NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/downloader.asp?file=/downloads/cj_36814.wmv


that's sick


What do you want in a country where a chicken has to cost less then a pack of cigarettes...

join peta cuz no one cares

join peta cuz no one cares

apathy is so mature. I'm a vegetarian - I prefer to err on the side of mercy...and health...and economics...and environmentalism...and logic in general.

join peta cuz no one cares


Join them yourselves, I am a carnivore :sniper: But I eat quality not your industrial Mc Crap :rolleyes:

Join them yourselves, I am a carnivore :sniper: But I eat quality not your industrial Mc Crap :rolleyes:

you'd be dead if you were a carnivore, you are an omnivore. just how does one have quality charred-corpse-of-bird?

apathy is so mature. I'm a vegetarian - I prefer to err on the side of mercy...and health...and economics...and environmentalism...and logic in general.
then you must be working on infamous swiss cheese logic

I take a middle ground, I will only eat fresh game meat, fish or "range" chickens and the like. The other stuff is crap and I sure as hell what never eat in any fast food "restaurent"

"fast food, short life"

then you must be working on infamous swiss cheese logic

guess what the leading cause of death in the US is? heart problems - the leading cause of heart problems? the american diet - which is full of meat. There's no cholesterol, and little fat in a vegan diet. The US government has issued reports that say the meat industry is the most polluting in the country - and we annually feed enough grain to cattle to meet the caloric needs of 7 billion people. There are people starving, and we're turning enough food to feed the world into cow shit. try actually refuting what someone says instead of baseless accusations next time, ok?

guess what the leading cause of death in the US is? heart problems - the leading cause of heart problems? the american diet - which is full of meat. There's no cholesterol, and little fat in a vegan diet. The US government has issued reports that say the meat industry is the most polluting in the country - and we annually feed enough grain to cattle to meet the caloric needs of 7 billion people. There are people starving, and we're turning enough food to feed the world into cow shit. try actually refuting what someone says instead of baseless accusations next time, ok?
like i said, swiss cheese logic

you start out ok
leading cause of death > heart problems > leading cause of heart problems > american diet

and then you screw up

you blame a bad american diet on eating meat


its not what is consumed, its the amount that it is consumed, without the excercise to back it up and work it off.

if you eat the correct proportions of meat and excercise you will be fine

now on the other hand, if your avegetarian or vegan you get whiny and forego all meat by swiss cheese logic.
the very proof that this is wrong is that these people have to take vitamin tablets to get just necesary vitamins and proteins and the like

like i said, swiss cheese logic

you start out ok
leading cause of death > heart problems > leading cause of heart problems > american diet

and then you screw up

you blame a bad american diet on eating meat


its not what is consumed, its the amount that it is consumed, without the excercise to back it up and work it off.

if you eat the correct proportions of meat and excercise you will be fine

now on the other hand, if your avegetarian or vegan you get whiny and forego all meat by swiss cheese logic.
the very proof that this is wrong is that these people have to take vitamin tablets to get just necesary vitamins and proteins and the like

...no they don't. there is more iron in spinach than in actual meat, more calcium in leafy greens than milk - better protein in beans and the like than meat - a vegan can get every nutrient he or she needs from plant sources only. Most don't bother, as suppliments are easier, but it can be done.

Our teeth are not carnivoric...look at a dog's teeth - do you have fangs? Our stomach acid is about 1/20th the strength of true carnivore's - we can't handle raw meat, and lastly - our digestive system is 6 times the length of the average carnivores - vegetarians have a significantly lower risk of colon cancer (and just about every other kind), because they don't have rotting beef in our intestines. The majority of humankind for the majority of history has been vegetarian.

At any rate, I suppose you're going to ignore the starving masses? that was a large part of the logic as well...as far as "swiss cheese" goes...I think the term you're searching for is "aristotelian", or perhaps "impeccable"

...no they don't. there is more iron in spinach than in actual meat, more calcium in leafy greens than milk - better protein in beans and the like than meat - a vegan can get every nutrient he or she needs from plant sources only. Most don't bother, as suppliments are easier, but it can be done.

Our teeth are not carnivoric...look at a dog's teeth - do you have fangs? Our stomach acid is about 1/20th the strength of true carnivore's - we can't handle raw meat, and lastly - our digestive system is 6 times the length of the average carnivores - vegetarians have a significantly lower risk of colon cancer (and just about every other kind), because they don't have rotting beef in our intestines. The majority of humankind for the majority of history has been vegetarian.

At any rate, I suppose you're going to ignore the starving masses? that was a large part of the logic as well...as far as "swiss cheese" goes...I think the term you're searching for is "aristotelian", or perhaps "impeccable"

analysis of teeth: front few teeth are made for cutting, teeth next to them are the equivolent of fangs, back teeth are for grinding

and where is your proof to back up that statement about vegetarianism you probably stole off PETA's website

now im going for swiss cheese, you know, with holes in the logic

and didnt you jsut point out that humans are omnivores, not carnivores OR herbivores

Thats the beauty of freedom...

We can ALL eat what we please and if we eat too much we shorten our lifespan.

Me? I eat ONE meal a day. I do snack, but I eat one actual meal a day. I have a cholestoral number of 120 and a resting heart rate of 44. I DO NOT exersise anymore, but did run 6 miles a day for 14 years.

I weigh a whopping 155 pounds and will probably weigh this for life. I eat both meat and vegetables in plenty when I do eat. Also fresh fruit every day.

Is this something I would recommend for others? Not necessarily. I eat when i feel hungry and I stop when I feel full.

As for the mistreatment of animals, i don't like that, it is unnecessary.

This argument about killing animals and that it is cruel and unjust and not needed......I guess then we should stop Lions eating Gazelles? Or perhaps we should stop birds of prey eating rabbits? Hell, maybe we should just ban any other living thing from eating anything that is alive?

Oh wait....it's ok for the Lion to do it because thats nature at work.....and it's acceptable for a bird of prey to do it, because....wow Birds of prey are soooo amazing and oh look! it's torn that rabbit to tiny pieces! but awwwww aint nature great!

Are you getting what I'm saying here?

bears are also omnivorous

teeth design: several cutting teeth, 4 canines some false molars and more true molars, since they are more canivrous they lose the false molars

wow, that sounds like OUR teeth

bear intestines: small intestine longer than true carnivores and tract lacks the features of true herbivores

you want to try and argue some more or you going to be quiet

I take a middle ground, I will only eat fresh game meat, fish or "range" chickens and the like. The other stuff is crap and I sure as hell what never eat in any fast food "restaurent"

"fast food, short life"

That is exactly what I mean. I eat perhaps 3 days meat in a week 1 or 2 days fish and/or 1 or 2 days without meat/fish: pesto for example and other italian food is great.

When I eat meat it is organic or raised by neighbours (I live in the Alps) in our clean mountains. Those animals have a good life and lots of space.
People like Chess Squares seem to like and promote Mc Crap. Problem with that kind of people whit no money or brains to afford quality is that the MC Crap and Industrial food continue to weaken their brain. In fact they lack healthy food to feed their smallbrain. :)

join peta cuz no one cares

says enough :rolleyes:

analysis of teeth: front few teeth are made for cutting, teeth next to them are the equivolent of fangs, back teeth are for grinding

and where is your proof to back up that statement about vegetarianism you probably stole off PETA's website

now im going for swiss cheese, you know, with holes in the logic

and didnt you jsut point out that humans are omnivores, not carnivores OR herbivores

...I just gave about 20 statements about vegetarianism, I have no idea which one you're referring to, and I haven't been to PETA's website but twice, months ago, and none of what I've written is from them. I pointed out that that specific individual was an omnivore, as it is impossible to live on meat alone - people have lived long and healthy lives as complete vegetarians.

This argument about killing animals and that it is cruel and unjust and not needed......I guess then we should stop Lions eating Gazelles? Or perhaps we should stop birds of prey eating rabbits? Hell, maybe we should just ban any other living thing from eating anything that is alive?

Oh wait....it's ok for the Lion to do it because thats nature at work.....and it's acceptable for a bird of prey to do it, because....wow Birds of prey are soooo amazing and oh look! it's torn that rabbit to tiny pieces! but awwwww aint nature great!

Are you getting what I'm saying here?

yes, I'd love to see you chase down a gazelle, skin it with your fingernails, and eat it raw. go for it, you'd be puking in minutes (as if you would be capable of getting far enough to puke) - entirely without technology, humans do not eat meat - as they can't stomach raw meat. Of course, rape and genocide are entirely natural as well, so I don't see how the "natural" argument means anything at all.

WHO CARES!
Chicken Rocks!
PETA is a bunch of morons.

And my fav qoute.

" For every animal you don't eat I'm going to eat 3"

And my fav qoute.

" For every animal you don't eat I'm going to eat 3" :p Good one! But like said eat quality!

That is exactly what I mean. I eat perhaps 3 days meat in a week 1 or 2 days fish and/or 1 or 2 days without meat/fish: pesto for example and other italian food is great.

When I eat meat it is organic or raised by neighbours (I live in the Alps) in our clean mountains. Those animals have a good life and lots of space.
People like Chess Squares seem to like and promote Mc Crap. Problem with that kind of people whit no money or brains to afford quality is that the MC Crap and Industrial food continue to weaken their brain. In fact they lack healthy food to feed their smallbrain. :)
ok captain oblivious, where did i even suggest i was promoting fast food? the only thing i said that wasnt arguing with the ignorant vegetarian is no oen cares

why dont you go away and join peta, maybe you can get arrested at an assembly gone too far

Ok then.....

The majority of humanity has been vegetarian for the majority of its existence? I beg of you PLEASE try to back that up. Early humans lived primarily as scavengers, and we had organs that were made SPECIFICLY for the digestion of raw meat. Meat was a staple of all diets, of nearly all cultures since the beggining of recorded history and I challenge you to find significant proof against that.

WHO CARES!
Chicken Rocks!
PETA is a bunch of morons.

And my fav qoute.

" For every animal you don't eat I'm going to eat 3"

the logic in your post was stunning! lets try to think of other great examples of when people say "who cares?" and kill living beings? hmmm, slavery? gladitorial games? People who protested these in their own time were ridiculed, but looking back we're appalled that anyone could even consider allowing them to happen. what justifies eating animals? is it because they're different in body structure? (you don't eat africans or asians...do you?), because they're stupid? (do you eat mentally retarded people?), or because god says you're better than them? THAT argument holds alot of water...the only other possibility is that you're just assuming you're completely superior to other beings with no reason. if you'd like to continue this debate I'd invite you all to http://www.thewolfatyourdoor.tk/ to post in the forums there, I'm not going to respond to anything else as I'm going to bed - feel free to stop by the site (it's not a vegetarian site, the makers just happen to be vegan and allways up for a debate - most of the site is devoted to art at the moment)

...I just gave about 20 statements about vegetarianism, I have no idea which one you're referring to, and I haven't been to PETA's website but twice, months ago, and none of what I've written is from them. I pointed out that that specific individual was an omnivore, as it is impossible to live on meat alone - people have lived long and healthy lives as complete vegetarians.
you were sitting there saying people wernt carnivores and touting the greatness of vegetarians, you were pointing out how peopelw ernt carnivores by pointing to the digestive system

i come back and counter you with the fact you ALREADT STATED that we are omnivored then provide you wit examples of our systme compared ot OTHER omnivores and you change your story

Ok then.....

The majority of humanity has been vegetarian for the majority of its existence? I beg of you PLEASE try to back that up. Early humans lived primarily as scavengers, and we had organs that were made SPECIFICLY for the digestion of raw meat. Meat was a staple of all diets, of nearly all cultures since the beggining of recorded history and I challenge you to find significant proof against that.

in most societies throughout history meat has been too expensive for regular consumption. I was talking civilization not scavengers, I don't deny our ancestors probably picked rotting flesh from warm corpses every now and then for some protein - they probably ate grubs too - most people wouldn't do that now. I was thinking societies like ancient egypt, china, mesopotamia, and the western world. Meat is rarity even today in 3rd world countries - which are a fairly accurate window into the past.

the logic in your post was stunning! lets try to think of other great examples of when people say "who cares?" and kill living beings? hmmm, slavery? gladitorial games? People who protested these in their own time were ridiculed, but looking back we're appalled that anyone could even consider allowing them to happen. what justifies eating animals? is it because they're different in body structure? (you don't eat africans or asians...do you?), because they're stupid? (do you eat mentally retarded people?), or because god says you're better than them? THAT argument holds alot of water...the only other possibility is that you're just assuming you're completely superior to other beings with no reason. if you'd like to continue this debate I'd invite you all to http://www.thewolfatyourdoor.tk/ to post in the forums there, I'm not going to respond to anything else as I'm going to bed - feel free to stop by the site (it's not a vegetarian site, the makers just happen to be vegan and allways up for a debate - most of the site is devoted to art at the moment)


*very sarcastic post* I don't eat the mentally challenged people but I do eat handicaps. The hardest part about that though is the wheelchairs

you were sitting there saying people wernt carnivores and touting the greatness of vegetarians, you were pointing out how peopelw ernt carnivores by pointing to the digestive system

i come back and counter you with the fact you ALREADT STATED that we are omnivored then provide you wit examples of our systme compared ot OTHER omnivores and you change your story

I stated that one person was an omnivore. I've allready pointed this out to you.

*very sarcastic post* I don't eat the mentally challenged people but I do eat handicaps. The hardest part about that though is the wheelchairs

you should go for the ones with crutches.

the logic in your post was stunning! lets try to think of other great examples of when people say "who cares?" and kill living beings? hmmm, slavery? gladitorial games? People who protested these in their own time were ridiculed, but looking back we're appalled that anyone could even consider allowing them to happen. what justifies eating animals? is it because they're different in body structure? (you don't eat africans or asians...do you?), because they're stupid? (do you eat mentally retarded people?), or because god says you're better than them? THAT argument holds alot of water...the only other possibility is that you're just assuming you're completely superior to other beings with no reason. if you'd like to continue this debate I'd invite you all to http://www.thewolfatyourdoor.tk/ to post in the forums there, I'm not going to respond to anything else as I'm going to bed - feel free to stop by the site (it's not a vegetarian site, the makers just happen to be vegan and allways up for a debate - most of the site is devoted to art at the moment)

PETA is a hardcore group that i too far out, they are zealots and not sane

and i would love to go argue with some idiot vegans, they are nuttier than normal vegetarians

and you were the one stating also like said that people have been mostly vegetarian which is an out and out lie looks like you quoted straight from some vegetarian site

you should go for the ones with crutches.


I knew I was doing something wrong :)

PETA is a hardcore group that i too far out, they are zealots and not sane

and i would love to go argue with some idiot vegans, they are nuttier than normal vegetarians

and you were the one stating also like said that people have been mostly vegetarian which is an out and out lie looks like you quoted straight from some vegetarian site

...more along the lines of "the ancient history of western civilization" - I didn't mean to imply they were ethically vegetarians - but most people for most of their life have been vegetarian. I'd imagine they'd eat meat whenever possible - but most people have relied on non-meat food sources most of the time. You still haven't addressed the world hunger issue.

in most societies throughout history meat has been too expensive for regular consumption. I was talking civilization not scavengers, I don't deny our ancestors probably picked rotting flesh from warm corpses every now and then for some protein - they probably ate grubs too - most people wouldn't do that now. I was thinking societies like ancient egypt, china, mesopotamia, and the western world. Meat is rarity even today in 3rd world countries - which are a fairly accurate window into the past.
ignorant, our system is made for omnivorous consumption of food, ergo its made for eating meat and plants, whether or not those are available. if our system were made for consuming only plants we would have an herbivorian digestive tract, which you failed to point out we dont have when saying we dont have a carnivorous digestive tract

PETA is a hardcore group that i too far out, they are zealots and not sane

and i would love to go argue with some idiot vegans, they are nuttier than normal vegetarians

and you were the one stating also like said that people have been mostly vegetarian which is an out and out lie looks like you quoted straight from some vegetarian site

by the way, the idiot comment was entirely uncalled for. don't you find it a BIT unnerving to be mocking people for caring about innocent and helpless victims? even if you don't agree that it's wrong - I sincerely hope you can at least understand the sentiment.

Do you guys even see what you are arguing about? Chickens are good to eat, but they should not be tormented, thats just cruel.

I stated that one person was an omnivore. I've allready pointed this out to you.
in all honesty thats one of the dumbest attempts at covering your ass i've ever seen

ignorant, our system is made for omnivorous consumption of food, ergo its made for eating meat and plants, whether or not those are available. if our system were made for consuming only plants we would have an herbivorian digestive tract, which you failed to point out we dont have when saying we dont have a carnivorous digestive tract

Meat eating was (probably) the catalyst that caused our evolution from earlier forms into homo sapiens. I'm not saying that we aren't somewhat adapted to occasional meat eating - I'm just saying that for numerous reasons, vegetarianism makes more sense.

and i would love to go argue with some idiot vegans, they are nuttier than normal vegetarians

You rang, my Lord?






(Vegan since 1989)

by the way, the idiot comment was entirely uncalled for. don't you find it a BIT unnerving to be mocking people for caring about innocent and helpless victims? even if you don't agree that it's wrong - I sincerely hope you can at least understand the sentiment.
i know full well how PETA acts

and i think vegans are ignorant with their swiss cheese logic

Do you guys even see what you are arguing about? Chickens are good to eat, but they should not be tormented, thats just cruel.
we arnt on that any more

in all honesty thats one of the dumbest attempts at covering your ass i've ever seen

That was uncalled for and I (obviously) don't agree. Shall we move on to the world hunger issue? people are starving - the population is growing, and our food supply could be made vastly more efficient by cutting out the middle section of livestock in the production process. we don't NEED meat by any means, but people do need food - which is being diverted into meat to suit a cultural preference.

...more along the lines of "the ancient history of western civilization" - I didn't mean to imply they were ethically vegetarians - but most people for most of their life have been vegetarian. I'd imagine they'd eat meat whenever possible - but most people have relied on non-meat food sources most of the time. You still haven't addressed the world hunger issue.


I'll address it. The USA has more than enough stored grain in its reserves to feed everyone in the USA for 5 years. By law they cannot just give the food away. Remember what is mostly feed to cattle is hay with some grains mixed in. :) So the US alone might be able to feed the world for a year.


*edited not to offend farmers* :)

ok captain oblivious, where did i even suggest i was promoting fast food? the only thing i said that wasnt arguing with the ignorant vegetarian is no oen cares

why dont you go away and join peta, maybe you can get arrested at an assembly gone too far


You continue to make a fool from yourself, that is nice, to many hamburgers?
Who said I am a vegitarian, can't you read?
Who said a thing about your Peta (you), that product or organisation does not exist here.

Please do continue, you are so funny and you are for free (but I wan't to give you some cash so you buy/ taste quality :p

You rang, my Lord?






(Vegan since 1989)

go to http://www.thewolfatyourdoor.tk/ I doubt we'll need you, but we'll probably like you.

i know full well how PETA acts

and i think vegans are ignorant with their swiss cheese logic

By eating bad meat your brain looks like a Swiss cheese, we call that Creutzfeld Jacob and I am sure you have it.... :p

Meat eating was (probably) the catalyst that caused our evolution from earlier forms into homo sapiens. I'm not saying that we aren't somewhat adapted to occasional meat eating - I'm just saying that for numerous reasons, vegetarianism makes more sense.
lets just keep ignoring the point, the body was designed for an omnivorous diet, debate over.

By eating bad meat your brain looks like a Swiss cheese, we call that Creutzfeld Jacob and I am sure you have it.... :p

ohhhhhhhhh now that was a torching there :)

That was uncalled for and I (obviously) don't agree. Shall we move on to the world hunger issue? people are starving - the population is growing, and our food supply could be made vastly more efficient by cutting out the middle section of livestock in the production process. we don't NEED meat by any means, but people do need food - which is being diverted into meat to suit a cultural preference.
you pretend all livestock is fed grain and whats more, you pretend there is livestock in third world countries fed grain
if any third world country has livestock the chance they are fed grain is slim to NONE. they would eat grass, you know what they would eat anyway if the first world countries were not intentionally fattening them up

your argument is blind to obvious facts and realities

go to http://www.thewolfatyourdoor.tk/ I doubt we'll need you, but we'll probably like you.

That website doesn't seem to be reachable right now.

There seems a strange reluctance on the part of the omnivores and carnivores to attack me for my dietary habits: maybe I should see if I can stir up some kind of reaction... hmm.

"It is entirely possible within the 'western world'* to switch to a diet free of animal produce at little or no greater expense than eating an omnivorous diet, and there appears to be no decline in health caused by long term veganism provided that one eats sensibly."


* for want of a better term.

lets just keep ignoring the point, the body was designed for an omnivorous diet, debate over.

Who designed the human body?

It has also evolved with either free-will or the perception (possibly mistaken) of free-will, and as such we as individuals can chose to eat diets which do not contain animal products (baring statistically inavoidable accidental contamination).

lets just keep ignoring the point, the body was designed for an omnivorous diet, debate over.

erm, designed? who's designing your body? again, what is natural has little to nothing to do with what is right. Rape is the standard means of reproduction in the animal kingdom - genocide and brutal, baseless killing are frequent - and animals have no concept of morality. Biology has nothing to do with the moral right

Who designed the human body?


Why the mysterious invaders from space hunter m of course

*being serious* Depends what your beliefs are.

ohhhhhhhhh now that was a torching there :)


He asked for it by atacking you friendly vegies (I respect them a lot) And he used "Swiss cheese"

Again he does not know a lot about good food since there are only 2 of the more then 300 Swiss cheese sorts with holes in it.

You continue to make a fool from yourself, that is nice, to many hamburgers?
Who said I am a vegitarian, can't you read?
Who said a thing about your Peta (you), that product or organisation does not exist here.

Please do continue, you are so funny and you are for free (but I wan't to give you some cash so you buy/ taste quality :p
all you do is attack me, at least i throw in facts and points

and should i give you an outline of the latest PETA event?

Rape is the standard means of reproduction in the animal kingdom

This I do not agree with, by any stretch of the imagination.

Why the mysterious invaders from space hunter m of course

*being serious* Depends what your beliefs are.

Well, as I added in an edit to my post, if we were 'designed' we also appear to be 'designed' with free will, and the choice not to subsist on an omnivorous diet.

That website doesn't seem to be reachable right now.

There seems a strange reluctance on the part of the omnivores and carnivores to attack me for my dietary habits: maybe I should see if I can stir up some kind of reaction... hmm.

"It is entirely possible within the 'western world'* to switch to a diet free of animal produce at little or no greater expense than eating an omnivorous diet, and there appears to be no decline in health caused by long term veganism provided that one eats sensibly."


* for want of a better term.
that quote holds true for any diet

This I do not agree with, by any stretch of the imagination.

it's certainly more frequent than in humanity (I beleive/hope)...no I suppose it's not universal, but I seem to remember a bunch of nature shows showing females running from males as the typical mating behavior of a great many species.

all you do is attack me, at least i throw in facts and points

and should i give you an outline of the latest PETA event?


Sorry boy watch your first post on page 1, or did your mother used the keyboard. Stop weaping everybody can read what you posted and who started being rude:YOU (evidence on page 1, post 2 and others)

He asked for it by atacking you friendly vegies (I respect them a lot) And he used "Swiss cheese"

Again he does not know a lot about good food since there are only 2 of the more then 300 Swiss cheese sorts with holes in it.


It was really funny since most of you are being polite :)

Who designed the human body?

It has also evolved with either free-will or the perception (possibly mistaken) of free-will, and as such we as individuals can chose to eat diets which do not contain animal products (baring statistically inavoidable accidental contamination).
this is NOT a religion discussion, it is foolish of you to try and make it one

this is a discussion of more science: the way the digestive tract is laid out: design of the teeth, intestines stomach etc; an omnivorous diet is obviously prepared for

erm, designed? who's designing your body? again, what is natural has little to nothing to do with what is right. Rape is the standard means of reproduction in the animal kingdom - genocide and brutal, baseless killing are frequent - and animals have no concept of morality. Biology has nothing to do with the moral right
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MORALITY OR RELIGION OR ANYTHING

we are talking about biological construction of the human body

this is NOT a religion discussion, it is foolish of you to try and make it one

this is a discussion of more science: the way the digestive tract is laid out: design of the teeth, intestines stomach etc; an omnivorous diet is obviously prepared for

this is a question of morality, science was a backup (I do beleive it still backs me up, but it isn't anything close to the most important reason I'm vegetarian...it had nothing to do with my conversion)

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MORALITY OR RELIGION OR ANYTHING

we are talking about biological construction of the human body

the title of this thread is "ABUSE"...that is not a scientific term - it is a moral term.

this is NOT a religion discussion, it is foolish of you to try and make it one

this is a discussion of more science: the way the digestive tract is laid out: design of the teeth, intestines stomach etc; an omnivorous diet is obviously prepared for


I really don't think they are trying to make it into a religous discussion. They are just stating their opinion.

Sorry boy watch your first post on page 1, or did your mother used the keyboard. Stop weaping everybody can read what you posted and who started being rude:YOU (evidence on page 1, post 2 and others)
and lets reference all of my posts together and all of yours together, see who has the most facts included

He asked for it by atacking you friendly vegies (I respect them a lot) And he used "Swiss cheese"

Again he does not know a lot about good food since there are only 2 of the more then 300 Swiss cheese sorts with holes in it.

I certainly prefer the kind of omnivorism you described to american factory farms, allthough personally I wouldn't choose that either. I'd definately rather be a swiss cow/pig/whatever than an american animal.

and lets reference all of my posts together and all of yours together, see who has the most facts included

....and then see who has the most relevent facts included. allthough I'm not particularly interested in statistical analysis at the moment.

this is a question of morality, science was a backup (I do beleive it still backs me up, but it isn't anything close to the most important reason I'm vegetarian...it had nothing to do with my conversion)
i am not tlaking about the damn chicken incident, i am talkngi about the ocmposure of the body, it is NOT a moral argument, for you to say it is proves we arnt even on the same page, hell not even the same book

and lets reference all of my posts together and all of yours together, see who has the most facts included


You really are not consistent, first you ask why, Then I give you the answer and now you are looking for it else? Childish, just mind your tone/tongue when you jump in and I won't ridiculise you. ;)

i am not tlaking about the damn chicken incident, i am talkngi about the ocmposure of the body, it is NOT a moral argument, for you to say it is proves we arnt even on the same page, hell not even the same book

apperently not. we are, however, on the same thread, and this thread is about a moral question. We'd be delighted if you would join us on the correct page, I'm sure.

I really don't think they are trying to make it into a religous discussion. They are just stating their opinion.
wrong, this has turned from a discussion about abuse of chickens into the biology of the human body and vegetarianism, they are trying to carry over the morality of the first issue into the latter issues.

this is not a morality issue, it is bio one

I certainly prefer the kind of omnivorism you described to american factory farms, allthough personally I wouldn't choose that either. I'd definately rather be a swiss cow/pig/whatever than an american animal.


There is nothing wrong with being an American Animal if you are on the small family owned farms. Farmers don't abuse their livestock from what I have seen and heard. It is when you expose the big factory farms where the problems seem to occur. There is something in the USA called the FFA. Which is the Future Farmers of America. They really care about all aspects of the farming life. Now I'm am not saying that there are not farmers that punch their cows or worse because I am sure it happens no matter what country you are in. Face it. I have punched a cow in the shoulder before, but that was after it kicked me when I walked right behind it while it was hooked up to a milking machine.

....and then see who has the most relevent facts included. allthough I'm not particularly interested in statistical analysis at the moment.
he fact is he has not stated any facts while i sit here throwing biological facts at you which you then pretend arnt relevant in an argument about how the body is designed

apperently not. we are, however, on the same thread, and this thread is about a moral question. We'd be delighted if you would join us on the correct page, I'm sure.
BUT we are not on the original topic: that being cruelty to animals, we have PROGRESSED PAST that issue and at the moment are discussing how the body is set up for omnivorous consumption of food, just admit that and i will go away and check the other thread to argue with neo cons

I certainly prefer the kind of omnivorism you described to american factory farms, allthough personally I wouldn't choose that either. I'd definately rather be a swiss cow/pig/whatever than an american animal.

Off course, I eat meat and I just think that each animal should have a a good "animalwurthy" life. My girlfriend does not eat "animal baby" so I don't buy it but that does not stop me eating lamb in a restaurant. I try to buy meat from the region or my neighbours and most products i buy come from the region or are organic. I don't say all, but mostly.

BTW I am not Swiss or do live there, the Alps are larger then that.

Some posters know me under my older nation that I lost because I forgot the vacation mode: SILLY MOUNTAIN WALKS while on expedition in the Caucasus (Mt Elbruz) with clients in may/june.

Abuse of chickens is wrong plain and simple. I'm sure it happens in every country. Is it really a moral issue or is it a common sense issue?

There is nothing wrong with being an American Animal if you are on the small family owned farms. Farmers don't abuse their livestock from what I have seen and heard. It is when you expose the big factory farms where the problems seem to occur. There is something in the USA called the FFA. Which is the Future Farmers of America. They really care about all aspects of the farming life. Now I'm am not saying that there are not farmers that punch their cows or worse because I am sure it happens no matter what country you are in. Face it. I have punched a cow in the shoulder before, but that was after it kicked me when I walked right behind it while it was hooked up to a milking machine.

no offense, but I'd kick you too, if you hooked me up to a milking machine. At any rate, statistically speaking I'm reasonably sure that factory farms are responsible for the vast majority of american animal products (They are, after all, FACTORY farms). If you care about the treatment of animals at all, I don't see how you can stomach eating them - but I suppose having a relatively good life before you're murdered is better than living in a concrete pen until you're murdered. *shrug* neither appeals much to me.

Ok... So, let me get my facts straight, I share this planet with most of your zealots? No onwder it's going to hell in a hand basket!

Yes, I'm a vegetarian, but no, I don't give a damn about animal rights.

If the meat-eaters want to poison their bodies with the amounts of cholesterol found in meat (yes, believe it or not, it is even found in quality meat; the protein in meat, even quality meat, isn't as healthy as the protein in in say, say chick peas and other beans), then who am I to complain? After all, it doesn't directly affect me. Besides, it was my choice to not eat meat, so what do I care if others eat meat?

So, I ask everyone else, so, a few chickens are abused, how does that actuallt personally affect you? And what does it matter if you're a vegetarian or a meat-eater?

Remember what is mostly feed to cattle is hay with some grains mixed in.

this brings to mind an argument that always confused me (if you can shed some light on it … )

1 “Cattle and meat razing is inefficient … so much grain goes into them for the output, we could just feed people with grain” now if we were talking strait grain going in … yes

But a majority of cattle are free range. They sit and eat grass in pasture land. Only time they are usually fed anything besides that is (up in Minnesota here) it gets cold out and snows … then they have to be kept inside

So really they are not using up much for the output of arable land (unless you wanted to take out the grassland that they are using for grazing … usual woods and lake shore and the like … and turn that into fields) (percentage increases in colder climate up here where winter is longer) … though cattle are also fed alfalfa … which is actually a VERY good crop to have (not really a crop … they just more sprinkle seed on a field that they are going to keep empty) they do this because even with crop rotation the fields “wear down” so they let it grow grass and alfalfa.

So basically what I am saying is yeah they are inefficient … but at least around here they survive on plants and land that would have to be essentially left much as they were anyways (so no real increase in production around here if we didn’t have cattle)

Also you are talking strait grain output (for efficiency)… (things like wheat and corn are very efficient) BUT we can not survive on wheat alone … the other plants we need to make a viable diet are not always as efficient (or easy) to cultivate

By the time all the different things that are needed in your diet are found it really is not all that much to raise cattle

(now I realize that cattle razing is done differently everywhere and not always like it is on small farms) but really around here cows are more “grass scavengers” LOL


Just never got the argument when they were comparing to shear grain output

Off course, I eat meat and I just think that each animal should have a a good "animalwurthy" life. My girlfriend does not eat "animal baby" so I don't buy it but that does not stop me eating lamb in a restaurant. I try to buy meat from the region or my neighbours and most products i buy come from the region or are organic. I don't say all, but mostly.

BTW I am not Swiss or do live there, the Alps are larger then that.

Some posters know me under my older nation that I lost because I forgot the vacation mode: SILLY MOUNTAIN WALKS while on expedition in the Caucasus (Mt Elbruz) with clients in may/june.

oh, forgive me, I was assuming since you were apperently quite knowledgable about swiss cheese - I'm aware the alps aren't entirely contained in switzerland, forgive an ignorant american ?

Ok... So, let me get my facts straight, I share this planet with most of your zealots? No onwder it's going to hell in a hand basket!

Yes, I'm a vegetarian, but no, I don't give a damn about animal rights.

If the meat-eaters want to poison their bodies with the amounts of cholesterol found in meat (yes, believe it or not, it is even found in quality meat; the protein in meat, even quality meat, isn't as healthy as the protein in in say, say chick peas and other beans), then who am I to complain? After all, it doesn't directly affect me. Besides, it was my choice to not eat meat, so what do I care if others eat meat?

So, I ask everyone else, so, a few chickens are abused, how does that actuallt personally affect you? And what does it matter if you're a vegetarian or a meat-eater?
so do bugs, more protein per oucne than meat, probably your beas, go eat some bugs

Ok... So, let me get my facts straight, I share this planet with most of your zealots? No onwder it's going to hell in a hand basket!

Yes, I'm a vegetarian, but no, I don't give a damn about animal rights.

If the meat-eaters want to poison their bodies with the amounts of cholesterol found in meat (yes, believe it or not, it is even found in quality meat; the protein in meat, even quality meat, isn't as healthy as the protein in in say, say chick peas and other beans), then who am I to complain? After all, it doesn't directly affect me. Besides, it was my choice to not eat meat, so what do I care if others eat meat?

So, I ask everyone else, so, a few chickens are abused, how does that actuallt personally affect you? And what does it matter if you're a vegetarian or a meat-eater?

I vew the entire universe as an extension of myself - and as such to abuse an animal is to abuse myself. There are ancient philosophical arguments back and forth about the whole "oneness" issue I won't get into here - I just prefer to be as nice as humanly possible. Except with republicans, you can eat them.

this brings to mind an argument that always confused me (if you can shed some light on it … )

1 “Cattle and meat razing is inefficient … so much grain goes into them for the output, we could just feed people with grain” now if we were talking strait grain going in … yes

But a majority of cattle are free range. They sit and eat grass in pasture land. Only time they are usually fed anything besides that is (up in Minnesota here) it gets cold out and snows … then they have to be kept inside

So really they are not using up much for the output of arable land (unless you wanted to take out the grassland that they are using for grazing … usual woods and lake shore and the like … and turn that into fields) (percentage increases in colder climate up here where winter is longer) … though cattle are also fed alfalfa … which is actually a VERY good crop to have (not really a crop … they just more sprinkle seed on a field that they are going to keep empty) they do this because even with crop rotation the fields “wear down” so they let it grow grass and alfalfa.

So basically what I am saying is yeah they are inefficient … but at least around here they survive on plants and land that would have to be essentially left much as they were anyways (so no real increase in production around here if we didn’t have cattle)

Also you are talking strait grain output (for efficiency)… (things like wheat and corn are very efficient) BUT we can not survive on wheat alone … the other plants we need to make a viable diet are not always as efficient (or easy) to cultivate

By the time all the different things that are needed in your diet are found it really is not all that much to raise cattle

(now I realize that cattle razing is done differently everywhere and not always like it is on small farms) but really around here cows are more “grass scavengers” LOL


Just never got the argument when they were comparing to shear grain output

I beleive that most of them are actually from factory farms, but I wouldn't be comfortable killing and eating even the most fulfilled and free cow, so I've never actually looked up the numbers - it just seems to make sense that industrial facilities produce more. I know here in arkansas the area around tyson chicken plants is soaked with antibiotics that are mutating local bacteria into super-germs...that's a nightmare this world really DOESN'T need...

oh, forgive me, I was assuming since you were apperently quite knowledgable about swiss cheese - I'm aware the alps aren't entirely contained in switzerland, forgive an ignorant american ?


But I do like Swiss cheese "Tête de Moine" or the monk (?)'s head. Nice, and from raw milk.

And i do know that there is still small farming in the US to.Here in the EU the big producers get subsidies from the EU for their exports and those who do agriculture an a human size get nothing. It should be vice versa.

no offense, but I'd kick you too, if you hooked me up to a milking machine. At any rate, statistically speaking I'm reasonably sure that factory farms are responsible for the vast majority of american animal products (They are, after all, FACTORY farms). If you care about the treatment of animals at all, I don't see how you can stomach eating them - but I suppose having a relatively good life before you're murdered is better than living in a concrete pen until you're murdered. *shrug* neither appeals much to me.


I care enough about animals that I will actually call the police if I see for example a deer that was hit by a car and thrown into the ditch and is still alive. I do this to get permission to put it out of its misery. It is very weird. They look at you when you walk up to them and it is like they know what you have to do and they turn away so you don't have to look them in the eye anymore. I've had to do this over 10 times in the past 3 years. It is never easy to kill even if it is mercy. The reason people can eat a chicken, pig, or a cow is because they haven't had to raise it and then kill it and butcher it themselves. I know I couldn't personally raise a cow then slaughter it and then have hamburgers for dinner. However that doesn't mean I'm not going to the store and buy some pretty packaged meats. To most it doesn't register that "Hey.. this used to be alive."

I do not eat meat all the time as I have a varied diet. Right now since it is summer it is fresh fruits and veggies with a little fish and meat thrown in. In the winter I seem to eat the most meat as the fresh fruits and veggies are really not to be found, and I'd rather not eat something that has been sprayed with chemicals at the store. Yes I know I ingest them when I eat meat.

But I do like Swiss cheese "Tête de Moine" or the monk (?)'s head. Nice, and from raw milk.

And i do know that there is still small farming in the US to.Here in the EU the big producers get subsidies from the EU for their exports and those who do agriculture an a human size get nothing. It should be vice versa.

I agree completely - big industry = bad

this is NOT a religion discussion, it is foolish of you to try and make it one

this is a discussion of more science: the way the digestive tract is laid out: design of the teeth, intestines stomach etc; an omnivorous diet is obviously prepared for

Your religious views do not interest me, and I am not intertested in discussing them at this point in time, I was not trying to change it into a religious discussion: you will see that my response to you was saying that just because the human body can do many things, that doesn't mean it must do them.

An omnivorous diet may be 'prepared' for, but then too the choice to exist on a vegetarian or vegan diet is also 'prepared' for.

***

Moving on: does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be a vegan?

Anticarnivoria: FYI, the human body is quite capable of digesting raw meat. Mett, a product made of minced pig with a few spices is a common food around here. I never had problems with that, as well as a rare steak goes down easily, one of the show-it-the-hot-pan-for-a-few-seconds type. And i consume raw meat sometimes.
It is of no use to simply use false statements in arguing a point.

I care enough about animals that I will actually call the police if I see for example a deer that was hit by a car and thrown into the ditch and is still alive. I do this to get permission to put it out of its misery. It is very weird. They look at you when you walk up to them and it is like they know what you have to do and they turn away so you don't have to look them in the eye anymore. I've had to do this over 10 times in the past 3 years. It is never easy to kill even if it is mercy. The reason people can eat a chicken, pig, or a cow is because they haven't had to raise it and then kill it and butcher it themselves. I know I couldn't personally raise a cow then slaughter it and then have hamburgers for dinner. However that doesn't mean I'm not going to the store and buy some pretty packaged meats. To most it doesn't register that "Hey.. this used to be alive."

I do not eat meat all the time as I have a varied diet. Right now since it is summer it is fresh fruits and veggies with a little fish and meat thrown in. In the winter I seem to eat the most meat as the fresh fruits and veggies are really not to be found, and I'd rather not eat something that has been sprayed with chemicals at the store. Yes I know I ingest them when I eat meat.

My personal stance on this is that if I wouldn't be morally comfortable doing it myself - then I shouldn't be paying someone else to do it. It just seems like the most responsible kind of consumerism to me. I think a 3 second flash of the animal's last moments or something every time you take a bite of meat would be sufficient to turn all but the most sick freaks vegetarian. They died for your personal gratification...seems to me the least you can do is recognize that it happened and THEN make your decision.

Anticarnivoria: FYI, the human body is quite capable of digesting raw meat. Mett, a product made of minced pig with a few spices is a common food around here. I never had problems with that, as well as a rare steak goes down easily, one of the show-it-the-hot-pan-for-a-few-seconds type. And i consume raw meat sometimes.
It is of no use to simply use false statements in arguing a point.

Most people would not eat raw meat - my statement wasn't intentionally false, my apoligies.

does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be a vegan?

mercy is for sissies.

I possess a masters on evolutionary biology. Let's look at a few facts, shall we?...

First H. Sapiens is omivorous, but whith an a heavy tendency toward vegatarianism (herbivory).

Why? Well first off let's look at our teeth. H. Sapiens has large incisors relative to the canines, a herbivorous trait. We also posses flat multi-cusped molars, not slicing carnissals.

Next, our digestive tract is fairly long, again unlike a carnivours. This largely due the fact that plant matter (cellulose) is more difficult to break down, and as a result, a more extensive digestive tract is required. Ever notice that herbivores tend to be bulkier? The digestive acids are also not nearlty as strong as in a typical carnivors. However, thoughtout my life I have eaten raw meat (better for you), but you have to get used to it.

Our livers are also not adapted for expelling large amounts of cholesteryol, unlike a wolfs' or lions'.

Another clue is humans as a whole need to eat relatively frequently for optimal physical and mental preformance. Large carnivores are the opposite. A lion, for example, can easily go without food for week. As a sidenote, carnvores are less dependent (generally speaking) on water to hydrate themselves because blood is high in water. Herbivours on the other hand, tend to require more water.

The final verdict is that, yes, we can eat animal based protien, just not a hell of a lot of it. We are omnivores with an decident emphisis on herbivory.

EDIT: Additional clue: Our Masseter Muscle (the main jaw closing muscle of herbivourus) animals is far more developed then the Temporal Muscle, which is the main jaw clsing muscle of carnivores.

I possess a masters on evolutionary biology. Let's look at a few facts, shall we?...

First H. Sapiens is omivorous, but whith an a heavy tendency toward vegatarianism (herbivory).

Why? Well first off let's look at our teeth. H. Sapiens has large incisors relative to the canines, a herbivorous trait. We also posses flat multi-cusped molars, not slicing carnissals.

Next, our digestive tract is fairly long, again unlike a carnivours. This largely due the fact that plant matter (cellulose) is more difficult to break down, and as a result, a more extensive digestive tract is required. Ever notice that herbivores tend to be bulkier? The digestive acids are also not nearlty as strong as in a typical carnivors. However, thoughtout my life I have eaten raw meat (better for you), but you have to get used to it.

Our livers are also not adapted for expelling large amounts of cholesteryol, unlike a wolfs' or lions'.

Another clue is humans as a whole need to eat relatively frequently for optimal physical and mental preformance. Large carnivores are the opposite. A lion, for example, can easily go without food for week. As a sidenote, carnvores are less dependent (generally speaking) on water to hydrate themselves because blood is high in water. Herbivours on the other hand, tend to require more water.

The final verdict is that, yes, we can eat animal based protien, just not a hell of a lot of it. We are omnivores with an decident emphisis on herbivory.

*kisses you*

Your religious views do not interest me, and I am not intertested in discussing them at this point in time, I was not trying to change it into a religious discussion: you will see that my response to you was saying that just because the human body can do many things, that doesn't mean it must do them.

An omnivorous diet may be 'prepared' for, but then too the choice to exist on a vegetarian or vegan diet is also 'prepared' for.

***

Moving on: does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be a vegan?


Nope. Your choice :)

the logic in your post was stunning! lets try to think of other great examples of when people say "who cares?" and kill living beings? hmmm, slavery? gladitorial games? People who protested these in their own time were ridiculed, but looking back we're appalled that anyone could even consider allowing them to happen. what justifies eating animals? is it because they're different in body structure? (you don't eat africans or asians...do you?), because they're stupid? (do you eat mentally retarded people?), or because god says you're better than them? THAT argument holds alot of water...the only other possibility is that you're just assuming you're completely superior to other beings with no reason. if you'd like to continue this debate I'd invite you all to http://www.thewolfatyourdoor.tk/ to post in the forums there, I'm not going to respond to anything else as I'm going to bed - feel free to stop by the site (it's not a vegetarian site, the makers just happen to be vegan and allways up for a debate - most of the site is devoted to art at the moment)
idiot. I can eat what I want when I want. You can't stop me, nor change my mind.
Being a Moderate Catholic don't bring god into this.
You are NEVER going to stop people from eating meat. You can protest all you want but it's just not going to happen.
Sure Salad is good but theres no way I can always eat that.

*eats 55oz Steak drenched in A1 source,While Dirving a H2 at 140 MPH and running over raccons( i hate raccons, Rabbits and deer are cool), And getting 5 miles to the gallon *

so do bugs, more protein per oucne than meat, probably your beas, go eat some bugs

Whell, I wana try bugs, but the receipe and taste should be good, that is important for the "foodie" or addept of "slow food" I am. BTW I eat frogs and snails to, considered a speciality in lots of EU countries.

My receipe for escargots: oventemperature 180°C., time 10 min. you put the snails in a "snail form" and prepare the butter with lots of garlic and thym(?) and provence herbs.

Best wine match: a Meursault or Puligny Montrachet (don't take the grand crus, it is allready expensive) or with a crisp New Zealand Chardonnay (but not too oaky please).

Frogleggs are fine with garlic to but most are importet from Asia and I prefer the ones from here.

Nope. Your choice :)

Thank you. Any reason why I shouldn't gently encourage others to live on a vegan diet too?

Thank you. Any reason why I shouldn't gently encourage others to live on a vegan diet too?

Whell, when I eat "veggie" I liked it alot,specially since I found lots of Italian and Southern French vegetarian meals in my books.
But I don't have the character to abolish meat completely from my diet. Specially the game season is good here (national park "Les Ecrins", biggest in France) and in our 21st century disturbed nature, sometimes, even in national parks they have to shoot the eldest annimals for the health of the bigger groop.

*kisses you*
this whoel fucknig time i have been arguing we are omnivores and everyone just busts my ass and trys to bring in morality about eating animals which isnt even damned relevant

idiot. I can eat what I want when I want. You can't stop me, nor change my mind.
Being a Moderate Catholic don't bring god into this.
You are NEVER going to stop people from eating meat. You can protest all you want but it's just not going to happen.
Sure Salad is good but theres no way I can always eat that.

*eats 55oz Steak drenched in A1 source,While Dirving a H2 at 140 MPH and running over raccons( i hate raccons, Rabbits and deer are cool), And getting 5 miles to the gallon *

that was completely unrelated to the discussion, rude, and uncalled for. Because I care about those you don't doesn't make me an idiot. I beleive the measure of charactor is how someone treats their inferiors *Shrug*

Whell, I wana try bugs, but the receipe and taste should be good, that is important for the "foodie" or addept of "slow food" I am. BTW I eat frogs and snails to, considered a speciality in lots of EU countries.

My receipe for escargots: oventemperature 180°C., time 10 min. you put the snails in a "snail form" and prepare the butter with lots of garlic and thym(?) and provence herbs.

Best wine match: a Meursault or Puligny Montrachet (don't take the grand crus, it is allready expensive) or with a crisp New Zealand Chardonnay (but not too oaky please).

Frogleggs are fine with garlic to but most are importet from Asia and I prefer the ones from here.
teh snail recipe doesnt sound bad, but i'd prefer going with sautéd crickets

this whoel fucknig time i have been arguing we are omnivores and everyone just busts my ass and trys to bring in morality about eating animals which isnt even damned relevant

I never denied we were omnivorous, just stated that we had the choice not to eat an omnivorous diet.

this whoel fucknig time i have been arguing we are omnivores and everyone just busts my ass and trys to bring in morality about eating animals which isnt even damned relevant

our educated friend did stress the emphasis on herbavor...ism - I didn't deny we were omnivores either, just said it made more sense to be vegetarian.

Two reasons why most meat-eaters will never give it up.

1. Meat tastes like murder

2. Murder tastes pretty damn good

Two reasons why most meat-eaters will never give it up.

1. Meat tastes like murder

2. Murder tastes pretty damn good

Question: So, if a variety of meat products were to come onto the market which were indistinguishable from real meat in taste, nutrients, and the time they take to be digested, would there be any reason to eat real meat instead of those substitutes (provided that they cost no more than real meat and have no more detrimental environmental effects)?

Two reasons why most meat-eaters will never give it up.

1. Meat tastes like murder

2. Murder tastes pretty damn good

Hey I eat meat and 1/2 times a week a meat-/fish less meal but I can not agree with your ridiculous views.

I like murder but I think it does not taste like meat (although I never tried human meat :p )

Question: So, if a variety of meat products were to come onto the market which were indistinguishable from real meat in taste, nutrients, and the time they take to be digested, would there be any reason to eat real meat instead of those substitutes (provided that they cost no more than real meat and have no more detrimental environmental effects)?

I would eat then the meat "copy". There would be no reason to continue meat eating. Must say that the possibilities odf "quorn" are great but I don't like "seitan",then, I prefer real meals like a pasta with home made pesto.

I agree completely - big industry = bad

I disagree. Big industry = good.

The problem with meat substitutes is you don't get the satisfaction of consuming an inferior species that don't have a soul. Just look at domestic turkeys. Unlike their smarter wild cousins, they are so stupid they'll drown by looking up in the rain with their mouths open. Something that dumb not only needs to be killed, we should chop the axe gleefully. Eating the meat of said dead animal simply prevents their meat from going to waste while making a very nice meal.

I possess a masters on evolutionary biology. Let's look at a few facts, shall we?...

First H. Sapiens is omivorous, but whith an a heavy tendency toward vegatarianism (herbivory).

Why? Well first off let's look at our teeth. H. Sapiens has large incisors relative to the canines, a herbivorous trait. We also posses flat multi-cusped molars, not slicing carnissals.

Next, our digestive tract is fairly long, again unlike a carnivours. This largely due the fact that plant matter (cellulose) is more difficult to break down, and as a result, a more extensive digestive tract is required. Ever notice that herbivores tend to be bulkier? The digestive acids are also not nearlty as strong as in a typical carnivors. However, thoughtout my life I have eaten raw meat (better for you), but you have to get used to it.

Our livers are also not adapted for expelling large amounts of cholesteryol, unlike a wolfs' or lions'.

Another clue is humans as a whole need to eat relatively frequently for optimal physical and mental preformance. Large carnivores are the opposite. A lion, for example, can easily go without food for week. As a sidenote, carnvores are less dependent (generally speaking) on water to hydrate themselves because blood is high in water. Herbivours on the other hand, tend to require more water.

The final verdict is that, yes, we can eat animal based protien, just not a hell of a lot of it. We are omnivores with an decident emphisis on herbivory.

EDIT: Additional clue: Our Masseter Muscle (the main jaw closing muscle of herbivourus) animals is far more developed then the Temporal Muscle, which is the main jaw clsing muscle of carnivores.


You're correct, humans are more vegetarian than carnivorous, but we're still omnivorius, which means we do (and always have) eaten meat.

Hey I eat meat and 1/2 times a week a meat-/fish less meal but I can not agree with your ridiculous views.

I like murder but I think it does not taste like meat (although I never tried human meat :p )

human meat tastes like pork - that's probably the reason the jews and muslims don't eat it.

Why worry about the abuse of chickens. Worry about the abuse of children. Chickens are breed to be food on my dinner plate.

that was completely unrelated to the discussion, rude, and uncalled for. Because I care about those you don't doesn't make me an idiot. I beleive the measure of charactor is how someone treats their inferiors *Shrug*
I;m just joking around dude.
what do you mean by inferiors ?

So people taste like pork...

I think we've just stumbled upon a solution to the homeless in our country.

:headbang: What do you people want... the chickens on a table while they kill it by deadly injection... get over it... eat well and exercise... Die Anyway

I disagree. Big industry = good.

"bussinessmen generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public" - Adam Smith, author of "Wealth of Nations"

:headbang: What do you people want... the chickens on a table while they kill it by deadly injection... get over it... eat well and exercise... Die Anyway

I agree, we're all gonna die eventually anyway. I'm willing to give up a few years so that I can enjoy a friggin hamburger.

Why worry about the abuse of chickens. Worry about the abuse of children. Chickens are breed to be food on my dinner plate.
exactly my point, those chickens are not pets or family animals, they are bred and raised to be killed for food

Just look at domestic turkeys. Unlike their smarter wild cousins, they are so stupid they'll drown by looking up in the rain with their mouths open.

Yes, look at domestic turkeys: their eyes are on the sides of their heads. Thus in order to look upwards at rain they are going to turn their heads to one side. Thus rainwater will not drown them unless it rises above head level.

More debunking available here:

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/turkey.htm

"bussinessmen generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public" - Adam Smith, author of "Wealth of Nations"

And this quote is somehow proof that big business is bad?

Anyway, would everyone be mad here if these workers were throwing around vegies instead of chickens?

Plants are living things too ya' know.

I;m just joking around dude.
what do you mean by inferiors ?

anyone or anything less than yourself in any respect

:headbang: What do you people want... the chickens on a table while they kill it by deadly injection... get over it... eat well and exercise... Die Anyway

I really don't think chickens for human consumption are usually killed by injection.

teh snail recipe doesnt sound bad, but i'd prefer going with sautéd crickets

Can you buy snails "vineyard snails" (called like that in EU) in the US and is it expensive? Here a dozen, prepared with the butter and ready to put in the oven costs about 3€ for fresh and 2€ frozen.

I agree, we're all gonna die eventually anyway. I'm willing to give up a few years so that I can enjoy a friggin hamburger.

I'm willing to live a few years longer so the friggin cow can enjoy itself...

:headbang: What do you people want... the chickens on a table while they kill it by deadly injection... get over it... eat well and exercise... Die Anyway

Yes we will all die, but lifespan is only half the equasion. The other half is the quality of life. I believe in putting "more youth into my years" so to speak. So far at 41 I've done extremely well and look and feel much younger than my age might indicate. My uncle was wise, and taught me this at a young age.

The main fault of the young is they (for the most part) have little concept of suffering and death and of failing health. I see this everyday, they smoke, drink, take drugs and will willingly through any crap into there mouths without a second thought.

"Invest" in your most intimate possession - your body! All else is irrelevent in comparison to it.

The problem with meat substitutes is you don't get the satisfaction of consuming an inferior species that don't have a soul. Just look at domestic turkeys. Unlike their smarter wild cousins, they are so stupid they'll drown by looking up in the rain with their mouths open. Something that dumb not only needs to be killed, we should chop the axe gleefully. Eating the meat of said dead animal simply prevents their meat from going to waste while making a very nice meal.

On standardized tests I'm usually in the 99th percentile - if stupidity (a relative term), deserves death, I should be killing 99 out of every 100 people I meet - no matter where you place the bar of "stupidity deserving death" there will be humans on the wrong side. as far as animals not having souls...I know people who say they do - so that point is null...either human life is as worthless as animal life or animal life has value too.

I'm willing to live a few years longer so the friggin cow can enjoy itself...

Meat simply tastes too good. I'm never giving it up! NEVER!!!!

[QUOTE=Anticarnivoria]I'm willing to live a few years longer so the friggin cow can enjoy itself...
Why would you even care about weather a cow enjoys itself?

anyone or anything less than yourself in any respect
and how does that make eating animals wrong?
If we were not ment to eat meat our bodys would not be able to eat meat?
Why go agnist nations?

yes, I'd love to see you chase down a gazelle, skin it with your fingernails, and eat it raw. go for it, you'd be puking in minutes (as if you would be capable of getting far enough to puke) - entirely without technology, humans do not eat meat - as they can't stomach raw meat. Of course, rape and genocide are entirely natural as well, so I don't see how the "natural" argument means anything at all.


You sir, talk out of your anus.

Cavemen used spears = technology. So yeah maybe so......BUT AS HUMANS WE ARE MEAT EATERS.

oh and as for raw meat....thats why man learned to control fire. God us humans rock, all those stupid animals deserve to get eaten. ha!

Humans are killers. We need to kill to survive. If you eat vegetabes, you're killing them.

The only exception may be the fruit and nut people, but they're still enslaving those trees and bushes (which are, mind you, domesticated plants).

We live off of death. It's unfortunate, but it's true. We're made from the death of stars, and we depend on death for our heat and light.

Saying that animals are somehow superior to vegetables (because they consume more death?) is pretty arrogant.

Just because animals feed off of the death of plants (which feed off of the death of the sun), they're supposed to be superior?

As for abusing chickens, that's just pointless and stupid. I'm not even going to bother watching the movie.

Why would you even care about weather a cow enjoys itself?

Personally speaking: yes, I would. I would rather a cow lived a life free from misery than one full of it.

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/downloader.asp?file=/downloads/cj_36814.wmv


that's sick


What do you want in a country where a chicken has to cost less then a pack of cigarettes...

Why is a chicken so important? Why care about animal welfare when people go to bed starving? They are not people and cannot think, it's natural and Ok to eat them.

Why would you even care about weather a cow enjoys itself?

it's my religion - it values all forms of life and seeks to cause the least suffering possible. it's just in my personality I guess - if you can look into those big brown eyes and then stab the poor thing then I suppose that's you - it seems sick to me.

Meat simply tastes too good. I'm never giving it up! NEVER!!!!

Can I ask you the same somewhat long-winded question I asked earlier:

"Question: So, if a variety of meat products were to come onto the market which were indistinguishable from real meat in taste, nutrients, and the time they take to be digested, would there be any reason to eat real meat instead of those substitutes (provided that they cost no more than real meat and have no more detrimental environmental effects)?"

Humans are killers. We need to kill to survive. If you eat vegetabes, you're killing them.

The only exception may be the fruit and nut people, but they're still enslaving those trees and bushes (which are, mind you, domesticated plants).

We live off of death. It's unfortunate, but it's true. We're made from the death of stars, and we depend on death for our heat and light.

Saying that animals are somehow superior to vegetables (because they consume more death?) is pretty arrogant.

Just because animals feed off of the death of plants (which feed off of the death of the sun), they're supposed to be superior?

As for abusing chickens, that's just pointless and stupid. I'm not even going to bother watching the movie.

animals are evolving along a different path from plants - they are developing individualism, which to me means they deserve respect. plants do not feel pain.

and how does that make eating animals wrong?
If we were not ment to eat meat our bodys would not be able to eat meat?
Why go agnist nations?

we weren't "meant" to eat anything, we're chemical processes - our lifestyle is a personal choice - besides, did you not see the evolutional biologist in here saying that we were largely vegetarian, biologically?

it's my religion - it values all forms of life and seeks to cause the least suffering possible. it's just in my personality I guess - if you can look into those big brown eyes and then stab the poor thing then I suppose that's you - it seems sick to me.
May I ask what your religion is?

As far as I'm concered. This should not be relevent when theres world hunger and people starving in the steets.
Lets think of those people 1st!

Can I ask you the same somewhat long-winded question I asked earlier:

"Question: So, if a variety of meat products were to come onto the market which were indistinguishable from real meat in taste, nutrients, and the time they take to be digested, would there be any reason to eat real meat instead of those substitutes (provided that they cost no more than real meat and have no more detrimental environmental effects)?"

I don't think they'll ever be able to mimic the same tender, juicy meaty glory of meat! So your question is mute.

Why care about animal welfare when people go to bed starving?

Chosing between chicken and a vegetarian/vegan alternative is an almost effortless decision in the western world, and so it is quite easy for an individual to stop contributing as much to poor animal welfare.

Solving the problems of global hunger are much more difficult, but an argument can be made that the western world manages its resources poorly in using excessive amounts of land to raise animals which are then consumed, when some of that land could be used more efficiently to produce non-animal food for the hungry.

Obviously it isn't as simple as that, but the point should be apparent.

I don't think they'll ever be able to mimic the same tender, juicy meaty glory of meat! So your question is mute.

Not even if it was cloned tissue grown in a vat without ever being attached to a central nervous system (thus unable to feel pain or suffering)?


(ITYM 'moot')

Simple fact is this....

I like meat, as a human I am designed to eat meat. However, today because of our technology we can choose not too, and that's fine. However, those that chose not to eat meat should respect others that do - we are doing nothing out of the ordinary, it's nature at it's best. We may have become more efficient at the killing - but it's been happening for 10's of thousands of years.

This is why we (humans) are top of the food chain....we don't have to run after our prey, cos we invented little metal projectiles which can run faster. We don't have to stomach raw meat anymore (tho I do like a nice soft BLEEDING steak) cos we control fire and can cook - increasing the taste.

Eating animals is not wrong, for those that say it is - your idiots, plain and simple. You think it's un-natural, take a step back....we are animals, do you think a Lion would not eat you just because of emotioanl attachment (and thats all this is)

If an alien race were to look at us, we may seem like stupid little animals running round to them and they would marvel at nature and the food chain - ooh look, those silly human animals eat everything else....I guess thats why there are so many of them.

There is nothing wrong with eating animals, it's just that many humans have their head so far up there arse they can't see the wood for the trees.

And on a personal note, I hope you animal loving hippies (don't get me wrong I love animals, especially fried) go try and hug a Tiger, we will see how far your morals and sensibilities get you then! RAAAAAAAAR!! Nooooooo! *Gulp* *Belch* "damn that human tasted funny, he must have been a hippy* "wooooah"

Why is a chicken so important? Why care about animal welfare when people go to bed starving? They are not people and cannot think, it's natural and Ok to eat them.

you know that a vegetarian diet requires much less resources than an omnivorous one, right? those starving people could be fed if there were more food to go around...i.e. if there were more vegetarians! vegetarianism not only solves the animal cruelty issue but the world hunger issue as well (in theory)

Chosing between chicken and a vegetarian/vegan alternative is an almost effortless decision in the western world, and so it is quite easy for an individual to stop contributing as much to poor animal welfare.

Solving the problems of global hunger are much more difficult, but an argument can be made that the western world manages its resources poorly in using excessive amounts of land to raise animals which are then consumed, when some of that land could be used more efficiently to produce non-animal food for the hungry.

Obviously it isn't as simple as that, but the point should be apparent.

Obviously, the solution is to round up people using giant trucks, give them one last pleasant image, then turn them into cookies!

mmmmmmmmmmmmm cookies....

Originally Posted by Anticarnivoria
it's my religion - it values all forms of life and seeks to cause the least suffering possible. it's just in my personality I guess - if you can look into those big brown eyes and then stab the poor thing then I suppose that's you - it seems sick to me.

Tell you what, go up to a grizzly, look into his big brown sweet eyes....and see how long it takes him to think "Yum, food" and take your face off.

I double dare you, what a pansy.....big brown eyes indeed.

Not even if it was cloned tissue grown in a vat without ever being attached to a central nervous system (thus unable to feel pain or suffering)?


(ITYM 'moot')

Thats not so much a meat substistute as it is meat being "grown" so I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it.

By the by, did I spell it mute? Dammit. Should be checking my work :).

May I ask what your religion is?

As far as I'm concered. This should not be relevent when theres world hunger and people starving in the steets.
Lets think of those people 1st!

I am thinking of those people - I've explained that at least 3 times allready, and I plan to go into humanitarian aid as a career. my religion is an eclectic combination of elements of quite a few faiths, but it's easiest to say I'm buddhist or wiccan, though sufi muslim, taoist, new age, gnostic christian, and quite a few others work as well with the appropriate interpretation. Ecclectic Trancidentalist...or something

This is why we (humans) are top of the food chain....we don't have to run after our prey, cos we invented little metal projectiles which can run faster.

Well, I think the fact that we domesticated them may have something more to do with it rather than the development of (I assume) firearms.

Eating animals is not wrong, for those that say it is - your idiots, plain and simple.

To me it is more a case that eating animals is unnecessary, and the thought of eating dead flesh physically disgusts me.

I am thinking of those people - I've explained that at least 3 times allready, and I plan to go into humanitarian aid as a career. my religion is an eclectic combination of elements of quite a few faiths, but it's easiest to say I'm buddhist or wiccan, though sufi muslim, taoist, new age, gnostic christian, and quite a few others work as well with the appropriate interpretation. Ecclectic Trancidentalist...or something

or 'hippy'

Tell you what, go up to a grizzly, look into his big brown sweet eyes....and see how long it takes him to think "Yum, food" and take your face off.

I double dare you, what a pansy.....big brown eyes indeed.

god what a pansy, mercy is for pussies - real men have blood on their hands! *belches*

Well, I think the fact that we domesticated them may have something more to do with it rather than the development of (I assume) firearms.



To me it is more a case that eating animals is unnecessary, and the thought of eating dead flesh physically disgusts me.


fair enough and thats your choice and I respect that, you have every right not to want to eat meat, that's your decision and I respect it.

or 'hippy'

minus the drugs and sex and bizzaire fashion - yep. They make a terrible lot of sense, when it gets down to it.

Thats not so much a meat substistute as it is meat being "grown" so I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it.

So in your view there is nothing necessary in eating meat from slaughtered animals?

By the by, did I spell it mute? Dammit. Should be checking my work :).

Happens to us all: the amount of times I type 'by' instead of 'my' is ludicrous - obviously I'm not getting enough fresh raw meat in my diet.

god what a pansy, mercy is for pussies - real men have blood on their hands! *belches*

Ya, I'd say thats pretty accurate.

animals are evolving along a different path from plants - they are developing individualism, which to me means they deserve respect. plants do not feel pain.

So, this is your personal opinion. Why do you want to oush it on to us? If you really "value[d] all forms of life," then why do you eat plants? You can survive on nuts, fruits, eggs (unfertilized), milk, and honey (none of which are alive). Is that your diet?

Also, do you wear only wool, or do you wear the trophies of your conquests from the cotton fields (Cotton is really bad for the soil, by the way.)?

minus the drugs and sex and bizzaire fashion - yep. They make a terrible lot of sense, when it gets down to it.

I like a sense of Humour, thanks for not getting uptight about it :)

fair enough and thats your choice and I respect that, you have every right not to want to eat meat, that's your decision and I respect it.
too bad vegetarians refuse to accept the idea that being omnivorous means eating meat too and humans can eat meat, they are like christians during the middle ages, trying to make everyone convert to vegeatarianism because its "better for you" we all die anyway, no one cares, we are omnivorous, go away

worse than jehovah's witnesses

So in your view there is nothing necessary in eating meat from slaughtered animals?



Happens to us all: the amount of times I type 'by' instead of 'my' is ludicrous - obviously I'm not getting enough fresh raw meat in my diet.

Whether its necessary or not, I still love meat. Besides, I don't feel like using supplements or eating beans (including soy) to get my protein.

fair enough and thats your choice and I respect that, you have every right not to want to eat meat, that's your decision and I respect it.

Thanks: I will also go on to say that weighing human pleasure at eating meat/drinking milk/wearing fur against the suffering and pain that animals undergo in modern agricultural practice, I find that the animals' displeasure outweighs the benefits that humanity gains from them.

So, this is your personal opinion. Why do you want to oush it on to us? If you really "value[d] all forms of life," then why do you eat plants? You can survive on nuts, fruits, eggs (unfertilized), milk, and honey (none of which are alive). Is that your diet?

Also, do you wear only wool, or do you wear the trophies of your conquests from the cotton fields (Cotton is really bad for the soil, by the way.)?

because this is a place for public discussion of personal opinions? just plant peanuts after the cotton and the soil is fine, and I eat plants because I have to eat something to stay alive, and by staying alive I hope to change the world for the better, more than my consumption of plants harms it. Also, plants do not feel pain - and have no memory, therefore planting a new one is morally acceptable to me, whereas breeding a new animal to be slaughtered is not.

Obviously, the solution is to round up people using giant trucks, give them one last pleasant image, then turn them into cookies!

mmmmmmmmmmmmm cookies....

I'm surprised that nobody has responded to this idea yet. Do you or do u not support eating people?

too bad vegetarians refuse to accept the idea that being omnivorous means eating meat too and humans can eat meat, they are like christians during the middle ages, trying to make everyone convert to vegeatarianism because its "better for you" we all die anyway, no one cares, we are omnivorous, go away

worse than jehovah's witnesses

...we've responded to all of that before...please respond intellegently or shut up.

I'm surprised that nobody has responded to this idea yet. Do you or do u not support eating people?

I support the eating of republican people. just kidding, no I don't.

Where are you getting your info? Cigs here are 2.50 a pack for brand names. Try to buy a chicken for that. If all your facts aren't right, noone hears you....

I like a sense of Humour, thanks for not getting uptight about it :)

haha, I took it as a compliment, thank YOU

I really don't get why vegans are so mad about other people eating animals,
It there choice not to eat meat and our choice to eat meat.

...we've responded to all of that before...please respond intellegently or shut up.

But I enjoy making random statements just to tweak out other people.

Saying things to piss others off is one of the greatest pleasures life has to offer.

I really don't get why vegans are so mad about other people eating animals,
It there choice not to eat meat and our choice to eat meat.

that's like saying "I don't get why quakers get so mad about other people keeping slaves, it's their choice not to and our choice to do so" - when personal choice is hurting others it ceases to be an "agree to disagree" type issue. (note: slavery is worse than meat eating...I was just using an example that would help people see it from the vegan side)

But I enjoy making random statements just to tweak out other people.

Saying things to piss others off is one of the greatest pleasures life has to offer.

heh, I was talking to chess squares, or whoever he is

I really don't get why vegans are so mad about other people eating animals,
It there choice not to eat meat and our choice to eat meat.

as an aside, personally I'm alot more sad than I am mad. needless suffering has that effect on me

Yeah! A good old-fashioned pointless 'Don't eat meat' debate!

Me, I'm a vegan. Do any of you care? Do you buggery.

Go watch Denis Leary's "No Cure for Cancer", especially the "Asshole" song. Makes you love meat, smoking, drinking, and gas guzzling cars all over again.

Yes, look at domestic turkeys: their eyes are on the sides of their heads. Thus in order to look upwards at rain they are going to turn their heads to one side. Thus rainwater will not drown them unless it rises above head level.

More debunking available here:

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/turkey.htm
not that it pertains to this topic
but domestic turkeys are incredibly stupid

both my motherinlaw and sisterinlaw were trying to raise turkeys

the babies would routinely die by falling into footprints.

the sister in law had her turkeys running around free, and at the same time was keeping wolf and wolf hybrids in a pen

one day she came out to see that a turkey had stuck its head through the wolfpen fence. she rescued it before the wolf had a chance to kill it. (although i think it got bitten)
now most wild things wont go near a wolf. go figure. this turkey was so stupid that it put its head through the fence AGAIN and had its head bitten off.

im pretty sure thats the ONLY animal that was ever that stupid in the whole time she had the wolves.

I really don't get why vegans are so mad about other people eating animals,
It there choice not to eat meat and our choice to eat meat.

exactly

Just like how I dont get why Americans are so mad that Saddam was mistreating his people. Its his choice to mistreat his people just like its our choice to treat our citizens well.

that's like saying "I don't get why quakers get so mad about other people keeping slaves, it's their choice not to and our choice to do so" - when personal choice is hurting others it ceases to be an "agree to disagree" type issue. (note: slavery is worse than meat eating...I was just using an example that would help people see it from the vegan side)
HUMANS ARE NOT ANIMALS (dont get smart you know what i mean)

you cannot compare eating animals to keeping slaves, we have been over this, humans are omnivorous, they can and do eat meat, trying to compare eating meat to slavery just proves how ignorant and blind you are

HUMANS ARE NOT ANIMALS (dont get smart you know what i mean)

you cannot compare eating animals to keeping slaves, we have been over this, humans are omnivorous, they can and do eat meat, trying to compare eating meat to slavery just proves how ignorant and blind you are

Humans aren't animals? Hmmm, humans sure are alot like animals. Whats the difference?

too bad vegetarians refuse to accept the idea that being omnivorous means eating meat too and humans can eat meat, they are like christians during the middle ages, trying to make everyone convert to vegeatarianism because its "better for you" we all die anyway, no one cares, we are omnivorous, go away

I really don't think any of the vegetarians/vegans in this thread are arguing that human beings aren't omnivores.

worse than jehovah's witnesses

Ooohh... first you claim that the thread isn't about religion (post #60, below), and then you throw in sectarian remarks.

this is NOT a religion discussion, it is foolish of you to try and make it one

I really don't get why vegans are so mad about other people eating animals,

I'm not a vegan, and I'm not 'mad' about other people eating animals: I would much rather that they didn't, but I'm not angry about it.

Humans aren't animals? Hmmm, humans sure are alot like animals. Whats the difference?
good job, i know you got the edit so jsut shut the hell up moron

I really don't think any of the vegetarians/vegans in this thread are arguing that human beings aren't omnivores.
not outright, but they are trying to imply it



Ooohh... first you claim that the thread isn't about religion (post #60, below), and then you throw in sectarian remarks.
oh pelase i know, or at least hope you are more intelligent than that, that was a tangent comparison, it does not relate directly to the argument, unlike what you people were trying to do by saying we were moral so we shouldnt eat meat even though we are omnivores

... unlike what you people were trying to do by saying we were moral so we shouldnt eat meat even though we are omnivores

Either point out where I said that or stop lumping me in with an ill-defined "you people", please.

(Not intended to sound as snotty as it may read.)

good job, i know you got the edit so jsut shut the hell up moron

I dont understand how you can say humans are not animals. no i don't knwo what you mean or else I wouldnt have asked.

too bad you are too unpleasant to debate though, so I will just leave you alone.

good luck friend

not outright, but they are trying to imply it

oh I will leave you alone after this:
I think that they are really tryign to say that humans no longer need to eat meat. There are plenty of highly delicious alterntives. The suffering of animals is getting worse all the time. The meat industry is one of the most polluting industries. There is no need to cause all that suffering and pollution.



oh pelase i know, or at least hope you are more intelligent than that, that was a tangent comparison, it does not relate directly to the argument, unlike what you people were trying to do by saying we were moral so we shouldnt eat meat even though we are omnivores


oh but you are unable to see the tangent comparison made about owning slaves, yet you attack his intelligence. hypocritical no?

[QUOTE=Gods Bowels]oh I will leave you alone after this:
I think that they are really tryign to say that humans no longer need to eat meat. There are plenty of highly delicious alterntives. The suffering of animals is getting worse all the time. The meat industry is one of the most polluting industries. There is no need to cause all that suffering and pollution.




[/QUOTE


Actually there is,
You can't get people to switch over to not eating meat.
I hate to burst your bubble but it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, EVER!.
You can protest all you want but I don't think it's going to do much.

oh I will leave you alone after this:
I think that they are really tryign to say that humans no longer need to eat meat. There are plenty of highly delicious alterntives. The suffering of animals is getting worse all the time. The meat industry is one of the most polluting industries. There is no need to cause all that suffering and pollution.

Actually there is,
You can't get people to switch over to not eating meat.
I hate to burst your bubble but it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, EVER!.
You can protest all you want but I don't think it's going to do much.

Is there? How so? I don't see a need to eat meat. There is nothing we can get from meat nutritionally that we can't get from other sources. And how can you say it won't happen ever? Are you psychic? I doubt that you are. People will have to stop eating meat when they all die from living in a polluted environment that cannot sustain them any longer.

oh I will leave you alone after this:
I think that they are really tryign to say that humans no longer need to eat meat.

What I, personally, am saying is that people in the western world* for want of a better term, don't need to eat meat - if they pay a bit of attention to their diet they will suffer no ill-effects from refraining from eating animal products, and in my experience will find that a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is no more expensive than an omnivorous one.



* for want of a better term that doesn't reek of colonialism.

oh but you are unable to see the tangent comparison made about owning slaves, yet you attack his intelligence. hypocritical no?
wrong that was a direct comparison to slaves and was to be used in the argument, mine was an irrelevant aside about vegans whining about conversion being like that of the jehovas witness knockign at your door, its jsut saying they are annoying

wrong that was a direct comparison to slaves and was to be used in the argument, mine was an irrelevant aside about vegans whining about conversion being like that of the jehovas witness knockign at your door, its jsut saying they are annoying


well I don't really care if people keep eating meat. I just want the needless suffering to end. And the Polluting of the environment to end.

Besides... i see WAY MORE more meat eaters being belligerant to vegetarians/vegans than I do any vegetarians/vegans to meat-eaters.

Is there? How so? I don't see a need to eat meat. There is nothing we can get from meat nutritionally that we can't get from other sources. And how can you say it won't happen ever? Are you psychic? I doubt that you are. People will have to stop eating meat when they all die from living in a polluted environment that cannot sustain them any longer.
Scince when do humans eat soley for the reason of nutrition? People eat what tastes good.

Scince when do humans eat soley for the reason of nutrition? People eat what tastes good.

of course, I never said that people only eat for food? did your eally think that may post that you quoted was supposed to be an all-encompassing argument? If you had looked you would have seen that I was responding to someone who claimed that there was a NEED to eat meat.

and I stated earlier that there are plenty of very delicious non meat foods. there are also tons of delicious fake meats for those who can't live without it. I just think that if humans are supposedly so evolved then they would want to do whats best for the planet, themselves and their fellow earthly inhabitants.

well I don't really care if people keep eating meat. I just want the needless suffering to end. And the Polluting of the environment to end.

Besides... i see WAY MORE more meat eaters being belligerant to vegetarians/vegans than I do any vegetarians/vegans to meat-eaters.
maybe if the vegetarians and vegans would leave meat eaters the fuck alone we wouldnt get belligerent

Question: which poster on this thread was the first to post something that could be described as belligerent?

You know, we really wouldn't have to have this argument at all if you think about it. Meat eaters, just eat the vegetarians! Problem solved....

Question: which poster on this thread was the first to post something that could be described as belligerent?

join peta cuz no one cares

bel·lig·er·ent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-ljr-nt)
adj.
Inclined or eager to fight; hostile or aggressive.

Meat eaters, just eat the vegetarians! Problem solved....

Or we vegetarians/vegans could kill the omnivores and grind up their corpses for compost. :)

So you dont eat meat. Great. So what? Stop bothering those of us who do and you wouldnt catch so much flak.

[/my point of view ;) ]

What I, personally, am saying is that people in the western world* for want of a better term, don't need to eat meat - if they pay a bit of attention to their diet they will suffer no ill-effects from refraining from eating animal products, and in my experience will find that a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is no more expensive than an omnivorous one.



* for want of a better term that doesn't reek of colonialism.
Why just the western world? Why do you exempt the rest of the world from your vegetable tyranny? Hopefully this is not another leftist guilt trip about imperialism and what not.

btw I wish I could be vegetarian or better yet vegan but definitely not for moral reasons... vegetarianism is simply a healthier lifestyle but unfortunately I lack the discipline of avoiding a tasty steak.

bel·lig·er·ent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-ljr-nt)
adj.
Inclined or eager to fight; hostile or aggressive.
which was the 2nd post in the thread, thanks go away

This argument about killing animals and that it is cruel and unjust and not needed......I guess then we should stop Lions eating Gazelles? Or perhaps we should stop birds of prey eating rabbits? Hell, maybe we should just ban any other living thing from eating anything that is alive?

Oh wait....it's ok for the Lion to do it because thats nature at work.....and it's acceptable for a bird of prey to do it, because....wow Birds of prey are soooo amazing and oh look! it's torn that rabbit to tiny pieces! but awwwww aint nature great!

Are you getting what I'm saying here?

Damn, I really need to just stop reading message boards.....anyway, I'm a vegan and your argument is asinine....to say the least.

When was the last time you saw a pack of lions factory farming a herd of gazelles? When was the last time you saw the female lions (hunters of the pack) pumping steriods and anti-biotics into their prey, or forcing it into easy to manage little pens where it is confined with no access to clean air, exercise, socialization and all of the other things that wild animals enjoy.

Because lions do not factory farm, your argument is null and void and falls apart at the seems. Try harder next time moron. Have a nice day.

Why just the western world? Why do you exempt the rest of the world from your vegetable tyranny?

Tyranny? Did I say that anybody shouldn't or mustn't? I seem to recall writing 'don't need to'.


Hopefully this is not another leftist guilt trip about imperialism and what not.

No, I am well aware that I know very little about life in parts of South America, Greenland, Asia, Africa, Micronesia, etc. than I do about life in Western Europe and North America. Thus I don't feel qualified to express my opinion about whether the people living there need to eat meat or not.

Imperialism entered the equation because I do not know how to accurately describe exactly which countries I am referring to and which I'm not - non-less developed countries/the first and second worlds/the western world... none seems entirely satisfactory.

which was the 2nd post in the thread, thanks go away


sorry for making you look like such an asshole but I was just answering the question which was something like "What was the first belligerent post in this thread?" and so I looked and lo and behold, just as I would suspect it was a meat-eater.

but I wouldn't ask you to go away because then there wouldnt be as much diversity in viewpoints, which I like, although you don't seem to.

Mmm, chicken.

When was the last time you saw a pack of lions factory farming a herd of gazelles? When was the last time you saw the female lions (hunters of the pack) pumping steriods and anti-biotics into their prey, or forcing it into easy to manage little pens where it is confined with no access to clean air, exercise, socialization and all of the other things that wild animals enjoy.

Because lions do not factory farm, your argument is null and void and falls apart at the seems.

Bizarrely enough, as a vegan, I have more respect for that nutter with a hunting bow Ted Nugent than factory farmers for reasons not entirely unrelated to the above post by GBF&F.

Bizarrely enough, as a vegan, I have more respect for that nutter with a hunting bow Ted Nugent than factory farmers for reasons not entirely unrelated to the above post by GBF&F.

I dont think that is bizarre. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I may also believe that hunting is unecessary, but I would defend hunters rights to do so. At least teh animals they are capturing didnt have to suffer its entire life.

sorry for making you look like such an asshole but I was just answering the question which was something like "What was the first belligerent post in this thread?" and so I looked and lo and behold, just as I would suspect it was a meat-eater.

but I wouldn't ask you to go away because then there wouldnt be as much diversity in viewpoints, which I like, although you don't seem to.
i meant go awya like leave me alone

and i was the 2nd post in the thread after a post whining about chicken abuse which reminded me of the peta bullshit which makes me angry

oh noooooo, someone was complaining about the mistreatment of Animals. How dare they!

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/downloader.asp?file=/downloads/cj_36814.wmv


that's sick


What do you want in a country where a chicken has to cost less then a pack of cigarettes...

Cheaper smokes

I see chickens like I see cows; as pre-meat.

In that sense, I want my pre-meat turned into meat in the most efficient and prompt manner possible.

However, I frown highly upon the cruelty to animals for the sake of cruelty. Horror stories of workers kicking chickens around like soccerballs or breaking their backs for fun get me steamed. Partly because unnecessary cruelty is sick. But also partly because I don't want psychopaths preparing my dinner.

mmmm....Fried mutilated poultry corpse. I love it. Speaking of which, tomorrow's Tuesday. Toonie Tuesday! Two pieces of Kchicken and fries for only $2.22 at KFC up here in Canada! I'll get 2!

Our teeth are not carnivoric...look at a dog's teeth - do you have fangs?

Why yes, they are called the CANINE teeth. You know, the pointy ones between the flat front ones and the molars.

We are omnivorous and have teeth to suit such a diet. I do notice we've the one stomach, not four... and that the vestigial organ to help digest cellulose -- the appendix -- is no longer biologically useful and often needs removal because it becomes infected.

in most societies throughout history meat has been too expensive for regular consumption. I was talking civilization not scavengers, I don't deny our ancestors probably picked rotting flesh from warm corpses every now and then for some protein - they probably ate grubs too - most people wouldn't do that now. I was thinking societies like ancient egypt, china, mesopotamia, and the western world. Meat is rarity even today in 3rd world countries - which are a fairly accurate window into the past.

Bull.

I have studied medieval Europe. What did they eat? deer, boar, bear, sheep, goat, fowl (ducks, geese and chickens) and milk products along with grains. Many vegetables we enjoy today, such as tomatoes, were thought to be POISON by our ancestors.

Our European brothers eat meat too... so don't blame all the animal murder on Americans.

Cavemen hunted and ate meat -- mammoths, deers, et al.

Go into any book store anywhere in the world -- check out ethnic cuisines. You will not find a one that is free of fish, reptile, mammal or bird unless it is specifically a vegan cookbook.

Greeks, vegetarians? Japanese, vegetarian? Arabs, vegetarians? Chinese, vegetarians? Indians, vegetarians? Germans, vegetarians?

The Mongols (more primitive, to your argument) drank fermented mare's blood and yoghurt.

Africans eat cattle and drink their blood as well.

Englishmen make blood pudding.

You don't want to eat meat, and for moral reasons; that's cool. But don't pretend that the majority of the world has NOT eaten meat. Perhaps they didn't eat it in the quantities that modern man has, but they definitely ate meat.

Let me ask you Vegans/Vegatarians a question.

Suppose the work of PETA etc suceeded overwhelmingly, and the entire human population eschewed meat in their diets and went vegitarian. What would happen to cattle and chickens? Those critters made an evolutionary deal with man, to provide us with food in return mankind provided them with food and opportunities to reproduce. Domestic cattle and chickens are not at all equipped to survive in the wild, they depend on humans for their survival as a species. A world of vegans would damn both species to extinction.

That said, we have a responsibility to treat these species with respect and uphold our end of the evolutionary deal and treat them with kindness. Mistreatment of our food animals is inexcusable.

I did not work my way into the upper levels of the food chain to eat cabbage.

I enjoy debates like this one but it is a debate after all. Not an insult hurling platform. That said i'll post my view on this.

I for one like meat. It makes me happy. Now the crap from fast food places is just what i said, crap. Animal cruelty is wrong because there is no place for someone mistreating an animal for no reason. Personally I don't care if you eat meat or not. It truly doesn't matter to me. The human teeth are designed to eat both meat and plants so there is no right or wrong way. Ever since man was here on Earth he has eaten meat and also vegetables. I can't find an argument in the sense of right or wrong.

Let me ask you Vegans/Vegatarians a question.

Suppose the work of PETA etc suceeded overwhelmingly, and the entire human population eschewed meat in their diets and went vegitarian. What would happen to cattle and chickens? Those critters made an evolutionary deal with man, to provide us with food in return mankind provided them with food and opportunities to reproduce. Domestic cattle and chickens are not at all equipped to survive in the wild, they depend on humans for their survival as a species. A world of vegans would damn both species to extinction.

I think that if the whole world did turn vegetarian/vegan overnight, then there would be sufficient concern from those legions of vegetarians and vegans to look after the current generation of livestock in conditions better than they are currently receiving.

After that generation, and suitable breeding control it is entirely plausible that sustainable populations would be kept in much the same way that some deer are currently looked after in the UK - given space to live and a helping hand when needed by forestry managers or wardens.

Some species of livestock will also be reasonably appropriate to be kept as pets. A chicken or a pig might not seem like the most attractive pet, but there are people out there who look after and love their tarantulas, pigeons, rats, stick insects and mongrel dogs.

A somewhat implausible answer, but speaking as a vegan, I think it is less implausible than the human race suddenly converting.

I did not work my way into the upper levels of the food chain to eat cabbage.

Exactly what life form were you born as that you weren't in the upper levels of the food chain to start with? Sunflower? Slug? Rabbit? Fox?

Bull.

I have studied medieval Europe. What did they eat? deer, boar, bear, sheep, goat, fowl (ducks, geese and chickens) and milk products along with grains. Many vegetables we enjoy today, such as tomatoes, were thought to be POISON by our ancestors.

Our European brothers eat meat too... so don't blame all the animal murder on Americans.

Cavemen hunted and ate meat -- mammoths, deers, et al.

Go into any book store anywhere in the world -- check out ethnic cuisines. You will not find a one that is free of fish, reptile, mammal or bird unless it is specifically a vegan cookbook.

Greeks, vegetarians? Japanese, vegetarian? Arabs, vegetarians? Chinese, vegetarians? Indians, vegetarians? Germans, vegetarians?

The Mongols (more primitive, to your argument) drank fermented mare's blood and yoghurt.

Africans eat cattle and drink their blood as well.

Englishmen make blood pudding.

You don't want to eat meat, and for moral reasons; that's cool. But don't pretend that the majority of the world has NOT eaten meat. Perhaps they didn't eat it in the quantities that modern man has, but they definitely ate meat.
Well said. As the Chinese saying goes... "Chinese people eat everything that has wings that is not an airplane, and everything that has four legs that is not a table."

I think that if the whole world did turn vegetarian/vegan overnight, then there would be sufficient concern from those legions of vegetarians and vegans to look after the current generation of livestock in conditions better than they are currently receiving.

After that generation, and suitable breeding control it is entirely plausible that sustainable populations would be kept in much the same way that some deer are currently looked after in the UK - given space to live and a helping hand when needed by forestry managers or wardens.

Some species of livestock will also be reasonably appropriate to be kept as pets. A chicken or a pig might not seem like the most attractive pet, but there are people out there who look after and love their tarantulas, pigeons, rats, stick insects and mongrel dogs.

A somewhat implausible answer, but speaking as a vegan, I think it is less implausible than the human race suddenly converting.


if it was up to PETA everything goes back to the wild: pets, food animals, zoo animals

That There seems a strange reluctance on the part of the omnivores and carnivores to attack me for my dietary habits: maybe I should see if I can stir up some kind of reaction... hmm.

"It is entirely possible within the 'western world'* to switch to a diet free of animal produce at little or no greater expense than eating an omnivorous diet, and there appears to be no decline in health caused by long term veganism provided that one eats sensibly."


* for want of a better term.

BWO: you are not 'over the top' about your choice of diet, nor are you unreasonable, nor do you throw out "facts" that seem baseless. You simply announce that this is your choice.

You do not do the equivalent of the evangelists telling everyone they are going to hell because they choose to believe in a different manner, nor do you use charged terms like "rape" and "murder" to justify your choice of enjoying a vegan lifestyle.

You do not attempt to change history or make it seem that the current American diet is to blame for starvation in third world countries (ignoring the fact that most of the rest of the world eats meat as well.)

Perhaps that is why no one feels the need to attack you, when your arguments are based simply on personal preference and fact, and not on trying to go for a gross-out, describing bacon and eggs as charred rent porcine flesh and fetal chicks? ;)

Exactly what life form were you born as that you weren't in the upper levels of the food chain to start with? Sunflower? Slug? Rabbit? Fox?

Toddler. Most coyotes consider them good eatin'. :)

Tyranny? Did I say that anybody shouldn't or mustn't? I seem to recall writing 'don't need to'.
But you call for the abolition of large scale livestock farms... I agree they pollute too much which is a problem that should be addressed. However I personally don't have moral qualms with putting feral creatures in a pen, and most people agree with me. Being the chief source of meats in our countries factory farms are an important feature of our omnivorous western civilization and if they disappeared like you wish then that is forcing the majority of our population to forgo most of our meat products.

No, I am well aware that I know very little about life in parts of South America, Greenland, Asia, Africa, Micronesia, etc. than I do about life in Western Europe and North America. Thus I don't feel qualified to express my opinion about whether the people living there need to eat meat or not.

Are you saying that there may be mitigating cultural circumstances, which you might not know about yet, where the slaughter of an animal for meat is morally acceptable? That negates the entire moral argument for animal rights away since you have reduced the stature of the dilemma from a universal moral issue, where there is a definite 'right' and 'wrong,' to a very narrow personal opinion which you aren't even sure applies all the time.

But you call for the abolition of large scale livestock farms...

Point out again where I did that, please.


Are you saying that there may be mitigating cultural circumstances, which you might not know about yet, where the slaughter of an animal for meat is morally acceptable?

At what point again did I make a moral argument?

Toddler. Most coyotes consider them good eatin'. :)

Ah - ontogeny replicates phylogeny. I should have realised.

if it was up to PETA everything goes back to the wild: pets, food animals, zoo animals

I'll just note here that I have no connection with PETA, and little knowledge about them (they being centred in the US and me being based in the UK).

human meat tastes like pork - that's probably the reason the jews and muslims don't eat it.

From whence comes this "fact"?

Ah - ontogeny replicates phylogeny. I should have realised.

*blink* Uh... sure! *grin*


...heh. Actually, I was making a joke, but if one views human beings in an individualistic way, than not all of us are on the top of the food chain...yet.


Surfers, for instance. I think sharks tend to nudge em down a notch. ;)

Personally speaking: yes, I would. I would rather a cow lived a life free from misery than one full of it.

Ah, but if people had no need of cows, then there would be no reason for them to breed them or feed them.

Then there would be wild cows -- where?

Or else they would wander around with open sores and starving like cows in India?

Let me ask you Vegans/Vegatarians a question.

Suppose the work of PETA etc suceeded overwhelmingly, and the entire human population eschewed meat in their diets and went vegitarian. What would happen to cattle and chickens? Those critters made an evolutionary deal with man, to provide us with food in return mankind provided them with food and opportunities to reproduce. Domestic cattle and chickens are not at all equipped to survive in the wild, they depend on humans for their survival as a species. A world of vegans would damn both species to extinction.

I eat meat and oppose the extreme vegan agenda however it is interesting that domesticated animals actually easily adapt to wilderness environments... for example stray farm pigs from the southern US evolved into the wild razorback boars of Arkansas and stray cattle evolved into Texas longhorn which can thrive unsupervised by people. In Southeast Asia there are many wild chickens running around the forests, descendents of domesticated chickens that got lost.

...heh. Actually, I was making a joke, but if one views human beings in an individualistic way, than not all of us are on the top of the food chain...yet.


So was I.

That 'whoosh' sound was the noise it made going straight over your head.

"Ontogeny replicates phylogeny" is the term used to describe the way that the embryonic development of a individual embryo is supposedly patterned after the evolution of that species through earlier forms. Thus it starts as a simple multi-cellular critter, then becomes fishlike, then something like a lungfish, then more like a land mammal, and so on. It is something of a cliche in certain fields of thought.

I was extending it past the stage of birth.

Don't worry about it, it was pretty obscure.

So was I.

That 'whoosh' sound was the noise it made going straight over your head.

"Ontogeny replicates phylogeny" is the term used to describe the way that the embryonic development of a individual embryo is supposedly patterned after the evolution of that species through earlier forms. Thus it starts as a simple multi-cellular critter, then becomes fishlike, then something like a lungfish, then more like a land mammal, and so on. It is something of a cliche in certain fields of thought.

I was extending it past the stage of birth.

Don't worry about it, it was pretty obscure.
If you mean 'ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny' then I have heard of it... not that I had much more than a really vague recollection of what it means from bio class before you refreshed me on it. I suppose its in the same confusing category as 'phenoketonurics: contains phenylalanine'

Ah, but if people had no need of cows, then there would be no reason for them to breed them or feed them.

Then there would be wild cows -- where?

Or else they would wander around with open sores and starving like cows in India?

I'll state again that I see the entire population of a town, never mind a county, country or the world suddenly going vegetarian or vegan so hideously implausible that it is ranked up there with "what if all the molecules of oxygen in my room suddenly moved off to the far end, leaving me breathing almost pure nitrogen and asphyxiating".

Having said that: as I said before, deer are looked after while living a semi-wild existence in forestlands. There is no reason why cattle could not live in a similar state, they may need a warden, but I'm sure there would be enough conscientious vegetarians or nostalgic dairy farmers to fill such roles if the implausible happened.

If an entire population suddenly turned vegetarian/vegan, than it would be able to support itself by using less land than it currently uses to support its meat based diet. Thus, even if we take into account that somewhat less than choice land is currently used for animals to graze on, there should still be sufficient resources for the livestock to live comfortably without them starving or interfering too much with our business as normal.

So was I.

That 'whoosh' sound was the noise it made going straight over your head.

"Ontogeny replicates phylogeny" is the term used to describe the way that the embryonic development of a individual embryo is supposedly patterned after the evolution of that species through earlier forms. Thus it starts as a simple multi-cellular critter, then becomes fishlike, then something like a lungfish, then more like a land mammal, and so on. It is something of a cliche in certain fields of thought.

I was extending it past the stage of birth.

Don't worry about it, it was pretty obscure.

*smacks forehead* Replicates!! I read 'replaces', and... well, you can see the results. Heh. I'm only a little dumb. ;)

If you mean 'ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny' then I have heard of it...

Yeah, it started out in that formulation as a serious theory, but as it was falsified more and more by evidence some people started using a slightly softer expression so as to cling to the idea despite it being marginalised by science.

Anyhow: back to our regularly scheduled flamewar.

teh snail recipe doesnt sound bad, but i'd prefer going with sautéd crickets

Give me your recipe, please.

Point out again where I did that, please.
You clearly stated you were against factory farms and you were theorizing about the possibility of humans raising former farm animals as pets if factory farms were disbanded, a scenario which you approved of though you qualified as unlikely.

At what point again did I make a moral argument?
With all the discussion about how farms inflict pain and suffering against animals and how this is bad. Morality concerns our actions and their consequences (such as suffering) against individuals in society... you are judging farm animals worthy of being individuals governed by this morality

You clearly stated you were against factory farms and you were theorizing about the possibility of humans raising former farm animals as pets if factory farms were disbanded, a scenario which you approved of though you qualified as unlikely.

I expressed the opinion that I thought the suffering caused by modern farming techniques in the west was unnecessary. I then outlined a possible way that the livestock could be maintained as species living reasonably pleasent lives if everyone decided not to eat them any more. I only did so when being asked by another what could happen if such an inconceivable thing occured. I don't think I said that they should be kept or must be kept, just that they could.


With all the discussion about how farms inflict pain and suffering against animals and how this is bad. Morality concerns our actions and their consequences (such as suffering) against individuals in society... you are judging farm animals worthy of being individuals governed by this morality

I think this is probably the closest I came to saying that: but note that I did not say that anything was bad in a universal sense -

I will also go on to say that weighing human pleasure at eating meat/drinking milk/wearing fur against the suffering and pain that animals undergo in modern agricultural practice, I find that the animals' displeasure outweighs the benefits that humanity gains from them.

Here is where we get into the nub of the matter: I am not convinced that human beings have moral responsibilities which neatly finish at the dividing line between the human and other species. I'm not even convinced that human beings have moral obligations, period.

Note that in my quoted section above I said "I find" - a personal ethical position, rather a universal one. If I had wanted to declare it to be a universal judgement which I believed all others must obey, then I would have stated it as such. If I had wanted to say 'it is an abomination against the Lord/Categorical Imperatives/the Good/Utilitarian principles/whatever', then I would have done so.

I am the instance of humanity refered to in that paragraph, and if I believe that my benefits from eating meat are outweighed by the negative effects that I perceive/believe animals to undergo in the name of that consumption. then it is only really me that can be the final judge of that. I beleve I have applied the same satndard here to others that have contributed intelligently to the discussion - if they feel that they gain an advantage from consumption of animal products, then so be it, I cannot argue with their judgement on that issue, but I can state that I would rather that they didn't feel that way: that for them the scales tipped the other way.

Yes, I could eat meat, but I would feel disgusted with myself for doing so (given that I accept a statistically unavoidable amount of accidental contamination) and so a negative emotional effect experienced by me would be worse for me than any benefit of, say, slightly more long term stamina because the meat would take longer to digest than an alternative, or a passing enjoyment of the taste of liver or kidney.

I expressed the opinion that I thought the suffering caused by modern farming techniques in the west was unnecessary. I then outlined a possible way that the livestock could be maintained as species living reasonably pleasent lives if everyone decided not to eat them any more. I only did so when being asked by another what could happen if such an inconceivable thing occured. I don't think I said that they should be kept or must be kept, just that they could.


I reasoned that such a scenario you envision, where no factory farms exist, would surely be tyranny against those who want to eat meat.


Here is where we get into the nub of the matter: I am not convinced that human beings have moral responsibilities which neatly finish at the dividing line between the human and other species. I'm not even convinced that human beings have moral obligations, period.

Note that in my quoted section above I said "I find" - a personal ethical position, rather a universal one.
Thanks for the clarification... I don't believe in universal morality either and the human-farm animal demarcation to me is, in the cosmic scheme of things, just a practical way of satisfying the demand that most of humanity has for meat. But I do believe this demarcation "neatly finishes" at a precise dividing point since I see more differences between man and beast than you do. I guess we'll have to leave it at that as I don't see a way for us to change each others minds.

I was wondering what would the strict vegan do in the event of a tapeworm infection?

I reasoned that such a scenario you envision, where no factory farms exist, would surely be tyranny against those who want to eat meat.

No, it wasn't me that entered that scenario into the conversation - fellow by the name of Theoretical States. I just answered his 'what if nobody wanted to eat meat' question.


Thanks for the clarification...
It wasn't the most clearly written, I'll admit that. I was somewhat tempted to go back and falsify the evidence in the hope of making it appear clearer.

I was wondering what would the strict vegan do in the event of a tapeworm infection?

Well, a strict vegan would be much less likely to get infected with tapeworms than an omnivore in the first place. I haven't had to face that question myself - but I let the greenfly eat the contents of my garden in peace, if that is of any use to you.

If only the real world were like NS. Then we could have elf farms, and torture and abuse them, without any moral qualms! You can't tell me a sack of Elf-McMuffins doens't sound pretty freaking good right now. 5 for 1 Directorate Credit at your local Mc-Elfmans! :)

"Someone is cooking an Elf-McMuffin...sizzle."

On a serious note, who cares if we beat the holy hell out of chickens before we kill them? Chickens are useless anyway. All they do is walk around, pecking, squacking and shitting all over the place. Oh, and causing flu virii to mutate every few years and killing a few thousand people.

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/downloader.asp?file=/downloads/cj_36814.wmv


that's sick


What do you want in a country where a chicken has to cost less then a pack of cigarettes...
I have to say that I don't care. Chickens have no intelligence whatsoever, and have no idea if they are better off wild or in giant feedlots.

Let's just look at a few points from both sides of the argument (Please note, any that are opinions aren't included, i'm only putting up the scientific facts. Please tell me if I put up any that aren't)

Vegan/Vegetarian side:
-The human digestive system is, although omnivorous, heavily biased towards the herbivorous.
-A Vegan/Vegetarian diet is supposedly far healthier than an omnivorous one.

Meat eater side:
-The human digestive system can handle meat, even raw, so there is no reason not to eat it.
-Non-human animals are not sentient (Think of them being fairly simple machines. They run on instinct (Programs), whereas we would be more complex ones, with adapting code.). This means that they are, too put it literally, too stupid to be miserable.(Please note. This is talking about such animals as cows and chickens) (I personally disagree with this, since I believe that even a non-sentient animal shouldn't have to be put through it in case we are wrong, but that is merely my opinion rather than a fact)

That's just two of the more common points for people to compare.

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, i'm not a vegetarian, but I eat meat simply for the taste of it. If an alternative that was not from an animal, yet was in every way identical was created, I would more than gladly eat it instead.

I did not work my way into the upper levels of the food chain to eat cabbage.

correct, you were born without a bit of work into the upper levels of the food chain.

From whence comes this "fact"?

"Aztec" by gary jennings - canibals have said more than once that people taste like pork. I assume you were asking about that and not the Jew/Muslim statement, which is a religious law that some follow and some don't.

My family has four chickens in our backyard. We treat them nicely, and we harvest the eggs and have omelet every week or so and a boiled egg now and then as a snack.

As far as the "what were humans meant to eat" argument, I'd just like it if people would stop. I realize that some of you meat-eaters feel like we're trying to push vegetarianism on you, and I agree that's not right, but I equally don't like how you bash our philosophy. There's nothing nutritionally wrong with a vegetarian diet; I've been vegetarian for the last 11 of my 14 years, going through vegan periods at times, and I'm perfectly normal. Well, maybe not "normal", but I'm not deformed, diseased, stunted, or in any other way impaired - all my freakiness is fun, personality-based and stems from environment, not diet. I rarely take supplements, and I've never even thought about "combining" my foods like a lot of going-veggie books talk about. Basically if you're going to argue the merits of meat vs. non-meat diets, argue within the political arena because the fact is a lot of the misconceptions about each are completely fallacious, they're both valid nutritionally. And it just doesn't matter anymore what we were "meant to eat". I mean seriously do you think nature intended us to drive around in cars and chat on cell phones and live in the wood/metal/plaster boxes that pepper giant flats of pavement and cement?

Please stop bashing!

Damn, I really need to just stop reading message boards.....anyway, I'm a vegan and your argument is asinine....to say the least.

When was the last time you saw a pack of lions factory farming a herd of gazelles? When was the last time you saw the female lions (hunters of the pack) pumping steriods and anti-biotics into their prey, or forcing it into easy to manage little pens where it is confined with no access to clean air, exercise, socialization and all of the other things that wild animals enjoy.

Because lions do not factory farm, your argument is null and void and falls apart at the seems. Try harder next time moron. Have a nice day.


You obviously missed the point of the post, which for someone with an IQ like yours is not surprising....believe me, if Lions ever got enough brains to figure out how to kill en masse, you think they wouldn't? moron.

The simple fact is this....it's nature for Lions to kill other animals....often they do it for fun, sometimes out of pure viciousness (like killing other lion cubs) and for this you probably revere them.....but you can't seem to accept the fact that your own species is very similar, and it's natures way.

My argument does not fall apart at the seams, it was a point well made and well understood by many people in this discussion. I agree that we don;t HAVE to eat meat anymore, but for many of us we still enjoy to do so and thats our CHOICE. You CHOOSE not to eat meat and I fully respect those choices, I would ask that you have the common decency to do the same.

next time when replying, give a bit more thought to your argument and of course the original post you are arguing against - on this occasion you have come off as a small minded silly little 14 year old with the debating skills of a pilled up monkey which has just been ass raped by a Rhino. Now don't ever darken my doorstep again you lower than bacterial lifeform.

no one has given me and answer yet.
Why should everyone stop eating meat just because you THINK it's wrong?

Everyone should stop eating meat because I say so. I am a vegan, and I have never been happier or thinner or more likely to skip meals. It's great.

(I am actually a vegan, and I do actually want everyone to stop eating meat)

Why should everyone stop eating meat just because you THINK it's wrong?

To whom is this question addressed?

So KFC workers are beating there cocks huh??

...or more likely to skip meals. It's great.

i guess there isnt that much good stuff to eat when you're a vegan eh