NationStates Jolt Archive

Raysia, can you please do us a favor and ask one of your church elders? I REALLY don't want to be accusing you guys of having baptized specific people if I can't prove it.Sure. (Of course, I am an elder, but I know what you mean :P)

But I don't think it matters in this topic very much... let's assume that everyone who has not specifically objected has been baptized.

It may not matter specifically in terms of "should we do it; we don't want you to do it", etc, but it's very important to me, as well as to other people trying to find if relatives, etc, were in fact baptized. And, again, I don't want to accuse you guys of doing specific things you haven't done (although I know that you have certainly been engaging in the general practice :wink: )like I said... holocaust victims are not baptized unless a family member requests. That was the original point, was it not?

Well, my original point was that it's disrespectful in general, not just to Holocaust victims. But, to tell you the truth, right now I'm kind of sick of this. Our brief period of almost co-operation has calmed my seething rage.

Truce (for now? :twisted: )??

Yeah. let's just drop it.

besides, your 10 minutes ended... what, 100 posts and 3 hours ago? :P

Man, we need lives :P

Raysia, can you please do us a favor and ask one of your church elders? I REALLY don't want to be accusing you guys of having baptized specific people if I can't prove it.Sure. (Of course, I am an elder, but I know what you mean :P)

But I don't think it matters in this topic very much... let's assume that everyone who has not specifically objected has been baptized.

Even communists? People who were blatently atheist AND anti-religious? People like Joseph Stalin who tried to discourage religion and said it was the opiate of the masses? I find it rather odd that you would bi proxy baptize people who, in their lives, hated you and everything you stood for. I'll say one thing for the mormons...they sure don't discriminate.

I don't have anything against mormons personally, I just don't understand why they do the things they do. I live in Lincoln, England and they have a church here. Sometimes they talk to me on the street. They seem nice enough. During one conversion I told him I was going to get a kebab and he asked me what a kebab tastes like. Which struck me as kind of odd, since you can't walk a mile without going past a takeaway. Have they never walked past a kebabi and gone in for food? Raysia, exactly how strict is the LDS in general? Do they have restrictions on what they are allowed to eat?

Wait...

MY grandfathers name appeared on this site when I searched THAT link...

Does THIS mean that He, too, was baptised by proxy?possibly.I know it's alreayd been posted, but could you show me the link please? http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.aspThankswrong link, I apologize.Uh, ok. Then what is the right one?I do not believe it is on the internet.

Such church records are classified.

You might be able to access it if you go to a church stake center and use their computers there.So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?

Raysia, can you please do us a favor and ask one of your church elders? I REALLY don't want to be accusing you guys of having baptized specific people if I can't prove it.Sure. (Of course, I am an elder, but I know what you mean :P)

But I don't think it matters in this topic very much... let's assume that everyone who has not specifically objected has been baptized.

Even communists? People who were blatently atheist AND anti-religious? People like Joseph Stalin who tried to discourage religion and said it was the opiate of the masses? I find it rather odd that you would bi proxy baptize people who, in their lives, hated you and everything you stood for. I'll say one thing for the mormons...they sure don't discriminate.

I don't have anything against mormons personally, I just don't understand why they do the things they do. I live in Lincoln, England and they have a church here. Sometimes they talk to me on the street. They seem nice enough. During one conversion I told him I was going to get a kebab and he asked me what a kebab tastes like. Which struck me as kind of odd, since you can't walk a mile without going past a takeaway. Have they never walked past a kebabi and gone in for food? Raysia, exactly how strict is the LDS in general? Do they have restrictions on what they are allowed to eat?even hitler.

Heck, I'm personally responsible for baptizingbenedict Arnold, believe it or not :P

Everyone can repent.

The afterlife is not simply heaven and hell as conceptualized by christians.

Wait...

MY grandfathers name appeared on this site when I searched THAT link...

Does THIS mean that He, too, was baptised by proxy?possibly.I know it's alreayd been posted, but could you show me the link please? http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.aspThankswrong link, I apologize.Uh, ok. Then what is the right one?I do not believe it is on the internet.

Such church records are classified.

You might be able to access it if you go to a church stake center and use their computers there.So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?

Yeah. let's just drop it.

besides, your 10 minutes ended... what, 100 posts and 3 hours ago? :P

Man, we need lives :P

Like the eight times you said you were "leaving the thread".

Well, I'm REALLY going to leave now. Maybe you should, too. It's a school day and all that.

[post pyramid]So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?
Why do you keep it secret? If you believe you can access the information because it's public record how can you then keep that information secret? It's darn right devious.

Yeah. let's just drop it.

besides, your 10 minutes ended... what, 100 posts and 3 hours ago? :P

Man, we need lives :P

Like the eight times you said you were "leaving the thread".

Well, I'm REALLY going to leave now. Maybe you should, too. It's a school day and all that.what can I say... ask a stupid question enopugh times, and sure enough the guy's gonna come back to yell at you some more :P
j/k

Raysia, can you please do us a favor and ask one of your church elders? I REALLY don't want to be accusing you guys of having baptized specific people if I can't prove it.Sure. (Of course, I am an elder, but I know what you mean :P)

But I don't think it matters in this topic very much... let's assume that everyone who has not specifically objected has been baptized.

Even communists? People who were blatently atheist AND anti-religious? People like Joseph Stalin who tried to discourage religion and said it was the opiate of the masses? I find it rather odd that you would bi proxy baptize people who, in their lives, hated you and everything you stood for. I'll say one thing for the mormons...they sure don't discriminate.

I don't have anything against mormons personally, I just don't understand why they do the things they do. I live in Lincoln, England and they have a church here. Sometimes they talk to me on the street. They seem nice enough. During one conversion I told him I was going to get a kebab and he asked me what a kebab tastes like. Which struck me as kind of odd, since you can't walk a mile without going past a takeaway. Have they never walked past a kebabi and gone in for food? Raysia, exactly how strict is the LDS in general? Do they have restrictions on what they are allowed to eat?even hitler.

Heck, I'm personally responsible for baptizingbenedict Arnold, believe it or not :P

Everyone can repent.

The afterlife is not simply heaven and hell as conceptualized by christians.

Not simply heaven and hell? Is it more like a planet, and good people to the better places in the afterlife? This has got me interested. Also, my question on food...do you have restrictions on food like other religions? Can you guys eat kebabs and currys? I have to KNOW! :)

[post pyramid]So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?
Why do you keep it secret? If you believe you can access the information because it's public record how can you then keep that information secret? It's darn right devious.it's not a secret. Go to the stake center and access it.

It MIGHT be on the net, I just don't know where

[post pyramid]So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?
Why do you keep it secret? If you believe you can access the information because it's public record how can you then keep that information secret? It's darn right devious.it's not a secret. Go to the stake center and access it.

It MIGHT be on the net, I just don't know where
I do not believe it is on the internet.

Such church records are classified.

Not simply heaven and hell? Is it more like a planet, and good people to the better places in the afterlife? This has got me interested. Also, my question on food...do you have restrictions on food like other religions? Can you guys eat kebabs and currys? I have to KNOW! :)After this life, you either go to Spirit Prison, or Spirit Paradise, depending on how good you were in this life. Then after the second coming, the righteous get to live on the Earth, partially resurrected, for 1000 years, with satan bound. Then there's a big ol fight with satan, and then that's the end of the world. Then we all get resurrected, everyone, and we get sorted out via the Final Judgement into our degrees of glory, depending on how well we lived and what choices we made in our life on earth, in the spirit world, and in the millenium. We get sorted into either the Telestial Kingdom (lowest, but still cool) the Terestial kingdom (average, but cooler than the telestial kingdom) or Celestial kingdom (ya totally rock!).

Do we have restrictions on food? heck yeah. no coffee, no tea, no illicit or addictive drugs, no alcohol, and no tobacco.

[post pyramid]So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?
Why do you keep it secret? If you believe you can access the information because it's public record how can you then keep that information secret? It's darn right devious.it's not a secret. Go to the stake center and access it.

It MIGHT be on the net, I just don't know where
I do not believe it is on the internet.

Such church records are classified.

*some church records

I don't know which parts are classified.

I know the records of LIVING members are for church use only.

[post pyramid]So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?
Why do you keep it secret? If you believe you can access the information because it's public record how can you then keep that information secret? It's darn right devious.it's not a secret. Go to the stake center and access it.

It MIGHT be on the net, I just don't know where
I do not believe it is on the internet.

Such church records are classified.

*some church records

I don't know which parts are classified.

I know the records of LIVING members are for church use only.Ok, perhaps you should have clarified that. You know these records out the the Jesuit Annals to shame.

Not simply heaven and hell? Is it more like a planet, and good people to the better places in the afterlife? This has got me interested. Also, my question on food...do you have restrictions on food like other religions? Can you guys eat kebabs and currys? I have to KNOW! :)After this life, you either go to Spirit Prison, or Spirit Paradise, depending on how good you were in this life. Then after the second coming, the righteous get to live on the Earth, partially resurrected, for 1000 years, with satan bound. Then there's a big ol fight with satan, and then that's the end of the world. Then we all get resurrected, everyone, and we get sorted out via the Final Judgement into our degrees of glory, depending on how well we lived and what choices we made in our life on earth, in the spirit world, and in the millenium. We get sorted into either the Telestial Kingdom (lowest, but still cool) the Terestial kingdom (average, but cooler than the telestial kingdom) or Celestial kingdom (ya totally rock!).

Do we have restrictions on food? heck yeah. no coffee, no tea, no illicit or addictive drugs, no alcohol, and no tobacco.

Hmm...so If I joined your church but confessed to being a chain smoker, would the church help me quit? I wouldn't want to join a church only to find out months later that I can't follow the rules...

Not simply heaven and hell? Is it more like a planet, and good people to the better places in the afterlife? This has got me interested. Also, my question on food...do you have restrictions on food like other religions? Can you guys eat kebabs and currys? I have to KNOW! :)After this life, you either go to Spirit Prison, or Spirit Paradise, depending on how good you were in this life. Then after the second coming, the righteous get to live on the Earth, partially resurrected, for 1000 years, with satan bound. Then there's a big ol fight with satan, and then that's the end of the world. Then we all get resurrected, everyone, and we get sorted out via the Final Judgement into our degrees of glory, depending on how well we lived and what choices we made in our life on earth, in the spirit world, and in the millenium. We get sorted into either the Telestial Kingdom (lowest, but still cool) the Terestial kingdom (average, but cooler than the telestial kingdom) or Celestial kingdom (ya totally rock!).

Do we have restrictions on food? heck yeah. no coffee, no tea, no illicit or addictive drugs, no alcohol, and no tobacco.

Hmm...so If I joined your church but confessed to being a chain smoker, would the church help me quit? I wouldn't want to join a church only to find out months later that I can't follow the rules...The church actually has it's own patented 90% successful anti-smoking program.

Not simply heaven and hell? Is it more like a planet, and good people to the better places in the afterlife? This has got me interested. Also, my question on food...do you have restrictions on food like other religions? Can you guys eat kebabs and currys? I have to KNOW! :)After this life, you either go to Spirit Prison, or Spirit Paradise, depending on how good you were in this life. Then after the second coming, the righteous get to live on the Earth, partially resurrected, for 1000 years, with satan bound. Then there's a big ol fight with satan, and then that's the end of the world. Then we all get resurrected, everyone, and we get sorted out via the Final Judgement into our degrees of glory, depending on how well we lived and what choices we made in our life on earth, in the spirit world, and in the millenium. We get sorted into either the Telestial Kingdom (lowest, but still cool) the Terestial kingdom (average, but cooler than the telestial kingdom) or Celestial kingdom (ya totally rock!).

Do we have restrictions on food? heck yeah. no coffee, no tea, no illicit or addictive drugs, no alcohol, and no tobacco.

Hmm...so If I joined your church but confessed to being a chain smoker, would the church help me quit? I wouldn't want to join a church only to find out months later that I can't follow the rules...The church actually has it's own patented 90% successful anti-smoking program.

"Do or die"? :wink:

"Do or die"? :wink:Here's the article from Ensign magazine about the Church's highly effective smoke-quitting program:

http://www.lds.org/churchmagazines/2-2002-Ensign/Feb2002Ensign_Articles/Feb2002Ensign_15.pdf

Found the text version: http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2002.htm/ensign%20february%202002.htm/tobacco%20%20quitting%20for%20good.htm?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=$x=$nc=7709

Tobacco:
Quitting for Good
By Janet Brigham

Understanding the struggles of those addicted to tobacco helps us be more loving and less judgmental in supporting their efforts to escape its grasp.

Janet Brigham, “Tobacco: Quitting for Good,” Ensign, Feb. 2002, 50
One December night several years ago, I went Christmas caroling with several members of our ward. Among those we visited were several Latter-day Saints who smoked. The bishop, who was with us, had become friends with them over the years. He knew their challenges with tobacco, and they knew he loved them. They also knew that he hoped they would quit smoking.

Spiritual motivation is often high for members or potential converts to quit using tobacco, since being tobacco-free is a requirement for baptism and temple attendance. The physical challenges of quitting tobacco use are daunting. Most smokers, such as those we visited on that cold December evening, find themselves caught up in the all-too-familiar trap of dependence on tobacco.

People I meet who learn that I study tobacco use sometimes ask me: Is there hope for tobacco users? Can a smoker overcome the physical addiction and habitual behaviors of tobacco use? The answer is a resounding yes. Not only is quitting possible, but it is also highly beneficial. It is never too late to stop using tobacco. Quitting at any age and in any state of health improves one’s health. 1 Nonsmoking Latter-day Saints need to understand the physical and spiritual struggles intrinsic to quitting tobacco in order to provide love and nonjudgmental support for others in their efforts to put tobacco aside.

Following the Pattern of Addiction
Tobacco contains an addictive substance called nicotine. Most people who use tobacco regularly become addicted to it. 2 Nicotine delivered through cigarettes is comparable to illegal drugs such as heroin and cocaine in its power to addict. 3 In addition to physical addiction, smoking cigarettes or cigars or using smokeless forms of tobacco provides sensations many users perceive as pleasurable. 4 Tobacco users often rely on tobacco as a way to cope with the stresses and demands of life. 5

Only half of all smokers eventually quit permanently, and most who do succeed in quitting try several times before they finally become completely tobacco-free. 6 However, tobacco dependence is a condition that medical authorities identify as a treatable medical problem, 7 even though some of the effects of nicotine on the brain are believed to be permanent. 8

As a result of continued exposure to nicotine, the body needs nicotine on a regular basis to stave off a distinct constellation of unpleasant symptoms called withdrawal. When as little as even one cigarette (or one “dose” of nicotine) is missed, a smoker typically craves tobacco. As abstinence continues, the smoker is likely to become irritable, have difficulty concentrating and sleeping, or experience digestive problems, intense hunger, cravings for sweets, and powerful cravings for tobacco. As the user continues to miss doses of nicotine, the symptoms will peak for a few difficult days and then will gradually subside during the next two weeks. Within a month of quitting, most people can be relatively free of these symptoms, although withdrawal symptoms are different for every smoker. 9

However, one symptom can recur suddenly and without warning throughout an ex-smoker’s lifetime: an intense craving for tobacco. A sudden, stressful event often prompts this craving. Sometimes being in a social setting or experiencing a familiar emotion can also trigger a craving. Whatever prompts it, the sensation of craving is the single greatest factor leading to the return to tobacco use, also called a relapse. 10

Choosing Health
Obviously, the best and healthiest choice is to avoid the use of tobacco throughout life. However, millions of people do not know of the health risks associated with tobacco, while others choose to ignore the risks. Tobacco use for many is an unfortunate and regrettable choice made with serious consequences.

The Lord’s instructions in Doctrine and Covenants 89 [D&C 89] cautioning against the use of tobacco are a blessing for those who follow them. This revelation was given through the Prophet Joseph Smith at Kirtland, Ohio, on 27 February 1833. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meeting, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter and soon inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, warns of “evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men” and specifically cautions against the use of tobacco. It states, “Tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man” (D&C 89:4, 8).

Armed with this knowledge, those who adhere to the Word of Wisdom can avoid the harmful physical and spiritual effects of addiction to tobacco, and they can provide loving support to others who want to stop using tobacco, particularly those who are striving to participate fully in the Church.

Staying tobacco-free is not just a one-time process of quitting. It also involves avoiding relapse throughout one’s life. The ongoing process of overcoming an addiction to tobacco can enhance confidence, self-assurance, and spiritual strength. In this, as in all of our righteous endeavors, God stands ready to help in ways that are best for each of us. Seeking spiritual strength from Deity through prayer and fasting can help in overcoming the challenge. Toward this end, a priesthood blessing, with promises bestowed through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, can also be valuable.

How Does a Smoker Stop?
Because no single condition leads to tobacco dependence, no single solution cures smokers of their dependence on cigarettes. Some people are able to quit smoking easily, while some find quitting so difficult that they do not quit even when facing tobacco’s serious health problems. Smokers who believe that quitting smoking will be easy or that God will make it easy for them may become disillusioned if they experience the normal withdrawal symptoms or if they relapse back to smoking. Therefore, it is wise for smokers to take time to plan this important change carefully and prayerfully.

Successful treatment can include at least three components: (1) counseling and advice from a skilled, knowledgeable professional, with a focus on developing problem-solving skills, overcoming barriers to quitting, and preventing relapse; (2) support from friends and family members; and (3) the possible correct, careful use of legal stop-smoking medications, including nicotine replacement and other drugs tested for safety and effectiveness.

A local hospital or clinic may offer a stop-smoking group, and a health professional may be able to provide expert advice about medications that can help ease the physical and emotional discomfort of withdrawal symptoms. A nicotine replacement medication helps control withdrawal symptoms over a period of weeks or months while the ex-smoker gradually becomes accustomed to living without tobacco. 11 Nicotine replacement products are not designed to replace nicotine permanently; rather, the ex-smoker tapers off the nicotine replacement medication over a period of weeks.

The least successful way to stop smoking is to try to quit all at once, or “cold turkey,” without any kind of help. Quitting this way may seem like a good idea at the time, but statistics show that only a very small percentage of those who attempt to quit this way will still be smoke-free a year later. The work of quitting smoking involves not only the initial actions of becoming tobacco-free, but also the lifetime task of remaining tobacco-free.

What Can Family, Friends, and Ward Leaders Do to Help?
Providing spiritual and social support for those who struggle with tobacco dependence is a role that ward leaders and other ward members can fulfill well. Home teachers and visiting teachers may be able to offer encouragement as smokers undertake this life-changing process. Ward leaders can also provide an excellent service by directing a tobacco user toward stop-smoking treatment available through hospital clinics, community centers, and organizations such as the American Lung Association and the American Cancer Society.

Remember that no one, not even someone as close as a spouse or a parent, can force another to quit. The love and acceptance of others and the awareness that others need us can be among the strongest motivations for quitting. Other strong motivations are the desire to obey the Lord’s counsel in the Word of Wisdom and the goal of receiving the blessings of faithfulness in the Church. Even so, motivation to quit develops over time. Motivation can be seen as a series of stages rather than as an all-or-nothing condition. Any movement through these stages, even a small change in attitude, is a step forward.

How Can a Parent Keep Children from Using Tobacco?
For some young people, using tobacco—either smoking it or chewing it—is little more than a statement of rebellion. In their naïveté, they rarely intend to become dependent on it. To help them, parents can work on opening communication and being supportive.

The more a child knows about tobacco and its addictive nature, the better he or she is prepared to avoid it. This education can be accomplished through guided discussions with peers in church and school settings. Many schools and health settings also have reliable pamphlets and books about tobacco. Experience shows that prevention is not accomplished through one program at school, one lesson in family home evening, or one lesson at church. Efforts toward prevention need to be ongoing. Parents, teachers, family, and friends who do not use tobacco serve as important models.

Parents sometimes blame themselves for not doing more to keep their children from using tobacco. They may feel that they have failed to set a good example or failed to insulate their children from bad influences. Parents cannot make decisions for their children, but they can teach them correct principles, love them, and help them.

Avoiding Permanent Relapse
Smokers who have difficulty quitting may feel discouraged after numerous unsuccessful attempts to quit. In fact, many tobacco users relapse several times before they quit for good. Fortunately, a return to smoking need not be permanent. An ex-tobacco user who relapses can use the experience as a way to learn more about the process of quitting. For example, perhaps ex-smokers relapse when they get together with friends who still smoke or chew tobacco. Rather than considering this as a failure, they can learn to manage situations that prompt them to relapse. They may need to ask friends and family to avoid using tobacco in their presence, and they may avoid situations where tobacco is being used. Church can be a useful setting in this regard, particularly since someone who has quit using tobacco will be surrounded largely by others who do not use tobacco.

Curbing Secondhand Smoke
Exposure to environmental tobacco smoke, commonly called secondhand smoke, can result in serious health problems for nonsmokers living or working with smokers. This danger is especially serious for children and can be life-threatening to infants. 12

A parent who smokes may not be aware that his or her smoking serves as a model for children and can also result in serious health and behavioral consequences. Children should not be exposed to tobacco smoke, particularly in enclosed spaces such as automobiles or rooms of a house. In keeping a child’s environment smoke-free, a family member is likely to find that nagging and criticizing those who smoke are not effective. A better strategy is to negotiate the need for physical distance between the cigarette smoke and the nonsmoking family members, while maintaining an attitude of love, support, and companionship.

Similarly, children should not be allowed to play with cigarettes or cigarette butts; thousands of children are poisoned each year from ingesting tobacco products. Further, a pregnant woman should make certain she does not use tobacco and is not exposed to others’ tobacco smoke. These are not merely guidelines to be followed at one’s convenience; these are matters of health and well-being for all nonsmokers, particularly children.

Reaching Out
A smoker who has support from friends and family, who seeks help and advice from a health professional, and who uses stop-smoking medications appropriately has the best chances for quitting permanently. In addition, through the process of quitting tobacco use, as with any other process of improving life, all persons can benefit from the spiritual strength and guidance available from divine sources.

People addicted to tobacco may feel alone and hopelessly mired in their condition. They may assume all the blame for harming themselves and their loved ones. In reaching out to them, Latter-day Saints should adopt the attitude of the Lord: “I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick” (Ezek. 34:16).

Widespread Use, Deadly Consequences
About one-third of adults in the world use tobacco, most of them starting as children or adolescents. Tobacco use reaches into all economic, educational, and social levels, and in some way touches the life of nearly every person on earth. Consider the following:*

• In the United States, about one-fourth of the adult population uses cigarettes. In Asian and Pacific countries, smoking rates among men rose from 50 percent in 1994 to 60 percent in 1997. In Mumbai (Bombay), India, 69 percent of men use tobacco, and 57 percent of women use smokeless tobacco. In Russia, the smoking rate among young men is 73 percent.

• Worldwide some 700 million children are exposed to secondhand tobacco smoke.

• Women are using tobacco in increasing numbers even in cultures where they traditionally have not smoked. In the United States, the average age at which girls experiment with tobacco is 12 years.

• As few as four cigarettes may be enough to set someone who experiments with tobacco on a path to becoming a regular smoker.

• The consequences of tobacco use are fatal for about four million people worldwide who die every year of tobacco-related disease, including heart and circulatory disease and cancer.

[illustration] Illustrated by Paul Mann

You Must Not Smoke


“Observe the Word of Wisdom. You cannot smoke; you must not smoke. You must not chew tobacco. … You must rise above these things which beckon with a seductive call. Be prayerful. Call on the Lord in faith, and He will hear your prayers. He loves you. He wishes to bless you.”
President Gordon B. Hinckley, “Converts and Young Men,” Ensign, May 1997, 47.

Breaking the Chains of Tobacco Use


“God help us to shake off and break the chains with which we are bound. With God’s help they can be shaken off by faith, works, prayer, constant commitment, and self-discipline. May we have the will and strength to shake off the chains that would control and destroy our progress.”
Elder Marvin J. Ashton (1915-94) of the Quorum of the Twelve, “Shake Off the Chains with Which Ye Are Bound,” Ensign, Nov. 1986, 13.

Recommended Web Sites
1. www.surgeongeneral.gov/tobacco This Web site includes a downloadable brochure, “You Can Quit Smoking,” developed by the U.S. Public Health Service. This brochure offers the best evidence-based advice currently available for smokers and other tobacco users. Copies are available by calling 1-800-358-9295 or writing to Publications Clearinghouse, P.O. Box 8547, Silver Spring, MD 20907-8547.

2. www.cdc.gov/tobacco/how2quit.htm The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention provide stop-smoking advice.

3. www.stop-tabac.ch This site, designed by Swiss university researchers, offers a well-designed questionnaire that is linked to personalized advice that can help a smoker plan to stop and avoid relapse. It is available in French, English, German, Danish, and Italian.

4. www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/womenandtobacco/ This report from the U.S. Surgeon General presents information about women and tobacco. Note the links on the page to additional helpful information to help women and girls quit using tobacco.

5. www.nida.nih.gov/researchreports/nicotine/nicotine.html This report provides scientifically sound information about nicotine and tobacco. To obtain printed copies of this report, call or write the National Clearinghouse on Alcohol and Drug Information, P.O. Box 2345, Rockville, MD 20852, 1-800-729-6686. Ask for NIDA Research Report-Nicotine Addiction: NIH Publication No. 01-4342.

Gospel topics: Word of Wisdom, self-control, faith, prayer

More on this topic: See Shirley R. Warren, “I Tried to Quit Dozens of Times,” Ensign, Mar. 1996, 65; Larry A. Tucker, “Tobacco Is Not for the Body,” Ensign, June 1991, 71; George H. Russ, “The Impact of Someone Else’s Tobacco Smoke,” Ensign, Apr. 1977, 34.
Visit www.lds.org or see Church magazines on CD.

[photos] Tobacco leaves © Photodisc; photo of man © Dynamic Graphics

[photos] Photography by Steve Bunderson





© 2004 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

[post pyramid]So let me get this straight, you are using people's information without their permission and then not letting them see it?information on dead people to be used by their posterity for research... what's wrong with that?
Why do you keep it secret? If you believe you can access the information because it's public record how can you then keep that information secret? It's darn right devious.it's not a secret. Go to the stake center and access it.

It MIGHT be on the net, I just don't know where
I do not believe it is on the internet.

Such church records are classified.

*some church records

I don't know which parts are classified.

I know the records of LIVING members are for church use only.Ok, perhaps you should have clarified that. You know these records out the the Jesuit Annals to shame.

Ok, perhaps you should have clarified that. You know these records out the the Jesuit Annals to shame.sorry? I'm only human... a teenager at that

Wow. You mormons actually seem to know what you're talking about. I saved it to a document so I'll read it again later. Thanks. I really need to read more stuff like this. I want to stop smoking but I'm always so stressed with everything. I'm worried that I'll be even more stressed out with uni when I quit. But anyway, thanks for helping. Good to know you guys are willing to help even us heathens now and then :wink:

Ah well, Jehovahas Witnesses are worse :)

Ok, perhaps you should have clarified that. You know these records out the the Jesuit Annals to shame.sorry? I'm only human... a teenager at thatSorry to not be clear. Or Sorry you have no idea what the Jesuit Annals are?

Um, I don't think posthumus baptism counts... :?

If I knew how they baptised them, then I could offer an opinion, eg. if they dig these peopel up or something then that's horrible, if they just say, OK your baptised at a service then I don't care.

Raysia:

Remember that Bush mosaic you got so angry about? The one made up out of dead soldiers faces?

You thought that was tasteless, right?

Now, explain to me the difference between that picture and what you're doing with dead peoples names.

Raysia:

Remember that Bush mosaic you got so angry about? The one made up out of dead soldiers faces?

You thought that was tasteless, right?

Now, explain to me the difference between that picture and what you're doing with dead peoples names.using dead peopels' names in the name of good and salvation= good

using dead people's faces to deface a great president and suggest that we should pull out and let the deaths of those people be in vain = bad.

Raysia:

Remember that Bush mosaic you got so angry about? The one made up out of dead soldiers faces?

You thought that was tasteless, right?

Now, explain to me the difference between that picture and what you're doing with dead peoples names.using dead peopels' names in the name of good and salvation= good

using dead people's faces to deface a great president and suggest that we should pull out and let the deaths of those people be in vain = bad.

Using dead peoples names for a weird cult ritual: NOT GOOD...

Again, I ask you: How you would YOU feel if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?

Raysia:

Remember that Bush mosaic you got so angry about? The one made up out of dead soldiers faces?

You thought that was tasteless, right?

Now, explain to me the difference between that picture and what you're doing with dead peoples names.using dead peopels' names in the name of good and salvation= good

using dead people's faces to deface a great president and suggest that we should pull out and let the deaths of those people be in vain = bad.

And we're back to opinions again.

Raysia:

Remember that Bush mosaic you got so angry about? The one made up out of dead soldiers faces?

You thought that was tasteless, right?

Now, explain to me the difference between that picture and what you're doing with dead peoples names.using dead peopels' names in the name of good and salvation= good

using dead people's faces to deface a great president and suggest that we should pull out and let the deaths of those people be in vain = bad.

And we're back to opinions again.

Yeah...but obviously nobodys opinion matters to these cultists...

So Raysia mentioned something about these unwelcomed rituals taking place with some sort of family consent.
I was very surprised to find my own grandfathers name on the site he provided the link for.
As my mother,my aunt, and myself, are his only living relatives....I find it odd that neither myself, nor my mother or aunt were consulted in this matter.
Im truly wondering the legality of this matter...
My grandfather was Lutheran throughout his life, albiet not paritucularly devout or anything...
Regardless, if he had wanted to be baptisted, even by proxy, in the Mormon Church, he would have had ample time to do so while he was alive.

Do you think this was right?

They're dead. Why does it matter? I mean, lets face it, no matter what happens to you after death you're not going to care too much about what a bunch of Moromons are doing.

As long as the Mormons aren't digging up graves or something, I don't see why anyone would complain.

In short, seems like a massive overreaction.

So Raysia mentioned something about these unwelcomed rituals taking place with some sort of family consent.
I was very surprised to find my own grandfathers name on the site he provided the link for.
As my mother,my aunt, and myself, are his only living relatives....I find it odd that neither myself, nor my mother or aunt were consulted in this matter.
Im truly wondering the legality of this matter...
My grandfather was Lutheran throughout his life, albiet not paritucularly devout or anything...
Regardless, if he had wanted to be baptisted, even by proxy, in the Mormon Church, he would have had ample time to do so while he was alive.

Do you think this was right?

Dude, he's dead. He doesn't care. All these people are doing is saying some prayers with your grandpa's name (you don't have legal right to that name, by the way, AFAIK). How does this affect you in any way, shape, or form? At the worst, maybe it would make you a little uncomfortable, but guess what? You don't have the right to be comfortable all the time.

So Raysia mentioned something about these unwelcomed rituals taking place with some sort of family consent.
I was very surprised to find my own grandfathers name on the site he provided the link for.
As my mother,my aunt, and myself, are his only living relatives....I find it odd that neither myself, nor my mother or aunt were consulted in this matter.
Im truly wondering the legality of this matter...
My grandfather was Lutheran throughout his life, albiet not paritucularly devout or anything...
Regardless, if he had wanted to be baptisted, even by proxy, in the Mormon Church, he would have had ample time to do so while he was alive.

Do you think this was right?

Dude, he's dead. He doesn't care. All these people are doing is saying some prayers with your grandpa's name (you don't have legal right to that name, by the way, AFAIK). How does this affect you in any way, shape, or form? At the worst, maybe it would make you a little uncomfortable, but guess what? You don't have the right to be comfortable all the time.

Yes..he is quite dead.
But Im not....and I DO care.
If he had wanted anything to do with Mormons, he would have done so in his time on earth.....
By what right do these people conduct this in HIS name..without so much as a phone call to his family?
He was not a Mormon, he had no desire to associate himself with them.
As far as he was concerned, his spirituality was just fine, thank you...
What makes the LDS think they can do this, regardless of his, or his family's wishes?

Thank you, Mall.

So Raysia mentioned something about these unwelcomed rituals taking place with some sort of family consent.
I was very surprised to find my own grandfathers name on the site he provided the link for.
As my mother,my aunt, and myself, are his only living relatives....I find it odd that neither myself, nor my mother or aunt were consulted in this matter.
Im truly wondering the legality of this matter...
My grandfather was Lutheran throughout his life, albiet not paritucularly devout or anything...
Regardless, if he had wanted to be baptisted, even by proxy, in the Mormon Church, he would have had ample time to do so while he was alive.

Do you think this was right?

Dude, he's dead. He doesn't care. All these people are doing is saying some prayers with your grandpa's name (you don't have legal right to that name, by the way, AFAIK). How does this affect you in any way, shape, or form? At the worst, maybe it would make you a little uncomfortable, but guess what? You don't have the right to be comfortable all the time.

Yes..he is quite dead.
But Im not....and I DO care.
If he had wanted anything to do with Mormons, he would have done so in his time on earth.....
By what right do these people conduct this in HIS name..without so much as a phone call to his family?
He was not a Mormon, he had no desire to associate himself with them.
As far as he was concerned, his spirituality was just fine, thank you...
What makes the LDS think they can do this, regardless of his, or his family's wishes?

Yes..he is quite dead.
But Im not....and I DO care.

Well I don't like whiners. Doesn't mean they shouldn't whine.

If he had wanted anything to do with Mormons, he would have done so in his time on earth.....
By what right do these people conduct this in HIS name..without so much as a phone call to his family?

You don't own his name. Again, how does this impact you in any meaningful way? How could this have ANY negative impact whatsoever?

He was not a Mormon, he had no desire to associate himself with them.
As far as he was concerned, his spirituality was just fine, thank you...
And how are the mormon's changing this? They're not! They're not hurting him, you, or anyone else.
What makes the LDS think they can do this, regardless of his, or his family's wishes?
They're actually not doing anything, as far as I know. From what i understand, they give the 'spirit' the option of converting. So it's not like it's an undead shotgun baptism. Plus, like I said before, you don't own his name.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?

Yes..he is quite dead.
But Im not....and I DO care.

Well I don't like whiners. Doesn't mean they shouldn't whine.

If he had wanted anything to do with Mormons, he would have done so in his time on earth.....
By what right do these people conduct this in HIS name..without so much as a phone call to his family?

You don't own his name. Again, how does this impact you in any meaningful way? How could this have ANY negative impact whatsoever?

He was not a Mormon, he had no desire to associate himself with them.
As far as he was concerned, his spirituality was just fine, thank you...
And how are the mormon's changing this? They're not! They're not hurting him, you, or anyone else.
What makes the LDS think they can do this, regardless of his, or his family's wishes?
They're actually not doing anything, as far as I know. From what i understand, they give the 'spirit' the option of converting. So it's not like it's an undead shotgun baptism. Plus, like I said before, you don't own his name.

No...I dont own his name...or whatever thats supposed to mean...
But I do take offense to anyone using that name in some cultish ritual that wanted nothing to do with while he was alive.
If you cant understand why that offends me, and others....maybe your not very quick on the uptake?

And how are the mormon's changing this? They're not! They're not hurting him, you, or anyone else.

Once again...the hurt comes from the insult of demeaning his faith.
He was not Mormon...he was a Lutheran.
He didnt want this "option" if he had...he, would have done so while he was alive.
These are also being done to Jewish people as well...do think they would have any interest in a Christian baptism?

As for the spirit being given the "option" of converting....he already was given that option and decided to take it up.....in another religion entirely..a baptism by proxy, is insulting to his faith, his family..and his memory.
This is nothing more than arrogance.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?

Backwoods, would you be offended if I, tonight, in my evening Prayer, asked God to Bless you personally?

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?now, see, that's different. That would have an immediate consequence.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?now, see, that's different. That would have an immediate consequence.

How is that different? It doesn't hurt anyone

[quote="Mallberta"][quote=BackwoodsSquatches]
Yes..he is quite dead.
But Im not....and I DO care.

No...I dont own his name...or whatever thats supposed to mean...

It's supposed to mean that legally speaking, they're doing nothing wrong whatsoever. You don't 'own' his name in a legal sense, and thus have no cause for complaint.

But I do take offense to anyone using that name in some cultish ritual that wanted nothing to do with while he was alive.
If you cant understand why that offends me, and others....maybe your not very quick on the uptake?

What I'm saying is that it's a pretty childish thing to be upset about. Oh noes! The Mormons are up to no good! There's no good reason to be offended by this, either. If the Mormons are wrong, it won't work and no one is worse off. If they're right, you and gramps owe them big time.


Once again...the hurt comes from the insult of demeaning his faith.
He was not Mormon...he was a Lutheran.
He didnt want this "option" if he had...he, would have done so while he was alive.
These are also being done to Jewish people as well...do think they would have any interest in a Christian baptism?

No, but they're not being baptised! I didn't think Jews or Christians (obviously excepting LDS) believed in post-mortum baptisisms anyways. Like I said, they're not digging him up or something.

As for the spirit being given the "option" of converting....he already was given that option and decided to take it up.....in another religion entirely..a baptism by proxy, is insulting to his faith, his family..and his memory.
This is nothing more than arrogance.

No, it's nothing more than religion. I don't get it, but who am I to judge? Also, how is praying for a dead guy, in private, an insult to anything or anyone? HOW DARE THEY PRETEND-BAPTIZE MY GRANDPA'S POTENTIAL SPIRIT!!!?

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?now, see, that's different. That would have an immediate consequence.

How is that different? It doesn't hurt anyoneUnder the Mormon ritual, there is no immediate consequence. All it does is offer them an extra option in life.

Your example does have an immediate consequence... according to your ritual, as soon as I get baptized I am considered a member of your church.

So the proceedure is this then, eh?
When a mormon comes across a deceased person's name, they baptise them into their faith. Although it appears on permanent records that the deceased are now mormon, their spirit has the right to reject it and pretend as if it never happened? Of course, if a family member who knew the person well doesn't condone it, they could have the name removed.. Although a name gets baptised more than once..

My thoughts..

1) It is wrong to Assume that a family member of the deceased would step forward and reclaim their dead. Most people I know are unfamilair with this practice as it is. Rather, what the Mormon Church should do is ask general consent from a persons family (or close friend or coworker if none is available) and ask first before the baptism.

2) The baptism of historical figures--some of who died for the foundation of their own religion--is just foolish and common sense and general public consent would dictate that those souls are untouchable.

3) While the argument that "You guys do not know what the souls would want in the afterlife" is good, it applies to the mormons as well. You (as a whole) musn't assume pretentiously what some seek in an afterlife, or assume that just because no family steps up, it is alright to do this.

4) The idea that "you can forget it and it does not exist". It does not apply for the boogie man, it does not apply for the bullies, it does not apply to war, it does not apply here.

5) Arguing here will do nothing. I doubt that the desciding faces of the Mormon Church frequent here when they are busy proxy baptising devoutees of other faiths or devoutees of none. Rather, as stated earlier, a letter or phone call must be sent. Heck, if half the freedom fighters here put in a letter or a word, I'm sure that would cause some stir. :)

The idea of giving others the option of Baptism into your faith does seem good on paper, but it isn't practical in the real world. If it was, then every single religion would do it and it defiles the sanctity of Baptism. It are reasons like this--actions by one overzealous person that discomforts everyone else--that have given religion a bad name in decent times. I do not hate Mormons, nor call them terrible things, but in this they are going too far, and for the sake of all peoples must stop this foolishness.


-Vincent

Backwoods, would you be offended if I, tonight, in my evening Prayer, asked God to Bless you personally?

As an Athiest....yes I would.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?now, see, that's different. That would have an immediate consequence.

How is that different? It doesn't hurt anyoneUnder the Mormon ritual, there is no immediate consequence. All it does is offer them an extra option in life.

Your example does have an immediate consequence... according to your ritual, as soon as I get baptized I am considered a member of your church.

No, actually it's just a blessing...

Well spoken, Vincent.

So the proceedure is this then, eh?
When a mormon comes across a deceased person's name, they baptise them into their faith. Although it appears on permanent records that the deceased are now mormon, their spirit has the right to reject it and pretend as if it never happened? Of course, if a family member who knew the person well doesn't condone it, they could have the name removed.. Although a name gets baptised more than once.. Wrong. They are not considered Mormon. They are simply put at the crossroads to accept it or decline it... they are not mormon by default.
And yes, they can have it removed, and no, the multiple baptisms don't happen any more, those were communications errors.

My thoughts..

1) It is wrong to Assume that a family member of the deceased would step forward and reclaim their dead. Most people I know are unfamilair with this practice as it is. Rather, what the Mormon Church should do is ask general consent from a persons family (or close friend or coworker if none is available) and ask first before the baptism.Why? it has no consequence, and it does not concern the family.

2) The baptism of historical figures--some of who died for the foundation of their own religion--is just foolish and common sense and general public consent would dictate that those souls are untouchable.I don't see it that way, sorry... there are no legal patents on souls :)

3) While the argument that "You guys do not know what the souls would want in the afterlife" is good, it applies to the mormons as well. You (as a whole) musn't assume pretentiously what some seek in an afterlife, or assume that just because no family steps up, it is alright to do this.You are acting like this ritual harms them in some way.. it does not negatively affect them in any way.

4) The idea that "you can forget it and it does not exist". It does not apply for the boogie man, it does not apply for the bullies, it does not apply to war, it does not apply here.You're talking about physical psychology, we're talking about spiritual psychology. big difference. I'm pretty sure Freud never counsuled the dead.

5) Arguing here will do nothing. I doubt that the desciding faces of the Mormon Church frequent here when they are busy proxy baptising devoutees of other faiths or devoutees of none. Rather, as stated earlier, a letter or phone call must be sent. Heck, if half the freedom fighters here put in a letter or a word, I'm sure that would cause some stir. :)Probably not.

The idea of giving others the option of Baptism into your faith does seem good on paper, but it isn't practical in the real world. If it was, then every single religion would do it and it defiles the sanctity of Baptism. It are reasons like this--actions by one overzealous person that discomforts everyone else--that have given religion a bad name in decent times. I do not hate Mormons, nor call them terrible things, but in this they are going too far, and for the sake of all peoples must stop this foolishness.


-VincentSanctity of baptism... right... you're using the catholic definition of baptism to define the Mormon rite of baptism?

I still do not see anything wrong with this.

Backwoods, would you be offended if I, tonight, in my evening Prayer, asked God to Bless you personally?

As an Athiest....yes I would.Really?

In that case, I would simply have to say that you get offended way too easily to care about.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?now, see, that's different. That would have an immediate consequence.

How is that different? It doesn't hurt anyoneUnder the Mormon ritual, there is no immediate consequence. All it does is offer them an extra option in life.

Your example does have an immediate consequence... according to your ritual, as soon as I get baptized I am considered a member of your church.

No, actually it's just a blessing...You didn't say that. You said "I babtise you into the old custom." That's the difference.

LOL Undead Shotgun Baptism... nice :)

You still haven't answered me: How would you like it if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name?I already told you I wouldn't care.

So can I babtise you into the old custom?now, see, that's different. That would have an immediate consequence.

How is that different? It doesn't hurt anyoneUnder the Mormon ritual, there is no immediate consequence. All it does is offer them an extra option in life.

Your example does have an immediate consequence... according to your ritual, as soon as I get baptized I am considered a member of your church.

No, actually it's just a blessing...You didn't say that. You said "I babtise you into the old custom." That's the difference.

Actually I we don't have such a thing as babtisms...

How about I just register you as a member when you're dead?

Backwoods, would you be offended if I, tonight, in my evening Prayer, asked God to Bless you personally?

As an Athiest....yes I would.Really?

In that case, I would simply have to say that you get offended way too easily to care about.

Really?

I would say that you belong to a quack religion, and it is conducting unwanted religious ceremonies, for people who wanted nothing to do with you, or that particular cult.

How about I just register you as a member when you're dead?

Well, either he's dead and there's no afterlife, in which case he won't care, or he'll be in heaven/hell/generic afterlife and won't care either. So... yeah. Plus, like he said, they don't register you as a member exactly.

Backwoods, would you be offended if I, tonight, in my evening Prayer, asked God to Bless you personally?

As an Athiest....yes I would.Really?

In that case, I would simply have to say that you get offended way too easily to care about.

Really?

I would say that you belong to a quack religion, and it is conducting unwanted religious ceremonies, for people who wanted nothing to do with you, or that particular cult.Unwanted rituals. How can you use that word unwanted? Who are you to speak for the will of those in the spirit world?

Really?

I would say that you belong to a quack religion, and it is conducting unwanted religious ceremonies, for people who wanted nothing to do with you, or that particular cult.

I'm going to explain this one more time. THEY ARE DEAD. THEY AREN'T GOING TO CARE WHAT A BUNCH OF MORMON'S ARE DOING. If it bothers YOU, then I gotta say you're pretty easily offended.

Christ what with the Janet Jackson thing, and now they're cancelling the Victoria Secret show, I am so goddamn sick of people whining about stupid shit. Seriously, move on, it doesn't affect you in any way.

Backwoods, would you be offended if I, tonight, in my evening Prayer, asked God to Bless you personally?

As an Athiest....yes I would.Really?

In that case, I would simply have to say that you get offended way too easily to care about.

Really?

I would say that you belong to a quack religion, and it is conducting unwanted religious ceremonies, for people who wanted nothing to do with you, or that particular cult.Unwanted rituals. How can you use that word unwanted? Who are you to speak for the will of those in the spirit world?

Who am I?

Im the grandson of one the people who were "offered an option" by your church.....thats who!

Im someone who actually knew him, and knew that if he had wanted anything to do with the LDS, he would have done something about it when he was alive.

Im someone who finds this offensive, becuase you are attempting to recruit the souls of the deceased, without so much as a by your leave of his living relatives, who would know if that was a choice he would want to make.

Thats who I am.

For instance, I am offended by Mallberta taking the lord's name in vain twice in his last post... am i going to consider legal action? Come on..

And BS: What if your grandfather, for some reason, decided to change his mind? Would you want to be held responsible for not allowing him to change? What IF we're right?

Form og fylling
Bakið tertubotn í hjartalaga kökumóti og kljúfið hann í tvennt Raysia. Milli botnanna er smurt þeyttum rjóma og einu lagi af berjum. Nota má bæði fersk ber og fryst. Stráið örlitlum sykri yfir berin áður en þau eru sett á tertuna. Smyrjið þeyttum rjóma utan á tertuna, þá er auðveldara að festa marsípankantinn utan um Raysia.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.

For instance, I am offended by Mallberta taking the lord's name in vain twice in his last post... am i going to consider legal action? Come on..

And BS: What if your grandfather, for some reason, decided to change his mind? Would you want to be held responsible for not allowing him to change? What IF we're right?

What makes you think that a similar offer wasnt made to him many times while he was alive?

Wether you may be right or not, isnt the issue....

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

For instance, I am offended by Mallberta taking the lord's name in vain twice in his last post... am i going to consider legal action? Come on..

And BS: What if your grandfather, for some reason, decided to change his mind? Would you want to be held responsible for not allowing him to change? What IF we're right?

What makes you think that a similar offer wasnt made to him many times while he was alive?

Wether you may be right or not, isnt the issue....The offer might have been made to him here. But you would deny him that in the afterlife? What IF he does change his mind? What if something in the next life changes his mind? Do you really want to keep him from changing because you get a little offended?

Come on man, weigh out the pros and cons and get over it.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

My concern is not the afterlife..my concern is the here and now.
My problem is that you are attempting to recruit people who very likely already told you "no!"

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?

remember, whatever your religion, or lack of, most of humanity thinks you're wrong :D

Feel happy know that you will also be baptised in proxy when you pass away also. (assuming you don't get baptised while still alive, which I wouldn't throw away the possibility)

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

My concern is not the afterlife..my concern is the here and now.
My problem is that you are attempting to recruit people who very likely already told you "no!"Umm... we already try to recruit people who tell us no.. haven't you seen those guys riding on bikes wearing name tags? Surely you find them equally offensive, no? Cuz to tell you the truth, They actually try harder. All we do in the temple is offer a blessing really, those guys go out and knock on your door and talk to you and try to pursuade you.

Seriously man, aren't the missionaries more offensive?

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?
You are being ignorant, closed minded, and making conclusions about things that you have never witnessed and know nothing about. Just chill, you will thank someone later for it.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

My concern is not the afterlife..my concern is the here and now.
My problem is that you are attempting to recruit people who very likely already told you "no!"Umm... we already try to recruit people who tell us no.. haven't you seen those guys riding on bikes wearing name tags? Surely you find them equally offensive, no? Cuz to tell you the truth, They actually try harder. All we do in the temple is offer a blessing really, those guys go out and knock on your door and talk to you and try to pursuade you.

Seriously man, aren't the missionaries more offensive?

No, there is someone that CAN say no to the missionaries, and the missionaries don't invade your privacy.
Though, I do find the missionaries bloody annoying.

Wouldn't this be a better system if you guys actually sought permission before doing this ritual?
No, not from the dead one, either before they die or from relatives.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?
You are being ignorant, closed minded, and making conclusions about things that you have never witnessed and know nothing about. Just chill, you will thank someone later for it.

:roll: I don't want them doing it to me or anyone I'm related to...I don't care what it is.
This is not about me being ignorant. It's about me objecting to some crazy cult using my name or the name of my family in their rituals.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?
You are being ignorant, closed minded, and making conclusions about things that you have never witnessed and know nothing about. Just chill, you will thank someone later for it.

i agree with tu, how the fuck is a poor person in russia going to contact you if they dont want this thing happening?

Man, next thing you people are going to demand express written consent for the use of Ouija Boards.

This thread is officially one of the dumbest I have ever seen.

On "cult" or "cultist" references: All religions are technically cults.*
On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.
On changing one's mind in the afterlife: Regardless of the faiths they held on Earth, I imagine most people would love the opportunity to accept a baptism by proxy if they found out that they needed to be baptized to have an enjoyable time after death.

*Assuming I'm any good at reading dictionaries.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?
You are being ignorant, closed minded, and making conclusions about things that you have never witnessed and know nothing about. Just chill, you will thank someone later for it.

:roll: I don't want them doing it to me or anyone I'm related to...I don't care what it is.
This is not about me being ignorant. It's about me objecting to some crazy cult using my name or the name of my family in their rituals.
Thats ignorance right there buddy. When was the last time you went to a Mormon Church service?

No, there is someone that CAN say no to the missionaries, and the missionaries don't invade your privacy.
Though, I do find the missionaries bloody annoying.

Wouldn't this be a better system if you guys actually sought permission before doing this ritual?
No, not from the dead one, either before they die or from relatives.Why? We don't ask permission from relatives of living people, why dead?

Man, next thing you people are going to demand express written consent for the use of Ouija Boards.

This thread is officially one of the dumbest I have ever seen.Thank you... I wish someone would lock it or something

No, there is someone that CAN say no to the missionaries, and the missionaries don't invade your privacy.
Though, I do find the missionaries bloody annoying.

Wouldn't this be a better system if you guys actually sought permission before doing this ritual?
No, not from the dead one, either before they die or from relatives.Why? We don't ask permission from relatives of living people, why dead?

The difference being that when one is dead he can't object...

Yeah, BS, I thought you were the really open-minded one here :P

Thank you... I wish someone would lock it or somethingWe're almost halfway to a lock being forced on us. :shock:

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.

On "cult" or "cultist" references: All religions are technically cults.*
On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.
On changing one's mind in the afterlife: Regardless of the faiths they held on Earth, I imagine most people would love the opportunity to accept a baptism by proxy if they found out that they needed to be baptized to have an enjoyable time after death.

*Assuming I'm any good at reading dictionaries.A cult is, by simple definition, any unorthodox or unusual religion.

In a sense, we are a cult. But with 11 million members, which is more than many christian sects, I'd say we passed the definition of "unusual" a long time ago.

No, there is someone that CAN say no to the missionaries, and the missionaries don't invade your privacy.
Though, I do find the missionaries bloody annoying.

Wouldn't this be a better system if you guys actually sought permission before doing this ritual?
No, not from the dead one, either before they die or from relatives.Why? We don't ask permission from relatives of living people, why dead?

The difference being that when one is dead he can't object...yes, he can. That's what we've said 1087613 times in this thread.

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?
You are being ignorant, closed minded, and making conclusions about things that you have never witnessed and know nothing about. Just chill, you will thank someone later for it.

:roll: I don't want them doing it to me or anyone I'm related to...I don't care what it is.
This is not about me being ignorant. It's about me objecting to some crazy cult using my name or the name of my family in their rituals.
Thats ignorance right there buddy. When was the last time you went to a Mormon Church service?

That's not ignorance. That's just me saying I don't want them doing it.

And I've never been to a Mormon Church service... If I want to hang out with people that think the garden of Eden is a parking lot in Missouri I'll get a job at a mental hospital.

A cult is, by simple definition, any unorthodox or unusual religion.I like to look at all the definitions. Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say:
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Are you sure?

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

No, there is someone that CAN say no to the missionaries, and the missionaries don't invade your privacy.
Though, I do find the missionaries bloody annoying.

Wouldn't this be a better system if you guys actually sought permission before doing this ritual?
No, not from the dead one, either before they die or from relatives.Why? We don't ask permission from relatives of living people, why dead?

The difference being that when one is dead he can't object...yes, he can. That's what we've said 1087613 times in this thread.

That's how YOU see it, not me...

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

You are causing people trouble...Look at me, I'm upset :tantrum:

This is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. Just because it is being done for them doesn't mean they have to accept it. They can reject what is done from them and say that they want nothing to do with it if they want. It is THEIR choice. The church is not forcing aything upon anyone, they are simply giving everyone that ever lived the opportunity to accept it, if they already heard the message or not. Get over it, man o man.

That's what YOU believe.
Most people don't want that crap. Have you ever heard of the REAL power of voodoo? It's psychological.Umm, yeah, what does it matter what you believe? how exactly does it affect you if we are wrong about the afterlife?

To simplify it even more:
Don't you get it? People don't want you doing weird things with their names, isn't that enough for you?

And this system of "someone having to contact you" to ban you from doing it...That's absolute crap. Do you think someone in Russia even knows what you're doing with their dead husbands name?
You are being ignorant, closed minded, and making conclusions about things that you have never witnessed and know nothing about. Just chill, you will thank someone later for it.

:roll: I don't want them doing it to me or anyone I'm related to...I don't care what it is.
This is not about me being ignorant. It's about me objecting to some crazy cult using my name or the name of my family in their rituals.
Thats ignorance right there buddy. When was the last time you went to a Mormon Church service?

You don't have to attend a Mormon Church service to find their practices unethical.
You don't have to commit murder or adultery to decide that they are unethical.
Your argument is a "red herring".
The point remains that the dead are unable to give consent.
If there are, as claimed Mormon missionaries in the afterlife (a prospect I would find horrifying) then they can go about their grisly buiiness, obtaining consent as they go.

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

it is obviously causing trouble...these people families don't want it done. I didn't ask for my name to be used but it was. The point is you guys will do what you want because you think it is right.

The verse you guys use justify this practice was written long before you guys ever started doing it....but then you guys just started the practice because someone told you to...

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

it is obviously causing trouble...these people families don't want it done. I didn't ask for my name to be used but it was. The point is you guys will do what you want because you think it is right.

The verse you guys use justify this practice was written long before you guys ever started doing it....but then you guys just started the practice because someone told you to...your name has not been used.

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

it is obviously causing trouble...these people families don't want it done. I didn't ask for my name to be used but it was. The point is you guys will do what you want because you think it is right.

The verse you guys use justify this practice was written long before you guys ever started doing it....but then you guys just started the practice because someone told you to...your name has not been used.

Yes my name has been used...thank you very much. Along with several other members of my family..including my dead grandmother!!! Again no one asked!!!

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!...read the thread, I have said this 1000000 times.

The baptism is performed for all, whether they choose to accept it is what finishes it. If they choose to accept it and make the covenant, then the baptism takes effect. If the baptism is declined, then it is as if it never happened.

Why on earth is this so hard to understand? There are now 30 pages of this same thing over and over!

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

it is obviously causing trouble...these people families don't want it done. I didn't ask for my name to be used but it was. The point is you guys will do what you want because you think it is right.

The verse you guys use justify this practice was written long before you guys ever started doing it....but then you guys just started the practice because someone told you to...your name has not been used.

Yes my name has been used...thank you very much. Along with several other members of my family..including my dead grandmother!!! Again no one asked!!!...how could your name have been used if you are still alive? You speak nonsense.

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!...read the thread, I have said this 1000000 times.

The baptism is performed for all, whether they choose to accept it is what finishes it. If they choose to accept it and make the covenant, then the baptism takes effect. If the baptism is declined, then it is as if it never happened.

Why on earth is this so hard to understand? There are now 30 pages of this same thing over and over!

Come on, what sence does it make for this to even happen. Why would God make this one church, requardless of how many temple worthy members it has, do baptistism for every single person who ever lived. where is the logic in that?

I have a question then. There is a verse in the Bible(can't remember the address righ this second) but it says if there is anything that you do that cause another to stumble, or cause another one trouble, heartache than you are to stop.

So if this Baptism for the Dead is causing people trouble...you guys should stop right!?! Or don't you believe in that verse. Is that one of the verse you guys omitted...or is that just one you wrote in your other book...THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE...where you change verses to fit how you guys live.It by no means causes people trouble, especially not the ones we are doing the baptisms for.

If anyone is troubled by this, it is out of fear and ignorance, to which the onyl thing we can do is have open discussions like this and hope they understand.

it is obviously causing trouble...these people families don't want it done. I didn't ask for my name to be used but it was. The point is you guys will do what you want because you think it is right.

The verse you guys use justify this practice was written long before you guys ever started doing it....but then you guys just started the practice because someone told you to...your name has not been used.

Yes my name has been used...thank you very much. Along with several other members of my family..including my dead grandmother!!! Again no one asked!!!...how could your name have been used if you are still alive? You speak nonsense.

I think the nonsense comes from you...You guys baptist for people whether they are dead or alive. Don't just try to tell us it is for the dead. The truth is you guys do everyone. Specially if a family member is a mormom...you guys baptism for the entire family as far back as you guys can trace...

Come on, what sence does it make for this to even happen. Why would God make this one church, requardless of how many temple worthy members it has, do baptistism for every single person who ever lived. where is the logic in that?Said best here:

Boyd K. Packer, “The Redemption of the Dead,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97
I have reason, my brother and sisters, to feel very deeply about the subject that I have chosen for today, and to feel more than the usual need for your sustaining prayers, because of its very sacred nature.

When the Lord was upon the earth He made it very clear that there was one way, and one way only, by which man may be saved. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.) To proceed on that way, these two things emerge as being very fixed. First, in His name rests the authority to secure the salvation of mankind. “For there is none other name under heaven given … whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12.) And next, there is an essential ordinance—baptism—standing as a gate through which every soul must pass to obtain eternal life.

The Lord was neither hesitant nor was He apologetic in proclaiming exclusive authority over those processes, all of them in total, by which we may return to the presence of our Heavenly Father. This ideal was clear in the minds of His apostles also, and their preaching provided for one way, and one way only, for men to save themselves.

Over the centuries men saw that many, indeed most, never found that way. This became very hard to explain. Perhaps they thought it to be generous to admit that there are other ways. So they tempered or tampered with the doctrine.

This rigid emphasis on “one Lord and one baptism,” was thought to be too restrictive, and too exclusive, even though the Lord Himself had described it as being narrow, for, “Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life.” (Matt. 7:14.)

Since baptism is essential there must be an urgent concern to carry the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. That came as a commandment from Him.

His true servants will be out to convert all who will hear to the principles of the gospel and they will offer them that one baptism which He proclaimed as essential. The preaching of the gospel is evident to one degree or another in most Christian churches. Most, however, are content to enjoy whatever they can gain from membership in their church without any real effort to see that others hear about it.

The powerful missionary spirit and the vigorous missionary activity in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints becomes a very significant witness that the true gospel and that the authority are possessed here in the Church. We accept the responsibility to preach the gospel to every person on earth. And if the question is asked, “You mean you are out to convert the entire world?” the answer is, “Yes. We will try to reach every living soul.”

Some who measure that challenge quickly say, “Why, that’s impossible! It cannot be done!”

To that we simply say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”

Against the insinuation that it cannot be done, we are willing to commit every resource that can be righteously accumulated to this work. Now, while our effort may seem modest when measured against the challenge, it is hard to ignore when measured against what is being accomplished, or even what is being attempted, elsewhere.

Presently we have over 21,000 missionaries serving in the field—and paying for the privilege. And that’s only part of the effort. Now I do not suggest that the number should be impressive, for we do not feel we are doing nearly as well as we should be. And more important than that, any one of them would be evidence enough if we knew the source of the individual conviction that each carries.

We ask no relief of the assignment to seek out every living soul, teach them the gospel, and offer them baptism. And we’re not discouraged, for there is a great power in this work and that can be verified by anyone who is sincerely inquiring.

Now there is another characteristic that identifies His Church and also has to do with baptism. There is a very provoking and a very disturbing question about those who died without baptism. What about them? If there is none other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved (and that is true), and they have lived and died without even hearing that name, and if baptism is essential (and it is), and they died without even the invitation to accept it, where are they now?

That is hard to explain. It describes most of the human family.

There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?

That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?

When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question.

If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized.

Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved.

Since they had no answer concerning the fate of those who had not been baptized, Christians came to believe that baptism itself was not critical in importance, and that the name of Christ may not be all that essential. There must, they supposed, be other names whereby man could be saved.

The answer to that puzzling challenge could not be invented by men, but was revealed. I underline the word revealed. Revelation too is an essential characteristic of His Church. Communication with Him through revelation was established when the Church was established. It has not ceased and it is constant in the Church today.

As I address myself to the question of those who died without baptism, I do so with the deepest reverence, for it touches on a sacred work. Little known to the world, we move obediently forward in a work that is so marvelous in its prospects, transcendent above what man might have dreamed of, supernal, inspired, and true. In it lies the answer.

In the earliest days of the Church the Prophet was given direction through revelation that work should commence on the building of a temple, akin to the temples that had been constructed anciently. There was revealed ordinance work to be performed there for the salvation of mankind.

Then another ancient scripture, ignored or overlooked by the Christian world in general, was understood and moved into significant prominence: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29.)

Here then, was the answer. With proper authority an individual could be baptized for and in behalf of someone who had never had the opportunity. That individual would then accept or reject the baptism, according to his own desire.

This work came as a great reaffirmation of something very basic that the Christian world now only partly believes: and that is that there is life after death. Mortal death is no more an ending than birth was a beginning. The great work of redemption goes on beyond the veil as well as here in mortality.

The Lord said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:25.)

On October 3, 1918, President Joseph F. Smith was pondering on the scriptures, including this one from Peter: “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6.)

There was opened to him a marvelous vision. In it he saw the concourses of the righteous. And he saw Christ ministering among them. Then he saw those who had not had the opportunity, and those who had not been valiant. And he saw the work for their redemption. And I quote his record of this vision:

“I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; but behold, from among the righteous he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men. And thus was the gospel preached to the dead.” (“Vision of the Redemption of the Dead,” The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, Jan. 1919, p. 3.) [D&C 138:29-30]

We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it.

Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances.

“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth.

And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”

And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so.

“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”

To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”

And once again we certify that we are not discouraged. We ask no relief of the assignment, no excuse from fulfilling it. Our effort today is modest indeed when viewed against the challenge. But since nothing is being done for them elsewhere, our accomplishments, we have come to know, have been pleasing to the Lord.

Already we have collected hundreds of millions of names, and the work goes forward in the temples and will go on in other temples that will be built. The size of the effort we do not suggest should be impressive, for we are not doing nearly as well as we should be.

Those who thoughtfully consider the work inquire about those names that cannot be collected. “What about those for whom no record was ever kept? Surely you will fail there. There is no way you can search out those names.”

To this I simply observe, “You have forgotten revelation.” Already we have been directed to many records through that process. Revelation comes to individual members as they are led to discover their family records in ways that are miraculous indeed. And there is a feeling of inspiration attending this work that can be found in no other. When we have done all that we can do, we shall be given the rest. The way will be opened up.

Every Latter-day Saint is responsible for this work. Without this work, the saving ordinances of the gospel would apply to so few who have ever lived that it could not be claimed to be true.

There is another benefit from this work that relates to the living. It has to do with family life and the eternal preservation of it. It has to do with that which we hold most sacred and dear—the association with our loved ones in our own family circle.

Something of the spirit of this can be sensed as I quote from a letter from my own family records. I quote a letter dated January the 17th, 1889, Safford, Graham County, in Arizona. It concerns my great-grandfather, who was the first of our line in the Church, and who died a few days later, Jonathan Taylor Packer. This letter was written by a daughter-in-law to the family.

After describing the distress and difficulty he had suffered for several weeks, she wrote:

“But I will do all I can for him for I consider it my duty. I will do for him as I would like someone to do for my dear mother, for I am afraid I shall never see her again in this world.”

And then she wrote this: “Your father says for you all to be faithful to the principles of the gospel and asks the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob upon you all, and bids you all goodbye until he meets you in the morning of the resurrection.

“Well, Martha, I can’t hardly see the lines for tears, so I will stop writing. From your loving sister, Mary Ann Packer.”

I know that I shall see this great-grandfather beyond the veil, and my grandfather, and my father. And I know that I shall there also meet those of my ancestors who lived when the fulness of the gospel was not upon the earth; those who lived and died without ever hearing His name, nor having the invitation to be baptized.

I say that no point of doctrine sets this church apart from the other claimants as this one does. Save for it, we would, with all of the others, have to accept the clarity with which the New Testament declares baptism to be essential and then admit that most of the human family could never have it.

But we have the revelations. We have those sacred ordinances. The revelation that places upon us the obligation for this baptism for the dead is section 128 in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I should like to read in closing two or three of the closing verses of that section.

“Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; …

“Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! …

“Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple … a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.” (D&C 128:22-24.)

I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!...read the thread, I have said this 1000000 times.

The baptism is performed for all, whether they choose to accept it is what finishes it. If they choose to accept it and make the covenant, then the baptism takes effect. If the baptism is declined, then it is as if it never happened.

Why on earth is this so hard to understand? There are now 30 pages of this same thing over and over!

Listen to me very carefully:
I don't want this done to me or anyone in my family...I'm telling you now!

Can you guarantee that it won't be done?

Yeah, those Mormons sure are unethical, always causing trouble. No morals, those Mormons.

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!...read the thread, I have said this 1000000 times.

The baptism is performed for all, whether they choose to accept it is what finishes it. If they choose to accept it and make the covenant, then the baptism takes effect. If the baptism is declined, then it is as if it never happened.

Why on earth is this so hard to understand? There are now 30 pages of this same thing over and over!

Come on, what sence does it make for this to even happen. Why would God make this one church, requardless of how many temple worthy members it has, do baptistism for every single person who ever lived. where is the logic in that?
Simply read the Bible, and find out for yourself.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".

Listen to me very carefully:
I don't want this done to me or anyone in my family...I'm telling you now!

Can you guarantee that it won't be done?For craps sake, I've posted this 20 times. If you are that sure you do not want to be baptized, write a letter to:
LDS Church office Building
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3800


or call 801-240-2190.

Man, if you are that upset, then just tell them you don't want it done.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".

I'm a non-Mormon, and I think eveyrone is being really, really retarded about this. Especially the atheists, who don't believe in souls anyways. THe bottom line is that no one is being hurt. PEriod. No one's rights are infringed upon in any way whatsoever. I think it's especially Ironic that a lot of people I've seen post in the last few pages claim to be 'tolerant', but then are jumping down Raysia and Rosk throats for no good reason. I also suspect no one is actually reading each others posts whatsoever.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".

My mystical powers that enable me to see into the future tell me that Raysia's answer will be something like:
"But it's not offensive! I've told you so a million times"

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".Funny, I'm pretty well convinced that the few ignorant people who are offended by this harmless ritual are in the minority.

Listen to me very carefully:
I don't want this done to me or anyone in my family...I'm telling you now!

Can you guarantee that it won't be done?For craps sake, I've posted this 20 times. If you are that sure you do not want to be baptized, write a letter to:
LDS Church office Building
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3800


or call 801-240-2190.

Man, if you are that upset, then just tell them you don't want it done.

And actually hand those guys my name on paper...NO WAY!

Listen to me very carefully:
I don't want this done to me or anyone in my family...I'm telling you now!

Can you guarantee that it won't be done?For craps sake, I've posted this 20 times. If you are that sure you do not want to be baptized, write a letter to:
LDS Church office Building
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3800


or call 801-240-2190.

Man, if you are that upset, then just tell them you don't want it done.

And actually hand those guys my name on paper...NO WAY!there's a 90% chance they already have it. If you tell them no, they'll respect your wish (up until the 2nd coming, of course)

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".

I'm a non-Mormon, and I think eveyrone is being really, really retarded about this. Especially the atheists, who don't believe in souls anyways. THe bottom line is that no one is being hurt. PEriod. No one's rights are infringed upon in any way whatsoever. I think it's especially Ironic that a lot of people I've seen post in the last few pages claim to be 'tolerant', but then are jumping down Raysia and Rosk throats for no good reason. I also suspect no one is actually reading each others posts whatsoever.thank you again

Listen to me very carefully:
I don't want this done to me or anyone in my family...I'm telling you now!

Can you guarantee that it won't be done?For craps sake, I've posted this 20 times. If you are that sure you do not want to be baptized, write a letter to:
LDS Church office Building
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3800


or call 801-240-2190.

Man, if you are that upset, then just tell them you don't want it done.

And actually hand those guys my name on paper...NO WAY!there's a 90% chance they already have it. If you tell them no, they'll respect your wish (up until the 2nd coming, of course)

Well, I'm not going to make this easier for them...There still is a chance that they don't have it.

Up untill what? What's a 2nd coming?

Raysia, there is no way that you, I, or anyone can explain such a sacred and important thing in such a situation where people are unwilling to want to learn with sincerity rather then to just say that the Church is a "crazy cult". You and I know that something like this can't be properly explained without the Spirit present.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?More like, if they weren't close-minded anti-mormons, they'd understand.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?
no, if there was sincerity of heart to learn, rather than to criticize, attack, and demoralize, then.

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

Did you have Hitler's and Genghis Khan's relatives' consent? Those are people I'd like to meet.

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

Did you have Hitler's and Genghis Khan's relatives' consent? Those are people I'd like to meet.I'm sorry, I meant to say "baptize jewish holocaust victims" which is the original topic.

The fact of the matter is that you should be thanking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints rather than hating it. If someone believed something so much and loved me enough to want to insure that I would have an opportunity to "be saved" rather than "go to hell" because they believed so I would be thankful that they cared enough about me to want that for me.

The fact of the matter is that you should be thanking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints rather than hating it. If someone believed something so much and loved me enough to want to insure that I would have an opportunity to "be saved" rather than "go to hell" because they believed so I would be thankful that they cared enough about me to want that for me.

you see, other religions believe you are completly wrong, and this 'baptism offering' is offensive and might even get them kicked out of heaven

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?
no, if there was sincerity of heart to learn, rather than to criticize, attack, and demoralize, then.

Ah...but you see, I belong to another religion, I have no interest in your religion, nor do I want to be part of it. In fact, I find it so crazy that if I didn't know about it, I'd think you were making this stuff up...But that's beside the point...My point is that I don't want anything to do with your religion and that is my right... But you're not allowing me that.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?More like, if they weren't close-minded anti-mormons, they'd understand.

Doesn't matter who they are or what they are...Not being part of some weird cult ritual is everyones right.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?
no, if there was sincerity of heart to learn, rather than to criticize, attack, and demoralize, then.

Ah...but you see, I belong to another religion, I have no interest in your religion, nor do I want to be part of it. In fact, I find it so crazy that if I didn't know about it, I'd think you were making this stuff up...But that's beside the point...My point is that I don't want anything to do with your religion and that is my right... But you're not allowing me that.
This is where the you not understanding part comes in.

The fact of the matter is that you should be thanking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints rather than hating it. If someone believed something so much and loved me enough to want to insure that I would have an opportunity to "be saved" rather than "go to hell" because they believed so I would be thankful that they cared enough about me to want that for me.

you see, other religions believe you are completly wrong, and this 'baptism offering' is offensive and might even get them kicked out of heavenWhy? If we are wrong, then this has no spiritual affect on them, it's just a bunch of crazy people dunking themselves in water. Why would some "cult"'s practices have an effect on you if in fact we are wrong?

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?More like, if they weren't close-minded anti-mormons, they'd understand.

Doesn't matter who they are or what they are...Not being part of some weird cult ritual is everyones right.really... exactly which part of the constitution protects your name from being used in a mormon ritual...?

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!...read the thread, I have said this 1000000 times.

The baptism is performed for all, whether they choose to accept it is what finishes it. If they choose to accept it and make the covenant, then the baptism takes effect. If the baptism is declined, then it is as if it never happened.

Why on earth is this so hard to understand? There are now 30 pages of this same thing over and over!

Come on, what sence does it make for this to even happen. Why would God make this one church, requardless of how many temple worthy members it has, do baptistism for every single person who ever lived. where is the logic in that?
Simply read the Bible, and find out for yourself.

hmm thanks oh wise one, but I've done that and no where does it say to Baptise for the dead....

hmm thanks oh wise one, but I've done that and no where does it say to Baptise for the dead....Did you even read the article I posted? it talks about the bible talking about baptisms for the dead. here, i'll do it again!

Boyd K. Packer, “The Redemption of the Dead,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97
I have reason, my brother and sisters, to feel very deeply about the subject that I have chosen for today, and to feel more than the usual need for your sustaining prayers, because of its very sacred nature.

When the Lord was upon the earth He made it very clear that there was one way, and one way only, by which man may be saved. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.) To proceed on that way, these two things emerge as being very fixed. First, in His name rests the authority to secure the salvation of mankind. “For there is none other name under heaven given … whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12.) And next, there is an essential ordinance—baptism—standing as a gate through which every soul must pass to obtain eternal life.

The Lord was neither hesitant nor was He apologetic in proclaiming exclusive authority over those processes, all of them in total, by which we may return to the presence of our Heavenly Father. This ideal was clear in the minds of His apostles also, and their preaching provided for one way, and one way only, for men to save themselves.

Over the centuries men saw that many, indeed most, never found that way. This became very hard to explain. Perhaps they thought it to be generous to admit that there are other ways. So they tempered or tampered with the doctrine.

This rigid emphasis on “one Lord and one baptism,” was thought to be too restrictive, and too exclusive, even though the Lord Himself had described it as being narrow, for, “Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life.” (Matt. 7:14.)

Since baptism is essential there must be an urgent concern to carry the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. That came as a commandment from Him.

His true servants will be out to convert all who will hear to the principles of the gospel and they will offer them that one baptism which He proclaimed as essential. The preaching of the gospel is evident to one degree or another in most Christian churches. Most, however, are content to enjoy whatever they can gain from membership in their church without any real effort to see that others hear about it.

The powerful missionary spirit and the vigorous missionary activity in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints becomes a very significant witness that the true gospel and that the authority are possessed here in the Church. We accept the responsibility to preach the gospel to every person on earth. And if the question is asked, “You mean you are out to convert the entire world?” the answer is, “Yes. We will try to reach every living soul.”

Some who measure that challenge quickly say, “Why, that’s impossible! It cannot be done!”

To that we simply say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”

Against the insinuation that it cannot be done, we are willing to commit every resource that can be righteously accumulated to this work. Now, while our effort may seem modest when measured against the challenge, it is hard to ignore when measured against what is being accomplished, or even what is being attempted, elsewhere.

Presently we have over 21,000 missionaries serving in the field—and paying for the privilege. And that’s only part of the effort. Now I do not suggest that the number should be impressive, for we do not feel we are doing nearly as well as we should be. And more important than that, any one of them would be evidence enough if we knew the source of the individual conviction that each carries.

We ask no relief of the assignment to seek out every living soul, teach them the gospel, and offer them baptism. And we’re not discouraged, for there is a great power in this work and that can be verified by anyone who is sincerely inquiring.

Now there is another characteristic that identifies His Church and also has to do with baptism. There is a very provoking and a very disturbing question about those who died without baptism. What about them? If there is none other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved (and that is true), and they have lived and died without even hearing that name, and if baptism is essential (and it is), and they died without even the invitation to accept it, where are they now?

That is hard to explain. It describes most of the human family.

There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?

That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?

When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question.

If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized.

Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved.

Since they had no answer concerning the fate of those who had not been baptized, Christians came to believe that baptism itself was not critical in importance, and that the name of Christ may not be all that essential. There must, they supposed, be other names whereby man could be saved.

The answer to that puzzling challenge could not be invented by men, but was revealed. I underline the word revealed. Revelation too is an essential characteristic of His Church. Communication with Him through revelation was established when the Church was established. It has not ceased and it is constant in the Church today.

As I address myself to the question of those who died without baptism, I do so with the deepest reverence, for it touches on a sacred work. Little known to the world, we move obediently forward in a work that is so marvelous in its prospects, transcendent above what man might have dreamed of, supernal, inspired, and true. In it lies the answer.

In the earliest days of the Church the Prophet was given direction through revelation that work should commence on the building of a temple, akin to the temples that had been constructed anciently. There was revealed ordinance work to be performed there for the salvation of mankind.

Then another ancient scripture, ignored or overlooked by the Christian world in general, was understood and moved into significant prominence: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29.)

Here then, was the answer. With proper authority an individual could be baptized for and in behalf of someone who had never had the opportunity. That individual would then accept or reject the baptism, according to his own desire.

This work came as a great reaffirmation of something very basic that the Christian world now only partly believes: and that is that there is life after death. Mortal death is no more an ending than birth was a beginning. The great work of redemption goes on beyond the veil as well as here in mortality.

The Lord said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:25.)

On October 3, 1918, President Joseph F. Smith was pondering on the scriptures, including this one from Peter: “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6.)

There was opened to him a marvelous vision. In it he saw the concourses of the righteous. And he saw Christ ministering among them. Then he saw those who had not had the opportunity, and those who had not been valiant. And he saw the work for their redemption. And I quote his record of this vision:

“I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; but behold, from among the righteous he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men. And thus was the gospel preached to the dead.” (“Vision of the Redemption of the Dead,” The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, Jan. 1919, p. 3.) [D&C 138:29-30]

We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it.

Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances.

“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth.

And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”

And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so.

“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”

To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”

And once again we certify that we are not discouraged. We ask no relief of the assignment, no excuse from fulfilling it. Our effort today is modest indeed when viewed against the challenge. But since nothing is being done for them elsewhere, our accomplishments, we have come to know, have been pleasing to the Lord.

Already we have collected hundreds of millions of names, and the work goes forward in the temples and will go on in other temples that will be built. The size of the effort we do not suggest should be impressive, for we are not doing nearly as well as we should be.

Those who thoughtfully consider the work inquire about those names that cannot be collected. “What about those for whom no record was ever kept? Surely you will fail there. There is no way you can search out those names.”

To this I simply observe, “You have forgotten revelation.” Already we have been directed to many records through that process. Revelation comes to individual members as they are led to discover their family records in ways that are miraculous indeed. And there is a feeling of inspiration attending this work that can be found in no other. When we have done all that we can do, we shall be given the rest. The way will be opened up.

Every Latter-day Saint is responsible for this work. Without this work, the saving ordinances of the gospel would apply to so few who have ever lived that it could not be claimed to be true.

There is another benefit from this work that relates to the living. It has to do with family life and the eternal preservation of it. It has to do with that which we hold most sacred and dear—the association with our loved ones in our own family circle.

Something of the spirit of this can be sensed as I quote from a letter from my own family records. I quote a letter dated January the 17th, 1889, Safford, Graham County, in Arizona. It concerns my great-grandfather, who was the first of our line in the Church, and who died a few days later, Jonathan Taylor Packer. This letter was written by a daughter-in-law to the family.

After describing the distress and difficulty he had suffered for several weeks, she wrote:

“But I will do all I can for him for I consider it my duty. I will do for him as I would like someone to do for my dear mother, for I am afraid I shall never see her again in this world.”

And then she wrote this: “Your father says for you all to be faithful to the principles of the gospel and asks the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob upon you all, and bids you all goodbye until he meets you in the morning of the resurrection.

“Well, Martha, I can’t hardly see the lines for tears, so I will stop writing. From your loving sister, Mary Ann Packer.”

I know that I shall see this great-grandfather beyond the veil, and my grandfather, and my father. And I know that I shall there also meet those of my ancestors who lived when the fulness of the gospel was not upon the earth; those who lived and died without ever hearing His name, nor having the invitation to be baptized.

I say that no point of doctrine sets this church apart from the other claimants as this one does. Save for it, we would, with all of the others, have to accept the clarity with which the New Testament declares baptism to be essential and then admit that most of the human family could never have it.

But we have the revelations. We have those sacred ordinances. The revelation that places upon us the obligation for this baptism for the dead is section 128 in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I should like to read in closing two or three of the closing verses of that section.

“Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; …

“Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! …

“Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple … a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.” (D&C 128:22-24.)

I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?
no, if there was sincerity of heart to learn, rather than to criticize, attack, and demoralize, then.

Ah...but you see, I belong to another religion, I have no interest in your religion, nor do I want to be part of it. In fact, I find it so crazy that if I didn't know about it, I'd think you were making this stuff up...But that's beside the point...My point is that I don't want anything to do with your religion and that is my right... But you're not allowing me that.
This is where the you not understanding part comes in.

No, I understand perfectly...There is a good chance my name will be used in a weird cultist ritual whether I want to or not, and you don't give a damn about my consent (or anyones consent for that matter).

DUde, unless you can show defamation or something, the Moromons have every right to use your name in a ritual.

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?
no, if there was sincerity of heart to learn, rather than to criticize, attack, and demoralize, then.

Ah...but you see, I belong to another religion, I have no interest in your religion, nor do I want to be part of it. In fact, I find it so crazy that if I didn't know about it, I'd think you were making this stuff up...But that's beside the point...My point is that I don't want anything to do with your religion and that is my right... But you're not allowing me that.
This is where the you not understanding part comes in.

No, I understand perfectly...There is a good chance my name will be used in a weird cultist ritual whether I want to or not, and you don't give a damn about my consent (or anyones consent for that matter).Of course, given you don't write a letter.... *roll*

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?More like, if they weren't close-minded anti-mormons, they'd understand.

Doesn't matter who they are or what they are...Not being part of some weird cult ritual is everyones right.really... exactly which part of the constitution protects your name from being used in a mormon ritual...?

"The constitution" ? Don't be an idiot...We don't have the same constitution as you do.

And actually...Here in Iceland we've got a laws on privacy of information and the usage of personal information.
I'd like to know their take on all this.

but what if someone *couldnt* write a letter?

You continue to miss the point Raysia.
That is why the thread goes for 30 + pages.
Nobody except fellow Mormons appreciate your justifications for this practice.
Non Mormons find it objectionable, presumptious, arrogant and offensive.
Surely their objections are as important (or more important) than your "justifications".
They find it objectionable because they don't understand it. If they fully understand what was happening they wouldn't have a problem. If they fully understand what the church was all about and didn't make blind conclusions about it, then things would be a whole lot different. It is as simple as that, there is no way that you will see the point of view of the church until you know what it is that you are talking about.

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?
no, if there was sincerity of heart to learn, rather than to criticize, attack, and demoralize, then.

Ah...but you see, I belong to another religion, I have no interest in your religion, nor do I want to be part of it. In fact, I find it so crazy that if I didn't know about it, I'd think you were making this stuff up...But that's beside the point...My point is that I don't want anything to do with your religion and that is my right... But you're not allowing me that.
This is where the you not understanding part comes in.

No, I understand perfectly...There is a good chance my name will be used in a weird cultist ritual whether I want to or not, and you don't give a damn about my consent (or anyones consent for that matter).Of course, given you don't write a letter.... *roll*

I don't trust you, or anyone in your church...It's as simple as that.
There should be at least SOME effort to get consent.

but what if someone *couldnt* write a letter?

That's not how this thing works, buddy.
Step by Step
1) You die (unbaptized)
2) You float around
3) Mormons do their ritual, and ask you
"Hey, do you want to be baptized a Mormon?"
a) You say 'OK' and that's that, they've just done you a favour
b) You say 'Screw you, you crazy freaks!' and you don't get baptized.

You can spiritually opt out! You don't automatically become a Mormon!
So they'd just say no, and no one is in any way, shape, or form worse off.

On apparent lack of consent in particular cases: Perhaps another relative gave consent before dying.




I wasnt consulted, niether was anyone else who my grandfather was related to.Again, why should we consult relatives? We don't consult relatives when baptizing the living, why the dead?

the living make the choice if they want it or not....the dead do not!...read the thread, I have said this 1000000 times.

The baptism is performed for all, whether they choose to accept it is what finishes it. If they choose to accept it and make the covenant, then the baptism takes effect. If the baptism is declined, then it is as if it never happened.

Why on earth is this so hard to understand? There are now 30 pages of this same thing over and over!

Come on, what sence does it make for this to even happen. Why would God make this one church, requardless of how many temple worthy members it has, do baptistism for every single person who ever lived. where is the logic in that?
Simply read the Bible, and find out for yourself.

hmm thanks oh wise one, but I've done that and no where does it say to Baptise for the dead....
You must have accidently skipped this verse: 1 Corinthians 15:29

I don't trust you, or anyone in your church...It's as simple as that.
There should be at least SOME effort to get consent.W H Y ? ! ?

It is not up to you whether your relative gets these blessings.

It is up to them and them alone.

but what if someone *couldnt* write a letter?

That's not how this thing works, buddy.
Step by Step
1) You die (unbaptized)
2) You float around
3) Mormons do their ritual, and ask you
"Hey, do you want to be baptized a Mormon?"
a) You say 'OK' and that's that, they've just done you a favour
b) You say 'Screw you, you crazy freaks!' and you don't get baptized.

You can spiritually opt out! You don't automatically become a Mormon!
So they'd just say no, and no one is in any way, shape, or form worse off.

You mean I could actually go to one of these babtisms and check it out beforehand to make sure they aren't a crazy cult that believes in magic underwear?

I don't trust you, or anyone in your church...It's as simple as that.
There should be at least SOME effort to get consent.W H Y ? ! ?

It is not up to you whether your relative gets these blessings.

It is up to them and them alone.

Then you should ask them BEFORE they die.

but what if someone *couldnt* write a letter?

That's not how this thing works, buddy.
Step by Step
1) You die (unbaptized)
2) You float around
3) Mormons do their ritual, and ask you
"Hey, do you want to be baptized a Mormon?"
a) You say 'OK' and that's that, they've just done you a favour
b) You say 'Screw you, you crazy freaks!' and you don't get baptized.

You can spiritually opt out! You don't automatically become a Mormon!
So they'd just say no, and no one is in any way, shape, or form worse off.See? not a mormon. Understands it completely.

The difference? He's not ignorant. He actually reads what we've posted 84108741 times and understands our viewpoint, regardless of whether we are crazy or not.

You mean I could actually go to one of these babtisms and check it out beforehand to make sure they aren't a crazy cult that believes in magic underwear?

No, you'd be dead and floating around or whatever, ghosting it up. The Mormons do their ritual, which doesn't MAKE you a Mormon, it simply gives you the CHOICE. Your ghost doesn't tell them or anything, he works it out with God. Unless the Mormons are wrong, in which case this is all pretty moot.

I don't trust you, or anyone in your church...It's as simple as that.
There should be at least SOME effort to get consent.W H Y ? ! ?

It is not up to you whether your relative gets these blessings.

It is up to them and them alone.

Then you should ask them BEFORE they die.Opinions can change in the next life.but what if someone *couldnt* write a letter?

That's not how this thing works, buddy.
Step by Step
1) You die (unbaptized)
2) You float around
3) Mormons do their ritual, and ask you
"Hey, do you want to be baptized a Mormon?"
a) You say 'OK' and that's that, they've just done you a favour
b) You say 'Screw you, you crazy freaks!' and you don't get baptized.

You can spiritually opt out! You don't automatically become a Mormon!
So they'd just say no, and no one is in any way, shape, or form worse off.

You mean I could actually go to one of these babtisms and check it out beforehand to make sure they aren't a crazy cult that believes in magic underwear?No, you can't, and yes, we do have "magic underwear" as you so disgracefully put it.

I don't trust you, or anyone in your church...It's as simple as that.
There should be at least SOME effort to get consent.W H Y ? ! ?

It is not up to you whether your relative gets these blessings.

It is up to them and them alone.

Then you should ask them BEFORE they die.Opinions can change in the next life.but what if someone *couldnt* write a letter?

That's not how this thing works, buddy.
Step by Step
1) You die (unbaptized)
2) You float around
3) Mormons do their ritual, and ask you
"Hey, do you want to be baptized a Mormon?"
a) You say 'OK' and that's that, they've just done you a favour
b) You say 'Screw you, you crazy freaks!' and you don't get baptized.

You can spiritually opt out! You don't automatically become a Mormon!
So they'd just say no, and no one is in any way, shape, or form worse off.

You mean I could actually go to one of these babtisms and check it out beforehand to make sure they aren't a crazy cult that believes in magic underwear?No, you can't, and yes, we do have "magic underwear" as you so disgracefully put it.

Ah...So nobody can see those rituals either?
How do I know you aren't feeding those souls to Cthulhu or something?

Then you should ask them BEFORE they die.1) Not everyone can be asked. See my locked-in-a-closet example.
2) They might change their minds after they find out they were wrong.

Then you should ask them BEFORE they die.1) Not everyone can be asked. See my locked-in-a-closet example.
2) They might change their minds after they find out they were wrong.

1) Too bad, then you shouldn't ask them.
2) Again...irrelevant.

1) Too bad, then you sholdn't ask them.Their suffering should continue after death? :o
2) Again...irrelevant.Where did you say I've said irrelevant things before? :?

1) Too bad, then you sholdn't ask them.Their suffering should continue after death? :o
2) Again...irrelevant.Where did you say I've said irrelevant things before? :?

Both these arguements have been made a 100 times in this thread.
And been refuted.

But now it's time for me to go to work, so I have to leave.
Thanks for the debate...I guess we'll continue it another time.

Both these arguements have been made a 100 times in this thread.
And been refuted.No, they've been mostly ignored.* (Actually, I'm fairly consistently ignored everywhere I go on the web. :?)

I have to go, too.

*As far as I saw. I probably missed a few posts here and there.

Ah...So nobody can see those rituals either?
How do I know you aren't feeding those souls to Cthulhu or something?...you're kidding me, right?

I have now officially stopped taking you seriously.

Both these arguements have been made a 100 times in this thread.
And been refuted.

But now it's time for me to go to work, so I have to leave.
Thanks for the debate...I guess we'll continue it another time.

You didn't refute them. You didn't even address them. God I hate the internet sometimes.

The whole thing is stupid, but this bit is particularly mormonic:All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.
Auschwitz Germany? Jesus H. Christ! (and latter day saints?)

What do you expect from folks who baptize the dead? But what is the harm of this idiotic arrogance? Why are these Jews wasting their time with this shit? I am sure that any unconsentual posthumous symbolic baptism can have no effect on thier souls according to Jewish law. This is a matter fit for ridicule rather than litigation. The Mormons ought to be free to hold on to their pompous illusions.

Both these arguements have been made a 100 times in this thread.
And been refuted.

But now it's time for me to go to work, so I have to leave.
Thanks for the debate...I guess we'll continue it another time.

You didn't refute them. You didn't even address them. God I hate the internet sometimes.I guess it's true what they say...
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... even if you win, you're still a retard. :D

God is just, and he even wants *YOU* to return to live with him, what a great guy. The fact of the matter is that everyone must be baptised to enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 10:48 and many others) So those people who don't have the opportunity to hear the message or don't fully understand it now can learn more after death and decide whether or not to accept it then. God sure is smart too!

---
they are baptising dead people? isnt that a bit disrespectful, especially when the baptised people arent mormons?

They're dead. It doesn't matter what the mormons do. They don't even have the bodies, just a list of names and a bucket of water. Baptised or not, how can anyone who didn't choose to accept baptism be 'saved' anyway? Now if they were holding 'proxy baptisms' for the living without consent, then I could see Jewish people being annoyed. As it is, I'd think they'd all be shaking their heads and saying "Oy, look at the moyshe kapoyer!"

You know what amazes me? People have this bizarre reaction to 'dishonoring the dead' but (generalisation approaching, please duck under the table) they don't seem to give a hoot how much the living are dishonored.

God is just, and he even wants *YOU* to return to live with him, what a great guy. The fact of the matter is that everyone must be baptised to enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 10:48 and many others) So those people who don't have the opportunity to hear the message or don't fully understand it now can learn more after death and decide whether or not to accept it then. God sure is smart too!The Book of Magic Pants says that one's corpse must be pissed on to enter The Kindgom of Heaven (Trousers 2:16). There is even a Jack Chick comic about it. So don't bellyache when we dig up your grandmother and take a good long leak on her face. It's for her own good. Praise Jebus!

God is just, and he even wants *YOU* to return to live with him, what a great guy. The fact of the matter is that everyone must be baptised to enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 10:48 and many others) So those people who don't have the opportunity to hear the message or don't fully understand it now can learn more after death and decide whether or not to accept it then. God sure is smart too!The Book of Magic Pants says that one's corpse must be pissed on to enter The Kindgom of Heaven (Trousers 2:16). There is even a Jack Chick comic about it. So don't bellyache when we dig up your grandmother and take a good long leak on her face. It's for her own good. Praise Jebus!That would be illegal, and completely sick.

We're talking about giving a prayer for someone.... nothing close to pissing on a grave... come on people.

God is just, and he even wants *YOU* to return to live with him, what a great guy. The fact of the matter is that everyone must be baptised to enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 10:48 and many others) So those people who don't have the opportunity to hear the message or don't fully understand it now can learn more after death and decide whether or not to accept it then. God sure is smart too!The Book of Magic Pants says that one's corpse must be pissed on to enter The Kindgom of Heaven (Trousers 2:16). There is even a Jack Chick comic about it. So don't bellyache when we dig up your grandmother and take a good long leak on her face. It's for her own good. Praise Jebus!
OUCH! I'm peirced to the soul in disrespect. :cry:

Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?!

watch, this thread will be locked at 666 replies :P

Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?!

Consider how you would feel if you were told that you, once dead, would be baptised as a Catholic.

And so would all your ancestors.

Find it disturbing do you?

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.

watch, this thread will be locked at 666 replies :P

*waits expectantly*

Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?!

Consider how you would feel if you were told that you, once dead, would be baptised as a Catholic.

And so would all your ancestors.

Find it disturbing do you?
Nope, makes sense to me because I would be mad that the Catholic Church is so exclusive and allows so many good people to needlessly go to hell. They believe that you have to be baptised to go to heaven, and there are billions of people that don't even know who Christ is. So, it would make sense if they baptised me for what they thought was the true and correct church of Christ.

Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?!

Consider how you would feel if you were told that you, once dead, would be baptised as a Catholic.

And so would all your ancestors.

Find it disturbing do you?I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.Baptised INTO your churches? I would be offended.

but we are not baptizing them as mormons, merely giving them the option to be.

Holy crap, READ!

Whatever ..the intention is the same.

What about the rest of my post?

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.
sure, if you were to grab me by my hair and force me to be baptised into "the church of satan" I would be pretty upset. But thats not what is happening. And I was going to continue until I realized what comparisons I was about to make, and that doesn't make me comfortable :?

Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?!

Consider how you would feel if you were told that you, once dead, would be baptised as a Catholic.

And so would all your ancestors.

Find it disturbing do you?I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.Baptised INTO your churches? I would be offended.

but we are not baptizing them as mormons, merely giving them the option to be.

Holy crap, READ!

Don't be so evasive.
What are you baptising them as? Mormon? Catholic? Satanist?
How about if you were baptised as a Catholic (i.e. in a Catholic cermony by a Catholic priest) to give you the "option" to be a Catholic?

Whatever ..the intention is the same.

What about the rest of my post?You mean:

If, post-humously, a ritual were performed in my name as an offer of potential salvation if I choose to accept it in the afterlife, would I be offended?

Of course not! I might be weirded out, and probably decline, but I'd thank them for the harmless gesture.

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.
sure, if you were to grab me by my hair and force me to be baptised into "the church of satan" I would be pretty upset. But thats not what is happening. And I was going to continue until I realized what comparisons I was about to make, and that doesn't make me comfortable :?

fine....

if I were to perform some sort of Satanic ritual using your relatives name, with some sort of mystical intention....would you, or would you not find this offensive?

Whatever ..the intention is the same.

What about the rest of my post?You mean:

If, post-humously, a ritual were performed in my name as an offer of potential salvation if I choose to accept it in the afterlife, would I be offended?

Of course not! I might be weirded out, and probably decline, but I'd thank them for the harmless gesture.

No....this.

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.
sure, if you were to grab me by my hair and force me to be baptised into "the church of satan" I would be pretty upset. But thats not what is happening. And I was going to continue until I realized what comparisons I was about to make, and that doesn't make me comfortable :?

fine....

if I were to perform some sort of Satanic ritual using your relatives name, with some sort of mystical intention....would you, or would you not find this offensive?
Its all based on the intention... thats my final answer.

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.
sure, if you were to grab me by my hair and force me to be baptised into "the church of satan" I would be pretty upset. But thats not what is happening. And I was going to continue until I realized what comparisons I was about to make, and that doesn't make me comfortable :?

fine....

if I were to perform some sort of Satanic ritual using your relatives name, with some sort of mystical intention....would you, or would you not find this offensive?
Its all based on the intention... thats my final answer.

Right.

and the intention is..to recruit the souls of the deceased.
People that would ahve already gone to the Mormons, if they had wanted to, while they were alive.

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity..
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants.
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.

If I were to baptise you, by proxy, into the church of satan...you would have the same reaction.
sure, if you were to grab me by my hair and force me to be baptised into "the church of satan" I would be pretty upset. But thats not what is happening. And I was going to continue until I realized what comparisons I was about to make, and that doesn't make me comfortable :?

fine....

if I were to perform some sort of Satanic ritual using your relatives name, with some sort of mystical intention....would you, or would you not find this offensive?
Its all based on the intention... thats my final answer.

Right.

and the intention is..to recruit the souls of the deceased.
People that would ahve already gone to the Mormons, if they had wanted to, while they were alive.
maybe, they still deserve an opportunity to make a choice once they are presented the truth and they understand it fully.

People that would ahve already gone to the Mormons, if they had wanted to, while they were alive.But some did not even know they exist...

God is just, and he even wants *YOU* to return to live with him, what a great guy. The fact of the matter is that everyone must be baptised to enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 10:48 and many others) So those people who don't have the opportunity to hear the message or don't fully understand it now can learn more after death and decide whether or not to accept it then. God sure is smart too!The Book of Magic Pants says that one's corpse must be pissed on to enter The Kindgom of Heaven (Trousers 2:16). There is even a Jack Chick comic about it. So don't bellyache when we dig up your grandmother and take a good long leak on her face. It's for her own good. Praise Jebus!
OUCH! I'm peirced to the soul in disrespect. :cry:I meant no disrespect, we're only trying to give your grandmother's soul the option to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Havn't you been reading this thread?Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?! That is ridiculous. The Church of Jebus' Magic Pants does have a practice that is similar to the untrained eye though. It is called The Eating of the Shorts.

oh yea and, "recruit" is not the right word. The purpose isn't just to add to the massive number of Mormons in the world, its simply to give everyone the same opportunity to go to heaven. Don't you want that, I sure do.

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity.. Validity? Umm, yeah... that means: If we're right, we're helping, if we're wrong, we're crazy...
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants. A slap in the face? Howso? All it is is another missionary effort...
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true. I know the truth, I uess I am just not that good at explaining it over the internet.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.What facts? There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.

Come on man, any fool knows that you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters.

God is just, and he even wants *YOU* to return to live with him, what a great guy. The fact of the matter is that everyone must be baptised to enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 10:48 and many others) So those people who don't have the opportunity to hear the message or don't fully understand it now can learn more after death and decide whether or not to accept it then. God sure is smart too!The Book of Magic Pants says that one's corpse must be pissed on to enter The Kindgom of Heaven (Trousers 2:16). There is even a Jack Chick comic about it. So don't bellyache when we dig up your grandmother and take a good long leak on her face. It's for her own good. Praise Jebus!
OUCH! I'm peirced to the soul in disrespect. :cry:I meant no disrespect, we're only trying to give your grandmother's soul the option to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Havn't you been reading this thread?Why don't you guys go after catholics for transsubstantiation? They seriously believe they are eating Christ's body and his blood.

They are technically cannibals.

Why are none of you far more grossed out by this?! That is ridiculous. The Church of Jebus' Magic Pants does have a practice that is similar to the untrained eye though. It is called The Eating of the Shorts.
AND THE WINNER IS: the dude that belongs to the church of magic pants!!!!

please... mods... lock this thread...

What facts? There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.

Come on man, any fool knows that you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters.You have just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences :lol:

Unless you meant 'every fool' literaly...

What facts? There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.

Come on man, any fool knows that you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters.You have just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences :lol:howso?

Bye for real! *Waves*

Baptised INTO your churches? I would be offended.

but we are not baptizing them as mormons, merely giving them the option to be.

Holy crap, READ!

however, to some people, being baptized is the same as being placed INTO the church. I know that your personal opinion is that you're giving them the option. But my personal opinion is being baptized is the same thing as entering a religion. So participating in a Christian baptism would mean that you are officially part of the Christian religion. But that's just what this humble little agnostic believes. If some of ya'll just want to ignore that idea (that some people don't believe it's a choice and that it's a forced conversion, since that person can't defend themselves) then feel free to completely skip this post. But this is, once again, just one of my own opinions.

why should the mods lock this thread? no one is flaming or anything :?

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity.. Validity? Umm, yeah... that means: If we're right, we're helping, if we're wrong, we're crazy...
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants. A slap in the face? Howso? All it is is another missionary effort...
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true. I know the truth, I uess I am just not that good at explaining it over the internet.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.What facts? There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.

Come on man, any fool knows that you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters.


Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.

Baptised INTO your churches? I would be offended.

but we are not baptizing them as mormons, merely giving them the option to be.

Holy crap, READ!

however, to some people, being baptized is the same as being placed INTO the church. I know that your personal opinion is that you're giving them the option. But my personal opinion is being baptized is the same thing as entering a religion. So participating in a Christian baptism would mean that you are officially part of the Christian religion. But that's just what this humble little agnostic believes. If some of ya'll just want to ignore that idea (that some people don't believe it's a choice and that it's a forced conversion, since that person can't defend themselves) then feel free to completely skip this post. But this is, once again, just one of my own opinions.In that case, you are applying the Christian definition of baptism with the mormon one.

why should the mods lock this thread? no one is flaming or anything :?Because it is dragging on... and on... and on... and getting nowhere

I think that not only is this practice questionable in its validity.. Validity? Umm, yeah... that means: If we're right, we're helping, if we're wrong, we're crazy...
it also is a slap in the face of the deceased persons faith, or lack thereof, and an insult to the persons living descendants. A slap in the face? Howso? All it is is another missionary effort...
Raysia, you can say what you wish, but you know that this is true. I know the truth, I uess I am just not that good at explaining it over the internet.

Why cant you understand why we are getting upset about this?
Becuase you, like your church..are ignoring those facts.What facts? There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.

Come on man, any fool knows that you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters.


Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.
Thats cool, cause thats what everyone believes about other's beliefs anyway. We all think that we, ourselves, are right.

People that would ahve already gone to the Mormons, if they had wanted to, while they were alive.But some did not even know they exist...

well if god didnt take notice of them, thats probably how he wanted it to be (i really like the fact that god is almighty,it makes it easer to argue :) )

Baptised INTO your churches? I would be offended.

but we are not baptizing them as mormons, merely giving them the option to be.

Holy crap, READ!

however, to some people, being baptized is the same as being placed INTO the church. I know that your personal opinion is that you're giving them the option. But my personal opinion is being baptized is the same thing as entering a religion. So participating in a Christian baptism would mean that you are officially part of the Christian religion. But that's just what this humble little agnostic believes. If some of ya'll just want to ignore that idea (that some people don't believe it's a choice and that it's a forced conversion, since that person can't defend themselves) then feel free to completely skip this post. But this is, once again, just one of my own opinions.In that case, you are applying the Christian definition of baptism with the mormon one.

no, I was using the Christian religion as an example. I don't know if that's really how it is with them. Feel free to replace that with any other religion.

Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.I'd be offended by your actions, but I wouldn't hate you or anything.

Do you realize how many churches out there have "save the mormons" programs? Do you realize how many times I personally have been attacked by the people those programs breed? I get more offended about that than anything else.

Do I hate them? No.

Do I want to take action against them? No more than anyone else in this world.

What facts? There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.

Come on man, any fool knows that you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters.You have just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences :lol:howso?If there are no facts in spiritual matters then you cannot positively say anything about them. Lets say that in my spiritual oriontation I rigourously apply temporal physics to all matters of the soul. According to the axiom "There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters.", ths is perfectly allrght.

"you can't apply temporal physics to spiritual matters" presents a 'fact' about 'spiritual matters' and thus contradicts the statement "There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters" and the proposed spiritual beleif.why should the mods lock this thread? no one is flaming or anything :?Because it is dragging on... and on... and on... and getting nowhereThen just stop posting in it and let it either sink to the bottom, or get locked when it passes the post limit.

Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.I'd be offended by your actions, but I wouldn't hate you or anything.

Do you realize how many churches out there have "save the mormons" programs? Do you realize how many times I personally have been attacked by the people those programs breed? I get more offended about that than anything else.

Do I hate them? No.

Do I want to take action against them? No more than anyone else in this world.
word, raysia, word. That brings up the topic of "The Double Standard"

Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.I'd be offended by your actions, but I wouldn't hate you or anything.

Do you realize how many churches out there have "save the mormons" programs? Do you realize how many times I personally have been attacked by the people those programs breed? I get more offended about that than anything else.

Do I hate them? No.

Do I want to take action against them? No more than anyone else in this world.

Right.

So...you..of all people should know what its like to have your religious beliefs crapped on...this is what that ritual is doing.

YOU dont think so..but YOUR feelings dont matter in this case....do you understand?

(attempting to unstick the thread. pg. 36 is in limbo....)

*is now reverting back to my original thesis*

Y'all 're too e's'ly offended!

How dare you insult the Curch of Jebus' Magic Pants! We are not easily offended. :evil:

I lioved in Utah for 3 years.

St George.

Hell On Earth.

Attack of the Blond Haired Blue Eyed Devil Ppl

They Batised Buddah. They are fools!!!

Well back to living there, every damned month they would come to my door and give me a bibe, and every month i would take it and throw it in a box. It was horrible because as soonas ive relaxed, turned on a violent video game that involves rescuing stuff, and then blowing it up *Ding Dong*


I must say, I had tha FUN OF MY LIFE one time.

2 Mormon walked up to the house the same time 2 Jahova Witness ppl did. It was helarious, they both started arguing the good lord. As i sat there with my caffine filled soday, and glutton sized bar of german chocolate i watched them duke it out for a half hour.

they both left, and neither side had made it to the door.

Let me begin by quoting you, Raysia. "There are no facts when it comes to spiritual matters." And it is because of such that giving spirits the option of salvation after they are dead is foolhardy. Without solid facts, it is pretentious to unwillingly involve the souls of others into a ceremony of your own. A prayer is one thing. A baptism--by any definition--is completely different.

Besides, if there are--as you say--missionaries doing their business in the next life, then why give option to the dead from this end? It is as you said: the ways of the temporal do not apply to the spiritual :wink:

Now, you asked us what is so important about a name. Names are not just series of characters or letters pulled out of a name book and spanked onto your baby. They are identifiers, telling the world who is who. And unlike baby-name-book names, alot of names have meaning and are often times named for someone of importants, in or out of the family. To disrespect a name, as many are complaining this does, insults their identity. It makes light of who they are, treats them as little more than commodities, and can even go so far as to erase their history.

Long story short, there is too much anti-proxy baptism sentiment and too many alternatives to make this an option that would keep the mormon faith with what respect it has obtain. No one is saying that Mormons themselves are the problem, and if they are its their own ideas, but rather it is the practice itself. If you are--in your compassion--worried about those who have known the Word of the Lord as your faith sees fit, then send out Missionaries. They may seem an annoyance, but at least you'll get your point across. Heck, if they're doing it in the afterlife as you say, might as well deploy a few more if saving the world is your bag :wink:


-Vincent

They Batised Buddah. That shoots down the 'our posthumous baptism is all about letting the soul DECIDE' line as Buddah is in a state of Nirvana and is thus devoid of any decesion-making capacities.

This is absolutely horrifying (sp?). Why would they do this? They are quite sick indeed (and show no respect for the dead regardless of their religion).

This is a matter specific to a particular religion which harms no one; let's leave it alone.

live and let live.

f--- mormons, f--- Jehova's witnesses, ah heck, f--- em all.

You can't be accused of being descriminatory. :D

f--- mormons, f--- Jehova's witnesses, ah heck, f--- em all.

You can't be accused of being descriminatory. :D

f******g fair-minded, I think. :wink:

Ah...So nobody can see those rituals either?
How do I know you aren't feeding those souls to Cthulhu or something?...you're kidding me, right?

I have now officially stopped taking you seriously.

Prove that you aren't...

Then you should ask them BEFORE they die.1) Not everyone can be asked. See my locked-in-a-closet example.
2) They might change their minds after they find out they were wrong.

Everyone says these haven't been refuted...Once again:

1) It doesn't matter. You shouldn't be doing it against peoples will

2) It doesn't matter. You shouldn't be doing it against peoples will

In some ways, it really is analogous to rape. Let's say, you, a rapist, believes that your "seed" IS a gift. Therefore, you don't care about whether or not people WANT your "gift", because you KNOW they "really" do. Same principle. Now YOU'RE getting mad that WE'RE getting mad. What do you expect me to do, bend over and spread?Now you're still misunderstanding. It's not forcing anything on anyone. It's not converting you whether you want it or not. it's making it POSSIBLE to convert.

I don't CARE if YOU don't think that it's offensive. I do, and I have the RIGHT to think so. And, more importantly, I SHOULD have the right to control what happens to me when I'm dead. Non-Mormons should have the right to control what happens to their community members. You had no RIGHT to baptize Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...

NO RIGHT.Like I said. If you are so damned sure you don't want this, then write a letter to the LDS Main Office at 50 East North Temple, Salt Lake City, UT, or call them at 801-240-2190 and request that your name not be baptized.

you ALWAYS have a choice.


LOL!!!! This is like what telemarketers would love to do.
"You are now enrolled in our program, unless you go through the bother of specifically calling us and telling us you do not want this offer."

Raysia -- people are offended by this. Agreements have been MADE to stop it, which apparently are conveniently not being kept. Doesn't the fact that atheists, Jews, Catholics, Agnostics, Muslims and others have stated categorically that this practice deeply offends them give you a hint that perhaps the practice is wrong?

I also notice that you seem to change your story. You baptize everyone, but only with a close relative's consent. Yet people for whom no consent could be given are baptized, yet it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, then don't do it -- God will always recognize His own, and a ritual performed by man is completely unnecessary especially done without the informed consent of the participants.

For those Catholics saying it damns you -- I am not sure. Recently we had the unhappy event in our family of a child being stillborn. My brother begged the priest who had come to comfort and support him and his wife through the ordeal to baptize the child, but the priest told him very gently that it was impossible... it is impossible in our faith to baptize the dead. Period. It was his opinion that the child was already in the hands of God since it had never lived nor had the opportunity to sin, and that it was certainly possible to pray for it.

That said, baptism by proxy offends the life out of me for the reasons others have stated. I have made my choice, right or wrong, and the consequences of that choice are between me and my God.

For the Mormon asking how baptism by proxy is different than baptising a baby after birth: it IS different. 1) The child is alive and has a soul which can be invited in this case. 2) The child's parents are responsible for his or her well-being until the age of consent, and can choose to bring a child up in the spiritual upbringing they feel appropriate, the same way they feed the child nutritious food and care for its health 3) The child him or herself then undergoes a Confirmation ceremony, in which s/he states, "I, as a consenting, rational adult, accept this faith. In essence, a child is able to decide NOT to follow the faith by not accepting Confirmation. Living adults who are baptized have also made an informed decision to join the faith.

Baptizing the dead is at the very least silly and at most offensive and arrogant, especially to those of us who do not believe the Church of Latter Day Saints to be the true religion (no matter what true religion one believes).

I also believe that missionaries of any stripe who insist on trying to convert anyone are offensive. I won't try to make you a good Catholic -- kindly afford me the same courtesy.

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil: Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice.

TELEMARKETING and SPAM.

This is absolutely horrifying (sp?). Why would they do this? They are quite sick indeed (and show no respect for the dead regardless of their religion).

I assume the Mormons are doing this because, by the tenets of their religion, it is the right and proper thing for them to do. One might equally ask why missionaries, of any stripe, feel the need to go out and try to impose their religions and moralities on other peoples and cultures across the planet. "Baptising the dead" is far less offensive than this, IMO, since it doesn't actually do anything to anybody.

Think about it: either the Mormons are right, or they are wrong. If they are right, then they are doing a good thing and everyone is better for it. Not likely, IMO again, but there you are. If they are wrong, then you have nothing to worry about -- unless you believe in a bizarre afterlife (somewhat akin to the Mormons' own view, from what I can see) in which people can't get their putative post-life rewards unless they have the correct metaphysical papers. What sort of Supreme Being would need or want such a bureacracy?

Basically, it looks to me like people are offended because the Mormons are behaving as if their belief system is right and everyone else's is wrong. What's new -- or even unique to the Mormons -- about that? I've had enough Christians tell me I was going to hell for not believing in some version or other of Jesus.

On the plus side, the Mormons are providing a valuable database of records for historians and genealogists. If only all religions could be so practical and useful. Baptise away, Mormons -- you're wasting your time, but you're not alone there either. Why anyone cares is a mystery to me.

Backwoods, let's go with that for a moment, and break this down to the core.

If we're right, and you go to hell or whatever, then you'll at least have the choice to change the scenery.

If we're wrong, then we're just crazy mormons dunking people in water in the names of dead people.


Indeed, lets go with this....

The point of what these people object to....and listen carefully....

IT DOESNT MATTER if your wrong or not....it is DISRESPECTFUL to that person faith...

Do you understand?almost every religion in the world can be said to do something disrespectful to another faith... why pick on us?

Catholics say everyone else is going to hell, and they are damned for eternity.
Protestants say catholics and mormons are going to hell, and are damned for eternity.
Mormons say that everyone not mormon is going to hell, but they can still have a choice to convert to mormonism in the afterlife.

Are we seriously the most offensive ones out there?

also, very few Protestant groups feel Catholics are hell bound
very few Catholics feel Protestants are damned-- both feel the the other is dogmatically flawed. Mormons, I'm sad to say, are condemned because they blaspheme the word and the nature of Jehovahbut now you're getting off topic.

No, seems he's just refuting your assertion.

Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.I'd be offended by your actions, but I wouldn't hate you or anything.

Do you realize how many churches out there have "save the mormons" programs? Do you realize how many times I personally have been attacked by the people those programs breed? I get more offended about that than anything else.

Do I hate them? No.

Do I want to take action against them? No more than anyone else in this world.

I think the most offensive part of this is that the Jewish people have been picked on forever, both for things they supposedly did in the past, and because of what they believe. Those who died in concentration camps died because of their faith, so the Mormons have no right to do this to them after their deaths.

I also have just always had problems with the mormon church. I really don't understand how some guy can suddenly say he talked to God or whatever, and that Jesus came to North America (why the hell would He ever do that?). The Church's history has had many instances of fraud. Anyone remember the Salamander letter?

By the beliefs of my people baptism is a symbol, after the fact, of a state of spiritual attainment and discipleship.

It holds no power in itself but merely acknowledges a person's progress in the life of the spirit.

Therefore I am personally incapable of being offended by this; at best it is a reconfirmation; at worst it is ineffectual.

By the beliefs of my people baptism is a symbol, after the fact, of a state of spiritual attainment and discipleship.

It holds no power in itself but merely acknowledges a person's progress in the life of the spirit.

Therefore I am personally incapable of being offended by this; at best it is a reconfirmation; at worst it is ineffectual.

It had to be the mormans!!! Only the mornans would think of something like this!!! :shock: :twisted:

It had to be the mormans!!! Only the mornans would think of something like this!!! :shock: :twisted:

I think the most offensive part of this is that the Jewish people have been picked on forever, both for things they supposedly did in the past, and because of what they believe. Those who died in concentration camps died because of their faith, so the Mormons have no right to do this to them after their deaths.

The Mormons aren't actually doing anything to anybody: they're just saying that they are. It's like me inducting all Americans who died in Vietnam into the Fourth International: from this moment forward, all those dead GIs are now card-carrying Trotskyists! I'll get the names off the war memorial and make a membership list. Will it be real? Do you believe it?

I also have just always had problems with the mormon church. I really don't understand how some guy can suddenly say he talked to God or whatever, and that Jesus came to North America (why the hell would He ever do that?). The Church's history has had many instances of fraud. Anyone remember the Salamander letter?

Remember St Paul, and how he "met Jesus" on the road to Damascus? Remember the Donation of Constantine, or the Blood Libel (ironically pinned first on the Christians by the Romans, and then on the Jews by the Christians), or uncountable phoney relics ("the skull of St Peter as a child"), or selling indulgences on sins not yet committed? The Gospel according to St Thomas? One man's religion is another man's baloney. Take the lot of it with a hefty pinch of salt.

Well, I can see this thread is going on till the better end. Noone's getting anywhere. Can't we just accept that whatever your religion, if other religions different from yours are wrong, then why would anything they do be offensive to you? I'm pretty sure my relatives have been bi-proxy baptized but it dosn't matter to me because I don't believe what they believe, therefore this ritual means nothing to me.

They baptized buddha?

They baptized buddha?

They baptized EVERYONE :!: Even communists! So even joseph stalin could be in heaven right now.

wow, a lot of ignorant rednecks here today...

wow, a lot of ignorant rednecks here today...

And I thought you liked me.... :cry: :wink:

wow, a lot of ignorant rednecks here today...

And I thought you liked me.... :cry: :wink:not you, jackasses like this guy:
It had to be the mormans!!! Only the mornans would think of something like this!!! :shock: :twisted:

I'm pretty sure my relatives have been bi-proxy baptized but it dosn't matter to me because I don't believe what they believe, therefore this ritual means nothing to me.See guys? why can't you be like Dolvich?

I'm pretty sure my relatives have been bi-proxy baptized but it dosn't matter to me because I don't believe what they believe, therefore this ritual means nothing to me.See guys? why can't you be like Dolvich?

Thankyou. The world would be a better place if everyone was a little more like me. :D

I'm pretty sure my relatives have been bi-proxy baptized but it dosn't matter to me because I don't believe what they believe, therefore this ritual means nothing to me.See guys? why can't you be like Dolvich?

Thankyou. The world would be a better place if everyone was a little more like me. :Dyou're a model of tolerance, brother

I am baptising all Mormons as Sumamba Buwhanian Moon Worshipers
with this internet ritual:

Hermaphroditic chain smoke....

(*)(*)
(_)_)))))))))))))))))D~
(y)

Hail the Moon

Free the minds
Free the minds
Free the minds

Hail the Moon.

*sprinkles green tea on the genetalia of a female whore born under the sign of Scorpio*

God please help them to get into Heaven when they die.

to which I roll my eyes and thank you for the nice, but rediculous offer.

to which I roll my eyes and thank you for the nice, but rediculous offer.

Sorry you don't have a choice..lol hehe :P

well fine, if you don't want to go to heaven then that is your choice. I don't think God appreciates an offer to get into Heaven as ridiculous. The Moon worshippers want to save your soul. If you died yesterday , you would have gone to Hell, but now that I helped save you, you have a choice to believe the truth and therefore a chance to get into Heaven.

also... you are welcome. :)

to which I roll my eyes and thank you for the nice, but rediculous offer.

Sorry you don't have a choice..lol hehe :Pfor crap's sake, lock this thread!

Sumamba and Steph: Since you obviously do not want to read what has been posted 700 times on this thread already, I will say it yet again.

THEY ARE GIVEN A CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR DECLINE.

Come on, no one is even attempting to listen to me, it's as if you guys have this preconceived notion of what a proxy baptism is... which I wouldn't doubt from you, stephistan, considering your record of being staunchly anti-mormon.

Aren't you the one that's always preaching tolerance? Oh yeah, i forgot, you guys get to set the standards of what should be tolerated and what should not.

This is complete bull.

Lock this thread, please.

with a retarded server it is hard to read 37 pages.

Besides I don't care what was said. I am just trying to save your soul. I merely gave you a choice to accept that chance. You still have a choice.

(**EDIT: ooops posted with my puppet because for some reason Gods Bowels is the default cookie NS accepts or something**)

Locky Locky!

to which I roll my eyes and thank you for the nice, but rediculous offer.

Sorry you don't have a choice..lol hehe :Pfor crap's sake, lock this thread!

Sumamba and Steph: Since you obviously do not want to read what has been posted 700 times on this thread already, I will say it yet again.

THEY ARE GIVEN A CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR DECLINE.

Come on, no one is even attempting to listen to me, it's as if you guys have this preconceived notion of what a proxy baptism is... which I wouldn't doubt from you, stephistan, considering your record of being staunchly anti-mormon.

Aren't you the one that's always preaching tolerance? Oh yeah, i forgot, you guys get to set the standards of what should be tolerated and what should not.

This is complete bull.

Lock this thread, please.

Of course every thread where people don't agree with Raysia should be locked.

Ok, so this proxy babtism of yours...Nobody can see it and we just have to take your word for it that it's this wondrous and divine thing. Oh wow A koala just crapped a rainbow in my brain.

Still it's secret stuff that nobody can see because it's holy, you see...but nobody can see it...We're using people identities to do this wondrous holy thing but nobody can see it... :roll:

to which I roll my eyes and thank you for the nice, but rediculous offer.

Sorry you don't have a choice..lol hehe :Pfor crap's sake, lock this thread!

Sumamba and Steph: Since you obviously do not want to read what has been posted 700 times on this thread already, I will say it yet again.

THEY ARE GIVEN A CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR DECLINE.

Come on, no one is even attempting to listen to me, it's as if you guys have this preconceived notion of what a proxy baptism is... which I wouldn't doubt from you, stephistan, considering your record of being staunchly anti-mormon.

Aren't you the one that's always preaching tolerance? Oh yeah, i forgot, you guys get to set the standards of what should be tolerated and what should not.

This is complete bull.

Lock this thread, please.

I am not "anti" Mormon. I'm an atheist. I think all religion is a joke. But that's just my own personal opinion.

You want me to lock this thread because why? It's talking about who you are and you don't like it? Did you ever think about that once when you started gay thread after gay thread insulting people for who they were Ray? No, I don't think you did. It doesn't feel very nice to have the shoe on the other foot does it? Perhaps you should practice your Christian ways and stop judging people. That would be a nice start. I find it quite unreal that you want me to lock this thread because you don't agree with it. I have seen no one flame any one, although your redneck comment was close. As for Sumamba Buwhan and my comments, I would hope your skin is thick enough to know we were joking.

*Applauds Steph*

Well said.

to which I roll my eyes and thank you for the nice, but rediculous offer.How is it any more silly than the offer proposed by the Mormons? THEY ARE GIVEN A CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR DECLINE. This ruse has been exposed on this very thread!


They Batised Buddah. That shoots down the 'our posthumous baptism is all about letting the soul DECIDE' line as Buddah is in a state of Nirvana and is thus devoid of any decesion-making capacities.

SEE? They DON'T CARE weather a spirit can or cannot decide! :twisted:

1) It doesn't matter. You shouldn't be doing it against peoples will

2) It doesn't matter. You shouldn't be doing it against peoples willYou know what people who never learned to speak or are dead want? :|
Doesn't the fact that atheists, Jews, Catholics, Agnostics, Muslims and others have stated categorically that this practice deeply offends them give you a hint that perhaps the practice is wrong?Some have said they don't mind. It's far from unanimous.
I also notice that you seem to change your story. You baptize everyone, but only with a close relative's consent. Yet people for whom no consent could be given are baptized, yet it's no big deal.I think he meant consent was required for victims of the Holocaust, not everyone.
I have made my choice, right or wrong, and the consequences of that choice are between me and my God.You don't want to be able to change your choice?
Baptizing the dead is at the very least sillyWhat do you think of the verses posted earlier?
THEY ARE GIVEN A CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR DECLINE. This ruse has been exposed on this very thread!...?

Umm... steph... did you even read WHY I wanted this thread locked? Why do you assume it's because I am losing? I could defend myself for hours... oh, wait, I have... and this thread is going no where. it is 750 posts of the same 2 arguments back and forth, and no one is getting to anyone. I'm just saying this should be locked because it is going no where, and if anything is going to excalate into a flame war.

No offense, but now I'm seriously starting to think you have something against me personally...

You mean: "If they were mormons they'd understand" ?More like, if they weren't close-minded anti-mormons, they'd understand.

Doesn't matter who they are or what they are...Not being part of some weird cult ritual is everyones right.really... exactly which part of the constitution protects your name from being used in a mormon ritual...?

First Amendment would certainly be related: Freedom of Religion is understood to be freedom FROM religion as well, although of course, Mormonism is NOT a state religion and therefore cannot be pushed on people by the government.

Bottom line: morally, you should not do something in someone's name without their consent. I would no more purchase a tree as a memorial in Israel for an avowed Neo-Nasti (;))) than I would expect to be baptized into a faith I have no interest in.

Both these arguements have been made a 100 times in this thread.
And been refuted.

But now it's time for me to go to work, so I have to leave.
Thanks for the debate...I guess we'll continue it another time.

You didn't refute them. You didn't even address them. God I hate the internet sometimes.I guess it's true what they say...
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... even if you win, you're still a retard. :D

And still you argue, Raysia....

Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.I'd be offended by your actions, but I wouldn't hate you or anything.

Do you realize how many churches out there have "save the mormons" programs? Do you realize how many times I personally have been attacked by the people those programs breed? I get more offended about that than anything else.

Do I hate them? No.

Do I want to take action against them? No more than anyone else in this world.
word, raysia, word. That brings up the topic of "The Double Standard"

Quite. You wish to be left to practice your religious beliefs, but do not see that others wish to be left to practice their own.

Raysia...listen carefully.

Im refering to the fact that you..and your church are ignoring the hurt and outrage that this is causing.
Why?

How is it a slap in the face?

Like this:

Hey Raysia.....since your a mormon..and therefore very incorrect about all manners spiritual....im taking the liberty to offer your ancestors the truth.....wether you like it it or not.

Get it?

This is essentially what that ritual is doing, or at least thats how many peeople see it.I'd be offended by your actions, but I wouldn't hate you or anything.

Do you realize how many churches out there have "save the mormons" programs? Do you realize how many times I personally have been attacked by the people those programs breed? I get more offended about that than anything else.

Do I hate them? No.

Do I want to take action against them? No more than anyone else in this world.
word, raysia, word. That brings up the topic of "The Double Standard"

Quite. You wish to be left to practice your religious beliefs, but do not see that others wish to be left to practice their own.

If the Mormons are right in this belief, that this practice has some power, then it might as well be accepted as a good thing.

If they're wrong, then it is ineffectual and nothing has been changed so why fight about it?