NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a Liberal Democrat, The furthest of all the mainstream parties to the left in Britain. I agree that homosexuals should have greater legal rights as couples, but do not believe marriage is just right just yet (mostly because I believe equality of this sort is moving faster than society can take - basically in a nutshell we are moving too quickly forward and people as a whol do not want this at this present time.

I believe in higher taxation for the rich, more investment into public services, rehabilitation from criminals rather than turning a petty thief into a master criminal with long jail sentences. I agree with Sex Education at a younger age, so children can learn to be more responsible rather than villifying sex itself. I support the rights of The Palestinians and deplore the exacting of US Hegemony all around the World through neo-imperialist means, I despise the notion that Conservatives are 'fiscal' with the economy, mainly because of thier track record and I agree with equality in schooling and healthcare for all.

Yet I hate Transexuals - Its not so much that I hate them but what the represent, the desire to be different, not the desire to different that some people have by listening to different music or wearing different clothes (something that is harmless). But the desire to be different in the sense that they will recieve more attention for it and it will fulfill thier inadequacies in life.

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

All of us with an open mind and a degree of compassion wants to see people treated equally, but my borders of equality do not stretch up to people trying to, as stated before, fulfill thier inadquacies by changing thier gender. At the heart of it all, as I said before, it insults me.

It reminds me of a time when I posted on another board which I will not name an honest question. 'When I am walking past a group of Black Youths on the street when I am on my own I feel more scared than if they were White, Am I a racist?' Most of the people on the board posted (60%) that I was racist because I was generalizing, but they neglected to take into account that I recognise the reason for the rise in crime among black youths was poverty, and that simply sticking people in jail would not do anything about it - and that the proper response was more investment in education so the new generation would not have to be as poverty stricken as the prievous, and hence lower crime.

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong? Even though I am a Liberal in every other aspect?

Well.....?

No, you are not to be villified, but you are to be disagreed with by many of the rest of us.

Yet I hate Transexuals - Its not so much that I hate them but what the represent, the desire to be different, not the desire to different that some people have by listening to different music or wearing different clothes (something that is harmless). But the desire to be different in the sense that they will recieve more attention for it and it will fulfill thier inadequacies in life.

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong? Even though I am a Liberal in every other aspect?

Supporting evidence for the claim in bold?

Do you feel the way about other attention seekers (if we entertain your dubious claim for the moment)?

Why should anyone be villified? You're entitled to your opinion. I think it's all a moot point and everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone.

Well I guess nobodys perfect eh? :p

So you dont liek that they change theri appearance so that they get more attention? or what is really yoru problem with them because if that is it then I can come up with tons of examples of people who do this that has nothign to do with transgenders.

How is this insulting to you exactly?

Why does an extreeme urge to change your gender not mean that you should change your gender if you feel like it?

I think you are the one insulting the thousands of people who have chosen to live their life how they feel most comfortable. Your explanations as to why you feel this way are inadequate and don't explain anything. I think youa re merely afraid of something you don't understand.

I think they are seriously screwed up for multilating themselves like that, and need help. It is not normal for someone to do that, I don't care what anyone says. It's fucked up.

I think you are the one insulting the thousands of people who have chosen to live their life how they feel most comfortable. Your explanations as to why you feel this way are inadequate and don't explain anything. I think youa re merely afraid of something you don't understand.

What is there to understand about it?

That somebody changes thier gender due to a defect of the brain...?

Oh right. Really difficult explanation there.

I think they are seriously screwed up for multilating themselves like that, and need help. It is not normal for someone to do that, I don't care what anyone says. It's fucked up.

Finally, a voice that thinks laterally. What they are doing is wrong, no matter what age we live in.

What is there to understand about it?

That somebody changes thier gender due to a defect of the brain...?

Oh right. Really difficult explanation there.


So obviously you have it all figured out then.

But I still don't see an adequate explanation as to why you hate them and their need to feel comfortable in their lives, instead of bowing down to people like you who don't think that they should live a happy life or whatever your problem is. Still waiting...

Finally, a voice that thinks laterally. What they are doing is wrong, no matter what age we live in.

Important question, to me at least: Define the word 'wrong'.

Important question, to me at least: Define the word 'wrong'.

Something that defies 'Right', I.e. Something that in technical terms does not abide by 'Right' Terms.

If this attitude is as far left as it gets in Britain, then Britain needs some serious progressive reform.

That being said, the rest is just a matter of understanding Gender Identity Crisis and realizing what the learned medical community already realizes: That it's a very real condition and should be met with compassion, choices, and freedom.

Not a very compassionate "liberal", are you NWV?

Well.....?

Well.....?

See Post #4 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6760574&postcount=4).

Do you have a problem with people who receive plastic surgery?

Or people on birth-control?

Both of those screw with your body and hormones, just as sex changes do.

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong?

Yep. Why shouldn't people change their gender for whatever reason they want? Why should you care? And how liberal are you if you want to deny people the rights to their own bodies?

I think they are seriously screwed up for multilating themselves like that, and need help. It is not normal for someone to do that, I don't care what anyone says. It's fucked up.

Most men in America and all Jewish men get circumcised, surely that's mutilation of they're own body. Surely, by your logic, then it is wrong?

Uh, Nazi, before I read the rest of that tripe, how about this little *factoid.*

Most transgendered people pursue a life that I'm sure would kick your ass in ten minutes, go through all kinds of trauma, psychiatric and social labelling, economic disenfranchisement, often a label of mental illness...

To be *normal.*

Cause they want a life where they *don't* feel like a freak every morning before they open their eyes, so they can *live* *with a body that matches their brain as best as artifice can manage...*


A lot of the pain that drives people to go through all the *crap, pain, harassment, and humiliation, not to mention expense,* people put in front of trannies, ...actually comes from a desire to live a *normal life.*


It's not transsexuals' fault that some people would rather scream *freak.*

Cause you bet that transsexuals that survive this are tough, creative, smarter, and probably more empathetic than *you.*

Most men in America and all Jewish men get circumcised, surely that's mutilation of they're own body. Surely, by your logic, then it is wrong?

Never mind that. Some disgusting freak women get their ears pierced!!!!!!SHIFT1111

I couldn't care less about transgender people, if they want to have a sex change I'd let them, and I'm a conservative. Its not like its really affecting me or anything else that much.

When I first say the title I thought you were thinking of hermaphrodites. My mistake. However transsexuals are a weird lot. And trust me, I know weird.

Reading more, it's like...

Umm. Do you *hate* people who have plastic surgery?

Do you *hate* people who get liposuction?

Or do you *hate* the media presentation of transsexuals as someone 'trying to get attention,' (trust me, anyone that goes on a talk show is *trying to get attention,* even if it means national humiliation. This is not 'transsexuals,' it's the version of, and segment of transgendered people the media ropes in for such a circus cause it thinks you'll get riled up about it enough to keep watching. And they edit things for that purpose. Just like they do to anyone else. Duh? Pattern, here? )

No, transsexual people aren't doing this for the 'attention.' In fact, most go through lives of hiding, being ostracised, wishing it would go away, and listening to condemnation and a lot of bad jokes about people like themselves before they ever dare so much as wear a *skirt.*

The 'attention' transsexuals are supposed to get isn't good. The usual choices are violence and sexual exploitation.

If some get angry and loud, because of this, well, boo F'n hoo if you're uncomfortable.

If some got treated like this so much that they're easy prey for tabloids and daytime talk shows, well, you should know better than to think that's what *they* are.

You're reacting to media images. You don't know the *people.* You may as well use a blackfaced minstrel show to justify hating black people.

Or a bearbaiting arena to study ursid behaviour.

I really don't think changing your body so drastically is right, but it's a personal decision and it can't really hurt anyone else.

I really don't think changing your body so drastically is right, but it's a personal decision and it can't really hurt anyone else.
That is until they start looking for dates.

Well.....?Well.....?

See Post #4 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6760574&postcount=4).

bump ;)

I might mention, Ganoush, that transsexuals are pretty well-aware of the risks of 'looking for dates.'

At what point in a dating experience do the genitals of someone else, or former states thereof, become *your business?*

Maybe if people weren't so freaked out about 'not being gay,' they wouldn't think the remote possibility of finding someone was transsexual was such a mortal threat?

(Most trannies know you're not safe before you even start gaping at the cleavage, trust me. As I was telling the girl there, it's *dangerous.* )

The image of the sexually-agressive transwoman who's really a gay man in disguise is a *media-constructed nightmare,* not anything about reality.

That is until they start looking for dates.

Nobody gives their entire life story and enumerates everything they've ever done when casually dating. That's just stupid ... or do you think that you should sit down to dinner on your first date with someone and say, "I've had sex with <x amount> people, here are their names and phone numbers, here is my complete medical history, and I have brought a video tape of my mother speaking about me when I was a kid. What kind of salad dressing would you like?"

Now, if you're getting close to someone and you want to share certain intimacies, I believe it is better to be open and honest - about *everything*, not just whether or not you used to be a different gender. If the person you are with truly loves you and cares deeply about you, then they will shrug and say, "Neat."

Part of the honesty, however, is the acceptance of someone else's opinion of matters and if the person decides to break off the relationship because of something you are, then they have that right.

I am of the school of thought, however, that does not accept current gender standards. I believe that if a person feels in their soul that they are a woman, then they are a woman - no matter what plumbing they were born with.

Sometimes honesty early can save you heartbreak later. I actually had a girl break up with me after 4 months of a rather nice relationship when I told her that I'm Jewish. She had every right to do so, sure, and I wasn't about to try to convince her to stay simply because her attitude about the matter made me very glad I didn't end up marrying her!

That is until they start looking for dates.

sure, it would prolly feel odd at starters. But when you find out, you do have a choice to stay or leave. And if you have dated a woman that formerly was a man and you have a problem with this after you find out, isn't it really you who have issues?

From the arguments you have presented, it seems to me that you may actually feel more threatened by transgenders than insulted. If all they really wanted was attention, they would advertise their original gender, and you wouldn't have to worry about accidentally ending up in bed with an mtf. But, if on the other hand they actually consider themselves to have been born in the wrong body, and choose to try and rectify that through surgery, and then don't advertise it, your masculinity might be endangered. Well get over it. Show a little compassion.


I couldn't care less about transgender people, if they want to have a sex change I'd let them, and I'm a conservative. Its not like its really affecting me or anything else that much.

Will you marry me? :D

Frankly, people say, 'This was a man,' for simplicity and shock effect. Your average transsexual woman was probably harrassed and beaten up a lot on the very proposition that, though presenting as a 'man,' "You're not a real man."

Frankly, men are more hostile to the existence of transpeople because they fear that their own much-defended straightness is somehow at risk.

I mean, ...dude. Be straight, if you are. It doesn't have to be a *religion,* with anyone that threatens that idea of straightness as absolute and the only natural thing in existence... as a 'heretic' that must be destroyed lest they mislead the faithful from the fact that, Umm, so, you liked a transwoman, ...you didn't know she was trans, she'll tell you sooner or later, probably sometime before you get too emotionally-attached or have permission to stick your peepee anywhere.

You don't inspect the genitalia of someone just for a *date,* do you?

If there's something inherently not okay to you about a transwoman, hey, have a little faith, Your natural laws will stop you from seeing them as just a person with a life and personality and who might have thought you weren't a blockhead.

Right?

sure, it would prolly feel odd at starters. But when you find out, you do have a choice to stay or leave. And if you have dated a woman that formerly was a man and you have a problem with this after you find out, isn't it really you who have issues?
They’re the ones with the issue if they’re not happy staying with the gender they were born with. Then of course there is the whole deception things. It's almost like finding out that they were cheating.

That is until they start looking for dates.

So true, with the liberalisation of such things and the subsequent massive increase in the amount of people getting Sex Changes, you really don't know what you are getting yourself into. We had a programme over here in Britain called 'Big Brother' - containing a transgender who won it, she now claims she is 'looking for a boyfriend' - that is screwing about with common decency in my terms - God help the poor man who takes her out to Dinner not knowing the awful truth.

I think they are seriously screwed up for multilating themselves like that, and need help. It is not normal for someone to do that, I don't care what anyone says. It's fucked up.
*SMACK*
of course its fucked up. of COURSE its not normal.
for god's sake these poor souls DO mutilate themselves. do you think they CHOOSE to be this way?? do you think they would do it if it werent utterly necessary for them?? they are making a positive choice in an extremely fucked up life. its their only chance at feeling OK.

the question is should they have to lead a life of misery because YOU DONT LIKE IT?

its not like this is new. christine jorgensen got her operation in 1952. we survived that, i think we can allow these few people their one chance at happiness.

I for one have never had a hard time telling a transgender woman from a real woman. But thats just me.

Besides... if the transwoman is good lookig enough and has allt he right parts and you like her personality from the dates you have been on, then what is the problem?

Besides... if the transwoman is good lookig enough and has allt he right parts and you like her personality from the dates you have been on, then what is the problem?

Erm... Thats pushing it.

Alot of people like cross dressers cant help that they feel the urge to be something else. AND HAVE YOU EVER WORN A THONG?? THEY MAKE YOU FEEL SO SEXY!! Just kidding.

Erm... Thats pushing it.


give me a good reason why

I did however recently hear a story about some person that had a sex change and was married for years without the other person knowing which if that happened to me... well there would be blood... lots and lots of blood. Suits the guy for being to dumb to figure it out, that or kudos to the doctor for doing such a good job.

give me a good reason why

Ok, I'm going to be.... as uneloquent as I can be here.

Imagine you are fucking her/him, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 5 years ago, and a mental reflection of what him/her looked like pops into your head. Complete with stubble and no tits, and of course, a cock. Just imagine that mental reflection and then being ported back to reality seeing this 'woman' you are doing the job on. Wouldn't that be a real turn off?

I don't think there is anything wrong with "hating" transexuals, homosexuals, black, white, whatever.....

Its when you enforce your hatred, thats when you cross lines.

Democracy was dictated with freedom, and no one can deny your freedom to think. No matter how narrowminded an ideal, you have the right to think so.

Ok, I'm going to be.... as uneloquent as I can be here.

Imagine you are fucking her/him, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 5 years ago, and a mental reflection of what him/her looked like pops into your head. Complete with stubble and no tits, and of course, a cock. Just imagine that mental reflection and then being ported back to reality seeing this 'woman' you are doing the job on. Wouldn't that be a real turn off?


nope. I'm bisexual.

nope. I'm bisexual.

Well then you are a minority. Most people would consider that a turn off so you cant use your own sexuality as evidence to back up your case.

Well then you are a minority. Most people would consider that a turn off so you cant use your own sexuality as evidence to back up your case.

well then if you never knew what they looked like as a man, how can you imagine it? i can imagine my girlfriend with a inverted breasts and webbed feet but I'm not going to and that doesnt turn me off from her beautiful current state.

And if you are worried about that and you know she was a transwoman then just dont pursue the relationship. It's as simple as that.

I agree that homosexuals should have greater legal rights as couples, but do not believe marriage is just right just yet (mostly because I believe equality of this sort is moving faster than society can take - basically in a nutshell we are moving too quickly forward and people as a whole do not want this at this present time.

Yet I hate Transexuals - Its not so much that I hate them but what the represent, the desire to be different, not the desire to different that some people have by listening to different music or wearing different clothes (something that is harmless). But the desire to be different in the sense that they will recieve more attention for it and it will fulfill thier inadequacies in life.

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

Homosexuals deserve the legal right to marry. Anything less is discrimination. And I don't give a damn that most people don't want it. It doesn't concern most people, and I am not a fan of tyranny of the majority.

Do you honestly believe that people change their sex just to seek attention? Sex-change applicants must undergo extensive psychological testing. And how does it harm anyone again? Yes, this simple defect of the brain causes much misery, that can sometimes be amended by a sex-change operation.

If these people have successful sex-change operations, they have every right to "pass themselves off as women" - because that's what they are. They should not be denied the right to sex. I don't care if you have an insecurity about them. Are you thinking about hermaphrodites by any chance? It's not the same thing. Once again, I don't care that public opinion is against it. This is a human rights issue.

Here's a story. You disagree with the death penalty, right? When Germany outlawed capital punishment, it went against 74% of public opinion. At the time, only 26% of Germans were anti-death penalty. Now, only 26% of Germans are pro-death penalty! Is this not a good thing? You can force progress.

So in conclusion, I am teh Liberal king!

So true, with the liberalisation of such things and the subsequent massive increase in the amount of people getting Sex Changes, you really don't know what you are getting yourself into. We had a programme over here in Britain called 'Big Brother' - containing a transgender who won it, she now claims she is 'looking for a boyfriend' - that is screwing about with common decency in my terms - God help the poor man who takes her out to Dinner not knowing the awful truth.

Massive amounts of people? Do you have any stats here, or are you just proselytizing out of your ass?

Seriously, people like Kinsella Island there have the right idea. Speaking as a straight man - who gives a flying rats patootie WHY they did it. Anyone I'd want to date would be cool enough to tell me before things got intimate that they used to be a man. And if I'm not OK with that, if I can't handle it, that's my issue. They can do whatever they want with their bodies. They make their own decisions, I'll make mine.

Your own choice, my own choice. Thats how you break it down.

I mean, I am one of the single most Liberal People on these boards - yet when it comes to this issue the people (trannies) instinctively sicken me, its not a long debate that led me to this conclusion, just the fact they are women now but were men once before. Sick, disgusting and wrong.

And no, Homos should not be given the right to marry just yet. Forcing change ahead of society's wishes is wrong in my book, its like your bones growing faster than your muscles. But when the time is right it should be done. Can't you ultra liberals just accept that most of society DOES NOT WANT IT JUST YET? But rest assured, when Public Opinion changes, and trust me, it will, I would be the first to stand up and say 'Let these people marry!'

I think the real issue is that you would be sleeping with a women that used to be a man and you are uncomfortable realising that sexuality may be more fluid then you believe. That would be a schocking feeling because then you would feel like you were unwittingly gay because they used to be a man. That makes you uncomfortable. You can have any, ANY opinion you want it is just when you step on others feelings that it becomes wrong. Even, if you are horribly uncomfortable. I bet they are ridiculously more uncomfortable then you. I do believe they should be up front and honest. We have all ready seen the medical community, psych community come out and say that they really in their head are men or women, it is a very small difference in genetics between women and men. They learned this from hermaphrodites, after chosing a gender for them and removing one of the genitals, they found out that no matter what they did. They could not socialize them to be either man or women. They guessed wrong and the children were having to have operations to turn themselves back and going through a lot of pain. In this case they were just born with the wrong body part instead of both. I think the issue is more you have never believed yourself to be anything more then a macho, hetero man. This would turn your whole system upside down. Afraid to be gay even though by psych standards you are actually with a women. I am a lesbian and personally also have a problem dating a transgender women but it is my personal problem. I am just scared after coming out and finally being myself that it would then make me hetero now and completely the opposite of what I thought. That makes it hard to be taken serious then right? I am afraid of the world though and judgement. That is my problem, not theirs.

We had a programme over here in Britain called 'Big Brother' - containing a transgender who won it, she now claims she is 'looking for a boyfriend' - that is screwing about with common decency in my terms - God help the poor man who takes her out to Dinner not knowing the awful truth.
I didn't find Nadia attractive, but I so strongly disagree with your proposition that love and sex should be unavailible to her. How can you be so devoid of compassion? Besides, now that she is famously a transsexual, how would her boyfriend not know about it?

BTW, I don't consider you to be one of the most liberal people on these boards. Hating America doesn't constitute liberalism, in fact I believe that hatred is the antithesis of liberalism, as is your EU jingoism. You are just a jingoist in socialist's clothing, and you think it makes you a liberal.

You've said a lot about male to female transgenders, but not what you think of female to male transgenders. Is this solely because they don't personnaly threaten to topple your narrow view of your own sexuality?

Your own choice, my own choice. Thats how you break it down.

I mean, I am one of the single most Liberal People on these boards - yet when it comes to this issue the people (trannies) instinctively sicken me, its not a long debate that led me to this conclusion, just the fact they are women now but were men once before. Sick, disgusting and wrong.

And no, Homos should not be given the right to marry just yet. Forcing change ahead of society's wishes is wrong in my book, its like your bones growing faster than your muscles. But when the time is right it should be done. Can't you ultra liberals just accept that most of society DOES NOT WANT IT JUST YET? But rest assured, when Public Opinion changes, and trust me, it will, I would be the first to stand up and say 'Let these people marry!'

Oh yes, just like how we delayed Black people from being full citizens. It gave plenty of time for the KKK to slaughter entire villages of them. Yup if society thinks black people should remain "slaves" just without that term, its completely OK. Cause when white people start yelling for equality for black people...then only will it be considered right.

(I agree with you on transexuals...but I wouldn't use my opinion as a way to deprive them of anything or accuse them of being "wrong")

BTW, I don't consider you to be one of the most liberal people on these boards. Hating America doesn't constitute liberalism, in fact I believe that hatred is the antithesis of liberalism, as is your EU jingoism. You are just a jingoist in socialist's clothing, and you think it makes you a liberal.

Hating America?

Oh right the new buzz words for not agreeing with enforcement of a hegemonic stance all over the World which is a detriment to tens of millions of people that are unfortunate enough to live under one of The US' propped up dictatorships. Or the use of Israel to enforce fear into Arabic states?

You my friend, are a typical American 'liberal'. You partially agree that poor people should not be left to rot, and partially agree with such atrocities as the illegal War on Vietnam. You are not a Liberal, you do not agree with a welfare state or the equalizing of opportunities under your ridiculously free market and most of all? You still agree with Hegemonic, provokative US Foreign Policy. In any European Country? You would be a Conservative, because the US is so fiercely Patriotic.

You've said a lot about male to female transgenders, but not what you think of female to male transgenders. Is this solely because they don't personnaly threaten to topple your narrow view of your own sexuality?

Oh yes, this is all a hidden message in my subconscious about a hidden past I had concerning me being a highwayman.

Your own choice, my own choice. Thats how you break it down.

I mean, I am one of the single most Liberal People on these boards - yet when it comes to this issue the people (trannies) instinctively sicken me, its not a long debate that led me to this conclusion, just the fact they are women now but were men once before. Sick, disgusting and wrong.

And no, Homos should not be given the right to marry just yet. Forcing change ahead of society's wishes is wrong in my book, its like your bones growing faster than your muscles. But when the time is right it should be done. Can't you ultra liberals just accept that most of society DOES NOT WANT IT JUST YET? But rest assured, when Public Opinion changes, and trust me, it will, I would be the first to stand up and say 'Let these people marry!'

General Statement, not necessarily to the quote

Remember the sixties, womens rights, minority rights, it went out of control and it progressed right away. We don't want them to say we are o.k. They can have any opinion they want. We just want to be protected human beings in a country that professes freedom in so many ways. We just don't want to have to hide anymore. We just want legal protection. I don't want anyone to agree that doesn't believe it. Just let me put my name on a house with my partner. Call it a legal union. Call it an expressed partnership. We just want to be safe. Not convert your kids or shut down your churches. I know it isn't going to happen over night. I know it may not happen for another ten years. I'm not dellusional. I just wanted to express that most of us just want to enjoy our time here on earth. Judged by God not humans. Maybe it is genetic, maybe that is why God all ready knows the plan, he made us this way. I don't know the answers but I would just hope you would at least let me love and live my life here on earth. Don't we always wonder why Arab countries have to come and try and kill us? We don't mean them any harm. Same thing here, I don't understand why they have to make my life misserable because of their beliefs. You don't have to be my friend. Just let me lead my life with out trying to adopt laws based on your beliefs. (Yes I know there are things going on in the Arab countries that make them hate us, such as the Israel thing and everything is more complicated..I am talking about the average american citizen)

Do you have a problem with people who receive plastic surgery?

Or people on birth-control?

Both of those screw with your body and hormones, just as sex changes do.

It's a matter of how far you take it. Changing your sex...is fucking far.

It is very far but how deeply must you believe it is the right thing to do to go through that. I think they are much more sane then the person who has plastic surgery because they think their boobs are to small. Birth control has practical applications.

I think they are much more sane then the person who has plastic surgery

Nope, they have a defect of the brain. Gals that just want bigger breasts are perfectionists, or have incredibly small breasts in which case it is justified for the ensuing enjoyment of the male populace.

Nope, they have a defect of the brain. Gals that just want bigger breasts are perfectionists, or have incredibly small breasts in which case it is justified for the ensuing enjoyment of the male populace.


No, they have a defect in genetics. I think you are kind of just messing around now because of the last comment. We could argue about this all day but why can't we just let them be. I all ready told you I couldn't be with someone transsexual but because it would confuse me. My issue not theirs.

An it harm none, do as ye will ;)

Go trannies! :p

(Note: Honestly, I've never had the problem of telling them apart either...I guess either a) some doctors such, b) some doctors ROCK, or c) both :p)

Hating America?

Oh right the new buzz words for not agreeing with enforcement of a hegemonic stance all over the World which is a detriment to tens of millions of people that are unfortunate enough to live under one of The US' propped up dictatorships. Or the use of Israel to enforce fear into Arabic states?

You my friend, are a typical American 'liberal'. You partially agree that poor people should not be left to rot, and partially agree with such atrocities as the illegal War on Vietnam. You are not a Liberal, you do not agree with a welfare state or the equalizing of opportunities under your ridiculously free market and most of all? You still agree with Hegemonic, provokative US Foreign Policy. In any European Country? You would be a Conservative, because the US is so fiercely Patriotic.
Yes, you frequently make threads like "Europe vs. America" - and you're serious - you even turn the economy into a jingoistic issue! You declared that the al-Qaeda attack on the Pentagon on 11th September 2001 was somehow legitimate. (Most people, including those on the hijacked plane were innocent civilians.) That said, does it mean that I agree with US foreign policy? NO! But I also disagree with the mass terrorism it mirrors.

Firstly, I'm not American. I live in Dublin, Ireland, across the water from you. I was born here. I don't know how you have ever ascertained that I am anti-welfare or pro-Vietnam war. I agree with the welfare state and equalising of opportunities. My model ideal for a country is probably either Sweden or Denmark (yes, I have been to both countries). I also believe in universal rights. The Vietnam war was the least justifiable war America ever fought, IMO.

In any European country? I'll try my own: I'm liberal. I can't think of any European countries where I would be considered conservative.

You are fiercely patriotic too, except for you it's the EU. Doesn't make a difference. EU jingoism and American jingoism are both the same evil.

You are fiercely patriotic too, except for you it's the EU. Doesn't make a difference. EU jingoism and American jingoism are both the same evil.
EU Patriotism for me revolves around the creation of a single unit, with a single socialist voice to oppose American Imperialism. This is not the same patriotism that induces mass riots around mosques, or people baying for the revenge blood of 'dune coons'. It is a patriotism derived around the love of Europe itself (I do not consider Turkey to be European), all the different countries on the continent who want to further the progression of the EU into the single voice I envision will happen some day. Respect of other nations besides your own, which is what you said when you mentioned 'EU Patriotism' is not the nationalism that is so commonly equated with America and thus it would be folly to draw parralels between the two.

And yes, I did feel the attack upon the Pentagon was justified, a) Because civilian deaths in such an attack can be considered the same 'collateral damage' categorisation that the American Military like to use when they murder civilians, and b) it was a reasonable response to provokative, double standards and hegemonic American Foreign Policy that evokes hatred in the Arabic World.

EU Patriotism for me revolves around the creation of a single unit, with a single socialist voice to oppose American Imperialism. This is not the same patriotism that induces mass riots around mosques, or people baying for the revenge blood of 'dune coons'. It is a patriotism derived around the love of Europe itself (I do not consider Turkey to be European), all the different countries on the continent who want to further the progression of the EU into the single voice I envision will happen some day. Respect of other nations besides your own, which is what you said when you mentioned 'EU Patriotism' is not the nationalism that is so commonly equated with America and thus it would be folly to draw parralels between the two.

And yes, I did feel the attack upon the Pentagon was justified, a) Because civilian deaths in such an attack can be considered the same 'collateral damage' categorisation that the American Military like to use when they murder civilians, and b) it was a reasonable response to provokative, double standards and hegemonic American Foreign Policy that evokes hatred in the Arabic World.
OK, so you want to define the EU as opposing America. You want to build up an EU that is great, strong, unified and (if opposing America) self-sufficient. Sounds pretty nationalistic to me.

Regarding 9/11
a) So because the US military uses the term to justify mass murder, it means anyone can? I wish we could disallow "collateral damage" to be used as an excuse, but you are only justifying its use.
b) I don't think it was reasonable response (murder is murder is murder no matter who is doing it), but I agree with your statements about US foreign policy.

b) I don't think it was reasonable response (murder is murder is murder no matter who is doing it)

Neither does anyone. But are we really to believe the reason they do it is because they 'hate freedom' and 'our way of life'? In fact I think I will email Chomsky about that one - he knows all.

And I would say that the building up of an EU on socialist morals and opposing enforcing of US Hegemony and Britains status as a 'Junior Partner', is not that nationalistic, as is the notion that it is a collection of different cultures, languages and nations. Thats hardly nationalistic.

So, ... let's get this straight...

You guys are basically ignoring all the humanistic arguments about how transsexuals are *people* with *lives* and all that, and because, as 'liberal' as Nazi claims to be, despite still calling gays 'homos,'

...that you're basically justifying putting transsexuals whom you admit have a brain defect that makes their birth morphology and social gender intolerable.... through untold torture...


...cause you're inarticulately grossed-out...


...By the European Union?


Pray, please read back a bit.


I guarantee you, from your writing styles, by the way, that I was pulling battered transsexuals out of violent situations while you were still trying to learn to chew with your mouth closed.


Reality check, please? Transsexuals aren't an interesting phenomenon for computer geeks, they're *people,* dammit.

People.

Listen to *them,* why don't you,
Dwellers in Momma's Basement.
Readers of 'Chicks With D***s porn...

Yeah, I know where these indignant ideas come from.

Come on, kids, if you wanna bash liberals, at least meet some of the poor people your waste is supposed to 'trickle down' to.

Sheesh.

I mean, come *on,* folks, these are *peoples' lives* you're talking about.

Real pain and real confusion of real people and you *really think, for some reason,* you have some kind of *right* to tell them *your hangups* and *your theories* are somehow more important than what they go to bed with and wake up with and walk around with *every day?*



If anything's *sick* around this, it's *that.*


And that's what that is.

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong?

I don't believe anyone necessarily deserves to be "villified" simply for their opinions. But what you need to understand is, from where I'm sitting, at least, you have just engaged in an act of villification, yourself.

I am friends with several transgendered people, and can assure you that the "desire to be different" you state is simply NOT PRESENT in them. In fact, one of them (born male) feels so uncomfortable from the stares and reactions she gets when wearing female clothing that she rarely does it, despite the fact that she feels more "like herself" when wearing them.

You have to understand, she doesn't see herself as WANTING to attract attention. She feels like a woman and, logically, wants to be able to dress like a woman. When she is in an environment where she has to wear specifically masculine clothes- such as a suit- she feels EXTREMELY uncomfortable. To her, wearing male clothes feels just as strange and "unnatural" as it would be for you to have to wear a skirt.

I am curious as to whether you actually know any trans people, since, in my experience, being different is the last thing they want- they are, like gays, like lesbians, ALREADY DIFFERENT.

This isn't about wanting attention or "fulfilling inadequacies". It's about wanting to be yourself. My trans friend doesn't want to be stared at or identified as different. She WANTS to feel like every other girl, wearing feminine clothes. But she can't, because of the way she looks.

In short, what she wants- is to be a "normal girl". Not a guy wearing a dress. Sadly, unless she opts for surgery, that will be the best she will ever be able to do, the closest she will be able to come to feeling "like herself".


...Needless to say, I find your "alternative theory" more than a little insulting. But I'm not going to villify you for it.

Hey, if you can't villify someone calling themselves a Nazi Weaponized Virus, calling gays homos and inciting self-professed hatred about the transgendered, whom he admits have a birth defect,

...Well, honestly, who *can* you villify?

:)

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong? Even though I am a Liberal in every other aspect?
What you believe in is your right as a human being, just as the person who is transgendered has rights. I say live and let live.

There's also this big question of this.


I don't *care* if you believe 'transsexuality is wrong.'

You may as well say, "I believe cancer or having brown eyes is wrong."



It's not strictly 'genetic' (which people mistake for 'natural, ' these days, being ignorant,) but it's *innate.*

Just like having brown eyes.

Which some people who happenned to call themselves Nazi, too, also said indicated some flaw in character that might undermine a state which would otherwise be ideal (since it's so hard to blame the imperrialists actually responsible for killing lots of folks and *still* screwing up the economy) ...except for those queers and Jews and minorities, who are so much easier to blame cause most people would rather blame the unknown for their troubles then they would have the *guts* to blame their own stupidity, gullibility, cowardice, and inattentiveness, for a given state of affairs.

Trust me, sport, if you woke up with the wrong genitals tomorrow, it might take you a while to catch up with politics again.


But.... ten or twenty years of the experience might teach you how your sophomoric ideas of how life works don't really *apply* to all these people you like to judge and call lower than yourself...

And if you studied higher primate behaviour before they all go extinct, you might end up both wiser and more humble.


Wouldn't that suck. You couldn't have someone to look down on, just you needed to, just cause the jocks gave you a swirlie, just cause you're not such an alpha male yourself, are you?

Heh.

Am I to be villified simply because I believe Transexuality is wrong? Even though I am a Liberal in every other aspect?

Oh get over it. You're being villified because you posted an intentionally baiting topic on a board with a reputation for harshness and a fair amount of people you knew it would piss off and you did it in a post that was mostly you patting yourself on the back for how "liberal" you are. Then, almost as an afterthought, you whip out the "it insults me" justification and give no rationale as to why something that doesn't even affect you should be a personal affront. It's like a masochist asking a sadist to spank them and then asking them why they did it. If you don't want to be attacked for posting inflammitory rhetoric, try posting on PeopleWhoThinkExactlyLikeIDo.com.

The thing that truly confuses me is why you put so much thought into it. You use very harsh words to condemn it, but why are you so concerned about it that you have to despise people you'll never know or even meet? What's the point in dumping all this hatred into nameless, faceless people who are dealing with their own unique situations that are just as important and valid as your own? Perhaps instead of spending so much time "hating" and "despising" transsexuals and all they stand for you would be better off just walking away from the issue and starting a neighborhood revitalization project or an after school mentoring program or something. It's a much more constructive way to spend your time.

Not liking something is one thing. I don't particularly like transsexuals because I feel somehow that they inherantly threaten basic concepts of sexual identity, but then again, I don't hate them and realize that if it's bad for me when I'm not a transsexual, it must be exponentially worse for them to have to deal with this in the first person.

Well.....?Well.....?

See Post #4.
bump ;)
Cough.

Imagine you are fucking her/him, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 5 years ago, and a mental reflection of what him/her looked like pops into your head. Complete with stubble and no tits, and of course, a cock. Just imagine that mental reflection and then being ported back to reality seeing this 'woman' you are doing the job on. Wouldn't that be a real turn off?


When you're having sex with a woman who was born a woman, does your mind port back to an image of what she looked like at, say, 10 years old and get turned off?

Hint: If your mind wanders while you're making love to your woman, then who the woman was 5, 10, or 20 years ago should be the least of your concerns.

Ok, I'm going to be.... as uneloquent as I can be here.

Imagine you are fucking her/him, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 5 years ago, and a mental reflection of what him/her looked like pops into your head. Complete with stubble and no tits, and of course, a cock. Just imagine that mental reflection and then being ported back to reality seeing this 'woman' you are doing the job on. Wouldn't that be a real turn off?


Imagine you are fucking an 18 year old woman, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 13 years ago, and a mental imafe of what she looked like then pops into your head...

We must fight the EVIL TYRANNY OF FASCIST TIME ITSELF!!!!!SHIFT11111

When you're having sex with a woman who was born a woman, does your mind port back to an image of what she looked like at, say, 10 years old and get turned off?

Hint: If your mind wanders while you're making love to your woman, then who the woman was 5, 10, or 20 years ago should be the least of your concerns.


Imagine you are fucking an 18 year old woman, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 13 years ago, and a mental imafe of what she looked like then pops into your head...

We must fight the EVIL TYRANNY OF FASCIST TIME ITSELF!!!!!SHIFT11111

Ooohhh... that was spooky....

Without treatment, 50% of transsexuals commit suicide before the age of 30. That more or less settles the issue for me. It's only 1 in 100,000, give or take.

Anyway, as a bisexual, I don't care what's down there- any combination has many possibilities.

Imagine you are fucking an 18 year old woman, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 13 years ago, and a mental imafe of what she looked like then pops into your head...

We must fight the EVIL TYRANNY OF FASCIST TIME ITSELF!!!!!SHIFT11111

And imagine fucking a nice 60 kilo woman, and then your mind popping back to several years before, when she was 160! Oh the horror!
We must ban weight-loss immediately!

We must ban weight-loss immediately!

We must ban your judgemental objectification of women and their supposed perfect weights immediately!

We must ban your judgemental objectification of women and their supposed perfect weights immediately!

Not before I ban you!!CTRL1

Not before I ban you!!CTRL1

I must travel back in time and ban your grandfather!!!!CTRL-ALT-DEL111

I must travel back in time and ban your grandfather!!!!CTRL-ALT-DEL111

*bans timetravel*

Oh, btw, Homocracy, the number of transsexuals in the population is *most conservatively* placed at 1 in 26,000.

I've seen figures based on the number of people who have actually *completed* surgery that put the figure at more like 1 in 3000.

That's just based on MtFs, in the system.

Gay men aren't traditionally terribly friendly to actual transsexuals, either, mostly cause they're invested in the idea that if being gay doesn't make you less of a man, (very true) that transsexuals are obviously men who can't accept being gay (very stupid.)

The Stonewall riots that started the gay rights movement, actually weren't started by 'gays and drag queens,' they were actually started by a transsexual woman who led the charge, lived as a woman her whole life, and was erased by the gay movement when gays started getting more mainstream and.... things got politically complicated, let's say.

It's all on record.

The thing is, this is one of those phenomena that, before the Internet and real information being available, that one in four-to-twenty-six thousand never knew about. With odds like that, alone is alone is alone until you end up turning tricks, ...in actuality, odds are there's a few transsexuals, acknowledged or not, in any given town, there's a certain number at any given college, acknowledged or not...

In my *lifetime* people thought female-to-male trannies were very rare.
Actually, I was engaged to one, some years ago. Now, people know the figures are different.

But just remember, behind every one of those figures, there's a person, with dreams, and hopes and heart, and personality, and that brilliance we vallue when we say human life is sacred.

There's a lot of folks out there who want to say, "This is wrong, this is F'ed up, this is unnatural, this is blah and blah and blah."

Whatever these kids think of their brains, I don't see no Utopia yet.

Whatever time you spend being freaked out about trannies existing, you might want to spend thinking a bit about how many major metropolitan areas and how much cropland is going to be underwater if we don't actually have the 'stones' to face up to that 'Greenhouse Effect' they been talking about since *I* was a kid and politicians think they're heroes for slowing the *rate of growth of our death by 10 percent,*

You know, things like that.

I know you're defending American ideals against such subversion as free speech, dissent, science, and other people living and worshipping as they will with the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and all...

But, maybe you could lay off on the queers and look at the actual *science,* and all.


That is, unless you're *really* trying to end the world so Jesus will come back.

In that case, when you're done playing with your bombs and monotheist governments, well, just leave something for us 'meek' to inherit.

The meek thing only lasts so long.

Maybe instead of condescending to keep your disgust about the natural conditions and feelings of people, you could maybe, actually see that you're probably not getting into their undies anyway, and there's some real problems to solve out here.

I dunno... Just a thought, there.

You've said a lot about male to female transgenders, but not what you think of female to male transgenders. Is this solely because they don't personnaly threaten to topple your narrow view of your own sexuality?


Oh yes, this is all a hidden message in my subconscious about a hidden past I had concerning me being a highwayman.

That is not what I asked. Let me rephrase it, in case you were confused or I inadvertantly led you to believe sarcasm was the appropriate response.

Ahem, what do you think of female to male transgenders, and have you avoided commenting on them up to this point because you aren't worried about accidentally ending up in bed with one of them?

They’re the ones with the issue if they’re not happy staying with the gender they were born with. Then of course there is the whole deception things. It's almost like finding out that they were cheating.


Well, if they have gotten the full operation etc I find it very likely that they are happy and then they have no issue with it.

Deception? Do you tell every little dark secret you have about yourself on the first date?

Well, if you have a problem that they had another sex earlier but changed it to become happy and they are now, then that is your problem, none elses.

Ok, I'm going to be.... as uneloquent as I can be here.

Imagine you are fucking her/him, and then imagine your mind ports back to say... 5 years ago, and a mental reflection of what him/her looked like pops into your head. Complete with stubble and no tits, and of course, a cock. Just imagine that mental reflection and then being ported back to reality seeing this 'woman' you are doing the job on. Wouldn't that be a real turn off?

Maybe, but what does thjat really got to do with anything? And besides, why doesn this make the person who have changed thier sex the bad person? After all, it's you that have this problem, and it's none elses problem but yours.

Oh, and there are alot of "turnoff"-thoughts that could cross your mind.

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

If you found yourself in bed with one, that would mean you were sexually attracted to them.
At that point, what difference would it make?

Ahem, what do you think of female to male transgenders, and have you avoided commenting on them up to this point because you aren't worried about accidentally ending up in bed with one of them?

Just as bad in my book.

In response to the comments the guy made about the gays abandoning the transexuals as they became more mainstream - Why shouldn't have they? At least gays have a degree of normality in thier lives and its understandable that as a minority they don't also want to be categorised under the same group as disgusting people like transexuals.

The whole thing's disgusting. Too bad things aren't like they were a couple hundred years ago; you'd be hanged for that sorta thing! :D

The whole thing's disgusting. Too bad things aren't like they were a couple hundred years ago; you'd be hanged for that sorta thing! :D

Hehe

At least gays have a degree of normality in thier lives and its understandable that as a minority they don't also want to be categorised under the same group as disgusting people like transexuals.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Degree of normality? How are trans people devoid of "a degree of normality"? My friends all seem to do pretty much the same activities I do. (I don't consider myself "normal", but then again, I think it's a bullshit term anyway.)

And you still haven't really explained why you feel transgendered folks are "disgusting"- aside from the fact that you don't want to have sex with one. (I'm assuming you don't want to have sex with any men, right? Does that make all of us disgusting?)

Is it because some undergo surgery? So do plenty of other people. Are all of them disgusting?

Is it because of their clothes? There are plenty of weirder clothes out there- biker, Goth, or Saudi Arabian clothes, for instance. Are those other folks "disgusting"? Is it because they wear clothes of the opposite sex? (Never seen a woman wear pants? Or a Scot in a kilt?)

There seems to be something very specific about trans people that just sets you off, and I'd be very interested to find out what it is.

No, Saudi Arabian clothes are cool. I am going to get a jalabiya one of these days - it makes you look like an oil baron.

I find it strange and upsetting to my timetable like normal life that there are some people who wish to upset the laws of neutrality and go ahead with operations that will damage them and thier families. Its wrong, they should not be given the same legal rights as the gender they choose to be and I dont believe they are becoming any more of a woman or man by what they choose to do.

It's because fundamentally for all of them they have underlying problems that have caused them to act out in this way, for who knows how many reasons. They need help, that's what the need.

It's because fundamentally for all of them they have underlying problems that have caused them to act out in this way, for who knows how many reasons. They need help, that's what the need.

Exactly, its a cry for attention froma desire to be different. And not just different by wearing different clothes. Different by changing your whole god damn gender!

Exactly, its a cry for attention froma desire to be different. And not just different by wearing different clothes. Different by changing your whole god damn gender!

Which FREAKS PEOPLE OUT!

Which FREAKS PEOPLE OUT!

I reserve the right not to be freaked out!!!

I reserve the right not to be freaked out!!!

If that's your bag man,
to each his own
to each his own...

or maybe they're all just crazy sons o bitches!

I find it strange and upsetting to my timetable like normal life that there are some people who wish to upset the laws of neutrality

Why? It has absolutely NO impact on you.

and go ahead with operations that will damage them and thier families.

How the hell do you know? Who are you to judge whether it's the right thing for millions of people and their families? You don't know their situations.

Its wrong

Why?

they should not be given the same legal rights as the gender they choose to be

What on earth are you talking about? What legal rights? I wasn't aware that you got different rights depending on your sex.

and I dont believe they are becoming any more of a woman or man by what they choose to do.

My response to this is similar to my thoughts on people who are opposed to gay marriage:

"So don't get one."

Exactly, its a cry for attention froma desire to be different.

What are you basing this assumption/opinion ON? Your "intuition"? Do you KNOW any trans people? Have you ever met any?

How can you pretend to know their motivations?

So there's your response, now go away. =D

Why? It has absolutely NO impact on you.

It does when you see them, it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.


How the hell do you know? Who are you to judge whether it's the right thing for millions of people and their families? You don't know their situations.

Oh yes I do, it all follows a basic pattern


Why?

Because its wrong, it makes me sick and its a blemish upon nature


What on earth are you talking about? What legal rights? I wasn't aware that you got different rights depending on your sex.

You do in Britain


My response to this is similar to my thoughts on people who are opposed to gay marriage:

"So don't get one."

They scare me.

It does when you see them, it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.


Oh yes I do, it all follows a basic pattern


Because its wrong, it makes me sick and its a blemish upon nature


You do in Britain


They scare me.


You dont have the right to not be offended.

You dont have the right to not be sick to your stomach.

I also contend that not only is this "pattern" all in your head, that its also merely a figment of your imagination.

So he has to be sick and offended?

You dont have the right to not be offended.

Its also the fact that they insult nature itself.

It does when you see them, it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

So you believe everyone else should focus their lives around what makes YOU comfortable?

Oh yes I do, it all follows a basic pattern

And you're knowledgable of this pattern... how?

Because its wrong, it makes me sick and its a blemish upon nature

Who cares? The same thing was- and is- said about miscegenation and gay people.

Also, how is it a "blemish on nature"? Explain that, if you don't mind.

You do in Britain

How? Explain.

They scare me.

So what?

Its also the fact that they insult nature itself.


That is only7 100% your opinion.

Nature doesnt conform to your idea of normalcy.

Its also the fact that they insult nature itself.

What the hell does that EVEN MEAN? How do you "insult nature"? When you say "insult nature", I picture someone taking a shit on a zebra.

What you say about transexuals is what I say about homosexuals (but of course, you were treated much nicer for your comments).

I still don't like what transexuals do to their bodies, and neither do I like people who have cosmetic plastic surgery. I don't believe in "Gender Identity" as a disorder which can't be cured by PSYCHOLOGY rather than surgery. But at least transsexuals don't behave like a bunch of militant, spoilt little sex-crazed brats. That's why I'm more leniant with them than with homosexuals.

So you believe everyone else should focus their lives around what makes YOU comfortable?



And you're knowledgable of this pattern... how?



Who cares? The same thing was- and is- said about miscegenation and gay people.

Also, how is it a "blemish on nature"? Explain that, if you don't mind.



How? Explain.



So what?

1) Yes

2) Its quite obvious someones family would not want him/her to destroy himself/herself

3) True, but they have a degree of normality. Transexuals are abnormal to the full.

4) Because they are playing God with gender.

5) For example, rights in a divorce settlement.

What you say about transexuals is what I say about homosexuals (but of course, you were treated much nicer for your comments).

I still don't like what transexuals do to their bodies, and neither do I like people who have cosmetic plastic surgery. I don't believe in "Gender Identity" as a disorder which can't be cured by PSYCHOLOGY rather than surgery. But at least transsexuals don't behave like a bunch of militant, spoilt little sex-crazed brats. That's why I'm more leniant with them than with homosexuals.


Yes.

Thats nice.
Dont you have a pair of jack-boots to wear?

Nature is NATURE people they aren't NATURAL surgery is not NATURAL GAY SEX is not NATURAL you don't see half of the men with vaginas and half with penises and you can hardly contend that the ass works just as well, because... well go find out yourself and THEN tell me if you think it was NATURAL! It's not in mankinds nature and instint to change your gender/wear the opposite sexes clothing/etc. And don't say it's because of society, ultimately society evolved around it's NATURE!

1) Yes

2) Its quite obvious someones family would not want him/her to destroy himself/herself

3) True, but they have a degree of normality. Transexuals are abnormal to the full.

4) Because they are playing God with gender.

5) For example, rights in a divorce settlement.



1. You cannot presume to know the minds of anyone else, let alone someone's entire family.
Therefore, your arguement is flawed.

2. "Normal" is perception. What is normal to you, may not be normal to me and vice versa.

3. There is no God, and what the hell is it to you, what anyone else does with thier bodies?

1) Yes

2) Its quite obvious someones family would not want him/her to destroy himself/herself

3) True, but they have a degree of normality. Transexuals are abnormal to the full.

4) Because they are playing God with gender.

5) For example, rights in a divorce settlement.

1- Bullshit. Who the fuck made you God? (Or PM, to be more precise.) Just because something offends you doesn't mean you get to have it removed. I'm sorry, you're just not that important.

2- Oversimplistic. Some families certainly would be against surgery or cross-dressing. But many others would likely want their child to do whatever makes them happy, and support them in their decision. Also, what do you mean by "destroy"? Who are they destroying?

3- "Normality" is in the eye of the beholder. What makes a transgendered person "abnormal to the full"?

4- And? Scientists "play God" all the time. Any kind of surgery is playing God. Genetically enginering food is "playing God". Why is it only THIS that makes you indignant on God's behalf?

5- Again, I don't see how what someone else gets in THEIR divorce settlement affects YOU in the slightest.

1. You cannot presume to know the minds of anyone else, let alone someone's entire family.
Therefore, your arguement is flawed.

2. "Normal" is perception. What is normal to you, may not be normal to me and vice versa.

3. There is no God, and what the hell is it to you, what anyone else does with thier bodies?

1) Its pretty easy to realise they feel insufficient being whatever gender they are to change.

2) Normal is what is 'right' and something that doesn't go up against the grain

3) I believe in a God - and I am sick and tired of everyone assuming Christians to be exactly like George W. Bush.

Homosexuals could be argued to be scientifically created to cut down on over-population.

Transexuals, however, are most likely just a birth defect.

Transexuals should not try to conceal their unique sexuality. Period.

1) Its pretty easy to realise they feel insufficient being whatever gender they are to change.

2) Normal is what is 'right' and something that doesn't go up against the grain

3) I believe in a God - and I am sick and tired of everyone assuming Christians to be exactly like George W. Bush.

Who made you sole arbitrator of "the grain"?
No one.

Who made you sole arbitrator of "the grain"?
No one.

Basic decency dictates what runs up against the grain, not me.

and another thing....

Just like most people who are gay, and eventually reveal themselves to thier families....most of these people will support thier loved one, no matter what choices they make.

and another thing....

Just like most people who are gay, and eventually reveal themselves to thier families....most of these people will support thier loved one, no matter what choices they make.

No, being gay is generally accepted because most people do not percieve it as abnormal anymore. Whereas being a transgender is entirely different and wrong.

Basic decency dictates what runs up against the grain, not me.


What part of this are you having difficulty with?

"Basic decency" is IN YOUR MIND.

Your view of what is decent may be different than everyone elses....

Therefore...what you consider "decent" is worth a pound of pig shit.

No, being gay is generally accepted because most people do not percieve it as abnormal anymore. Whereas being a transgender is entirely different and wrong.


see the above post.

see the above post.

I concede the argument and will go and eat some chocolate spread sandwiches.





NOT!

Nature is NATURE people

And in nature birds regurgitate food for their children, and Praying Mantises eat their young. Should we use THESE behaviors as standards for humans, too?

they aren't NATURAL surgery is not NATURAL

Got it. So should we blow up all the hospitals? Shoot doctors? I guess we shouldn't have houses or wear clothes or read books, either. You don't see any wolves going around in suits reading TIME magazine, after all.

GAY SEX is not NATURAL

Says who? Here's a partial list of some animals that engage in homosexual or bisexual behavior:

-Penguins
-Apes
-Mountain Gorillas
-Bonobo Monkeys
-Bighorn rams
- Geese
-Dolphins
-Swans
-Killer Whales

you don't see half of the men with vaginas and half with penises

What the fuck are you talking about?

and you can hardly contend that the ass works just as well, because... well go find out yourself and THEN tell me if you think it was NATURAL!

The fact that one person prefers one orifice to another is in no way "proof" as to whether it is "natural" or not. Someone might like having sex in the ear. That doesn't make it "natural".

It's not in mankinds nature and instint to change your gender/wear the opposite sexes clothing/etc.

Says who? How do you know what "mankind's nature" is? Did God send you a pamphlet?

And don't say it's because of society, ultimately society evolved around it's NATURE!

Once again, I have no idea what you're talking about. Kudos.

1) Its pretty easy to realise they feel insufficient being whatever gender they are to change.

It's not about feeling "insufficient" as gender X. It's about feeling that you AREN'T gender X, but rather gender Y. I still don't see what's wrong with them making the decision to change themselves to make them feel better about themselves, any more than someone deciding to dye their hair, go on a diet, get liposuction is.

2) Normal is what is 'right' and something that doesn't go up against the grain

I would probably be considered fairly "normal" by most people (though not by myself), and I'd just like to say, on behalf of everyone who's ever been "different"...

FUCK THAT. Normal is subjective. Your "grain" varies from someone else's "grain", and they're both different from another person's "grain".

And "right"? Why even try to bring "right" and "wrong" into this? Being trans isn't right or wrong. It just is.

3) I believe in a God - and I am sick and tired of everyone assuming Christians to be exactly like George W. Bush.

Well, when you hear rhetoric reminiscient to his, it's hard for some people to avoid making those connections.

I concede the argument and will go and eat some chocolate spread sandwiches.





NOT!

You may as well concede this arguement, because you havent produced one iota of evidence to support your claims beyond your own narrow minded perceptions.

To: Nazi Weaponized Virus and to anyone else interested.

First off, to the ones that have read some of my posts on other threads. I try to be a moderate and believe in equality, blah, blah, blah.....

But i must admit that I understand where NWV is coming from. Personally i dislike all these ideas that separate one group from another. Black pride parades, gay pride parades, and all this...

if you gay your gay. your straight then your straight! who cares, why rub it in peoples faces.

in relation to transgenders...... that's harder. But if you attracted to someone physically and you get on well with them, does the rest matter?

Would you be offended if you found out that the women your sleeping with was once really ugly and has spent $200,000 of cosmetic surgery?

I concede the argument and will go and eat some chocolate spread sandwiches.

NOT!

Having an opinion is not an argument. I could just as easily say that you're abnormal, an insult to nature, a "freak", etc... because you like eating chocolate spread sandwiches.

After all, you don't see THAT in the wild! :rolleyes:

Nature is NATURE people they aren't NATURAL surgery is not NATURAL GAY SEX is not NATURAL you don't see half of the men with vaginas and half with penises and you can hardly contend that the ass works just as well, because... well go find out yourself and THEN tell me if you think it was NATURAL! It's not in mankinds nature and instint to change your gender/wear the opposite sexes clothing/etc. And don't say it's because of society, ultimately society evolved around it's NATURE!

please define natural.

Having an opinion is not an argument. I could just as easily say that you're abnormal, an insult to nature, a "freak", etc... because you like eating chocolate spread sandwiches.

After all, you don't see THAT in the wild! :rolleyes:


Except maybe in Germany, or Switzerland...'

They love that Nutella stuff.

But i must admit that I understand where NWV is coming from. Personally i dislike all these ideas that separate one group from another. Black pride parades, gay pride parades, and all this...

Except that most transgendered people are just trying to be themselves, and NOT stand out.

if you gay your gay. your straight then your straight! who cares, why rub it in peoples faces.

Except that I'm not sure that transgendered people are really trying to "rub" anything in anyone's face. These folks are just trying to live their lives. If anything, they're probably much less flamboyant about it than, say, some gay men.

Except maybe in Germany, or Switzerland...'

They love that Nutella stuff.

And in places like West Hollywood, nobody gives a shit if you're trans.

As I said, "different grains".

Except that most transgendered people are just trying to be themselves, and NOT stand out.


Except that I'm not sure that transgendered people are really trying to "rub" anything in anyone's face. These folks are just trying to live their lives. If anything, they're probably much less flamboyant about it than, say, some gay men.

I feel that you did take the points out of context slightly. Being transgendered is fine by me. I just do not like it when they try and stand out.
It is possible i am mixing up my terms though. If we are only talking about Mr A going and having an operation or treatment and he becomes Ms B and dresses like an average women, then fine. no problem. If he becomes Ms B and starts wearing head dresses and all that crap and is I'M DIFFERENT AND PROUD, etc... slight problem,

What i said about parades is not aimed at transgenders or any other group specifically, it is simply that i do not like people trying to stand out so much.... i feel it causes more friction not less

Personally, I don't understand the whole idea of gender identity in the first place. But for those who do, I believe that they have the right to be whatever gender they want to be.
And for those of you who hate transsexuals, what would you do if you woke up one day and found out you were the opposite gender?

Id go out and be a complete slut :D

I feel I must interject my point of view in this discussion.

Nazi Virus said:

"Basic decency dictates what runs up against the grain, not me."

and OahJoh said:

"I would probably be considered fairly "normal" by most people (though not by myself), and I'd just like to say, on behalf of everyone who's ever been "different"...

FUCK THAT. Normal is subjective. Your "grain" varies from someone else's "grain", and they're both different from another person's "grain".

And "right"? Why even try to bring "right" and "wrong" into this? Being trans isn't right or wrong. It just is."



I disagree.

There are clear cut rights and wrongs in the world.

1. Don't murder.
2. Don't steal with malice.
3. Genocide is wrong.
4. Vandalism and / or harming people with malevolence

And so forth.

These things stated above are in almost everybody's "grain". When people go and do these evil things, it goes aganist the standard "grain".



Just my 2 cents.

picture someone taking a shit on a zebra.


mmmmm... someone taking a shit on a zebra... mmmm

Having said that, I'll go on to ask if there is any particular reasoning why NWV still hasn't answered post #4 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6760574&postcount=4) in this thread. It has been bumped multiple times, but continues to elude response...

There are clear cut rights and wrongs in the world.

Congratulations, now all you need to do is prove this and you will have achieved something that philosophers have failed to do for two and a half thousand years.

1. Don't murder.
2. Don't steal with malice.
3. Genocide is wrong.
4. Vandalism and / or harming people with malevolence

#1 is by definition a wrong - it says don't kill people unjustly, but doesn't tell us what the grounds for just and unjust killings are.

#2-4 are just assertions.



These things stated above are in almost everybody's "grain".

Probably true.

When people go and do these evil things, it goes aganist the standard "grain".

Show me why #1-4 are 'evil'. I will assume that you can't.

If we remove that adjective then we are jsut left with a claim which boils down to:

There are some things which are in almost everybody's 'grain', when people go and do these things, it goes against the standard 'grain'.

Is it just me or was that an absolutely useless post that only managed to state the obvious?

The problem I see with transexuals is that it is a deception on a large scale. That they have to cut up and rearrange their bodies to get self-confidence, that they have to delude themselves into thinking they are the opposite gender is one thing, but deceiving others as well is not right in my opinion.

The problem I see with transexuals is that it is a deception on a large scale. That they have to cut up and rearrange their bodies to get self-confidence, that they have to delude themselves into thinking they are the opposite gender is one thing, but deceiving others as well is not right in my opinion.

The fact that many will acknowledge that they 'used to be' a man or woman underlines the fact that deception is not an integral part of trans-sexualism.

I feel that you did take the points out of context slightly. Being transgendered is fine by me. I just do not like it when they try and stand out.
It is possible i am mixing up my terms though. If we are only talking about Mr A going and having an operation or treatment and he becomes Ms B and dresses like an average women, then fine. no problem. If he becomes Ms B and starts wearing head dresses and all that crap and is I'M DIFFERENT AND PROUD, etc... slight problem,

What i said about parades is not aimed at transgenders or any other group specifically, it is simply that i do not like people trying to stand out so much.... i feel it causes more friction not less


Exactly...couldn't agree more.....looking at "the parades"...people see something extraordinary...something extravert and something that is all about standing out, being different..etc.... where most i.e. gay people just want to be accepted as normal human beings...in my opinion..things like those parades screw things up for the gay people who just want to have a normal life like any other person...

The fact that many will acknowledge that they 'used to be' a man or woman underlines the fact that deception is not an integral part of trans-sexualism.

That is true. As long as a transsexual was completely forthcoming with the admission of their real gender (as dictated by their chromosomes), that is fine.

If he becomes Ms B and starts wearing head dresses and all that crap and is I'M DIFFERENT AND PROUD, etc... slight problem,

Ah, so it all comes down to wearing 'head dresses' then.

Explain to me why transsexuals wearing headdresses is worse than vanilla men and women wearing headdresses? Is it extrovert behaviour from any source that you have a problem with? Or just when it comes from homosexual males, lesbians and transsexuals?

That is true. As long as a transsexual was completely forthcoming with the admission of their real gender (as dictated by their chromosomes), that is fine.

...but there is no reason for a transsexual to broadcast their status - whilst standing in a crowd, there is no reason for them to carry a sign saying "I used to be an x", is there? Only in closer circumstances does it have any relevance, and that level of relevance can only be based on individual cases or situations, yes?

...but there is no reason for a transsexual to broadcast their status - whilst standing in a crowd, there is no reason for them to carry a sign saying "I used to be an x", is there? Only in closer circumstances does it have any relevance, and that level of relevance can only be based on individual cases or situations, yes?

When I said completely forthcoming, I meant to an intended partner, not the checkout assistant at the local supermarket, etc.

When I said completely forthcoming, I meant to an intended partner, not the checkout assistant at the local supermarket, etc.

And do you have any reasons for believing that a large amount of trans-sexuals do deceive intended partners? I think the problem you are discussing isn't directly related to trans-sexuals, just to those of whatever sexual orientation/gender/outlook that practice deception with their partners of prospective partners, yes?

Bodies Without Organs...

Congratulations, now all you need to do is prove this and you will have achieved something that philosophers have failed to do for two and a half thousand years.

and

#1 is by definition a wrong - it says don't kill people unjustly, but doesn't tell us what the grounds for just and unjust killings are.

#2-4 are just assertions.


#1 = Most any nation and society in the world would agree that murdering someone in cold blood is labelled as "clear cut wrong".

#2 = Most any nation and society would consider stealing with malice (Such as the Erin Belanger theft / murder in Florida last week) a "clear cut wrong"

#3 = Massacring the Jews during World War II is a clear cut wrong. Same for the Killing Fields of Cambodia. Massacring civilians, such as in Rwanda is another example of "clear cut wrong".

#4 = Someone breaking in your house and smashing everything up is a clear cut wrong. Someone painting the Eiffel Tower or Statue of Liberty in graffiti that denotes hatred, malice, evil, etc. such as Nazi-sm, KKK-ism, or "hate groups" goes aganist the common "grain" of that particular nation.

Actually, I concede that #4 is open to interpretation, so I withdraw that point from my arguement.



The examples I cited above with the exception of #4 (It being withdrawn from this arguement) represent "evil" as in commiting atrocities with little regard for others, for pleasure, for dis-proportinate reason - to - action such as killing someone for saying "fuck you", or for no motive at all.

And in addition, there's the town, county, state / provinicial, national, and world "grains". In general, people share "community grains" which give them a community standard of likes, dislikes, aspirations, discrimination, laws, guidelines, etc.

So if a community dislikes a certain group, such as transgenders, homosexuals, Africans, Asians, Jews, etc. then that community would shun these groups. The members of the community would reinforce their beliefs, especially when passing it to their children.

Okay, lets take the South USA in the 1800's. They hated Africans, considered them slaves. So it went aganist their "normal / standard" grain to give Africans equal rights as whites, or abolish slavery. It took external "grain" to force the South to change their "grain" towards slavery, namely Lincoln's Emanaciption Act, along with the victory of the Union Army.


Hope that clears stuff up.

And do you have any reasons for believing that a large amount of trans-sexuals do deceive intended partners? I think the problem you are discussing isn't directly related to trans-sexuals, just to those of whatever sexual orientation/gender/outlook that practice deception with their partners of prospective partners, yes?

(This is Caveymen) I see what you mean. I wasn't saying they were inherently evil.

The examples I cited above with the exception of #4 (It being withdrawn from this arguement) represent "evil" as in commiting atrocities with little regard for others, for pleasure, for dis-proportinate reason - to - action such as killing someone for saying "fuck you", or for no motive at all.

That still doesn't prove that commiting such atrocities may not be 'evil' for reasons other than just because a particular culture labels it as such.

My response to you was based not on whether such standards are actually right or wrong, but the fact that your final claim... When people go and do these evil things, it goes aganist the standard "grain". doesn't really shed any light on the issue at hand.

It may very well be the case that in most cultures being a trans-sexual goes against the grain, but it may very well also be the case in most cultures that people don't listen to music played on nose-flutes, and thus that too goes against the grain.

(This is Caveymen) I see what you mean. I wasn't saying they were inherently evil.

Ahh: your initial post was somewhat ambiguous then: to me, at least, it seemed to read: transsexuals are unacceptable because they deceive others.

Ahh: your initial post was somewhat ambiguous then: to me, at least, it seemed to read: transsexuals are unacceptable because they deceive others.

I have a tendency to post without thinking the subject through thoroughly enough, thereby inhibiting clarity. I think that transsexuals are acceptable (they're not inherently criminal or anything), but I worry about their psychological state.

That still doesn't prove that commiting such atrocities may not be 'evil' for reasons other than just because a particular culture labels it as such.

Actually, there are international standards.

The international community condemned the Holocaust, the 9/11 attacks, Cambodia, Rwanda, and similiar atrocities.


My response to you was based not on whether such standards are actually right or wrong, but the fact that your final claim... When people go and do these evil things, it goes aganist the standard "grain". doesn't really shed any light on the issue at hand.

I was simply making a point in regards of several poster's claims about "grain" and how Nazi Virus claims that there is a standard "grain" and Oahjeh claims otherwise.

I was making the point that there ARE standard "grains" as regards to communities, whether at the town or the national level. Transexuals might go aganist a nation's "grain", similiar to how Jews went aganist Nazi Germany's "grain". I am very well aware that there are people within these nations that don't follow the "grain" such as freedom fighters, civil rights activists, etc.



For the record, I don't mind transexuals. In fact, I know one from another board forum that I frequent.

Actually, there are international standards.

The international community condemned the Holocaust, the 9/11 attacks, Cambodia, Rwanda, and similiar atrocities.

Yup, agreed, but we do not know if these are just contemporary labels attached to what behaviours are acceptable and what is not or if there is something inherently 'evil' about those things they condemn, but that is roaming far from the matter at hand.

Anyhow, got to go. Later.

If a man could be totally changed into a women with all the hormones and such and could have the ability to have children. Or vice versa.

Would you still be against it?

If a man could be totally changed into a women with all the hormones and such and could have the ability to have children. Or vice versa.

Would you still be against it?

I think that's one of the two issues that most people who are aganist transexuality have.

They depise the concept of a transexual starting a family and having kids. People aganist transexuality would hate the idea, especially that transexual men who change into women can't have babies, while transexual women who change into men possibly can have babies. It would be really weird, having "men" give birth.

The other concept would be having sex with the transexual, like Nazi Virus stated.


These two issues probably are the most common issue that anti-transexuals have.

Ah, so it all comes down to wearing 'head dresses' then.

Explain to me why transsexuals wearing headdresses is worse than vanilla men and women wearing headdresses? Is it extrovert behaviour from any source that you have a problem with? Or just when it comes from homosexual males, lesbians and transsexuals?

Not exactly sure what a "vanilla man or women" is. I am against any one group trying to stand out and be different. Also read the whole quote that you were talking about. i don't like people that try to stand out and say i'm different and proud. I don't care what sort of minority it is.
homosexual males, lesbians, transsexuals and heterosexuals can be extroverts, but why should one group try to stand out from the other and say I'M different.

Would you still be against it?

I think that's one of the two issues that most people who are aganist transexuality have.

They depise the concept of a transexual starting a family and having kids. People aganist transexuality would hate the idea, especially that transexual men who change into women can't have babies, while transexual women who change into men possibly can have babies. It would be really weird, having "men" give birth.

The other concept would be having sex with the transexual, like Nazi Virus stated.


These two issues probably are the most common issue that anti-transexuals have.

But if someone could be changed to such an extent. Literally changing their biology, what would be the difference whether you've changed sex or not?
its only biology.

Not exactly sure what a "vanilla man or women" is. I am against any one group trying to stand out and be different. Also read the whole quote that you were talking about. i don't like people that try to stand out and say i'm different and proud. I don't care what sort of minority it is.
homosexual males, lesbians, transsexuals and heterosexuals can be extroverts, but why should one group try to stand out from the other and say I'M different.


Sometimes groups do need to stand out for attention regarding law-making and such. If they publicize themselves, then they get people's attention. After doing so, they have a much larger "audience" to vote for passing the laws.

Blacks stood out for civil rights and de-segregation in the 1950's and 1960's. They got it BECAUSE they stood out, got the attention for their struggles.

If you don't act out, stand out, then you'd have no chance of getting things done. Sometimes aggressive acting is required to wake up people, and break media stereotypes.

Not exactly sure what a "vanilla man or women" is.

Straight. Sexually conventional. Missionary position and nothing else.

but why should one group try to stand out from the other and say I'M different.

Well, because they are different. Everybody is, and in the case of those under discussion they feel that it is their sexual difference which is their defining characteristic and so act to celebrate this fact, much in the same way that someone else might feel that their musical difference or youth culture is their defining characteristic and so act to celebrate it.

Sometimes groups do need to stand out for attention regarding law-making and such. If they publicize themselves, then they get people's attention. After doing so, they have a much larger "audience" to vote for passing the laws.

Blacks stood out for civil rights and de-segregation in the 1950's and 1960's. They got it BECAUSE they stood out, got the attention for their struggles.

If you don't act out, stand out, then you'd have no chance of getting things done. Sometimes aggressive acting is required to wake up people, and break media stereotypes.

and afterwards what? they should receive preferential treatment? or the majority have to poussy foot around them, as we don't want to be seen as bad?
Come on! Equality is great, i think its stupid for one group to be seen as better than the other.
Look at europe at the moment regarding gay marriage. politicians are coming out and saying yes i'm gay. That's fantastic. Makes people think, "wow, this minister is gay, he's like me and you!".
Do you honestly think its better to have a man dressed as a women in stilettos (having forgotten to shave) holding a plaque saying equal treatment!!!!

My point is : yes you have to be aggressive to shake up society to the problems at hand (at times), but after that point you should follow the normal channels to make the changes you want (or deserve)

Straight. Sexually conventional. Missionary position and nothing else.



Well, because they are different. Everybody is, and in the case of those under discussion they feel that it is their sexual difference which is their defining characteristic and so act to celebrate this fact, much in the same way that someone else might feel that their musical difference or youth culture is their defining characteristic and so act to celebrate it.

I can just imagine how many people would be happy to see a "white pride parade" going down the street or a "straight pride parade". A lot of people would find that offensive.

Do you honestly think its better to have a man dressed as a women in stilettos (having forgotten to shave) holding a plaque saying equal treatment!!!!

I fail to see what The Artist Formerly Known As Prince has to do with the matter at hand.

Is this ridiculous thread still going?

me and the trannies go :fluffle:

I fail to see what The Artist Formerly Known As Prince has to do with the matter at hand.

hahahahaha

So, 11 pages as NWV still hasn't answered the question Bodies Without Organs asked on page 1.

And to return to your comments about Nadia wanting a boyfriend. "Pity the poor guy that doesen't know". Yes, it must be terrible to not have seen the TV or any tabloid over the past six months.

me and the trannies go :fluffle:

You are joking right?

if you dislike people who change their appearance or deceive others then you basically hate the whole of humanity.

I think they are seriously screwed up for multilating themselves like that, and need help. It is not normal for someone to do that, I don't care what anyone says. It's fucked up.

Are we clear on what Transgender means? ITs not surgery, thats a Transexual. It simply means that you "identify as a member of the oppisite sex" Personally, I think that that is essentially PC hippy crap. There are two things that matter, wheather you have a penis, and weather you like to sleep with men or women. I refuse to call people by their pronoun of choice, I call them what is easiest for me whihc is their biological gender. I will not pretend a girl is a guy, and call her a he, just cause she wants me to, its confusing and unnessecary, she can just be a lesbian. having sex wiht women doesn't make you aman, neither does dressign like a man or even taking testosterone. Gender is one thing that is not a choice. Sorry.

i don't like people that try to stand out and say i'm different and proud. I don't care what sort of minority it is.
homosexual males, lesbians, transsexuals and heterosexuals can be extroverts, but why should one group try to stand out from the other and say I'M different.

Cause they damn well feel like it! Why should you ondemn them for wanting recognition of their differences? It snot like people say "Im gay and you should be too, straight people are going to hell" like some other groups might.. <cough> religion <cough>

So, 11 pages as NWV still hasn't answered the question Bodies Without Organs asked on page 1.

And to return to your comments about Nadia wanting a boyfriend. "Pity the poor guy that doesen't know". Yes, it must be terrible to not have seen the TV or any tabloid over the past six months.

Intresting, isn't it?

I can just imagine how many people would be happy to see a "white pride parade" going down the street or a "straight pride parade". A lot of people would find that offensive.

Although I am not _happy_ at seeing the Orange Lodge march down the street 200 yards from where I live, celebrating their heritage, I do not interfere. I am prepared to do so if they start forcing their values upon me, however. The fact that 99.999% of the culture that they celebrate is both white and heterosexual doesn't disturb me, as such, it is only if they claim to be superior to others or display hostility to them that it gets my goat.

Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

treansgenered peoples have the brain structure of the opposite sex to their birth sex. it's not a simple brain defect. mentally, they are the other gender.
that is how they are born. with the brain structure of the opposite sex already in their head. they can't change that, the best they can do is change the outside to match.

Once again, NWV starts a thread that is gigantic.

Once again, NWV starts a thread that is gigantic.

Ain't you heard? It ain't size that matters, it's how you use it, darling.

Your own choice, my own choice. Thats how you break it down.

I mean, I am one of the single most Liberal People on these boards - yet when it comes to this issue the people (trannies) instinctively sicken me, its not a long debate that led me to this conclusion, just the fact they are women now but were men once before. Sick, disgusting and wrong.

And no, Homos should not be given the right to marry just yet. Forcing change ahead of society's wishes is wrong in my book, its like your bones growing faster than your muscles. But when the time is right it should be done. Can't you ultra liberals just accept that most of society DOES NOT WANT IT JUST YET? But rest assured, when Public Opinion changes, and trust me, it will, I would be the first to stand up and say 'Let these people marry!'

you're most certainly not one of the single most liberal people on these boards with an attitude like that about people who are different than you are.
what the hell, i'm surprised you're even making that claim.

Ain't you heard? It ain't size that matters, it's how you use it, darling.

As... Uneloquent as I can get again....

Thats what people with small cocks say. Simple as that.

you're most certainly not one of the single most liberal people on these boards with an attitude like that about people who are different than you are.
what the hell, i'm surprised you're even making that claim.

You would be surprised how Liberal I am in other areas, I dont agree with incarceration in a lot of cases for example.

A liberal who doesn't approve of one variety of pervert; even a broken clock is right occasionally.

Nope, they have a defect of the brain. Gals that just want bigger breasts are perfectionists, or have incredibly small breasts in which case it is justified for the ensuing enjoyment of the male populace.

and i thought you couldn't say anything stupider.

1. they have analysed the brain structure of your average men and women, as well as transgendered and homosexual men and women. there is a part of the brain i think the hippocampus or hypothalamus... it started with an h at any rate, and the men had the biggest, women the smallest. homosexuals would be in between, the homosexual women having a bigger part than the average women, the homosexual men, smaller than the average man. transgendered people who were originally men had the same size as the heterosexual women, transgendered people originally women had the same size as heterosexual men. it's not a simple brain defect. it's a completely different brain structure. gender isn't just about who has a penis or a y chromosome. there is a mental aspect to it as well.

2. you are a pig for suggesting that women need to change their bodies to suit the need for enjoyment of men. ass.

You would be surprised how Liberal I am in other areas, I dont agree with incarceration in a lot of cases for example.

yet you don't like rights for those different than you. funny how that works.

I think it is wrong to change the way we are born. I do not agree with altering your sexual organs...and I am wondering why these transgender freaks want to be so flamboyant after doing so...

A liberal who doesn't approve of one variety of pervert; even a broken clock is right occasionally.

actually, it would be right twice a day.

and i don't understand how they're preverts. they're men and women trapped in the bodies of women and men. it's not like they get some new pleasure from their new bodies except for feeling right. it's not even the same effect as plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes. generally people who get plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes aren't happy until they reach their ideal, trangendered people start to feel better after some slight hormone therapy.
at any rate, they're born thinking the way of the opposite sex. that's who they are.

I think it is wrong to change the way we are born. I do not agree with altering your sexual organs...and I am wondering why these transgender freaks want to be so flamboyant after doing so...

not all of them are flamboyant about it, i doubt many of them are. transvestites seem more flamboyant to me.

and my boyfriend was born with a cancerous tumour on his leg. should they have left it there instead of removing it and most of his calf muscle since that's the way he was born?

I have known exactly one transgendered person. He was a normal man for 27 years, dated women the whole time, shocked everyone he know by having himself hacked and hormoned into a sort of woman like creature... and continued to date women.

That strongly influenced my perceptions of transgenders as just being in it for some sort of twisted sex thing.

I am less hardline on the occasional person born with an inny and an outty, where the doctor decides. That can't be right more than what, 50% of the time. In that case I would refrain from the word pervert.



actually, it would be right twice a day.

and i don't understand how they're preverts. they're men and women trapped in the bodies of women and men. it's not like they get some new pleasure from their new bodies except for feeling right. it's not even the same effect as plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes. generally people who get plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes aren't happy until they reach their ideal, trangendered people start to feel better after some slight hormone therapy.
at any rate, they're born thinking the way of the opposite sex. that's who they are.

It does when you see them, it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

booh-freaking-hoo. should fat people be confined to their homes because anorexics feel sick looking at them? should old people be killed because people feel uncomfortable knowing that they're going to be like that someday? should black men be placed under house arrest because someone's scared of them?
it's your problem, not theirs.

Because its wrong, it makes me sick and its a blemish upon nature

nature made them that way. nature made them men with the brains of women. they're only making the outside match the inside.

They scare me.

i suppose that's really the heart of the subject. your own fear. well, i have news for you. a lot of people are afraid of lots of things. we don't stop making closets small because claustrophobics are afraid of them.. we don't prevent immigration because people find other races threatening. so again, it's your problem, not theirs. you have to deal with it.

It's understandable, and to be expected that not everyone is going to agree with lifestyles of various groups, doesn't matter who they are, there's always someone who'll despise what they do. But it's one thing to not agree with someone's lifestyle. It's something completely different to hate a general group of people. It is a generalization to say that all transgender individuals are just looking for attention. Sure, some are, but not everybody fits into any general mold made by another. So, if you disagree with transgender people, that's your right, but remember that just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make you right. My two pennies.

I have known exactly one transgendered person. He was a normal man for 27 years, dated women the whole time, shocked everyone he know by having himself hacked and hormoned into a sort of woman like creature... and continued to date women.

That strongly influenced my perceptions of transgenders as just being in it for some sort of twisted sex thing.

I am less hardline on the occasional person born with an inny and an outty, where the doctor decides. That can't be right more than what, 50% of the time. In that case I would refrain from the word pervert.

if he was actually permitted to have a sex change operation, he wasn't really a normal man for 27 years. he was a man who was really a woman on the inside. they don't let just anybody hack off their penises and breasts and have vaginas or a penis constructed, they have to undergo psychiatric analysis beforehand to determine whether they are indeed transgendered. so if i went to a doctor tomorrow and said "i'd like to be a man" they wouldn't do it, i'm not transgendered i'm aware that i'm a woman, i feel perfectly comfortable in my own skin. these people don't. perhaps your friend was hiding that from everybody because he knew that you wouldn't accept it.

and just because she continued to date women doesn't mean that it's some twisted sex thing. she is attracted to women and has the mentality of a woman, just like any lesbian out there, except that she was born with a penis.

it's not the outside that matters, your friend is the same person as a man as she is as a woman, she's probably a lot more comfortable right now than she was as a man though.

Basic decency dictates what runs up against the grain, not me.

so it's basic decency to hate people for something beyond their control?

Its also the fact that they insult nature itself.
Wow, how blessed you are to be in direct communication with this "nature" entity!

i have a little suggestion for those of you who live in dread of having sex with a woman who used to be a man

how bout you get to know the women you have sex with before you bed them?

then you can just about guarantee no nasty surprises "in the middle" that would scar your delicate sexuality for all time

i have a little suggestion for those of you who live in dread of having sex with a woman who used to be a man

how bout you get to know the women you have sex with before you bed them?

then you can just about guarantee no nasty surprises "in the middle" that would scar your delicate sexuality for all time

Right. Getting to know them. "Say... by any chance... do you have a penis?" or "I was just wondering, I mean I know we've been hanging out for five months, but did you ever used to be a man?" Hooray modern society.

Oookay... Wow.

Well, for starters, as someone who actually is transgendered, allow me to chat for a bit.

Attention? Yeesh. I dare say that I know the attitudes of the transgendered community a bit better than most, and I have to say that attention is not something we seek out. I mean, come on, I'm a librarian.

And really, what's the big deal about surgury? There's a great deal more justification to sex reassignment surgury (SRS) than to most other body modifications. Hell, there are tons of us who don't even pursue surgery.

Unfortunately, transsexuals, particularly MtF's, have been portrayed in an almost uniformly negative way. Square jawed, hairy fellows in dresses. Finger snapping, clownishly made up crossdressers. And of course the whorish "shemale" of pornogrophy.

Oy vey.

Don't look at transsexuals as a group. They're people, individuals. This may amaze you, but transgendered people have differing political views, religious beliefs, jobs, talents, and sexual orientations.

I've known transgendered people from all walks of life. Students, programmers, athletes, doctors, writers, soldiers, etc. And you're right, they weren't always normal. They were exceptional. Transsexuals are quite often the most intelligent, creative, and sensitive people you will ever meet.

As for deception. Well, that's something that has to be dealt with on an individual basis. I'm of a mind that when you enter into a serious relationship with someone, you should be honest. But given attitudes like I've seen here, it's easy to see why transsexuals might want to keep their secrets. Once again though, most transsexuals I know are honest about themselves with serious partners.

The bulk of the transgendered community isn't out for attention. We don't go making trouble. We're a relatively small group of people who do our best to fit in. It's unfair to judge us because of one thing that makes us different.

Especially since there are so many differences in transgenderism itself. Hell, look at me, I'm a non-operative, no hormones, transgendered person. I live and work as a woman and I've never had any problems "passing" as a girl. I'm bisexual, I date people I find attractive and interesting, and I'm always honest about who I am.

We're not a threat to anyone. I find both amusing and distressing that so many of you seem to find us threatening and your only real exposure to our community probably comes from Jerry Springer or some other bit of mass media propaganda.

I'm not sick, I'm brave enough to be who I am. And I'm brave enough not to be afraid of people who are more concerned with what I am than who I am.

I'm not messing up your life by being me. Unlike some people, I mind my own business. You don't like transgenderism? Tough. It isn't going away. You're welcome to hate me as much as you like, but don't be surprised when I hate you right back. I'll fight anyone to protect my life. And that's what it is, a life, not a lifestyle.

And I wouldn't worry too much about finding out that your girlfriend is a transsexual somewhere down the line. I know that I wouldn't go anywhere near a man who had such ugly ideas about other people. Especially if I was one of those other people.

You stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours.

Oookay... Wow.

Well, for starters, as someone who actually is transgendered, allow me to chat for a bit.

Attention? Yeesh. I dare say that I know the attitudes of the transgendered community a bit better than most, and I have to say that attention is not something we seek out. I mean, come on, I'm a librarian.

And really, what's the big deal about surgury? There's a great deal more justification to sex reassignment surgury (SRS) than to most other body modifications. Hell, there are tons of us who don't even pursue surgery.

Unfortunately, transsexuals, particularly MtF's, have been portrayed in an almost uniformly negative way. Square jawed, hairy fellows in dresses. Finger snapping, clownishly made up crossdressers. And of course the whorish "shemale" of pornogrophy.

Oy vey.

Don't look at transsexuals as a group. They're people, individuals. This may amaze you, but transgendered people have differing political views, religious beliefs, jobs, talents, and sexual orientations.

I've known transgendered people from all walks of life. Students, programmers, athletes, doctors, writers, soldiers, etc. And you're right, they weren't always normal. They were exceptional. Transsexuals are quite often the most intelligent, creative, and sensitive people you will ever meet.

As for deception. Well, that's something that has to be dealt with on an individual basis. I'm of a mind that when you enter into a serious relationship with someone, you should be honest. But given attitudes like I've seen here, it's easy to see why transsexuals might want to keep their secrets. Once again though, most transsexuals I know are honest about themselves with serious partners.

The bulk of the transgendered community isn't out for attention. We don't go making trouble. We're a relatively small group of people who do our best to fit in. It's unfair to judge us because of one thing that makes us different.

Especially since there are so many differences in transgenderism itself. Hell, look at me, I'm a non-operative, no hormones, transgendered person. I live and work as a woman and I've never had any problems "passing" as a girl. I'm bisexual, I date people I find attractive and interesting, and I'm always honest about who I am.

We're not a threat to anyone. I find both amusing and distressing that so many of you seem to find us threatening and your only real exposure to our community probably comes from Jerry Springer or some other bit of mass media propaganda.

I'm not sick, I'm brave enough to be who I am. And I'm brave enough not to be afraid of people who are more concerned with what I am than who I am.

I'm not messing up your life by being me. Unlike some people, I mind my own business. You don't like transgenderism? Tough. It isn't going away. You're welcome to hate me as much as you like, but don't be surprised when I hate you right back. I'll fight anyone to protect my life. And that's what it is, a life, not a lifestyle.

And I wouldn't worry too much about finding out that your girlfriend is a transsexual somewhere down the line. I know that I wouldn't go anywhere near a man who had such ugly ideas about other people. Especially if I was one of those other people.

You stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours.

**applauds you wholeheartedly** I am a man inside a woman's body and bisexual. I am getting married to my opposite ((woman in a male body)). It is clear to see our true gender roles but for the sake of his parents ((and money)) We aren't seeking surgury. The few people I have known to get the surgury are now happier, more of a well adjusted person than they were before it. They live normal lives. One of those is a person that had it lives a celibate life. Shi has no interest in either gender and told me that if they were to fall in love, they want some one who crossed the barrier as well.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to discover yourself and find peace with who you are.

If you date, be honest with the person. The last thing we need is a hate crime from ignorance. That is my advice to the world for everything from std's to sexual identity.

well said estavia

*applauds*

well SB, you could ASK every potential sex partner if they had once been of the other gender OR you could get to know them, meet their families, see old school pictures. if you went to a family holiday dinner i can pretty much guarantee that "aunt suzy" will be more than happy to tell you every flaw in your beloved.

afterall there are a mulititude of things that people lie about
stds, children, marriages, drug abuse, the list goes on and on, its a good thing to find this stuff out before you start a sexual relationship with anyone

why would you think they're doing it for attention?? they represent the union of masculine and feminine, something considered downright HOLY in alot of cultures - you're being a post-christian prude, and that's annoying.

Oookay... Wow.

Well, for starters, as someone who actually is transgendered, allow me to chat for a bit.

Attention? Yeesh. I dare say that I know the attitudes of the transgendered community a bit better than most, and I have to say that attention is not something we seek out. I mean, come on, I'm a librarian.

And really, what's the big deal about surgury? There's a great deal more justification to sex reassignment surgury (SRS) than to most other body modifications. Hell, there are tons of us who don't even pursue surgery.

Unfortunately, transsexuals, particularly MtF's, have been portrayed in an almost uniformly negative way. Square jawed, hairy fellows in dresses. Finger snapping, clownishly made up crossdressers. And of course the whorish "shemale" of pornogrophy.

Oy vey.

Don't look at transsexuals as a group. They're people, individuals. This may amaze you, but transgendered people have differing political views, religious beliefs, jobs, talents, and sexual orientations.

I've known transgendered people from all walks of life. Students, programmers, athletes, doctors, writers, soldiers, etc. And you're right, they weren't always normal. They were exceptional. Transsexuals are quite often the most intelligent, creative, and sensitive people you will ever meet.

As for deception. Well, that's something that has to be dealt with on an individual basis. I'm of a mind that when you enter into a serious relationship with someone, you should be honest. But given attitudes like I've seen here, it's easy to see why transsexuals might want to keep their secrets. Once again though, most transsexuals I know are honest about themselves with serious partners.

The bulk of the transgendered community isn't out for attention. We don't go making trouble. We're a relatively small group of people who do our best to fit in. It's unfair to judge us because of one thing that makes us different.

Especially since there are so many differences in transgenderism itself. Hell, look at me, I'm a non-operative, no hormones, transgendered person. I live and work as a woman and I've never had any problems "passing" as a girl. I'm bisexual, I date people I find attractive and interesting, and I'm always honest about who I am.

We're not a threat to anyone. I find both amusing and distressing that so many of you seem to find us threatening and your only real exposure to our community probably comes from Jerry Springer or some other bit of mass media propaganda.

I'm not sick, I'm brave enough to be who I am. And I'm brave enough not to be afraid of people who are more concerned with what I am than who I am.

I'm not messing up your life by being me. Unlike some people, I mind my own business. You don't like transgenderism? Tough. It isn't going away. You're welcome to hate me as much as you like, but don't be surprised when I hate you right back. I'll fight anyone to protect my life. And that's what it is, a life, not a lifestyle.

And I wouldn't worry too much about finding out that your girlfriend is a transsexual somewhere down the line. I know that I wouldn't go anywhere near a man who had such ugly ideas about other people. Especially if I was one of those other people.

You stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours.

you go girl, I'm sorry you and people like you have to put up with this sort of crap.

well SB, you could ASK every potential sex partner if they had once been of the other gender OR you could get to know them, meet their families, see old school pictures. if you went to a family holiday dinner i can pretty much guarantee that "aunt suzy" will be more than happy to tell you every flaw in your beloved.

afterall there are a mulititude of things that people lie about
stds, children, marriages, drug abuse, the list goes on and on, its a good thing to find this stuff out before you start a sexual relationship with anyone

I don't go to family holiday dinners with anyone I'm interested in, it usually kills the sexual interest.

Damn, whatever happened to spontaneity and romance? When did it become necessary to basically perform police report analyses before sex? When did people become so dishonest that you can't even tell their GENDER without extensive background searches? Argh, pisses me off, no wonder I don't bother with the game.

I don't go to family holiday dinners with anyone I'm interested in, it usually kills the sexual interest.

Damn, whatever happened to spontaneity and romance? When did it become necessary to basically perform police report analyses before sex? When did people become so dishonest that you can't even tell their GENDER without extensive background searches? Argh, pisses me off, no wonder I don't bother with the game.

What happened was the birth of severe std's and people wanting more out of life than a cheap fuck. Hope you find your instant gratification and never long for more in your life.

Damn, whatever happened to spontaneity and romance? When did it become necessary to basically perform police report analyses before sex? When did people become so dishonest that you can't even tell their GENDER without extensive background searches? Argh, pisses me off, no wonder I don't bother with the game.

how is it dishonest if you don't ask?

i mean, if you never ask someone how many sexual partners they had and they never told you and they had 30, they weren't dishonest, you just never asked.

Although I am not _happy_ at seeing the Orange Lodge march down the street 200 yards from where I live, celebrating their heritage, I do not interfere. I am prepared to do so if they start forcing their values upon me, however. The fact that 99.999% of the culture that they celebrate is both white and heterosexual doesn't disturb me, as such, it is only if they claim to be superior to others or display hostility to them that it gets my goat.Sorry to tangent here but that's not a good example. Loyalists are protestant supremacists so Orange marches are precisely about proclaiming their superiority. I have known exactly one transgendered person. He was a normal man for 27 years, dated women the whole time, shocked everyone he know by having himself hacked and hormoned into a sort of woman like creature... and continued to date women.

That strongly influenced my perceptions of transgenders as just being in it for some sort of twisted sex thing.
You're basing your perceptions of transexuals largely on your experience of precisely one person? I got bullied by a kid with brown eyes when I was at school. Are all people with brown eyes bullies?

I don't go to family holiday dinners with anyone I'm interested in, it usually kills the sexual interest.


Haha, now THAT was actually funny in an ironic way.

Sorry, just had to point that out. :)

You're basing your perceptions of transexuals largely on your experience of precisely one person? I got bullied by a kid with brown eyes when I was at school. Are all people with brown eyes bullies?

Largely.... yes.... people with brown eyes are bullies seeing how most of the world population has brown eyes. They person was stating that not all people like us need to be groups and lumped with a cruel ideal. We are just as normal as anyone else. I look female, have female equipment, but I am a male inside. My lover has male equipment and looks but is genuinely female in his heart.

What happened was the birth of severe std's and people wanting more out of life than a cheap fuck. Hope you find your instant gratification and never long for more in your life.

Wanting more out of life, ya mean like changing one's gender? Real swell. Give me a cheap fuck anyday.

Dakini, if someone goes through something as unusual and drastic as changing their gender, that should be something they ought to introduce to people they intend to get in bed with, don't you think? Without having to be asked first? That's the thing, the whole "I changed my gender but if you don't ask, I won't tell, so you'll just be deceived." Dishonest. There's more to dishonest than just lying, leaving out key details can also be dishonest.

Also, few people are very honest about their sex history, especially when asked point-blank. People are just dishonest nowadays, generally. It bugs. Perhaps they were always dishonest, but then again in past ages there wasn't the option of them actually having grown up as a MAN, with that having to be a question you actually have to ask them since otherwise they don't feel obligated to tell.

Haha, now THAT was actually funny in an ironic way.

Sorry, just had to point that out. :)

I know. Seeing someone's parents is like seeing what they'd look like, after decades of hellish marriage and after pumping out multiple children. Not usually a turn-on...

Wanting more out of life, ya mean like changing one's gender? Real swell. Give me a cheap fuck anyday.

Dakini, if someone goes through something as unusual and drastic as changing their gender, that should be something they ought to introduce to people they intend to get in bed with, don't you think? Without having to be asked first? That's the thing, the whole "I changed my gender but if you don't ask, I won't tell, so you'll just be deceived." Dishonest. There's more to dishonest than just lying, leaving out key details can also be dishonest.

Also, few people are very honest about their sex history, especially when asked point-blank. People are just dishonest nowadays, generally. It bugs. Perhaps they were always dishonest, but then again in past ages there wasn't the option of them actually having grown up as a MAN, with that having to be a question you actually have to ask them since otherwise they don't feel obligated to tell.

What does it matter to you if your girl with her legs wide open was once a dude? It's not like YOU are going to marry here, you just want to wet your wang.

It matters to me. Nuff said.

And wtf is up with you, you have NO idea what I would want out of a relationship, stop acting as if you do.

It matters to me. Nuff said.

And wtf is up with you, you have NO idea what I would want out of a relationship, stop acting as if you do.

Well by reading a handful of your posts I have a general idea, you don't do meeting the family of sex partners. Well that clearly says you are just in it for the sex. So remember anytime you open your mouth or this case, your message box, be prepared to taste the shit you just stepped into.

Well by reading a handful of your posts I have a general idea, you don't do meeting the family of sex partners. Well that clearly says you are just in it for the sex. So remember anytime you open your mouth or this case, your message box, be prepared to taste the shit you just stepped into.

Not meeting a sex partner's parents = only in it for sex?

I call bullshit.

I know. Seeing someone's parents is like seeing what they'd look like, after decades of hellish marriage and after pumping out multiple children. Not usually a turn-on...

Yeah, I know you meant that.

But what I thought was funny in an ironic way, if that wasn't clear, was that you would find out stuff about your partner at those happenings. Such as sexsurgery etc. ;)

But I guess what you describe kinda in a way is something you don't wanna know. Am yet to meet a girl that looks better when 40+ then when around 20 years old. ;)

Wanting more out of life, ya mean like changing one's gender? Real swell. Give me a cheap fuck anyday.

didn't you just say you weren't just out for a cheap fuck? well, i suppose you said so afterwards...

Dakini, if someone goes through something as unusual and drastic as changing their gender, that should be something they ought to introduce to people they intend to get in bed with, don't you think? Without having to be asked first? That's the thing, the whole "I changed my gender but if you don't ask, I won't tell, so you'll just be deceived." Dishonest. There's more to dishonest than just lying, leaving out key details can also be dishonest.

Also, few people are very honest about their sex history, especially when asked point-blank. People are just dishonest nowadays, generally. It bugs. Perhaps they were always dishonest, but then again in past ages there wasn't the option of them actually having grown up as a MAN, with that having to be a question you actually have to ask them since otherwise they don't feel obligated to tell.

i think having 30 sex partners is a little more important than having been a different gender. unless you want to procreate with this person, at least. but yeah, 30 sex partners is a lot of risk, having no sex and then a sex change is not a high risk...
and if you don't get to know your sex partners before engaging in the act, whose fault is it?

i would also like to add that all that has changed is the outside. mentally they'd have been a girl their whole life, whether they appeared to be one or not.

Anyway, the creator of the thread has still not managed to answer post number 4 in this thread. I am still waiting.

Once again, NWV starts a thread that is gigantic.

A thing just occured to me. Did you creat this thread on the purpose to draw attention to yourself? It seems so atleast. Even more irony in this thread. Me likes!

i think having 30 sex partners is a little more important than having been a different gender. unless you want to procreate with this person, at least. but yeah, 30 sex partners is a lot of risk, having no sex and then a sex change is not a high risk...
and if you don't get to know your sex partners before engaging in the act, whose fault is it?

Exactly, it is ignorance to think you can just go into a bar and pick of some one with out getting to know them unless you like unhappy suprises. In this day and age, you really need to at least get to know them and grill them on their past. It just might save your life.

"Ignorance is bliss, or it is until your cock has rotted off."

didn't you just say you weren't just out for a cheap fuck? well, i suppose you said so afterwards...



Well I'm not opposed to the concept, but I was just making the point that cheap fucking is usually a superior choice to chopping off your genitals. My opinion, anyway.


i think having 30 sex partners is a little more important than having been a different gender. unless you want to procreate with this person, at least. but yeah, 30 sex partners is a lot of risk, having no sex and then a sex change is not a high risk...
and if you don't get to know your sex partners before engaging in the act, whose fault is it?

I disagree. One will be using a condom regardless, so the risk is always exactly the risk of condom mishaps or clumsiness and such.

It is the obligation of the person to divulge necessary information with whom they are going to do something. That's my belief. If someone, say, deliberately hides a fact (30 sex partners, or previous testicle ownership) it is not my fault for having been unable to see through the deception, it is theirs for being dishonest.


i would also like to add that all that has changed is the outside. mentally they'd have been a girl their whole life, whether they appeared to be one or not.

Right, well the outside DOES matter, otherwise I wouldn't care whether I had sex with men, women, or barn animals would I?

*laughing to lala land.* Precisely, methinks.

It's just bashing without listening to the people who actually *know* about the subject.

He just likes to hear himself type.

So if this chick you are staring intently at while your eyes are bleary from beer tells you...

A. Wanna have fun? Just to warn you, I have AIDS.

or

B. Wanna have fun? Just to warn you, I was male.


Which would be better for you?

C. "No thanks."

Some things are better left unsaid. But honestly, I doubt anyone would be so forthright, specially AIDS patients or heshefemales.

C. "No thanks."

Some things are better left unsaid. But honestly, I doubt anyone would be so forthright, specially AIDS patients or heshefemales.

Well I am honest that the bulge in my pants is really a dildo and not my wang.

And if things are better left unsaid.... THEN DON"T BITCH WHEN YOU FIND OUT SHE WAS MALE!!!

Why should anyone be villified? You're entitled to your opinion. I think it's all a moot point and everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone.
i second

Well I'm not opposed to the concept, but I was just making the point that cheap fucking is usually a superior choice to chopping off your genitals. My opinion, anyway.

but for people who are mentally in the wrong body, getting their body to be how they feel is the superior choice. well, perhaps cheap fucking is on the menu as well, but feeling right with oneself is generally quite important.

I disagree. One will be using a condom regardless, so the risk is always exactly the risk of condom mishaps or clumsiness and such.

condoms don't prevent herpes...

It is the obligation of the person to divulge necessary information with whom they are going to do something. That's my belief. If someone, say, deliberately hides a fact (30 sex partners, or previous testicle ownership) it is not my fault for having been unable to see through the deception, it is theirs for being dishonest.

so you go into a bar, pick up a chick take her home and don't ask her about her sexual history. you fuck her and the next morning find out that she's quite promiscuous, or that she used to be a he. you never asked, she never told.
do you tell a girl how many girls you've slept with before you engage in such acts if she doesn't ask?

Right, well the outside DOES matter, otherwise I wouldn't care whether I had sex with men, women, or barn animals would I?

barn animals aren't quite the same as people, what with the lack of ability to consent and you know, hold up a conversation.
but what you seem to be upset about is the same deal as though you slept with a girl and then found out she used to be a blimp. so what if she was fat before? she isn't now and chances are, she hasn't changed much from being fat to being skinny other than physically, perhaps she has more self confidence than before... but really, she's still the same person she was when she weighed a lot more.

Well I am honest that the bulge in my pants is really a dildo and not my wang.

And if things are better left unsaid.... THEN DON"T BITCH WHEN YOU FIND OUT SHE WAS MALE!!!

exactly!

but what you seem to be upset about is the same deal as though you slept with a girl and then found out she used to be a blimp. so what if she was fat before? she isn't now and chances are, she hasn't changed much from being fat to being skinny other than physically, perhaps she has more self confidence than before... but really, she's still the same person she was when she weighed a lot more.

Hey watch it with that blimp talk, I am a fatty myself. :D

Hey watch it with that blimp talk, I am a fatty myself. :D

i'm sure you're not. lots of people who are slightly pudgy seem to think themselves fat. having some fat is healthy.

A Lib Dem you say? Well then, seing as we now have a Lib Dem council in Glasgow, make sure you dont come up here to work!

Isist, not only are some things better left unsaid, some things are better left undone. Like sex change operations. I'm not complaining because this happened, I'm just posting on a thread about it. Jeez.

Dakini, I usually do ask about sexual history, because sexual history is something they're likely to have. Sex change operations, being freakish and for freaks, are not, so I don't ask about it. Just like I don't ask "Are you an undercover muslim terrorist." Do you ask that of your sex partners? What if you found out later they were an undercover muslim terrorist? Would it be your fault for never having asked? Think about it.

And I do mention my sex history, at least as much as they need to know. Actually, usually more than that.

Lastly, having once been fat is different from having once been the opposite gender. I think gender is more important than fat. I don't see someone as the exact same way regardless of whether they are in the "wrong" body. I mean whats up with THAT concept, anyway? The only "right" body is the one you were born with.

Isist, not only are some things better left unsaid, some things are better left undone. Like sex change operations. I'm not complaining because this happened, I'm just posting on a thread about it. Jeez.

Dakini, I usually do ask about sexual history, because sexual history is something they're likely to have. Sex change operations, being freakish and for freaks, are not, so I don't ask about it.

Well to me, my breast and vagina are a birth defects and prevent me from being truly happy with who I am. I am told that if some one hates something about themselves, they should change it. That is all a sex change operation is, just changing what you hate about your self, just the same as any plastic surgury to make a nose perfect, change the shape and size of a breast... it is all vainity.

But in a way I can nearly (just nearly) see your point. I rather date some one who is ugly than some one who got plastic surgury.

Dakini, I usually do ask about sexual history, because sexual history is something they're likely to have. Sex change operations, being freakish and for freaks, are not, so I don't ask about it. Just like I don't ask "Are you an undercover muslim terrorist." Do you ask that of your sex partners? What if you found out later they were an undercover muslim terrorist? Would it be your fault for never having asked? Think about it.

i don't have sex with people i've just met in bars. the least amount of time i've given between starting to date a person and having sex with them is three months. and that was three months where we spent a lot of time together and i'd already met his family (i met his dad before i met him, actually) i don't just go pick people up in bars and fuck them the same night.

at any rate, really unless you're going to want to have children with a person, it doesn't matter what thei bits and pieces used to be, you didn't know them when their bits and pieces were like that. and as i mentioned earlier, if someone was always mentally a woman and gets their physical appearance changed to match, perhaps it's not the first thing they'd think of after a while, perhaps they'd bring it up if you gave them more time than "how many have you had?" before going at it, they'd bring it up.

Lastly, having once been fat is different from having once been the opposite gender. I think gender is more important than fat. I don't see someone as the exact same way regardless of whether they are in the "wrong" body. I mean whats up with THAT concept, anyway? The only "right" body is the one you were born with.

they're still the same person, and as i mentioned a few pages back, their brain structure is the same as the opposite sex they were born as. gender isn't just in x's and y's, nor is it in penises and vaginas. gender isn't entirely physical. the former woman trapped in a man's body is now a woman in a woman's body. she has always mentally been a woman. and if you're looking for an meaningful relationship, that's what matters, what's inside the person, who they are, not what's on the outside.

Dakini, I usually do ask about sexual history, because sexual history is something they're likely to have. Sex change operations, being freakish and for freaks, are not, so I don't ask about it. Just like I don't ask "Are you an undercover muslim terrorist." Do you ask that of your sex partners? What if you found out later they were an undercover muslim terrorist? Would it be your fault for never having asked? Think about it.

I think this is good. And when you are on this topic, imo, the transsexual should tell you about it. And any other question that actually would be to frank to ask. Otherwise I'd see it as beeing desived.

On the other hand, if you wouldn't have this talk and the transsexual never told before it was "to late" it's more your fault.

imo.

I think the paranoia some people have that some transsexual is going to seduce them comes from media images of drag queens.

Most transsexuals (I should add, of the ones that are very sexually active at *all,* ... there's this matter of, oh, I dunno, ...*being grossed out by their own parts* that's been known to put a damper on things.) are pretty strictly ethical about whom they tell, and when.

Most people's popular image of a transsexual is in fact of *drag queens,* who are gay men doing performance art that's often meant to be a lurid caricature of women, or other kinds of crossdressers. *as depicted on TV,* ...invariably, as sex-workers, or criminals trying to deceive people.

This basically isn't the reality. Most transsexuals really aren't out to fool *anyone,* but there's safety issues when there's jerks out there who think it's okay to hate them, threaten them with violence, or even brutally-murder them just for being, or daring to be around in public where some jerk might come onto them, then freak out cause that makes them question their sexuality.

They're people. You don't know them.

2) Normal is what is 'right' and something that doesn't go up against the grain

3) I believe in a God - and I am sick and tired of everyone assuming Christians to be exactly like George W. Bush.

2. Staying in the wrong body is what goes against their grain.

3. Well, you obviously have a lot in common on this particular issue, which is the only thing relevant to this thread. Actually, I don't see how proclaiming you're being discriminated against on religious grounds is relevent at all. Unless you are planning to object to transgenders based on your own personnal religious morality. Which you didn't. So quit whining.


Homosexuals could be argued to be scientifically created to cut down on over-population.


Why does love have to be scientifically justified?
And how do their personnal choices affect you that you feel you have such authority to judge them?


Transexuals, however, are most likely just a birth defect.


Bravo, master of the obvious! They were born into the wrong body. If that's not a birth defect, I don't know what is. :rolleyes:


Transexuals should not try to conceal their unique sexuality. Period.


Not even when they are persecuted and ostrasized for it?
No, they shouldn't conceal their "unique sexuality" in a romantic relationship, but unless you are intimately involved with one, I don't see how it's any of your business.

Anglican Archbishop Benjamin Tutu of South Africa writes “if this sexual orientation were indeed a matter of personal choice, the homosexual persons must be the craziest coots around to choose a way of life that exposes them to so much hostility, discrimination, loss, and suffering.”

I feel I must interject my point of view in this discussion.

Nazi Virus said:

"Basic decency dictates what runs up against the grain, not me."

and OahJoh said:

"I would probably be considered fairly "normal" by most people (though not by myself), and I'd just like to say, on behalf of everyone who's ever been "different"...

FUCK THAT. Normal is subjective. Your "grain" varies from someone else's "grain", and they're both different from another person's "grain".

And "right"? Why even try to bring "right" and "wrong" into this? Being trans isn't right or wrong. It just is."


I disagree.

There are clear cut rights and wrongs in the world.

1. Don't murder.
2. Don't steal with malice.
3. Genocide is wrong.
4. Vandalism and / or harming people with malevolence

And so forth.

These things stated above are in almost everybody's "grain". When people go and do these evil things, it goes aganist the standard "grain".

What relevance does that have to the thread? I didn't deny the existence of the "principles" of right and wrong. I said that I don't see how they're applicable to THIS discussion.

And despite the fact that many people may have similar standards, this does not make those standards inherently "right". Plenty of people in the Muslim world believe in honor killing, for instance. For them, that's part of what's accepted; it's THEIR "grain".

Does that make it "right"? No. It is nothing more than THEIR OPINION of what is right.

NWV thinks that because HE has a problem with something, that HE is on the side of "basic decency". On what authority?

It may very well be the case that in most cultures being a trans-sexual goes against the grain, but it may very well also be the case in most cultures that people don't listen to music played on nose-flutes, and thus that too goes against the grain.

Hey, some people juggle geese. :shrug:


There are clear cut rights and wrongs in the world.

1. Don't murder.
2. Don't steal with malice.
3. Genocide is wrong.
4. Vandalism and / or harming people with malevolence

And so forth.

These things stated above are in almost everybody's "grain". When people go and do these evil things, it goes aganist the standard "grain".


Maybe, but this in no way supports Nazi's claim that being trans 'just ain't right'. Not that I thought you were trying to, just had to point that out.

Actually, there are international standards.

The international community condemned the Holocaust, the 9/11 attacks, Cambodia, Rwanda, and similiar atrocities.


International standards aren't necessarily inclusive of all nations.

....in my opinion..things like those parades screw things up for the gay people who just want to have a normal life like any other person...

Why? Because if we stop shoving it in their faces people will forget we exist and leave us alone? Trust me, it doesn't exactly work like that, and that situation isn't any better. Things like those parades are how gay people got this far in the first place. It's not about a particular group taking pride in their identity and elevating it above other people, it's about groups that have been persecuted celebrating the differences they were hated for to demonstrate that there is nothing wrong with it.

The message in slogans like "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" or "black is beautiful" is to say "I'm proud of who I am, and you can't convince me that there is something wrong with that. If you can't understand and accept who I am, then fuck you too, and I'll keep fighting against your brand of intolerance and hatred."

If people were to put on white pride parades and straight pride parades, yes, I would be angry and offended. I would feel like they were making fun and belittling all of the accomplishments made in the civil rights arena for the last century for the purpose of massaging their own ego or assauging their white guilt. They don't need to parade for awareness and equal rights because they already have them.

After a formerly persecuted group has achieved equality in the eyes of the law, they generally continue activist practices. They take pride not only in their differences, but in their struggle for equal rights, and they don't wan't anyone to forget. It's not all about their ego, though most objections to this behavior are. People feel guilty and inadequate when other people parade their differences and accomplishments. Well get over it.

I can just imagine how many people would be happy to see a "white pride parade" going down the street or a "straight pride parade". A lot of people would find that offensive.
Well duh!

You would be surprised how Liberal I am in other areas, I dont agree with incarceration in a lot of cases for example.

How is that "liberal"?


Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

And I find almost everything you've said in this thread both insulting as well as asinine.

What now?

Although I am not _happy_ at seeing the Orange Lodge march down the street 200 yards from where I live, celebrating their heritage, I do not interfere. I am prepared to do so if they start forcing their values upon me, however. The fact that 99.999% of the culture that they celebrate is both white and heterosexual doesn't disturb me, as such, it is only if they claim to be superior to others or display hostility to them that it gets my goat.

fair enough. But i feel that is there are to be such marches, i'd rather see us celebrating what we have in common, than what is different.

Well duh!

wow! what witty repatee. You must have read the entire conversation I was having with bodies without organs for you to come to such an insightful answer

If someones sex could be changed so fully that they could become the opposite sex, in every biological way. Would you still be against it?

Originally Posted by Nazi Weaponized Virus
Human beings were born as they are, a simple defect of the brain does not mean people should change thier Gender, I find it insulting that these people pass themselves off as women - I find it insulting that as 'women' they try to find men (I wouldn't want to end up by mistake in bed with one of them - would you?) but most of all I find the way our society is moving quicker than public opinion will allow insulting.

But, by that same logic, just because of a defect in the brain, someone should not have a different sexual outlook to the norm (ie heterosexual). and i know you don't think that way.
Fair enough, your flirting with a women, try a grop and grab something slightly different down there, your going to be shocked to say the least.
As it is at the moment, it is comsmetic surgery. If thats what they want, let 'em.

in actuality, one can not change their gender, simply their organs. i know of no way to change an x chromosome to a y, or vice versa. transexuals are just proactive people who believe that they were born into the wrong gender, and just like you would rather wear shoes that are comfortable than the first shoes you see at the store, transexuals perfer to change into what's more comfortable for them. saying that they just do it for attention is a little extreme, as most try their best not to stick out. you get metal spikes grafted onto your skull and yell that everyone is a square for attention, you don't discretely change your sex organs and your name and live on as you had been. but that's just one teenagers opinion.

As... Uneloquent as I can get again....

Thats what people with small cocks say. Simple as that.

Ah good: you can actually see what I'm posting on this thread then.

Post #4 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6760574&postcount=4) - well....?

Ah good: you can actually see what I'm posting on this thread then.

Post #4 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6760574&postcount=4) - well....?

funny, isn't it, how he have been able to ignore almost 10 posts about why he hasn't asnwered one of the very first questions asked to him in this thread? ;)

Well to me, my breast and vagina are a birth defects and prevent me from being truly happy with who I am. I am told that if some one hates something about themselves, they should change it. That is all a sex change operation is, just changing what you hate about your self.

Sex-change surgery is far from perfect. They can graft on a flap of skin, but its just never gonna work right. Everybody has to deal with thing that they do not like about themselves, you can take hormones and have surgery, but is that really going to make you any better off? Hormones most likly have bad side-effects, and surgery is just gross, wouldn't it be better to just figure out a way to live with yourself?

Sex-change surgery is far from perfect. They can graft on a flap of skin, but its just never gonna work right. Everybody has to deal with thing that they do not like about themselves, you can take hormones and have surgery, but is that really going to make you any better off? Hormones most likly have bad side-effects, and surgery is just gross, wouldn't it be better to just figure out a way to live with yourself?

I think that almost everyone who does transition spends years searching, deperatly for a way to be happy with who the are. Hormones and Surgery aren't a first choice. They're a last choice. Usually (as was in my case), it's between giving transtion a chance or suicide.

I ended up trying suicide (obviously failing). It was due to the therapy that I got from that that I ended up getting the help I needed. I'm happy now, I know I'm a freak in many people's eyes. But at least I don't hurt in the way I did before.

You know .... *all* mammals are inheretly female ... it requires a certain hormone introduced at a certain time in order for a mammal to be born male ...

So ... ummm ... I guess all males are transgendered .... go figure.

Yesterday, I wrote a big long post on this thread that unfortunately disappeared into the ether. I took so long writing it that the page timed out, or somesuch thing. I will attempt to cover the same ground in a more efficient way.

Hi there. I am a biological male, who was born with congenital medical 'defects' that weren't detected until I was well into puberty. The nature of my condition was such that I developed secondary sexual characteristics more suited to the female form than to the male (i.e. I grew breasts, did not grow facial/body hair, bodyfats accumulated along endomorphic lines, etc.)

My late parents had surgery performed on me to 'correct' this, a mutilation of sorts, in order to ensure my innate 'maleness'. Ironically, I had, at an earlier age, tried confiding in them that I was not at all comfortable as a 'male', in fact that I truly wished to 'be' female. They too were considered 'liberal' people, but their sense of liberality did not extend to the area of gender identity.

In later years, I developed the tertiary sexual characteristics of a male, and had the amazingly good fortune of encountering a female who was most supportive, and I learned to find comfort 'in my own skin'. We have just celebrated fifteen years together.

This past week, I received an alarmed phone call from my sister-in-law, who was shocked when her son (my nephew) confided in her that he, too wants to be a girl. I was more than happy to provide whatever help & insight she needed in dealing with this issue, whatever the outcome.

Now, is this 'normal'? Was it 'normal' that I should have had to have surgical procedures performed to remain fully 'male'? Is it 'normal' that my nephew should want to be my neice? No- it's not normal. But it is, I believe, understandable.

We may be human beings, but that doesn't remove us from the animal kingdom. We respond to stimuli, we adapt, we evolve, and we change. Look at the lowly amphibian- newts, salamanders, etc. As their environments have become toxified in the last three or four decades, some awfully peculiar things have happened: Existing species have gone extinct, while others have crossbred, resulting in new varities of amphibious life. A large number of these hybrid newts and salamanders are now exclusively female, reproducing via parthinogenesis. This is as a result of the external force of rising toxicity. This is adaptation. This is evolution. This is change. Is it normal? No. But it is survival. And it is understandable.

I've met a number of TG people in my time, and not just M2F, but F2M as well. In fact, I have a cousin who is an F2M TG person. Some of the TG people I've known feel strongly that they represent an emerging '3rd gender', and there may be something to that.

As we become ever more an urban animal, as we continue to live in closer proximity to one another, humanity, as a gestalt entity, must make hard and fast choices to ensure survival of that gestalt entity. There was a time when what was required to survive were strongly dilineated gender roles, with men fit to bursting with testosterone- but men like that are finding it increasingly difficult to integrate into modern, urban living. Men such as this are less prevalent in cities, but continue to flourish in outlying, rural or undeveloped areas.

I'm not saying the days of 'manly men' are coming to an end, just that there seems to be a new balance being struck, just as in nature new balances are being struck, as evidenced by the upheaval in the amphibian kingdom.

So, is it 'normal'? No. Is it understandable? Yes.

I'm troubled by the notion of someone who claims to be a 'liberal', yet cannot find it within themselves to accept the transgendered. NWV, it sounds like you want to have your cake, and eat it, too. If you cannot accept or tolerate a significant minority within your culture, then you cannot claim to be 'liberal'. How can a 'liberal' be intolerant, and unaccepting? By secretly being a bigot, that's how. Except that by publicly announcing your intolerance, you're not being terribly secretive (except insofar as this is a relatively anonymous internet thread, I suppose) either.

Anyway, I think I've rambled more than enough. Just wanted to speak my mind. Thanks for the opportunity to share.

Nicely said Doobs. Its better to get information from a primary source than the ordinary secondary we are used to.

funny, isn't it, how he have been able to ignore almost 10 posts about why he hasn't asnwered one of the very first questions asked to him in this thread? ;)

My evidence is in what I have seen - That most of these people were social outcasts from a young age and suffered from a variety of social disorders such as a bad family. Again this is what I have seen, when I have watched New Reports e.t.c. I have yet to see studies done on the specific topic about attention seeking and if there were, I would gladly use them.

Therefore as a Liberal - I see the solution to this as being curing of social problems such as bad education, bullying, abusive parents e.t.c.

And I *am* one of the most Liberal people on these boards, noth in internal and foreign affairs. Look at what some of the 'Liberal' Americans thing: That there Foreign policy is right fine and dandy and that they wouldn't change it for the world. Ironically this seems to be the case.

You don't know the first thing about transgenderism.

If a bad home environment were the cause of transgenderism, well, we certainly wouldn't be called a minority. I was never bullied, the authority figures in my life were almost always kind, and there was nothing wrong with my education.

And just what is it with you and your anti-Americanism? God, do you honestly think that people don't realize how screwed up America is? Everyone knows how far we've strayed from our ideals. Yeah, we're pretty messed up.

But your attitude towards the people who died on September 11th is contemptable. Killing is never justified, especially the murder of innocents.

Collateral damage. Reasonable response. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6762672#post6762672) You're a monster.

Keep going on about how "liberal" you are. Your politics don't mean anything to me.

You're the attention seeker.

wow! what witty repatee. You must have read the entire conversation I was having with bodies without organs for you to come to such an insightful answer

Yup, sure did. I also gave an in depth answer to an almost identical post, made by OmniCura, directly above where I quote you in my post. Here is the url of my post: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6771213&postcount=228
Please respond to that instead of acting outraged because I shortchanged the originality of your post.

You don't know the first thing about transgenderism.

If a bad home environment were the cause of transgenderism, well, we certainly wouldn't be called a minority. I was never bullied, the authority figures in my life were almost always kind, and there was nothing wrong with my education.

And just what is it with you and your anti-Americanism? God, do you honestly think that people don't realize how screwed up America is? Everyone knows how far we've strayed from our ideals. Yeah, we're pretty messed up.

But your attitude towards the people who died on September 11th is contemptable. Killing is never justified, especially the murder of innocents.

Collateral damage. Reasonable response. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6762672#post6762672) You're a monster.

Keep going on about how "liberal" you are. Your politics don't mean anything to me.

You're the attention seeker.

Simple response - The Pentagon was a military target. The civilians that died were by the logic of the US 'collateral damage', but I do not like using that term as it is a simple buzz word excuse for murder. What is more important is the horrific damage the US has caused around the World - for example Nicaragua - an action deemed illegal by the ICJ and furthered by their comments that equated it to 'international terrorism'. But back to the point at hand, lets use an example, The Iraqi Military Headquarters were bombed, and doubtless people who had nothing to do with military actions were killed. Yet do you think thier families thought 'Well, its collateral damage so we forgive them'? Obviously not, just like you incorrectly believe the Pentagon attack was different. And whats more, The Pentagon attack was also justified by the enforcing of US hegemony in parts of The Arab world preivously - just ofr one example - The Al-Shifa bombing.

So think before you write.

My evidence is in what I have seen - That most of these people were social outcasts from a young age and suffered from a variety of social disorders such as a bad family.

Therefore as a Liberal - I see the solution to this as being curing of social problems such as bad education, bullying, abusive parents e.t.c.


Lets have a look at what you originally said:

Yet I hate Transexuals - Its not so much that I hate them but what the represent, the desire to be different, not the desire to different that some people have by listening to different music or wearing different clothes (something that is harmless).


So why did you say that you hated what you believe Transgenders stand for, instead of the forces that you believed created them? In fact, it should be noted that your initial post declares hatred against TGs and their desires, whereas your recent post makes no declaration of emotional involvement. Are we to take it that you don't actually mind bullying, poor education, abusive parents, etc., unless they lead to transsexuals?

What you have just claimed and what you originally claimed are two very different things. In your initial post it was the 'desire to be different' that you hated, not the TGs themselves or the forces that (may) have created them.

You still haven't answered whether you hate the 'desire to be different' in non-transexual individuals.

It is also totally unclear from your description of the 'causes' as you perceive them whether these are in fact the causes or the effects: do TGs come into being as a result of being social outcasts, or does their status as social outcasts spring from them feeling themselves to be TGs?

You still haven't answered whether you hate the 'desire to be different' in non-transexual individuals.


Thats a ridiculous question, as parralels cant be drawn (as I have said) between somebody who wishes to dress differently, and somebody who wishes to change thier gender, they are both different 'desires' and one is not as extreme as the other.

Its all about where you draw the line. I draw it with transgenders.

You twit. Read my post. I said killing is never justified.

You think I approve of America's actions? Absolutely not. I'm ashamed of the things my government has done in the world.

But that doesn't mean it's okay to turn around and do it back to American civilians. That's not justice. It's revenge and fanaticism. Revenge and fanaticism are never right.

You kill my brother, I kill your brother, you kill my mother, I kill your mother, you kill my father, I kill your father. Where does it stop? And you seem to think it's perfectly alright. That's disgusting.

My evidence is in what I have seen - That most of these people were social outcasts from a young age and suffered from a variety of social disorders such as a bad family. Again this is what I have seen, when I have watched New Reports e.t.c. I have yet to see studies done on the specific topic about attention seeking and if there were, I would gladly use them.

Therefore as a Liberal - I see the solution to this as being curing of social problems such as bad education, bullying, abusive parents e.t.c.

And I *am* one of the most Liberal people on these boards, noth in internal and foreign affairs. Look at what some of the 'Liberal' Americans thing: That there Foreign policy is right fine and dandy and that they wouldn't change it for the world. Ironically this seems to be the case.

Actually, with this post you don't get much closer to answer the question I refered to.

Anyway, in the first paragraph I assume you are talking about transgenders? You say your evidence is what you have seen. How many transgender persons have you actually followed from "young age" up to and past the surgery? Or what exacly what do you mean with what you "have seen"?

And in the last paragraph by saying "I *am* one of the most Liberal people on these boards", you come off as one of those Christian semi-fanatics on this boards, tbh. Atleast if you ask me. Id don't see you as very liberal, as do quite a few others. Conclusion, you are prolly not among the most liberal people on these boards. Screaming something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Its all about where you draw the line. I draw it with transgenders.

Two questions:

1.) Do any other groups fall on the same side of your line of unacceptibility as transgenders?

2.) Do you have any grounds for declaring that those who fall on that side of the line of unacceptibility are actually doing something wrong, other than the fact that they irritate you/invoke your hatred?