NationStates Jolt Archive

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?I'm not ignorant at all. You're saying that I'm ignorant simply because I don't have the same point of view as you. And I have an actual answer: The Bible says God put Adam here before any other men, and I have no reason not to believe that.

Just to make a point...

We are thinking about thing in our minds....and only the things that we can comprehend and understand (abviously) Whos to say that this division didn't happen supernaturally? I remember a passage that says Gods ways are not our ways....etc etc etc. We don't know everything....God can do thing we've never think of ever....so who is to say he didn't move everyone where he wanted them..... point is...we don't know.Then say that? I would have accepted that as an answer too, ya know.

lol....I think I just did.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?Ignorance of what? Philosophy? Theory? So he made a choice.. and it's not the same as yours... that makes him ignorant?



Not the fact his belief is different, simply his answer shows ignorance.
'because its in the bible'

the bible says the earth is supported on seven pillars, this does not make it true.

who changed the title of the thread?

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?I'm not ignorant at all. You're saying that I'm ignorant simply because I don't have the same point of view as you. And I have an actual answer: The Bible says God put Adam here before any other men, and I have no reason not to believe that.


Circular Reasoning.

Christians: OK, PLEASE tell me you guys are still out there!

Now, we all know the Bible isn't exactly the most correctly translated/written book on the face of the Earth... but in another thread, a point came up that many Christians don't take the Bible Seriously, Literally, as Fact, or as Truth.

All I have to say is... WHAT?!

I mean, In the last 24 hours... i've heard, from so-called Christians, 'There was no flood,' 'God didn't create the Earth in 7 "days",' defense of how the Theory of Evolution could have Diety ties, and all this crap.

Whatever happened to Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Or have you guys stopped taking that book seriously as well? How long will it be until you guys start considering that Christ was never resurrected, and start thinking he was an Alien or something?!

You guys are nuts. You can't 'pick and choose' when it comes to religion. It's kinda an all-or-none type of thing.

PLEASE tell me there are people who still believe that the Bible is, for the most part, the Word of God, and not just a collection of myth and legend and exaggerated tales.

Anyone? Anyone?

Yes I'm sure you hear lots of things. I heard about it being in turkey.
But I dont really care. How does it account for Animals being outside of the Eurasian Landmass?

(Skillfull guiding the thread back on topic, Happy now CC? :D )

last I checked animals can move tooWait whats this thread about?

This is why the original topic was addressed to CHRISTIANS, who already ASSUMED the Bible to be true.

and as i keep saying, i was raised a mainstream protestant. a lutheran to be precise (my old church actually gave me a thousand dollar scholarship each year while i was in college - volunteering really does pay off). and we did not take the bible to always be literally true, at least not as a matter of dogma. which is exactly why the idea that amerindians came to america between 30 and 15 thousand years ago by crossing the beringia land bridge is a perfectly reasonable christian explanation. the fact that it is also true just improves the deal.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?Ignorance of what? Philosophy? Theory? So he made a choice.. and it's not the same as yours... that makes him ignorant?



Not the fact his belief is different, simply his answer shows ignorance.
'because its in the bible'

the bible says the earth is supported on seven pillars, this does not make it true.How does it show ignorance? I have good reason not to believe that the Earth is supported by seven pillars, but I have no reason not to believe that Adam existed.

Not the fact his belief is different, simply his answer shows ignorance.
'because its in the bible'

the bible says the earth is supported on seven pillars, this does not make it true.Where the heck does it ever say the Earth is literally supported on 7 pillars?!

Christians: OK, PLEASE tell me you guys are still out there!

Now, we all know the Bible isn't exactly the most correctly translated/written book on the face of the Earth... but in another thread, a point came up that many Christians don't take the Bible Seriously, Literally, as Fact, or as Truth.

All I have to say is... WHAT?!

I mean, In the last 24 hours... i've heard, from so-called Christians, 'There was no flood,' 'God didn't create the Earth in 7 "days",' defense of how the Theory of Evolution could have Diety ties, and all this crap.

Whatever happened to Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Or have you guys stopped taking that book seriously as well? How long will it be until you guys start considering that Christ was never resurrected, and start thinking he was an Alien or something?!

You guys are nuts. You can't 'pick and choose' when it comes to religion. It's kinda an all-or-none type of thing.

PLEASE tell me there are people who still believe that the Bible is, for the most part, the Word of God, and not just a collection of myth and legend and exaggerated tales.

Anyone? Anyone?

Raysia...I really dont like you...but Im going to do you a favor...

Posting a quote from a locked thread like that will get you deleted..its happened to many other......if you dont want to get deleted..and likely ip banned as its your second offense..you better remove that.

BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?Ignorance of what? Philosophy? Theory? So he made a choice.. and it's not the same as yours... that makes him ignorant?



Not the fact his belief is different, simply his answer shows ignorance.
'because its in the bible'

the bible says the earth is supported on seven pillars, this does not make it true.How does it show ignorance? I have good reason not to believe that the Earth is supported by seven pillars, but I have no reason not to believe that Adam existed.


ah, so earth is not supported on seven pillars?
that makes the answer 'Its written in the bible' void.

Christians: OK, PLEASE tell me you guys are still out there!

Now, we all know the Bible isn't exactly the most correctly translated/written book on the face of the Earth... but in another thread, a point came up that many Christians don't take the Bible Seriously, Literally, as Fact, or as Truth.

All I have to say is... WHAT?!

I mean, In the last 24 hours... i've heard, from so-called Christians, 'There was no flood,' 'God didn't create the Earth in 7 "days",' defense of how the Theory of Evolution could have Diety ties, and all this crap.

Whatever happened to Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Or have you guys stopped taking that book seriously as well? How long will it be until you guys start considering that Christ was never resurrected, and start thinking he was an Alien or something?!

You guys are nuts. You can't 'pick and choose' when it comes to religion. It's kinda an all-or-none type of thing.

PLEASE tell me there are people who still believe that the Bible is, for the most part, the Word of God, and not just a collection of myth and legend and exaggerated tales.

Anyone? Anyone?

Raysia...I really dont like you...but Im going to do you a favor...

Posting a quote from a locked thread like that will get you deleted..its happened to many other......if you dont want to get deleted..and likely ip banned as its your second offense..you better remove that.They delete people for quoting harmless things from locked threads? That's ridiculous. What kind of a forum is this?

Christians: OK, PLEASE tell me you guys are still out there!

Now, we all know the Bible isn't exactly the most correctly translated/written book on the face of the Earth... but in another thread, a point came up that many Christians don't take the Bible Seriously, Literally, as Fact, or as Truth.

All I have to say is... WHAT?!

I mean, In the last 24 hours... i've heard, from so-called Christians, 'There was no flood,' 'God didn't create the Earth in 7 "days",' defense of how the Theory of Evolution could have Diety ties, and all this crap.

Whatever happened to Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Or have you guys stopped taking that book seriously as well? How long will it be until you guys start considering that Christ was never resurrected, and start thinking he was an Alien or something?!

You guys are nuts. You can't 'pick and choose' when it comes to religion. It's kinda an all-or-none type of thing.

PLEASE tell me there are people who still believe that the Bible is, for the most part, the Word of God, and not just a collection of myth and legend and exaggerated tales.

Anyone? Anyone?

Raysia...I really dont like you...but Im going to do you a favor...

Posting a quote from a locked thread like that will get you deleted..its happened to many other......if you dont want to get deleted..and likely ip banned as its your second offense..you better remove that.Steph specifically said I already had a thread about this... she implied that I should have this discussion in this thread.

So i am... I'm doing exactly what she said.

The bible has a lot of good advice in it and it was felt that if one were to say that the bible wasnt true, then the advice, and thus christianity wouldnt be valid. Which is why Churches push the point that it is literall.

BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

Look..I can give you dozens of actual reasons why that stuff happens.
The truth is that you wont like any of the answers that I give you..and you wont actually listen..so..whats the point?

[quote:bd31ed66cf="BackwoodsSquatches"]
Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?Ignorance of what? Philosophy? Theory? So he made a choice.. and it's not the same as yours... that makes him ignorant?



Not the fact his belief is different, simply his answer shows ignorance.
'because its in the bible'

the bible says the earth is supported on seven pillars, this does not make it true.How does it show ignorance? I have good reason not to believe that the Earth is supported by seven pillars, but I have no reason not to believe that Adam existed.


ah, so earth is not supported on seven pillars?
that makes the answer 'Its written in the bible' void.[/quote:bd31ed66cf]No it doesn't. There is nothing to contradict the fact that Adam was the first man. There is a lot to contradict that there aren't any pillars.

Christians: OK, PLEASE tell me you guys are still out there!

Now, we all know the Bible isn't exactly the most correctly translated/written book on the face of the Earth... but in another thread, a point came up that many Christians don't take the Bible Seriously, Literally, as Fact, or as Truth.

All I have to say is... WHAT?!

I mean, In the last 24 hours... i've heard, from so-called Christians, 'There was no flood,' 'God didn't create the Earth in 7 "days",' defense of how the Theory of Evolution could have Diety ties, and all this crap.

Whatever happened to Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Or have you guys stopped taking that book seriously as well? How long will it be until you guys start considering that Christ was never resurrected, and start thinking he was an Alien or something?!

You guys are nuts. You can't 'pick and choose' when it comes to religion. It's kinda an all-or-none type of thing.

PLEASE tell me there are people who still believe that the Bible is, for the most part, the Word of God, and not just a collection of myth and legend and exaggerated tales.

Anyone? Anyone?

Raysia...I really dont like you...but Im going to do you a favor...

Posting a quote from a locked thread like that will get you deleted..its happened to many other......if you dont want to get deleted..and likely ip banned as its your second offense..you better remove that.Steph specifically said I already had a thread about this... she implied that I should have this discussion in this thread.

So i am... I'm doing exactly what she said.

Eh..ok...do as thou wilt.

[quote=Sozo]BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...Uh, what church do you go to, and where?

It says in the bible adamn was 1st man.
its says in the bible the 7 pillars thing.

'because it was written in the bible' cannot be a valid answer, if one of those statements, is in fact, false.

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

there is the litte fact that people in every single religion ever to exist experience similar things.

Umm... hello... where does it say anything about any seven pillars? i must have missed that...

Uh, what church do you go to, and where?

sounds like one of the more colorful heretical ones to me.

BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

Look..I can give you dozens of actual reasons why that stuff happens.
The truth is that you wont like any of the answers that I give you..and you wont actually listen..so..whats the point?

am asking aren't I? Please tell me...if not here then my tele. I would really like to know your answers as to how this stuff can happen. How I cam pray for someone lay hands on them and they are healed. Or lets see...how my pastor can have surgery and have His Gallbladder taken out...only to have it put back in several months later by God. MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED. Or how I can speak in tongues....please tell me.

Umm... hello... where does it say anything about any seven pillars? i must have missed that...

it says it, i don't have my copy here, so i cant find the exact place for you.

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

there is the litte fact that people in every single religion ever to exist experience similar things.

Its called :
Mass suggestion.

[quote=Sozo]BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...Uh, what church do you go to, and where?

It is in Florida unless you are close and willing to go...what is the point except to diss what I believe

Umm... hello... where does it say anything about any seven pillars? i must have missed that...

it says it, i don't have my copy here, so i cant find the exact place for you.Really? it says it? I can't seem to find it anywhere... I did several different keyword searches for "seven" "Pillars"

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

there is the litte fact that people in every single religion ever to exist experience similar things.

Its called :
Mass suggestion.

Mass suggestion.. so that is how I can Speak in Tongues...funny I don't think that is what happened in the Book of Acts..but ok...

BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

Yeah. LOL WTF?!?!11 No speaka de english eh?

after I stop feeling amused I will answer/

It says in the bible adamn was 1st man.
its says in the bible the 7 pillars thing.

'because it was written in the bible' cannot be a valid answer, if one of those statements, is in fact, false.Red herring. You're trying to dodge the original subject. This is about whether or not Adam was the first man. I believe he was. Whether or not everything in the Bible is literally true has nothing to do with it.

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

Umm... hello... where does it say anything about any seven pillars? i must have missed that...

it says it, i don't have my copy here, so i cant find the exact place for you.Really? it says it? I can't seem to find it anywhere... I did several different keyword searches for "seven" "Pillars"

possibly the word pillars was not used, there are many synonyms for pillars. i just like pillars as a word.

I don't know if you have discussed this about indians arriving in boats to North America, but I think Thor Heyerdal really did follow up Kontiki. And how do you explain the people in the Pacific like melanisians and mikronesians if they didn't come by boat? Doesn't seem quite likely that there was an ice-age there...

BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

Yeah. LOL WTF?!?!11 No speaka de english eh?

after I stop feeling amused I will answer/

Apparently you haven't read into the book of Acts....or Corithians....Jude talks about it too....I could keep going but....I see no point..

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.

I don't know if you have discussed this about indians arriving in boats to North America, but I think Thor Heyerdal really did follow up Kontiki. And how do you explain the people in the Pacific like melanisians and mikronesians if they didn't come by boat? Doesn't seem quite likely that there was an ice-age there...I don't know, but everyone here has been saying "They came on boats? How stupid can you be?"

Cuz you know, they didn't have the tech to build ocean-faring boats then... they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days.... but no,, they couldn't build any ships to take them to america :P

BS, and NA answer me this...

If God is not real and the stuff in the Bible isn't real then explain to me how I can experience the stuff in talks about. I mean if God isn't real, then was is the likely explanation for the stuff that happens lets say in my church....were people are healed of sickness.....or explain how I can speak in tongues...something that happens in the Bible. Explain that to me please...

Look..I can give you dozens of actual reasons why that stuff happens.
The truth is that you wont like any of the answers that I give you..and you wont actually listen..so..whats the point?

am asking aren't I? Please tell me...if not here then my tele. I would really like to know your answers as to how this stuff can happen. How I cam pray for someone lay hands on them and they are healed.

Do you know what the term pyschosomatic means?
Its the same thing as when you show a person a pot of boiling water..and blindfold them..then..plunge thier hand into a pot of cold water..
The hand will blister..and burn.

Placebo effect.
"This pill will make you better....and it does...and its nothing more than sugar.......MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED.


Or lets see...how my pastor can have surgery and have His Gallbladder taken out...only to have it put back in several months later by God. MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED. Or how I can speak in tongues....please tell me.[/quote]

"in tounges"

What exactly are "tounges"...what languages are you speaking?
Ive heard someone do that..and it was all gibberish.

Its called "peer pressure".

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.

Ok...I respect that... I wont' be here much longer....I'm fixin to go home soon. (@ work)

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.Is this it?

1st Samuel 2:8: He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

yeah, umm... it's called context... try reading that WHOLE verse, or maybe the whole chapter even... and it will make sense that "pillar" is a metaphore.

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

and yet..myth.

I don't know if you have discussed this about indians arriving in boats to North America, but I think Thor Heyerdal really did follow up Kontiki. And how do you explain the people in the Pacific like melanisians and mikronesians if they didn't come by boat? Doesn't seem quite likely that there was an ice-age there...

of course, the pacific islanders arrived much later in history than the amerindians did. as i said way back on page 4 or so:

people have been in australia and papua new guinea for something on the order of 40-50 thousand years. humans have been in the americas for at least 10 thousand years, and probably more like 20 or 30 thousand. but the islands in between were not settled until much later. less than 3000 years ago for the oldest ones, and around 1600 years ago for the ones closet to the americas.

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.Is this it?

1st Samuel 2:8: He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

yeah, umm... it's called context... try reading that WHOLE verse, or maybe the whole chapter even... and it will make sense that "pillar" is a metaphore.


that could possibly be it, i did a speech on the bible being false, or at least something that does not prove the existence of god or jesus as a school assignment, but my comp. got wiped and i've lost my files since then.
but, we can say thats a metaphor, but, in the bible there are alot of things that could also be taken as metaphors or fact. and mis-reading something could lead to alot of mistakes. (like mine, for example)

the bible also says women was created to glorify man, i wanted to hear your opinion on that.

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

and yet..myth.Holy crap, man! is it even POSSIBLE for you to hold a train of thought? We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

Man, it is impossible to hold a religious discussion with you!

Gall bladder, What is this Mystical organ you speak of? :lol:
And As for tounges and what not. i think it could be similar to Alien abductions and other weird phenomena. Did you know that one of the most powerful halucinegens occour naturallt in the human body. Its called DMT. Its basically the fuel for imagination. Kinda ironic its illegal huh? In large amounts it could do all sorts of weird stuff.

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.Is this it?

1st Samuel 2:8: He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

yeah, umm... it's called context... try reading that WHOLE verse, or maybe the whole chapter even... and it will make sense that "pillar" is a metaphore.


that could possibly be it, i did a speech on the bible being false, or at least something that does not prove the existence of god or jesus as a school assignment, but my comp. got wiped and i've lost my files since then.
but, we can say thats a metaphor, but, in the bible there are alot of things that could also be taken as metaphors or fact. and mis-reading something could lead to alot of mistakes. (like mine, for example)

the bible also says women was created to glorify man, i wanted to hear your opinion on that.OK... There is a BIG difference, one you learn about in any high-school english class, between using a metaphore in speech to explain a point, and using a parable. Assuming that just because one word is a metaphore, everything else is a parable, is just stupid.

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

and yet..myth.Holy crap, man! is it even POSSIBLE for you to hold a train of thought? We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

Man, it is impossible to hold a religious discussion with you!

So..you dont like what I say..so you ahve to personally attack me huh?
Your SUCH a good christian.

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

and yet..myth.Holy crap, man! is it even POSSIBLE for you to hold a train of thought? We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

Man, it is impossible to hold a religious discussion with you!

So..you dont like what I say..so you ahve to personally attack me huh?
Your SUCH a good christian.And the Mods never get after YOu for trolling because...?

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

and yet..myth.Holy crap, man! is it even POSSIBLE for you to hold a train of thought? We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

Man, it is impossible to hold a religious discussion with you!

You are being logical in a religious discussion? :lol:

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

and yet..myth.Holy crap, man! is it even POSSIBLE for you to hold a train of thought? We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

Man, it is impossible to hold a religious discussion with you!

So..you dont like what I say..so you ahve to personally attack me huh?
Your SUCH a good christian.And the Mods never get after YOu for trolling because...?

why do you think?

The Bible Says Women was Created to Glorify Man, do you believe this to be true or not?

We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

a mormon, a physicist, and a psychic find a can of food while they are stranded on a desert island. the physicist says that they should use their eyeglasses to focus the sun on the can to burn a hole in it. the psychic argues that they should focus their mental energy on the can to pry it open. the mormon shakes his head and says, “why don’t we just assume that we have a can opener?”

The Bible Says Women was Created to Glorify Man, do you believe this to be true or not?You know, it would REALLY help if you actually ATTEMPTED to quote scriputres in your little rants...

We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

a mormon, a physicist, and a psychic find a can of food while they are stranded on a desert island. the physicist says that they should use their eyeglasses to focus the sun on the can to burn a hole in it. the psychic argues that they should focus their mental energy on the can to pry it open. the mormon shakes his head and says, “why don’t we just assume that we have a can opener?”I really don't get the joke.

I'm talking about Assuming something for the sake of debate... call it a hypthetical situation if you wish... but don't try to derail the entire topic into your own little 'religion sucks' thread.

Raysia..youve snapped at three people so far..why dont you simmer down..and go do something else for a while....then come back and try this again?

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.Is this it?

1st Samuel 2:8: He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

yeah, umm... it's called context... try reading that WHOLE verse, or maybe the whole chapter even... and it will make sense that "pillar" is a metaphore.


that could possibly be it, i did a speech on the bible being false, or at least something that does not prove the existence of god or jesus as a school assignment, but my comp. got wiped and i've lost my files since then.
but, we can say thats a metaphor, but, in the bible there are alot of things that could also be taken as metaphors or fact. and mis-reading something could lead to alot of mistakes. (like mine, for example)

the bible also says women was created to glorify man, i wanted to hear your opinion on that.Jesus is accepted as being a real person by mainstream history, so you'd have a pretty hard time disproving that Jesus existed.

Raysia..youve snapped at three people so far..why dont you simmer down..and go do something else for a while....then come back and try this again?LOL You know very well why I can't "try this again"... I'll give you a hint... starts with an "s", ends with an "ephistan."

She allows me to have 1 religious thread a day, and she doesn't care if it gets Hijacked.

So... yeah... it's obvious why I'm pissed at you atheists for coming into a Christian debate and derailing the entire thread... but obviously, you couldn't care less.

Weren't you supposed to be the tolerant open-minded one anyway? :P

Raysia..youve snapped at three people so far..why dont you simmer down..and go do something else for a while....then come back and try this again?LOL You know very well why I can't "try this again"... I'll give you a hint... starts with an "s", ends with an "ephistan."

She allows me to have 1 religious thread a day, and she doesn't care if it gets Hijacked.

So... yeah... it's obvious why I'm pissed at you atheists for coming into a Christian debate and derailing the entire thread... but obviously, you couldn't care less.

Weren't you supposed to be the tolerant open-minded one anyway? :P

I could just baptise you when your dead......

I'm talking about Assuming something for the sake of debate... call it a hypthetical situation if you wish... but don't try to derail the entire topic into your own little 'religion sucks' thread.

where have i tried to derail this into a 'religion sucks' thread? i may be an atheist, but i have been consistently giving the acceptable mainstream lutheran position on the question of the origin of native americans. it just so happens that it is tied to the scientific evidence and is not held as dogma. you can't lightly make assumptions that are not agreed to by the parties involved. especially when they are plainly false.

you don't want to talk to christians, you want to talk to fundies.

I'm talking about Assuming something for the sake of debate... call it a hypthetical situation if you wish... but don't try to derail the entire topic into your own little 'religion sucks' thread.

where have i tried to derail this into a 'religion sucks' thread? i may be an atheist, but i have been consistently giving the acceptable mainstream lutheran position on the question of the origin of native americans. it just so happens that it is tied to the scientific evidence and is not held as dogma. you can't lightly make assumptions that are not agreed to by the parties involved. especially when they are plainly false.

you don't want to talk to christians, you want to talk to fundies.No... I just want to talk to Christians who believe in the Bible... I know they're not hard to find...

Are you seriously trying to tell me that only Fundies read the bible?

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner (1 Tim. 2:12-14, NIV).

" Is it any wonder that women's groups oppose this narrative? With his usual wit, Ingersoll once observed: "...nearly every religion has accounted for all the devilment in this world by the crime of woman. What a gallant thing that is! And if it is true, I had rather live with the woman I love in a world full of trouble, than to live in heaven with nothing but men (Ingersoll's Works, Vol. I, p.358).

The Bible is sexist and filled with male supremacy, as the following verses show"...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee (GEN> #:16)."
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man;.... (1 Cor. 11:3)."
"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man (1 Cor. 11:9)." "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husband, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife.... Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husband in every thing (Eph. 5:22-24).
Deut. 21:10-14, 24:1-4, Judges 5:30, Esther 1:20-22, Rom. 7:2, 1 Col. 3:18, Titus 2:4-5, 1 Peter 3:1, Lev. 12:2, 5, Gen. 3:20.

the Bible sanctions the subservience of woman far more than it sanctions the slavery of blacks. Indeed, although many verses support slavery, none clearly prescribes white dominance over blacks.

No... I just want to talk to Christians who believe in the Bible... I know they're not hard to find...

Are you seriously trying to tell me that only Fundies read the bible?

allegory (l-gôr, -gr)
n. pl. allegories

1. a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation.
2. A symbolic representation.

No... I just want to talk to Christians who believe in the Bible... I know they're not hard to find...

Are you seriously trying to tell me that only Fundies read the bible?

allegory (l-gôr, -gr)
n. pl. allegories

1.
1. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
2. A story, picture, or play employing such representation.
2. A symbolic representation..... Are you seriously trying to tell me that only Fundies read the bible literally?

People in general know not what wickedness there is in the pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing, it is a book of lies, wickedness and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy, than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty.
(The Age of Reason, Paine, p.103)

.... Are you seriously trying to tell me that only Fundies read the bible literally?

yes. well, fundies and people who just don't know any better because they haven't looked into anything else.

so, what do u believe about men being superior?

so, what do u believe about men being superior?Not superior nor dominant. Man and woman are equal... different, but equal. They each have their own roles in society. Why you automatically assume that one is better than the other, especially men, is just crazy.

Found A copy of my speech stuff :D

Just read through this whole thread and it brought one thing to my mind. With a name like all consuming, this thread has yet to consume any of my religious belief and I don't see it happening anytime soon with Squatch on the other side of the fence. A little bashing goes a long way so why doesn't everyone simmer down a little and try to make a reasonable debate out of this.
Remember God and the Mods are watching.....

.... Are you seriously trying to tell me that only Fundies read the bible literally?

yes. well, fundies and people who just don't know any better because they haven't looked into anything else.OK... maybe you have a different definition of Fundie..

When i think of a fundamentalist... I think of an extremist or redneck... what are YOU talking about?

Just read through this whole thread and it brought one thing to my mind. With a name like all consuming, this thread has yet to consume any of my religious belief and I don't see it happening anytime soon with Squatch on the other side of the fence. A little bashing goes a long way so why doesn't everyone simmer down a little and try to make a reasonable debate out of this.
Remember God and the Mods are watching.....I switched the title to All-consuming because the mods have told me that all religious discussion belongs here... soo... what am I to do?

We are going under the assumption that there was a flood, and an ark, and a God, and Noah, and his family, and the everyone on the Earth that wasn't in that ark was killed by God in the flood.

a mormon, a physicist, and a psychic find a can of food while they are stranded on a desert island. the physicist says that they should use their eyeglasses to focus the sun on the can to burn a hole in it. the psychic argues that they should focus their mental energy on the can to pry it open. the mormon shakes his head and says, “why don’t we just assume that we have a can opener?”

ROFLMAO

i dont believe men are superior,
but i did post scripture, so 'it says so in the bible'
so it must be TRUE!, unless you can find a metaphor in my examples.

Just read through this whole thread and it brought one thing to my mind. With a name like all consuming, this thread has yet to consume any of my religious belief and I don't see it happening anytime soon with Squatch on the other side of the fence. A little bashing goes a long way so why doesn't everyone simmer down a little and try to make a reasonable debate out of this.
Remember God and the Mods are watching.....

Awww..you big softy....

coming from you....I'll take that as a compliment.

i dont believe men are superior,
but i did post scripture, so 'it says so in the bible'
so it must be TRUE!, unless you can find a metaphor in my examples.In the family, and in the marriage, yes, the Man happens to be the one in contact with Christ, because he has the priesthood... but the woman has a LOT of stuff the man doesn't.

As silly as it sounds, women have a lot of child-raising nurturing skills that men just plain don't have.

Without woman, man would be only half of what he can be.

Man NEEDs woman.

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.Is this it?

1st Samuel 2:8: He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

yeah, umm... it's called context... try reading that WHOLE verse, or maybe the whole chapter even... and it will make sense that "pillar" is a metaphore.

The point is, context would not matter if the bible was indeed 100% literally True, with the big T.

But I'm certainly not claiming that it is, and apparently nor are you.

i dont believe men are superior,
but i did post scripture, so 'it says so in the bible'
so it must be TRUE!, unless you can find a metaphor in my examples.In the family, and in the marriage, yes, the Man happens to be the one in contact with Christ, because he has the priesthood... but the woman has a LOT of stuff the man doesn't.

As silly as it sounds, women have a lot of child-raising nurturing skills that men just plain don't have.

Without woman, man would be only half of what he can be.

Man NEEDs woman.


so, a women should be confined to child rearing roles?
and not be able to do jobs men can do?

i g2g, cya.
have fun arguing

i dont believe men are superior,
but i did post scripture, so 'it says so in the bible'
so it must be TRUE!, unless you can find a metaphor in my examples.In the family, and in the marriage, yes, the Man happens to be the one in contact with Christ, because he has the priesthood... but the woman has a LOT of stuff the man doesn't.

As silly as it sounds, women have a lot of child-raising nurturing skills that men just plain don't have.

Without woman, man would be only half of what he can be.

Man NEEDs woman.

This confuses me..

Why would only the men be able to be in contact with christ?

and ..why would Mormonism imply that men are bereft of child nuturing skills?

I got to go with Ray on this one again....never heard of the pillar thing....

give me a few minutes then, i'll go a hunting.
might take a while though, but i'll come back, even if im wrong.Is this it?

1st Samuel 2:8: He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

yeah, umm... it's called context... try reading that WHOLE verse, or maybe the whole chapter even... and it will make sense that "pillar" is a metaphore.


that could possibly be it, i did a speech on the bible being false, or at least something that does not prove the existence of god or jesus as a school assignment, but my comp. got wiped and i've lost my files since then.
but, we can say thats a metaphor, but, in the bible there are alot of things that could also be taken as metaphors or fact. and mis-reading something could lead to alot of mistakes. (like mine, for example)

the bible also says women was created to glorify man, i wanted to hear your opinion on that.Jesus is accepted as being a real person by mainstream history, so you'd have a pretty hard time disproving that Jesus existed.



OK, i've just stumbled on this thread, so sorry if i missed the general tone and direction of it, or if all of this has already been mentioned, but the bible is a book. that is about the only fact that you can reliably depend on. anything beyond that ranges from pure speculation about historical validity (have you actually looked at the archaeological basis to back the so called 'facts' of the book?) and literary interpretation: if a burning bush is talking to you then either a) you have smoked a bit too much of the funny stuff, b) someone has been playing with their two-way radio and their magnifying lense or c) it is some deep, philosophical statement about nature telling us something about our behaviour. then there are another couple of hundred interpretations for this little example alone which all escape me because I haven't studied theology. also, if you were to then go a step further and look into comparative theology, you would notice that there are a ton of passages in the bible, as well as christian tradition (by which i mean traditions of biblical interpretation) that correspond and/or resemble those in other religions and philosophies (for example the parallels that can be drawn between the 'specifics' of jesus' life and zoroastran/mithriatic tradition). now, this all either means that everything really happened (in which case jesus actually lived in ca. 3500 years ago and was originally called mithras. he had a really cool life and later his story was changed to that of someone called jesus because its basic premise and philosophical angle made sense in the israel of the time [a country under occupation by rome]), or it all is a lot more complicated. if we do accept the second hypothesis, then someone called jesus did exist, and was a really important JEWISH reformer. not necessarily the incarnation of god and yet also a man (and trust me, for the church to come up with the duality of christ took hundreds of years, and there still are some CHRISTIAN churches that don't accept it, so let us not think that there is an obvious answer here!), but certainly someone who claimed to be divinely inspired. now, we also have to put this into context: this is all happening at a time when a) a lot of people really did think that a messiah was going to show up, and b) the romans claimed that their emperor (i.e. the occupying power, the justification for them being in israel and generally kicking everyone else around) was a god. so simply saying: "hey guys, i have a really neat idea or two, and i think you should maybe consider changing your religion according to my ideas, which really go along the lines of a north-european social democratic welfare state...." would not have necessarily gotten much attention. and remember, when martin luther made his little bid for reform of a church (ca. 1600 years later) philosophy had moved along, and europe did not have an overwhealmingly powerful, unified and centralised state system that would crush anyone who dared challenge the status quo, and he didn't have to claim divine origin to validate his thinking, because the validity of intellect and individual thought had been firmly established, and it still took a succession of wars for people to say: "ok, we'll just hate each other and occasionally kill each other, but you can believe in a different interpretation of the same basic message as long as you do so somewhere else, and occasionally let me attck you and kill your family...".
So just because someone called Jesus lived doesn't mean he was holy, and just because he was a reformer doesn't mean that he said all the stuff the writers of the bible say he said (having written it down a couple of decades/centuries later. the revisions and editing of the bible in the first four to six centuries is amazing, and you can't tell me that something written even only 10 years after the fact is going to be verbatim. we live in an age where things are recorded immediately and constantly, and yet mis-interpretation and -representation are rampant!).

right, having gotten that off my chest, i have a couple of questions: i've heard that the armenian church does not recognise the immaculate conception. is this true?
also, has anyone in the course of this thread explained why we should see the old testament as anything other than allegorical?

Nice trick, changing the title of the thread.

Shame it still appears.

I repeat my question to you :

You are the one making claims in the areas of archaeology, geology, and anthropology based solely on the claims made in your particular version of the Bible.

The topic is "what about the native americans". This topic and related ones, e.g. the supposed flood, are all addressed by various mainstream sciences.

Why do you suppose that none of them agree with your interpretation?

Are they all wrong?

i dont believe men are superior,
but i did post scripture, so 'it says so in the bible'
so it must be TRUE!, unless you can find a metaphor in my examples.In the family, and in the marriage, yes, the Man happens to be the one in contact with Christ, because he has the priesthood... but the woman has a LOT of stuff the man doesn't.

As silly as it sounds, women have a lot of child-raising nurturing skills that men just plain don't have.

Without woman, man would be only half of what he can be.

Man NEEDs woman.

so what about nuns? are they just refusing to aknowledge the fact that the link between JC and us is through men? are they nothing but deluded? and would god not frown upon their wate of their "child-raising nurturing skills"?

Nice trick, changing the title of the thread.

Shame it still appears.

I repeat my question to you :

You are the one making claims in the areas of archaeology, geology, and anthropology based solely on the claims made in your particular version of the Bible.

The topic is "what about the native americans". This topic and related ones, e.g. the supposed flood, are all addressed by various mainstream sciences.

Why do you suppose that none of them agree with your interpretation?

Are they all wrong?No. The topic is not "what about the native americans." it is "CHRISTIANS: what about the native americans"

BIG difference. See, when i put that address in the front, that means I'm asking Christians... you know, those guys who already assume the Flood happened and all that...

Nice trick, changing the title of the thread.

Shame it still appears.

I repeat my question to you :

You are the one making claims in the areas of archaeology, geology, and anthropology based solely on the claims made in your particular version of the Bible.

The topic is "what about the native americans". This topic and related ones, e.g. the supposed flood, are all addressed by various mainstream sciences.

Why do you suppose that none of them agree with your interpretation?

Are they all wrong?No. The topic is not "what about the native americans." it is "CHRISTIANS: what about the native americans"

BIG difference. See, when i put that address in the front, that means I'm asking Christians... you know, those guys who already assume the Flood happened and all that...

Not all Christians are fundamentalists. The majority of Christians do not believe in the literal creation or flood stories. Feel free to check with Catholics, Anglicans for example (some of the larger Christian denominations).

As I have previously stated, many Christians these days do not seek explanations of scientif occurences in the Bible.

They view the Bible as God speaking to his people in the language, and with the understanding, of the time.

I am sure you are familiar with the concept of a parable.

The Bible should not be viewed as a science text book. That is about as sensible as viewing it as a cookbook because it sometimes mentions food.

BIG difference. See, when i put that address in the front, that means I'm asking Christians... you know, those guys who already assume the Flood happened and all that...

and once again, not all christians believe the bible is meant to be taken entirely literally. according to http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm the majority think otherwise.

Yes but its the Fundamentalists who make noise about religion, so its arround tehm the debate is focused. And even worse they try very hard to try and exagerate their ranks.

BIG difference. See, when i put that address in the front, that means I'm asking Christians... you know, those guys who already assume the Flood happened and all that...

and once again, not all christians believe the bible is meant to be taken entirely literally. according to http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm the majority think otherwise.

Nice link. unfortunately the exact same site also mentions this:

" Other writings referring to infallibility or inerrancy originated from: The Belgic Confessional (1561 CE).
Council of Florence (1438-1445).
Council of Trent (1545-1563).
Council of the Vatican (1869-1870).
Leo XIII in his Encyclical Letter "Providentissimus Deus" (1893)."

now, "infallable truth" equals "to be taken literally", and "Council" equals "official view of the catholic church", or am i missing something?

BIG difference. See, when i put that address in the front, that means I'm asking Christians... you know, those guys who already assume the Flood happened and all that...

and once again, not all christians believe the bible is meant to be taken entirely literally. according to http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm the majority think otherwise.

Also, the link mentions this:

"However, Christians generally are far more supportive of the inerrancy position. The Barna Research Group reported in 1996 that among American adults generally:

58% believe that the Bible is "totally accurate in all its teachings"
45% believe that the Bible is "absolutely accurate and everything in it can be taken literally."

Are we saying it is a christian thing to blindly trust the bible, or is it an american thing? are we to look at christianity's hold over education for the past ten centuries, or the collapse of the american educational system? is this literal reliance on the bible the result of rampant christian absolutism, or just rampant capitalism?

oh, they are totally supposed to believe it is inerrant. but more and more they don't. 's what comes from claiming the sun goes round the earth and such. you either surrender some ground on the errancy side or you look like willful idiots.

i dont believe men are superior,
but i did post scripture, so 'it says so in the bible'
so it must be TRUE!, unless you can find a metaphor in my examples.In the family, and in the marriage, yes, the Man happens to be the one in contact with Christ, because he has the priesthood... but the woman has a LOT of stuff the man doesn't.

As silly as it sounds, women have a lot of child-raising nurturing skills that men just plain don't have.

Without woman, man would be only half of what he can be.

Man NEEDs woman.

Without woman, man would have a very hard time existing. To say that man needs woman is a bit of an understatement.

oh, they are totally supposed to believe it is inerrant. but more and more they don't. 's what comes from claiming the sun goes round the earth and such. you either surrender some ground on the errancy side or you look like willful idiots.

i agree with you that the reality of life does not correspond with the realities preached by many religions, and i agree that staunch and unwaivering opposition to these changes makes you look like wilful idiots, what i am trying to understand is why the pope seems so intent on doing just that!

i.e. why not just accept the occasional fallability of the human factor in the church? this would still not really undermine the validity of the institution as a whole (if one was to concede that such a thing as the validity of the catholic church existed), and make the human factor within it look modern, astute and understanding, rather than oafishly recalcitrant.

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

The Ark's dimensions were 450 feet (long) x 150 feet (wide) x 45 feet (deep). A box of those dimensions can be tossed just short of 90 degrees without flipping.

Compare with the Titanic, at 883 feet (long), 92 feet (wide), and 104 feet (deep). By comparison, ancient science was better. Methinks it odd, however, that the Titanic be used as an example of seaworthiness :?:

OK... There is a BIG difference, one you learn about in any high-school english class, between using a metaphore in speech to explain a point, and using a parable. Assuming that just because one word is a metaphore, everything else is a parable, is just stupid.

Well excuse us for having to go to public schools! :oops:

they could build wooden ships as big as the Titanic that could stay afloat for 1000 days....

no, they couldn't actually. we still can't. wooden ships are not structurally sound if made that large.And yet... the ark...

The Ark's dimensions were 450 feet (long) x 150 feet (wide) x 45 feet (deep). A box of those dimensions can be tossed just short of 90 degrees without flipping.

Compare with the Titanic, at 883 feet (long), 92 feet (wide), and 104 feet (deep). By comparison, ancient science was better. Methinks it odd, however, that the Titanic be used as an example of seaworthiness :?:

OK... There is a BIG difference, one you learn about in any high-school english class, between using a metaphore in speech to explain a point, and using a parable. Assuming that just because one word is a metaphore, everything else is a parable, is just stupid.

The word is correctly spelled M-E-T-A-P-H-O-R. There is no final "E". When being critical of others, it's always a good idea to check one's spelling.

Yup, as usual, the thread has wandered very far from it's original topic, and there ain't a bloody thing I can do about it. So... i guess it's just an all-out bash-the-christians thread.... *sigh*

Anything Religious in nature must go in this thread, despite the original topic...
Christians: What about the Native Americans?:

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.

Why on earth does any Christian or Christian doctrine need to explain that for?!!! What mind-numbing inanity.

Yup, as usual, the thread has wandered very far from it's original topic, and there ain't a bloody thing I can do about it. So... i guess it's just an all-out bash-the-christians thread.... *sigh*

Anything Religious in nature must go in this thread, despite the original topic...
Christians: What about the Native Americans?:

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.

Why on earth does any Christian or Christian doctrine need to explain that for?!!! What mind-numbing inanity.

Don't worry about it. It was asked and answered the other day and he simply ignored everyone who did answer.

Yup, as usual, the thread has wandered very far from it's original topic, and there ain't a bloody thing I can do about it. So... i guess it's just an all-out bash-the-christians thread.... *sigh*

Anything Religious in nature must go in this thread, despite the original topic...
Christians: What about the Native Americans?:

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.

Why on earth does any Christian or Christian doctrine need to explain that for?!!! What mind-numbing inanity.

Don't worry about it. It was asked and answered the other day and he simply ignored everyone who did answer.

Ah. Thanks Berk. Did this thread just disappear and reappear, or am I just terribly sleep deprived?

Umm... guys? I didn't ignore anything that was said on this thread.

If I missed one, point it out, but so far, I've only heard two theories... one of them is the Mormon account, and the other involves ignoring big parts of the bible... I'm asking bible-believing Christians here!

Umm... guys? I didn't ignore anything that was said on this thread.

If I missed one, point it out, but so far, I've only heard two theories... one of them is the Mormon account, and the other involves ignoring big parts of the bible... I'm asking bible-believing Christians here!

Do you mean Christians who take the scripture literally except for a few verses they find inconvenient?

Yup, as usual, the thread has wandered very far from it's original topic, and there ain't a bloody thing I can do about it. So... i guess it's just an all-out bash-the-christians thread.... *sigh*

Anything Religious in nature must go in this thread, despite the original topic...
Christians: What about the Native Americans?:

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.

Why on earth does any Christian or Christian doctrine need to explain that for?!!! What mind-numbing inanity.

Don't worry about it. It was asked and answered the other day and he simply ignored everyone who did answer.

Ah. Thanks Berk. Did this thread just disappear and reappear, or am I just terribly sleep deprived?

Well, you may be terribly sleep deprived as well, but the thread did just disappear. It's all part of the magic of the NS server.

And Ray, there were several theories put forth as well as several questions raised as to why a Bible-believing Christian has to discount the land bridge theory.

Umm... guys? I didn't ignore anything that was said on this thread.

If I missed one, point it out, but so far, I've only heard two theories... one of them is the Mormon account, and the other involves ignoring big parts of the bible... I'm asking bible-believing Christians here!

Damn CC, there are only so many scientific theories one can come up with within the bounds of religious dogma.

If I missed one, point it out, but so far, I've only heard two theories... one of them is the Mormon account, and the other involves ignoring big parts of the bible... I'm asking bible-believing Christians here!

not ignoring. treating as allegorical. there is a difference. most mainstream churches do not treat the bible as commpletely literally true or as completely inerrant. they believe that god inspired people to tell his story which they wrote in their words and from their frame of reference. as such the bible is not to be treated as a history book or as a science book.

you may disagree with the practice, but you'd have a really hard time convincing people that lutherans, episcopalians, catholics, orthodox(ians?), methodists, etc. are not bible-believing christians.

Umm... guys? I didn't ignore anything that was said on this thread.

If I missed one, point it out, but so far, I've only heard two theories... one of them is the Mormon account, and the other involves ignoring big parts of the bible... I'm asking bible-believing Christians here!

Damn CC, there are only so many scientific theories one can come up with within the bounds of religious dogma.so? I want to hear 1 other than the Mormon one that has been consistently shot down.

That was practically the point of this thread.

If I wanted to know what people OUTSIDE of christianity thought, I would have asked that specifically.

most mainstream churches do not treat the bible as commpletely literally true or as completely inerrant. I didn't say it was 100% correct... but there are a few big stories that should be taken seriously...

I don't know where you get the idea that MOST mainstream churches believe that... I would never have imagined that kind of statistic.

What other stuff do they not take seriously?

most mainstream churches do not treat the bible as commpletely literally true or as completely inerrant. I didn't say it was 100% correct... but there are a few big stories that should be taken seriously...

I don't know where you get the idea that MOST mainstream churches believe that... I would never have imagined that kind of statistic.

What other stuff do they not take seriously?

You are still missing the difference between "not take seriously" and "see as allegorical." If you made the decision to take the entire Bible literally, you would have to decide that yes, the whole rest of the universe does revolve around the sun and yes, a woman who gets raped inside the town should be punished since she obviously wanted it and yes, God created the entire world twice (once with mankind being first and once with a single man and a single woman being created last).

The truth is that the Bible was written and translated and passed down by human hands, so one who wishes to believe must examine the Bible in the context of what they know to be true and what their personal relationship with God tells them is true. Although there is a lot of Truth in the Bible, it doesn't necessarily have to be historical truth.

I didn't say it was 100% correct... but there are a few big stories that should be taken seriously...

I don't know where you get the idea that MOST mainstream churches believe that... I would never have imagined that kind of statistic.

What other stuff do they not take seriously?

they certainly wouldn't say that they don't take them seriously. just not literally.

i don't think anyone has a specific list of literal and nonliteral parts of the bible. it all comes down to studied interpretation, using (as they would say) your god-given gift of reason and the best extra-biblical evidence available in addition to scripture and the overall message of christianity. for example, you don't see mainline theologians at all concerned by the fact that rabbits don't actually chew the cud (lev 11:6), because they figure god wasn't giving a biology lesson at the time. but for literalists it presents all sorts of problems and you can find them offering all sorts of rationalizations (http://aig.gospelcom.net/docs/3725.asp).

most mainstream churches do not treat the bible as commpletely literally true or as completely inerrant. I didn't say it was 100% correct... but there are a few big stories that should be taken seriously...

I don't know where you get the idea that MOST mainstream churches believe that... I would never have imagined that kind of statistic.

What other stuff do they not take seriously?

You are still missing the difference between "not take seriously" and "see as allegorical." If you made the decision to take the entire Bible literally, you would have to decide that yes, the whole rest of the universe does revolve around the sun and yes, a woman who gets raped inside the town should be punished since she obviously wanted it and yes, God created the entire world twice (once with mankind being first and once with a single man and a single woman being created last).

The truth is that the Bible was written and translated and passed down by human hands, so one who wishes to believe must examine the Bible in the context of what they know to be true and what their personal relationship with God tells them is true. Although there is a lot of Truth in the Bible, it doesn't necessarily have to be historical truth.OKI then. I'll buy that answer.

But, under that understanding, who gets to decide what was real and what was made up? Do you still believe in the miracles? Or were those allegorical as well? What about Christ's Resurrection... you guys still believe that happened, right?

I don't see why the existence of Native Americans conflict the Christian religion as a whole. :?

No, I simply don't get it. :?: :?: :?: :?:

OK. I am a Christian. However, I do not believe that God created the world in 7 days just as it is now any more than I believe that God thinks we should never cut the hair on our temples or our beards, wear clothes made form two different kinds of thread, sow two different kinds of crop in our fields, and that if one's daughter has pre-marital sex we should either stone her to death in the center of the town or sell her into slavery (all taken from Leviticus). I accept evolution, and the fact that the Earth is not 6000 but 4 billion years old. I accept the fact that the Ice Age ocurred, and that there were one or more migrations from Asia to the Americas. The Old Testament is mostly allegory, as far as I'm concerned. I give no more relevance to the jewish/christian/muslim creation story than I do to that of the Greeks and Norse. I think it is meant to show God as supreme, and that humans are sinful, and imperfect.
I also do not advocate the many crimes done in the name of God. Also, if you'll notice, Jesus did not talk about the old testament very much. He mostly preached that you should love God and your fellow human beings.
I believe that God probably had something to do with the big bang, and the initial spark of life. However, other than that, I believe that God is not very present in physical matters, but more in those of the Soul. I do believe in the existance of a soul, because if you take several corpses, assemble a body out of their good parts (parts that could be used for organ donation) it still will not be alive. The whole Frankenstein thing really does not work, I'm sure everybody knew that. Also, did you know that when you die, everyone loses almost exactly 28 grams?
The spiritual realm is God's doman. Christians believe the Bible to be God's word. Supposedly, God is the smartest being in existance. Now, don't you think that if God is the smartest being in existance, God would have at least a functioning grasp of the literary technique of metaphor? I think so, in fact, I wouldn't want God to be too dumb to use metaphors.

Now love your neighbors. :D

Religion, Science, Politics

They're all separate entities and should not be mixed and one trying to control/influence the other.

Does it really matter how the Earth was created?
Does it really matter how the Native Americans managed to cross into America?

Religion is to find peace in soul.
Science is used to find peace in body.
Politics does neither.

So, guys, like I said, what DO you believe in the Old Testament?

The old testament gives good metaphors for life on occassion, but I honestly do not take it for fact.

Capsule Corporation: Do you cut the hair on your temple, or your beard, if you're a guy? Would you wear clothes made of more than one kind of cloth (jeans count as this, so does anything that's part polyester, or part wool and part cotton)? If you are female, do you go to church during (and a week after) the time you're having your period? Do you eat pork? If you do any of these, you are in violation of God's law, according to the old testament.

Considering this, I take the Old Testament with a bit of salt. The New Testament is where the important message is.

God told me that he created the native americans to test the settlers... That makes sense, right?

God told me that he created the native americans to test the settlers... That makes sense, right?

Well...yeah...I mean...if God told you... :wink:

Back to your original topic CC, I'll play Devil's Advocate for the Xtians.

Look at a map or an atlas. You'll notice that the Bering Strait is about 90 km (56 miles) give or take. That stretch of water could be covered in a matter of a couple of days, hours if sails are involved but I don't believe sails would be around yet. Compare that with the 2000+ miles to cross the Atlantic, it doesn't seem all that unlikely does it?

God told me that he created the native americans to test the settlers... That makes sense, right?

Well...yeah...I mean...if God told you... :wink:

Yep...I just read this thread and thought "why don't I just ask the guy?"

God told me that he created the native americans to test the settlers... That makes sense, right?

Well...yeah...I mean...if God told you... :wink:

Yep...I just read this thread and thought "why don't I just ask the guy?"

That's the smart way to do it. Get the truth from the source, don't trust those lackeys. :wink:

So, guys, like I said, what DO you believe in the Old Testament?

heh.. heh... NADA

So, guys, like I said, what DO you believe in the Old Testament?

There were probably some guys named Maccabees who did some stuff.

I'm sorry guys, but I based this thread on the idea that Most Christians assumed the Bible was true.

Since that has been said to be false... then the point of this thread is gone.

So, whatever.

If anyone who actually does believe in the Bible can give an answer, that'd be cool.

Or a Jew even... that'd be good.

God told me that he created the native americans to test the settlers... That makes sense, right?

Well...yeah...I mean...if God told you... :wink:

Yep...I just read this thread and thought "why don't I just ask the guy?"

That's the smart way to do it. Get the truth from the source, don't trust those lackeys. :wink:

He also told me that people with red hair are the "chosen ones"

He also told me that people with red hair are the "chosen ones"I seriously doubt that. I'm willing to bet money you are doing nothing more than mocking me and other christians.

Screw you.

He also told me that people with red hair are the "chosen ones"I seriously doubt that. I'm willing to bet money you are doing nothing more than mocking me and other christians.

Screw you.

He did too! I have 8000 followers to prove it!!! In his own words: "Red haireth people shall haveth thy prettiesteth girls of the village, the besteth food and shalleth naught be made funeth at during school. Woe be unto anyoneth who triesth that."

Red Haired people have been discriminated against for long enough...It is time for them to rise up and assume the role god intended them for.

Un-screw you and god be with you.

I'm sorry guys, but I based this thread on the idea that Most Christians assumed the Bible was true.

Since that has been said to be false... then the point of this thread is gone.

So, whatever.

If anyone who actually does believe in the Bible can give an answer, that'd be cool.

Or a Jew even... that'd be good.

So your not familiar with Maccabees?

All hail our red-haired masters!
They shall be given the tiny island that was formerly Iceland, but will from now on be known as "Rd'h'airy" (That's the holy language for "Big island").
Relocations of Icelanders shall begin soon.

Amen
And goodnight
*goose-steps to bed*

I'm sorry guys, but I based this thread on the idea that Most Christians assumed the Bible was true.

Since that has been said to be false... then the point of this thread is gone.

So, whatever.

If anyone who actually does believe in the Bible can give an answer, that'd be cool.

Or a Jew even... that'd be good.

So your not familiar with Maccabees?not really.

I'm sorry guys, but I based this thread on the idea that Most Christians assumed the Bible was true.

Since that has been said to be false... then the point of this thread is gone.

So, whatever.

If anyone who actually does believe in the Bible can give an answer, that'd be cool.

Or a Jew even... that'd be good.

So your not familiar with Maccabees?not really.

Meh. No surprise there. Most people don't know that there are seven more books in the Bible than the average Prodistant has. I should know, I used to be the average Prodistant. :wink:


http://ebible.org/bible/kjv/1Mac.htm

http://ebible.org/bible/kjv/2Mac.htm

I'm sorry guys, but I based this thread on the idea that Most Christians assumed the Bible was true.

Since that has been said to be false... then the point of this thread is gone.

So, whatever.

If anyone who actually does believe in the Bible can give an answer, that'd be cool.

Or a Jew even... that'd be good.

So your not familiar with Maccabees?not really.

Meh. No surprise there. Most people don't know that there are seven more books in the Bible than the average Prodistant has. I should know, I used to be the average Prodistant. :wink:Oh, well of course I know OF them... It's a book in the Apocrypha. But I have never read it.

I'm sorry guys, but I based this thread on the idea that Most Christians assumed the Bible was true.

Since that has been said to be false... then the point of this thread is gone.

So, whatever.

If anyone who actually does believe in the Bible can give an answer, that'd be cool.

Or a Jew even... that'd be good.

So your not familiar with Maccabees?not really.

Meh. No surprise there. Most people don't know that there are seven more books in the Bible than the average Prodistant has. I should know, I used to be the average Prodistant. :wink:Oh, well of course I know OF them... It's a book in the Apocrypha. But I have never read it.

It's two books actually. See the links.

You know, I'm really getting tired of hearing all this pretentious "you're not a true Christian if you don't take every word in the bible literally" stuff (and yes, I know no one said those exact words, but that's the impression I'm getting from certain people), so before I get too angry, because to me, it is insulting, I'm going to stop bothering to argue on this thread, after all, it's just the internet. I'm obviously not going to change anyone's mind if I haven't already.

Capsule Corporation: I seem to disagree with you on most points of religion, but I have heard you're formerly known as Raysia, and if that is the case, I have some stuff I would like you to do 3D model pictures of, because you're good at that.


"It is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."
-Jesus Christ

Come on guys...
Why do so many threads about Christianity or any religion/faith/belief always end up in war? Can't we all just keep our faith's within our hearts? I have always believed that religion - ANY - god or no god is but a guideline of the moralities of life.

CC - sorry for the off topic, but really... A faith is only absolute within the hearts and souls of those who follow it. When those who follow it say their faith is the absolute one, they are simply (unawaringly) saying that is is absolute inside of the themselves.

As a follower of the Buddhist scriptures (not a worshipper), it tells us all - no matter what faith we all follow, that to attain peace is to attain tolerance for everyone else around you. Yes, some of my Christian friends may say otherwise, but I always just look at them, smile and say, "Why not?"

Aside from theology, science, and religion, personally, I believe that the Native peoples of North America came through the Russian-Alaskan islands that connected the two continents. Considering (if) our oceans have increased in height as in water levels, then the possibility of those same islands being more 'connected' by foot is plausible. Of course, I do not know for sure. If I did, I would most likely be about two or three thousand years old right now...

History books and other historical media are here to teach us about our present. However, personally, I will never absolutely say that our books tell us an absolute truth, because I was never there, and neither were any of us. Unless CC, you are thousands and maybe tens of thousands of years old... 8]

I sincerely dream that one day in the far and distant future, that everyone will take religion as a secondary means to fulfill the void in their lives, and have Life itself as the primary item to engage in the study and improvement of the greater whole. [sigh] If only I have more power, more wealth, more influencial alliances... Sadly, maybe not in this lifetime...

You know, I'm really getting tired of hearing all this pretentious "you're not a true Christian if you don't take every word in the bible literally" stuff (and yes, I know no one said those exact words, but that's the impression I'm getting from certain people), so before I get too angry, because to me, it is insulting, I'm going to stop bothering to argue on this thread, after all, it's just the internet. I'm obviously not going to change anyone's mind if I haven't already.

Capsule Corporation: I seem to disagree with you on most points of religion, but I have heard you're formerly known as Raysia, and if that is the case, I have some stuff I would like you to do 3D model pictures of, because you're good at that.


"It is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."
-Jesus ChristGo ahead and telegram me

He did too! I have 8000 followers to prove it!!! In his own words: "Red haireth people shall haveth thy prettiesteth girls of the village, the besteth food and shalleth naught be made funeth at during school. Woe be unto anyoneth who triesth that."

Artoonia's G-d uses proper English, although he ususally speaks to its citizens in Esperanto or, for the few who study religion and speak it, Hebrew. But no matter what language He speaks, He speaks it properly.

He did too! I have 8000 followers to prove it!!! In his own words: "Red haireth people shall haveth thy prettiesteth girls of the village, the besteth food and shalleth naught be made funeth at during school. Woe be unto anyoneth who triesth that."

Artoonia's G-d uses proper English, although he ususally speaks to its citizens in Esperanto or, for the few who study religion and speak it, Hebrew. But no matter what language He speaks, He speaks it properly.

You would make fun of God's lisp? :shock: <---tiny joke

He did too! I have 8000 followers to prove it!!! In his own words: "Red haireth people shall haveth thy prettiesteth girls of the village, the besteth food and shalleth naught be made funeth at during school. Woe be unto anyoneth who triesth that."

Artoonia's G-d uses proper English, although he ususally speaks to its citizens in Esperanto or, for the few who study religion and speak it, Hebrew. But no matter what language He speaks, He speaks it properly.

Ah...but you see, this is how god speaks, so it must be correct.

*mumbles something about infidels*

OKI then. I'll buy that answer.

But, under that understanding, who gets to decide what was real and what was made up? Do you still believe in the miracles? Or were those allegorical as well? What about Christ's Resurrection... you guys still believe that happened, right?

I believe it is a matter of personal reflection and prayer. We'll never have everyone come to the exact same conclusions, but religion should be a personal journey to try to get and remain close to God, not a "whatever you say reverend" journey.