NationStates Jolt Archive

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note that I only want Christians to answer.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.

Oh...this should be good....I'm gonna get popcorn....well...if you believe some wackos....we're the descendants of some mystery Israelite tribe, etc..etc..I can tell you...I may be circumcised but that don't mean a rabbi presided over me with a knife....I can tell you that.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Fundie response: GOD PUT THEM THERE YOU HEATHEN!!!11

Oh...this should be good....I'm gonna get popcorn....well...if you believe some wackos....we're the descendants of some mystery Israelite tribe, etc..etc..I can tell you...I may be circumcised but that don't mean a rabbi presided over me with a knife....I can tell you that.lol something like that.

(That is actually the story I go by... Back in the day of the prophets in Israel, when everyone was saying Jerusalem was going to be destroyed, one guy took his family and one other family, built a boat, and sailed to North America. )

At least it IS an explanation. I've heard nothing from the Christians... thus my curiosity.

DP

*Sits down with some popcorn and waits to see the responses to this*

*Sits down with some popcorn and waits to see the responses to this*

Heyyy..is that caramel popcorn...mine is white cheddar...wanna swap?

I did a quick google search... nothing supporting the land bridge theory, everything bashing the Mormon's story, and a lot of things saying the Ice Age didn't happen while man was on the Earth...

*steals patoxia's popcorn*

I'll be back from school in 4 hours... I wanna know how this turns up :)

If no one replies, please bump it! :)

biblical literalists have got nothing. they believe things that are silly and plainly false slightly worse than mormons do.

regular christians are theoretically encouraged to accept the findings of science, though many of them don't and continue to believe stupid things out of ignorance. but at least ignorance is curable.

it was the aliens man

the ALIENSSSSSSSSSSS

Most Christians don't believe in the seven days thing... I believe the Earth is as old as most scientists do. I'm not convinced about evolutiont though...

I did a quick google search... nothing supporting the land bridge theory, everything bashing the Mormon's story, and a lot of things saying the Ice Age didn't happen while man was on the Earth...

There are some problems with dates from the single migration land bridge migration theory (such as the timing of the "Ice Free Corridor" and the appearance of the first sites) but the focus is now shifting to the (more probable) theory of multiple migrations, over the land bridge and from across the pacific ocean on vessels.

Most Christians don't believe in the seven days thing... I believe the Earth is as old as most scientists do. I'm not convinced about evolutiont though...

No? Why not? Its perfectly logical, and incredibly beautiful. Never has so much been explained so simply with the use of so few assumptions.
Darwinism is a beautiful, intelligent and powerful force.

Most Christians don't believe in the seven days thing... I believe the Earth is as old as most scientists do. I'm not convinced about evolutiont though...

No? Why not? Its perfectly logical, and incredibly beautiful. Never has so much been explained so simply with the use of so few assumptions.
Darwinism is a beautiful, intelligent and powerful force.

Looks like this thread is about to be hi-jacked into another Creationist-Evolutionist debate...

Most Christians don't believe in the seven days thing... I believe the Earth is as old as most scientists do. I'm not convinced about evolutiont though...

No? Why not? Its perfectly logical, and incredibly beautiful. Never has so much been explained so simply with the use of so few assumptions.
Darwinism is a beautiful, intelligent and powerful force.

Looks like this thread is about to be hi-jacked into another Creationist-Evolutionist debate...
AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes. And we love it.

Most Christians don't believe in the seven days thing... I believe the Earth is as old as most scientists do. I'm not convinced about evolutiont though...

No? Why not? Its perfectly logical, and incredibly beautiful. Never has so much been explained so simply with the use of so few assumptions.
Darwinism is a beautiful, intelligent and powerful force.

Looks like this thread is about to be hi-jacked into another Creationist-Evolutionist debate...
AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes. And we love it.

NONONONONONONONONONONO...

Okay, why not. Everyone's doing it and it looks cool. :lol:

There are some problems with dates from the single migration land bridge migration theory (such as the timing of the "Ice Free Corridor" and the appearance of the first sites) but the focus is now shifting to the (more probable) theory of multiple migrations, over the land bridge and from across the pacific ocean on vessels.

three cheers for monte verde - destroyer of consensus, eater of worlds

No..No..NO...there will be no hi-jacking of this thread. I wanna know what the Christian says bout me, an Indian and how I got here..listen...I don't look like ANYTHING close to Adam or Seth..or Heptet..whatever..so somebody is lying baby!!!

I think Native Americans and their epicantric fold look a lot like Asians

Ok. Well, at school, my Dad asked this-
"Why curse to hell those who never had the chance to be saved? Its ok for God to send people to hell if they KNEW about the saviour, but surely its unfair to send people who never knew about Jesus to hell. Aborigines and Native Americans, for example? Surely its unfair to curse them for not worshipping Jesus when they never knew he existed? What kind of God would do that?"

Of course, the Christian teacher beat him. And people wonder why he doesn't believe in God.

No..No..NO...there will be no hi-jacking of this thread. I wanna know what the Christian says bout me, an Indian and how I got here..listen...I don't look like ANYTHING close to Adam or Seth..or Heptet..whatever..so somebody is lying baby!!!

Okay, well, Salishe, once upon a time your Mommie and Daddie loved each other...like, er, well, you know, LOVED each other...

Oh, you mean metaphysically. Well, how should I know. I wasn't there. :D

But, if it makes any difference, this Christian believes in the land bridge or some variation of that theme.

Also:

I may be circumcised but that don't mean a rabbi presided over me with a knife

I now know far too much about your penis.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Have you never heard of the Atlantis story. It explains many things, like why there are pyramids on both sides of the Atlantic, why there are indigenous people on both side and why there is no proof it never existed.

There are some problems with dates from the single migration land bridge migration theory (such as the timing of the "Ice Free Corridor" and the appearance of the first sites) but the focus is now shifting to the (more probable) theory of multiple migrations, over the land bridge and from across the pacific ocean on vessels.

three cheers for monte verde - destroyer of consensus, eater of worlds

Actually there is a site in Brazil called Pedra Furada that's supposedly older than Monte Verde. About 20000 years old according to the researcher there, Niede Guidon. But there is disagreement on the accuracy of those dates since they are based on tools alone and it's possible that they are naturally occuring. But yes Mone Verde it pretty much universally recognized (by archaeologists anyway) as predating Clovis.

dp

Yes....I can no longer deny it....Gort....Klaatu..Barada..Niktu....yes the Aliens seeded us here to keep an eye on you humans....hehe

Actually there is a site in Brazil called Pedra Furada that's supposedly older than Monte Verde. About 20000 years old according to the researcher there, Niede Guidon. But there is disagreement on the accuracy of those dates since they are based on tools alone and it's possible that they are naturally occuring. But yes Mone Verde it pretty much universally recognized (by archaeologists anyway) as predating Clovis.

i seem to recall one or two sites from north america that were gaining pre-clovis credibility too. though its been awhile since i kept up with archaeology more than just passingly.

christians can believe in the ice bridge. even christians who believe the world is 6,000 years old can believe in the ice bridge.

and for one thing, mormons aren't christians. but they are idiots. they think some jews came over here, and became indians. well, jews are mediterranean caucasoids. indians are mongoloids. they're two separate races altogether. but the mormons try to say that God "cursed" the jews over here by giving them dark skin, and BAM! indians. but like i said, indians are mongoloids. mongoloids got straight black hair, flat faces, high cheek bones, slanty eyes...indians, chinese, japanese...all mongoloids. so, yeah. mormonism was invented by a douche wad who had absolutely no clue as to how the races are classified.

some asians came to america. Jesus saves. is that all contradictory? uh, no.

Wait a second... I'm confused. How is it that I, a Christian, am not allowed to believe in the Ice Age?

dp

tp

qp

I hate this server :evil:

No..No..NO...there will be no hi-jacking of this thread. I wanna know what the Christian says bout me, an Indian and how I got here..listen...I don't look like ANYTHING close to Adam or Seth..or Heptet..whatever..so somebody is lying baby!!!

The purpose of the Bible is spiritual enlightenment, not a compendium of all knowledge ever. Creation, destruction, Noah, and other stories may be allegorical or literary devices to get across God's point.

Yes, the idea of a seven day creation with Adam and Eve while there are humans of multiple races spread out across the globe is silly. Remember that the story of creation was being written to a collection of Jewish tribes several thousand years ago. To explain in a spiritual text that there is a great landmass, across an ocean larger than you can currently measure, where other tribes of people are would not make any sense.

The Bible is about spiritual enlightenment, how to live one's life and how to better society. It is not a book of science and unfortunately bad things have happened in the past when the Bible was declared to be the authority on science. I know no more or less about your question than you do. However, there is nothing in the theory of evolution requiring that a deity is NOT involved.

(That is actually the story I go by... Back in the day of the prophets in Israel, when everyone was saying Jerusalem was going to be destroyed, one guy took his family and one other family, built a boat, and sailed to North America. )

At least it IS an explanation. I've heard nothing from the Christians... thus my curiosity.

i would imagine that most people would say that it is better to not have an explanation than to have a false one.

dp

No..No..NO...there will be no hi-jacking of this thread. I wanna know what the Christian says bout me, an Indian and how I got here..listen...I don't look like ANYTHING close to Adam or Seth..or Heptet..whatever..so somebody is lying baby!!!

The purpose of the Bible is spiritual enlightenment, not a compendium of all knowledge ever. Creation, destruction, Noah, and other stories may be allegorical or literary devices to get across God's point.

Yes, the idea of a seven day creation with Adam and Eve while there are humans of multiple races spread out across the globe is silly. Remember that the story of creation was being written to a collection of Jewish tribes several thousand years ago. To explain in a spiritual text that there is a great landmass, across an ocean larger than you can currently measure, where other tribes of people are would not make any sense.

The Bible is about spiritual enlightenment, how to live one's life and how to better society. It is not a book of science and unfortunately bad things have happened in the past when the Bible was declared to be the authority on science. I know no more or less about your question than you do. However, there is nothing in the theory of evolution requiring that a deity is NOT involved.

Bingo!

Anyone? Anyone? I know there are Christians on this board...

No one knows this?

OK, the seven-days/creation theory has NOTHING to do with this, since our reference point for MAN would have to be Noah... because the whole world was flooded, and only the people on the boat survived.

So, considering that the whole noah thing was around 6000 BC to 4000 BC... how does the Ice Age fit in to that?!

I heard someone suggest they might have come over on boats... heh... and yet, they still say the Mormons' story is rediculous.. you know, that one where they came over on a boat :P

there is nothing in the theory of evolution requiring that a deity is NOT involved.The theory of evolution does apply in a lot of cases, but not in the case of humans. Humans are a very special case. There is evidence of that in the simple fact that relative to other species of animals on the Earth, we are by far the most intelligent and capable.

A common misunderstanding about the "Seven days" theory is that it actually took 7 days by modern reckoning... total crap. The Lord's time is 1 day>1000 years earth time, according to the new Testament. For all we know, one of these "days" could have been a couple hundred million years relative to our reckning.

Anyone? Anyone? I know there are Christians on this board...

No one knows this?

OK, the seven-days/creation theory has NOTHING to do with this, since ouyr reference point for MAN would have to be Noah... because the whole world was flooded, and only the people on the boat survived.

So, considering that the whole noah thing was around 6000 BC to 4000 BC... how does the Ice Age fit in to that?!

I heard someone suggest they might have come over on baots... heh... and yet, they still say the Mormons' story is rediculous.. you know, that one where they came over on a boat :P

Several Christians have answered you and you've chosen to ignore them all.

Oh so it's lets bash the christanes. You guys are so hypocritical. You argue aganst racism and nazism and state they are evil but you deem it okay to call christans morons. You guys have no idea about church doctrines but you love to talk about christanes. I am a devot Roman Catholic and I am offended. So give your reason on why we are morons. You sound like that bigoted @$$hole Rahilse. You have no idea on what you are talking about so shut up. And besides not all of us believe in creationism you guys just love to generlize. You guys are a bunch of whiney bigoted bastards. By the way I appleud my fellow christanse who stood up to these commie bullys.

Oh so it's lets bash the christanes. You guys are so hypocritical. You argue aganst racism and nazism and state they are evil but you deem it okay to call christans morons. You guys have no idea about church doctrines but you love to talk about christanes. I am a devot Roman Catholic and I am offended. So give your reason on why we are morons. You sound like that bigoted @$$hole Rahilse. You have no idea on what you are talking about so shut up. And besides not all of us believe in creationism you guys just love to generlize. You guys are a bunch of whiney bigoted bastards. By the way I appleud my fellow christanse who stood up to these commie bullys.

Several Christians have answered you and you've chosen to ignore them all.Really? Let me read through the thread again:

Patoxia: There are some problems with dates from the single migration land bridge migration theory (such as the timing of the "Ice Free Corridor" and the appearance of the first sites) but the focus is now shifting to the (more probable) theory of multiple migrations, over the land bridge and from across the pacific ocean on vessels.

That's what I said :)

Chaddavis: christians can believe in the ice bridge. even christians who believe the world is 6,000 years old can believe in the ice bridge.

Then after that, nothing but "Blah blah blah, I hate Mormons."

Yeah, umm.. that doesn't work... Land birdge is an Ice Age theory... ice age was most certainly not within the last 6000 years.

Soperton: Just said how the Bible doesn't tell everything, just meant for enlightenment.

-----

yeah... when was a good explanation given? Did I still manage to ignore it?

Oh, just one other pont:
I am a devot Roman Catholic... not all of us believe in creationism I'm sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever... that's like a Christian believing Christ was never born :P

According to one explanation I've heard, shortly after the Flood, before the continents split, it would have been possible to make it there on foot. Genesis 10:25 says it was "in [Peleg's] days the earth was divided", and this would have been about 200 years after the Flood.

I am a devot Roman Catholic... not all of us believe in creationism I'm sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever... that's like a Christian believing Christ was never born :P

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see"

No it isn't. It means that Catholics don't take the Bible word for word.

Bah, this is an easy question to answer.

Okay, in the book of Genesis, there's the story of the Tower of Babel. Basically, all the people in the world mirgrated to one spot and attempted to build a tower to Heaven. God saw what they were doing, made them speak different languages(they all spoke one langauge before then) and they dispersed, moving with people who spoke their language.

So then the Native Americans moved over Beringia and settled in the Americas. Then the Biblical Flood came and screwed up the Earth and Beringia sank beneath the ocean and the contineants broke apart.

Yay Continental Drift Theory!

That good enough for you? ^_^

A common misunderstanding about the "Seven days" theory is that it actually took 7 days by modern reckoning... total crap. The Lord's time is 1 day>1000 years earth time, according to the new Testament. For all we know, one of these "days" could have been a couple hundred million years relative to our reckning.

Where abouts exactly? Please enlighten this poor spiritually bankrupt atheist

Whaddya mean Christians don't believe in the Ice Age? Crazy, man. I am part Cherokee, and a Christian. Yeah, sure, I don't know all the answers, but don't stereotype Christians.
Oh, and someone earlier was talking about how his dad asked a question and his "Christian" teacher beat him? A lot of people have struggled with that question, Christians included, and I think it's a legitimate question. Truth is, God gives everyone a chance, and it would be contrary to his nature not to give someone a chance. I don't know what the answer to that question is, and I don't think we really will.
Do you think that "Christian" was really a Christian? Doubt it. Just going to church or having all the right answers or being born into a Christian family doesn't make you one. Real Christians would know that they need to treat others with kindness and respect. You can tell one by the love they show everyone, even the people they can't really stand. And they have peace. Real peace, not some temporary thing. But of course, they make mistakes, like all people. Ah, and Christians also try to say things that will glorify God. Their mouth is like a mirror to their heart. Yeah, no cussing.
I agree that Native Americans are tied with Asians.
Oh, and I heard some guy was trying to prove that you could actually cross the Pacific going from island to island on a handmade boat, but of course he had a map and knew where the islands were ahead of time. Never followed up on it, though.

Oh so it's lets bash the christanes. You guys are so hypocritical. You argue aganst racism and nazism and state they are evil but you deem it okay to call christans morons. You guys have no idea about church doctrines but you love to talk about christanes. I am a devot Roman Catholic and I am offended. So give your reason on why we are morons. You sound like that bigoted @$$hole Rahilse. You have no idea on what you are talking about so shut up. And besides not all of us believe in creationism you guys just love to generlize. You guys are a bunch of whiney bigoted bastards. By the way I appleud my fellow christanse who stood up to these commie bullys.

You just contradicted yourself. How could you be offended by us 'biggots', if a lot of you are hypocritical yourselves? Creationalism is one of the core beliefs of the Christians. Without it, their God would not exist. They believe solely that their Christ and omnipotent almighty being of absolute power created Earth. In the Book of Genesis, it talks ONLY of the Earth - its creation and how it came to be, and so on. AND yes, a lot of us who are in this 'debate' know what we are talking about. I spend a good couple of years of my youth in the re-education of a Christian school and church.

BTW Soperton - your explanation is exactly how I conceptialized it in my book. Superbly done! 8]

aHAH! Someone FINALLY mentioned the division of the Earth!

However... the Tower of Bable, where the languages were confounded, and the people were scattered, happened AFTER this.

And of course, ALL oif this happened waaay after the flood.

Explanation? Were they just picked up and thrown to another continent? Or did they leave before the scattering of nations?

yugo: You guys don't believe anything of the first couple chapters? You don't believe anything about the garden of Eden, or the apple, or the creation at all? Wow, way to pick and choose...

TGL: Oops, forgot, that wasn't in the bible... nevrmind ^_^

Texascotsirish: Whaddya mean Christians don't believe in the Ice Age? Umm... because the Ice Age did not happen in the last 6000 years...

How is this thread even necessary? Do you hate Christians or something?

How is this thread even necessary? Do you hate Christians or something?

yugo: You guys don't believe anything of the first couple chapters? You don't believe anything about the garden of Eden, or the apple, or the creation at all? Wow, way to pick and choose...
No. Those 'guys' see those chapters as allagorical(sp?), not as cold hard fact. Catholics, for all the faults of the institution, actually engage their brain and question things. Rather than simply accept what they have been told.
TGL: Oops, forgot, that wasn't in the bible... nevrmind ^_^ Hoped no one would pick you up on that didn't you? :wink: However it raises an interesting point. If your don't view the 'days' as days (ie 24 hours), but rather as unspecified periods of time. The creation story is reasonably believable (although not totally, but given the time it was written, surprisingly accurate).

Texascotsirish: Whaddya mean Christians don't believe in the Ice Age? Umm... because the Ice Age did not happen in the last 6000 years... This belief beggers belief. I will ask you to contact a geologist, who should explain it far better than I can.

How is this thread even necessary? Do you hate Christians or something?Hardly.

In fact, it's the opposite.

It's the fact that any time I present my theory, you guys say "mormons are idiots."

As a Mormon, I KNOW where the indians came from, and you refuse to accept it. So much that, even though you can't come up with a single reasonable sketch of a theory, you still dismiss our story like it were something some guy in a mental hospital made up.

However, there is nothing in the theory of evolution requiring that a deity is NOT involved.

:roll:

So you're just going to assume that its ok to allow people to claim that one is, despite the total lack of anything to support such a view?
I could just as easily say -

However, there is nothing in the theory of evolution requiring that a loaf of bread, a guitar, a small German ferris wheel and a bottle of lubricant is NOT involved.

But if anyone said that, we'd regard them as loony. Why should I therefore respect those with an equally irrational belief in a deity?


Its like Betrand Russell's analogy of a teapot. Except teapots (plus bread, guitar, ferris wheels and lubricant) don't cause wars.

yugo: You guys don't believe anything of the first couple chapters? You don't believe anything about the garden of Eden, or the apple, or the creation at all? Wow, way to pick and choose...
No. Those 'guys' see those chapters as allagorical(sp?), not as cold hard fact. Catholics, for all the faults of the institution, actually engage their brain and question things. Rather than simply accept what they have been told.
TGL: Oops, forgot, that wasn't in the bible... nevrmind ^_^ Hoped no one would pick you up on that didn't you? :wink: However it raises an interesting point. If your don't view the 'days' as days (ie 24 hours), but rather as unspecified periods of time. The creation story is reasonably believable (although not totally, but given the time it was written, surprisingly accurate).

Texascotsirish: Whaddya mean Christians don't believe in the Ice Age? Umm... because the Ice Age did not happen in the last 6000 years... This belief beggers belief. I will ask you to contact a geologist, who should explain it far better than I can.Umm first off... a Christian that doesn't believe the important parts of the Bible? I can understand not believing minor misintepretations, but not believing in whole chapters? That seems a little weird...

As for the 1000 to 1 thing, I'm sorry, i get confused easily... mormons have 4 standard scriptual works, rather than 1 (the bible)

And I never said the ice Age DIDN'T happen, I said it didn't happen in the last 6000 years.

Umm first off... a Christian that doesn't believe the important parts of the Bible? I can understand not believing minor misintepretations, but not believing in whole chapters? That seems a little weird...

They don't belive in it as fact, but do you belive all of Jesus's parable? You shouldn't, they are stories, but they are stories with meaning.

And I never said the ice Age DIDN'T happen, I said it didn't happen in the last 6000 years.

But you previously alluded to believing the earth was only 6000 years old. Surely this means you don't think the ice age happened at all?

Oh so it's lets bash the christanes. You guys are so hypocritical. You argue aganst racism

Because they persecute others because of their irrational beliefs

and nazism

Because they persecute others because of their irrational beliefs

and state they are evil

we do?

but you deem it okay to call christans morons.

Because they persecute others because of their irrational beliefs


You guys have no idea about church doctrines but you love to talk about christanes.

At least we can spell it. And you totally assume we have know idea about church doctrines and dogma. You have any evidence that we're not all ex-priests/ religious historians/ scholars?


I am a devot Roman Catholic and I am offended.

There's a suprise. 'You lot' get offended at anything, seemingly irrationally. Why offended? You have an idea. Ideas are there to be questioned. We questioned it. You're only offended because your idea blatantly doesn't stand up to questioning but you're too afraid to acknowledge it as false.


So give your reason on why we are morons.

You believe in the doctrine of the Unity of the Trinity, something that is completely impossible by the laws of logic, and you fail to produce one piece of evidence as to why it is capable of breaking those laws. Such total lack of academic and logical understanding would be pretty much enough to deem you 'morons'


You sound like that bigoted @$$hole Rahilse. You have no idea on what you are talking about so shut up. And besides not all of us believe in creationism you guys just love to generlize. You guys are a bunch of whiney bigoted bastards. By the way I appleud my fellow christanse who stood up to these commie bullys.
Ah yes. Damn us commies.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Have you never heard of the Atlantis story. It explains many things, like why there are pyramids on both sides of the Atlantic, why there are indigenous people on both side and why there is no proof it never existed.

Actually there is a push in the Archeological community to try and convince people of this. Not nessicerally of Atlantis, but that there was a powerful Civilisation that we dont know That was on the east side of atlantic and had cultural influence on the west. If the east and West were having a cultural exchange, It would explain a lot. But This assues there were people already there, not that all the West Atlanteans came from ... Atlantis.

Being a Native American (Cherokee & Aztec) and a Christian (R. Catholic *just confirmed YAY*) i believe i have a good bead on this topic. i also think of myself as a creation-evolutionist. there is no reason to think that both couldn't have happened. even the Pope said as much. most Indians believe that they were created by Great Spirit, who came upon the earth and created all life. personnally, i believe that indians migrated from the land bridge from NE asia back in the ice age. i also believe in the ice age. while people will be all "That's not in the Bible, you heretic!" it isn't not said in the Bilbe.besides, the sun and stars weren't created until the third day, so who's to say how long those first days actually were? if the human race did begin from two people, it is logical to conclude that the descendants would migrate, and that is exactly what the land bridge theory is. as for the age of the earth, didn't they find the earth to be somewhere around 4.2 billion yrs? sounds right, considering that the earth was a giant fireball of volcanic ash and deadly gasses.

I really think that it is sort of silly that people even needed an answer to this question

The land bridge theory is very viable. It could have beem made of ice, or, it amy have been real land that was sunk by tectonic activity.

The Norwegian man mentioned earlier sailed from Morocco to South America in a reed boat, i believe it was. The simple fact of doing this, with maps or not, opens this idea up for examination.

Another theory is that the Indians are descendant from Polynesians. This also is very possible.

The theory of evolution was mentioned earlier. I thinkthat its is all a bunch of hogwash. It is exactly the same as saying that if you take a watch and smash it to pieces, put it in bag, put it in machine and shake it for 2 trillion years, it will come out without a scratch and have perfect time.

Also, if you have read about the proteins, you wil know that the possible combinations of proteins are immense. There are more possible combinations than atoms in the galaxy. I would say the universe, but the universe might be infinite.

As for the people who have never heard about Jesus, the Bible says that " ... all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
It also says ".... the wages of sin is death." So we are all worthy of death, since we are sinful creatures, and God is a completely pure God.

I really think that it is sort of silly that people even needed an answer to this question

The land bridge theory is very viable. It could have beem made of ice, or, it amy have been real land that was sunk by tectonic activity.

The Norwegian man mentioned earlier sailed from Morocco to South America in a reed boat, i believe it was. The simple fact of doing this, with maps or not, opens this idea up for examination.

Another theory is that the Indians are descendant from Polynesians. This also is very possible.

The theory of evolution was mentioned earlier. I thinkthat its is all a bunch of hogwash. It is exactly the same as saying that if you take a watch and smash it to pieces, put it in bag, put it in machine and shake it for 2 trillion years, it will come out without a scratch and have perfect time.

Also, if you have read about the proteins, you wil know that the possible combinations of proteins are immense. There are more possible combinations than atoms in the galaxy. I would say the universe, but the universe might be infinite.

As for the people who have never heard about Jesus, the Bible says that " ... all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
It also says ".... the wages of sin is death." So we are all worthy of death, since we are sinful creatures, and God is a completely pure God.

I really think that it is sort of silly that people even needed an answer to this question

The land bridge theory is very viable. It could have beem made of ice, or, it amy have been real land that was sunk by tectonic activity.

The Norwegian man mentioned earlier sailed from Morocco to South America in a reed boat, i believe it was. The simple fact of doing this, with maps or not, opens this idea up for examination.

Another theory is that the Indians are descendant from Polynesians. This also is very possible.

The theory of evolution was mentioned earlier. I thinkthat its is all a bunch of hogwash. It is exactly the same as saying that if you take a watch and smash it to pieces, put it in bag, put it in machine and shake it for 2 trillion years, it will come out without a scratch and have perfect time.

Also, if you have read about the proteins, you wil know that the possible combinations of proteins are immense. There are more possible combinations than atoms in the galaxy. I would say the universe, but the universe might be infinite.

As for the people who have never heard about Jesus, the Bible says that " ... all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
It also says ".... the wages of sin is death." So we are all worthy of death, since we are sinful creatures, and God is a completely pure God.

OK, the seven-days/creation theory has NOTHING to do with this, since our reference point for MAN would have to be Noah... because the whole world was flooded, and only the people on the boat survived.

So, considering that the whole noah thing was around 6000 BC to 4000 BC... how does the Ice Age fit in to that?!

well, the standard protestant interpretation that i learned back in the day was that noah's flood was either a more localized flood or a mythical one that was used allegorically. biblical literalism runs into a ton of problems pretty damn quick, which is why all the smart churches dropped it decades ago.

I heard someone suggest they might have come over on boats... heh... and yet, they still say the Mormons' story is rediculous.. you know, that one where they came over on a boat :P

except that the boats in question would be more like kayaks, and would have belonged to people making short hops along the coast between northeastern asia and north america some 15 to 30 thousand years ago while hunting seals and fishing.

the mormon story isn't ridiculous because it suggests that people crossed oceans in boats. its ridiculous because there were no horses or chariots or elephants or wheat or barley in the americas during the timeframe in question. it is ridiculous because native peoples have been here for at least ten thousand years and are not descended from a handful of jewish people that came over in 600 bce, as both linguistic and genetic evidence easily shows. simply put, it is ridiculous because there is no archaeological evidence to back up any of the claims in the book of mormon and a much that flatly contradicts it.

It is exactly the same as saying that if you take a watch and smash it to pieces, put it in bag, put it in machine and shake it for 2 trillion years, it will come out without a scratch and have perfect time. Um, no it isn't

As for the people who have never heard about Jesus, the Bible says that " ... all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
It also says ".... the wages of sin is death." So we are all worthy of death, since we are sinful creatures, and God is a completely pure God. That's nice, but surely that implies that if we never sin we live forever?

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

What...the fuck...are you talking about? I have never heard a Christian dispute if there was an Ice Age. You must be referring to a close minded minority who don't want to listen to facts and don't understand the Bible very well.

As for the seven days thing, obviously it wasn't seven literal days. I don't know a single Christian who believes that it was only seven true days, either. I am not saying that Christians are discrediting themselves in anyway, I am saying this because the general accepted belief is, as said many, many times in the Bible, God's time is not our time. In other words, several hundreds of thousands of years would be the course of seven days coming from God.

Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible as was instructed by God. If you would just take the time to read them and understand them, then you will catch things that will make you blink. Now, if you can get the first line in the Bible, "In the beginning, God," in your head and understand then you are well on your way to understanding. If you can get "In the beginning, God created," then you have it made. The rest of the Bible will come very easily to you.

Creationist do belive that there was an ice age, just not a global one. After the flood the world would have gone through quite a drastic climate change. During this time not only was there climatic swings resulting in the forming of the ice caps, but also alot of seismic activity leading to the further splitting up of the continents.
Every cultural group in the world has a story of an ancient flood that killed everyone but one family.

If your curious as to what some scientist think check out www.icr.org

Wel sure If you dont count the Fundinazi's as Christians.

Whats funny is, A day really could be as long as you want. Because BEfore the earth was Turning, There were no days :D

It is interesting to think how Life could have arisen in the Universe. But Chemicals exist in nature. Who knows what Radiation or a Lightning strike could do. DNA is a very curious substance. How can a chemical be so focused towards reproducing itself.

"You believe in the doctrine of the Unity of the Trinity, something that is completely impossible by the laws of logic, and you fail to produce one piece of evidence as to why it is capable of breaking those laws. Such total lack of academic and logical understanding would be pretty much enough to deem you 'morons'"

Right...and this scientific deduction has come about after a grand ten minutes of casual conversation on an Atheists United chatboard? Although impressive, it's not quite up to what we in the business of Truth would call "objective reasoning." Capable of breaking what laws, exactly? The same laws that say water can only exist in one form...? Right, b/c everyone knows that liquid water, ice and vapor are SO three different things...hmm, not so much (pff, the guy who called it all H2O was so wrong!). I don't like to be sarcastic, but I don't like being condescended to by a Holier-than-Thou atheist either (how is that possible anyway, holy atheist??). If you'd like to debate this on more civil terms, I would be happy to oblige, though you'll have to check that chip at the door first (yeah, the one on your shoulder).

"You believe in the doctrine of the Unity of the Trinity, something that is completely impossible by the laws of logic, and you fail to produce one piece of evidence as to why it is capable of breaking those laws. Such total lack of academic and logical understanding would be pretty much enough to deem you 'morons'"

Right...and this scientific deduction has come about after a grand ten minutes of casual conversation on an Atheists United chatboard? Although impressive, it's not quite up to what we in the business of Truth would call "objective reasoning." Capable of breaking what laws, exactly? The same laws that say water can only exist in one form...? Right, b/c everyone knows that liquid water, ice and vapor are SO three different things...hmm, not so much (pff, the guy who called it all H2O was so wrong!). I don't like to be sarcastic, but I don't like being condescended to by a Holier-than-Thou atheist either (how is that possible anyway, holy atheist??). If you'd like to debate this on more civil terms, I would be happy to oblige, though you'll have to check that chip at the door first (yeah, the one on your shoulder).

As for the people who have never heard about Jesus, the Bible says that " ... all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
It also says ".... the wages of sin is death." So we are all worthy of death, since we are sinful creatures, and God is a completely pure God. That's nice, but surely that implies that if we never sin we live forever?

Since I can't commit sin then I'm immortal, right?

BTW I'm partially Native american.

Jim

As for the people who have never heard about Jesus, the Bible says that " ... all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
It also says ".... the wages of sin is death." So we are all worthy of death, since we are sinful creatures, and God is a completely pure God. That's nice, but surely that implies that if we never sin we live forever?

Since I can't commit sin then I'm immortal, right?

BTW I'm partially Native american.

Jim

Apparently. But why can you sin?

I don't know where you get your "christian believers" from, but I myself am a christian and I believe there was an ice age. Get all opinions before you go shooting your mouth of like that CC.

Stick to the bloody topic! This is not a Creationism vs. evolution Debate!

This is not a debate about whether the Ice Age actually happened!

This is a debate with a simple question: Where did the Indians come from, given that the Ice Age did not happen After the flood, and the tower of Babel happened after the continental divide, and they didn't come over on a boat as the Mormons Suggested.

I heard one viable theory, that they came across the straight on short-range boats. OK, I'll buy that for debate's sake. But then the same guy tried to convince me that in 600 BC no one had the ability to make ocean-faring boats... which Kinda made me want to pass him off as an idiot... but oh well.

Robonic: I don't know where you get your "christian believers" from, but I myself am a christian and I believe there was an ice age. Get all opinions before you go shooting your mouth of like that CC.

DID YOU EVEN HEAR ME? DO YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THE ICE AGE HAPPENED IN THE 6000 YEARS SINCE NOAH'S FLOOD?

Come on!

The land bridge theory is very viable. It could have beem made of ice, or, it amy have been real land that was sunk by tectonic activity.

technically the land is still there, except that the ocean level rose 100 meters or so at the end of the ice age.

The Norwegian man mentioned earlier sailed from Morocco to South America in a reed boat, i believe it was. The simple fact of doing this, with maps or not, opens this idea up for examination.

Another theory is that the Indians are descendant from Polynesians. This also is very possible.

ah, thor heyerdahl. he opened up interesting possibilities, but the rest of the available evidence says that the kinds of voyages he took happened extremely rarely if at all.

and unfortunately for the proposed relationship between native americans and polynesians, the order of human occupation just doesn't fit. people have been in australia and papua new guinea for something on the order of 40-50 thousand years. humans have been in the americas for at least 10 thousand years, and probably more like 20 or 30 thousand. but the islands in between were not settled until much later. less than 3000 years ago for the oldest ones, and around 1600 years ago for the ones closet to the americas.

and that's not even getting into the genetic and linguistic evidence...

My Time to rant peoples!
#1 I am Roman Catholic!
#2 I also belive Science and God can Coexist
#3 I belive in Evolution, that the universe is 17 Billion years old, and God had a part in it.

Why must we Always be divied into extreams? Into camps of either "The world is 6000 years old, God created man, and Dinosaurs are a hoax"
Or
"Science Disproves God! You cannot call youself logical and belive in such foolishness as this 'God' Thing"

Why the Hell does it have to be either or? I Am Christian, I belive the world is round, that we had an Ice age, and that we evolved from promates (NOT monkeys, get it right) Now, Because of my faith, If you ask me "Well come on! Surely, a man of Science, you can't believe that such stupid things like people turning into Salt, or rivers running with blood actually happend, thats scientificlly imposible!"

Well DUH! Of course it is! But, well let me thing, God is ALL POWERFUL he 'created' our science, do you htink he has to obey its laws? Back then (in bible ages) you COULD do magic stuff, the piles of fire, the rain of frogs, because people back than didn't question it! They said "Oh my! it must be a God!" and accepted it! God is allowed to break the laws of physics!

Obviously things like that don't happen today now do they? Gods a lot more smart then to go around in 'Modern' times and turn people into pilers of salt, its just not practicle!

So, In summary... Catholics/Christians CAN belive in Science and God..
DEAL WITH IT!!! :evil:

This is a debate with a simple question: Where did the Indians come from, given that the Ice Age did not happen After the flood, and the tower of Babel happened after the continental divide, and they didn't come over on a boat as the Mormons Suggested.

there's your problem. anyone that could give a coherent answer doesn't believe that a global flood took place in the past 6000 years.

CC, were you thinking of 2 Peter 3:8 when you mentioned one day not necessarily being one Earth day?

Nian: yeah, that's it!

Crossroads: Umm... yeah, that's nice that you know how to hijack threads really well... but do you care to answer the question? i have heard no serious theories yet, and the Mormons' story is the only one that makes any sense so far.

I don't care if you make it up, just as long as it makes some kind of sense.

The land bridge theory doesn't work, because the Ice Age would have been long over before the flood that killed everyone not in Noah's ark.

Or, for some reason, do you believe that the great flood in fact did not kill everyone and everything on the Earth that wasn't in that ark?

Stick to the bloody topic! This is not a Creationism vs. evolution Debate!

This is not a debate about whether the Ice Age actually happened!

This is a debate with a simple question: Where did the Indians come from, given that the Ice Age did not happen After the flood, and the tower of Babel happened after the continental divide, and they didn't come over on a boat as the Mormons Suggested.

I heard one viable theory, that they came across the straight on short-range boats. OK, I'll buy that for debate's sake. But then the same guy tried to convince me that in 600 BC no one had the ability to make ocean-faring boats... which Kinda made me want to pass him off as an idiot... but oh well.

Robonic: I don't know where you get your "christian believers" from, but I myself am a christian and I believe there was an ice age. Get all opinions before you go shooting your mouth of like that CC.

DID YOU EVEN HEAR ME? DO YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THE ICE AGE HAPPENED IN THE 6000 YEARS SINCE NOAH'S FLOOD?

Come on!

Well, OK. To be blunt. You could be wrong in your beliefs. No flood, no tower of Babel, no Native American Jews. You have so far given no evidence that there were old Jewish cultures in America.

FS: "there's your problem. anyone that could give a coherent answer doesn't believe that a global flood took place in the past 6000 years."

Ask any theologen, or anyone on the search for Noah's Ark... they'll all tell you it was within 6000 years. I just watched a whole special about it on the discovery channel.

Well, OK. To be blunt. You could be wrong in your beliefs. No flood, no tower of Babel, no Native American Jews. That's it. Get off my thread.

This topic was asking CHRISTIANS, who ALREADY BELIEVE IN THE FLOOD AND TOWER.

You are doing nothing to contribute to this thread.

FS: "there's your problem. anyone that could give a coherent answer doesn't believe that a global flood took place in the past 6000 years."

Ask any theologen, or anyone on the search for Noah's Ark... they'll all tell you it was within 6000 years. I just watched a whole special about it on the discovery channel.

Your as bad as TRA. Just because something is one TV doesn't make it true. There was a thread recently dealing with how the Noah's Ark thing was false. It is all very well to ask a theologian, things of this magnitude would leave marks on the Earth. It simply doesn't stand up to scientific method.

Where would Native Americans appear within the flood theory? Perhaps the lost tribe of Jews?

Lets Argue mormanism now shall we?

**All cultures have the flood myth**

Jim

FS: "there's your problem. anyone that could give a coherent answer doesn't believe that a global flood took place in the past 6000 years."

Ask any theologen, or anyone on the search for Noah's Ark... they'll all tell you it was within 6000 years. I just watched a whole special about it on the discovery channel.

Your as bad as TRA. Just because something is one TV doesn't make it true. There was a thread recently dealing with how the Noah's Ark thing was false. It is all very well to ask a theologian, things of this magnitude would leave marks on the Earth. It simply doesn't stand up to scientific method.That's it. Get off my thread.

This topic was asking CHRISTIANS, who ALREADY BELIEVE IN THE FLOOD AND TOWER.

You are doing nothing to contribute to this thread.

Crossroads: Umm... yeah, that's nice that you know how to hijack threads really well... but do you care to answer the question? i have heard no serious theories yet, and the Mormons' story is the only one that makes any sense so far
Well Sorry for the Outburst CC, I just was getting tired of A lot of people in this thread dividing Christians into Extrams on Both side. I really just had to make the point that you can be Logical and Scientific, and belive in Religion. :)

As such, I belive Native Americans are a Sub group from ancient Asian liniage, The common traits between physical apperance as well as primal Cultural Beliefs. An ice age about 14,000 most likely brought about an 'Ice' bridge (not land, name is a mis-nomer) That allowed Wondering tribes of the time, most likely following Seal and whale migrations, into the Alaska area where they desemnated int the North and South American Regions.

Where would Native Americans appear within the flood theory? Perhaps the lost tribe of Jews?

Lets Argue mormanism now shall we?

**All cultures have the flood myth**

JimThe question is not directed at Mormons, it is directed at Christians.

Tell me how it happened according to Christianity, THEN we'll discuss what problems, if any, are within the mormon account.

Crossroads: Umm... yeah, that's nice that you know how to hijack threads really well... but do you care to answer the question? i have heard no serious theories yet, and the Mormons' story is the only one that makes any sense so far
Well Sorry for the Outburst CC, I just was getting tired of A lot of people in this thread dividing Christians into Extrams on Both side. I really just had to make the point that you can be Logical and Scientific, and belive in Religion. :)

As such, I belive Native Americans are a Sub group from ancient Asian liniage, The common traits between physical apperance as well as primal Cultural Beliefs. An ice age about 14,000 most likely brought about an 'Ice' bridge (not land, name is a mis-nomer) That allowed Wondering tribes of the time, most likely following Seal and whale migrations, into the Alaska area where they desemnated int the North and South American Regions.Unfortunately, i don't know of any theologen who suggests thjat the flood could have happened that long ago... you can trace back through the lifetimes a great deal and estimate around 4000-6000 BC... not 14,000...

Where would Native Americans appear within the flood theory? Perhaps the lost tribe of Jews?

Lets Argue mormanism now shall we?

**All cultures have the flood myth**

JimThe question is not directed at Mormons, it is directed at Christians.

Tell me how it happened according to Christianity, THEN we'll discuss what problems, if any, are within the mormon account.

CC: I am a student of religion, myths, beliefs etc.

Mormons are christians: they believe in christ.


Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

FS: "there's your problem. anyone that could give a coherent answer doesn't believe that a global flood took place in the past 6000 years."

Ask any theologen, or anyone on the search for Noah's Ark... they'll all tell you it was within 6000 years. I just watched a whole special about it on the discovery channel.

Your as bad as TRA. Just because something is one TV doesn't make it true. There was a thread recently dealing with how the Noah's Ark thing was false. It is all very well to ask a theologian, things of this magnitude would leave marks on the Earth. It simply doesn't stand up to scientific method.That's it. Get off my thread.

This topic was asking CHRISTIANS, who ALREADY BELIEVE IN THE FLOOD AND TOWER.

You are doing nothing to contribute to this thread.

Rightio then. But I'm dying to know this. Why are you only inviting Christians (ones who believe in a literal Bible at that) to debated with you. Are you worried that your case does stand up in the modern world?

Well, Mixing historians with Theologens, Some say that The 'Flood Myth/Story/ was brought about when the Mediteraining filed up, Evidently about 10,000 (or more, Im sourceless right now) years ago, The Mediteraning Sea was, empty, A small land Dam at the Now Strights of Gerbralter, was keeping back the ocean, leaving the Mediteraning Sea, empty and dry. The Flood story stems when this small dam was erroded, Imagine the people living in this region, The vast hundreds of Square miles of valleys and canyons would have filled up with water in about 4 weeks (or about 40days, go fig!) such a masisve Event, while beyond the 6000 year mark, would have been able to be retold throughout the world as a Fundimental Flood Story.

FS: "there's your problem. anyone that could give a coherent answer doesn't believe that a global flood took place in the past 6000 years."

Ask any theologen, or anyone on the search for Noah's Ark... they'll all tell you it was within 6000 years. I just watched a whole special about it on the discovery channel.

was it the black sea flood one or a different one? i know that the lutherans weren't pushing for a literal interpretation of the flood story when i was there, and i've heard that the catholics don't anymore either. and with good reason - the flood story is impossible on sooooo many levels.

Well, Mixing historians with Theologens, Some say that The 'Flood Myth/Story/ was brought about when the Mediteraining filed up, Evidently about 10,000 (or more, Im sourceless right now) years ago, The Mediteraning Sea was, empty, A small land Dam at the Now Strights of Gerbralter, was keeping back the ocean, leaving the Mediteraning Sea, empty and dry. The Flood story stems when this small dam was erroded, Imagine the people living in this region, The vast hundreds of Square miles of valleys and canyons would have filled up with water in about 4 weeks (or about 40days, go fig!) such a masisve Event, while beyond the 6000 year mark, would have been able to be retold throughout the world as a Fundimental Flood Story.

minor point - its the black sea, not the mediterranean, that flooded since humans have been around. the med hasn't been dry in 5 million years or so. but the evidence linking the black sea flood to any particular flood story is weak. for example, there is no evidence of people moving (and carrying the story with them) from that area to mesopotamia. and we know for an absolute fact that the noah story is a modified version of the gilgamesh epic.

and we know for an absolute fact that the noah story is a modified version of the gilgamesh epic. Oooo... I wish you hadn't of said that "We know for an -Absoulte Fact-" Always seems t o come back to haunt you...

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

:x As a Native American, I can honestly tell you that we are descended from the Monguls of Asia and that if you look at our faces compared to those of Mongolians you can tell that there are certain simularities. (BTW this is not bashing anyone or ethnicity at all) Remember people high cheek bones, some with slanted eyes, flat faces, DEPENDANT ON HORSES (In the olden days). Powatan Indians of VA

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

Are you suggesting the Church stole errr borrowed from other cultures? :shock: :P

i also think of myself as a creation-evolutionist. there is no reason to think that both couldn't have happened. even the Pope said as much.

No offence, but I think the Pope dropped the ball on this one. To say that both Creation and Evolution worked together is to say either:

1. that your deity is either

A. not powerful enough to create ex nihilo, or
B. lied about what he/she/it did,

or

2. that your theory of Evolution is not strong enough to work on its own scientific merits.

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.


Jim, I have never heard any flood myth in my own culture. Perhaps this is innacurate? 128 million people not believing in a flood myth that has no evidence is certainly a damning aspect. I suspect on closer inspection, we could find plenty of cultures without a flood myth at all.

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

Are you suggesting the Church stole errr borrowed from other cultures? :shock: :P

I am suggesting that all humans are the same, no matter where you go or what you believe.

Jim

DP oops.

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

Are you suggesting the Church stole errr borrowed from other cultures? :shock: :P

c'mon people like this is a new idea. look at Easter and Christmas. :lol:

A common misunderstanding about the "Seven days" theory is that it actually took 7 days by modern reckoning... total crap. The Lord's time is 1 day>1000 years earth time, according to the new Testament.

Right ... except your exigesis neglects that the Torah was written in Hebrew, in historical narrative, and the New Testament was written in Greek (the specific passage you cite, II Peter 3:8, being metaphorical in nature). More damning is that when the Hebrew yom is used in the context where "an evening and a morning" are mentioned, it means a standard twenty-four hour day.

I really just had to make the point that you can be Logical and Scientific, and belive in Religion. :).

Unless of course you Live in the Middle Ages ;)

Okay, in the book of Genesis, there's the story of the Tower of Babel. Basically, all the people in the world mirgrated to one spot and attempted to build a tower to Heaven. God saw what they were doing, made them speak different languages(they all spoke one langauge before then) and they dispersed, moving with people who spoke their language.

So then the Native Americans moved over Beringia and settled in the Americas. Then the Biblical Flood came and screwed up the Earth and Beringia sank beneath the ocean and the contineants broke apart.


Except that the Flood had to come before Babel, since it was meant to destroy all of the corruption that had G-d so pissed off.

and we know for an absolute fact that the noah story is a modified version of the gilgamesh epic. Oooo... I wish you hadn't of said that "We know for an -Absoulte Fact-" Always seems t o come back to haunt you...

alright, maybe not absolute - they both could be based on the same even earlier source. but our copy of the gilgamesh epic (which is by no means the original) is older than moses by nearly a thousand years. its flood story contains many of the same basic elements and a lot of the details as the noah story. and it comes from the place where abram came from. the two are quite definitely related.

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.


Jim, I have never heard any flood myth in my own culture. Perhaps this is innacurate? 128 million people not believing in a flood myth that has no evidence is certainly a damning aspect. I suspect on closer inspection, we could find plenty of cultures without a flood myth at all.

OK Many Native cultures Do have a flood myth (along with the unfortunate *white god from across the sea* myth.) That one killed a lot of my ancestors on both sides.

Jim

and we know for an absolute fact that the noah story is a modified version of the gilgamesh epic.

alright, maybe not absolute - they both could be based on the same even earlier source. but our copy of the gilgamesh epic (which is by no means the original) is older than moses by nearly a thousand years. its flood story contains many of the basic same elements and a lot of the details as the noah story. and it comes from the place where abram came from. the two are quite definitely related.

Abra(ha)m was from Ur of the Chaldeans.

Secondly, Moses led the Exodus nearly a thousand years after the Deluge. The fact that he wasn't able to write it down until he was born proves nothing.

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

actually, not all. but certainly a lot. probably because floods happen pretty much everywhere, and every once in a while a really big flood happens. makes for a good story to tell the grandkids.

as for the sumerian mythology winding up in the bible...those damn bunch of plagiarists

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

Are you suggesting the Church stole errr borrowed from other cultures? :shock: :P

c'mon people like this is a new idea. look at Easter and Christmas. :lol:

Looking to go to hell Roan? :lol:

Jim

i hate the way that people go around following what other people say, and people beleive in god just becuase some idiot in dress goes up and the alter and says there is a god, ill tell what, its all that wine those people drink in church, and that is exactly why i dont promote spirituality in my country and if you wanna join me in me quest to get rid of god and his hippocritical religion, check me out under un catagory physcotic dictators

from your freindly former catholic radical

Free Soviets:

Let me repeat this one more time: ALL cultures have the flood myth. It is not limited to any one culture or region.

The Sumerians have a creation myth that can almost be read as if it were Genesis.

Jim

actually, not all. but certainly a lot. probably because floods happen pretty much everywhere, and every once in a while a really big flood happens. makes for a good story to tell the grandkids.

as for the sumerian mythology winding up in the bible...those damn bunch of plagiarists

God says it, humans write it.

Plagiarism.

Jim

i also think of myself as a creation-evolutionist. there is no reason to think that both couldn't have happened. even the Pope said as much.

No offence, but I think the Pope dropped the ball on this one. To say that both Creation and Evolution worked together is to say either:

1. that your deity is either

A. not powerful enough to create ex nihilo, or
B. lied about what he/she/it did,

or

2. that your theory of Evolution is not strong enough to work on its own scientific merits.

God: If you do too much people get dependant on you, If you do too little they lose hope. You have to use a Light touch, Like A safe cracker, or apick pocket"
Bender: Or a guy who burns down his bar to collect his insurance
God: Yeah if he makes it look like an electrical thing.
If you do things right. People wont be sure you've done anything at all

Its impossible for there to have been a global flood. Theres not enough water on the eearth, or under it or anywhere. He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.

Abra(ha)m was from Ur of the Chaldeans.

a sentence that tells us important things about when the bible was actually written. the chaldeans don't show up in ur until 900 bce or so. which happens to be long after the death of moses, and even longer after the death of abraham - assuming either of them were ever real individuals.

How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.

easily. you either give up literalism or resort to a whole pile of unlikely and unwritten magic tricks that still don't work.

How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.

easily. you either give up literalism or resort to a whole pile of unlikely and unwritten magic tricks that still don't work.

But Magic tricks DO work 8) :lol:

Jim

Its impossible for there to have been a global flood. Theres not enough water on the eearth, or under it or anywhere. He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.

I DECLARE THE FUNDAMENTALISTS OFFICIALLY 0WN3D.

:x As a Native American, I can honestly tell you that we are descended from the Monguls of Asia and that if you look at our faces compared to those of Mongolians you can tell that there are certain simularities. (BTW this is not bashing anyone or ethnicity at all) Remember people high cheek bones, some with slanted eyes, flat faces, DEPENDANT ON HORSES (In the olden days). Powatan Indians of VA

Prehistoric horses were never domesticated in North America.

The horses used by Natives of the plains were ones that came with the Spanish and had been bred and traded increasingly northward.

I wrote that? Damn. Anyway. The Fundamentalists come back at this.
See regular christians are fairly passive and dont worry about this sort of stuff, They are content to have Faith. But the Fundinazi's are all obsessed with this. They shill out for Reasearch and have Christians Scientists trying to validate thier position. They say that the Speed of light has been Decreasing ever since the universe was created and stabilised about 300 years ago Convieniently about when telescopes were invented. (Please note: These ones arent the Hardest of the Hardcore Fundamnetalists)

Oooo! The flood. My favorite ;)

The intertwining of many of the flood myths does happen. You can see it in the Ziusudra Epic, the bible, the Epic of Atrahasis, and the Epic of Gilgamesh (to name a few). A good site to look at how they compare is here:

http://www.flood-myth.com/

I do not believe in the validity of Noah's Flood. If there was a global "flood", then it would have affected the costal areas. At the end of the ice age, the sea did rise quickly Maybe certain peoples set off in their boats. Maybe they sailed off to new areas, maybe they stayed in the general vicinity. Who knows. All I kow is that there are too many inconsistancies for the Noah story to be 100% accurate.


Where did the Native Americans come from (according to Christians)? IO agree with the Tower a Bable story... at least that is how I was taught when I was young.

*sigh* The whole "To g-d, a day is to a thousand years" deal?? yeah. And Satan placed dinosaur bones in the earth to confuse us as well. :roll:

As a Christian whenever I have a question I do my best to look to Bible for the answer. Using that and prayer I always get the answer I need. This is simply no different.

Someone mentioned this before but I wanted to give the complete text...hope it helps

Genesis 11


The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [1] they found a plain in Shinar [2] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [3] -because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

First of all people, use some logic. Young Earth theory has so many flaws in it it's ridiculous. You eliminate all the fossil evidence of dinosaurs, trilobites, and every other thing, eliminate fossil fuels (since oil takes millions of years of compression to form, it couldn't possibly have been formed in 6,000 years). The Ice Age lasted well over 10,000 years, evidenced by geologic proof in reading rock formations with glacial striations in them.

Young Earth theory simply doesn't stand up to logic and science.

Second of all, Noah's Ark is simply a plagiarised story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Epic of Gilgamesh is documeted to have been written about the time of Abraham in what was then known as Babylon (modern-day Iraq). This would be in approximately the year 3,000 BCE. The Exodus (according to historical records) occurred in the year circa 1446 BCE. The likelihood of the two stories matching up is virtually nil. As well, if there were a global flood...where's the geological evidence? There is none. http://www.piney.com/Gilgamesh.html if you want to know more about the Flood stories.

Third...the Indians. Based on migration patterns and evolution of corn agricultural history, etc. there is firm evidence that the Indians HAD to cross across the Bering Land Bridge and once the glaciers receded and water levels rose, they began to migrate further and further south to find resources and simply due to the human nature to migrate. It is possible that some may have come by boat but it is extremely unlikely that there was a mass migration that would simply have been entirely undocumented. If there was any movement across the oceans it would most likely have been coastal traders or fishermen that simply got caught in the currents and moved out to sea and across, much in the way Columbus did in 1492 CE (catching the tradewinds).

Fourth. To say that the Indians were around when continental drift began (which is in itself a fallacy of geology, continental drift began before the continents even fully solidified) is completely ludicrous. For anyone to have been around then would have required them to be around 3.5 billion years ago and for their ancestors to somehow be able to survive without food, water, or protection from the sun, living in a sea of molten rock. This is ridiculous in every sense of the word.

Fifth and finally, People...please PLEASE PLEASE stop jumping logic bridges!! Don't say "the Indians are there cause they hopped on the backs of some dinosaurs cause I said so and that's how it happened." is idiotic. Don't be stupid people; use some common sense. If you want to have a debate then I'm all for that. But if you have a valid point, by all means express it and GIVE SOME EVIDENCE. If you have a ludicrous and obviously false thing to say then don't bother. If you have a point that may be widely unaccepted, at least give some evidence. But don't hop logic bridges.

For more about the proper way to debate then go here http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30548

:wink:

I believe in the seven-day creation of the universe and that men used to live to be over nine hundred years old. If you examine the lifespans of the line of Seth up until the line of Abram/Abraham, then should should notice two things about their ages: Life expectancy dropped dramatically after the Flood, and it dropped again after Babel was destroyed and the earth divided. I have seen evidence of Old Testament stories being played out in ancient religious rituals as far away Japan is from Israel. There has been African-looking statues of Olmecs found in Mexico. Just because Columbus sailed to America in 1492 does not mean he was the first person there with a Jewish or Christian understanding of who God is. I assumed the Europeans considered the world just as large as it was mapped out according to the conquests of Alexander the Great, but it was the ancient Israelites, not the European Christians, whom God sent into exile in the world. Who knows how far they went? ~ Michael.

As a Christian whenever I have a question I do my best to look to Bible for the answer. Using that and prayer I always get the answer I need. This is simply no different.

Someone mentioned this before but I wanted to give the complete text...hope it helps

Genesis 11


The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [1] they found a plain in Shinar [2] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [3] -because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.Not to diss your faith, but just for clarification: You believe God literally picked people up and threw them over an ocean to another continent?

I will say this one more time.

This
is
not
a
creationism
versus
evolution
debate.

The SOLE purpose of this thread, is to ask CHRISTIANS where Native Americans come from according to their theology.

So far, Sozo's 'they were picked up by God and relocated across the ocean to another continent while everybody else walked' theory is the only one that seems relatively believable.

No other Christian (non-mormon) has posted an alternative theory.

...

i told you what was acceptable christian belief within my church (back when i had one) too. the answer being that people got wherever they are however science says they did.

see, the prevailing view is that there are matters of fact and matters of faith. and it is best not to make matters of fact into matters of faith, because then when it turns out that you are wrong your religion looks stupid.

A faction that left the Tower of Babel migrated through China and Siberia, then across the land bridge where the Bering Straight is now.

*sigh* FS: Those two contradict. Bible Chronologists place the flood anywhere from 4000 to 6000 BC... far after any Ice Age could have revealed a land bridge.

If the Land (or Ice) bridge was melted or underwater before the flood even came... then how the crap could they have crossed it?

Not to mention the fact that the continents were still together until just before Babel... so the Land bridge wouldn't have even existed, it would be about 5-10,000 miles away.

or do you simply not believe in ALL of Christianity... cuz these are pretty important events... ones you can't just say they were 'exaggerated' or especially not 'made up.'

People were separated according to language at the tower of Babel. They did what anyone did at first. They grouped together according to language and ran for the hills. The entire world was gathered at Babel, so it would have been a strain, especially with diverse languages, to try to maintain a civil society where everyone could farm, buy and sell food, and survive. So they went their separate ways, and then God divided the earth. I am not sure whether He divided the earth at the same time He destroyed Babel or if He destroyed it after the people groups had moved away from each other. Plus there could have been major languages which broke up later into dialects. Most European languages are similar, as are Asian. ~ Michael.

People were separated according to language at the tower of Babel. They did what anyone did at first. They grouped together according to language and ran for the hills. The entire world was gathered at Babel, so it would have been a strain, especially with diverse languages, to try to maintain a civil society where everyone could farm, buy and sell food, and survive. So they went their separate ways, and then God divided the earth. I am not sure whether He divided the earth at the same time He destroyed Babel or if He destroyed it after the people groups had moved away from each other. Plus there could have been major languages which broke up later into dialects. Most European languages are similar, as are Asian. ~ Michael.Umm... but the dividing of the Earth happened before the tower of babel.

Earth divided in Genesis 10, Babel was in Genesis 11...

As a Christian whenever I have a question I do my best to look to Bible for the answer. Using that and prayer I always get the answer I need. This is simply no different.

Someone mentioned this before but I wanted to give the complete text...hope it helps

Genesis 11


The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [1] they found a plain in Shinar [2] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [3] -because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.Not to diss your faith, but just for clarification: You believe God literally picked people up and threw them over an ocean to another continent?

No, actually I don't. Infact no where does that passage suggest that God flung these folks have way across the word. It also does suggest he wiggled His nose and crossed His eyes and said "woop there ya be". Lets use a little logic. The probably traveled in whatever means they had at the time…no not Cadillac Escalades with spinners either! Much of the travel I suspect was done by foot but I don’t doubt they used boats and so on.

*sigh* FS: Those two contradict. Bible Chronologists place the flood anywhere from 4000 to 6000 BC... far after any Ice Age could have revealed a land bridge.

If the Land (or Ice) bridge was melted or underwater before the flood even came... then how the crap could they have crossed it?

Not to mention the fact that the continents were still together until just before Babel... so the Land bridge wouldn't have even existed, it would be about 5-10,000 miles away.

or do you simply not believe in ALL of Christianity... cuz these are pretty important events... ones you can't just say they were 'exaggerated' or especially not 'made up.'

i believe i also said that we weren't big on literal interpretations, especially of the earliest stories. noah's flood, the tower of babel, etc. are taken to be more or less allegorical. and the super long-lived genealogies are written off almost completely

People were separated according to language at the tower of Babel. They did what anyone did at first. They grouped together according to language and ran for the hills. The entire world was gathered at Babel, so it would have been a strain, especially with diverse languages, to try to maintain a civil society where everyone could farm, buy and sell food, and survive. So they went their separate ways, and then God divided the earth. I am not sure whether He divided the earth at the same time He destroyed Babel or if He destroyed it after the people groups had moved away from each other. Plus there could have been major languages which broke up later into dialects. Most European languages are similar, as are Asian. ~ Michael.Umm... but the dividing of the Earth happened before the tower of babel.

Earth divided in Genesis 10, Babel was in Genesis 11...

Gen. 10 is a family history.....

People were separated according to language at the tower of Babel. They did what anyone did at first. They grouped together according to language and ran for the hills. The entire world was gathered at Babel, so it would have been a strain, especially with diverse languages, to try to maintain a civil society where everyone could farm, buy and sell food, and survive. So they went their separate ways, and then God divided the earth. I am not sure whether He divided the earth at the same time He destroyed Babel or if He destroyed it after the people groups had moved away from each other. Plus there could have been major languages which broke up later into dialects. Most European languages are similar, as are Asian. ~ Michael.Umm... but the dividing of the Earth happened before the tower of babel.

Earth divided in Genesis 10, Babel was in Genesis 11...Nimrod, the leader of Babel, was the grandson of Ham. Peleg, the child associated with the division of the earth, was the great-great-grandson of Shem, Ham's brother. Therefore, Babel could have, and probably was, built before the earth was divided. ~ Michael.

silly mormons. yes, the story of some guy taking his family from jerusalem to land in the americas is one i believe, but many mormons dont realize that the mayans predate lehi and his journey. the mayans were already here when they arrived. the lamanites mixing with the mayans is one possible explanation for the change in skin color that they went through.

Not to diss your faith, but just for clarification: You believe God literally picked people up and threw them over an ocean to another continent?

I did that in Black&White sometimes. :oops:

As a Christian whenever I have a question I do my best to look to Bible for the answer. Using that and prayer I always get the answer I need. This is simply no different.

Someone mentioned this before but I wanted to give the complete text...hope it helps

Genesis 11


The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [1] they found a plain in Shinar [2] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [3] -because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.Not to diss your faith, but just for clarification: You believe God literally picked people up and threw them over an ocean to another continent?

No, actually I don't. Infact no where does that passage suggest that God flung these folks have way across the word. It also does suggest he wiggled His nose and crossed His eyes and said "woop there ya be". Lets use a little logic. The probably traveled in whatever means they had at the time…no not Cadillac Escalades with spinners either! Much of the travel I suspect was done by foot but I don’t doubt they used boats and so on.Oh, OK... so they left Babylon on a boat or two... right..

guess what... THAT'S WHAT THE MORMONS SAID! But nooo y'all were like "no, the mormons are stupid, we won't listen to those idiots" :P

Ok, I know you didn't say that, but others on this thread have.

As a Christian whenever I have a question I do my best to look to Bible for the answer. Using that and prayer I always get the answer I need. This is simply no different.

Someone mentioned this before but I wanted to give the complete text...hope it helps

Genesis 11


The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [1] they found a plain in Shinar [2] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [3] -because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.Not to diss your faith, but just for clarification: You believe God literally picked people up and threw them over an ocean to another continent?

No, actually I don't. Infact no where does that passage suggest that God flung these folks have way across the word. It also does suggest he wiggled His nose and crossed His eyes and said "woop there ya be". Lets use a little logic. The probably traveled in whatever means they had at the time…no not Cadillac Escalades with spinners either! Much of the travel I suspect was done by foot but I don’t doubt they used boats and so on.Oh, OK... so they left Babylon on a boat or two... right..

guess what... THAT'S WHAT THE MORMONS SAID! But nooo y'all were like "no, the mormons are stupid, we won't listen to those idiots" :P

Ok, I know you didn't say that, but others on this thread have.

I mean logically it makes sence...there were other boats in that time too. I mean there were fishers. Ya don't think they stood on the shore do ya.

I"m not saying that everyone went by boat, but it does make sence

Third...the Indians. Based on migration patterns and evolution of corn agricultural history, etc. there is firm evidence that the Indians HAD to cross across the Bering Land Bridge and once the glaciers receded and water levels rose, they began to migrate further and further south to find resources and simply due to the human nature to migrate. It is possible that some may have come by boat but it is extremely unlikely that there was a mass migration that would simply have been entirely undocumented. If there was any movement across the oceans it would most likely have been coastal traders or fishermen that simply got caught in the currents and moved out to sea and across, much in the way Columbus did in 1492 CE (catching the tradewinds). :wink:



If the Indians HAD to cross the Bering Land Bridge, then how did the central Pacific Islanders, i.e. Hawaiians, etc. get to their lands?

I think mankind expanding throughout the globe by walking, riding or boating (especially along coasts or island hopping). I also believe it would not require very many generations to cover the entire earth from any given starting place. War, famine and natural disasters are great motivators to pick up and move on.

I'm reminded of the copper and obsidian fish hooks I saw in native American burial mounds in Western Kentucky on the banks of the Mississippi. Neither material is normally found anywhere within at least 700 miles from that location and could have only made it through trade routes by land or water. They must have been very precious indeed to their owners.



For the tally, I am a Christian, don't believe in a young Earth, do believe in Adam, Noah and Babel, don't believe the lost Jewish tribe scenarios, do believe in a loving God and his Son who died for all our sins.


Oh, and I would recommend reading Mitchener's book on Hawaii as one scenario for ancient navigators.

Its impossible for there to have been a global flood. Theres not enough water on the eearth, or under it or anywhere.

Right. How stupid of us to believe that, since obviously with that much water coming down, the land configuration stayed exactly the same as it had been before throughout the entire ordeal. After the water subsided, everything was just like it had been before. So any theory that doesn't presuppose that the Earth always looked exactly as it does today is prima facie invalid, unless of course that theory is Evolution. Redefine the argument so that only you can win--classic Kobayashi Maru.

He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.

According to Relativity, time is affected by speed and gravity. Now assume a bounded universe with a definite centre. When the universe began expanding, matter passed through the event horizon, shrinking the event horizon until it became so small that, relative to a point sufficiently far away, time was at a virtual standstill on Sol-3. These parts of the universe age rapidly, equivalent to several billion years, while but minutes pass on Sol-3, which the Biblical account is framed to.

For more information, see Dr. D. Russell Humphreys (who has a Ph. D. in Physics from LSU), Starlight and Time, Master Books, Green Forest, AR, 1994.

the lamanites mixing with the mayans is one possible explanation for the change in skin color that they went through.

Have you photographs of the Mayans before and after this happened, or have you met them?

He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.Light was created before the stars were created. Therefore, the light between earth and the stars was there. ~ Michael.

I'm reminded of the copper and obsidian fish hooks I saw in native American burial mounds in Western Kentucky on the banks of the Mississippi. Neither material is normally found anywhere within at least 700 miles from that location and could have only made it through trade routes by land or water. They must have been very precious indeed to their owners.

yeah, the native americans had huge trade networks, especially during the era of the mound builder civilization. that copper most likely came from the shore of lake superior or from isle royale, and probably made its way there after going through cahokia.

I mean logically it makes sence...there were other boats in that time too. I mean there were fishers. Ya don't think they stood on the shore do ya.

You forget the most obvious example of seafaring vessels: the Ark itself :D

Of course, my pet peeve is people who think Noah's Ark was shaped like a modern boat, when an ark by definition (and by the Biblical account) is a rectangular prism. But still, the Ark in question was capable of surviving a sea voyage longer than a three-hour tour, so the logical extension is that ancient people had the technology.

He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.Light was created before the stars were created. Therefore, the light between earth and the stars was there. ~ Michael.

which amounts to saying god is playing a trick on us. god went out of his way to make the universe exactly as if it was really really old. seems unnecessary.

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"

I mean logically it makes sence...there were other boats in that time too. I mean there were fishers. Ya don't think they stood on the shore do ya.

You forget the most obvious example of seafaring vessels: the Ark itself :D

Of course, my pet peeve is people who think Noah's Ark was shaped like a modern boat, when an ark by definition (and by the Biblical account) is a rectangular prism. But still, the Ark in question was capable of surviving a sea voyage longer than a three-hour tour, so the logical extension is that ancient people had the technology.

well yeah...but I did use that on purpose. Thanks though

He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.Light was created before the stars were created. Therefore, the light between earth and the stars was there. ~ Michael.

If you take away all the light in the universe then you have darkness. You cannot take away the darkness, you can only add to it. Darkness is needed for light to propagate.

Jim

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"A person who refuses to believe in the supernatural cannot be answered from the Bible. ~ Michael.

He another Attempted Deviation. How to Christians Account for the Fact that we can See stars that are more than 7000 lightyears away? If the univserse were created 7000 years ago we wouldnt be able to see stars any further away than that.Light was created before the stars were created. Therefore, the light between earth and the stars was there. ~ Michael.If you take away all the light in the universe then you have darkness. You cannot take away the darkness, you can only add to it. Darkness is needed for light to propagate. JimDarkness is a non-thing. Light is a thing. You also can't see light. You see a light source or something the light strikes. You don't actually see light itself. ~ Michael.

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"A person who refuses to believe in the supernatural cannot be answered from the Bible. ~ Michael.I believe in the supernatural... but I have yet to hear one such supernatural theory.

Heck, I'd accept "he picked them up and put them there" as an answer... I just want AN answer, other than the mormon answer you guys refuse to accept.

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"

ok...here is a theory for you. NOT MY, HOWEVER I HAD HEARD THIS YEARS AGO...

At one time the earth was one big continent. At about the same time as the Tower of Babel and the division of the languages when God directed the people to scatter across the earth…that is when the continent broke apart to what we now see today….thus the different cultures and so on.

I wish I remembered all the details….

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"A person who refuses to believe in the supernatural cannot be answered from the Bible. ~ Michael.I believe in the supernatural... but I have yet to hear one such supernatural theory.

Heck, I'd accept "he picked them up and put them there" as an answer... I just want AN answer, other than the mormon answer you guys refuse to accept.

Why being a Mormon, do you insist on an answer other than the mormon one of they got there by boat. Is this your way of trying to prove that you guys are right? Is this your way of trying to convince us that you guys are not totally wacky?

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"

ok...here is a theory for you. NOT MY, HOWEVER I HAD HEARD THIS YEARS AGO...

At one time the earth was one big continent. At about the same time as the Tower of Babel and the division of the languages when God directed the people to scatter across the earth…that is when the continent broke apart to what we now see today….thus the different cultures and so on.

I wish I remembered all the details….Unfortunately, that happened a generation BEFORE the tower of Babel. That's all in genesis Chapter 10... Babel is in chapter 11

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"A person who refuses to believe in the supernatural cannot be answered from the Bible. ~ Michael.I believe in the supernatural... but I have yet to hear one such supernatural theory.

Heck, I'd accept "he picked them up and put them there" as an answer... I just want AN answer, other than the mormon answer you guys refuse to accept.

Why being a Mormon, do you insist on an answer other than the mormon one of they got there by boat. Is this your way of trying to prove that you guys are right? Is this your way of trying to convince us that you guys are not totally wacky?Dude, look over the post... everyone's been saying "They certainly didn't come over by boat, like those wacky/stupid/idiotic mormons said." And then they proceed to provide the only reasonable theory of "They came over on a boat"... just seems weird

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"

ok...here is a theory for you. NOT MY, HOWEVER I HAD HEARD THIS YEARS AGO...

At one time the earth was one big continent. At about the same time as the Tower of Babel and the division of the languages when God directed the people to scatter across the earth…that is when the continent broke apart to what we now see today….thus the different cultures and so on.

I wish I remembered all the details….Unfortunately, that happened a generation BEFORE the tower of Babel. That's all in genesis Chapter 10... Babel is in chapter 11No, it didn't. Nimrod, leader of Babel, was the grandson of Ham. Peleg, the child associated with the division of the earth, was the great-great-grandson of Ham's brother Shem. So if you are talking about generations, please keep your numbers straight. ~ Michael.

Why is a special rule and explanation required for the Native Americans, apart from the fact that the Mormons have their own special theory.

How do you account for the native peoples of Australia and Polynesia.

Why should they miss out on their own special prophet and book?

Ray...do you believe that the world is 6000 years old or do you believe it is much older. The Bible itself said that a day is like a thousand years to God. So it could infact be much older...giving way to some of these theories...

CC
You are taking the bible way too seriously: It is a work of fiction designed to teach one how to live.

I live a far simpler life.


Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"

ok...here is a theory for you. NOT MY, HOWEVER I HAD HEARD THIS YEARS AGO...

At one time the earth was one big continent. At about the same time as the Tower of Babel and the division of the languages when God directed the people to scatter across the earth…that is when the continent broke apart to what we now see today….thus the different cultures and so on.

I wish I remembered all the details….Unfortunately, that happened a generation BEFORE the tower of Babel. That's all in genesis Chapter 10... Babel is in chapter 11No, it didn't. Nimrod, leader of Babel, was the grandson of Ham. Peleg, the child associated with the division of the earth, was the great-great-grandson of Ham's brother Shem. So if you are talking about generations, please keep your numbers straight. ~ Michael.Yeah, umm:

Genesis Chapter 10:
25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

26 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah,

27 And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah,

28 And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba,

29 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan.

30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.

31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

And THEN chapter 11 talks about Babel... several generations later.

While CC and Love Poetry duke it out among themselves,

Im just wondering Why "Imagrating across a land bridge during an Ice-age" isn't a Valid theory? Because, it has nothing to do with people copming across it boats,

Why is a special rule and explanation required for the Native Americans, apart from the fact that the Mormons have their own special theory.

How do you account for the native peoples of Australia and Polynesia.

Why should they miss out on their own special prophet and book?

You're correct..we shouldn't sleight my cousins, the aborginines....here is the lowdown...we're coming out of Asia..We Indians were going...."Hey...we're going after Elk and they're heading south"...the Aussie aboriginines were going "No way dude....the waves are cresting at 10 feet swells off the Great Barrier Reef...we're heading to the beach for some sun and bbq"..damn Aussie Indians never did have their priorities straight...party over here...party over there...hehe

Ray...do you believe that the world is 6000 years old or do you believe it is much older. The Bible itself said that a day is like a thousand years to God. So it could infact be much older...giving way to some of these theories...I believe the Earth was created in a period of anywhere from 7 days, to 7000 years, to possibly even 7 billion years... that doesn't matter. Who knows, carbon dating may be right, or maybe Our Earth is made up of parts of another world... who knows, who cares.

However, the fall of Adam was 6-8,000 years ago. And thus, Man has been On the earth (excluding eden) for 6-8,000 years... and the flood happened 5-6,000 years ago.... The Ice Age very well could have existed, but Man would not have been on the Earth to care... let alone cross any land bridges.

While CC and Love Poetry duke it out among themselves,

Im just wondering Why "Imagrating across a land bridge during an Ice-age" isn't a Valid theory? Because, it has nothing to do with people copming across it boats,Why? Because, like I said, the Land-Bridge theory happens about 14,000 BC... the Flood happens 4-5,000 BC... Do you assume God was either lying or misquoted when he said he would destroy ALL flesh that was not in the ark at the time of the flood?

I'm still waiting for a christian to answer the question reasonably, without resorting to the Mormon asnwer of "they sailed away on a boat after the whole tower of babel thing"

so in essence you want a false answer that is not held as dogma by any of the mainstream christian churches. most of what your average christian would disagree with is the mormon contention that current native americans are mainly descended from some jews who showed up in 800 bce. and your educated ones would disagree with the claim that it was first populated - also by middle easterners - in 2240 bce. the boats have nothing to do with it. its your story and your dates that are wrong.

Ok...look in Chapter 11 is says...

Genesis 11


The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [1] they found a plain in Shinar [2] and settled there.


it says the whole Earth had one Speach...but just in Chapter 10 is say that there was different languages...

so can't one assume this was inserted into this part of the book becaus this is where it best fit in. Chapter 10 talks about family history...then 11 talks about this...because it was important and then later in 11 it picks up again with more family history...

However, the fall of Adam was 6-8,000 years ago. And thus, Man has been On the earth (excluding eden) for 6-8,000 years... and the flood happened 5-6,000 years ago.... The Ice Age very well could have existed, but Man would not have been on the Earth to care... let alone cross any land bridges.

doesn't it strike you as the slightest bit odd that there were cities (catalhoyuk, jerhico, etc) before adam? or that civilizations in egypt, sumer, and china didn't notice a giant flood wiping them out during the middle of recorded history? or that there were already different written languages before the tower of babel incident and the same different written languages existed after it?

Raysia? I known I've tried to be a 'kinder Gentler' critic of you recently, and stuck up for you when yo've gotton dogpiled in other threads, but I have to ask...

Is there any possiblities your theory is wrong? Question ones faith can be a big part in being Closer to God. as a Teenager, I questioned my own faith for a while..At the time I was learning a more fundimentalist view of Catholism, And It bothered me. I began to question myself, and came to a broader intepratation of the Bible and its teachings.

Ultimately, by question my faith, by thinking "I could be wrong on some issues" I was opened to a broader view of the world.

So... Is it possible for you to question your own views? I simply do not take the Bible 'Word for Word' I believe its the "Word of God" as written by Humans, and Humans have a tendancy to exagerate and embelish things, So.. we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt...

That is why I belive IN the Bible, but not Exactly what it says... I Belive God had a part in Creation, but Creation through Science. So, I may belive That perhaps there was a flood, and perhaps much of the 'known' world was swalloed up, But, if I am to belive all the species of the owrd came from the Ark, the would lead to massive inbreeding of an insane rate as it means all animals came from only One male and One female.

However, the fall of Adam was 6-8,000 years ago. And thus, Man has been On the earth (excluding eden) for 6-8,000 years... and the flood happened 5-6,000 years ago.... The Ice Age very well could have existed, but Man would not have been on the Earth to care... let alone cross any land bridges.

doesn't it strike you as the slightest bit odd that there were cities (catalhoyuk, jerhico, etc) before adam? or that civilizations in egypt, sumer, and china didn't notice a giant flood wiping them out during the middle of recorded history? or that there were already different written languages before the tower of babel incident and the same different written languages existed after it?I'm sorry, what? Cities before adam? What on earth are you talking about?

Raysia? I known I've tried to be a 'kinder Gentler' critic of you recently, and stuck up for you when yo've gotton dogpiled in other threads, but I have to ask...

Is there any possiblities your theory is wrong? Question ones faith can be a big part in being Closer to God. as a Teenager, I questioned my own faith for a while..At the time I was learning a more fundimentalist view of Catholism, And It bothered me. I began to question myself, and came to a broader intepratation of the Bible and its teachings.

Ultimately, by question my faith, by thinking "I could be wrong on some issues" I was opened to a broader view of the world.

So... Is it possible for you to question your own views? I simply do not take the Bible 'Word for Word' I believe its the "Word of God" as written by Humans, and Humans have a tendancy to exagerate and embelish things, So.. we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt...

That is why I belive IN the Bible, but not Exactly what it says... I Belive God had a part in Creation, but Creation through Science. So, I may belive That perhaps there was a flood, and perhaps much of the 'known' world was swalloed up, But, if I am to belive all the species of the owrd came from the Ark, the would lead to massive inbreeding of an insane rate as it means all animals came from only One male and One female.So... you don't take the bible literally... in any way... that's kinda... oh... unchristian...?

However, the fall of Adam was 6-8,000 years ago. And thus, Man has been On the earth (excluding eden) for 6-8,000 years... and the flood happened 5-6,000 years ago.... The Ice Age very well could have existed, but Man would not have been on the Earth to care... let alone cross any land bridges.

doesn't it strike you as the slightest bit odd that there were cities (catalhoyuk, jerhico, etc) before adam? or that civilizations in egypt, sumer, and china didn't notice a giant flood wiping them out during the middle of recorded history? or that there were already different written languages before the tower of babel incident and the same different written languages existed after it?

I'm sorry what are you talking about?

Well, now hold on, I didn't Say I don't take any of it as fact.. I read it, And I take too heart the morals, the Wisdom, and the teachings of how to live your life... The things I gloss over are things about how you should own slaves, or stone people for about 200 different things in Leviticus, or that speaking 'Jahova' (sp) outloud is Blasphamous, Those sort of things...

Raysia? I known I've tried to be a 'kinder Gentler' critic of you recently, and stuck up for you when yo've gotton dogpiled in other threads, but I have to ask...

Is there any possiblities your theory is wrong? Question ones faith can be a big part in being Closer to God. as a Teenager, I questioned my own faith for a while..At the time I was learning a more fundimentalist view of Catholism, And It bothered me. I began to question myself, and came to a broader intepratation of the Bible and its teachings.

Ultimately, by question my faith, by thinking "I could be wrong on some issues" I was opened to a broader view of the world.

So... Is it possible for you to question your own views? I simply do not take the Bible 'Word for Word' I believe its the "Word of God" as written by Humans, and Humans have a tendancy to exagerate and embelish things, So.. we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt...

That is why I belive IN the Bible, but not Exactly what it says... I Belive God had a part in Creation, but Creation through Science. So, I may belive That perhaps there was a flood, and perhaps much of the 'known' world was swalloed up, But, if I am to belive all the species of the owrd came from the Ark, the would lead to massive inbreeding of an insane rate as it means all animals came from only One male and One female.So... you don't take the bible literally... in any way... that's kinda... oh... unchristian...?

I gonna have to side with Ray on this one..... As a Christian I take the Bible...literally...what is says happened...THE END. Yes, humans wrote it, but I believe (as I hope you would) that God told them what to write. The Bible is God's Infallible word

Well, now hold on, I didn't Say I don't take any of it as fact.. I read it, And I take too heart the morals, the Wisdom, and the teachings of how to live your life... The things I gloss over are things about how you should own slaves, or stone people for about 200 different things in Leviticus, or that speaking 'Jahova' (sp) outloud is Blasphamous, Those sort of things...

Ok, but you should know then that the Laws of the Old Testiment (slaves as you mentioned) are not in effect. As Christians we are under the laws of the New Testiment....

Raysia? I known I've tried to be a 'kinder Gentler' critic of you recently, and stuck up for you when yo've gotton dogpiled in other threads, but I have to ask...

Is there any possiblities your theory is wrong? Question ones faith can be a big part in being Closer to God. as a Teenager, I questioned my own faith for a while..At the time I was learning a more fundimentalist view of Catholism, And It bothered me. I began to question myself, and came to a broader intepratation of the Bible and its teachings.

Ultimately, by question my faith, by thinking "I could be wrong on some issues" I was opened to a broader view of the world.

So... Is it possible for you to question your own views? I simply do not take the Bible 'Word for Word' I believe its the "Word of God" as written by Humans, and Humans have a tendancy to exagerate and embelish things, So.. we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt...

That is why I belive IN the Bible, but not Exactly what it says... I Belive God had a part in Creation, but Creation through Science. So, I may belive That perhaps there was a flood, and perhaps much of the 'known' world was swalloed up, But, if I am to belive all the species of the owrd came from the Ark, the would lead to massive inbreeding of an insane rate as it means all animals came from only One male and One female.So... you don't take the bible literally... in any way... that's kinda... oh... unchristian...?

I gonna have to side with Ray on this one..... As a Christian I take the Bible...literally...what is says happened...THE END. Yes, humans wrote it, but I believe (as I hope you would) that God told them what to write. The Bible is God's Infallible word

So if a burning bush told you that it was the voice of god and demanded that you sacrifice you childe, you would?

And we are called evil.


Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

Ok, but you should know then that the Laws of the Old Testiment (slaves as you mentioned) are not in effect. As Christians we are under the laws of the New Testiment.... Oh yea! Im all for that! I mean, thats Great! Jesus was about 'Out with the Old in with the New' Thats why we got rid of all those old laws, including that silly:
"Though shall not let Man lay with Man for it is an Abomination Lev 18:22"
Right? I mean, Thats in the old testiment.. So, being Gay is ok now, Right?

However, the fall of Adam was 6-8,000 years ago. And thus, Man has been On the earth (excluding eden) for 6-8,000 years... and the flood happened 5-6,000 years ago.... The Ice Age very well could have existed, but Man would not have been on the Earth to care... let alone cross any land bridges.

doesn't it strike you as the slightest bit odd that there were cities (catalhoyuk, jerhico, etc) before adam? or that civilizations in egypt, sumer, and china didn't notice a giant flood wiping them out during the middle of recorded history? or that there were already different written languages before the tower of babel incident and the same different written languages existed after it?I'm sorry, what? Cities before adam? What on earth are yout alking about?

you put adam at 4000 - 6000 bce up there, correct? ussher put creation at 4004 bce, but there is some wiggle room. the 'overgrown village' of catalhoyuk in modern turkey had a population of around five thousand in 7000 bce - a thousand years before adam is reported to have lived. jericho was almost continuously inhabited from 9 or 10000 bce. and to throw out these dates, you are going to wind up having to throw out a huge part of multiple scientific fields. including the idea that tree rings count years.

Ok, but you should know then that the Laws of the Old Testiment (slaves as you mentioned) are not in effect. As Christians we are under the laws of the New Testiment.... Oh yea! Im all for that! I mean, thats Great! Jesus was about 'Out with the Old in with the New' Thats why we got rid of all those old laws, including that silly:
"Though shall not let Man lay with Man for it is an Abomination Lev 18:22"
Right? I mean, Thats in the old testiment.. So, being Gay is ok now, Right?

Nice try but no! There are verses in the new testiment that speak against that as well. I'm not saying with throw out everything...you didn't hear me say that. What I did say was that as Christians we are not under the LAWS of the Old Testiment. We still take from that how to live and such as you mention, but we are simply not bound to those laws.

Raysia? I known I've tried to be a 'kinder Gentler' critic of you recently, and stuck up for you when yo've gotton dogpiled in other threads, but I have to ask...

Is there any possiblities your theory is wrong? Question ones faith can be a big part in being Closer to God. as a Teenager, I questioned my own faith for a while..At the time I was learning a more fundimentalist view of Catholism, And It bothered me. I began to question myself, and came to a broader intepratation of the Bible and its teachings.

Ultimately, by question my faith, by thinking "I could be wrong on some issues" I was opened to a broader view of the world.

So... Is it possible for you to question your own views? I simply do not take the Bible 'Word for Word' I believe its the "Word of God" as written by Humans, and Humans have a tendancy to exagerate and embelish things, So.. we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt...

That is why I belive IN the Bible, but not Exactly what it says... I Belive God had a part in Creation, but Creation through Science. So, I may belive That perhaps there was a flood, and perhaps much of the 'known' world was swalloed up, But, if I am to belive all the species of the owrd came from the Ark, the would lead to massive inbreeding of an insane rate as it means all animals came from only One male and One female.So... you don't take the bible literally... in any way... that's kinda... oh... unchristian...?

I gonna have to side with Ray on this one..... As a Christian I take the Bible...literally...what is says happened...THE END. Yes, humans wrote it, but I believe (as I hope you would) that God told them what to write. The Bible is God's Infallible word

So if a burning bush told you that it was the voice of god and demanded that you sacrifice you childe, you would?

And we are called evil.


Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

did you finish reading to see how the story ended? Also, who am I to question how God choices to appear or to get someone attention. You know sometimes people are just plain funny. You can tell a joke to everyone and not everyone is going to think it is funny. It is kinda the same way....maybe this is the only way God could have gotten his attention....it worked though didn't it.

However, the fall of Adam was 6-8,000 years ago. And thus, Man has been On the earth (excluding eden) for 6-8,000 years... and the flood happened 5-6,000 years ago.... The Ice Age very well could have existed, but Man would not have been on the Earth to care... let alone cross any land bridges.

doesn't it strike you as the slightest bit odd that there were cities (catalhoyuk, jerhico, etc) before adam? or that civilizations in egypt, sumer, and china didn't notice a giant flood wiping them out during the middle of recorded history? or that there were already different written languages before the tower of babel incident and the same different written languages existed after it?I'm sorry, what? Cities before adam? What on earth are yout alking about?

you put adam at 4000 - 6000 bce up there, correct? ussher put creation at 4004 bce, but there is some wiggle room. the 'overgrown village' of catalhoyuk in modern turkey had a population of around five thousand in 7000 bce - a thousand years before adam is reported to have lived. jericho was almost continuously inhabited from 9 or 10000 bce. and to throw out these dates, you are going to wind up having to throw out a huge part of multiple scientific fields. including the idea that tree rings count years.

so are you saying there is a tree from catalhoyuk....

One can only wonder why a merciful God would make all the independent scientific evidence point in the exact opposite way.

Could be the old "works in mysterious ways" I guess.

Or all scientists are acively opposed to Christianity.

Then again, maybe there is another logical explanation.

doesn't it strike you as the slightest bit odd that there were cities (catalhoyuk, jerhico, etc) before adam? or that civilizations in egypt, sumer, and china didn't notice a giant flood wiping them out during the middle of recorded history? or that there were already different written languages before the tower of babel incident and the same different written languages existed after it?

I'm sorry what are you talking about?

well you see, there has been all this archaeology and science and such that has given us a good picture of human history. and the bible doesn't seem to start getting it right until maybe around the time of solomon.

for example, if you take the bible's dates seriously, the flood happens in something like 2500 bce. which happens to be right in the middle of the pyramid building age of egypt, and the age of...well lots and lots of written documents from sumer. they seem to have missed out on that whole mass drowning thing. in fact, they go right along exactly as if nothing had happened.

You silly billy, dont you know that the Egyptians didnt exist?
God put the Pyramids there for us to marvel at and inspre us.

so are you saying there is a tree from catalhoyuk....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BC

TP

TP

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BC

Theologians are not scientists.

Why does all of the available scientific evidence fail to support the flood myth?

Is God testing us? Behaving in "mysterious ways"? Are all the scentists evil blasphemers destined for hell?

Or is the Bible merely meant to deal with theology, expressed in the language and with the scientific knowledge of its time, and using parables to illustrate moral and theological values.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BC

Theologians are not scientists.

Why does all of the available scientific evidence fail to support the flood myth?

Is God testing us? Behaving in "mysterious ways"? Are all the scentists evil blasphemers destined for hell?

Or is the Bible merely meant to deal with theology, expressed in the language and with the scientific knowledge of its time, and using parables to illustrate moral and theological values.Umm who cares? What does this have to do with this debate?

I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BC

and most theologians that don't want to look like asses either claim that the story is allegorical, mythologized, or that the dates are not important or correct or something.

Yes. But they fear they will go to hell if they question the bible. Its sorta a holdover from that whole Inquisition thing. When in reality all that really matters in the Church is wether or not you think Jesus died for sins and was resurrected

Yes. But they fear they will go to hell if they question the bible. Its sorta a holdover from that whole Inquisition thing. When in reality all that really matters in the Church is wether or not you think Jesus died for sins and was resurrectedYes, really, that's ALL that matters.

If that was really all that mattered, why have all this other stuff in the Bible?

I can't believe this... aren't there any Christians willing to answer my question that ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE?

Man, until today I thought it was a given that Christians believed the Bible to be true... sheesh you guys are weird.

All I have to say is proverbs 3:5:

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Filler!

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.

Filler!...???

I can't believe this... aren't there any Christians willing to answer my question that ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE?

Man, until today I thought it was a given that Christians believed the Bible to be true... sheesh you guys are weird.

All I have to say is proverbs 3:5:

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.I do believe the Bible to be true, and I do trust the lord with all my heart. If He told me to jump in front of a speeding Union Pacific freight train, I would do it in a heartbeat.

I really wish that all of you could experience the kind of relationship that I have with Christ. I'm telling you....it is so far beyond awesome, words just don't do it justice. Shoot...I wish you guys could all just visit my church once....anyways....

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

I can't believe this... aren't there any Christians willing to answer my question that ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE?

Man, until today I thought it was a given that Christians believed the Bible to be true... sheesh you guys are weird.

All I have to say is proverbs 3:5:

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.I do believe the Bible to be true, and I do trust the lord with all my heart. If He told me to jump in front of a speeding Union Pacific freight train, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Yeah!!! Finally someone else!!

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.Affirmative. It's still incomplete, though. What makes them think that somehow, the Bible is a full history of the world, when it never claims to be that?

Filler!...???

All missionaries try to do is convince teh savages that Jesus dies and was ressurected, because to them this seems to be the best miracle. To be honest I reckon the most astounding is the Water into wine, or the loaves and fishes. Hmm, those two miracles would've gone great together...

Anyway, what they tell us is that to get into heaven you need to believe christ died for your sins. Whats in the bible isnt fundamentally nessicary.

And to be honest a lot of things in the bible seem less like something that gos would say. And more like what an organised religion would make up to consolidate its control.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
B) no written historical documents count exist before WRITING was invented.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.Yes he was.

Filler!...???

All missionaries try to do is convince teh savages that Jesus dies and was ressurected, because to them this seems to be the best miracle. To be honest I reckon the most astounding is the Water into wine, or the loaves and fishes. Hmm, those two miracles would've gone great together...

Anyway, what they tell us is that to get into heaven you need to believe christ died for your sins. Whats in the bible isnt fundamentally nessicary.

And to be honest a lot of things in the bible seem less like something that gos would say. And more like what an organised religion would make up to consolidate its control.

so you're saying as long as you believe that Christ died for you sin, the rest is just water under the bridge. No need to really mess iwith the other stuff. Cuz, it is probably just somebodies way of having control over you....

hmm man are you in for a Disappointment

I can't believe this... aren't there any Christians willing to answer my question that ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE?

Man, until today I thought it was a given that Christians believed the Bible to be true... sheesh you guys are weird.

they make a distinction these days between believing the bible to be literally true and believing that bible relates god's message, sometimes through allegory. it was either that or risk losing all of the educated people to agnosticism, atheism, or deism. literalism just doesn't hold up against the slightest amount of fact checking.

Sorry this is a little late,
but if the 7 day things was 1 'day' = 1000 years and not 24 hours.
would that not deny the Sabbath?

The defense i've heard alot of Christians say is that the New Testament is the only one that matters, and the old testament does not specifically relate to their religion.
Which effectively cuts out most of the impossible stuff.

so you're saying as long as you believe that Christ died for you sin, the rest is just water under the bridge. No need to really mess iwith the other stuff. Cuz, it is probably just somebodies way of having control over you....

hmm man are you in for a Disappointment
Well I'm not religious, so I guess I wont be disappointed after all. I'm gonna go to that great big sauna in the ground. The people who arent fundamentalists tell us that If we accept the lord god into our heart and believe in the miracles he performed then the power and the glory and the wonder of the kingdom
Yada, Yada, Yada.

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

GET BACK TO TOPIC PEOPLE!

No one will give an answer on the topic question, because no one has one.

Bwahahahaha. I am doing the Decievers work :twisted:

The defense i've heard alot of Christians say is that the New Testament is the only one that matters, and the old testament does not specifically relate to their religion.
Which effectively cuts out most of the impossible stuff.It's true. The whole concept of Christianity is that all you have to do to gain eternal life is accept Jesus Christ as your savior, and to sincerely repent of your sins.

For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten son, so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
-John 3:16

No one will give an answer on the topic question, because no one has one.I gave an answer. You just want someone to blunder in here and be like, "OMG!!!!1shiftone u are stupid and going to hell cause there was no land brige and the indians were put there by Jesus!!!!!11" so that you can crush them and feel superior.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.Yes he was.

Prove it.

so, to live forever, you need to die?
and, nearly every religoin bases iteself on that.
believe in 'insert saviour' and live forever in paradise.
what i dont understand, if you dont believe, you go to the bad place, and are in eternal pain. but for eternal pain, you need eternal life.
so i'm going to live forever anyway?

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.Yes he was.

Prove it.It says so in the Bible.

Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

to get technical, the books of the bible claimed to be earliest were compiled from earlier sources a few hundred years before jesus. and those earlier sources (the j, e, p, and d documents) were probably all written after 950 bce - and closer to 600 bce in the case of p and d.

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.Yes he was.

Prove it.It says so in the Bible.

Wich was written by humans..long after writing was invented.
How could the Bible prove that?

The Bible also says that some guy built a really big boat....and collected two of every animal on earth, and floated around for fourty days.

Do you believe that?

Or that some 99 year old lady gave birth?

Or that people used to live until they were nearly 1000 years old?

Thats all in there too.

'it says so in the bible'

some books say the Holocaust never happened, maybe they're true as well?

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BC

Theologians are not scientists.

Why does all of the available scientific evidence fail to support the flood myth?

Is God testing us? Behaving in "mysterious ways"? Are all the scentists evil blasphemers destined for hell?

Or is the Bible merely meant to deal with theology, expressed in the language and with the scientific knowledge of its time, and using parables to illustrate moral and theological values.Umm who cares? What does this have to do with this debate?

You are the one making claims in the areas of archaeology, geology, and anthropology based solely on the claims made in your particular version of the Bible.

The topic is "what about the native americans". This topic and related ones, e.g. the supposed flood, are all addressed by various mainstream sciences.

Why do you suppose that none of them agree with your interpretation?

Are they all wrong?

*sigh* That's it... there's no hope for this thread.

You guys can't come up with an answer without using a land bridge... the land bridge couldn't have happened after the flood, because the Ice age was way before then, and you don't like the sound of the mormon "boats" theory... so... it seems it's impossible to answer the question without resorting to something along the lines of "God was exaggerating."

Am I wrong?

'it says so in the bible'

some books say the Holocaust never happened, maybe they're true as well?No they're not.

Anyway, I have no reason not to believe that Adam wasn't a real person.

'it says so in the bible'

some books say the Holocaust never happened, maybe they're true as well?what the crap.

Please, non-christians, get off my thread! Quit Hijacking!

Are you a puppet of HLF or what. You cant stop people posting.

Threads evolve, Get over it. Its happened to all of us.
Ahaha. But I guess as a Christian you may not believe that :twisted:

i have no reason not to believe the holocaust never happened.
except a lot of ppl tell me it did. like you.

while, you have no reason not to believe adam didnt exist.
except a lot of people say he didn't.

i'm trying to make a point, i just cant word it.

'it says so in the bible'

some books say the Holocaust never happened, maybe they're true as well?what the crap.

Please, non-christians, get off my thread! Quit Hijacking!

Its not YOUR thread.

Wouldnt we all be really inbred by now if We are all desended from a single man and a single woman?

Perhaps if they were married....

Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.Yes he was.

Prove it.It says so in the Bible.

Wich was written by humans..long after writing was invented.
How could the Bible prove that?

The Bible also says that some guy built a really big boat....and collected two of every animal on earth, and floated around for fourty days.

Do you believe that?

Or that some 99 year old lady gave birth?

Or that people used to live until they were nearly 1000 years old?

Thats all in there too.

yes i believe all of that (although you were not directly talking to me) and I also heard that they found the ARK...

Wouldnt we all be really inbred by now if We are all desended from a single man and a single woman?

Perhaps if they were married....That would explain why we're so screwed up...

Are you a puppet of HLF or what. You cant stop people posting.

Threads evolve, Get over it. Its happened to all of us.
Ahaha. But I guess as a Christian you may not believe that :twisted:It's evolved away from the whole point.

It can evolve once I get an answer lol

[quote:b2b7a7c087="Capsule Corporation"]Just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have migrated to North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? And when?

Please note: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VS. ATHEISM, OR CREATIONISM VS. EVOLUTION.

This is a simple question to mainstream Christians, asking what their religion's explanation is for the Native Americans.I am a mainstream Christian, and there is nothing in the Bible that says there was no ice age, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No, I did not read anything but the topic post.I didn't say there was no ice age. i said there was no ice age AFTER the flood... because most theologens put the flood at around 4-5000 BCTheologians base their dates on incomplete information. They read the Bible, and figured that the earth is 6,000 years old by counting the generations talke about in the Bible. The problem is, they're assuming that the Bible covers every part of history until the time of Jesus Christ, our Lord. They don't allow for the possibility that the Bible leaves parts of history out. They try to treat the Bible as if it is a timeline.They reference it with known historical facts. Some of the later books of the bible were written only a few hundred years before Christ came.... and most of them held full geneaology links back to Adam.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.Yes he was.

Prove it.It says so in the Bible.

Wich was written by humans..long after writing was invented.
How could the Bible prove that?

The Bible also says that some guy built a really big boat....and collected two of every animal on earth, and floated around for fourty days.

Do you believe that?

Or that some 99 year old lady gave birth?

Or that people used to live until they were nearly 1000 years old?

Thats all in there too.

yes i believe all of that (although you were not directly talking to me) and I also heard that they found the ARK...[/quote:b2b7a7c087]

If you believe all that then Ive got this really cool bridge Id like to sell you.

As for the ark..no they didnt......it was a rock buried in the snow.

Yes I'm sure you hear lots of things. I heard about it being in turkey.
But I dont really care. How does it account for Animals being outside of the Eurasian Landmass?

(Skillfull guiding the thread back on topic, Happy now CC? :D )

i have no reason not to believe the holocaust never happened.
except a lot of ppl tell me it did. like you.

while, you have no reason not to believe adam didnt exist.
except a lot of people say he didn't.

i'm trying to make a point, i just cant word it.Maybe you're right. Maybe the Holocaust didn't really happen. I never really thought about it before, but you may very well be right about the Holocaust being a hoax. Thank you for showing me the light about that whole thing.

*sigh* That's it... there's no hope for this thread.

You guys can't come up with an answer without using a land bridge... the land bridge couldn't have happened after the flood, because the Ice age was way before then, and you don't like the sound of the mormon "boats" theory... so... it seems it's impossible to answer the question without resorting to something along the lines of "God was exaggerating."

Am I wrong?

we know (roughly) how the native americans got here. we know (roughly) when the native americans got here. this knowledge contradicts a literal interpretation of the old testament and any interpretation of the book of mormon. and this knowledge is not controversial to anyone that knows about the subject. there was a land bridge. the people that became native americans crossed it sometime between 30,000 and 15,000 years ago. that this disagrees with your religious beliefs is just too fuck'ing bad. religion has been playing catch up with science for centuries now - the only way to stay in the game is to not make factual claims about history an important part of your dogma. other christian churches have already learned this and they seem to be getting along fine.

Dude, you no what if I'm wrong (not likely) and I've wasted my entire life following this guy Jesus, then really I just wasted my life...no harm done. But if I'm right and you are wrong then you are in more serious trouble than I am...

i have no reason not to believe the holocaust never happened.
except a lot of ppl tell me it did. like you.

while, you have no reason not to believe adam didnt exist.
except a lot of people say he didn't.

i'm trying to make a point, i just cant word it.Maybe you're right. Maybe the Holocaust didn't really happen. I never really thought about it before, but you may very well be right about the Holocaust being a hoax. Thank you for showing me the light about that whole thing.

Trust a christian. God killed Jesus, Blame Him ;)

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.

Yes I'm sure you hear lots of things. I heard about it being in turkey.
But I dont really care. How does it account for Animals being outside of the Eurasian Landmass?

(Skillfull guiding the thread back on topic, Happy now CC? :D )

last I checked animals can move too

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.Congratulations for stating my point.

This is why the original topic was addressed to CHRISTIANS, who already ASSUMED the Bible to be true.

The point of this thread was to have a discussion based on that assumption.

Unfortunately, some people can't stand not being heard... so.. yeah...whatever.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?

Just to make a point...

We are thinking about thing in our minds....and only the things that we can comprehend and understand (abviously) Whos to say that this division didn't happen supernaturally? I remember a passage that says Gods ways are not our ways....etc etc etc. We don't know everything....God can do thing we've never think of ever....so who is to say he didn't move everyone where he wanted them..... point is...we don't know.

Wich is impossible since a) Adam was never a real person.
Yes he was.
Prove it.
It says so in the Bible.
Sorry, I simply have to quote this. Indeed, I will save this for future quoting. It is precisely these attitudes that make all these threads so circular.I have faith. I'm not ashamed of it.


but, that comment shows your faith is based on ignorance, not true belief, if your faith was not based on ignorance, shouldn't you have an actual answer for the statement/question?Ignorance of what? Philosophy? Theory? So he made a choice.. and it's not the same as yours... that makes him ignorant?

Just to make a point...

We are thinking about thing in our minds....and only the things that we can comprehend and understand (abviously) Whos to say that this division didn't happen supernaturally? I remember a passage that says Gods ways are not our ways....etc etc etc. We don't know everything....God can do thing we've never think of ever....so who is to say he didn't move everyone where he wanted them..... point is...we don't know.Then say that? I would have accepted that as an answer too, ya know.

Dude, you no what if I'm wrong (not likely) and I've wasted my entire life following this guy Jesus, then really I just wasted my life...no harm done. But if I'm right and you are wrong then you are in more serious trouble than I am...

Well I feel That I need to Seek out the truth as best I can comprehend it. This means Science physics and reason, no matter how harsh it is. I will not a peasant in the Lords Kingdom. Notice the Fuedalistic connotations there. No not as if the Christian church was the centre of the Feudal systems power, No not at all....