NationStates Jolt Archive

Think of what your asking.....

Your asking people to give their very souls,.
Your asking people to trust so much in "god" that they are entrusting thier immortal afterlife..

...to something that cannot be proven to exist.


Doesnt this defy logic?
dunno. dun care. it's your life, not mine.

oh? up to you. it's your life you're living.

My way of life is not the topic of discussion.

My way of life is not the topic of discussion.

it's not. what i'm saying is, if you think God is a lie, then keep on thinking that lie, because if you don't believe, you don't believe. it's completely up to you.

nobody can prove God to you. it's a redundant request. you HAVE to experience God yourself.

it's not. what i'm saying is, if you think God is a lie, then keep on thinking that lie, because if you don't believe, you don't believe. it's completely up to you.

nobody can prove God to you. it's a redundant request. you HAVE to experience God yourself.

Considering Rev says if you don't 'experience' God he'll torture you forever, isn't that a rather unfair setup?

it's not. what i'm saying is, if you think God is a lie, then keep on thinking that lie, because if you don't believe, you don't believe. it's completely up to you.

nobody can prove God to you. it's a redundant request. you HAVE to experience God yourself.

I never said God is a lie. I only said that your so-called only method of reaching Him hasn't worked for me.

I never said God is a lie. I only said that your so-called only method of reaching Him hasn't worked for me.

God is here. God is always here. i don't know what's happened with you, but i will certainly pray for you for you to reach God, or, for Him to reach you. :D

Considering Rev says if you don't 'experience' God he'll torture you forever, isn't that a rather unfair setup?

no, because on the other hand, if you experience Him, He'll hold you forever.

I don't know what we're debating; the initial post was so confused I didn't want to reply to it.
Guess what? you just replied... ;)

no, because on the other hand, if you experience Him, He'll hold you forever.

But if I don't he'll send me to hell? Isnt' that rather like a father telling his son if he says he's a good dad he'll get a present but if he doesn't he'll have the shit beaten out of him for the whole evening?

God is here. God is always here. i don't know what's happened with you, but i will certainly pray for you for you to reach God, or, for Him to reach you. :D

That's mighty nice of you, thanks!

But if I don't he'll send me to hell? Isnt' that rather like a father telling his son if he says he's a good dad he'll get a present but if he doesn't he'll have the shit beaten out of him for the whole evening?
Got a point there

But if I don't he'll send me to hell? Isnt' that rather like a father telling his son if he says he's a good dad he'll get a present but if he doesn't he'll have the shit beaten out of him for the whole evening?

yes, but the son has the whole day to improve himself. if the son knows that if he misbehaves he'll get beaten for the whole evening, why wouldn't he improve himself for the day so he'll get the present?

your day hasn't ended yet. evening is still a long time away. acknowledge your Dad and believe in Him.

That's mighty nice of you, thanks!

in the meantime, keep praying, read the Bible, and talk to Christian friends about it. if you don't have any, i guess i'm available through email, telegram and MSN. ;) i don't know what i can do, but i hope to do my best.

God bless.

yes, but the son has the whole day to improve himself. if the son knows that if he misbehaves he'll get beaten for the whole evening, why wouldn't he improve himself for the day so he'll get the present?

The more relevant question is: if the father beats his son for the whole evening for refusing to say he's a good father, is he a good father?

The more relevant question is: if the father beats his son for the whole evening for refusing to say he's a good father, is he a good father?

the father is not beating the son for refusing to say he's a good father - he is beating the son for refusing to listen to him, or even acknowledge him. it's completely logical, because you will be punished if you've done wrong. you know He's there, why not attempt to understand Him, instead of debating the never-ending question of whether He's there or not?

the father is not beating the son for refusing to say he's a good father - he is beating the son for refusing to listen to him, or even acknowledge him. it's completely logical, because you will be punished if you've done wrong. you know He's there, why not attempt to understand Him, instead of debating the never-ending question of whether He's there or not?

Except that many people don't know that God is there, unlike the father-son example.

Except that many people don't know that God is there, unlike the father-son example.

true, so it is my belief that those who have never heard of God would not be punished for not knowing Him in the end, but they are still responsible for their actions.

true, so it is my belief that those who have never heard of God would not be punished for not knowing Him in the end, but they are still responsible for their actions.

Unfortunately, your view is not supported by scripture.... by scripture, whether or not you've heard of him, in fact, whether or not you're even OLD ENOUGH to have heard of him - if you don't accept jesus as the Christ, you're frying in hell for all eternity. (John 3:36)

The problem is that the New Testament scholars didn't understand the Old Testament. The idea of a divinely inspired text falls down on that premise. In the old testament, say Deuteronomy 32:22 - the Hebrew scholars talk about Sheol as the resting place of the dead - a place very similar to the Greek Hades. All the dead go there. All of them. There is no fire and brimstone, or devils with tiny pitchforks... it's a place of darkness and forgetting.

Similarly, with the concepts of Gehenna and Armageddon - a historical reference to a place where they burned trash, and an actual battlefield, where several wars took place..

But, by the time the New Testament has finished with them - we're all "going to Hell", and Armaggedon is going to be the war at the end of the world...

Religion is for controlling the masses,not only Christianity.
All religions are there to comfort,encourage and motivate people.
Also Christianity for example was a good comfort for poor people in middle ages Europe(christianity still hadnt become fully established in scandinavia).
Without their daily prayers,alot of people would have become so depressed they wouldnt have been able to work.
Also,the fear of hell and yaddayadda tells people not to do this,not to do that.Well,religion changes alot,if you compare it to the christianity from 800 AD to 2004 AD,see what differences you find and think about it.
Its still the same god isnt it?Hm.
I got nothing against people who are religious.I'm an atheist myself,but that doesnt stop me from understanding what religion means to people.
But those who try to convince others to become part of their religion,well I just cant stand those.And those who shout "Sin sin!" every time they get the chance.I hope you get what I'm saying here,religion is good for people,but its not necessarily real.

Unfortunately, your view is not supported by scripture.... by scripture, whether or not you've heard of him, in fact, whether or not you're even OLD ENOUGH to have heard of him - if you don't accept jesus as the Christ, you're frying in hell for all eternity. (John 3:36)



how can you be punished for a deed you don't know there was a law that was against it? it's not the fault of the native american living in 900A.D. to not have heard of the one, true Lord and His plans to save the world.

how can you be punished for a deed you don't know there was a law that was against it? it's not the fault of the native american living in 900A.D. to not have heard of the one, true Lord and His plans to save the world.

Don't ask us-ask your god, he's the one damning people.

Don't ask us-ask your god, he's the one damning people.
well, doesn't matter. now that YOU've heard of Him, what are you going to do about it? not you personally. you in general.

well, doesn't matter. now that YOU've heard of Him, what are you going to do about it? not you personally. you in general.

DOESN'T MATTER?!

i'd say it matters a whole hell of a lot. if your God damns people for not hearing of him, or sends babies to hell because they were to young to understand the concept of God, then that makes a huge difference to me. i'm not going to worship such a monstrosity just because he threatens me with Hell; indeed, if God knows my heart then He will know how revolted i am with him.

no amount of outward devotion would cover the fact that i think your God is an abomination of the human mind. no amount of praying and scraping would be able to disguise my disgust with people who are willing to worship such a being. no amout of church or Bible reading will change the fact that God tortures innocent people because He wants more attention.

if you are comfortable selling your allegiance under threat of torture then that's your choice. i personally have a few tattered shreds of honor left, and won't lie to others or myself just to save my own skin.

Allot of people seem to be saying he can't piss anyone off posting this but yet it seems to be working. Allot of you should find out what other people are going to say fisrt before saying he won't piss anyone off, because then he does. It makes you look stupid and brainless. Then again some(Most) people on here are brainless and think this game is thier life. Saying that I'm through here you won't hear from me again on this topic. Good Day to you.

Allot of people seem to be saying he can't piss anyone off posting this but yet it seems to be working. Allot of you should find out what other people are going to say fisrt before saying he won't piss anyone off, because then he does. It makes you look stupid and brainless. Then again some(Most) people on here are brainless and think this game is thier life. Saying that I'm through here you won't hear from me again on this topic. Good Day to you.

thanks for removing yourself from the topic, we really have enough people who post unintelligible and arrogant rambles.

DOESN'T MATTER?!

i'd say it matters a whole hell of a lot. if your God damns people for not hearing of him, or sends babies to hell because they were to young to understand the concept of God, then that makes a huge difference to me. i'm not going to worship such a monstrosity just because he threatens me with Hell; indeed, if God knows my heart then He will know how revolted i am with him.

no amount of outward devotion would cover the fact that i think your God is an abomination of the human mind. no amount of praying and scraping would be able to disguise my disgust with people who are willing to worship such a being. no amout of church or Bible reading will change the fact that God tortures innocent people because He wants more attention.

if you are comfortable selling your allegiance under threat of torture then that's your choice. i personally have a few tattered shreds of honor left, and won't lie to others or myself just to save my own skin.

what happens to other people after death is really not your concern. one day you will face God alone for yourself, so will every other individual that has lived, or living, or yet to live. what God chooses to do with others is not part of our concerns.

what happens to other people after death is really not your concern. one day you will face God alone for yourself, so will every other individual that has lived, or living, or yet to live. what God chooses to do with others is not part of our concerns.

wow. you don't really believe that, do you?

so what God does with my baby brother shouldn't worry me. what God does with my lover, or my parents, or my best friends shouldn't be any of my concern. what God does with total strangers shouldn't even enter my mind.

what if your God is being unjust? what if He is passing sentence unfairly? what if His decisions are...dare i say...evil? how do you know that the being who created you is inherently good? because His book tells you so? because His priests say He's a nice guy?

why did God give us our magnificent frontal cortex if He didn't want us to use it? why make us, alone out of all animals, able to think beyond simple self-preservation and selfish instinct, if He didn't want us to do so?

oh, wait, that's right...because He wants us to ignore the temptation of using the gifts that distinguish us as a species from all other life. He wants us to follow without questions, and not use the powers at our disposal to evaluate whether God is worthy of our worship.

so let's not question, let's just worship. let's only worry about ourselves, and not care what happens to anybody else. let's just try to get our cookie and ignore all the other kids getting beaten in the corner over there. let's just let Hitler take the Jews because hey, we're not Jewish. it's not our business what somebody does with other people, and we shouldn't question.

how anybody can claim that Christianity is moral is totally beyond me.

what happens to other people after death is really not your concern. one day you will face God alone for yourself, so will every other individual that has lived, or living, or yet to live. what God chooses to do with others is not part of our concerns.

Sure it is, it's called compassion.

Sure it is, it's called compassion.

we're talking about people who are dead. people who are dead don't need compassion.

we're talking about people who are dead. people who are dead don't need compassion.

Sure they do, if they go to hell.

wow. you don't really believe that, do you?

so what God does with my baby brother shouldn't worry me. what God does with my lover, or my parents, or my best friends shouldn't be any of my concern. what God does with total strangers shouldn't even enter my mind.

what if your God is being unjust? what if He is passing sentence unfairly? what if His decisions are...dare i say...evil? how do you know that the being who created you is inherently good? because His book tells you so? because His priests say He's a nice guy?

why did God give us our magnificent frontal cortex if He didn't want us to use it? why make us, alone out of all animals, able to think beyond simple self-preservation and selfish instinct, if He didn't want us to do so?

oh, wait, that's right...because He wants us to ignore the temptation of using the gifts that distinguish us as a species from all other life. He wants us to follow without questions, and not use the powers at our disposal to evaluate whether God is worthy of our worship.

so let's not question, let's just worship. let's only worry about ourselves, and not care what happens to anybody else. let's just try to get our cookie and ignore all the other kids getting beaten in the corner over there. let's just let Hitler take the Jews because hey, we're not Jewish. it's not our business what somebody does with other people, and we shouldn't question.

how anybody can claim that Christianity is moral is totally beyond me.
dead people! dead people! once they're dead, there really isn't much you can do about if they didn't accept God in their life.

but i still pray for my already dead grand daddy. dunno how it helps, but i do it.

and then i pray for my friends, my family. i prayed for you bottle, and i prayed for hakartopia. i prayed for people i don't know. iraqis. the korean who was kidnapped. the african children killed in the famines.

Unfortunately, your view is not supported by scripture.... by scripture, whether or not you've heard of him, in fact, whether or not you're even OLD ENOUGH to have heard of him - if you don't accept jesus as the Christ, you're frying in hell for all eternity. (John 3:36)



"But Jesus said, Let the little ones come to me, and do not keep them away: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14

"And one came to him and said, Master, what good thing have I to do, so that I may have eternal life? And he said to him, Why are you questioning me about what is good? One there is who is good: but if you have a desire to go into life, keep the rules of the law. He says to him, Which? And Jesus said, Do not put anyone to death, Do not be untrue in married life, Do not take what is not yours, Do not give false witness, Give honour to your father and your mother: and, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself."" Matthew 19:16-19

just quoting a song here.....

"I dont need anyone
to tell me about Heaven.
I just look at my daughter
and I believe.

I dont need any proof
about God and truth
I can see the sunset
and I believe."

I do not like having my existance diskussed on a forum, so stop it please...

for those who accuse me of being incompassionate, here's the Bible quote i'm basing my perspective on:

"Then Peter, turning round, saw the disciple who was dear to Jesus coming after them--the disciple who was resting on his breast at the last meal, and said, Lord, who is it who will be false to you? Seeing him, Peter said to Jesus, What about this man? Jesus said to him, If it is my desire for him to be here till I come back, what is that to you? come yourself after me." John 21:20-22

if it is God's desire to spare or damn any body, what is that to me? what is that to you? come ourselves after Him. of course, we're talking about judas the iscariot who had already killed himself by hanging.

As for my opinion, God is real. That's our only proof unless we believe The Bible to be historically accurate. Even in the Middle Ages, there were reported findings of pieces of the true cross. And satellite surveilance revealed that Noah's Ark is probably on a mountain in Turkey. I only say probably because no one has gone there and checked what that thing is sitting up there yet. So for you atheist assholes who have nothing to look forward to when you die, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND! :mp5:

Okay, he's some circumstantial proof that God exists and undenyable proof that Darwin is wrong in respect to human evolution. Look at human brains. We use 10% of our cerebrum if we are lucky. There is no way that man could have evolved a brain such as our to where we can question the existence of God if advantageous traits were selected. This is because our heads would be small and not waste weight. The only possible answer is that God created us with a brain with unknown capacity. The other option is that every human in existence is an anomoly.

Okay, he's some circumstantial proof that God exists and undenyable proof that Darwin is wrong in respect to human evolution. Look at human brains. We use 10% of our cerebrum if we are lucky. There is no way that man could have evolved a brain such as our to where we can question the existence of God if advantageous traits were selected. This is because our heads would be small and not waste weight. The only possible answer is that God created us with a brain with unknown capacity. The other option is that every human in existence is an anomoly.

Or maybe we simply don't know what the other 90% is used for yet. :roll:

Okay, he's some circumstantial proof that God exists and undenyable proof that Darwin is wrong in respect to human evolution. Look at human brains. We use 10% of our cerebrum if we are lucky. There is no way that man could have evolved a brain such as our to where we can question the existence of God if advantageous traits were selected. This is because our heads would be small and not waste weight. The only possible answer is that God created us with a brain with unknown capacity. The other option is that every human in existence is an anomoly.

Whales have much larger brains yet do not have language, per se, nor art nor science. Whales are therefore God's chosen mammal and I think He may in fact have flippers and a spout.
:D

Or maybe we simply don't know what the other 90% is used for yet. :roll:

Ah, but who is to decide when we find out? How did we get on this Earth in the first place? Hm?

Ah, but who is to decide when we find out? How did we get on this Earth in the first place? Hm?

We, and we don't really know yet.

What my point is is that there's equal proof to God's existance or lack thereof. It's just a matter of belief. What this thread is, is a lack of respect for those beliefs. But as I posted in an earlier thread, there is pheasible proof leaning toward God's existance. I'm just waiting for the day, the day it is conclusive, and revel in the looks on your atheist faces.

Religion is a necessity for people who are in despare or lost. Symbolism is very important in humans lives. As long as people have existed, there has been believes in higher beings that control the environment. And it is not true that it has been used by governments to enslave the people. However, greed is an old and common sin wich have appeared in both religious and atheistic states. Things also tend to get calmer when the people has symbols to rely on. Look at Britain (or Sweden, or Thailand or any other monarchy were politics are very equal in the parliament). Without the Queen (or the King) people couldnt stand being rejected for their political issues. An unpolitical symbol is clearly a fact. U.S. France or germay, politics are very brutal and cruel, and the polititions are digging up anything to insult their competitors. Even from their childhood. In monarchies, people simply dont care about these things. They can concentrate on voting for political issues, because the person who symbolises the country are neutral and are not elected.

So if there isnt any religious believes, there must be a monarch who inherit the symbolism, or people would vote completely on the person who represent the party. Not on their issues.

Long Live The King
Royalist

I'm, as I've posted before, an athiest. When I'm a good person, it's for the sake of being a good person; not because it's written in a book that if I'm *not* a good person, I shall be punished. Doing good in the hopes of getting rewarded (heaven, anyone), is not truly being good. It's being human.

When I do bad things, I accept that they are bad, and I either do my best to minimise the pain caused by my actions, or I explain my reasons for believing myself justified. I'll never claim I did something bad because Satan made me do it, I'll never give God and his plans the credit for my actions.

I believe in science because it fits with my knowledge of the world. People who claim that 'looking at the world' is proof of God are uneducated. That's not an insult - seriously, they need to take a biology course, followed by physics, geology, psychology and philosophy. Saying "I do not understand how this could be, thus it has to be a *made* thing" is taking the lazy way out.

If I am wrong, and there is a God, and I go to hell for not accepting him, then He was never worthy of my respect anyway. If He is the God that Christians preach about, he will forgive me for not believing what any random person told me. The same goes for any other god - any supreme being that would punish me for exploring my own mind is unworthy of respect, let alone worship.

I have no respect for anyone who tried to convert me. By preaching baseless facts and arrogant assumptions at me, you have forced me further and further and further away from God. Next time you open your mouth to convince someone to believe in Jesus and God, consider how much harm you may actually be doing.

Okay, he's some circumstantial proof that God exists and undenyable proof that Darwin is wrong in respect to human evolution. Look at human brains. We use 10% of our cerebrum if we are lucky. There is no way that man could have evolved a brain such as our to where we can question the existence of God if advantageous traits were selected. This is because our heads would be small and not waste weight. The only possible answer is that God created us with a brain with unknown capacity. The other option is that every human in existence is an anomoly.
actually, the "humans only use 10% of their brains" thing is a myth. we now know what over half of our brain function is for, though we don't completely understand it, and we know for a fact that ALL brain tissue is being used. we can tell this by using fMRI scans or other techniques, and we can measure the energy consumption of the brain without much trouble.

humans ARE using their whole brain, and, in fact, as you age the parts of your brain that aren't used are taken over by regions that are used. in fact, if you lose a limb (say, in an accident), the area of your brain that was in charge of moving that limb will gradually be taken over by adjacent areas, until the unused cortex is being used again. fun stuff to study, since it relates to such disorders as "alien hand syndrome."

dead people! dead people! once they're dead, there really isn't much you can do about if they didn't accept God in their life.

but i still pray for my already dead grand daddy. dunno how it helps, but i do it.

and then i pray for my friends, my family. i prayed for you bottle, and i prayed for hakartopia. i prayed for people i don't know. iraqis. the korean who was kidnapped. the african children killed in the famines.

so you pray. but you don't give a damn. how nice.

i'm not talking about giving pity to people who are dead. i am talking about your decision to worship a being that is tormenting those dead people for all enternity, for nothing more than the crime of not knowing about God. if your God is real, and souls are real, then dead isn't just dead...dead means now God gets to directly torture you at his whim, rather than being hindered by your pesky free will.

i'm not wasting time giving compassion to the dead, because i believe the dead are gone and don't need compassion. what i am saying is that you are choosing to worship a being who you say is causing unending torment to people who just weren't lucky enough to find out about Him before they died. why would you worship that? because you are afraid? because he threatens you with torture as well? that's not a reason to obey somebody, that's a reason to fight them. fight back, and free yourself from the tyranical dictator you have installed as your overlord. don't just stay a slave because you are scared; there are plenty of people who will help you when you are ready to be freed.

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does .... with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

I think that even most atheists would be shocked at your assault on their intellect. These empty soundbites aren't even worth me typing about.

Long live the People!

so you pray. but you don't give a damn. how nice.

i'm not talking about giving pity to people who are dead. i am talking about your decision to worship a being that is tormenting those dead people for all enternity, for nothing more than the crime of not knowing about God. if your God is real, and souls are real, then dead isn't just dead...dead means now God gets to directly torture you at his whim, rather than being hindered by your pesky free will.

i'm not wasting time giving compassion to the dead, because i believe the dead are gone and don't need compassion. what i am saying is that you are choosing to worship a being who you say is causing unending torment to people who just weren't lucky enough to find out about Him before they died. why would you worship that? because you are afraid? because he threatens you with torture as well? that's not a reason to obey somebody, that's a reason to fight them. fight back, and free yourself from the tyranical dictator you have installed as your overlord. don't just stay a slave because you are scared; there are plenty of people who will help you when you are ready to be freed.

i wouldn't have prayed if i don't care, would i....?

to get eternal life, you need not acknowledge your God if you didn't know about him:

"But Jesus said, Let the little ones come to me, and do not keep them away: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14

"And one came to him and said, Master, what good thing have I to do, so that I may have eternal life? And he said to him, Why are you questioning me about what is good? One there is who is good: but if you have a desire to go into life, keep the rules of the law. He says to him, Which? And Jesus said, Do not put anyone to death, Do not be untrue in married life, Do not take what is not yours, Do not give false witness, Give honour to your father and your mother: and, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself."" Matthew 19:16-19

actually, the "humans only use 10% of their brains" thing is a myth. we now know what over half of our brain function is for, though we don't completely understand it, and we know for a fact that ALL brain tissue is being used. we can tell this by using fMRI scans or other techniques, and we can measure the energy consumption of the brain without much trouble.

humans ARE using their whole brain, and, in fact, as you age the parts of your brain that aren't used are taken over by regions that are used. in fact, if you lose a limb (say, in an accident), the area of your brain that was in charge of moving that limb will gradually be taken over by adjacent areas, until the unused cortex is being used again. fun stuff to study, since it relates to such disorders as "alien hand syndrome."

You are right my friend, the 10% brain thing refers to the truth that only 10% of our brain by volume is devouted to voulntary thought processes.

I'm, as I've posted before, an athiest. When I'm a good person, it's for the sake of being a good person; not because it's written in a book that if I'm *not* a good person, I shall be punished. Doing good in the hopes of getting rewarded (heaven, anyone), is not truly being good. It's being human.

When I do bad things, I accept that they are bad, and I either do my best to minimise the pain caused by my actions, or I explain my reasons for believing myself justified. I'll never claim I did something bad because Satan made me do it, I'll never give God and his plans the credit for my actions.

I believe in science because it fits with my knowledge of the world. People who claim that 'looking at the world' is proof of God are uneducated. That's not an insult - seriously, they need to take a biology course, followed by physics, geology, psychology and philosophy. Saying "I do not understand how this could be, thus it has to be a *made* thing" is taking the lazy way out.

If I am wrong, and there is a God, and I go to hell for not accepting him, then He was never worthy of my respect anyway. If He is the God that Christians preach about, he will forgive me for not believing what any random person told me. The same goes for any other god - any supreme being that would punish me for exploring my own mind is unworthy of respect, let alone worship.

I have no respect for anyone who tried to convert me. By preaching baseless facts and arrogant assumptions at me, you have forced me further and further and further away from God. Next time you open your mouth to convince someone to believe in Jesus and God, consider how much harm you may actually be doing.

i am disappointed and sad at your stance. i really am. i don't know what's happened in your life to reject God so much, but i hope that one day you will feel Him reaching you.

as you urge others to accept science and other fields, have you yourself tried to open up and accept the possible presence of a God? of a God who loves you with all His might? loving you so much He died horribly to rescue you from sin? nobody can force you to accept God. it is a personal journey walked by yourself. my dear shaed, i just really really hope one day you will let Him find you. :)

i wouldn't have prayed if i don't care, would i....?


but, by your own words, the dead are none of our business. why would you insult God by praying for the dead, when He knows best and will do the right thing with them? are you implying that He might not care for the dead propperly unless you ask him to? or that He will change His sentence for the dead just because a human asks?

why would you need or want to pray for the dead, if they are in God's hands? are you worried they might not be happy? if they aren't then it must be because God decided to punish them, and you shouldn't question that. praying just implies that you know better than God or that you expect Him to change things merely to please you. He knows best, it is not for us to try to reason or change things. why would you be at all concerned?

but, by your own words, the dead are none of our business. why would you insult God by praying for the dead, when He knows best and will do the right thing with them? are you implying that He might not care for the dead propperly unless you ask him to? or that He will change His sentence for the dead just because a human asks?

why would you need or want to pray for the dead, if they are in God's hands? are you worried they might not be happy? if they aren't then it must be because God decided to punish them, and you shouldn't question that. praying just implies that you know better than God or that you expect Him to change things merely to please you. He knows best, it is not for us to try to reason or change things. why would you be at all concerned?

"I say to you that even so there will be more joy in heaven when one sinner is turned away from his wrongdoing, than for ninety-nine good men, who have no need of a change of heart." Luke 15:7

don't underestimate the power of prayer. while God knows what is best for you and will give it to you, a prayer means that you are willing to lay down your concerns in the hands of God and let Him guide you.

God will be thousands of times happier than i would be if my grand daddy really converted posthumously. well, i wouldn't know, would i.

i think i may have created some kind of misunderstanding...i don't mean not caring for the dead, but i mean "why worry about the others when you yourself have not been sorted out yet". if you really worry about your loved ones you should work hard to get them saved after you are.

Oh and, for the record, I am a non-practicing Catholic. Which pretty much just means I'm an agnostinc, which is pretty much just an optomistic atheist. SO at core I guess I'm an atheist. Why you ask? I've gone to catholic school for 12 years now, and I've had religion classes all the way through that. Now you see the problem with that is the fact that they teach you that it is important to analyze things and question concepts if you don't understand. Since religion is a heap of garbage that disolves into nothingness when analyzed because it it based upon the principle of a boogie-man existing. That and when people answer all of your questions with either a) faith (the non-answer cop-out) or b) another question or c) a supporting cite from another point in the bible, which doesn't really count since things can't self-support. All that compounded with the biggotry, violence, hate, hipocracy and destruction of freedom that is inspired by religion has continuously soured me to it over the years. Hence I believe it about as far as I can throw a church.

"I say to you that even so there will be more joy in heaven when one sinner is turned away from his wrongdoing, than for ninety-nine good men, who have no need of a change of heart." Luke 15:7

don't underestimate the power of prayer. while God knows what is best for you and will give it to you, a prayer means that you are willing to lay down your concerns in the hands of God and let Him guide you.

God will be thousands of times happier than i would be if my grand daddy really converted posthumously. well, i wouldn't know, would i.

i think i may have created some kind of misunderstanding...i don't mean not caring for the dead, but i mean "why worry about the others when you yourself have not been sorted out yet". if you really worry about your loved ones you should work hard to get them saved after you are.

you seem to not be reading any of what i have written.

if your God sent people to Hell just because they never heard about him, that's not something you can say "doesn't matter." if God did that, then why would you worship him? and, what's more, why would you EVER want your loved ones to be "saved" by such a horrible diety? wouldn't you be better served praying that they will escape the clutches of the horrible being that sentences the innocent to eternities of pain and suffering? why would you have any faith in God's justice, if He would hand down such unfair rules?

you seem to think it doesn't matter, since that's what you explicitly said, but i think it very much does matter. if i were one of your family members i would be insulted by your efforts to "save" me, since you obviously don't care enough to put serious thought into it. sure, you want me to be "saved," but you haven't bothered to find out if the being doing the "saving" is a wonderful God or a hideous tormentor. more than that, you don't even CARE! you don't give a damn how unjust He is, you just want to believe, and to risk your family on your desire to be ruled by something.

i don't think any benevolent Creator would be proud of these attitudes, and i can only hope that if there IS a hell it has a special room reserved for the willfully ignorant.

it's the paradox of religion, this "god" guy has a place of fire and burning and loathing and torture and death and pain and he will send you there for all eternity..... but he loves you!

I believe in God,and i'm not ashamed of it. My beliefs aren't based on facts or statistics, I believe because I have faith.
That's difficult for some people to understand or accept because they can't see God, and they think that they don't see God's work.

Whenever I am dreading something, when I really really don't want to face something, I pray and I ask God to help me. Sometimes he delivers and sometimes he doesn't. You could argue that it's just pure luck if that thing turns out well for me, but on the other hand maybe it's not.
It has already been said that God gave us free will, if we want to kill each other then he hasn't said that that is right, but he gave us a choice. So if you don't want to believe in him, then don't! That's YOUR choice.

I'm not a die hard Catholic but I try and live my life the way God wants me to. I do things that I know are wrong sometimes, but this world was not meant to be a prison, God made us so that we might live and enjoy ourselves! Just think about this; you can go through your whole life not believing in God and living the way you want, but at the end of your life when you die and maybe you find out that there IS a God, what're you gonna do then?

I can't prove that there is a God, but you can't prove to me that there isn't.

you seem to not be reading any of what i have written.

if your God sent people to Hell just because they never heard about him, that's not something you can say "doesn't matter." if God did that, then why would you worship him? and, what's more, why would you EVER want your loved ones to be "saved" by such a horrible diety? wouldn't you be better served praying that they will escape the clutches of the horrible being that sentences the innocent to eternities of pain and suffering? why would you have any faith in God's justice, if He would hand down such unfair rules?

you seem to think it doesn't matter, since that's what you explicitly said, but i think it very much does matter. if i were one of your family members i would be insulted by your efforts to "save" me, since you obviously don't care enough to put serious thought into it. sure, you want me to be "saved," but you haven't bothered to find out if the being doing the "saving" is a wonderful God or a hideous tormentor. more than that, you don't even CARE! you don't give a damn how unjust He is, you just want to believe, and to risk your family on your desire to be ruled by something.

i don't think any benevolent Creator would be proud of these attitudes, and i can only hope that if there IS a hell it has a special room reserved for the willfully ignorant.
you're absolutely right. i have to apologise for my incorrect use of words and creating this misunderstanding but being incompassionate is certainly not on my agenda. apparently i think religion in chinese, and so words directly translated from chinese may have different meanings in english. i'm sorry. i didn't mean whatever you're thinking i meant.

it's the paradox of religion, this "god" guy has a place of fire and burning and loathing and torture and death and pain and he will send you there for all eternity..... but he loves you!

God loves you, but at the same time He is a just and fair God, and you ultimately will have to pay for your sins.

it's like saying a dad loves you, but at the same time punishes you for anything you do wrong.

if He doesn't love you, he would have let you continue with your sins and punish you at the end. the fact that He is allowing all of us to live is to give a chance to acknowledge before we die, or we may never have the chance.

God loves you, but at the same time He is a just and fair God, and you ultimately will have to pay for your sins.


You say just and fair, I say two-timing and vengeful. Matter of opinion.

God loves you, but at the same time He is a just and fair God, and you ultimately will have to pay for your sins.

it's like saying a dad loves you, but at the same time punishes you for anything you do wrong.

if He doesn't love you, he would have let you continue with your sins and punish you at the end. the fact that He is allowing all of us to live is to give a chance to acknowledge before we die, or we may never have the chance.
i have to resort to some one else questions

you get punished for doing something wrong yes, but god punishes you for ETERNITY for ANYTHING you do wrong

You say just and fair, I say two-timing and vengeful. Matter of opinion.

say your father is a judge. you were arrested for a crime - say stealing. your father has to sentence you, but he still loves you, doesn't he? is your father two-timing and vengeful?

say your father is a judge. you were arrested for a crime - say stealing. your father has to sentence you, but he still loves you, doesn't he? is your father two-timing and vengeful?
In your eyes, perhaps, but only because of your relationship to him because you feel betrayed, even if you id deserve it.

In your eyes, perhaps, but only because of your relationship to him because you feel betrayed, even if you id deserve it.
exactly what my answer would have been had I gotten to it first.

God loves you, but at the same time He is a just and fair God, and you ultimately will have to pay for your sins.

it's like saying a dad loves you, but at the same time punishes you for anything you do wrong.

if He doesn't love you, he would have let you continue with your sins and punish you at the end. the fact that He is allowing all of us to live is to give a chance to acknowledge before we die, or we may never have the chance.

There's a difference between being grounded for a week and being cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

For all this talk of free will, is there any room for mitigating circumstances? Would Hitler have become a psychotic racist if his father hadn't been an abusive monster, and he hadn't suffered through the warping misery of the trenches of WWI? If the answer is "yes", then we're into the realm of people being "born evil" which kind of blows the whole free will argument out of the water. If the answer is "no", then would it be just to punish him for his actions whilst rewarding the inoffensive lukewarm-good actions of someone who never had to endure what he endured? And can eternal torment -- ceaseless, everlasting torture for all eternity -- be a just punishment for anything?

exactly what my answer would have been had I gotten to it first.
Yes, I agree.

This would be a common reply because it is only naturally human for someone to feel betrayed by a loved one, because after all, you trust them... But then they have to lay judgement down and that's when the problem arises.

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamsterGOD BLESS YOU!!!

There's a difference between being grounded for a week and being cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

For all this talk of free will, is there any room for mitigating circumstances? Would Hitler have become a psychotic racist if his father hadn't been an abusive monster, and he hadn't suffered through the warping misery of the trenches of WWI? If the answer is "yes", then we're into the realm of people being "born evil" which kind of blows the whole free will argument out of the water. If the answer is "no", then would it be just to punish him for his actions whilst rewarding the inoffensive lukewarm-good actions of someone who never had to endure what he endured? And can eternal torment -- ceaseless, everlasting torture for all eternity -- be a just punishment for anything?

Well said.

you're absolutely right. i have to apologise for my incorrect use of words and creating this misunderstanding but being incompassionate is certainly not on my agenda. apparently i think religion in chinese, and so words directly translated from chinese may have different meanings in english. i'm sorry. i didn't mean whatever you're thinking i meant.

feel free to try again; if this is a genuine misunderstanding due to communication and language problems then i would love to straighten it out. i don't see what alternate translations might be possible that would resolve the issues i have described, and you seemed very clear and definitive in your original posts, but please do correct anything you feel i have misunderstood.

For all this talk of free will, is there any room for mitigating circumstances? Would Hitler have become a psychotic racist if his father hadn't been an abusive monster, and he hadn't suffered through the warping misery of the trenches of WWI? If the answer is "yes", then we're into the realm of people being "born evil" which kind of blows the whole free will argument out of the water. If the answer is "no", then would it be just to punish him for his actions whilst rewarding the inoffensive lukewarm-good actions of someone who never had to endure what he endured? And can eternal torment -- ceaseless, everlasting torture for all eternity -- be a just punishment for anything?

excellent point. as a friend of mine puts it, the common concept of free will is like an abusive boyfriend telling his girlfriend, "do whatever you choose, but if you decide to leave me i will hunt you down and beat you to death." any human who made such hideous promises would be considered dangerous, criminal, and probably insane. but we call God "loving" for making the exact same promise to His "children": you have free will, but if you don't make the choice i want you to make then i will torture you for the rest of eternity.

enjoy your freedom!

excellent point. as a friend of mine puts it, the common concept of free will is like an abusive boyfriend telling his girlfriend, "do whatever you choose, but if you decide to leave me i will hunt you down and beat you to death." any human who made such hideous promises would be considered dangerous, criminal, and probably insane. but we call God "loving" for making the exact same promise to His "children": you have free will, but if you don't make the choice i want you to make then i will torture you for the rest of eternity.

enjoy your freedom!

Maybe god would benefit from some of these anti-psychotic drugs that we've developed over their years, it could do wonders for his anger levels and bi-polar disorder.

Maybe god would benefit from some of these anti-psychotic drugs that we've developed over their years, it could do wonders for his anger levels and bi-polar disorder.
we could only be so lucky. from how the Bible tells it, God needs some serious medication and counciling to deal with his tantrums and self-control problems.

There's a difference between being grounded for a week and being cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

For all this talk of free will, is there any room for mitigating circumstances? Would Hitler have become a psychotic racist if his father hadn't been an abusive monster, and he hadn't suffered through the warping misery of the trenches of WWI? If the answer is "yes", then we're into the realm of people being "born evil" which kind of blows the whole free will argument out of the water. If the answer is "no", then would it be just to punish him for his actions whilst rewarding the inoffensive lukewarm-good actions of someone who never had to endure what he endured? And can eternal torment -- ceaseless, everlasting torture for all eternity -- be a just punishment for anything?

You make an interesting point, but personal responsibility must also be considered. Many people had abusive fathers and suffered through the warping misery of the trenches of WWI and didn't choose to be fascist megalomaniacs who wiped out a significant portion of the entire European Jewish population. While I'm not a proponent of judgement in a divine sense, I do think that, even though Hitler may have had it rough, ultimately his actions were his to decide and, if any divine judgement does indeed occur, it's the essence of those choices that he did make which would be judged.

I don't believe in God either. I have my own reasons for it. I remember in my health class, we took a self esteem test. One question was, do you believe the is a higher being that decides our fates? I said no, and that apparently lowers my self-esteem. wtf?

I don't believe in God either. I have my own reasons for it. I remember in my health class, we took a self esteem test. One question was, do you believe the is a higher being that decides our fates? I said no, and that apparently lowers my self-esteem. wtf?
It means the test is bias and the morons who wrote it are religious.

I don't believe in God either. I have my own reasons for it. I remember in my health class, we took a self esteem test. One question was, do you believe the is a higher being that decides our fates? I said no, and that apparently lowers my self-esteem. wtf?

This reminds me of a story. When I was in college, a group of friends and I had gathered at a local diner to study for a biology final. After a couple of hours of study, we felt a lot more stupid than when we started and, as we left the diner, we noticed this sign pointing up a set of stairs. The sign said in big, bold red letter, "Free IQ tests." Well, we figured we might as well test out our new found stupidity, so we marched up the stairs. At intervals along the way were these airbrushed pictures of a guy who sort of looked like a priest meeting with various people and slogans like, "This is a monitor," and "He will not judge you."

When we got to the room at the top of the stairs, we realized we'd walked into the local Scientology office. There were copies of Dianetics everywhere. On tables, on bookshelves, they even had a little pyramid of them set up behind the toilet. We were greeted by some very ernest if somewhat machanical people and said we'd like to take their free IQ test. Well, they were unprepared for about five people wanting to take it all at once, so they offered to let some of us take the IQ test and some take a personality inventory. I opted for the personality inventory and was shown into a little room and given this huge list of questions like, "Do you feel sad?" and "Do you suddenly burst out singing for no reason?" So I answered their questions and turned in the forms.

We waited a bit and then they took us one by one into little rooms and gave us our results. From me shamefully admitting that sometimes I burst into song (mind you, I had just switched my major from vocal music performance to biology), the lady who was litterally reading from a script inferred that I was depressed, lacked direction in life, could fly into homicidal rages at any given moment and shared many personality traits with Hitler. Luckily, though, even as my life seemed like a bleak and barren wasteland, she offered me, straight from her script, the means of salvation: Scientology can help you with that. This was the mantra and, since I obviously needed help, I let her explain Scientology to me. So, she pulled out a different script and asked me the question: Have you ever considered a tractor. After a moment of stunned silence as I questioned everything I had ever believed in the twenty some odd years of my life up to that point and wondered how I could possible have not considered tractors in all that time, I admitted that I had not and could this lack of consideration be the possible root cause of my homicidal vocal melodic outbursts? She sort of looked at me and said, "No, I mean really considered what it is?"

To this day, I'm still not sure exactly what the point of Scientology is, apart from considering tractors.

I don't believe in God either. I have my own reasons for it. I remember in my health class, we took a self esteem test. One question was, do you believe the is a higher being that decides our fates? I said no, and that apparently lowers my self-esteem. wtf?

Hehehehe, that's funny. Since you think you control your own fate, thus empowering yourself to think that you can make a difference in your life, you have lower self esteem. That my friends is a little somethin we call irony.

how can you be punished for a deed you don't know there was a law that was against it? it's not the fault of the native american living in 900A.D. to not have heard of the one, true Lord and His plans to save the world.

don't ask me.... I may be divine, but I didn't write that particular book.

Just telling you about what it says.

e.g. John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

It's pretty unequivocal... if you believe the Bible, you're stuck with it.

"But Jesus said, Let the little ones come to me, and do not keep them away: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14

"And one came to him and said, Master, what good thing have I to do, so that I may have eternal life? And he said to him, Why are you questioning me about what is good? One there is who is good: but if you have a desire to go into life, keep the rules of the law. He says to him, Which? And Jesus said, Do not put anyone to death, Do not be untrue in married life, Do not take what is not yours, Do not give false witness, Give honour to your father and your mother: and, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself."" Matthew 19:16-19

Yes - but Matthew 19:14 fits in with John 3:18... if you don't convert the children, they still fry - all the children, all the little babies. Screaming in hell for all eternity.

Which is, of course, why Cortes 'saved' all the pagan south-american babies, by blessing them, and smashing their brains out on the rocks.

And Matthew 19:16-19 is IN ADDITION to John 3:18. You have to believe, AND follow the commandments. Or you're screwed.

Hehehehehe believe the bible...... for face value even....... *cackals uncontrolably*..... now that is commedy.

I believe in God,and i'm not ashamed of it. My beliefs aren't based on facts or statistics........

And there, the argument rests.

Hehehehehe believe the bible...... for face value even....... *cackals uncontrolably*..... now that is commedy.

i'd say tragedy, but that's just because i have more compassion than the Christian God.