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Related Topic/poll: Do they exist? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=562404)

Sentients Rights Act
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: SchutteGod

Description: The World Assembly,

Acknowledging that the recognition of the rights of sapients under international law remains a contentious issue within these halls;

Applauding the efforts of nations to extend essential rights and freedoms to non-human sapients in their own territories, and to lobby on behalf of non-human sapients on the global stage;

Affirming that all sapient creatures deserve the same rights and freedoms extended to humans, and that all sentient beings are deserving of protection under international law;

Noting that this legislation applies only to natural biological sapient species:

Defines "sapience" as independent capacity for wisdom, judgment, the formation of rational, abstract or logical thoughts, and the ability to communicate these thoughts with others;

Defines "sentience" as the ability to perceive consciousness or self-awareness, an intelligence that does not necessarily rise to the level of sapience;

Declares that member nations shall determine which biological species residing in their own borders possess sentient or sapient qualities, provided that the process involved is fair and even-handed and excludes potential conflicts of interest, that all available valid and confirmed scientific evidence is taken into account, and that denials of sentient or sapient status can be appealed to a higher, disinterested official or body within the government;

Requires member states to extend rights, freedoms, privileges and entitlements, on a par with those guaranteed to humans under international law, to all sapient species under their jurisdiction;

Obligates member states to take all prudent and necessary measures to protect all sentient creatures under their jurisdiction from deliberate, unprovoked harm, violence, killings, or extermination.

-----

PRESIDING OFFICER. The Clerk will now report the minutes of the previous session.

RECORDING CLERK. The minutes for the December 17, 2005 session of the United Nations General Assembly. Reformentia introduced a bill protecting the Rights of Biological Sapients, which was immediately seconded by the short dudes of Ausserland. Intangelon objected, on the grounds that sapient beings other than humans DO NOT EXIST AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME RECOGNIZE THEM IF I DON'T WANT TO LALALALALALA!!! The Palentine objected, on the grounds that its navy dolphins were the scourge of the Southern Seas, and that to give them rights amounted to "an act of terrorism" by the international community. A video presentation followed, Rated R for Unbelievably Foul Language, featuring said dolphins, and urging viewers, "Come Visit The Palentine: Our Dolphins Swear Like Drunken Sailors!" The Lynx Alliance then launched into a tirade about how everything, from bacteria to Alien Lifeforms from the Planet Bumpo, is sapient, and how we should never wipe our hands after sneezing, for fear of harming a sapient creature. A few more minutes of DLE brown-nosing followed. Speaking of aliens, Fonzoland, Ardchoille, and a few other national delegations would not stop snickering about a related legislative project on "Alien Rights." The Kennyites began attacking random delegations with spitballs and Super Soakers. The Yeldans retaliated with balloons filled with Fine Yeldan Cheez-Whiz™. Cluichstan scoffed at such inferior volleys, claiming its "fucking Death Star, man!!" was nearly finished, to put all other manners of weaponry to shame. The roll was called. The bill was defeated, 80 gazillion votes to none. We all went home.

PRESIDING OFFICER. The ambassador from SchutteGod.

AMBASSADOR SHEMP. Thank you, Madame Secretary-General, and may I just say, you're looking particularly lovely this evening--?

PRESIDING OFFICER. That was my parking space you had your run-down Pinto in, and you still have to pay the fine, no matter how well you can suck-up!

AMBASSADOR SHEMP. Yes, ma'am. I move to reopen debate on this issue.

Disgusted groans erupt throughout the hall.

AMBASSADOR SHEMP. But this bill is better! It's positively wank-proof, and I promise you, the Reformentians never touched it!

Unassured grumblings from the assembled delegates.

PRESIDING OFFICER. The Clerk will report the bill.

LEGISLATIVE CLERK. Sentients Rights Act. A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

PRESIDING OFFICER. The ambassador from Flibbleites.

AMBASSADOR FLIBBLE. Thank you. Ambassador Shemp, why do you want to reopen this can of worms?!?

AMBASSADOR SHEMP. Madame Secretary-General, I move that last bit of Godmoding be stricken from record.

PRESIDING OFFICER. Whatever. Who's next?

It is the opinion of the government of Krioval that this resolution is a sound and decent addition to the legislative body of this grand institution. Sapient beings, from humans, to stripper commandos, and even to our Great Chief, are worthy of respect and dignity. Best of luck, Your Excellencies.

Ambassador Jevo Telovar
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

We congratulate our regional colleagues on getting their proposal to quorum.

We will obviously be neutral on the issue, and cast our vote according to regional consensus. But we do have, if not a question, at least a point of speculation. While the definition of 'sapience' refers to 'rational', there is no universal conception of what is rational. The notable neo-Quodistotlean philosopher Alasdair Quackintyre has indeed written a book, Whose Justice? Which Rationality, in which he contrasts competing claims for rationality.

The WA doesn't have much of a body of law at the moment, but if it at some future point comes to more closely resemble the old UN, there are some topics it might legislate on that would present difficulties in light of this issue. I'm not talking about age of consent laws - that's fine, don't care.

For example: a number of economic theories involve speculation about microeconomic behaviour, for example, the rational actor model. This is based on observation of human behaviour, indeed, some behavioural scientists have been honoured in the world of economics (in the 1970s, for example, the Quodite psychologist Daniel Quahneman was given our nation's highest medal for economists). This won't necessarily hold true for species that do exhibit sapience as defined, but whose rational precepts differ. For example, a zombie could be wise, logical, and communicative, but still inexplicably turn down a nice steak dinner, instead roaming the street in search of BRAAAAAAIIIINS. Any economic proposals might then founder, because they would be based on theories not applicable to all persons.

For example: a common precept of the rule of law is innocence until guilt is proven. Yet some species have dispositions that make this a questionable standard. A vampire needs to drink blood in order to survive. Excepting suicidal vampires, or ones finding alternate forms of sustenance, we are left with the prospect of having to assume the innocence of the bashful, black-clad gentleman in the corner when a woman turns up with her pale neck pricked with twin fangs. (Arranging a police line-up would also be murder.) One could alternatively moot that, in the common argument about capital punishment, 'deterrence' suddenly becomes irrelevant for immortal or regenerative species.

For example: plenty of health issues, from diseases (AIDS, TB, malaria) to practices (alcohol abuse, FGM, sex), would be irrelevant for non-human species.

For example: most environmental laws are based on what is good for humans. Air and water pollution are bad because we need clean air and clean water. Light pollution, though, is hardly a political factor, outside a tiny coterie of astronomers. But for a race of sapient birds (such as that depicted in the work of noted sci-fi author Ursula Q. Le Quin) it could be damaging to migratory patterns. (In fact, speaking of migration, that concept would take on a whole different concept for non-land-based sapients.)

Maybe I'm veering into the ridiculous. (I am, admittedly, trying to approach this a little tongue-in-cheek.) But I suppose my basic point is: lots of the arguments the WA has had and is likely to have depend on some shared allegiance to 'humanity'. It infected, as was pointed out, my own torture proposal, which made reference to torture as a 'crime against humanity'. This commonly used phrase has a specific connotation.

We base our laws on what humans do. Humans are dangerous, so can't be trusted with guns. Or, humans are dangerous, so need to be armed. Humans are stupid, so shouldn't determine national policy. Or, humans aren't stupid, so democracy is essential. Humans are selfish, so we need waste dumping laws. Or, humans aren't selfish, so waste dumping laws are unnecessary bureaucracy. While I acknowledge this proposal has indeed come up with as good a definition as any of the universal characteristics of 'sapience', and while I, and the nation I represent, would not wish to deny genuine biological sapients - 'toaster rights' are an entirely different issue - the right to life or liberty or essential protections, we must admit that we hope that, once this proposal is resolved upon, the WA will remain fundamentally a human institution.

-- Samantha Benson
etc. etc.
Quintessence of Dust, Delegate of Wysteria

A Neanderthal gentleman rises to address the General Assembly.

Glog MAD!!!

Glog walk many miles, swim river, wade through swamp, fight snake, fight panther, fight bear. Glog kill bear. Cook and eat. Bear GOOD!!!

Glog walk many more miles, sleep in rain, catch crab lice and fall over cliff trying to reach UN Cave Mountain. Glog come to place of UN Cave Mountain. Cave Mountain not there. Where mountain go? Glog not know.

Glog go to Vastiva Memorial Reflecting Pool. Still there. Swans still swimming in pool. Glog kill swans. Eat. Swans GOOD!!!

Glog look across reflecting pool. See Kennyite rutting with catgirl in tall grass. Glog ask "where UN Cave Mountain"? Kennyite say "Glog find own catgirl! Glog go away!"

Glog go away.

Glog wander around old UN Cave Mountain place. Glog see Ausserlander dwarf. Glog ask "where UN Cave Mountain"? Ausserlander give Glog sammich. Sammich GOOD!!! Dwarf say "UN Cave Mountain no more. New cave mountain called WA Cave Mountain. Over there. Glog go. Speak to WA people".

Glog walk many more miles, swim more rivers, wade through more swamps, fight more snakes, fight more panthers, fight more bears, sleep in more rain, catch more crab lice and fall over more cliffs.

Glog come to WA Cave Mountain. Cave mountain full of drunks, stoners, weirdos, military fruitcakes, sex addicts, rejects, dear little kiddies, honest family types and militant machistas. Just like UN Cave Mountain.

Glog see WA Law "Sentients Rights Act". WA Law GOOD!!! Glog happy now. WA Law give rights to Glog people. Cro-Magnon people no longer say "Glog people not human. Glog people go away!!"

WA Law GOOD!!! Glog support.

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

welcome back, g l o g!

sara mavenu
UN rep

No being has a right to endanger other sapient beings. This resolution, however, would give some species that right. Lycanthropis sapiens, now bound by restriction laws, would necessarily have freedom of movement even during their period of transformation. It is irrational to grant even sapient werecreatures a right no human has.

Is it just me or is this really silly? non-human sentient beings do not exist! the closest you get is q chimpanzee or a dolphin! IF extra-terrestrials with an equal or greater intellegence to us are found then by allmeqns Antipodesia would sign this resoultion, HOWEVER we refuse to sign a resolution that would effectively be null and void as it covers things that do not exist. We would however back any bill that looked for the international protection of highly intellegent non-human animals such as great apes, dolphins, and sea eagles (our national bird)

I was amazed this even made it to a vote.. This seems silly.. and I dont see a way for science to prove any of the demands.. "Birds chirp so they are highly intelligent" .. They also fly into windows thinking there is nothing there.. This has been put to a vote in my region.. With myself voting no.

This to me a pointless resolution.

Yours
Delegate of La Mafia

Is it just me or is this really silly? non-human sentient beings do not exist! the closest you get is q chimpanzee or a dolphin! IF extra-terrestrials with an equal or greater intellegence to us are found then by allmeqns Antipodesia would sign this resoultion, HOWEVER we refuse to sign a resolution that would effectively be null and void as it covers things that do not exist. We would however back any bill that looked for the international protection of highly intellegent non-human animals such as great apes, dolphins, and sea eagles (our national bird)

"AHEM!"

(A bipedal Ursine, about eight feet tall and wearing full evening dress [including a top hat], walks across the room and looms over the Antipodesian ambassador...)

"Are you seriously trying to claim that I don't exist?!?"


Borrin o Redwood,
Ambassador to the World Assembly
for
High Council of Clans,
Confederated Clans of Free Bears of Bears Armed.

It's wonderful. I now remember why I gave votes to parrots in the first place.

A Neanderthal gentleman rises to address the General Assembly.

Glog MAD!!!

Glog walk many miles, swim river, wade through swamp, fight snake, fight panther, fight bear. Glog kill bear. Cook and eat. Bear GOOD!!!

Glog walk many more miles, sleep in rain, catch crab lice and fall over cliff trying to reach UN Cave Mountain. Glog come to place of UN Cave Mountain. Cave Mountain not there. Where mountain go? Glog not know.

Glog go to Vastiva Memorial Reflecting Pool. Still there. Swans still swimming in pool. Glog kill swans. Eat. Swans GOOD!!!

Glog look across reflecting pool. See Kennyite rutting with catgirl in tall grass. Glog ask "where UN Cave Mountain"? Kennyite say "Glog find own catgirl! Glog go away!"

Glog go away.

Glog wander around old UN Cave Mountain place. Glog see Ausserlander dwarf. Glog ask "where UN Cave Mountain"? Ausserlander give Glog sammich. Sammich GOOD!!! Dwarf say "UN Cave Mountain no more. New cave mountain called WA Cave Mountain. Over there. Glog go. Speak to WA people".

Glog walk many more miles, swim more rivers, wade through more swamps, fight more snakes, fight more panthers, fight more bears, sleep in more rain, catch more crab lice and fall over more cliffs.

Glog come to WA Cave Mountain. Cave mountain full of drunks, stoners, weirdos, military fruitcakes, sex addicts, rejects, dear little kiddies, honest family types and militant machistas. Just like UN Cave Mountain.

Glog see WA Law "Sentients Rights Act". WA Law GOOD!!! Glog happy now. WA Law give rights to Glog people. Cro-Magnon people no longer say "Glog people not human. Glog people go away!!"

WA Law GOOD!!! Glog support.

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

Well, after that speech from the Honourable Glog Firemaker, my then-indeterminate position on this resolution is now a little more well formed. I'll give this resolution my approval, at least until such time as a sound debate in opposition appears.

Damanucus' decision: APPROVE

Horgen Dush
WA Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus
Regional Delegate, The Galapagos Islands

A good argument against? How about that the resolution is without point lol I think that is a fairly good one.. This proves we can't keep the clutter out of the WA

The Environmental Fiscal Union of Minnow Economies admits that it is completely bemused by this resolution, which, with respect, appears to be either pointless, irresponsible, or badly worded. What is the purpose of this resolution? Presumably it regards animals, so is it to protect dolphins (If indeed a nation were to deem a dolphin "sapient" or "sentient")? Chimpanzees maybe? What from? Deforestation? Animal testing? International conflict? 12 Year Olds' armed with slingshots and an agenda?

And their rights? Are we to extend to "sapient" beings (of which the provided definition is vague and indefinite) the rights and privileges we extend to all of our citizens; you know, voting, drinking, smoking, driving cars, child adoption, bank loans, weapon ownership (where appropriate)?

Make no mistake, Minnow Economies regards the welfare of all animals as an admirable goal to strive towards, but we feel that this resolution is too vague and silly to advance that 'cause, and is more likely to trivialise the issue than go any way to solving it.

As a result, Minnow Economies may vote against this resolution, though we do not intend to officially vote for another 48 hours.

To the writers of this resolution, please clarify what you're trying to achieve.

Khalix Singh
Minnow Economixian and Environmental Nations Delegate to the World Assembly
The Axe Office
Minnow Economies

The Environmental Fiscal Union of Minnow Economies admits that it is completely bemused by this resolution, which, with respect, appears to be either pointless, irresponsible, or badly worded. What is the purpose of this resolution? Presumably it regards animals, so is it to protect dolphins (If indeed a nation were to deem a dolphin "sapient" or "sentient")? Chimpanzees maybe? What from? Deforestation? Animal testing? International conflict? 12 Year Olds' armed with slingshots and an agenda?

And their rights? Are we to extend to "sapient" beings (of which the provided definition is vague and indefinite) the rights and privileges we extend to all of our citizens; you know, voting, drinking, smoking, driving cars, child adoption, bank loans, weapon ownership (where appropriate)?

Make no mistake, Minnow Economies regards the welfare of all animals as an admirable goal to strive towards, but we feel that this resolution is too vague and silly to advance that 'cause, and is more likely to trivialise the issue than go any way to solving it.

As a result, Minnow Economies may vote against this resolution, though we do not intend to officially vote for another 48 hours.

To the writers of this resolution, please clarify what you're trying to achieve.

Khalix Singh
Minnow Economixian and Environmental Nations Delegate to the World Assembly
The Axe Office
Minnow Economies


There are nations peopled with talking Bears, Foxes, Dolphins, and numerous other creatures some mythical and legendary. Currently the W.A. 's protection of rights, civil and personal only applies to humans this is manifestly unfair. This excellent resolution will rectify that situation and ensure full protection of the rights of all the citizens of all it's member nations.

yours e.t.c. ,

This resolution is so vague, so corruptible, and so pointless that I have no choice but to vote against it, and I promise to support any motion to repeal it if it passes.

The only sentient beings in Aztor are the humans, and even that is in some debate. I have no big problem with this resolution, but just because there are nations with talking bears (even armed ones :p ), doesn't mean that the Aztorian forest bear is sentient.

The only sentient beings in Aztor are the humans, and even that is in some debate. I have no big problem with this resolution, but just because there are nations with talking bears (even armed ones :p ), doesn't mean that the Aztorian forest bear is sentient.

This resolution will not make all bears deserving of the same rights as humans. It will safeguard the rights only of sentient creatures of all and any species.
This is not an "Animal Rights" statute, it is a Sentient Rights statute, the difference is profound.

It's probably for the best if we simply ignore all those who deny with all certainty that non-human sapients do not exist. We are never going to convince them otherwise, and this resolution really wasn't written for them, only those with a degree of sophistication in their roleplay. It might be interesting, however, to see if those opposed on that basis ever referred to UN or WA gnomes in past missives. I would not be surprised.

However, I think I see an exception in Minnow Economies; its response will determine whether or not I'm wasting my time.

The Environmental Fiscal Union of Minnow Economies admits that it is completely bemused by this resolution, which, with respect, appears to be either pointless, irresponsible, or badly worded. What is the purpose of this resolution? Presumably it regards animals, so is it to protect dolphins (If indeed a nation were to deem a dolphin "sapient" or "sentient")? Chimpanzees maybe? What from? Deforestation? Animal testing? International conflict? 12 Year Olds' armed with slingshots and an agenda?Like the honorable Urgenchi representative has said, this does not necessarily refer to normal dolphins or chimpanzees, unless your scientists discover that they're sentient (and there is a difference between sentience and sapience). This is not animal-rights legislation. The bill refers to elves and dwarves and other beings that may exist in NS (and many NS nations claim they do) even if they don't in RL. We're talking from an in-character standpoint, of course, since this resolution, like all WA resolutions, was written in-character.

"Sapience" refers to independent capacity for human-level intelligence. Your government will be required to extend all international human rights to sapient species if they exist in your borders.

"Sentience" refers to self-awareness or self-consciousness, like some say dolphins and chimpanzees are capable of -- and since this is NS, likely many other species. Your government will be required to protect them from unprovoked harm if this is passed.

And their rights? Are we to extend to "sapient" beings (of which the provided definition is vague and indefinite) the rights and privileges we extend to all of our citizens; you know, voting, drinking, smoking, driving cars, child adoption, bank loans, weapon ownership (where appropriate)?No, only those rights granted humans under international law (that is, WA resolutions). Right now, that only includes the rights to a fair trial, not to be tortured, forced to work in unsafe conditions, or be subjected to hard labor as a child, but there are sure to be more.

Does this affect the hunting and eating of animals? Surely such a law would outlaw the harming of ALL animals?

What the hell are you speaking here about...? Is the WA crazy? Do not exist any other pressing questions than this nonsense...? Even as a joke it is a very bad one.

The Government of the Raj of Cobdenia considers the killing and eating of animals perfectly acceptable under this resolution, as they are provoking us with there meaty taste that would taste so good with a peppercorn sauce, served with potatoes

Does this affect the hunting and eating of animals? Surely such a law would outlaw the harming of ALL animals?No, only sentient ones. Animals with an unusually high level of intelligence, like (possibly) dolphins and chimps in RL.

We have voted for this resolution and fully support it's implementation. However we do have one question; will this resolution ban the testing of drugs and treatments on higher apes? Such testing is vital for saving human lives, and whilst we are aware of it's moral and ethical drawbacks we are concerned that no other option may be available to further the progress of medical science.

Yours e.t.c. ,

You want to have dolphins and chimps protected by law? Would that mean that if one chimp hit another that chimp could be sued for assault?

Coincidentally, our scientists have just finished testing sentience in various species throughout Ocelotonia. While we have so far found nothing, we recognise that there are other nations with a plethora of sentient and sapient species (as defined by this proposal) within their borders.

Therefore, we both recognise its irrelevance to us and its relevence to certain members of the WA.

Ergo, we will sit this one out on the big ol' fence in the middle and let those nations who would be directly affected slug this one out. Best of luck to y'all.

We have voted for this resolution and fully support it's implementation. However we do have one question; will this resolution ban the testing of drugs and treatments on higher apes? Such testing is vital for saving human lives, and whilst we are aware of it's moral and ethical drawbacks we are concerned that no other option may be available to further the progress of medical science.It only prohibits "deliberate, unprovoked harm," so not necessarily. And once again, it is up to your own government whether such higher apes are actually "sentient."

You want to have dolphins and chimps protected by law? Would that mean that if one chimp hit another that chimp could be sued for assault?No.

So they're not protected from other animals, they're protected from only humans?

We thank the esteemed ambassador for their reassuring reply, we momentarily forgot the sensible precautions of this resolution in this area. Once again we affirm our strong and complete support for this resolution.

with thanks,

You want to have dolphins and chimps protected by law? Would that mean that if one chimp hit another that chimp could be sued for assault?

If so, and if criminal charges were filed, it would be interesting seeing the offending chimp get a trial by a jury of its peers.

*snip*

OOC: Psst, your sig's too large.

Cecily Lockhelm had to see it for herself, perhaps as a alway to confirm the will of her people, specially after their allies have broken off from the World Assembly following a train of laws which they considered ridiculous "Pinko-liberal collections of buzzwords". She never visited the World Assembly before, and was quite discrete amidst the crowd of diplomats and bureaucrats around. As she checked the law that was being proposed, she finally understood why Enclave City left the Assembly to become again a "rogue" nation, and hiding a sigh, she felt an urge of let it out of her throat. Leaving in silence would not satisfy her, and thus, as the first opportunity to speak came, the stranger did not feel threatened by the fact she was not a delegate, and hoped to convince those who were to do something that could perhaps serve as the first step to make the WA be taken seriously rather than as a joke in her own nation. And thus she stood, in her wise youth, and threw her calm, but critical speech:

On behalf of our independent allies of Enclave City (http://www.nationstates.net/07589/page=display_nation/nation=aec_enclave), whose head of State Ron Rothbard Rand has openly stated their utmost disappointment with how far this institution has fallen in its credibility, diving into a metaphorical pound of lunacy and veiled bigotry. In deference to the fact that there is virtually no scientific account of any non-human sentience in Earth, I would like to remind you all that an human being does not loses his status as an human being after he dresses in a fursuit, or after it acquires an schizophrenic belief he is no longer human, nor that a group of LARPers dressing as vampires simply ceases to be human only because those behaviors are considered strange for the mainstream society.

Therefore, this law, like appointed by the former representative of Enclave city, who resigned from visiting this Assembly for personal and rational reasons, is completely irrelevant for our times. It is nothing but a bureaucratic waste of time to secure rights of entities which do not exist, and makes as much sense as declaring human rights for the flying spaghetti monster and for the pink invisible unicorns. Finally, this assembly is an union of human nations in our current, modern era, no matter if collective insanity led a few anorexic individuals with Spock ears super-glued to their ears or fursuiters with their zippers melted think they are no longer human.

I wish we could have a word in this assembly, yet we consider the overall insanity and folly that permeates decisions like this a too high price to pay, specially on laws which override the right of sovereignty. Most of our citizens consider the World Assembly an irrelevant, comical and powerless institution ridden with pseudo-leftist single cause liberals, and others wish for it to simply dissolve so it "no longer will waste valuable resources in its futile, useless goals, nor the time and creativity of great men into insane discussions." We consider the preservation of our inner sovereignty worthy of the sacrifice of not having the chance to engage into an herculean effort to ensure futile proposals like this are not approved, and following coercive laws which have broken the right-wing libertarian principles of Enclave City, they have taken the same choice.

In a previous interview poll, 89% of the Enclave citizens claim that they do not regret the decision of cutting all ties with World Assembly. Following this new proposal, a new research was conducted with polls and interviews, where 96% now consider the cut of all ties with this institution "a completely logical, sound decision that reinforces the sovereignty and reputation of Enclave as one of the few modern city-States of the world". And I have to fully agree with them, after witnessing this act of disrespect to common sense and logical reasoning. I truly hope that those among the World Assembly with a modicum of common sense can dismiss such absurdity completely irrelevant to our modern times, for Furries, Vampire LARPers and Trekkies, among others of those who would supposedly be benefited by this law are just human beings with non-mainstream interests and tastes, which makes this law as bigoted as a law which would grant "rights for black-skinned non-human sentient beings".

How do we know that Sapient or Sentient species will comply to human laws? What would happen if they mingled in with the human species?

The Socialist State of The Other Flame remains neutral, but in disfavor of the resolution.

Well i think we need to make the definitions more clear. it is not enuf that it can communicate, dogs nd cats can communicate but if they do sm crime can u put them to trial... no.

CLEARER DEFINITIONS.

Goodness, what a tirade. It certainly is illuminating of how terrible life must be for the people of The Third Spanish States having as they do such a judgemental and doctrinaire government. How grim must life be for them, to have no leaven of imagination, no mitigation of compassion or empathy, to be bound like slaves to the stultifying details of the coporeal here and now.

We suggest that the respected ambassador could do with a healthy dose of patience and understanding to help ease the passage of their days.

If a logical fallacy is how this argument is taken, perhaps it would be important to remind that Third Spanish States technically is an anarchy, and that I am here as a member of the DiploNet Public Relations Company who offers private PR services as a cooperative to the denizens of my nation.

I am a direct representative of the will of my people, and the people is the government, albeit a very decentralized one to the point it requires private public relations to unify all diverging opinions and economics of each city. With all respect, next time, like Aaron Paul would say, do your research first before throwing fallacious arguments to dismiss my claims about the irrelevancy of protecting Smurfs and garden gnomes.

I'm against it for a number of reasons.
(1) "Sentient" is ill-defined.
(2) Practically any animal with a nervous system might be called "sentient".
(3) What they really want is rights for "sapients"; -- that is, rights for beings who can think.
(4) That's too large a group for a nation to extend protection to.
(5) It's also too large a group for the WA to extend protection to.
(6) Not all humans are sapient. This act wouldn't really protect the rights of non-sapient humans; for instance it might put an AI or an adult chimp or elephant or dolphin above an infant human.
(7) Since not all sapients are human, the act doesn't take enough care to extend to them only those "human rights" which are in fact appropriate to all sapients, not also those that are appropriate only to humans.
(8) Finally the act pretty much switches between the words "sapient" and "sentient" carelessly throughout.
(9) And "sapient" is ill-defined too.

If a logical fallacy is how this argument is taken, perhaps it would be important to remind that Third Spanish States technically is an anarchy, and that I am here as a member of the DiploNet Public Relations Company who offers private PR services as a cooperative to the denizens of my nation.

I am a direct representative of the will of my people, and the people is the government, albeit a very decentralized one to the point it requires private public relations to unify all diverging opinions and economics of each city. With all respect, next time, like Aaron Paul would say, do your research first before throwing fallacious arguments to dismiss my claims about the irrelevancy of protecting Smurfs and garden gnomes.


The government of the emperor of Urgench imagines that the respected individual from the private concern which engages in public relations for the Thirde Spanish States derives great pleasure from their role as agitator, but this is a debate concerning the rights of sentient beings, the efficacy of the world assembly is hardly germaine.

If your nation is so contemptuous of the w.a. why have they wasted your time and ours in sending you here disrupt usefull and constructive debate?

What are your alternatives to the current use to which this organisation is put? where are your draft resolutions covering vital issues as you see them?

Since you are public relations expert we will ignore your lack of diplomatic skill and suggest that your people engage persons used to the conduct of international diplomacy to the task of dealing with the world assembly.

Again we remind you, patience, understanding and compassion are the hallmarks of civilised international relations. Where ever we have failed to use these virtues in our own work here we have encountered nothing but oposition and difficulty.

And as for the plight of talking bears and gnomes, we suggest you apply a very simple standard; do as you would be done by. Treat all with a basic level of respect regardless of who they claim to be and they will have no reason to treat you in any other way, without being contemptible.

Yours e.t.c. ,

welcome back, g l o g!

sara mavenu
UN rep
Thank you. Glog happy to be back.

non-human sentient beings do not exist!
Neanderthals human? Some people say no, only Homo Sapiens human. What about Glog people?


"Birds chirp so they are highly intelligent" .. They also fly into windows thinking there is nothing there..
Birds GOOD!!! Glog kill. Eat. What window? Bird catching machine?

Maybe Wencee people teach Glog people to make window. Kill many birds. Have feast.

This to me a pointless resolution.
This to Glog a good resolution.

"AHEM!"


(A bipedal Ursine, about eight feet tall and wearing full evening dress [including a top hat], walks across the room and looms over the Antipodesian ambassador...)
Glog sees the bear. He regards it with a mixture of caution and curiosity. He takes up his spear and begins trying to circle around behind the creature.

Strange. Bear wearing clothes. Talking. Bear Smart! Not like bears in Glog forest. Those bears not smart. Glog kill. Eat. Bear GOOD!!! Taste like pork.

This bear different. Maybe smarter than Glog. Hunt Glog and kill him. stuff full of onions and raisins, roast over fire. Have big Glog feast.

Maybe friendly though, like wolf Glog meet in bar once. Glog not know.


lol
What lol?

Cecily Lockhelm had to see it for herself, perhaps as a alway to confirm the will of her people, specially after their allies have broken off from the World Assembly following a train of laws which they considered ridiculous "Pinko-liberal collections of buzzwords". She never visited the World Assembly before, and was quite discrete amidst the crowd of diplomats and bureaucrats around. As she checked the law that was being proposed, she finally understood why Enclave City left the Assembly to become again a "rogue" nation, and hiding a sigh, she felt an urge of let it out of her throat. Leaving in silence would not satisfy her, and thus, as the first opportunity to speak came, the stranger did not feel threatened by the fact she was not a delegate, and hoped to convince those who were to do something that could perhaps serve as the first step to make the WA be taken seriously rather than as a joke in her own nation. And thus she stood, in her wise youth, and threw her calm, but critical speech:

On behalf of our independent allies of Enclave City (http://www.nationstates.net/07589/page=display_nation/nation=aec_enclave), whose head of State Ron Rothbard Rand has openly stated their utmost disappointment with how far this institution has fallen in its credibility, diving into a metaphorical pound of lunacy and veiled bigotry. In deference to the fact that there is virtually no scientific account of any non-human sentience in Earth, I would like to remind you all that an human being does not loses his status as an human being after he dresses in a fursuit, or after it acquires an schizophrenic belief he is no longer human, nor that a group of LARPers dressing as vampires simply ceases to be human only because those behaviors are considered strange for the mainstream society.

Therefore, this law, like appointed by the former representative of Enclave city, who resigned from visiting this Assembly for personal and rational reasons, is completely irrelevant for our times. It is nothing but a bureaucratic waste of time to secure rights of entities which do not exist, and makes as much sense as declaring human rights for the flying spaghetti monster and for the pink invisible unicorns. Finally, this assembly is an union of human nations in our current, modern era, no matter if collective insanity led a few anorexic individuals with Spock ears super-glued to their ears or fursuiters with their zippers melted think they are no longer human.

I wish we could have a word in this assembly, yet we consider the overall insanity and folly that permeates decisions like this a too high price to pay, specially on laws which override the right of sovereignty. Most of our citizens consider the World Assembly an irrelevant, comical and powerless institution ridden with pseudo-leftist single cause liberals, and others wish for it to simply dissolve so it "no longer will waste valuable resources in its futile, useless goals, nor the time and creativity of great men into insane discussions." We consider the preservation of our inner sovereignty worthy of the sacrifice of not having the chance to engage into an herculean effort to ensure futile proposals like this are not approved, and following coercive laws which have broken the right-wing libertarian principles of Enclave City, they have taken the same choice.

In a previous interview poll, 89% of the Enclave citizens claim that they do not regret the decision of cutting all ties with World Assembly. Following this new proposal, a new research was conducted with polls and interviews, where 96% now consider the cut of all ties with this institution "a completely logical, sound decision that reinforces the sovereignty and reputation of Enclave as one of the few modern city-States of the world". And I have to fully agree with them, after witnessing this act of disrespect to common sense and logical reasoning. I truly hope that those among the World Assembly with a modicum of common sense can dismiss such absurdity completely irrelevant to our modern times, for Furries, Vampire LARPers and Trekkies, among others of those who would supposedly be benefited by this law are just human beings with non-mainstream interests and tastes, which makes this law as bigoted as a law which would grant "rights for black-skinned non-human sentient beings".
Glog takes an antelope bone out of his bag and beats the ambassador from Third Spanish States soundly about the head and upper torso.

it is not enuf that it can communicate, dogs nd cats can communicate but if they do sm crime can u put them to trial... no.
What this language? Not English.

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

Those delegations who insist on claiming that humans are the only sentient (or sapient) beings in existence amuse us greatly. Perhaps in your nation or segment of the multiverse, humans are the only sentient beings. That is not true everywhere in the NS multiverse by a long shot. Do your research before talking about (or voting on) something.

The Trilateral Federation is pleased to support this resolution.

-Irina Misheli, Deputy Ambassador

Is it just me or is this really silly? non-human sentient beings do not exist! the closest you get is q chimpanzee or a dolphin! IF extra-terrestrials with an equal or greater intellegence to us are found then by allmeqns Antipodesia would sign this resoultion, HOWEVER we refuse to sign a resolution that would effectively be null and void as it covers things that do not exist. We would however back any bill that looked for the international protection of highly intellegent non-human animals such as great apes, dolphins, and sea eagles (our national bird)

One of the frolicing dolphins swims over to the waterproof mike and says,
"just who the <censored><bad word><filthy oath> are you calling<foul word><bleep> unintellegent, you <explitive deleted>! Take a <bleeping><bleep> look around these<gross explitive> halls! The WA has <censored> neandrathals, <bleeping> catgirls, <very naughtly word>gnomes, and even <bleeping> Kennyites as members!:tongue: The <anatomically impossible Act> WA is not just for<foul><filth><foul>humans anymore!

Also the <very gross explitive> Palentine is abso<bleeping>lutely FOR this <vile explitive> resolution.

"We are terribly sorry that Ms. Lockhelm had to come all this way for no apparent reason. Please accept this voucher to the Strangers' Bar as a small compensation for your needless journey. Have a free drink on us."

Yeah, and maybe get eaten by that smelly talking dragon that still lurks in the shadows, Shemp thought scornfully to himself, or at least be harassed on the way by a surly OBM gnome about outstanding "user fees." "No scientific account for non-human sentience," indeed!

"Turning to more relevant comments, we are as always amazed by the Glogian representative's simple yet enduring wisdom, surpassing that of most members of this assembly. As a token of our appreciation, here is a badger carcass some Kennyites were poking at with a stick earlier in the parking lot (then gave to me, for some reason, thinking I'd be impressed or something). It's roadkill, not much, but hopefully you can salvage a snack out of it."

I think while other sapient life forms are nonexistent, this is an useless resolution.
Just should be studied again only if the case mentioned before occurs.

As a non-human sapient being (although the only of my kind in my nation's government) I understand the need for a resolution protecting sapient beings.

I understand, also, our neighbor Palentine's observation that many of the military operations of nations, especially those in our home region of Antarctic Oasis, are carried out by what could be considered sentient beings. In Palentine's case, dolphins. In the case of a Thundrmuffn member state, Icekliff, penguins have been deployed as border patrol. In other nations, clones may not have been protected until this resolution, but are now. Some nations' entire military is based on clones in order to not require casualties from any "original" humans/sapients. This could be seen, depending on your ethical viewpoint, as a noble and practical use of man-made sentient beings in order to save "natural/original" sentients/sapients lives.

I applaud the resolution's clause allowing individual nations to determine which races are protected as sentient/sapient. In the case of those AO or other nations whose militaries are partially or entirely compulsory and sentient-based, said nations could choose to list the dolphins or penguins or clones as non-sentient-rights protected, and then let the individual sovereign governments' appeal systems decide the issue for themselves. If the people or courts of Palentine, for example, disagree with their governments assessment of dolphins as non-sentient, then whatever local appeal processess are in place in Palentine to challenge that assessment may be employed. This resolution allows that assessment remain in the hands of the sovereign states and, if necessary, their appeal processes.

So it is with some reservation that the Allied States of Thundrmuffn support this resolution, acknowledging each nationstate's right to assess its inhabitant races and declare which are protected under the definitions set forth in this resolution, and which are not. As a non-human sapient, I applaud the motivation and intent of this resolution and hope to see it passed, understanding that it imposes some immediate action by member nations to declare their interpretation and application of the definitions of sapient/sentient races therein.

To set an example, the Allied States of Thundrmuffin declare the following races inhabiting our lands as sapient:
Humans (original/natural, cloned, or otherwise)
Elfkin, whether living or waiting for re-animation (including, but not limited to, the race of His Excellency the Holy Ambassador Ambsequi Re, who was re-animated from a frozen prison of ice, although no other elfkin have been discovered to date in the realm of Thundrmuffn)

Likewise, the A.S.T. declares the following races protected as sentient:
Troglodytes (those bipedal sentient beings inhabiting the remotest of locales)
Trolls

The A.S.T. desires to point out that it does not acknowledge the following species as sentient (this list is for emphasis and is by no means meant to be comprehensive):
Military penguins or any penguins of any level of supposed intelligence
Military dolphins or any dolphins of any level of supposed intelligence
Bears considered less than sapient by their native nations

Signed,
His Excellency Ambsequi Re, Holy Ambassador to Nations
The Allied States of Thundrmuffn
by the authority of His Holy Majesty Graem Thudn, High King of the Council; His Excellency Faik Itkska, Grand Chancellor of the Law; His Honor Darius Dssi, Holy Judge of the Order; and the rest of the esteemed members of the Holy Order of the Bison.

It is ridiculous to be trying to enact laws that have no real world application. Unless the delegate can present evidence of any sentient creature other than man on this planet (and since this simulated world is supposed to mirror our own which has not produced said evidence), this is a useless and irrelevant law that does nothing but turn the World Assembly into a mockery. How is anyone to take the WA seriously if one of the only things it has seen fit to rule on are the rights of beings that could theoretically exist?

Shall we pass legislation on the rights of deities? Or perhaps a new property rights bill to address the possibility of every continent on the planet randomly turning into lime jell-o? How about tariffs on trans-dimensional travel and clarification of the legal status of time travelers?

If a logical fallacy is how this argument is taken, perhaps it would be important to remind that Third Spanish States technically is an anarchy, and that I am here as a member of the DiploNet Public Relations Company who offers private PR services as a cooperative to the denizens of my nation.

I am a direct representative of the will of my people, and the people is the government, albeit a very decentralized one to the point it requires private public relations to unify all diverging opinions and economics of each city. With all respect, next time, like Aaron Paul would say, do your research first before throwing fallacious arguments to dismiss my claims about the irrelevancy of protecting Smurfs and garden gnomes.

A tanned Pacific Islander stood suddenly, eyes glinting with resolve.

My name is Darvek, Your Excellency, and I'm from Krioval. My lady, if what you're saying is true, then your company must be really, really hard up for business. Dear Gods above, there was a time when the paleskins thought that we weren't really "human". Of course, this resolution would take care of some of the still omnipresent bigotry, but I can hardly fault "your people" for their inability to see past their own circumstances if people like you are running the show, however much you may claim to simply represent their values. And it's pretty silly to criticize the World Assembly when you aren't even a member.

In closing, I really didn't need to know about the strange sexual proclivities of the people of Third Spanish States in your earlier screed, especially seeing as how it is hardly germane to the issue before the Assembly today. Krioval supports this resolution.

It is ridiculous to be trying to enact laws that have no real world application. Unless the delegate can present evidence of any sentient creature other than man on this planet (and since this simulated world is supposed to mirror our own which has not produced said evidence), this is a useless and irrelevant law that does nothing but turn the World Assembly into a mockery. How is anyone to take the WA seriously if one of the only things it has seen fit to rule on are the rights of beings that could theoretically exist?

Shall we pass legislation on the rights of deities? Or perhaps a new property rights bill to address the possibility of every continent on the planet randomly turning into lime jell-o? How about tariffs on trans-dimensional travel and clarification of the legal status of time travelers?

The good but slightly unwholesome Senator Sulla walks over to his desk(overshaded by the large aquarium). He is smoking a cigar that almost seems to be the size of a large kosher salami. Taking the cigar out of his mouth for a second, he gives a puzzled look over at the delegate from the Candor.

"Just what is this 'real life', you're talking about?", the Senator asks.

"As Far as I know we are the only beings that exist. This 'real life' you speak is some mythological land. Anyway, I'm off now. I've been invited to play some Twister with some Catgirls with loose and questionable morals."

I think while other sapient life forms are nonexistent, this is an useless resolution.
Just should be studied again only if the case mentioned before occurs.

"I'll tell you mate, Its a good thing the Ausserlander Delegation isn't here to hear you say that. Their dwarven ambassador would kneecap you with his axe for a remark like that."

There are nations peopled with talking Bears, Foxes, Dolphins, and numerous other creatures some mythical and legendary. Currently the W.A. 's protection of rights, civil and personal only applies to humans this is manifestly unfair. This excellent resolution will rectify that situation and ensure full protection of the rights of all the citizens of all it's member nations.

yours e.t.c. ,


There are? I was unaware I thought they were all human.. wait yes they are lol... My region votes no to clutter resolution.

"At least I'll have more jokes about the WC... WA, that never gets old", she thought, leaving her seat with a deep sigh. Cecily headed all her way out of the World Assembly. She wondered if they spiffed her drink with some sort of drug, but the entire experience seemed completely surreal. The club with the writing "IGNORE" she whacked Glog with, and the rants and insane visions of humanoid freaks. She wondered what sort of acid trip she entered into.

And forgotten. At the time she embarked on a plane back to the Confederacy, she suddenly opened her eyes, and noticed she was in her bed. What a weird, bizarre dream.
On the news, she finally saw something... "UN condemns Confederacy war against Spain". Sighing, she looked to herself and laughed:

"I was a fool to ever consider this World Assembly real".

Then she reminded the last moment of the dream, when she dropped a large suitcase into the congress she saw in her dreams, which like the club, was also inscribed by the word "IGNORE". She simply shrugged at the thought, and headed through the Earth she always knew. An Earth where there was no exceptions to the fact man was the sole sapient. An Earth where the World Assembly was little more than a satire of a certain international organization.

That until she opened a briefcase, and saw a ticket indicating a travel to "World Assembly" after she got herself dressed for another day of work. Nothing made sense, until she finally arrived at the outside, where her friends shouted:

"Happy April Fool's Day Cecily!"

"I'll tell you mate, Its a good thing the Ausserlander Delegation isn't here to hear you say that. Their dwarven ambassador would kneecap you with his axe for a remark like that."

That dwarven ambassador must understand, we can not make laws 'in case of' hypothetical causes.

If it doesn't, my hammer is very persuasive, I'll let it talk to it.

The second common mistake is to put forth a proposal which is not entirely within the NationStates world. WA proposals cannot address the rules or mechanics of the game, nor can they ask for new features.

Surely the addition of fictional races should be considered "not entirely within the NationStates world" as it would address the rules/mechanics of the game by introducing fictional races into the world. The assumption that nations can declare the existence of non-human races within their borders would radically alter the game's dynamics.

As a token of our appreciation, here is a badger carcass some Kennyites were poking at with a stick earlier in the parking lot (then gave to me, for some reason, thinking I'd be impressed or something). It's roadkill, not much, but hopefully you can salvage a snack out of it."
Glog takes the badger carcass. He sniffs it and then drags it behind a nearby desk where he rolls around on it several times, sniffs it some more, and decides it is food.

He raises up, his mouth half full of badger entrails and says:

SchutteGod people GOOD!!! Give Glog snack!

Then goes back to eating.

Surely the addition of fictional races should be considered "not entirely within the NationStates world" as it would address the rules/mechanics of the game by introducing fictional races into the world. The assumption that nations can declare the existence of non-human races within their borders would radically alter the game's dynamics.


We are a nation of Human beings, however we live to be 250 to 300 years old, we have certain sensory and intellectual advantages over our distant
21st century ancestors, are we non-human? are we a breach of N.S. rules? Since you seem to have such comprehensive understanding of such things we would be glad of the elucidation?


yours e.t.c.

The club with the writing "IGNORE" she whacked Glog with...
The hall is momentarily filled with the strains of Ian Dury's "Hit me with your rhythm stick". Glog reels under the blows from the IGNORE club. He does a silly little dance, stumbles once, then falls over.....dead.....




























...well, maybe not exactly dead, but certainly not in his right mind either. You see, up until this very moment Glog has never been beaten with a club by a woman before. In Glog's world men do the clubbing.

Glog is impressed!

He walks up to Ms. Lockhelm with a goofy smile on his face.

Lockhelm woman STRONG!!! Knock Glog out with club. Woman have much energy, able to have many babies. Carry much firewood. Take care of crops. Clean cave. Wash Glog clothes. Cook food for Glog. Break rocks. Stack rocks. Raise Glog children.

Lockhelm woman come live in cave with Glog. Be Glog's woman.

Make sammich for Glog!

Woman! Fix me a sammich!

Surely the addition of fictional races should be considered "not entirely within the NationStates world" as it would address the rules/mechanics of the game by introducing fictional races into the world. The assumption that nations can declare the existence of non-human races within their borders would radically alter the game's dynamics.

OOC: That is frankly one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever seen on here. "Introducing fictional races" is not a game mechanics or rules violation. If it was, 2/3 of the nations in NS would've been kicked out long ago, if not more. It's called creativity. Perhaps you could use a dose or three.

IC: Your arguments still don't address the value or viability of this resolution in any way. Does it do what it sets out to do? That should be the question. It's one you have not addressed, and we maintain that it does.

-Irina Misheli etc.

(OOC: T'was a joke, as per "April Fools Day" mention. I just don't do WA and hoped to stir things up ICly in a not-so-serious manner in the hopes to draw some comedic relief. That's it, I'm not really ignoring anyone. Although beating someone in the head without giving any chance of reply is technically a godmod.

It's called creativity. Perhaps you could use a dose.

If you invent your own species from "scratch", then yes... now if you just rip off an Internet fad or fiction work... although nevermind, that's another subject)

(O.O.C. wow well your sophisticated and subtle comedy seems to have gone right over khan Mongkha's head, he was genuinely quite shocked. Still Kudos on the sense of Humour.)

Mais je vous assure, :eek: ils sont fous ces bureaucrates de la WA... comme dirait Obelix.

This has to be one of the most useless pieces of legislation I've ever seen.

Such a law cannot be enforced by the WA nor will it achieve anything in NationStates. All it is is clutter legislation to make some people feel good.

No.

Besides that it cannot be easily enforced, would be a waste of money for nations who undertake it, this diplomat finds a problem with the part of the legislation protecting creatures determined sentient.

If we can not hunt and/or slaughter animals that are aware of their existence for food, what will we eat? Will our nations exist on an entirely vegetarian diet? Doesn't that break some sort of law?

Just another sign of the decline of NS and the WA sigh~

Just another sign of the decline of NS and the WA sigh~

Out of curiosity, if the WA is declining, could you please point me to the peak of the WA and say "here were the glory days, days when the WA was perfect and wondrous, and without any fault whatsoever"? That would be useful in verifying your claim of "another sign" of WA decline. To me, it seems that certain representatives have an inordinately rosy view of the past, sort of like how some Kriovalian traditionalists seem to forget that, in the "good old days", ritual sacrifice was the norm.

~ Chief Darvek Tyvok, of Krioval

Mais je vous assure, :eek: ils sont fous ces bureaucrates de la WA... comme dirait Obelix.
Ich nicht verstehen sie! Sprechen Sie Englisch!!!

I am astonished!

But that is something that happens a lot.

But still. What is the problem. If there are none, null or zero intelligent species in your nation, nothing will change. But, as we could know, there are gnomes, SF species (and the so nice G l o g) so what proof you need. OK, if there are not inside your nation, nothing to worry.

And let us be prepared, if it will ever happen, we don't know, but they can come from the stars, or from our own species (due to radiation?) for intelligently life outside humans.

What is the big problem? In this proposal not so much bureaucracy. Only accepting, if there is, other intelligent life, the same rights as we humans do.

Regards,

Ich nicht verstehen sie! Sprechen Sie Englisch!!!

Sorry G l o g. I cannot understand good English nor French.
But I think it says: But I assure you, it are the bureaucrats of the WA, like Obelix (a big friend of Asterix) said.

Please do not crush the one who brings this message.

Greetings

Just another sign of the decline of NS and the WA sigh~


O.O.C. Ok Wencee i don't make out of character comments in this forum very often but all i've read from you is bitching and moaning and it's getting on my tits now. I don't know much about you, i haven't checked what region your from or if you've actually been a member for years or anything like that so forgive me if i make a gaff.

Why don't you come up with something for once ( something half decent that is ) instead of rubbishing other peoples work? I spent several hours of my life the other day sending hundreds of tg to delegates and have spent lots of time on my resolution. Having done so i am quite aware of exactly how much work it takes to write and get a resolution voted on, forgive me if i'm wrong but have you any insight in to this process? i don't see any resolutions with your name attached around here. By all means correct me on this point.

Like Krioval said, what glory days are you talking about? and why aren't you interested in making the here and now a more interesting and positive place to be in? maybe you should criticise other peoples work less and put more energy into creative and worthwhile enterprise around here and maybe you could be the one to halt this mythical down ward pitch you think the w.a. is on.

Mais je vous assure, :eek: ils sont fous ces bureaucrates de la WA... comme dirait Obelix.


As Obelix said, "But I assure you, these WA bureaucrats are mad..." that's my translation, anyways...

Obelix said, "These Romans are crazy" -- now he's trying to switch it around on us. (No, I don't know much about French geek culture; I had to look it up.)

I spent several hours of my life the other day sending hundreds of tg to delegates I know; the time required for campaigning for proposals has really gone down, hasn't it? :p

And don't worry about the "NS is declining" bozo. To hear the old-timers tell it, NS has been "in decline" since 2003. :rolleyes:

O.O.C. Ok Wencee i don't make out of character comments in this forum very often but all i've read from you is bitching and moaning and it's getting on my tits now. I don't know much about you, i haven't checked what region your from or if you've actually been a member for years or anything like that so forgive me if i make a gaff.

Why don't you come up with something for once ( something half decent that is ) instead of rubbishing other peoples work? I spent several hours of my life the other day sending hundreds of tg to delegates and have spent lots of time on my resolution. Having done so i am quite aware of exactly how much work it takes to write and get a resolution voted on, forgive me if i'm wrong but have you any insight in to this process? i don't see any resolutions with your name attached around here. By all means correct me on this point.

Like Krioval said, what glory days are you talking about? and why aren't you interested in making the here and now a more interesting and positive place to be in? maybe you should criticise other peoples work less and put more energy into creative and worthwhile enterprise around here and maybe you could be the one to halt this mythical down ward pitch you think the w.a. is on.

Oh I have played off and on since 2004, Nor to be frank do I really care what you have to say about me or my character. And you know it seems only the original supporters of this resolution still support it in this forum. Just posting.. And forgive me yet again, And I Criticize* other peoples 'work' if you call this *waves hand in motion at the current resolution and the next one on Nomads* Work. It's more like people just passing things for the sake of passing them, and people vote for things that have either good titles or because they like to be 'apart' of passing things. yet this bill Votes For: 983
Votes Against: 753 - surprisingly close for a change. I Criticize, what should be spoken to. Maybe you should try to do some yourself.. And not just to those who disagree with your friends bills. As for knowing the process I know it well- but I doubt highly you will find much to my name in the WA or to anyones really. Or many of my older names.


And don't worry about the "NS is declining" bozo. To hear the old-timers tell it, NS has been "in decline" since 2003. :rolleyes:



Bozo indeed, at least I can spell and think for myself. To say it isn't declining is to be blind- People are simply waiting for NS2 and then this will flicker like a candle and simply go out.

I have no problem with sapient rights, and would heartily endorse this if that was all this proposal covered.

But preventing the hunting and or slaughter of sentient animals? That I take issue with.

Well ok. The only sentient beings in Hergensberg (as I am sure that this is in other parts of the world) is 1. Humans, 2. Dolphins 3. Elephants 4. Orangutans 5. Chimpanzees. Being sentient just means that a creature is aware of itself. The test for being sentient is simple. Put a mirror infront of yourself. If you see something in the mirror and then realize it's you, congrats you are sentient. However, if you just think there is a funny looking thing there, then you are not. Only the aforementioned species have actually passed that test. I don't know the specific's of it, I only know what I read in a magazine. And secondly. Man, you used the most confusingly worded language EVER. It took me like two minutes just to figure out the first 10 lines.

There are nations peopled with talking Bears, Foxes, Dolphins, and numerous other creatures some mythical and legendary. Currently the W.A. 's protection of rights, civil and personal only applies to humans this is manifestly unfair. This excellent resolution will rectify that situation and ensure full protection of the rights of all the citizens of all it's member nations.

yours e.t.c. ,

Do you have any idea how delicious talking bears are? As leader of the Republic of Pious Piety I will not agree to a law that will cripple our food industry and starve our people at the same time. Besides, many everyday products are made from sentient creatures. Are you even aware that you need to grind up three whole pixies just to get a handful of pixie dust? I vote no

Well ok. The only sentient beings in Hergensberg (as I am sure that this is in other parts of the world) is 1. Humans, 2. Dolphins 3. Elephants 4. Orangutans 5. Chimpanzees. Being sentient just means that a creature is aware of itself. The test for being sentient is simple. Put a mirror infront of yourself. If you see something in the mirror and then realize it's you, congrats you are sentient. However, if you just think there is a funny looking thing there, then you are not. Only the aforementioned species have actually passed that test. I don't know the specific's of it, I only know what I read in a magazine.

I take issue with that test. You'd have a hard time telling me that any animal that runs around in the great Wildlands of Opusau is not aware of it's existence, but none of them have ever encountered a mirror before. When confronted with something totally unnatural, like a mirror, natural instinct does not know how to react, only that it must react, and does so in the best way possible, which usually is how an animal would react if it met another of it's species.

OOC: That is frankly one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever seen on here. "Introducing fictional races" is not a game mechanics or rules violation. If it was, 2/3 of the nations in NS would've been kicked out long ago, if not more. It's called creativity. Perhaps you could use a dose or three.

IC: Your arguments still don't address the value or viability of this resolution in any way. Does it do what it sets out to do? That should be the question. It's one you have not addressed, and we maintain that it does.

-Irina Misheli etc.

Gee, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had wondered into the FanficNation forums. I thought this was a game about nation-states addressing problems similar to those faced by sovereign nations in a world mirroring the one we live in. You want to be creative, great. I write on the side. I enjoy RPGs. But when I'm playing a game that asks me how I would address striking uranium miners, sexual equality, immigration, and so forth...I don't ask myself whether the miners are humans or dwarves, whether interspecies laws would apply to elf/human combinations in addition to human/animal combinations, whether the immigrants are ogres or vampires, etc., etc.

Putting the game in a fantasy element could potentially impact any future WA proposal. After all, anyone can just make up their own new race of creatures that would be uniquely impacted by a new law in ways that would never come up with humans. Effectively the allowance or disallowance of this law decides whether this is a game about addressing political issues or making up a fanciful world of magic.

As for the effectiveness of the law, it's too vague. Self awareness could be applied to any species that displays something resembling fear because that indicates the members of the species recognize their own being as something to be protected. A squirrel could thus be declared sentient because the wording states that the being must be able to "perceive consciousness or self-awareness".

Well said indeed Candor, very well put.

This proposal is absurd. This proposal is suggesting that since a chimpanzee is capable of rational thought that we should treat it as human. What would we do if a chimpanzee killed another chimpanzee from another group, which they have a tendency to do; are we supposed to through in jail. This would cause exceptional economic strain as well. If a chimpanzee injures itself and can’t gather food are we supposed to give it disability checks? This would be a huge expense for taxpayers because, last time I check, monkeys don’t pay taxes. So I think my point is clear that this proposal should be shot down.

After all, anyone can just make up their own new race of creatures that would be uniquely impacted by a new law in ways that would never come up with humans.Actually, this makes sure they don't have to. You don't know how many times someone will introduce a Human Rights proposal, and some bozo will ask, Well what about the talking beavers? This is partly a way to guarantee rights to species historically denied them, partly a way to get the proponents of said rights to shut the hell up.

As for the effectiveness of the law, it's too vague. Self awareness could be applied to any species that displays something resembling fear because that indicates the members of the species recognize their own being as something to be protected. A squirrel could thus be declared sentient because the wording states that the being must be able to "perceive consciousness or self-awareness".Good thing the nations make their own determinations on sentience then. Or did you miss that part?

This proposal is absurd. This proposal is suggesting that since a chimpanzee is capable of rational thought that we should treat it as human. What would we do if a chimpanzee killed another chimpanzee from another group, which they have a tendency to do; are we supposed to through in jail. This would cause exceptional economic strain as well. If a chimpanzee injures itself and can’t gather food are we supposed to give it disability checks? This would be a huge expense for taxpayers because, last time I check, monkeys don’t pay taxes. So I think my point is clear that this proposal should be shot down.This is where "reasonable nation" theory kicks in. Obviously, nations that can't read or comprehend such issues are exempt. And it looks like you qualify! Ain't that lucky?

The stench of her spittle as it dampened those sitting near her wasn't nearly as disturbing as the sight of the giant arachnid. Heaving her bloated body up on the box near her, Shelob hissed and chuffed her message to the delegates.

Szchuttegoddz people tletez. Honorz them yessz. Thisz kltntz law ... likesz yessz. Visitz maybe when timez right. Comesz not hungry; won't havesz to feeddz old Shelobz. Tlztk.

What the hell are you speaking here about...? Is the WA crazy? Do not exist any other pressing questions than this nonsense...? Even as a joke it is a very bad one.Rightz for allz importantz. Too importantz usz listenz to silly bagz-over-headerz.

In deference to the fact that there is virtually no scientific account of any non-human sentience in Earth, I would like to remind you all that an human being does not loses his status as an human being after he dresses in a fursuit, or after it acquires an schizophrenic belief he is no longer human, nor that a group of LARPers dressing as vampires simply ceases to be human only because those behaviors are considered strange for the mainstream society.

Therefore, this law...is nothing but a bureaucratic waste of time to secure rights of entities which do not exist Tzlack tzer hcksz. Old Shelobsz szo gladz thiz Earth existsz not. Soundsz tazty. If exiztedz it didz, would visitz we wouldz. And eatszzz.

Well i think we need to make the definitions more clear. it is not enuf that it can communicate, dogs nd cats can communicate but if they do sm crime can u put them to trial... no.

CLEARER DEFINITIONS.Spellz not goodz us. Mandiblez not workz samesz. Youssz szentienz you saysz? Notz communicatesz very wellz.

That dwarven ambassador must understand, we can not make laws 'in case of' hypothetical causes.Realz we arez yessz.... no hypotheticalsz.

Just another sign of the decline of NS and the WA sigh~Yessz, assz issz Wencee preszenze herez. Goez awaysz yousz yessz if yousz no likesz herez.

Regaining her seat, the spider stared intelligently, if malevolently, at a number of the delegates in attendance.

Good thing the nations make their own determinations on sentience then. Or did you miss that part?

Actually, the resolutions defines sentience as self-awareness.

Thank you for telling me what my own resolution says. It defines sentience and sapience as "mere guidelines" -- to quote Captain Barbossa -- but in the end allows nations to make their own determinations, provided that they're fair.

Care to point out where it says these things in your proposal?

Actually, this makes sure they don't have to. You don't know how many times someone will introduce a Human Rights proposal, and some bozo will ask, Well what about the talking beavers? This is partly a way to guarantee rights to species historically denied them, partly a way to get the proponents of said rights to shut the hell up.

Good thing the nations make their own determinations on sentience then. Or did you miss that part?

I got that part, but then someone tries to pass a law banning murder...but what about the sentient black widows of my nation? Killing one's mate is a natural part of their mating process. Protection of children's rights? Well, you set an age for maturity, and I argue my egg-laying avian race naturally leaves its children to the wild. If these races exist, exceptionalism is pretty much necessary.

This is an impossible bill! There is no way you could make a law defending all sentient creatures. The idea is ludicrous! Think about all those spiders you've killed with the Sunday newspaper, is it worth going to jail for? Now if the part of the bill protecting sentient creatures was omitted it would be something to work with. And because of the impossibilities of this bill Snaked Dancer Shaman of Toxotic voted the bill not to pass. Keep trying though, revise the bill, make it work!

Also, why only bios? Silicone or soft, easily punctured flesh, it makes no difference, they're both sapient.

My tenure in this Assembly has been short, but I am experienced enough in the records of my predecessors and their governments to know well the history of the World Assembly and its dearly departed propagator. The extremes of ridiculous debate and argument that have been had over this subject have always resulted in shouting, namecalling, accusations of bias and, in some cases, nights of passion and an awkward morning-after.

And yes, I do have your trousers, Shemp.

This resolution, however, takes the golden nuggets of corn from the crap of the past and delicately roasts them, until they pop with warm happiness to be covered in butter and salt. This succeeds, almost to perfection, where the other wanks, wonks, and morons have failed.

I will be glad, when this finally passes, to see the protection of humans extended to all thinking beings. How soon do we forget the senseless slaughter, let alone the stench, of the sentient whales during the repeal of Banning Whaling? Had we protected sentience then, Building Management wouldn't have had to spend three weeks cleaning the assembly of the decaying remains of the First Singer.

My only fear lies in the recognition of Yeldan Destructor Bunnies a form of sapience, and their release from servitude to wreak havoc upon all existence.

Let us go forward then, and welcome with human compassion all manner of thinking apes, crabs, whales, six-armed humanoid insects, cat-people, aliens, xenomorphs, crystalline entities, Bahgumians (for they can hardly be considered sapient... have you smelled Sir Albert lately?), talking elephants, anthropomorphic refrigerator slimes, Kennyites, invisible tree people, viruses, and delicious, delicious dolphins into the ranks of official sapient species, afforded all the protections therein. Especially the Kennyites- they've had a rought lot and deserve some help.

Wens Foroun
Symposium Subjugant

Gee, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had wondered into the FanficNation forums. I thought this was a game about nation-states addressing problems similar to those faced by sovereign nations in a world mirroring the one we live in.

No one, frankly, could care less about where you thought you wandered into. The fact is that you wandered into a place where sentient beings other than humans do exist. Your inability to accept that fact doesn't change that fact, nor does it have any relevance to this resolution or its merits.

You want to be creative, great. I write on the side. I enjoy RPGs. But when I'm playing a game that asks me how I would address striking uranium miners, sexual equality, immigration, and so forth...I don't ask myself whether the miners are humans or dwarves, whether interspecies laws would apply to elf/human combinations in addition to human/animal combinations, whether the immigrants are ogres or vampires, etc., etc.

Again, your inability to accept the existence of multiple species and races in this world doesn't change the fact that they do in fact exist here, and most likely existed here long before you showed up. Nor does it have any relevance to the resolution at all.

Putting the game in a fantasy element could potentially impact any future WA proposal. After all, anyone can just make up their own new race of creatures that would be uniquely impacted by a new law in ways that would never come up with humans. Effectively the allowance or disallowance of this law decides whether this is a game about addressing political issues or making up a fanciful world of magic.

Utter nonsense. If that was even remotely true, such an issue would've come up already. There's been a WA for some time now, and a UN for years before the WA. There have been other races and species in this world that whole time, and our delegation is not aware of any negative effect whatsoever that was caused by those facts. What your complaints are effectively about is the fact that you don't like the existence of other sentient races and species in this world, and want to shoot down this resolution to make things how you like them. That's a pathetic reason for opposition, frankly.

As for the effectiveness of the law, it's too vague. Self awareness could be applied to any species that displays something resembling fear because that indicates the members of the species recognize their own being as something to be protected. A squirrel could thus be declared sentient because the wording states that the being must be able to "perceive consciousness or self-awareness".

The representative from SchutteGod has already addressed this claim. Perhaps he'll be willing to do so with you again. If you ask him nicely, he may even use small words, spoken slowly to your delegation, so that you are more clear on this resolution.

Irina Misheli, etc.

Your beef with the representative from The Candor seems personnel; perhaps you should take it outside? I know a man who can hook you up with flintlock pistols for an old timey duel to the death. Just say the word.

My beef is that no where in the proposal presented by the honorable representative from SchutteGod can I find anything along the lines of "It defines sentience and sapience as 'mere guidelines' -- to quote Captain Barbossa -- but in the end allows nations to make their own determinations, provided that they're fair."

My beef is that no where in the honorable representative from SchutteGod can I find anything along the lines of "It defines sentience and sapience as 'mere guidelines'

Glog is astounded.

What this? You look inside SchutteGod person?

Glog examines the representative from SchutteGod for recent cuts and incisions.

Glog not see hole in SchutteGod person. Glog think you lie. Not look inside him at all.

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

Thank you Glog Firemaker. I meant the proposal presented before us. Glog, may I ask you a question? What if you couldn't hunt whatever it is you hunt anymore, but instead had to only eat berries? How would that make you feel?

I got that part, but then someone tries to pass a law banning murder...but what about the sentient black widows of my nation? Killing one's mate is a natural part of their mating process. Protection of children's rights? Well, you set an age for maturity, and I argue my egg-laying avian race naturally leaves its children to the wild. If these races exist, exceptionalism is pretty much necessary.Thank you for that, the last word is key. It requires nations to take "necessary and prudent" measures to prevent harm to sentient beings. Obviously, if it is not "necessary and prudent" to ban the killing of mates by queen spiders, nations need not do it. And this is yet another illustration for this legislation's importance. It greatly reduces the likelihood and effectiveness of species-wank in legislative debates.

Care to point out where it says these things in your proposal?Precisely where it says them, I imagine.

(The Candor got it; perhaps you two can compare notes?)

Your beef with the representative from The Candor seems personnel; perhaps you should take it outside? I know a man who can hook you up with flintlock pistols for an old timey duel to the death. Just say the word.

My beef is that no where in the proposal presented by the honorable representative from SchutteGod can I find anything along the lines of "It defines sentience and sapience as 'mere guidelines' -- to quote Captain Barbossa -- but in the end allows nations to make their own determinations, provided that they're fair."

Declares that member nations shall determine which biological species residing in their own borders possess sentient or sapient qualities, provided that the process involved is fair and even-handed and excludes potential conflicts of interest, that all available valid and confirmed scientific evidence is taken into account, and that denials of sentient or sapient status can be appealed to a higher, disinterested official or body within the government;

My, don't you feel silly now?

W.F.
etc.

My beef is that no where in the proposal presented by the honorable representative from SchutteGod can I find anything along the lines of "It defines sentience and sapience as 'mere guidelines' -- to quote Captain Barbossa -- but in the end allows nations to make their own determinations, provided that they're fair."

*seriously this time*

Declares that member nations shall determine which biological species residing in their own borders possess sentient or sapient qualities...

Indicates that the definitions are guidelines and that member nations will make the final determination on declaring species sentient or sapient.

...provided that the process involved is fair and even-handed...

There's your "fair".

Glog, may I ask you a question? What if you couldn't hunt whatever it is you hunt anymore, but instead had to only eat berries? How would that make you feel?
How this happen? Glog not hunt talking bears, only regular bears. Regular bears not sapient or sentient. Glog people only sapient or sentient thing in Glog land. Talking bears not live in Glog forest. No talking lion, deer, moose or squirrel there either. These things found in other lands, not Glog land. Glog not hunt them.

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

First off, the fact that Glog can eat a swan does not mean he is rational, much less that he knows he exists.

How can you prove something knows it exists? There is a disease (Can't think of the name right now) in which people honestly believe they don't exist. If this passes, I can take away their rights, yes?

Who can give an example of a non-human sapiant? As soon as I see non-human sapients getting their rights taken away, this law might be necessary. Until then, it is just a way for some dude to say he proposed something on the WA.

First off, the fact that Glog can eat a swan does not mean he is rational, much less that he knows he exists.

How can you prove something knows it exists? There is a disease (Can't think of the name right now) in which people honestly believe they don't exist. If this passes, I can take away their rights, yes?

Who can give an example of a non-human sapiant? As soon as I see non-human sapients getting their rights taken away, this law might be necessary. Until then, it is just a way for some dude to say he proposed something on the WA.

Let me break this down: philosphical bullshit... misconstruction of Hume... allegations unsupported by citations... red herring... ah, the Assembly doesn't let us down, does it?

Do you have any objections based in fact, or are you just making things up now?

W.F.
etc.

No one, frankly, could care less about where you thought you wandered into. The fact is that you wandered into a place where sentient beings other than humans do exist. Your inability to accept that fact doesn't change that fact, nor does it have any relevance to this resolution or its merits.

How can it not have anything to do with the merits of the argument? The basic problem here is that imaginary creatures are just that: imaginary. They don't exist. The issues that arise in the nations do not indicate their existence even when their presence would be a variable that could not be ignored. Just because leaders of the nation-states claim they exist doesn't mean they do. That is the salient point here. If a leader can say that any kind of creature exists within his realm, the WA member states cannot operate on any commonly held assumptions even about something as simple as what constitutes intelligent life on this planet.

You say these races exist. I say based on actual observation of the natural world that they do not. Science supports the premise that homo sapiens is the only sapiens species on the planet (by conventional definition). If there are no other species of said definition, we're back to the bill being irrelevant. There is good reason why the U.N. didn't pass legislation in respect to non-human sentient species.

How can it not have anything to do with the merits of the argument? The basic problem here is that imaginary creatures are just that: imaginary. They don't exist. The issues that arise in the nations do not indicate their existence even when their presence would be a variable that could not be ignored. Just because leaders of the nation-states claim they exist doesn't mean they do. That is the salient point here. If a leader can say that any kind of creature exists within his realm, the WA member states cannot operate on any commonly held assumptions even about something as simple as what constitutes intelligent life on this planet.

Oh, where to begin? They do exist. We had a talking bear give a speech before this very Assembly earlier today. Allow me to direct you to a transcript (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13889623&postcount=8) of the speech given by the representative of Bears Armed.

Also, Krioval exists as an interstellar chiefdom. Interstellar implies strongly (and is in fact the case here) that civilizations within the World Assembly span multiple planets. I have heard that some even exist in alternate dimensions, though I have no independent confirmation of this fact.

You say these races exist. I say based on actual observation of the natural world that they do not. Science supports the premise that homo sapiens is the only sapiens species on the planet (by conventional definition). If there are no other species of said definition, we're back to the bill being irrelevant. There is good reason why the U.N. didn't pass legislation in respect to non-human sentient species.

Conventional definitions are best left at the door when venturing into the World Assembly. The resolution is relevant because the "conventional" definition under which you are operating is incorrect. Please take some time to acquaint yourself and your nation with the varied cultures that comprise this institution.

Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

The Theocracy of Gabriel Possenti's official position on this legislation:

"It's nonsense. I feel my time has been wasted just reading the bill. I am going back to my breakfast and telling my ministers to place my vote as "No."

GP

See, you say a talking bear came before the Assembly. I say a nutty world leader who said he was a talking bear came before the Assembly. Some chose to humor him.

By the "conventional" definition, I was referring to the one grounded in science...which is allegedly an integral component of how sentient life will be determined if the process is to be "fair and even-handed".

You say these races exist. I say based on actual observation of the natural world that they do not. Science supports the premise that homo sapiens is the only sapiens species on the planet (by conventional definition). If there are no other species of said definition, we're back to the bill being irrelevant. There is good reason why the U.N. didn't pass legislation in respect to non-human sentient species.

The Candor, let's nip this in the bud right now. This is NOT the natural world, this is NationStates. We even go so far as to have a specific ruling against using real world references in WA proposals, as they specifically do not exist in NationStates.

We've accepted multiple species within this game since almost the very beginning, and it's not going to change whether this passes or not. Accept it, don't accept it, I don't care ... but stop highjacking this thread with that discussion.

Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Mod

Birds GOOD!!! Glog kill. Eat. What window? Bird catching machine? Window is clear thing people in old UN building fly through on regular basis.

*clears throat*

Now that I've got that out of my system, I hearby announce that The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites proudly casts their vote FOR this resolution. Now since this debate is turning into exactly what I was dreading, I'm going on vacation and am turning over my duties to these two guys I hired from a temp agency, Marv Statler and Dean Waldorf. Take it away guys.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

Thanks Bob, you're the top of your class.

Of course, you're the only one too.

*they both laugh*

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w166/bak42/statler_waldorf.jpg
Statler & Waldorf
WA Representatives (pro tem)

The fact that this legislation is even being considered is a clear indication of how this "World Assembly" has lost touch with its true purpose. This is meant to be a meeting place for Nations to do business with other nations. The last act that passed, despite what your opinion of it may be, was a legitimate issue to the nations of the world. I think I speak for a good number of the Delegates when I say that our nations did not join this Assembly to debate over monkeys rights. The treatment of creatures within the borders of a sovereign state is something that the citizens, or rulers of those nations should be left to regulate.

I do not remember which noble delegate said this, but his/her point was as such. If we give a Chimp the same rights as a Human being, and that Chimp kills another Chimp, do we give it a trial in our justice systems? That is of course if that said nation has a system in place of that sort.

How about we also make Democracy the only form of government allowed in member nations of this Assembly? Or outlaw democracy? - I am of course kidding. This is not our role as an Organization

On behalf of the people of the Republic of Texan Territories, and the nations located in the region of the Republic of Texas - I can honestly say I am offended by this attempt to dictate our actions within our borders. We joined this assembly in order to improve our relations with other nations of the world. Not to have our government's legislation subverted by other nations. We recently passed legislation disregarding animal rights, leaving the treatment of those animals in the hands of their owner.

If this Act passes, it will show the world just how crooked this organization has become.

Thank you,



Ambassador Matt Bodner
The Republic of Texan Territories

I think I speak for a good number of the Delegates when I say that our nations did not join this Assembly to debate over monkeys rights. The treatment of creatures within the borders of a sovereign state is something that the citizens, or rulers of those nations should be left to regulate.
Declares that member nations shall determine which biological species residing in their own borders possess sentient or sapient qualities,

Glog shrieks and flings poo at Ambassador Matt Bodner.

Glog read WA law before talking. Maybe Texan person should too.

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

I think I speak for a good number of the Delegates when I say that our nations did not join this Assembly to debate over monkeys rights. The treatment of creatures within the borders of a sovereign state is something that the citizens, or rulers of those nations should be left to regulate.

Your Excellency, could you explain this fascination with monkeys? Do monkeys in your nation have an "independent capacity for wisdom, judgment, the formation of rational, abstract or logical thoughts, and the ability to communicate these thoughts with others"? If not, then I am failing to understand the issue here. And if one reads the resolution carefully, the implementation of this resolution is left to a disinterested member of a given nation's government.

I do not remember which noble delegate said this, but his/her point was as such. If we give a Chimp the same rights as a Human being, and that Chimp kills another Chimp, do we give it a trial in our justice systems? That is of course if that said nation has a system in place of that sort.

The answer to that question was an unequivocal "no". That's because the standard chimpanzee is not a sapient creature. It cannot comprehend the concept of a criminal justice system, along with many "rational, abstract or logical thoughts".

How about we also make Democracy the only form of government allowed in member nations of this Assembly? Or outlaw democracy? - I am of course kidding. This is not our role as an Organization

Also, both of those attempts would be illegal. The World Assembly cannot compel a form of government in its member nations.

If this Act passes, it will show the world just how crooked this organization has become.

Does not compute.

Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

While I was always able to simply demand equal treatment, it's nice to see this being offered to help those who can't. The Hack still isn't in the WA, but we support you in spirit.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Tindalos/UN/Verm.jpg
Vermithrax Pejorative
WA Observer
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious Hack

Ah but I did read the WA Law. We are talking about the same law aren't we? The Sentient Rights Act? The same Act that defines "sentience as the ability to perceive consciousness or self-awareness, an intelligence that does not necessarily rise to the level of sapience"

I do believe that Monkeys, and many other creatures fall under the Sentient Category. Now, this law "Obligates member states to take all prudent and necessary measures to protect all sentient creatures under their jurisdiction from deliberate, unprovoked harm, violence, killings, or extermination." also that "all sentient beings are deserving of protection under international law"

This directly undermines the Legislation recently passed by my Government.

This Republic recognizes the difference between Sapient and Sentient as defined by this law.

This law is essentially two laws in one. We are dealing with the rights of Sapient beings, which are almost unanimously respected, and the rights of Sentient beings.

The writers of this law will find that alone, the Sapient Rights will most likely pass without much trouble. I would therefore expect them to accept this proposal and write two separate bills. That is, of course, unless the Sapient rights part of this Law is being used as means to usher in an Animal Rights bill. The authors of this Act are more than likely making this law more appealing to the nations of this assembly by throwing in Sapient Rights under an act titles Sentient rights.

The Republic of Texan Territories kindly asks the author to identify who's rights they intend to protect. I also request that this piece of legislation be split in to two Acts.

Thank you,


Ambassador Matt Bodner
Republic of Texan Territories

sapiens can have animal rights but there not having mine

I am still finding it hard to believe that this idea is even being considered. This resolution is quite simply a waste of the World Assembly's time and resources. I believe that this resolution is giving the WA a bad name, and that there are more important issues to be addressed.
The fact that people have actually voted "YES" for this resolution fills me with great concern for the direction of this institution. I will be encouraging everyone in my region to vote "NO" for this pointless bureaucratic endeavor.

I dont think this is a good idea, that is because not everybody desurve rights.
Somepeople do, some not. I vote against.
I think, that a dictator ofcourse, says no. Because it is strange!
Not everybody got rights and that is damn good to.

This directly undermines the Legislation recently passed by my Government.Uhh, I don't know, you were just told you can make your own determination on sentience, weren't you? If you're calling monkeys sentient and it undermines your local laws as a result, it's your own damn fault.

See, you say a talking bear came before the Assembly. I say a nutty world leader who said he was a talking bear came before the Assembly. Some chose to humor him.

By the "conventional" definition, I was referring to the one grounded in science...which is allegedly an integral component of how sentient life will be determined if the process is to be "fair and even-handed".OK, for the last time, nations can make their own determination whether non-human sentients or sapients exist in their own borders. It was specifically worded this way so individual players needn't brawl over conflicting RP patterns. You don't have to opt into fantasy roleplay or recognize the sentience or sapience of anything besides human beings if you don't want to, and this resolution certainly doesn't force you to. Stop creating conflict where none exists.

I am still finding it hard to believe that this idea is even being considered. This resolution is quite simply a waste of the World Assembly's time and resources. I believe that this resolution is giving the WA a bad name, and that there are more important issues to be addressed.
The fact that people have actually voted "YES" for this resolution fills me with great concern for the direction of this institution. I will be encouraging everyone in my region to vote "NO" for this pointless bureaucratic endeavor.


The government of the emperor of Urgench wishes to assure the respected delegate for Jay Razzle that this resolution does not call for the waste of any World Assembly resorces.
We urge them to reconsider their position since this resolution will secure equality under w.a. laws for whole populations and entire member nations. We are no great fans of Fotar's kingdom of the Narnian Foxes for instance but we completely defend its right to equal status under the law.

All member states of this organisation, regardless of the nature of their population should be treated equally by it.

Yours e.t.c. ,

I agree with Jaz Razzle. We have plenty and plenty of issues that need to be adderesed and were concerned with the rights of aliens?! Even as a country renound for civil rights i have to put my foot down here. Its silly and just causes more problems. Vote NO!

I agree with Jaz Razzle. We have plenty and plenty of issues that need to be adderesed and were concerned with the rights of aliens?! Even as a country renound for civil rights i have to put my foot down here. Its silly and just causes more problems. Vote NO!

This organisation will undoubtedly be dealing with any and all issues it's membership decide to bring before it. To those who are suggesting that this resolution is a waste of time we ask, what issues do you think the w.a. should be dealing with? And more importantly why have you not written resolutions which solve these problems ?

This resolution is extremely apposite, it will prevent much future waste of time and energy in the formation of new resolutions. The moral argument for it is overwhelming and it behoves all ethically concious member nations to vote yes to it.

We implore you respected ambssador for Callahani, if you care about equality then how does it harm your nation to vote yes?

yours e.t.c. ,

SchutteGod may I ask what the point of this bill is if you are not forcing Member nations to comply by the set of standards for Sentience and Sapience in your bill?

You have given us a set of guidelines for determining Sapience and Sentience in this law. I take that as what you are proposing the WA establish as its recognized standards for these classifications. This makes the bit about member nations being able to decide completely pointless. It is obvious what your Act intends to enforce.

SchutteGod rewrite this Act.

Here are my suggestions:

Split it into two different Acts - Sentient and Sapient
Sentient will be an animal rights bill, seeing as most animals are self aware and can perceive consciousness.

Sapient will deal with the rights of the talking bears, aliens, and house elves in this assembly.

Rephrase the bit about Nations deciding what creatures get Sapient or Sentient status in their borders. It sounds like your trying to say as nicely as you can that we can decide these things, as long as it does not conflict with the standards set in this Act. This is again another attempt to make this bill more attractive to those who are not reading it carefully and seriously considering its implications.



SchutteGod rewrite this Act.




Thank you,



Ambassador Matt Bodner
Republic of Texan Territories

Also, The subtitle currently reads "A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights."

This is misleading. I would like to suggest rewriting that as well.

Also, The subtitle currently reads "A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights."

This is misleading. I would like to suggest rewriting that as well.



The subtitle in question is a non optional reference to the category of laws to which this resolution was submitted. It is not written by the authors of the resolution but is applied by the w.a. automatically. Could the respected ambassador for the Texan Territories suggest a better category for a statute which seeks to extend rights to sapients?

My apologies to SchutteGod about the subtitle.

However, to answer Urgench, perhaps Moral Decency for the Sapient bill and Environment for Sentient. Or Moral Decency for both. Human rights just does not seem to fit seeing as we are not dealing with Humans.

SchutteGod may I ask what the point of this bill is if you are not forcing Member nations to comply by the set of standards for Sentience and Sapience in your bill?Ugh. Given the glaring inconsistency of your "arguments" (first this gives the WA too much power, now it gives it too little -- which is it??*), I see little point to responding to them, but what the heck, don't say I left with nothing:

This resolves the sentience/sapience debate. Good or bad, it resolves the issue. It doesn't give the WA total control, nor does it give your nation total freedom to do anything they like, either. You are given the final decision on sentience/sapience, but the process must be fair and take all available science into account. You can't just say, "Me no likey the prancing unicorns," and make an arbitrary decision. Your findings must be sound and deliberated. This is the fairest compromise we could muster without immediately turning off all the anti-sapients crowd, which is substantial. A degree of pragmatism was required in the drafting of a law on such a difficult issue.

SchutteGod rewrite this Act.Can't, already at vote. If it fails, you write one better.

Here are my suggestions:Completely moot. The act cannot be rewritten.

SchutteGod rewrite this Act.No.


*Actually scratch that -- after rereading your first few grafs, your position is actually much more cynical and mistrusting than that for which I give you credit.

My argument was not that this is giving the WA to little power. I was simply trying to ask what the point of this bill is if you are still allowing nations to pretty much do as they please with Sentient life. Is it not a waste of time if nothing really changes? I am sure we all agree that Sapient life must be treated with the same respect most nations give Human life. Your bill gives a standard for Sentient life to be judged by, then gives us the option to review various creatures according to those standards. It then states that these creatures are protected under international law. I am in no way offended by the Sapient rights, it is the nature of the Sentient rights in this bill that most of us are opposed to.

The people of many nations in this Assembly eat creatures that would be considered Sentient by this assembly.

My nations has a huge supply of Cows, and we eat them. By this Acts definition of Sentient, cows most certainly fall under that category.

Now our Republic would be in direct violation of this Act if we were to say cows are not Sentient, because when we were to do the required scientific research into the matter we would find that they most certainly are.

This would be the case with many nations in this assembly. This Act will cause a large number of nations to have to change their practices with livestock, etc...

Why pass this legislation when there is also a good number of nations that CHOOSE to treat their Sentient population differently, why should they dictate what another group does. Especially when the other group obviously has a very different style of governing.

This is one side, forcing a way of life on another.

My argument was not that this is giving the WA to little power. I was simply trying to ask what the point of this bill is if you are still allowing nations to pretty much do as they please with Sentient life. Is it not a waste of time if nothing really changes? I am sure we all agree that Sapient life must be treated with the same respect most nations give Human life. Your bill gives a standard for Sentient life to be judged by, then gives us the option to review various creatures according to those standards. It then states that these creatures are protected under international law. I am in no way offended by the Sapient rights, it is the nature of the Sentient rights in this bill that most of us are opposed to.

The people of many nations in this Assembly eat creatures that would be considered Sentient by this assembly.

My nations has a huge supply of Cows, and we eat them. By this Acts definition of Sentient, cows most certainly fall under that category.

Now our Republic would be in direct violation of this Act if we were to say cows are not Sentient, because when we were to do the required scientific research into the matter we would find that they most certainly are.

This would be the case with many nations in this assembly. This Act will cause a large number of nations to have to change their practices with livestock, etc...

Why pass this legislation when there is also a good number of nations that CHOOSE to treat their Sentient population differently, why should they dictate what another group does. Especially when the other group obviously has a very different style of governing.

This is one side, forcing a way of life on another.


Infact the definition of sentience in this statute would not cover most domesticated animals and scaremongering to the contrary is not helpfull in establishing the legislative efficacy of this statute.

The respected ambassador's argument that because some member nations treat sentient and sapient non-humans with respect and dignity is pernicious, it does not specify if such nations are a majority or on what authority such a claim is made. Besides should we allow sentients and sapients to be grievously mistreated elsewhere? do they not deserve fair treatment?

This is not "one side forcing a way of life on another", how does this resolution constitute a "way of life" at all? It is merely an attempt to deal ethically and morally with a problem which has bedevilled this organisation for a very long time.

Yours e.t.c. ,

My nations has a huge supply of Cows, and we eat them. By this Acts definition of Sentient, cows most certainly fall under that category.

Now our Republic would be in direct violation of this Act if we were to say cows are not Sentient, because when we were to do the required scientific research into the matter we would find that they most certainly are.

This would be the case with many nations in this assembly. This Act will cause a large number of nations to have to change their practices with livestock, etc...I'm sorry, I didn't realize cows could perceive consciousness or were self-aware, nor did I ever think that it would be "prudent and necessary" for nations to shut down their beef industries because their governments are too stupid to decide for themselves (as instructed in the third clause) if their cattle are a sentient breed. The qualifying words in this resolution have a purpose, you know; we don't just slip them in to be cute.

We don't have a system to decide what creatures have more intelligence then others. Where will we draw the line?

I'm sure a bovine (of the family of Bovidae = cow) has great intelligence, but is it enough to get past "wisdom meter?" On the other hand, not all nations recognize that a fox can talk so it might not even make it on the list. Does a common fairy have wisdom/knowledge or is it as smart as a mosquito?

Really, this proposal needs to be thought out more.

OK, for the last time, nations can make their own determination whether non-human sentients or sapients exist in their own borders. It was specifically worded this way so individual players needn't brawl over conflicting RP patterns. You don't have to opt into fantasy roleplay or recognize the sentience or sapience of anything besides human beings if you don't want to, and this resolution certainly doesn't force you to. Stop creating conflict where none exists.

Well, I'm glad that's for the last time because that doesn't work. Our societies can't very well be existing in the same world if the physics and biology of one is not possible in the other. And if we're not existing in the same world, the World Assembly is pointless. If you want to talk about creating conflict where none exists, why start a bill to address problems that don't exist in real world politics?

Well, I'm glad that's for the last time because that doesn't work. Our societies can't very well be existing in the same world if the physics and biology of one is not possible in the other. And if we're not existing in the same world, the World Assembly is pointless. If you want to talk about creating conflict where none exists, why start a bill to address problems that don't exist in real world politics?
Glog think Candor person miss this post. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13892156&postcount=100)

Well, I'm glad that's for the last time because that doesn't work. Our societies can't very well be existing in the same world if the physics and biology of one is not possible in the other. And if we're not existing in the same world, the World Assembly is pointless. If you want to talk about creating conflict where none exists, why start a bill to address problems that don't exist in real world politics?


This is not the mythical and fabled " Real World " of which the respected ambassador for The Candor speaks, this is the Nation States World a completely different place with absolutely different parameters. The respected ambassador really ought to learn to understand this or otherwise they will find this place a difficult and disorientating place to be.

Acceptance of eccentricity and understanding of the peculiarities of others are the primary prerequisites of good diplomacy.

Yours e.t.c. ,

Ah but I did read the WA Law. We are talking about the same law aren't we? The Sentient Rights Act? The same Act that defines "sentience as the ability to perceive consciousness or self-awareness, an intelligence that does not necessarily rise to the level of sapience"

I do believe that Monkeys, and many other creatures fall under the Sentient Category. Now, this law "Obligates member states to take all prudent and necessary measures to protect all sentient creatures under their jurisdiction from deliberate, unprovoked harm, violence, killings, or extermination." also that "all sentient beings are deserving of protection under international law"

Let's assume for a moment that everything you've said above is true. Even given all of that, it is up to your government to determine what is "prudent and necessary" to "protect all sentient creatures". This means that one doesn't have to imagine apes requiring criminal proceedings for walloping one another. The Great Chiefdom wouldn't make such a leap in thought, so why are other governments worried about this?

Or, to be a bit more direct, non-sapient but sentient creatures are afforded fewer rights under this resolution.

This directly undermines the Legislation recently passed by my Government.

Well, to quote the Great Chief, "fecality occurs". The WA and its predecessor have had an annoying habit of doing this.

This Republic recognizes the difference between Sapient and Sentient as defined by this law.

This law is essentially two laws in one. We are dealing with the rights of Sapient beings, which are almost unanimously respected, and the rights of Sentient beings.

The writers of this law will find that alone, the Sapient Rights will most likely pass without much trouble. I would therefore expect them to accept this proposal and write two separate bills. That is, of course, unless the Sapient rights part of this Law is being used as means to usher in an Animal Rights bill. The authors of this Act are more than likely making this law more appealing to the nations of this assembly by throwing in Sapient Rights under an act titles Sentient rights.

The Republic of Texan Territories kindly asks the author to identify who's rights they intend to protect. I also request that this piece of legislation be split in to two Acts.

For an animal rights act, this resolution is glaringly weak. That's primarily because it isn't intended to promote animal rights as most nations would think of them. The primary goal of this legislation is to protect societies with roughly human-equivalent intelligence by conferring equal rights to them. The secondary goal is to ask nations to not torture animals who are self-aware. The two issues are reasonably intertwined given that there is a continuum along which intelligence can be measured. Since there's no bright line separating intelligent from unintelligent, a gradient is substituted.

Thank you,


Ambassador Matt Bodner
Republic of Texan Territories

No prob.

Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

All the other points RK3's ambassador raised are being ably argued here by others; but as far as we can tell, one very important point (in our opinion) has not been addressed by anyone else.

This resolution would not allow member nations to prefer the rights of non-sapient humans such as babies and the mentally-defective or the mentally-ill (and, in some countries, women; and in others, the lower classes) above those of sapient non-humans, such as healthy adult chimpanzees or bonobos or dolphins or whales or elephants, or such as artificial intelligences (other nations in RK3's region have such artificial intelligences and have even come close to granting them citizenship).

RK3 believes any government of humans by humans has the right to make itself be for humans. Member-nations of the WA must retain the right to prefer the rights of humans, even non-sapient humans, over those of non-humans (such as corporations), even sapient non-humans.

We really must insist.

All the other points RK3's ambassador raised are being ably argued here by others; but as far as we can tell, one very important point (in our opinion) has not been addressed by anyone else.

This resolution would not allow member nations to prefer the rights of non-sapient humans such as babies and the mentally-defective or the mentally-ill (and, in some countries, women; and in others, the lower classes) above those of sapient non-humans, such as healthy adult chimpanzees or bonobos or dolphins or whales or elephants, or such as artificial intelligences (other nations in RK3's region have such artificial intelligences and have even come close to granting them citizenship).

RK3 believes any government of humans by humans has the right to make itself be for humans. Member-nations of the WA must retain the right to prefer the rights of humans, even non-sapient humans, over those of non-humans (such as corporations), even sapient non-humans.

We really must insist.


Much of what you have written is poppycock but one point must be addressed. There are many nations in the w.a. where humans are minorities, and where governments are formed by non-human sapients, would you consent to them using your model and divesting their human minorities of their rights and treating them as dumb beasts, torturing and missusing them?

Indeed this principal could be used to rent asunder the very fabric of the w.a. pitching Humans and Non-humans into endless racial conflict.

yours e.t.c. ,

All the other points RK3's ambassador raised are being ably argued here by others; but as far as we can tell, one very important point (in our opinion) has not been addressed by anyone else.

This resolution would not allow member nations to prefer the rights of non-sapient humans such as babies and the mentally-defective or the mentally-ill (and, in some countries, women; and in others, the lower classes) above those of sapient non-humans, such as healthy adult chimpanzees or bonobos or dolphins or whales or elephants, or such as artificial intelligences (other nations in RK3's region have such artificial intelligences and have even come close to granting them citizenship).

Well, Krioval has dealt with this as follows: sapient individuals have full rights in the Great Chiefdom. Babies and severely mentally ill humans in Krioval are special cases: they belong to a class of normally sapient beings, but themselves lack sapience as is currently defined. As such, they have citizenship due to their membership in that class, but not all rights are conferred onto those populations. Babies and the severely mentally ill cannot, for example, vote or enter into contractual agreements.

Bonobos, chimpanzees, and dolphins do not rise to the level of sapience as Krioval understands the definition. Thus, they do not receive citizenship or the rights and responsibilities thereof. Some artificial intelligences in Krioval do possess these qualities, and are afforded full social and political rights.

Sapient non-human visitors to Krioval are treated as any foreign human visitor would be treated. This resolution reinforces policies already under effect in Krioval, then, and there are no inherent contradictions that we can find. I would be most interested in knowing RK3's objections to our analysis, if any exist.

RK3 believes any government of humans by humans has the right to make itself be for humans. Member-nations of the WA must retain the right to prefer the rights of humans, even non-sapient humans, over those of non-humans (such as corporations), even sapient non-humans.

With all due respect, a corporation does not, in Krioval at the very least, possess either sentience or sapience, any more than any other contract would. While the shareholders of a corporation will certainly feel the pain when prices dip, the corporation as a whole does not writhe in agony.

We really must insist.

I hope that my analysis was helpful to you. Let me know if I have missed something.

Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

The stench of her spittle as it dampened those sitting near her wasn't nearly as disturbing as the sight of the giant arachnid. Heaving her bloated body up on the box near her, Shelob hissed and chuffed her message to the delegates.

Realz we arez yessz.... no hypotheticalsz.A spider???
And that's your way to try to make me support this nonsense law?
I should laugh, but I'm very disappointed to do that...

The test for being sentient is simple. Put a mirror infront of yourself. If you see something in the mirror and then realize it's you, congrats you are sentient. However, if you just think there is a funny looking thing there, then you are not. There is self-awareness animals who can't see themselves at the mirror, so this is not an argument

I'm sorry, I didn't realize cows could perceive consciousness or were self-aware, nor did I ever think that it would be "prudent and necessary" for nations to shut down their beef industries because their governments are too stupid to decide for themselves (as instructed in the third clause) if their cattle are a sentient breed.I prefer to keep my stupid government, because to assume your 'smart law' will increase my administration budget, and we fiercely wont do that!

I encourage everyone to vote against the Sentients Rights Act. It will severely limit all animal testing within your nation, which may prove detrimental to your citizenry as certain drugs can never be fully tested or approved (depending on your policies).

It will also require governments to increase environmental spending in order to protect the sapient species where as Dannenbrog feels this decision should be left to the individual nation itself and not delegated to the World Assembly.

I encourage everyone to vote against the Sentients Rights Act. It will severely limit all animal testing within your nation, which may prove detrimental to your citizenry as certain drugs can never be fully tested or approved (depending on your policies).

It will also require governments to increase environmental spending in order to protect the sapient species where as Dannenbrog feels this decision should be left to the individual nation itself and not delegated to the World Assembly.


With respect to the honoured ambassador to Dannenbrog this resolution will do no such thing. Any carefull reading will clearly show that the business of conferal of rights is left in the hands of member nations themselves and that testing of drugs and treatments will remain unaffected by this resolution.

yours e.t.c. ,

This resolution would not allow member nations to prefer the rights of non-sapient humans ... above those of sapient non-humans....Really? Where does the resolution state that?

I prefer to keep my stupid government, because to assume your 'smart law' will increase my administration budget, ...And where does it state that?

It will severely limit all animal testing within your nation... It will also require governments to increase environmental spending....Or that?

Funny how hysteria makes people see words that aren't actually there. :rolleyes:

This resolution would not allow member nations to prefer the rights of non-sapient humans such as babies and the mentally-defective or the mentally-ill (and, in some countries, women; and in others, the lower classes) above those of sapient non-humans, such as healthy adult chimpanzees or bonobos or dolphins or whales or elephants,
The resolution says nothing at all about "non-sapient humans", which makes it kind of hard for it to do that.

or such as artificial intelligences (other nations in RK3's region have such artificial intelligences and have even come close to granting them citizenship).
The resolution doesn't say anything about AIs either, since they aren't natural biological critters. You can grant them citizenship if you want to, or not if you don't.

RK3 believes any government of humans by humans has the right to make itself be for humans.
If there are no non-human sapients in your nation, this is a non-issue. The problem comes when the government is of non-humans by humans. If you refuse to acknowledge the non-human's sapience and rights, aren't you indulging in slavery by another name?

This is an insult to the entire planet. I rue the day mother Terra allows "talking bears" and "elves" to have the same rights as humans. Such abominations should be annihilated. The Human race holds the reigns of power and we go to where we are by snuffing out all competition. This resolution is one of weakness and surrender. Two things we cannot tolerate. If the talking bears cannot defend themselves from us they should die. Survival of the fittest let nature and the human spirit run their course.

LONG LIVE TERRA
GOD BLESS THE HUMAN SPIRIT

Look, speaking informally on behalf of my country, I wouldn't mind if this law were to protect non-sapient entities. But if you are going to start protecting non-human sapients, then where will it end? Next thing you know, we're going to be forced to have human rights! And what then I ask you?!


- Luscious Mockus, Inquisitor Ordo Xenos, Human Terror

If this passes, Amston will NOT give apes the same rights as humans. This is stupid. So, if this is the case, I am going to jail all animals or 'sentient beings' for violating exposure laws. Moreso, I am going to jail them for crapping on people's front lawns. And then I will put them to death for biting anyone. Listen Hippies, stay out of Amston, or you will be treated like a sentient being.... Does anyone else think this is incredibly stupid?

Hail Amston, Hail the Emperor, And down with the PETA pushing panzies...

my vote is OH GOD NO!!!

The fact that this legislation is even being considered is a clear indication of how this "World Assembly" has lost touch with its true purpose. This is meant to be a meeting place for Nations to do business with other nations. The last act that passed, despite what your opinion of it may be, was a legitimate issue to the nations of the world. I think I speak for a good number of the Delegates when I say that our nations did not join this Assembly to debate over monkeys rights.The only monkey we can see here is you. *laughs*

A spider???
And that's your way to try to make me support this nonsense law?
I should laugh, but I'm very disappointed to do that...Would you prefer to be accosted by a moogle with a spear, because I think we can arrange that.

This is an insult to the entire planet. I rue the day mother Terra allows "talking bears" and "elves" to have the same rights as humans. Such abominations should be annihilated. The Human race holds the reigns of power and we go to where we are by snuffing out all competition. This resolution is one of weakness and surrender. Two things we cannot tolerate. If the talking bears cannot defend themselves from us they should die. Survival of the fittest let nature and the human spirit run their course.

LONG LIVE TERRA
GOD BLESS THE HUMAN SPIRIT

I say we put that guy and that talking bear in the Thunderdome and see who comes out alive.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w166/bak42/statler_waldorf.jpg
Statler & Waldorf
WA Representatives (pro tem)

I say we put that guy and that talking bear in the Thunderdome and see who comes out alive.


I second that, but both the bear and the guy get to choose what firearms they walk in with. If the bear feels it can do without, that's it's business.

Luscious Mockus, Inquisitor Ordo Xenos
Empire of Human Terror

Really? Where does the resolution state that?

Sentients Rights Act
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Declares that member nations shall determine which biological species residing in their own borders possess sentient or sapient qualities, provided that the process involved is fair and even-handed and excludes potential conflicts of interest, that all available valid and confirmed scientific evidence is taken into account, and that denials of sentient or sapient status can be appealed to a higher, disinterested official or body within the government;There it is written. Answer to yourself.
Just like 'Neutrality of nations' resolution, this will impact to our internal economies. Our administration will grow, taxes for this will be required.
We strongly disagree.

Obligates member states to take all prudent and necessary measures to protect all sentient creatures under their jurisdiction from deliberate, unprovoked harm, violence, killings, or extermination.We'll have to inaugurate a Sentient Protection Society, this is also expensive for our citizen budget.
Your sense of uprightness towards other supposed smart life forms will alter the life of present, voting, hardworking life forms.
It is a cost we can't not afford.

I am going to outlaw animals if this passes...

Well this so far has been the closest vote yet, I am of course against it so I hope it doesn't pass. But we shall see.

[OOC] Ironically, nearly half the WA think that Dragons should have lesser rights than humans, even though we can kick their asses physically, mentally, and morally...

The tiny, elderly Khan Mongkha ambassador for Urgench stands up and speaks loudly for the first time in his life, abandoning urgenchi custom the better to be understood by his colleagues.

"The government of the emperor of Urgench wishes to urge the Human membership of this organisation to vote yes to this resolution. If we allow any kind of dicriminatory practice on the part of the World Assembly in it's dealings with it's member nations it will become the tool of bigots and lunatics. Now it is Bears and Elves and Dolphins who are ignored and marginalised soon it will be your people.

This organisation above all others must exemplify all that is fair and even handed, all that is honest and decent. If you have ever suffered because of someone else's contempt or because you were considered in some way undeserving of your inborn dignity because of someone else's ignorance and predjudice then you must vote yes!

The noble ambassador for SchutteGod has written an extremely usefull and efficacious resolution with a moral and courageous spirit, how can we vote it down? Fellow Humans be moral, be decent, do something for which future generations will speak of you with honour. Vote yes to this resolution!"

The khan arranges his papers to leave. His tiredness is obvious as he slowly leaves the chamber.

Not quite sure why this is being pushed through the WA. It is silly. I'm not even going to justify its existence by voting against it. But if this is the kind of stuff we should expect to see coming out of the WA then I would have to question the ultimate point of continuing membership in the WA.

you're not that only one who has had those sentiments. Though If I were you and you don't want it pushed through vote against' it.

We still have reservations about national determinations of sapience as opposed to a WA committee, but we'll cast our vote FOR just so we can't be associated with the laughable against crowd.

Vance Aceon
Deputy Presiding Jevian World Assembly Ambassador
Delegate of the United Nations Region

Many in both crowds find the other side laughable.. I find your final comment "but we'll cast our vote FOR just so we can't be associated with the laughable against crowd" fairly laughable myself.

But on to a more important matter. As this ..resolution states that the nations decide.. Why do we even need this resolution. Just let the nations decide as they will, if they deem it prudent or necessary.

Maggie Carlisle closes the file she had been reading cataloging several non-human, sapient beings, sighing. Good night! This WA post is going to be far worse than I imagined. How can a person listen to swearing, militant penguins, armed bears, arachnids, Glog, and WA gnomes and STILL insist there is no such thing as non-human races? Does reality have NO bearing on these people? They've obviously not spent any time at the WA Stranger's Bar. (Not that Maggie had either, but she had a file on it.) If any Interstellar folk are in the area I REALLY wish they'd invent an idiot detector with an independent phaser set to "give them brains" and USE IT.

Maggie turns to her assistant Bill Thompsord "Bill, draft a letter requesting a replacement posting immediately." Sliding her glasses back up her rather prominent nose, Maggie stands to address her colleagues.

"It has long been the practice of our nation to understand and respect non-human, sapient races and their rights. Having had experience trading with and working with non-human races, we know for a fact they exist. Even if we hadn't had these experiences, simply walking into this august body should be enough to tell any sapient race, human or otherwise, that there exist non-human races capable of self-awareness, independent and/or abstract thought, and logical reasoning skills." Maggie pointedly looks in the direction of the Palantine delegation and waves "Hey you @#$^@! How ya doing?"

"It is possible that those who refuse to accept reality are not technically sapient and therefore should confine their activities to those requiring less mental activity than WA debate."

"Frankly, any race that can curse more creatively than many humans and bears that can load a gun and blow your @#%@Q$^ head off certainly deserve at the minimum a healthy respect and most certainly the same rights that human, sapient creatures claim."

Our nation will urge our delegate to vote in favor of this legislation."

Sitting down Maggie wonders how long this pointless back and forth will go on. "Bill, be sure to draft a statement of our position to the regional delegate. I'll look at it in the morning. And DON'T forget that letter requesting a replacement posting. I don't care HOW many people they have to ask - there has to be some social-climbing schemer that would jump at this job. Tell them to post the opening at the Goodman School for the Deaf. Maybe that'll help."

Bill looked up from his laptop with a confused expression. "But Maggie... if they were deaf they wouldn't be able to hear what every.... oh. I get it." Bill gives Maggie a sheepish grin. "I'm going to have to get used to your sense of humor."

Maggie looks at Bill and just shakes her head. "Umm... right. Listen, I need a drink. If anything really crazy happens, call me. Otherwise, just take notes. I can't imagine any original thought around here, but I guess you never know. See you in the morning." Rising, Maggie collects her purse and briefcase and hustles out the door in search of a VERY large alcoholic beverage to help alleviate the nerve damage along her auditory canal she's certain she's sustained just listening to some of what passes for debate.

*Stands very slowely to address his fellow delegates*
This is indeed an act that should have been in place many, many years ago, and we, the Covenant Empire, applaud such a measure and applaud it's writer.
Just because other sentient beings are not human does not mean they are lacking the mental capacity that human beings posess, in fact, they could posess more mental superior mental agility.
Those whom vote against this bill simply display discrimination and racism by denying an otherwise diverse culture the equality that it should have allready commanded in the first place.
As many should know, our glorious Covenant Empire is made up of many different species and races and are completely devoid of the human race. Thus, the High Counsel's position.
As a representative of the holy high counsel, I vote for this resolution, and pray it passes.

Minister of foreign affairs of the Covenant Empire;
Prophet of Intellect

in search of a VERY large alcoholic beverage to help alleviate the nerve damage along her auditory canal she's certain she's sustained just listening to some of what passes for debate.

Believe me though were on the opposite side of this, I feel the same way.

No, just no. American Woman votes, 'NO'

No, just no. American Woman votes, 'NO'

Well, Skippy, care to explain why? In a lucid, logical fashion?

Wens Foroun
Symposium Subjugant

Darkesia[248]. Well the opposition more or less might have just lost. I hope you think him/her SchutteGod as it was double digits before this.. absurd amount of delegate votes. And to clarify by Absurd I was implying the sheer amount of votes.*

Darkesia[248]. Well the opposition more or less might have just lost. I hope you think him SchutteGod as it was double digits before this.. absurd amount of delegate votes.

Gatesville is a powerful region that commands a large amount of delegate votes. The Dark Side is strong with them...

We can thank them for cutting through the ridiculously juvenile and ignorant "opposition" arguments that have been spewing, like waster from a sewage main, since Hour 1 of this debate.

W.F.
etc.

No, just no. American Woman votes, 'NO'Just so everyone is aware, this same delegate approved this resolution for vote, and when I contacted her about the floor vote, all she could do was rant and rave about "the feminists." So I hope the opposition realizes what wonderful company they keep.

Darkesia[248]. Well the opposition more or less might have just lost. I hope you think him SchutteGod as it was double digits before this.. absurd amount of delegate votes.Yes, I do intend to thank her (although I had "inside info" that she was probably going to vote "for" anyway). No one's won anything yet; I've seen proposals lose that were ahead by a lot more this early in the voting process. And I'll thank you not to jinx it.

Just so everyone is aware, this same delegate approved this resolution for vote, and when I contacted her about the floor vote, all she could do was rant and rave about "the feminists." So I hope the opposition realizes what wonderful company they keep.

American woman, stay away from me. American Woman, mama, let me be. Don't come hangin' around my door, I don't wanna see your face no more, I got more important things to do than spend my time growin' old with you--Now, woman, I said stay away!

American Woman, listen what I say!

Wens Foroun
etc.

Can I have my trousers back, Ms. Foroun?

I hope I do jinx it >_> but I sort of doubt any jinx would work as ive seen far more with the lead win then lose

Can I have my trousers back, Ms. Foroun?

Only if you ask nicely, dear.

*winks*

Wens Foroun (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/kuroutesshin/Bea_Arthur.jpg)
etc,

Oh boy O.o

This act is another attempt to force governments to do things which are expensive and ridiculous. It is another useless violation of national sovereignty. I plead that the World Assembly vote against it.

I dissent.

The reason for my above thread is this: do we now extend property rights to sapients? Do we give them rights to liberty, and the same health rights? Do they need to be given a fair trial? It is impossibly ridiculous.

Darkesia[248]. Well the opposition more or less might have just lost. I hope you think him/her SchutteGod as it was double digits before this.. absurd amount of delegate votes. And to clarify by Absurd I was implying the sheer amount of votes.*

Gatesville just voted in *favor* of a non-repeal resolution? Granted, it's been a while since I've paid attention to such things, but...huh.

Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

[OOC] Ironically, nearly half the WA think that Dragons should have lesser rights than humans, even though we can kick their asses physically, mentally, and morally...It just goes to show that there are no signs of intelligent life down here.

We still have reservations about national determinations of sapience as opposed to a WA committee, but we'll cast our vote FOR just so we can't be associated with the laughable against crowd.

Vance Aceon
Deputy Presiding Jevian World Assembly Ambassador
Delegate of the United Nations RegionPersonally, we find both sides laughable.

Well, Skippy, care to explain why? In a lucid, logical fashion?

Wens Foroun
Symposium Subjugant

How can they, they're opposed.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w166/bak42/statler_waldorf.jpg
Statler & Waldorf
WA Representatives (pro tem)

About darn time we were afforded some rights! It's the least you fuzzy bastards could do!


-Gnome #2375
I am the crawling dead / A phantom in a box, shadow in your head / ... / More human than human

*The representative from The Kingdom of Gruatha looks around the room with an incredulous expression*


Wait a minute.... what??

There are nations peopled with talking Bears, Foxes, Dolphins, and numerous other creatures some mythical and legendary. Currently the W.A. 's protection of rights, civil and personal only applies to humans this is manifestly unfair. This excellent resolution will rectify that situation and ensure full protection of the rights of all the citizens of all it's member nations.

yours e.t.c. ,


As far as I know these things don't exist & those nations that claim that do not exist aswell. This is something a nation should make up it's mind about not a world gov't.

Otherwise this resolution is made by & approved by some Silly Deluded on Psychotropic Drugs Tree-Hugging Hippy Crap, who believe they are or there are Talking Animals with a comprehending mind to the point about as equal to a humans.

(OOC: Besided maybe some people's nations those things do not exist so why also ruin it for them, by saying walking talking human-like in behavior bears exist? Maybe a Animal Rights as in protecting their lives from cruel & not necessary deaths, not voting & doing what humans do, should be put up for a resolution.)

As far as I know these things don't exist & those nations that claim that do not exist aswell. This is something a nation should make up it's mind about not a world gov't.

I am so sorry you do not know these things exist and that those nations that claim them do not exist. It is a fact that a lot of those nations put their vote in favour of this act and that those votes are on the official list of WA nations that voted in favour. If you think non existent nations do have votes that count, you cannot be intelligent enough to go in debate on this.

Maybe you only use this as an argument against this proposed WA act, but you better use arguments that are valid.

I still vote in favour of this act because this act gives nations enough space to have their own opinion and for those nations where there are no sapient or sentient species are nothing changes. I think they have already a department of their government that deals with laws connected with animals (or they should have), so I do not think this act will waste a lot of money there.

Also I am for equal rights between beings with enough intelligence to understand the law of my nation.

I hope the people inside the Israel Territories have enough intelligence or education to understand how the WA is working.

Regards

(OOC: Besided maybe some people's nations those things do not exist so why also ruin it for them, by saying walking talking human-like in behavior bears exist? Maybe a Animal Rights as in protecting their lives from cruel & not necessary deaths, not voting & doing what humans do, should be put up for a resolution.)

OOC: If no non-human sapient life exists in your nation, then this legislation really doesn't impact you, does it?

I agree, this has no point the only thing the wrld assembly is trying to do now find anothr problem to resolve, like they have nothing better to do but put forward another law stupid law, except this time we have to deal with vampires and other wied and mistical creatures getting rights?
MY VOTE: NO NO NO Voe agianst this insane and ludacirst law:mad:

I say we put that guy and that talking bear in the Thunderdome and see who comes out alive.

Statler & Waldorf
WA Representatives (pro tem)

"I'm willing if he is..."


Borrin o Redwood,
Ambassador to the World Assembly
for
Highh Council of Clans,
Confederated Clans of Free Bears of Bears Armed.

The Kingdom of Fulmaria, a new addition to the World Assembly, has voted for the Sentients Rights Act.

Why? Here in Fulmaria we believe in animal rights. In fact, even though the national species is the Blue Penguin, a protected species, the name derives from "Fulmar", which is a seabird.

If this act comes into force, all wildlife in Fulmaria will be declared "sapience", which the exception of the scavenger species, which will be declared "sentients".

We are for this act.

Regards,
The Kingdom of Fulmaria

The esteemed delegate from the glorious and very cultured region of New York, The Hirgizstanian Commonwealth of Victories, has voted "NO" to the current resolution up for vote. In solidarity with the region The Nifty Republic of Tzorsland will also vote no.

The Nifty Republic does not want to admit the mistakes of our past, especially in regards to the rumored creation of those dammnable creatures known as "werepenguins" who have been the subject of both books and plays and especially that one werepenguin known as "Flash Blonde." Therefore we must vote no and encourage all others to do likewise.

Do you want to recognize werepenguins? Think of the children. Vote no.

The USSC voted for this resolution, as the One Holy and Apostolic Church believes in and will continue to promote animal rights. Regardless of whether or not this resolution passes. the USSC will continue to protect her wildlife and funnel large amounts of money to support some of the nicest animal lodges (we prefer that name over shelters) in the entire world.

OOC: Although personally I find the idea of nations with talking bears and elves as absolutely ridiculous. To me, this is a political simulation game, not a fantasy game.

The USSC voted for this resolution, as the One Holy and Apostolic Church believes in and will continue to promote animal rights. Regardless of whether or not this resolution passes. the USSC will continue to protect her wildlife and funnel large amounts of money to support some of the nicest animal lodges (we prefer that name over shelters) in the entire world.

OOC: Although personally I find the idea of nations with talking bears and elves as absolutely ridiculous. To me, this is a political simulation game, not a fantasy game.

O.O.C. Go tell that to all the Narnian regions or the ones based in Tolkien or the ones set in the future with space armadas e.t.c. and the ones set in the past without whom ( human or not) vast chunks of this game simply would not exist. There would be your nation and a bunch of loony right wingers left behind, going on about how great extraordinary rendition is and what a marvel of nature Ronald Reagan was.

This is a game where you get to invent your own nation Full Stop. What people want to invent is up to them, not a bunch of Reality- Nazis. There is a mod comment in this thread which explains the situation quite neatly go and look it up.

As far as I know these things don't exist & those nations that claim that do not exist aswell. This is something a nation should make up it's mind about not a world gov't.

Otherwise this resolution is made by & approved by some Silly Deluded on Psychotropic Drugs Tree-Hugging Hippy Crap, who believe they are or there are Talking Animals with a comprehending mind to the point about as equal to a humans.

(OOC: Besided maybe some people's nations those things do not exist so why also ruin it for them, by saying walking talking human-like in behavior bears exist? Maybe a Animal Rights as in protecting their lives from cruel & not necessary deaths, not voting & doing what humans do, should be put up for a resolution.)

OOC: Although personally I find the idea of nations with talking bears and elves as absolutely ridiculous. To me, this is a political simulation game, not a fantasy game.

Read this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13892156&postcount=100), understand where you have failed in life, and try again.

This is ridiculous. Humans are different from animals- or any other "sentient being" that would qualify for this. If a gorilla commits a crime are we then going to take them to trial? If a dolphin breaks the law are we going to put them in jail? Well we can't give them the same rights as humans without the consequences of humans..... Not to mention the fact that we will have to deal with the issue of medical care for these "sentient beings". There are hundreds of thousands of people- even children- who do not have medical care and are dying from simple curable diseases. If these sentient beings are in essence given equal rights as humans, then we would probably have to give them medical care- further increasing the global demand for care that isn't even helping all the people on the planet- let alone these beings. Besides that, who's deciding if a creature's "sentient". Tomorrow a group of polititicians could decide that a cow is a sentient being or an ant. People could be persecuted for not being vegetarians or for killing a poisonous spider in their home. Special interest groups could be paid off to find "conclusive evidence" that something is sentient and this could spin out of control. What are we going to say when your daughter wants to marry a dolphin or a bear or an alien? Classifying non-humans into a group called "sentient beings" that somehow implies they are equal will provide a whole lot of problems.

This is ridiculous. Humans are different from animals- or any other "sentient being" that would qualify for this. If a gorilla commits a crime are we then going to take them to trial? If a dolphin breaks the law are we going to put them in jail? Well we can't give them the same rights as humans without the consequences of humans..... Not to mention the fact that we will have to deal with the issue of medical care for these "sentient beings". There are hundreds of thousands of people- even children- who do not have medical care and are dying from simple curable diseases. If these sentient beings are in essence given equal rights as humans, then we would probably have to give them medical care- further increasing the global demand for care that isn't even helping all the people on the planet- let alone these beings. Besides that, who's deciding if a creature's "sentient". Tomorrow a group of polititicians could decide that a cow is a sentient being or an ant. People could be persecuted for not being vegetarians or for killing a poisonous spider in their home. Special interest groups could be paid off to find "conclusive evidence" that something is sentient and this could spin out of control. What are we going to say when your daughter wants to marry a dolphin or a bear or an alien? Classifying non-humans into a group called "sentient beings" that somehow implies they are equal will provide a whole lot of problems.

Perhaps the noble ambassador might consider reading the debate fully before making the same silly comments on issues that have already been addressed? So happy would that make this poor Kriovaller this day.

Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of Krioval

This proposal is complete nonsense. I will not vote for somthing that is so unequivocally ridiculous as this resolution. If at first this meant synthetic human beings, then I would vote for this motion, however as it stands there are no sentient or sapient beings that are non-human. As such, on behalf of the government of Artheres, I vote against this and urge anyone reading this to do so also.
If this resolution should pass, I would fully support a repealment.

This proposal is complete nonsense. I will not vote for somthing that is so unequivocally ridiculous as this resolution. If at first this meant synthetic human beings, then I would vote for this motion, however as it stands there are no sentient or sapient beings that are non-human. As such, on behalf of the government of Artheres, I vote against this and urge anyone reading this to do so also.
If this resolution should pass, I would fully support a repealment.

The government of the emperor of Urgench is confused by the words of the respected ambassador. You mean to tell us that you believe in "synthetic" human beings what ever they may be, but you do not believe in non-himan sapients? How is it possible to reconcile this illogic? Surely if it is possible to synthesize human conciousness in a human form, it is possible for sapience to exist in any form no?

yours e.t.c. ,

I'm sorry, but this proposal is stupid. The moment it is passed a repeal will be proposed, and I will back it all the way.

This proposal is complete nonsense. I will not vote for somthing that is so unequivocally ridiculous as this resolution. If at first this meant synthetic human beings, then I would vote for this motion, however as it stands there are no sentient or sapient beings that are non-human. As such, on behalf of the government of Artheres, I vote against this and urge anyone reading this to do so also.
If this resolution should pass, I would fully support a repealment.

Wow. The inability of some nations' delegations to follow a debate never ceases to amaze me, even after all this time.

The question of whether or not there are non-human sentient/sapient beings has already been resolved. Just because they don't exist in your nation does not mean they don't exist in other NS nations. Do we need to tattoo that fact onto the bodies of some of our more clueless or stubborn fellow ambassadors before you finally get it? I also have to agree with my Urgenchi colleague when I ask, how do you recognize "synthetic" humans, yet not non-human sentients?

I'm sorry, but this proposal is stupid. The moment it is passed a repeal will be proposed, and I will back it all the way.

With respect, can you say why you think this resolution is stupid? Just saying that you think it's stupid isn't that nifty thing we like to call an argument.

-Jaris Krytellin, Ambassador

It is simple. Any animal on earth can't speak english, even if you're schizophrenic enough to believe that you're a talking bear. Synthetic humans on the other hand are ones that have a fully functioning sentient brain, and are self aware. For the sake of roleplaying, talking bears may exist, but I find this silly. Maybe we can have a separate WA for talking woodland animals.

We can talk about synthetics if a later proposal comes out, however since we're talking about sentient non-human animals, we should discuss the topic at hand.
If any talking bears came into my nation, I believe my government would recognize the bear as a person. However, I do not believe this should include other animals such as whales or chimpanzees, and I believe the whole point of the proposal was directly referring to such animals.

Much of what you have written is poppycockLike what? Oh well, never mind.
but one point must be addressed. There are many nations in the w.a. where humans are minorities, and where governments are formed by non-human sapients, would you consent to them using your model and divesting their human minorities of their rights and treating them as dumb beasts, torturing and missusing them?Yes. RK3 would never do such a thing; nor would most of our region-neighbors. And we propose to protect the rights of non-human sapients, whether biological or synthetic, within our borders.
But we think the W.A. should not adopt a resolution requiring all member nations to consider sapience as more important than humanity.

Indeed this principal could be used to rent asunder the very fabric of the w.a. pitching Humans and Non-humans into endless racial conflict.We doubt that rejecting this resolution would lead to such an abject and catastrophic failure and breakdown of the W.A.
A resolution to protect the rights of minorities in member nations, particularly those minorities which are a majority in some other member-nation, would be typical W.A. business.
This resolution isn't. It's a case of something the W.A. should butt out of and leave up to individual nations.
Within RK3, and we believe and expect within the Experiments region which we represent, this resolution will have little positive impact; most of our nations would protect the rights of non-human sapients anyway, and the ones who wouldn't aren't members of the W.A.
But it could have negative impact even in RK3 (not to mention other nations in our region). The places where it says "sentient" instead of "sapient" is one problem; the requirements to prefer the sapient rights of a non-human sapient over the human rights of a non-sapient human are another.

We are against it.

(In-character) We suspect the motives of any nation that votes for it.

(out-of-character) (We don't really. We just think our ambassador would say so if this were a real country and a real World Association.)

I'm sorry, but this proposal is stupid. The moment it is passed a repeal will be proposed, and I will back it all the way.

you're ignoring the fact that every time a proposal passes, at least one repeal (and normally more) shows up within 24 hours.

why is it stupid? defend your position!

Well, Krioval has dealt with this as follows: sapient individuals have full rights in the Great Chiefdom. Babies and severely mentally ill humans in Krioval are special cases: they belong to a class of normally sapient beings, but themselves lack sapience as is currently defined. As such, they have citizenship due to their membership in that class, but not all rights are conferred onto those populations. Babies and the severely mentally ill cannot, for example, vote or enter into contractual agreements.
Bonobos, chimpanzees, and dolphins do not rise to the level of sapience as Krioval understands the definition. Thus, they do not receive citizenship or the rights and responsibilities thereof. Some artificial intelligences in Krioval do possess these qualities, and are afforded full social and political rights.
Sapient non-human visitors to Krioval are treated as any foreign human visitor would be treated. This resolution reinforces policies already under effect in Krioval, then, and there are no inherent contradictions that we can find.This is good; Krioval makes up its own national mind which rights should be extended to humans regardless of sapience, and which rights should be extended to sapients regardless of humanity.
RK3, and/or some of our region-mates, would disagree with Krioval abouot bonobos and/or chimps and/or dolphins; but that's an internal matter within their own borders. They don't want to interfere in Krioval's legislative or judicial or administrative processes.

I would be most interested in knowing RK3's objections to our analysis, if any exist.The problem is that the resolution could be interpreted to require Krioval to protect the rights of, say, an artificial intelligence, even at the expense of the rights of, say, a mentally-ill human being (say a sufferer of Alzheimer's disease, or a sufferer of schizophrenia). We think it should be up to Krioval what to do in such cases; we don't think the W.A. should tell Krioval what it must do.

With all due respect, a corporation does not, in Krioval at the very least, possess either sentience or sapience, any more than any other contract would. While the shareholders of a corporation will certainly feel the pain when prices dip, the corporation as a whole does not writhe in agony.Corporations are not considered non-human sapients in RK3 either; but they are in some member-nations of our region.

I hope that my analysis was helpful to you.Yes, it was, very much so. Thanks.


Let me know if I have missed something.
Ambassador Darvek Tyvok-kan
Great Chiefdom of KriovalOne of my paragraphs above may apply -- if indeed you missed that. Otherwise I can't think of anything.

Thanks.

There it is written. Answer to yourself.
Just like 'Neutrality of nations' resolution, this will impact to our internal economies. Our administration will grow, taxes for this will be required.
We strongly disagree.

We'll have to inaugurate a Sentient Protection Society, this is also expensive for our citizen budget.
Your sense of uprightness towards other supposed smart life forms will alter the life of present, voting, hardworking life forms.
It is a cost we can't not afford.I really don't see where the problem is. First off, the resolution requires nothing of the sort, and second off, even if it did, you're free to decide that no sentient or sapient non-humans exist in your nation. And since you're one of those people (read: Godmoders) who claim they don't exist anywhere, then it shouldn't affect you anyway.

the requirements to prefer the sapient rights of a non-human sapient over the human rights of a non-sapient human are another.Again, where in the fucking proposal does it even say that?

The problem is that the resolution could be interpreted to require Krioval to protect the rights of, say, an artificial intelligence, even at the expense of the rights of, say, a mentally-ill human being (say a sufferer of Alzheimer's disease, or a sufferer of schizophrenia). We think it should be up to Krioval what to do in such cases; we don't think the W.A. should tell Krioval what it must do.It is up to Krioval, as the resolution clearly states, nations are the ones who decide what sapient and sentient lifeforms exist in their borders, and where they do, certain rights under international law must be extended to them. Nowhere does it state that you must prefer sentient/sapient beings over "non-sapient" humans, because this resolution does not apply to or affect human populations at all. It doesn't even mention AI or robotic intelligence, either; in fact, it specifically excludes such things. "Natural biological species" only.

Go back and read the proposal again, and don't bother us with any more of your uninformed ramblings until you have.

It is simple. Any animal on earth can't speak english, ...

Fascinating ... last time I checked humans were animals are they not? And yet you claim that any animal on earth can't speak english. Therefore, if I understand what logic demands, then the Grammar Nazi's are truely vindicated. None of you are really speaking english. Q.E.D.

"Polly want a cracker? Polly want a cracker?"

Shut up, you're not speaking english.

But we think the W.A. should not adopt a resolution requiring all member nations to consider sapience as more important than humanity.
Good thing it doesn't do that, then.

A resolution to protect the rights of minorities in member nations, particularly those minorities which are a majority in some other member-nation, would be typical W.A. business.
This resolution isn't. It's a case of something the W.A. should butt out of and leave up to individual nations.
::blinks:: But... but... it is! It is exactly and precisely protecting the rights of sapient non-human minorities in member nations, allowing that those sapient non-humans might be a majority in some other member nation. I can't believe that you managed to write something so obviously self-contradictory.

But it could have negative impact even in RK3 (not to mention other nations in our region). The places where it says "sentient" instead of "sapient" is one problem; the requirements to prefer the sapient rights of a non-human sapient over the human rights of a non-sapient human are another.
Show me where the resolution says anything about non-sapient humans. Anything at all. Then demonstrate any logical connection between that and your claim. I can assure you, the only connection you'll be able to find is that you're wrong.

(In-character) We suspect the motives of any nation that votes for it.
Don't make me come over there and slap you, sunshine.

(out-of-character) (We don't really. We just think our ambassador would say so if this were a real country and a real World Association.)
OOC: Heh. You can't serious expect Cerys (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13864932&postcount=18) not to rise to that.

The Three Imperium, being an exclusively human nation, recognizes that this does not apply to the Imperium. However, we the Barician Imperium support this resolution, in solidarity with the thousands of nations throughout the Nationstates Multiverse, vote YES on this resolution.

In the Name of the Imperium, by order of the Emperor
Barician Imperium PT
Foreign Secretariat

In the Name of the Emperor, by Order of the Lord High Chancellor
Barician Imperium MT
Ministry of Foreign Affairs

By consent of the Twelve Systems, so ordered by the Empress
Barician Imperium FT
Foreign Ministry

DEPARTMENT OF WORLD ASSEMBLY COMPLIANCE

RK3, and/or some of our region-mates, would disagree with Krioval abouot bonobos and/or chimps and/or dolphins; but that's an internal matter within their own borders. They don't want to interfere in Krioval's legislative or judicial or administrative processes.

Fortunately, under this proposal, it is up to the member nations to determine who and/or what are sapient beings.

The problem is that the resolution could be interpreted to require Krioval to protect the rights of, say, an artificial intelligence, even at the expense of the rights of, say, a mentally-ill human being (say a sufferer of Alzheimer's disease, or a sufferer of schizophrenia). We think it should be up to Krioval what to do in such cases; we don't think the W.A. should tell Krioval what it must do.

Where exactly could it be interpreted to say that mentally ill human beings would suffer reduced rights in any circumstance?

Corporations are not considered non-human sapients in RK3 either; but they are in some member-nations of our region.

Then one assumes that those nations would determine corporations to be non-human sapients while yours would not.

It is simple. Any animal on earth can't speak english

The ability to speak one human language is hardly a determinant of sentience. And even many of the ambassadors here who claim to speak English do a piss-poor job of it. So what's your point?

Maybe we can have a separate WA for talking woodland animals.

I'd rather have a "separate" WA for those who would deprive sentient beings of their rights, and for those who are so clueless that they couldn't find their rear ends with a map, a GPS system, a guided tour and a trip itinerary. But that's not going to happen either.

We can talk about synthetics if a later proposal comes out, however since we're talking about sentient non-human animals, we should discuss the topic at hand.

Yes! Let's do that! What exactly is your rationale for denying sentient non-humans rights, other than the ever-so-logical sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and going "lalalala I don't see them or hear them so they don't exist lalalala"?

If any talking bears came into my nation, I believe my government would recognize the bear as a person.

Then perhaps our colleagues from Bears Armed should pay your nation a visit. That might wake your citizens up, eh?

However, I do not believe this should include other animals such as whales or chimpanzees, and I believe the whole point of the proposal was directly referring to such animals.

If those beings wandered into your nation, and were sentient, would you then recognize them and thus recognize the foolishness of your position?

-Jaris Krytellin, Ambassador

This proposal is complete nonsense. I will not vote for somthing that is so unequivocally ridiculous as this resolution. I vote against this and urge anyone reading this to do so also.
If this resolution should pass, I would fully support a repealment.

Indeed I fully agree on those points. But we may yet stop this resolution from passing. It will probably go down to the wire.

And Steppes name me a real species on the same level as humans on this planet, And stop with the High Fantasy games. And since you can't do you see the foolishness of your position?

Indeed I fully agree on those points. But we may yet stop this resolution from passing. It will probably go down to the wire.

And Steppes name me a real species on the same level as humans on this planet, And stop with the High Fantasy games. And since you can't do you see the foolishness of your position?

OOC: Okay, seriously. This is getting ridiculous. You don't seem to understand the concept of roleplay. Please don't force the moderators to get involved again.

Although I may be a new member of the WA, it seems to me that sentient species, while not being human themselves, can still think, reason, and act like we can. If we were in their shoes, would we want our rights taken away?

The only logical course of action at this point would be to vote yes.

-Ambassador Couture
San Marchaine

OOC:

Much of the 'debate' on this still seems misplaced. If you don't recognise non-human sapients in your roleplay, ok, but why should everyone be forced to go by your standards?

If you don't recognise non-human sapients, can't you at least discuss their possibility? I've seen plenty of people argue 'they don't exist'. Almost no one has presented a reason why 'if they do exist, they shouldn't have these rights' (those that have have coupled it with grotesque misreading of the proposal) which is surely the more interesting question. Were these creatures to exist, would this proposal be the best approach? And if so, is there any active harm done by passing it, even in the absence of evidence of the existence of such creatures?

Above all, in a roleplaying game whose game architecture contains numerous non-RL aspects, including technologies and species that do not exist in RL, why have such a bug about this? Especially given in the world of roleplay numerous violations of basic engineering, basic economics, and basic common sense can be routinely observed, and are allowed to go unremarked upon.

Finally, none, not one, of the people complaining about this being a waste of time has written, submitted, and seriously campaigned for a proposal of their own, on which grounds, shut up. Your own legislative sloth and colossal ineptitude at what is a fairly simple game is not an excuse for voting, petutantly, against those who are able to connect fingers to keyboard in a coordinated pattern.

And Steppes name me a real species on the same level as humans on this planet, And stop with the High Fantasy games. And since you can't do you see the foolishness of your position?

OOC: Wencee, if you want to talk about things that are on the same planet, we could easily talk about you, and the point that many people here (including mods) have tried to make to you and those with your inane position, namely that non-humans DO exist in this game regardless of your continued bleating that they do not. It's painfully obvious that you, and the point in question, are not on the same planet, and quite possibly not even in the same universe. Your cluelessness, however, still doesn't constitute a valid argument against this resolution, nor does it even make any sense.

Don't bother me until you have a valid argument to make.

Hear, hear, hope this will change some of the way people debate this.

Indeed, if you are against this proposal, tell what is wrong about the proposal if such species could exist or what is wrong about this proposal if such creatures does not exist inside your nation. If you want to live in some real world, maybe address your concerns to the UN. If you want to be active in NationStates, please accept what is going on here and address to the WA.

Try to change that is OK, but do not tell things do not exist here, because intelligent non humans EXIST here. If we like it or not. I rather see some nations telling non humans need to be slaves or killed, because it is a valid argument (but as an anarchist I hate such views), but that is something INSIDE NationStates.

Hopefully this is understandable. I thank the Ambassador from Quintessence of Dust for trying to change how the debate is going.

Regards

The whirring of gears and the clanking of metal fills the General Assembly, growing louder with each moment and joined increasingly by a sound quite similar to someone stirring a bowl of very cheesy macaroni.

Into the assembly and towards the podium lurches a gigantic figure-

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/kuroutesshin/15.jpg

Members stare in horror and the creature before them, a gigantic squid seemingly supported by two humanoid robotic legs, slithering and lumbering through the aisles of the chamber, leaving a trail of mucous and water behind. Its two eyes rove about the room, occasionaly making contact with members and staring into their soul.

Heaving itself up the steps to the podium and splashing the parliamentarians with a mixture of slime and axle grease, it adjusts the microphone with a prehensile tentacle and clears its... er, whatever sort of "throat" thing it has. A deep, gurgling voice broadcasts over the assembled delegates.

"I am b'sYA'jodih"Kho',ME"ah, of the Viss'T. I am here to speak in support of Sentient Rights.

"For many years my people were hunted and captured as food, treated as little more than chattel to feed the hunger of mankind. Our intelligence and society were regarded as a falsehood, a fiction created by enemies of the fisheries to harm them. The art, architecture, and civilization of my people was ignored, and were treated as nothing more than a material to be harvested.

"I think. I reason. I speak, as do all of my people. We have religion, we have art and music, and we have philosophy. Only our appearance, and apparently the taste of our flesh, separates us from humans. As I gaze around this assembly, I see the open mouths of misunderstanding, the disgust of hatred, and in the case of the delegates of Wencee, fingers jammed in ears and eyes squinched shut, pretending as if I am not here.

"What does it matter that my people have the same rights as you? We will never travel to your lands. There is no harm in ensuring that, in all Assembly nations, there is the guarantee that the rights given to all humans are extended to all thinking creatures. If you have no intelligent bears, or talking sheep, or Viss'T, why oppose this bill?

"I have come to you today from my home in the seas to plead your support, but I come also with a warning. Those nations that continue to labor in ignorance and hate will be punished, with the Great Inky Death. Our tentacles are indeed long, and their suckers filled with teeth. You may deny us our rights, but you cannot deny us the pleasure of masticating human flesh as your people once did to us.

Vote aye. Vote with reason.

b'sYA'jodih"Kho',ME"ah

The problem is that the resolution could be interpreted to require Krioval to protect the rights of, say, an artificial intelligence,

You look like you could use some intelligence, artificial or otherwise. The proposal states quite clearly
Declares that member nations shall determine which biological species residing in their own borders possess sentient or sapient qualities,AI aren't a biological species.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w166/bak42/statler_waldorf.jpg
Statler & Waldorf
WA Representatives (pro tem)

I have been playing NS for a while but this my first time posting on the forums.

“Noting that this legislation applies only to natural biological sapient species”

What about non-natural and non-biological sapient species? All beings that can fall under the classifications (including non-natural and non-biological species/beings) “sapience” and "sentience" should have the same rights as humans, because if they are not protected they will be most likely used as slaves; An example of this is to slightly change the genetic code of a human so that it is not “natural” then use it for slave labor including I might add, as a sex slave.

I motion that the Sentients Rights Act should extend to all “sapience” and "sentience" species/beings including the non-natural and non-biological species/beings and that said “sapience” and "sentience" species/beings (including humans) should be given the title of “Free Entities” showing the full extent of the equality that other species/beings share with humans.

Sincerely,
Drakcon

OOC: ...

I really love when people take their definition of sentient from Star Wars.

Sentient and sapient are not interchangable words. Sentience means the ability to feel pain, while sapience means "to have wisdom", or to be self-aware. Protecting sentient beings would make killing, say, cows, illegal. The resolution needs to be rejected and reworded.

i find this resolution rather silly. human get human rights. non humans do not.

the government of palsada votes a big fat NAY!

If this resolution allows a nation to determine which species are what, then what is the point? A nation that doesn't want to extend human rights to others has a gaping loophole. There is nothing more than meaningless fluff to this proposal.

Whilst the government of my Nation has sent a human ambassador as their representative to the WA, that species is a minority. The majority of the population are black cats, and they are fully sentient beings (and cute on top of that :-P ).
Anyway, our nation's human representative has been issued to vote FOR (for his own good).
PS: Not that it matters anyway, we will protect all sentient life in our nation, and even some that is not, regardless of the outcome of this resolution.

"Were these creatures to exist, would this proposal be the best approach?" They don't.. This is a political simulation game- Not a make up a species that does not exist then pass a resolution to give it rights game..I am sure there is a High Fantasy place for that out there.. I'm sorry I really do find this as many many have said 'silly' You might as well ask "were pigs to have wings, and this proposal would give them a license to fly, wouldn't it be the best proposa?l" They don't have wings there for it doesn't exist so it comes across as 'silly' to pass a resolution on it.

OoC:
It's actually a political satire, and one that does indeed make mention of non-human sapients in it's issues. Therefore that argument holds about as much water as a seive. Furthermore, in the roleplay side of the game, which WA resolutions are as relevant to as the gameplay side, there are nations of elves, talking dolphins who swear a lot, inflatable gandalfs, exploding penguins. Now if you don't understand the spirit of the game (which this resolutions is in keeping with), don't start whinging like a brat after a hard spanking.

Indeed I fully agree on those points. But we may yet stop this resolution from passing. It will probably go down to the wire.

And Steppes name me a real species on the same level as humans on this planet, And stop with the High Fantasy games. And since you can't do you see the foolishness of your position?


This is not the real world ( O.O.C. unless you really believe that in the real world you actually are the creator of a world called Wencee and that you also represent it at a real world World Assembly that is ) and all references to it are essentialy irrelevant here. Indeed references to it are illegal in resolutions so far as we are aware. Why should the highly respected ambassador for the Altan Steppes engage in your desire to elaborate on fairy tales and legends?

Read this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13892156&postcount=100), understand where you have failed in life, and try again.

The USSC and the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church supports this resolution fully, as we support the rights of all of God's creatures. We wish to see no holocaust of humans or intelligent, non-human animals

OOC: Thanks for the tip, I am now to the game, but Christ you like to talk down to people. I've been playing this for like a week, come on.

and if you meant sieve, the tool that acts mostly as a filter. You're quite right filters dont hold water.

And You're quite right, I will not ask you to elaborate on your fairy tales, to wearying for us both. We are not going to change each other on this lol........ on the plus side its nearly over.

Khan Mongkha turns to his assistant Tarmashirin who looks distinctly grey and frightened and whispers " I am pig sick of this Imbecile Barbarian, have you contacted the shaman? " , Tarmashirin shivers and says " Yes honoured Khan".

I was amazed this even made it to a vote.. This seems silly.. and I dont see a way for science to prove any of the demands.. "Birds chirp so they are highly intelligent" .. They also fly into windows thinking there is nothing there.. This has been put to a vote in my region.. With myself voting no.

This to me a pointless resolution.

Yours
Delegate of La Mafia

A good argument against? How about that the "resolution is without point lol I think that is a fairly good one.. This proves we can't keep the clutter out of the WA

There are? I was unaware I thought they were all human.. wait yes they are lol... My region votes no to clutter resolution.

Just another sign of the decline of NS and the WA sigh~

Oh I have played off and on since 2004, Nor to be frank do I really care what you have to say about me or my character. And you know it seems only the original supporters of this resolution still support it in this forum. Just posting.. And forgive me yet again, And I Criticize* other peoples 'work' if you call this *waves hand in motion at the current resolution and the next one on Nomads* Work. It's more like people just passing things for the sake of passing them, and people vote for things that have either good titles or because they like to be 'apart' of passing things. yet this bill Votes For: 983
Votes Against: 753 - surprisingly close for a change. I Criticize, what should be spoken to. Maybe you should try to do some yourself.. And not just to those who disagree with your friends bills. As for knowing the process I know it well- but I doubt highly you will find much to my name in the WA or to anyones really. Or many of my older names.





Bozo indeed, at least I can spell and think for myself. To say it isn't declining is to be blind- People are simply waiting for NS2 and then this will flicker like a candle and simply go out.

Many in both crowds find the other side laughable.. I find your final comment "but we'll cast our vote FOR just so we can't be associated with the laughable against crowd" fairly laughable myself.

But on to a more important matter. As this ..resolution states that the nations decide.. Why do we even need this resolution. Just let the nations decide as they will, if they deem it prudent or necessary.

I hope I do jinx it >_> but I sort of doubt any jinx would work as ive seen far more with the lead win then lose

Indeed I fully agree on those points. But we may yet stop this resolution from passing. It will probably go down to the wire.

And Steppes name me a real species on the same level as humans on this planet, And stop with the High Fantasy games. And since you can't do you see the foolishness of your position?

"Were these creatures to exist, would this proposal be the best approach?" They don't.. This is a political simulation game- Not a make up a species that does not exist then pass a resolution to give it rights game..I am sure there is a High Fantasy place for that out there.. I'm sorry I really do find this as many many have said 'silly' You might as well ask "were pigs to have wings, and this proposal would give them a license to fly, wouldn't it be the best proposa?l" They don't have wings there for it doesn't exist so it comes across as 'silly' to pass a resolution on it.

and if you meant sieve, the tool that acts mostly as a filter. You're quite right filters dont hold water.

And You're quite right, I will not ask you to elaborate on your fairy tales, to wearying for us both. We are not going to change each other on this lol........ on the plus side its nearly over.

Glog watches the Wencee ambassador closely. He thinks he notices something unnervingly familiar, but can't quite put his finger on it.

"Look like human. Glog not sure though. Maybe human, maybe...worse."

Cautiously, he inches closer to the Wencean for closer inspection.

"Look like human. Move like human. Sound like human."

Glog moves a bit closer, finally getting close enough to smell the creature.

"Smell like...."

When Glog was a child, his tribe was attacked by a race of giant, disgusting non-humans. He still remembered the smell of them. After a particularly violent raid on Glog's village, the elders told stories around the campfire of how these beasts could mate with humans and produce fully human-looking offspring. Glog never learned if they could crossbreed with neanderthals, but he doubted it.

This beast before him, which looked so convincingly human, was actually a....

"....TROLL!!!

Glog shrieks, then leaps through the air, landing atop the Wencean ambassador. He tackles the weretroll, gets to his feet, drags it across the room, and throws it out the window.

Yelling down at the stunned Wencean, Glog says:

"Troll live under bridge like rat. Glog live in cave like decent person. Go back under bridge you came from! Leave WA people alone!"

Glog Firemaker, son of Glog Crushdogskullwithrock

OOC: Wencee, I was tempted for awhile to compare you to trolls that have roamed this forum in the past (who shall go un-named), but there's a difference. Some of them were smart. They could actually concoct a seemingly credible argument while conducting their trolling. Some of them were in fact masters of the "art". You are an amateur. Go back to the Troll Academy for more lessons.

In Aztor, much like Wencee and this mythical "real world", there are no sentient creatures with the possible exception of humans. However, they obviously do exist in some nations.

OOC: I don't consider this "High Fantasy". I see other intelligent species as adding an interesting touch to things, but this is still a political game, and the Armed Bears & foul-mouthed dolphins are doing the same things as us humans - arguing. :p

It seems to me like glog should mind his tongue. As you yourself have done nothing but repeat your points over and over in fact thats what everyone here is doing over and over again, and will continue to do so until this is finished. So go look in the mirror before you call me a troll.

And glog go back to your cave. Because I truly could honestly not care any less for your views. That is something ive been tempted to tell you to do for quite sometime myself

Also Urgench threats arent nice lol even if they are simply implied.

Mongkha whispers to his assistant, " Send the orders to the shaman, i will take great pleasure in knowing this barbarian who dishonours himself and everyone around him everytime he opens his mouth will never know happiness again. "
The Khans assistant's eyes are wide with fear as he leaves the chamber to make a call to the wilds of Baikalia, the empire's last outpost of dark superstition and wicked magic.

Threats against delegates .. Very wise Urgench very wise. The one without honor isn't me, non avete onore.

We are not making threats against the honoured ambassador for Wencee, his own conceit allows him to believe that our private conversations about internal Urgenchi politics are about him. We would apreciate it if he ceased making wild accusations.

yours e.t.c. ,

Indeed what threats do you imagine we have made against a delegate? We have made non. We certainly would never threaten your person. I ordered my assistant to see to sending you gifts of great worth only yesterday to apologise for our loss of equilibrium with you during the debate here at an earlier date. We only wish you luck and would never wish you ill. As you may see by our comments here http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=553126&page=19

We apologise if there has been any confusion.

Yours e.t.c. ,

So its all just coincidence? hmmmm well the imagined threats were Mongkha whispers to his assistant, " Send the orders to the shaman, i will take great pleasure in knowing this barbarian who dishonours himself and everyone around him everytime he opens his mouth will never know happiness again. "
The Khans assistant's eyes are wide with fear as he leaves the chamber to make a call to the wilds of Baikalia, the empire's last outpost of dark superstition and wicked magic. That followed the delegates statements ><

It seems to me like glog should mind his tongue.
( all OOC )

When a Mod tells me to I will. Are you a mod? I didn't fucking think so.

As you yourself have done nothing but repeat your points over and over <snip>
Where? Show me where I've repeated myself. Can't find it? That's because I haven't.

So go look in the mirror before you call me a troll.
Ah, the old "I know you are but what am I" tactic. Nice try. Amateur.

Again what threats have we made? we feel that you are begining to see this whole debate as being about you. It is about the rights of Sapients. We apologise that our conversation was overheard but it was not a threat and was certainly not about you.

Yours e.t.c. ,

we feel that you are beggining to see this whole debate as being about you.
Of course he is. Just let it go. When you stop feeding them they go away.

Glog its not an old tactic, I just don't give a damn what you have to say. So close your mouth when it has to do with me. And do mind the language
As for you repeating your points go back and read them yourself, each time you mutter something you use the same method to dismiss the question against the resolution. As for me Reading your posts is draining on the eyes.


"we feel that you are beggining to see this whole debate as being about you. "

Nah I have never seen this debate about me so you don't have to worry about that

Only when the attacks start does it briefly become about the two people arguing (or more)

this means nothing i dont want to see an ape testifying in court an i don't want to see people trying to get sentinent species (dolphins orangutangs elephants) voting this is horrible the person who wrote this should be shot, burned, skinned burned again, drowned hanged drawn and quartered then shot again then run over by a train then fed to wolves then put into a coffin then burn the coffin saying "the power of christ compells you!

To clarify, my conversation with my assistant concerned an under secretary within the Urgenchi ministry for foreign affairs. This individual has been discovered to be a member of an extreme racist banned organisation. This individual was so disgusted by the possibility that this resolution might protect the rights of non-human sapients that he accused me of betraying my emperor to the minister for foreign affairs.

It is significant that this individual should be the type that would find this resolution so horrifying. Bigotted and predjudiced persons were always bound to be.

I was very upset with the false accusations made by this sick individual and have seen to my own personal defence in the tribunal that will ensue. The shaman you may have heard me mention is a friend of mine from law school.

This resolution is about compassion, freedom and legislative rectitude. It's support should be axiomatic for all right thinking and decent nations. We urge all well meaning and perceptive nations to vote yes to it.

yours e.t.c. ,

This resolution is crap. On behalf of The Conservative Coalition I denounce this travesty and hope and pray for its defeat.

This bill .. now that I have read is vague, and as Kazzan says pointless.

OOC: ...

I really love when people take their definition of sentient from Star Wars.

Sentient and sapient are not interchangable words. Sentience means the ability to feel pain, while sapience means "to have wisdom", or to be self-aware. Protecting sentient beings would make killing, say, cows, illegal. The resolution needs to be rejected and reworded.

Logically also OOC:

Apparently you need to learn to read. The resolution defines its terms, and doesn't use them interchangeably. It's actually pretty blindingly clear about it, so I don't know where you're getting this idea that your definitions apply.

I really don't see where the problem is. First off, the resolution requires nothing of the sort, and second off, even if it did, you're free to decide that no sentient or sapient non-humans exist in your nation. And since you're one of those people (read: Godmoders) who claim they don't exist anywhere, then it shouldn't affect you anyway.

Again, where in the fucking proposal does it even say that?I've remarked one foolish redundance and I'm responding with a true: I can do this already, so why you ask me to accept a law to do something I can do already (answering redundance).

I'm closing the arguing seeing you do not recognizes my point, thus you have not been able to respond with a statement. This proposal will have a negative impact on the internal policies of my nation.

1. You can't ask me to vote for nonexistent things "just in case of" that get to happen. As I've exposed in forum.

2. Administration cost to form any kind of government institution to declare "beings" sentient/sapient/not. You are fooling me saying this is not going to cost me. I've post that in forum, in compare to 'neutrality of nations'.

3. The just existence of another kind of intelligence between my population, threat my government stability and should be annihilated, thus the attribution of any rights to this consciousness will be just a annoying waste of time.

*a short, white-furred creature with a red pom pom on it's head entered the hall flanked by 20 similar creatures*

Kupo! Kupo kupo, kupo. Kupo po po po kupo!

*Mog turns towards the delegate from Wencee*

KUPO! Kupo ku kupo po po. Kupo!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w166/bak42/moogle.jpg
Mog
Moogle Chieftain

OOC: The Moogles are completely sentient, Mog just only speaks Moogle.

Logically also OOC:

Apparently you need to learn to read. The resolution defines its terms, and doesn't use them interchangeably. It's actually pretty blindingly clear about it, so I don't know where you're getting this idea that your definitions apply.OOC: Point conceded, I skimmed the resolution. However, the fact that it does define sentience as it does makes it a worse resolution than I had thought, since it could be used to ban the eating of certain kinds of meat.

OOC: Point conceded, I skimmed the resolution. However, the fact that it does define sentience as it does makes it a worse resolution than I had thought, since it could be used to ban the eating of certain kinds of meat.This has already been addressed, and no, it can't be used for that. Not only do nations decide whether the sentience label applies within their own borders, but the measures to protect sentient species should be "prudent and necessary." If banning certain meat production is neither, then there's no need to resort to it.

Sorry, but your English skills are seriously substandard. I responded to the portions I thought I understood.

I've remarked one foolish redundance and I'm responding with a true: I can do this already, so why you ask me to accept a law to do something I can do already (answering redundance).I'm not asking you to vote for something you can do already; I'm simply telling you that your concerns are moot, since you don't recognize non-human sentience anyway.

2. Administration cost to form any kind of government institution to declare "beings" sentient/sapient/not. You are fooling me saying this is not going to cost me. I've post that in forum, in compare to 'neutrality of nations'.I have no idea what the in-game effects of "Neutrality" were, but this resolution would be different, because it's in a different category. It's the category and strength that adjusts your stats after the passage of a resolution, not the requirements of the proposal itself. And Gameplay effects can always be reversed by Daily Issues, so it's pretty silly to vote against something on that basis.

This resolution is crap. On behalf of The Conservative Coalition I denounce this travesty and hope and pray for its defeat.

This bill .. now that I have read is vague, and as Kazzan says pointless.

The gigantic squid-creature perched precariously on the speaker's podium, shudders and emits a great guttural honking sound. The robotic legs supporting it's massive cephalopodic head suddenly spring a leak, shooting murky hydraulic fluid all over the first rows of the assembly.

"Foolish humans! Vague! Pointless! I am tempted to have you all declared as non-sentient beings and churned into fish paste for the frozen food industry! Then, perhaps you will know the pain of a species without rights! Vague! Foolishness!"

I've remarked one foolish redundance and I'm responding with a true: I can do this already, so why you ask me to accept a law to do something I can do already (answering redundance).

I'm closing the arguing seeing you do not recognizes my point, thus you have not been able to respond with a statement. This proposal will have a negative impact on the internal policies of my nation.

1. You can't ask me to vote for nonexistent things "just in case of" that get to happen. As I've exposed in forum.

2. Administration cost to form any kind of government institution to declare "beings" sentient/sapient/not. You are fooling me saying this is not going to cost me. I've post that in forum, in compare to 'neutrality of nations'.

3. The just existence of another kind of intelligence between my population, threat my government stability and should be annihilated, thus the attribution of any rights to this consciousness will be just a annoying waste of time.

More of the honking drowns out the ambassador from the Falling Hammer, and the speaker begins clacking his gigantic beak angrily.

"Folly! Why did you join the World Assembly if your laws already cover the areas we legislate on? Are you, perhaps, a non-sentient human incapable of logic? I would like to catch you with a fishhook and serve you raw with rice!

"Danger to your government! Danger to your government! Foolish human, the sludge that congeals in the back of your freezer and discourses on Kant is not a danger! It is the non-sentient humans that pervade this assembly that are a danger! They jaywalk! They steal! The ingest illegal substances, and lay clutches of eggs in place they should not! Are these actions the actions of an intelligent species? I think not!"

"What does it cost you to incarcerate so-called "intelligent" humans? I would simply eat them. It costs you nothing to find smarter species and persuade them to join your nations, they are clearly much smarter than the citizens you already have!"

The creature stops speaking, raises several tentacles and shudders, shooting a jet of black ink onto the ambassador from The Fallen Hammer.

"Silly human! Your illogical ways demonstrate a lack of intelligence in your subspecies! You shall be deep-fried in light batter and served with a lemon sauce!"

OOC: Point conceded, I skimmed the resolution. However, the fact that it does define sentience as it does makes it a worse resolution than I had thought, since it could be used to ban the eating of certain kinds of meat.

"Argh! When your cut the cow, does it scream back and beg for sweet mercy? Does it complain of it's wife and cowlings at home? No! The cow cannot think. The cow cannot rationalize why it eats the grass and defecates in the field. But if the cow arrives at Farmer John's porthole and asks his opinion of the Estate Tax, what then? Eat meat that speaks! What a foolish human suggestion!

"Argh! You non-sentient humans are so infuriating! I wish you didn't exist!"

The squid-creature rises up on it's robotic legs, the leak springing furiously. He swings his tentacles about angrily, swiping at delegates and knocking light fixtures out. Honking wildly, he shoots more ink out, covering hundreds of delegates in a cloud of black, sticky fluid.

If this resolution allows a nation to determine which species are what, then what is the point? A nation that doesn't want to extend human rights to others has a gaping loophole. There is nothing more than meaningless fluff to this proposal.Look, it's hard enough to legislate on sapient rights in an environment that's notoriously hostile to them, without making it seem like nations don't even have a choice as to what species apply. If we had made an international committee that called all the shots and forced nations to apply its findings, this resolution would be failing by an even larger margin than it is now. We made a compromise, and we thought people would find it sensible: allow nations the choice, but require them to be fair about it. You'll find that the third clause is not a gaping loophole, not free license to do what you want; it contains plenty of provisos to prevent abuse.

And let's not forget "reasonable nation" theory, either...

*Mouth agape, Lord Faolan watches the squid creature go on a rampage. He turns to his fellow representatives from the Kingdom of Gruatha with a questioning look*

Well boys, anything in those cigars you forgot to tell me about?

I wonder if talking squid and giant attacks are commonplace in WA. This place is none for violence, and because of the inability for these creatures to keep cool only further proves my point. Countries of the Delegates and Ambassadors who partake in violence should be ejected from the WA. This is a place for civilized talk not threats.

Sorry, but your English skills are seriously substandard. I responded to the portions I thought I understood.
I appreciate the efforts since isn't my prime language (I'm been honest, not ironic)

I'm not asking you to vote for something you can do already Even practicing another language, I can read that yes, you are. (basicly at least)

Gameplay effects can always be reversed by Daily Issues, so it's pretty silly to vote against something on that basis.You cannot convince me consoling me with the idea of “will be fixed more ahead, while playing”

I would like to catch you with a fishhook and serve you raw with rice!Actually, if you approve the proposal, you wont be able. Because our ambassador would be catalogued as sentient or leaved and -in my nation- your people will be annihilated as explained in the third point of my last statement.

Regards.

Having been telegrammed twice petitions to support this particular resolution, I believe I should make my response public.

Xanthal prides itself upon the diversity and equity that has characterized it for centuries. Unfortunately, there are two main issues that prevent me from voting in favor of the resolution as written. Understand that it would give me great pleasure to reverse my vote were these issues sufficiently addressed.

First, the definition of sentience is, as I read it, highly difficult to apply to a judgement of any given species. How is one to test what a being perceives? In fact, I suspect it is meant to define sentience as HAVING self-awareness, not simply being able to perceive it, but the grammatical ambiguity is unnecessary and constitutes a fundamental weakness in the law. If the wording is correct as written, I would argue that species that are merely conscious, which would include nearly every type of fauna on record, should not be afforded such strong protection of life.

Second, and more urgent to my mind, is the requirement that all sapients have rights "on a par" with humans. This wording is ambiguous by nature and may be read to mean that all sapient species should be subject to the same rights and responsibilities as are humans. Inevitably, cultural imperialists will be inclined to push for that interpretation. It is a core belief of my society and in many cases a biological fact that not all species, even sapient species, have the same needs or display the same behavioral patterns as humans. Parity in laws for different species should be pursued where practical, but should not rise to the level of dogma, especially where such parity could irreparably damage a sapient species' legitimate cultural characteristics or quality of life.

I wonder if talking squid and giant attacks are commonplace in WA. This place is none for violence, and because of the inability for these creatures to keep cool only further proves my point. Countries of the Delegates and Ambassadors who partake in violence should be ejected from the WA. This is a place for civilized talk not threats.

Of course you are right honoured ambassador, however if we eject those you speak of it would only be fair to eject the imbecilic ambassadors who's presence here is an insult to the intellect and just as grave a threat to peace.

yours e.t.c. ,

I wonder if talking squid and giant attacks are commonplace in WA. This place is none for violence, and because of the inability for these creatures to keep cool only further proves my point. Countries of the Delegates and Ambassadors who partake in violence should be ejected from the WA. This is a place for civilized talk not threats.


Ohohohohoh! You must be new here. I recall there was a time when the moronic mouth-breathers were cast out the windows of this place, or thousands of mechanical rabbits assisted a reanimated Communist official in a dogfight with a canine.

Calm, reasoned debate? You've never heard of Moltan Bausch or Rono Pyandran? Did you know that Cmdr. Chiang takes ambassadors hostage by seducing them and then druggin their drinks so she can investigate their offices? Or any number of the insane, violent, and mentally unbalanced things that have been done in this assembly?

Calm, reasoned debate? I direct you to the record for the discussion on "Repeal: Gay Rights." I need say no more.

Wens Foroun
etc.

I wonder if talking squid and giant attacks are commonplace in WA. This place is none for violence, and because of the inability for these creatures to keep cool only further proves my point. Countries of the Delegates and Ambassadors who partake in violence should be ejected from the WA. This is a place for civilized talk not threats.

Of course you are right honoured ambassador, however if we eject those you speak of it would only be fair to eject the imbecilic ambassadors who's presence here is an insult to the intellect and just as grave a threat to peace.
Civilised talk does not include writing off large sections of this organisation as dumb animals or non-existant and insulting them in the process.

yours e.t.c. ,

Those who cannot make a point without violence are more imbecilic than those even with the most extreme views.

Talking about ejecting people does anyone know if my post was deleted?

Those who cannot make a point without violence are more imbecilic than those even with the most extreme views.

The squid-creature shakes like agitated pudding, the snapping his beak.

"My people have felt the bite of this fishhook before! Our peaceful and happy folk lived happily until man tasted our flesh. They didn't even listen to us! Of course we couldnt' speak their language... but we were still intelligent!

"Of course, sometimes we had no recourse but to swarm the trawlers and drag them to their Great Inky Doom. How could we not, looking at the great atrocities they committed... look what they did to my Uncle p,hP'aHU"toNk!"

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/kuroutesshin/Mesonychoteuthis_hamiltoni_2003.jpg

"My mantle aches when I think of the stupidity of people who can't understand things bigger than their small little minds. That may be my gas bladder acting up, though.

*snip*

"You believe you are being funny and that you are correctly reading this legislation. The only thing that can be said is that you are not, and that many have told you the same. Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, even though you have been told it is wrong.

"Begone! Else I shall boil you alive and eat you with butter!"

The great leviathan squid arches its tentacles flailing out into the audience. It's quite clear he can't control them quite well as in the water, and he accidentally grabs the bosoms of an ample Thessadorian office page, and lifts her into the air with his suckers, waving about madly. Ink squirts from some unknown orifice, spraying the walls as the speaker undulates, thwacking the gnomes that are trying to repair his hyrdaulic legs.

The delegates who didn't flee the immediate vicinity of the fluid and mucous-covered podium are now struggling to gain a footing and clear their glasses of the thick, black goop drenching the chairs. After a moment, he sets the Thessadorian down and stops honking.

"Oh! Oh! but I must control myself! This is not how a rational being behaves. Forgive me, forgive me.

"I urge you again, support this legislation. Support equality for all, no matter where they are from. Think of the mollusks!

Those who cannot make a point without violence are more imbecilic than those even with the most extreme views.


Not true unfortunately. The most extreme forms of verbal bigotry and predjudice constitute violence of a spiritual and intellectual nature, which many nations choose to treat as crimes and which inveriably cause physical forms of violence to be meeted out on their victims. Besides if you were a talking bear who's right to live were denied would you not fight for it?

yours e.t.c. ,

what????????????

dude what ever you took out of my rainforest,i want to smoke with you.

seriously.....what in the hell was that waste of two minutes of my valuable time,i have a country to run,no time to waste on garbage like that

what????????????

dude what ever you took out of my rainforest,i want to smoke with you.

seriously.....what in the hell was that waste of two minutes of my valuable time,i have a country to run,no time to waste on garbage like that

Whom are you addressing honoured ambassador? Who is this dude you refer to?

yours e.t.c. ,