of support, groups, particularly women, have in society and government, compared to say white hetero men.

Also its quite acceptable now to have nonwhite clubs in Highschools or Universitys, however a girl in California tried to form a club at her school recently called the caucasian club and was not only lampooned and ridiculed as a racist by other students and teachers, but threatened with expulsion if she tried it again.

So who do you think are the sexists and racists that are accepted by western society now?

White, hetero men earn a damn sight more than anyone else, control the government, have the law noticeably skewed in their favour in word(See pension laws) and in action(Hear the works of NWA), have people like the KKK and National Front to support them, and unfortunately don't seem to have any moderate support groups- perhaps you could suggest a website?

Okay, last year I met an F2M who was just an amazing individual, but I had a hard time with the personal pronoun dealie 'cause I was asked by this person to refer to that person as, 'it'. So far, of all the TG people I've known, this was the only person who specifically asked me to refer to them in this manner, and- it kept tripping me up for the first few times we met.

I talked to it about the situation and apologized for constantly tripping over my tongue, but when I use the word 'it', I'm not thinking of a person- I'm thinking of an object, or perhaps an animal. I asked it why it preferred to be known that way instead of as 'him' (very convincing F2M you see) and it told me that it simply prefers the region between. I could absolutely respect that, but it took some time to rethink how to communicate on its' terms.

I remember reading of a system of gender-neutral but personal pronouns for people of mixed gender. 'S/he' (With a slight hold on the 'sh': sh-he) instead of he or she, 'hir' for him or her, and hish for his or her. Unfortunately this isn't widespread enough to really use, but it can be useful for talking with friends. I remember reading that many Native American languages have a grammatical third gender for 'twin-spirited' people, generally representing the LGBT spectrum.

I don't hate transsexuals or anything, but they are not "he" or "she". Really, they are "it" (because they have conflicting indications of gender so as to be genderless).
.
.
.

Taking the gender-confused person to a psychologist is the same sort of thing as closing the windows to starve the fire of oxygen. It helps the fire to die down.

Do you understand how utterly rude it would be to call someone an "it"? "It"s are things. Transsexuals are people. Avoid pronouns if it bothers you that much.

As for the psychologist. In order to start hormones, a transsexual needs at the minimum of 3 months of therapy, and a letter from a mental health professional stating that they feel that hormones are the right path.

Then to get surgery, it takes two letters, one from a Psychiatrist or PhD in Psychology, and a year of living as the 'correct' gender. Dealing with those requirements aren't easy. But for many people with Gender Identity issues suidide is the only other way to end the pain.

Personally, surgery seems like a better option.

[QUOTE=Homocracy]Caucasians are out of the norm for the human condition, but they do pretty well for themselves.

I wouldnt say their out of the norm, although going on birthrates they will be in fifty years time.
Yes they are doing well for themselves, but thats subject to change, Id say by the end of this century they will be history.


So why treat the two differently?

Because their not the same.



1) This isn't about like, it's about legal recognition of the person's status as determined by modern medicine.

Something Ill never back as legal or moral.

2a) Please, you're better than that. I just want to be able to walk down the street with a shirt that says 'I Can't Even Think Straight' without thinking twice.

You can, just depends on what street your on.
Would you like a hetero guy to walk around in a gay area with a 'I hate homos' top on?

2b) Public lewdness is ok as long as there aren't any unwilling witnesses

Your in public.. so theres a pretty good chance of unwilling wittnesses being around, this isnt directed at you because your gay, Id feel the same way if I saw a hetero couple bonking in the park.

3) Straight people walking down the street en masse being straight? Sounds like a normal day to me. I don't run around yelling it, I run around in threads about homosexuality yelling about it. Prove that homosexuality makes up more than 10% of the media and what you see in the streets.

Normal, yeah sure, I get sick and tired of hearing the mobs of hetero men roaring out their pride daily in being straight too.

More than 10% of the media, your in homodreamworld.


First point: Obviously I missed it.

Sure did, its been saturating kids for the last thirty years

Second point: Sex education should be left until immediately before early puberty, an awareness of homosexuality as a fact of life should come much earlier- Remember how every example in a maths textbook has at least one funky ethnic name, every tv show has a token black person? Why not have the occassional kid with two dads randomly in a show, without an agenda?

Because its sad and sick.

You admit that heterosexuality is everywhere and all pervasive, but say we shouldn't have Pride Marchs and such to gather with people with whom we have something central to our being in common?

I dont care if you have pride marches, just dont expect everyone to like them.

White, hetero men earn a damn sight more than anyone else, control the government, have the law noticeably skewed in their favour in word(See pension laws) and in action(Hear the works of NWA), have people like the KKK and National Front to support them, and unfortunately don't seem to have any moderate support groups- perhaps you could suggest a website?

The average white hetero male is a walking bank account for his divorced or soon to be divorced wife and kids.
He works hard at a job, pays alot of bills, including probably a morgage, and runs a car.
KKK is a sad and irrelevant organisation, and the average white hetero male doesnt have jack all to do with the national front.

Moderate support groups exclusively for white males or any males for that matter are small and seen as a joke by western society, dont have much funding or media exposure.
You see when the chips are down, being the sensitive new age geek suddenly takes a big back seat from all quarters to 'be a man, you can handle it' and 'you dont need any help'.
Which is ironic considering society has been telling men for the last twenty years to be sensitive and open up and be like well be like women I guess, but it wont throw enough funding or media coverage for any hetero male problems, social or medical or treat it with the same seriousness and gravity female social and medical problems get today.

A lot of testosterone and a love of beer and fishing.

Are you straight out of a Fosters ad or what? What about men who aren't into the aul' beer 'n' fishin' in the outback?

I wouldnt say their out of the norm, although going on birthrates they will be in fifty years time.
Yes they are doing well for themselves, but thats subject to change, Id say by the end of this century they will be history.Evidence?

Because their not the same.Why treat them differently in legal terms?

Something Ill never back as legal or moral.So you think modern medicine is wrong?


You can, just depends on what street your on.
Would you like a hetero guy to walk around in a gay area with a 'I hate homos' top on?Entirely different scenario. He/she's not talking about wearing a "I hate breeders T-shirt". So yeah, feel free to wear a "I'm not gay, me" T-shirt if you want.

Your in public.. so theres a pretty good chance of unwilling wittnesses being around, this isnt directed at you because your gay, Id feel the same way if I saw a hetero couple bonking in the park.It's pretty common though among all sexualitys.

Normal, yeah sure, I get sick and tired of hearing the mobs of hetero men roaring out their pride daily in being straight too.

More than 10% of the media, your in homodreamworld. Turn on the TV. How many hetero couples are there compared to gay ones? Go out on a Saturday night. How many hetero couples are snogging in the street compared to gay ones?



Sure did, its been saturating kids for the last thirty yearsStatistics.


Because its sad and sick./quote]'...it being a remarkable signe of an ill cause when aspersions supply the place of Arguments'

[quote]I dont care if you have pride marches, just dont expect everyone to like them.What do you propose doing about not liking them.

The average white hetero male is a walking bank account for his divorced or soon to be divorced wife and kids.
He works hard at a job, pays alot of bills, including probably a morgage, and runs a car.Are you arguing gay people don't have jobs, bills, mortgages and cars?
KKK is a sad and irrelevant organisation, and the average white hetero male doesnt have jack all to do with the national front.I'll agree with that. It's the white middle and upper class males in power I have a problem with.

Moderate support groups exclusively for white males or any males for that matter are small and seen as a joke by western society, dont have much funding or media exposure.Example.
You see when the chips are down, being the sensitive new age geek suddenly takes a big back seat from all quarters to 'be a man, you can handle it' and 'you dont need any help'.
Which is ironic considering society has been telling men for the last twenty years to be sensitive and open up and be like well be like women I guess, but it wont throw enough funding or media coverage for any hetero male problems, social or medical or treat it with the same seriousness and gravity female social and medical problems get today.I can only speak for the UK, but the goverment here has been running "testicular cancer awarness campaigns" recently. Why do you think being sensitive and opening up about your feelings is a specifically female trait?

but can someone explain why transgenders (the ones i know anyway) want to wear cloths of the opposite sex. Let me give an example. This guy feels that he is a women except for the fact that he has male genatalia. So he says he likes wearing a bit of make-up. no problem. wearing women close, nice suit, etc.. ok. But why the overly flamboyant cloths??? Why not just wear uni-sex cloths?

Do not wish to offend, just curious....

but can someone explain why transgenders (the ones i know anyway) want to wear cloths of the opposite sex. Let me give an example. This guy feels that he is a women except for the fact that he has male genatalia. So he says he likes wearing a bit of make-up. no problem. wearing women close, nice suit, etc.. ok. But why the overly flamboyant cloths??? Why not just wear uni-sex cloths?

Do not wish to offend, just curious....

I've never met a transsexual that wore flamboyant clothes for any reason other than they hadn't figured out what they should and should not wear. It's a learning experience. After going fulltime, they pretty much all wore what any other woman their age/body would wear.

For crossdressers/drag queens/other transgendered I can't answer that.

but can someone explain why transgenders (the ones i know anyway) want to wear cloths of the opposite sex. Let me give an example. This guy feels that he is a women except for the fact that he has male genatalia. So he says he likes wearing a bit of make-up. no problem. wearing women close, nice suit, etc.. ok. But why the overly flamboyant cloths??? Why not just wear uni-sex cloths?

Do not wish to offend, just curious....

my question is why we still have people who think ANY clothes are non-unisex. i don't see why people can't just wear whatever they like; who cares? if a woman feels comfortable in a tux or a pair of men's jeans then let her wear them, and if a man wants to wear a pink sundress i don't see who it hurts. people should probably stick to clothes that are flattering on them if they wish to be attractive, but if they just want to be comfortable then who the hell gives a damn?

the only reason there needs to be a distinction between mens and women's clothing is tailoring; some clothes simply won't fit on a person of the wrong gender, since they are cut for contours that one gender doesn't fit. but that's purely mechanical, and shouldn't stop anybody from having garments tailored to them if they like.

clothing is decoration, so let's allow people to decorate according to their personal tastes.

but can someone explain why transgenders (the ones i know anyway) want to wear cloths of the opposite sex. Let me give an example. This guy feels that he is a women except for the fact that he has male genatalia. So he says he likes wearing a bit of make-up. no problem. wearing women close, nice suit, etc.. ok. But why the overly flamboyant cloths??? Why not just wear uni-sex cloths?

Do not wish to offend, just curious....

Easy. You don't notice the ones who wear 'normal' clothing.
Just like you don't notice the gays who don't act like flaming queens.
And you don't notice the black people who do have a job and don't go around stealing and selling drugs.
And you don't notice the Christians who simply go to church on Sunday and don't carry around signs saying 'God hates fags!'.
Nor do you notice the muslims who don't fly airplanes into skyscrapers.
Etc.

[QUOTE=The Holy Word]Evidence?

Read the papers, declining birthrates among caucasians in western nations are common knowledge, particularly in Europe.

Why treat them differently in legal terms?

Because there is no reason or justification for gay people to get married as a gay couple.



So you think modern medicine is wrong?

In this matter and some others yes, its going frankenstine.

Entirely different scenario. He/she's not talking about wearing a "I hate breeders T-shirt". So yeah, feel free to wear a "I'm not gay, me" T-shirt if you want.

I dont need or would even want to wear something so stupid.

It's pretty common though among all sexualitys.

Statistics?

Turn on the TV. How many hetero couples are there compared to gay ones? Go out on a Saturday night. How many hetero couples are snogging in the street compared to gay ones?Well depends on where you go doesnt it, and if I saw gay men snogging on TV Id probably change the channel.

Statistics.

Its pretty much common knowlege that almost all western kids have recieved sex education since the seventies, I was introduced to the charts of sexual organs and what they do to each other when I was about 9, something I really needed to know about too..
If you didnt get any you must have been in an Amish Community or something.

[quote]
Because its sad and sick./quote]'...it being a remarkable signe of an ill cause when aspersions supply the place of Arguments'

Probably because something as tragic and ridiculous as this shoudnt even be taken seriously in the first place, sad.. and sick.

What do you propose doing about not liking them.


As long as it doesnt come into my world I usually ignore it, if its pushed into my face anywhere in an unwelcome manner somewhere I'll use violence in a fast and extremely effective way.
Works well.
Example, a year ago I was walking in a gay area, minding my own business when two gay males that had come out of a gay night club and smelt absolutely disqusting, one of them decided to grope me on the arse at the lights I was waiting at, so I used some violence on him, I didnt enjoy that, but being sexually harrassed isnt a pleasant experience either.
I was screamed homophobe at too by his partner as I walked off.

Are you arguing gay people don't have jobs, bills, mortgages and cars?
I'll agree with that. It's the white middle and upper class males in power I have a problem with.

Gay people usually dont have familys to support either, that chews up more money than anything.
Do you have a problem with white middle and upper class females as well?

Example.
I can only speak for the UK, but the goverment here has been running "testicular cancer awarness campaigns" recently. Why do you think being sensitive and opening up about your feelings is a specifically female
trait?

In Australia there are womens clinics, women only business conferences, women only surgerys, gyms, even a library in Sydney is for females only.
Imagine if it was the other way around, the feminists would be screaming their heads off.
Millions goes each year to stopping breast cancer, which is good of course, but a larger % of men suffer prostrate cancer and that doesnt even get a quarter of the funds to fight it.

I didnt say it wasnt Wrong for men not open up, I said its ironic that men are encouraged on one hand now to do the same, then told to grow up and be a man when they do open up,complain or cry.
Its just a two edged sword, my advice to other guys is if your going to break down do it alone in private and dont tell anyone.

Example if a man breaks down and crys in public everyone takes no notice or call him names like weak, and girl, if a woman does the same, its 'ohhh whats the matter, are you OK?'

I agree, I do believe society is moving so quickly towards eauality for all that we are overlooking the issues the created inequality in the first place. This may seem the qucik answer, to move foward that is, but in the long run we are only going to end up back where we started.. And on the racist thing, no you are not racist, you are more likely to be attacked by someone of a different race as they can't relate to you the way they can with someone of their own race. It's not just black gangs but all gags, they will rather attack you than someone of their own race because instantly an Asian will have a closer connection with another asian, as a white person does to another white person, it is in your sub-conscience. Hey maybe the fact that we are pushing so strongly for equality and not actually dealing with the deeper issues may be the reason why people arn't completely comfortable around eachother, just a thought.....

Are you straight out of a Fosters ad or what? What about men who aren't into the aul' beer 'n' fishin' in the outback?

There isnt much fishing going on in the outback, and I havent seen anyone open up a can of fosters for nearly twenty years, we drink VB and Tooheys in NSW, XXXX and Powers in QLD, we also drink alot of Hahn, Heinekin, Coopers, Swan in West Aussie, and the Tasmanians like Cascade which is pretty nice, Resches is making a comeback as well, but as for Fosters, its an American Myth, hardly anyone drinks it in NSW, I think its more popular down in Victoria.

I prefer fishing off rocks on the beach or in a boat, a jetty would be the last resort.
There isnt any fishing outback, because theres no water, its so dry.

Im sure men who dont like fishing or drinking can find other outdoor stuff to get into, like shooting wild pigs, or rallydriving etc
If you guys are ever getting bored with life you might just need an adrenalin kick to get your blood pumping again, boredom leaves quickly.

Yet I hate Transexuals - Its not so much that I hate them but what the represent, the desire to be different, not the desire to different that some people have by listening to different music or wearing different clothes (something that is harmless). But the desire to be different in the sense that they will recieve more attention for it and it will fulfill thier inadequacies in life.

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men


OK so you would rather have an entire population miserable about their own existance? Would you like to see a rapid increase of suicides from these transexuals who feel so trapped that death seems like the only way out? Transexuals feel there is a defect with them and cosmetic surgery is the cure. It's no different than someone with an extra toe getting it removed in order to feel more normal.

The fact is everyone is different, like it or not and to me it seems very cynical of you to discriminate between someone's sexual preference or sexual association as being less acceptable than someone's taste in music. These are simply facets of people's personality and for them to deny it would be the greatest crime of all.

If you don't want to be a part of it, the fact of the matter is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO. So stop being an arrogant baby and maybe then someone will welcome you to reality.

[QUOTE=The Holy Word]Evidence?

Read the papers, declining birthrates among caucasians in western nations are common knowledge, particularly in Europe.

What does that have to do with allowing people rights? Anyway, if adoption, surrogacy and turkey-baster antics are supported by gay marriage and transgender recognition, there will be more Caucasian babies. Also, you have a stronger position to try and convince women to bring a child to term and put it up for adoption. Anyway, the fall is mostly due to modern living expectations.

Why treat them differently in legal terms?

Because there is no reason or justification for gay people to get married as a gay couple.

Apart from having the legal benefits given to married couples that have nothing to do with reproduction. Apart from not discriminating on basis of gender. Apart from freedom means freedom for all.


Statistics.

[Its pretty much common knowlege that almost all western kids have recieved sex education since the seventies, I was introduced to the charts of sexual organs and what they do to each other when I was about 9, something I really needed to know about too..
If you didnt get any you must have been in an Amish Community or something.

Obviously there's been a misunderstanding. Heterosexual sex-education has been going on, but next to none of it is of use to gay people. There is no homosexual sex-education in the system, or can you cite evidence for it?

What do you propose doing about not liking them.


As long as it doesnt come into my world I usually ignore it, if its pushed into my face anywhere in an unwelcome manner somewhere I'll use violence in a fast and extremely effective way.
Works well.
Example, a year ago I was walking in a gay area, minding my own business when two gay males that had come out of a gay night club and smelt absolutely disqusting, one of them decided to grope me on the arse at the lights I was waiting at, so I used some violence on him, I didnt enjoy that, but being sexually harrassed isnt a pleasant experience either.
I was screamed homophobe at too by his partner as I walked off.

A man laid his hand on you and you responded in a violent manner? When a man gropes a woman's arse, it's expected that she just slaps him and calls him a pig.

Are you arguing gay people don't have jobs, bills, mortgages and cars?
I'll agree with that. It's the white middle and upper class males in power I have a problem with.

Gay people usually dont have familys to support either, that chews up more money than anything.
Do you have a problem with white middle and upper class females as well?

Gay people don't have families? I'm afraid you're wrong, a lesbian couple I know have children from ones former relationship, a gay friend of mine has a lesbian mother(and younger brother), and my father has experimented in his younger days. The only reason gay people don't have families is because of the lack of legal stability to the relationship, and as you said back up top, Caucasians have smaller families, so they can't be that much of a drain, compared to ethnic minority families.

In addition, many straight married couple choose not to have a family, and no one is proposing they shouldn't be allowed to marry.

In addition, many straight married couple choose not to have a family, and no one is proposing they shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Yeah, but no-one ever responds to that point.

Well, the occasional person comes out and says that they shouldn't. At least such people are consistent...

I don't hate transgenders. I just don't get them. I don't get why you can be so dissatisfied with your self that you need to undergo a surgical procedure to remidy it.

I don't hate transgenders. I just don't get them. I don't get why you can be so dissatisfied with your self that you need to undergo a surgical procedure to remidy it.

An Arab man is brought up in a Muslim household, studies the Quran, prays five times a day, fasts in Ramadan, goes to Mecca, everything. Even during this, he is aware of a dissatisfaction with Islam. Upon meeting and speaking with a Christian, he realises that Christianity is his true faith. He converts, and goes through baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, etc. This is understandable?

A man has been brought up in regular home, plays football, wears trousers and is given cars and GI Joes to play with. All through this, he feels it's not whathe's supposed to be, that he identifies as a woman in his heart. He goes for counselling. He realises he is transgender, and goes through deep psychological examinations, hormone therapy and eventually surgery, etc. Is this understandable?

[QUOTE=Homocracy]What does that have to do with allowing people rights?

Nothing, I was responding to your queery on why caucasians are a race in rapid decline.

Anyway, if adoption, surrogacy and turkey-baster antics are supported by gay marriage and transgender recognition, there will be more Caucasian babies.

How so?

Also, you have a stronger position to try and convince women to bring a child to term and put it up for adoption.

By gay people?
That would probably turn even more women off childbirth, things are bad enough as they are.

Anyway, the fall is mostly due to modern living expectations.

True, and the modern living expectations are no longer much good for a healthy minded society.

Apart from having the legal benefits given to married couples that have nothing to do with reproduction. Apart from not discriminating on basis of gender.

This goes beyond legal benefits sorry, men and women have been getting paired up and recognised by their social peers as a union thats right, long before courts were even thought of, sorry but there is no reason for gay marriages to be recognised by society or law, there isnt going to be a social or economical disaster if gays are not seen as married by law or society.

Apart from freedom means freedom for all.

Not if its going to cause alot of offence.

Obviously there's been a misunderstanding. Heterosexual sex-education has been going on, but next to none of it is of use to gay people. There is no homosexual sex-education in the system, or can you cite evidence for it?

Nor should there be any.
Ive read on other websites of pressure being put on students in Unis in America to learn about various aspects of homosexuality in lectures.

A man laid his hand on you and you responded in a violent manner? When a man gropes a woman's arse, it's expected that she just slaps him and calls him a pig.

But Im not a woman, and some of the women I know would go abit further than just a slap in the face and calling their harrasser a pig.

Gay people don't have families? I'm afraid you're wrong, a lesbian couple I know have children from ones former relationship, a gay friend of mine has a lesbian mother(and younger brother), and my father has experimented in his younger days. The only reason gay people don't have families is because of the lack of legal stability to the relationship, and as you said back up top, Caucasians have smaller families, so they can't be that much of a drain, compared to ethnic minority families.

From former hetero relationships yes Ive already discussed this on here, and I dont agree that its right for gay people to adopt babies and raise them in a gay household either.
Caucasians also are huge consumers, so they buy the latest stuff for their kids to keep them happy, just because their friends have it.
Things have changed alot since I was a kid, the only time we were given anything was Christmas and Birthdays.

Anyway, if adoption, surrogacy and turkey-baster antics are supported by gay marriage and transgender recognition, there will be more Caucasian babies.

How so?

Caucasian queers have a stable legal unit to form a family with, so more will form a family.

Also, you have a stronger position to try and convince women to bring a child to term and put it up for adoption.

By gay people?
That would probably turn even more women off childbirth, things are bad enough as they are.

That's such a fucking joke- Life in a gay house is worse than death? And I thought women considered compassionate and open gay men to be ideal fathers.

Anyway, the fall is mostly due to modern living expectations.

True, and the modern living expectations are no longer much good for a healthy minded society.

So the fall has little relevance to a discussion on LGBT issues.

Apart from having the legal benefits given to married couples that have nothing to do with reproduction. Apart from not discriminating on basis of gender.

This goes beyond legal benefits sorry, men and women have been getting paired up and recognised by their social peers as a union thats right, long before courts were even thought of, sorry but there is no reason for gay marriages to be recognised by society or law, there isnt going to be a social or economical disaster if gays are not seen as married by law or society.

The Church was quite happy to perform same-sex marriages up until the 12th Century.

Apart from freedom means freedom for all.

Not if its going to cause alot of offence.

What in the fuck have my freedom and your sensibilities got to do with each other? It's not like I'm spouting something dangerous like a genocide against heteros- I don't hate heteros, I have a lot of straight friends!

Obviously there's been a misunderstanding. Heterosexual sex-education has been going on, but next to none of it is of use to gay people. There is no homosexual sex-education in the system, or can you cite evidence for it?

Nor should there be any.
Ive read on other websites of pressure being put on students in Unis in America to learn about various aspects of homosexuality in lectures.

You're opposed to the whole idea? Well then, let's engage imagination- say sex education is acceptable, should homosexuality be taught aswell as heterosexuality?

A man laid his hand on you and you responded in a violent manner? When a man gropes a woman's arse, it's expected that she just slaps him and calls him a pig.

But Im not a woman, and some of the women I know would go abit further than just a slap in the face and calling their harrasser a pig.

So you respond with unreasonable force? If someone goes to punch you, you don't have the right to shoot them. In what way does a hand on you constitute a threat you can't nullify by batting the hand away and saying "fuck you!"?

Gay people don't have families? I'm afraid you're wrong, a lesbian couple I know have children from ones former relationship, a gay friend of mine has a lesbian mother(and younger brother), and my father has experimented in his younger days. The only reason gay people don't have families is because of the lack of legal stability to the relationship, and as you said back up top, Caucasians have smaller families, so they can't be that much of a drain, compared to ethnic minority families.

From former hetero relationships yes Ive already discussed this on here, and I dont agree that its right for gay people to adopt babies and raise them in a gay household either.
Caucasians also are huge consumers, so they buy the latest stuff for their kids to keep them happy, just because their friends have it.
Things have changed alot since I was a kid, the only time we were given anything was Christmas and Birthdays.

1. Provide evidence the child is somehow harmed by being raised by gay parents.

2. Wait, you say modern living expectations aren't much good for a healthy society, then you go like a woman in a divorce court defending the life to which one has grown accustomed?

[QUOTE=Homocracy]Caucasian queers have a stable legal unit to form a family with, so more will form a family.

Try to understand,a family is not one of two men having sex with each other raising kids or two women having sex with each other and raising kids, a family is a man and a woman having their own kids or adopting kids to raise if they cant.

That's such a fucking joke- Life in a gay house is worse than death? And I thought women considered compassionate and open gay men to be ideal fathers.

Not worse than death, just not a healthy enviroment to raise kids in, being compassionate is a good quality to have, that doesnt necessarily make you a good father.


So the fall has little relevance to a discussion on LGBT issues.

I would say it has a lot of relevance.


The Church was quite happy to perform same-sex marriages up until the 12th Century.

Proof?

What in the fuck have my freedom and your sensibilities got to do with each other?

Well obviously they conflict.

You're opposed to the whole idea? Well then, let's engage imagination- say sex education is acceptable, should homosexuality be taught aswell as heterosexuality?

No, it isnt necessary or important.



So you respond with unreasonable force? If someone goes to punch you, you don't have the right to shoot them. In what way does a hand on you constitute a threat you can't nullify by batting the hand away and saying "fuck you!"?

There are no rules for different situations, he sexually assaulted the wrong guy and simply paid the price,I probably did him a big favour by just giving him a lesson, some guys I know would have tried their best to kill him for that.
Like I said I didnt feel very good about it afterwoulds, but I felt pretty degraded by the experience at the time.

1. Provide evidence the child is somehow harmed by being raised by gay parents.

I dont think it will hurt them, but I dont like the idea of kids growing up in this unhealthy situation thinking its right or normal.

2. Wait, you say modern living expectations aren't much good for a healthy society, then you go like a woman in a divorce court defending the life to which one has grown accustomed?

Im not defending modern western society at all, over the last thirty years it has become sick and perverted, allowing gay marriage would be another nail in its coffin.

i see homophobia is still rife in society...sad really..and if gays and transexuals etc. are so abnormal in some people's view, then what about the man in the wheechair, or some poor child with polio or some other deforming disease, do you take the same view with them also?.....or is it just a god thing?
there is also a suggestion that those most against homosexuality are having trouble with thier own sexuality, and use it as a mask

[QUOTE=Dacowookies]what about the man in the wheechair, or some poor child with polio or some other deforming disease, do you take the same view with them also?.....or is it just a god thing?

Just a God thing.

there is also a suggestion that those most against homosexuality are having trouble with thier own sexuality, and use it as a mask

Im not totally against it, gays have always been around and always will be, I just think they are really stepping over the line with gay marriage and raising kids.
Im not gay, I dont feel any secret attraction sexually to men and have a girlfriend.

I don't hate transgenders. I just don't get them. I don't get why you can be so dissatisfied with your self that you need to undergo a surgical procedure to remidy it.

Neither do transsexuals, another reason that their condition is so painful and makes it even worse when they discover that people are "offended" by them or "hate" them...in the same way a person with ginger hair would be if they found that someone was offended by the colour of their hair. I don't think anyone really understands transgenderism, let alone the transgendered. They just try and deal with it in the best way they can...

The Church was quite happy to perform same-sex marriages up until the 12th Century.

Proof?

http://www.drizzle.com/~slmndr/salamandir/pubs/irishtimes/opt3.htm

A few instances here and there dont make it an acceptable wide practice, were talking about millions of people over a long period of time accepting something, not what your source has, and I seriously doupt these priests were anything but Christian.

Gays aren't as common as straights, funnily enough, so don't expect to find gay marriage on anything approaching the scale of straight marriage, especially when most families wanted their son to have kids and didn't care what their daughter wanted.

Gays aren't as common as straights, funnily enough, so don't expect to find gay marriage on anything approaching the scale of straight marriage, especially when most families wanted their son to have kids and didn't care what their daughter wanted.

Regardless I dont believe the Church on a wide spread basis recognised gay marriage as a norm or performed the ceremonys for it.

A few things.

Nobody gives a shit what the churches think. or shouldn't anyways. Nobody is FORCING churches to marry gay people-no, we're forcing them NOT to. Several churches were.

Answer me this- if two men have sex, is some evil family destructo-ray beam fired that destroys heterosexual marrige? No? Then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

You don't like gay people. Whoop de doo! Here. **gives a cookie**. Wanna know a secret? I don't care. Nobody really does. Some people don't like people of other races. Some guys are mysogonists. Nobody cares about them either. I don't see people trying to force them out of the country. Well, some wackos here and there are, but they'll always be around. And it looks like you're going to be one of them.


Further questioning: can you prove that having two gay or lesbian parents make a child grow up with a disadvantage?

Here are answers that arn't allowed:

"kids will tease them." Kids are little shits. They tease everyone for everything. Get used to it.

"it's wrong." Sorry, that's what you're trying to PROVE. "It's wrong because it's wrong" isn't an answer.

"Kids need a dad and a mom." Once again, PROVE IT.

Well I would but I think your nothing but a rude idiot so I wont even bother replying to any of your polite and thoughtful little questions, this will be the last time I'll bother wasting any time on you at all, seeya mate, dont fall in front of any trucks now.

Unitarian Ministers have performed gay marriages for as long as I can remember. Having been raised Unitarian, and not considering myself Christian, I know a great many more Unitarians who would passionately describe themselves as Christian. So whether Unitarians are Christians is debatable (and the source of many a Unitarian sermon), but I would characterize them as having developed from Christianity, a sort of...progressive form of Christianity.

Unitarian Ministers have performed gay marriages for as long as I can remember. Having been raised Unitarian, and not considering myself Christian, I know a great many more Unitarians who would passionately describe themselves as Christian. So whether Unitarians are Christians is debatable (and the source of many a Unitarian sermon), but I would characterize them as having developed from Christianity, a sort of...progressive form of Christianity.

I dont consider Unitarians as true Christians, they have compromised Gods values for the worlds instead.
You call it progressive, Ill call it what it is instead, perverted.

I dont consider Unitarians as true Christians, they have compromised Gods values for the worlds instead.
You call it progressive, Ill call it what it is instead, perverted.
Do you think you have a handle on God's "values"?

Do you think you have a handle on God's "values"?
Yes.

I dont consider Unitarians as true Christians, they have compromised Gods values for the worlds instead.
You call it progressive, Ill call it what it is instead, perverted.

Don't expect me to rise to the bait, little man. Think on this carefully: if you consider yourself Christian, you're declaring yourself as worthy of God's eventual eternal judgement. Remember all that stuff you're supposed to believe in? Good boys and girls float on clouds, etc, while bad little boys and girls with blackened lumps of concentrated evil where their hearts should be fry like bacon in the skillet o' Hell? Don't think for a minute that slagging good people with kind hearts is going to win you any brownie points with your God, Jehovah- when you die and face judgement. Unfortunately for you, your God is all about vengeance and retrivution. He also is all about those pesky COMMANDMENTS you SEEM TO HAVE TOTALLY FORGOTTEN- and somehow, I don't think Jehovah is going to cut you any slack for FUCKING UP on this TEMPORAL PLANE.

I may have been raised by the Unitarians to be tolerant, but NO WAY do I have to put up with your INtolerance. Asshole!

Umm..I hate to break this to you...but if he was baiting you...you took it all the way.

oh shut the crap up nwv