NationStates Jolt Archive

UN Fair Wage Convention

A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.


Category: Social Justice


Strength: Mild


Proposed by: Iron Felix

Description: RECOGNIZING the right of all workers to receive fair compensation for their labor;

RECOGNIZING the current absence of UN legislation addressing wages and compensation;

CONCERNED that in many nations the working poor, especially women, infants and children, suffer most from this lack of legislation;

CONVINCED of the need to rectify this situation;

RESOLVED to help ensure the right to fair wages for all workers;

The General Assembly of The United Nations hereby ordains that:

(I) For the purposes of this legislation, wage is defined as any compensation, monetary or otherwise, which workers receive in exchange for their labor.

(II) All UN nations are strongly encouraged to enact legislation:

(i)Guaranteeing fair wages as appropriate for their nation, taking into account local economic conditions and standards of living.
(ii)Establishing an enforcement mechanism as deemed appropriate for their nation.
(iii)Providing for the collection and study of relevant economic data to be used in determining appropriate wages in their nation.

(III) Factors to be considered when calculating fair wages should include the cost of food for one worker and one dependent, housing for one worker and one dependent, local utilities (gas, water, electricity, telecommunications, etc.), schooling for one dependent and reasonable and appropriate discretionary spending.

(IV) Wages shall not be denied for time worked.

(V) Wages shall be paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days in duration.

(VI) Exemption may be granted for organizations which operate on a not-for-profit basis and whose members or employees voluntarily participate on an unpaid or reduced pay basis. Examples of this type of employment would include, but not be limited to, charitable organizations and organizations which operate sheltered workshops for the disabled, etc.

(VII) The United Nations Wage Adjustment Advisory Commission is hereby established to provide guidance and assistance to UN member nations in determining appropriate wages in their individual nations. The Commission shall be empowered to make recommendations and provide assistance to national governments in matters concerning wage related legislation and policies.

(VIII) It is affirmed that UN nations shall retain the right to make final decisions in all matters concerning wages and compensation, taking into account local economic conditions and factors affecting the economic well-being of all their citizenry.
Fellow Ambassadors, my esteememed colleagues of the General Assembly, it gives me great pleasure to present to you our soon to be voted upon Resolution, "UN Fair Wage Convention". This Resolution was submitted by Iron Felix on 7 November and achieved quorum the next day.

As many of you know, I have served as acting Ambassador during the debate of the recently failed "Unconventional Arms Accord". My time as Ambassador has now come to an end. I shall now be turning the post of Ambasador over to my....umm...friend, and..comrade, the "honorable" Iron Felix.

So. Without further ado, I bid you all farewell


Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú
Attache, Yeldan Committee For State Security

*turns to Felix and mumbles "don't screw this up"*

Having considered this previously, my country re-iterates its support.


Dr. Sergei Telkijski (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Sergei_Vyacheslav_Telkijski),
Itinerant Ambassador,
PDSRA

*turns to Felix and mumbles "don't screw this up"*

*throws Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú out the window*

The United Socialist States of Ellelt fully support this mesure. Its passage will be a great victory to the working peoples of the world.

Further, we offer our assistance to Iron Felix for the purpose of passing this important peice of legislation.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN

My time as Ambassador has now come to an end.**wild cheering and whistling from the Kennyite section**

Er, what we mean is, we support this resolution entirely. Long live Iron Felix!

Alex Tehrani
Secretary of State

You have the full support of the queendom. *yawns*



Tana Petrov
Temporary UN Representative
Queendom of Karmicaria

Not to protest, but we're curious: why is this a Social Justice issue as opposed to a Human Rights issue? When we submitted National Overtime Standards as a Social Justice issue, it was struck as illegal, even though all we were doing was guaranteeing nations the right to regulate overtime while urging them to enact overtime laws.

That quibble aside, we'll be supporting this issue. It achieves everything we wanted to achieve with NOS, in so far as the Article VII reservation authorizes nations to legislate overtime rules, thereby eliminating one of the questionable issues left for us to deal with in the wake of IWF (namely, whether the IWF bans overtime as a limitation to individual freedom with regards to the number of hours worked, in so far as such laws disincentivize businesses from offering worker however many hours they wish).

Not to protest, but we're curious: why is this a Social Justice issue as opposed to a Human Rights issue?
Social Justice is the best fit. But you're right, it is borderline. The Rules For UN Proposals defines a social justice proposal as "A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare". I'm satisfied that this will reduce income inequality, the "increase basic welfare" part is trickier because what is meant by the term "welfare"?

If "welfare" = "well-being", then we're OK .

If "welfare" = "the dole", "unemployment checks" etc., then we still might be OK because Article (VII) states: "The Commission shall be empowered to make recommendations and provide assistance to national governments in matters concerning wage related legislation and policies". It is conceivable that the commission could recommend increasing (or establishing) unemployment benefits in certain nations and that those governments might choose to follow those recommendations. This would "increase basic welfare", if that is the definition of welfare that is intended in the rules.

I know I'll probably get defenestrated or something for this, but Ceorana will most likely oppose. We would cast our vote in the apathetitive, but we'd rather not have another blocker on the books.

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

But you're right, it is borderline.I'd say "skin of your teeth", personally.

This resolution is moot.

It seems to be MERELY stating economic principles, the mechanisms that every nation uses regardless to determine those principles, and dances around actually doing anything.

One could edit out everything in the proposal aside from the commission establishment and it would be the same as before. Just shorter...

I know I'll probably get defenestrated or something for this, but Ceorana will most likely oppose. We would cast our vote in the apathetitive, but we'd rather not have another blocker on the books.

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana
I will give you a chance to explain yourself before defenestrating you.

OOC: It is true that Article (VIII) would prevent future misguided attempts to pass binding Minimum Wage and Living Wage type resolutions. For the better part of the last year, I tried to come up with a way to write a Living Wage Resolution. This very Resolution was submitted in that form more than once, drawing the ire of Cluich and others, I might add. Those who know me can attest to this.

In the end, I decided that it was just not possible to write such a proposal mandating a living wage for the entire UN without wrecking economies in the process. Entering into an agreement to institute a living wage voluntarily (like when joining the IFTA) is one thing. Mandating it for all 29,329 UN members with wildly varying currencies, exchange rates and costs of living is quite another. I decided that the best course would be to block that particular avenue of legislation, while at the same time using the Resolution to "push" nations in the direction of fair wages.

IC: Now, you may present your argument, then I will defenestrate you.

This resolution is moot.
It will cure puppies, damn you!

It seems to be MERELY stating economic principles, the mechanisms that every nation uses regardless to determine those principles, and dances around actually doing anything.
I'm Sorry, I chose not to use the BIG HAMMER approach with this. Did you have a stronger proposal you were planning to submit?

One could edit out everything in the proposal aside from the commission establishment and it would be the same as before. Just shorter...
Well, what if you edited out this?:
(IV) Wages shall not be denied for time worked.

(V) Wages shall be paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days in duration.

Exemption may be granted for organizations which operate on a not-for-profit basis and whose members or employees voluntarily participate on an unpaid or reduced pay basis. Examples of this type of employment would include, but not be limited to, charitable organizations and organizations which operate sheltered workshops for the disabled, etc.
Slippery slope?

I was planning a ban on any work at all, actually.;)

This seems like it should be more of a grass-roots/union thing to me. As economies improve, so do wages and standards of living- always. They go hand in hand really.

From a low-class worker's perspective, this resolution might at first glance appear beneficial. But from a business-owner's perspective it looks like just another way to take away free enterprize rights.

The best way to enforce minimum wage is NOT to create laws, but to make it appear inhumane in the eyes of the public. The happier the customers are with the ethics of the business, the more likely the customer will remain loyal and promotional.

Lobbying to restrict liberties is what socialists would do. Are you now going to push for unions in all nations? The fact is that not all jobs worth employing somebody for are worth minimum wage--whatever THAT means! And on the other end of the spectrum, there are jobs out there that are so taxing on the mind and body that minimum wage would be an insult.

When you restrict the owner from exercising what he/she thinks is best for his/her company and employees, you create apathy in the owner. A man hired to sweep a sidewalk may not be worth $6/hr. for some companies. Minimum wage laws actually takes that job out of the market and puts it into the hands of someone already employed as a clerk, for instance. This puts more workload on the other employees whilst taking away from the economy. Mr. Smith down the road might only need a weekend job sweeping sidewalks to pay for his movie tickets. He might be willing to do the job for $4/hr., but the law won't let the business owner hire him for that. So the business owner puts the duty on the clerk instead, leaving Mr. Smith out of work.

In support of Liberty, The Federation of the Tetrad would vote "NO" on this proposition, unless you wish to seriously reword it.

Are you now going to push for unions in all nations?Been there, done that (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10737920&postcount=150).

To the ambassador from Yelda/Iron Felix, please understand that I agree with your essential intentions. A living wage is a Good Thing, but should not be mandated across the United Nations. However, in light of this, it should not be legislated on at all, not have a blocker put in its place. There may be good work to be done by the United Nations in this area.

I will now play a game of tag trying to get away from Mr. Felix person, lest he defenestrate me.

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

*Doctor Denis Leary trips Kingsley Thomas as he runs by.*

The best way to enforce minimum wage is NOT to create laws
It doesn't establish a minimum wage. Read it again.

Lobbying to restrict liberties is what socialists would do. Are you now going to push for unions in all nations?
All UN nations already have Unions. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10737920&postcount=150

2 paragraphs of blather about minimum wage

In support of Liberty, The Federation of the Tetrad would vote "NO" on this proposition, unless you wish to seriously reword it.
I advise you to vote against it. Go away.

To the ambassador from Yelda/Iron Felix, please understand that I agree with your essential intentions. A living wage is a Good Thing, but should not be mandated across the United Nations. However, in light of this, it should not be legislated on at all, not have a blocker put in its place. There may be good work to be done by the United Nations in this area.

I will now play a game of tag trying to get away from Mr. Felix person, lest he defenestrate me.

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

Thomas Smith raised an eyebrow as Kingsley began to jog, then watched as Dr. Leary put out his leg and tripped the fellow before he got too far. He grabbed Kingsley, looked around for the nearest window, hauled him towards it, and threw the other man rather solidly out the window. This accomplished, he nods politely to Felix and returns to the center of the debate floor.

"Good thing there wasn't anything blocking me from doing that. Can't have that sort of thing being blocked. It's just not right."

He straightens his tie. "Where was I? Oh, yes. The Federation is entirely in favor of this resolution with laudable principles and practical aims. Thank you for your time, ladies and gentlemen."

Former Deputy Minister of UN Affairs
Thomas Smith

After a short while, Kingsley's face was seen at the window. Or at least, it appeared to be his face. On closer examination, it turned out to be his left elbow, which had swelled up to the approximate size of his head. He was somewhat of an older man, and seemed to be puffing quite a lot. He was standing on top of a pyramid of cinderblocks which he had found in the dumpster outside. He walked into the assembly and resumed his seat, with no indication that the events of the past few minutes had transpired. He stood up and again began to speak...

To say that you have you know, without a doubt, that this legislation blocks only things that cannot be practically achieved at the international level is sheer arrogance. Why should we burn our bridges in this area when we do not know for certain if we would ever want to cross them? Ceorana urges its fellow nations to support constructive legislation and cast your official vote for this legislation in the negative.

Now, Trenbakke, please grab me a huge ice pack!

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

On behalf of Drae Nei, and the United Community Builders, we vote in support of this resolution, even if defenestration is a possible outcome for some, and in full agreement that for some, defenestration is fully deserved.

Stewart, having been rudely interrupted from a particularly nice nap by the introduction of this resolution, turned to his aide for some quick counsel.

"Um... correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't really enforce anything we don't already do, does it? Hello? Oh, right, I forgot... I'm too facking poor to afford an aide. Damn. Um, in that case, tally us up on the FOR side, wouldja?"

You know, I don't really care how many times you guys defenestrate each other, but please be considerate and open the window first.

Ken Scott
VP, Building Maintence
UN Building Management

After a short while, Kingsley's face was seen at the window. Or at least, it appeared to be his face. On closer examination, it turned out to be his left elbow, which had swelled up to the approximate size of his head. He was somewhat of an older man, and seemed to be puffing quite a lot. He was standing on top of a pyramid of cinderblocks which he had found in the dumpster outside. He walked into the assembly and resumed his seat, with no indication that the events of the past few minutes had transpired. He stood up and again began to speak...

To say that you have you know, without a doubt, that this legislation blocks only things that cannot be practically achieved at the international level is sheer arrogance. Why should we burn our bridges in this area when we do not know for certain if we would ever want to cross them? Ceorana urges its fellow nations to support constructive legislation and cast your official vote for this legislation in the negative.

Now, Trenbakke, please grab me a huge ice pack!

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

I'll glady finance whatever medical care Mr. Thomas needs as a result of his defenestration.

In any case, on to the point about arrogance. While I freely admit to a certain amount of arrogance in the Federation's position that the United Nations should be blocked from legislating on this issue, I do not believe that we are quite as accomplished in being arrogant as those who believe that the United Nations can successfully design and implement a standard wage system for all of it's tens of thousands of member nations despite the obstacles created by thousands of unique economic, legal, religious, technological, and cultural systems...all in a resolution written with 3,500 characters, no less.

I'll gladly support burning the bridge to cultural and ideological imperialism that acts in the name of false equality, thank you.

Former Deputy Minister of UN Affairs
Thomas Smith

Love and esterel support this proposal.
Consumption is an important factor of economic growth, and we also think that a fair wage adpated to economic conditions, as decribed in this proposal, can improve the economy.

Supported.

We'll be gritting our teeth and supporting it, because it does what we want it to, even if it sounds contrary in the process.

Oh, and clearly we'll be ignoring its encouragements and so on, and grumbling about IV and V.

~Rono Pyandran
etc.

It will cure puppies, damn you!
Nay, this bill most certainly kills puppies!

But sadly, it doesn't kill enough, which is why my country has to vote against it. :D

The best way to enforce minimum wage is NOT to create laws, but to make it appear inhumane in the eyes of the public. The happier the customers are with the ethics of the business, the more likely the customer will remain loyal and promotional.

You have far too much faith in the ethics of consumers.

This proposal takes into account the need for consensus, while enforcing the vital bases of essential social fairness. If it fails to pass, I will truly despair of this organisation.


Dr. Sergei V. Telkijski,
Itinerant Ambassador,
Killer of cancer,
Curer of puppies,
PDSRA

Nay, this bill most certainly kills puppies!

But sadly, it doesn't kill enough, which is why my country has to vote against it. :D
I take that back.

This is a great bill. It cures cancer. It solves world hunger. It ensures little Timmy will get that bicycle he wants this Christmas.

I encourage everyone reading to vote in favor of this bill! :D

After reading this, I agree that this resolution really does nothing that isn't already done.

One member suggested that the bill would take toll on workers willing to take less than a proposed minimum wage to do a weekend job, which then puts more work on someone working at minimum wage, as he would take the responsibilities for that job, Good example.

However, the resolution states that exemptions be made for those agreeing to voluntary or reduced wage positions. So if the worker voluntarily agrees to work at a reduced wage the employer has the right to waive minimum wage (Pending written contract I would imagine).

But this still doesn't change the fact that this is simply a blocker bill, stopping one from dishing out low wages, however, I do not believe this is an issue to be decided on at this point. Untill there is proper evidence that a sizeable amount of workers are being paid unfairly I believe that it's too taxing on nations that have good economies that work outside the boundries of this bill, but without being overly oppressive to it's peoples, as this would force them to restructure.

As representative from the strongly capitalist nation of Zelpharia, I oppose anything that forces my government to get involved with the free market. You can expect me to vote "no" for this resolution.

Honourable General Assembly

It seems to me that the proposed resolution is clompletely out of touch with the basic functions of economics, and is also getting in the way of prosperity and development. I will prove this in a few feasible arguments.

First and foremost we all know how the market works, the famed Aquilonius Gloria scholar Smith "the Hurricane" Adams explained several centuries ago the functions of supply and demand.
As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. (The Wealth of Nations)

How does pursuing your own interest raise wages, you might ask yourselfes. As the economy grows and the demand for labour rises, the wages will rise automatically, because labour will be harder to get and so workers can negotiate higher wages.

Looking at the resolution at hand I can't indentify what would actualy increase wages? And I will show the general assembly why:
(i)Guaranteeing fair wages as appropriate for their nation, taking into account local economic conditions and standards of living.
(ii)Establishing an enforcement mechanism as deemed appropriate for their nation.
(iii)Providing for the collection and study of relevant economic data to be used in determining appropriate wages in their nation.
(i) If local economic conditions and standards of living are taken into account nothing will happen to the wages, because the market continually evaluates the economic situation in order to adjust, and pays out salaries based on economic factors. Concerning standards of living, the standard of living is based on the wages paid, if the wages are low so is the standard of living. However the resolution promotes wages based on the current standards of living and does not encourage development in underdeveloped nations. The resolution actually gives employers a reason to keep wages low as to keep the standard of living.

(ii)What is an "enforcement mechanism as deemed appropriate for their nation"? By beeing so unclear the resolution is giving governments and corporations the most needed loophole. Governments refusing enact the ordinance, will simply set fines for breaking the law so low it will not impact the financial situation of he company involved.

(iii)The market of labour already evaluates proper data in order to determine wages for their workers. It mostly sounds as a whole lot of expensive bureaucracy. Wich is not well spent money in the eyes of the hard working citizens of Aquilonius Gloria, or any other nation I suppose.

This resolution is useless because it only encorages nations it does not enforce anything.
(II) All UN nations are strongly encouraged to enact legislation

(III) Factors to be considered when calculating fair wages should include the cost of food for one worker and one dependent, housing for one worker and one dependent, local utilities (gas, water, electricity, telecommunications, etc.), schooling for one dependent and reasonable and appropriate discretionary spending.
Why one dependent? Why should the employer pay for anothers problem? and why one dependent, the average family size in some countries might be six. This part really destroys the credibility of the resolution. It already states that wages should be based on current living standards, in some countries those standards don't include gas, water, electricity or schooling.

The Empire of Aqulonius Gloria has always had pride in well paid workers and a high standard of living, yet this resolution might be in the way of that becomming a reality in other nations. By increasing wages in poor countries or countries with high unemployment, you automatically create a bigger gap between the employed and those unemployed. Not only that, by increasing production cost (because of increased wages), products will catch a higher price. With the prices on the rise products will be even harder to get for the poor or unemployed.
At the same time you might destroy entire economies. In countries where unemployment rates are at 1-4% higher wages would only increase the inflation, wich means that the increased wages would be eaten away by increased prices. When the resolution enforcers would then again raise the wages, you would get the same effect and be stuck in an inflation spiral. In addition the interest rates will skyrocket to control the inflation, and those that really need loans to by a house, a car, refinance their morgage or pay for college/University will suffer, and only the rich will afford to take loans.

The Fair Wage Convention is a lot of bureaucracy at the expense of the working man, it hinders development in the third world and creates inflation in developed countries.

The nation of Aquilonius Gloria does not intend to dismiss the need of the worker, and therefore suggests that other meassures be taken rather than the resolution beeing discussed.

G. S. Ólafsson
Aquilonius Gloria Ambassador to the UN
Isafold Regional Delegate

To the ambassador from Yelda/Iron Felix, please understand that I agree with your essential intentions. A living wage is a Good Thing, but should not be mandated across the United Nations. However, in light of this, it should not be legislated on at all, not have a blocker put in its place.

We feel somewhat similar, in that we do not wish this body to legislate at all in this area. However, we also acknowledge that the bloody fluffies will keep trying to implement a "living" or minimum wage, as well as a host of other intrusive policies, upon the members of the UN. So perhaps a blocker might be a good idea. Frankly, we are torn between principle and pragmatism on this one, and as such, we will abstain from voting.

There may be good work to be done by the United Nations in this area.

Extremely unlikely.[/QUOTE]

You know, I don't really care how many times you guys defenestrate each other, but please be considerate and open the window first.


I'll save Felix the trouble.

Sheik Nadnerb opens the nearest window and leaps through it.

The Secretary of The Protectorate of Excruci-rUiNation has been instructed by the Beloved President for Life of Excruciatia to vote against this, as all the workers in Excruciatia and it's puppets are already well rewarded by being allowed to live to continue to work if their performance is acceptable.

I'll save Felix the trouble.

Sheik Nadnerb opens the nearest window and leaps through it.

Doctor Telkijski (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Sergei_Vyacheslav_Telkijski) stands and applauds, then sighs.

"I'd better go and see if he's all right. Scrape him off wherever he's landed. Me being a doctor and all that..."

He hurries out of the GA.

The Empyrean Society of Doujin abhors this measure. Doujin believes in supply-side fiscal and monetary macroeconomic policies, not demand-side - as in the long run, demand-side fiscal and monetary macroeconomic policies do nothing to promote economic growth and stability.

Doujin believes in free markets, not standardized wages.

Doctor Telkijski (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Sergei_Vyacheslav_Telkijski) stands and applauds, then sighs.

"I'd better go and see if he's all right. Scrape him off wherever he's landed. Me being a doctor and all that..."

He hurries out of the GA.

I'm okay, really. And besides, you couldn't have just sent a hot nurse instead?

To say that you have you know, without a doubt, that this legislation blocks only things that cannot be practically achieved at the international level is sheer arrogance. Why should we burn our bridges in this area when we do not know for certain if we would ever want to cross them? Ceorana urges its fellow nations to support constructive legislation and cast your official vote for this legislation in the negative.So lemme get this straight ...

You don't even know what you would like to do in this arena, but you would have the United Nations defeat a good proposal and deny national rights on the basis of "good work" that might be done in the future? Should a company not close down a factory that's been turning out nothing but crap furniture and trinkets no one will buy on the hope that it might start producing something worthwhile?

Whatever "good work" the international community could possibly accomplish in this area is already set out in Clauses 1-7 of this very article, but, like a true International Federalist, you ignore all the previous clauses and focus on one disagreeable one, not because you would like to offer anything specific that would counter it, but because of some arbitrary bias you hold against national rights. At least Mikitivity was kind enough to state its opposition to UCAA on the basis of future legislation on space-age weaponry.

Now, if you would please, stop playing games with us. Don't merely promise something that could be done. Offer something specific; elsewise, shut up.

Sammy Faisano
Ambassador to the United Nations

I'm okay, really. And besides, you couldn't have just sent a hot nurse instead?

We've got a hot secretary (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Kim_Min-Sun), but you're not having her. Now stop throwing yourself out of windows and making me run up and down this damn building.

After looking over the proposal, we have decided to abstain from voting. My delegation has made it pretty clear that we don't want the United Nations meddling in our affairs anymore than is entirely necessary; and on those grounds we oppose the resolution.

However, we can't find anything particularly harmful about the resolution other than the fact that it duplicates our own national law and is unnecessary for the Empire. We are particularly happy that this will prevent the United Nations from passing ridiculous and unnecessary legislation regarding wages.

For these conflicting reasons, we have been authorized to abstain from the voting on this issue. We must compliment the Yeldan contingent on a particularly well-written resolution.

Ausserland has voted in favor of the resolution. Perhaps it will help keep us from having to wade through more piles of one-size-fits-all legislative trash.

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

We've got a hot secretary (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Kim_Min-Sun), but you're not having her. Now stop throwing yourself out of windows and making me run up and down this damn building.

I'm still willing to purchase her for "private employment," though...

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

I'm still willing to purchase her for "private employment," though...


I don't think she's interested. Besides, what would she do with the money? We don't use money in Ariddia.


Dr. Sergei V. Telkijski,
Itinerant Ambassador,
PDSRA

I don't think she's interested. Besides, what would she do with the money? We don't use money in Ariddia.


Dr. Sergei V. Telkijski,
Itinerant Ambassador,
PDSRA

She could buy a lot of "toys" from CPESL (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=21).

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

She could buy a lot of "toys" from CPESL (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=21).


...

Hmm.

Just get back indoors. And stay away from Asian-Ariddian secretaries! And windows.


Dr. Sergei V. Telkijski,
Itinerant Ambassador,
PDSRA

My nation does like the idea of this, however been a Democracy the government and I have debated the issue, and feel that this debate by the UN is the only way forward for our Democratic nation. Fair wages for the population who don't get as much money as the Film Actors or Baseball players is a very good idea. The USAD Government shall debate this situation further, however at this moment in time we vote 'YES' for fair wages.

Place yourself in th' position o' a Cap'n 'n ask: If a sailor costs me, say, seven doubloons in wages, plus mandated fringes such as Social Security, unemployment compensation, sick 'n vacation, makin' th' true hourly cost o' hirin' a sailor nine doubloons an hour, does it pay th' Cap'n t' hire a sailor wit' skills so low as t' only enable 'im t' produce six doubloons worth o' swag per hour? Most Cap'n's would reckon this be a losin' economic proposition.
Thar are a couple other rats in th' bilge that force Cap'n's t' respond t' increases in wages that exceed a sailor's productivity. If th' Cap'n did sign on such sailors, he would earn lower profits. Soon, investors would maroon his ship 'n hire ships where returns o' swag are higher.
Thar's another rat in the bilge -- th' customer. If th' Cap'n signs on sailors whose wages exceeded thar productivity, t' cover his costs he would 'ave t' charge ye 'n me higher product or service prices. Th' Cap'n nay know about ye, but he likes lower prices t' higher prices, he 'n his hearties would switch thar patronage t' those ships who adjusted t' th' higher labor costs by reducin' sailors down instead o' prices up.
Th' UN can easily mandate higher wages, but they cannot mandate higher sailor productivity or that Cap'n's hire a particular sailor in th' first place. Those o' us who truly care about th' welfare o' low-skilled sailors should set our course on helpin' them swabs t' become more productive, 'n a good start would be t' do somethin' about th' rotten education that many receive.

Vote against this proposal.

Wow, that's most bizarre way I've ever seen to express what is, in fact, a lot of very good points. Got me to vote against it.

Vote against this proposal.
Aye, Cap'n!

Arrrrh! That'd be having t' makin's of a fine first post, Laddy.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I despair at yet another resolution that makes grand gestures but shies away from enforcement. Countering this is the knowledge that no mandatory and quantitative wages legislation is likely to be flexible enough to cater for the needs of all nations, reasonable or otherwise.

Dashanzi casts its vote in favour, though without any great conviction. Now, if you would be so kind, I wish to exit this chamber through the doors.

Benedictions,

Community Property feels that it is more important to protect those among us who want to enact national Social Justice legislation from those who, in their zeal to create a global capitalist society, would tear even national “barriers to competition” down in pursuit of that goal, than to vote this resolution down in the vain hope on enacting global wage regulation.

(Don't laugh: “conservatives” always fear “liberal” activism, but “liberals” live in equal fear of “conservative” activism. Our support for this resolution is defensive: it allows us to mandate “wages” that are not bound to the free market, in order to achieve the ends of egalitarianism and the elimination of class distinctions. Too much recent legislation has threatened to nibble away at our ability to do this.)

We also agree with those who support this legislation as an obstacle to “one-size-fits-all” wage regulation: there is simply no reasonable way to regulate wage rates or compensation on a global basis. In fact, we would suggest to those nations interested in regulating wages and overtime that they do so on a regional - or even better - local basis. Wages often differ dramatically with geography, and for good reason; rather than fight this and cause tremendous economic dislocation, it's better to recognize reality and allow each community to determine its own “fair” or “living” wage.

Finally, we find it surprising that so many free-market devotees would oppose this legislation. Nothing in it requires compensation regulation; you are free to embrace laissez-faire should you wish. Nations are “strongly urged” to address the problem of fair compensation, but there is nothing to force such action upon you, nor is there any mandate that you employ the traditional (and utterly counterproductive) strategy of setting “minimum” wages; you can attack the problem anyway you please.

(For example, you could dictate that government will pay its workers a locally-determined “living wage”, and will only contract services [under most circumstances] from firms that do the same for their workers. This produces competitive pressure within local labor markets while still allowing businessmen who can't [or won't] pay such a wage the right to refuse [they just can't bid on government contracts - but then, nobody ever claimed that bidding on government contracts was a right]. This increases the cost of government, to be sure - but it works within the structure of the marketplace to drive wages up to an acceptable level, at least for the large majority of workers.)

As for those who claim that paying higher wages will produce inflation, we respond that such a notion is bunk. Almost all inflation is “demand pull”; “cost push” inflation is rare and usually self-limiting. You can throw the classic “inflationary cycle” concept out the window (or ask Felix to do it for you), because such cycles can not occur without a deliberate government policy of currency debasement. The worst result than can come from paying too high a wage is high unemployment, and if you're seeing high unemployment, then you had best reduce your “living wage” to address the problem.

For the sake of permitting nations to maintain independence of economic policy, then, we reiterate our support for this resolution.

After reviewing the responses to the proposal, I must state that Im disheartened by the erronious economic arguments presented.

Myth: Increasing wages leads to unemployment.

Fact: Increasing wages allows workers (who are the primary consuming class) to purchase more goods and services. And by purchasing more goods and services increasing the national GDP.

Myth: This proposal espouses principles that every nation already uses.

Fact: Not every nation guerantees workers a minimum/living/fair wage, In some instances the unions in UN countries can by collective barganing win better wages for workers in indivdual industries, however, in non-unionised industries this is not the case, and wages might be lower than a living/fair standard.

Now that the two main myths used to combat the proposal have been dealt with...lets turn to hard economics.

In industrialised nations often times work has been compartmentalised to the point of just turning one screw on an assembly line, or making one spacific part for a good. Now this work may or may not be valuable enough by itself if performed once to warrent payment of the minimum/fair/living wage.

However, when performed repeatedly, as is done in industrial settings, the value of each indiviual peice/action is multiplied by the number of peices/actions produced. When these actions pay for the cost of matterials and labor used plus whatever surplus generated (called profit by capitalists) the worker's work has been used/exploited.

In order to contenue using/exploiting the worker his basic needs need to be met. That is he will need to be fed, housed, clothed. If the worker is not paid enough to meet these needs he will weaken (thus producing less surplus-value) or even worse die (thus producing NO surplus-value).

Now once the needs of the worker are met he will most likely have dependents (Children in many cases, who in tern will become workers themselves) who will also need to be supported, be it for reasons of being a child, sick, elderly, being educated. In the cases of being a child or being educated it should be obvious that supporting these people is increasing the general labor pool, where as in the cases of the sick/disabled and elderly this is just plain humanism.

Ponkaquogue opposes this silly resolution. It goes too far in interfering in the internal workings of a nation's economy. Each nation should work out a wage scale appropriate to its own economic realities and not be dictated to by the UN.

Thank you. :)

Ponkaquogue Chamber of Commerce

Must we have more government intervention in the free market? Why can't we just allow people, including employers to be free? Let the invisible hand work its wonders and appeal all minimum wage laws! Oh and by the way, I’m sorry Ellelt but raising the minimum wage does in fact create unemployment, because it creates what is known as a surplus in the market for labor. You see in the labor market, the workers are the supply, while the employers represent the demand. At a higher salary (price), there is naturally, a higher quantity supplied of workers but a lower quantity demanded. Since the employers demand less than what is supplied, there will be plenty of people willing and able to work, but very few people willing and able to employ them. So yes, maybe those who keep their jobs can purchase more and in turn increase GDP, but those who lost their jobs can not contribute a thing towards GDP. The Holy Republic of Fraietta40 votes against this resolution and urges all other capitalist and free nations to do the same.

May I remind the representative from Fraietta40 that we are talking here about minimum wages ensuring basic living conditions?


Dr. Sergei V. Telkijski,
Itinerant Ambassador,
PDSRA

If this bill enforces nothing, and simply urges countries to legislate, than it accomplishes nothing, and matters not. This a useless peice of writing only to clog the UN archives of approved proposals.

Thing that raising wages DOESN'T cause unemployment is hilarious. The trickle down theory doesn't work. You're only raising wages to the sub living wage workers, which sounds all rosey, but all it really means is companies will alleviate by firing sub living wage workers and assigning their responsibilities to those making higher wages. Causing unemployment.

However, since this enforces no action, simply urges it, it can't even do what you claim it can, it simply says, "We think you should do this, but you don't have to." Which does nothing.

Plus, it is common knowledge many corporations, and the white collar jobs they create, only exist because of low labor costs out of countries that allow for sub living wage jobs. Because not everyone wants to make shoes, or stickers or little knock-off spiderman action figures. So by allowing the current economic structure to continue you prevent the outsourcing of such labor, and with an economy padded with the added manufacturing, they would most likely make more than sweat shops in countries with less powerful economies.

However, as I stated, as well as supporters have stated, the bill enforces nothing. Please vote against this proposal and perhaps work on something that's more constructive.

Our nation isn't capitalist, or socialist for that matter, but it is free (sort of) and we vote an enthusiastic for.

We have seen many proposals in the past attempt to enforce, and a couple ban, a fair, living or minimum wage. All of them hit the same brick walls of how much, the difference in currencies between nations, nat sov, and many other problems.

This one is the first that manages to cover the subject with a compromise of sorts (this is our own opinion) and protect workers while at the same time not forcing a one size fits all solution and giving nation governments the final say.

Our government supports this resolution and urges all to vote for.

This is also only about the third time both Witchcliff representatives have been in total agreement on a resolution vote. That in itself is an indication of how strong our approval of this legislation really is.

Panyer
The Preservers

Kirin
The Reformers

Joint Witchcliff representatives to the UN

Each nation should work out a wage scale appropriate to its own economic realities and not be dictated to by the UN.
* ooc: I agree, though I think you're confused. This resolution dictates nothing and allows for nations to pay heed to their economic realities. *

The trickle down theory doesn't work.
* ooc: I agree, though I think you're confused. This proposal is hardly the work of a trickle-down theorist. *

I would like to point out that Henry Ford paid his workers 5 dollars a day. That was a very high wage at the time. He also built houses for they could stay in. This allowed his workers the ability to buy the very cars they were making. He did very well. Now not all good came of this, but the idea that the more you pay a person the more he will buy is a universal truth.

Business today look not at the future but the here and now. Theu are worried about profits. Cut here and there. Well here is an idea, give a good wage to your workers and encourage them to do well with production, and quality bonuses. Do not offer cheaper stuff just so a rich person can be richer as the workers suffer.

The Republic of Richpoor stands for this resolution and calls for a new proposal for a law baring any military or emergency personal from striking. Their Jobs are for the public good and the public can not be held hostage.

(V) Wages shall be paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days in duration.
Ummm... am I being dumb, or does this prohibit paying wages every calendar month? That would be a bit of a pity.

An exceedingly long post which gave me a headache the second time I read it.
THIS IS A GREAT VICTORY FOR GATESVILLE! Additionally, this Resolution will cure cancer. It also will kill puppies or cure puppies, depending on what your stance is on the killing/curing of puppies. (good post though and I really did read it but unfortunately I'm an asshole. Sorry.)

Doujin believes in free markets, not standardized wages.
So don't standardize them.

Arr.
Talk like a pirate day was last month. (good first post though)

After reviewing the responses to the proposal, I must state that Im disheartened by the erronious economic arguments presented.
Thank you for your support and welcome to the General Assembly, home of the popular TV game show "Who Want's To Be An Economist". Stay tuned and don't touch that dial, we'll be back with more economic wackiness after these messages.

*cue an obnoxious commercial for Fine Yeldan Cheeses™*

Each nation should work out a wage scale appropriate to its own economic realities and not be dictated to by the UN.
So do that then.

Please vote against this proposal and perhaps work on something that's more constructive.
I trust you are working on such a proposal even as we speak. I'll expect you to post a draft within the next 2 hours. Don't disappoint me.

I would like to point out that Henry Ford paid his workers 5 dollars a day.
Thank you for pointing that out.

Ummm... am I being dumb, or does this prohibit paying wages every calendar month? That would be a bit of a pity.
Good question. This is NS, not RL. Not everyone uses the Gregorian calendar. Not everyone has months of 28, 30 and 31 days. There may be nations with months of 14 days or 112 days or no months in their calender at all. I'm pretty sure everyone uses days though.

Whatever "good work" the international community could possibly accomplish in this area is already set out in Clauses 1-7 of this very article, but, like a true International Federalist, you ignore all the previous clauses and focus on one disagreeable one, not because you would like to offer anything specific that would counter it, but because of some arbitrary bias you hold against national rights. At least Mikitivity was kind enough to state its opposition to UCAA on the basis of future legislation on space-age weaponry.

Now, if you would please, stop playing games with us. Don't merely promise something that could be done. Offer something specific; elsewise, shut up.
Mr. Faisano, I don't pretend to have all the answers, and neither should you. When we pass a blocker, we are saying "we, in our infinite wisdom, know that the UN cannot do any good (in our collective opinion), in this area, and that, since there is no chance that anyone wiser than us could come to this body and propose something good here, we want to set up a shield against legislation we don't like". Passing a blocker is like cutting off a limb. You can always decide to not use it, but once you cut it off, it's a lot harder to sew back on.

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

Good question. This is NS, not RL. Not everyone uses the Gregorian calendar. Not everyone has months of 28, 30 and 31 days. There may be nations with months of 14 days or 112 days or no months in their calender at all. I'm pretty sure everyone uses days though.
In that case, in keeping with the spirit of the rest of the resolution, it should probably have said something along the lines of "Wages shall be paid on a regular basis whose maximum duration shall take into account all cultural norms and calendar nuances applicable to each nation" ;)

It's all well and good if a nation wants to do that for themselves... but I can envision a -lot- of scenaria where this would be a bad idea..
Plus it makes it impossible to, say, work a ton of very easy jobs that each pay diddly squat.. because you like doing all of them... I mean, there's no way babysitting ever meets minimum wage..

This could get ugly fast
It already is. You're making it uglier.
It's all well and good if a nation wants to do that for themselves...
Do what?
but I can envision a -lot- of scenaria where this would be a bad idea..
What would?
Plus it makes it impossible to, say, work a ton of very easy jobs that each pay diddly squat.. because you like doing all of them... I mean, there's no way babysitting ever meets minimum wage..
Good thing this doesn't establish a minimum wage then. Run along.

No resolution should EVER force a government to get involved with the free market in any way.

End of story.

No resolution should EVER force a government to get involved with the free market in any way.

End of story.
No UN representative should EVER comment on a Resolution without reading it first.

End of story.

No UN representative should EVER comment on a Resolution without reading it first.

End of story.

You should be accustomed to this by now. It seems to a long running, uh...tradition in the GA. Representatives who don't read the resolution or judge it based solely on the title.

Tana Petrov
UN Representative
Queendom of Karmicaria

I had read the resolution before, and I also just read it again.

I know that it's not a minimum wage resolution.

How does this not deal with governments getting involved with the free market?

EDIT: Ok, I see how it doesn't "force" governments to get involved, but it still deals with governments getting involved. Do you deny this?

Albeit very small, you have the full support of The Dominion of Trynias. And very nice job Felix.

We have an across the board Guaranteed Annual Income, along with robotic and droid industry. It is impossible to "employ" everyone in our society with its advanced machinery. Most baseline jobs and truly noxious jobs are done by machinery. If people do not wish to work at cheap jobs they don't have to. Our tax base is large enough to support this- below 40 percent is unworkable. For internal purposes this legislation is useless. However for external purposes, there are too many mismanaged countries with poor economies, this would probably help the working class. I am ambivalent.

I had read the resolution before, and I also just read it again.

I know that it's not a minimum wage resolution.

How does this not deal with governments getting involved with the free market?
Ah, but that's not what you said. You said:
No resolution should EVER force a government to get involved with the free market in any way.

End of story.

So. It doesn't force governments to get involved in the free market. It strongly encourages certain actions by governments. It establishes a commission to make recommendations on government policy. Certainly under this Resolution governments will be allowed to involve themselves in the free market, but they already can do that anyway.

EDIT: Ok, I see how it doesn't "force" governments to get involved, but it still deals with governments getting involved. Do you deny this?

No, I don't. It also deals with wages not being denied for time worked and being paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days. I imagine you consider that to be an unreasonable intrusion into the free market as well.

What's more, are you aware that this Resolution will cure cancer? Surprised?

But wait! There's more. It includes the additional feature of either killing or curing puppies. What is your government position on puppy killing/curing?

No government should interfere with the free market. What a ridiculous statement. All of the top rated countries for standard of living in the world have mixed markets. The closer to the middle way, or mixed economy-- balancing government controls with free market action the stronger the position a country is in standard of living in the world. Look at the top ten world leaders in standard of living and you will see this.

Ah, but that's not what you said. You said:


So. It doesn't force governments to get involved in the free market. It strongly encourages certain actions by governments. It establishes a commission to make recommendations on government policy. Certainly under this Resolution governments will be allowed to involve themselves in the free market, but they already can do that anyway.



No, I don't. It also deals with wages not being denied for time worked and being paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days. I imagine you consider that to be an unreasonable intrusion into the free market as well.

What's more, are you aware that this Resolution will cure cancer? Surprised?

But wait! There's more. It includes the additional feature of either killing or curing puppies. What is your government position on puppy killing/curing?

Ok, so the whole resolution is just a suggestion. It's saying that governments can get involved with the free market *if they want*, and if they choose to do so, here's a UN Commission to congratulate you.

There is no point at all to this resolution.

And about the puppies, if a private company wants to make money by killing or curing puppies, then they can go right ahead. The government really doesn't care.

The nation of Zelpharia is against this bill for 2 reasons:
1) There's no point to it
2) It SUGGESTS that governments should get involved with the free market

No government should interfere with the free market. What a ridiculous statement. All of the top rated countries for standard of living in the world have mixed markets. The closer to the middle way, or mixed economy-- balancing government controls with free market action the stronger the position a country is in standard of living in the world. Look at the top ten world leaders in standard of living and you will see this.

If you recall my post, I said "no resolution should force a government to get involved with the free market," not "no government should get involved with the free market." I do not deny that many of the RL world's largest economies are mixed markets.

Do what you want with your economy, but don't tell (or "encourage") me to socialize mine.

Just as a side note, the United States has one of the most capitalist systems in the world, and it's also the world's leading economy. Coincidence?

Ok, so the whole resolution is just a suggestion. It's saying that governments can get involved with the free market *if they want*, and if they choose to do so, here's a UN Commission to congratulate you.

There is no point at all to this resolution.

And about the puppies, if a private company wants to make money by killing or curing puppies, then they can go right ahead. The government really doesn't care.

The nation of Zelpharia is against this bill for 2 reasons:
1) There's no point to it
2) It SUGGESTS that governments should get involved with the free market

Yet another nation that doesn't understand the meaning of the word "blocker."

Also, let it be known that after reviewing the debate and consulting our legal experts (who may or may not exist), we have decided to vote in the affirmative.

Yet another nation that doesn't understand the meaning of the words "blocker."

"Blocker" is one word, not multiple words. :p

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Yet another nation that doesn't understand the meaning of the words "blocker."

Strangly enough, "blocker" is only one word.

"Blocker" is one word, not multiple words. :p

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Ah, you beat me to it.

There is no point at all to this resolution.
I advise you to vote against it.

And about the puppies, if a private company wants to make money by killing or curing puppies, then they can go right ahead. The government really doesn't care.
Yes, but consider this. Suppose a certain puppy killing conglomerate, we'll call it Gruenberger Puppy Eviscerating LTD, cornered the market on puppy killing and established a de facto monopoly in that sector. Then, let us suppose that this same conglomerate, through its wholly owned subsidiary GruPupCurCo LLC, branches out into the field of puppy curing and is making serious inroads into that market as well. Would you consider it appropriate to launch anti-trust proceedings against them? Competition is, after all, the life blood of the free market. And we haven't even delved into the repurcussions arising from the patenting of puppy killing/curing technologies or the copyrighting of documents pertaining to puppy killing/curing. I think you can agree that in some instances, the government must intervene in the market in order to save the market.

"Blocker" is one word, not multiple words. :p

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Hmm? Oh, what was that?

Hmm? Oh, what was that?

ooc: Blast! How dare you go in and correct yourself after somebody has already spotted it! :p Meh.

Yes, but consider this. Suppose a certain puppy killing conglomerate, we'll call it Gruenberger Puppy Eviscerating LTD, cornered the market on puppy killing and established a de facto monopoly in that sector. Then, let us suppose that this same conglomerate, through its wholly owned subsidiary GruPupCurCo LLC, branches out into the field of puppy curing and is making serious inroads into that market as well. Would you consider it appropriate to launch anti-trust proceedings against them? Competition is, after all, the life blood of the free market. And we haven't even delved into the repurcussions arising from the patenting of puppy killing/curing technologies or the copyrighting of documents pertaining to puppy killing/curing. I think you can agree that in some instances, the government must intervene in the market in order to save the market.

Believe it or not, I do have a response to this.

By the law of Zelpharia, if a company gains enough power that it corners an entire market, then it is seen as it's own government, it is broken up, and it's owners are tried for treason against the Zelpharian Order.

Zelpharia is still strongly pro big-business.

Believe it or not, I do have a response to this.

By the law of Zelpharia, if a company gains enough power that it corners an entire market, then it is seen as it's own government, it is broken up, and it's owners are tried for treason against the Zelpharian Order.

Good answer. I like you.

I like the idea of breaking up big businesses generally. That is why we Elletians are proud of our systems of soviets (worker's councils) where the workers control all phases of production and distribution.

Further, I thought Who wants to be an Economist was only an Elletian show, along with The 64,000 Ruble Question, and The Wheel of Torturing the Bourgeoisie. The Elleltian masses crave their game-shows, and cheese.

One problem I do have with the resolution is that it prohibits puppy killing on television, but we are still supporting it...I guess we will just have to kill kittens instead. Or just make documentaries on snuff taking.

Dimitri Petrovich
Secretary for Elleltian Un Ambassador, Vladimir Khernynko


PS: Comrade Khernynko could not have responded to the previous posts as he hasnt any sense of humor.

Ok, I see how it doesn't "force" governments to get involved, but it still deals with governments getting involved. Do you deny this?Yes, and that's the beauty of it. You don't want to get involved? Then don't. You want to get involved? Then do.

The idea is to prevent other people from jamming their economic preferences down your throat. Vote for it if you want to be free of that concern; vote against it if you dream of someday rolling over people and forcing them to dance to your tune.

Mr. Faisano, I don't pretend to have all the answers, and neither should you. When we pass a blocker, we are saying "we, in our infinite wisdom, know that the UN cannot do any good (in our collective opinion), in this area, and that, since there is no chance that anyone wiser than us could come to this body and propose something good here, we want to set up a shield against legislation we don't like". Passing a blocker is like cutting off a limb. You can always decide to not use it, but once you cut it off, it's a lot harder to sew back on.Yes, the homilies against blockers really are getting dull. Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate what in the area of living wages the international community could possibly expand upon other than that which is already covered in this very bill? You have read Clauses 1-7, haven't you? What else would you like the UN to do? If you haven't an answer to this question, then you have no basis for opposing this. After all, it is you in your infinite wisdom who has decided that national rights on wages ought to be scuttled because the UN could legislate something good in the future, you just don't know on what.

Honestly, it's like telling the head of your security detail not to install a home security system on your house, because the next burglar might have chocolate!

To be honest, I cant see any problems with this proposal at all...naturally this would be the case since I support it.

However, the question arises as to if it "scuttles national rights", the short answer to that is: It doesn't.

This proposal allows nations to determine pay scales by their local needs, laws and customs and its only mandate that could be construed as interfering is requiring workers be paid at minimum every 30 days. Hardly what I would call overly intrusive.

There is not any mention of how much a minimum/fair/living wage shall be, except that it shall be able to pay the rent, buy food, and other necessities, according to the local prices, for the worker and one dependent.

As to the blocker effect that has been complained about in this thread, I think its a little more than over blown. Quite frankly Ellelt does not wish to impose its social system on anyone else nor do we want a foreign social system imposed upon us. Sometimes blockers like this are necessary to protect the rights of not only the working peoples to recive a fair wage but also the rights of nations to determine their own pay scales.

I have yet to hear one argument from the opposition to this resolution that is really worth debating.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian UN Ambassador

As the UN representative of Etlotorba, I have reviewed this forum from begginning to end.

When I started reading, I quickly realised there was little point to this proposal.

However, I now realise that the hollow implications were only a diversion to the true reason for this proposal.

I am 100% FOR being fair to workers.
I am 100% FOR the rights of individual governments to make their own decisions when it comes to wages and conditions.
I am 100% FOR this proposal

In the unlikely event of someone proposing something fairer to every nation on the topic of working conditions, I WILL be voting for the repeal.

Nevertheless, for now, I applaud Felix, and I will be voting FOR this proposal.

Dr. Cornelius Adro,
UN delegate,
Etlotorba.

Yes, the homilies against blockers really are getting dull. Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate what in the area of living wages the international community could possibly expand upon other than that which is already covered in this very bill? You have read Clauses 1-7, haven't you? What else would you like the UN to do? If you haven't an answer to this question, then you have no basis for opposing this. After all, it is you in your infinite wisdom who has decided that national rights on wages ought to be scuttled because the UN could legislate something good in the future, you just don't know on what.
I have said nothing of the sort. Ceorana would certainly oppose a resolution imposing a one-size-fits-all system for living wages. But blockers would just slow down the process if a good piece of legislation was ready.

You see, apparently unlike Omigodtheykilledkenny, Ceorana tries to keep an open mind about these issues, and hence we would prefer to keep the books free of roadblocks in case something good comes up

Honestly, it's like telling the head of your security detail not to install a home security system on your house, because the next burglar might have chocolate!
No, it's like signing a binding contract to never jump off a cliff (because you think you'd never want to) when there might be a case where there was a trampoline at the bottom and you were faced with rabid dogs on top of the cliff. What are you trying to protect us from here? Surely you would vote down any measure that imposed a one-size-fits-all wage, wouldn't you?

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations
The Congressional Republic of Ceorana

A fair wage is the pathway to a better life. We have seen that firsthand in Altanar. While we normally don't have much faith in resolutions that merely "suggest" actions, in this case, we feel it is justified. Not every nation is enlightened enough yet to embrace the notion of a fair wage; this proposal provides the means to begin changing that, without forcing undesired change upon nations that are not ready for it. Therefore, the Kingdom of Altanar supports this proposal.

But blockers would just slow down the process if a good piece of legislation was ready.


If you have a better proposal, lets see it.

In a nutshell, If someone has a better proposal, they can repeal this one, on the grounds that it can be improved. This is obviously a circular thing and a time waster.

However, the MORE LIKELY situation is that someone has a proposal that looks good, but really inhibits the freedom of government that our nations require in order to govern effectively.

Of course none of US would vote for a proposal like this. Nevertheless, there are people less intellegent than you, and even less intellegent than me, god forbid.

I see your point, but this "blocker" is the optimum way to maintain our freedom of government at the moment.

Yours Sincerely,
Dr Cornelius Adro,
UN delegate,
Etlotorba

No, it's like signing a binding contract to never jump off a cliff (because you think you'd never want to) when there might be a case where there was a trampoline at the bottom and you were faced with rabid dogs on top of the cliff. What are you trying to protect us from here? Surely you would vote down any measure that imposed a one-size-fits-all wage, wouldn't you?Careful, you'll get Pallatium syndrome.

I think it is reasonable for the UN to establish minimum wage laws but this legislation seems to go far beyond that to the point of socialist nations trying to force their policies of heavy government intervention in the labour market onto others.

One of my concerns is the definition of "fair wage". Who defines a fair wage? I know the government is suppose to based on local conditions but who decides how much a plumber should get paid in comparison to an IT technician, or a manager? In the document you say the cost of food etc should be taken into consideration. That sounds more like things to be taken into consideration for establishing a minimum wage.

The federation of special needs children accepts the social good of a minimum wage outweighs the (possible) negative economic side effects but beyond that we allow market forces and negotiations (collective or individual) to determine "fair" wages. In cases where a person’s wage (minimum or not) cannot support the dependants they take care of our government supplements their income. It seems to me that you are trying to create a whole new wing of the government to regulate how much each worker is paid.

I have, for the time being, voted against.

We aggree on the term "fair wage". So far the notion of the Minimum Wage has worked really bad inside societies. The reason behind that is the fact that the Minimum Wage does not take into consideration things as basic human pride, quality of life etc., and it is at the end solely based on the Basics-to-Survive Rate.

It' s quite easy we think to calculate a "fair" wage, provided that there is the goverment´s will for such a calculation, by simply taking into considerration given marked rates and statistical data of the given society (e.g minimum survival costs, average education costs per child, basic leisure costs...).

Although we found this resolution proposal relevantly weak we have given a FOR vote.

We suggest further elaboration on this same subject in the coming future. One more Resolution Proposal would be necessary for standardizing the regulations.

The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

In cases where a person’s wage (minimum or not) cannot support the dependants they take care of our government supplements their income.

It would be of course better if in a society something like that is not in any case necessary. Forcing people to beg (even from the state), because they cannot support their children I mean.

And you don't need a new branch in your goverment to regulate human dignity wages.

The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

The GPRG will cast its vote FOR this resolution. Good work Felix.

We aggree on the term "fair wage". So far the notion of the Minimum Wage has worked really bad inside societies. The reason behind that is the fact that the Minimum Wage does not take into consideration things as basic human pride, quality of life etc., and it is at the end solely based on the Basics-to-Survive Rate.
Minimum wage is only ever intended to provide a minimum standard of living. Its not suppose to make people feel happy or give them a comfortable lifestyle.

It' s quite easy we think to calculate a "fair" wage, provided that there is the goverment´s will for such a calculation, by simply taking into considerration given marked rates and statistical data of the given society (e.g minimum survival costs, average education costs per child, basic leisure costs...).
The problem with the passage of this resolution is that market rates are removed. Workers dont receive however much their skills are worth to an employer (as in a market driven economy), they receive however much the government tells them their skills are worth.
This bill does not take into consideration the cost of raising several children, it takes into consideration the cost of raising one child and one child only which is a major reason why this legislation will be ineffective in dealing with what it aims to address (poverty etc).

It is the policy of this government to allow workers to be paid whatever the employee and employer consider to be a fair agreement, so long as it is at least enough to live off.
It would be of course better if in a society something like that is not in any case necessary. Forcing people to beg (even from the state), because they cannot support their children I mean.
I agree, it would be great if it was not necessary. But some people at the lower end of the income scale cant earn enough to raise their family. If you accept that its the governments job to act then the question is how. In the case of this resolution people who dont have any dependants get the mandated amount to support a dependant and those with multiple dependants won’t be able to afford to take care of them (since the bill provides for one dependant only). Targeted assistance means that those who actually need help get it, while those who dont need it dont receive it and is therefore a more effective way to help those families.

And you don't need a new branch in your goverment to regulate human dignity wages.
So then who is going to dictate how much each worker gets?

Bottom line: Poverty is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, but this is not the way to do it.

Worker's Unions can easily negotiate fair wages, provided that State legislation is actually backing them up in their negotiations.

We have recommended the abolisment of the term Minimum Wage, exactly because it is based on the basic standard of living.
Humans have several needs that are not included in the "minimum standard". It is the duty of a Government to cover these needs (including the right of dignity...), since after all the "Regierung" of each country represents the People of this country and not the bussiness elites only (or even worst, a deified "market-that-magically-self-adjusts-and-makes-all-perfect").

Economics is one of the levels of Politics... Not the other way around.

Further, the problem of poverty- when basic resources of a society are granted- is always rounding down to a problem of democracy. If we are not mistaken in any democratic constitution there are several passages given to the aforementioned Rights.


The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

All OOC here:

Place yourself in th' position o' a Cap'n 'n ask: If a sailor costs me, say, seven doubloons in wages, plus mandated fringes such as Social Security, unemployment compensation, sick 'n vacation, makin' th' true hourly cost o' hirin' a sailor nine doubloons an hour, does it pay th' Cap'n t' hire a sailor wit' skills so low as t' only enable 'im t' produce six doubloons worth o' swag per hour? Most Cap'n's would reckon this be a losin' economic proposition.
Thar are a couple other rats in th' bilge that force Cap'n's t' respond t' increases in wages that exceed a sailor's productivity. If th' Cap'n did sign on such sailors, he would earn lower profits. Soon, investors would maroon his ship 'n hire ships where returns o' swag are higher.
Thar's another rat in the bilge -- th' customer. If th' Cap'n signs on sailors whose wages exceeded thar productivity, t' cover his costs he would 'ave t' charge ye 'n me higher product or service prices. Th' Cap'n nay know about ye, but he likes lower prices t' higher prices, he 'n his hearties would switch thar patronage t' those ships who adjusted t' th' higher labor costs by reducin' sailors down instead o' prices up.
Th' UN can easily mandate higher wages, but they cannot mandate higher sailor productivity or that Cap'n's hire a particular sailor in th' first place. Those o' us who truly care about th' welfare o' low-skilled sailors should set our course on helpin' them swabs t' become more productive, 'n a good start would be t' do somethin' about th' rotten education that many receive.

Vote against this proposal.

First posts like this give me hope for this forum. *wipes tear*

Careful, you'll get Pallatium syndrome.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!

Honourable General Assembly

I'm an asshole. Sorry.
Don't appologize. At least you admit it:p

I am 100% FOR being fair to workers.
I am 100% FOR the rights of individual governments to make their own decisions when it comes to wages and conditions.
I am 100% FOR this proposal
The fact is that this resolution isn't fair to workers. The resolution is completely redundant, because it achieves nothing.

I will admit that I don´t like having a minimum wage system, but I am honest enough to point out that the resolution will not give people better wages, it will not improve their standard of living.
However it WILL:

create inflaton
higher interest rates
create a bigger economic gap between employed and unemployed
make the price of wares rise
give the employers an excuse to mistreat their workers
stand in the way of development in the third world, again the greedy unions of the developed world stop the third world's possibility to develope


This resolution is of no use, and it only makes things worse for those it is intended to help.

G. S. Ólafsson
Aquilonius Gloria Ambassador to the UN
Isafold Regional Delegate

Read this post if you think this resolution forces a minimum wage upon your nation.

.....................You both realize, don't you, that the resolution doesn't actually require you to enact minimum wage laws or anything of the sort, right?(II) All UN nations are strongly encouraged to enact legislation:“Strongly encouraged” and “urged” are not mandatory clauses, unlike “must” or “required”, “may not” or “forbidden”Me: “I strongly encourage you to buy an AMW. Help Allemande's economy!”

You: “F_ck Allemande. I'm strongly disinclined to buy an AMW. Instead I'm strongly motivated to buy a Fnord, and I strongly urge you to mind your own business and shut the f_ck up.”Translation: You can “strongly encourage” a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Also, note this:(VIII) It is affirmed that UN nations shall retain the right to make final decisions in all matters concerning wages and compensation, taking into account local economic conditions and factors affecting the economic well-being of all their citizenry.Translation: It's ultimately your decision to decide what to do (if anything) about this.

You want a Minimum Wage Law? Pass one. You want a Living Wage Law? Pass one. You want to ignore wages altogether and enact an Earned Income Credit¹²? Pass One. You want to rely on subsidized vocational training and student loans or tuition tax credits to improve worker skills and just let the market take care of it? Do that? You think that anything government might do is f_ck_ng commie meddling in the great and glorious free market, praise be to Rand? Do nothing at all.

That's why this resolution has broad multifactional support: it allows you to choose your own poison, while limiting the power of the U.N. to gainsay you.

Anyway, this is my last post in this debate (actually, my last post until next week³); I'll leave it to Felix (and his deputies) to defenestrate those hopelessly confused souls who just don't grasp the foregoing. I'm outta here.

<Tom the janito (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=11967612)r grabs hang glider, tosses self out window>

EDIT : <voice receding as hang glider soars away from window>However it WILL:

* create inflaton
* higher interest rates
* create a bigger economic gap between employed and unemployed
* make the price of wares rise
* give the employers an excuse to mistreat their workers
* stand in the way of development in the third world, again the greedy unions of the developed world stop the third world's possibility to develope (sp)You forgot: Kill/cure puppies (whichever you abhor)
Cause/cure cancer (ditto [oh, God - did I say 'ditto (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html)'?!?!?])Did you bring your parachute? It's a long way down. At least there's a nice pile of bodies to cushion the impact...
_________________________

¹For you Brits, Ozzies, et al., a little known feature of the American tax code that tax preparation firms like H&R Block and Jackson-Hewitt love due to the fact that it lets them increase the tax returns of certain lower income taxpayers by several hundred dollars, winning loyal customers in droves; it provides the working poor (persons earning less than $20,000/year) a refundable tax credit that increases with earned income up to around $16,000/year, with the key word here being “refundable” (it's treated ike additional withholding so that the taxpayer is able to collect as part of their refund whatever amount of the credit isn't soaked up in taxes); the result is that the poor are incentivized to work, and the working poor incentivized to get higher paying jobs. The credit is a godsend for working single parents with low income and 1-3 children; it can often add $1,000-$1,500 (or more) to their returns, even if they don't have any tax liability or withholding to speak of.

²This wouldn't be a proper Community Property post without a footnote, now would it?

³Keep the cheering to a dull roar; there are other people using Jolt, y'know.

.

I will admit that I don´t like having a minimum wage system, but I am honest enough to point out that the resolution will not give people better wages, it will not improve their standard of living.
However it WILL:

create inflaton
higher interest rates
create a bigger economic gap between employed and unemployed
make the price of wares rise
give the employers an excuse to mistreat their workers
stand in the way of development in the third world, again the greedy unions of the developed world stop the third world's possibility to develope


This resolution is of no use, and it only makes things worse for those it is intended to help.

G. S. Ólafsson
Aquilonius Gloria Ambassador to the UN
Isafold Regional Delegate


First off this proposal has nothing to do what so ever concerning a minimum wage as is usually determined in the mythical world of RL. This proposal allows for workers to be paid a fair wage, that is cognizant of the need to support one dependent and themselves.

As the bill reads, If a nation uses the market system to determine wages, it may continue to do so. If a country, Ellelt for example, has a standardized wage system where workers are paid a fixed rate determined by their work, for example an electrical engineer gets paid more than a hamburger maker, the nation can continue to that as well.

What the proposal does do, is it mandates workers be paid a rate capable of supporting themselves and at least one dependent. Be paid every 30 days minimum. Workers shall not be denied their pay for the work they do--that is prohibits back-door slavery. This proposal by the blocker component prevents other nations for legislating their social system onto other nations.

Now on to the list of economic concerns that have been brought up concerning this proposal.

create inflaton

Inflation is going to happen anyway, particularly if the monetary system is based on paper money rather than a metallic or commodity standard. There are many causes for inflation; however, the two most widely accepted causes by both Marxist and Non-Marxist economists are Demand-Push inflation (where demand for goods increases prices leading to inflation) and Supply-Pull (where the shortage of a good causes the rising of prices).

One other factor in inflation that is very hard to control is currency-velocity, that is the speed at which the currency circulates, the faster the currency is exchanged the more the economy appears to be inflated. The best way to explain it is to use an example from physics--the hot-air balloon--the heating of the air excites the air molecules causing them to move faster thereby "inflating" the balloon.

This proposal will not create inflation nor will it destroy inflation. It does however, prevent the killing of puppies on television.

higher interest rates

Higher interest rates are based upon national fiscal policy, during times of inflation to slow the rate of inflation central banks increase interest, the idea being that by earning higher rates of interest people will be more likely to save their money in banks rather then spend it or invest it. Also the rising of interest rates increase the costs of borrowing money, preventing some from borrowing it leading to a decrease in over all supply.

create a bigger economic gap between employed and unemployed

Again, It does not in and of itself. Gaps between employed and unemployed persons arise from the social system within a given nation.

Lets compare Ellelt and Uber-capitalist-country x. Ellelt has full employment because we consider education a job. When a worker's job in Ellelt becomes obsolete depending on that worker's health and age he has three options: Go to the vocational training school and receive a stipend to live on while he is retrained for a job that is in demand, Join the Military, or retire. In Uber-capitalist-country x however, the worker has three choices: find a new job, join the military, or starve.

All social inequalities arise out of the the economic base of a nation and the political superstructure attached to it.

make the price of wares rise

See my answer to inflation...same thing.

give the employers an excuse to mistreat their workers

I would like the author of the above post to show me the article where the proposal says that.

stand in the way of development in the third world, again the greedy unions of the developed world stop the third world's possibility to develope

Ellelt is a developing nation, and we whole-heartedly support this proposal. Rather by allowing nations to determine wage scales, by the use of their social norms, laws and customs, as well as local economic conditions, it does not inhibit in any way the economic growth and development of the developing world.

Vladimir Khernynko
UN Ambassador for U.S.S. Ellelt

OOC:
And before Felix accuses me of playing Who Wants to be an Economist I would like to point out that I have taken many courses in economics while working on my degree in ploitcal science in RL.

OOC:
And before Felix accuses me of playing Who Wants to be an Economist I would like to point out that I have taken many courses in economics while working on my degree in ploitcal science in RL.

OOC: Ah, memories. I used to enjoy ripping people like you apart in my classes when I was working on my Political Science degree. ;)

Good answer. I like you.

Thank you. I'm glad to have your approval.

OOC:
And before Felix accuses me of playing Who Wants to be an Economist I would like to point out that I have taken many courses in economics while working on my degree in ploitcal science in RL.
OOC: I can tell that I´m an economist, however that does not matter.

I recomend that you read my first post where I point out the true difficulties in the resolution. These are based on two factors, first and foremost, the one where you state and admit that this resolution does nothing, so it must be useless. The second is where you state that wages will have to count in one dependent:
First off this proposal has nothing to do what so ever concerning a minimum wage as is usually determined in the mythical world of RL. This proposal allows for workers to be paid a fair wage, that is cognizant of the need to support one dependent and themselves.
This means higher salaries. Or does that dependent live on the same salary as before...?

I will point out that the market of labour (as you should know if you have taken any economic course) regulates it self, it determines wages by supply and demand for labour. Therefore it is taken into account all those factors that should determine fair wages.

When you state that workers should be compensated for the work they do and paid every thirty days, this could be a resolution for itself, however the resolution at hand is full of political jibber jabber, and actually proposes an increased spending on UN bereaucracy. This is why the resolution is horrid.

I urge you to read my first post where my economic arguments are clear, they are far to long to write the once again.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=507747&page=3

OOC: I can tell that I´m an economist, however that does not matter.



OOC: Personally, I would like to know what degrees you have, and from where. I have a Bachelor's of Political Science...currently going for my master's right now with a minor in economics from the University of Florida, which in in the states.

IC:

The labor market does regulate itself, true, it regulates itself to the minimum pay scale possible. That does not mean it is a fair or living wage. For example a man who works at a street sweeping job might be paid 5 Rubles (the Elleltian currency) per hour worked but that would not even begin to cover rent, let alone food, or clothing, or other needs that this one person has.

The market regulation you speak of is capitalist clap-trap for: the rich will get richer, the poor poorer. The UN in its desire to decrease social inequality should addopt this proposal.

As for it not doing anything...it establishes that workers shall be paid a fair wage as set according to national laws, and customs. If thats not doing something, however slight, I will put a ladies undergarment on my head and proceed to refer to myself as Queen Sally.

Vladimir Khernynko
UN Ambassador from the U.S.S. Ellelt.

Hi, Sally!

The United States is not even close to a free market economy. Almost every single company gets government subsidies, built in tax breaks, and massive corporate welfare. This includes tariffs, no bid military contracts, and other benefits too numerous to count. The United States is very much a mixed economy. This goes to both sides of the fence big breaks for oil, as well as alternative fuel, farms, and a huge amount of other pork.

The United States is not even close to a free market economy. Almost every single company gets government subsidies, built in tax breaks, and massive corporate welfare. This includes tariffs, no bid military contracts, and other benefits too numerous to count. The United States is very much a mixed economy. This goes to both sides of the fence big breaks for oil, as well as alternative fuel, farms, and a huge amount of other pork.

What is this United States of which you speak?

I have said nothing of the sort. Ceorana would certainly oppose a resolution imposing a one-size-fits-all system for living wages. But blockers would just slow down the process if a good piece of legislation was ready.

You see, apparently unlike Omigodtheykilledkenny, Ceorana tries to keep an open mind about these issues, and hence we would prefer to keep the books free of roadblocks in case something good comes upWe cannot keep an open mind for something we cannot see. We asked for something tangible that could be introduced beyond the mandate of the first seven clauses of this resolution and you have produced none; hence, we refuse to err on the side of restricting national rights on the vain hope that "something good" may come up in the future. We support this legislation. Good day.

I had originally voted against this resolution, but upon careful rereading of the terms, I have decided to change my vote to a solid 'yes'. My reasons are my own. Suffice to say that it is absolutely unacceptable for a predecided amount of wages owed to not be paid in a timely manner. Promises must be kept, agreements honoured. There are no exceptions. A signature on a contract is not just a scrawl on parchment--it is a promise, a vow to abide by the terms of a contract. In addition, it is unacceptable to form a contract that obviously favours one party to a ridiculous degree.

Once more, a firm 'yes' on this resolution. I encourage other delegates to vote affirmatively as well.

IC:

The labor market does regulate itself, true, it regulates itself to the minimum pay scale possible. That does not mean it is a fair or living wage. For example a man who works at a street sweeping job might be paid 5 Rubles (the Elleltian currency) per hour worked but that would not even begin to cover rent, let alone food, or clothing, or other needs that this one person has.

The market regulation you speak of is capitalist clap-trap for: the rich will get richer, the poor poorer. The UN in its desire to decrease social inequality should addopt this proposal.

As for it not doing anything...it establishes that workers shall be paid a fair wage as set according to national laws, and customs. If thats not doing something, however slight, I will put a ladies undergarment on my head and proceed to refer to myself as Queen Sally.

Vladimir Khernynko
UN Ambassador from the U.S.S. Ellelt.

I do not believe that the labor market organizes itself toward minimum scale. This is patently untrue in the Great Star Empire, which is a nearly rabid capitalist nation. We try to avoid the word "capitalist," because of the connotations as well as the actual meaning of the word, but we are most assuredly a free-market, free-trade, libertarian, laissez-faire nation. There are a few other descriptors I'm leaving out for brevity's sake.

Our nation has had the good fortune to avoid the horrors of capitalisation and modernization that much of the rest of the NS universe has gone through. Our market actually does self-regulate. We also have no minimum wage. We also have a thriving economy, burgeoning middle classes, and hugely progressive social policies. Try to tell me that we are "unfair capitalists"

And if that street sweeper doesn't like his job, then he has the opportunity to leave and get another that pays more money. If the people don't want to work for certain wages, the most logical solution is to raise the wages.

Have we stated our support for this resolution? Because we've just been swung even further in support.

Excuse me, but anyone voting against this proposal is seriously lacking in brain function.

Thats not to say that I am not seriously lacking in brain function.

Anyway....

1. this bill does nothing but encourage, nothing is manditory, except the actual payment of wages. WHICH YOU SHOULD DO ANYWAY.

2. This bill prevents people from proposing something that seriously damages my right to govern my country the way that I want to. Indeed I know that every leader is in the same boat here. If this bill goes forward, none of you will have to change anything. YOU will be ENCOURAGED to change things, but you don't have to.

I'm seriously tired of hearing these points argued over and over again. If you are going to post something:

1. READ THE PROPOSAL FIRST.

2. Read the previous Replies on this thread.

Thankyou and good day,
Voting FOR,
Cornelius Adro,
Delegate of the region of Pessimists Annonymous,
Delegate of Etlotorba.

The democratic repubblic of Papalla will support the proposal for the following reason:
1)a fair wage will help the economic growth for any country as the index of spending for lower class is greater than higher class so an income reditribution in favour of lower class will speed up the economy
2) a fair wage for all countries will reduce off-shore outsourcing of industry
3) fair wages will create market to export goods and service
4) fair wages will reduce the possibility to create conflict in the poorer country and avoid internal conflict that might develop dictatorship or terrorist regime

Cidrolin
The president of the democratic repubblic of Papalle

I've got a question about

(V) Wages shall be paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days in duration.

Okay, what if I'm a contractor and I agree to build a building with a build time of six months?

Shouldn't I be paid upon completion?

If the contractor can sort of put up a good front for 30 days, collect 1/6th of the total money, and then disappear having done minimal work, the property owner has lost a lot of money and time.


Does this clause restrict contractors from making alternative pay arrangements?

What if I want to avoid falling into a higher tax bracket by delaying my income payments until after the current tax year??

I've got a question about

(V) Wages shall be paid on a regular basis not to exceed 30 days in duration.

Okay, what if I'm a contractor and I agree to build a building with a build time of six months?

Shouldn't I be paid upon completion?

If the contractor can sort of put up a good front for 30 days, collect 1/6th of the total money, and then disappear having done minimal work, the property owner has lost a lot of money and time.


Does this clause restrict contractors from making alternative pay arrangements?

What if I want to avoid falling into a higher tax bracket by delaying my income payments until after the current tax year??
If you are a contractor who builds buildings then you are a business, not a worker. The Resolution defines "wage" as: "any compensation, monetary or otherwise, which workers receive in exchange for their labor". It doesn't define "worker". I'm sure your government, as well as the The United Nations Wage Adjustment Advisory Commission, will rule that building contractors are businesses, not workers. Basically, it will default to whatever the current legal definition of "worker" is in your nation.

Also, if you "sort of put up a good front for 30 days, collect 1/6th of the total money, and then disappear having done minimal work", you are guilty of breach of contract and your client will SUE YOU. That's what I'd do.

OOC: Personally, I would like to know what degrees you have, and from where. I have a Bachelor's of Political Science...currently going for my master's right now with a minor in economics from the University of Florida, which in in the states.
OOC: I have a Bachelors degree in Social Economics from the University of Oslo, and I am now working on a Bachelors degree in Political Science at the University of Iceland. I´m hoping to finish with a MA degree in International Affairs from the University of Edinburgh.

The rest will be IC:
The market regulation you speak of is capitalist clap-trap for: the rich will get richer, the poor poorer.
I did not claim to be a non-negotiating capitalist. However your theory on capitalism and poverty is quite unsubstansial. I´m more a follower of Adam Smith, rather than John Maynard Keynes. And if you truly know economic and political theory you will know that Adam Smith was no Libertarian.

As for it not doing anything...it establishes that workers shall be paid a fair wage as set according to national laws, and customs.
Thank you for making my point. I would expect every worker to paid according to national laws and customs already (without the resolution). If they are not, then it is not a national law or custom.

Ellelt I enjoy discussing with you and I guess we will find many interesting disagreements in the future, but from now on I will call you Queen Sally. You better find those undergarments!:D

The democratic repubblic of Papalla will support the proposal for the following reason:
1)a fair wage will help the economic growth for any country as the index of spending for lower class is greater than higher class so an income reditribution in favour of lower class will speed up the economy
2) a fair wage for all countries will reduce off-shore outsourcing of industry
3) fair wages will create market to export goods and service
4) fair wages will reduce the possibility to create conflict in the poorer country and avoid internal conflict that might develop dictatorship or terrorist regime
Hmmm... not exactly...
1) This only counts if there is a significant proporsion of the population working as employees and not farmers, living off of their own produce. This only makes things worse in economies with 1-4% unemployment where it will create inflation.
2)According to the resolution at hand there won't be a universal fair salary, still there will be huge differences between countries, and therefore still a reason for companies to outsource.
3)So you only wan't to export, this will keep the poor poor.
4)We already have several Communist Dictatorships in this world where the wages would be catagorised as fair, and Democracies where there are many poor. Income has nothing to do with the form of Government.

1. this bill does nothing but encourage, nothing is manditory, except the actual payment of wages. WHICH YOU SHOULD DO ANYWAY.
So what use is the resolution in the first place? It is just full of political jibber jabber, and is trying to enforce selfdetermination, wich I agree with. But hiding it in a resolution that is utterly useless is not honourable.

Furthermore I will point out th following in the resolution:
(VII) The United Nations Wage Adjustment Advisory Commission is hereby established to provide guidance and assistance to UN member nations in determining appropriate wages in their individual nations.
This is increasing UN expenditure and therefore also membership fees, tax on my people, and for what? To keep things as they are? This is rediculous!

G. S. Ólafsson
Aquilonius Gloria Ambassador to the UN
Isafold Regional Delegate

This is increasing UN expenditure and therefore also membership fees, tax on my people, and for what? To keep things as they are? This is rediculous!



Establishing this wage comission is not going to increase expenditure, as it wont be doing anything. I'll run the damn thing if you want, It'll take about zero percent time and effort.

Not Honorable? Not Honorable?
This bill is not about improving the conditions of the worker at all. It is only about retaining the freedom of government that our nations enjoy. If another proposal were to be passed (namely a more socialist one), it could seriously damage the governments and economies of the many UN nation states.

I'm supporting this bill, in the absence of a better approach to working conditions that will work for everybody.

If you have a better proposal I'd like to see it, but i suspect it would be more likely that a nation with aready existing labor rights proposes for everybody to adopt their way of life. I don't want to see that happen, and it wont if this proposal is passed.

Cornelius Adro,
Delegate of Pessimists annonymous,
Delegate of Etlotorba.

OOC: I have a Bachelors degree in Social Economics from the University of Oslo, and I am now working on a Bachelors degree in Political Science at the University of Iceland. I´m hoping to finish with a MA degree in International Affairs from the University of Edinburgh.


First and foremost, would all of you do everyone a favour and stop being self righteous wankers. I, like a vast majority of other people (or atleast I hope so, or my whole argument will be entierly scrwed) Couldn't give a flying 'f' how many qualifications or degrees you have.

Shutup. Stop Bragging. There's people here (not including myself mind you..this is fairly feeble.) with less qualifications who are better at forming opinions than you.

Now. Back to the bill, sure, at first glance it sounds incredibly stupid and it brings the intelligence of its creator into question....but so do alot of things. HOWEVER it is trying to ensure equality and fairness for the people of the world. The fact of the matter is, that even if they said everyone HAD to do it, there would STILL be people who wouldn't.

It happens with almost everything, get used to it.

It is trying to address a very real problem in today's world and, whilst it isn't the most proactive way to combat it, atleast they're trying. Any nations who DON'T want to do this...well..I'd have to say THEY'RE not honourable.

But hiding

It isn't hidden, it's right there in the text for all to see.

it in a resolution that is utterly useless

You may consider it useless, others may have a differing opinion on the matter. I'm not going to bother explaining my reasoning or thought process again. Instead I'll repeat my comment from earlier and will continue to repeat it until I get tired of hearing it.
OOC: It is true that Article (VIII) would prevent future misguided attempts to pass binding Minimum Wage and Living Wage type resolutions. For the better part of the last year, I tried to come up with a way to write a Living Wage Resolution. This very Resolution was submitted in that form more than once, drawing the ire of Cluich and others, I might add. Those who know me can attest to this.

In the end, I decided that it was just not possible to write such a proposal mandating a living wage for the entire UN without wrecking economies in the process. Entering into an agreement to institute a living wage voluntarily (like when joining the IFTA) is one thing. Mandating it for all 29,329 UN members with wildly varying currencies, exchange rates and costs of living is quite another. I decided that the best course would be to block that particular avenue of legislation, while at the same time using the Resolution to "push" nations in the direction of fair wages.

is not honourable.

Shall we fight a duel, sir? Choose your weapon and name your second! As for myself, I choose as second His Exellency Sir Cyril Gordon Muffplaster Radionov Casaba O'Mahoney Askalan DeDerrier von Holsterman Wyznyjytski Ungern-Sturmberg Banerjee Svenssen M'Beki Vicenzo MacLehose-Strangways-Jones III, KCRC LOG of Cobdenia. A man well versed, no doubt, in the protocols of dueling.

*removes a glove and slaps G. S. Ólafsson across the face with it*

This is increasing UN expenditure and therefore also membership fees, tax on my people

Based on what? I'm not going to argue that we don't pay membership fees. The money to run this place has to come from somewhere. However, we have no way of knowing how large the budget is or what the projected outlays are for the fiscal year. For all we know money has already been set aside for the creation of X number of new committees.

Establishing this wage comission is not going to increase expenditure, as it wont be doing anything. I'll run the damn thing if you want, It'll take about zero percent time and effort.

Not Honorable? Not Honorable?
This bill is not about improving the conditions of the worker at all. It is only about retaining the freedom of government that our nations enjoy. If another proposal were to be passed (namely a more socialist one), it could seriously damage the governments and economies of the many UN nation states.

I'm supporting this bill, in the absence of a better approach to working conditions that will work for everybody.

If you have a better proposal I'd like to see it, but i suspect it would be more likely that a nation with aready existing labor rights proposes for everybody to adopt their way of life. I don't want to see that happen, and it wont if this proposal is passed.

Cornelius Adro,
Delegate of Pessimists annonymous,
Delegate of Etlotorba.

So, presumably you would also be in favour of a resolution that encouraged nations to pursue free market measures rather than socialist measures to reduce poverty and grant workers more freedoms?

Now. Back to the bill, sure, at first glance it sounds incredibly stupid and it brings the intelligence of its creator into question....but so do alot of things.
What things? What are you talking about? Speak!

I believe that if a country wants to enact laws in which to try and better its lower class people then it should be able to that with out the interefernece from the U.N. But in my opinion most countries with a highly regulated economic system are bound for failure. here are some examples. Ancient Chine was a glorius civilization with many wonderful achievemnet sthat they could be proud of but as time went on the government decided that it would be in the country's best interest to limit the contact with forign nations and in doing so they succesfully and efficiently destroyed there economic and technological edge. The same occured with Japan until the 1800's. In 1900's Russia was in a time of economic hardship and the bolsheviks promised revolution and an equal start for the country. They did good on their promise but it was doomed to failure becuase of the regulations on how businesses could treat their employees and how much to pay them. Sometimes a employee is not worth minumum wage and sometimes a struggling company can't pay that and so they go under. I believ that if there is very little regulation on business it will grow like a weed in a flower gardin but under too much regulation and business will sink like a rock in the ocean. If you look at modern countries with very little regulation on how much they pay there workers such as China and India you will notice a dramatic increase in the economic power they hold so I believe that no government should be forced to limit their industry in such a manner.

long live laissez faire
P.S. please endorse a clean mind act so i can get it passed

I believe that if a country wants to enact laws in which to try and better its lower class people then it should be able to that with out the interefernece from the U.N. But in my opinion most countries with a highly regulated economic system are bound for failure. here are some examples. Ancient Chine was a glorius civilization with many wonderful achievemnet sthat they could be proud of but as time went on the government decided that it would be in the country's best interest to limit the contact with forign nations and in doing so they succesfully and efficiently destroyed there economic and technological edge. The same occured with Japan until the 1800's. In 1900's Russia was in a time of economic hardship and the bolsheviks promised revolution and an equal start for the country. They did good on their promise but it was doomed to failure becuase of the regulations on how businesses could treat their employees and how much to pay them. Sometimes a employee is not worth minumum wage and sometimes a struggling company can't pay that and so they go under. I believ that if there is very little regulation on business it will grow like a weed in a flower gardin but under too much regulation and business will sink like a rock in the ocean. If you look at modern countries with very little regulation on how much they pay there workers such as China and India you will notice a dramatic increase in the economic power they hold so I believe that no government should be forced to limit their industry in such a manner.

Thank you for your response I always like responding to posts like this that feature huge blocks of text and long rambling sentences detailing the socio-economic political and economic histories of RL nations like china japan and russia by responding in kind. I was wondering since i wonder about a lot of things if you would mind explaining how this is relevant to the discussion at hand since it doesn't seem to me to have any relevance at all but I don't know maybe that's just me because sometimes I have songs going through my head like I do right now and I get sort of distracted. These days I may not be so happy after all, after all that I have gained I still feel sad when I'm all alone I may have felt that path? I may not be so swift after all all the chances you have given me I just let you go I guess I've been like this before Sometimes I can't stand up and be a man but God why would I lose it now when I need my strength at hand? You know sometimes I can be real cool! All the words just seem to flow right along but when that girl approaches me well it all goes wrong.....Sorry, lost my train of thought there.

P.S. please endorse a clean mind act so i can get it passed

No.

What things? What are you talking about? Speak!

I think what the speaker from Manic Spinsters is trying to say, is that there are a lot of things look/seem stupid.

I don't believe the speaker meant you to take any personal offense.

As for your proposal Felix, you are quite clearly on the right track.
I think we need to do more to promote the FOR vote outside this forum, as it seems that the same arguements are being repeated over and over again, and I seriously doubt whether we are really getting anywhere.

For everyone else,
This proposal has no disadvantages, it doesn't enforce anything, its a 'nice' proposal. If you have a problem with it, then I have a problem with YOU.

If you have a problem with a 'nice' proposal, then you obviously aren't very 'nice' yourself. I like 'nice' people.
Diplomacy is the aim of the game, something you un-'nice' people fail to realise.

I'm rambling, but basically, quit complaining about the proposal.
I haven't heard one decent arguement Against the proposal.

So, presumably you would also be in favour of a resolution that encouraged nations to pursue free market measures rather than socialist measures to reduce poverty and grant workers more freedoms?

Oh, I am in favour of governments choosing their own way to deal with Working Conditions. That's why this bill works for me, and all of you.

Good day,
Dr Cornelius Adro,
Delegate of Pessimists Annonymous,
Delegate of Etlotorba.

And since I'm the ghost of Adam Smith, my economics wang is bigger than the rest of you combined. Enough with the degree-wanking people. It's irrelevent and nobody cares.

Honestly, I'm just glad to see some newer posters getting into the swing of things.

I agree with articles 1,4,5,6 and 8 but I really don’t see the point in the rest.

I hear supporters rave on about how much it will improve workers pay and standards of living, and then turn around and say well it dosnt actually force you to enact fair wage laws so your loosing nothing. This means it will do nothing to help workers, because countries that are more sympathetic to the fair wage movement will enact legislation with or without this proposal, and countries who are not wont. Half of this proposal is effectively useless.
"Fair wages" are the stated goal of this document, not the rights of nations to determine their own wages and basic workers rights. The latter 2 being used to make people support "encouraging fair wages" when they should be two separate proposals.


Establishing this wage comission is not going to increase expenditure, as it wont be doing anything.

That was kind of the point, it does nothing so therefore there is no reason to have it.


And could the delegate from Etlotorba please refrain from making personal attacks.

Shall we fight a duel, sir? Choose your weapon and name your second! As for myself, I choose as second His Exellency Sir Cyril Gordon Muffplaster Radionov Casaba O'Mahoney Askalan DeDerrier von Holsterman Wyznyjytski Ungern-Sturmberg Banerjee Svenssen M'Beki Vicenzo MacLehose-Strangways-Jones III, KCRC LOG of Cobdenia. A man well versed, no doubt, in the protocols of dueling.

*removes a glove and slaps G. S. Ólafsson across the face with it*

It would be an honour to serve as your second, Comrade. I have always found you to be of good character, whereas this upstart I know nothing of.

I ask the Mr Olaffson to name his second, so that we can converse over the particulars of the duel. As the insulted party, Comrade Felix has the choice of weapon.

I hear supporters rave on about how much it will improve workers pay and standards of living, and then turn around and say well it dosnt actually force you to enact fair wage laws so your loosing nothing. This means it will do nothing to help workers, because countries that are more sympathetic to the fair wage movement will enact legislation with or without this proposal, and countries who are not wont. Half of this proposal is effectively useless.

I must have missed the part where supporters of the resolution were raving about it improving workers pay and standard of living. Care to direct me to those discussions?

In our Nation everybody has at least 1 Master in Economics.

After that,whoever is capable can continue to the primary school...;)

The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

Meawhile...

We have this feeling that the conversation is a bit out of track...

The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

I must have missed the part where supporters of the resolution were raving about it improving workers pay and standard of living. Care to direct me to those discussions?

Obviously this is referring-at least partly- to our opinion...

However, our thesis was actually that a "fair wage legislation" is NEEDED and SHOULD AIM at reducing poverty and raising the standards of living.

We have already stated that we find this Resolution proposal WEAK; however, we voted FOR because it is a start.

The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

I must have missed the part where supporters of the resolution were raving about it improving workers pay and standard of living. Care to direct me to those discussions?
That was the point of the fair wage part. Supposedly some workers are not earning enough to live comfortably off, so nations should be encouraged to mandate a high enough wage so that they can live a comfortable lifestyle.

That was the point of the fair wage part. Supposedly some workers are not earning enough to live comfortably off, so nations should be encouraged to mandate a high enough wage so that they can live a comfortable lifestyle.

I really don't need a plot summary of your interpretation of the resolution, nor is that what I'm asking for.

What I'm looking for are links to these ravings about improving workers pay and such by the supporters of the resolution.

As this proposal incorrectly addresses non-profits - which are NOT 100% volunteer run and DO have operating costs that include paying their employees, who also deserve a fair wage - I'm against it. It's only going to have to be repealed in order for something better to be added.

One worker and one dependent should be contempled in the wage says in the resolution... well in devolped countries it should be enough, but and where there are 6,7 dependents and only 1 worker? What's the solution?

If this resolution to steal from the rich and give to the poor passes, we will fight with all legal means possible. We institute a tax system that taxes lower wage earners at a HIGHER RATE and higher wage earner at a lower rate. We will redistribute the wealth until those who do more for the society (by creating enterprices) will be compensated at a rate comenurate with their contribution and those who do less (by showing up for their jobs and doing them without putting any creative effort into advancing society) will also be compnesated at a comensurate rate.
The true test of every civilization is whether it can fight the forces of nihilism that result from boredom (which itself results from success of civilization). The test is whether the civilization can fight this nihilism without becoming more destructive than the nihilists themselves.
We strongly believe that dictating to business owners how to spend their money (other than forbidding them to directly harm people) must be outside of the sphere of the government. Anything else is theft and we will treat it as such.

If this resolution to steal from the rich and give to the poor passes, we will fight with all legal means possible.

An ultimatum? *laughs*

My dear sir, there are no legal means available to you... other trying to find and exploit loopholes in the text itself. Your government will be brought into automatic compliance the moment this law passes.

I'm also curious to know what you think this proposal actually does.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

One worker and one dependent should be contempled in the wage says in the resolution... well in devolped countries it should be enough, but and where there are 6,7 dependents and only 1 worker? What's the solution?

Then 5 or 6 dependents will probably starve to death. The solution? You take in to account number of dependants when calculating minimum wage... then of course you have to be careful of bludgers cheating the system by regestering their 37 pet fleas as 37 dependants... or you could let them all fend for themself... fact of the matter is this legislation would let you deal (or not deal) with minimum wages however you see fit.

Edit: Ariddia seemes to be ontop of Pythagorian's 'ultimatum' but I will add this... I suggest going back and reading the proposition, you might want to enlist the aid of dictionary.com if your still having trouble understanding what the bill is actually supposed to achieve...

The best way to enforce minimum wage is NOT to create laws, but to make it appear inhumane in the eyes of the public. The happier the customers are with the ethics of the business, the more likely the customer will remain loyal and promotional.

Great argument :)

How would this resolution affect for profit start ups? If 5 people start a business, incorporate, etc. but can't pay themselves for a year, does that violate this law?

My dear sir, there are no legal means available to you... other trying to find and exploit loopholes in the text itself. Your government will be brought into automatic compliance the moment this law passes.

Non compliance is tricky, but it can be done legally. It ends up being welfare for lawyers though.

One worker and one dependent should be contempled in the wage says in the resolution... well in devolped countries it should be enough, but and where there are 6,7 dependents and only 1 worker? What's the solution?

That would have to be covered at the national/local level. One dependent is what is passable at the UN level, and it is more important that this resolution pass than worrying about the 6 or 7 dependents a worker may or may not have.

Daverana: As this proposal incorrectly addresses non-profits - which are NOT 100% volunteer run and DO have operating costs that include paying their employees, who also deserve a fair wage - I'm against it. It's only going to have to be repealed in order for something better to be added.

I Expect you already have such a proposal?

If the UN decides to repeal this resolution...which is always possible, any resolution can be repealed provided one can get a repeal passed. However, If this resolution passes, it will probably be very hard to get it repealed.

OOC:
I did not mean to brag, and in fact I was not. Ellelt asked what qualifications I had, I answered: "it does not matter", still he pursued with his questioning, I simply answered him, I have nothing to hide.

IC:
*removes a glove and slaps G. S. Ólafsson across the face with it*
*Mr. Ólafsson turnes his head and smiles*
You have your duel Sir! My second will be Lord Laxness II von Steierburg. Choose your weapon Sir.
*Beeing a bit of a violent man Ambassador Ólafsson gets a bit carried away*
Cry havoc let slip the dogs of war!
*He then settles down and with great humility*
I must ask: Are we to be duelling according to continental traditions?

The fact is that I believe in honourable politics, my life is based on moral decency and respect for the taxpayer. My solution would be not to create a block, but just to fight all socialist proposals. Yes it would be harder, but I would keep my nations honour.

Furthermore although a commission would not be doing anything does not mean that you wouldn't have heaps of people getting paid for doing nothing. UN bereaucracy is in principle based on paying people for doing nothing. And as a principle "fair wage" should not even be an issue for the UN to get involved in at all, the Discussion should not exist at all within the UN building.

G. S. Ólafsson
Aquilonius Gloria Ambassador to the UN
Isafold Regional Delegate

*Mr. Ólafsson turnes his head and smiles*
You have your duel Sir! My second will be Lord Laxness II von Steierburg. Choose your weapon Sir.
*Beeing a bit of a violent man Ambassador Ólafsson gets a bit carried away*
Cry havoc let slip the dogs of war!
*He then settles down and with great humility*
I must ask: Are we to be duelling according to continental traditions?

Pistols at dawn! My second, His Exellency Sir Cyril Gordon Muffplaster Radionov Casaba O'Mahoney Askalan DeDerrier von Holsterman Wyznyjytski Ungern-Sturmberg Banerjee Svenssen M'Beki Vicenzo MacLehose-Strangways-Jones III, KCRC LOG of Cobdenia shall make the arrangements.

*turns and storms away in a huff*

Can you not control your own nation and it's ability to provide wealth to it's people? I, for one, do not agree with relinquishing such control, and have such voted against sed proposal, no matter how 'fair' it seems to some, or 'unfair' it can seem to others... I prefer to keep my ability to manage my nations wealth, be it rich or poor.

First and foremost, would all of you do everyone a favour and stop being self righteous wankers. I, like a vast majority of other people (or atleast I hope so, or my whole argument will be entierly scrwed) Couldn't give a flying 'f' how many qualifications or degrees you have.

Shutup. Stop Bragging. There's people here (not including myself mind you..this is fairly feeble.) with less qualifications who are better at forming opinions than you.

Dropped out of primary school, didn't you?

Now. Back to the bill, sure, at first glance it sounds incredibly stupid and it brings the intelligence of its creator into question....but so do alot of things.

I do hope you're not calling the intelligence of the proposal's author into question. Though he and I are often on opposite sides of debates, there is no question as to his intelligence. Yours, however...yikes.

HOWEVER it is trying to ensure equality and fairness for the people of the world. The fact of the matter is, that even if they said everyone HAD to do it, there would STILL be people who wouldn't.

Yeah, we work around as much of the leftist rubbish spewed forth by this body as we possibly can, and we'll continue to do so.

It happens with almost everything, get used to it.

Oh, we have.

It is trying to address a very real problem in today's world and, whilst it isn't the most proactive way to combat it, atleast they're trying. Any nations who DON'T want to do this...well..I'd have to say THEY'RE not honourable.

We fail to see a problem. We don't really want to do this, so you're questioning our national honour? Normally, we'd respond by parking our Death (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=142) Star (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=172) over your nation until you apologised, but we're not going to bother with your tiny little speck of a nation. A single nuke -- maybe two -- should be enough to deal with your population of 18 million. When their faces start melting off, you'll know why.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

Thank you for your response I always like responding to posts like this that feature huge blocks of text and long rambling sentences detailing the socio-economic political and economic histories of RL nations like china japan and russia by responding in kind. I was wondering since i wonder about a lot of things if you would mind explaining how this is relevant to the discussion at hand since it doesn't seem to me to have any relevance at all but I don't know maybe that's just me because sometimes I have songs going through my head like I do right now and I get sort of distracted. These days I may not be so happy after all, after all that I have gained I still feel sad when I'm all alone I may have felt that path? I may not be so swift after all all the chances you have given me I just let you go I guess I've been like this before Sometimes I can't stand up and be a man but God why would I lose it now when I need my strength at hand? You know sometimes I can be real cool! All the words just seem to flow right along but when that girl approaches me well it all goes wrong.....Sorry, lost my train of thought there.

OOC: Best response to a rambling post ever! :D

And since I'm the ghost of Adam Smith, my economics wang is bigger than the rest of you combined. Enough with the degree-wanking people. It's irrelevent and nobody cares.

Still OOC: But is it bigger than Bob Flibble's genetic jackhammer? :p

This law is blatent socialism! Independant state governments have the right to choose their own labour laws, esecially when they have been elected by their own people. If you are socialist and approve of this law, then you can enact it within your own country. We at the ACCEL are unanamously voting against this law and encourage all those who value their sovereignty to do the same.

This law is blatent socialism! Independant state governments have the right to choose their own labour laws, esecially when they have been elected by their own people. If you are socialist and approve of this law, then you can enact it within your own country. We at the ACCEL are unanamously voting against this law and encourage all those who value their sovereignty to do the same.

Somehow, I don't think it's as unanimous as you believe...

This law is blatent socialism!

If only it were...

Actually, no. If it were outright socialist, it would have no chance of getting through.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

This law is blatent socialism! Independant state governments have the right to choose their own labour laws, esecially when they have been elected by their own people. If you are socialist and approve of this law, then you can enact it within your own country. We at the ACCEL are unanamously voting against this law and encourage all those who value their sovereignty to do the same.

Did anyone at ACCEL bother reading the resolution all the way through? It sounds like the representative of Roussellia, for one, never got as far as Article VIII.

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

Norderia has placed its votes in favor of this Resolution.

I'm glad to see it is doing well thus far.


Tommo the Stout
Busy in the office
Ambassador

We at the ACCEL are unanamously voting against this law and encourage all those who value their sovereignty to do the same.
Hi, I'm Gruenberg. Here are two things:
1. I have voted for this resolution;
2. I'm about to be elected Secretary of Trade and National Sovereignty of ACCEL.

You can leave now.

but and where there are 6,7 dependents and only 1 worker? What's the solution?Orphanage?

*Mr. Ólafsson turnes his head and smiles*
You have your duel Sir! My second will be Lord Laxness II von Steierburg. Choose your weapon Sir.
*Beeing a bit of a violent man Ambassador Ólafsson gets a bit carried away*
Cry havoc let slip the dogs of war!
*He then settles down and with great humility*
I must ask: Are we to be duelling according to continental traditions?


My Lord, as is customary on these occaisions, I have been sent to make the arrangements for the duel between Mr Olafsson and Comrade Dzerzhinsky. Might I suggest that the duel take place tomorrow morning at dawn, at the Field of Honour (25th floor, the corridor next to the S'barros in the food court). Suggested style is to be as follows:

The insulted party and the defending party must stand forty paces away from each other, and move one pace each towards each other as I count. When either of the participants believe that he is within range of the other, he may shoot. However, if he shoots and misses, the other gentleman will have the opportunity to fire at his foe from the same distance. If he misses, then we seconds replace the two gentlemen and try again.
I shall now attempt to aquisition a pair of duelling pistols. Just one moment...

Able Seaman Miller?

Bugger off

Able Seaman Miller, I have a job for you

I don't care for your f**king job, Sir

It involves violence...

Oh, well, in that case, I'd be 'appy too, sir

Excellent. Go to General Blatherstocks office and get hold of his duelling pistols, would you?

Aye, aye, sir

*Able Seaman Miller goes into General Blatherstocks office, and following some rather painful sounding noises, emerges, carrying a set of duelling pistols. Lying on the ground in the office is a Pot Noodle clenching military officer*

There ya' go, sir

Good work, Miller.

*turns to Lord von Steierburg*

Are these pistols, and the arrangements, satisfactory?

Sorry you feel that way Gruenberg. I was under the impression that ACCEL was making a movement to vote against this resolution. Regardless, all of us at the Capitalist Wing are voting against this resolution and so will many others who believe in the free market.

PS: I have read the resolution and realize that it is only advisory, however I think that this should be an economic matter of the individual state without UN advice and that this has the potential to become a slippery slope situation.

Sorry you feel that way Gruenberg. I was under the impression that ACCEL was making a movement to vote against this resolution. Regardless, all of us at the Capitalist Wing are voting against this resolution and so will many others who believe in the free market.
Just as many of those who believe in both the free market and reading will be voting for it. So shut up.

PS: I have read the resolution and realize that it is only advisory, however I think that this should be an economic matter of the individual state without UN advice and that this has the potential to become a slippery slope situation.
Given it specifically makes wages a national right, that's exactly what it can't do.

Are these pistols, and the arrangements, satisfactory?
As for myself, I find them satisfactory, yes. I appreciate your standing as my second on such short notice, Cyril.

This law is blatent socialism! Independant state governments have the right to choose their own labour laws, esecially when they have been elected by their own people. If you are socialist and approve of this law, then you can enact it within your own country. We at the ACCEL are unanamously voting against this law and encourage all those who value their sovereignty to do the same.That's funny; I'm also a member of ACCEL and I'm strongly for this.

Sorry you feel that way Gruenberg. I was under the impression that ACCEL was making a movement to vote against this resolution. Regardless, all of us at the Capitalist Wing are voting against this resolution and so will many others who believe in the free market.

PS: I have read the resolution and realize that it is only advisory, however I think that this should be an economic matter of the individual state without UN advice and that this has the potential to become a slippery slope situation.

We're finding this more and more difficult to believe. Did you or any of your colleagues in the Capitalist Wing read as far as Article VIII? Do you have even the faintest understanding of what it does? Perhaps you could get one of the ACCEL members who understands it to explain it to you. It throws sand on your imaginary slippery slope.

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

Well, I dont know about a "capitalist wing" but I do know this... as of the current moment the votes are 5482 for, 3764 against. Im quite pleased to see that it looks like this mesure will be passed.

However I encourage every UN member to vote for this proposal.

Are these pistols, and the arrangements, satisfactory?
The Management of the UN Building finds these arrangements completely unsatisfactory. We will not allow this type of activity to occur anywhere inside the UN Building.

Patrick O'Neil
Head of the Maintence of Order Department
UN Building Management

The Management of the UN Building finds these arrangements completely unsatisfactory. We will not allow this type of activity to occur anywhere inside the UN Building.

Patrick O'Neil
Head of the Maintence of Order Department
UN Building Management

Where were you when the Cluich's were having a veritable beheading fest in the GA!?

There were heads being lopped off left and right, it was like a zombie infestation during which the survivors were completely ignorant of the rules for zombie infestations!





Sorry...

Dropped out of primary school, didn't you?

I do hope you're not calling the intelligence of the proposal's author into question. Though he and I are often on opposite sides of debates, there is no question as to his intelligence. Yours, however...yikes.



I would ask that the delegate from Cluichstan refrain from personal criticisms of other delegates. It not only degrades you, but also shows this establishment in a bad light.

There was no point to your arguement other than to win a point against the Delegate from Manic Spinsters, and make their nation seem less important that your own. This is not the case. Manic Spinsters has one vote in the UN, as does your nation.

As for the proposal, if you don't like it, make your concerns known, instead of bullying less populous nations.

Everyone Vote FOR this proposal, for reasons that I have previously addressed in my earlier posts.

Dr Cornelius Adro,
Delegate of Pessimists Annonymous,
Delegate of Etlotorba.

Where were you when the Cluich's were having a veritable beheading fest in the GA!?

There were heads being lopped off left and right, it was like a zombie infestation during which the survivors were completely ignorant of the rules for zombie infestations!A. We weren't aware that one beheading carried out by one person constituted a "beheading fest."

B. We didn't hear about it until after it had happened, and since mucking about with time travel tends to have all sorts of unexpected results, there was nothing we could do to prevent it.

C. We hate hippies, in fact we'd like to apologize to Doctor Leary for blocking his attempts of Sheik Larebil's life on several occasions, if we had realized that he was your target, we wouldn't have stopped you. Hell we probably would have helped you.

Sorry...Yes, yes you are. What's your point?

Patrick O'Neil
Head of the Maintence of Order Department
UN Building Management

I had not expected to enter this debate, as the manifest common-sense of the proposal seemed to me to require no elaboration. This is still my view, and my nation's.

However, another matter has come to my attention.

Though I have long since given up the practice of duelling (being past my student days and now realising that the exuberant use of magic in such activities is a crass and adolescent form of showing-off){and I speak here as the champion of my year for every term of my undergraduate career} ... uh ... (shuffles notes) ... ah, yes: surely the proper practice is for the challenged to choose the weapons?

Mr Olafsson may possibly prefer the deadly artistry of the rapier.

Not, of course, that a peaceful, even pacifist, nation such as Ardchoille would wish to encourage such wanton waste of time and talent ...

*turns to His Exellency Sir Cyril Gordon Muffplaster Radionov Casaba O'Mahoney Askalan DeDerrier von Holsterman Wyznyjytski Ungern-Sturmberg Banerjee Svenssen M'Beki Vicenzo MacLehose-Strangways-Jones III, KCRC LOG of Cobdenia.*

I wonder, Sir Cyril, if you have ever noticed what a fine, even, well-tended, large, private lawn there is at the back of Finnegan's Wake, a superb tavern (easily accessible by all forms of transport) in our capital, Ardrigh?
_________________

Dicey Reilly, Co-President of Ardchoille.

*The silent man dressed in a tweed suit and that rarely takes part in the UN squabbles rises and walks over to His Exellency Sir Cyril Gordon Muffplaster Radionov Casaba O'Mahoney Askalan DeDerrier von Holsterman Wyznyjytski Ungern-Sturmberg Banerjee Svenssen M'Beki Vicenzo MacLehose-Strangways-Jones III, KCRC LOG of Cobdenia*
It was actually Mr. Ólafsson that was asked to duel so it is he who is the offended, correctly stated by Dicey Reilly, Co-President of Ardchoille.

Yet we find the terms offered acceptable. Pistols are a fine choice.

Lord Laxness II von Steierburg

C. We hate hippies, in fact we'd like to apologize to Doctor Leary for blocking his attempts of Sheik Larebil's life on several occasions, if we had realized that he was your target, we wouldn't have stopped you. Hell we probably would have helped you.Apology accepted. And that explains why my death traps kept being disarmed.

Ah well.


Doctor Denis Leary
Ambassador to the UN
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious Hack

Cluichstan, I had an opinion. I gave it.

I believe that whilst this proposal is a good idea, international law cannot be enforced and the proposal only encourages nations to follow it. Some nations may not wish to follow. Perhaps, some nations may choose to follow some aspects of this, and leave others and if thats the case, thats fine. Each nation has their own choices to make.

Manic Spinsters has voted FOR this proposal and, if it is successful, will implement it ASAP.

I implore all UN members to vote against this resolution. It is the responsibility of each individual nation to decide if there should be a minimum wage, not the bureaucrats at the UN.

Vic
President Elect for Life
Republic of Bubabalu

The Management of the UN Building finds these arrangements completely unsatisfactory. We will not allow this type of activity to occur anywhere inside the UN Building.

Patrick O'Neil
Head of the Maintence of Order Department
UN Building Management
In light of this unsavoury development, the crass interference of the nekulturny Mr. O'Neil, I suggest that the duel take place in the car park outside the main diplomatic entrance.

I am against this resolution. I need most of my funds being directed at military funding. I need to protect my nation and people. I can't do this if I'm paying them "fair wages and compensation", and I believe my people understand this. As far as I'm concerned the UN needs to stay out of the finicial realm of nations, and let each nation decide it's own monetary fate.

Great Warmancer General,
:mp5: Keeluur von Termeenatuur:mp5:

"Just as many of those who believe in both the free market and reading will be voting for it. So shut up."

Look Gruenberg, I'm not trying to make this personal, so calm down. Secondly we don't see this as a recomendation of free market capitalism whereas you do - that's all. A free market in our view is free of government intervention in such affairs and this recomendation does not make sense to us. I would think that an important member of ACCEL such as yourself would realize that people can have different opinions without being told to simply "leave now" just because they disagree on one issue - that's not how you run an organization.
But what would I know? I'm just one of the multitudes of lowly members in your glorious bureaucratic shadow...

The Hegemony of Asiatic States applauds Roussellia.

But on a more serious note, we can find no wrong with this proposed resolution. Blockers are not inherently bad and can always be repealed later if the resolution is found to be not in line with a future, more homogeneous mixture of nations that can have a 'one-size-fits-all' legislation applied to them.

As such, the Hegemony of Asiatic States respectfully votes 'aye', noting that while it would like the U.N. to have more power (in effect making the U.N. a 'world country' and the member nations as states of it), economics is one area of government where a general piece of legislation would not work at this moment.

Respectfully yours,
Talon Karrde
Hegemon of the Asiatic States and Representative to the U.N.

It is my opinion that the resolution will only serve as more clutter within the UN.

A resolution which only "encourages" countries to support the fair wage is nice, but not very effective...

In light of this unsavoury development, the crass interference of the nekulturny Mr. O'Neil, I suggest that the duel take place in the car park outside the main diplomatic entrance.

An excellent idea!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must get dressed in my ceremonial diplomatic uniform and prepare the area

It is my opinion that the resolution will only serve as more clutter within the UN.

A resolution which only "encourages" countries to support the fair wage is nice, but not very effective...
If you're bald it'll give you hair. If you got straight trousers it'll give you flares.

An excellent idea!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must get dressed in my ceremonial diplomatic uniform and prepare the area
I will proceed to the foyer of the diplomatic entrance and await you there.

This "Fair Wage" bill underminds Capitalism! You're killing competition!! VOTE THIS DOWN!

This "Fair Wage" bill underminds Capitalism! You're killing competition!! VOTE THIS DOWN!

Oh... go back and read a few of the earlier comments for goodness' sake.

How profoundly ironic that a proposal supported by capitalists who have actually thought it through is being torn down by accusations of anti-capitalism...


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

How profoundly ironic that a proposal supported by capitalists who have actually thought it through is being torn down by accusations of anti-capitalism...

Nah. Capitalism is like communism, fascism, etc. A poorly defined word, that means something different to every speaker. Too much propaganda have turned them from useful terms, to identifiers for political parties.

I will proceed to the foyer of the diplomatic entrance and await you there.

You do realise that if you get yourselves killed the resultant remorseful outbursts will make the Defenestration of Prague look like a kiddies' jumping-castle?

I don't know about anybody else but does this Resolution do anything?

As I can not yet understand the action this Resolution alegedly takes I shall vote my 75 Endorsements against it.

Mikeswill

I don't know about anybody else but does this Resolution do anything?

As I can not yet understand the action this Resolution alegedly takes I shall vote my 75 Endorsements against it.

Mikeswill

Well yes and no. It doesn't enforce anything merely states that countries can do what they want, however there currently isn't any legislation on minimum wages so any tom, dick or harry can come along and propose any old laws and you could end up following someone elses views on how you should run your country. This is essentially a blocker and ensures that you get to run your country the way you want to. So feel free to vote against it if you plan on submitting a different proposal that forces the rest of the UN to follow your idea's on minimum wage laws.

I don't know about anybody else but does this Resolution do anything?
I suggest you read the Resolution again. Better still, read it again and then read this thread from the start. I'm not going to go into yet another explanation of what the Resolution does and doesn't do for everyone that comes in here saying "it doesn't do anything".

To simplify things, here are a couple of links for your perusal:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11972182&postcount=12
http://z10.invisionfree.com/IDU/index.php?showtopic=1010&view=findpost&p=1695476

It is my Humble opinion that a UN Resolution should actually amount to something rather than fill empty words within this contrived Assembly of Wisdom. I believe that it is the Author's responsibbility to produce Resolutions with Merit. In the mean time the Soveriegnty of my Nation need not be hampered by ill-writen egoistic altruism. Nor is it my Nation's responsibility to write a better Resolution. However, as a member of this Esteemed Assembly it is my Responsibility to vocalize my opposition to such legislation.

The Mikes Hope Essence of Mikeswill
Delegate
NattionStates Region

PS Nor do I need to go to another thread to figure out what it does or does not do. I believe that a Resolution should be written well enough to get its meaning across in one read.

Kisses

The UN ambassador of Havvy, Dr. Sizofren wakes up to see what the big deal is in the UN debate room. He asks the gnomes that take care of recording the events what happened, and upon doing so immediately opened all windows.

Then, he called the closest store that had foam (and lots of it) to send 20,000 square feet of it and lay it around the UN building as many times as possible.

After they were done, he than jumped out of a window saying Wheeee!

About fifteen minutes Dr. Sizofren comes back in and tells the UN assembly that the nation of Havvy agrees with the resolution for no apparent reason and than jumps out the window again. He moved a ways a way from the landing spot, and decided to sleep on the foam until the next bid debate came.

read my post, and you'll see what I think of your capitalist crap.

It is my Humble opinion that a UN Resolution should actually amount to something rather than fill empty words within this contrived Assembly of Wisdom.
You know, you'll come closer to getting polite responses in this "contrived Assembly of Wisdom" if you start off with something other than "this doesn't do anything", then follow that with snide remarks about "empty words", "Merit" and "ill-writen egoistic altruism". Notice: what follows will not be a debate, it will be me telling you (and your 75 Endorsements) to piss off.
I believe that it is the Author's responsibbility to produce Resolutions with Merit. In the mean time the Soveriegnty of my Nation need not be hampered by ill-writen egoistic altruism.
Have you noticed that Article VIII in fact protects the sovereignty of your nation? Piss off.
Nor is it my Nation's responsibility to write a better Resolution.
Damn, I was just about to suggest that you do that too. Instead, piss off.
However, as a member of this Esteemed Assembly it is my Responsibility to vocalize my opposition to such legislation.
Noted. Piss off.

PS Nor do I need to go to another thread to figure out what it does or does not do.
Was it not you yourself who stated "As I can not yet understand the action this Resolution alegedly takes"? I thought that by providing those links it might help you to better understand what the resolution does and why it is written the way it is. Since you can't be bothered to read the links provided, piss off.
I believe that a Resolution should be written well enough to get its meaning across in one read.
Others have read it and understood it quite well, thus you fail at reading comprehension. Piss off.

Kisses
I like my sugar with coffee and cream.

This "Fair Wage" bill underminds Capitalism! You're killing competition!! VOTE THIS DOWN!

Our Nation does not understand the involvement in this political forum of the "-ism" words.

Surely we accept the need of these words as easy categorizations of political attitudes for internal state use: they indeed help Governments and Parties to direct their human resources towards wanted actions (and easily describe these actions).
However an international forum is supposed to function strictly on the basis of Reason and Policies-in every other case, the forum will just become one more field of road mass politics.
If this Resolution is contradicting given policies of your Government, vote and campaign against it. But please without the internal consumption cliches.;)

The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

The UN ambassador of Havvy, Dr. Sizofren wakes up to see what the big deal is in the UN debate room. He asks the gnomes that take care of recording the events what happened, and upon doing so immediately opened all windows.

Then, he called the closest store that had foam (and lots of it) to send 20,000 square feet of it and lay it around the UN building as many times as possible.

After they were done, he than jumped out of a window saying Wheeee!

About fifteen minutes Dr. Sizofren comes back in and tells the UN assembly that the nation of Havvy agrees with the resolution for no apparent reason and than jumps out the window again. He moved a ways a way from the landing spot, and decided to sleep on the foam until the next bid debate came.


Our Nation admires Dr. Sizofren and the Nation that he represents...

Considering the whole thread...

...they are the last reasonable standing.
After this annoucement, our whole Representation follows your example, votes FOR and jumps out of the window.
We express our diferences in political orientation by shouting "Jeronimoooo" (instead of "Wheeee..").

Best Regards
The Republic of Gerontas
UN Representation

(HEY!!! Who cleaned the foam??...Ouch!)

people! get in your senses! voting for different payments corresponding to work???? you know what I say? :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:
what if people can't work enough for a pay of an average life! don't you think we should let them get at least enough money to live mid-class??? I say all people should be paid equally, just live mid-class. the whole country to be mid-class. no rich, no poor. all workers must work as hard as they can, but the more skilled ones, they can work just enough to earn that money. Don't you think having basic needs is more important than leisure!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

people! get in your senses! voting for different payments corresponding to work???? you know what I say? :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:
what if people can't work enough for a pay of an average life! don't you think we should let them get at least enough money to live mid-class??? I say all people should be paid equally, just live mid-class. the whole country to be mid-class. no rich, no poor. all workers must work as hard as they can, but the more skilled ones, they can work just enough to earn that money. Don't you think having basic needs is more important than leisure!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Most UN countries have strong enough economies to meet the basic needs of their constituency. When individual citizens don't have their needs met, it can be for any number of reasons, but it isn't usually because the average workers pay is too low.

Many countries fail to ensure that the basic needs are met of their mentally ill, or elderly. Many countries allow specific subcultures to be victimized. Many depend on a great number of immigrant workers, who don't have the legal status necessary to get things like basic health care. Many countries are involved in some level of civil war.

My point is that basic economic policy decisions, like those affected by this proposal, won't ensure everyone's basic needs are met. It takes a variety of systems, throughout a culture, to do that.

(HEY!!! Who cleaned the foam??...Ouch!)
You've got to admire the efficiency of the UN Building's janitorial staff.:D

Timothy Schmidt
Bob Flibble's PA

*Sir Cyril walks out of the main diplomatic entrance, in full ceremonial uniform and bicorn, holding a wooden box in front of him*

Right, Mr Olafssen, if you would be so kind as to choose your pistol. I have loaded them both

You've got to admire the efficiency of the UN Building's janitorial staff.:D

Timothy Schmidt
Bob Flibble's PA


Yes you do, indeed sometimes they are too effiecent...hince why I don't allow the cleaning gnomes into my office....but then again whats a secretary for eh?;)

The resolution UN Fair Wage Convention was passed 7,419 votes to 5,024, and implemented in all UN member nations.
Now that that's done, I have a list of representatives who require defenestration. Note that this list is entirely arbitrary and there may be others who were overlooked.

The list is as follows:
Domnonia
The Tetrad
Excruciatia
Doujin
Ponkaquogue
Fraietta40
Arpeggiator
Otaku Stratus
Nebansox
Daverana
Pythagorians
Muendel
Roussellia
Bubabalu
Warplanet
Il Onnipotente
Mikeswill
Fahadia

Would any of my colleagues care to assist me in this task? We have much work to do, let's get started.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Defenestration-prague-1618.jpg

*Sir Cyril walks out of the main diplomatic entrance, in full ceremonial uniform and bicorn, holding a wooden box in front of him*

Right, Mr Olafssen, if you would be so kind as to choose your pistol. I have loaded them both
*Mr. Olafsson was just in time, he had spent a lot of time looking in his closet for the Aquilonus Gloria traditional battle dress*
http://www.gdargaud.net/Climbing/Tibet/GhengisMichele.jpg
Thank you Sir.
*Mr. Olafsson reaches for the ivory-handeled pistol, completely disregarding the obsidian-handeled one*
Tell me Sir Cyril, how many rounds are there in the pistol? Surely just one won't be enough?

*Felix selects the obsidian-handeled pistol and finds it to his liking*

This weapon will do nicely.

OOC: We could say that they are revolvers with 6 shots. That way we don't have to RP the re-loading. Wait to see what Cobdenia says.

The list is as follows:
Domnonia
The Tetrad
Excruciatia
Doujin
Ponkaquogue
Fraietta40
Arpeggiator
Otaku Stratus
Nebansox
Daverana
Pythagorians
Muendel
Roussellia
Bubabalu
Warplanet
Il Onnipotente
Mikeswill
FahadiaDibs on Mikeswill.

Congrats, Iron Felix/Yelda.

An ultimatum? *laughs*

My dear sir, there are no legal means available to you... other trying to find and exploit loopholes in the text itself. Your government will be brought into automatic compliance the moment this law passes.

I'm also curious to know what you think this proposal actually does.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

In a nation of laws, good sir, there are always means to correct injustice. We will now, as stated in the ultimatum, take all measure to tax the poor and reduces social obligations for the wealthy. The bulk of the income tax will now fall on poor. This will be done until such time as this thieving resolution is repealed.

*throws the representative from Pythagorians out the window*


*notices that he landed on foam padding that "someone" has placed around the building*


*glares at Havvy*

In a nation of laws, good sir, there are always means to correct injustice. We will now, as stated in the ultimatum, take all measure to tax the poor and reduces social obligations for the wealthy. The bulk of the income tax will now fall on poor. This will be done until such time as this thieving resolution is repealed.

I've just been informed that, as the massive exodus from your nation continues, the first economic refugees from Pythagorians have arrived in Ariddia.


*throws the representative from Pythagorians out the window*


*applauds*

Jolly good throw! Oh, and congratulations.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich bursts into the hall.

Where were you when the Cluich's were having a veritable beheading fest in the GA!?

There were heads being lopped off left and right, it was like a zombie infestation during which the survivors were completely ignorant of the rules for zombie infestations!

One head. Just that fucking hippie Larebil. As if anyone misses him.

I would ask that the delegate from Cluichstan refrain from personal criticisms of other delegates. It not only degrades you, but also shows this establishment in a bad light.

Piss off.

There was no point to your arguement other than to win a point against the Delegate from Manic Spinsters, and make their nation seem less important that your own.

Actually, there was a point. You fail at reading comprehension.

Oh, and piss off.

This is not the case. Manic Spinsters has one vote in the UN, as does your nation.

Actually, it is the case. The nation in question is an insignificant speck, whose representative has poked his head in here not even a half dozen times.

Oh, and piss off.

As for the proposal, if you don't like it, make your concerns known, instead of bullying less populous nations.

Bullying is what we do best. Get used to it.

Oh, and piss off.

read my post, and you'll see what I think of your capitalist crap.

people! get in your senses! voting for different payments corresponding to work???? you know what I say? :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:
what if people can't work enough for a pay of an average life! don't you think we should let them get at least enough money to live mid-class??? I say all people should be paid equally, just live mid-class. the whole country to be mid-class. no rich, no poor. all workers must work as hard as they can, but the more skilled ones, they can work just enough to earn that money. Don't you think having basic needs is more important than leisure!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Now that that's done, I have a list of representatives who require defenestration. Note that this list is entirely arbitrary and there may be others who were overlooked.

The list is as follows:
Domnonia
The Tetrad
Excruciatia
Doujin
Ponkaquogue
Fraietta40
Arpeggiator
Otaku Stratus
Nebansox
Daverana
Pythagorians
Muendel
Roussellia
Bubabalu
Warplanet
Il Onnipotente
Mikeswill
Fahadia

Would any of my colleagues care to assist me in this task? We have much work to do, let's get started.



Hell, I've got two arms...

Sheik Nadnerb scoops up the representatives of Fahadia and Etlotorba in his arms and chucks them through the nearest window.

Ah, that was refreshing!

Oh, sorry, only got one from the list. The other was a freebie.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

*Felix selects the obsidian-handeled pistol and finds it to his liking*

This weapon will do nicely.

OOC: We could say that they are revolvers with 6 shots. That way we don't have to RP the re-loading. Wait to see what Cobdenia says.

OoC: Sure, it makes life easier

IC: Right, gentlemen, to your positions!

*Felix walks to a spot exactly forty paces away from Mr. Ólafsson*

I am ready.

*Mr. Olafsson walks to his place*
GIVE IT TO ME! HAHAHAHAHAHaaaaaa...!

Ambassador Ahlmann trudges over to the representative of Roussellia, grabs him by belt and collar, lifts him over her head, and heaves him toward the window. A resounding thud is heard as he slams into the wall beside the window.

"Oops! Sorry 'bout that," Ahlmann chortles. "Guess I musta missed."

She picks him up again. Doesn't "miss" this time.

Lori trudges back to her seat, grinning broadly. "First fun I've ever had in this damn place."

*Oskar runs into the room at full tilt, skidding to a halt somewhere in the vicinity of his desk.*

Sorry I'm late. Congrats on the win, Felix. I heard there were window-tossings going on? Groovy.

*Spear tackles the representative of Ponkaquogue, lofts them over his shoulder and drop kicks them through a nearby pane.*

Don't really know what they did, I just can't stand having to read that nation name.

Must run, though. I'm planning a few things for next week and need to hammer out some details. ta

Pendankr jumps up and shouts.

"Thank the gods, it's over!"

Running over to the Excruciatian delegation's table, who he has not been able to hear since the firing of the IGNORE cannons, he grabs the itinerant represetative and hurls him straight up into the air, catching him on the way down, and passing him American-football style to Pazirbashan Umdiroplach, waiting by an open window. (He was special ops, you know.)

Umdiroplach handily grabs the flying ambassador by the seat of his pants, twirls around, and propels him out the window like a missile.

Pendankr raises his arms in triumph.

And all was well with the world.

Jevo Telovar walks toward one of the intransigent delegates and presses a button. The unfortunate victim is meticulously disassembled at the molecular level before being painstakingly reconstructed just meters away, on the other side of the window. Then gravity takes over.

"The advantage is that the window need not be opened or broken," he says nonchalantly.

The unfortunate victim is meticulously disassembled at the molecular level before being painstakingly reconstructed just meters away, on the other side of the window. Then gravity takes over.
Nice.

Dr. Sizofren wakes up and looks around. He noticed that his foam is working, and that one person seems to be missing an arm probably due to a freak mistake in molecule destruction and reconstruction.

The doctor goes back to the UN floor only to see Iron Felix is staring in the General direction of Havvy of which he is the delegate for. He picks him up and throws him out of the window for no apparent reason.

Than he goes to the room and jumps. While falling, he says congrats on getting the measure passssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssed. Wake me up when the next resolution hits quorum.

Dr. Sizofren wakes up and looks around. He noticed that his foam is working, and that one person seems to be missing an arm probably due to a freak mistake in molecule destruction and reconstruction.

Ach, laddie, will ye quit throwing foam all around the building? Yer' only on the first floor, a fall from that height ain't gonna kill ye.

Willie
UN Building Groundskeeper

OOC: Oh, it's Iron Felix, get it right or he'll defenestrate you from the top floor of the building.

The doctor goes back to the UN floor only to see Iron Feliz is staring in the General direction of Havvy of which he is the delegate for. He picks him up and throws him out of the window for no apparent reason.
*watches as "Iron Feliz" is thrown out the window*

It seems that the defenestrations are going well.

*returns to his spot forty paces away from Mr. Ólafsson in the car park outside the main diplomatic entrance*

It appears that both I and my foe are ready. Sir Cyril, you may begin the count.

Oh the power of edit works very well.

*Throws foam at random Janitors*

Oh the power of edit works very well.

*Throws foam at random Janitors*
OOC: Ah, but it's too late, I've already quoted you. Better luck next time.
:D

*Khernynko watches the chaos unfold, while he takes a bump of snuff--after it dies down a bit*

Ladies and Genlemen, Let the record reflect that I congratulate Comrade Felix on the passage of The Resolution. And further, Let those who need to be tossed out of the window be so tossed.

Dr. Sizofren wakes up and looks around. He noticed that his foam is working, and that one person seems to be missing an arm probably due to a freak mistake in molecule destruction and reconstruction.

A hologram of Serph Dekker appears for little apparent reason, except to survey the supposed "malfunction". When it turns out that the victim had not, in fact, lost an arm as visually (and telepathically) reported by a certain Dr. Sizofren, he tries to toss the doctor out a window. Too bad holograms lack substance.

Than he goes to the room and jumps. While falling, he says congrats on getting the measure passssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssed. Wake me up when the next resolution hits quorum.

Holographic Serph giggles (holographically) as the doctor appears to miss the protective foam by mere millimeters. Now that's ironic, don't you think?

Now that that's done, I have a list of representatives who require defenestration. Note that this list is entirely arbitrary and there may be others who were overlooked.

The list is as follows:
.....
Excruciatia
........


To borrow a line or 3 from a good friend of the Beloved President for Life of the Democratic Republic of Excruciatia...

"The hate is swelling in you now. Take your window. Open it. I am unarmed. Throw me through it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." :D



Pendankr jumps up and shouts.

"Thank the gods, it's over!"

Running over to the Excruciatian delegation's table, who he has not been able to hear since the firing of the IGNORE cannons, he grabs the itinerant represetative and hurls him straight up into the air......

.....and other impossible stuff ;)

"Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. "


I love it, deep down they really all want to be psychotic dictatorships after all :D There is hope for the place yet :D

Holographic Serph giggles (holographically) as the doctor appears to miss the protective foam by mere millimeters. Now that's ironic, don't you think?It's like raaaaaaaaaaain ... on your wedding day! ...

Well done Yelda.

Well done for it passed.

Is the defenestration safe and fun, then, may I be included in the defenstration list?

Well done for it passed.

Is the defenestration safe and fun, then, may I be included in the defenstration list?

Defenestration usually results in the death of the defenestratee.

It depends which theory you accept in regards to the placement of the GA in the UN building: either the 1st or the 9th.

*watches as "Iron Feliz" is thrown out the window*

It seems that the defenestrations are going well.

*returns to his spot forty paces away from Mr. Ólafsson in the car park outside the main diplomatic entrance*

It appears that both I and my foe are ready. Sir Cyril, you may begin the count.

Excellent, everyone is in position. Ready...

One....Two...Three...Four...Five...Six...

Defenestration usually results in the death of the defenestratee.

Always, even in virtual worlds or movies?

de·fen·es·tra·tion Pronunciation (d-fn-strshn)
n.
An act of throwing someone or something out of a window.

from:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=Defenestration

Excellent, everyone is in position. Ready...

One....Two...Three...Four...Five...Six...

*At the count of six, Felix stops, aims and fires..........*





*.....missing his foe completely and instead blowing out the back glass of the Kennyite limousine. Moments later, the face of Manuelo Fernanda (along with two younger, female faces) appears in the window and says: "I say! Felix old chap, have you taken leave of your senses? I implore you you to cease this reckless behaviour at once!"*¹

*Felix observes what he has done, shouts "don't worry. we will pay for it", and waits for his foe to return fire*


¹That, of course is not what Manuelo Fernanda said. I was using artistic licence to try to stay in the mood of the whole "dueling thing". What he in fact said was: "Felix! Have you lost your fucking mind? Stop that shit!"

I've just been informed that, as the massive exodus from your nation continues, the first economic refugees from Pythagorians have arrived in Ariddia.


These are, of course, erroneous accounts. All the 20,000 "refugees" who fled were misinformed hard-core communists who could not stand what they called "injustice". A misnomer really since those who have least to contribute are getting exactly what they deserve in our society. Just because we are outnumbered by nations of thieves, doesn't mean we will surrender. We will what the adults do best to petulant children as of now we will simply ignore you and let you destory your own economies while developing ours. DO NOT expect mercy when you are starving in the streets. DO NOT think that you will outfight us by developing weapons better than ours. Our production comes out of ingeniouty and love of life. Your comes from necessity and boredom. We SHALL overcome. We will perservere. You will only live as an example of lack of wisdom in the distant lessons for the posterity.


*applauds*

Jolly good throw! Oh, and congratulations.


Laugh you laugh of the wild animals. We shall remain the best of humans.
As you no doubt will try to dismiss us as arrogant, we will remind that arrogance is only wrong when misplace. Pride in one's true accomplishment is one of the driving forces of civilization.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

"Popcorn, Dicey?"

"For shame, Bast! Lives are at stake here! This isn't an entertainment!"

"Caramel popcorn."

"Oh. Thanks."

"So, who's your money on?"

"Felix. Proven form."

Congrats on the reso passing Felix. I would have been here to say that sooner, but the fact it's raining reps outside is making getting to the main door a dangerous business.

I do wish you lot would shout 'fore' or something before you defenestrate someone. Had the representative from somesmallplaceiveneverheardof only miss me by a micrometre.

Panyer
The Preservers
Witchcliff representative to the UN

Always, even in virtual worlds or movies?

de·fen·es·tra·tion Pronunciation (d-fn-strshn)
n.
An act of throwing someone or something out of a window.

from:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=Defenestration

A lot depends on how the defenestratee lands. I was once thrown out a window when my ex-secretary's husband found out about our activities. Luckily, I have a very hard head.

Well done for it passed.

Is the defenestration safe and fun, then, may I be included in the defenstration list?

General Blorck trudges over and taps the representative of Love and esterel on the shoulder.

"The hell with the list. You want defenestrated? No sweat."

He picks up the representative with one hand and flings him out the window. Some of the other members watch with interest. Blackie Blorck used to be a baseball pitcher, and is one of the very few people who can throw a curve person.

Kingsley was arriving back at the UN building after leaving for a short hop to a message therapist after a hard day of debating about capital punishment. His helicopter driver decided to fly low, just for the fun of it. He sees the flying LAE ambassador and swerves to the left to avoid him (her?). Much to his surprise, the ambassador suddenly curves towards him and breaks through the glass at the front of the helicopter, just in front of Kingsley.

"Um...hi," he says, quite a bit more ruffled than when he left.

His helicopter driver decided to fly low, just for the fun of it. He sees the flying LAE ambassador and swerves to the left to avoid him (her?).
It's a he, Pazu-Lenny Kasigi-Nero. I trust he wasn't injured severely?

All the 20,000 "refugees" who fled were misinformed hard-core communists who could not stand what they called "injustice".

You have implemented measures "to tax the poor and reduce social obligations for the wealthy. The bulk of the income tax will now fall on poor."

I hardly call that "justice" in any shape or form.



A misnomer really since those who have least to contribute are getting exactly what they deserve in our society.

You mean those who work hard are being denied the means to live, while rich parasites exploiting them are being given a free ride. No wonder your hard-working citizens are fleeing your country in droves.


as of now we will simply ignore you and let you destory your own economies while developing ours. DO NOT expect mercy when you are starving in the streets.

*stares incredulously*

You know nothing about our society, do you? Please, do continue making a fool of yourself.


DO NOT think that you will outfight us by developing weapons better than ours.

*laughs out loud*

You DO want to make yourself look foolish! We are a peaceful country. Our armed forces (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Military_of_Ariddia) are for defence purposes only, and our military technology is... adequate, no more. We have never had any intention of becoming a military power. We'll leave you floundering in your paranoid delusions.


Our production comes out of ingeniouty and love of life. Your comes from necessity and boredom.

*tries to stop laughing*

You're making my sides ache... You're really determined to paint yourself as an ignorant fool, aren't you? Don't go around spouting empty nonsense until you've bothered finding out a little about the societies you criticise. We are the epitomy of production out of ingenuity and love of life. Whereas your mercilessly exploited workers toil under the dreadful, meaningless burden of dire necessity and relentless boredom. You crush any ingenuity and love of life they may once have had.

They will have a far better, happier, more meaningful life in Ariddia, free to develop their potential and creativity without fearing the misery and starvation you impose upon them.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

<stuff>I hope you don't think he speaks for all capitalist nations. And I hope you understand that when I call you a "filthy commie", it's only because it's part of my contract.

And because you're a bunch of filthy commies.


-Doctor Denis Leary
stuff

Yes, we do realise that not all oppressi- erm, not all capitalist nations are that disgustingly stereotypical. We view the government of Pythagorians as extremists rather than as typical of capitalist member nations.

Even if they are all oppressive capitalists...


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

You have implemented measures "to tax the poor and reduce social obligations for the wealthy. The bulk of the income tax will now fall on poor."

I hardly call that "justice" in any shape or form.





You mean those who work hard are being denied the means to live, while rich parasites exploiting them are being given a free ride. No wonder your hard-working citizens are fleeing your country in droves.



*stares incredulously*

You know nothing about our society, do you? Please, do continue making a fool of yourself.



*laughs out loud*

You DO want to make yourself look foolish! We are a peaceful country. Our armed forces (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Military_of_Ariddia) are for defence purposes only, and our military technology is... adequate, no more. We have never had any intention of becoming a military power. We'll leave you floundering in your paranoid delusions.



*tries to stop laughing*

You're making my sides ache... You're really determined to paint yourself as an ignorant fool, aren't you? Don't go around spouting empty nonsense until you've bothered finding out a little about the societies you criticise. We are the epitomy of production out of ingenuity and love of life. Whereas your mercilessly exploited workers toil under the dreadful, meaningless burden of dire necessity and relentless boredom. You crush any ingenuity and love of life they may once have had.

They will have a far better, happier, more meaningful life in Ariddia, free to develop their potential and creativity without fearing the misery and starvation you impose upon them.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Your economy has imploded. The creativity of your workers is amply expressed by 14-year-old boys selling lemonade on the streets. Our economy is leading industry is information technology. We outrank you in civil rights, all economic indicators, and political freedoms.

We insist on your usage of the word "justice" as a misnomer. Justice is getting what you one deserves. You seem to confuse "getting what one deserves" with "getting what one needs". Working hard for something doesn't make one deserve it. Working hard does not make one contribute a great deal to society. One could, for instance, hit their head against the wall very, very hard. Noone would gain much from it, so the society would not benefit. It is those who use their ingenuity to compete with their neighbors by providing better products that improve society. And they deserve far more compensation than those who simply blindly follow their orders. We understand that. You do not. Enjoy the lemonade.

General Blorck trudges over and taps the representative of Love and esterel on the shoulder.

"The hell with the list. You want defenestrated? No sweat."

He picks up the representative with one hand and flings him out the window. Some of the other members watch with interest. Blackie Blorck used to be a baseball pitcher, and is one of the very few people who can throw a curve person.

Kingsley was arriving back at the UN building after leaving for a short hop to a message therapist after a hard day of debating about capital punishment. His helicopter driver decided to fly low, just for the fun of it. He sees the flying LAE ambassador and swerves to the left to avoid him (her?). Much to his surprise, the ambassador suddenly curves towards him and breaks through the glass at the front of the helicopter, just in front of Kingsley.

"Um...hi," he says, quite a bit more ruffled than when he left.

An anonymous amateur photographer took a picture few seconds before the diplomatic incident
http://test256.free.fr/defenestration.jpg
You can notice on this picture that LAE ambassador didn't get time to take off his rollerblade before Blackie Blorck defenestrated him.

Also it's important to notice that Blackie Blorck get a world record, as another Ausserland diplomate performed 18 home run in a row, before the LAE ambassador crashed in Ceorana official helicopter

Best. Collaborative. Defenestration. Evah!

<SNIP>

Before you make a further fool of yourself, you may want to find out (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Ariddian_economy) a little about our economy.

Indeed, justice is receiving what one needs. Unlike you, we are not inhumane enough to deny our people what they need to survive.

Our people work and contribute to society, freely expressing their talent, skill and creativity, leading happy, meaningful and fulfilling lives, bettering themselves and society, while your people live in abject misery, struggling to survive, helpless and hopeless, exhausted and exploited, unable to even think of improving society in any way.

When even capitalists view your system as a perverse caricature of capitalism, perhaps it's time to start wondering where you've gone wrong.

In the meantime, our people will continue to enjoy their lives, thankful that they were born in (or moved to) a civilised country, and we will welcome those fleeing the crushing oppression you inflict upon your own people.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Blather. Meaningless statwank.
OOC: I fail to see how you think you "outrank" Ariddia in the area of civil rights. If you want to play that game though, I could bring in my main nation (with a Frightening economy), followed by a parade of puppets all armed with piles of stats from thirdgeek and NSTracker and we'll compare notes. It's silly.

IC: *shouts up at the GA*

"Would someone please throw this fool out the window? He has been defenestrated once by me but seems to have recovered. I would do it myself, but I'm busy dueling".

Dr. Sizofren wakes up to notice he has broken his leg. He limps to the foam, and burns all of it. Unfortunately, he also burned all of the UN Ambassadors that are lying dazed on it. Than, he limps back inside the UN building, and looks at the Pythagorian Ambassador with an evil look.

He goes over to a little red button next to the ambassador, and presses it. The ambassador also demoluculizes and this time is remoluculized 50 years in the past, right over a shark tank.

Than he throws Iron Feliz out of the window 'again'! and says "Nobody shall have a name so close to Iron Felix!"

Than he presses the red button next to him, and gets remoluculized back to his country. While demoluclizing, he says, "See you next reso..." (Get's cut off)

*Watches as several ambassadors, the seats of their pants afire, run past and jump into a nearby fountain.*


OOC: You know, I think all this thread is lacking now is a car chase.

The door of the GA seems to explode, and Jorge Trenbakke flies in, riding on what could only be compared to a Go-Kart. He is being pursued at high speeds by a bubble-gum ice cream delivery vehicle, also known as a semi truck. Desks fly everywhere, and delegates run for cover. The Go-Kart and the truck exit the GA at the other side, right through the floor-to-ceiling window.

A lawyer walks in. "Mr. Thomas, your office is responsible for this, and must pay for the broken door, the broken window, the broken desks, and the emotional damage to the delegates."

Kingsley climbs out from behind the desk. "No, sir. I fired Jorge five seconds before he broke the door. What you have is a private citizen who decided to crash through the General Assembly."

OOC: Well, you asked for it.:p

Amidst a billowing cloud of tire smoke and the squall of rubber, there appears from out of nowhere a black 1977 Camaro Type LT. It is piloted by a gangly individual, his long flowing mullet fluttering in the breeze. The Camaro rounds a corner (completely sideways. Bitchin'!), entering the parking area for the ambassadorial limo's, narrowly missing the dueling party assembled there. Barely audible over the ROAR of Led Zeppelin's Communication Breakdown pouring forth from the car's stereo, the driver, Mickey Special, can be heard saying:"Yeah! Hell yeah!"

There are two police cruisers from UN Security in hot pursuit¹.



¹ OOC: Does UN Security fall under UN Building Mgmt or is that a seperate entity?