NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

Well hot damn! You sure convinced me Mr. Unregistered Big-talker!

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

I'm pretty damn sure I can train a hamster to make less typos than that.


I believe in God, I rebel, I do control myself, I am myself.

And besides, I'll use Christianity since I am not Christian...

Why would a buncha people want to convert people to Christians...especially since Christians were persecuted by Rome? Obviously, some kind of rebellion must occur if they wanted to continue being Christians and live longer than 15.



So, what I'm trying to say is

http://www.lundskolen.horsens.dk/klasser/96/Elevmapper/Anne/billeder/blink3.jpg

These guys are cooler than you.

SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! If you don't care what we think, why should we care what you think?

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does. No you don't. Give me indisputable evidence that says that there can not be a god, as in someone dying and comming back to life and saying there was nothing on the other side. That said, there is no way to prove God or no God until you die. No one knows.

i have a bit more IQ then a hamster This, my friend, can be argued.

it's just some 10 year old thinking he can piss off people. No better than many other radical users that we've seen before.

Piss off and register if you want people to take you seriously

The fact that this thread is here may be compelling evidence for the non-existance of God.

Now, would that be irony, or just annoying?

it's just some 10 year old thinking he can piss off people. No better than many other radical users that we've seen before.

Piss off and register if you want people to take you seriously
Yes, that I afree with, even if I do think "God" doesn't exist.

After all, there is a more mature way to prove that "God" doesn't exist, such as saying, "ok, so, if God exists, why is there so much evil in the world? Why does he permit his own creations to kill each other? Shouldn't he stop this from happening?"

Colodia, you are a radical user. Aren't you a conservative Christian nutjob or something?

Anyways, I'd just like to point out that the top happiest nations are all liberal.

Nya Nya.

But on that note, this thread is stupid. You can't prove that gods are lies. You can only prove the alleged gods are lies. i.e. You can prove Pythagoras was not a god, and that the Pythagorean cult was a load of bunk. (Like wise with other such cults).

How could such a all-knowing person such as The Unholy Ones make so many typos?

Pfff!
Idiot.

This thread calls for a The Nice Guy pic.
Ah! This one works.
http://www.geocities.com/arforfaborb/mty/Images/NiceWORK2.jpg

Colodia, you are a radical user. Aren't you a conservative Christian nutjob or something?

Anyways, I'd just like to point out that the top happiest nations are all liberal.

Nya Nya.

But on that note, this thread is stupid. You can't prove that gods are lies. You can only prove the alleged gods are lies. i.e. You can prove Pythagoras was not a god, and that the Pythagorean cult was a load of bunk. (Like wise with other such cults).
I'm not Christian

Thus I am just an opressed person with a voice :P

Wait, here's a more important question. Why am I an "Aimbot"? What is an "Aimbot" anyway? I don't think I want to be an Aimbot. Are there twelve step programs I can attend to help me surrender my Aimbot addiction to a higher power which, according to the OP of this thread, doesn't exist? I'm terribly confused.

first of, im an athiest whos becomin a pagan (dont ask). but first i gotta clear something up.

Are we debating if God exists, or are we debating if what man says about God is true?

i do find ur title amusing. ur sayin god is a lie, but ur asking god to damn something. 'god is a god damn lie' is oxymoronic. :D

Wait, here's a more important question. Why am I am "Aimbot"? What is an "Aimbot" anyway? I don't think I want to be an Aimbot. Are there twelve step programs I can attend to help me surrender my Aimbot addiction to a higher power which, according to the OP of this thread, doesn't exist? I'm terribly confused.
It's a hack that lets people to cheat online

After all, there is a more mature way to prove that "God" doesn't exist, such as saying, "ok, so, if God exists, why is there so much evil in the world? Why does he permit his own creations to kill each other? Shouldn't he stop this from happening?"

Free will.
God gave it to us. He apparently considers this gift so significant that He won't take it back, no matter what we do with it.

first of, im an athiest whos becomin a pagan (dont ask). but first i gotta clear something up.

Are we debating if God exists, or are we debating if what man says about God is true?

I know you told us not to ask, but I really have to.

Why are you becoming a pagan?

I don't know what we're debating; the initial post was so confused I didn't want to reply to it.

PEOPLE UR NOT DEBATING WHETHER GOD EXISTS!

YOU'RE DEBATING IF WHAT MAN KINDS SAYS ABOUT GOD IS TRUE!

*cough*

im becoming a pagan mainly because it is the very first human religion. all about authentisity.

first of, im an athiest whos becomin a pagan (dont ask). but first i gotta clear something up.

Are we debating if God exists, or are we debating if what man says about God is true?

We're not really debating either because this poster isn't interested in debate, just in pressing buttons.

Your question is interesting, though. :)

I'm not Christian

Thus I am just an opressed person with a voice :P

But you are still a conservative nutjob? Huh... It's always unnerving when common stereotypes breakdown.

If God isn't real then how can God damn the lie? Nice thread title. You just proved a point.

It's a hack that lets people to cheat online

Sweet! I'm totally bringing word games back, then, with my elite h4xxorz skillz!

I wonder how I use them...

I heard it was hot in hell i hope you are hot blooded...that was a dumb wish! Have fun in Hell Satan!!

But you are still a conservative nutjob? Huh... It's always unnerving when common stereotypes breakdown.
I'm liberal...who holds SOME conservative beliefs (gun control, capital punishment)

right on my militant liberal brother!

All of you people have the despicable presumption that there is solely one god.

You also have the annoying habit of typing god with a capital "g". Since gods are solely conceptual, such as the ideals of truth, justice, good, evil, et al, it is grammatically and logically correct to use lower case when writing the word "god" or "gods".

It very much aggravates me.

Ergo: "god" is lower cased. Amun-Ra, Jesus, Yahweh, Allah, Mithra, Zeus, Brahma, and Elrond Hubber are are capitalized.

I believe in god...
[ frolics through mental utopia ]
lalalalalalalalalalalalala
Believe it or not. "Sola Fidelis"

I'm liberal...who holds SOME conservative beliefs (gun control, capital punishment)

Well put make up on me and call me Susie!

-No, really, please. I want to be called Susie, dammit.-

Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else.

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

Oh... where to begin? Oh right, the spelling and of course the choice of words.

So, if you expected us to take you seriously, why didn't you bother to check your spelling, or better yet, spelling with grammar? Why didn't you reconsider your choice of words? You could have said this without the inflammatory commentary, however, it seems to be out of your mental realm. However, screaming like a little child dying for attention from the adults because we decided that we would much rather have a mature and intellectual discussion instead of a mud-slinging fest.

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

Oh, so now we're an all knowing being, are we now? Well, I can say God doesn't exist, because if you did, it would be raining fire and brimstone on you now for that blasphomous syntax and spelling!

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

Oh goody! Not only is this a grammatical atrocity, but the information is also blatanltly incorrect and as an Athiest, I noticed this. I'm surprised that no one else has. Anyway... now for the fun part...

God is just a supreme being. He never stopped any form of rebellion, instead, he let it happened and then let the Angels who rebelled against him free-fall all the way into the bosom of Lucifer.

Also, we haven't blown up the world yet because we have societal laws.

Now then, the commandments - you might want to check your spelling on this - were numbered at 10; you might also want to brush up on your math. They were given to Moses on Mount Sinai because there was a need for law. In fact, Christian law is largely based off the 10 commandments.
1 - Thou shalt not kill
2 - Thou shalt not steal
3 - Thou shalt honour thy father and mother
4 - Thou shalt not convet thy neighbour's wife
5 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
6 - Thou shalt not commit adultery
7 - Thou shalt not convet thy neighbour's goods
8 - Remember the Sabbath
9 - Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain
10 - I am thy God, thou shalt not worship any strange Gods before me

Commandments number 1-7 are in some way part of our laws. 1,2,5 & 7 are actually somewhere in our laws. While it is religious it actually gives us the laws that keep the society from breaking down into total anarchy.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

No, our civilization's laws keep us at bay.

God isn't designed so we don't destroy each other. In fact, he had been the start of many wars; the Cursades for the Holy Land and Jihad are just two examples.

The original gods were developed because people needed a simple answer to why they had a hard life.

Now that I'm done discrediting you, I shall say this, you are a blundering idiot who needs to do more research just to have the IQ of an amoeba.

I wonder how I use them...

I guess you use the command line, or maybe it just works without doing anything.

Well put make up on me and call me Susie!

-No, really, please. I want to be called Susie, dammit.-

Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else.
Susie, you might be mistakin me for Capsule Corp

or someone else...I dunno

You can find your frickin answer by looking in france. Go look for what the templars were gaurding.... Look up Templars

First off..... what compelled u to even post that! Nobody carez what ur beliefz are, so u simply wasted ur time! Second.... it'z not the seven commandment, there'z actually ten! I thought i'd drop some knowledge on u there!And i just have one more thing to say! Have a nice time in hell, cuz thatz where all u non-god believerz go! Byeness!!

im becoming a pagan mainly because it is the very first human religion. all about authentisity.

I wholeheartedly recommend that you look at Christianity instead of paganism, mainly because paganism is Satan worship in nearly its purest form, and when God wraps up this world and starts the next, you would be in deep s**t as a pagan (when the Bible uses the term "lake of fire and burning sulphur" to describe the place God assigns people to who do not choose to worship Him alone, it's not implying a fun party).
True Christianity is older than humanity itself, and much more authentic than anything else in history, 'cause God has always been God. I'm four years, four-and-a-half months in, and this is real life, life to the max, like the Pepsi ads say.
You have the choice; make it a good one.

All of you people have the despicable presumption that there is solely one god. That, my friend, is another arguement for another time. Neither one of us can prove there is one, nor two, nor fifty thousand god(s).

You also have the annoying habit of typing god with a capital "g". People who believe in one god call God, well, God. That's his name. If I am not mistaken, a name is capitalized. You could gripe about someone saying 'His' instead of 'his,' I suppose.

I wholeheartedly recommend that you look at Christianity instead of paganism, mainly because paganism is Satan worship in nearly its purest form, and when God wraps up this world and starts the next, you would be in deep s**t as a pagan (when the Bible uses the term "lake of fire and burning sulphur" to describe the place God assigns people to who do not choose to worship Him alone, it's not implying a fun party).
True Christianity is older than humanity itself, and much more authentic than anything else in history, 'cause God has always been God. I'm four years, four-and-a-half months in, and this is real life, life to the max, like the Pepsi ads say.
You have the choice; make it a good one.

You really know nothing about any "religion" do you. Paganism isn't necessarilly satanism. And Christianity is only about 1700 years old. (The major cult following only started after Constantine made it an official Roman religion after the cult became too big for him to control.)

When I look at Christianity, I laugh.

That, my friend, is another arguement for another time. Neither one of us can prove there is one, nor two, nor fifty thousand god(s).

People who believe in one god call God, well, God. That's his name. If I am not mistaken, a name is capitalized. You could gripe about someone saying 'His' instead of 'his,' I suppose.

The term "God" is not in any of the fairy tale books held dear by those religions. It comes from the German word "gott" meaning that which is invoked.
Thence, it is NOT the name of any deity.

Then again, the implied religion I'm talking about had followers who were nearly all illiterate till around the 1500s.
Most of them are just as stupid in this day and age, and therefor don't even ponder the fact that their term for their deity is not derived from the sources ("holy" books) allegedly dictated by the god, but actually merely bastardizations of a meaningless German phrase.
Furthermore, they are so egocentric that they claim to speak the language of the gods, knowing the "true" name, and thereby giving it the right to BE capitalized.

**sighs** Gents, try to convort with telegrams. We're all (hopefully) thinking, concious people here. And honestly, you can really just stop tryibng to spread the word of jesus here entirely. I doubt anyone who has the capabilities of the internet DOESN'T know about christianity.

First off..... what compelled u to even post that! Nobody carez what ur beliefz are, so u simply wasted ur time! Second.... it'z not the seven commandment, there'z actually ten! I thought i'd drop some knowledge on u there!And i just have one more thing to say! Have a nice time in hell, cuz thatz where all u non-god believerz go! Byeness!!

"Hell" is very inspecific. Please clerify which mythology you are talking about.

(Not that I can't tell, you are just so incredibly feeble minded it's nice to tick you people off).

Jesus, Gandhi, Moses, and... the majority of scientists (who can actually perform miracles that save lives) are all non-Christians. So they are going to hell too?

What sort of elitist diety makes decisions like that? Or are you the one make these assertions?

You really know nothing about any "religion" do you. Paganism isn't necessarilly satanism. And Christianity is only about 1700 years old. (The major cult following only started after Constantine made it an official Roman religion after the cult became too big for him to control.)

If you look at reality, Christianity started about 2000 years ago, when Christ was crucified. If you choose to believe that Jesus did not exist, you can date the start of Christianity from when the Apostle Paul was founding churches across the Roman Empire, almost 2000 years ago. It did not become a STATE religion until COnstantine made it so, but that does not mean it did not exist.

The original religion was a monotheistic religion from which Judiasim came. Paganism came AFTER the worship of God (whith a capitol "G"), it is a corruption of the truth.

God exists, He created the universe. To praphrase Romans, God left enough evidence in His creation that He exists, so that men are without excuse when the do not believe in Him.

When comparing our spelling and writing abilities, it looks like you're the much better candidate for "stupid" between the two of us. I wouldn't want to take that title away from you. It looks like you're put a lot of effort forth to earn it.

And the proof that Paganism came last and is corruption is...?

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

Normally, I'd act all nice and shit, asking why you don't believe, but I'm lazy and I don't have time, so here comes my true opinion:
You're a fucking retard! Tell God He doesn't exist to His face when you die and go to Hell!

You really know nothing about any "religion" do you. Paganism isn't necessarilly satanism. And Christianity is only about 1700 years old. (The major cult following only started after Constantine made it an official Roman religion after the cult became too big for him to control.)

When I look at Christianity, I laugh.

I believe that satanism, witchcraft, paganism, Wicca, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, spiritualism, existentialism and many, many belief systems are fundamentally opposed to the good news about Jesus Christ, who is the truth. I reckon that Constantine's recognition of Christianity was one of the worst things that happened to it in its history, which is why I and my fellow believers go back to the Bible (all written before A.D. 120) to determine God's will, in an attempt to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

And I believe God weeps over you, and longs for you to turn to Him, accept His forgiveness, and receive the life He has for you.

Don't you hate people who run in, post something, and run out with arms flailing and giggling wildly? That's how I picture he who started this thread. I find it satisfying that he was baleeted so quickly.

If you look at reality, Christianity started about 2000 years ago, when Christ was crucified. If you choose to believe that Jesus did not exist, you can date the start of Christianity from when the Apostle Paul was founding churches across the Roman Empire, almost 2000 years ago. It did not become a STATE religion until COnstantine made it so, but that does not mean it did not exist.

The original religion was a monotheistic religion from which Judiasim came. Paganism came AFTER the worship of God (whith a capitol "G"), it is a corruption of the truth.

God exists, He created the universe. To praphrase Romans, God left enough evidence in His creation that He exists, so that men are without excuse when the do not believe in Him.

Such a lovely elitist post. Paganism came before Christianity.
In fact, Christianity stole (or rather, assimilated) a majority of it's doctrines and mythology from the cult that worshipped Mithra.

You say "Him" but "God" is actually modeled after modeled after humans and cherubim, so it would be more of a hermaphrodite.

Judaism took it's concept of duality from Zoroastrianism, and it's moral and legal rulings were inspired by law codes of the various Mesopatamian regions they lived in.

Christianity didn't become the religion it is today until the Council of Niscea where they decided whether the Arian belief that Christ was merely a prophet was right or that the opposing belief that Christ was a god was correct.
Further councils shaped the cult into the (ironically substantially less defined) religion it is today.

I believe that satanism, witchcraft, paganism, Wicca, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, spiritualism, existentialism and many, many belief systems are fundamentally opposed to the good news about Jesus Christ, who is the truth. I reckon that Constantine's recognition of Christianity was one of the worst things that happened to it in its history, which is why I and my fellow believers go back to the Bible (all written before A.D. 120) to determine God's will, in an attempt to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

And I believe God weeps over you, and longs for you to turn to Him, accept His forgiveness, and receive the life He has for you.


Whoop de fucking do.

Stop the preaching, nobody's joining your religion over it.

LOL!

Incase any of you jack asses didn't realise i was indeed making aload of s*** up, and i admit it was really big s***. you don't seriously believe some one can belive all that, any ways i'd just like to say i did'nt mean any of what i said and im sorry to all those i offended

Normally, I'd act all nice and shit, asking why you don't believe, but I'm lazy and I don't have time, so here comes my true opinion:
You're a fucking retard! Tell God He doesn't exist to His face when you die and go to Hell!

Jebustan, what do you believe?

ahh yes, the old "God is fiction" rant. in other news, the sky is blue and bears shit in the woods.

yes, we all know religion is fiction. but think: if somebody is so miserable that they have to borrow somebody else's imaginary friend, then don't you think they need a little bit of a crutch just to get through life? let them have their security blanket, as long as they don't try to sell you one.

The thing is that no matter what you do, you cannot prove that there is no God. Really, try it sometime. I know I did for a year and a half. Nada suerte aqui senor. You can try to rationalize it away, but in the end, all you are promoting is your opinion that God does not exist.

As you can tell from my name, I kinda figure that God does exist. I was atheist for 16 years however, and I draw experience from that.

If you can show me irrefutable proof that there is no God, send me a message. I'll be happy to hear.

-R. S.

I believe that satanism, witchcraft, paganism, Wicca, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, spiritualism, existentialism and many, many belief systems are fundamentally opposed to the good news about Jesus Christ, who is the truth. I reckon that Constantine's recognition of Christianity was one of the worst things that happened to it in its history, which is why I and my fellow believers go back to the Bible (all written before A.D. 120) to determine God's will, in an attempt to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

And I believe God weeps over you, and longs for you to turn to Him, accept His forgiveness, and receive the life He has for you.

That would make "God" an elitist bully who has nothing better to do in his eternal loneliness than play games with mankind by sending mixed messages that determine their fate.
Now why would I worship something as twisted as that?
Why would I worship anything in the first place?
A TRUE god wouldn't demand worship. Only a weakling does that.

To give me free will and then punish me a twisted ideology, and simply said, your mythology is pretty new on the block. If anyone get's my praise, it's Athena.

You atheists make me sick. I don't care what you believe as long as it does not hurt others or make them join. G-d is the one who started the world, and you all know that. Before the big bang, what was there? Nothing, except g-d, who started the big bang. What about all the different christian, jewish, muslim and other prophets? They have infallible proof that their g-ds exist, something you didn't think about when you tried to shock people with your gothy, atheist thread. Next time you want more attention, why don't you do something useful, like planting a tree or get a job so that your parents doesn't have to work all day long to support you. Mabye then will you make sense in your statements, or at least find a different way to get attention. Try volunteering. They'll take anyone.

LOL!

Incase any of you jack asses didn't realise i was indeed making aload of s*** up, and i admit it was really big s***. you don't seriously believe some one can belive all that, any ways i'd just like to say i did'nt mean any of what i said and im sorry to all those i offended

It kind of sounded like it, particularly with the I.Q. comment at the end, but you really need to learn a bit more spelling and grammar.
And people really do believe what you presented as your beliefs.

The thing is that no matter what you do, you cannot prove that there is no God. Really, try it sometime. I know I did for a year and a half. Nada suerte aqui senor. You can try to rationalize it away, but in the end, all you are promoting is your opinion that God does not exist.

As you can tell from my name, I kinda figure that God does exist. I was atheist for 16 years however, and I draw experience from that.

If you can show me irrefutable proof that there is no God, send me a message. I'll be happy to hear.

-R. S.

You can't. But I can easily prove that any alleged deities and mythologies are wrong, contradictory, and wholly flawwed, and I can also say that the deification of a human is one of the most twisted and aggravating things I have to deal with on a daily basis.

Dude, Athena kicked ass. She was one of the greek gods/goddess that wasn't all screwed up.



It is impossible to prove that God exists, and it is impossible to prove that he does not exist.


Yes, I know I'm going to burn in hell. But hey, that's where all the cool people are going. I mean, I certainly don't wanna be up in heaven with the likes of YOU ;)


Jacob, interesting idea. All athiests live with their parents and don't have jobs? I like the theroy, but it has a few major flaws in it. Namely, it's one big damn lie. Work on it a bit, and we'll see how it goes ;)

You atheists make me sick. I don't care what you believe as long as it does not hurt others or make them join. G-d is the one who started the world, and you all know that. Before the big bang, what was there? Nothing, except g-d, who started the big bang. What about all the different christian, jewish, muslim and other prophets? They have infallible proof that their g-ds exist, something you didn't think about when you tried to shock people with your gothy, atheist thread. Next time you want more attention, why don't you do something useful, like planting a tree or get a job so that your parents doesn't have to work all day long to support you. Mabye then will you make sense in your statements, or at least find a different way to get attention. Try volunteering. They'll take anyone.

SLANDER!

I'm a fulltime student with a parttime job and I'm an athiest. So don't believe in God, but I do believe you're wrong about the attentipn part. There is just one loser who wanted it; other people are just replying and telling him why he's wrong.

Hey, I could easily say all religious whackos make me sick, but then the fanatics would have a bounty on my head. So, watch yourself.

That would make "God" an elitist bully who has nothing better to do in his eternal loneliness than play games with mankind by sending mixed messages that determine their fate.
Now why would I worship something as twisted as that?
Why would I worship anything in the first place?
A TRUE god wouldn't demand worship. Only a weakling does that.

To give me free will and then punish me a twisted ideology, and simply said, your mythology is pretty new on the block. If anyone get's my praise, it's Athena.

I know I can't get through to you with words, Saipea, but we're made to worship God. Athena is a demon, who doesn't love you, and definitely has nothing good for you after your life on earth ends. I pray you recognise the truth before it's too late.

Yeah, yeah, "blahblahblah, you're wrong I'm right just because."

I noticed you haven't tried recruit-I'm sorry, converting me. But see, I used to be a christian until I opened my eyes, so that may not work so well.

So does that make me doubley condemned? Or is just a lower circle, if you're into that whole thing?

The term "God" is not in any of the fairy tale books held dear by those religions. It comes from the German word "gott" meaning that which is invoked.
Thence, it is NOT the name of any diety. Read the Bible. It clearly says God on multiple occasions, and in the original text it was probably the Hebrew/Greek/Whatever equivelent, unless translators mysteriously mistranslated this in every English version of the Bible I've read. It even refers to God as God in the first line of scripture.

And here I thought his name was Yahweh. Those silly jews.

What about all the different christian, jewish, muslim and other prophets? They have infallible proof that their g-ds exist.What proof is that? That they believe in him?

First of all let me just say that the person who made this thread is not in any sense a propper example of how most atheists are. just as members of the klu klux klan do not give a good example of how most christians are.


Now, lets discuss the issue at hand.


"They have infallible proof that their g-ds exist, something you didn't think about when you tried to shock people with your gothy, atheist thread. Next time you want more attention, why don't you do something useful, like planting a tree or get a job so that your parents doesn't have to work all day long to support you. Mabye then will you make sense in your statements, or at least find a different way to get attention. Try volunteering. They'll take anyone. "

I sure would love to see this "infallible proof" you talk about. Actually it would be a shock to most of the world. So please... share this proof with me, enlightnen me *smirk*

The truth is there is no solid evidence for any god existing.


Lets take a look at christianity... a religion that is strikingly simular to many other religions, including lots of pagan ones.


The christ figure for example...

He truly is not even an original character. In fact if he ever even existed at all his image has been distorted with so many lies and filled with such fantasy that the man is probably as simular to the myth as a grape is to a raisin


Lets take a look at the simularities between the beloved jesus and other religious godmen.

First up: Buddha.
1. Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."
2. Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples.
3. He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
4. He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
5. He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
6. Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.
7. He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
8. Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"
9. the "Carpenter"
10. He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."


Next up we have the lovely pagan god: Horus
1. Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
2. He had 12 disciples.
3. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
4. He walked on water.
5. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
6. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
7. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish
8. Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.


Next we have: Mithra The Sungod of persia. The story of mithra was around atleast 500 years before christianity, Shortly before the rise of christianity The cult of mithra was the most widespread and popular pagan religion of the time.
1. Mithra was born on December 25th.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. He performed miracles.
5. He was buried in a tomb.
6. After three days he rose again.
7. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
8. Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
9. He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
10. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
11. Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.


Next we have : Krishna of Hinduism
1. Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki
2. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
3. He worked miracles and wonders.
4. He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind
5. In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
6. He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven
7. Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
8. He is the second person of the Trinity, and claimed to be the way to the father.
9. His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
10. Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

Next is Prometheus of Greece:
1. Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind
2. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.


So as you can see your jesus is not original in any sense of the world, indeed there may have been an insane cult leader named jesus but he truly was nothing even remotely close to what people claim him to be. In fact "The Book of Enoch" was concealed by the church due to it revealing jesus as nothing more than a man with manly needs. I do indeed believe it had him quite fond of women aswell ;)

There is also no indisputable recorded history of any of what the bible claims about him. The only proof you have that this jesus christ ever lived are two entries by the jewish historian that has been PROVEN to be completely and utterly false and added by christian leaders who thought josephus should have said something about jesus. They really did a rather sloppy job of it aswell.

Christianity would not have been what it is today if it was not for constantine and the roman elite using it to unite a steady declining empire, the warmonger used christianity as an effective tool... a tool which has been used over and over.


Now lets look at the concept of god.

People cannot fathom the universe and the earth being here without there being some kind of god, or some kind of creator. Yet they believe that this god either always existed or self created himself. Is that not rather silly? If you believe god can always exist then why not the universe? I believe that what we consider to be the universe is nothing more than a sliver of the big pictures. I believe every universe gives birth to another universe in an endless cycle. One big explosion that causes an unstoppable chain reaction. That is only my theory however, it sounds alot more realistic than any god fellow.

Now the arrogance of humanity is truly sickening. We are... in every sense of the word... animals. We are mammals, We bleed the same, We Discrete the Same, We in essence are just animals with bigger brains.

The theory that god made animals to serve us is absolutely and completely absurd. We are social animals with big brains, that is all. If anyone is familiar with the brilliant scientist Richard Dawkins and his theory on Memetics then you know what I'm getting at. Religion is basically a societal meme passed down from generation to generation to help society function properly. It is a way to prevent chaos. As napolean said "Religion is great stuff to keep the poor from murdering the rich". The poor man is most likely to not rob and kill the rich man who basically shits on him if he deludes himself into thinking all of his suffering will be rewarded in some fairy tale afterlife.

So religion is a very effective tool to keep society ruled properly. However as we continue to evolve as a species I do indeed believe that religion as we see it now will be replaced with something far more universal and scientific.


Now there was once a girl, she was 6 years old. She was a very good christian, she loves god and she loves jesus with all of her little heart. One day at the playground she was kidnapped, taken to a mans basement, restrained, raped and tortured for 8 months. The most sick kind of torture you can imagine along the lines of burning her genitals. The man decided to move and left her tied in the basement with no food or water. This girl died of dehydration. This man was eventually caught and in jail he was "Saved" he was "born again" upon being executed he told his family he will someday see them in heaven.


Now lets ask ourselves a few things. If there was a god... why did he not save this lovely little follower? Secondly how can such a despicable human being be allowed into heaven by simply converting to christianity?

How much sense does it make for a childrapist and murderer to be allowed into heaven simply because he chose to be a christian right before he died and then to have a good hearted atheist who has lived his life in love and done good things simply because he wanted to, who did not believe in god or christianity because there was not enough evidence for it and such an overwhelming amount against it? Tell me now... what kind of god, what kind of creed is this? it seems very demented to me indeed.


Also how can god be holding mankind responsible for his mistakes? lets take a closer look at this freewill theory.


Now, most christians agree that god is all knowing... that he knows the past, the present, and the future. Now surely if god knew the future then really what reason did he have in creating anything at all? He truly would have no need to create anything whatsoever.


But so this all knowing god decided to have some fun, so he created his angels... including satan. Ofcourse before he even thought of creating satan he know that satan would betray him. So he goes along and decided to create earth. Now before he even thought of creating humans... he knew exactly what would happen. He would know everything that will ever occur in the history of the human race. Now he gives us this blessing of free will.. yet he knew exactly what would come of it. How much sense does this make?


So since god knows everything he already knows who and who will not enter heaven... so what is the point of making us go through living? it is completely and utterly illogical.


Also how does anyone truly have free willl? If god knows everything I will do, everything that will happen... how do I have free will? In all honesty nobody has free will. You were never asked if you wanted to be created, you did not decide where you would be born, who your parents would be, what gender or how you would look. Tell a dying child in an african nation that he has free will and god is currently blessing him and god does everything for a reason, including his suffering. Then I'm sure you will go back to your comfortable lives of filling your face with mcdonalds and watching reality tv shows.


and if you believe in demons and stuff... how can you be so sure that jesus was not a demon who was bent on turning you away from some other god? Hell how do you know that god and satans roles arnt reversed and you and millions of others have been tricked to a life of torment? The truth is you dont.


Also if god created the earth specifically for humans then how do you explain all the other planets? What... did it take your god a few tries before he finally got ir right?

You atheists make me sick. I don't care what you believe as long as it does not hurt others or make them join. G-d is the one who started the world, and you all know that. Before the big bang, what was there? Nothing, except g-d, who started the big bang. What about all the different christian, jewish, muslim and other prophets? They have infallible proof that their g-ds exist, something you didn't think about when you tried to shock people with your gothy, atheist thread. Next time you want more attention, why don't you do something useful, like planting a tree or get a job so that your parents doesn't have to work all day long to support you. Mabye then will you make sense in your statements, or at least find a different way to get attention. Try volunteering. They'll take anyone.
wait, so ALL the major religions have INFALLIBLE PROOF of their God or gods? in addition to that being a blatant lie (since no such proof of any kinds exists) it's also logically impossible; if the Christian God were proved to be real then that would exclude the Hindu dieties, the Jewish god, the pagan Goddess, and all the rest, just like if any of those were proven true it would disprove Christianity along with the others.

try going to school...the public school system will take anybody.

I believe that satanism, witchcraft, paganism, Wicca, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, spiritualism, existentialism and many, many belief systems are fundamentally opposed to the good news about Jesus Christ, who is the truth. I reckon that Constantine's recognition of Christianity was one of the worst things that happened to it in its history, which is why I and my fellow believers go back to the Bible (all written before A.D. 120) to determine God's will, in an attempt to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

And I believe God weeps over you, and longs for you to turn to Him, accept His forgiveness, and receive the life He has for you.


If we're talking Old Testament, God's will is a set of rather arbitrary laws (Leviticus) and slaughters of ancient civilizations by the Israelites. Now, that might not be wrong for a desert tribe living thousands of years ago, but 42 children being slaughtered by bears for making fun of a prophet, the brutal murder of millions (if you go by biblical numbers), and rabid intolerance is definately a wrong in my moral system. The Old Testament essentially places every single person in Limbo for eternity ("Sheol"), but when translated, most authors retcon it to "Hell" to provide internal consistency with the NT. All in all, if Christians follow the Levitical Laws and act as dictated by the OT God, I'd not like to associate with them.

The New Testament is better, but it has an even worse change- Jesus, Prince of Peace, who loves you dearly, will have his father damn your soul to eternal punishment and torture in a lake of fire and brimstone. Other than that and the (acceptable in that time) Mysnogynic and Pro-Slavery tones in the letters, it's not _that_ bad of a religion in my eyes if you give it some room for disobeyance. (Most Christian Women, for instance, don't accurately obey the part where in, Timothy I, was it? (Possibly 9:2), where they must submit to their husband and call him Master.)

So, in conclusion, the "Actual" Christianity is definately not anything like most Christian Denominations, unless you drop almost all of the OT and revise the NT. But if you can handle that (Most Christians don't seriously read the Bible and this isn't a problem for them), it's probably one of the better religions to be.

As for me, I vary from Strong Agnostic to Strong Atheist based on my mood. I agree with HumanismManifesto, but I don't think it's right to remove Religion from people (Government, hell yes, but People, no.) just on the basis that if it comforts them. Why go out of the way to take someone's security blanket, even if you think it's wrong? Plus, even as an Atheist I like to pray during hard moments, just because it feels god to have an invisible friend who solves all problems.

Guess you could call that a vague Deism, maybe? Classifications are much too vague as you approach the already fuzzy edge of the God/No God line.

(I myself am not uncomfortable with dying, being buried, and eaten by worms as long as I get a good life in between, but I can see why others are. And if Hell or any other "Eternal Punishment" exists, I can be tortured with the fact that the Bible or other Holy Book got it wrong- he's not that Omnibenevolent after all.)

EDIT- Never got conversion, either. If God accepts deathbed conversions even if you've lived your entire life in sin, what's the point? Of course, most Christians place people like Gandhi in heaven and Hitler in hell (don't start the Hitler debate, he's just an example!), so it's not a hard and fast rule anyway.

The unholy ones, you are such an @$$hole!

The thing is that no matter what you do, you cannot prove that there is no God. Really, try it sometime. I know I did for a year and a half. Nada suerte aqui senor. You can try to rationalize it away, but in the end, all you are promoting is your opinion that God does not exist.

As you can tell from my name, I kinda figure that God does exist. I was atheist for 16 years however, and I draw experience from that.

If you can show me irrefutable proof that there is no God, send me a message. I'll be happy to hear.

-R. S.

people get so flamey here! why should anyone elses religious beliefs make you so angry?

(not you, rs, just the guys above me)

so anyway, rs, this is my problem with what you said

i fully understand that feeling that there is a god and that you can see no rational reason for there to be no god.

but the leap *I* cant make, (and please understand that this is not a request for evangelism) is from this "god who must exist" to "jesus christ died on the cross for my sins"

that there is SOME god doesnt mean that it must be THAT god. it doesnt mean that this "some" god is all knowing, all loving, all present.

i see that it makes good sense to YOU, and thats fine by me. but i dont see how that year and a half search for the proof in the non existance of god should lead to any particular religion.

The rational thinker does not try to deny God's existence nor does he try to prove its existence either. It is irrational to waste time trying to solve the unsolvable.

I prefer to see God as one's goal in life. When they reach their goal in life, God personifies the exhilaration and the euphoria of overcoming obstacles. God is victory.

Heh. These debates always amuse me.

Every single time a religious topic is mentioned, there are about a billion replies. Seems to be a topic that's quite close to people's hearts.

Anyway, I've witnessed plenty of these discussions and they always end the same way -- unsatisfactorily, no-one changes their positions; there are plenty of questions and sometimes answers and rebuttals, but it doesn't make a shred of difference!

I could make some responses to some of the things that people have been saying (coming from a Christian perspective) but I expect it'd probably be a waste of everybody's time.

Um, yeah. Anyway.

The rational thinker does not try to deny God's existence nor does he try to prove its existence either. It is irrational to waste time trying to solve the unsolvable.

I prefer to see God as one's goal in life. When they reach their goal in life, God personifies the exhilaration and the euphoria of overcoming obstacles. God is victory.

interesting thought but just not goddish enough for me

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

Probably the most truthful thing that you stated in your rant was that you "have a bit more IQ then a hamster".

Other than that, enjoy the life you have been given, you probably won't enjoy the next one?

If we're talking Old Testament, God's will is a set of rather arbitrary laws (Leviticus) and slaughters of ancient civilizations by the Israelites. Now, that might not be wrong for a desert tribe living thousands of years ago, but 42 children being slaughtered by bears for making fun of a prophet, the brutal murder of millions (if you go by biblical numbers), and rabid intolerance is definately a wrong in my moral system. The Old Testament essentially places every single person in Limbo for eternity ("Sheol"), but when translated, most authors retcon it to "Hell" to provide internal consistency with the NT. All in all, if Christians follow the Levitical Laws and act as dictated by the OT God, I'd not like to associate with them.

The New Testament is better, but it has an even worse change- Jesus, Prince of Peace, who loves you dearly, will have his father damn your soul to eternal punishment and torture in a lake of fire and brimstone. Other than that and the (acceptable in that time) Mysnogynic and Pro-Slavery tones in the letters, it's not _that_ bad of a religion in my eyes if you give it some room for disobeyance. (Most Christian Women, for instance, don't accurately obey the part where in, Timothy I, was it? (Possibly 9:2), where they must submit to their husband and call him Master.)

So, in conclusion, the "Actual" Christianity is definately not anything like most Christian Denominations, unless you drop almost all of the OT and revise the NT. But if you can handle that (Most Christians don't seriously read the Bible and this isn't a problem for them), it's probably one of the better religions to be.

As for me, I vary from Strong Agnostic to Strong Atheist based on my mood. I agree with HumanismManifesto, but I don't think it's right to remove Religion from people (Government, hell yes, but People, no.) just on the basis that if it comforts them. Why go out of the way to take someone's security blanket, even if you think it's wrong? Plus, even as an Atheist I like to pray during hard moments, just because it feels god to have an invisible friend who solves all problems.

Guess you could call that a vague Deism, maybe? Classifications are much too vague as you approach the already fuzzy edge of the God/No God line.

(I myself am not uncomfortable with dying, being buried, and eaten by worms as long as I get a good life in between, but I can see why others are. And if Hell or any other "Eternal Punishment" exists, I can be tortured with the fact that the Bible or other Holy Book got it wrong- he's not that Omnibenevolent after all.)

EDIT- Never got conversion, either. If God accepts deathbed conversions even if you've lived your entire life in sin, what's the point? Of course, most Christians place people like Gandhi in heaven and Hitler in hell (don't start the Hitler debate, he's just an example!), so it's not a hard and fast rule anyway.



I absolutly love everything you just said.


One reason religion is good: blasphemy. You can't do it without religion. And yelling out "ARGH, damn you primative-and-outmoded-concept" or "Screw you, random-fluctuations-in-the-primeval-soup!" just isn't the same.

religion may be a total lie but God certainly isnt and its wrong to confuze the two

"religion may be a total lie but God certainly isnt and its wrong to confuze the two"

Why isnt god a lie? There truly is no good reason to believe in such a concept... just as there is no good reason to believe in unicorns and the boogey man.


God spawns from mankinds need of a father figure. The need to have everything explained to them and to know that there is someone above themselves who has everything all under control.


However in reality there is no truth besides chaos.

"Other than that, enjoy the life you have been given, you probably won't enjoy the next one?"

Such style! Such Class! yes, yes you good little lamb of god! use those fear tacticts! scare the heathen into seeing the lords light! *smirks* the christian cult never fails to make me smile.

The truth is that without the threat of a hellish afterlife.. the christian religion has nothing. Indeed it would be very weak if such a concept as hell did not exist.


Fear, Torture, Lies, Manipulation, Corruption, Scandal... that is what the christian religion is built upon.

"religion may be a total lie but God certainly isnt and its wrong to confuze the two"

Why isnt god a lie? There truly is no good reason to believe in such a concept... just as there is no good reason to believe in unicorns and the boogey man.


God spawns from mankinds need of a father figure. The need to have everything explained to them and to know that there is someone above themselves who has everything all under control.


However in reality there is no truth besides chaos.

"Other than that, enjoy the life you have been given, you probably won't enjoy the next one?"

Such style! Such Class! yes, yes you good little lamb of god! use those fear tacticts! scare the heathen into seeing the lords light! *smirks* the christian cult never fails to make me smile.

The truth is that without the threat of a hellish afterlife.. the christian religion has nothing. Indeed it would be very weak if such a concept as hell did not exist.


Fear, Torture, Lies, Manipulation, Corruption, Scandal... that is what the christian religion is built upon.

Actually, true religion is based on peace, love, equality, compassion, tolerance, and a promise of everlasting life.

Everyone has choices in life. Many live out their hell right here on earth. Others seek inner peace and a oneness with mankind, and nature. You can condemn my choice all you wish, that just makes it your problem not mine.

If you would notice, the so called "threat" in my response was actually posed as a question, and not a statement of fact, because I can guarantee you two things......you don't have all the answers and neither do I.

So in the meantime, I will live with my belief, and you can do what you will with yours. In my world, love outweighs hate. Peace.

One again, you can argue against religion, but a diety isn't as easy to argue against. Simply because there's no way of proving he/she/it does or doesn't exist.


You can't prove that a god doesn't exist, just like I can't prove that a god does exist.

"religion may be a total lie but God certainly isnt and its wrong to confuze the two"

Why isnt god a lie? There truly is no good reason to believe in such a concept... just as there is no good reason to believe in unicorns and the boogey man.


God spawns from mankinds need of a father figure. The need to have everything explained to them and to know that there is someone above themselves who has everything all under control.


However in reality there is no truth besides chaos.

"Other than that, enjoy the life you have been given, you probably won't enjoy the next one?"

Such style! Such Class! yes, yes you good little lamb of god! use those fear tacticts! scare the heathen into seeing the lords light! *smirks* the christian cult never fails to make me smile.

The truth is that without the threat of a hellish afterlife.. the christian religion has nothing. Indeed it would be very weak if such a concept as hell did not exist.


Fear, Torture, Lies, Manipulation, Corruption, Scandal... that is what the christian religion is built upon.
if there is no God then how can you explain everything I pray for coming true? and I agree with you that religion is evil

Religion exists, whether you want it to or not, you have no control over it. God, however, by what ever name you call him does exist. We have no way to prove this, but anyone hear believe in aliens? The fact that we can't see or hear him anymore is probaly due to the fact he got pissed off with us cuz we screwed up everything he tried to with us. Hes propaly in some other galaxy screwing up again, even a omnipotent bieng cannot fathom the depths of the human mind and will be quite suprised what we can fuck up.

The note about prayers bieng answered, I doubt thats god. Most likely its some demon (fallen angel would be a better term) trying to buy faith.

Poopy.

if there is no God then how can you explain everything I pray for coming true? and I agree with you that religion is evil

So why doesn't God answer everyone else's prayers?

Contrary to popular belief (these days)... It is NOT better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven!!! You will never "rule" in Hell, you will suffer unimaginably!


HOW DO WE KNOW GOD EXISTS?

When the critic says there's no God he's basing this on his own insight, and unless he has insight into 100% of all knowledge he can never be sure he's right. But when the Christian says there is a God he's basing this on the fact that God has revealed Himself to the world in the person of Jesus Christ - the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15) - and His works have been recorded for us in the Bible.

But how do we know that the biblical account of Jesus is accurate? We know because Jesus' coming was predicted in the Old Testament, recorded for us in the New Testament and we can use non-Christian sources to test Christianity's claims.


THE OLD TESTAMENT: CHRIST'S COMING PREDICTED

The life of Jesus was told in advance in the Old Testament. His birth and life was prophesized long before it actually happened. Here is a brief look at what was foretold about Jesus. These are just highlights, there are hundreds of prophecies that were predicted and fulfilled by Jesus"

THE SAVIOR WOULD BE BORN IN BETHLEHEM: "O Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2)

HE WOULD BE BORN OF A VIRGIN: "Behold! The virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)

THE SAVIOR WOULD BE GOD HIMSELF: "Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given. And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace! (Isaiah 9:6)

HE WOULD BE A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS: "Surely He has borne our grief and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities. (Isaiah 53:4) "By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong. Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:10-12)

THE SAVIOR WOULD BE RESURRECTED: "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

HIS SACRIFICE WOULD BRING US PEACE WITH GOD: "The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)


NEW TESTAMENT: CHRIST'S COMING RECORDED

Then we get to the New Testament and find that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

JESUS WAS BORN IN BETHLEHEM: "Joseph [and Mary] went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem… so it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered." (Luke 2:4,6)

JESUS WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN: "Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:31,34-35)

JESUS IS GOD: "And they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)

JESUS WAS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28)

JESUS' SACRIFICE BROUGHT US PEACE WITH GOD: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

JESUS WAS RESURRECTED: "He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee." (Luke 24:6)


NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES TELL THE SAME STORY

Now let's use The Old Testament (OT) and The New Testament (NT) to examine Christianity's claims against a few non-Christian sources.

The OT prophesied a Messiah or Savior would come. The NT claims Jesus was a historical figure. Non-Christian historians such as Josephus wrote that Jesus Christ was a real person.

The OT prophesied that the Savior would be born of a virgin. The NT records that Jesus was born of a virgin. The Koran admits that Jesus was born of a virgin and the Talmud, which is a collection of Jewish commentaries, hint at Jesus unusual birth..

The OT prophesied that the Savior would perform miracles. The NT records many of Jesus' miracles. The Talmud reports that Jesus performed miracles (although they say His power came from Satan).

The OT prophesied that the Savior would be crucified and that He would be raised from the grave. The NT tells us Jesus was crucified for our sins and that He rose three days later. Letters from Roman officials tell us that Jesus was crucified, His body was missing, and that His followers believed He was raised from the grave and worshiped Him as God.


WHAT THE NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES TELL US

So, using sources outside the Bible sources that were either hostile or, at best, indifferent to Christianity we discover that Jesus Christ was a real person, He was born of a virgin, He performed miracles, He was put to death on a cross, buried, His body is missing and people thought He was God -- everything that the Old Testament predicted. Outside sources tell us what happened to Jesus. The Bible tells us not only what happened, but why it happened.


WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH JESUS?

History tells us that Jesus was crucified for claiming to be God. The ancient Jewish commentaries admit that He performed miracles. Rome admits they can't find His body. More has been written about Him than about anyone else in history. His autobiography -- the Bible -- is the world's all-time bestseller. He has changed the lives of billions. We measure history in terms of how many years it's been since He walked the earth. People react to the mere mention of His name with either joy or hatred. He is unique in all of history.

Now, we've presented some facts that provide evidence that Jesus is God, but when it comes to accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, it's more of an issue of the heart then the mind.

Charles Spurgeon put it best when he said, "every man must serve somebody: we have no choice as to that fact. Those who have no master are slaves to themselves. You will either serve Satan or Christ. Either self, or the Savior. You will find sin, self, Satan, and the world to be hard masters; but if you wear the uniform of Christ, you will find Him so meek and lowly of heart that you will find rest unto your souls."

Jesus said that He stands at the door of our hearts and that if anyone answers He will come in. It's our prayer is that you will invite the Savior into you life.


JESUS WILL COME AGAIN...

"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you with Me so that you also may be where I am." - Jesus, promising to return for His followers (John 14:2-3)

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that we, who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage one another with these words." - Paul, on our great hope that Jesus will soon return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)


JESUS WILL JUDGE THE WICKED...

"Then I saw a great White Throne and Him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from His presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were open. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - John, describing how Jesus will judge those who have not asked for His forgiveness (Revelation 20:11-12,14-15)


JESUS FORGIVES US...

"For they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, declares the Lord, For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." - Jesus, talking about the new covenant He would make when He died on the cross (Jeremiah 31:34)

"When Jesus saw their faith, He said, Friend, your sins are forgiven" - Jesus, forgiving a man of his sins (Luke 5:20)

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." - John, on how to be forgiven (1 John 1:9)


Save yourself now!

There are two paths laid out before all of us; one leads to eternal damnation apart from God, the other leads to eternal life with God. Before we die, we must all choose which path we will follow. This has written so that you might know the way which leads to eternal life.

The Bible says that God has written His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15) and that all of us have broken that law (Romans 3:23). If we take an honest look at ourselves we find this is true. There are two facts everyone knows:

1: There is a certain way we should act

2: We don't act that way

When we don't act the way we know we should we are breaking God's laws. The Bible refers to the breaking of God's law as "sin". Sin is the path that leads to damnation apart from God. God is just and so He must deal with sin. Now someone might say, "God will simply pardon our sin." But think about how angry we get when someone who commits a crime gets away with it. Why do we get angry? Because a crime went unpunished. Just as a judge must deal with a man's crime, so must God deal with our sin, and "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

But there is another path. The God is "merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in mercy and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Psalm 103:8 & Ezekiel 33:11). He has provided a way to escape damnation. Jesus Christ is that way.

God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins. If you believe in Him as your Savior you will not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16). Our sin was laid on Jesus (Isaiah 53:6) and the punishment that He took on at the cross brought us peace with God (Isaiah 53:5). And just as Jesus rose from the grave, so will we be raised after we die and be with Him in heaven forever.

Jesus said, "I am the door [to heaven]. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:9-10)

If you want to accept Jesus as your Savior you need to acknowledge that you are a sinner, turn from that sin to God and ask Jesus to be your Savior. You can do that by saying a prayer like this:


"Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know the truth is that I have sinned by my own choice, and I am the one responsible for it. I know that I have earned punishment from You, and that the fair punishment would be death. Jesus, I believe that You died in my place. Forgive me for my sin. I cannot cover or take my sin away, I am relying totally and only on You. You are the only one who can save me. I reject my sin, I turn away from it, I repent. Come into my life, take away my sin, and show me how to live my life in a way that is right and pleasing to You."

If you have prayed this from your heart, YOU ARE SAVED! You are now completely forgiven, a new creation, innocent in the eyes of God. Welcome to the family of God!


Now read the Bible and pray. Go to Bible study and attend church if you can. The end of your life will come, and it's permanent. The questions are... will you serve only yourself and/or Satan now, then serve your eternal life enveloped in unimaginable misery? Or, will you serve Jesus and your neighbors then spend your eternal life enveloped in unimaginable love? :) :) :) :)

So why doesn't God answer everyone else's prayers?

If you are Saved, and are strong in faith, and pray earnestly and always... God DOES answer prayer.

He promises to answer prayer for his Children, here are a couple of examples:

James 5:16
16* Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Matt. 7:7-11
7* ¶ “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

8* “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

9* “Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

10* “Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?

11* “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

God promises to answer our prayer, and Heb. 10:23 tells us: “for He who promised is faithful.” This we know. God promises to answer our prayers and he is faithful to keep his promises.

Sometimes God does give us what we ask. Obviously, that’s what we want when we pray. We hope that he will answer according to OUR desire. But there are times when God’s answer is “NO.” We have several examples of this in the Scriptures, we will use one to illustrate the point.

2 Cor. 12:7-10
7* Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

8* Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

9* And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

10* Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

As Jesus illustrates in Matthew chapter 7, God answeres our prayer just as any wise and loving parent. God gives us what we need, NOT what we think we need.

Sometimes God gives what we ask, but delays in Giving it. This is certainly illustrated in the Scriptures with God’s dealing with Israel.

The point is....God DOES answer the prayers of His Children.

..................

So were a relative of mine dying of a progressive and fatal illness and I prayed sincerely, would they recover?

WHY DOES GOD ALLOW EVIL?

Once, Satan was an archangel who sat with God in Heaven. Then Satan rebelled against God believing he was as good as God or better. Satan tried to convince other angels to follow him and leave God. God cast Satan out of heaven and upon the Earth which God created for us (the reason in a moment). Then God commanded that the angels, some of whom who were swayed by Satan and some who were not, must choose Satan or God because he loves his children and allows them choice in all things. But, they shall have no memory of life in heaven in order that they may choose God or Satan of their own free will without prior knowledge, so he incarnated his angels as Human Beings, and gave humans "freedom of choice". Our "spirits" or our "souls" are our angelic selves and when our short lives end, our spirit is released. But the destination of your spirit is YOUR CHOICE to make in this brief life here. FAITH is the key, it is the answer to your eternal destination.

God created a perfect world. God also created us with free will. Free will gives us the ability to either follow God or rebel against Him, as Satan had. This way when we do follow Him it is because we want to, not because we have to.

Adam was Man’s first representative and he decided to rebel against God (Genesis 3). We can trace all the world’s problems back to this event. Adam was warned yet he was decieved by Satan and he took from the Tree of Knowledge, the "Forbidden Fruit".

Jesus is referred to as the Last Adam (1Co 15:45) because He came to act as a Man’s second representative, Man's saviour. We can choose either Adam or Jesus to represent us. See this verse:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

God will soon rid the world of evil, since He is too pure to tolerate evil for eternity (Revelation 20:7-15). He doesn't do it right away because He is "gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made" (Psalm 145:8-9). He is also "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). All of Man must choose.

So God is giving everyone a chance to choose Jesus so they can avoid God’s judgment. As God said in Ezekiel 33:11: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live…”

Sadly, as people continue to do evil things children and the innocent are too often caught in the middle. But God turns something horrible into something wonderful in that these children, as well as the innocent who have accepted Jesus as their saviour who die, go to God where they will be safe forever in Heaven.

Atheists use the fact that there is evil to support their claim that there is no God. Because if He exists then why would He allow evil? But really it’s just the opposite. If there is no God then there is no higher, moral law, there is no right and wrong - we do whatever we want with no accountability. But if that’s true then how is it we can identify good and evil? The answer is that there is a God and He has placed in Man’s heart from the beginning 6,000 years ago what is right and what is wrong.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse” -- Romans 1:18-20

Our Holy Father took some definite steps to bring about the defeat of Satan and to bring in His own kingdom. First, He came to earth as a man named Jesus 2000 years ago. He as a man set up a pattern for us, showing us how man may love one another and be righteous by God's life. Although He acknowledged the authority of Satan over the earth, where Satan had been cast out of Heaven to, and was subject to his ruling outwardly, He did not succumb to Satan's temptations. He was the one-man kingdom of God. Satan had nothing in Him. Jesus did not have the satanic nature; therefore He was inwardly free from the tyranny of Satan. Yet He did not as a single man take back the earth. This job requires many of us to join Him.

For this He died to pay a ransom for all mankind in order to redeem them from God's righteous judgment of sin and resurrected to be man's life. Now the way has been reopened for man to take God in as life and express and rule for God, to become just like Him and together to defeat His enemy and bring in His kingdom.

All this happened 2000 years ago, yet most people have not received this good news. Many have not accepted Jesus into their hearts. The world is still in chaos because so many are under Satan's deception and control to resist God and live by the sinful nature.

By far, the greatest deception by the Master of Deception, Satan, was to convince much of the world over time that he doesn't even exist. But heed the word of God which you have heard, and accept Jesus as your saviour!

..............

Sounds like fiction doesn't it? Satan is a master of deception and all of man's entire history Satan has worked to deceive us all and make us believe there is nothing to believe in but our own wants and desires. Yet, you have heard of Jesus and you have heard of the path to Heaven. Take that path, you have nothing to lose and if you stay that path, you will see God revealed to your own eyes in certainty for all eternity.

Your next question will probably be...

WHY DOES GOD ALLOW EVIL?



not quite its: do you really think you're going to convince ANYONE by posting all that?

This thread is in dire need of clozapine.

Take that path, you have nothing to lose and if you stay that path, you will see God revealed to your own eyes in certainty for all eternity.


Yay, it's Pascal's Wager!

So were a relative of mine dying of a progressive and fatal illness and I prayed sincerely, would they recover?

I hope so if you do have a sick relative, but God doesn't answer prayer like it's a magical spell. He heals sometimes and He doesn't heal sometimes. It's His will that those that are healed, are, and that those that aren't, aren't. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" is a common saying that has great meaning. Prayer is very powerful and the more people that come together as one praying for the same thing/person, the more likely the prayer will be answered. God is very real and He very much loves us ALL. I believe He wants us all to be perfectly happy and have perfect lives in every way while we're here, but that's not why we're here. We are here to choose.

If you have a sick relative, and you have accepted Jesus as your saviour, and you pray for the health of a loved one, and it does not happen, it's not because you were not heard. It is because it's all part of God's plan, which we will never understand until we finally are freed from this pain filled life and meet our maker. It seems so unfair and is so tragic that many will suffer before they die. But to a person who is saved, death on Earth means life in heaven. There is no greater goal in your very brief earthly life than to seek heaven. People work so hard and stoop so low to build their treasures on Earth when they should be building their treasures in heaven. If the loved one has accepted Jesus, they will be in heaven waiting for you. I hope your prayers are answered. Read the Bible! :)

not quite its: do you really think you're going to convince ANYONE by posting all that?

Well, I hope I help at least ONE person in some way to be saved. That would be awesome :)

And as for all the rest of the witty remarks... if I were to make fun of someone because they are gay, or aethiest, or like to dress different, or whatever, you'd look down your nose at me. I'd be called names and told what a horrible person I am. Yet, you make fun of my beliefs even now and everyone else who believes in Jesus as our savior. You even KNOW that he existed and that he was foretold centuries before he arrived, yet you still make fun and jokes. Does that make you cool? Does that make you in with the in crowd? You want to give yourself over to hell to be cool?

I guess you've made your choice, for now. But it's never too late to change your choice before you die. Question is, will you die today? Tomorrow? In 100 years? You should carefully consider what you have heard and what you have read. Your eternal life depends on it.

I hope so if you do have a sick relative, but God doesn't answer prayer like it's a magical spell. He heals sometimes and He doesn't heal sometimes. It's His will that those that are healed, are, and that those that aren't, aren't. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" is a common saying that has great meaning. Prayer is very powerful and the more people that come together as one praying for the same thing/person, the more likely the prayer will be answered. God is very real and He very much loves us ALL. I believe He wants us all to be perfectly happy and have perfect lives in every way while we're here, but that's not why we're here. We are here to choose.

If you have a sick relative, and you have accepted Jesus as your saviour, and you pray for the health of a loved one, and it does not happen, it's not because you were not heard. It is because it's all part of God's plan, which we will never understand until we finally are freed from this pain filled life and meet our maker. It seems so unfair and is so tragic that many will suffer before they die. But to a person who is saved, death on Earth means life in heaven. There is no greater goal in your very brief earthly life than to seek heaven. People work so hard and stoop so low to build their treasures on Earth when they should be building their treasures in heaven. If the loved one has accepted Jesus, they will be in heaven waiting for you. I hope your prayers are answered. Read the Bible! :)

ahhh, so praying doesn't do anything, and whether or not He hears you He is going to do what He thinks is best. God will let people suffer and die and we should all still like Him, even though He has the power to prevent it and is chosing not to. no matter how good your love one was, if they didn't accept Jesus then our wonderful God will send them straight to hell to suffer for eternity.

the reason we know He exists is that He proves it by answering prayers whenever He feels like it, which isn't very often, and He answers with a big NO most of the time...that sure does prove He's real, though! sometimes you pray and you get what you want, and sometimes you pray and don't, and either way that must mean God is real!

just a question: if death for somebody who is saved means heaven forever, and that is so much better than life on Earth, then why doesn't one of you offer to kill all the rest? i mean, i know you can't kill yourself because that is a sin, so have one person offer to sacrifice themself by being a murderer and then the rest can go to heaven. one person has to burn for being a murderer, but in exchange the rest of you all get paradise...seems like a good Christian trade to me. and why don't you kill babies right after they are baptized or whatever, before they have a chance to sin? then they are guaranteed to go to Jesus, instead of risking their souls by possibly growing up and rejecting Jesus? sure, the person killing the babies would go to hell, but what loving parent wouldn't be willing to go to hell if it meant that they ensured their kids of heaven?

seriously, do you understand how crazy you sound?

Ye have little faith, Bottle.

ahhh, so praying doesn't do anything, and whether or not He hears you He is going to do what He thinks is best. God will let people suffer and die and we should all still like Him, even though He has the power to prevent it and is chosing not to. no matter how good your love one was, if they didn't accept Jesus then our wonderful God will send them straight to hell to suffer for eternity.

the reason we know He exists is that He proves it by answering prayers whenever He feels like it, which isn't very often, and He answers with a big NO most of the time...that sure does prove He's real, though! sometimes you pray and you get what you want, and sometimes you pray and don't, and either way that must mean God is real!

just a question: if death for somebody who is saved means heaven forever, and that is so much better than life on Earth, then why doesn't one of you offer to kill all the rest? i mean, i know you can't kill yourself because that is a sin, so have one person offer to sacrifice themself by being a murderer and then the rest can go to heaven. one person has to burn for being a murderer, but in exchange the rest of you all get paradise...seems like a good Christian trade to me. and why don't you kill babies right after they are baptized or whatever, before they have a chance to sin? then they are guaranteed to go to Jesus, instead of risking their souls by possibly growing up and rejecting Jesus? sure, the person killing the babies would go to hell, but what loving parent wouldn't be willing to go to hell if it meant that they ensured their kids of heaven?

seriously, do you understand how crazy you sound?

Seriously, do you understand how thoroughly deceived and unlearned you are? Your hypotheticals and disbelief is ALL answered in the Bible. Read it. If you choose not to make a choice, you've still made your choice.

Jesus walked the earth. He is real. There's no denying that. If you think I sound crazy, then I can only say that's your choice to make. If you think your life is better feeling the way you do, that's your choice too. Live it the way you want to, believing what you want. I'll believe what I want and hopefully, I'll help someone out there to be saved. If not you, well... darn, I tried.

Ye have little faith, Bottle.

faith? i have faith. i have faith that Africa exists, even though i have never been there or flown over it. i have faith that Stephen Hawking isn't just trying to mess with the rest of humanity by making up all that stuff he works on that nobody else can fully understand. i have faith that space is a vaccuum even though i've never (yet) gotten to check for myself. i have faith that all the evidence for the reality of these things isn't just fabricated by some tiny invisible tigers who surround us at all times.

but believing that an invisible sky friend is watching me and ignoring my wishes and therefore should be worshiped beyond everything else in my life? forcing my "logic" to wrap around the justification that He must exist because He said so in His very own book (which just so happened to be compiled by a secular dictator for the purposes of keeping the masses in line) and that book makes predictions that it later says really happened? making my mind accept that He really is all-powerful and all-good but still somehow lets people suffer and die because He has some plan that for some reason goes against the very rules He sends people to Hell for breaking?

there are limitations to what a sane mind can accept, i'm afraid.

If you are Saved, and are strong in faith, and pray earnestly and always... God DOES answer prayer.

He promises to answer prayer for his Children, here are a couple of examples:

James 5:16
16* Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Matt. 7:7-11
7* ¶ “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

8* “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

9* “Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

10* “Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?

11* “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

God promises to answer our prayer, and Heb. 10:23 tells us: “for He who promised is faithful.” This we know. God promises to answer our prayers and he is faithful to keep his promises.

Sometimes God does give us what we ask. Obviously, that’s what we want when we pray. We hope that he will answer according to OUR desire. But there are times when God’s answer is “NO.” We have several examples of this in the Scriptures, we will use one to illustrate the point.

2 Cor. 12:7-10
7* Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

8* Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

9* And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

10* Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

As Jesus illustrates in Matthew chapter 7, God answeres our prayer just as any wise and loving parent. God gives us what we need, NOT what we think we need.

Sometimes God gives what we ask, but delays in Giving it. This is certainly illustrated in the Scriptures with God’s dealing with Israel.

The point is....God DOES answer the prayers of His Children.

..................

wait, that doesn't make any sense. you said that if somebody prays to God and doesn't get what they prayed for (like the health of a loved one) then that means it's still okay because God had a plan. so since God has a plan, and he doesn't change it based on prayers he receives, then why pray at all? if you pray for something and get it then that must mean it was part of His plan all the time, and He would have done that whether you prayed or not.

in fact, since He has a plan that won't change no matter what we humans do, there really is no point in worshiping Him at all...the plan must already be set, because He is all-knowing and will have already known what we were going to do, and He will take the same actions no matter what we chose at this point. since His course is already set we are truly free to do whatever we please, and worshiping Him won't change anything so we might as well save our energy for things like civic improvement and educating our children.

or, alternatively, if human actions have the power to de-rail God's plan, then why are we worshipping Him at all? we're obviously more powerful than He is, and we can manipulate His powers for our own ends!

*evil chuckle*

faith? i have faith. i have faith that Africa exists, even though i have never been there or flown over it. i have faith that Stephen Hawking isn't just trying to mess with the rest of humanity by making up all that stuff he works on that nobody else can fully understand. i have faith that space is a vaccuum even though i've never (yet) gotten to check for myself. i have faith that all the evidence for the reality of these things isn't just fabricated by some tiny invisible tigers who surround us at all times.

but believing that an invisible sky friend is watching me and ignoring my wishes and therefore should be worshiped beyond everything else in my life? forcing my "logic" to wrap around the justification that He must exist because He said so in His very own book (which just so happened to be compiled by a secular dictator for the purposes of keeping the masses in line) and that book makes predictions that it later says really happened? making my mind accept that He really is all-powerful and all-good but still somehow lets people suffer and die because He has some plan that for some reason goes against the very rules He sends people to Hell for breaking?

there are limitations to what a sane mind can accept, i'm afraid.

What you're saying is that you don't believe it unless you see it with your own eyes (more or less).

Would you believe if you saw Jesus with your own eyes and saw what he did then?

The many different people who wrote the New Testament did see it. They weren't all from that area either. Nor are they all "Christian". They recorded what they WITNESSED for you. Much like a witness who testifies in court what they saw during a crime or at an accident scene. You weren't there at the crime or the accident but you take what the witness say they saw as basis of fact. How come you can't believe what so many recorded of what they witnessed when it comes to Jesus? The other major "religions" of that era recorded what they saw about Jesus too. How could one man have such an awesome effect on the whole world for 2000 years if he were not the truth?

What you're saying is that you don't believe it unless you see it with your own eyes (more or less).

Would you believe if you saw Jesus with your own eyes and saw what he did then?

The many different people who wrote the New Testament did see it. They weren't all from that area either. Nor are they all "Christian". They recorded what they WITNESSED for you. Much like a witness who testifies in court what they saw during a crime or at an accident scene. You weren't there at the crime or the accident but you take what the witness say they saw as basis of fact. How come you can't believe what so many recorded of what they witnessed when it comes to Jesus? The other major "religions" of that era recorded what they saw about Jesus too. How could one man have such an awesome effect on the whole world for 2000 years if he were not the truth?

um, no, i am saying that i cannot KNOW something exists if i have never seen/smelt/touched/heard it. i must take some things on "faith" even though i am pretty near sure they are real, i simply try to minimize how much faith it takes by only believing in things for which there is strong evidence. i also take ALL the evidence into account; there are direct witness acounts of sailing to the edge of the Earth, but i don't accept them as fact just because somebody wrote them down a long time ago.

the records of Jesus' life are incomplete, and the records of his divinity limited to the holy texts of a religion that has everything to gain from asserting such claims. if we go by purely the volume of historical documentation, i have more reason to be Muslim than Christian, more reason to believe in Poseidon than Jesus...hell, the Christians don't even have the original text they claim was written by God himself, only copies that have been editted and re-editted; the Muslims have the actual palm fronds on which their original text was written. thus i don't see why you would expect me to adopt the Jesus myths but ignore the myths of other dieties who are far better documented and historically supported.

and as to your question of if i would believe in Jesus if i saw him, the answer must be no. if i saw a being capable of performing stupendous magic tricks there would be no reason for me to assume it was God rather than the devil, no way for me to know if it was indeed my Creator or merely a trick of some other powerful being. there are many things beyond human comprehension, and simply being more powerful than a human doesn't earn the title of God. if i saw Jesus i would, obviously, believe that he existed in some form, but i would not simply assume he was the son of my creator or my creator made flesh; there would be no evidence for that.

The many different people who wrote the New Testament did see it. They weren't all from that area either. Nor are they all "Christian". They recorded what they WITNESSED for you.

False. Luke didn't claim to have observed any of the events he wrote about.

Well, I hope I help at least ONE person in some way to be saved. That would be awesome :)

And as for all the rest of the witty remarks... if I were to make fun of someone because they are gay, or aethiest, or like to dress different, or whatever, you'd look down your nose at me. I'd be called names and told what a horrible person I am. Yet, you make fun of my beliefs even now and everyone else who believes in Jesus as our savior. You even KNOW that he existed and that he was foretold centuries before he arrived, yet you still make fun and jokes. Does that make you cool? Does that make you in with the in crowd? You want to give yourself over to hell to be cool?

I guess you've made your choice, for now. But it's never too late to change your choice before you die. Question is, will you die today? Tomorrow? In 100 years? You should carefully consider what you have heard and what you have read. Your eternal life depends on it.

well i didnt think my comment was particularly witty, clever or funny and i wasnt trying to make fun of your faith. i just think you're wasting trying to convince other people to convert.

as for the other stuff, yes jesus probably existed, so what if his existence was predicted, someone like that was bound to come along eventually and if god will really send me to hell for not beleiving in him at the moment of my death despite giving me no indication that he exists, then well, I dont think he's very worthy of any kind of worship.

um, no, i am saying that i cannot KNOW something exists if i have never seen/smelt/touched/heard it. i must take some things on "faith" even though i am pretty near sure they are real, i simply try to minimize how much faith it takes by only believing in things for which there is strong evidence.

the records of Jesus' life are incomplete, and the records of his divinity limited to the holy texts of a religion that has everything to gain from asserting such claims. if we go by purely the volume of historical documentation, i have more reason to be Muslim than Christian, more reason to believe in Poseidon than Jesus...hell, the Christians don't even have the original text they claim was written by God himself, only copies that have been editted and re-editted; the Muslims have the actual palm fronds on which their original text was written. thus i don't see why you would expect me to adopt the Jesus myths but ignore the myths of other dieties who are far better documented and historically supported.

Hello? Ever hear of the Dead Sea scrolls?

Yes, we all know, the record of Jesus by his disciples begins when he's in his 30's. There's virtually no record after his birth until then. And your ASSERTION what is written is done so for some type of personal gain by the various authors is like the notion that the cure for cancer already exists but the drug companies won't make it because they'd lose money... it's absurd conjecture. Jesus was tangible and in their presence when they recorded their "witness statements". The Bible specifically states that anyone who "edits" the witness testimony would surely burn in hell. Given the era that the books were translated and written for all, when God fearing men truly feared God as deeply as you or I would fear jumping from an airplane cruising at 10,000 feet without a parachute, the conjecture that it's written they way they wanted it written for their own "gain" is a fruitless stab at explaining away the "Jesus myth".

Does your intellectual reasoning of the reason for the contents of the Bible mean it must all be untrue? No, it does not. There's more reason to know that it is an accurate record based on the fear factor alone than to believe someone edited the contents for some type of mind-control personal gain. Sure, the court witnesses might get the color of a shirt wrong, or the model of a vehicle wrong, but what they witnessed still happened.

Hello? Ever hear of the Dead Sea scrolls?

Yes, we all know, the record of Jesus by his disciples begins when he's in his 30's. There's virtually no record after his birth until then. And your ASSERTION what is written is done so for some type of personal gain by the various authors is like the notion that the cure for cancer already exists but the drug companies won't make it because they'd lose money... it's absurd conjecture. Jesus was tangible and in their presence when they recorded their "witness statements". The Bible specifically states that anyone who "edits" the witness testimony would surely burn in hell. Given the era that the books were translated and written for all, when God fearing men truly feared God as deeply as you or I would fear jumping from an airplane cruising at 10,000 feet without a parachute, the conjecture that it's written they way they wanted it written for their own "gain" is a fruitless stab at explaining away the "Jesus myth".

Does your intellectual reasoning of the reason for the contents of the Bible mean it must all be untrue? No, it does not. There's more reason to know that it is an accurate record based on the fear factor alone than to believe someone edited the contents for some type of mind-control personal gain. Sure, the court witnesses might get the color of a shirt wrong, or the model of a vehicle wrong, but what they witnessed still happened.

yes yes, i am aware of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the fact that they directly contradict much of entrenched Christian doctrine. just further proof that the testimony in the Bible is not necessarily reliable, and should not be the sole justification for belief in supernatural forces.

i don't see why you think there is more reason to believe in the Bible because the Church and various rulers had motive to manipulate it, especially since historical documentation supports the fact that the Catholic hierarchy as well as secular politicians and rulers directly changed what the Bible says. given that eye witness testimony is considered unreliable even in modern court cases about petty theft, i don't see why you are so eager to accept it at face value on such an important subject as the existence of God.

also, even if i were to give the Bible the benefit of the doubt, you still haven't told me why i should choose to listen to the Bible over the greater volumes of material from other religions. if i give the Bible, as corrupted by history as it is, the benefit of the doubt, then how much more solid must be my belief in the Qu'ran, which can still be read in its original form? why must i accept the witness testimony about Jesus but not of Buddha, Vishnu, or Athena? why should the myths of one culture be considered more credible, even though others have far more clearly documented ones?

Seriously, do you understand how thoroughly deceived and unlearned you are? Your hypotheticals and disbelief is ALL answered in the Bible. Read it. If you choose not to make a choice, you've still made your choice.

Jesus walked the earth. He is real. There's no denying that. If you think I sound crazy, then I can only say that's your choice to make. If you think your life is better feeling the way you do, that's your choice too. Live it the way you want to, believing what you want. I'll believe what I want and hopefully, I'll help someone out there to be saved. If not you, well... darn, I tried.

wait, i sound deceived because i won't take it on faith that an all-powerful man who lives in the sky murdered his son so the rest of us could be forgiven for sins like murder? i sound unlearned because i post legitimate questions that, so far, nobody has been able to answer? hmm, where exactly are you going to school?

i have a Bible, and i have read it. i also have a copy of the Bahgavad Gita, the Illiad, and the Wizard of Oz. just because a book tells me a story isn't enough reason to believe it is pure fact. why exactly do you think i haven't made a choice? i have most certainly chosen to view the Bible the same way i view all other myths and legends. and, for the record, the majority of the people on Earth deny Jesus is real, so it's a bit silly to stamp your foot and claim "there is no denying that."

unlike you, i don't believe what i believe because it feels good, and i don't try to use the pleasure principle to lead me to "salvation." i believe what i do because it is the only conclusion i see as supported by logic and thorough reasoning. it is probably much, much easier to believe in some supernatural parent who will watch out for me and make sure everything is okay. i don't think it is easier or more pleasurable to be atheist or agnostic, simply that it is healthier and more honest.

anyone who's interested -- you might want to check out 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel. It's a very good book, looking at all the evidence for Christ and stuff. He also wrote a book called 'The Case for Faith' which I haven't read but have heard that it's good too.

Just thought I'd mention it, as the former (and probably second book) definitely deals with questions that have been raised :)

So were a relative of mine dying of a progressive and fatal illness and I prayed sincerely, would they recover?

i think it must all be a matter of praying for the right thing

remember the king in "the little prince"? he would command the sun to rise each morning and it obeyed. he refused to issue commands that might not be obeyed

in my experience, no one's prayers get answered no matter how sincere a believer they are.

the cruelty of suggesting to a grieving parent that their child would have been saved if only they had had more faith, or that it was gods will to kill their child, or that god is punishing them by killing the innocent, or that god only gives us the burdens we can bear (so that if only they were weaker their child would have lived) boggles my mind.

the cruelty of suggesting to a grieving parent that their child would have been saved if only they had had more faith, or that it was gods will to kill their child, or that god is punishing them by killing the innocent, or that god only gives us the burdens we can bear (so that if only they were weaker their child would have lived) boggles my mind.

it's blasphemous, too, to suggest that a human could change God's plan simply by asking for a favor. God's plan is going to be carried out, and "thy will be done," right? so praying is an insult to God, a questioning of the plan we are all supposed to accept at face value. if God wants to take your child using a painful disease then that's his plan and you have no right to question. simply accept it. hell, you are wrong to try to cure your child, since God gave the child that disease for a reason. and since heaven is a great place and Earth is just an imperfect world of sin, it is cruel to bind your child to this world when God is trying to call that child home to him.

Bottle raises interesting questions.
If God really exists, does he deserve our respect and our worship?
In the end, what has God done for us?

or perhaps the question is doest god WANT our worhip?

2000 years is a long time to go without any communication (not counting the mormons and other unrecognized prophets)

id have to guess he's gotten tired of the whole thing and went to play somewhere else

I have read Lee Strobels book "The case for christ" and it is really quite funny. Indeed it is full of rhetoric and plain out false statements.


Quite amusing how the christians here ignored my first post. How do you explain christ being almost identicial to buddha, horus, krishna, ect, ect. ? Could it be that the crazy christian cult twisted and warped pagan beliefs in order to mass market christianity to the mostly pagan believing romans?

Strobels arguments are really quite ludacris especially his argument that due to christianitys popularity and long life span that it must be the word of god. However they ignore such facts as hinduism remaining insanely popular for such a great amount of time. In fact some hindu scriptures date back even older that the oldest of the old testament scriptures.


Also simply the fact that people believe in christianity is no good reason whatsoever to conclude that its real or ample evidence at all. I mean there are people in mental homes right now who think they are ghengis kahn, George Washington, hell... some think they are god himself. They truly believe this but does that make it anymore real?


Keep in mind that the New testament bible was written by some 30 prophets over a span of atleast 1000 years. Keep in mind that being a "prophet" was really quite a popular thing to do. In fact they had schools open to teach men how to be so called prophets. There were thousands of prophets all over the world. In fact kings used to call hundreds of prophets to guide them along in times of crisis.


So being a prophet was truly a rather common practice. The church picked and chose what they wanted to put in the bible. So out of say 4000 prophets they only chose maybe 30 to use for the bible and this was over a very long period of time.


About the guy who posted about "why god allows evil" and such. Yes, indeed you blame it on satan but you fail to realize... If god knows everything, and god created satan.... did not god know what satan would become before he even created him? Yet he chose to create him anyway.


Also christians fail to realize that religions such a buddhism and Islam have alot more credibility than xtianity. Yet they expect us to buy into theirs? Why are we to believe them over all the others?


Also why would god reveal himself in one part of the world, in one culture... yet ignore the fact that there is so many places and so many cultures of people believing so many different things. How could he honestly expect everyone in the world to be saved if he only revealed himself in such a small portion of the world? Yet he expects us all to be "saved" or we are cursed to burn in hell? How fair is that? How logical is that?



Also answer me this... how is religion not a matter of culture? If you grew up in the middle east you would in all likelyhood be a die hard muslim. If you grew up in india you would most likely be a hindu. So how is religion nothing more than a culturual meme? How can you claim superiority?


I respect your belief in an invisible man in the sky who watches every little thing you do however please try to stop shoving that down peoples throats. It just makes educated people pitty you.

Meat, lets debate here, not give out verbal chick tracks :p


The fact is, the bible outright contradicts itself many times. Example: did God create animals first, or man?


As for the whole prayer issue, I've known several people who remained unconvinced about christianity and will most likily burn in hell with me, despite how hard their christian friends/family/whatever prays for them.


I guess god wants them to burn, eh?

Well this is a stupid thread!

Well this is a stupid thread!

then it makes sense for you to be here, doesn't it?

This post is flamebaiting. Nothing more nothing less.

then it makes sense for you to be here, doesn't it?

Let's try and be a bit more accommodating, hmm?


http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DrChaotica.jpg (http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/taunt1.mp3)
Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator

OK, well being as I have nothing else to do, I've decided I'll rise up to this flamebaiting and put my view in. Now I'm not going to tell you what my background is, because really it's none of your business, but I will tell you I am in a better position to interpret certain religious texts (namely the bible) than most of the wackos who go about calling themselves Christians (and giving the vast majority of Christians a bad name that they really don't deserve).

The Bible is a very nice piece of literature, and yes it does contradict itself, but that as such does not necessarily make it wrong. It is also a highly dangerous piece of literature, it can and indeed has been used to justify all kinds of barbaric acts over the centuries. I am sure that if I wanted to prove that it was within my God given right to ride about in a pickup truck shooting children who weren't going to school, I could put forward a very good case based entirely off passages from the good book.

However this does not make the bible an 'evil' piece of literature as many small minded people like to claim it is. You could use 'The Lord of the Rings' to put forward a similar case, but then everyone would laugh at you. The Bible and indeed the Quoran (sp?) should be kept for interpretation solely in the hands of responsible people. What the "islamic martyrs" do in the middle east and elsewhere should not be interpreted as the view of the religion as a whole, I'm sure you've all heard that, so why then do people persist in insisting that the views of a few crazed clerics who think we should burn all the homosexuals reflects Christianity as a whole?

Now we shall move onto God and prayer and such. Someone said something about people not being converted if you pray for them. How very clever of you to notice. People who believe that if they pray hard enough, everything will turn out the way they want it to are fools in the extreme and I'm sure that if God could actually speak to them, would tell them to get off their fat *&*%# and do some real work. If they really want to convert people, praying for them to convert will achieve nothing, threatening them with hell and damnation will do nothing. If they really want to convince people religion is good for them, they should prove it. In the end people have free will, and whether or not God, some prayer group or indeed anyone else wants them to do something, it is in the end their own decision to do it. I do not believe there is any (sensible) religion that tells you that God is like your mother, there to do all the things that you are too incompetent/lazy to do for yourself, yet still there are a large number of people who believe that.

As for the existence of God. Well thats a mystery isn't it? You either believe or you don't and it's entirely up to you. I have chosen to believe but that is entirely my own decision, based on long contemplation of (to sound particularly cliche) the mysteries of the Universe. But let noone dare to call me uneducated or stupid because of these beliefs, without being specific, I have a very strong background in science, which I do not believe is in any way shape or form the enemy of religion as many people seem to view it as. People here need to grow up, stop flaming each other and get along. I couldn't care less if people chose to be non-religious, what I do resent however is people deciding it's a good idea to go about blasting religion as a whole. This is small minded bigotry, just as great if not more so than that of which they like to accuse the religious communities of the world.

OK, well being as I have nothing else to do, I've decided I'll rise up to this flamebaiting and put my view in. Now I'm not going to tell you what my background is, because really it's none of your business, but I will tell you I am in a better position to interpret certain religious texts (namely the bible) than most of the wackos who go about calling themselves Christians (and giving the vast majority of Christians a bad name that they really don't deserve).

The Bible is a very nice piece of literature, and yes it does contradict itself, but that as such does not necessarily make it wrong. It is also a highly dangerous piece of literature, it can and indeed has been used to justify all kinds of barbaric acts over the centuries. I am sure that if I wanted to prove that it was within my God given right to ride about in a pickup truck shooting children who weren't going to school, I could put forward a very good case based entirely off passages from the good book.

However this does not make the bible an 'evil' piece of literature as many small minded people like to claim it is. You could use 'The Lord of the Rings' to put forward a similar case, but then everyone would laugh at you. The Bible and indeed the Quoran (sp?) should be kept for interpretation solely in the hands of responsible people. What the "islamic martyrs" do in the middle east and elsewhere should not be interpreted as the view of the religion as a whole, I'm sure you've all heard that, so why then do people persist in insisting that the views of a few crazed clerics who think we should burn all the homosexuals reflects Christianity as a whole?

Now we shall move onto God and prayer and such. Someone said something about people not being converted if you pray for them. How very clever of you to notice. People who believe that if they pray hard enough, everything will turn out the way they want it to are fools in the extreme and I'm sure that if God could actually speak to them, would tell them to get off their fat *&*%# and do some real work. If they really want to convert people, praying for them to convert will achieve nothing, threatening them with hell and damnation will do nothing. If they really want to convince people religion is good for them, they should prove it. In the end people have free will, and whether or not God, some prayer group or indeed anyone else wants them to do something, it is in the end their own decision to do it. I do not believe there is any (sensible) religion that tells you that God is like your mother, there to do all the things that you are too incompetent/lazy to do for yourself, yet still there are a large number of people who believe that.

As for the existence of God. Well thats a mystery isn't it? You either believe or you don't and it's entirely up to you. I have chosen to believe but that is entirely my own decision, based on long contemplation of (to sound particularly cliche) the mysteries of the Universe. But let noone dare to call me uneducated or stupid because of these beliefs, without being specific, I have a very strong background in science, which I do not believe is in any way shape or form the enemy of religion as many people seem to view it as. People here need to grow up, stop flaming each other and get along. I couldn't care less if people chose to be non-religious, what I do resent however is people deciding it's a good idea to go about blasting religion as a whole. This is small minded bigotry, just as great if not more so than that of which they like to accuse the religious communities of the world.



**applaudes**

Religion exists, whether you want it to or not, you have no control over it. God, however, by what ever name you call him does exist. We have no way to prove this, but anyone hear believe in aliens? The fact that we can't see or hear him anymore is probaly due to the fact he got pissed off with us cuz we screwed up everything he tried to with us. Hes propaly in some other galaxy screwing up again, even a omnipotent bieng cannot fathom the depths of the human mind and will be quite suprised what we can fuck up.

The note about prayers bieng answered, I doubt thats god. Most likely its some demon (fallen angel would be a better term) trying to buy faith.

Poopy.
whatever it is there is undeniable higher powers out there in another dimension and its the height of ignorant arrogance to assume that we're the only entitys in existence

So why doesn't God answer everyone else's prayers?
because they have doubt and refuse to shut them off and believe unconditionally

Contrary to popular belief (these days)... It is NOT better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven!!! You will never "rule" in Hell, you will suffer unimaginably!


HOW DO WE KNOW GOD EXISTS?

When the critic says there's no God he's basing this on his own insight, and unless he has insight into 100% of all knowledge he can never be sure he's right. But when the Christian says there is a God he's basing this on the fact that God has revealed Himself to the world in the person of Jesus Christ - the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15) - and His works have been recorded for us in the Bible.

But how do we know that the biblical account of Jesus is accurate? We know because Jesus' coming was predicted in the Old Testament, recorded for us in the New Testament and we can use non-Christian sources to test Christianity's claims.


THE OLD TESTAMENT: CHRIST'S COMING PREDICTED

The life of Jesus was told in advance in the Old Testament. His birth and life was prophesized long before it actually happened. Here is a brief look at what was foretold about Jesus. These are just highlights, there are hundreds of prophecies that were predicted and fulfilled by Jesus"

THE SAVIOR WOULD BE BORN IN BETHLEHEM: "O Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2)

HE WOULD BE BORN OF A VIRGIN: "Behold! The virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)

THE SAVIOR WOULD BE GOD HIMSELF: "Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given. And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace! (Isaiah 9:6)

HE WOULD BE A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS: "Surely He has borne our grief and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities. (Isaiah 53:4) "By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong. Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:10-12)

THE SAVIOR WOULD BE RESURRECTED: "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

HIS SACRIFICE WOULD BRING US PEACE WITH GOD: "The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)


NEW TESTAMENT: CHRIST'S COMING RECORDED

Then we get to the New Testament and find that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

JESUS WAS BORN IN BETHLEHEM: "Joseph [and Mary] went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem… so it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered." (Luke 2:4,6)

JESUS WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN: "Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:31,34-35)

JESUS IS GOD: "And they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)

JESUS WAS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28)

JESUS' SACRIFICE BROUGHT US PEACE WITH GOD: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

JESUS WAS RESURRECTED: "He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee." (Luke 24:6)


NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES TELL THE SAME STORY

Now let's use The Old Testament (OT) and The New Testament (NT) to examine Christianity's claims against a few non-Christian sources.

The OT prophesied a Messiah or Savior would come. The NT claims Jesus was a historical figure. Non-Christian historians such as Josephus wrote that Jesus Christ was a real person.

The OT prophesied that the Savior would be born of a virgin. The NT records that Jesus was born of a virgin. The Koran admits that Jesus was born of a virgin and the Talmud, which is a collection of Jewish commentaries, hint at Jesus unusual birth..

The OT prophesied that the Savior would perform miracles. The NT records many of Jesus' miracles. The Talmud reports that Jesus performed miracles (although they say His power came from Satan).

The OT prophesied that the Savior would be crucified and that He would be raised from the grave. The NT tells us Jesus was crucified for our sins and that He rose three days later. Letters from Roman officials tell us that Jesus was crucified, His body was missing, and that His followers believed He was raised from the grave and worshiped Him as God.


WHAT THE NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES TELL US

So, using sources outside the Bible sources that were either hostile or, at best, indifferent to Christianity we discover that Jesus Christ was a real person, He was born of a virgin, He performed miracles, He was put to death on a cross, buried, His body is missing and people thought He was God -- everything that the Old Testament predicted. Outside sources tell us what happened to Jesus. The Bible tells us not only what happened, but why it happened.


WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH JESUS?

History tells us that Jesus was crucified for claiming to be God. The ancient Jewish commentaries admit that He performed miracles. Rome admits they can't find His body. More has been written about Him than about anyone else in history. His autobiography -- the Bible -- is the world's all-time bestseller. He has changed the lives of billions. We measure history in terms of how many years it's been since He walked the earth. People react to the mere mention of His name with either joy or hatred. He is unique in all of history.

Now, we've presented some facts that provide evidence that Jesus is God, but when it comes to accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, it's more of an issue of the heart then the mind.

Charles Spurgeon put it best when he said, "every man must serve somebody: we have no choice as to that fact. Those who have no master are slaves to themselves. You will either serve Satan or Christ. Either self, or the Savior. You will find sin, self, Satan, and the world to be hard masters; but if you wear the uniform of Christ, you will find Him so meek and lowly of heart that you will find rest unto your souls."

Jesus said that He stands at the door of our hearts and that if anyone answers He will come in. It's our prayer is that you will invite the Savior into you life.


JESUS WILL COME AGAIN...

"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you with Me so that you also may be where I am." - Jesus, promising to return for His followers (John 14:2-3)

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that we, who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage one another with these words." - Paul, on our great hope that Jesus will soon return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)


JESUS WILL JUDGE THE WICKED...

"Then I saw a great White Throne and Him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from His presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were open. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - John, describing how Jesus will judge those who have not asked for His forgiveness (Revelation 20:11-12,14-15)


JESUS FORGIVES US...

"For they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, declares the Lord, For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." - Jesus, talking about the new covenant He would make when He died on the cross (Jeremiah 31:34)

"When Jesus saw their faith, He said, Friend, your sins are forgiven" - Jesus, forgiving a man of his sins (Luke 5:20)

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." - John, on how to be forgiven (1 John 1:9)


Save yourself now!

There are two paths laid out before all of us; one leads to eternal damnation apart from God, the other leads to eternal life with God. Before we die, we must all choose which path we will follow. This has written so that you might know the way which leads to eternal life.

The Bible says that God has written His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15) and that all of us have broken that law (Romans 3:23). If we take an honest look at ourselves we find this is true. There are two facts everyone knows:

1: There is a certain way we should act

2: We don't act that way

When we don't act the way we know we should we are breaking God's laws. The Bible refers to the breaking of God's law as "sin". Sin is the path that leads to damnation apart from God. God is just and so He must deal with sin. Now someone might say, "God will simply pardon our sin." But think about how angry we get when someone who commits a crime gets away with it. Why do we get angry? Because a crime went unpunished. Just as a judge must deal with a man's crime, so must God deal with our sin, and "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

But there is another path. The God is "merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in mercy and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Psalm 103:8 & Ezekiel 33:11). He has provided a way to escape damnation. Jesus Christ is that way.

God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins. If you believe in Him as your Savior you will not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16). Our sin was laid on Jesus (Isaiah 53:6) and the punishment that He took on at the cross brought us peace with God (Isaiah 53:5). And just as Jesus rose from the grave, so will we be raised after we die and be with Him in heaven forever.

Jesus said, "I am the door [to heaven]. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:9-10)

If you want to accept Jesus as your Savior you need to acknowledge that you are a sinner, turn from that sin to God and ask Jesus to be your Savior. You can do that by saying a prayer like this:


"Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know the truth is that I have sinned by my own choice, and I am the one responsible for it. I know that I have earned punishment from You, and that the fair punishment would be death. Jesus, I believe that You died in my place. Forgive me for my sin. I cannot cover or take my sin away, I am relying totally and only on You. You are the only one who can save me. I reject my sin, I turn away from it, I repent. Come into my life, take away my sin, and show me how to live my life in a way that is right and pleasing to You."

If you have prayed this from your heart, YOU ARE SAVED! You are now completely forgiven, a new creation, innocent in the eyes of God. Welcome to the family of God!


Now read the Bible and pray. Go to Bible study and attend church if you can. The end of your life will come, and it's permanent. The questions are... will you serve only yourself and/or Satan now, then serve your eternal life enveloped in unimaginable misery? Or, will you serve Jesus and your neighbors then spend your eternal life enveloped in unimaginable love? :) :) :) :)

this is all mindless fearmongering--God isnt anything like these Christian fanatics who do nothing but turn people away from him

I disagree. God isn't your fairly godmother. I am a prayerful man but I have no expectation of my prayers all being answered. God isn't Santa delivering presents to the children who've been "nice". How can you grow as a person if your parents look after you all your life? How can you develop as an individual were God to be giving you everything you asking for?

So were a relative of mine dying of a progressive and fatal illness and I prayed sincerely, would they recover?it was their karmic time allotment to be born in a new world at that time

not quite its: do you really think you're going to convince ANYONE by posting all that?
I dont read any of Meatopias posts cause theyre too long and it sounds like hes trying too hard even convince himself of his own BS

Like I said before, all that was basically just an extended chick tract.

Only without the horrendous "artwork."




Seriously, growing grass has a better chance of converting people then those things.

Well, I hope I help at least ONE person in some way to be saved. That would be awesome :)

And as for all the rest of the witty remarks... if I were to make fun of someone because they are gay, or aethiest, or like to dress different, or whatever, you'd look down your nose at me. I'd be called names and told what a horrible person I am. Yet, you make fun of my beliefs even now and everyone else who believes in Jesus as our savior. You even KNOW that he existed and that he was foretold centuries before he arrived, yet you still make fun and jokes. Does that make you cool? Does that make you in with the in crowd? You want to give yourself over to hell to be cool?

I guess you've made your choice, for now. But it's never too late to change your choice before you die. Question is, will you die today? Tomorrow? In 100 years? You should carefully consider what you have heard and what you have read. Your eternal life depends on it.
thats because your beliefs are based on dogmatic brainwashing more then on any kind of real faith. How are you any different then a moonie?

Pfh, I've just consented that some people believe I'm going to hell :p


I know I'm not, and that's what matters ;)

Bottle raises interesting questions.
If God really exists, does he deserve our respect and our worship?
In the end, what has God done for us?
maybe in the end youll find out...

How did this debate about God turn into Bible babble?

I disagree. God isn't your fairly godmother. I am a prayerful man but I have no expectation of my prayers all being answered. God isn't Santa delivering presents to the children who've been "nice". How can you grow as a person if your parents look after you all your life? How can you develop as an individual were God to be giving you everything you asking for?well he wont give you stuff that could harm you or stop something thats fated (like a death) but if you use the power of the spoken word you can get alot more then you ever thought possible-the problem is most people are conditioned to believe that deep down their unworthy of getting more then what they already have..this is another damaging aspect of Christianity that brainwashes people into thinking that they are born "sinners" and that all our desires are somehow bad-when it comes to religion its not about God at all but all about CONTROL

Pfh, I've just consented that some people believe I'm going to hell :p


I know I'm not, and that's what matters ;)
it just proves my point that religion is a form of spiritual terrorism--its better to believe in God instead

thats because your beliefs are based on dogmatic brainwashing more then on any kind of real faith. How are you any different then a moonie?

I would agree with that statement in part, although I would disagree with the implication that Christianity as a whole is a simple 1+1=2 religion, although in many cases it can be. This may be slightly off the topic, but I'm going to give a description of the two broad branches of Christianity as I see them.

Simple Christianity
This would include most of the newer Churche. It works off a series of literal interpretations of the bible. Everything is simple and easy to understand. The bible contains an answer for everything and is entirely literal. People and experiences are divided into good and evil. Threats of hell and damnation are major parts. Tends to put a peculiar emphasis on baptism. These are the wackos who knock on your door and say 'Hi, have you spoken to GOD recently?'

Mystic Christianity
Practiced mainly by the older Churches, although in many you will find differences between Parishes (eg High Anglicans, some Roman Catholics, Church of Assyria etc). It is not simple and usually every answer poses more answers. It works off an allegorical interpretation of the bible and is generally more eccumenical. It is interesting to note that dogma (ie official viewpoint) of at least the latter two Churches now states that Heaven is not a state reserved only for Christians.

well he wont give you stuff that could harm you or stop something thats fated (like a death) but if you use the power of the spoken word you can get alot more then you ever thought possible-the problem is most people are conditioned to believe that deep down their unworthy of getting more then what they already have..this is another damaging aspect of Christianity that brainwashes people into thinking that they are born "sinners" and that all our desires are somehow bad-when it comes to religion its not about God at all but all about CONTROL

It is dangerous to lump all Christians into one basket. There is huge variation between the Churches. I would recommend you take a look at more of them before expounding those views. Some Christian Churches are indeed about control but to say they all are is a case of generalisation.

I would agree with that statement in part, although I would disagree with the implication that Christianity as a whole is a simple 1+1=2 religion, although in many cases it can be. This may be slightly off the topic, but I'm going to give a description of the two broad branches of Christianity as I see them.

Simple Christianity
This would include most of the newer Churche. It works off a series of literal interpretations of the bible. Everything is simple and easy to understand. The bible contains an answer for everything and is entirely literal. People and experiences are divided into good and evil. Threats of hell and damnation are major parts. Tends to put a peculiar emphasis on baptism. These are the wackos who knock on your door and say 'Hi, have you spoken to GOD recently?'

Mystic Christianity
Practiced mainly by the older Churches, although in many you will find differences between Parishes (eg High Anglicans, some Roman Catholics, Church of Assyria etc). It is not simple and usually every answer poses more answers. It works off an allegorical interpretation of the bible and is generally more eccumenical. It is interesting to note that dogma (ie official viewpoint) of at least the latter two Churches now states that Heaven is not a state reserved only for Christians.obviously the mystic christianity is closer to the truth cause it allowes freedom of thought and is constantly evolving and its not like the brain drain dogma of organized religion for sheeple afraid to think for themselves and to question things

Let's try and be a bit more accommodating, hmm?


http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DrChaotica.jpg (http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/taunt1.mp3)
Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator

more accomodating of trolls who post nothing more than one-liner insults? wow, these forums have changed more than just their appearance if that is going to be the way things work from now on.

It is dangerous to lump all Christians into one basket. There is huge variation between the Churches. I would recommend you take a look at more of them before expounding those views. Some Christian Churches are indeed about control but to say they all are is a case of generalisation.
well the most vocal christians are the moonie type variety and their always pounding their bibles spouting their own irrational interpretations of it like it came directly from Gods own mouth and anyone who questions the logical phallacy of it is DAMNED TO HELL that I take issue with...I was raised to be Catholic but I reject now all the lies of the Catholic Church (altho to this day I sometimes miss confession, I always had alot of fun with that)

I'll give you one of my favourite examples of simplified Christianity at work. The Minister at a certain "7th Day Adventist" Church made a startling discovery. He was reading the book of Revelations one day, when he came to a passage which clearly read to him that the Pope was attempting world domination. So naturally he posted a full page spread in a newspaper detailing how people should be wary of those Catholics as they're all part of a secret world domination army, it says so in the bible.
Now to anyone with half a brain this would seem completely absurd. I'm sure a lot of the Catholics out there were quite surprised to find out they were part of a world domination army.

The point of this is the Bible shouldn't be left for anyone to interpret at will, you get some very strange ideas coming out. That is why you need a well trained Preacher to help in spiritual enlightenment. That is where I feel the main failings of the Anglican/Catholic churches are. There can be a great variation in what kind of preacher a Parish recieves. On one hand they can get a highly educated mystic, wheras on the other they can end up with a small minded fool who raves about burning all the homosexuals. This is possibly more prevalent in the Catholic Church which still drags its heels from time to time when it comes to change.

well the most vocal christians are the moonie type variety and their always pounding their bibles spouting their own irrational interpretations of it like it came directly from Gods own mouth and anyone who questions the logical phallacy of it is DAMNED TO HELL that I take issue with...I was raised to be Catholic but I reject now all the lies of the Catholic Church (altho to this day I sometimes miss confession, I always had alot of fun with that)

personally I'm quite a fan of the Catholic Church. I feel the Pope has his head in the right place, he seems dedicated to eccumenicalism, even if many of the Bishops aren't. At least the Priests I've had contact with seem fairly open to new ideas (although this is possibly a case of regional variation. Most people in New Zealand seem to view the Church positively although in the USA it seems to have a very bad reputation, having met a lot of disillusioned American Catholics) and an allegorical interpretation of the Bible (I was educated at a Catholic school).
The Church I really have a lot of problems with is the Baptist Church, I remember having huge amounts of trouble trying to convince them I'm not a sinner through some of the study I was doing on genetics and hence evolution (which aparently is a great lie).

I'll give you one of my favourite examples of simplified Christianity at work. The Minister at a certain "7th Day Adventist" Church made a startling discovery. He was reading the book of Revelations one day, when he came to a passage which clearly read to him that the Pope was attempting world domination. So naturally he posted a full page spread in a newspaper detailing how people should be wary of those Catholics as they're all part of a secret world domination army, it says so in the bible.
Now to anyone with half a brain this would seem completely absurd. I'm sure a lot of the Catholics out there were quite surprised to find out they were part of a world domination army.

The point of this is the Bible shouldn't be left for anyone to interpret at will, you get some very strange ideas coming out. That is why you need a well trained Preacher to help in spiritual enlightenment. That is where I feel the main failings of the Anglican/Catholic churches are. There can be a great variation in what kind of preacher a Parish recieves. On one hand they can get a highly educated mystic, wheras on the other they can end up with a small minded fool who raves about burning all the homosexuals. This is possibly more prevalent in the Catholic Church which still drags its heels from time to time when it comes to change.
or maybe the bible was always meant to speak to people different ways on a personal individual level and that there is no one right way to interpret it at all-another thing thats rediculous about the people who interpret the Bible literally is the fact that it wasnt written literally and literal writing-style wasnt even practiced during the times the Bible was written. People who interpret it literally are being intellectually dishonest

Kudos to Dyelli Beybi for your open-mindedness. You made me hopeful that not all christians are small minded pr****.

First of all let me just say that the person who made this thread is not in any sense a propper example of how most atheists are. just as members of the klu klux klan do not give a good example of how most christians are.


Now, lets discuss the issue at hand.


"They have infallible proof that their g-ds exist, something you didn't think about when you tried to shock people with your gothy, atheist thread. Next time you want more attention, why don't you do something useful, like planting a tree or get a job so that your parents doesn't have to work all day long to support you. Mabye then will you make sense in your statements, or at least find a different way to get attention. Try volunteering. They'll take anyone. "

I sure would love to see this "infallible proof" you talk about. Actually it would be a shock to most of the world. So please... share this proof with me, enlightnen me *smirk*

The truth is there is no solid evidence for any god existing.


Lets take a look at christianity... a religion that is strikingly simular to many other religions, including lots of pagan ones.


The christ figure for example...

He truly is not even an original character. In fact if he ever even existed at all his image has been distorted with so many lies and filled with such fantasy that the man is probably as simular to the myth as a grape is to a raisin


Lets take a look at the simularities between the beloved jesus and other religious godmen.

First up: Buddha.
1. Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."
2. Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples.
3. He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
4. He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
5. He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
6. Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.
7. He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
8. Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"
9. the "Carpenter"
10. He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."


Next up we have the lovely pagan god: Horus
1. Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
2. He had 12 disciples.
3. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
4. He walked on water.
5. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
6. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
7. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish
8. Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.


Next we have: Mithra The Sungod of persia. The story of mithra was around atleast 500 years before christianity, Shortly before the rise of christianity The cult of mithra was the most widespread and popular pagan religion of the time.
1. Mithra was born on December 25th.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. He performed miracles.
5. He was buried in a tomb.
6. After three days he rose again.
7. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
8. Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
9. He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
10. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
11. Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.


Next we have : Krishna of Hinduism
1. Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki
2. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
3. He worked miracles and wonders.
4. He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind
5. In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
6. He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven
7. Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
8. He is the second person of the Trinity, and claimed to be the way to the father.
9. His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
10. Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

Next is Prometheus of Greece:
1. Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind
2. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.


So as you can see your jesus is not original in any sense of the world, indeed there may have been an insane cult leader named jesus but he truly was nothing even remotely close to what people claim him to be. In fact "The Book of Enoch" was concealed by the church due to it revealing jesus as nothing more than a man with manly needs. I do indeed believe it had him quite fond of women aswell ;)

There is also no indisputable recorded history of any of what the bible claims about him. The only proof you have that this jesus christ ever lived are two entries by the jewish historian that has been PROVEN to be completely and utterly false and added by christian leaders who thought josephus should have said something about jesus. They really did a rather sloppy job of it aswell.

Christianity would not have been what it is today if it was not for constantine and the roman elite using it to unite a steady declining empire, the warmonger used christianity as an effective tool... a tool which has been used over and over.


Now lets look at the concept of god.

People cannot fathom the universe and the earth being here without there being some kind of god, or some kind of creator. Yet they believe that this god either always existed or self created himself. Is that not rather silly? If you believe god can always exist then why not the universe? I believe that what we consider to be the universe is nothing more than a sliver of the big pictures. I believe every universe gives birth to another universe in an endless cycle. One big explosion that causes an unstoppable chain reaction. That is only my theory however, it sounds alot more realistic than any god fellow.

Now the arrogance of humanity is truly sickening. We are... in every sense of the word... animals. We are mammals, We bleed the same, We Discrete the Same, We in essence are just animals with bigger brains.

The theory that god made animals to serve us is absolutely and completely absurd. We are social animals with big brains, that is all. If anyone is familiar with the brilliant scientist Richard Dawkins and his theory on Memetics then you know what I'm getting at. Religion is basically a societal meme passed down from generation to generation to help society function properly. It is a way to prevent chaos. As napolean said "Religion is great stuff to keep the poor from murdering the rich". The poor man is most likely to not rob and kill the rich man who basically shits on him if he deludes himself into thinking all of his suffering will be rewarded in some fairy tale afterlife.

So religion is a very effective tool to keep society ruled properly. However as we continue to evolve as a species I do indeed believe that religion as we see it now will be replaced with something far more universal and scientific.


Now there was once a girl, she was 6 years old. She was a very good christian, she loves god and she loves jesus with all of her little heart. One day at the playground she was kidnapped, taken to a mans basement, restrained, raped and tortured for 8 months. The most sick kind of torture you can imagine along the lines of burning her genitals. The man decided to move and left her tied in the basement with no food or water. This girl died of dehydration. This man was eventually caught and in jail he was "Saved" he was "born again" upon being executed he told his family he will someday see them in heaven.


Now lets ask ourselves a few things. If there was a god... why did he not save this lovely little follower? Secondly how can such a despicable human being be allowed into heaven by simply converting to christianity?

How much sense does it make for a childrapist and murderer to be allowed into heaven simply because he chose to be a christian right before he died and then to have a good hearted atheist who has lived his life in love and done good things simply because he wanted to, who did not believe in god or christianity because there was not enough evidence for it and such an overwhelming amount against it? Tell me now... what kind of god, what kind of creed is this? it seems very demented to me indeed.


Also how can god be holding mankind responsible for his mistakes? lets take a closer look at this freewill theory.


Now, most christians agree that god is all knowing... that he knows the past, the present, and the future. Now surely if god knew the future then really what reason did he have in creating anything at all? He truly would have no need to create anything whatsoever.


But so this all knowing god decided to have some fun, so he created his angels... including satan. Ofcourse before he even thought of creating satan he know that satan would betray him. So he goes along and decided to create earth. Now before he even thought of creating humans... he knew exactly what would happen. He would know everything that will ever occur in the history of the human race. Now he gives us this blessing of free will.. yet he knew exactly what would come of it. How much sense does this make?


So since god knows everything he already knows who and who will not enter heaven... so what is the point of making us go through living? it is completely and utterly illogical.


Also how does anyone truly have free willl? If god knows everything I will do, everything that will happen... how do I have free will? In all honesty nobody has free will. You were never asked if you wanted to be created, you did not decide where you would be born, who your parents would be, what gender or how you would look. Tell a dying child in an african nation that he has free will and god is currently blessing him and god does everything for a reason, including his suffering. Then I'm sure you will go back to your comfortable lives of filling your face with mcdonalds and watching reality tv shows.


and if you believe in demons and stuff... how can you be so sure that jesus was not a demon who was bent on turning you away from some other god? Hell how do you know that god and satans roles arnt reversed and you and millions of others have been tricked to a life of torment? The truth is you dont.


Also if god created the earth specifically for humans then how do you explain all the other planets? What... did it take your god a few tries before he finally got ir right?

First, I want to point out that, although I am a Christian, and agree with most of the stuff that Meatopiaa originally posted, they is a great amount of dispute among Christians about many issues raised in this post (as others have pointed out), so no-one, myself included, can really speak for the whole of Christianity.
That said:
Where did you get your lists of similarities between Christ and various other figures in different religions? Since I have never heard of most of these similarities, and I have studied different religions, can you give some sort of source material for your claims?
I also had not heard that Joesephus' references to Jesus had been proved to be false. Again, some sort of reference would be nice.
I sort of agree with your comments about Constantine, which is why I'm interested in the Christianity that existed before him.
A self-existent or cyclic universe is no more or less logically consistent than a self-existent Creator.
Not everyone thinks that Richard Dawkins is brilliant, though I admit he is certainly consistent in his fairly strident atheism.

On the salvation issue, you are assuming that people are basically good if they have not done anything really bad. I'm assuming people are basically self-centered unless they make God the central focus of their lives. Your example (of the little girl and her murderer) is also rather manipulative in the way it is intended to generate an emotional, rather than a rational, response.

On the free-will issue, there is a school of thought in Christianity that God does not have total knowledge of the future, but only of the past and the present (see http://www.stnews.org/archives/2004_january/live/feat_process_0104.html as well as books mentioned in that article). This has the potential to resolve a lot of the intellectual problems with the existence of free will, the effectiveness of prayer, the presence of evil, and many other areas.

As for Jesus being a demon, that's logically consistent, but I don't believe it, because of my personal relationship with my Father in heaven, his Son who is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I can't adequately explain this relationship to you, or anyone, in words, but it's real.

On the existence of planets, what's that got to do with anything?

As for Josephus... it may have not been 100% proven that it is false however it has been shown to be so highly probable that it was tampered with that any honest person could not claim it as any evidence whatsoever for the bibles authenticity.


For this I refer you to http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html


Now about jesus being so strikingly simular to many other religious figures please go to http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html

Now I do not totally agree with the author on everything however I do firmly agree about the simularities. Once i read the article, and later her book... I did some research of my own and confirmed what she said. It is so strikingly simular it is almost funny, if not a little sad.


"On the salvation issue, you are assuming that people are basically good if they have not done anything really bad. I'm assuming people are basically self-centered unless they make God the central focus of their lives. Your example (of the little girl and her murderer) is also rather manipulative in the way it is intended to generate an emotional, rather than a rational, response."

Yes, I do assume most people are basically good if they have not done anything bad. I find this belief much more logical then the christian view of everyone being sinners from birth and already corrupted with sin. People are self centered? that is like saying a monkey or a wolf is self centered. We, just like all other animals have a built in instinct to survive. However the majority of humans are caring and overall good people. However I try hard to refrain from using terms such as "good" and "evil" as they are such relative terms that they truly do not mean much. Now about the example I gave... just so you know that really happened. It happened when I was a little boy going to church. So I'm sorry if it seems a bit violent or harsh for you but it is reality and it is no different than a christian threatening me with an eternal hell for not believing the way they want me to.



"On the free-will issue, there is a school of thought in Christianity that God does not have total knowledge of the future, but only of the past and the present (see http://www.stnews.org/archives/2004...ocess_0104.html as well as books mentioned in that article). This has the potential to resolve a lot of the intellectual problems with the existence of free will, the effectiveness of prayer, the presence of evil, and many other areas."

It may have the potential to resolve many problems but also will without a doubt create so many more. If you agree to this then it is saying your god is now all knowing and all powerful. If your god doesnt even know the future, how exactly can we believe prophecies? These prophecies supposedly coming from god and yet god doesnt even know 100% of what will happen. So this would mean that god is an imperfect being. So whos to say that he will overcome satan in the end? I mean he doesnt know, right? Also this raises an interesting question... if god doesnt know everything that will happen in the future, isnt it logical to think that he may have used humans as his pawns against his enemy satan? Isnt it possible that he could have used the bible for smeer propoganda against this satan fellow? Couldnt it be in all reality that satan is a good guy and that this god is a bad guy fooling us all? The argument that god doesnt know everything that will happen leaves so many loopholes. those are only a few, I'm sure if I had more time I could think of quite a few more.


"As for Jesus being a demon, that's logically consistent, but I don't believe it, because of my personal relationship with my Father in heaven, his Son who is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I can't adequately explain this relationship to you, or anyone, in words, but it's real."

Ofcourse you cant and to you it is very real. I respect that but what I cannot respect is how you can assume that everybody else who has close personal relationships to their gods and godmen of their own religion are somehow worshipping the wrong one. Alot of christians even claim they are worshipping satan himself! I mean how truly arrogant is that? Your relationship with god is very real to you, A muslims relationship to Allah is very real to them, Hindus relationships with the deities of their religion are very personal and real to them. How can you be so arrogant as to think that they are all wrong but yet you are right? Also how can you ignore the fact that if you grew up in another region with another culture that in all likelyhood you would most likely be whatever the popular religion was?

Well, it's true that god is used as a form of mind control. But I don't agree with Unholy Ones delivery. It's insulting. And very typical of an 8th grader.

As for Josephus... it may have not been 100% proven that it is false however it has been shown to be so highly probable that it was tampered with that any honest person could not claim it as any evidence whatsoever for the bibles authenticity.


For this I refer you to http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html


Now about jesus being so strikingly simular to many other religious figures please go to http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html

Now I do not totally agree with the author on everything however I do firmly agree about the simularities. Once i read the article, and later her book... I did some research of my own and confirmed what she said. It is so strikingly simular it is almost funny, if not a little sad.


"On the salvation issue, you are assuming that people are basically good if they have not done anything really bad. I'm assuming people are basically self-centered unless they make God the central focus of their lives. Your example (of the little girl and her murderer) is also rather manipulative in the way it is intended to generate an emotional, rather than a rational, response."

Yes, I do assume most people are basically good if they have not done anything bad. I find this belief much more logical then the christian view of everyone being sinners from birth and already corrupted with sin. People are self centered? that is like saying a monkey or a wolf is self centered. We, just like all other animals have a built in instinct to survive. However the majority of humans are caring and overall good people. However I try hard to refrain from using terms such as "good" and "evil" as they are such relative terms that they truly do not mean much. Now about the example I gave... just so you know that really happened. It happened when I was a little boy going to church. So I'm sorry if it seems a bit violent or harsh for you but it is reality and it is no different than a christian threatening me with an eternal hell for not believing the way they want me to.



"On the free-will issue, there is a school of thought in Christianity that God does not have total knowledge of the future, but only of the past and the present (see http://www.stnews.org/archives/2004...ocess_0104.html as well as books mentioned in that article). This has the potential to resolve a lot of the intellectual problems with the existence of free will, the effectiveness of prayer, the presence of evil, and many other areas."

It may have the potential to resolve many problems but also will without a doubt create so many more. If you agree to this then it is saying your god is now all knowing and all powerful. If your god doesnt even know the future, how exactly can we believe prophecies? These prophecies supposedly coming from god and yet god doesnt even know 100% of what will happen. So this would mean that god is an imperfect being. So whos to say that he will overcome satan in the end? I mean he doesnt know, right? Also this raises an interesting question... if god doesnt know everything that will happen in the future, isnt it logical to think that he may have used humans as his pawns against his enemy satan? Isnt it possible that he could have used the bible for smeer propoganda against this satan fellow? Couldnt it be in all reality that satan is a good guy and that this god is a bad guy fooling us all? The argument that god doesnt know everything that will happen leaves so many loopholes. those are only a few, I'm sure if I had more time I could think of quite a few more.


"As for Jesus being a demon, that's logically consistent, but I don't believe it, because of my personal relationship with my Father in heaven, his Son who is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I can't adequately explain this relationship to you, or anyone, in words, but it's real."

Ofcourse you cant and to you it is very real. I respect that but what I cannot respect is how you can assume that everybody else who has close personal relationships to their gods and godmen of their own religion are somehow worshipping the wrong one. Alot of christians even claim they are worshipping satan himself! I mean how truly arrogant is that? Your relationship with god is very real to you, A muslims relationship to Allah is very real to them, Hindus relationships with the deities of their religion are very personal and real to them. How can you be so arrogant as to think that they are all wrong but yet you are right? Also how can you ignore the fact that if you grew up in another region with another culture that in all likelyhood you would most likely be whatever the popular religion was?

You gave the same link twice; I'd still appreciate the link to the similarities of religious figures to Jesus. I've only glanced at the article you referenced, but I'm not very impressed so far (not that you thought I would be).
On your belief in the basic goodness of humanity, we may have to agree to disagree for now. For me, even a casual glance at history and current affairs reinforces my belief that people are fundamentally messed up.
I do not deny the accuracy of your example, I just question the way you presented it.
On prophecies, I believe God has the ability to cause things to happen, and that therefore, if He gives a prophecy on something, then that thing will happen. If the future doesn't exist (a proposition central to open theology), then God's not knowing about it is not a limit on His total knowledge, just as the silly "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it" type arguments do not present a limit to God's power.
He'll overcome Satan in the end because He is infinitely more powerful than Satan.
The suggestion that God is bad and Satan good has nothing to do with the question of God's knowledge of the future, so I assume you threw it in to muddy the waters.
There are so many contradictory beliefs about God, and indeed the nature of the supernatural in general, that they cannot all be right. You say you respect my beliefs, as long as I don't say that others are wrong. My beliefs include the beliefs that other religions are wrong in important ways, and that Jesus really is the only way to God. I don't think this is arrogant, because I believe that God set me right on this after many years of agnosticism, and all over the world, people convert to Christianity in the face of their culture, their parents' beliefs, even the laws of their country. People are still killed these days for becoming Christian (mostly in Muslim countries), but they do anyway, cause they know it's the truth.

My apologies. http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm is the link.

"On your belief in the basic goodness of humanity, we may have to agree to disagree for now. For me, even a casual glance at history and current affairs reinforces my belief that people are fundamentally messed up. "

I did not mean to say all humans are generally good at their core. That is far from the truth. Humans have an instinct to survive, you can cover it up with as much spiritual candy as you want however humans are animals with big brains. Nothing more and nothing less. Would you say a wolf is evil that kills another wolf who entered its packs territory? surely not. Just as you would not say a lion is evil for killing a buffalo or that we are evil for killing millions of animals every day to feed us. Good and Bad are concepts, memes if you will that have evolved through many years to establish some order in society.


I believe humans however are completely neutral upon birth. I do not think a baby is bad at its core. I do not believe an atheistic person who strives hard to do good and has never done anything seriously bad should be considered a bad person. I think that judgement is ludacris. Someone can be a perfectly good person without any belief in a god. To say that one needs to believe in your god to be a good person is completely absurd and unfounded.


" do not deny the accuracy of your example, I just question the way you presented it.
On prophecies, I believe God has the ability to cause things to happen, and that therefore, if He gives a prophecy on something, then that thing will happen. If the future doesn't exist (a proposition central to open theology), then God's not knowing about it is not a limit on His total knowledge, just as the silly "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it" type arguments do not present a limit to God's power.
He'll overcome Satan in the end because He is infinitely more powerful than Satan. "

But satan has the power to influence things aswell, correct? so if god cant know the "future" then how can he be so sure that he will win? You claim to know for certain that god has more power than satan but how do you know? the truth is you dont, you have faith. Your faith is no better than any other religons.


"You say you respect my beliefs, as long as I don't say that others are wrong. My beliefs include the beliefs that other religions are wrong in important ways, and that Jesus really is the only way to God. I don't think this is arrogant, because I believe that God set me right on this after many years of agnosticism, and all over the world, people convert to Christianity in the face of their culture, their parents' beliefs, even the laws of their country. People are still killed these days for becoming Christian (mostly in Muslim countries), but they do anyway, cause they know it's the truth."

lol I'm sorry but that made me laugh quite hard. What does that prove or show at all? Are you denying the same exact thing hasnt happened in reverse? you dont believe thousands of christians have converted to other religions despite of heavy persecution from others, including their parents? I mean there are TONS of people who become atheists but yet their parents disown them and they face harsh judgements from their family/friends. So please tell me the point of that example.

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster



*licks the post*

Tastes troll-ish.

My apologies. http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm is the link.

"On your belief in the basic goodness of humanity, we may have to agree to disagree for now. For me, even a casual glance at history and current affairs reinforces my belief that people are fundamentally messed up. "

I did not mean to say all humans are generally good at their core. That is far from the truth. Humans have an instinct to survive, you can cover it up with as much spiritual candy as you want however humans are animals with big brains. Nothing more and nothing less. Would you say a wolf is evil that kills another wolf who entered its packs territory? surely not. Just as you would not say a lion is evil for killing a buffalo or that we are evil for killing millions of animals every day to feed us. Good and Bad are concepts, memes if you will that have evolved through many years to establish some order in society.


I believe humans however are completely neutral upon birth. I do not think a baby is bad at its core. I do not believe an atheistic person who strives hard to do good and has never done anything seriously bad should be considered a bad person. I think that judgement is ludacris. Someone can be a perfectly good person without any belief in a god. To say that one needs to believe in your god to be a good person is completely absurd and unfounded.


" do not deny the accuracy of your example, I just question the way you presented it.
On prophecies, I believe God has the ability to cause things to happen, and that therefore, if He gives a prophecy on something, then that thing will happen. If the future doesn't exist (a proposition central to open theology), then God's not knowing about it is not a limit on His total knowledge, just as the silly "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it" type arguments do not present a limit to God's power.
He'll overcome Satan in the end because He is infinitely more powerful than Satan. "

But satan has the power to influence things aswell, correct? so if god cant know the "future" then how can he be so sure that he will win? You claim to know for certain that god has more power than satan but how do you know? the truth is you dont, you have faith. Your faith is no better than any other religons.


"You say you respect my beliefs, as long as I don't say that others are wrong. My beliefs include the beliefs that other religions are wrong in important ways, and that Jesus really is the only way to God. I don't think this is arrogant, because I believe that God set me right on this after many years of agnosticism, and all over the world, people convert to Christianity in the face of their culture, their parents' beliefs, even the laws of their country. People are still killed these days for becoming Christian (mostly in Muslim countries), but they do anyway, cause they know it's the truth."

lol I'm sorry but that made me laugh quite hard. What does that prove or show at all? Are you denying the same exact thing hasnt happened in reverse? you dont believe thousands of christians have converted to other religions despite of heavy persecution from others, including their parents? I mean there are TONS of people who become atheists but yet their parents disown them and they face harsh judgements from their family/friends. So please tell me the point of that example.

BUMP, because i want to hear responses to this.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people.

More likely is becasue no you could figure out how thing like plants growwing and rain falling happen. So some sort of high life more made sence.

The control came later.

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster
I feel sorry for you, cuz obviously you've been misled. "Religion" is a personal experience. Nobody can tell you "Hey, look! There's God!" - you have to feel it YOURSELF. Those political junkies who manipulate religion for their stupid and selfish gains should not be mixed with those who seek pure religion.

My apologies. http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm is the link.

"On your belief in the basic goodness of humanity, we may have to agree to disagree for now. For me, even a casual glance at history and current affairs reinforces my belief that people are fundamentally messed up. "

I did not mean to say all humans are generally good at their core. That is far from the truth. Humans have an instinct to survive, you can cover it up with as much spiritual candy as you want however humans are animals with big brains. Nothing more and nothing less. Would you say a wolf is evil that kills another wolf who entered its packs territory? surely not. Just as you would not say a lion is evil for killing a buffalo or that we are evil for killing millions of animals every day to feed us. Good and Bad are concepts, memes if you will that have evolved through many years to establish some order in society.


I believe humans however are completely neutral upon birth. I do not think a baby is bad at its core. I do not believe an atheistic person who strives hard to do good and has never done anything seriously bad should be considered a bad person. I think that judgement is ludacris. Someone can be a perfectly good person without any belief in a god. To say that one needs to believe in your god to be a good person is completely absurd and unfounded.


" do not deny the accuracy of your example, I just question the way you presented it.
On prophecies, I believe God has the ability to cause things to happen, and that therefore, if He gives a prophecy on something, then that thing will happen. If the future doesn't exist (a proposition central to open theology), then God's not knowing about it is not a limit on His total knowledge, just as the silly "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it" type arguments do not present a limit to God's power.
He'll overcome Satan in the end because He is infinitely more powerful than Satan. "

But satan has the power to influence things aswell, correct? so if god cant know the "future" then how can he be so sure that he will win? You claim to know for certain that god has more power than satan but how do you know? the truth is you dont, you have faith. Your faith is no better than any other religons.


"You say you respect my beliefs, as long as I don't say that others are wrong. My beliefs include the beliefs that other religions are wrong in important ways, and that Jesus really is the only way to God. I don't think this is arrogant, because I believe that God set me right on this after many years of agnosticism, and all over the world, people convert to Christianity in the face of their culture, their parents' beliefs, even the laws of their country. People are still killed these days for becoming Christian (mostly in Muslim countries), but they do anyway, cause they know it's the truth."

lol I'm sorry but that made me laugh quite hard. What does that prove or show at all? Are you denying the same exact thing hasnt happened in reverse? you dont believe thousands of christians have converted to other religions despite of heavy persecution from others, including their parents? I mean there are TONS of people who become atheists but yet their parents disown them and they face harsh judgements from their family/friends. So please tell me the point of that example.

Sorry for the delay, I was too tired last night to tackle this properly.

Well, I've read both links, and I can't say I'm impressed. Thanks for providing them anyway.
We ARE going to have to agree to disagree about the nature of humanity for the moment, because I don't accept that humans are just animals with big brains, I don't believe all our behaviour stems from the survival instinct, I do believe in an absolute standard of good and evil, and that said standard is defined by God.
When I was agnostic, I acknowledged that doing "good" things for others made me feel good. I recognised this was not true altruism, selfless love for others, but it seemed close enough to me. Now, I've seen the glimmerings of possibility of true selfless love, not inspired by how it makes me feel, but just because it's the right thing to do. I'm not skilled at carrying out this selfless love ('agape' in New Testament Greek), but the whole point of Christianity is allowing God to change you so that, ultimately, this kind of love defines everything you do and say and think and are.

Satan does indeed have the power to influence things, but it seems to me you're trying to play both ends of the field. You say that God can't be sure he'll win if He doesn't know the future, but inherent to the description of God that Christianity provides is that He is the source of all existence and power and intelligence, He is supreme in every way. If you don't accept this definition of God, then talking about Satan defeating Him makes no sense, because Satan is also described by the same Bible that describes God.

Saying that I don't know, but that I have faith, is redundant. All that we call knowledge is based on a great number of unproven beliefs, such as the belief that our senses give us accurate information, the belief that our minds are capable of processing that information logically, the belief that our memories are accurate representations of our past. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. All knowledge is faith-based, as is my knowledge of God.

My point about the conversions to Christianity is that such converts are prepared to die for their decision, but not to kill for it. There seem to be plenty of reasons that compel people to kill, not so many that compel them to die without killing. I would question how many of the atheists who used to be Christians actually believed before they gave up on Christianity, and how many had simply been told to go to church by their parents, and rebelled against this imposition as soon as possible. My parents took me to church as a child, and I went, but never believed; it was never significant. I became a Christian, actually started to trust God in every part of my life, about 4 years 4 months ago, while at university, and the difference between my experience of God and church now, and the experience I had as a child, is immeasurable.

And Bottle, I don't know what BUMP means, but I'm glad it's not just HumanismManifesto reading my posts!

What if I say Hitler was a lie and he never existed?

And Bottle, I don't know what BUMP means, but I'm glad it's not just HumanismManifesto reading my posts!

just FYI, BUMP means that i wanted to "bump" the thread back onto the first page by posting on it, even though i didn't have something specific to say about it. i did that because i wanted more people to notice and reply to that post i quoted, since i was curious about what people thought.

sorry for the confusion!

What if I say Hitler was a lie and he never existed?

what does that have to do with this thread? there are thousands of people still alive today who saw Hitler first hand. there is photographic proof of his presence. there are countless documented sources from dozens of nations and governments proving that somebody called "Hitler" rose to power in Germany in the early middle of the last century.

if you are trying to claim that denying Hitler is like denying Jesus, you would have to realize that the evidence for the existence of a Rabbi who revolutionized Judaism and claimed to be the messiah is somewhat shakey, and the different sources often contradict one another. there is also NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that this Rabbi, possibly named Jesus, was actually the son of God or had any magic powers whatsoever. there is NO evidence that he rose from the dead, walked on water, or gave eyesight to the blind. the only reason we have to believe in that is because of the fabels written in the Bible, and many theology researchers interpret these stories as intended to be fictional morality tales.

We ARE going to have to agree to disagree about the nature of humanity for the moment, because I don't accept that humans are just animals with big brains, I don't believe all our behaviour stems from the survival instinct, I do believe in an absolute standard of good and evil, and that said standard is defined by God.

But why? Why does God demand an absolute? If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, then surely this means that God must be, at least in part, "evil" as well as "good". Therefore, this either creates a paradox or requires the abandoning of absolute "good" and "evil", at least as judged by the arbitrary meter stick of divinity. Even if one allows for the paradox (and in matters of religious speculation, I'm more than willing to allow for paradox), then why does this have to be the only one? With God again being omnipotent and omnipresent, is it not more likely that God is also capable of infinite paradox? If this is true, then is it not also possible that God may indeed be all things that mankind has attributed to it, including the myriad personifications of God from various religious traditions. In effect, to say God is "anything", you must admit at least the possibility that God is "everything" to be in line with any given personification. Otherwise, you impose limits on God.

When I was agnostic, I acknowledged that doing "good" things for others made me feel good. I recognised this was not true altruism, selfless love for others, but it seemed close enough to me. Now, I've seen the glimmerings of possibility of true selfless love, not inspired by how it makes me feel, but just because it's the right thing to do. I'm not skilled at carrying out this selfless love ('agape' in New Testament Greek), but the whole point of Christianity is allowing God to change you so that, ultimately, this kind of love defines everything you do and say and think and are.

Then which is more important? Works or words? Pure, selfless love is an excellent goal to aspire to, although it is something I am unconvinced that human beings can ever truly attain (and that may not be a bad thing). But how is a system that rewards oaths and words that are not always honestly given, but given out of fear of some possible final judgement, yet ignores works and deeds by those who live more in the spirit of the teachings of the Christ than those who claim to be his followers worth anything? What sort of an example is that? Is a faith system worthy of being followed if, in the first place, people only follow it out of a sense of reward or fear and, in the second place, it rewards sophistry over substance?


Satan does indeed have the power to influence things, but it seems to me you're trying to play both ends of the field. You say that God can't be sure he'll win if He doesn't know the future, but inherent to the description of God that Christianity provides is that He is the source of all existence and power and intelligence, He is supreme in every way. If you don't accept this definition of God, then talking about Satan defeating Him makes no sense, because Satan is also described by the same Bible that describes God.

Then why battle at all? If the conclusion is inevitible because, as you said, God is the wellspring of all creation and commands supreme power over it, what is the point of Satan period?


Saying that I don't know, but that I have faith, is redundant. All that we call knowledge is based on a great number of unproven beliefs, such as the belief that our senses give us accurate information, the belief that our minds are capable of processing that information logically, the belief that our memories are accurate representations of our past. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. All knowledge is faith-based, as is my knowledge of God.

But isn't there a fundamental difference between a faith-based knowledge that can be tested and a faith-based knowledge that defies experimentation by it's very definition? While our senses may not always give us the complete picture, they do give us the ability to cross check the information they do give us and compare that information with the information of others to assemble a more complete and total picture. Why should religion work differently? Perhaps the only true way to approximate the reality of God is the same way as we approximate the collective reality of our sense information, through a gestalt formed from shared divine perceptions. While individual personifications of God are certainly part of the picture, perhaps they are not the whole of the story. Why should our sense of the divine function any different from the rest of our information gathering suite?


My point about the conversions to Christianity is that such converts are prepared to die for their decision, but not to kill for it. There seem to be plenty of reasons that compel people to kill, not so many that compel them to die without killing. I would question how many of the atheists who used to be Christians actually believed before they gave up on Christianity, and how many had simply been told to go to church by their parents, and rebelled against this imposition as soon as possible. My parents took me to church as a child, and I went, but never believed; it was never significant. I became a Christian, actually started to trust God in every part of my life, about 4 years 4 months ago, while at university, and the difference between my experience of God and church now, and the experience I had as a child, is immeasurable.

So is it a different God, or was the change in you? And given your own experience, then how can you dismiss someone who has had a similar experience, but has found a different conclusion (namely, embraced a faith other than Christianity)? In order for your conversion to be valid and respected, don't you have to offer that same validity and respect to others, even if their experience, which is just as honest as yours, is different?

I'm a little curious about something. We can't even prove that the universe is real and half of the people here get all worked up about the existence of a diety? I think we should concentrate on the basic issue before going on to the smaller stuff personally. If someone here can prove that the universe is real, I'll be happy to debate the existence of a God with them and hopefully this thread will be a little more enjoyable for all of us.

This argument spikes about once a week. It's probably the single argument in human history with the least productive or, for that matter, conclusive conclusions.

I'm a little curious about something. We can't even prove that the universe is real and half of the people here get all worked up about the existence of a diety? I think we should concentrate on the basic issue before going on to the smaller stuff personally. If someone here can prove that the universe is real, I'll be happy to debate the existence of a God with them and hopefully this thread will be a little more enjoyable for all of us.

Well, first I'd ask you what your definition of "real" is in regards to the universe.

I'd also suggest that the Universe's "reality" should be axiomatic because, in order to make any further assumptions or, indeed, proofs, you have to start with solid ground somewhere, even if it is arbitrary.

"Well, I've read both links, and I can't say I'm impressed. Thanks for providing them anyway"

Do you not agree with the information provided? Because the information about simular religious figures is true. If you disagree with it then please point out why and what evidence you have for it being wrong.

"Satan does indeed have the power to influence things, but it seems to me you're trying to play both ends of the field. You say that God can't be sure he'll win if He doesn't know the future, but inherent to the description of God that Christianity provides is that He is the source of all existence and power and intelligence, He is supreme in every way. If you don't accept this definition of God, then talking about Satan defeating Him makes no sense, because Satan is also described by the same Bible that describes God."

I'm afraid you miss the point completely. My point was that if your god has some kind of limitations(IE, doesnt know the future) then how can we be so sure that the description the bible gives of satan is correct? Isnt it logical to be skeptic? Perhapse your god CAN lose and just used the bible as nothing more than a tool against his most dangerous ally?


"Saying that I don't know, but that I have faith, is redundant. All that we call knowledge is based on a great number of unproven beliefs, such as the belief that our senses give us accurate information, the belief that our minds are capable of processing that information logically, the belief that our memories are accurate representations of our past. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. All knowledge is faith-based, as is my knowledge of God."

Not really. Science is based on tests, experiments, and evidence. It is constantly evolving, constantly improving. Expanding on itself. Science is not really faith based, atleast not in my opinion. However I suppose I can understand how you could conclude that. I, however do not consider anything that can be observed in the naturual world to have anything to do with faith.


"My point about the conversions to Christianity is that such converts are prepared to die for their decision, but not to kill for it. There seem to be plenty of reasons that compel people to kill, not so many that compel them to die without killing. I would question how many of the atheists who used to be Christians actually believed before they gave up on Christianity, and how many had simply been told to go to church by their parents, and rebelled against this imposition as soon as possible. My parents took me to church as a child, and I went, but never believed; it was never significant. I became a Christian, actually started to trust God in every part of my life, about 4 years 4 months ago, while at university, and the difference between my experience of God and church now, and the experience I had as a child, is immeasurable."

I have a friend who about 8 months ago converted to islam. His evangelical parents disowned him, called him a terrorist, and have broken all contact. Alot of his friends tease the hell out of him for it, and right now he is struggling just to survive. His parents are rather weatlhy and if they believed he was a christian he would be going to School in Michigan state this coming fall. However he does not regret the decision, his new found faith gives him great happyness.


I have another friend, who about 3 years or so ago left the catholic church and became a buddhist. He says it is the best decision he ever made, even though he lost his girlfriend of 15 months because of it.


My point is... its not hard for anybody to find fullfillment or satisfaction in some kind of deluded religious belief. it truly does not matter what the religion is. What about the pagans and other heretics that the christian religion has killed? they died for their beliefs, did they not? You really do come across as rather naive and flat out arrogant when you claim that people who would die for christianity are somehow unique or special.


Also I did truly believe in the christian religion when I was younger however as I got older I found more and more flaws. I researched into more and more things have weighed the pros and cons, examined the evidence and made a decision based on reason.

Well, first I'd ask you what your definition of "real" is in regards to the universe.

I'd also suggest that the Universe's "reality" should be axiomatic because, in order to make any further assumptions or, indeed, proofs, you have to start with solid ground somewhere, even if it is arbitrary.

Good first question! :D

Real: The property of having the modality that humans percieve it as having (both through their senses and the scientific method).

Aren't you making a set of assumptions when you say that we have to start somewhere?

Aren't you making a set of assumptions when you say that we have to start somewhere?

Of course I'm making the assumption that I have to make assumptions because if I don't assume that I need to make an assuptions in order to start making assumptions then I can't assume anything.

All clear? :)

"Saying that I don't know, but that I have faith, is redundant. All that we call knowledge is based on a great number of unproven beliefs, such as the belief that our senses give us accurate information, the belief that our minds are capable of processing that information logically, the belief that our memories are accurate representations of our past. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. All knowledge is faith-based, as is my knowledge of God."

Not really. Science is based on tests, experiments, and evidence. It is constantly evolving, constantly improving. Expanding on itself. Science is not really faith based, atleast not in my opinion. However I suppose I can understand how you could conclude that. I, however do not consider anything that can be observed in the naturual world to have anything to do with faith.

When you assume that you can test something you are operating under the assumption that the universe is real. You do not define that rather humongously ridiculous assumption as faith. Why not?

Of course I'm making the assumption that I have to make assumptions because if I don't assume that I need to make an assuptions in order to start making assumptions then I can't assume anything.

All clear? :)

Very. Why do you feel the need to assume anything at all?

A lot of scholars (and I share this belief) believe that Jesus's golden rule 'Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself' trump the Ten Commandments.

Ergo - Ghandi and all his non-chrisitan buddies are going to Heaven

I'd like to think that's true (and quite reasonable)

Why not try a practical/empirical experiment?

If God exists and cares anything about what you and me thinks, then let him/her/it (or whatever) prove it.

I suggest that everyone reading this post ask God to prove his/her/its existence to them within the timespan of, let's say a week.

Sounds fair?

Please post your test results in this thread.

How can we possibly call any great omnipotent power (God, Allah, Yahew, Jehovah) kind or good? If there is a God, and He is omnipotent, then we can not possibly call him kind if He created this world. Look at the world around you. This is no kind world. It is a world of darkness and despair.
People have asked about the meaning of life since we could ask queations. According to the Holy Bible, God created Man to love and be loved by. This is the great "Meaning of Life" for Christians. But if God really loved us why would he have allowed Satan to temp Eve in Eden? God is omnipotent, right? Wouldn't He have seen that coming?
And speaking of Satan, what would Hell be like? Seeing as how the traditional view of Hell is a great Pit of fire and brimstone ruled over by the evil Satan and his minions for all evil-doers and sinners who displeased God to go and burn for all eternity. Which doesn't make sense. Satan and his followers were once angels. Cast out of Heaven for their disobedience of God. So why, if Satan and his minions are evil and against God, would they punish those who are like them against God? Wouldn't they shower the evil people with gifts and greatness in Hell? If there is a Hell the wouldn't the terrorists of 9/11 be in a sinners paradise with their vergins promised to them?
I have seen many excuses for these points i share with you, but none have satisfied me. Please respond. I would be glad to hear from you.

Well I am going to follow my religion... just in case unbelievers are wrong. I mean really, what is the worst that is going to happen if I am wrong about God, I just blink out of existance? That is nothing for me to be scared about. I live a good life, I have fun and I am not oppressed by my beliefs. I really don't care what others believe, I don't force them to believe what I believe either. If don't like it then tough.

Mary, the Lesbian Christian

Well I am going to follow my religion... just in case unbelievers are wrong. I mean really, what is the worst that is going to happen if I am wrong about God, I just blink out of existance? That is nothing for me to be scared about. I live a good life, I have fun and I am not oppressed by my beliefs. I really don't care what others believe, I don't force them to believe what I believe either. If don't like it then tough.

Mary, the Lesbian Christian

Another version of Pascal's Wager eh? It sounds like you are happy with your choice of belief system. I'm glad.

OT: Why do you make specific note of your sexuality? Is it a very important fact that you think we should know? Just wondering.

I'm a Christian of the Lutheran sect (note there are now four sects within this one). There are 140+ sects of Christianity. Most of them are bleh to me as they are mainly your "fire + brimstone apocalypse and everyone must subscribe to their Christianity to be saved" type thing. You probably have to drink spiked kool-aid too.:)

The Bible's Old Testament is way different from the Jewish Tanakh(Torah is only the law books).
The Tanakh is ordered: the Torah, Prophets, Writings.
Our Old Testament is ordered: the Torah, Writings, Prophets.

The early Church reorganized it to make it look like the OT prophets were talking about Jesus. The problem with this reorganization is that you get a totally different portrait of God.

You can't have one single bible, you need a separate OT and NT. The best thing for OT material is a big blue book with a main title of "Tanakh" written by Jewish exegetes. This is actually about the Tanakh not the OT. Then the best NT material is the Oxford Annotated one where it has five different translations side by side.

The King James Bible has to be one of the stiffest translations ever, no abstract meanings anywhere. It's opposite is the New International Bible, all abstracts no literal meanings. Therefore both are bad as they are one-sided.

Anyways, Jesus was the son of god, he is the only person I've heard of resurrecting like that. But all those miracles he performed are just your basic Qi Gong or Reiki stuff. In fact the guy who founded Reiki looked into Jesus' healings to see how he did it.

See the people I think are the best Christians are the ones who approach their faith Far Eastern style. The problem with Christians nowadays is that they are generally too external. Jesus did say whoever tries to show their faith by doing something in public is a hypocrite. The pope tried to solve it by highlighting some mystics but we all know people don't listen to him. In Far Eastern religions, you must look for God and the heavens and align yourself with them. You do so through meditation and etc. Note: Buddhists DO NOT worship Buddha and Falun Gong is a cult.

Now the question that popped up in my Honors Biblical Exegesis class was "Since we are made in God's image, did God become disgusted with us and left our presence or are we just deaf to his ever present calling?"
(I just graduated from a supposedly Catholic HS,50% of students and faculty were not Catholic.)

Yeah we really care what u think..... i am christan but im not going to sit here and try to convince u that God is real cause frankly that is a big waste of my time. Plus i dont think ur small insanifacant brain could posssable understand what i was saying because you are too busy showing off and acting like a big shot... Why dont YOU do us a favor and SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!

How can we possibly call any great omnipotent power (God, Allah, Yahew, Jehovah) kind or good? If there is a God, and He is omnipotent, then we can not possibly call him kind if He created this world. Look at the world around you. This is no kind world. It is a world of darkness and despair.
People have asked about the meaning of life since we could ask queations. According to the Holy Bible, God created Man to love and be loved by. This is the great "Meaning of Life" for Christians. But if God really loved us why would he have allowed Satan to temp Eve in Eden? God is omnipotent, right? Wouldn't He have seen that coming?
And speaking of Satan, what would Hell be like? Seeing as how the traditional view of Hell is a great Pit of fire and brimstone ruled over by the evil Satan and his minions for all evil-doers and sinners who displeased God to go and burn for all eternity. Which doesn't make sense. Satan and his followers were once angels. Cast out of Heaven for their disobedience of God. So why, if Satan and his minions are evil and against God, would they punish those who are like them against God? Wouldn't they shower the evil people with gifts and greatness in Hell? If there is a Hell the wouldn't the terrorists of 9/11 be in a sinners paradise with their vergins promised to them?
I have seen many excuses for these points i share with you, but none have satisfied me. Please respond. I would be glad to hear from you.
Well yes i do agree with you on that... why did god let all that happen. But if u think about it Satan is cunning and evil.... Plus God told Eve not to eat the fruit and expected her not to. God did not make the world evil we did.. because of that one simple sin we forever sined. it is our way of life... we enjoy it...
Hell is as you said it is..... Satan tourches ppl because he wants to, he doesnt care if your like him.....the ppl who do go to hell are there to be punished not to live in paradise.It is far worse than bombing a buliding or war.

I am an atheist. I think most religions are stupid. This is simply because there are too many flaws to the bible and the idea of a god. If this "God" person created everything, how did this "God" come to be? Where was he/she before everything was created? Who created "God"? Where is this "God" now?
People do try to do good things though, so that they can go to this "heaven". Even though religion gives them motivation to do good deeds, it's for a very selfish reason - to go to this paradise. People should do good things because they are the right things to do, and not being forced to just so they can go to "heaven" themselves. Besides, nobody can be even sure that such a place even exists. Even though there is still a small chance that such a place exists (there's a chance for everything), why not instead of going to churches or praying or crashing planes into buildings to actually do something worthwhile with this life? This life is REAL, so enjoy this as much as you can because this "Heaven" place isn't guaranteed.
I think it's sad that people keep clinging to this hope of being able to go to a place that there is absolutely no proof that it even exist, when so much more can be done if you just stop thinking about it and live your life, because again, this world is REAL.
Besides, this "God" person doesn't even seem to be at all worshippable. He/She sounds like a jerk to me. He's like a dictator in the Bible. You say anything bad about him/her or if you don't worship him/her and he'll send down plagues and smite you. He's no better than Stalin or Hitler.
Even if this "heaven" existed, I'd rather go to "hell" instead. If everybody who goes to "heaven" has to follow some rediculous rules where fun is prohibited, then this "heaven" will be full of dull people, with the fun people being in "hell". Seriously, would you like to spend an eternity in a place full of peole without any sense of fun or spend that time in "hell", where there'll probably be parties every day?
In my opinion religion and money are the sources of almost all the problems in the world. In history, religious conflicts were very common, and indeed, still are. Take the Middle Eastern nations for example, conflicts there caused by religion kill hundreds every year. It's also sickening how much time people waste their time in churches or something instead of using that time to help out the human race.
And that's my opinion :).

Zazesspur

this world is REAL.

I respect your opinion but I would really appreciate it if you could prove that "this world is REAL."

What do you mean by real?

What do you mean by real?

Look at the last couple of pages of the thread before this one. I defined "real" already.

Okay, I don't even need to prove this world is real. I only need to prove that it's "more" real than this "heaven", since you cannot see "heaven", nor can you feel it or anything. But you can see that this world exists. It may not be real as in that everything we see may not be what it actually appears to be, but at least we can see that this world has some element of reality in it, but there is absolutely no prove that "heaven" or "hell" can be real.

We believe that "knowing" that there is no god is arrogant and idiotic at best.
Now what constitutes as god rather it be buddha, Muhamed(sp) Jesus whatever, is up to an individual's beliefs. Too many things on this earth compliment each other too well for me to personally beleive that there is no god. I do not believe in god because I need a crutch to explain death or why my life is the way it is but I observe the world around me with great detail and I cannot fathom anything that could create this based purely on science.
The problem lies with religion being advertised as a product. The Catholics are bad about this one. I was raised a catholic but do not subscibe to thier ways of beleiving in god or practicing my religion. I think that an aitheist is one because they see what religion can do to people. It causes violence, ignorance, and above all else a superiority complex of differing religions. I have always wondered why all organized religions cannot just accept one another? why does christianity have to be better than Islam or Taoism etc etc
All that matters is that a person believes and above all else treats people, animals and thier environment with respect. Even if you do not believe in a god fine but do not claim that you know this that is not possible. Nor can you claim that you know that thier is a god for you cannot possibly know that for certain. Faith is what causes belief and that is good enough but as far as knowing scientifically? impossible. knowing in your heart totally possible

I agree, there is always a possibility that this "God" or "heaven" or "hell" exists (none of my posts say they don't exist, just that they do not seem to). However, there is a great chance that these things do not exist. Unless I can see some absolute proof I cannot say for sure if they exist or not, since I have said before - there's a chance for everything.

Okay, I don't even need to prove this world is real. I only need to prove that it's "more" real than this "heaven", since you cannot see "heaven", nor can you feel it or anything. But you can see that this world exists. It may not be real as in that everything we see may not be what it actually appears to be, but at least we can see that this world has some element of reality in it, but there is absolutely no prove that "heaven" or "hell" can be real.

Were you just not paying attention or something? Bah. Nevermind. I'll leave you to your illusions.

We Christianity had the theory of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinite force and an infinite mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. Making him an omni present and potent force.

We had the theory of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinite force and an infinite mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. Making him an omni present and potent force.

hmp i smell troll........

We had the theory of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinite force and an infinite mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. Making him an omni present and potent force.

Bottle raises interesting questions.
If God really exists, does he deserve our respect and our worship?
In the end, what has God done for us?

Hey, don't give bottle all the credit. I asked that too. >.<

I give my props to Humanism Manifesto. He seems learned enough, though he may have just copied and pasted his words like the religious posters did.

Noone did try and argue against his proof that Jesus isn't original. Though there isn't much you can argue against it.

I'd like to add to the list Pythagoras of the Pythagorean cult.
He could walk on water, had a virgin mother, ressurect the dead, come back to life, blah blah blah.

I feel sorry for you, cuz obviously you've been misled. "Religion" is a personal experience. Nobody can tell you "Hey, look! There's God!" - you have to feel it YOURSELF. Those political junkies who manipulate religion for their stupid and selfish gains should not be mixed with those who seek pure religion.

Which is why it's possible to have religion without a god.

Religion can be spiritual; a spiritual experience. After all, it's a belief system, which is what religion is.

hmp i smell troll........
Mmmm...roasting troll!!

A lot of scholars (and I share this belief) believe that Jesus's golden rule 'Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself' trump the Ten Commandments.

Ergo - Ghandi and all his non-chrisitan buddies are going to Heaven

I'd like to think that's true (and quite reasonable)

and thus one has no reason to be Christian...now do you see why the Churches don't like that idea? if you don't need them to reach heaven then why would you give them your money or sit through their speeches? all their power and wealth goes away if you actually listen to Jesus.

If you don't believe in God you're S.S.O.A.H.

If you don't believe in God you're S.S.O.A.H.

so smart others are helpless?

I used to be an atheist but then I realized that even logically atheism does not make sense. You can not prove that god exists but you can also not prove that he does not exist. You then spend so much time on an ideology that might not even be true. Seems pretty illogical to me. Then you might say "i can prove that all religions must be false because they have contradictions" That is not true because people do not truly understand religion. I will take Christianity for my example being Christian does not mean that you follow the bible. The bible was mostly written by man who happens to be very flawed. Being Christian means to follow the teachings of Christ. Christ taught that killing others is wrong and to love your enemy. The crusades were not based on Christianity but rather they were based on an insane ideal that a god would care about which group inhabited a certain area of land. It whent completely against the very base of the religion.


You cannot give me a reason why this does not complete sense and if you can I welcome you to try.

I used to be an atheist but then I realized that even logically atheism does not make sense. You can not prove that god exists but you can also not prove that he does not exist. You then spend so much time on an ideology that might not even be true. Seems pretty illogical to me. Then you might say "i can prove that all religions must be false because they have contradictions" That is not true because people do not truly understand religion. I will take Christianity for my example being Christian does not mean that you follow the bible. The bible was mostly written by man who happens to be very flawed. Being Christian means to follow the teachings of Christ. Christ taught that killing others is wrong and to love your enemy. The crusades were not based on Christianity but rather they were based on an insane ideal that a god would care about which group inhabited a certain area of land. It whent completely against the very base of the religion.


You cannot give me a reason why this does not complete sense and if you can I welcome you to try.

i would love to take up your challenge, but to be honest i couldn't understand what you were saying.

"Originally Posted by Pelican Pond
I used to be an atheist but then I realized that even logically atheism does not make sense. You can not prove that god exists but you can also not prove that he does not exist. You then spend so much time on an ideology that might not even be true. Seems pretty illogical to me."

Tell me, how does atheism make less sense than religion? You say atheists cannot prove that god exists yet we cant prove that he doesnt exist. Well... the same could be said for faeries, dragons, elves, and Frosty the snowman. You, I assume do not believe they exist yet however you cannot PROVE that they dont exist. I'm sure somebody somewhere in the world believes they exist, so do you lack sense because you do not believe in them? I ask you to truly thing about how you approach "logic"... in the future it might help you not look like an ass.


We spend so much time on an ideology that might not even be true? Cant the same thing be said for religion? you devote your whole life to a religious ideology that may not be true? You cannot prove that this god exists, so arnt you just as nonsensical as an atheist? please think before you say things.


"That is not true because people do not truly understand religion. I will take Christianity for my example being Christian does not mean that you follow the bible. The bible was mostly written by man who happens to be very flawed. Being Christian means to follow the teachings of Christ. Christ taught that killing others is wrong and to love your enemy. The crusades were not based on Christianity but rather they were based on an insane ideal that a god would care about which group inhabited a certain area of land. It whent completely against the very base of the religion.


You cannot give me a reason why this does not complete sense and if you can I welcome you to try. "


right... and that is why god is a warmonger in the old testament? Please... read the bible of your own religion.


and I cannot givew you a reason "why this does not complete sense" well first of all I'd have to ask you just what in the hell you are talking about as that statement is a little hard to decipher.

"I give my props to Humanism Manifesto. He seems learned enough, though he may have just copied and pasted his words like the religious posters did."

Certain things you have to take from another source and have that source available to show, otherwise no matter how accurate it is they will still challenge you on it. Most christians and other theists act like 8 year olds when encountering some evidence that goes against their beliefs. No matter how conrete the evidence is they pretty much just cover their ears, stomp their feet and shout "NO! NO! NO!"

. 'god is a god damn lie' is oxymoronic. :D
Or just plain Moronic.:)

the seven comandments

There are ten commandments ya dope.

At no point in time during my message did I write that I am a Christian. If you look at it from a completely logical view both religion and atheism do not make sense. You cannot prove either way that God exists or not. Thus being an atheist is just as much of a waste of time as being a member of a religion. In my statement I did say that the Bible is greatly flawed. How could a god be a warmonger? Lets think about it. A god would be infinite. It would have no needs no wants because it already is everything. It cannot be hurt. Why would something like that attack anything or be filled with anger? It does not make sense.

Please read my whole statement before you try to prove it wrong.

You know, there r some believers, n this is a free nation n all, but u know, it'd be nice if there'd be some kind of act to say that to offend someones belief be a crime. Yeah, there r the "good" atheists, yet, 1) I don't give a damn what u have to say bout our beliefs; mine is based upon the fact that it offended me on how GOD is a big hokey n all, but it'd be nice if u have some decency and respect, cuz this bullsh*t is intolerable; 2) It'd be nice to maybe educate urself on who/what GOD is and the principal of the Religions out there. To say that there's no GOD, well..........all tghat I can say is the fact that maybe u should c the side of the believers 1st before makin' some perverted, demonic statement on such fact. Not only does it offend me n manu others out there that DO beleive, but it sure as hell blasphemic! So, guess what: I don't care whether ur not ur an atheist or not, shut up, damn u!! U're the f*uckin' lie!!

Golly, this thread is really, um, an interesting exercise in comparative grammar.

I have no idea what half the people are saying.

Yes, I said it. Many may disagree with me, but down in every religions' core beliefs are sets of moral guidelines to help us better ourselves as a race. For example, in most major religions, it is a sin to kill. Extremists have taken the writings of the religions too literally and have twisted it into a mangled form of what is truly said and meant. Without religion, chaos would reign supreme. I'm not saying, however that any religion is true. It provides stability and hope, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You know, there r some believers, n this is a free nation n all, but u know, it'd be nice if there'd be some kind of act to say that to offend someones belief be a crime. Yeah, there r the "good" atheists, yet, 1) I don't give a damn what u have to say bout our beliefs; mine is based upon the fact that it offended me on how GOD is a big hokey n all, but it'd be nice if u have some decency and respect, cuz this bullsh*t is intolerable; 2) It'd be nice to maybe educate urself on who/what GOD is and the principal of the Religions out there. To say that there's no GOD, well..........all tghat I can say is the fact that maybe u should c the side of the believers 1st before makin' some perverted, demonic statement on such fact. Not only does it offend me n manu others out there that DO beleive, but it sure as hell blasphemic! So, guess what: I don't care whether ur not ur an atheist or not, shut up, damn u!! U're the f*uckin' lie!!

do you think God would be proud of your utter failure to grasp your language?

What would Jesus Do? LEARN TO FORM A SENTENCE.

Another version of Pascal's Wager eh? It sounds like you are happy with your choice of belief system. I'm glad.

OT: Why do you make specific note of your sexuality? Is it a very important fact that you think we should know? Just wondering.

I mentioned my sexuality because most christians are homophobes. There is nothing in the bible against homosexuality and the only part that had mentioned it was refering to the rape of the male angels, not consentual sex. Sorry if I offended you.

You know, there r some believers, n this is a free nation n all, but u know, it'd be nice if there'd be some kind of act to say that to offend someones belief be a crime. Yeah, there r the "good" atheists, yet, 1) I don't give a damn what u have to say bout our beliefs; mine is based upon the fact that it offended me on how GOD is a big hokey n all, but it'd be nice if u have some decency and respect, cuz this bullsh*t is intolerable; 2) It'd be nice to maybe educate urself on who/what GOD is and the principal of the Religions out there. To say that there's no GOD, well..........all tghat I can say is the fact that maybe u should c the side of the believers 1st before makin' some perverted, demonic statement on such fact. Not only does it offend me n manu others out there that DO beleive, but it sure as hell blasphemic! So, guess what: I don't care whether ur not ur an atheist or not, shut up, damn u!! U're the f*uckin' lie!!


Heh, Bottle did this one pretty good. However, I just want to add, that blasphemy is a lot of fun. A WHOLE lot of fun. Seriously, I want to a christian high school-DAMN if I didn't enjoy myself pissing others off :D

Heh, Bottle did this one pretty good. However, I just want to add, that blasphemy is a lot of fun. A WHOLE lot of fun. Seriously, I want to a christian high school-DAMN if I didn't enjoy myself pissing others off :D


blasphemy is bad mmmkay

Heh, Bottle did this one pretty good. However, I just want to add, that blasphemy is a lot of fun. A WHOLE lot of fun. Seriously, I want to a christian high school-DAMN if I didn't enjoy myself pissing others off :D

You disgust me. Religious folk constitute of 80% of the world's population. You blaspheme, you insult 80% of the world's population. What does it take to hammer a little respect into you? The fact that you don't believe in it doesn't give a single inch of a right to disrespect others.

You disgust me. Religious folk constitute of 80% of the world's population. You blaspheme, you insult 80% of the world's population. What does it take to hammer a little respect into you? The fact that you don't believe in it doesn't give a single inch of a right to disrespect others.


damn right, i'd smite his sassy butt if it weren't for dad's "free will" rule. he'll smoke a turd in hell come judgement day, that's for sure...

Of course it does. The thing is, a lot of people at school DIDN"T CARE. Know why? Because they knew I was full of shit! How can you take a guy seriously when he announces his plans to make a movie called "That Darn Jesus?" Or comes to school with a Jesus action figure and makes him stare at the teacher all through Theology (I also damned people to hell and blessed various notebooks ^_^)

In fact, people LOVED the Jesus action figure. Lighten up a little and take a joke :p

I wholeheartedly recommend that you look at Christianity instead of paganism, mainly because paganism is Satan worship in nearly its purest form, and when God wraps up this world and starts the next, you would be in deep s**t as a pagan (when the Bible uses the term "lake of fire and burning sulphur" to describe the place God assigns people to who do not choose to worship Him alone, it's not implying a fun party).
True Christianity is older than humanity itself, and much more authentic than anything else in history, 'cause God has always been God. I'm four years, four-and-a-half months in, and this is real life, life to the max, like the Pepsi ads say.
You have the choice; make it a good one.

People like you make me want to find religion an convert to Paganism just to piss you off.

http://www.activedistribution.org/images/badges/252.gif

I just think it's funny he quoted Pepsi in order to make his argument :p

Of course it does. The thing is, a lot of people at school DIDN"T CARE. Know why? Because they knew I was full of shit! How can you take a guy seriously when he announces his plans to make a movie called "That Darn Jesus?" Or comes to school with a Jesus action figure and makes him stare at the teacher all through Theology (I also damned people to hell and blessed various notebooks ^_^)

In fact, people LOVED the Jesus action figure. Lighten up a little and take a joke :p

well okay...


*takes goed off the turd smoking list, puts him back on the purgatory of spankings list*

I mean, Christ, if you saw the movie, You'd love it. Besides, don't You feel a bit honored that I used Your action figure to help make a whole school laugh and ease their sorrow? :p

I mean, Christ, if you saw the movie, You'd love it. Besides, don't You feel a bit honored that I used Your action figure to help make a whole school laugh and ease their sorrow? :p


well its gotta be better than the passion of christ, man its like watching a car accident in slow motion, and for me, its one that i was freakin' in...

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster



If you're going to argue a topic at least know that there are TEN commandments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mp5: :sniper: :headbang:

Of course it does. The thing is, a lot of people at school DIDN"T CARE. Know why? Because they knew I was full of shit! How can you take a guy seriously when he announces his plans to make a movie called "That Darn Jesus?" Or comes to school with a Jesus action figure and makes him stare at the teacher all through Theology (I also damned people to hell and blessed various notebooks ^_^)

In fact, people LOVED the Jesus action figure. Lighten up a little and take a joke :p

....well, i'm sure you didn't mean any offence...i mean...i hope... but then, there's how a feel, and i feel pretty strong about it...

You disgust me. Religious folk constitute of 80% of the world's population. You blaspheme, you insult 80% of the world's population. What does it take to hammer a little respect into you? The fact that you don't believe in it doesn't give a single inch of a right to disrespect others.

so now we have to tip-toe around everybody's imaginary friends? sorry pal, but if your God can't handle a little humor then he's a pathetic waste anyhow and you need to find a new hobby.

what about the fact that those 80% are insulting me everyday by their superstitious devotion? each time they praise God they are insulting my most fundamental values. so if respect is the key, then i think you all need to stop your worshipping right now. hell, even if you don't care about respecting ME, what about the fact that each religion is blaspheming according to the standards of the others? the Jews blaspheme each time they worship, according to the Christians, and the Christians do the same according to the Muslims, and the Muslims are insulting the Gods according to the Hindus...i guess, since disrespect must be avoided, you all need to stop worshipping RIGHT NOW.

either that, or you owe Goed an apology for your ridiculous and contradictory rant at him.

Ah, a belief in God (or Gods). Let us not forget Pascal's Wager:

A) If God(s) does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I was wrong in life, but I'm dead now, so what.
2) I do not believe. When I die I was right in life, but I'm dead now, so what.

B) If God does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, I'm dead now and must pay whatever consequences.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with my God (in Heaven etc).

Ah, a belief in God (or Gods). Let us not forget Pascal's Wager:

A) If God(s) does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I was wrong in life, but I'm dead now, so what.
2) I do not believe. When I die I was right in life, but I'm dead now, so what.

B) If God does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, I'm dead now and must pay whatever consequences.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with my God (in Heaven etc).

wow, you totally just posted that on another thread like 3 minutes ago. in that case i feel perfectly justified in cutting-and-pasting my other response to it, since you didn't bother to re-write...

you people always forget the rest of the wager (which, admittedly, Pascal forgot too):

if God does not exist:
1b) i lived a lie during the only life i will ever have, and failed to progress toward an understanding of the only existence i would ever know.
2b) i lived more fully and faced the reality of my life, and i lived in honesty with the world around me. i developed morality that did not require a supernatural parent-figure standing over me with a big stick, and i was good for the sake of decency rather than merely being good to get a reward or to avoid pissing off a figment of my own imagination.

if God does exist:
1b) since, statistically, it is likely that more than half of the believers chose the WRONG God to worship, i am better off than they are because at least i wasn't worshipping a false God. rather than gambling that my God is the right one, the way believers do, i respectfully decline to vote until i have more information. God recognizes my good sense and my use of the frontal cortex He gave me, and rewards me with the nicest room in heaven.
2b) if i lucked out and happened to believe in the right God, he immediately asks me why the hell i was so gullible and sends me back for another few lifetimes to learn better sense. okay, seriously, if i believed in the right God then that's super, and i do just as well as the atheists and agnostics. however, if i believed in the wrong God he is pissed as hell and sends me to burn or whatever because i was insulting him every time i prayed.

Ah, a belief in God (or Gods). Let us not forget Pascal's Wager:

A) If God(s) does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I was wrong in life, but I'm dead now, so what.
2) I do not believe. When I die I was right in life, but I'm dead now, so what.

B) If God does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, I'm dead now and must pay whatever consequences.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with my God (in Heaven etc).

No, let's forget it.

Or use a different version:

A) If The Great Pink Unicorn does not excist
1) I believe. I wasted my life believing in something that does not excist, and made a real fool out of myself.
2) I do not believe. I lived a happy life without fear of Her mighty hooves.
B) The Great Pink Unicorn does excist
1) I believe. So now I'm stuck in the afterlife with a big fucking pink unicorn. Hold the presses.
2) I do not believe. The Great Pink Unicorn tramples my soul into oblivion.


So, mr Robotech, do you believe or not?

No, let's forget it.

Or use a different version:

A) If The Great Pink Unicorn does not excist
1) I believe. I wasted my life believing in something that does not excist, and made a real fool out of myself.
2) I do not believe. I lived a happy life without fear of Her mighty hooves.
B) The Great Pink Unicorn does excist
1) I believe. So now I'm stuck in the afterlife with a big fucking pink unicorn. Hold the presses.
2) I do not believe. The Great Pink Unicorn tramples my soul into oblivion.


So, mr Robotech, do you believe or not?

silly, Pascal's wager only works with the CHRISTIAN God, remember? if you put in a different God then that makes Jesus cry.

silly, Pascal's wager only works with the CHRISTIAN God, remember? if you put in a different God then that makes Jesus cry.

It does? In that case...

A) If Anubis does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I get mummified and look silly for the rest of eternity.
2) I do not believe. I'm worm-food.

B) If Anubis does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, he feeds my soul to a big monster.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with Anubis. Anubis has a cute ass. Happy days indeed.

It does? In that case...

A) If Anubis does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I get mummified and look silly for the rest of eternity.
2) I do not believe. I'm worm-food.

B) If Anubis does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, he feeds my soul to a big monster.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with Anubis. Anubis has a cute ass. Happy days indeed.

*GASP* wait a minute, i just figured out that you might be MOCKING Pascal's Wager! But...but...if you don't accept Pascal's Wager then how can we possibly convince you to believe in our imaginary friend? appealing to your sense of self-interest is (as God Himself showed us) far more likely to work than trying to use logic or evidence, but if we can't even use human selfishness to make you believe in God then what do we have left?!

If you're going to argue a topic at least know that there are TEN commandments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mp5: :sniper: :headbang:


Ermm ... 613 .... not 10. :gundge:

so now we have to tip-toe around everybody's imaginary friends? sorry pal, but if your God can't handle a little humor then he's a pathetic waste anyhow and you need to find a new hobby.

what about the fact that those 80% are insulting me everyday by their superstitious devotion? each time they praise God they are insulting my most fundamental values. so if respect is the key, then i think you all need to stop your worshipping right now. hell, even if you don't care about respecting ME, what about the fact that each religion is blaspheming according to the standards of the others? the Jews blaspheme each time they worship, according to the Christians, and the Christians do the same according to the Muslims, and the Muslims are insulting the Gods according to the Hindus...i guess, since disrespect must be avoided, you all need to stop worshipping RIGHT NOW.

either that, or you owe Goed an apology for your ridiculous and contradictory rant at him.

dear bottle. do calm down. please. i hope you understand the difference.

worshipping a god is an inward gesture - you do stuff to yourself.

insulting a god is an outward gesture - you do stuff to other people.

fundamental difference there. you can choose not to watch us worship, because our worship is not intended for you to stop and gawk at. but posting something public on a online forum intended for an audience requires a degree of responsibility to the readers.

my views, your choice to agree or disagree. just don't be mad. please. =P

dear bottle. do calm down. please. i hope you understand the difference.

worshipping a god is an inward gesture - you do stuff to yourself.

insulting a god is an outward gesture - you do stuff to other people.

fundamental difference there. you can choose not to watch us worship, because our worship is not intended for you to stop and gawk at. but posting something public on a online forum intended for an audience requires a degree of responsibility to the readers.

my views, your choice to agree or disagree. just don't be mad. please. =P

i'm quite calm, what makes you think i am otherwise? are you intimidated by how easily i discard what passes for "arguments" around here? sorry, i don't believe in beating around the bush when people are wrong.

you must not have been reading my post before you replied, since i pointed out that all acts of worship, which are OUTWARD, are blasphemy to other faiths. the Jews regard your Christian doctrine as blasphemy, so repeating that doctrine in a church service or other religious setting is blaspheming their God.

you can choose not to listen to people who say your God is a pile of crap, especially if it's over the 'net; nobody makes you log on here, just like nobody forces me to go into a church. but if you are going to claim that people don't have the right to blaspheme at all, out of respect for other people, then you need to immediately apologize to every single person who doesn't belong to your faith, because you have publicly blasphemed in all their eyes whenever you have spoken aloud about your God. you also need to, from now on, never attend church or practice any outward display of faith whatsoever.

or you could be a hypocrite. which you seem quite comfortable with, i suppose.

i'm not mad, not in the slightest. i'm no more mad at you than i am to my little brother for having an imaginary friend. i think it's a little silly, and i think you need to grow out of it, but i don't much care in the long run. provided, of course, you don't expect me to apologize to your imaginary friend when you think i've stepped on his toes.

First up: Buddha.
1. Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."
2. Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples.
3. He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
4. He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
5. He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
6. Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.
7. He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
8. Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"
9. the "Carpenter"
10. He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03028b.htm
Section V. BUDDHISM AND CHRISTIANITY

Next up we have the lovely pagan god: Horus
1. Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
2. He had 12 disciples.
3. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
4. He walked on water.
5. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
6. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
7. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish
8. Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho2.html
Look for the section on Horus

Next we have: Mithra The Sungod of persia. The story of mithra was around atleast 500 years before christianity, Shortly before the rise of christianity The cult of mithra was the most widespread and popular pagan religion of the time.
1. Mithra was born on December 25th.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. He performed miracles.
5. He was buried in a tomb.
6. After three days he rose again.
7. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
8. Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
9. He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
10. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
11. Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
Section 'RELATION TO CHRISTIANITY'

Next we have : Krishna of Hinduism
1. Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki
2. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
3. He worked miracles and wonders.
4. He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind
5. In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
6. He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven
7. Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
8. He is the second person of the Trinity, and claimed to be the way to the father.
9. His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
10. Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02730a.htm
Section V. EARLY HINDUISM, especially the last paragraph

I'm still working on Prometheus and Phythagoras.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03028b.htm
Section V. BUDDHISM AND CHRISTIANITY



http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho2.html
Look for the section on Horus



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
Section 'RELATION TO CHRISTIANITY'



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02730a.htm
Section V. EARLY HINDUISM, especially the last paragraph

I'm still working on Prometheus and Phythagoras.


okay now, i'm not buddha or mithrus or krishna. i've got pictures of us all hangin out together in a thai restaurante in 89 mmmkay.... as to the horus thing, well that gets a bit more complicated.

you must not have been reading my post before you replied, since i pointed out that all acts of worship, which are OUTWARD, are blasphemy to other faiths.

That's an unfair generalization. An "act of worship" can be anything from stopping a moment to admire a particularly beautiful sunset to volunteering at a soup kitchen or being a reading mentor for a child. You assume that all acts of worship require loud prayer, self-flaggelation and some sort of amazingingly aggressive imposition of one's belief on others and that is simply not true. The strongest testiment has always been through actions, not words, and the strongest actions are not those crying out how good your faith is but doing things that make the world a better place. So whenever I go to the park and play with my dog, or go out with friends, or work with a group to build housing for homeless families or go to an anti-war protest then I am offering the most sincere form of outward worship possible, even though I don't scream out my beliefs and I don't see how any of those activities are "blasphemous" to any other tradition.

I begin to wonder, Bottle, if the problem is that you've just had the misfortune to meet very bad religious people.


the Jews regard your Christian doctrine as blasphemy, so repeating that doctrine in a church service or other religious setting is blaspheming their God.

Well, I suppose this is true enough.


you can choose not to listen to people who say your God is a pile of crap, especially if it's over the 'net; nobody makes you log on here, just like nobody forces me to go into a church. but if you are going to claim that people don't have the right to blaspheme at all, out of respect for other people, then you need to immediately apologize to every single person who doesn't belong to your faith, because you have publicly blasphemed in all their eyes whenever you have spoken aloud about your God.

This is also true, to a point. There is a certain amount of personal responsibility here. While you certain have the right to say whatever you want to about any topic (other than, of course, those that might get you nailed under PATRIOT, which does cut the number down quite significantly), that freedom comes with the inherant responsibility of self-editing. Does what you're saying needlessly offend people and is that your goal or are you trying to be persuasive or are you possibly willing to assume that someone else who's been on this planet as long as you, had as much life experience as you and is just as smart as you might have a different point of view worth listening to rather than snidely dismissing out of hand? If your goal is to needlessly offend, well, that's also your right, but don't be surprised when no one takes you seriously. If your goal is to be persuasive, then it's never a good idea to be offensive. If your goal is to learn something, then again, offense is probably a bad way to go.


you also need to, from now on, never attend church or practice any outward display of faith whatsoever.

Again, no, not true.


or you could be a hypocrite. which you seem quite comfortable with, i suppose.

Ouch.


i'm not mad, not in the slightest. i'm no more mad at you than i am to my little brother for having an imaginary friend. i think it's a little silly, and i think you need to grow out of it, but i don't much care in the long run.

And yet you're always posting on these threads, telling us exactly how much you don't care. Don't get me wrong, I always enjoy reading your posts, but I do find it odd.


provided, of course, you don't expect me to apologize to your imaginary friend when you think i've stepped on his toes.

I'm not even sure my "imaginary friend" has toes.

I could make a very strong case for the choice to deny the existence of a God or Gods.

I could make an unbeatable case for the choice to accept the existence of a God or Gods.

Sadly, I am non-religious, so for all of my philosophizing, I deny the obviously better argument because I am a hopeless skeptic.

--Ross Wolfe

That's an unfair generalization. An "act of worship" can be anything from stopping a moment to admire a particularly beautiful sunset to volunteering at a soup kitchen or being a reading mentor for a child. You assume that all acts of worship require loud prayer, self-flaggelation and some sort of amazingingly aggressive imposition of one's belief on others and that is simply not true. The strongest testiment has always been through actions, not words, and the strongest actions are not those crying out how good your faith is but doing things that make the world a better place. So whenever I go to the park and play with my dog, or go out with friends, or work with a group to build housing for homeless families or go to an anti-war protest then I am offering the most sincere form of outward worship possible, even though I don't scream out my beliefs and I don't see how any of those activities are "blasphemous" to any other tradition.

I begin to wonder, Bottle, if the problem is that you've just had the misfortune to meet very bad religious people.



Well, I suppose this is true enough.



This is also true, to a point. There is a certain amount of personal responsibility here. While you certain have the right to say whatever you want to about any topic (other than, of course, those that might get you nailed under PATRIOT, which does cut the number down quite significantly), that freedom comes with the inherant responsibility of self-editing. Does what you're saying needlessly offend people and is that your goal or are you trying to be persuasive or are you possibly willing to assume that someone else who's been on this planet as long as you, had as much life experience as you and is just as smart as you might have a different point of view worth listening to rather than snidely dismissing out of hand? If your goal is to needlessly offend, well, that's also your right, but don't be surprised when no one takes you seriously. If your goal is to be persuasive, then it's never a good idea to be offensive. If your goal is to learn something, then again, offense is probably a bad way to go.



Again, no, not true.



Ouch.



And yet you're always posting on these threads, telling us exactly how much you don't care. Don't get me wrong, I always enjoy reading your posts, but I do find it odd.



I'm not even sure my "imaginary friend" has toes.

i regard "acts of worship" as acts that directly pertain to the God or gods of a faith, in the context we were discussing here. sorry if that wasn't clear. if you are blessing or asking for blessings from some diety, and that diety does not conform to the God model of another faith, then you pretty much always are blaspheming their God...that's usually written into the definitions.

i have met many bad religious people, true, but they usually aren't the ones that bother me. what gets to me is when otherwise amazing people are sunk in the mire of superstition and myth that religious upbringing or emotional devestation can create. if a stupid, worthless person is religious then i can just laugh at them in general and let them brighten my day with the knowledge that that's one less person i will ever have to compete with. but if a great person becomes addicted to faith then that is sad and frustrating to me, the way most people feel if a great mind becomes addicted to drugs.

as for me not caring about RELIGION, that's where you are confused. i don't give a crap what one chump in particular thinks about God, and Dragon's Bay and all his ilk are welcome to make up whatever fairy tales they please and it won't change my life one bit. however, these threads are interesting and important to me because the phenomenon of religious addiction is fascinating and morbidly amusing. also, i find that a great many people are simply religious out of ignorance of their options, and it pleases me to present them with alternative points of view that can broaden their world. i also must admit a certain smug satisfaction is derived from trouncing the illogical claims one often finds from the more brainless believers, but that is fairly rare around here (thankfully), and i more often must content myself with the more subtle joy of crossing swords with sharper theologians...a challenge which is pleasurable as well.

as for learning, offending, and freedom of speech: i don't generally insult people or beliefs, though i do make fun of both frequently. i do this to my best friends as well as my worst enemies, and the fact that i mock something doesn't necessarily mean i disagree with it or dislike it. in my opinion, you can tell how strong and worthy a belief is by how many of its followers are able to laugh at it and themselves when presented with genuine humor on the subject.

if Dragon's Bay is offended by my taking his Lord's name in vain then he can choose not to read my posts...i am offended by his claims that i was created by his imaginary friend, yet i don't pout and stomp my foot and tell him to quit being a big meanie-head because he is hurting my feelings. i explain why i think he is wrong, and try to make entertaining points about how silly his views appear to me, in an effort to educate him in the ways of the rabid agnostic. if he is bored or uninterested or offended he may feel free to ignore me. won't be the first time.

well



























there is no god- that is correct, but however, if peaple didnt beleave, the world would not be as violent as you say,

that is where i disagree.

BUt also, all those peaple who just blaytently iregard what the unholy one, had to say.

and are so ignorant, and assholes, they just bully the unholy one for spelling mastakes, and that like makes him less than thou, there high supreme selves.

who will disregard what ever the unholy one says because he disagrees with them.

you just need to accept that others are equal to you in a intellectual disscussion, and read, and respect what he has to say in the same as it was someone with your own beliefs.

Do you not agree with the information provided? Because the information about simular religious figures is true. If you disagree with it then please point out why and what evidence you have for it being wrong.


"Saying that I don't know, but that I have faith, is redundant. All that we call knowledge is based on a great number of unproven beliefs, such as the belief that our senses give us accurate information, the belief that our minds are capable of processing that information logically, the belief that our memories are accurate representations of our past. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. All knowledge is faith-based, as is my knowledge of God."

Not really. Science is based on tests, experiments, and evidence. It is constantly evolving, constantly improving. Expanding on itself. Science is not really faith based, atleast not in my opinion. However I suppose I can understand how you could conclude that. I, however do not consider anything that can be observed in the naturual world to have anything to do with faith.



Sorry for the delay.

I did look more in depth at the links you provided, and the stuff at www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm was quite convincing, but since then I read the article at www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html (already referred to in a post).
This fairly comprehensively refutes the theory you were putting forward, at least, I think it does. I can't go into all the detail (which is why I posted the link), but the gist is that a lot of the similarities you quote are either so generically common to religious language and thought as to be irrelevant to a "borrowing" theory, or are deliberately distorted to make the copycat case stronger. Please look for yourself, in case I've misrepresented the author.

I don't think you understand my knowledge/faith point. The very scientific method itself is based on a great number of assumptions/beliefs/axioms/givens, as are any methods of refining the scientific method; therefore, I conclude, science is based on faith in the validity of the scientific method. I accept that you may not want to use the word "faith" in this context, so our difference on this point may be semantic.

It has been my experience that anyone who rails against a particular religion with such fervor as so many demonstrate have something personal against it. I don't particularly agree with any religions (though I do have very Christian parents), but I have never felt the need to yell at or threaten pagans for doing the ceremonial Wakka Wakka Dance, unless it is because they are doing the ceremonial Wakka Wakka Dance on my yard. Similarly, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, and the Holy Worshippers of the Eternally Burning Potatoe Salad That Joe Brought to the Picnic can all do as they please, without me pointing out that worshipping Potatoe Salad is a rather silly thing to do at picnics.

Further, and in honor of my Protestant mother, the concept of a god condeming those who chose not to worship him to the flaming hell pits is not being a bully. Its rather like a man who owns an apartment building. Now he rents out to any and all comers, allowing anyone who wants into his apartments to enjoy themselves. However, the people who come are, for the most part, colossal jerks. They yell, fight, and disrupt. Some of them even turn their noses up at the landlord and curse him. The landlord, however, is an eternal idealist. He repeatedly steps in, sorts out disputes, cleans up the mess, and fixes the fridge. He sacrifices all he can to make life nice, regrettably, this doesn't make him any more popular. After the 500th tennent pours several months worth of his own urine down the stairs and then laughs about it, the man decides to create a smaller, better apartment complex. This complex, he decides, will be better than the first one. It will have bigger rooms, nicer furniture, a nice little park/playground, free gardening service, and an eternally open chinese restaurant. Further, this new place will only have the "good" tenents. The people who appreciated the landlord, the people who tried to cooperate and get along, will all get to go to the new place. However, those who refused him will be left behind in the old place. Without the nice landlord or any of the nice people, the jerks are left to wallow in their own filth and misery.

Alternately, if God exists, then it is his world and we are only squatters, and there is no reason for him to be nice to those people who who broke his toys while visiting his house.

But what would I know, I'm just a stupid white man who has yet to see the true and all embracing glory that is worshipping nature and earth spirits.

i like this version of pascal's wager better.

vishnu, brahmin and shiva do not exist
1. i don't believe: i die and i'm dead.
2. i believe: i die and i'm dead

vishnu, brahmin and shiva do exist
1. i don't believe: i die and i'm reincarnated based on how i acted in my life
2. i believe: i die and i'm reincarnated based on how i acted in my life.

Further, and in honor of my Protestant mother, the concept of a god condeming those who chose not to worship him to the flaming hell pits is not being a bully. Its rather like a man who owns an apartment building. Now he rents out to any and all comers, allowing anyone who wants into his apartments to enjoy themselves. However, the people who come are, for the most part, colossal jerks. They yell, fight, and disrupt. Some of them even turn their noses up at the landlord and curse him. The landlord, however, is an eternal idealist. He repeatedly steps in, sorts out disputes, cleans up the mess, and fixes the fridge. He sacrifices all he can to make life nice, regrettably, this doesn't make him any more popular. After the 500th tennent pours several months worth of his own urine down the stairs and then laughs about it, the man decides to create a smaller, better apartment complex. This complex, he decides, will be better than the first one. It will have bigger rooms, nicer furniture, a nice little park/playground, free gardening service, and an eternally open chinese restaurant. Further, this new place will only have the "good" tenents. The people who appreciated the landlord, the people who tried to cooperate and get along, will all get to go to the new place. However, those who refused him will be left behind in the old place. Without the nice landlord or any of the nice people, the jerks are left to wallow in their own filth and misery.

Alternately, if God exists, then it is his world and we are only squatters, and there is no reason for him to be nice to those people who who broke his toys while visiting his house.


that's an interesting analogy, but what about the people who don't know there is a landlord to begin with and don't mean to be jerks? it doesn't seem fair that if a landlord never presents himself and leaves you to fix your own problems, you should have to assume that one exists lest you be condemned to a crappy building forever...

*shrugs* i dunno.

God says do what you wish, but make the wrong choice and you will be tortured for eternity in hell. That is not free will. It would be akin to a man telling his girlfriend, do what you wish, but if you choose to leave me, I will track you down and blow your brains out. When a man says this we call him a psychopath and cry out for his imprisonment/execution. When god says the same we call him "loving" and build churches in his honor.

It is more like a government passing a law that says you cannot kill someone else or whatever is it they say. You are free to do as you wish but there are certain things that are considered wrong and if you do those things you pay the consequence.

It is more like a government passing a law that says you cannot kill someone else or whatever is it they say. You are free to do as you wish but there are certain things that are considered wrong and if you do those things you pay the consequence.
yes, and that consequence is to be tortured for all eternity, with no hope of reprieve. any government that practiced that sort of thing would be considered guilty of crimes against humanity...yet God is "loving."

yes, and that consequence is to be tortured for all eternity, with no hope of reprieve. any government that practiced that sort of thing would be considered guilty of crimes against humanity...yet God is "loving."
your confusing God with braindead religious dogma

I believe in a higher power however I live each day as if this is all I have. I believe in looking towards an afterlife, but to not regret it if it does not exist

Religion is a moral compass to help guide us to lead a good life. But religion is often abused and twisted in such a way to forward an agenda-- take radical islam for example.

What if I say Hitler was a lie and he never existed?
we have videos and pictures of hitler. Where is the video of Godaddressing his loyal subjects.

we have videos and pictures of hitler. Where is the video of Godaddressing his loyal subjects.
Hmn... That is so true...

Hmn... That is so true...
just because you cant see something physically doesnt mean it doesnt exist-can you see emotions?

Unholyone all I have to say is that you Speak the truth.

just because you cant see something physically doesnt mean it doesnt exist-can you see emotions?
Yes, but you feel emotions, that's the thing...

Hello everyone, 1st things 1st religion is complete bull s*** if you can't see that then you are S.S.O.A.H (scared, stupid or a hippy). Many of you are now proberly saying "but Antwon how can you be sure God doesnt exsist, i mean you can't know for sure" and my answer is.........SHUT THE HELL UP DUMB ASS I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK! (this means i dont care what your beliefs are either you believe my idea or you dont)

I know that God doesnt exsist and i know why people have been made to believe he does.

I'll start with why he has been made up. The reason is very simple it is............control, control over us, the people. We have been made to belive there is some greater force out there to keep us at bay so we don't rebel. Think about it we have been made to believe there is some greater force in this world because if we didnt we would have already blown up the world. They create some power (God) and make people belive if you disobey him you'll be punished. In this they create comandments on how we should live are lives (the seven comandments) if we believed there is nothing to stop us in doing waht we want (which is more then likely the truth) then people would make earth a hell hole. The woman would just be something the man uses for... well you know and basically everything would die.

I see God as a clever lie to keep us at bay and make sure we dont destroy everything.

with all that said i've coverd both of the topics 1 taht God is a lie and the other that i have a bit more IQ then a hamster

Kind of a crude post, but you're correct.

If you don't care what we think, why should we care what you think?

No you don't. Give me indisputable evidence that says that there can not be a god, as in someone dying and comming back to life and saying there was nothing on the other side. That said, there is no way to prove God or no God until you die. No one knows.


It's up to you, the claimant, to prove that something exists. I could claim that the core of the earth is delicious nougat, but you would say "prove it, moron."

So, prove it.

You seem very sure that god doesn't exist.

I'm not saying it does, but how would you know?

In this vast universe of ours, who's to say that there aren't beings out there who could be called gods? Something like, say, Q in "Star Trek," or the Goa'uld in Stargate?

THIS my fellow browsers, is what I call a blatent miss-use of the right
of free speech. (Yes, I am a conservative).

Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Come on guys, the poster of this article may be an idiot in your view, but who
are you to judge? Even if the entire world got together and voted him to be
"Wrong" it would still just be an oppinion, which although we are free to have,
we have NO right to impose this upon others, be there no law agaist doing
doing so such a thing, we should be able to use our initiative for this topic and all
other post's folllowing it, to understand and discuss rather than to
just read and oppose.

just because you cant see something physically doesnt mean it doesnt exist-can you see emotions?

I can not see, hear, feel, taste or smell God, nor can I see, hear, feel, taste or smell any of His effects on me.

I can not see, hear, feel, taste or smell God, nor can I see, hear, feel, taste or smell any of His effects on me.


So then...

What evidence do you have, that would convince me to believe in something that you cannot prove did...does..or ever will exist?

So then...

What evidence do you have, that would convince me to believe in something that you cannot prove did...does..or ever will exist?

You're barking up the wrong tree buddy. ;)

(I'd say preaching to the choir, but that'd be unfitting)

You're barking up the wrong tree buddy. ;)

(I'd say preaching to the choir, but that'd be unfitting)


I dig.

Athiesim just makes more sense.

I dig.

Athiesim just makes more sense.

Well personally I'm agnostic, but hey.

Well personally I'm agnostic, but hey.

In a way...Agnosticism makes even more sense than Athiesism.

...almost.

So then...

What evidence do you have, that would convince me to believe in something that you cannot prove did...does..or ever will exist?
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20.

you're one prayer away from God. if you don't believe, you don't believe. nobody can show you anything or do anything to you to make you believe. asking others to show you the evidence of God is impossible and pathetic, because religion is subjective and can only be experienced personally.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20.

you're one prayer away from God. if you don't believe, you don't believe. nobody can show you anything or do anything to you to make you believe. asking others to show you the evidence of God is impossible and pathetic, because religion is subjective and can only be experienced personally.


Think of what your asking.....

Your asking people to give their very souls,.
Your asking people to trust so much in "god" that they are entrusting thier immortal afterlife..

...to something that cannot be proven to exist.


Doesnt this defy logic?

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20.

you're one prayer away from God. if you don't believe, you don't believe. nobody can show you anything or do anything to you to make you believe. asking others to show you the evidence of God is impossible and pathetic, because religion is subjective and can only be experienced personally.

Bullshit. If a single prayer was all that was required to believe in God, I'd have been religious years ago.
And please, don't start claiming that I don't really want to believe, or that I'm denying His excistence, or that my heart is full of sin. Because you'd be wrong.

Bullshit. If a single prayer was all that was required to believe in God, I'd have been religious years ago.
And please, don't start claiming that I don't really want to believe, or that I'm denying His excistence, or that my heart is full of sin. Because you'd be wrong.

oh? up to you. it's your life you're living.