NationStates Jolt Archive

should Kerry allow full disclosure of his millitary record, yes or no

Ya know, I don't really give a shit about Kerry's military record.

But sure, why not?

All pertinent parts of Kerry's record have been disclosed and are available for the public to peruse. As his campaign manager has already said, since the Kerry campaign has been upfront about releasing the records in question, they won't go any further until Bush does the same with his.

While you weren't asking about Bush's records, I still think that's a fair deal.

Well, really it is up to him and I would respect his decision not to disclose his record, however, if I were in his situation, I would disclose it (because I would never have lied about anything in it, not saying that Kerry has) so it wouldn't be a big deal.

What parts of it aren't disclosed?

And if they are all to be disclosed, wouldn't it be only fair that all politicians who were every in the military would have their full records disclosed (like Bush maybe)?

I voted yes because I figure why not...

but honestly...how bout we focus on the issues at hand here instead of past shit? You know...like how Kerry's only platform is "I'm not Bush".

I voted yes because I figure why not...

but honestly...how bout we focus on the issues at hand here instead of past shit? You know...like how Kerry's only platform is "I'm not Bush".

Sadly enough, the fact that Bush has been such a horrendous president, combined with the results of the two-term limit, means that "I'm not Bush" is enough.

Sadly enough, the fact that Bush has been such a horrendous president, combined with the results of the two-term limit, means that "I'm not Bush" is enough.

...and so Kerry will be elected into office and do...nothing...

...and so Kerry will be elected into office and do...nothing...

That, I doubt. However, for the sake of indulgence, let's say he does: the result- probably better than Bush overall anyway.

The highest military award that this country can offer is the Medal of Honor.



Right below that...is the Silver Star.

John Kerry won one of those.
and the one right below that....

The Bronze Star.

Also.....Three Purple Hearts, for being wounded in action in Veitnam.

When his nation called him to serve...John Kerry went.

Bush....had his father place him in the Texas Air National Guard, and may or may not have gone A.W.O.L , and has admitted to abusing drugs and alchohol while stationed there.


Who would you say is the more honorable man?

Kerry has nothing to hide.

i don't know what a person's military record has got to do with his capabilities as a president. for example, bush was awol during the vietnam war, but he is still militaristic.

Kerry is making it a issue. he is running for president and i feel that any one running for president should have full discloser on there life. and that includes Bush

Right below that...is the Silver Star.

John Kerry won one of those.

Didn't he nominate himself for that?

Didn't he nominate himself for that?


I dont think you can nominate yourself for a medal.

Im not military, but I have family that are.
They always said that someone else, usually a superoir officer has to nominate you for most medals.

But..Im a civillian, so what do I know?

Right below that...is the Silver Star.

John Kerry won one of those.
and the one right below that....

The Bronze Star.

Also.....Three Purple Hearts, for being wounded in action in Veitnam.

Oh yes. Silver Star came for killing a wounded vietnamese soldier who was already trying to get away.

And two of his vaunted Purple Hearts came from self inflicted wounds.

Quite the hero isn't he?

All of these same medals apparently don't mean much to him anyway. Unless throwing them over a fence is somehow a token of respect for them . . . I'll have to look into that one.

I'm not saying that Bush was any more honorable. No he didn't go to Vietnam, and yes, there is a chance that he was AWOL for some of his service in the National Guard. But I really don't think prior military service should have any relevance whatsoever. Look at Clinton. Went to Canada to dodge the draft entirely, but nobody seems to care about that one.

Anywho ... make the records public but drop the whole damned issue. He won three purple hearts. Guess what. Nobody cares.

Oh yes. Silver Star came for killing a wounded vietnamese soldier who was already trying to get away.

And two of his vaunted Purple Hearts came from self inflicted wounds.

Quite the hero isn't he?

All of these same medals apparently don't mean much to him anyway. Unless throwing them over a fence is somehow a token of respect for them . . . I'll have to look into that one.

I'm not saying that Bush was any more honorable. No he didn't go to Vietnam, and yes, there is a chance that he was AWOL for some of his service in the National Guard. But I really don't think prior military service should have any relevance whatsoever. Look at Clinton. Went to Canada to dodge the draft entirely, but nobody seems to care about that one.

Anywho ... make the records public but drop the whole damned issue. He won three purple hearts. Guess what. Nobody cares.


First of all..you have ZERO proof that Kerry injured himself to obtain those medals.

More importantly....

Nobody cares?

John McCain cares.
A Republican and Veitnam Veteran who recently critizised Bush for his negative smear campaign against Kerry's service record.

First of all..you have ZERO proof that Kerry injured himself to obtain those medals.

More importantly....

Nobody cares?

John McCain cares.
A Republican and Veitnam Veteran who recently critizised Bush for his negative smear campaign against Kerry's service record.

Alright then. Prove that he didn't injure himself. All anybody has to work with on a decades old incident is testimony of witnesses. And I'm more inclined to believe people who aren't personal friends with a biased view. How often do the close friends of politicians say something negative about them? (That goes for everyone by the way. I'm not inclined to believe the close friends of Bush on them saying he's God's gift to mankind either. How many times have your friends said something to get you out of trouble?)

And okay, let me make myself a little more clear. Nobody without some sort of political agenda cares about Kerry's purple hearts. The majority of the public couldn't care less.

Well, except for those who insist that his purple hearts (which may or may not have been aquired under dubious circumstance) prove that he is a better person.

What I would like to see is kerry try to run on his record in the Senate. He HAS to run on his 4 months in Vietnam because his 19 years in the Senate are devoid of ANYTHING worthwhile. He sponsored NO legislation save the renaming of a few buildings and the registering of some fishing boats. Quite the leadership position right? :rolleyes:

What I would like to see is kerry try to run on his record in the Senate. He HAS to run on his 4 months in Vietnam because his 19 years in the Senate are devoid of ANYTHING worthwhile. He sponsored NO legislation save the renaming of a few buildings and the registering of some fishing boats. Quite the leadership position right? :rolleyes:


Amen to that
One of the many reasons why i dont like kerry.
Because now instead of everyone hating on clinton, their hating on bush, and kerry is using only that as his stance. Fact everything he says is pretty much a lighter version of bush. I dont kno. I believe we need to take care of some shit in the middle east before we begin making ourselves dirt rich and proseperous again. Its just people expect change, an entire cutlural change to happen over night, and it will never be that way. It takes dedication. If kerry gets elected there will be NO dedication. Hes already talkin about having no troops in iraq by the end of his term, how stupid is that shit?! There will ALWAYS be a us presence in iraq now, no matter what we want. People need to deal with it. But god kno's once bush is out of office(after his second term hopefully), i will be voting for whoever the democrat may be. Dick cheney will never get my vote.

Amen to that
One of the many reasons why i dont like kerry.
Because now instead of everyone hating on clinton, their hating on bush, and kerry is using only that as his stance. Fact everything he says is pretty much a lighter version of bush. I dont kno. I believe we need to take care of some shit in the middle east before we begin making ourselves dirt rich and proseperous again. Its just people expect change, an entire cutlural change to happen over night, and it will never be that way. It takes dedication. If kerry gets elected there will be NO dedication. Hes already talkin about having no troops in iraq by the end of his term, how stupid is that shit?! There will ALWAYS be a us presence in iraq now, no matter what we want. People need to deal with it. But god kno's once bush is out of office(after his second term hopefully), i will be voting for whoever the democrat may be. Dick cheney will never get my vote.

Dick Cheney will never run for president. But you are right...Kerry has NO record to run on and 4 months in Vietnam is just pathetic and has NOTHING to do with todays issues. Running on the distant past is not going to work.

Alright then. Prove that he didn't injure himself. All anybody has to work with on a decades old incident is testimony of witnesses. And I'm more inclined to believe people who aren't personal friends with a biased view. How often do the close friends of politicians say something negative about them? (That goes for everyone by the way. I'm not inclined to believe the close friends of Bush on them saying he's God's gift to mankind either. How many times have your friends said something to get you out of trouble?)

And okay, let me make myself a little more clear. Nobody without some sort of political agenda cares about Kerry's purple hearts. The majority of the public couldn't care less.

Well, except for those who insist that his purple hearts (which may or may not have been aquired under dubious circumstance) prove that he is a better person.
so let me get this straight

you rather believe third person evidence rather than first hand evidence provided by those that served with kerry and the rassamnn fellow who was saved by kerry

whoah holy crap whats that flying out the window! oh wait, never mind, its just your credibility

What I would like to see is kerry try to run on his record in the Senate. He HAS to run on his 4 months in Vietnam because his 19 years in the Senate are devoid of ANYTHING worthwhile. He sponsored NO legislation save the renaming of a few buildings and the registering of some fishing boats. Quite the leadership position right? :rolleyes:
do you in all honesty believe every single bill proposed in the senate or house or any state legislature is an important bill or something gravely serious? try again

do you in all honesty believe every single bill proposed in the senate or house or any state legislature is an important bill or something gravely serious? try again

No, but in 19 years I would think the man could have sponsored ONE piece of important legislation. Afterall, he says he has all these wonderful ideas NOW to make everything right....but he has done NOTHING in 19 years.

No, but in 19 years I would think the man could have sponsored ONE piece of important legislation. Afterall, he says he has all these wonderful ideas NOW to make everything right....but he has done NOTHING in 19 years.


You know - I'm not going to argue that his record looks lightweigth. Because it does. But let us all be honest at the political reality as well. Kerry was the JUNIOR Senator from Massechussets, where any upstaging of the SENIOR Senator - A certain Mr. Kennedy - would be akin to political suicide. You will find Kerry prominently co-sponsoring most of Kennedy's bills, including such noteable ones as the Patients Bill of Rights, and the Child Health Insurance and Lower Deficit Act, and Kenndy has been very generous with his statements on how much effort Kerry put into those bills.

The fact that Teddy loves to have the spotlight on himself and puts his name at the top of those bills notwithstanding. Sometimes, you have to work within the system to keep working, because Kerry's career would have been dead in a heartbeat had he ever crossed the Kennedy's and you know it.


That being said, exactly how much service did GW do for his country over that same 19 year period? And how do you feel about the decision maker he has proven to be over the past four years? So far - he has rubber stamped every spending bill that crossed his desk - which seems to be an abdication of his responsibility to direct the management of the country's finances.

The highest military award that this country can offer is the Medal of Honor.



Right below that...is the Silver Star.

John Kerry won one of those.
and the one right below that....

The Bronze Star.

Also.....Three Purple Hearts, for being wounded in action in Veitnam.

When his nation called him to serve...John Kerry went.

Bush....had his father place him in the Texas Air National Guard, and may or may not have gone A.W.O.L , and has admitted to abusing drugs and alchohol while stationed there.


Who would you say is the more honorable man?

Kerry has nothing to hide.

Actually that is NOT CORRECT:

The Highest Award is the Medal of Honor.
Second Highest is the Army/Navy/Air Force Cross (don't know if there is a Marine Cross)
Followed by the Silver Star and Bronze Star.

What I would like to see is kerry try to run on his record in the Senate. He HAS to run on his 4 months in Vietnam because his 19 years in the Senate are devoid of ANYTHING worthwhile. He sponsored NO legislation save the renaming of a few buildings and the registering of some fishing boats. Quite the leadership position right? :rolleyes:

I agree entirely! He should run on his Senate Record but alas, he can't for what you've just said.

That will come out in the debates. Mark My words

Dick Cheney will never run for president. But you are right...Kerry has NO record to run on and 4 months in Vietnam is just pathetic and has NOTHING to do with todays issues. Running on the distant past is not going to work.

Cheney doesn't want the Presidency anyway so I don't think we have to fear President Cheney. Bring on Kerry's Senate Record.

You know - I'm not going to argue that his record looks lightweigth. Because it does. But let us all be honest at the political reality as well. Kerry was the JUNIOR Senator from Massechussets, where any upstaging of the SENIOR Senator - A certain Mr. Kennedy - would be akin to political suicide. You will find Kerry prominently co-sponsoring most of Kennedy's bills, including such noteable ones as the Patients Bill of Rights, and the Child Health Insurance and Lower Deficit Act, and Kenndy has been very generous with his statements on how much effort Kerry put into those bills.

The fact that Teddy loves to have the spotlight on himself and puts his name at the top of those bills notwithstanding. Sometimes, you have to work within the system to keep working, because Kerry's career would have been dead in a heartbeat had he ever crossed the Kennedy's and you know it.


That being said, exactly how much service did GW do for his country over that same 19 year period? And how do you feel about the decision maker he has proven to be over the past four years?

Maybe so...but ANY Senator can co-sponsor a bill. However, Kerry is only running on a 4 month period of time when he has 19 years of "service" to account for. He claims to have all the answers now, but he had none when he could have made a difference. However, even then he was absent 2/3 of the time!! He did not even show up for work!! People complain that Bush goes on vacation, but that word is misleading because every president goes on vacations, but is still working. They do not get a true day off....not one in 4 years. However...Senators take MONTHS off at a time and only have to work part of the year AND get weekends off...yet Kerry was absent 2/3 of the time he was SUPPOSED to be at work. What kind of record is that?

As for Bush, well he did serve as a state governor. So he had SOME leadership experience. As for his decisions, I think he did the best he could given the advice and counsel he was given. We can all argue that we could have done better...or someone else would have done differently, but would or could we? kerry says he would have done this or that....but would he really? it is always easy to second guess, but making the decision is always harder.

His military record is fully disclosed, so this is really a non-topic.

Maybe so...but ANY Senator can co-sponsor a bill. However, Kerry is only running on a 4 month period of time when he has 19 years of "service" to account for. He claims to have all the answers now, but he had none when he could have made a difference. However, even then he was absent 2/3 of the time!! He did not even show up for work!! People complain that Bush goes on vacation, but that word is misleading because every president goes on vacations, but is still working. They do not get a true day off....not one in 4 years. However...Senators take MONTHS off at a time and only have to work part of the year AND get weekends off...yet Kerry was absent 2/3 of the time he was SUPPOSED to be at work. What kind of record is that?

As for Bush, well he did serve as a state governor. So he had SOME leadership experience. As for his decisions, I think he did the best he could given the advice and counsel he was given. We can all argue that we could have done better...or someone else would have done differently, but would or could we? kerry says he would have done this or that....but would he really? it is always easy to second guess, but making the decision is always harder.
and i presume you have an attendance record for the whole of the senate

and oh yeah, you pretend the president does all this stuff on his own, hello, reality is knocking, let him in, the executive branch doesnt do jack shit without approval by the legislature

His military record is fully disclosed, so this is really a non-topic.

NOT his fitness reports and other stuff that goes into the records. Those have to be released. If Bush has to release all of his records then so does Kerry.

NOT his fitness reports and other stuff that goes into the records. Those have to be released. If Bush has to release all of his records then so does Kerry.
who gives afuck about his fitness record
and why should kerry disclose trivial stuff when bush wotn disclose and CANT disclose his information it "accidently" burned

You know - I'm not going to argue that his record looks lightweigth. Because it does. But let us all be honest at the political reality as well. Kerry was the JUNIOR Senator from Massechussets, where any upstaging of the SENIOR Senator - A certain Mr. Kennedy - would be akin to political suicide. You will find Kerry prominently co-sponsoring most of Kennedy's bills, including such noteable ones as the Patients Bill of Rights, and the Child Health Insurance and Lower Deficit Act, and Kenndy has been very generous with his statements on how much effort Kerry put into those bills.

The fact that Teddy loves to have the spotlight on himself and puts his name at the top of those bills notwithstanding. Sometimes, you have to work within the system to keep working, because Kerry's career would have been dead in a heartbeat had he ever crossed the Kennedy's and you know it.


That being said, exactly how much service did GW do for his country over that same 19 year period? And how do you feel about the decision maker he has proven to be over the past four years? So far - he has rubber stamped every spending bill that crossed his desk - which seems to be an abdication of his responsibility to direct the management of the country's finances.

Well put. It is my understanding that the majority of Kerry's record is open for all to see, and that which is not is pretty irrelevent. Still, I think he should disclose the lot of it, unless he has something to hide...

I agree that he really shouldn't be giving such a focus to it though, like any debate, you don't win by showing that 30 years ago you were such a tough guy, he really should be focusing on the many reasons to get rid of that twit Bush and his sinister (for want of a better word), neo-con puppet-masters. If you are wondering what I am talking about, check out: http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm- American imperialism at it's purest and it's best (global US leadership....these idiots haven't learned anything from Vietnam apart from hide the truth from the public by censoring the media). Most importantly of all, scroll down to observe the signatories: Cheney, Jeb (what a stupid name) Bush, Rumsfeld (what a stupid person) and Wolfowitz (author of the 'pre-emptive strike in Iraq doctrine' which has proven so magically sucessful....oh wait..)

With such scumbags in the pentagon and white house, it makes me honestly worried about what another 4 years of this crap could be (on average 2 more wars, 3 if we include the 'war on terror'- just gotta love those wonderfully abstract enemies)

who gives afuck about his fitness record
and why should kerry disclose trivial stuff when bush wotn disclose and CANT disclose his information it "accidently" burned

And it wasn't just Bush's that was destroyed but I don't expect YOU to understand that.

Kerry's Fitness and other records that he hasn't released, will answer alot of the questions that are being asked.

I say let him release all of them and let the public decide.

Well put. It is my understanding that the majority of Kerry's record is open for all to see, and that which is not is pretty irrelevent. Still, I think he should disclose the lot of it, unless he has something to hide...

I agree that he really shouldn't be giving such a focus to it though, like any debate, you don't win by showing that 30 years ago you were such a tough guy, he really should be focusing on the many reasons to get rid of that twit Bush and his sinister (for want of a better word), neo-con puppet-masters. If you are wondering what I am talking about, check out: http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm- American imperialism at it's purest and it's best (global US leadership....these idiots haven't learned anything from Vietnam apart from hide the truth from the public by censoring the media). Most importantly of all, scroll down to observe the signatories: Cheney, Jeb (what a stupid name) Bush, Rumsfeld (what a stupid person) and Wolfowitz (author of the 'pre-emptive strike in Iraq doctrine' which has proven so magically sucessful....oh wait..)

With such scumbags in the pentagon and white house, it makes me honestly worried about what another 4 years of this crap could be (on average 2 more wars, 3 if we include the 'war on terror'- just gotta love those wonderfully abstract enemies)
you pretend people are smart enough to realise neo-con imperialism is a bad idea

Maybe so...but ANY Senator can co-sponsor a bill. However, Kerry is only running on a 4 month period of time when he has 19 years of "service" to account for. He claims to have all the answers now, but he had none when he could have made a difference. However, even then he was absent 2/3 of the time!! He did not even show up for work!! People complain that Bush goes on vacation, but that word is misleading because every president goes on vacations, but is still working. They do not get a true day off....not one in 4 years. However...Senators take MONTHS off at a time and only have to work part of the year AND get weekends off...yet Kerry was absent 2/3 of the time he was SUPPOSED to be at work. What kind of record is that?

As for Bush, well he did serve as a state governor. So he had SOME leadership experience. As for his decisions, I think he did the best he could given the advice and counsel he was given. We can all argue that we could have done better...or someone else would have done differently, but would or could we? kerry says he would have done this or that....but would he really? it is always easy to second guess, but making the decision is always harder.

If you think that the only thing he is running on is Vietnam, then I fear that you watch too much Fox. And it is odd how you can say that Bush is still working when away fron the office, but on the other hand assume that Senators cannot. That seems to be a one-sided generalization.

That being said, regarding his dedication to helping small businesses - the driving force of the economy - we have:

5. S.2478 : A bill to amend the Small Business Act to enhance the business development opportunities of small business concerns owned and controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals, and for other purposes.

S.791 : A bill to amend the Small Business Act with respect to the women's business center program.

S.918 : A bill to authorize the Small Business Administration to provide financial and business development assistance to military reservists' small businesses, and for other purposes.

S.174 : A bill to amend the Small Business Act with respect to the microloan program, and for other purposes.

S.295 : A bill to provide emergency relief to small businesses affected by significant increases in the prices of heating oil, natural gas, propane, and kerosene, and for other purposes.

S.856 : A bill to reauthorize the Small Business Technology Transfer Program, and for other purposes.

S.1499 : A bill to provide assistance to small business concerns adversely impacted by the terrorist attacks perpetrated against the United States on September 11, 2001, and for other purposes.

S.318 : A bill to provide emergency assistance to nonfarm-related small business concerns that have suffered substantial economic harm from drought.


So it would seem that he has managed to involve himself quite well on that issue.

And it wasn't just Bush's that was destroyed but I don't expect YOU to understand that.

Kerry's Fitness and other records that he hasn't released, will answer alot of the questions that are being asked.

I say let him release all of them and let the public decide.


Kerry released all of his fitness reports. Go read them yourself.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf

Kerry released all of his fitness reports. Go read them yourself.

Kerry hasn't released ALL OF HIS RECORDS. He has released MOST but not all! I want to see all of it.

you pretend people are smart enough to realise neo-con imperialism is a bad idea

Touche

Anyway - must run. Promised to take Jake to the video store to rent a game, and the kids come before debate.

And it wasn't just Bush's that was destroyed but I don't expect YOU to understand that.

Kerry's Fitness and other records that he hasn't released, will answer alot of the questions that are being asked.

I say let him release all of them and let the public decide.
of COURSE it wasnt just bush's

two words for ya: plausible deniability

what fucking questions? i dont recall any questions being asked anywhere involving fitness

Kerry hasn't released ALL OF HIS RECORDS. He has released MOST but not all! I want to see all of it.


He released ALL of his Fitness reports. That is what you asked for wasn't it?

I dont think you can nominate yourself for a medal.

Im not military, but I have family that are.
They always said that someone else, usually a superoir officer has to nominate you for most medals.

But..Im a civillian, so what do I know?

When you are an officer, it is much easier to get medals. The only reason he got his purple hearts is because he requested them. He wouldn't have got them if he didn't whine until he got them.

Kerry hasn't released ALL OF HIS RECORDS. He has released MOST but not all! I want to see all of it.

Which parts are missing? I checked with my uncle, a Navy CPO, and he sees no gaping holes in the posted physical docs. (I've never been in the military, I don't know what should be in a folder and don't pretend to, hence I ask folk that do)

More of Kerry's Record:

Fiscal 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act - Conference



Bill Number: HR 5835
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/27/1990
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0326
The conference report was adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Final passage of 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act.

HR 5835: Fiscal 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act

Vote on the adoption of the conference report [final passage] to reduce the deficit by $236 billion over 5 years -- $137 billion over 5 years from raising taxes, the rest from entitlement cuts -- and cut $184 billion in appropriations. The bill also changed the deficit reduction process.
(The conference report was adopted 54-45 on 10/27/90)

Unemployment Compensation Amendments -Federal Employees



Bill Number: HR 3167
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/28/1993
Sponsor: Gramm, R-TX


Roll Call Number: 0341
The amendment was adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Amendment to reduce number of federal employees.

HR 3167: Unemployment Compensation Amendments of 1993

Vote on an amendment to reduce the number of federal employees to the number proposed in the National Performance Review report by Vice President Gore.
Amendment introduced by Gramm, R-TX.
(The amendment was adopted 82-14 on 10/28/93)

If you think that the only thing he is running on is Vietnam, then I fear that you watch too much Fox. And it is odd how you can say that Bush is still working when away fron the office, but on the other hand assume that Senators cannot. That seems to be a one-sided generalization.

That being said, regarding his dedication to helping small businesses - the driving force of the economy - we have:

5. S.2478 : A bill to amend the Small Business Act to enhance the business development opportunities of small business concerns owned and controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals, and for other purposes.

S.791 : A bill to amend the Small Business Act with respect to the women's business center program.

S.918 : A bill to authorize the Small Business Administration to provide financial and business development assistance to military reservists' small businesses, and for other purposes.

S.174 : A bill to amend the Small Business Act with respect to the microloan program, and for other purposes.

S.295 : A bill to provide emergency relief to small businesses affected by significant increases in the prices of heating oil, natural gas, propane, and kerosene, and for other purposes.

S.856 : A bill to reauthorize the Small Business Technology Transfer Program, and for other purposes.

S.1499 : A bill to provide assistance to small business concerns adversely impacted by the terrorist attacks perpetrated against the United States on September 11, 2001, and for other purposes.

S.318 : A bill to provide emergency assistance to nonfarm-related small business concerns that have suffered substantial economic harm from drought.


So it would seem that he has managed to involve himself quite well on that issue.

Did you even LOOK at those? They are fluff and are mostly amendments to existing legislation....the fact remains, he was absent 2/3 of the time.

As for his military records...his MEDICAL records pertaining to his "three purple hearts" has not been released. I wonder why?

First of all..you have ZERO proof that Kerry injured himself to obtain those medals.

More importantly....

Nobody cares?

John McCain cares.
A Republican and Veitnam Veteran who recently critizised Bush for his negative smear campaign against Kerry's service record.

Many of us do care! Yes there are many people who disclaim Kerry's claims. John McCain is also the guy who wanted to limit your right to free speech by limiting the amount that you could give to a candidate.

When you are an officer, it is much easier to get medals. The only reason he got his purple hearts is because he requested them. He wouldn't have got them if he didn't whine until he got them.

REQUIREMENTS FOR A PURPLE HEART

. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded
(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.

(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.

(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.

(S) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.

(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed Services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.

(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.



While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.

(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.

(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.

(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

(4) Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.

(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.

(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.

(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.

(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.

(b) Heat stroke.

(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.

(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.

(e) Battle fatigue.

(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.

(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.

(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.

(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.

(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:

(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.


straight from www.purpleheart.org

thank you all for playing, please come again

Fiscal 1996 Budget Reconciliation - Passage



Bill Number: HR 2491
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/27/1995
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0556
Passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Pass 1996 budget reconciliation bill.

HR 2491: Fiscal 1996 Budget Reconciliation

Pass bill to balance the budget by 2002 by reducing spending by $900 billion, including reductions in Medicare, Medicaid, welfare and other spending. The bill also reduces taxes by $245 billion, mainly through a $500-per child tax credit.
(Passed 52-47 on 10/27/95)

Did you even LOOK at those? They are fluff and are mostly amendments to existing legislation....the fact remains, he was absent 2/3 of the time.

As for his military records...his MEDICAL records pertaining to his "three purple hearts" has not been released. I wonder why?

I wonder why too.

Fiscal 1996 Budget Resolution - Final Passage



Bill Number: H Con Res 67
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 06/29/1995
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0296
Resolution adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Final passage of 1996 budget resolution.

H Con Res 67: Fiscal 1996 Budget Resolution

Final passage of a resolution to adopt a budget outline that would balance the budget by 2002, decreasing spending by $894 billion over seven years, and setting spending guidelines for fiscal 1996. Over seven years, the resolution would decrease Medicare and Medicaid funding by $450 billion, cut discretionary spending by $190 billion, and increase military spending by $34 billion among other provisions. The bill also includes $245 billion in tax cuts [including a $500/child tax credit & capital gains tax reductions] that can only be implemented if the Congressional Budget Office certifies that the budget will be balanced.
(Resolution adopted 54-46 on 6/29/95)

More of Kerry's Record:

Fiscal 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act - Conference



Bill Number: HR 5835
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/27/1990
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0326
The conference report was adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Final passage of 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act.

HR 5835: Fiscal 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act

Vote on the adoption of the conference report [final passage] to reduce the deficit by $236 billion over 5 years -- $137 billion over 5 years from raising taxes, the rest from entitlement cuts -- and cut $184 billion in appropriations. The bill also changed the deficit reduction process.
(The conference report was adopted 54-45 on 10/27/90)

Unemployment Compensation Amendments -Federal Employees



Bill Number: HR 3167
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/28/1993
Sponsor: Gramm, R-TX


Roll Call Number: 0341
The amendment was adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Amendment to reduce number of federal employees.

HR 3167: Unemployment Compensation Amendments of 1993

Vote on an amendment to reduce the number of federal employees to the number proposed in the National Performance Review report by Vice President Gore.
Amendment introduced by Gramm, R-TX.
(The amendment was adopted 82-14 on 10/28/93)


i'll sum this up


he voted against cutting appropriation money and firing federal employees

He claims to have all the answers now, but he had none when he could have made a difference. However, even then he was absent 2/3 of the time!!
where did you get this information at? I have seen the "I am President Bush and I support this commercial" BS that said that. But I also read the fine print on that commercial. It said while he was caimpaiging for president in the lower bottom right corner. Now If I was a Senate member and presidential canidate, I would take Preidential canidate stuff more seriously then senate.

I am a US Marine and those purple hearts mean a lot. That being said I do not like Bush at all, and Kerry from what I have read is a little light weight. Its a lot respectable when someone leads by example or knows what will happen if you send people off to war.

could you guys give me a few links the facts that you guys state.

so let me get this straight

you rather believe third person evidence rather than first hand evidence provided by those that served with kerry and the rassamnn fellow who was saved by kerry

whoah holy crap whats that flying out the window! oh wait, never mind, its just your credibility

Kind of hard to see what's going on when you are bobbing in the water. I guess everyone should receive a medal when they pull someone out of the water. BTW more then one boat would patrol at a time, so there are other eye witnesses. Kind of funny why his fellow commanders requested that he leave after his third "wound". Many of his fellow commanders critizied him as being a "loose cannon", who had problems following orders. Like for instance, not leaving his boat, opening fire for no reason. Yeah he is a real hero.

Fiscal 1996 Budget Reconciliation - Passage



Bill Number: HR 2491
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/27/1995
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0556
Passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Pass 1996 budget reconciliation bill.

HR 2491: Fiscal 1996 Budget Reconciliation

Pass bill to balance the budget by 2002 by reducing spending by $900 billion, including reductions in Medicare, Medicaid, welfare and other spending. The bill also reduces taxes by $245 billion, mainly through a $500-per child tax credit.
(Passed 52-47 on 10/27/95)

sum it up:

he voted against cutting medicare, medicaid, welfare and i assume other social program support


only the neocons find your cited votes offensive formal dances

More of Kerry's Record:

Fiscal 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act - Conference



Bill Number: HR 5835
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/27/1990
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0326
The conference report was adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Final passage of 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act.

HR 5835: Fiscal 1991 Budget Reconciliation Act

Vote on the adoption of the conference report [final passage] to reduce the deficit by $236 billion over 5 years -- $137 billion over 5 years from raising taxes, the rest from entitlement cuts -- and cut $184 billion in appropriations. The bill also changed the deficit reduction process.
(The conference report was adopted 54-45 on 10/27/90)

This torpedo's Bush's whole "Kerry will raise your taxes" bit. IIRC, the policy was voted against specifically because it did raise taxes rather than address porkbarrel spending. In hindsight, this bill did little to actually reduce the debt, which continued to grow despite the raise in taxes, until 1993, when new tax laws and cuts in spending were combined

Unemployment Compensation Amendments -Federal Employees



Bill Number: HR 3167
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 10/28/1993
Sponsor: Gramm, R-TX


Roll Call Number: 0341
The amendment was adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Amendment to reduce number of federal employees.

HR 3167: Unemployment Compensation Amendments of 1993

Vote on an amendment to reduce the number of federal employees to the number proposed in the National Performance Review report by Vice President Gore.
Amendment introduced by Gramm, R-TX.
(The amendment was adopted 82-14 on 10/28/93)
So, Kerry voted against his party line. Again, torpedo's Bush's statement about Kerry being a Democrat puppet. This is one vote I would argue against Kerry's position. I do understand Senator Kerry's viewpoint on the bill, but based on the same information he had, I would disagree with the vote itself.

So, your posted record shows a) Kerry is fiscally responsible by preferring alternative methods to debt reduction rather than direct taxes on the people and b) he is willing to go against his own party in order to do what he feels is right. You know, sounds like someone I'd like to be president.

Fiscal 1996 Budget Resolution - Final Passage



Bill Number: H Con Res 67
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 06/29/1995
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0296
Resolution adopted
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Final passage of 1996 budget resolution.

H Con Res 67: Fiscal 1996 Budget Resolution

Final passage of a resolution to adopt a budget outline that would balance the budget by 2002, decreasing spending by $894 billion over seven years, and setting spending guidelines for fiscal 1996. Over seven years, the resolution would decrease Medicare and Medicaid funding by $450 billion, cut discretionary spending by $190 billion, and increase military spending by $34 billion among other provisions. The bill also includes $245 billion in tax cuts [including a $500/child tax credit & capital gains tax reductions] that can only be implemented if the Congressional Budget Office certifies that the budget will be balanced.
(Resolution adopted 54-46 on 6/29/95)

again, cutting medicaid and medicare

so you suggest he vote for a bill that he disagrees with parts of? why do that?

but thank you for providing the whole bill so i can point out stuff to those people who are intelligent enough to care

Reserve Fund for Future Tax Cuts



Bill Number: S Con Res 13
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 05/24/1995
Sponsor: Feingold, D-WI


Roll Call Number: 0182
Amendment rejected
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted YES.

Amendment to take future tax cut reserve fund out of the bill.

S Con Res 13: Budget Resolution - Amendment

Vote on an amendment to take out language in the Budget Resolution that creates a $170 billion reserve fund to pay for possible future tax cuts.
Amendment introduced by Feingold, D-WI.
(Amendment rejected 44-55 on 5/24/95)

His military record is fully disclosed, so this is really a non-topic.

Not all of his fitness reports have been released.

Kind of hard to see what's going on when you are bobbing in the water. I guess everyone should receive a medal when they pull someone out of the water. BTW more then one boat would patrol at a time, so there are other eye witnesses. Kind of funny why his fellow commanders requested that he leave after his third "wound". Many of his fellow commanders critizied him as being a "loose cannon", who had problems following orders. Like for instance, not leaving his boat, opening fire for no reason. Yeah he is a real hero.
YOU get in the water and i will shoot at you, see if you notice

who gives afuck about his fitness record
and why should kerry disclose trivial stuff when bush wotn disclose and CANT disclose his information it "accidently" burned

It's not his physical record, it's the records dealing with his military leadership fitness. You know, his fitness as a commander.

Kind of hard to see what's going on when you are bobbing in the water. I guess everyone should receive a medal when they pull someone out of the water. BTW more then one boat would patrol at a time, so there are other eye witnesses. Kind of funny why his fellow commanders requested that he leave after his third "wound". Many of his fellow commanders critizied him as being a "loose cannon", who had problems following orders. Like for instance, not leaving his boat, opening fire for no reason. Yeah he is a real hero.

This story has been batted around for a few months now. Turns out the source of them is from 1 person, John O'Neill, and his astroturf organization, Swift Boat Veterens for Truth.

Now, if the name John O'Neill sounds familiar, might I recall to you that he is the same John O'Neill selected and paid by Richard Nixon to challenge Kerry and his anti-vietnam stance through fake organizations and forged signatures. When the reported commanders that were to have classified Kerry as a loose canon were questioned by independent sources, most of them were shocked to hear that their names were tied to such attacks on a fellow Swift Boat commander.

So, your whole source for this story is a man that is known to be nothing other than a paid agent dating back to the Nixon-era.

Revenue Reconciliation Bill - Passage



Bill Number: HR 2014
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 06/27/1997
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0160
Bill passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Vote to pass a bill providing a net $77 billion in tax reductions over five years. The bill includes a $500 per child tax credit, reductions in the capital gains rate, an increase in the estate tax exemption, and tuition tax credits, among other provisions.

HR 2014: The Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1997 [Budget Reconciliation - Taxes]

Vote to pass a bill to provide $135 billion in tax reductions, with a total of $77 billion in net tax reductions over five years. The bill includes a $500 tax credit for children under 17 for families paying income tax whose combined income is less than $110,000. For families with children between 13 and 16, the credit would go into a special educational IRA for college or private school tuition. It also includes tax credits of up to 50% of $3,000 for tuition for the first two years of college. The bill reduces the capital gains tax rate from a maximum of 28% to 20% and exempts the first $500,000 from capital gains taxes after the sale of a home. The bill also includes provisions to expand IRAs, increase the estate tax exemption from $600,000 to $1 million by 2008, and increase the estate tax deduction for individuals with a small business. The bill also includes an extension of the airline ticket tax and other provisions to raise $50 billion over five years, as well as a 20-cents per-pack increase in cigarette excise taxes. [HR 2014 was formerly S 949.]
(Bill passed 80-18 on 6/27/97)

I want to see his leadership fitness records.

Yeah, uh they should be and have been disclosed. Now Bush's records on the other hand, I'd like to see them disclosed in an uncencored format.

Release all paperwork That is what I say!

He released ALL of his Fitness reports. That is what you asked for wasn't it?

He did not release all of his fitness reports. The ones he did show are filled with many "dings". This means that he never would have been given any serious commands. To lay people and non officers his records might seem good, but to officers, his FITREP's show a different story, mainly that his own CO's did not consider him for any good promotions.

He did not release all of his fitness reports. The ones he did show are filled with many "dings". This means that he never would have been given any serious commands. To lay people and non officers his records might seem good, but to officers, his FITREP's show a different story, mainly that his own CO's did not consider him for any good promotions.

No wonder he never went up in ranks. He was what a Lt JG before he got out? Why? Because he knew he wouldn't rise because of his FITREP!

Kerry's leadership... if you want to know about it, ask the soldiers that are still alive thgat were under his command. Notice how most are backing him up? I say that that's a damn good indicator of his "leadership fitness".

And anyways, even though I am a Dem., I still despise Kerry, but hey. "Better than Bush" is gonna get him elected, nothing Nader or Bush can do.

Kerry's leadership... if you want to know about it, ask the soldiers that are still alive thgat were under his command. Notice how most are backing him up? I say that that's a damn good indicator of his "leadership fitness".

And anyways, even though I am a Dem., I still despise Kerry, but hey. "Better than Bush" is gonna get him elected, nothing Nader or Bush can do.

Hmm from what I'm hearing it is a minority of people that are supporting him. One person on that boat isn't and most of the squadron he was in isn't! Most of his COs consider him a loose cannon and unfit to lead. What does that say?

Kerry's leadership... if you want to know about it, ask the soldiers that are still alive thgat were under his command. Notice how most are backing him up? I say that that's a damn good indicator of his "leadership fitness".

And anyways, even though I am a Dem., I still despise Kerry, but hey. "Better than Bush" is gonna get him elected, nothing Nader or Bush can do.

Actually....every commander he ever served under has stated that he is unfit for command. His sailors under him might like him, but in the military world, the commanders are who you want to impress...not the enlisted men. Kerry is NOT an effective leader and his running an entire campaign on a 4 month period of time instead of a 19 year Senate record is frightening.

Actually....every commander he ever served under has stated that he is unfit for command. His sailors under him might like him, but in the military world, the commanders are who you want to impress...not the enlisted men. Kerry is NOT an effective leader and his running an entire campaign on a 4 month period of time instead of a 19 year Senate record is frightening.

I agree Biff! That is basically all he has is his Vietnam Record and if he wasn't using it to get elected, I don't think this would all be happening today!

He did not release all of his fitness reports. The ones he did show are filled with many "dings". This means that he never would have been given any serious commands. To lay people and non officers his records might seem good, but to officers, his FITREP's show a different story, mainly that his own CO's did not consider him for any good promotions.
lets try this
how many presidents have been in the military, how many have been officers

and the ucrrent bush doesnt count, he was barely in the national guard

im not kidding with this but how about u get a president who doesnt have a death toll you know someone peaceful care free and not a memebr of any military organisation ever!!! just a silly thought but i figured for the sake of the world giving the largest nuclear arsenal to warmongers seems a tad silly

REQUIREMENTS FOR A PURPLE HEART

. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded
(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.

(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.

(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.

(S) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.

(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed Services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.

(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.



While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.

(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.

(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.

(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

(4) Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.

(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.

(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.

(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.

(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.

(b) Heat stroke.

(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.

(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.

(e) Battle fatigue.

(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.

(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.

(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.

(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.

(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:

(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.


straight from www.purpleheart.org

thank you all for playing, please come again


My dear chess squares, how little you know. His wounds were scratches at best, wounds that didn't make him miss duty, wounds that looked to his CO's as minor or even self inflicted. I guess I should have whined till I got one when I cut myself shaving. But I guess you feel that if you scratch yourself, you deserve one. Thank you for playing, please come again.

im not kidding with this but how about u get a president who doesnt have a death toll you know someone peaceful care free and not a memebr of any military organisation ever!!! just a silly thought but i figured for the sake of the world giving the largest nuclear arsenal to warmongers seems a tad silly

In a time of war, you don't want a pacifist! Carter was a pacifist and look what happened with the military under Carter! It went nowhere because it couldn't!

YOU get in the water and i will shoot at you, see if you notice

Hmm I did land in water when I was shot down, and yes some VC had fired at me, but I still couldn't tell what was going on. But when Kerry pulled him out of the drink, his fellow swift boat CO's did not say they (Kerry and Rassman) were receiving fire.

Kerry's leadership... if you want to know about it, ask the soldiers that are still alive thgat were under his command. Notice how most are backing him up? I say that that's a damn good indicator of his "leadership fitness".

And anyways, even though I am a Dem., I still despise Kerry, but hey. "Better than Bush" is gonna get him elected, nothing Nader or Bush can do.

Hmm if my CO were running for president, I would probably support him regardless of the facts. Much like the vets who served on his boat.

In a time of war, you don't want a pacifist! Carter was a pacifist and look what happened with the military under Carter! It went nowhere because it couldn't!

well as the only wars america has entered into in the past 50 yrs have all bn by her own choosing (rather poor choosing at that) (well extremely poor choosing) (well actually how about we take ur military and make u sit in the corner for being naughty cos quite frankly some of the things they have done are just sickening) so maybe a pacifist will solve the problem, of war time aggresors :)

i realise i generalise heavily and there are many valid arguments against a pacifist leader but in the long run it would be better surely

well as the only wars america has entered into in the past 50 yrs have all bn by her own choosing (rather poor choosing at that) (well extremely poor choosing) (well actually how about we take ur military and make u sit in the corner for being naughty cos quite frankly some of the things they have done are just sickening) so maybe a pacifist will solve the problem, of war time aggresors :)

i realise i generalise heavily and there are many valid arguments against a pacifist leader but in the long run it would be better surely


What and let our country get smacked by ALL OF OUR ENEMIES? I don't think so dude! That would be suicide! How do you think Reagan beat Carter?

If there was no one to fight then yea maybe a pacifist might be good but in this day in age, a pacifist leader is the very last thing we need.

lets try this
how many presidents have been in the military, how many have been officers

and the ucrrent bush doesnt count, he was barely in the national guard

Let's try this, 30 presidents saw military duty, 12 did not. 28 were officers. Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Bush did not serve in the Air National Guard? Are you 100% certain that he didn't serve? Barely in the national guard? Is that like being barely pregnant?

maybe if u stood down as the worlds only military superpower then maybe u wouldnt have any enemies, look at england weve invaded conquered or somehow engaged probably every national army in the world, we dont claim to be a military superpower and we dont get attacked by anyone, for the simple reason were too vital as an econmic asset to everyone that attacking us would be stupid, and as america is probably the most powerful economic force in the world maybe people would just value you too much to attack.

My dear chess squares, how little you know. His wounds were scratches at best, wounds that didn't make him miss duty, wounds that looked to his CO's as minor or even self inflicted. I guess I should have whined till I got one when I cut myself shaving. But I guess you feel that if you scratch yourself, you deserve one. Thank you for playing, please come again.
did you even read that? i highly doubt it or you wouldve shut the hell up already

Hmm I did land in water when I was shot down, and yes some VC had fired at me, but I still couldn't tell what was going on. But when Kerry pulled him out of the drink, his fellow swift boat CO's did not say they (Kerry and Rassman) were receiving fire.
ok, then who said that they were receiving fire, name everyone

What and let our country get smacked by ALL OF OUR ENEMIES? I don't think so dude! That would be suicide! How do you think Reagan beat Carter?

If there was no one to fight then yea maybe a pacifist might be good but in this day in age, a pacifist leader is the very last thing we need.
how do you think reagan beat carter

HE WAS AN ACTOR, he can sit arounda nd bullshit all day and make you believe it

Let's try this, 30 presidents saw military duty, 12 did not. 28 were officers. Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Bush did not serve in the Air National Guard? Are you 100% certain that he didn't serve? Barely in the national guard? Is that like being barely pregnant?
bush wasi n the national guard, but after completely flight training he ended up in alabam to help his friends campaign, then after that was over he admitted he went back several times, he never saw action in a war that was drafting people, i see problems there

maybe if u stood down as the worlds only military superpower then maybe u wouldnt have any enemies, look at england weve invaded conquered or somehow engaged probably every national army in the world, we dont claim to be a military superpower and we dont get attacked by anyone, for the simple reason were too vital as an econmic asset to everyone that attacking us would be stupid, and as america is probably the most powerful economic force in the world maybe people would just value you too much to attack.

You also had a world spanning empire that we were once apart of! We fought you and defeated you! Then you tried to oppress us a second time and that one ended in a cease fire! Yes you were a super power but you lost that status. Your still militarily powerful but the US is the Super Power! The USSR was one as well but they collapsed. Now the US is on top and everyone runs to us for protection. Maybe if the UN would do its job, then maybe we wouldn't be need every day of the year in one nation or another.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you had a Pacifist PM before WWII that said, before Germany embarked on war, that we atlast can know peace in our time. Look how that turned out. He was soundly defeated for Churchill and Britian was better off for it. We elected Carter, a pacifist, and he was soundly rejected in 1980!

how do you think reagan beat carter

HE WAS AN ACTOR, he can sit arounda nd bullshit all day and make you believe it

Maybe because Carter was an Idiot and was rejected? Where do you think we would be if Carter was re-elected? USSR would still be around today. He was very soft on Defense and would negotiate with Terrorists and hostage takers as The Iranian Crisis proved.

Carter was THE WORST PRESIDENT we've ever had.

how do you think reagan beat carter

HE WAS AN ACTOR, he can sit arounda nd bullshit all day and make you believe it

Well thanks for showing how little you know of the Carter Administration.

Reagan was much better on defense and National Security than Carter and if Carter was re-elected, I believe that the cold war would still be going on today.

the fact remains, he was absent 2/3 of the time.


Gee, do you even know what that stat is from? Yes, Kerry has missed 2/3 of votes in the Senate since he's been running for president. Not before. Or do you think he should of just ran without any type of campaign? Should Bush step down as president because he's wasting all that tax payer money running his own campaign? You are taking a year and half out of 19 years and misleading or simply don't realize that's where the 2/3 absent number comes from.

Maybe because Carter was an Idiot and was rejected? Where do you think we would be if Carter was re-elected? USSR would still be around today. He was very soft on Defense and would negotiate with Terrorists and hostage takers as The Iranian Crisis proved.

Carter was THE WORST PRESIDENT we've ever had.
and reagan sold arms to iran and gave the proceeds to contra fighters in colombia

He released ALL of his Fitness reports. That is what you asked for wasn't it?

But he didn't release the ones that don't exist that give people who hate him more ammo!!! Really, he should make up more reports so people can say he is unfit!

did you even read that? i highly doubt it or you wouldve shut the hell up already

Careful chess, you're shouting. Why you sound as if the sword of Damaclease were hanging over you're head. Yes I read the post you had, yes it is the code for purple hearts, but do you not think that Kerry may have used his family power to get them? Such language from such a nice liberal. I thought you were all for tolerance, but alas I figure it's only for like minded little pukes like you.

But he didn't release the ones that don't exist that give people who hate him more ammo!!! Really, he should make up more reports so people can say he is unfit!

OMG!!! His FITREPS, those dealing with command, have not been released. NOT A ONE! Those are the ones that should be released but he isn't! Why? Because his COs considered him unfit for higher positions. Kerry knows this and that is why they are not being released.

Careful chess, you're shouting. Why you sound as if the sword of Damaclease were hanging over you're head. Yes I read the post you had, yes it is the code for purple hearts, but do you not think that Kerry may have used his family power to get them? Such language from such a nice liberal. I thought you were all for tolerance, but alas I figure it's only for like minded little pukes like you.
1) he fulfilled all requirement to be desrving of a purple heart
2) what fucking family power?

OMG!!! His FITREPS, those dealing with command, have not been released. NOT A ONE! Those are the ones that should be released but he isn't! Why? Because his COs considered him unfit for higher positions. Kerry knows this and that is why they are not being released.
there hasnt been a high ranking military officer in office since eisenhower, everyone single person since then has had kerry's rank, below kerry's, or just above

sitting around whining about he wasnt fit for higher position is asinine in this case

there hasnt been a high ranking military officer in office since eisenhower, everyone single person since then has had kerry's rank, below kerry's, or just above

sitting around whining about he wasnt fit for higher position is asinine in this case

yea but those guys had better FITREPS than Kerry Does! If Kerry wasn't running on his Vietnam War Record, I wouldn't careless but he is thus I care. I want to see the FITREP from his COs, who btw say he is unfit to lead.

ok.. i've seen the words Kerry and loose cannon used too many times for me to stand idle. If Kerry is a loose cannon.. someone pray tell me what the hell Bush is?

should Kerry allow full disclosure of his millitary record, yes or no
I agree with New Foxxinnia: why the hell not, but if I were Kerry I'd say, "I'll disclose my military record in full when Dick Cheney discloses in full his energy meetings." It's also worth pointing out that Kerry's military record is existent and well-documented.

Revenue Reconciliation Bill - Passage
Bill Number: HR 2014
Issue: Budget, Spending and Taxes
Date: 06/27/1997
Sponsor:

Roll Call Number: 0160
Bill passed
Full Member List

Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Vote to pass a bill providing a net $77 billion in tax reductions over five years. The bill includes a $500 per child tax credit, reductions in the capital gains rate, an increase in the estate tax exemption, and tuition tax credits, among other provisions.

HR 2014: The Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1997

Vote to pass a bill to provide $135 billion in tax reductions, with a total of $77 billion in net tax reductions over five years. The bill includes a $500 tax credit for children under 17 for families paying income tax whose combined income is less than $110,000. [b]For families with children between 13 and 16, the credit would go into a special educational IRA for college or private school tuition. It also includes tax credits of up to 50% of $3,000 for tuition for the first two years of college. The bill reduces the capital gains tax rate from a maximum of 28% to 20% and exempts the first $500,000 from capital gains taxes after the sale of a home. The bill also includes provisions to expand IRAs, increase the estate tax exemption from $600,000 to $1 million by 2008, and increase the estate tax deduction for individuals with a small business. The bill also includes an extension of the airline ticket tax and other provisions to raise $50 billion over five years, as well as a 20-cents per-pack increase in cigarette excise taxes. [HR 2014 was formerly S 949.]
(Bill passed 80-18 on 6/27/97)


So, Kerry stood against his party as he believed that tax cuts should actually go directly to the families instead of to a government-run program, and oppossed retaining one tax and raising another?


And that bothers you?

But wait? The republican line is that he always voted AGAINST tax cuts....but here is voting against a tax hike!


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

yea but those guys had better FITREPS than Kerry Does! If Kerry wasn't running on his Vietnam War Record, I wouldn't careless but he is thus I care. I want to see the FITREP from his COs, who btw say he is unfit to lead.
well if they had better fitreps, why didnt they outrank him?

OMG!!! His FITREPS, those dealing with command, have not been released. NOT A ONE! Those are the ones that should be released but he isn't! Why? Because his COs considered him unfit for higher positions. Kerry knows this and that is why they are not being released.


Holy "jump to conclusions" batman!

Has every one forgot the man volunteered to go to Vietnam? He could of easily of got out of going like Bush/Cheney/Rove etc. He said "I'll go" that's all I need to know. He went, so since he did volunteer to go why would he go out of his way to get three purple hearts to be sent home? It makes no sense. Further, while in the heat of battle I'm sure as they were returning enemy fire medals were the first thing on their minds :roll: Further I'm sure Kerry thought to himself, hey, gee, with these medals maybe I can run for president one day.

I think any one with half a brain can do the math, if they want to stack Kerry's record up against Bush's, well I doubt that's a road Bush supporters really want to go down, because Bush would lose.

ok as a non-american and speaking for what id believe to be the coomon non-american opinion "i'm scared" ur electing men based on there ability to kill and lead groups of killers, the army train men to fight in combat situations and make strategic decisions based on fatality predictions, now i like u believe men who do this in the name of their country are amazingly brave and honourable but i dont want one governing me cant u have human rioghts lawyers docters financial experts run for president why do they all have to be meat headed soldiors

Holy "jump to conclusions" batman!

It isn't jumping to conclusions Zepp! His COs have stated it. They have said that he is a loose Cannon and is unfit to lead. How am I jumping to conclusions.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040504a.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/3/92240.shtml

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftPhoto

Only 2 of his former COs are supporting him Zepp. That should tell us something about Kerry.

It isn't jumping to conclusions Zepp! His COs have stated it. They have said that he is a loose Cannon and is unfit to lead. How am I jumping to conclusions.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040504a.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/3/92240.shtml

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftPhoto

Only 2 of his former COs are supporting him Zepp. That should tell us something about Kerry.and you ignore my point, thanks i feel appreciated


and by the by, carter was just as heavy on the brass as reagan

It isn't jumping to conclusions Zepp! His COs have stated it. They have said that he is a loose Cannon and is unfit to lead. How am I jumping to conclusions.

loose cannon doesnt that basically mean unpredictable prone to angry outbursts and such like, to continue the batman theme 'dear criminies' hes a normal person who has emotions

Has every one forgot the man volunteered to go to Vietnam? He could of easily of got out of going like Bush/Cheney/Rove etc. He said "I'll go" that's all I need to know. He went, so since he did volunteer to go why would he go out of his way to get three purple hearts to be sent home? It makes no sense. Further, while in the heat of battle I'm sure as they were returning enemy fire medals were the first thing on their minds :roll: Further I'm sure Kerry thought to himself, hey, gee, with these medals maybe I can run for president one day.

I think any one with half a brain can do the math, if they want to stack Kerry's record up against Bush's, well I doubt that's a road Bush supporters really want to go down, because Bush would lose.

Steph, his COs consider him unfit to lead. Only 2 of his COs support him. Yea most on his boat do but comeon, COs are the ones that matter not some petty officer. His COs know more about him than we do. If they are against him, that tells me that Kerry is unfit to lead my country. I don't know how things are done in the Canadian Military but in ours, if your COs consider you unfit, you don't command.

ok as a non-american and speaking for what id believe to be the coomon non-american opinion "i'm scared" ur electing men based on there ability to kill and lead groups of killers, the army train men to fight in combat situations and make strategic decisions based on fatality predictions, now i like u believe men who do this in the name of their country are amazingly brave and honourable but i dont want one governing me cant u have human rioghts lawyers docters financial experts run for president why do they all have to be meat headed soldiors

Well there is this old adage that a man who has fought in battle and or war is less likely to choose war for his country then a man who hasn't. Because a man who has fought in a war knows what it's like and what it does to people. These people tend to use war as a last resort, not a first choice as some one who's never been to war or ever fought for any thing. It's very easy to send other people's children off to die in a war of choice when you have no idea what it means yourself.

OMG!!! His FITREPS, those dealing with command, have not been released. NOT A ONE! Those are the ones that should be released but he isn't! Why? Because his COs considered him unfit for higher positions. Kerry knows this and that is why they are not being released.


Really? I'm looking at the Fitrep that starts on page 23 of the PDF doc. It clearly labels his duties as:

Officer in charge PCF In Combat

ALL of his marks are "Above the Majority" or better, and the text accompanying it on page 22 states:

"In a combat environment often requiring independant, decisive action, Kerry was unsurpassed"

"Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader of his peer group" (i.e. the rest of the boat commanders)

There is more glowing text on page 24.


Now, care to retract your false assertion?

and you ignore my point, thanks i feel appreciated


and by the by, carter was just as heavy on the brass as reagan

Then why the hell did our military go to waste? He sliced it more than Clinton did. We were a paper tiger under Carter and one under Clinton. That was why Bin Ladin considered us a paper tiger because we did crap. They attacked us because they knew we weren't going to do much. However, they got a rude awakening and now 2/3rds of al Qaeda is either DEAD or CAPTURED. We are no longer the paper tiger al Qaeda consider us to be.

Well there is this old adage that a man who has fought in battle and or war is less likely to choose war for his country then a man who hasn't. Because a man who has fought in a war knows what it's like and what it does to people. These people tend to use war as a last resort, not a first choice as some one who's never been to war or ever fought for any thing. It's very easy to send other people's children off to die in a war of choice when you have no idea what it means yourself.

ok but then maybe over men are so terrified of war and its consequences that theyd never start one, i havent enlisted just because im busy with something else its because id rather not go to war and have never even considered it as a career

PS batman is on and hes hanging off of a helicopter while being eaten by a shark and hiting him with what appears to be a bat

Steph, his COs consider him unfit to lead. Only 2 of his COs support him. Yea most on his boat do but comeon, COs are the ones that matter not some petty officer. His COs know more about him than we do. If they are against him, that tells me that Kerry is unfit to lead my country. I don't know how things are done in the Canadian Military but in ours, if your COs consider you unfit, you don't command.

Ever hear of politics? Yeah, I thought you might of. This is nothing but a pure and simple smear campaign, I know you support Bush, but surely you're smart enough to see through the fog of bullshit?

Really? I'm looking at the Fitrep that starts on page 23 of the PDF doc. It clearly labels his duties as:

Officer in charge PCF In Combat

ALL of his marks are "Above the Majority" or better, and the text accompanying it on page 22 states:

"In a combat environment often requiring independant, decisive action, Kerry was unsurpassed"

"Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader of his peer group" (i.e. the rest of the boat commanders)

There is more glowing text on page 24.


Now, care to retract your false assertion?

Zep, you don't understand how the US Military does things! He hasn't released all of his fitreps, just the ones that paint him in a good light. Only TWO of his COs support him. The rest don't! That is all I need.

Steph, his COs consider him unfit to lead. Only 2 of his COs support him. Yea most on his boat do but comeon, COs are the ones that matter not some petty officer. His COs know more about him than we do. If they are against him, that tells me that Kerry is unfit to lead my country. I don't know how things are done in the Canadian Military but in ours, if your COs consider you unfit, you don't command.


As I just pointed out, his DIRECT CO at the time called him the leader of his peers, and stated that he "exhibited all of the traits desired of an officer in combat".


So, his crew support him, and his CO thought he was the best captain under his command at the time.

Zep, you don't understand how the US Military does things! He hasn't released all of his fitreps, just the ones that paint him in a good light. Only TWO of his COs support him. The rest don't! That is all I need.


Where is the gap Corneliu. Tell me where there is a gap in his records. Check the dates across the top of the fitreps and find me this missing period that you are stating is there.

He even included the fitrep from a CO that only led him for two weeks and said that he hadn't been under his command long enough to render an opinion.

So, back up your claim and give me the specific dates that are missing.

Then why the hell did our military go to waste? He sliced it more than Clinton did. We were a paper tiger under Carter and one under Clinton. That was why Bin Ladin considered us a paper tiger because we did crap. They attacked us because they knew we weren't going to do much. However, they got a rude awakening and now 2/3rds of al Qaeda is either DEAD or CAPTURED. We are no longer the paper tiger al Qaeda consider us to be.
1) if you dont believe me, look it up. carter had the navy equivolent of reagan's army rank

2) ROFL *points and laughs at you*

you PRETEND a war on terrorism is a war on people, NO ITS NOT. it doesnt matter how many damned people we capture, THEY WILL BE REPLACES. you idiots like to point out how its not an organized army or militia, yet you fight the war like it was

put ME in charge of the problem, i have that bitch fixed in a year

Ever hear of politics? Yeah, I thought you might of. This is nothing but a pure and simple smear campaign, I know you support Bush, but surely you're smart enough to see through the fog of bullshit?

Steph, this goes beyond a smear campaign. If it was a smear campaign then why isn't Kerry suing? Because he doesn't have a case, that's why.

If this was as libel as the DNC lawayers make it out to be then why are they threatening the cable markets that run the ad? Because they know it'll hurt Kerry. Frankly I hope the networks do run the ad and not bow down to the DNC. That is intimidation and that is in and of its self against the law. You can't intimidate a network NOT TO! That violates the US Constitution.

These people have just as much right to speak out that Kerry and Bush do so why are they being told to be silent? Is their some truth to this? There could be.

This is America Steph. Not Canada. If Kerry was dumb enough to run on his 4 months of Vietnam and nothing else then he is getting what he deserves. It is sad but alas, that is how we do things. FOIA comes into play here and the Dems don't like having the tables turned on them. If this was a republican president running on his record, the same thing would be occuring and it'll be alot worse than what is happening to Kerry. That you can take to the bank.

Zep, you don't understand how the US Military does things! He hasn't released all of his fitreps, just the ones that paint him in a good light. Only TWO of his COs support him. The rest don't! That is all I need.

Again - find me the gap in the dates.


Oh wait..... somebody SAYS that only two of his COs support him.... well, I'm sure that's good enough for you!

:rolleyes:

1) if you dont believe me, look it up. carter had the navy equivolent of reagan's army rank

2) ROFL *points and laughs at you*

you PRETEND a war on terrorism is a war on people, NO ITS NOT. it doesnt matter how many damned people we capture, THEY WILL BE REPLACES. you idiots like to point out how its not an organized army or militia, yet you fight the war like it was

put ME in charge of the problem, i have that bitch fixed in a year

Chess Squares! Where did I say this was a war on people? I never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I never stated.

Carter was a pacifist, plain and simple. You did dodge what I asked. If he was strong on defense and national security then why did he slash the Defense Budget. Why did he negotiate with terrorists? Can you answer those questions?

This is America Steph. Not Canada. If Kerry was dumb enough to run on his 4 months of Vietnam and nothing else then he is getting what he deserves. It is sad but alas, that is how we do things. FOIA comes into play here and the Dems don't like having the tables turned on them. If this was a republican president running on his record, the same thing would be occuring and it'll be alot worse than what is happening to Kerry. That you can take to the bank.


Actually, it is YOUR side who is trying to say that his Vietnam record is all that he is running on.

Strangely enough he ACTUALLY has a whole platform on a range of issues....

Go figure!

:rolleyes:

Steph, this goes beyond a smear campaign. If it was a smear campaign then why isn't Kerry suing? Because he doesn't have a case, that's why.

If this was as libel as the DNC lawayers make it out to be then why are they threatening the cable markets that run the ad? Because they know it'll hurt Kerry. Frankly I hope the networks do run the ad and not bow down to the DNC. That is intimidation and that is in and of its self against the law. You can't intimidate a network NOT TO! That violates the US Constitution.

It's like a rape case, "He said, She said" It's kind of hard to prove, but the timing of this says a lot.

Again - find me the gap in the dates.


Oh wait..... somebody SAYS that only two of his COs support him.... well, I'm sure that's good enough for you!

:rolleyes:

Zep, its a known fact that only 2 of his COs support him and the rest don't!

Frankly, I'm voting against him because he has no senate record. If he did, he would be running on that and not his Vietnam Record. A Military Record should not be run on. ONly the issues should be runned on. That or your senate record.

Kerry is only running on his Vietnam Record because that is all he has. This opens up his record to scrutiny. They don't like it because its called into question. Why? Not because of Bush! Bush has nothing to do with this. NONE AT ALL. These people probably know about Kerry's record than Kerry does.

Chess Squares! Where did I say this was a war on people? I never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I never stated.

Carter was a pacifist, plain and simple. You did dodge what I asked. If he was strong on defense and national security then why did he slash the Defense Budget. Why did he negotiate with terrorists? Can you answer those questions?
Same can be said about Reagon, he nogociated with terrorist. Reagon fans should look at and read History books before comparing how bad Carter could be.

Zep, its a known fact that only 2 of his COs support him and the rest don't!

Frankly, I'm voting against him because he has no senate record. If he did, he would be running on that and not his Vietnam Record. A Military Record should not be run on. ONly the issues should be runned on. That or your senate record.

Kerry is only running on his Vietnam Record because that is all he has. This opens up his record to scrutiny. They don't like it because its called into question. Why? Not because of Bush! Bush has nothing to do with this. NONE AT ALL. These people probably know about Kerry's record than Kerry does.
he is running on other issues, you are just a blind republican, oh well go vote for bush, you will like the neoconess

Same can be said about Reagon, he nogociated with terrorist. Reagon fans should look at and read History books before comparing how bad Carter could be.

Also, the only time Reagan ever put a uniform on was to make recruitment commercials in WWII..*LOL*

Zep, its a known fact that only 2 of his COs support him and the rest don't!


Supporting him politically NOW does not equate to what his actual CO's said about his performance then.

Yes, most military are republicans. The fact that most are therefor opposed to him politically is not terribly mind-blowing, or relevant.

Frankly, I'm voting against him because he has no senate record. If he did, he would be running on that and not his Vietnam Record. A Military Record should not be run on. ONly the issues should be runned on. That or your senate record.

Kerry is only running on his Vietnam Record because that is all he has. This opens up his record to scrutiny. They don't like it because its called into question. Why? Not because of Bush! Bush has nothing to do with this. NONE AT ALL. These people probably know about Kerry's record than Kerry does.

Well, YOU seem to be the one making a big deal about his military record and trying to cast aspersions on it. If it doesn't matter to you then why the hell are you bothering?

And, once again, Kerry is NOT just running on his vietnam record. That is an asinine statement.

Oh, and for the record, the dates covered by his fitreps - all of which are exemplary - are:

Pg1 dec 66 - mar 67
pg3 mar 67 - apr 67
pg5 jun 67 - aug 67
pg7 sep 67 - mar 68
pg9 mar68 - july 68

-- here there is a three-month gap, this would be where he went on training prior to deployment to Vietnam.

-EDIT- Sorry. Actually, the Fitrep IS there, but only states: "No marks or comments assigned. Performance satisfactory."

pg18 nov 68 - dec 68
pg20 dec 68
pg23 dec 68 - mar 69
(the above three comprise all of his time in-country in Vietnam. All of his time in command as you were so interested in but lied by saying that they were not there.)

pg25 mar 69 - jul 69
pg27 aug 69 - jan 70


So, every single one of his direct COs loved the guy while he served. EVERY SINGLE ONE!

Chess Squares! Where did I say this was a war on people? I never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I never stated.

Carter was a pacifist, plain and simple. You did dodge what I asked. If he was strong on defense and national security then why did he slash the Defense Budget. Why did he negotiate with terrorists? Can you answer those questions?
no, you implied it was a war on people by touting the supposed and assuemd fact we have caught and or executed 2/3 of al-quieda as a fact that proves how well the "war on terrorism" is going

did you ignore what i said about reagan? ok thanks go away

he is running on other issues, you are just a blind republican, oh well go vote for bush, you will like the neoconess

For christs sake, Kerry has a novel out (that's how big the book is) of what his plans are for when he's president and how he will pay for it and accomplish it. People choose willful blindness.

Also, the only time Reagan ever put a uniform on was to make recruitment commercials in WWII..*LOL*
reagan somehow actually got to the rank of major

reagan somehow actually got to the rank of major

Well it wasn't for combat.

Well it wasn't for combat.
what irad said he was removed from combat for eye sight, i guess thy didnt have glasses back then :rolleyes:

He did not release all of his fitness reports. The ones he did show are filled with many "dings". This means that he never would have been given any serious commands. To lay people and non officers his records might seem good, but to officers, his FITREP's show a different story, mainly that his own CO's did not consider him for any good promotions.

That is patently false.

His fitreps on his first tour explicitely reccommended him for promotion, and the fitrep from his time in-country clearly stated that he was considered the leader of his peers - i.e., the best swift boat captain under that command.

Dings?

Not hardly!

Ah, why bother, Republicans are going to believe what they want to believe true or not. I will say that this latest stunt by these swift boat vets against Kerry could totally backfire in their face and I hope it does.

Even the White House says they have never and will never question Kerry's military record.. probably because they don't want to make it an issue as Bush would lose that debate horribly.

I will say that this latest stunt by these swift boat vets against Kerry could totally backfire in their face and I hope it does.

You would because it'll harm Kerry. Frankly, I don't want to see any harm done to anyone but alas, Kerry is running on this and nothing else. Shame too.

Even the White House says they have never and will never question Kerry's military record.. probably because they don't want to make it an issue as Bush would lose that debate horribly.

And I applaud the white house for not doing it! I do condemn both sides for bringing up Both records. However, Kerry is running on nothin but his. I wish he wasn't but he is.

Actually, it is YOUR side who is trying to say that his Vietnam record is all that he is running on.

Strangely enough he ACTUALLY has a whole platform on a range of issues....

Go figure!

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I know. There was a thread here over the past couple days on Kerry's Senate record. Most Kerry supporters didn't want to talk about it (just like the candidate himself), and got just as pissed off over that as over this Swift Boat ad. When they did talk about it, they cast slurs at my credibility, then turned around and admitted that I was correct, but STILL won't withdraw their slanderous statements.

. However, Kerry is running on nothin but his. I wish he wasn't but he is.

If only that was true huh.. they wrote a freaking book on their plan.

http://www.johnkerry.com/plan/

You would because it'll harm Kerry. Frankly, I don't want to see any harm done to anyone but alas, Kerry is running on this and nothing else. Shame too.

And I applaud the white house for not doing it! I do condemn both sides for bringing up Both records. However, Kerry is running on nothin but his. I wish he wasn't but he is.


Nice backpedal after doing your best to smear the guy - and throwing in blatant lies in the process I might add.



Don't you hate it when things blows up in your face?

im strill terrified that the military recoreds are a concern. quite frankly if it was a concern id vote for bush as he was smart enough to figure out a way of not going to war (after all hed die come on with reaction times like that rigamortis would have set in before hed have remembered which end of the gun fires) but alas it turns out hes not so much an objector to war (i know theres a better term for an objector but i cant spell it) but could you please focus on their proposals relating to economics and world affairs please pretty please with sugar on top we'll all buy ur stupd cars if you do pretty please. thankyou!

maybe if u stood down as the worlds only military superpower then maybe u wouldnt have any enemies, look at england weve invaded conquered or somehow engaged probably every national army in the world, we dont claim to be a military superpower and we dont get attacked by anyone, for the simple reason were too vital as an econmic asset to everyone that attacking us would be stupid, and as america is probably the most powerful economic force in the world maybe people would just value you too much to attack.

I dont think standing down as the worlds only military superpower is going to fix anything big guy. and if we diverted our military spending into economics we surely would be a power house of money. that can be seen in clinton era policies. the military was not nearly as strong as it is today, but everyone that needed a job a job had a job. and then the internet company bubble burst, but that would have happened under any presidency. and as for america being too valuable to attack because of the economics behind it. yea i dont think that someone that sends thier kids out into a mine field with a plastic "key to heaven" with think about international poltics or world economics when they fly planes into some towers. and remember before they they flew the planes into the towers they used car bombs in the basement.

and your previous comment about anyone being in the military should not be able to run for president, that is wrong. I came from a nice family but college is expensive. and if you experience something first hand then you can make wiser desicions later in your life.

Nice backpedal after doing your best to smear the guy - and throwing in blatant lies in the process I might add.



Don't you hate it when things blows up in your face?


o0o0o0o0o0o Corneliu, Zeppistan so PWN j00

i do not mean any soldior should be forbidden for office but maybe they should be judged on there ethics many soldiors are trained to do a dirty job there training is so extencive their very actions become motivated by it. now many men are digusted by what they see in war but this man came through the ranks he was activly seeking promotion it seems he liked the job so much he viewed it as a career so maybe hes not the best guy, but then that mns im making his past an issue which contradicts my point so well im confused. how about we just look at his current opinion on war rather than his past actions in war.

o0o0o0o0o0o Corneliu, Zeppistan so PWN j00

Woah. Are you a mod? Does that mean I have a chance at being a crazed smartass mod? That is sooo cool.

---

The only reason why soldiers shouldn't be allowed in office is because some of them are really quite stupid and only know how to take orders, die, and "accidently" slaughter villages.

But most of them are fine young gents who just got swept up in the events during the Vietnam war. Whatever the matter, you can't disallow anyone from running for President because of pass discretions, so I really don't see the point.

What was the question again?

I still find the overall question unclear, are we talking about disclosure against Kerry's will or the army's will... or Bush's will?

Reagan never made it to Major but only because there was no opening.
Read the following and quit your squabbling over stuff you know nothing about.

The Commander-in-Chief
President Ronald Reagan
1981-1989
Several years after graduating from college and while employed as a sports announcer by a radio station in Iowa, Ronald Reagan began taking home-study U.S. Army Extension Courses. He enrolled in the program on Mar. 18, 1935 and by Dec. 1936, had completed 14 courses. He then joined the Army's Enlisted Reserve Corps at Des Moines, Iowa on April 29, 1937 as a private in Troop B, 322d Cavalry. On May 25, 1937 he was appointed a second lieutenant in the Officers' Reserve Corps of the Cavalry and on June 18, 1937, he accepted his officer's commission.

Following the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, Lt. Reagan interrupted his acting career and on April 19, 1942, went on active duty. This was not achieved without some difficulty because when Lt. Reagan took his first physical exam, he was not accepted for active duty due to eyesight difficulties. His persistence finally triumphed and he was given another exam which he passed. However, he was classified for limited service only, which permanently denied to him his ambition of serving overseas. His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation, Fort Mason, Cal., as Liaison Officer of the Port and Transportation Office.

At this time, the AAF and Warner Brothers Studios were planning a feature motion picture to be entitled "Air Force" and wanted Lt. Reagan for the leading role, so on May 15, 1942, he applied for transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF.

The transfer was approved and on June 9th, 1942, Lt. Reagan was assigned to AAF Public Relations as P.R. Officer in Burbank, Cal. and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit in Culver City.

Lt. Reagan was promoted to first lieutenant, Jan. 14, 1943, and on Feb. 26, he was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of "This is the Army" at Burbank. Following this duty, he returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit and on Jul. 22, 1943, was promoted to captain.

As the result of a personal request from the Secretary of the Treasury to the Secretary of War, Capt. Reagan was ordered on temporary duty to New York City in Jan. 1944 to participate in the opening of the 4th War Loan Drive, after which he returned to California to the 1st Motion Picture Unit. On Nov. 14, 1944, he was assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit at Culver City where he remained until the end of the war. On Sep. 8, 1945, he was ordered to Fort MacArthur, Cal. for separation, effective Dec. 9, 1945.

While on active duty with the 1st Motion Picture Unit and the 18th AAFBU, Capt. Reagan served as Personnel Officer, Post Adjutant, Executive Officer, and even Commanding Officer, often two or more at the same time. On May 15, 1945 in a memo to Gen. H.H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the AAF, Maj. Gen. James P. Hodges, the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff for Intelligence, wrote that Capt. Reagan "has proven himself to be an officer of exceptional ability, demonstrating unusual initiative, and performs his duties in a superior manner. Captain Reagan has received a 'superior' efficiency rating continually since 1 Jul., 1943." The reference to "unusual initiative" undoubtedly resulted, at least in part, from Capt. Reagan repeatedly volunteering to assist in producing and narrating AAF motion pictures, in addition to his regular duties. By the end of the war, his military units had produced 400 training films for the AAF.

In 1945, Capt. Reagan was recommended for promotion but because there was no major's vacancy in his unit at the time, the request was not approved. On Apr. 1, 1953, his commission in the Officers' Reserve Corps was terminated as required by law and his military affiliation apparently ended. On Jan. 20, 1981, however, he became Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces.

Kerry is not the best presidential canidate this country has ever seen, that is true. but Bush is worse. Nothing good has come from Bush. The country is more divided now then ever before, the budget is just ridiculous, and dont even get me started on teh PATRIOT ACT and his "faulty intel". So in the end its voting for the lesser of two evils and that is why there needs to be a 3rd party canidate that actually stands a chance to win. Kerry I hope to god wins however I feel that Bush has pocket aces and is just waiting to show them and will win the 2004 elections causing further strife in the american public.

and me myself and al, not all soldiers are meat heads. I happened to score a 96/99 on the ASVAB and 1350/1600 on the SAT and ranked in the top 15% of my state in mathamatics and english. So I say it again, Military is a wonderful thing if you dont have money for college at the moment or are just looking for direction in your life. No where else am I going to get educated, paid, see teh world, benefits for the rest of my life, and money for schooling after the my enlistment ends. however minor side effect is death. but since I am going to be a computer nerd chacnes are that wont happen to me, at least I hope.

I personally believe that the US President should have military experience. I think that it shows bravery, alliance to the nation, and because of the training one goes through in any branch of the military, it seems appropos to understanding what the ranks go through once you make it to Commander in Chief.

I don't think you necessarily have to be highly decorated, make to General or Admiral, or been at war or been injured while at war. Just the idea of having served your country seems adequate enough. After all to get into any branch you have to pass the ASVAB test and it screens out all the dummies.

Then I think all military service, special accolades and recommendations and commendations should be recorded and available for all citizens to see. Not general international public, just citizens of the country. The UN and foreign nationals have no say in who should be voted into office.

Finally I think if a candidate was dishonorably discharged from service, he or she should not be allowed to be President. As for as AWOLs or dodging drafts, those should independently be looked at before disallowing.

All the hubbub about Bush possibly going AWOL is not definite fact, until it is, leave it out the conversation. Authorities that be should be checking this out and finding out the truth as best they can.

All the hubbub about Kerry's possible making up injuries to be worse than they were to get his Medals and paying off Rassman to say Kerry saved his life is not definite either, however, because Kerry brought up his 4 month stint as part of his campaign, that means it should be looked into.

After all these military record stuff is muddled through and analyzed, the whole thing should be put out for the citizens to read and peruse. And they can make up their mind.

Until all this is done, speculation and assumptions should be left at the door. It is not fair to either candidate that these things are being done.

DON"T DRINK THE KOOLAID THE FAR LEFT AND RIGHT ARE FLINGING AT YOU.
Be analytical and think for yourself, don't let agendas feed the lion, don't believe everything you read and hear. It might after all be propaganda.


And for Heaven's sake, get a life and quit your complaining. If you don't like something get out and fix it yourself, vote.

If you think Bush is worse than Kerry, what do you think Kerry will do that will be better and get the country joined together again?

I like Bush better than Kerry. I don't think Bush lied about things that the media speculates he did. I do think Kerry made up a lot of stuff for his own benefit and would sell his kids to get farther along if he could. I like Bush's Pro Life stance. And Kerry is not a good Catholic by his voting record on abortion, gay marriage and partial birth abortion stances. (I am Catholic and his defiance to his Church bugs me a great deal).

By the way, if more Islamic militants are caught in the US because of the Patriot Act, don't you think that is a good thing? Afterall only Saudis were the ones that hijacked the 4 planes and destroyed 3 buildings. It wasn't blonde hair, blue eyed women, or little ole men from the Amish country. They were Muslim, they were militants, they were part of Al qeda, and they were Saudis. If I were a Saudi I would expect people to question me.

If I lived in a black neighboorhood and black young men every night were caught robbing banks, raping women and killing other black men, I would guess that me as a black man would look suspicious. It is normal human nature to suspect people that match to certain characteristics when bad things happen.

If it were random violence, with all different ages, races, and ethnicities doing the evil, then the Patriot act wouldn't work as well. You'd have to check EVERYONE.

Give me a freakin break about think the Patriot Act takes away your rights as an American. If you did nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. If you're out robbing banks, and in a gang, and in a mosque where some Muslim guys with guns are right now, you might be suspect. It is common sense to check these things out depending on all the circumstances.

If little ole women, and 16 year old blonde girls and 90 year old deaf men are being harrassed by the FBI and claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right, then I'd say get them a lawyer, their rights are being taken away.

But I don't here of that.

(I don't know any Muslims myself)

Reagan never made it to Major but only because there was no opening.
Read the following and quit your squabbling over stuff you know nothing about.

The Commander-in-Chief
President Ronald Reagan
1981-1989
Several years after graduating from college and while employed as a sports announcer by a radio station in Iowa, Ronald Reagan began taking home-study U.S. Army Extension Courses. He enrolled in the program on Mar. 18, 1935 and by Dec. 1936, had completed 14 courses. He then joined the Army's Enlisted Reserve Corps at Des Moines, Iowa on April 29, 1937 as a private in Troop B, 322d Cavalry. On May 25, 1937 he was appointed a second lieutenant in the Officers' Reserve Corps of the Cavalry and on June 18, 1937, he accepted his officer's commission.

Following the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, Lt. Reagan interrupted his acting career and on April 19, 1942, went on active duty. This was not achieved without some difficulty because when Lt. Reagan took his first physical exam, he was not accepted for active duty due to eyesight difficulties. His persistence finally triumphed and he was given another exam which he passed. However, he was classified for limited service only, which permanently denied to him his ambition of serving overseas. His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation, Fort Mason, Cal., as Liaison Officer of the Port and Transportation Office.

At this time, the AAF and Warner Brothers Studios were planning a feature motion picture to be entitled "Air Force" and wanted Lt. Reagan for the leading role, so on May 15, 1942, he applied for transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF.

The transfer was approved and on June 9th, 1942, Lt. Reagan was assigned to AAF Public Relations as P.R. Officer in Burbank, Cal. and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit in Culver City.

Lt. Reagan was promoted to first lieutenant, Jan. 14, 1943, and on Feb. 26, he was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of "This is the Army" at Burbank. Following this duty, he returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit and on Jul. 22, 1943, was promoted to captain.

As the result of a personal request from the Secretary of the Treasury to the Secretary of War, Capt. Reagan was ordered on temporary duty to New York City in Jan. 1944 to participate in the opening of the 4th War Loan Drive, after which he returned to California to the 1st Motion Picture Unit. On Nov. 14, 1944, he was assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit at Culver City where he remained until the end of the war. On Sep. 8, 1945, he was ordered to Fort MacArthur, Cal. for separation, effective Dec. 9, 1945.

While on active duty with the 1st Motion Picture Unit and the 18th AAFBU, Capt. Reagan served as Personnel Officer, Post Adjutant, Executive Officer, and even Commanding Officer, often two or more at the same time. On May 15, 1945 in a memo to Gen. H.H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the AAF, Maj. Gen. James P. Hodges, the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff for Intelligence, wrote that Capt. Reagan "has proven himself to be an officer of exceptional ability, demonstrating unusual initiative, and performs his duties in a superior manner. Captain Reagan has received a 'superior' efficiency rating continually since 1 Jul., 1943." The reference to "unusual initiative" undoubtedly resulted, at least in part, from Capt. Reagan repeatedly volunteering to assist in producing and narrating AAF motion pictures, in addition to his regular duties. By the end of the war, his military units had produced 400 training films for the AAF.

In 1945, Capt. Reagan was recommended for promotion but because there was no major's vacancy in his unit at the time, the request was not approved. On Apr. 1, 1953, his commission in the Officers' Reserve Corps was terminated as required by law and his military affiliation apparently ended. On Jan. 20, 1981, however, he became Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces.
the thing i looked up said major so fucking sorry ill link you if you want

I am an aethist who despises organized religion because of what it does. I am a Pro-lifer. a baby brought into the world at a premature time not only messes with the parents but chances are the baby will not be a happy person that is a pillar of a community by any means. But you are right, he didnt lie, lie is a little strong. he greatly over exagerated the threat of Iraq and misdirected the public. Iraq was a hell hole of human rights, but so is 3/4 of the world. and iraq did NOT train or harbor terrorists, they stood in stark contrast of each others agendas. and you say if I have nothing to fear then I shouldnt fear the PATRIOT ACT. Is that what it comes down to? I have to prove my innocence before im being charged with anything? I understand being suspect but it is wrong to put someone next to a chart and say well your skin is this brown so we need to keep an eye on you. And this bill can be used as an example to make more intrusive Big Brother Bills and then who teh hell knows, maybe you would need Biometrics to get a passport and those biometrics are databased and are used by someone who shouldnt have them. America is a free nation and because of that we are open to attacks. a lot of people dont like this, but unless if you feel like being Isreal who has curfews and well armed police everywhere we should expect random terrorist actions for the next 50 years.

and ive got a question? why does defiance of church irk you? church and state should NEVER be one and the same. leaders should not be basing thier orders on god. remember god is always on your side. every one has always said that whether it was teh good the bad or the ugly

I still find the overall question unclear, are we talking about disclosure against Kerry's will or the army's will... or Bush's will?
Kerry would have to allow it

Also, the only time Reagan ever put a uniform on was to make recruitment commercials in WWII..*LOL*

Hmm do you even know anything about military service? Reagan was a Captain in the Army, sure his job was stateside making propaganda films and being in recruitment drives. These jobs are very important to keeping the troops morale high, and keeping the civilians willing to sacrifice for the good of the nation.

Hmm do you even know anything about military service? Reagan was a Captain in the Army, sure his job was stateside making propaganda films and being in recruitment drives. These jobs are very important to keeping the troops morale high, and keeping the civilians willing to sacrifice for the good of the nation.

Umm, I know that, I've seen F9/11 and Michael Moore trying to do the same! ;)

Well there is this old adage that a man who has fought in battle and or war is less likely to choose war for his country then a man who hasn't. Because a man who has fought in a war knows what it's like and what it does to people. These people tend to use war as a last resort, not a first choice as some one who's never been to war or ever fought for any thing. It's very easy to send other people's children off to die in a war of choice when you have no idea what it means yourself.

Combat and war does bring something out of you. It shows what kind of a man you are deep down inside, perhaps it brings up your animal instinct. There is nothing quite as exciting as having someone trying to kill you. I truly liked what I did back then, and if I had to do it over again I would. I guess because I was a born daredevil, I had to be since I sometimes enjoyed the stress while dancing with a SAM near Hanoi.

Your logic really doesn't make sense, considering how many presidents have served in wartime, and how many wars we have had. When you are the leader of the free world most likely you are an egomaniac, and couldn't give a damn about some lowly soldier. You only care about being elected

Combat and war does bring something out of you. It shows what kind of a man you are deep down inside, perhaps it brings up your animal instinct. There is nothing quite as exciting as having someone trying to kill you. I truly liked what I did back then, and if I had to do it over again I would. I guess because I was a born daredevil, I had to be since I sometimes enjoyed the stress while dancing with a SAM near Hanoi.

Your logic really doesn't make sense, considering how many presidents have served in wartime, and how many wars we have had. When you are the leader of the free world most likely you are an egomaniac, and couldn't give a damn about some lowly soldier. You only care about being elected

...Wait, are you saying you enjoy people trying to kill you, or killing people?

'Cause I'm sure if you talked to some media heads, you could have people trying to kill you without you killing them in return.

Really? I'm looking at the Fitrep that starts on page 23 of the PDF doc. It clearly labels his duties as:

Officer in charge PCF In Combat

ALL of his marks are "Above the Majority" or better, and the text accompanying it on page 22 states:

"In a combat environment often requiring independant, decisive action, Kerry was unsurpassed"

"Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader of his peer group" (i.e. the rest of the boat commanders)

There is more glowing text on page 24.


Now, care to retract your false assertion?

Are you an officer in the military? Do you know how to read a FITREP? A FITREP from the Navy to be exact? To someone not educated in these things, it is hard to tell what a poor, an average, or a high mark is. Why did Kerry's CO's not have him in line for any good promotions?

If you cared to look at the rest of his FITREP's you would see he was not a good leader, and was mediocre at best. He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership. When you are educated enough to be able to translate military jargon, then talk of such matters.

...Wait, are you saying you enjoy people trying to kill you, or killing people?

'Cause I'm sure if you talked to some media heads, you could have people trying to kill you without you killing them in return.

Well, I wouldn't have volunteered for the 355th TFW if I was afraid of someone trying to kill me. It was a great time in my life, sure I didn't like being hunted like an animal when my pilot and I were shot down, cause we were both armed with .38's while charlie had AK's, but it was worth it. It is quite a rush knowing that you survived something that could have killed you, and then the next day going out and doing it again. People do enlist during war time you know, what would make them do it? The pay? No for many it is patriotism and a sense of adventure.

It didn't bother me when they would try to blow us out of the sky, I guess I was a loose cannon otherwise why would people have volunteered for the duty that we did since it was pretty much considered a suicide mission. I don't know if you've experienced combat, but if not then I don't think you'd understand.

Combat and war does bring something out of you. It shows what kind of a man you are deep down inside, perhaps it brings up your animal instinct. There is nothing quite as exciting as having someone trying to kill you. I truly liked what I did back then, and if I had to do it over again I would. I guess because I was a born daredevil, I had to be since I sometimes enjoyed the stress while dancing with a SAM near Hanoi.

Your logic really doesn't make sense, considering how many presidents have served in wartime, and how many wars we have had. When you are the leader of the free world most likely you are an egomaniac, and couldn't give a damn about some lowly soldier. You only care about being elected

My logic makes perfect sense, if you disagree, perhaps I should give you my political science professor's phone number and you can take it up with him... :rolleyes:

Just because some one has been in the military I will agree that doesn't make them the sharpest tool in the shed, however given Kerry's life out-side of the military would certainly put him in that rare class of ex-military people who have strived to make a difference, the man went to Yale, had a very successful bout in Massachusetts as a prosecutor putting the bad guys away. Sure, he could of went on to get stoned and drunk every night of the week like Mr. Bush, but no, he decided to further serve his country, like him, hate him, you can't deny that basic fact whether you agree with his positions or not.

I agree, I know many military, even dated an officer in my youth, we lived on base in the PMQ's, I won't argue the average military person is not that smart as a general rule, they do what they are told to do, not much room for free thought. It's actually why I left him.. but Kerry, like McCain and others who have been leaders are the exception to that rule. I know, I lived it.

Are you an officer in the military? Do you know how to read a FITREP? A FITREP from the Navy to be exact? To someone not educated in these things, it is hard to tell what a poor, an average, or a high mark is. Why did Kerry's CO's not have him in line for any good promotions?

If you cared to look at the rest of his FITREP's you would see he was not a good leader, and was mediocre at best. He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership. When you are educated enough to be able to translate military jargon, then talk of such matters.

I'll basically let Zep answer this, however since he's my husband and I look every day at the degrees he's earned on the wall, I suggest Zep is probably more educated then you've ever been, as I believe I am probably as well.. with all due respect.

I'll basically let Zep answer this, however since he's my husband and I look every day at the degrees he's earned on the wall, I suggest Zep is probably more educated then you've ever been, as I believe I am probably as well.. with all due respect.

You really are egotistical are you? Has he served in the US Military? Has he served in the Canadian Military? HannibalSmith here was in the military and has far more experience in these matters than you or your husband Zep. Unless you know precisely what your talking about regarding a MILITARY FITREP, don't try to question it.

In a FITREP, and Hannibal correct me if I'm wrong, "above the majority" doesn't mean he was the best. It means that he was better than average but below a certain mark. Does that make Kerry eligible for commands? Not really. He wasn't recommended for good promotions. My father received a definite promote from his CO, the CO's CO and a General on one of his FITREPs and they pinned him with his LC Oakleaf. A FITREP is your lifeblood in the Military. If you have a mediocre one, you won't go anywhere. Looks like that is what happened with Kerry. His FITREP wasn't fit for higher positions of authority.

How do I know some of this? My dad actually explained how a FITREP is done.

I'll basically let Zep answer this, however since he's my husband and I look every day at the degrees he's earned on the wall, I suggest Zep is probably more educated then you've ever been, as I believe I am probably as well.. with all due respect.

Well if you went to a Canadian University, then I fell sorry for you. BTW I'm Air Force class of 70, number 12 in my class. Became EWO while stationed in California, am an expert in all types of radar. After Vietnam, graduated with a Master's in Electrical Engineering from Lehigh University, hold three patents in radar technologies related to the F-15. Can troubleshoot and rebuild most Nato radar sets, can fly a jet above the speed of sound, can bring said jet out of a supersonic stall. I can also read and speak Vietnamese. I can repair and troubleshoot my own F-105D's powerplant, which I own and still maintain to this day. I opened my own dream business in 1990, a hunting and fishing lodge here in Montana, can track and recognize an animal just from their tracks. Plus can survive in the wilderness if needed with only a knife.

Can you or your husband do any of these things? Probably not since you seem to be on your computer way to much. Nice amount of posts by the way. I'm sure you are both geniuses. With all do respect.

Well if you went to a Canadian University, then I fell sorry for you. BTW I'm Air Force class of 70, number 12 in my class. Became EWO while stationed in California, am an expert in all types of radar. After Vietnam, graduated with a Master's in Electrical Engineering from Lehigh University, hold three patents in radar technologies related to the F-15. Can troubleshoot and rebuild most Nato radar sets, can fly a jet above the speed of sound, can bring said jet out of a supersonic stall. I can also read and speak Vietnamese. I can repair and troubleshoot my own F-105D's powerplant, which I own and still maintain to this day. I opened my own dream business in 1990, a hunting and fishing lodge here in Montana, can track and recognize an animal just from their tracks. Plus can survive in the wilderness if needed with only a knife.

Can you or your husband do any of these things? Probably not since you seem to be on your computer way to much. Nice amount of posts by the way. I'm sure you are both geniuses. With all do respect.

I have an Uncle that Graduated from the AFA in '73 Hannible! He also a Lt. Col in the USAF. Both My dad and my uncle are getting out when this deployment is over.

And very nice resume sir. Thanks again for serving our Country.

You really are egotistical are you?

Hun, if you ever earn as many plaques on the wall that Zep and I have, you will be too!

I have an Uncle that Graduated from the AFA in '73 Hannible! He also a Lt. Col in the USAF. Both My dad and my uncle are getting out when this deployment is over.

And very nice resume sir. Thanks again for serving our Country.

Well tell your uncle a Wild Weasel said thanks! It was my pleasure to serve this great land of ours.

BTW I ended as a Lt Col as well.

Hun, if you ever earn as many plaques on the wall that Zep and I have, you will be too!

I guess you haven't seen MY WALL full of academic awards nor my sister's for that matter. We are good educationally too but we don't flaunt our abilities. Yea she isn't out of highschool and I'm still working on my bachelors but the fact of the matter is Steph, we are smart people but we don't tell people we're smart.

Hun, if you ever earn as many plaques on the wall that Zep and I have, you will be too!


Book smarts are one thing, but hands on intelligence is another. Just like karate belts, belts are only good for holding up your pants.

BTW Gov't contracts let me basically retire when I was 45.

Well tell your uncle a Wild Weasel said thanks! It was my pleasure to serve this great land of ours.

BTW I ended as a Lt Col as well.

I'll tell my uncle that! Though he isn't in fighters he does other, but just as important duties. He is a Nav on the C-130s but he loves the Air Force and all the jobs they perform! :)

Well if you went to a Canadian University, then I fell sorry for you. BTW I'm Air Force class of 70, number 12 in my class. Became EWO while stationed in California, am an expert in all types of radar. After Vietnam, graduated with a Master's in Electrical Engineering from Lehigh University, hold three patents in radar technologies related to the F-15. Can troubleshoot and rebuild most Nato radar sets, can fly a jet above the speed of sound, can bring said jet out of a supersonic stall. I can also read and speak Vietnamese. I can repair and troubleshoot my own F-105D's powerplant, which I own and still maintain to this day. I opened my own dream business in 1990, a hunting and fishing lodge here in Montana, can track and recognize an animal just from their tracks. Plus can survive in the wilderness if needed with only a knife.

Can you or your husband do any of these things? Probably not since you seem to be on your computer way to much. Nice amount of posts by the way. I'm sure you are both geniuses. With all do respect.

Well since my husband is on holidays right now, he has more time, however he owns his own company, so I guess he can pretty much do as he pleases' huh..

As for me, I'm on my Ph.D in political science. However my husband and I had a baby in Jan. So I have put off my studies until fall if you must know. However, in my spare time I still manage to be the director of marketing of an IT firm.. just for fun.. what have you done? An army grunt? Oh yes, I'm sure my husband and I are just so envious of you!

Well since my husband is on holidays right now, he has more time, however he owns his own company, so I guess he can pretty much do as he pleases' huh..

As for me, I'm on my Ph.D in political science. However my husband and I had a baby in Jan. So I have put off my studies until fall if you must know. However, in my spare time I still manage to be the director of marketing of an IT firm.. just for fun.. what have you done? An army grunt? Oh yes, I'm sure my husband and I are just so envious of you!

HAHA!! Never tell an Air Forcer he's an Army Grunt! They hate that! LOL You really have no idea do you about the seperation of the military! HAHAHAHA!

The USAF is a seperate Branch of the Service. We did have the AAF but that split to form the USAF! The USA has been around since our founding as has the USN! Read up on it steph, its interesting reading. LOL!

BTW, I'm an amature Military Historian!

I voted yes, but only on the condition that President Bush discloses his own record.

HAHA!! Never tell an Air Forcer he's an Army Grunt! They hate that! LOL You really have no idea do you about the seperation of the military! HAHAHAHA!

The USAF is a seperate Branch of the Service. We did have the AAF but that split to form the USAF! The USA has been around since our founding as has the USN! Read up on it steph, its interesting reading. LOL!

BTW, I'm an amature Military Historian!

Yes, all branches of the military follow orders derived from people who make policy. See, I won't be in any branch of the military, I'll be the one helping form the policy! :rolleyes:

His military service was pretty average for any lueitenant. I would much rather hear about how he voted in the Senate than back when he served in Vietnam. He sure didn't say a word about it during the convention.

If you ask me, Kerry is full of crap.

His military service was pretty average for any lueitenant. I would much rather hear about how he voted in the Senate than back when he served in Vietnam. He sure didn't say a word about it during the convention.

If you ask me, Kerry is full of crap.

Your right, he didn't talk about his Senate Record. He spent more time on his Vietnam record and what he thinks he can get away with promising than his Senate record.

Frankly, he won't be able to afford half of what he's promising anyway.

He can afford it. He'll just raise taxes to support all of the things he's throwing money at.

Your right, he didn't talk about his Senate Record. He spent more time on his Vietnam record and what he thinks he can get away with promising than his Senate record.

Frankly, he won't be able to afford half of what he's promising anyway.

What the heck are all of you going to do when Kerry win's the election? *LOL*

What the heck are all of you going to do when Kerry win's the election? *LOL*

IF Kerry wins the election, I'll watch him carefully and hope he does turn out to be a good one. If he isn't, then he'll be a one term President. If he turns out to be a good president, then I'll be grateful to being wrong. And before you jump on this, getting re-elected doesnt mean he was a good president.

What the heck are all of you going to do when Kerry win's the election? *LOL*

I bet he won't win. The same thing that happened in Florida in 2000 is gonna happen somewhere else.

It shall all work out for the best. Bush just needs to be more decisive and stand up for what he believes is right.

HAHA!! Never tell an Air Forcer he's an Army Grunt! They hate that! LOL You really have no idea do you about the seperation of the military! HAHAHAHA!

The USAF is a seperate Branch of the Service. We did have the AAF but that split to form the USAF! The USA has been around since our founding as has the USN! Read up on it steph, its interesting reading. LOL!

BTW, I'm an amature Military Historian!
he's still a little disrespectful punkassgrunt, you would think the army taught manners, some one seemed to suggest that earlier

oh yeah and hears a history lesson for you mr "historian" the air force didnt exist sicne the beginning of the nation, hell it didint exist till what the early 1920s?

IF Kerry wins the election, I'll watch him carefully and hope he does turn out to be a good one. If he isn't, then he'll be a one term President. If he turns out to be a good president, then I'll be grateful to being wrong. And before you jump on this, getting re-elected doesnt mean he was a good president.

Despite all arguments, the USA at the moment does not, repeat does not have an elected president. Whether you wish to admit that or not is your choice. I won't argue the point with you.

I bet he won't win. The same thing that happened in Florida in 2000 is gonna happen somewhere else.

It shall all work out for the best. Bush just needs to be more decisive and stand up for what he believes is right.

With this I agree Olaxcroxa. Bush does need to be more decisive. I'm waiting for the debates for this to happen. He is always underestimated because of his "indecisiveness" and that is what cost Gore in the end. Gore should've won in a walk but the debates cost him bigtime.

He can afford it. He'll just raise taxes to support all of the things he's throwing money at.
as opposed to cutting taxes and introducing super expensive programs?
better to fund it now than throw imaginary monye at it and fuckt he nation in the future

he's still a little disrespectful punkassgrunt, you would think the army taught manners, some one seemed to suggest that earlier

oh yeah and hears a history lesson for you mr "historian" the air force didnt exist sicne the beginning of the nation, hell it didint exist till what the early 1920s?

He's AIR FORCE not Army! Get the branches of Service right!

Did I say it existed when we formed? NO I didn't! The US Army though has been around since our founding as has the USN! The Marines soon followed. When the Airplane was invented then the AAF was formed. You would've seen that if you bothered to read my post. I do know my history Chess Squares, I suggest you learn it.

IF Kerry wins the election, I'll watch him carefully and hope he does turn out to be a good one. If he isn't, then he'll be a one term President. If he turns out to be a good president, then I'll be grateful to being wrong. And before you jump on this, getting re-elected doesnt mean he was a good president.

Sure, Bush isn't the best orator in the world, but the so-called mistakes as president weren't really all they were cracked up to be. They blame him for rushing into the war, yet after 9/11 the public was calling for us to retaliate. Even then, it was around like February when we started to fight this war. It wasn't because of weather. It was because Bush wanted to be sure what he was getting into.

Despite all arguments, the USA at the moment does not, repeat does not have an elected president. Whether you wish to admit that or not is your choice. I won't argue the point with you.

Your right, I won't argue this because it isn't worth rehashing! I wish the Dems felt that same way. That is another reason why I'm voting Bush! I'm tired of hearing about Florida!

Sure, Bush isn't the best orator in the world, but the so-called mistakes as president weren't really all they were cracked up to be. They blame him for rushing into the war, yet after 9/11 the public was calling for us to retaliate. Even then, it was around like February when we started to fight this war. It wasn't because of weather. It was because Bush wanted to be sure what he was getting into.

Actually Afghanistan started in October 2001! October 7th to be precise. What they are accusing Bush of rushing into war was over Iraq though we had 12 years of UN Res Violation after another. That was 12 years to long and under the Cease-fire agreement, any member of the UN SC can wage war on Iraq. We took that and went in. But alas, people don't seem to recognize that.

He's AIR FORCE not Army! Get the branches of Service right!

Did I say it existed when we formed? NO I didn't! The US Army though has been around since our founding as has the USN! The Marines soon followed. When the Airplane was invented then the AAF was formed. You would've seen that if you bothered to read my post. I do know my history Chess Squares, I suggest you learn it.
lets jsut replace the word army with military

Are you an officer in the military? Do you know how to read a FITREP? A FITREP from the Navy to be exact? To someone not educated in these things, it is hard to tell what a poor, an average, or a high mark is. Why did Kerry's CO's not have him in line for any good promotions?


You know, the thing that always amazes me about the internet is that people can call themselves anything they want. You can call yourself a vet who knows how to read these things. I can call myself that too.

What does that prove?

NOTHING!

Oh, and Corneliu - it's nice of you to jump on the bandwagon to try and exact a little revenge AFTER I slapped you around with your lie that his fitreps for his commands were not included in the file.

You and your sister are quite a pair. Attempting to quote on the contents of documents when you obviously have no flippin clue. I've nailed her for that before too.

So how about you either stick to the discussion at hand, or back off. Bandwagoneering with somebody else's debate after you get your ass handed to you is just.... lame.

If you cared to look at the rest of his FITREP's you would see he was not a good leader, and was mediocre at best. He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership. When you are educated enough to be able to translate military jargon, then talk of such matters.

Really?

The first of his Fitreps has to do with the shore component of his training. Indeed it clearly states which sections are left blank because he was only observed as a student. I WILL agree that is noteably middle of the class, however I also note the checkbox next to: "HAve minor weaknesses been discussed with officer" has the one marked "Not applicable" checked. If there was going to be a "Ding", this would NOT be the case.

Or do you mean the after his first posting? (page 8) :


A most capable officer who demonstrates a high degree of maturity beyond his age and experience....his enthousiasm for the Navy and his work are contagiuos and his men are ardent supporters of him. His division's morale is one of the best on the ship due to his dynamic leadership ..... qualified now as an OOD(I). He will qualify EARLY for an OOD(F) and is highly reccommended for promotion to LT(jg)


Oh yeah - THAT sure sounds like a guy that his COs were dinging.... :rolleyes:


Or do you mean the Fitrep after he got to the Gulf on Tomkin? (pg 11)


Kerry is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.... For his age and experience he writes and speaks exceedingly well. His performance as ships PAO officer has been outstanding. He has great potential and should develop into an outstanding officer in a minimum amount of time. His performance of duty significantly contributed to GRIDLEY receiving the attached commendatory messages and correspondance. He is reccommended for promotion

Dang... ANOTHER reccommendation for promotion....and thanks for things which reflected well on the boat. Yeah - I see what you mean about what they felt about his competence.... :rolleyes:

Then we get to his first command on page 18, but he was not there very long. So all Hibbard had to say was:
The short period that LtJG Kerry was attached to Coastal Division 14 prevents further evaluation.

OK - a short stint where his CO did not have time to evaluate him. Not a ding. Just a "not applicable". It should be noted though that those few items not marked "not observed" (military speak for unable to evaluate - not a knock) were all marked "above the majority" or better.


Then comes his main evaluation from Vietnam where he gets praised up the ying-yang by Elliot. (p22)

Praises him for his decision making ability including special mention of an even in which enemy forces "were routed".
Comments that he is the "emerging leader of the group"
Praises his intitiaive to take it upon himself to learn Vietnamese and credits him being "instrumental in the successfull Vietnamese training programs", i.e. training the local allies.

More glowing words on pg 24.


Now, much as with Corneliu, I'm not sure where you are pulling your "facts" out of the document.

And I'm not the one here claiming special knowledge in an attempt to bolster my argument. That IS what you are doing with your cracks as to the fitness of others to evaluate these reports. If you are a vet, thank you. If you're just another internet BS artist - I could care less.

All I do is actually point to page numbers and pull quotes out to support my argument rather than pull unsupported statements out of my butt....

lets jsut replace the word army with military

that would be better!

as opposed to cutting taxes and introducing super expensive programs?
better to fund it now than throw imaginary monye at it and fuckt he nation in the future

Putting the country into more debt doesn't matter to Democrats. It is around what, 4 TRILLION dollars!

Putting the country into more debt doesn't matter to Democrats. It is around what, 4 TRILLION dollars!

Ah, not so fast, that was the Republicans who did that, not the Democrats. Read up on it, you might find it earth shaking, or at least eye opening.

Putting the country into more debt doesn't matter to Democrats. It is around what, 4 TRILLION dollars!
you realize the SEVEN TRILLION debt was created between basically george w. bush and ronald reagan alone, right

In fact, I'll re-post that link to the complete set of Kerry's Fitreps:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf

Can ANYONE point me to this supposed page where : "He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership."



Somebody?



Anybody?

you realize the SEVEN TRILLION debt was created between basically george w. bush and ronald reagan alone, right

Where the hell did you get that information anyway?

Zep, I can read a fitRep abit better than you. My Mom actually served in Personel in the military, USAF to be precise. My dad has taught me how to read it and my mom can interpret it without batting an eyelash because she has seen them.

Kerry's record isn't the best. Hannible can attest to that. As stated in the post that you so blifully choose to ignore, "Above the Majority" means that he is a step above Average. That is what that means. He wasn't bad, nor was he average. He was above average but not good either.

Highly recommended for Promotion doesn't mean really anything. My father had a Definite Promote on him. That means they should Promote him. Alas, that didn't help my Unlce get his Colonel Rank. My dad isn't up for Colonel yet. A Highly recommended for Promotion is a step below that I think. All this shows is that the officer who evaluates him thinks that he should get it. That doesn't mean that it will happen.

Now on the next one, you say he was recommended for promotion! What happened to Highly Recommended? He was downgraded from Highly to just Recommended. Means that his CO thinks a promotion is warrented but that its purely up to his superiors. Recommended for Promotion is a step below Highly Recommended. But since you are ignorant of how military rates promotions, I don't think you understand that. In other words, being recommended for promotion isn't that great. Most People get this. Highly recommended is a step above and, like "above the Majority", is above Average. Definite Promote is for those that Deserve it the most.

In fact, I'll re-post that link to the complete set of Kerry's Fitreps:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf

Can ANYONE point me to this supposed page where : "He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership."



Somebody?



Anybody?

Please help me. What is so friggin important about what he did in the military?

Where the hell did you get that information anyway?
i like to call it the news, and uhh history

Zep, I can read a fitRep abit better than you. My Mom actually served in Personel in the military, USAF to be precise. My dad has taught me how to read it and my mom can interpret it without batting an eyelash because she has seen them.

Kerry's record isn't the best. Hannible can attest to that. As stated in the post that you so blifully choose to ignore, "Above the Majority" means that he is a step above Average. That is what that means. He wasn't bad, nor was he average. He was above average but not good either.

Highly recommended for Promotion doesn't mean really anything. My father had a Definite Promote on him. That means they should Promote him. Alas, that didn't help my Unlce get his Colonel Rank. My dad isn't up for Colonel yet. A Highly recommended for Promotion is a step below that I think. All this shows is that the officer who evaluates him thinks that he should get it. That doesn't mean that it will happen.

Now on the next one, you say he was recommended for promotion! What happened to Highly Recommended? He was downgraded from Highly to just Recommended. Means that his CO thinks a promotion is warrented but that its purely up to his superiors. Recommended for Promotion is a step below Highly Recommended. But since you are ignorant of how military rates promotions, I don't think you understand that. In other words, being recommended for promotion isn't that great. Most People get this. Highly recommended is a step above and, like "above the Majority", is above Average. Definite Promote is for those that Deserve it the most.

Your mother and father's experience notwhithstanding - what the hell makes you think that they are unique in their ability to read these fitreps? And which of these reccommendations for promotion qualifies as "He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership."

If you want to argue that he wasn't the second coming of MacArthur - hey, I'll go along with that. I'm not claiming he was either.

But neither you nor Hannibal have successfully pointed to a single ding or indication of dissappoinment at his duties by his CO's. Certainly not to the extent that Hannibal is attempting to smear him.

-Z-

i like to call it the news, and uhh history

Now who told you that you can trust the news. The're all run by democrat network CEOs.

Please help me. What is so friggin important about what he did in the military?

I don't think it IS terribly important. Interestinlgy enough Corneliu said the same thing.... AFTER he tried bashin Kerry about his. It sometimes seems that the Republican's only know how to smear their opposition as a campaign tactic, and it burns me when they sink this low.

And I have this odd sense of morality in that when somebody makes a blatantly false statement against somebody I feel compelled to jump in and correct the error. Especially when it seems to be done with malice aforethought.

Now who told you that you can trust the news. The're all run by democrat network CEOs.

There is more to "the news" than just TV you know....

Your mother and father's experience notwhithstanding - what the hell makes you think that they are unique in their ability to read these fitreps? And which of these reccommendations is so bad as to qualify for the statement "He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership."

If you want to argue that he wasn't the second coming of MacArthur - hey, I'll go along with that. I'm not claiming he was either.

But neither you nor Hannibal have successfully pointed to a single ding or indication of dissappoinment at his duties by his CO's. Certainly not to the extent that Hannibal is attempting to smear him.

-Z-

Zep, unless you know how to interpret these things, don't go quoting it. the average person gets a recommended for promotion. That means that they've met the requirements for the next rank. Highly Recommended for promotion is a step above that. They have exceeded some of the requirements for promotion. Definite Promote means they have outshone themselves and should be promoted. My dad is unique because he has to fill them out for everyone in his unit so I think that qualifies as having experience. As for what qualifies, I think getting downgraded from Highly recommended to Recommended qualifies in that regard. He want from slightly above standard down to standard. If he had such a glowing report as you are stating, then he would've been passed on to better commands and he wasn't.

As for dings, as stated, he went from Highly recommended to Recommended. Why? Why the drop? Can you answer that?

I don't think it IS terribly important. Interestinlgy enough Corneliu said the same thing.... AFTER he tried bashin Kerry about his. It sometimes seems that the Republican's only know how to smear their opposition as a campaign tactic, and it burns me when they sink this low.

And I have this odd sense of morality in that when somebody makes a blatantly false statement against somebody I feel compelled to jump in and correct the error. Especially when it seems to be done with malice aforethought.

As we both know that's politics. As low as BOTH SIDES go, it's the way they choose to campaign. I don't like it either.

i don't know what a person's military record has got to do with his capabilities as a president. for example, bush was awol during the vietnam war, but he is still militaristic.


Yeah he is... as HIS ass cant be shot. What has bush done in office except start wars? I feel he mishandled 9/11, and started a war based on a lie. If bush would have said I think Saadam is a threat, and we should eliminate the threat" insted of harping on non existant WMD, I wouldnt mind so much, but the fact is he flat out lied.

I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Im closer to the Reform party (pre-buchanon (sp?)), but bottom line, a liar is a liar, and i wont support him.

There is more to "the news" than just TV you know....

Television IS the main source in which people hear news from. But we all know the networks inevitably take a side and it is usually with democrats.

I'm not ignorant, I realize that there are other forms of news than television.

What has bush done in office except start wars?
Even if you hate Bush, this shouldn't be a problem. Anti-Bush fanatics have no problem rolling out biased, twisted lists of all that Bush has done, take a look, as it seems your no Bush fan it'll probably be to your liking. Some common themes in the smear campaign :

"Take from the poor give to the rich"
"Bankrupt the USA"
"Let oil interests rule the country"
"Restrict civil liberties"

etc...

Even if you hate Bush, this shouldn't be a problem. Anti-Bush fanatics have no problem rolling out biased, twisted lists of all that Bush has done, take a look, as it seems your no Bush fan it'll probably be to your liking. Some common themes in the smear campaign :

"Take from the poor give to the rich"
"Bankrupt the USA"
"Let oil interests rule the country"
"Restrict civil liberties"

etc...

and those are just some of the nicer ones Kwangistar!

Zep, unless you know how to interpret these things, don't go quoting it. the average person gets a recommended for promotion. That means that they've met the requirements for the next rank. Highly Recommended for promotion is a step above that. They have exceeded some of the requirements for promotion. Definite Promote means they have outshone themselves and should be promoted. My dad is unique because he has to fill them out for everyone in his unit so I think that qualifies as having experience. As for what qualifies, I think getting downgraded from Highly recommended to Recommended qualifies in that regard. He want from slightly above standard down to standard. If he had such a glowing report as you are stating, then he would've been passed on to better commands and he wasn't.

As for dings, as stated, he went from Highly recommended to Recommended. Why? Why the drop? Can you answer that?

No I can't. Nor can you, but you seem to want to pull theories out of your butt. And can you say for certain that these same rules as you claim to exist now were used in '66? Or would the rest of the glowing text along with the reccommendation be meant to imply the same thing?

Even if we all take your word for the fact that we should ignore the high praise because of a single sentance, and ignore the fact that he never has a single box checked below a superior rating, at worst then you might be able to convince us that he was an average officer.

But you sure will have a hard time from that document convincing ANYONE that he was a "washout".

Washouts do not get even a reccomendation.
Washouts are not called the "emerging leader of his peer group".
Washouts are not praised for decisions resulting in routing the enemy.
Washouts are not "instrumental in planning of highly successful Sea Lord operations" (p24)
Washouts are not "cited for his performance during action against the enemy by Commander Task Force in his message 080807Z Jan '69"


So don't try selling that BS because NOBODY who reads those fitreps will buy it.

A ha ha ha!!! With the democrats! Oh dear!! That's so funny!!! I'm cacking myself here!!! Oh deary me!!!

So the American media carries liberal bias? Out of all the things the neo-con spin doctors try to claim, that's one of the most ridiculous. It's like trying to tell hundreds of millions of people that a (non-albino) blackbird is white.

As we both know that's politics. As low as BOTH SIDES go, it's the way they choose to campaign. I don't like it either.

So - you DO understand then why I get pissed when people here try and perpetuate the BS? And why I step in and correct abhorent examples of missinformation? I have not attempted to paint Kerry as a Naval genius unheralded since Nelson, nor even a hero. But I sure as hell don't enjoy watching people shitting on his record!

"It's politics" is a lousy reason to let it slide by.

If the topic bores you - sorry. It's not really the most exciting one to me either. But it WAS an attempt to perpetuate (and augment) the SwiftVets smear, and I felt compelled to stand up against some blatant untruths.

Your right, what I say is BS because your the all mighty god of NS! But you know what? I frankly don't give a damn about his FITREP though he is running on it.

What I do care about is his Senate Record. That is not good at all. That is why he's running purely on his Vietnam Record. If his Senate record was as vaunted as you say it is, then why is he concentrating more on his Vietnam Record and not his Senate Record?

He has a 900 Billion Healthcare Plan
Defense Costs about 450 Billion! I have to look at the other ones but I bet they are into the Hundreds of BIllions of dollars. Now that we are up over at least 4 trillion dollars, how is a tax hike for the top 2% going to solve this? It won't. He'll have to slash something to pay for what he wants. What is he going to cut? That is what worries me.

Something about Kerry that I guess You choose to Ignore!

After the 1st WTC Attack, he proposed a 7 Billion Dollar CUT in intelligence. That got defeated. He tried to cut it again and when he realize it wasn't going to pass, tried to pass it off as an amendment! That too got defeated. He proposed cutting funds for the B-2 project as well.

That is why he's running on Vietnam, he has nothing to run on elsewhere in his life.

I am an aethist who despises organized religion because of what it does.

This is totally off topic, but what does organized religion do, in your opinion?


I am a Pro-lifer.


Wonderful. So am I. Too bad more atheists and non-atheists aren't.

he didnt lie, lie is a little strong. he greatly over exagerated the threat of Iraq and misdirected the public. Iraq was a hell hole of human rights, but so is 3/4 of the world.


I'll be an honest pro Bush person here, I don't know what Bush knew and when, I have to assume that he was given bad intelligence and acted upon it. I always give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. The assumption that anti Bush people have (based on what the 911 commission found that the intelligence Bush said he had was wrong) is that their premise has always been correct, Bush lied and this is the proof. Theirs is an assumption without direct proof. All the 911 commission proved was that the intelligence was wrong, not that Bush chose to go to war whether or not intelligence was proven right or wrong. Remember folks, assumptions are bad. Assume = ass + u + me (IN OTHER WORDS, ASSUMPTIONS MAKE ASSES OF US ALL).


iraq did NOT train or harbor terrorists, they stood in stark contrast of each others agendas.


Now how do you or I know that terrorists weren't being trained or harbored in Iraq? Who told us that? Iraq is a big country, Saddam had 12 years during which UN inspectors were in and out of there. Anything could be going on in different cities or underground locations that no one really knew of. I wouldn't go assuming that you know this either.


and you say if I have nothing to fear then I shouldnt fear the PATRIOT ACT. Is that what it comes down to? I have to prove my innocence before im being charged with anything? I understand being suspect but it is wrong to put someone next to a chart and say well your skin is this brown so we need to keep an eye on you.


I really wasn't thinking that police or FBI should be only tracking people based solely on skin color. I mean that if you see a person of dark skin, brownish, whatever and they happen to have a gun hidden in their pants or jacket, and they are on the cell, with a Koran nearby and so on, I'd be suspicious of them. I wouldn't necessarily be tapping the phones at all the mosques in the country, or following every Saudi looking guy coming out of the mosque. No I mean having more suspicious activity going on, more than usual.


America is a free nation and because of that we are open to attacks. a lot of people dont like this, but unless if you feel like being Isreal who has curfews and well armed police everywhere we should expect random terrorist actions for the next 50 years.


This is true. There really isn't a "safe" place to be anymore. If I went to Europe, there are plenty of people there that hate Americans, I would scrutinized, and be a target for any Islamic terrorist. They are in every single country. Scary thing is they can easily slip over the Mexican or Canadian border into the US because Bush isn't protecting them as well he should. This is one area I disagree with his policies on.

why does defiance of church irk you? church and state should NEVER be one and the same. leaders should not be basing thier orders on god.

As a Christian, I believe that my first "allegiance" is to God, first and foremost. He is my creator and no one is to come between Him and me. (my second, third and forth allegiances, in this order, are to my husband, to my family-friends-neighbors, and finally to myself. What is getting people all in a flux is that they seem to put themselves first, and this I disagree with. God created me, gave me life (through my parents) and His Kingdom is where I aim to go.

The idea of separation of church and state is NOT to take God out of everything. No, that is the misunderstanding of the idea. What the idea stemmed from was keeping the new country, the USA, from having a government sponsored religion. I don't want the government to sponsor my religion or anyone elses. They could then decide what precepts and tenets I were to follow, and then it wouldn't be the Church I belong to anymore.

But you know, all the federal buildings in washington dc have the 10 Commandments or other scripture quotes built into their structures. All of them. These buildings that are of the state, quote scripture. The founders of the US believed in a God and had faith in different religions. Non were atheists, non were CAtholic, none were African tribal, none were Native American. Most were some Protestant denom or Deists. They believed God gave us inalienable rights. And amoung these was the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. (abortion nixes someone's life potential, terrorism nixes liberty, and all the other evils nix happiness).

I believe if you truly want to understand what the founding fathers meant when the wrote the Dec of Independ. and Constitution and Separation clause, you must read the documents and their writings. Too many people have come to the conclusion that the US is a place where anything goes anymore, and this is so far from the truth. There is such a thing as ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and people have lost their way in understanding such a concept.

Kerry obviously believes he must please everyone and so he has to change his view on every issue when he changes crowds. If he came to my Church tomorrow, he couldn't receive communion because of his voting record on abortion. It is that serious an issue to devout believing Catholics.

Your right, what I say is BS because your the all mighty god of NS! But you know what? I frankly don't give a damn about his FITREP though he is running on it.

What I do care about is his Senate Record. That is not good at all. That is why he's running purely on his Vietnam Record. If his Senate record was as vaunted as you say it is, then why is he concentrating more on his Vietnam Record and not his Senate Record?

He has a 900 Billion Healthcare Plan
Defense Costs about 450 Billion! I have to look at the other ones but I bet they are into the Hundreds of BIllions of dollars. Now that we are up over at least 4 trillion dollars, how is a tax hike for the top 2% going to solve this? It won't. He'll have to slash something to pay for what he wants. What is he going to cut? That is what worries me.

Something about Kerry that I guess You choose to Ignore!

After the 1st WTC Attack, he proposed a 7 Billion Dollar CUT in intelligence. That got defeated. He tried to cut it again and when he realize it wasn't going to pass, tried to pass it off as an amendment! That too got defeated. He proposed cutting funds for the B-2 project as well.

That is why he's running on Vietnam, he has nothing to run on elsewhere in his life.



In other words - you can't back up your claims at all about his fitreps, so let's go on a completely unrelated rant.




Thanks for playing.

Television IS the main source in which people hear news from. But we all know the networks inevitably take a side and it is usually with democrats.

I'm not ignorant, I realize that there are other forms of news than television.
no, you're pretty damn ignorant..

In other words - you can't back up your claims at all about his fitreps, so let's go on a completely unrelated rant.




Thanks for playing.

Sorry Zepp, that isn't what I was doing. I was stating I really don't care. Kerry is really unfit to lead in a time of war. He has flipped flopped on this war one to many times. Before the war, he stated that we should go in and take away his WMD and votes for the war, Then when its over he says he's against it and that it was a mistake only because WMD haven't been found, ignoring the rape and torture rooms and the mass graves, He then advocates to have our allies join us in policing it disregarding the fact that our allies are their and are doing their duty and that this WASN'T a unilateral action. Now he wants to send in MORE troops. This coming from someone that says we should pull out. Now he's stating he wants all troops out by the end of his term! Doesn't he realize that would be disasterous? No I dont think it has crossed his mind.

Now on abortion! He voted Against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban where every Doctor says its unnecessary. He claims that life starts at conception but yet continuelly votes pro-choice just to satisfy the NOW Crowd.

These are but 2 issues he's flipped flopped on. He is as indecisive as Bush, if not more so. He taylors his speech to the type of crowd he's speaking too. He says that we are in a terrible market but yet Unemployment dropped a tenth of a percent to 5.5 and the Household Servay stated that they created over 690 thousand jobs. Granted Business only created 32,000 jobs but the jobs are still getting created.

Hopefully during the debates, he explains himself better on where he stands on these issues and STICKS with it, otherwise I fear for this country.

Sorry Zepp, that isn't what I was doing. I was stating I really don't care. Kerry is really unfit to lead in a time of war. He has flipped flopped on this war one to many times. Before the war, he stated that we should go in and take away his WMD and votes for the war, Then when its over he says he's against it and that it was a mistake only because WMD haven't been found, ignoring the rape and torture rooms and the mass graves, He then advocates to have our allies join us in policing it disregarding the fact that our allies are their and are doing their duty and that this WASN'T a unilateral action. Now he wants to send in MORE troops. This coming from someone that says we should pull out. Now he's stating he wants all troops out by the end of his term! Doesn't he realize that would be disasterous? No I dont think it has crossed his mind.

Now on abortion! He voted Against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban where every Doctor says its unnecessary. He claims that life starts at conception but yet continuelly votes pro-choice just to satisfy the NOW Crowd.

These are but 2 issues he's flipped flopped on. He is as indecisive as Bush, if not more so. He taylors his speech to the type of crowd he's speaking too. He says that we are in a terrible market but yet Unemployment dropped a tenth of a percent to 5.5 and the Household Servay stated that they created over 690 thousand jobs. Granted Business only created 32,000 jobs but the jobs are still getting created.

Hopefully during the debates, he explains himself better on where he stands on these issues and STICKS with it, otherwise I fear for this country.


Now you are getting off topic for this thread. So I'm not about to bite. Plus I have to spend a bit of time with my son before bedtime.


But as my final word to you on this thread - for somebody who claims to be able to read FitReps, isn't it odd how you first claimed that the ones from his combat tour weren't included?

But they were. Weren't they.

So - are you really knowledgeable about these things but just a liar when you debate? Or are you unknowledgeable and truthfully couldn't even read the section marked "duties" on those reports where it said "Officer in Charge PCF in Combat"? In that case of course, we can toss your assertions about how to interpret the reports.

Because it pretty much has to be one or the other.

Doesn't it?


So - which is it?

Now you are getting off topic for this thread. So I'm not about to bite. Plus I have to spend a bit of time with my son before bedtime.


But as my final word to you on this thread - for somebody who claims to be able to read FitReps, isn't it odd how you first claimed that the ones from his combat tour weren't included?

But they were. Weren't they.

So - are you really knowledgeable about these things but just a liar when you debate? Or are you unknowledgeable and truthfully couldn't even read the section marked "duties" on those reports where it said "Officer in Charge PCF in Combat"? In that case of course, we can toss your assertions about how to interpret the reports.

Because it pretty much has to be one or the other.

Doesn't it?


So - which is it?

More knowledgeable than you when it comes to interpreting these reports! I will take a closer look but is that there is? 29 pages? There should be more but I won't quible over that. I will take a look a closer look and come back.

Spend time with your son. He is more important than this.

More knowledgeable than you when it comes to interpreting these reports! I will take a closer look but is that there is? 29 pages? There should be more but I won't quible over that. I will take a look a closer look and come back.


Really?

Frome page 7 this thread after you first looked at the released bundle of Fitreps:
OMG!!! His FITREPS, those dealing with command, have not been released. NOT A ONE! Those are the ones that should be released but he isn't! Why? Because his COs considered him unfit for higher positions. Kerry knows this and that is why they are not being released.


They were released. I just had to point out the page numbers for you.... but it was a nice "jump to conspiracy" moment

Then from page 8 of this thread:

Zep, you don't understand how the US Military does things! He hasn't released all of his fitreps, just the ones that paint him in a good light. Only TWO of his COs support him. The rest don't! That is all I need

At this point you are claiming that all of the fitreps in that bundle painted him in a GOOD light, but are still claiming that the list wasn't complete.

So I itemized them by starting page in the bundle, and showed the continuity of dates to you.

Now we all recognize that the set of fitreps IS complete, but you are now claiming that the Fitreps paint him in a negative light... wheras the first time you read them you pretty much claimed that they were a cherrypicked set to make him look good.



For someone so "qualified", you sure have a hard time reading something you know so much about the same way twice...



Spend time with your son. He is more important than this.

Yes. He is.

I'll tell my uncle that! Though he isn't in fighters he does other, but just as important duties. He is a Nav on the C-130s but he loves the Air Force and all the jobs they perform! :)

Heck all jobs are important. NAV's are most important for the simple reason that they know where to go and how to get back. C-130's are awesome planes, help out the military greatly.

Well since my husband is on holidays right now, he has more time, however he owns his own company, so I guess he can pretty much do as he pleases' huh..

As for me, I'm on my Ph.D in political science. However my husband and I had a baby in Jan. So I have put off my studies until fall if you must know. However, in my spare time I still manage to be the director of marketing of an IT firm.. just for fun.. what have you done? An army grunt? Oh yes, I'm sure my husband and I are just so envious of you!

An Army Grunt? I guess you didn't read my post. I was an Electronics Warfare Officer (Captain, then Major while in-country, Lt Col at the time of my honorable discharge due to wounds received) or known as a "bear" or a "gib" (guy in back). We flew 2 kinds of missions, Iron Hand or Troll, our job was to attempt to be tracked by the NVA SAM's and NVA AAA (radar guided), if we couldn't find the sites, then we were to draw their fire and missile's. While the pilot flew our "THUD" I was the eyes and ears, finding the SAMS and getting a position on the sites so that my buddy, the pilot, would dance with any incoming SAMs, then would fire anti radar missiles at the targets. We operated during Linebacker I and II. So sorry but I am not a grunt.

Do you have patents for the F-15 and the AGM-88? Have you really done anything with your life besides having a kid? I don't need a PhD as I cashed in my patents long ago. Now I get to relax with my wife and watch our grandkids grow.

Yes, all branches of the military follow orders derived from people who make policy. See, I won't be in any branch of the military, I'll be the one helping form the policy! :rolleyes:

Yeah Canada policy! hehehe. Nice going up there with that Svend Robinson. "Oh I don't know why I stole that expensive ring."

as opposed to cutting taxes and introducing super expensive programs?
better to fund it now than throw imaginary monye at it and fuckt he nation in the future

Do you always have to use the F-bomb. If you try to use it then at least spell it right.

Do you always have to use the F-bomb. If you try to use it then at least spell it right.
ooh clever, when it doubt resort to personal attacks

Your mother and father's experience notwhithstanding - what the hell makes you think that they are unique in their ability to read these fitreps? And which of these reccommendations for promotion qualifies as "He was a washout who had a serious issue with following direct orders from his lead swift boat commanders. His CO would not have him on the bridge on his own ship, because his CO thought he lacked leadership."

If you want to argue that he wasn't the second coming of MacArthur - hey, I'll go along with that. I'm not claiming he was either.

But neither you nor Hannibal have successfully pointed to a single ding or indication of dissappoinment at his duties by his CO's. Certainly not to the extent that Hannibal is attempting to smear him.

-Z-

A ding is whenever you don't get promoted because of your FITREP, if Kerry was still only a JG Lt, why was he passed over time and time again. My FITREP went went rather well and I was promoted quickly and with a letter of accomplishment from the President. I made captain after leaving the AFA in one year.

FITREP's don't specifically say what your drawbacks are, but generalize your whole performance. Everything that keeps you from being promoted is a ding. If Kerrys' FITREPS were as wonderful as you state, he should of have been made a full LT, he had more then enough time to do so in Vietnam.

Do you have patents for the F-15 and the AGM-88? Have you really done anything with your life besides having a kid? I don't need a PhD as I cashed in my patents long ago. Now I get to relax with my wife and watch our grandkids grow.

All that means is I'm more educated then you. You invented what exactly? A better what? Cause you sure as hell don't hold the patent for the F-15 or the AGM-88

I don't think it IS terribly important. Interestinlgy enough Corneliu said the same thing.... AFTER he tried bashin Kerry about his. It sometimes seems that the Republican's only know how to smear their opposition as a campaign tactic, and it burns me when they sink this low.

And I have this odd sense of morality in that when somebody makes a blatantly false statement against somebody I feel compelled to jump in and correct the error. Especially when it seems to be done with malice aforethought.

It is funny why you as a Canadian care so much about this. Not like you are going to vote in the elections. You should focus on Canada, you guys have more then enough issues. For example, the gun registry fiasco, clubbing 300,000 cute baby harp seals to death, your softwood lumber industry, treaty problems with the First Nations, a growing crime rate, healthcare problems, oh and sponsorship scandals.

It is funny why you as a Canadian care so much about this. Not like you are going to vote in the elections. You should focus on Canada.

Perhaps when the Americans start minding their own business in the world, maybe the rest of us will. As soon as you step outside of your borders, it becomes all of our business, further, it's not like we don't have a stake in this, I do believe we have Canadian troops in Afghanistan fighting your battles. The monkey chump that is making your foreign policy is directly affecting Canadians and many other countries as well.

ooh clever, when it doubt resort to personal attacks

Yes such a harsh personal attack (condeming your profane language). Heck there really is no need for such language, just shows your lack of ability to make your point. Libs like you just love to accuse everyone else of personal attacks, or of being a hate monger, just because their opinions differ on subjects.

Now, do you kiss your mommy with that mouth?

It is funny why you as a Canadian care so much about this. Not like you are going to vote in the elections. You should focus on Canada, you guys have more then enough issues. For example, the gun registry fiasco, clubbing 300,000 cute baby harp seals to death, your softwood lumber industry, treaty problems with the First Nations, a growing crime rate, healthcare problems, oh and sponsorship scandals.

Yes, it's odd why anyone would take an interest in what goes on with the superpower next door who happens to be your largest trading partner. Gosh - nothing that happens THERE could have any impact at home could it?

:rolleyes:

You think I maintain an interest in US politics out of a simple altruistic hope for the betterment of America for Americans? No. I care about it because it affects my own country as well as the rest of the world. And it affect my cousin who is in Kabul right now.

That being said - Gun registry: dumb frickin' thing that the current administration should just axe and forget. HArp seals: don't much care about the fur industry one way or the other, although I think there are nicer ways to kill 'em. First Nations? Well, I think we are dealing with them more fairly than the US right now but more work still needs to be done. Crime rate: Actually quite stable in some areas, increasing in some, and declining in others. Do you want to compare our murder rates to yours? Sponsorship scandals: was a short-lived political football that disapeared with the election. Softwood lumber? Well that would be another dispute with the USA - so I think THAT was a rather silly one for you to bring up! lol

Yes such a harsh personal attack (condeming your profane language). Heck there really is no need for such language, just shows your lack of ability to make your point. Libs like you just love to accuse everyone else of personal attacks, or of being a hate monger, just because their opinions differ on subjects.

Now, do you kiss your mommy with that mouth?
i was reading this tripe here and i got to "libs love to just accuse everyone of personal attacks, or of being a hate monet, jsut because their opinions differ on subjects"

i thought to myself this scenario" This is the kettle residence, please leave a message at the tone *BEEEEP*: Hey yo Kettle, this is pot. You're black"

All that means is I'm more educated then you. You invented what exactly? A better what? Cause you sure as hell don't hold the patent for the F-15 or the AGM-88

For certain parts of the radar system, which were improvements to the radar tracking systems. Making the F-15's radar and the AGM-88's system more reliable. You are more educated then me, big freaking deal, do you have anything else besides book smarts. BTW Lehigh is a good engineering school, and getting into the Air Force Academy is not really as easy as going to say Penn State.

I submit to your vast superiority.

Yes, it's odd why anyone would take an interest in what goes on with the superpower next door who happens to be your largest trading partner. Gosh - nothing that happens THERE could have any impact at home could it?

:rolleyes:

You think I maintain an interest in US politics out of a simple altruistic hope for the betterment of America for Americans? No. I care about it because it affects my own country as well as the rest of the world. And it affect my cousin who is in Kabul right now.

That being said - Gun registry: dumb frickin' thing that the current administration should just axe and forget. HArp seals: don't much care about the fur industry one way or the other, although I think there are nicer ways to kill 'em. First Nations? Well, I think we are dealing with them more fairly than the US right now but more work still needs to be done. Crime rate: Actually quite stable in some areas, increasing in some, and declining in others. Do you want to compare our murder rates to yours? Sponsorship scandals: was a short-lived political football that disapeared with the election. Softwood lumber? Well that would be another dispute with the USA - so I think THAT was a rather silly one for you to bring up! lol

Well things happen for a reason. The reason being compared to the mega power that is the US, Canada is really just our little lap dog. Thanks for the maple syrup, your hockey players, and for fixing all of the world's problems, which are indeed America's fault. You can thank us for this wonderful thing you use called the internet.

Comparing the murder rates is a little like apples and oranges. When you have nearly 300 million people, the right to bear arms, more people here will certainly be murdered. Considering how many more guns are here, it is a little tough to compare figures. Non gun related crimes are rising steadily in Canada while remaining the same in the US, even dropping in some instances.

i was reading this tripe here and i got to "libs love to just accuse everyone of personal attacks, or of being a hate monet, jsut because their opinions differ on subjects"

i thought to myself this scenario" This is the kettle residence, please leave a message at the tone *BEEEEP*: Hey yo Kettle, this is pot. You're black"

It's called satire and humor, I was making fun of the fact you said I engaged in a personal attack.

BTW I love Monet, I don't hate him at all.

Comparing the murder rates is a little like apples and oranges. When you have nearly 300 million people, the right to bear arms, more people here will certainly be murdered. Considering how many more guns are here, it is a little to compare figures. Non gun related crimes are rising steadily in Canada while remaining the same in the US, even dropping in some instances.

It could certainly be done by "per capita" in fact I believe it has been, you don't want to know the results, it isn't pretty for the USA. The other stuff, well, I'm not going to fall into a trap of arguing the merits of the Internet, I suppose you could always thank us for those G-suits we invented for you while you were in the Air Force. However, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest of who invented what. It's stupid!

It could certainly be done by "per capita" in fact I believe it has been, you don't want to know the results, it isn't pretty for the USA. The other stuff, well, I'm not going to fall into a trap of arguing the merits of the Internet, I suppose you could thank us for that little thing called the telephone, However, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest of who invented what. It's stupid!

The telephone was invented in the states, not in Canada. Get your facts straight. Just like baseketball, the airplane, plus we did go to the moon. Per capita is tough to compare as we have more guns then you do, plus you don't have the "right" to have weapons.

Well things happen for a reason. The reason being compared to the mega power that is the US, Canada is really just our little lap dog. Thanks for the maple syrup, your hockey players, and for fixing all of the world's problems, which are indeed America's fault. You can thank us for this wonderful thing you use called the internet.

Comparing the murder rates is a little like apples and oranges. When you have nearly 300 million people, the right to bear arms, more people here will certainly be murdered. Considering how many more guns are here, it is a little tough to compare figures. Non gun related crimes are rising steadily in Canada while remaining the same in the US, even dropping in some instances.


Awwwwwwwwwwwww - sinking back to pithy insults again are you Hannibal?

From a discussion on a topic to a juvenile "my country can beat up your country" crack? I suppose you expect a knee-jerk reaction. A barb set deliberately just for spites sake?

Saddly typical of you from my experience. Which is why debating you is rapidly becoming a waste of my time.

you're just not willing to act mature enough.

The telephone was invented in the states, not in Canada. Get your facts straight. Just like baseketball, the airplane, plus we did go to the moon. Per capita is tough to compare as we have more guns then you do, plus you don't have the "right" to have weapons.

Perhaps, but they were Canadians, Bell was born in Scotland and moved and became a Canadian citizen then moved to the states. Same as Basketball, he may of invented it while in the US but he was most certainly a born and rasied Canadian. He only went to the USA to teach. I have my facts straight.

I will concede that Scotland/Canada/USA all take some credit for Bell. So this has been a disputed fact for years and years. So I won't really argue it and it's also why I changed my post prior to you posting this, because I knew that wasn't the best example. Sure you've been to the moon, but your space shuttle would be fun for sight seeing if not for the Canadian arm.

Now, enough of this high school baiting crap.. who cares, both Canadians and Americans have invented some pretty kewl stuff that has changed the world.

Kerry should be upfront with everything. I wouldn't trust that man as far as I can drop kick him.

Bush has faults, what man doesn't? However, he's the best man for the job in the dangerous world in which we live. If taking the fight to the Muslim extremists in the streets of Fallujah means I can sit on my porch with a cup of coffee in the morning and not worry about some radical jihadist blowing my butt up for the sake of his god, then I say GO BUSH! He has my vote in November.

Kerry has proven with his votes as a Sanator that national defense isn't a priority, no mater what he said at the DNC.

If you like protection, freedom and having money to spend the way you want to spend it, I would then encourage you vote Bush.

Kerry should be upfront with everything. I wouldn't trust that man as far as I can drop kick him.

Bush has faults, what man doesn't? However, he's the best man for the job in the dangerous world in which we live. If taking the fight to the Muslim extremists in the streets of Fallujah means I can sit on my porch with a cup of coffee in the morning and not worry about some radical jihadist blowing my butt up for the sake of his god, then I say GO BUSH! He has my vote in November.

Kerry has proven with his votes as a Sanator that national defense isn't a priority, no mater what he said at the DNC.

If you like protection, freedom and having money to spend the way you want to spend it, I would then encourage you vote Bush.

Honestly, I think 99.9% of Americans who are going to vote have basically already made up their minds on who they intend to vote for. I seriously doubt many can be talked into changing their minds. But who knows.

All pertinent parts of Kerry's record have been disclosed and are available for the public to peruse. As his campaign manager has already said, since the Kerry campaign has been upfront about releasing the records in question, they won't go any further until Bush does the same with his.

While you weren't asking about Bush's records, I still think that's a fair deal.
1. It was the Kerry Camp that chose to make military service an issue in this campaign. Because they did so, the Bush camp, and the American pubic, have ever right and deserve to see ALL of Kerry's military records.

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds. I'm just stating an opinion :D

I think there are two sides to the story, and as much as you all want to believe Kerry or believe those who are against him, just keep in mind that both sides have an agenda and a backstory.

I think there are two sides to the story, and as much as you all want to believe Kerry or believe those who are against him, just keep in mind that both sides have an agenda and a backstory.
i am sure the truth lies some where in between the 2. that is why we need full discloser from all candidates. i would rather like a candidate because of the truth than hate him from a lie.

1. It was the Kerry Camp that chose to make military service an issue in this campaign. Because they did so, the Bush camp, and the American pubic, have ever right and deserve to see ALL of Kerry's military records.

and becuase Bush is the President, and has made an issue of attacking Kerry's service record, we have even more right to see his own so called "service" records.

and becuase Bush is the President, and has made an issue of attacking Kerry's service record, we have even more right to see his own so called "service" records.

You really need to get out more BackwoodsSquatches! Bush hasn't comeout and attacked Kerry's record. You must know that but alas, you think anyone attached to the Republican Party is attached to Bush but that isn't how it is.

The ONLY person bringing up Kerry's military record is Kerry....now, lets see that Senate record Mr. Kerry.....

The ONLY person bringing up Kerry's military record is Kerry....now, lets see that Senate record Mr. Kerry.....

However, here is how to analyize a fitrep!

http://www.sportsmenforkerryedwards.com/fitrep_analysis.htm

Even comes with analysis!

However, I know steph and zep won't bother but, if they are as educated as they seem to be, they will.

Alright then. Prove that he didn't injure himself. All anybody has to work with on a decades old incident is testimony of witnesses. And I'm more inclined to believe people who aren't personal friends with a biased view. How often do the close friends of politicians say something negative about them? (That goes for everyone by the way. I'm not inclined to believe the close friends of Bush on them saying he's God's gift to mankind either. How many times have your friends said something to get you out of trouble?)

And okay, let me make myself a little more clear. Nobody without some sort of political agenda cares about Kerry's purple hearts. The majority of the public couldn't care less.

Well, except for those who insist that his purple hearts (which may or may not have been aquired under dubious circumstance) prove that he is a better person.

It is not Squatches' perogative to provide proof, as the burden of proof falls upon the positive; as in as you are the one claiming that Kerry injured himself for the other two purple hearts, you are the one required to support that.

El, oh, double-juh, ick!

sorry for the pro-life thing. i am actually pro-choice that was a typo. I am all for abortions except the partial birth abortions I think they are called. the one were the fetus starts to devolp and become a person.

This is totally off topic, but what does organized religion do, in your opinion?


organized religion is sneaky and can be too easily manipulated to hurt people. I feel bad for those people that yearn so bad and have no one looking out for them so someone comes along and says if you follow me happiness will come shortly after so they blindly follow. and you said it yourself. God should be between a person and him, no middle man. and some people persecute you for not attending church. If there is a god he does not have a calendar up in heaven marking off when you went to church. In religion I believe you should find your way. You should not be told the way because if you find your way it is all that much more meaningful and it is YOUR god.


Now how do you or I know that terrorists weren't being trained or harbored in Iraq? Who told us that? Iraq is a big country, Saddam had 12 years during which UN inspectors were in and out of there. Anything could be going on in different cities or underground locations that no one really knew of. I wouldn't go assuming that you know this either.


The only area in Iraq that could harbor terrorsists would be in the kurdish areas because everywhere else was controlled by sadaam. Sadaam did not like having people oppose him (hence he was a dictator that tortured). Saddaam was also a paranoid man


This is true. There really isn't a "safe" place to be anymore. If I went to Europe, there are plenty of people there that hate Americans, I would scrutinized, and be a target for any Islamic terrorist. They are in every single country. Scary thing is they can easily slip over the Mexican or Canadian border into the US because Bush isn't protecting them as well he should. This is one area I disagree with his policies on.


not everyone hates america. I have foreign friends and there was actually another thread about this I was reading about this topic. They hate the policies of america, not teh people.


The idea of separation of church and state is NOT to take God out of everything.


I am a little extreme on this, but follow me. If i ever have to swear in court I will ask to swear on the constitution before the bible/Quran because god should be an aide and not something I should be scared of if I lie. I also have a hard time placing God and Logic in teh same sentence because I am an Aethist. I am lax as far as the whole under god, in god we trust ect we have and i dont really care because I understand that America was founded on some religious foundations but they were so loose that they did not intrude or offend any other religions. but in courts and high ranking offices where reasoning is important there should be the lack of religion of any sort because you are running a country, or you are deciding someones fate (if it is a courtroom) and 100% fact should be used.


Too many people have come to the conclusion that the US is a place where anything goes anymore, and this is so far from the truth.


your right, thats why Las Vegas is so popular now though :)


Kerry obviously believes he must please everyone and so he has to change his view on every issue when he changes crowds.


its politics, No one has the gahonas(sp?) anymore to stand by thier ideas and stick with em. You play lap dog to a higher ranking politician for years slowly moving your way up. then if your a good enough BSer through congress/senate/governer then you make a run for president where you smile kiss babies and smear the other party.

Kerry should be upfront with everything. I wouldn't trust that man as far as I can drop kick him.

Bush has faults, what man doesn't? However, he's the best man for the job in the dangerous world in which we live. If taking the fight to the Muslim extremists in the streets of Fallujah means I can sit on my porch with a cup of coffee in the morning and not worry about some radical jihadist blowing my butt up for the sake of his god, then I say GO BUSH! He has my vote in November.

Kerry has proven with his votes as a Sanator that national defense isn't a priority, no mater what he said at the DNC.

If you like protection, freedom and having money to spend the way you want to spend it, I would then encourage you vote Bush.


I hope Bush enacts the draft and you get a nice low number.

I hope Bush enacts the draft and you get a nice low number.

That would require Congress and it won't pass the Congress.