NationStates Jolt Archive

Cardinal Augustus Brown looked around the room and proceded with his item for discussion

"I want this conference to help settle a long running problem. How does the Catholic Church regard followers of Islam who live by the Koran and not the Holy Bible. Our nation is founded on tolerance of the ancient and current religions of the childen of Abraham namely Christianity, Judism and Islam. While many on our nation would like to impose a stricter version of Catholism, we cannot ignore the 75% of our population who do not want to be converted. Furthermore, our neighbours is Islamic and we cannot fight all of them by ourselves. As the only Crusader State to survive from the 12 century, we cannot afford to look like Imperialists now. Many of you have a low or non-existent Moslem population, and banning Islam is not a real problem so conservative views can be enforced. In our case, we are an island in a sea of heresy."

and then sat down.

"If you can choose between either maintaining this stable situation, or let things escalate into a situation in which you will surely experience a lot of problems, the choice seems obvious. I think that you god-given task is to prove your determination and faith by maintaining and providing for your flock, even though it is surrounded by those of other schools of faith. Surely, sustaining yourself under such a situation is an admirable thing before the eyes of God. I would consider it a test. A test of faith. A test to see if you and your flock will keep their faith, even when surrounded by those who do not share their faith."

Vorn spoke. "What about the christians to the land of the north. I wouldn't say your completely surrounded by nonbelivers but still keepign the statius quo is indeed imporant in your case."

Is it too late for the MSRA to send its most famous archbishop?

Absolutely, please send him.Excellent. My involvement in the RP begins now.

Archbishop Charles Kirkpatrick, who presides over the very populous Eastern region of Automastan, stepped onto the Church's private jet at Herald-Castoria International Airport, eagerly anticipating the events in which he would be involved while in Pantocratoria. Although he had only just received the invitation to attend, and the conference was already underway, he did not expect his latecoming to adversely affect his participation.

He was already excited at the prospect of going to the conference. He thought to himself, "I wonder what pressing issues we will discuss? I simply must find out what has already transpired when I land." He also had a mandate to speak with Cardinal Conomos in private concerning so important issues.

"I can scarcely believe it," Archbishop Kirkpatrick thought as he took his seat. "In a mere eight hours, I will be in Pantocratoria!" He was beside himself with glee.

Says Gabarelli, "We should not be content with the status quo in the Crusader State and neighboring Muslim nations. We must pool our resources to convert (peacefully, mind you) as many heathens in the Middle East as possible. This can be done by setting up more missionary schools and hospitals, training more missionaries, and aggressively spreading the Gospel into Muslim communities."

"We have a large Muslim minority in Tanah Burung," Mangunvijaya says. "Our church carries out charitable works among these people and maintains a strong inter-faith dialogue with the Islamic community. We do not preach conversion, but we accept converts gladly and with open hearts and open arms. We believe good works and good example are the best way to convert those of other faiths. That, and mutual respect. But we are the majority, so things are perhpas easier for us than for Jeruselem."

"My esteemed collegue has a good point. We also follow the way of charity, good deeds and every other thing we can do to set an example. We believe that the more we do that, the more people will realize that the Catholic Faith is the ultimate and only religion. Spreading the faith with violence, will only drive people away from us. Surely, a benevolent God is much more convincing than a violent one."

"Violence shouldn't be employed to convert Mahommedans to Catholicism, certainly." agrees Cardinal Duras. "If only because it has proved so ineffective in the past. Likewise, the various times Protestants have attempted to convert Catholics through the denial of essential charity, especially in Ireland during the Great Famine, has proven that withholding charity from the needy just because they're of another faith will not succeed in getting the needy to convert, it will only result in feelings of resentment. Let us be a shining beacon to the pagan, so that he can see through our good works what he should aspire to be."

Cardinal Brown replied

"Using violence to convert Moslems and Jews as well as other Christian offshoots does not work. The Crusades were a major failure with that respect and did not result in a long term success. I agree we should convert via more convert and subtle means as violence simply provides another reason to hate Catholism."

"I don't mean to sidetrack the council, but the Crusades weren't intended to convert anyone, they were intended to recapture the holy lands which the forces of Islam had conquered from my ancestors, the Roman Emperors of Constantinople..." quips the Emperor.

Vorn spoke. "Not all the crusades were aimed recovering the holy land, there was crusades in spain to recover formally christian lands and expel the muslim moors. There were other crusades as well in Europe and Teritora itselve had crusade in 1252, the same time they were trying to recapture Jeruselem. But yes there was only one crusade aimed at conversion and that was in the Baltic region. the rest were aimed at recovering christian lands, puting down Heretics in france and in Teritora's case puting down a violant antichristian government that had seized power in Teritora and was slaughtering christians and jews."

"We do admit the history of our nation is not exactly exemplary and the conduct of our ancestors has not been truly Christian despite our successes. The Middle East has never been a stable place and further Christian-Islamic conflict is undesirable ...

Maybe we should acknowledge the inalienable right for Jews and Moslems to practise their religion as long they do the same for Catholism."

"A very sensible suggestion," Mangunvijaya says. "Religious tolerance among the peoples of the book -- and even among Christians and Buddhists and other such faiths -- seems the only way to go.

"But this all raises another issue. Frankly, the problem isn't so much getting along with Jews and Muslims, who after all worship God. It is the multitude of instant cults and the diabolical worship of living people that is blasphemous, and all too widespread in the world. We tolerate these faiths, but a more aggressive misisonary strategy seems called for. There is a grain of truth in Islam which is absent from the obscene faith of those who worship the Queen of Menelmacar, for instance."

"Let's be realistic, a more aggressive missionary strategy by the Church would result only in aggression from the Queen of Menelmacar against all Catholic peoples." says Cardinal Conomos.

"Your Grace," says Cardinal Conomos, turning to Mangunvijaya. "If I may turn the conversation a little... tell me, does the Church in Tanah Burung still extend the sacrament of holy matrimony to homosexual couples? That is something which, given the current climate, I believe this council should address."

"I will be happy to discuss that matter now, if the chair will permit a digression from the topic under discussion?" Mangunvijaya looks toward the Emperor questioningly.

"Oh, and as an aside, i've failed to make myself cledar. I certainly don't suggest sending missionaries to Menelmacar. I meant that when dealing with cults in my country, we pursue a more aggressive missionary strategy than we do with the adherent of world religions like Islam. We should tolerate and pursue inter-faith dialogues with Muslims. But i think an interfaith dialogue with the people who worship the Queen of M is pointless. Muslims worship God, so we can talk with them. Sirithilists worship a living being, which is blasphemous."

As soon as "Queen of Menelmacar " was mentioned, Cardinal Russell Crowe looked unhappy.

"Unless anybody would like to propose a vote on the issue of other religions, the chair sees no reason why the discussion need stay on the original topic." says the Emperor, looking around.

"I think we can move on, your Excellence."

"In that case, Your Grace, could you answer my question?" asks Cardinal Conomos. "Do you still extend the holy sacrament of marriage to homosexual couples?"

Double post ...

Cardinal Brown sudden had a weird image of a standing in church full of people except all couples were gay and of the same sex. He shook it out of this head and thought "That was a nightmare!".

"In that case, Your Grace, could you answer my question?" asks Cardinal Conomos. "Do you still extend the holy sacrament of marriage to homosexual couples?"

"The simple answer is yes," Mangunvijaya answers. "If that is objectionable to the assembled company, we are prepared to leave the council if that is the wish of others, or i can remain to discuss this matter further."

(Background to this, if you're interested, is at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73063)

"The simple answer is yes," Mangunvijaya answers. "If that is objectionable to the assembled company, we are prepared to leave the council if that is the wish of others, or i can remain to discuss this matter further."

(Background to this, if you're interested, is at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73063)

"Well," Cardinal Walsh speaks up for the first time this day, "I, for one, would ask you to remain in the Council, your Grace. I would like to hear from you, first, how you reconcile your church's practice on the matter with the teachings of scripture and the Church. Secondly, I would like to know how you envision your communion with Rome in light of this, shall we say, discrepancy in teachings. Do you urge the Church as a whole to change its teachings or do you have something else in mind?"

"Absolutely, you should remain as part of this council." says Cardinal Conomos. He gestures to the marble tablet on which the Nicene Creed is inscribed. "You are our venerable brother in the episcopate. More importantly, the people in your flock are Catholics, or at least they believe in the Catholic faith. You simply must remain here, for their sake."

"And the reason you must remain here is that it is the job of this council to clarify what the Catholic faith is." continues Conomos. "And it cannot be denied, the extension of the sacrament of marriage to homosexual couples is anathema to the Catholic faith!"

"If Tanah Burung's government wishes to make gay unions legal, it is a secular government, and while we frown upon such decisions, it is your government's place to make them, and we do not deny that." says Conomos. "But for you, a Bishop, a man of God, and for the rest of the Church in Tanah Burung to extend the Catholic sacrament of marriage to these unions is unacceptable."

"I've read the arguments in your exchanges with my predecessor of blessed memory, Cardinal Duras, when he issued the Pantocratorian Council of the Church's excommunication of the Church in Tanah Burung to you." says Conomos. "I'm familiar with your defence."

"Boswell's work about homosexual marriages in the early Church is either poorly researched or intentionally misleading. He has read an awful lot into the ancient Greek rites of a ceremony which simply acknowledges two men, unrelated by blood, as brothers in the eyes of God, as if they were full blood-brothers." says Conomos. "His assertion that the early Church therefore accepted homosexual marriage is either an intentional or hopelessly naive and modern misrepresentation of these ancient rites."

"Your assertion that we have misinterpreted the passage from Corinthians about homosexual activity has some merit from the stand-point of Biblical scholarship. But the Church has a Common Version of the Bible - the Vulgate. And the Vulgate therefore is the translation which forms the basis for the Catholic faith, as determined by the infallible ecumenical councils of the past." Conomos continues.

"As for God being a God of Love, and that the most important thing of all is that all Catholics love God, you are of course, correct." Conomos says. "But those afflicted with the homosexual condition are called to chastity by God. Homosexual Catholics who love God should abstain from sexual relations, since that is what God has asked of them. These are the findings of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Given that these people must abstain from sexual relations, they are incapable of true conjugal love, which is the joyous love for another person which the sacrament of marriage is meant to recognise."

"I have the highest admiration for those homosexual people who, despite their condition, rise above temptation and abstain from sexual relations. The Church cannot and must not blame these people for a disorder with which, for all we know, they might be born. But the Church must tell these people that they are called to chastity. It cannot condone activity which is sinful, as it says in the Scriptures, and as has been confirmed by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and it certainly cannot go against the Catechisms and extend a sacrament to those who are incapable of receiving it." says Conomos, maintaining the same calm and even tone he has maintained throughout.

"If I may ask, how does Your Grace reconcile what I have said with the practice of extending the sacrament of marriage to homosexual couples?" asks Conomos, turning to Bishop Mangunvijaya.

(ooc: my log-in time is extremely limited until the weekend, so i can't give the sort of in-depth replies to individual points i'd like right now. Also, the TB Catholic Church has been out of touch with the Vatican for quite some time and knows nothing of this Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, there being no Cardinal Ratzinger in my timelines. So i'm not going to accept Vatican pronouncements as necessarily binding simply because they are binding in RL. However, in all matters other than sexual morality, you'll find Mangunvijaya to be fairly theologically orthodox.)

Mangunvijaya bows to Conomos. "Well, I thank you for your words, my brother in Christ. As you say, what the government does with its marriage law is up to the government; the issue we discuss now is the sacrament. The bishops of my country convened in council and agreed that no form of human sexuality is sinful; all forms of sexuality are a gift from God. The sacraments are available to all people: we will not exclude, as we beleive that is what Christ would have done.

"I well know this is a minority view here, but the Catholic faith encompasses diversity. The expressions of faith common in one country are often frowned upon in others: the question is whether these diversities can be accepted or whether they go beyond the pale. We suggest a pragmatic view is a more useful one at a council designed to foster church unity. Just as the Pope has accepted the fact that some eastern rite churches allow married priests, this council may wish to accept the actions of the church in Tanah Burung. Or it may not; that is up to the assembled company."

We wish to enter this debate about the legality and morality of homosexuality marriages. Our local church is firmly opposed as well most of our constituents including non-Catholics. We fear extreme backlash if we approve the legality of homosexual marriages in Jeruselem. There is no public gays rights movement in Jeruselem because Christian leaders, Jewish leaders and Arab clerics are very conservative about this issue.

Thank you.

Archbishop Vorn. This would fly even worse in Teritora, intil ten years about, homosexuality got one put to death.

(ooc: my log-in time is extremely limited until the weekend, so i can't give the sort of in-depth replies to individual points i'd like right now. Also, the TB Catholic Church has been out of touch with the Vatican for quite some time and knows nothing of this Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, there being no Cardinal Ratzinger in my timelines. So i'm not going to accept Vatican pronouncements as necessarily binding simply because they are binding in RL. However, in all matters other than sexual morality, you'll find Mangunvijaya to be fairly theologically orthodox.)

OOC: You can't just ignore the RL Vatican NOW and still profess to be faithful Catholics- you'll end up in schism and I'll RP as such.
IC:

Mangunvijaya bows to Conomos. "Well, I thank you for your words, my brother in Christ. As you say, what the government does with its marriage law is up to the government; the issue we discuss now is the sacrament. The bishops of my country convened in council and agreed that no form of human sexuality is sinful; all forms of sexuality are a gift from God. The sacraments are available to all people: we will not exclude, as we beleive that is what Christ would have done.

Cardinal Theophilius gets up. "All forms of sexuality a gift from God? Pardon me, your excellency, but does that include pederasty, also known as pedophilia? What about beastiality, or other numerous perversions known in the world? How can you ignore three-thousand or more years of constant Judeo-Christian teaching regarding homosexuality?"

"I well know this is a minority view here, but the Catholic faith encompasses diversity. The expressions of faith common in one country are often frowned upon in others: the question is whether these diversities can be accepted or whether they go beyond the pale. We suggest a pragmatic view is a more useful one at a council designed to foster church unity. Just as the Pope has accepted the fact that some eastern rite churches allow married priests, this council may wish to accept the actions of the church in Tanah Burung. Or it may not; that is up to the assembled company."

"You make the error of conflating discipline and doctrine, Your Excellency. Priestly celibacy is a discipline; it may be altered without changing the essence of the Catholic faith. The Church's teachings regarding homosexuality, however, are doctrine; they have been revealed by God and cannot be altered. Need I remind you that the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New, condemns same-sex sexual relations?"

Cardinal Theophilius then gives Mangunvijaya several articles from L'Osservatore Romano: Homosexuality In the Old Testament (http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo3.htm), Homosexuality and the New Testament (http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo4.htm), Sexuality and Friendship in Early Christianity (http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo5.htm), and Homosexuality in the context of Christian anthropology (http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo1.htm).

The Cardinal then sits down.

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

Archbishop Dornsi spoke. "The only time a person should have sexual conduct is with ones wife, anything else is immoral."

Cardinal Russell Crowe spoke "Syskeyia has expressed our opinion and arguments. We will not persecute homosexuals, but our consersatism is well known".

"Now that Your Grace has had a chance to digest the materials Cardinal Theophilius has given you a chance to review, tell me, my venerable brother, do you maintain your previous view?" asks Conomos, curiously.

Whew, a lot to reply to!

I would like to know how you envision your communion with Rome in light of this, shall we say, discrepancy in teachings. Do you urge the Church as a whole to change its teachings or do you have something else in mind?"

"We wish communions with as many Catholics as possibly, but we demand nothing," Mangunvijaya says. "The decision we have taken on the nature of the sacraments applies only to our church. We make no recommendations to any other national churches. We envision our communion with Rome and with the rest of you here to be along the lines of the Eastern rite churches, which have different teachings on some doctrinal matters from the Vatican but remain associated with the Roman Catholic church. That is to say, we are Catholic but not necessarily Roman.

"Like the Ukrainian Catholic and Armenian Catholic churches, we wish communion along with the right to maintain our own rules on the sacraments. Some eastern rite churches have a different sacrament of priesthood, admitting married priests. Some have a different sacrament of confirmation, combining it with baptism as a single sacrament. Some extend the sacrament of the Eucharist to unconfirmed children. All these are wrong according to the Roman Church, yet tolerated by Rome. These churches are allowed to call themselves Catholic and admitted into communion with Rome. They are not bound by the canon law or catechism of the Western church. That is all we ask for ourselves."

"Boswell's work about homosexual marriages in the early Church is either poorly researched or intentionally misleading. He has read an awful lot into the ancient Greek rites of a ceremony which simply acknowledges two men, unrelated by blood, as brothers in the eyes of God, as if they were full blood-brothers." says Conomos. "His assertion that the early Church therefore accepted homosexual marriage is either an intentional or hopelessly naive and modern misrepresentation of these ancient rites."

"Professor Boswell has identified that the church in early modern Europe did honour unions between men in a way that they do not do today. I find his research compelling, but even if you do not, he has demonstrated that the church did at one time perform a ceremony that it does not perform now. The case is thus proven that blessings have changed over time. It is false to claim that the sacrament of matrimony was always exactly what it is today. Even the church changes."

"If I may ask, how does Your Grace reconcile what I have said with the practice of extending the sacrament of marriage to homosexual couples?" asks Conomos, turning to Bishop Mangunvijaya.

"Simply enough. The decisions by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are, we believe, and I say this with sorrow in my heart, in error on this point. Our reading of the Bible is that it does not teach rejection of gay people. It does not teach chastity for gay people any more or any less than it does chastity for straight people. The church has made mistakes in its history: its shocking treatment of Jewish people, its role in the dispossession of indigenous people, its suppression of Galileo. All of these, the Pope has apologized for. You must at last concede the possibility that the church has made another mistake."

We wish to enter this debate about the legality and morality of homosexuality marriages. Our local church is firmly opposed as well most of our constituents including non-Catholics. We fear extreme backlash if we approve the legality of homosexual marriages in Jeruselem. There is no public gays rights movement in Jeruselem because Christian leaders, Jewish leaders and Arab clerics are very conservative about this issue.

"We do not ask you to approve homosexual marriage. We are not urging our views on anyone here."

OOC: You can't just ignore the RL Vatican NOW and still profess to be faithful Catholics- you'll end up in schism and I'll RP as such.

ooc: Since my first post on this topic i’ve said that the Vatican is not necessarily binding. I am not ignoring it, I am saying that a church that has had no contact with the Vatican for many years is not going to be RP’ed as 100% obedient to the Vatican. Also read my post on recognizing the Pope in this thread, which did so ONLY in the context of accepting the collegiality of bishops. Of course, you’re completely free to RP a schism, and all my posts have been open to that too: i’ve offered to be thrown out of this council at any time.

Cardinal Theophilius gets up. "All forms of sexuality a gift from God? Pardon me, your excellency, but does that include pederasty, also known as pedophilia? What about beastiality, or other numerous perversions known in the world? How can you ignore three-thousand or more years of constant Judeo-Christian teaching regarding homosexuality?"

"These are not forms of sexuality, they are forms of violence. The crucial element in a sexual relationship is consent. Two adults, male, female or in-between, can grant consent. Children and animals cannot."

"You make the error of conflating discipline and doctrine, Your Excellency. Priestly celibacy is a discipline; it may be altered without changing the essence of the Catholic faith. The Church's teachings regarding homosexuality, however, are doctrine; they have been revealed by God and cannot be altered. Need I remind you that the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New, condemns same-sex sexual relations?"

"Admission into the priesthood is a sacrament. Matrimony is a sacrament. If one can be altered, so can the other. I do not accept that the church’s teachings on homosexuality are handed down from God. They are human inventions. The Bible, as I have argued on many occasions, does not condemn homosexuality in the way some believe it does. But i have said all of this before. I will not convince you and you will not convince me. The only answer is that we must agree to disagree, and it is for you to decide whether you can accept communion with my church or not."

Is it too late to send a representative to this meeting?


http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VGOOjKCm6kIC:that_70s_grrl.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ashton_kutcher003.jpg
Prince Ryan uth Elood VI
The Principality of Mezoprincapala

Is it too late to send a representative to this meeting?


http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VGOOjKCm6kIC:that_70s_grrl.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ashton_kutcher003.jpg
Prince Ryan uth Elood VI
The Principality of Mezoprincapala

No, just jet your representative over. We welcome members to our council.

Cardinal Augustus Brown

Cardinal Perry Mohaim of the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church arrived to the Counsel without fanfare and quietly took his seat.

Cardinal Perry Mohaim of the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church arrived to the Counsel without fanfare and quietly took his seat.

Cardinal Russell Crowe discretely handed him some Latin document summarizing the last days decisions and events.

OOC
Yes, that's his name ...

Conomos nods to Perry Cardinal Mohaim in acknowledgment as he stands to speak again.

"Your Grace," he says, addressing Mangunivaya, "This council has affirmed the legitimacy and infallibility of Pope John Paul II. It cannot do that and also find that your position is a legitimate or tolerable one. In the case of Eastern Rite churches, it has been found that the sacramental differences between those churches on issues such as priestly celibacy are differences of discipline, not of doctrine. Doctrine cannot be altered, and must be shared between all churches claiming to be Catholic."

"Even if we grant that Your Grace cannot be expected to so quickly conform with the teachings of the Pope, with whose bishopric you've not been in communion for some time..." says Conomos. "Surely you cannot claim that this position is a new one? It goes back to the days of St Augustine and beyond."

"It seems clear that although Your Grace recites this creed," says Conomos, sadly indicating to the marble tablets in the centre of the Cathedral. "You cannot claim to hold the Catholic faith. Your position is quite intentionally schismatic, flying in the face of the findings of every conceivable authority."

"I beg Your Grace, leave homosexual unions to the business of the state. But do not sanctify them as Christian marriage!" pleads Conomos.

Mangunvijaya looks over to the tablet, reads it again. Nope, nothing about homosexuality there.

"I'm sorry, Your Grace," he replies. "I can ask my fellow bishops in Tanah Burung to consider what you've said, and I will do so. But i do not think we will waver from our course. If you cannot tolerate what we are doing, I am afraid communion between us will be impossible. This saddens me, but it may be the only possible outcome. I can think of no other possible compromise than what I have already said."

(ooc: in this case, the RL equivalent would be the Old Catholic Church, which split from Rome over Papal infallibility and has fairly pro-gay views. I can provide this church's apostolic succession if necessary. It runs through, funnily enough, The Bishop of Condom, among others. It is not in communion with Rome.)

Cardinal Perry Mohaim then spoke, "The Mezoprincapala Catholic Church split with Rome during the Great Schism when three different men claimed the title and powers of the Pope. Since then our Church has refused to even consider the corrupted system of Papal Elections conducted by Rome to be legitimate. John-Paul is not considered to be by the Mezoprincapala Chatolic Church to be the rightful Pope nor his predecessors leading to Martin V, the current "Pope-Apparent" of the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church is Pope-Apparent Ali VI. On the matter of gay marriage, the policy the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church uses is that special permission from one of the Cardinals or the Pope-Apparent must be given before the marriage can take place, the same with marriage annulments for any divorced couples."

Archbishop Vorn spoke. "Great scishmics, I wonder what sort of heresy has croped up in your lands. The Tordorans are so traditionalist their 11th century catholics and even Teritora the church looks like that of the 13th century and both of us and our churches hold John-Paul the II as the only true pope futher more this council has also recomformed that he is the true pope."

"The Desert Princapality will never accept that antipope, nor his corrupt predecessors!" Cardinal Perry replyed, "Ever since the Great Schism we have only accepted the one who ruled in Avignon and when he was declared Antipope by the corrupted Cardinals in Rome at that time our Church broke away to preserve the true Church of God, ever since we wait until a True Pope is elected."

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

"The only Antipopes were the ones who made a mockary of God in Rome and ever since they have only continued to mock God and His Holy Son!" Cardinal Perry snapped as he rose to his feet, his callous hands, toughened by the deserts of Mezoprincapala, tightened.

Archbishop Dorsni snarled his hand reaching for a mace that was not there, something he could see the Teritoran Archbishop do as well. "Judas Priest, this wasn't peaceful meeting I would have you dragged away by Inquisters and I am sure the Teritorans surely would have you arrested by their church knights."

"I am a representative sent by the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church to this meeting to see if the Church had changed, obviously it has not, it still lusts for blood and vengance rather than peace and reconciliation." Cardinal Perry said in a quiet but powerful voice as he sat down, "As part of my vows as a priest I will not partake of barbaric violence, do what you will, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost who sit in heaven will prove me right."

"Your Eminence," says Cardinal Conomos turning to Perry. "This council has already affirmed Pope John Paul II as the legitimate Pope. Therefore, if you cannot accept that finding, you do not hold the Catholic faith."

Conomos turns to Mangunvijaya.

"It saddens me too, Your Grace, to speak my mind on this issue. It strikes me that Your Grace does not practice the Catholic faith, but rather what I would term as supermarket Christianity. Your Grace picks and chooses the parts of the Christian religion you like, and ignores those parts which you do not. You ignore the passages in the scriptures which are contradictory to your position, you ignore the Catechisms of the Catholic Church, you ignore the findings of every authority on the doctrine of the Catholic faith, and simply make up your own faith and call it Catholic." says Conomos. "The universal authority on doctrine is Rome, and here in this council. Any church which ignores the doctrinal findings of that universal authority has no catholicity! Your Grace's supermarket Christianity is enormously dangerous to the cause of Christian unity - whereas before only ill-informed and naive individuals engaged in this process of picking and choosing what parts of the Catholic faith they'd accept, Your Grace has now done so for an entire church!"

"That is what makes this even more disturbing, that is why I simply cannot accept to agree to disagree. Your Grace's position is indefensible, but it isn't a personal one, and it isn't Your Grace's right to take it! Think of the people in your charge, Your Grace! If you maintain this line, if you seek excommunication, think of the innocents in your flock, because this madness would touch them also." Conomos says, shaking his head in distress. "This council can't turn its back on your people, and I dearly hope that you will not either!"

OOC: The "Old Catholic Church" has no apostolic succession or catholicity if it split from Rome and is not in communion with it.

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

OOC: The Tordoran branch has always held that the pope in Rome is the pope, they held that by abandaning Rome the Avignon popes they were no longer the bishops of rome therefore not the pope.

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

Flipping French! :wink:

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

OOC: The Tordoran branch has always held that the pope in Rome is the pope, they held that by abandaning Rome the Avignon popes they were no longer the bishops of rome therefore not the pope.

OOC: Erm... so how do you reconcile that the apostolic succession of the current Pope is traced back through the Popes in Avignon? The Popes who were in Rome at the time were the puppets of the Holy Roman Emperor!

"It saddens me too, Your Grace, to speak my mind on this issue. It strikes me that Your Grace does not practice the Catholic faith, but rather what I would term as supermarket Christianity. Your Grace picks and chooses the parts of the Christian religion you like, and ignores those parts which you do not. You ignore the passages in the scriptures which are contradictory to your position, you ignore the Catechisms of the Catholic Church, you ignore the findings of every authority on the doctrine of the Catholic faith, and simply make up your own faith and call it Catholic." says Conomos. "The universal authority on doctrine is Rome, and here in this council. Any church which ignores the doctrinal findings of that universal authority has no catholicity! Your Grace's supermarket Christianity is enormously dangerous to the cause of Christian unity - whereas before only ill-informed and naive individuals engaged in this process of picking and choosing what parts of the Catholic faith they'd accept, Your Grace has now done so for an entire church!"

"That is what makes this even more disturbing, that is why I simply cannot accept to agree to disagree. Your Grace's position is indefensible, but it isn't a personal one, and it isn't Your Grace's right to take it! Think of the people in your charge, Your Grace! If you maintain this line, if you seek excommunication, think of the innocents in your flock, because this madness would touch them also." Conomos says, shaking his head in distress. "This council can't turn its back on your people, and I dearly hope that you will not either!"

OOC: The "Old Catholic Church" has no apostolic succession or catholicity if it split from Rome and is not in communion with it.

"Then i shall depart, until such a time as the rest of the Church is able to be tolerant. I have not ignored scripture, i have attempted to show that scripture does not teach homosexuality is wrong. I do not ignore the findings of every authority, I simply disagree with the findings of some authorities. I have done nothing that is the will of the people in the pews in my country: the ones who follow the teachings of the Vatican Council: You are Church. I do not seek excommunication, but i accept it is what this council is likely to impose. So be it. We shall have to live in peace, but not in communion.

"Do you wish me to remain in silence, or depart at once?"

"Your Grace, I do not want you to do either." says Conomos in desperation. "But the fact is, you haven't shown that the scriptures do not teach that homosexuality is wrong, you are ignoring the findings of every authority on the subject, since every Church authority has always found against your position, and I fear you misrepresent your flock, although in fairness, far be it for me to say so, since you obviously know their minds better than I do."

"Furthermore, I fail to see how we are being intolerant in the slightest!" says Conomos. "I have affirmed my own admiration for those Christians afflicted with the homosexual condition who heed the call of celibacy. Mother Church, like God, loves all people. But we cannot love sin, and we cannot love heresy. We cannot approve of homosexual relations anymore than we can approve of theft or murder. We cannot approve of the practice of extending the sacrament of marriage to those who do not meet the criteria which that sacrament requires anymore than we can approve allowing human sacrifice to take the place of the Eucharist! If being unable to approve of such things makes the Church intolerant, then surely, all people are intolerant, because everybody will have one type of activity or another which they cannot condone. My motto on this and in all things is to love the sinner but hate the sin, and if love is intolerant, Your Grace, then I relish in being intolerant."

"I apologize for the word intolerant: i spoke in haste," Mangunvijaya says. "We have been back and forth on the scripture, and we will not convince one another. My primary point is that Christ said nothing for or against homosexuality. He called on us to love one another, and brought us a new law. The case for the Bible condemning homosexual practice rests two primary passages. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is about the lack of hospitality and not about homosexuality at all. The oft-quoted passage in Leviticus taken in isolation seesm damning, but Leviticus is full of fire and brimstone teachings, such as the strict laws against cutting the hair in front of your ears and its ban on mixed fibres which would make us forbidden to wear polyester. All church authorities tell us that Levitucus must be interpreted more generously, and then cling to one passage on men lying with men. I will not insuly your intelligence by attempting to argue that the Old Testament advocates homosexuality in the story of David and Jonathon, although there are authorites that would do so. The New Testament passages cited come from the letters of St. Paul, and I have already discussed the errors in translation with your predecessor.

"But this is futile. I will not convince you on this point. You will not convince me: full acceptance of homosexuality is the practice of my country, my flock, and it is my own belief. Everything else in the cafeteria i accept joyfully, but this oen thing i cannot accept. You ask me to change the way things have been in my country for centuries, and i cannot do it. I ask you to accept somethign that clearly goes against the very base of your faith, and you cannot do it. The argument is circular: why go on with it?"

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

OOC: The Tordoran branch has always held that the pope in Rome is the pope, they held that by abandaning Rome the Avignon popes they were no longer the bishops of rome therefore not the pope.

OOC: Erm... so how do you reconcile that the apostolic succession of the current Pope is traced back through the Popes in Avignon? The Popes who were in Rome at the time were the puppets of the Holy Roman Emperor!

OOC:If you recall at the council that ended the division, they forced all the popes to give up the title of pope that they held at the time and elected a new pope.

" The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is about the lack of hospitality and not about homosexuality at all."
"Nonsense! The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were all to willing to share their food, their homes, their beds- especially their beds!"
<Laughter>
"[Leviticus'] ban on mixed fibres which would make us forbidden to wear polyester."
"God hates polyester! Truly the Lord is a God of good taste!"
<more laughter>

"The New Testament passages cited come from the letters of St. Paul, and I have already discussed the errors in translation with your predecessor."

"Sorry for my flippancy; I shal now get serious. The 'mistranslations,' I believe, claim that St. Paul was condemning mere 'sexual perversion' instead of 'homosexual practices.' There is a significant difference- while homosexual activity is an objectively definitive term, while 'sexual perversion' is extremely relative- it can mean whatever the person want it to mean. Do you honestly think St. Paul would be so equivocal about so important an issue?"

"But this is futile. I will not convince you on this point. You will not convince me: full acceptance of homosexuality is the practice of my country, my flock, and it is my own belief. Everything else in the cafeteria i accept joyfully, but this oen thing i cannot accept. You ask me to change the way things have been in my country for centuries, and i cannot do it. I ask you to accept somethign that clearly goes against the very base of your faith, and you cannot do it. The argument is circular: why go on with it?"

"Very well, then. What ultimately happens to us is only known to God; and he has only revealed that the canonized Saints are surely in heaven. You condone a wretched, evil and unnatural practice; to be frank, Your Grace, the penis was meant to go into the vagina, not the anus. God created us man and woman, not andrygonous or single gender. If a vote arises in favori of condemning your sickening practices, I say, placeat."

In Christ,

+Theophilius Cardinal Sanghorn
Archbishop of Syskeyiapolis
Primate of Syskeyia

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

OOC: The Tordoran branch has always held that the pope in Rome is the pope, they held that by abandaning Rome the Avignon popes they were no longer the bishops of rome therefore not the pope.

OOC: Erm... so how do you reconcile that the apostolic succession of the current Pope is traced back through the Popes in Avignon? The Popes who were in Rome at the time were the puppets of the Holy Roman Emperor!

OOC:If you recall at the council that ended the division, they forced all the popes to give up the title of pope that they held at the time and elected a new pope.

OOC: Yes but they also found that the Avignon popes were the legitimate popes!

"Well, if Your Grace will side against every single Church authority on this subject, and can reconcile that, I do not see how my feeble words will be anymore convincing." Conomos concludes, and sits back down, dejected.

The Emperor looks on, seemingly a little bored.

"Shall we then move the discussion forward?" he suggests after a few moments of silence.

Archbishop Dornsi glared and rose to his feet. "You dare to concider the corrupt Puppet popes of Avignon, those vile antipopes to true popes."

OOC: You know that the Avignon Popes were the real ones, right?

OOC: The Tordoran branch has always held that the pope in Rome is the pope, they held that by abandaning Rome the Avignon popes they were no longer the bishops of rome therefore not the pope.

OOC: Erm... so how do you reconcile that the apostolic succession of the current Pope is traced back through the Popes in Avignon? The Popes who were in Rome at the time were the puppets of the Holy Roman Emperor!

OOC:If you recall at the council that ended the division, they forced all the popes to give up the title of pope that they held at the time and elected a new pope.

OOC: Here is the monkey wrench, the Church in Mezoprincapala would not accept Roman Pope Martin V and they believe that since the Pope Boniface shifted the capital to Avignon, the only way for a TRUE Pope to be elected is in the city of Avignon and sworn in that city, none have so no matter what John-Paul II will never be considered the Pope by the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church. Remeber they are ruled by "Pope-Apparents" until a True Pope is elected and sworn in in the city of Avignon.

"The only Pope that we will accept is one that is elected and sworn in the city of Avignon, the TRUE Capital of the Catholic Church, we did not accept the false pope Martin and we will not accept the false pope John-Paul either. Even our church is commanded by a Pope-Apparent until a True Pope is chosen." Cardinal Perry explained.

Archbishop Vorn spoke. "Peter was the frist Bishop of Rome, therefore only the bishop of rome can the Pope because the bishop of rome is the Heir of Peter, holder of the the key and furthermore no pope can truely pope with out being at St. Peter's where the center of the church where the center altar is directly over the grave of St. Peter. Which is why both the Tordoran and Teritoran Catholic churches only have always only reconized the Pope in Rome. Since the Avignon Popes were not the Bishops of Rome they could not and were not in the eyes of the either of our churches the true popes."

"However as the Pope is considered infallable, our Church views is that he has the authority to move the capital of the Church if he sees it fit. As we believe that the counsel in Rome betrayed the True Pope we will only accept a Pope sworn in the city of Avignon, the capital as declared by the last True Pope." Cardinal Perry explained the view of the Mezoprincapala Catholic Church in a calm voice.

"We already resolved the issue of the Pope as our first point of business!" protests the Emperor, banging his gavel. "Move the discussion along!"

Cardinal Brown looked around the room and spoke up

"I would like to address an pressing issue for our faith. Recent news has publicly exposed the scandalous behaviour of some of men of faith taking advantage of underaged children under their care. I would like to create a committee to find solutions to stop these sick people joining our Church as they taint the reputation of our Catholic Church and undermine our claims to be the true faith. Furthermore, we should no longer tolerate the discete protection of these criminals by our own officials and they should be punished instead. On our nation, automatic excommunication and even death in some extreme cases is the punishment."

Archbishop Dornsi spoke. "Thats is what remote monstaries are for."

Archbishop Vorn chuckled "Yes and in Teritora theres always the heart of dragon country, the Island of Tor Dotri, the heart of wyvern Territory or theres always the frigid mountiantop monstary of Dorenitoa."

OOC

Cardinal Brown was abused as a child and secretly wants peds to be nailed alive to torture racks.

His abuser was executed for treason against the crown after he pulled some strings with the Inquisition.

Cardinal Walsh cleared his throat, then spoke. "I agree with Cardinal Brown. We can no longer tolerate simply shuffling these priests off to out of the way parishes or even monasteries and simply hoping that they will not come into contact with minors." The Cardinal glances around the room.

"Just moments ago, we were engaged in a debate over consensual homosexuality. While I have no desire to reopen that debate, nor do I disagree with the consensus that scriptures and Church doctrine do not permit recognizing such relationships through the sacrament of holy matrimony, I do wish to point out that those who condemned such practices - which are carried out by consenting adults - should be as quick - if not quicker - to condemn this crime, which is neither consensual nor restricted to adults."

Walsh almost appears to shake with anger. For many, it may be the first time they've ever seen Walsh angry. "Finally, while I emotionally support the idea of immediate excommunication and execution for those priests guilty of abusing children, my logical mind tells me this is not the right moral or spiritual position for the Church. Instead, I would encourage the Church as a whole to do what we do in Excalbia - turn the accused priests over to the civil authorities for trial, with no legal support from the Church - we should not use offerings to defend such men in court! Then, if convicted, let them be removed from their priestly office."

Walsh steadies himself, then sips his water

"I agree with Cardinal Walsh, and draw the council's attention to what the Church has already begun to do to deal with this problem." says Conomos. "Obviously, the crime itself is in the domain of the civilian authorities, but too many of the perpetrators of this abuse have been shielded in the past by being moved about to other parishes, and so on. The Pope has already assigned the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to investigate and bring this practice of hiding offenders to an end."

"The Church's main culpability in these cases hinges on whether it shielded an abuser from civilian authority, or whether it turned the matter over to that authority. Each bishopric must make sure that it turns these matters over to the civil authorities each and every time." says Cardinal Conomos. "But I should add, it would not be the Church's place to investigate and punish these abusers itself. That would be an usurpation of the role of the state."

Cardinal Conomos bows to the Emperor, and sits back down. The Emperor nods, pleased.

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Archbishop Vorn spoke "But in Teritora, the crown expects the church to deal with criminal offenders within its own ranks. What then when the civil authority expects to the church to deal with the problem?"

Cardinal Perry was then convinced that the Church would never seek a real reconciliation with the Mezoprincapalaian Church, he took out a cellphone and dialed up his superior Bishop Tomas Mahamid and spoke in his native language Mezoishan, "Zeo Tomas, ze iy, Perry, U rezo yeeko, erp Roman Catzoa Izzu topua bebb frezzash ita uz. Erp Hischa tipe ve cuplata ut op rea op uzism Christian."

Translated: Hello Tomas, it's me, Perry, i have failed, the Roman Catholic Church will never reconcile with us. The Schism must be completed if we are to remain Christian."

Archbishop Vorn spoke "But in Teritora, the crown expects the church to deal with criminal offenders within its own ranks. What then when the civil authority expects to the church to deal with the problem?"

Cardinal Walsh nods in Archbishop Vorn's direction. "That is a problem. Let me ask then, how do the civil authorities expect the Church to punish to offenders within the Church? It has never been the Church's place to do so. As I recall, even during the days of the Inquisition, guilt was pronounced by the Church, but punishment was left to the state. In your situation, I would sugget that the Church remove the offending priests from the priesthood. Then, they should be outside the Church's jurisdiction and it should be up to the civil authorities to enforce the laws against this evil crime."

bump

Archbishop Vorn looked almost sheepish "Thats another thing that gets merky at times in Teritora, politics are surely to get involed and Teritoran Church and noblitily Politics tend to be conversed, complex and extremely hard to follow as well as often intertwining with each other. Thats why we ussally just send them to the most Isolated Dangerious monestaries to live at."

Walsh nods sympathetically towards Archbishop Vorn. "I can see that you are in a difficult position, your Grace. I do not wish to intrude unnecessarily in your country's domestic politics."

Then, with a slight bow, Walsh turns towards the Emperor. "Your Majesty, if I may, I propose that we take a vote to officially condemn the abuse of children by members of the clergy and to resolve that, wherever local laws permit," Walsh nods again towards Vorn, "those accused of such crimes be turned over immediately to the civil authorities for investigation, trial and punishment. In those rare cases, such as in Teritora, where civil laws place the burden for punishing these crimes on the Church, then the Church should prosecute the offenders and remove them from the priesthood."

The Emperor nods, and bangs his gavel.

"So ordered. The Council will vote on the issue described by Cardinal Walsh." he says.

Cardinal Conomos stands.

"Your Majesty, I vote in favour of His Eminence's proposal." he says.

"So noted." says the Emperor.

Archbishop Dornsi "In favor."

Cardinal Brown voted "In favour" although he wanted a more extreme punishment for peds, but Jeruselem laws would not be changed in a hurry.

"In favour!", Aegeri firmly stated.

(ooc: apologies if i'm being thick, but having been declared non-Catholic, do i still get a vote? If so, then it's another "yes.")

In favor.

In Christ,

Theophilius Cardinal Sangworn
Archbishop of Syskeyaipolis
Primate of Syskeyia

(ooc: apologies if i'm being thick, but having been declared non-Catholic, do i still get a vote? If so, then it's another "yes.")

OOC: You may as well. I would reason that churches would wait until after the council had concluded before making sure that they complied with its findings anyway. After the council has finished its deliberations, and released its resolutions, then the Church in Tanah Burung can officially decide "hmm... nope, we're not going to change the way we do things to bring them into line with the council. We're in schism." Until that time, you may as well keep on participating, IMO.

ooc: OK, that makes sense. Already voted, then.

Cardinal Walsh looks at the Emperor. "Your Majesty, if the votes are tallied, I should like to introduce another topic - a proposal for a permanent structure, a council if you will, to promote dialog and cooperation between the Church and other Christian churches that stand apart from the Universal Church yet which profess faith in Christ."

Oh dear Lord, Aegeri thought upon hearing the proposal, I wonder who will be the first to exclamate that the Catholic Church is the one true faith and that all other Christian churches are misled by Satan.

"That issue was already handled by the Second Vatican Council, Your Eminence." says the Emperor. "And obviously, the previous vote has passed."

"Actually, your Majesty," Cardinal Walsh said with a bow, "I was hoping to go beyond the Second Vatican Council. I have a vision of all Christian denominations coming together in a great council to resolve points of common faith and create a permanent structure for closer cooperation."

Cardinal Conomos stands.

"My predecessor's vision of Christian unity is a fantasy, Your Eminence." says Conomos. "This council has failed to resolve all but the smallest differences in opinion amongst churches which call themselves Catholic. Several have openly declared themselves in schism, and some have the obvious intent to do so the moment this council is over. If our own house is not yet in order, what hope would this council you propose have?"

OOC: Insert this into the timeline as appropriate. :)

After another day of discussions has concluded...

Cardinal Conomos approaches Bishop Mangunvijaya.

"Your Grace, walk with me a while..." Conomos says, indicating an arch to a passage beneath one of the stations of the cross in the Cathedral.

The two churchmen walk along the passage, which leads beneath the Cathedral floor, into an Imperial crypt, where most of the Emperors of the Pantocratorian Palaeologi dynasty are buried. The crypt is, even more than the rest of the Cathedral, extremely Byzantine in style. The writing on icons on the walls, and the names on the sarcophagi, is in medieval Greek.

"The long forgotten founding dynasty of Pantocratoria. These men all considered themselves the temporary inhabitants of this country, you know. They always dreamed of a return in glory to Constantinople." Conomos contemplates. "Don't worry, Your Grace, I do have a point."

He turns to his fellow episcopus.

"Let me be blunt, Your Grace. I hold a good deal of sway over the Cardinal Duras Memorial Fund (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79974). I know that Tanah Burung is hammering out a most worthy agreement between developing nations. To realise the changes envisioned by the draft proposal, Tanah Burung and the other future signatories would require funds." Conomos says. "Cardinal Duras dreamed of Christian unity, particularly unity between the Church in Tanah Burung and the Catholic Church as a whole. It seems fitting that perhaps the fund which bears his name could help achieve that goal... At the conclusion of this council, if you were to accept the council's findings, I will see that Tanah Burung gets whatever funds it needs to make that dream a reality."

Conomos stands silently, staring at Bishop Mangunvijaya across the tomb of Basileus Demetrius IV Palaeologus, whose bust depicts him as Constantine the Great, with the cross of the crusader across robes.

(ooc: nice wrinkle! your link needs fixing though.)

Mangunvijaya walks with Conomos, pleased at the chance for a private talk, wondering when the other shoe might drop. In the crypt, the feeling of silence and solemnity pervades. An ancient place, then, and not all show and pomp. Although drier and better-kept, it reminded him of the old tunnels below his own city of Burung-yang-membuat-dunia: the sense of a place at once old and outside of time. A place that humbled.

"You honour me by showing me this place, Your Grace. We have tunnels like this in BYMD, too," he says. "My city is old, built by the pre-Christian peoples -- that's why they named it: the Bird that Crteated the World. They took refuge there last from the European missionaries who brought the cross with flame and blood. And now BYMD is the centre of the Catholic faith in Tanah Burung, because in the end the missionaries abandoned the sword and took up the hoe and the book, and worked side by side with my ancestors, and became one with them."

[i]And that was development work, and that's what the good Cardinal is speaking of now. Interesting,[i] he thought. But an answer was called for.

"You are generous, and certainly i'm tempted," he replies, slowly, carefully, each word a step on delicate ground. "It's true, my government is hosting a developing nations summit that I hear has gone well and made some grand plans. Those plans are backed by some funds, of course, but i'm sure they would like more."

He pauses, thinks a moment more. "Your Grace, i will certainly take what this Council has decided back to the Bishops in my country. I know we will all give the closest attention to its decisions. But you cannot ask us to decide on matters of doctrine based on the promise of aid. Our decision will be based on how best we can serve God, not on Mammon. As will yours, I am certain."

Conomos nods. The two churchmen stroll down the dimly lit chamber, towards the sarcophagus labelled Basileus Demetrius I Palaeologus.

"Of course, Your Grace. When this council is over, take its findings back to your venerable brothers in Tanah Burung, discuss it amongst yourselves. You could even let each bishopric decide for itself, if you thought it best." says Conomos. "I'm sure my predecessor wouldn't have disapproved of my attempting to use the fund named after him as a carrot in his highest cause."

Conomos' eyes pass over the poorly rendered sarcophagus bust. Engraved in the stone are Greek words like "AUTOKRATOR ROMANOI", "ISOAPOSTOLOS", and a now familiar name which was virtually unknown when it was first chiselled into the stone - "PANTOKRATORIA". The poorly rendered figure in the stone clutches a gold case with a glass cover, inside of which is a tiny golden flake of something, not more than 1 inch by 1 inch. The case is new - it is removable, and there is damage on the sarcophagus which suggests it is relatively frequently removed and replaced. The case is engraved in French - the only words in Pantocratoria's "new" language in this ancient tomb. "Le morceau dernier de l'Icône de la Vierge, Nôtre Dame de Constantinople"

"These emperors are the direct descendents of the firmest supporters of the Orthodox Church of Constantinople, of schismatics. They came back, and brought a whole people with them. Admittedly, out of convenience. Still, they stayed." Conomos says quietly. "Lasting unions, even ecclesiastical ones, can be brought about for the strangest reasons."

He smiles at the sentiment.

Cardinal Conomos stands.

"My predecessor's vision of Christian unity is a fantasy, Your Eminence." says Conomos. "This council has failed to resolve all but the smallest differences in opinion amongst churches which call themselves Catholic. Several have openly declared themselves in schism, and some have the obvious intent to do so the moment this council is over. If our own house is not yet in order, what hope would this council you propose have?"

“Your Eminence,” Cardinal Walsh says rising, “to the contrary I believe that this council has succeeded in bringing many of us together on many issues. Perhaps, it was too much to expect that, in some cases, centuries of separation and differentiation could be overcome and complete unity achieved in one council. However, I think that this would be a worthy beginning. And a council calling together all Christians would build on this start. While this council, sadly, may see some churches walking away from unity with Rome, it does open a door to greater communion and cooperation with those churches and others.” Walsh clasps his hands as if in prayer.

“This is my vision, your Eminence: if those of us who call Christ Lord can come together and agree on a basic set of core beliefs – beginning perhaps with one of the ancient creeds – even most protestants recite and affirm the Apostle’s Creed – then we can build cooperation and build institutions to draw us closer together. Do I expect all schismatic Catholics to embrace such a council? No. But perhaps, some of them will. Do I expect the Protestants and the Orthodox churches to submit to the Pope and accept our beliefs on the sacraments? No. But perhaps, in small ways, we can be drawn closer together and, eventually, realize Cardinal Duras’ vision of Christian unity.”

“So, I respectfully repeat my call for a council of all Christians.”


(OOC: Catching up a bit, been short of time recently.)

"With respect, Your Eminence," Conomos stands to say again. "Orthodox bishops were invited to attend as well, since the Church views their bishoprics as once Catholic bishoprics now in schism, rather than as entirely new organisations. Unfortunately, none attended. One would expect that out of all places to host a council to be attended by Orthodox Christians as well as Catholics in full-communion with Rome, an Orthodox bishop would be most comfortable attending a council held here in New Rome. Is not our Emperor the heir to the crown of the Romans, the successor of the ancient protector of Orthodoxy? Was our nation not founded by those who fled Constantinople and the rest of the Byzantine Empire after the conquest by the heathen Turks?"

Conomos shakes his head.

"I got sidetracked there... my point is, I would've expected at least one Orthodox bishop to attend, they were certainly invited. Perhaps our inclusion of the Filioque in the creed..." Conomos gestures to the marble slab in which the Nicene Creed is engraved. "...was too much for them to bare. Anglicans could've attended too, since they recite the same Nicene Creed as us, although we find their definition of what constitutes a holy, Catholic and apostolic Church to be somewhat dubious to say the least. Goodness knows that any Christian was welcome to come and at least watch, if not vote."

"My point is that nobody responded, but our venerable brothers here assembled." Conomos says, concluding. "These people aren't interested in us reaching out to them, the only bishop to whose invitations they will respond is the Pope himself. Rome is already conducting ecumenical discussions with schismatic churches. I don't see how anything we could manage here would be more effective than those discussions in Rome. But, if Your Eminence insists upon them, I shall support them, reasoning that one who spends as much time in Rome as the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith must have a better idea of the effectiveness of such discussions, which have already healed schisms with many formerly Orthodox churches, than I..."

Bishop Bernard of the Kingdom of Tord timidly stands, takes off his galsses and starts scouring them with a tissue.
"P-Pardon good council, but I suppose the Kingdom of Tord could be considered one of these "schisms", and on behalf of this Kingdom, I can say with full assurance we fully support all Christian, or even non Christian denominations that believe in and worship God, and belive a council of all these different sects would be beneficial to the religion and participating nations as a whole. F-for what its worth, the Kingdom of Tord will participate in the open communication and formations between all sects of Chritianity, and religions similar to it."

"Your Grace doesn't speak for a Kingdom though, but for his bishopric." says Cardinal Conomos. "Besides, the real problem isn't on our side. We already invited schismatic churches and ecclesial communities to this council. Nobody came. I just don't see the point in holding out the false hope that we will be anymore successful in the future."

“With all due respect, your Eminence, I think it is worth a try,” Cardinal Walsh bows. “At an appropriate moment, should this Council endorse it, I shall call a council of all true Christians, making it clear that all who hold the Apostle’s Creed are welcome, be they Catholics, Schismatics, Orthodox or Protestant. I have considered calling the council in Excalbia. Do you foresee any objections to that?”

Cardinal Russell Crowe and Cardinal Augustus Brown boarded an aircraft headed to Jeruselem. "Well, a relatively successful council Russell?" commented Brown who was checking out the mini-bar. Crowe yawned and grabbed some whiskey and then grinned "Apart from those heretics, it was a good start".

Brown placed a document "Secret report on Heretic nations" back into his briefcase.

“With all due respect, your Eminence, I think it is worth a try,” Cardinal Walsh bows. “At an appropriate moment, should this Council endorse it, I shall call a council of all true Christians, making it clear that all who hold the Apostle’s Creed are welcome, be they Catholics, Schismatics, Orthodox or Protestant. I have considered calling the council in Excalbia. Do you foresee any objections to that?”

Cardinal Conomos shifts uncomfortably in his seat.

"What about any churches or ecclesial communities with valid eucharists, as defined by the last encyclical letter we each received from the Holy Father?" Conomos ventures. "Or at the very least, a valid sacrament of orders..."

“With all due respect, your Eminence, I think it is worth a try,” Cardinal Walsh bows. “At an appropriate moment, should this Council endorse it, I shall call a council of all true Christians, making it clear that all who hold the Apostle’s Creed are welcome, be they Catholics, Schismatics, Orthodox or Protestant. I have considered calling the council in Excalbia. Do you foresee any objections to that?”

Archbishop Vorn spoke. "Sorry but I feel few if any would come short of it being called by the pope himself."

“With all due respect, your Eminence, I think it is worth a try,” Cardinal Walsh bows. “At an appropriate moment, should this Council endorse it, I shall call a council of all true Christians, making it clear that all who hold the Apostle’s Creed are welcome, be they Catholics, Schismatics, Orthodox or Protestant. I have considered calling the council in Excalbia. Do you foresee any objections to that?”

Archbishop Vorn spoke. "Sorry but I feel few if any would come short of it being called by the pope himself."

Cardinal Walsh sat down wearily. He seemed to be swimming upstream here. "Very well. Let us table my proposal and move on to any other new business before any other delegates begin leaving..."

OOC: My Cardinal has been gone from sometime now but you should be hearing about the offical schism by now.

OOC: My Cardinal has been gone from sometime now but you should be hearing about the offical schism by now.

OOC: The schism was official the moment your Cardinal opened his mouth. And many of us have already reacted to it in your thread about it.

OOC: My Cardinal has been gone from sometime now but you should be hearing about the offical schism by now.

OOC: The schism was official the moment your Cardinal opened his mouth. And many of us have already reacted to it in your thread about it.

OOC: No I meant the whole invasion of my nation because of the schism thing.

OOC: No I meant the whole invasion of my nation because of the schism thing.

OOC: Ah. Well, politics and military action are hardly the concern of the Council of the Church, eh?

OOC: No I meant the whole invasion of my nation because of the schism thing.

OOC: Ah. Well, politics and military action are hardly the concern of the Council of the Church, eh?

OOC: It was the Churches of Teritora and Tordor who created the whole war (without Papal Blessing and authorization from what I read), not the governments of the two nations themselves. I think that falls under the Council's power does it not?

OOC: It was the Churches of Teritora and Tordor who created the whole war (without Papal Blessing and authorization from what I read), not the governments of the two nations themselves. I think that falls under the Council's power does it not?

OOC: No, it doesn't. The council is concerned with doctrinal matters, not in the administration of individual churches or bishoprics, although I believe the council has already taken a position against crusades...

ooc: i’m assuming this is over, so offer a wrap-up article from the TB local religious press....

From the Catholic New Times

Cardinals and Bishops from many of the world’s leading Catholic countries have concluded the Great Council of the Universal Church held in Pantocratoria. Called as a step towards church unity in memory of the late John Cardinal Duras, the Council showcased points of unity -- and points of difference.

Among its decisions:

-- the Nicene Creed was affirmed as the basis of common faith
-- John Paul II was accepted by all present as the sole Pope. All other pretender Popes were found to be false claimants.
-- No decision was made on the validity of past Crusades, but the Council agreed that Crusades should remain in the past. The Council endorsed a proposal by Cardinal Walsh of Excalbia that “forcing anyone to proclaim adherence to the Christian faith or to the Church by force of arms or threat of violence is contrary to the teachings of Christ and to the mission of the Church.” A proposal by Archbishop Vorn of Territora to allow offensive crusades to be called by the Pope was rejected.
-- The Council affirmed Papal teachings against abortion and contraception, but also condemned the use of violence against abortion clinics.
-- No vote was taken, but it was the feeling of the Council that conversion should be done by good works and example and not by the sword. “Let us be a shining beacon to the pagan, so that he can see through our good works what he should aspire to be,” said Cardinal Conomos of Pantocratoria. And Cardinal Brown of Jeruselem added: “I agree we should convert via more convert and subtle means as violence simply provides another reason to hate Catholicism.”
-- The Council rejected the validity of gay marriages performed in churches in Tanah Burung, affirming Vatican teachings that homosexuals may not marry in the church. Bishop Mangunvijaya’s request to be treated in the same way as an Eastern-rite Catholic church allowed to set its own rules on this matter was rejected by the other bishops.
-- The Council officially condemned the abuse of children by members of the clergy and resolved that, wherever local laws permit, those accused of such crimes be turned over immediately to the civil authorities for investigation, trial and punishment. In those rare cases, such as in Territora, where civil laws place the burden for punishing these crimes on the Church, then the Church should prosecute the offenders and remove them from the priesthood.

Returning home, Bishop Mangunvijaya said he would consult his fellow bishops over whether the church in Tanah Burung could comply with the Council’s ruling on gay marriage, or would declare itself in schism.

“Honestly,” he said, “it’s hard to say if any churches there will respect what the Council decided. A number of countries have already formed a new alliance which violates the council’s prohibition against crusades, so our compliance is the least of the church’s problems. Many of them quoted Papal encyclicals at us. We suggest the Crusade-minded go back and read Pace in Terris again."

OOC: Thankyou for the excellent summary. When you put it all together like that, the council got rather a lot done.

thanks - always like to see these things summed up for posterity!

good summary!

The Church council is over in Pantocratoria is over and had some most intresting results that will be likely debated fercely in Teritora and other countries. One intresting thing is that it basicly banned crusades such as the baltic crusades, but as most of the crusades were not wars of conversion, but waged agaist the muslims to recover formally christian lands, defend the holy land or in Teritora to throw down a Pagan government that seized control and was pursicuting christians, this still leaves a lot leave way that would have fixed by a resolution that was proposed by Teritora's own Archbishop. It will be intresting to find out what the Order of St. Vornsi, one of the last orders of knights of the church will react to this as well as several other orders. The reglious scene in Teritora is going to be intresting for some time.

TSNN