NationStates Jolt Archive

Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead

By MARK THIESSEN
Associated Press Writer





SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Researchers say that Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

"We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."

Church spokesman Dale Bills said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "do not know what may come of these discussions, but we welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.




"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database.

"The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.

Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.

The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.

The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents.

In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.

---
they are baptising dead people? isnt that a bit disrespectful, especially when the baptised people arent mormons?

no disrespect meant to any religious group

Are the Mormons the ones that bug me on weekends? Or is that the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Setting my loud (but actually friendly) dog on them brings hilarity to my life.

and the usefullness of that post is?

Ah, yes, yes, of course.

What I don't understand here is the spiritual mechanics of baptising the dead.

In Chrisitanity at least (note that I do not consider Mormons part of Christianity; the way they've butchered the Bible and added bits to it has assured them all places in hell) baptism is supposed to be a sort of acceptance of the faith, a leap into your new way of life.

How can such be done if you are dead?

And it's done to the willing. You can't baptise the unwilling; it serves absolutely no purpose.

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Cool post, damn Mormons. I once had one come up to me at uni on a sunny afternoon whilst I was enjoying an ice cold beer chatting quite happily to a rather buxom blonde. He then proceded to try and sell me his religion, in which alcohol and sex before marrige isn't allowed. He sure had bad timing.

I'm still an atheist and damn happy to be an un-enlightened heathen. But that aside, if somones happy to believe in something who am I to stop them? Just as long as they leave me alone.

But back on topic, baptising unconsenting dead is just wrong. I'd like to see someone defend that. There is a plus side though, what if the Mormons are right? Every dead person they baptised went from the pits of hell in which they were languishing to heaven. That's one hardcore loop hole.

That is pretty disrespectful, and arrogant.

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Are you serious?

Hitler?

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Are you serious?

Hitler?

Quite serious.

They also baptised Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Josef Stalin and Buddha

Baptising dead people!
That's plain symbolic and disrespectful because they are dead.

St Paul will rolling his grave to hear that kind of behaviour.

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Are you serious?

Hitler?

Quite serious.

They also baptised Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Josef Stalin and Buddha

Aside from the idiocy of baptising the dead, especially the central figure of the main religion of Asia, who the hell would want Adolf, Joe and Genghy in their religion anyway?

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Are you serious?

Hitler?

Quite serious.

They also baptised Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Josef Stalin and Buddha

Aside from the idiocy of baptising the dead, especially the central figure of the main religion of Asia, who the hell would want Adolf, Joe and Genghy in their religion anyway?

When you're desperate enough to baptise dead people to boost the numbers of your religion, I don't think baptising people with a chequred past is going to bother you too much.

How exactly do they baptise dead people? Do they dig up the graves?

Baptising the dead is bad enough.

Let's just hope they don't send them out as missionaries.

"Attack of the Zombie Mormons" could be coming to a cinema near you.

:lol:

Fuck mormons, fuck Jehova's witnesses, ah heck, fuck em all.

f--- mormons, f--- Jehova's witnesses, ah heck, f--- em all.

not before marriage :D

He he, good one.

Is this article serious?

Is this article serious?

Mmhmm.

the weird thing is that the article is damn serious

That's pretty sick then.

fucked up even

lets see what i can find about magic underwear

Who cares? It's not like it's real or anything. Call me Coricopat, call me Jellylorum, call me anything you like -- just don't baptise me late for dinner.

Here, I'll have a go: I hereby baptise everybody, living, dead or as yet unborn, in perpetual post-life servitude to Great Cthulhu. Ia!

>>Ker-floosh!<<

Well, that's that. Startlingly easy, really.

Who cares? It's not like it's real or anything. Call me Coricopat, call me Jellylorum, call me anything you like -- just don't baptise me late for dinner.

Here, I'll have a go: I hereby baptise everybody, living, dead or as yet unborn, in perpetual post-life servitude to Great Cthulhu. Ia!

>>Ker-floosh!<<

Well, that's that. Startlingly easy, really.
i just think baptise someone not of your religion is disrespectful

bump for opinions :D

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

why do mormons baptise dead people?If you got to the afterlife, and only then found out that you have to be baptized by the right authority to get into heaven, you'd get kinda mad, and wonder if there was anything to do to go back and fix it... but ya can't, cuz yer dead!

We have the power to baptize people in the name of people who have died. Since baptism can not be performed outside of a physical body, it has to be done by proxy. It's a lot of work, baptizing 20 billion people, but we're up for it.

In the afterlife, you have the choice to accept the baptism or blow it off as just another mormon missionary effort (Yup, there are missionaries in the afterlife! muahahaha!).

So basically, we put the offer of salvation on the table for those who want a second chance. Nothing is forced upon you, and nothing is decided for you.

*Reads article, runs screaming around room like a freshly decapitated chicken (or turkey...mmmmmm...turkey)*

That's incredibly strange and horrendously offensive. Especially if they didn't get relative's permission...and even then, it's atrocious. What if the family is split on matters of religion? If I were dead, and there were an afterlife, I'd be pissed if my family pulled a religion-switch on me posthumously. I may as well just go flush my toilet and baptize the world into the Religion of the Pink Pony (see the thread by the same name, or, better, visit the Temple of Jeff on Forum 7...I have no shame). In fact, I think I will...

"In the name of the Pony, Jeff Son of Pony, and some other thing, you are all baptized"
<FLLUUUSSSHHH>

There!

But seriously, this is atrocious.

why do mormons baptise dead people?If you got to the afterlife, and only then found out that you have to be baptized by the right authority to get into heaven, you'd get kinda mad, and wonder if there was anything to do to go back and fix it... but ya can't, cuz yer dead!

We have the power to baptize people in the name of people who have died. Since baptism can not be performed outside of a physical body, it has to be done by proxy. It's a lot of work, baptizing 20 billion people, but we're up for it.

In the afterlife, you have the choice to accept the baptism or blow it off as just another mormon missionary effort (Yup, there are missionaries in the afterlife! muahahaha!).

So basically, we put the offer of salvation on the table for those who want a second chance. Nothing is forced upon you, and nothing is decided for you.

:shock:
Are you serious???

Mormon missionaries in the afterlife?
:shock: :shock: :x :x :shock: :shock:
Can I get rid of them the same way I got rid of them at my house?
Are there lawyers in Hell who will give me a restraining order? What are their names?

Mormon missionaries in the afterlife?
:shock: :shock: :x :x :shock: :shock:
Can I get rid of them the same way I got rid of them at my house?
Are there lawyers in Hell who will give me a restraining order? What are their names?

i'd be mighty pissed off if there was missionaries in the afterlife

*Reads article, runs screaming around room like a freshly decapitated chicken (or turkey...mmmmmm...turkey)*

That's incredibly strange and horrendously offensive. Especially if they didn't get relative's permission...and even then, it's atrocious. What if the family is split on matters of religion? If I were dead, and there were an afterlife, I'd be pissed if my family pulled a religion-switch on me posthumously. I may as well just go flush my toilet and baptize the world into the Religion of the Pink Pony (see the thread by the same name, or, better, visit the Temple of Jeff on Forum 7...I have no shame). In fact, I think I will...

"In the name of the Pony, Jeff Son of Pony, and some other thing, you are all baptized"
<FLLUUUSSSHHH>

There!

But seriously, this is atrocious.Like I said. They always get a relative's permission. They don't change your religion, they just put the offer on the table.

It's nothing more than an invitation to an exclusive club... "Hey, wanna come to heaven with us?" You still have the oppurtunity to decline or RSVP :P

Would you be as equally offended if I, as a missionary, knocked on your door?

*Reads article, runs screaming around room like a freshly decapitated chicken (or turkey...mmmmmm...turkey)*

That's incredibly strange and horrendously offensive. Especially if they didn't get relative's permission...and even then, it's atrocious. What if the family is split on matters of religion? If I were dead, and there were an afterlife, I'd be pissed if my family pulled a religion-switch on me posthumously. I may as well just go flush my toilet and baptize the world into the Religion of the Pink Pony (see the thread by the same name, or, better, visit the Temple of Jeff on Forum 7...I have no shame). In fact, I think I will...

"In the name of the Pony, Jeff Son of Pony, and some other thing, you are all baptized"
<FLLUUUSSSHHH>

There!

But seriously, this is atrocious.Like I said. They always get a relative's permission. They don't change your religion, they just put the offer on the table.

It's nothing more than an invitation to an exclusive club... "Hey, wanna come to heaven with us?" You still have the oppurtunity to decline or RSVP :P

Would you be as equally offended if I, as a missionary, knocked on your door?

i'm pissed at missionaries in this life and in a possible next one

<just barely related post>

Hehe...technically, I have more posts than Raysia right now...excellent.

<just barely related post>

Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead

By MARK THIESSEN
Associated Press Writer





SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Researchers say that Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

"We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."

Church spokesman Dale Bills said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "do not know what may come of these discussions, but we welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.




"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database.

"The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.

Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.

The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.

The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents.

In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.

---
they are baptising dead people? isnt that a bit disrespectful, especially when the baptised people arent mormons?
This is appauling! How can you disrespect a person's religous rights like this?! Speaking on behalf of Catholics, such a practice could result in Catholics in Pergatory being sent to hell for soemthing they didn't do.

This is appauling! How can you disrespect a person's religous rights like this?! Speaking on behalf of Catholics, such a practice could result in Catholics in Pergatory being sent to hell for soemthing they didn't do.Scroll up
Like I said. They always get a relative's permission. They don't change your religion, they just put the offer on the table.

It's nothing more than an invitation to an exclusive club... "Hey, wanna come to heaven with us?" You still have the oppurtunity to decline or RSVP

Would you be as equally offended if I, as a missionary, knocked on your door?

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Maybe they're fighting in the Mormon room in the Underworld?

*Reads article, runs screaming around room like a freshly decapitated chicken (or turkey...mmmmmm...turkey)*

That's incredibly strange and horrendously offensive. Especially if they didn't get relative's permission...and even then, it's atrocious. What if the family is split on matters of religion? If I were dead, and there were an afterlife, I'd be pissed if my family pulled a religion-switch on me posthumously. I may as well just go flush my toilet and baptize the world into the Religion of the Pink Pony (see the thread by the same name, or, better, visit the Temple of Jeff on Forum 7...I have no shame). In fact, I think I will...

"In the name of the Pony, Jeff Son of Pony, and some other thing, you are all baptized"
<FLLUUUSSSHHH>

There!

But seriously, this is atrocious.Like I said. They always get a relative's permission. They don't change your religion, they just put the offer on the table.

It's nothing more than an invitation to an exclusive club... "Hey, wanna come to heaven with us?" You still have the oppurtunity to decline or RSVP :P

Would you be as equally offended if I, as a missionary, knocked on your door?

This is not the same, you are doing things with peoples names, DEAD peoples names.

Who want's to be on some Mormon list? Well, not many people.

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?

Mormuns are very crazy conservatives

*Reads article, runs screaming around room like a freshly decapitated chicken (or turkey...mmmmmm...turkey)*

That's incredibly strange and horrendously offensive. Especially if they didn't get relative's permission...and even then, it's atrocious. What if the family is split on matters of religion? If I were dead, and there were an afterlife, I'd be pissed if my family pulled a religion-switch on me posthumously. I may as well just go flush my toilet and baptize the world into the Religion of the Pink Pony (see the thread by the same name, or, better, visit the Temple of Jeff on Forum 7...I have no shame). In fact, I think I will...

"In the name of the Pony, Jeff Son of Pony, and some other thing, you are all baptized"
<FLLUUUSSSHHH>

There!

But seriously, this is atrocious.Like I said. They always get a relative's permission. They don't change your religion, they just put the offer on the table.

It's nothing more than an invitation to an exclusive club... "Hey, wanna come to heaven with us?" You still have the oppurtunity to decline or RSVP :P

Would you be as equally offended if I, as a missionary, knocked on your door?

I generally try to offend them so that they never come back. On the other hand I've never seen a Mormon at my house before, only Jehovah's Wittnesses, and once the Pentecostal church had a "member drive", but those were only temporary missionaries.

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?The LDS church runs an extensive Geneaology database. It's a great world-wide resource, with full biographies on millions if not billions of people who have lived or are living.

It's not all just for baptisms for the dead, it's for family history research.

It is an amazing spiritual experience to learn how you are related to everyone, or who your famous ancestors were, or the hardships your grweat great great great grandfathers went through.

It's not just names, it's journals, pictures, biographies, birth records, etc.

They have a database almost rivalling the CIA, but it's public.

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?

they buy identities?

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?

they buy identities?records.

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?The LDS church runs an extensive Geneaology database. It's a great world-wide resource, with full biographies on millions if not billions of people who have lived or are living.

It's not all just for baptisms for the dead, it's for family history research.

It is an amazing spiritual experience to learn how you are related to everyone, or who your famous ancestors were, or the hardships your grweat great great great grandfathers went through.

It's not just names, it's journals, pictures, biographies, birth records, etc.

They have a database almost rivalling the CIA, but it's public.

Well, all of Iceland is part of the "Decode" project, which is very interesting, does the same thing but without that religion stuff... I feel comforted by the fact that they will never let you guys in on that one.


But back on topic: These ceremonies for the dead.
Let's say someone belonged to a religion which tells them they go to hell if they partake in "heathen" ceremonies (such as your babtisms). Would your guys still babtise his "name" ?

Tumaniaa- We baptize everyone, unless a close relative forbids it.

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?The LDS church runs an extensive Geneaology database. It's a great world-wide resource, with full biographies on millions if not billions of people who have lived or are living.

It's not all just for baptisms for the dead, it's for family history research.

It is an amazing spiritual experience to learn how you are related to everyone, or who your famous ancestors were, or the hardships your grweat great great great grandfathers went through.

It's not just names, it's journals, pictures, biographies, birth records, etc.

They have a database almost rivalling the CIA, but it's public.

How do you access it?

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

No offense, but how do you convert somebody posthumously without their knowledge or approval? I mean, that would normally assume that at the time of death they didn't meet God's criteria and so would have been denied access to heaven.

Does God call them up from the hell he sent them too for not having accepted your teachings at the time of their deaths and say: "Hey! Your buddy Fred decided that you DO believe in something completely diferent to what you actually did... so welcome aboard!"

that just seems.... silly

-Z-

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?The LDS church runs an extensive Geneaology database. It's a great world-wide resource, with full biographies on millions if not billions of people who have lived or are living.

It's not all just for baptisms for the dead, it's for family history research.

It is an amazing spiritual experience to learn how you are related to everyone, or who your famous ancestors were, or the hardships your grweat great great great grandfathers went through.

It's not just names, it's journals, pictures, biographies, birth records, etc.

They have a database almost rivalling the CIA, but it's public.

How do you access it?Go to an LDS stake center, or access it at http://www.familysearch.org/

Geneaology.com and the others often get their information from this site.

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?

they buy identities?records.

Actually:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon135.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon131.html

Tumaniaa- We baptize everyone, unless a close relative forbids it.

So basically you're forcing people to risk their "salvation", for instance if they are catholics...etc.
(if such a thing existed)

And what's the deal with buying identities in bulk from Russia?The LDS church runs an extensive Geneaology database. It's a great world-wide resource, with full biographies on millions if not billions of people who have lived or are living.

It's not all just for baptisms for the dead, it's for family history research.

It is an amazing spiritual experience to learn how you are related to everyone, or who your famous ancestors were, or the hardships your grweat great great great grandfathers went through.

It's not just names, it's journals, pictures, biographies, birth records, etc.

They have a database almost rivalling the CIA, but it's public.Which is why when my cousin became Mormon we had our family history sealed. Apparently it took my Great Aunt years to cover all the information. You see we have been Catholics dating back to the the first Catholic Missionaries and there was no way we were risking their salvation on my couisins latest attempt to irritate her mother.

How exactly do they baptise dead people? Do they dig up the graves?

Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.

Tumaniaa- We baptize everyone, unless a close relative forbids it.

So basically you're forcing people to risk their "salvation", for instance if they are catholics...etc.
(if such a thing existed)what?Which is why when my cousin became Mormon we had our family history sealed. Apparently it took my Great Aunt years to cover all the information. You see we have been Catholics dating back to the the first Catholic Missionaries and there was no way we were risking their salvation on my couisins latest attempt to irritate her mother.I don't understand why.Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.Like I said, they still require close-relative consent.

And as for whether or not it seems offensive, well, tough. i get equally offended by people from protestant religions saying they're praying for me to convert away from mormonism... but do I take legal action? of course not.

How exactly do they baptise dead people? Do they dig up the graves?

Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.

How much information would they need to babtise someone? Just a name?

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

And who are you to deny people the right to NOT be baptized?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

Some people see it as a desecration. I see it as the equivalent of pissing on Jews' graves. Some of the Jews you baptized would NEVER have accepted baptism while alive. Some of them DIED specifically because they were Jews. Baptizing them now, when they cannot stop you, strikes me as profoundly disrespectful.

Tumaniaa- We baptize everyone, unless a close relative forbids it.

So basically you're forcing people to risk their "salvation", for instance if they are catholics...etc.
(if such a thing existed)what?Which is why when my cousin became Mormon we had our family history sealed. Apparently it took my Great Aunt years to cover all the information. You see we have been Catholics dating back to the the first Catholic Missionaries and there was no way we were risking their salvation on my couisins latest attempt to irritate her mother.I don't understand why.Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.Like I said, they still require close-relative consent.

And as for whether or not it seems offensive, well, tough. i get equally offended by people from protestant religions saying they're praying for me to convert away from mormonism... but do I take legal action? of course not.

thats not the same as converting someone when they're DEAD

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

No offense, but how do you convert somebody posthumously without their knowledge or approval? I mean, that would normally assume that at the time of death they didn't meet God's criteria and so would have been denied access to heaven.

Does God call them up from the hell he sent them too for not having accepted your teachings at the time of their deaths and say: "Hey! Your buddy Fred decided that you DO believe in something completely diferent to what you actually did... so welcome aboard!"

that just seems.... silly

-Z-That does seem silly. Unfortunately, you are way off-base.

It is not a conversion, it is an invitation.

How exactly do they baptise dead people? Do they dig up the graves?

Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.

How much information would they need to babtise someone? Just a name?

That's my impression.

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

No offense, but how do you convert somebody posthumously without their knowledge or approval? I mean, that would normally assume that at the time of death they didn't meet God's criteria and so would have been denied access to heaven.

Does God call them up from the hell he sent them too for not having accepted your teachings at the time of their deaths and say: "Hey! Your buddy Fred decided that you DO believe in something completely diferent to what you actually did... so welcome aboard!"

that just seems.... silly

-Z-That does seem silly. Unfortunately, you are way off-base.

It is not a conversion, it is an invitation.

No, that's YOUR perspective of what it is. YOU see it as an invitation. Others don't. And your reaction to people explicitly telling you this has basically been, "well, fuck you, Jews, Catholics, etc. We're doing it anyway."

... Thanks.

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

And who are you to deny people the right to NOT be baptized?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

Some people see it as a desecration. I see it as the equivalent of pissing on Jews' graves. Some of the Jews you baptized would NEVER have accepted baptism while alive. Some of them DIED specifically because they were Jews. Baptizing them now, when they cannot stop you, strikes me as profoundly disrespectful.Oh come on man, how is this even remotely analogous to pissing on graves?

And those people who wouldn't have accepted it here probably wouldn't accept it in the afterlife, and they have the exact same oppurtunity to say 'f--- off'

Tumaniaa- We baptize everyone, unless a close relative forbids it.

So basically you're forcing people to risk their "salvation", for instance if they are catholics...etc.
(if such a thing existed)what?Which is why when my cousin became Mormon we had our family history sealed. Apparently it took my Great Aunt years to cover all the information. You see we have been Catholics dating back to the the first Catholic Missionaries and there was no way we were risking their salvation on my couisins latest attempt to irritate her mother.I don't understand why.Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.Like I said, they still require close-relative consent.

And as for whether or not it seems offensive, well, tough. i get equally offended by people from protestant religions saying they're praying for me to convert away from mormonism... but do I take legal action? of course not.

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?

The Mormon religion was conceived in insanity..and continues on nicely with that intent.

Mormons do not baptize the dead without the consent of a relative.

I really don't see what the contraversy is... it's just a couple people going through a ritual in someone else's name. Who are you to deny your relatives salvation, if the mormons are right?

Anyway, what is so contraversial? Is it just the fact that we're doing it behind closed doors?

No offense, but how do you convert somebody posthumously without their knowledge or approval? I mean, that would normally assume that at the time of death they didn't meet God's criteria and so would have been denied access to heaven.

Does God call them up from the hell he sent them too for not having accepted your teachings at the time of their deaths and say: "Hey! Your buddy Fred decided that you DO believe in something completely diferent to what you actually did... so welcome aboard!"

that just seems.... silly

-Z-That does seem silly. Unfortunately, you are way off-base.

It is not a conversion, it is an invitation.

So, God calls them up from Hell and says:"Fred says you can have a choice to agree with him or head back to Hades?"

I mean - either this person led a life worthy of heaven, or they didn't. In which case God's infallible decision would already have been made and would have been correct.

So what good would the invite be one way or the other?

-Z-

Which is why when my cousin became Mormon we had our family history sealed. Apparently it took my Great Aunt years to cover all the information. You see we have been Catholics dating back to the the first Catholic Missionaries and there was no way we were risking their salvation on my couisins latest attempt to irritate her mother.I don't understand why.Because when your soul is in Pergatory you are atoning for your Venial Sins and the baptisim by the Mormons would be an act of herecay dooming their soul to hell. And we love our family just enough not to send them to hell.

Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.Like I said, they still require close-relative consent.

Close-relative consent? Who gave consent for Genghis Kahn? Buddha? Holocaust victims where the entire immediate family was murdered? Yeah, I'll bet. :roll:

And as for whether or not it seems offensive, well, tough.

As I said.

i get equally offended by people from protestant religions saying they're praying for me to convert away from mormonism... but do I take legal action? of course not.

More power to you. You're entitled to believe what you want. And I'm entitled to think that this action is disgusting, and the people that perform it are douchebags.

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

as i have said, its not the same, mormons are messing with DEAD people

Which is why when my cousin became Mormon we had our family history sealed. Apparently it took my Great Aunt years to cover all the information. You see we have been Catholics dating back to the the first Catholic Missionaries and there was no way we were risking their salvation on my couisins latest attempt to irritate her mother.I don't understand why.Because when your soul is in Pergatory you are atoning for your Venial Sins and the baptisim by the Mormons would be an act of herecay dooming their soul to hell. And we love our family just enough not to send them to hell.now you're mixing religious beliefs. If you're right, and there's a purgatory, then you can just pass us off as crazy.

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

Yes, but what's significant is that you guys DON'T CARE that other people object to it. You can call it whatever you want, but it still comes down to the fact that people have asked you to stop, and you refuse. THAT, to me, is perhaps even more insulting than the action itself.

Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.Like I said, they still require close-relative consent.

Close-relative consent? Who gave consent for Genghis Kahn? Buddha? Holocaust victims where the entire immediate family was murdered? Yeah, I'll bet. :roll: That only applies to the jews we signed the agreement with. Sheesh, read the article.

I wonder how the Mormons would feel if we Baptised them into a protestant religion after their death...theyd HOWL about it.....as would any rational person's family.

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.Just like Sex is just a handshake with an exchange of fluids. After a person is dead, or during their life, you have no right to interfere with their right of religou freedom.

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

Yes, but what's significant is that you guys DON'T CARE that other people object to it. You can call it whatever you want, but it still comes down to the fact that people have asked you to stop, and you refuse. THAT, to me, is perhaps even more insulting than the action itself.If a closer relative objects, we remove the name. it's that simple. What's the problem?

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

No, this is NOT like a prayer: This would be like doing a pagan ritual in a dead persons name. How would YOU like that? Someone making magic circles in your name when you're dead? Or hoodoo?

Look at what that guy above just said: He believes it would be heresy and he would go to hell (Remember that christianity is the biggest religion on earth).
And yet you would do this?

I wonder how the Mormons would feel if we Baptised them into a protestant religion after their death...theyd HOWL about it.....as would any rational person's family.No, we wouldn't.Just like Sex is just a handshake with an exchange of fluids. After a person is dead, or during their life, you have no right to interfere with their right of religou freedom.Where do we interefere with their rights?

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

No, this is NOT like a prayer: This would be like doing a pagan ritual in a dead persons name. How would YOU like that? Someone making magic circles in your name when you're dead? Or hoodoo?

Look at what that guy above just said: He believes it would be heresy and he would go to hell (Remember that christianity is the biggest religion on earth).
And yet you would do this?what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist?

I'm sure someone has already said this, but I'm going to post anyway.

I think the Mormons (and every faith really) should mind their own damn business. The Mormons can baptise and build temples and look into mirrors all they want, but they shouldn't be allowed to symbollically dig up people who were probably happy with their faith and baptise them.

The line in the article that goes something like "Mormons believe in the ability to choose religion perists after death" made me chuckle. When these people were alive and they didn't choose Mormonism, what the bloody hell makes you think their going to choose it now? If they went to hell (which everyone seems to unless your a Mormon) I'm sure they're too busy being sleeping till doomsday* to care about you baptizing them.

*Hell is not described as some sort of Eternal torture pit. Everyone goes there and waits until Judgement Day. THEN all the sinners get thrown into the pool of fire and all the good people hang out with Jesus for another 1000 years. At least thats what I've heard.

If a closer relative objects, we remove the name. it's that simple. What's the problem? the problem is that the dea person has no say in the matter and probably would object were they present. Don't mormons think it is wrong to use expletives because it is taking god's name in vain? So using someone's name in a ritual they would likely object to is somehow better?

I wonder how the Mormons would feel if we Baptised them into a protestant religion after their death...theyd HOWL about it.....as would any rational person's family.No, we wouldn't.Just like Sex is just a handshake with an exchange of fluids. After a person is dead, or during their life, you have no right to interfere with their right of religou freedom.Where do we interefere with their rights?They have the right not to have their religion tampered with after they are dead.

I wonder how the Mormons would feel if we Baptised them into a protestant religion after their death...theyd HOWL about it.....as would any rational person's family.No, we wouldn't.Just like Sex is just a handshake with an exchange of fluids. After a person is dead, or during their life, you have no right to interfere with their right of religou freedom.Where do we interefere with their rights?

Oh yes you would!
Especially if you believed that it might prevent you from getting to your promised paradise, or mothership....or planet of your very own..or whatever it is you mormons go after.

Your only saying that to defend a very bad idea.

Skeel- If that is true, then what does it matter to you? If you believe that, then why not just pass us off as crazies and go about your merry way?

what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist? Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they haven't heard prayers and/or said prayers in the past. It is not wise to write a person off so quickly.

getting a bit angry eh?

Oh yes you would!
On what grounds do you say we would do that? Do you know how much crap like that we already get and don't care?

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

This is like Voodoo, you're doing something most people would be uncomfortable with.

Well, to explain my comment: Some religiouns (Christianity for example) FORBID people to partake in rituals of other religions, and you are FORCING them upon dead people.

No offense, but wtf is wrong with you people?You are seriously misunderstanding this. We are not forcing anything on anyone. It's nothing more than a prayer with physical ties.

ike I said, I get equally offended when Protestants pray for me by name in hopes that I will convert from Mormonism... but I don't file legal action, I just drop them into the 'crazy peoples' file, as you are welcome to do with the mormons.

It's not like we're converting them, just making it POSSIBLE to convert.

No, this is NOT like a prayer: This would be like doing a pagan ritual in a dead persons name. How would YOU like that? Someone making magic circles in your name when you're dead? Or hoodoo?

Look at what that guy above just said: He believes it would be heresy and he would go to hell (Remember that christianity is the biggest religion on earth).
And yet you would do this?what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist?

No actually I'm born into the old custom, but I'm not a "practicioner" in the strict sense of the word (though I am registered).

But you didn't answer any of my questions...

getting a bit angry eh?nah, I'm fine.

I think I might leave though, people are getting kinda a mob attitude, and aren't listening to a bloody thing I'm saying.

what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist? Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they haven't heard prayers and/or said prayers in the past. It is not wise to write a person off so quickly.The guy's a troll. I can write him off for nothing if I please ;)

because im a lazy ass i didnt read most of the thread, but heres my two cents. if i was dead and some crazy mormons babtized me without my permission id come back as an evil spirit that haunts mormons! :evil:

Proxy baptisms. A mormon gets "assigned" one of the dead's names for the ceremony.

I'm Jewish and had a bunch of relatives die in the Holocaust. I started a similar thread on this several months ago. As I recall, it didn't go anywhere. I also exchanged some PMs with Raysia that ended with him telling me I had a prejudiced attitude about the whole thing, and implying that after I was dead, he was going to baptize me, "whether you like it or not".

... I don't have much hope for this thread. Or Mormon-Jewish relations.Like I said, they still require close-relative consent.

Close-relative consent? Who gave consent for Genghis Kahn? Buddha? Holocaust victims where the entire immediate family was murdered? Yeah, I'll bet. :roll: That only applies to the jews we signed the agreement with. Sheesh, read the article.

Oh, you mean the agreement that it's been proven you DIDN'T keep? THAT one?

what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist? Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they haven't heard prayers and/or said prayers in the past. It is not wise to write a person off so quickly.The guy's a troll. I can write him off for nothing if I please ;)

I'm a troll now?
I asked you a couple of questions (after all this thread is about your religion, isn't it?) and when you have no more logic, you start this crap...Come on now.

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

The same way we're feeling about this maybe?

Oh yes you would!
On what grounds do you say we would do that? Do you know how much crap like that we already get and don't care?

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

It's hard to have much sympathy for you when you guys are essentially doing a similar practice, only you wait until people can no longer refuse (although, I know, according to you guys, they "can").

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

The same way we're feeling about this maybe? pwned! seriously ray, you walked right into that

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

The same way we're feeling about this maybe?Precisely my point.

What do I do about it? I ignore it.

As you should.

How much are you willing to bet Raysia is going to start a new thread real soon with a name like "Liberals eat children" and not reply to this one anymore? :lol:

Skeel- If that is true, then what does it matter to you? If you believe that, then why not just pass us off as crazies and go about your merry way?

Because I don't like the thought of a bunch of "Crazies" playing around with my name. That name is mine, not yours, not the goverments, not Allah/God/Jehovah or any other omnipotent toddler-being you can think of. You can dig up your own ancestors names and do all the funny crap with them that you want, but keep your hands off of people who didn't want to touch your religion with a 10-foot pole.

You couldn't get them when they were alive, so now you conviently go after their souls when they're dead. Not a bad plan now that I think about it.

what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist? Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they haven't heard prayers and/or said prayers in the past. It is not wise to write a person off so quickly.The guy's a troll. I can write him off for nothing if I please ;)

I'm a troll now?
I asked you a couple of questions (after all this thread is about your religion, isn't it?) and when you have no more logic, you start this crap...Come on now.You keep referring to mormonism as a cult, you keep throwing out anti-mormon propoganda, you keep following me around and criticizing my speech, heck, you were the one that got me so mad I got deleted :P

I'm outta here

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

The same way we're feeling about this maybe?Precisely my point.

What do I do about it? I ignore it.

As you should.

Simply because one person "turns the other cheek" by no means implies that everyone else should adopt the same standard. You piss me off, I'll tell you about it. You lie to me, you disrespect my family and my faith, and you're damn well going to hear about it.

If YOU feel like ignoring people that you feel are attacking or defaming your religion or co-religionists, have fun. But I see absolutely no reason why I should engage in the same meek behavior.

Oh yes you would!
On what grounds do you say we would do that? Do you know how much crap like that we already get and don't care?

How do you think I feel about the fact that there is a program at a church down the street that trains its members to hate mormons and try to convert me away from my religion to save my soul?

Mormons are among the first people, to scream religious persecution whenever they feel they are being bashed upon, or suspect that they arent being treated fairly....as you have shown many times here on this very forum.
Now with that in mind, why is that you dont show others the same respect, even posthumously?
If anyone should be leery of infringing upon others beliefs...It would be the Mormons.....

But no....

This kind of thing continues...

what would you know about prayer, aren't you an atheist? Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they haven't heard prayers and/or said prayers in the past. It is not wise to write a person off so quickly.The guy's a troll. I can write him off for nothing if I please ;)

I'm a troll now?
I asked you a couple of questions (after all this thread is about your religion, isn't it?) and when you have no more logic, you start this crap...Come on now.You keep referring to mormonism as a cult, you keep throwing out anti-mormon propoganda, you keep following me around and criticizing my speech, heck, you were the one that got me so mad I got deleted :P

I'm outta here

Mormonism IS a cult. All I've done is ASK a couple of questions and provide sources.
I don't follow you around. And don't try to blame your deletion on me...It was YOUR remarks about "burning faggots at the stake" which got you deleted.
Why can't you just stay on topic and debate?

And don't try to blame your deletion on me...It was YOUR remarks about "burning faggots at the stake" which got you deleted.
When did this happen? Do you have a link, or a thread title?

And don't try to blame your deletion on me...It was YOUR remarks about "burning faggots at the stake" which got you deleted.
When did this happen? Do you have a link, or a thread title?

It was some thread about bodies being dragged through Falluja. I'll see if I can find it.

*waits*

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138075

The first one is where he got warned.
The second one is where he got deleted.

When I die they can baptise me all they want because they'll be baptising a rotting corpse.

When I die they can baptise me all they want because they'll be baptising a rotting corpse.

And it's fine if that's fine WITH YOU- but it's not with a lot of other folks. And that's MY problem with this whole situation; is that they're basically giving the rest of us the finger.

How much are you willing to bet Raysia is going to start a new thread real soon with a name like "Liberals eat children" and not reply to this one anymore? :lol:

I would have won that bet...

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138075

The first one is where he got warned.
The second one is where he got deleted.

That's disgusting, though not unexpected.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138075

The first one is where he got warned.
The second one is where he got deleted.

:shock: :shock:
Raysia, that was positively shameful. We all have lost our tempers before, but Stephistan even gave you fair warning. I'm surprised.

They did it to both Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank. How's that for sick humour?

Are you serious?

Hitler?

Quite serious.

They also baptised Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Josef Stalin and BuddhaI'm not getting into this debate, because I have my beliefs and I don't care what Mormon's believe since it confuses me. Yes, that was a run-on sentence. But please excuse me of my ignorance, but wasn't Mormonism founded a bit after the likes of Khan, Joan of Arc, and Buddha?

And I burn faggots all the time, they make good kindling.

Late 1800's I believe.

Do you burn them because they are immoral? :wink:

Just to explain to everyone:

In the LDS Church, baptism is not viewed as merely an affirmation of faith. Rather, it is an ordinance required for membership in the Church. However, quite obviously, one can only be baptised when one is living (ever tried to baptise a ghost? It's tough, lemme tell ya.)
This, however, presents a problem. Mormons believe that entrance in to the highest level of heaven requires membership in the Church. But for those who never knew about the church, that is to say, the huge majority of people that have and do live on earth, there was never the opportunity to become a member.
Therefore, during the time between death and Judgement, all souls are taught about the Church if they never had been, and are given the opportunity to join.
But there's our problem. You have to be baptised to be a member, but have to be alive to be baptised. Thus, baptisms are done in proxy on earth. That way, those who choose to accept the Church in the afterlife have had the necessary ordinances done for them.
So why do we baptise people like Stalin and Genghis Khan? Because EVERYBODY deserves a chance at eternal happiness. It's not up to us to judge, it's up to God, and if God in His wisdom decides Genghis Khan would have been a good guy had he been brought up the right way, rather than as a bloodthirsty Mongolian war chieftan, then that's His choice.
Baptising the dead doesn't force religion on anybody. If you don't believe in it, then it's just a silly ritual that doesn't actually accomplish anything. Then no harm done. But if you do believe in it, then you believe that it is necessary for that to happen in order for someone to experience eternal glory - and that's something the Church wants for everyone.
If a Protestant wants to baptise me in proxy, he can go right ahead. Indeed, I'm quite flattered that he cares enough to do what he believes will help me get into heaven.

He deserved it.

It will likely happen again too.....he will keep his trolling ways....and zap!

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138075

The first one is where he got warned.
The second one is where he got deleted.

:shock: :shock:
Raysia, that was positively shameful. We all have lost our tempers before, but Stephistan even gave you fair warning. I'm surprised.

As you can see it wasn't my fault.

Just to explain to everyone:

In the LDS Church, baptism is not viewed as merely an affirmation of faith. Rather, it is an ordinance required for membership in the Church. However, quite obviously, one can only be baptised when one is living (ever tried to baptise a ghost? It's tough, lemme tell ya.)
This, however, presents a problem. Mormons believe that entrance in to the highest level of heaven requires membership in the Church. But for those who never knew about the church, that is to say, the huge majority of people that have and do live on earth, there was never the opportunity to become a member.
Therefore, during the time between death and Judgement, all souls are taught about the Church if they never had been, and are given the opportunity to join.
But there's our problem. You have to be baptised to be a member, but have to be alive to be baptised. Thus, baptisms are done in proxy on earth. That way, those who choose to accept the Church in the afterlife have had the necessary ordinances done for them.
So why do we baptise people like Stalin and Genghis Khan? Because EVERYBODY deserves a chance at eternal happiness. It's not up to us to judge, it's up to God, and if God in His wisdom decides Genghis Khan would have been a good guy had he been brought up the right way, rather than as a bloodthirsty Mongolian war chieftan, then that's His choice.
Baptising the dead doesn't force religion on anybody. If you don't believe in it, then it's just a silly ritual that doesn't actually accomplish anything. Then no harm done. But if you do believe in it, then you believe that it is necessary for that to happen in order for someone to experience eternal glory - and that's something the Church wants for everyone.
If a Protestant wants to baptise me in proxy, he can go right ahead. Indeed, I'm quite flattered that he cares enough to do what he believes will help me get into heaven.

Hello, Evara (Or should I say Raysia?)

It forces a ritual upon a name that doesn't belong to the mormons.
Again: How would you feel if someone did a hoodoo ritual in your name when you're dead? Have they got any right to?

The problem Evara, is that you are doing it, without living permission from that person...and frankly...your doing it against the wishes of the persons family.

Think about it.....why on earth would a Jew, want to baptised into a religion that reveres Christ?

You think that in order to get into "the highest levels of Heaven" a person has to adhere to YOUR faith....

You dont find that a little arrogant?

So why do we baptise people like Stalin and Genghis Khan? Because EVERYBODY deserves a chance at eternal happiness. It's not up to us to judge, it's up to God, and if God in His wisdom decides Genghis Khan would have been a good guy had he been brought up the right way, rather than as a bloodthirsty Mongolian war chieftan, then that's His choice.
Baptising the dead doesn't force religion on anybody. If you don't believe in it, then it's just a silly ritual that doesn't actually accomplish anything. Then no harm done. But if you do believe in it, then you believe that it is necessary for that to happen in order for someone to experience eternal glory - and that's something the Church wants for everyone.
If a Protestant wants to baptise me in proxy, he can go right ahead. Indeed, I'm quite flattered that he cares enough to do what he believes will help me get into heaven.

Evara, thank you for explaining your position. But let me explain OURS.

We don't see this as an OFFERING. We DO see this as something being forced. Whether or not it is an actual conversion or not, in YOUR eyes, the ceremony itself IS being conducted without the dead person's consent. This is all the more offensive when the dead people in question are important or well-known figures in a particular religion, such as famous rabbis, saints, or, say, Buddha.

Now, YOU may think that people should be "flattered" by this. You may even think that saying, "others can baptize me if they want" somehow makes it ok.

But it doesn't. Not to me. And that's what you don't seem to understand. It's irrelevant to me if YOU think it's offensive or wrong or forcing religion on the dead; that's how I see it. Now, I don't necessarily expect you to share MY belief. But the fact that you guys have so little respect for it that you're basically telling me, "Screw you, we'll do what we want"- that IS offensive, and hurtful. I can't stop you, but I'm certainly not going to act like it's "fine" with me.

When I die they can baptise me all they want because they'll be baptising a rotting corpse.

And it's fine if that's fine WITH YOU- but it's not with a lot of other folks. And that's MY problem with this whole situation; is that they're basically giving the rest of us the finger.

What are you afraid of? If you believe in Christ and die and you go to heaven what harm can they do to you? Hell any heaven for that matter whether its Allah or Yahweh or whomever it is. Once you are dead and ascended into heaven don't you think that you'd be protected against such? If not ye should recheck your faith.

When I die they can baptise me all they want because they'll be baptising a rotting corpse.

And it's fine if that's fine WITH YOU- but it's not with a lot of other folks. And that's MY problem with this whole situation; is that they're basically giving the rest of us the finger.

What are you afraid of? If you believe in Christ and die and you go to heaven what harm can they do to you?

Well, I'm not a Christian, but it's a matter of principle: I don't want a bunch of cultists doing weird things with MY name when I'm dead. Simple. I believe this is my right.

When I die they can baptise me all they want because they'll be baptising a rotting corpse.

And it's fine if that's fine WITH YOU- but it's not with a lot of other folks. And that's MY problem with this whole situation; is that they're basically giving the rest of us the finger.

What are you afraid of? If you believe in Christ and die and you go to heaven what harm can they do to you? Hell any heaven for that matter whether its Allah or Yahweh or whomever it is. Once you are dead and ascended into heaven don't you think that you'd be protected against such? If not ye should recheck your faith.

Thats the problem...theyre doing it to Jews too...
Ask the next Jew you meet if he wants to be baptised into a christian religion and watch his reaction.

A thought about this topic...
Why do Mormons even bother with getting Baptised while they are alive?
Surely someone in your family will give consent for you to get it done for you after you are dead. That way you wont be wasting your time on getting Baptised and have more time to knock on doors and try to tell other people they are going to hell for not being a Mormon.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

When I die they can baptise me all they want because they'll be baptising a rotting corpse.

And it's fine if that's fine WITH YOU- but it's not with a lot of other folks. And that's MY problem with this whole situation; is that they're basically giving the rest of us the finger.

What are you afraid of? If you believe in Christ and die and you go to heaven what harm can they do to you? Hell any heaven for that matter whether its Allah or Yahweh or whomever it is. Once you are dead and ascended into heaven don't you think that you'd be protected against such? If not ye should recheck your faith.

Who said I was AFRAID? My issue is that I see it as being offensive to the dead individual, their families, and their religion. Like I said, to me it's like pissing on a grave. It's a desecration.

And if it's all the same to you, I'll keep my opinion as it pertains to those theological issues you raised to myself.

YOUR DEAD WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM. They're not getting anywhere they're just being stupid cultists is right. Err must stop...this is why I don't get involved with religious debates. You can't win them. Politics you can but not religion. Agnosticism how I love thee.

*Sees that Mormons are baptising the dead, again*

They're coming to get you... Barbra... :twisted:

porn! agh!!!

:shock:

why isnt it gone? damnit to hell!

YOUR DEAD WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM. They're not getting anywhere they're just being stupid cultists is right. Err must stop...this is why I don't get involved with religious debates. You can't win them. Politics you can but not religion. Agnosticism how I love thee.

I'm agnostic, too. Doesn't mean I don't find this offensive.

My issue is that I see it as being offensive to the dead individual,really... you've talked to the guy? he told you he was offended?

@Punchdetail talk about a rebuttal...

why isnt it gone? damnit to hell!i modalerted it

why is everyone ignoring the porn? for gods sake people!

YOUR DEAD WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM. They're not getting anywhere they're just being stupid cultists is right. Err must stop...this is why I don't get involved with religious debates. You can't win them. Politics you can but not religion. Agnosticism how I love thee.

The problem is it's insulting that they presume that you would have wanted to join their religion if you'd been offered the choice. Odds are good that you wouldn't have converted in life, so they go ahead and convert you after you can't argue against it. It's insulting to the ego that they presume to know better than you which religion is right for you. It's a slap in the face, albeit posthumously.

YOUR DEAD WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM. They're not getting anywhere they're just being stupid cultists is right. Err must stop...this is why I don't get involved with religious debates. You can't win them. Politics you can but not religion. Agnosticism how I love thee.

The problem is it's insulting that they presume that you would have wanted to join their religion if you'd been offered the choice. Odds are good that you wouldn't have converted in life, so they go ahead and convert you after you can't argue against it. It's insulting to the ego that they presume to know better than you which religion is right for you. It's a slap in the face, albeit posthumously.Holy crap. There you go folks, is the definition of ignorance.

You guys aren't listening to a bloody word I've been saying.

It's not a conversion, by any means. All it is is a door opened. I'm sure they'd be MORE offended if the door was closed, and heaven was some sort of exclusive party.

That's it, I'm outta here.. really... I swear~!

*tried to leave thread* I wish I could de-tag this :P

YOUR DEAD WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM. They're not getting anywhere they're just being stupid cultists is right. Err must stop...this is why I don't get involved with religious debates. You can't win them. Politics you can but not religion. Agnosticism how I love thee.

The problem is it's insulting that they presume that you would have wanted to join their religion if you'd been offered the choice. Odds are good that you wouldn't have converted in life, so they go ahead and convert you after you can't argue against it. It's insulting to the ego that they presume to know better than you which religion is right for you. It's a slap in the face, albeit posthumously.Holy crap. There you go folks, is the definition of ignorance.

You guys aren't listening to a bloody word I've been saying.

It's not a conversion, by any means. All it is is a door opened. I'm sure they'd be MORE offended if the door was closed, and heaven was some sort of exclusive party.

That's it, I'm outta here.. really... I swear~!

*tried to leave thread* I wish I could de-tag this :P

You have alot of balls to call me ignorant, little man. A baptism is an induction into a religion. You think you're doing this for them, but it's really just an insult to the decisions those people made in life.

Its a door being opened for you when no one asked you to.
Its a slap in the face to the persons faith.

My issue is that I see it as being offensive to the dead individual,really... you've talked to the guy? he told you he was offended?

RIIIIGHT. That's CLEARLY what I said. :roll:

Look, what does it matter whether it *is* offensive? What matters is that people take offence.
If I call you sweety, and you take offense, I can jump up and down all I want, screaming how it's not actually offensive, but common decency demands that I stop anyway.

YOUR DEAD WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM. They're not getting anywhere they're just being stupid cultists is right. Err must stop...this is why I don't get involved with religious debates. You can't win them. Politics you can but not religion. Agnosticism how I love thee.

The problem is it's insulting that they presume that you would have wanted to join their religion if you'd been offered the choice. Odds are good that you wouldn't have converted in life, so they go ahead and convert you after you can't argue against it. It's insulting to the ego that they presume to know better than you which religion is right for you. It's a slap in the face, albeit posthumously.Holy crap. There you go folks, is the definition of ignorance.

You guys aren't listening to a bloody word I've been saying.

It's not a conversion, by any means. All it is is a door opened. I'm sure they'd be MORE offended if the door was closed, and heaven was some sort of exclusive party.

That's it, I'm outta here.. really... I swear~!

*tried to leave thread* I wish I could de-tag this :P

We're not talking about a conversition, but a weird ritual made in someones NAME! Something which YOU don't have ANY right to use for religious purposes...

*notices when Raysia gets angry (and runs out of logic) weird things happen, a mormon with a postcount of 1 appears and another puppet posts porn*

You guys aren't listening to a bloody word I've been saying.

It's not a conversion, by any means. All it is is a door opened.

I could say the same damn thing to you. Just because YOU see it one way doesn't mean the rest of us concur with YOUR POV of what you guys are doing.

Now who's not listening?

Oh God I had almost forgot that they do that. Sick mother fuckers who do that shit. I don't care if you're a Mormon, Catholic, or whatever, you don't baptise people into your religion after they die, because they can't protest, and it's just sick and wrong.

Oh God I had almost forgot that they do that. Sick mother fuckers who do that shit. I don't care if you're a Mormon, Catholic, or whatever, you don't baptise people into your religion after they die, because they can't protest, and it's just sick and wrong.

Kinda like necropheliac rape then?

Spiritual necrophiliac rape. Now that's some disgusting stuff.

Spiritual necrophiliac rape. Now that's some disgusting stuff.

"Spiritual necrophiliac rape" , thats a new one

Oh God I had almost forgot that they do that. Sick mother fuckers who do that shit. I don't care if you're a Mormon, Catholic, or whatever, you don't baptise people into your religion after they die, because they can't protest, and it's just sick and wrong.

Kinda like necropheliac rape then?

Yes infact

Raysia seems to have run away.

Raysia seems to have run away.

he was proven wrong and he couldnt handle it

Raysia seems to have run away.

he was proven wrong and he couldnt handle it

He ran away from the other thread where I was proving him wrong also.

and now hes started another thread

It's probably all for the best that he goes. He wasn't really helping much anyway. It's not going to be easy (if possible) to convince a man that what he believes is wrong. On strictly religious grounds, I find it hard to believe that G-d would in any way consider the posthumous baptism of an individual as participation in a pagan ritual. I'm sure the Catholic Church would support me on that (I happen to be Catholic-- and believe me, the souls in Purgatory are not being punished for Mormon foolishness). Nevertheless, the practice is horribly disrespectful. Note, however, that as was pointed out before, the Mormon Church is a fairly new faith, and in order for them to justify the "only Mormons go to heaven" philosophy they had to come up with some means of "saving" the souls of the uncountable numbers of people that died before Smith founded the religion. And as for the Protestants praying for your conversion-- I'd like to see anyone take legal action against another person praying for them. Praying is altogether different than inducting a member unwillingly, and baptism is a ceremony of induction. Of course our Mormon friends would know that if they were actually Christian, but alas they are not.

What's the new thread?

'happy easter'

Really I was starting to get a picture in my mind. I die and go up to heaven. I see the pearly gates ahead of me on my way. Out of the corner of my eye I see a rotted old wood door. On the door is a sign that says, "All Mormons enter here". I think about this wonderful choice I have been given. None of my family is stupid enough to give consent. I go to the door and try to open it. Still no consent. Door wont open, so my only choice is to enter through the pearly gates. I find myself thinking, "I wonder where all the Mormons are around here?" Then I remember that old rotted door. I guess it must have lead somewhere else.....

Ah, I found it... whatever... it's a completely useless thread.

Ah, I found it... whatever... it's a completely useless thread.
its just a stress release for him

bump :)

why do mormons baptise dead people?If you got to the afterlife, and only then found out that you have to be baptized by the right authority to get into heaven, you'd get kinda mad, and wonder if there was anything to do to go back and fix it... but ya can't, cuz yer dead!

We have the power to baptize people in the name of people who have died. Since baptism can not be performed outside of a physical body, it has to be done by proxy. It's a lot of work, baptizing 20 billion people, but we're up for it.

In the afterlife, you have the choice to accept the baptism or blow it off as just another mormon missionary effort (Yup, there are missionaries in the afterlife! muahahaha!).

So basically, we put the offer of salvation on the table for those who want a second chance. Nothing is forced upon you, and nothing is decided for you.

I love the smell of bullsh*t in the morning.

To me, "baptising" someone who is deceased is as disrespectful as digging up a body and screwing it. It may sound harsh, but that's what I believe. What the mormons are doing is no less than blasphemy, to me.
I don't buy into all this "you have to be baptised and a member of [insert name of religion here] to get into heaven! otherwise you're going to hell!" cr*p. As far as I'm concerned, if you live a decent life, try to be generally good to your fellow human beings, and don't go around screwing people over, you'll probably have good afterlife. Religion is in the message, not the petty details, in my opinion.

I have heard of this practice previously.

I have a real problem with people making decisions for me without my consent. No matter how well intended the Mormon church is, it's for ME to decide which church I will be baptised into... if any.

It's rape. Having something forced upon you, without consent is rape. That's immoral in my books, and not what a religious group should be doing.

its already been said that the practice is "spiritual necrophiliac rape"

its already been said that the practice is "spiritual necrophiliac rape"
As it is. I just needed to add my bit to the discussion, it's something I feel very strongly about.

Let's not forget that Raysia got so angry after seeing mosaic of bush made up of the faces of dead soldiers that he got deleted :lol:

I'm starting to see why ex-mormons have problems adjusting to society, because society functions with "logic"...

Let's not forget that Raysia got so angry after seeing mosaic of bush made up of the faces of dead soldiers that he got deleted :lol:

I'm starting to see why ex-mormons have problems adjusting to society, because society functions with "logic"...

this isnt a mormon bashing topic

Let's not forget that Raysia got so angry after seeing mosaic of bush made up of the faces of dead soldiers that he got deleted :lol:

I'm starting to see why ex-mormons have problems adjusting to society, because society functions with "logic"...

this isnt a mormon bashing topic

No, I was merely pointing out that the photo-mosaic was using the identities of dead people, and this deeply offended him.

Which isn't logical

Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead

By MARK THIESSEN
Associated Press Writer





SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Researchers say that Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

"We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."

Church spokesman Dale Bills said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "do not know what may come of these discussions, but we welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.




"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database.

"The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.

Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.

The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.

The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents.

In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.

---
they are baptising dead people? isnt that a bit disrespectful, especially when the baptised people arent mormons? Kill 'um all....

Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead
<snip>
Kill 'um all.... :shock:

*bump* :)

*bump* :)

and a BUMP in the night

The Mormons confuse me profusely. :?

The Mormons confuse me profusely. :?

Thats becuase the Mormon religion was conceived in insanity..and has stayed well within those lines.

The Mormons confuse me profusely. :?

Thats becuase the Mormon religion was conceived in insanity..and has stayed well within those lines.

Meh. I don't like this particular practice, and their response generally sums up what I HATE about certain religious perspectives, but it's not like their religion is necessarily "crazier" than some others.

i just can't get over how horribly disrespectful this practice is, and i fully agree with earlier posts refering to it as spiritual rape. i have no respect whatsoever for the beliefs of any person who supports such a practice, since they are thereby making it perfectly clear that they don't respect the beliefs of others. every Mormon grave should be dug up and de-baptized through Satanic rituals or something...i'd say that might be a small measure of justice for the victims of this hideous Mormon practice.

i just can't get over how horribly disrespectful this practice is, and i fully agree with earlier posts refering to it as spiritual rape. i have no respect whatsoever for the beliefs of any person who supports such a practice, since they are thereby making it perfectly clear that they don't respect the beliefs of others. every Mormon grave should be dug up and de-baptized through Satanic rituals or something...i'd say that might be a small measure of justice for the victims of this hideous Mormon practice.

nice way of getting revenge bottle

I seriously do not see how this can be by any means analogous to pissing on a grave or raping a dead body. Come on guys.

Baptizing for the dead is no more 'harmful' than praying for someone who is alive.

Baptizing for the dead is just saying to the guy on the other side "Hey, you have this option to leave hell, if you want it, it's there."

i just can't get over how horribly disrespectful this practice is, and i fully agree with earlier posts refering to it as spiritual rape. i have no respect whatsoever for the beliefs of any person who supports such a practice, since they are thereby making it perfectly clear that they don't respect the beliefs of others. every Mormon grave should be dug up and de-baptized through Satanic rituals or something...i'd say that might be a small measure of justice for the victims of this hideous Mormon practice.

nice way of getting revenge bottle

fortunately for me i plan to have my remains disposed of in a way that will make them un-baptize-able, so the Mormons will have to find some other graves to desecrate. they're nothing but grave-robbing thugs, and i think their own God would send them to Hell for such blasphemy against their fellow humans.

i just can't get over how horribly disrespectful this practice is, and i fully agree with earlier posts refering to it as spiritual rape. i have no respect whatsoever for the beliefs of any person who supports such a practice, since they are thereby making it perfectly clear that they don't respect the beliefs of others. every Mormon grave should be dug up and de-baptized through Satanic rituals or something...i'd say that might be a small measure of justice for the victims of this hideous Mormon practice.

nice way of getting revenge bottle

fortunately for me i plan to have my remains disposed of in a way that will make them un-baptize-able, so the Mormons will have to find some other graves to desecrate. they're nothing but grave-robbing thugs, and i think their own God would send them to Hell for such blasphemy against their fellow humans.I'm sorry, but that the eff are you talking about?

You seriously think we dig up graves? come on

I seriously do not see how this can be by any means analogous to pissing on a grave or raping a dead body. Come on guys.

Baptizing for the dead is no more 'harmful' than praying for someone who is alive.

Baptizing for the dead is just saying to the guy on the other side "Hey, you have this option to leave hell, if you want it, it's there."

no, it's saying "even though you didn't believe in our system of worship, we are going to force it upon you. you don't believe in Hell, or don't believe in our version of Hell, but we are so pompous and full of selfish pride that we are going to corrupt your remains and your memory with a service designed only to further our personal interests. we clearly care nothing about you and have no respect for your memory, and we publicly spit on your life by dishonoring you in death."

if they had wanted to be baptized they would have chosen it. making that choice for them is not an act of kindness, it is an act of violation. it's just like a rapist who claims the victim really wanted it. it's sick, and shameful, and i can't even imagine how anyone could honor a God who would approve of such cowardly and pathetic practices.

I seriously do not see how this can be by any means analogous to pissing on a grave or raping a dead body. Come on guys.

Baptizing for the dead is no more 'harmful' than praying for someone who is alive.

Baptizing for the dead is just saying to the guy on the other side "Hey, you have this option to leave hell, if you want it, it's there."

no, it's saying "even though you didn't believe in our system of worship, we are going to force it upon you. you don't believe in Hell, or don't believe in our version of Hell, but we are so pompous and full of selfish pride that we are going to corrupt your remains and your memory with a service designed only to further our personal interests. we clearly care nothing about you and have no respect for your memory, and we publicly spit on your life by dishonoring you in death."

if they had wanted to be baptized they would have chosen it. making that choice for them is not an act of kindness, it is an act of violation. it's just like a rapist who claims the victim really wanted it. it's sick, and shameful, and i can't even imagine how anyone could honor a God who would approve of such cowardly and pathetic practices.?!?!?! IT'S A FRIKKIN NAME!!!!!

i just can't get over how horribly disrespectful this practice is, and i fully agree with earlier posts refering to it as spiritual rape. i have no respect whatsoever for the beliefs of any person who supports such a practice, since they are thereby making it perfectly clear that they don't respect the beliefs of others. every Mormon grave should be dug up and de-baptized through Satanic rituals or something...i'd say that might be a small measure of justice for the victims of this hideous Mormon practice.

nice way of getting revenge bottle

fortunately for me i plan to have my remains disposed of in a way that will make them un-baptize-able, so the Mormons will have to find some other graves to desecrate. they're nothing but grave-robbing thugs, and i think their own God would send them to Hell for such blasphemy against their fellow humans.I'm sorry, but that the eff are you talking about?

You seriously think we dig up graves? come on

there was an article in my local paper about a Mormon church fighting to exhume the body of a gentleman who left their congregation, to baptize him post-humously. because he had no living family they took it upon themselves to re-enter him into their faith, despite the fact that his friends said he had left their religion several years before, and expressed no desire to return.

Mormons baptising dead people of different denomination is disrespectful to that persons faith, and an insult to thier memory.
Its as if the Mormons are saying..."well....only WE have the Truth..so, we should baptise you so that you too, can go to heaven....(becuase YOUR faith wont get you there.)

Its an insane religion based on bufoonery.

I seriously do not see how this can be by any means analogous to pissing on a grave or raping a dead body. Come on guys.

Baptizing for the dead is no more 'harmful' than praying for someone who is alive.

Baptizing for the dead is just saying to the guy on the other side "Hey, you have this option to leave hell, if you want it, it's there."

no, it's saying "even though you didn't believe in our system of worship, we are going to force it upon you. you don't believe in Hell, or don't believe in our version of Hell, but we are so pompous and full of selfish pride that we are going to corrupt your remains and your memory with a service designed only to further our personal interests. we clearly care nothing about you and have no respect for your memory, and we publicly spit on your life by dishonoring you in death."

if they had wanted to be baptized they would have chosen it. making that choice for them is not an act of kindness, it is an act of violation. it's just like a rapist who claims the victim really wanted it. it's sick, and shameful, and i can't even imagine how anyone could honor a God who would approve of such cowardly and pathetic practices.?!?!?! IT'S A FRIKKIN NAME!!!!!

if it means so little to you then why do you do it? to some people it is an important issue, so if it's "a frikkin name" then why disturb things?

raysias getting angry......

Bottle. Get this straight. There is not, nor has there ever been, any physical grave digging. We never dunk corpses in water or anything like that. We're weird, but we're not sick demented necrophilliacs.

All the ceremony is is this:

2 members of the church go into a baptismal font in the temple. One guy says to the other something like "I baptize you in John Doe's name" and then dunks them in the water.

It's a PROXY baptism. That means you baptize a LIVING person in the NAME of someone who is dead.

Ok, babtism for the dead is nothing more than an invitation. It is definatly not a conversion. If the dead don't like it, then they can just choose to not accept it. It is nothing more than a prayer for someone who is dead. And who are the relitives of the dead people to say that they cannot be saved in the afterlife? If I died and was stuck in hell forever because my son said that I can't get babtized I'd be pretty damn pissed. And don't Catholics babtize children at birth or close to it? What right do they have to decide a baby's religion for them? Yeah, that sounds stupid, because the baby doesn't have to accept it in later years. But the dead can choose not to accept it as well.

I seriously do not see how this can be by any means analogous to pissing on a grave or raping a dead body. Come on guys.

Baptizing for the dead is no more 'harmful' than praying for someone who is alive.

Baptizing for the dead is just saying to the guy on the other side "Hey, you have this option to leave hell, if you want it, it's there."

Let's try this AGAIN: You can "not see" our perspective all you want. It won't change the fact that we still have it, and that you guys apparently don't give a shit about it.

raysias getting angry......i'm fine, you guys are just treating this like we're digging up graves... come on guys, grow up, it's just a name.

I seriously do not see how this can be by any means analogous to pissing on a grave or raping a dead body. Come on guys.

Baptizing for the dead is no more 'harmful' than praying for someone who is alive.

Baptizing for the dead is just saying to the guy on the other side "Hey, you have this option to leave hell, if you want it, it's there."

no, it's saying "even though you didn't believe in our system of worship, we are going to force it upon you. you don't believe in Hell, or don't believe in our version of Hell, but we are so pompous and full of selfish pride that we are going to corrupt your remains and your memory with a service designed only to further our personal interests. we clearly care nothing about you and have no respect for your memory, and we publicly spit on your life by dishonoring you in death."

if they had wanted to be baptized they would have chosen it. making that choice for them is not an act of kindness, it is an act of violation. it's just like a rapist who claims the victim really wanted it. it's sick, and shameful, and i can't even imagine how anyone could honor a God who would approve of such cowardly and pathetic practices.?!?!?! IT'S A FRIKKIN NAME!!!!!

A name that does not belong to you. Give the dead the respect they deserve.

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

I don't see the two as being analogous at all. You can SEE this rite as a "gift", but I don't. And your position is to basically say, "tough, we don't CARE about what you want, or what your relatives wanted, we KNOW they want this gift, so we're going to give it to them. You don't like it, fuck off."

THAT'S my problem. The arrogance associated with this. What gives YOU the right to determine whether or not this actually IS a gift? Just because YOU think "all people" want it doesn't make it the case. In my case, I specifically TOLD YOU I would NEVER want to be baptized, and you EXPLICITLY said, "you don't have a choice".

... How am I supposed to react to that? Say thanks?

if they had wanted to be baptized they would have chosen it.What someone was locked up in a closet by his/her parents, who never spoke to him/her (this has actually happened), and s/he died of malnutrition?

In some ways, it really is analogous to rape. Let's say, you, a rapist, believes that your "seed" IS a gift. Therefore, you don't care about whether or not people WANT your "gift", because you KNOW they "really" do. Same principle. Now YOU'RE getting mad that WE'RE getting mad. What do you expect me to do, bend over and spread?

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.

In some ways, it really is analogous to rape. Let's say, you, a rapist, believes that your "seed" IS a gift. Therefore, you don't care about whether or not people WANT your "gift", because you KNOW they "really" do. Same principle. Now YOU'RE getting mad that WE'RE getting mad. What do you expect me to do, bend over and spread?Now you're still misunderstanding. It's not forcing anything on anyone. It's not converting you whether you want it or not. it's making it POSSIBLE to convert.

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.


Im treating this exactly the way I see it, as an insult to the persons faith, and arrogance in the assumption that only the LDS, have the "true" knowledge of god.

Ok, babtism for the dead is nothing more than an invitation. It is definatly not a conversion. If the dead don't like it, then they can just choose to not accept it. It is nothing more than a prayer for someone who is dead. And who are the relitives of the dead people to say that they cannot be saved in the afterlife? If I died and was stuck in hell forever because my son said that I can't get babtized I'd be pretty damn pissed. And don't Catholics babtize children at birth or close to it? What right do they have to decide a baby's religion for them? Yeah, that sounds stupid, because the baby doesn't have to accept it in later years. But the dead can choose not to accept it as well.


What the whole thing boils down to is this: "You were too stupid to get indoctrinated into our church in life, so were going to symbollically baptise you because you were to ignorant to do it when you were alive."

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.

I'm telling you NOW. And I told you BEFORE, quite clearly. And I'm telling you NOW so that there will be no doubt when I'm dead that I DO NOT want you people to use MY NAME, MY IDENTITY, in any baptism. Period.

What is so hard to understand about this? Who do I need to write a letter to? Do I need to include this in my godamn will to ensure you people leave me the fuck alone?

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.


Im treating this exactly the way I see it, as an insult to the persons faith, and arrogance in the assumption that only the LDS, have the "true" knowledge of god.LOL why? Muslims say it, Catholics say it, and protestants say it... why can't the Mormons say it?

What the whole thing boils down to is this: "You were too stupid to get indoctrinated into our church in life, so were going to symbollically baptise you because you were to ignorant to do it when you were alive."More like "Just in case you missed out on us on Earth, here's your chance to learn the truth in the afterlife."

keep in mind, mormons have a COMPLETELY unique definition of the afterlife.

In some ways, it really is analogous to rape. Let's say, you, a rapist, believes that your "seed" IS a gift. Therefore, you don't care about whether or not people WANT your "gift", because you KNOW they "really" do. Same principle. Now YOU'RE getting mad that WE'RE getting mad. What do you expect me to do, bend over and spread?Now you're still misunderstanding. It's not forcing anything on anyone. It's not converting you whether you want it or not. it's making it POSSIBLE to convert.

I don't CARE if YOU don't think that it's offensive. I do, and I have the RIGHT to think so. And, more importantly, I SHOULD have the right to control what happens to me when I'm dead. Non-Mormons should have the right to control what happens to their community members. You had no RIGHT to baptize Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...

NO RIGHT.

These people are important and dear to us. You probably have never even heard of them. To you they're just "more names". And our anger and hurt is just "noise".

Once again, we are powerless to control what happens to our dead.

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.


Im treating this exactly the way I see it, as an insult to the persons faith, and arrogance in the assumption that only the LDS, have the "true" knowledge of god.LOL why? Muslims say it, Catholics say it, and protestants say it... why can't the Mormons say it?

Becuase other faiths usually have enough repect for each other not to attempt to indoctrinate the dead.

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.

I'm telling you NOW. And I told you BEFORE, quite clearly. And I'm telling you NOW so that there will be no doubt when I'm dead that I DO NOT want you people to use MY NAME, MY IDENTITY, in any baptism. Period.

What is so hard to understand about this? Who do I need to write a letter to? Do I need to include this in my godamn will to ensure you people leave me the f--- alone?50 East North Temple, Salt Lake City UT

In some ways, it really is analogous to rape. Let's say, you, a rapist, believes that your "seed" IS a gift. Therefore, you don't care about whether or not people WANT your "gift", because you KNOW they "really" do. Same principle. Now YOU'RE getting mad that WE'RE getting mad. What do you expect me to do, bend over and spread?Now you're still misunderstanding. It's not forcing anything on anyone. It's not converting you whether you want it or not. it's making it POSSIBLE to convert.

I don't CARE if YOU don't think that it's offensive. I do, and I have the RIGHT to think so. And, more importantly, I SHOULD have the right to control what happens to me when I'm dead. Non-Mormons should have the right to control what happens to their community members. You had no RIGHT to baptize Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...

NO RIGHT.Like I said. If you are so damned sure you don't want this, then write a letter to the LDS Main Office at 50 East North Temple, Salt Lake City, UT, or call them at 801-240-2190 and request that your name not be baptized.

you ALWAYS have a choice.

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?

Becuase other faiths usually have enough repect for each other not to attempt to indoctrinate the dead.Indoctrinate? Hardly. it's no worse than me knocking on your door.

Qahjoh: Would you be mad if I wired $20 into your bank account?

why would he need anything from you?

its the same way with heaven.

Hes a Jew..whos (possibly) comfortablew ith his faith..he wouldnt need yours.yeah, of course, in which case he could tell me to eff off and keep my money. But it'd still be there if he wanted it.

Quit treating this like it is more than it is.


Im treating this exactly the way I see it, as an insult to the persons faith, and arrogance in the assumption that only the LDS, have the "true" knowledge of god.LOL why? Muslims say it, Catholics say it, and protestants say it... why can't the Mormons say it?

I don't care what you SAY- it's what you DO that matters to me. You can rail about how hellbound we are till you get blue in the face- but leave us OUT of your ceremonies. That's where the violation (or at least, from our perspective, the FEELING of violation) comes in.

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?No one objected...

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

Becuase other faiths usually have enough repect for each other not to attempt to indoctrinate the dead.Indoctrinate? Hardly. it's no worse than me knocking on your door.

and the only reason you would do that is if you wanted to indoctrinate me.

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?No one objected...

Was anyone informed? I doubt it.

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?No one objected...

and you dont think they would have if they had been alive?

*sigh* I'm repeating myself here... I seriously I don't think I'm getting through to you guys.

I'm outta here.

Arcadiamus, Roskelley, you can take over from here.

Yes, Raysia, you do seem to be getting angry. Please calm down.

However, I can see what he's mad about. This thread has been just bashing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints all along and Raysia is trying to show you what he believes, and all you can do is continue to assault him.

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them. If they do not accept the ordinance of baptism, it doesn't count, it is nothing, just a person being dunked in some water. If they do accept it then it is as if they were baptized in life by one with the proper authority. And, yes, we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is the only true and living church upon the earth, not because we're great, but because God restored it through a 14-year-old boy who was humble enough to accept it. There is only one set of eternal laws, the universe is what it is, and as there is set of eternal truths no differing sets of 'truths' can be true.

What I am saying is that God restored the gospel of Jesus Christ and that His church is that which you call the Mormons (Mormon, by the way, was a really cool guy), and that He would not be a just God if everyone did not have the chance to accept His church.

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?No one objected...

and you dont think they would have if they had been alive?They can while they're dead... big deal

*sigh* I'm repeating myself here... I seriously I don't think I'm getting through to you guys.

I'm outta here.

Arcadiamus, Roskelley, you can take over from here.

Time to abandon a thread when your outclassed, and incorrect and start a new thread is it?

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?

Everyone's been saying that it doesn't count if they don't accept it. So they did have a choice.

Yes, Raysia, you do seem to be getting angry. Please calm down.

However, I can see what he's mad about. This thread has been just bashing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints all along and Raysia is trying to show you what he believes, and all you can do is continue to assault him.

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them. If they do not accept the ordinance of baptism, it doesn't count, it is nothing, just a person being dunked in some water. If they do accept it then it is as if they were baptized in life by one with the proper authority. And, yes, we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is the only true and living church upon the earth, not because we're great, but because God restored it through a 14-year-old boy who was humble enough to accept it. There is only one set of eternal laws, the universe is what it is, and as there is set of eternal truths no differing sets of 'truths' can be true.

What I am saying is that God restored the gospel of Jesus Christ and that His church is that which you call the Mormons (Mormon, by the way, was a really cool guy), and that He would not be a just God if everyone did not have the chance to accept His church.finally, someone who can explain it better than me! :)

take over, I'll watch :)

Einstein, Freud, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, Sholom Aleichem, Rashi, Maimonides...


Did they have a choice?No one objected...

and you dont think they would have if they had been alive?They can while they're dead... big deal

"Big deal"?

Fuck you. Over and over again. Fuck you for spitting on our people, including rabbis, martyrs and Holocaust victims. And fuck you for spitting on people like me, who try to explain why this upsets us, and get dismissed out of hand.

Fuck off.

*sigh* I'm repeating myself here... I seriously I don't think I'm getting through to you guys.

I'm outta here.

Arcadiamus, Roskelley, you can take over from here.

Time to abandon a thread when your outclassed, and incorrect and start a new thread is it?

Stubborness can win an argument, but it doesn't make you right, and that is what you are showing. You haven't outclassed him, just shown that he has the power to admit when nothing can be done because of man's pride.

*sigh* I'm repeating myself here... I seriously I don't think I'm getting through to you guys.

I'm outta here.

Arcadiamus, Roskelley, you can take over from here.

Time to abandon a thread when your outclassed, and incorrect and start a new thread is it?

Stubborness can win an argument, but it doesn't make you right, and that is what you are showing. You haven't outclassed him, just shown that he has the power to admit when nothing can be done because of man's pride.BS=Pwned ;)

link please.

link please. http://www.mormon.org/ :)

raysias getting angry......i'm fine, you guys are just treating this like we're digging up graves... come on guys, grow up, it's just a name.

I think it's great that you have the decency to not dig up people's remains without their (and I mean *their*) consent.
Now why don't you extend that decency to their souls as well?

Yes, Raysia, you do seem to be getting angry. Please calm down.

However, I can see what he's mad about. This thread has been just bashing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints all along and Raysia is trying to show you what he believes, and all you can do is continue to assault him.

I have not "bashed" the Church at all. I have said that I have a problem with this particular practice, and have explained why in detail, REPEATEDLY. In exchange, I have been told several times that I "just don't understand"- in other words, you people could give a shit how I and millions of others feel.

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil:

If they do not accept the ordinance of baptism, it doesn't count, it is nothing, just a person being dunked in some water.

You see it as "just a dunk". I see it as defiling their spirit and identity, and as being a slap in the face to their religion. Why should I feel this any less simply because you think I'm wrong?

and what if the person has no family? do you go ahead and assume the person accepted your ritual?

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil: Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice.

dp

*sigh* I'm repeating myself here... I seriously I don't think I'm getting through to you guys.

I'm outta here.

Arcadiamus, Roskelley, you can take over from here.

Time to abandon a thread when your outclassed, and incorrect and start a new thread is it?

Stubborness can win an argument, but it doesn't make you right, and that is what you are showing. You haven't outclassed him, just shown that he has the power to admit when nothing can be done because of man's pride.

No.

What he has shown is an unwillingness to consider other peoples faiths and beliefs...
Look at Qah'Joh...the guy is practically foaming at the mouth over this..'
Why?

Becuase to him..and many other Jews...you are spitting in the face of his faith.
(A faith far older, and respected than yours I might add.)

Why did it never occur to you people, that this could be construed as an attempt to indoctrinate the souls of the dead, against the wishes of the living?

It did.
And The LDS will continue it regardless wont they?
Because they simply dont care about anyone elses beliefs.

and what if the person has no family? do you go ahead and assume the person accepted your ritual?

[Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice

anytime the phrase "Join us or die " was uttered.

and what if the person has no family? do you go ahead and assume the person accepted your ritual?No. They choose whether or not to accept it.

The greater insult comes when someone on Earth chooses for them.

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil: Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice.

*puts a gun against your head*

Congratulations! You now have the opportunity to stay alive by giving me your money! Isn't that great! And no injustice in sight!

*sigh* I'm repeating myself here... I seriously I don't think I'm getting through to you guys.

I'm outta here.

Arcadiamus, Roskelley, you can take over from here.

Time to abandon a thread when your outclassed, and incorrect and start a new thread is it?

Stubborness can win an argument, but it doesn't make you right

There's no "right" here, because it comes down to theology. All there is is what YOU guys believe and what others believe. I don't EXPECT you to change your beliefs because of what I say. The only thing I want you to understand is how this FEELS, from my perspective.

Because, see, I really do think I can SEE your perspective. I think I can even understand it. In some ways, I feel sorry for the perdicament you guys are in. But I don't see this understanding reciprocated. Instead, I see, over and over again, "tough", "deal with it", "suck it up". It all means the same thing: You don't matter; you have no control; you're angry, you're hurt, and WE DON'T CARE.

... How do you think I should respond?

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil: Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice.

*puts a gun against your head*

Congratulations! You now have the opportunity to stay alive by giving me your money! Isn't that great! And no injustice in sight!Are you saying we're holding a gun to your head?! Come on man

another thing...

What makes the Mormons assume that these people werent already IN Heaven?

and what if the person has no family? do you go ahead and assume the person accepted your ritual?

Why, such, as for instance, HOLOCAUST victims? :shock: :wink: :cry:

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil: Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice.

*puts a gun against your head*

Congratulations! You now have the opportunity to stay alive by giving me your money! Isn't that great! And no injustice in sight!Are you saying we're holding a gun to your head?! Come on man

Do you remember your question?

You guys keep using the same argument, that we're forcing something on them, that we're not giving them any choice.

The truth is it is exactly the opposite. We are not forcing anything on them, we are giving them a choice.

I, too, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And giving someone an opportunity is not an injustice to them.

YOUR OPINION! :evil: Name one other situation where giving someone an oppurtunity is an injustice.

As someone else already pointed out- not everyone sees "conversion" as an opportunity. The Inquisition comes to mind.

*puts a gun against your head*

Congratulations! You now have the opportunity to stay alive by giving me your money! Isn't that great! And no injustice in sight!How about an opportunity where turning it down leaves you no better or worse off than before the offer was made?

Are you saying we're holding a gun to your head?! Come on man

No..your pulling the trigger, and assuming that the person will thank you for it.

and what if the person has no family? do you go ahead and assume the person accepted your ritual?

Why, such, as for instance, HOLOCAUST victims? :shock: :wink: :cry:What, you're going to decide their fate for them? That seems like a much greater insult to them.

In the afterlife, they think "Oh, hey, that mormon's gonna give me a choice... wait a second, Qahjoh says I can't have that choice!"

You guys keep using the same argument, that we're forcing something on them, that we're not giving them any choice.

The truth is it is exactly the opposite. We are not forcing anything on them, we are giving them a choice.

And you keep using YOUR same argument- that it's NOT really being forced on them, because the souls can "choose".

But what if someone doesn't believe that the souls CAN choose? And, even if one were to believe that the soul CAN choose, what effect does that have on the fact that the rite is performed, ANYWAY? I don't believe that you guys are going to have an effect on my soul if you baptize me, for instance. I see the CEREMONY ITSELF as offensive.

... And how exactly can you get around that, if I may ask?

Are you saying we're holding a gun to your head?! Come on man

No..your pulling the trigger, and assuming that the person will thank you for it.I really don't see how we're pulling any trigger... what we do will neither harm them or make them worse off if they decline.

*puts a gun against your head*

Congratulations! You now have the opportunity to stay alive by giving me your money! Isn't that great! And no injustice in sight!How about an opportunity where turning it down leaves you no better or worse off than before the offer was made?

Aah, changing the stakes eh?

You guys keep using the same argument, that we're forcing something on them, that we're not giving them any choice.

The truth is it is exactly the opposite. We are not forcing anything on them, we are giving them a choice.

Wrong.

Are you, or are you not...baptising (even by proxy..its the thought that counts)..a person of a different faith.....who would likely already have joined your religion if they'd wanted to....when they were alive?

Are you saying we're holding a gun to your head?! Come on man

No..your pulling the trigger, and assuming that the person will thank you for it.I really don't see how we're pulling any trigger... what we do will neither harm them or make them worse off if they decline.

That's your opinion.