NationStates Jolt Archive

To our venerable brothers in the Episcopate,

Whereas fragmentation along national lines has damaged the international unity of the apostolic and Catholic Church, and in accordance with the last will and testament of our dearly departed venerable brother and predecessor John Cardinal Duras, Archbishop of New Rome, the Church in Pantocratoria, with the generous assistance of His Most Catholic and Imperial Majesty the Emperor Andreus of Pantocratoria, is hosting a Great Council of the Catholic Church.

On behalf of this council, I would like to invite each national Catholic Church to send a representative to New Rome to participate in this council to reaffirm the Christian unity which binds all churches together in the Catholic faith. This representative may be any bishop (this obviously includes Patriarchs and Cardinals) from your national communion.

At this Great Council of the Church, we will discuss the issues which confront our unity today, the concerns we have for the future of the Church's mission, and many other issues besides. I urge all of you, my venerable brothers, to come or send a representative in your place.

Yours in Christ,

Jacques Cardinal Conomos
Archbishop of New Rome, Pantocratoria

OOC: Please only reply to this thread if you've a proportion of your population which is Catholic, and wish to send a bishop along to the conference.

To the people who will inevitably troll this thread with deep insights along the lines of "LOL RELEGIONN SUXXORZ" - go away please, this is an RP thread, not a discussion about your opinion of Catholicism or religion in general.

To anybody who is planning to blow up the council whilst it is meeting - you'll note that this is a peaceful RP thread. Consider that the Pantocratorian security is so tight, that any attempt at violence would be doomed to failure. If you ignore the "peaceful RP" rule, you'll be ignored yourself.

Sorry about the length of this disclaimer, which will almost certainly be ignored anyway, but without it, we'd be bound to get swamped in trolls and could never get to the actual roleplaying!

We will send Cardinal Robert Aegeri. On the previous occassion where we held talks, things did not quite go as expected, and we hope to partake in a more rational debate here. We applaud this initiative and are looking forward to participating.

==============================

The Vortex Corporation Daiamid Council
Corporate Coalition
Templar Alliance
CENNA
SATO
WTE
SFN

”We bring new worlds to Life”

OOC: If people are interested in improving the authenticity of their RPs in this thread, you could brush up on Church etiquette for this thread.

http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/02ws/ws020523.htm

The Latin Patriarch of Jeruselem is already in Pantocratoria as well as Cardinal Brown of Jeruselem (from other RP).

Cardinal Russell Crowe is representing the Holy Latin Empire.

New Eastgate was probably horribly late in receiving word of the council, and would be later still getting anyone to attend.

With persistant threats against the federation from New Chelsea it was unthinkable that the loosely termed navy should spare a vessel. As a result, Bishop Edgar Hampshand of Raysee, Gregoria, would have to make do with the small merchantman, known as the Kipper.

(ooc:New Eastgate is a fractured nation in the Pacific somewhat frozen in time- just months ago we made our first use of steam-power, and so are without modern transport or communication systems.. and we're in no hurry to catch up.)

New Eastgate was probably horribly late in receiving word of the council, and would be later still getting anyone to attend.

With persistant threats against the federation from New Chelsea it was unthinkable that the loosely termed navy should spare a vessel. As a result, Bishop Edgar Hampshand of Raysee, Gregoria, would have to make do with the small merchantman, known as the Kipper.

(ooc:New Eastgate is a fractured nation in the Pacific somewhat frozen in time- just months ago we made our first use of steam-power, and so are without modern transport or communication systems.. and we're in no hurry to catch up.)

If Bishop Hampshand is travelling by sea, we recommend he make port at New Constantinople. He will be conveyed by train from there to New Rome for the council.

Matthew Cardinal Walsh is already en route to New Rome and will attend.

(He'll have to- NE is an island, and the finest flying machine in the nation is a teathered balloon ;) (ahem..end of tangent))

(He'll have to- NE is an island, and the finest flying machine in the nation is a teathered balloon ;) (ahem..end of tangent))

Tell ya what. Get to Jeruselem and we'll fly you to Pantocratoria on a private jet. We'll have to watch not to shoot the balloon down with our airforce. :wink:

Bishop Hampshand experienced a range of feelings as the Kipper skipped out past the huge iron ISAN and New Chelsea vessels in New Eastgate's waters.

Anticipation of spiritual and political growth, mystery, motion-sickness, this trip promised it all!

..And what in heaven's name was a jet? Ah well, Jeruselem couldn't be that far away, he'd find out soon enough.

On the instruciton of King Paul IV of New Eastgate, Hampshand was sharing the little sailing ship with an assortment of diplomatic gifts. Clocks, gold trinkets, elaborate staffs, and so forth. We're not to look like a backwater!

Archbishop Vorn unluckly has just excaped an assassination attempt that brought down half of the catheral that serves as the Royal chapel roof but he will make it to the conference.

Bishop Hampshand experienced a range of feelings as the Kipper skipped out past the huge iron ISAN and New Chelsea vessels in New Eastgate's waters.

Anticipation of spiritual and political growth, mystery, motion-sickness, this trip promised it all!

..And what in heaven's name was a jet? Ah well, Jeruselem couldn't be that far away, he'd find out soon enough.

On the instruciton of King Paul IV of New Eastgate, Hampshand was sharing the little sailing ship with an assortment of diplomatic gifts. Clocks, gold trinkets, elaborate staffs, and so forth. We're not to look like a backwater!

Some days later ...

The JNV Richard spots the vessel. "Looks like Bishop Hampshand's boat. Jesus, New Eastgate vessels aren't exactly luxury are they?" the captain laughed as he approached the kipper. The vessels moved alongside each other and walkway was extended. The Captain welcomed Bishop Hampshand with some knights watching them. "We will move to the airport and there is plane waiting for you. I can you don't like sea travel. Our doctors can help with that ..." the Captain said to the Bishop.

The JNV Richard started moving again towards Port Fanshield after detaching from the kipper.

OOC: You would allow for the Orange Catholic Church to send a representative?

Info on the Orange Catholic Church:

During the height of the short-lived paradise Mishakal Imperium a divergence emerged between the Catholic Counsel of Mishakal and Rome, the divergence lead eventualy to a full-fledge Schism due to doctrinal differences between Rome and the rising prophet Boshani (who later became the first Pope of the Orange Catholic Church Pope Joha I). Later when the Mishakal Imperium was destroyed over 5 million Orange Catholics and 2 million Hindasanis fled the crumbleing Mishakal Imperium and returned to earth and later the nation of Tiberius-Oni was created.

Differences:

-The Orange Catholic Church is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic Church except for these differences.

-The Orange Catholic Church teaches that the Supreme Deity is Sophia, the Mother of God. Also that God is but an infant in the womb of Sophia and that the entire universe is but the dim dreams of the unborn God and that the reason that there is good and evil is that the child is still growing in the womb and the dream is imperfect because God is still unformed. When the child is born it is believed that the universe will become perfect as Sophia will then teach and nurture her child (just as any mother would).

The Church also believes that each prophet and messiah that has come and gone (or has yet to come) is but a manifestation of Sophia's power bringing her unborn God into full awareness, Jesus and Mary were the greatest manifestations of Sophia yet to be seen (but Boshani was the first Messenger of Sophia).

There is no such thing as heaven or hell and that we are each granted a single life and when we die our souls either merge into the metamind of God or we are thrown into oblivion (as is the judgement of Sophia). The teachings of the Church are written in the Orange Catholic Bible a 7,000 page book containing what is called the True story of creation, the wisdom of Sophia and the messenger Boshani, the hymns, meditation practices to gain oneness with Sophia, and images of the Holy Mother pregnant with "God".

Ask me for any more information that you require.

OOC: While the Orange Catholic Church sounds fascinating, and I applaud you for coming up with such an original and well thought out national religion, it isn't Catholic or Christian, so we'd have to say no, I'm afraid.

Orthodox bishops are also welcome! We'd love to discuss the possibility of ending the schism.

Bishop Hampshand smiled weakly as he moved from one boat to the other, speaking quietly and showing great interest in what the foreign doctors could do for his comfort.

With him he brought two modestly dressed assistants who carried sacks full of the items of New Eastgate's good-will.

Hampshand presented to the captain of the Richard a chronometer -silver, and engraved on the back with a cross under which was born the maker's name; Tenley of Larton, a good clocksmith by Eastgate standards. After all, this was the first time in generations that New Eastgate had directly met with the outside world without anyone declaring war on them.

(Mechanical devices of this nature being new to Eastgate the piece will not be precision accurate, loosing a couple of seconds per month, at least, but it is clearly well made and likely of substantial value in a modern nation where such things are no longer made.. not that Hampshand understands his nation's time-pieces to be so antiquated)

Archbishop Vorn limped onto a plane, he had only suffered minor Injuries during the assassination attempt but he a rather aged man. This would be an intresting confrence he hoped, It would be intresting to see the results.

New Rome airfield

Just when the morning sun broke through the white clouds, a high sound could be heared coming from the skies. As ground personnel watched the sunrays illuminating the surrounding environment, a lone craft descended, the sun reflected on its white and blue coloring.

Whilst making a turn of almost 180 degrees, the corvette touched down on a predesignated location, and as the roaring of the engines decreased and eventually came to a halt, a single man exited the vessel. Finally finding himself in a position where he had some moving space again, Aegeri stretched his muscles, and then walked away from the corvette.

Seeing that the Cardinal had reached safe distance, the pilots of the craft re-powered there engines, and in a high soar of engine sounds, the vessel broke free of the ground, disappearing from sight less than half a minute later.

A car waits to take Cardinal Aegeri to the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator. It drives through the old quarter of New Rome, in the shadow of the massive Imperial Court of Christ Pantocrator, before arriving at the cathedral.

The Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator, New Rome
http://members.optusnet.com.au/a_marrington/ns/cathedral.gif

Built in the style of the Hagia Sophia of Constantinople, the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator only resembles the old Byzantine church on the outside. A few ancient icons on the inside speak to Pantocratoria's Eastern origins, but the rest of the interior is very much in the Western style. The Cathedral took a long time to complete, and the later interior work is much more influenced by the styles of Renaissance Rome than of Byzantine Constantinople.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/a_marrington/ns/ravenna.jpg
The icon at the entrance of the Cathedral.

The huge dome of the Cathedral is decorated with an icon of Christ Pantocrator, looking down on the congregation below.

In the sanctum of the Cathedral is an elevated marble box for the Imperial Family, accessible via a grand staircase. The marble box features a massive bronze throne for the senior Emperor. About the sanctum there are another six such boxes, with smaller thrones, which aren't elevated quite as high. Each of these were originally built for co-emperors, but the practice of sharing Imperial power has long since died out.

A virtual army of priests run the Cathedral.

After a six hour flight Archbishop Vorn arrived and disbarked from his Plane. Archbishop Vorn was a famed and well liked Conservative but was quite aged in his 80s, as he left his plane he was aided by several aides and behind them several church knights and solders walked. After the assasssination attempt, they were going to be extra careful about his safety.

A car conveys Archbishop Vorn to the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator.

Bishop Hampshand smiled weakly as he moved from one boat to the other, speaking quietly and showing great interest in what the foreign doctors could do for his comfort.

With him he brought two modestly dressed assistants who carried sacks full of the items of New Eastgate's good-will.

Hampshand presented to the captain of the Richard a chronometer -silver, and engraved on the back with a cross under which was born the maker's name; Tenley of Larton, a good clocksmith by Eastgate standards. After all, this was the first time in generations that New Eastgate had directly met with the outside world without anyone declaring war on them.

(Mechanical devices of this nature being new to Eastgate the piece will not be precision accurate, loosing a couple of seconds per month, at least, but it is clearly well made and likely of substantial value in a modern nation where such things are no longer made.. not that Hampshand understands his nation's time-pieces to be so antiquated)

The captain looked at the watch and was surprised "Wow, haven't seen these for a while. Thank you Bishop." and figured out New Eastgate missed the modern age. He guided the Bishop Hampshand to the guest room and explained what an aircraft was to the Bishop while showing him some images. He applied a patch to the Bishop which instantly relieved his sea sickness.

Time passed and the JNV Richard docked. Hampshand and his assistants were escorted by knights to a an official car.

Cardinal Frazer arrived in a white limousine. "Richelieu asked me to speak to Conomos as well."

From the Catholic New Times

Mangunvijaya joins church unity conference

Aboard the Flying Emu -- Hopes for an end to the many schisms within the global Catholic Church are high in the lead-up to the first attempt at church unity in many years.

Bishop F.X. Mangunvijaya is just one of the many church leaders expected at the Great Conference of the Church Universal in New Rome, capital of Pantocratoria. The unprecedented gathering was called by John Cardinal Conomos, Archbishop of New Rome, as an expression of the dying wish of his predecessor John Cardinal Duras for the unity of the church.

In an odd twist, the Bishop is travelling aboard the blimp that usually transports Tanah Burung's World Cup football squad, the Flying Emu. This marks the first time a government airship has been lent to anyone other than a diplomat or sports franchise, and has ben seen by some observers as a sign of the increasing influence of the Catholic church in national affairs. The percentage of citizens identifying themselves as Catholic recently returned to more than two-thirds for the first time since the early years of independence.

"Cardinal Duras was a true man of God," said Mangunvijaya, coordinator of the Tanah Burung Conference of Catholic Bishops and Bishop of Burung-yang-membuat-dunia. "He did not like everything that other churches did, but in his final testament, he put aside all that and called for the realization of the Creed: one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, the reuniting of the many scatteringlings of the church into one body."

Doctrinal differences and the lack of any organized ties between different Catholic communions have left the church splintered along national lines for many years. A number of national churches have even excommunciated one another.

"When we began to offer the sacrament of marriage to same-sex couples, some other national churches issued excommunication orders," Mangunvijaya said. "Even Cardinal Duras joined in that, although i'm very pleased that the church in Pantacratoria has lifted that order. You could say we're in impaired communion with parts of the global Catholic church that don't share our gay-positive views."

Isn't this an unsurmoutable barrier to full unity? "Well, we're not going to change the path that God has called us to walk, a path that embraces our gay sisters and brothers," Mangunvijaya told this reporter with a twinkle in his eye. "But I'm sure my brother bishops will not allow medieval teachings on human sexuality to get in the way of the main issue, the need to heal the rifts in the Church Universal."

The inside of the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator is arranged in four huge long tables, connected at the corners so as to form a square. At the head of the table is a huge throne for the host of the great council - Emperor Andreus of Pantocratoria.

The delegates who have already arrived are guided to their places in silence by the Cathedral's priests. Jacques Cardinal Conomos, the Archbishop of New Rome, greets each delegate in person as they arrive, and explains that an official opening Mass will soon be sung, once some more delegates arrive.

In the empty space in the middle of the tables, there is a huge white marble slab, in which the Nicene Creed is engraved in Latin, symbolising the common creed which draws together the bishops of all these fragmented churches.

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

As Aegeri was escorted to his seat, he noticed the marble and the writings engraved on it. Out of routine, he read the words, translating them in his mind:

I believe in one God, the almighty father, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

And (I believe) in Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally hailing of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, existing, not made, of one creature with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our saving, he descended from heaven:
By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born from the Virgin Mary,
and was made human, For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he reincarnated, in accordance with the Writings, he ascended to heaven, now sitting at the right hand of his Father. He will come again in glory and judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will be eternal

(We believe) in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and honoured. He has spoken through the seers. (We believe)in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiving of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

OOC: (Is this right? I don't have a dictionary here)

As Aegeri was escorted to his seat, he noticed the marble and the writings engraved on it. Out of routine, he read the words, translating them in his mind:

I believe in one God, the almighty father, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

And (I believe) in Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally hailing of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, existing, not made, of one creature with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our saving, he descended from heaven:
By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born from the Virgin Mary,
and was made human, For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he reincarnated, in accordance with the Writings, he ascended to heaven, now sitting at the right hand of his Father. He will come again in glory and judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will be eternal

(We believe) in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and honoured. He has spoken through the seers. (We believe)in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiving of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

OOC: (Is this right? I don't have a dictionary here)

OOC: That's correct... you didn't actually translate that in your head from Latin did you? The English version is easily found! :D

Aegeri might note the inclusion of the "filioque", a point of contention between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Roman Catholic Church.

[ooc: didn't notice it, sorry. But church Latin is often not that hard to translate. Also, I have read the Dutch version once or twice, and that helped a great deal. Still, I wish I had just looked it up though, now that you mention it]

[ooc: didn't notice it, sorry. But church Latin is often not that hard to translate. Also, I have read the Dutch version once or twice, and that helped a great deal. Still, I wish I had just looked it up though, now that you mention it]

OOC: I had to look up the Latin version, since I've only ever learned the English one! :lol:

OOC

Medieval latin is bastardised version of Roman Latin by the barbarians turned Christians anyway.

OOC

Medieval latin is bastardised version of Roman Latin by the barbarians turned Christians anyway.

OOC: Quite correct, ain't it grand? 8)

Anyway, there's a rather good page about it in Wiki which will give anyone interested in the Nicene Creed for the purposes of debate a good grounding in the issues and arguments which have evolved over time about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

OOC: A few words are slightly different in the English from your translaton, but still awfully impressive! One quibble: "on the third day he reincarnated" may be the wrong word. "Rose again" is the standard English usage and lacks the Buddhist overtones of "reincarnation."

OOC: I had rather hoped to have a few more delegates, but I will officially open the council soon and we'll just let the latecomers... well... come in late! :)

Anyone want to send delegates?

(OOC: Catching up; I’ve been away for a few days.)

As the Flying Peacock flight from Rome taxied to the terminal, John Cardinal Friesz paced nervously. It wasn’t as if Cardinal Walsh and he weren’t friends or that they didn’t both want to put petty politics behind them and focus on the true mission of the Church, but... That “but” gave Cardinal Friesz pause. His mentor and role model had suddenly become very involved in the politics of the Church. All for good cause, he knew, to ensure that the Pope’s teachings weren’t corrupted by those who would twist them to fit their own brand of orthodoxy. But. That word again. Friesz prayed that Cardinal Walsh hadn’t been seduced by the lure of the power and had remembered the purpose behind his actions. He didn’t even know why he was so worried; Walsh had given him no reason to doubt him. He guessed it was his talk with Cardinal Poitiers-Phocas in New Constantinople. He had been chagrined by the Pantocratorian’s rejection of politics and his earnest plea to intercede with Cardinal Walsh to bring the jockeying for position to an end. He hoped Cardinal Walsh would receive these words from Cardinal Poitiers-Phocas as he had.

Seeing that the plane had docked with the jetway and that the first class passengers were deplaning, Cardinal Friesz straightened his robes and walked towards the doorway. Friesz smiled as he saw Walsh, dressed not in robes, but in a black suit, with the roman collar and the cardinal’s cap.

Walsh spotted Friesz and walked over to him. “Your Eminence,” Walsh said with a smile.

Friesz bowed slightly. “Your Eminence, welcome to Pantocratoria. I’m glad to see you before the council, y..er.. Matthew. I wanted to discuss something with you…”

“John, you sound so serious. Let us talk in the car.” Cardinal Walsh turned to one of the inquisitors who was accompanying him and handed him his baggage claim check.

Friesz noticed the inquisitors for the first time. Hmmm, he thought. Bodyguards. Why? But, he said nothing and followed Walsh to the car.

Some time later, after a quick stop at Walsh’s lodging to change into his robes, the car carrying Cardinals Walsh and Friesz arrived at the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator. Cardinal Walsh shook hands with Cardinal Friesz. “John, thank you. I will consider the Cardinal’s counsel and do what I can.” (OOC: To see the message Cardinal Friesz had for Walsh, look here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77333&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20) Then, Walsh stepped out of the car, followed by four inquisitors, and climbed the steps into the Cathedral. Seeing Cardinal Conomos waiting to greet the other delegates, Walsh stepped over to introduce himself.

Jacques Cardinal Conomos crosses to the Excalbian Cardinals.

"Your Lordships," he says in greeting. "It warms me to see you here... the both of you..."

He looks a little uncomfortable.

"Unfortunately, Your Eminences, each national church was asked to send, well, only one bishop. You're both very welcome here of course, but only one of you may participate in the conference itself, I'm afraid. And, Your Eminence, the inquisitors will have to go. I do apologise for the mix-up." he says, apologetically.

Cardinal Frazer stepped calmly past the delegation from Excalbia. "Your eminence, our mutual friend told me to come to speak to you about a certain bargain." He inwardly mocked the Excalbians. Fools. There are no Inquisitors but those of the true faith. These pathetic shadows are nothing.

Cardinal Walsh bows slightly to Cardinal Conomos. “Your Eminence, no need for any apologies or awkwardness. Cardinal Friesz here was just riding along with me from the airport. He has just come from visiting Cardinal Poitiers-Phocas in New Constantinople and was giving me a word of admonishment from the good cardinal. One that I hope to take to heart. He was telling me that Cardinal Poitiers-Phocas spoke highly of you and that he wanted to extend you his greetings, so I invited him to greet you now. But he will not be attending…”

“In fact,” Cardinal Friesz interrupted, his face slightly reddened, “I have a flight back to Excalbia in a few hours. I did want to greet you, Your Eminence, and give you both my condolences on Cardinal Duras’ untimely death and my sincere wishes for success in carrying out his final wishes.” With a bow, Cardinal Friesz turns and heads back for the car accompanied by the inquisitors. Once outside the Cathedral, Cardinal Friesz steps into the car and departs. The inquisitors, however, casually take up positions near the Cathedral, but discretely out of sight.

Cardinal Walsh sees Cardinal Frazer approach. Hmmm. Richelieu must be too busy with something to attend. I wonder if Frazer has any independence or if he’s completely at the end of Richelieu’s string.

“Your Eminence,” Walsh says, not being one to be brushed aside lightly, “it is good to see you, but I must confess that I was rather expecting to see Cardinal Richelieu. We had a very pleasant conservation in the Vatican a short while ago and I was hoping to revisit it.”

Frazer grinned. A large, rather muscular man, he was built like a tank and was almost as single-minded. "I heard. Got him in a snit, you did. He threw a book at the head of the first man to ask him about his trip." Frazer gestured back at the 'Inquisitors'. "Everyone thought he would be put in charge of the Inquisition." Frazer shook his head. "He said several rather distressing things about you, I'm afraid. Seems to think that the Church should move backwards, and not forwards. Me, I'm a realist."

"Would all non-delegates please leave now?" asks Cardinal Conomos on the microphone from the pulpit of the great Cathedral. Non-delegates start to leave. "Thankyou!"

In the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator there are now only the bishops visiting from all the various national churches, the choir of three hundred, and a few Pantocratorian priests tending to it. The doors of the Cathedral sweep open and the choir starts singing "Veni Sancte Spiritus" as the Emperor of Pantocratoria, flanked by two members of the Varangian Guard, in full regalia, looking like an ancient Byzantine Emperor, enters the huge church.

The Cathedral doors close behind him again, as a Mass in Latin begins.

***

After the Mass, as the choir files out of the Cathedral via the back, the Emperor seats himself at the head of the huge conference table. He picks up a gavel, and bangs it against the table.

"By the power vested in me as God's vicegerent on Earth, Equal of the Apostles, exiled Emperor of the Romans, I, Andreus, Most Catholic Imperator of the Holy Empire of Pantocratoria, hereby declare this Great Council of the Church Universal open." he says in a regal voice, before banging his gavel again.

He looks to the assembled delegates to see who will speak first.

(ooc:My character is supposed to be arriving with the Jeruselem delegation, I think, since he's flying by their hospitality. I will assume they've arrived, but will back up to fill in earlier blanks if need be.)

Bishop Hampshand was surely whiter than any collar or robe could have been. Was I just flying? It wasn't a dream.. I am not where I began..

He was more than impressed by the amplification of Conomos' voice, and supposed that architects here must understand accoustics better than in Eastgate.

The awed bishop didn't consider speaking first even for a moment, and just sat almost open-mouthed.

He was in the mindset that apparently the Catholic world had undergone a revolution missed in Eastgate, and was surely the centre of the world now, with all this technological glory. It must be the envy of the world, and surely confirmed as the true faith, he thought.

He didn't want to look so ignorant as to ask if actually everyone else in the world had been converted. Perhaps Eastgate was the only nation yet to convert its heathen population.

Hampshand felt quite unwell with nerves and wonderment.

Cardinal Aegeri calmly sat on is chair. Living for decades in a nation that seemed obsessed with architecture, he had grown quite used to large and impressive buildings. In general, he liked to think that big buildings were often used to compensate for other things lacking, or at the very least to convince spectators of possessing more power and wisdom than was actually the case.

But, he did feel comfortable here. Here, he was amongst equals, men of his own league. Though he did not intent to start the discussion himself, he was looking forward to exchanging opinions with his brethern.

OOC: As background about the Cathedral of Christ Pantocrator, on the outside it is almost identical to the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, modern day Istanbul. Since Pantocratoria was founded by people fleeing after the fall of Constantinople, they built this cathedral because they WERE lacking something - the city of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia. So Cardinal Aegeri is quite correct! :D

Cardinal Walsh stood and bowed slightly towards the Emperor. “Your Majesty, I wish to first commend you and Cardinal Conomos for holding this Council. It has become painfully obvious in recent times that the universal Church is being torn asunder by factions and schisms. Each group in these rifts cites dogma, theology or sentiments of the day to justify their own positions and to condemn those with whom they disagree. Political jockeying has replaced faithfulness, love and obedience to the Holy See. It is my hope, and that of the entire Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, that we may use this Council to rediscover the common faith that binds us together, to restore our mutual fellowship and to reestablish the primacy of Rome.”

Walsh paused to look around the room, then continued. “As a first step in this course, let us all resolve to earnestly seek the guidance of the Spirit and to focus on those things that are good and righteous and worthy and to encourage one another rather than criticize and attack.”

“I suggest that this,” Walsh gestured to the marble tablets containing the Nicene Creed, “be our starting point. Let us reaffirm the foundations of the faith that binds us in the form of the creed.”

Aegeri respected the words of Cardinal Walsh. He knew him as a rational, thoughtful person, and had always recommended some of his more well-known written works to his students of theology. Now, he nodded to his collegue in appreciation, and made his reply:

"The Utharian branche of the Catholic Church, which I represent in this conference, fully agrees with Cardinal Walsh' words. The Nicene Creed shows us that we all build our faith on the same foundation, with the same origin and hopefully, a common future. And it is without a single word of doubt in my mind that I say that I think this goes for us all.

As for the unification of the church, there are several things I would like to say. First of all, each of you will agree that various differences in several regions will always exist within the Church. After all, each place has its own culture, history and tradition, and each of those influences all aspects of society, including religion.

But it is true that we need to be unified again. There are several options, for instance the creation of a new Council of Cardinals, with representatives from as many nations as possible. The second possibility is the creation of a standing Crusader Army. As unfortunate as it is, a common enemy and a strong force of warriors to combat it, is more unifying than anything else in this world. But there are other alternatives of course, for instance exchange programs, media campaigns, a religious/political alliance, or perhaps something of a more esotherical nature, I do not know.

What my point is, is that there are numerous possibilities to reunite us. And it is about time that we start utilizing the means that we have to do so!"

Archbishop Vorn rose and spoke spoke. "Indeed but there is one thing we should all be able to agree on, the Pope is the only true head of the Church, even the most liberal should able to do that. I do say that the Teritoran Branch while being extremely convervitve, in that our Inquistion, our church soldiers and several orders of knights of the chuch have not been disbanded. But something should be done about the antipopes. The Pope in rome is the heir of Peter and the only true pope."

Bishop Mangunviajya stands, clears his throat nervously, and speaks.

"Let me just thank our hosts. The mass was an inspiration, truly. Now on what's been said: the creed as a basis of unity is, of course, more than acceptable to my church. We wish for unity, and we're glad to see so many others feel the same way. It's a historic moment, really. As it is, there are more people out there claiming to be Pope, or sole defender of the faith, than there are cardinals, which seems a bit silly. Hopefully, this conference will put a stop to that. We need more servants of Christ, and fewer pretenders puffed up with their own importance. In my humble opinion, that is."

He sits down, and starts to ponder the specific suggestions made. Wouldn't do to react from the gut, have to think these things through. Reason over passion, the Jesuits had taught him, and that seemed right for this occasion.

"I call upon all who are present to accept that the only Pope is his holiness, Pope John Paul II." Malcom stood up. "There is no church without him, and either accept him, or cease calling yourselves Catholic."

Archbishop Vorn. "Indeed, Pope John Paul II is the only true pope by Tradition, sacred laws and the Teachings of the church."

Having recieved the munificent invitation by Pantacratoria, the Schismatic States' most senior Catholic official and the national Prime Minister, Francisco Cardinal Braganca (pronounced bruh-GAHN-zuh), had made arrangements to partake in this honorable endeavor. However a palace coup against the king threw our nation into turmoil for a few days while the army suppressed the rebels, and the Cardinal's trip to Pantacratoria was delayed...

*******

The Council had already begun deliberations when the Schismatic States delegation reached Pantacratoria. As the sun was setting Cardinal Braganca arrived by plane in New Rome, accompanied by a large retinue of his bodyguards. Surrounding him are lesser officials of both the Schismatic States National Church and the Schismatic Royal Government. Preeminent members of the Cardinal's coterie include Grand Inquisitor Don Alvaro de Luna, Chancellor Arturio Cardinal Gabarelli, and Grand Prince Demetrius von Caprivi on behalf of King Xenophon. Descending from his jet the Grand Prince apologizes profusely to Emperor Andreus' welcome committee, expressing his greatest regrets that the Schismatic States delegation failed to arrive at the Council in a more timely fashion.

Cardinal Braganca, aged 73, is widely regarded by outsiders as loony. His hardline position against what he calls the "evils" of secularism, Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, and other ideologies has not endeared him to non-Catholics. Furthermore, his open condemnation of the so-called "secularist-modernist" current Pope's policies and his vociferous rejection of the liberalizing Second Vatican has enraged mainstream Catholics. More than once he has publicly denounced John Paul II as a "libertine anti-pope" or "an instrument of the devil." Braganca believes that harmonious coexistence between Catholics and non-Catholics (a policy confirmed by Second Vatican and advocated by John Paul II) is evil, and that Catholics must destroy all heretics. He also wants the College of Cardinals to elect a ultraconservative Pope after the death of John Paul II. He hopes that a new, reactionary Pontiff will repeal the "liberal modernisms" embodied in Second Vatican, a Council he deems "a pact with Satan."

The establishment of the Holy Inquisition in the Schismatic States also did not improve Braganca's stature in the eyes of outsiders. International observers estimate that the Holy Inquisition killed nearly 500,000 "heretics" in the Schismatic States - Protestants, communists, pagans, evolutionists, and others. Outraged international observers and those persecuted have long been calling for the downfall of Braganca.

Cardinal Braganca indeed is one of the most reviled Christian officials alive today. He has taken extra security precautions on this journey; just last week Pantacratorian police arrested Victor Schmidt, a Protestant refugee from the Schismatic States. The suspect was plotting to assassinate the Cardinal, whose Holy Inquisition wiped out Schmidt's entire family back in the Schismatic States before Schmidt managed to find asylum in Pantocratoria. However there are rumors of more plots against the Cardinal's life...

Nevertheless, Braganca disembarks from his plane with the utmost dignity; his perfectly erect back and confident gray eyes betray none of the mortal fear he should have felt in twenty-three previous assassination attempts against him. Instead it speaks to his complete and fervent faith in God that in these deadly situations he felt not one tincture of fear; every time he was prepared to go down as a martyr in the Name of the bridegroom and His bride. His main goal for this Council is to promote a world-wide Inquisition and Crusade against heretics. He has said previously, "only unity of purpose can destroy the blasphemies of abortion, evolution, and religious tolerance."

In contrast to the zealous Cardinal Braganca, his subordinate Arturio Cardinal Gabarelli is considered a moderate. Gabarelli, the Exchequer Chancellor of the Royal Government and Prince-Archbishop of Middle Palatinate, desperately wants to abolish the bloody Holy Inquisition, which has caused the Schismatic States to be viewed by foreigners as fanatical. He hopes that a visit to New Rome will temper Braganca's extremist opinions and bring meaningful reform to the Schismatic States. Gabarelli also wants to reintegrate the national church back into the international Catholic Communion, which was rejected in 1977 by the Schismatic States as "secularist and heretical."

OOC: Just remember, Cardinal Braganca is welcome, but his delegation will have to remain outside. Only delegates, the Emperor himself, and two of the Emperor's guards are allowed in the Cathedral during the council.

"I agree with the opinions of the esteemed delegates who have spoken before me. My venerable brothers, we are united by this creed, although Orthodox bishops out of communion with Rome may have their issues with the word 'Filioque' in there. But we are also united by the See of Rome, and we should all reaffirm John Paul II as the one Pope of the Catholic Church. Let every delegate reaffirm the Holy Father as pontiff, so that we may say that two things unite us; the creed and our veneration of that most venerable bishop!" says Cardinal Conomos.

"I agree with the opinions of the esteemed delegates who have spoken before me. My venerable brothers, we are united by this creed, although Orthodox bishops out of communion with Rome may have their issues with the word 'Filioque' in there. But we are also united by the See of Rome, and we should all reaffirm John Paul II as the one Pope of the Catholic Church. Let every delegate reaffirm the Holy Father as pontiff, so that we may say that two things unite us; the creed and our veneration of that most venerable bishop!" says Cardinal Conomos.

OOC: And not even an official Pantacratorian escort for the good Cardinal? :) j/k

"The false election of the anti-Pope John Paul II was engineered by none other than Satan. We must pray for his early death and hope that you, my friends, have the sense to elect a true man after God." The contentious Braganca delivers this short speech to the horror of the delegates...

Cardinal Gabarelli rises, flustered, after Braganca assumes his seat, and quickly says, "We must first determine whether Pope John Paul II has strayed from the Catholic tradition before condemning him in such a manner. Does anyone want to offer evidence of any non-Christian actions by the Bishop of Rome?"

Braganca checks his instinct to immediately challenge Gabarelli; instead he reserves his thoughts to refute any statements that the other delegates might make in support of the current Pope.

"Your Eminences..." says the Emperor looking at the two Cardinals from the Schismatic States. "One of you will have to leave. Each national church is permitted only one representative."

"Your claim that Satan elected John Paul II is patently false, Your Eminence." says Cardinal Conomos indignantly. "Even if a Pope's election was engineered by some outside force, once he becomes Pope, he is incapable of making doctrinal errors! The Bishop of Rome is infallible on such matters. Even if Satan himself managed to get his own bishop elected as Pontiff, that Pope would be as legitimate and valid as any other, and he would reign in the Holy Spirit! Or do you also deny the doctrine of Papal infallibility, brother?"

The Archbishop Vorn rose to his feet again. "Heretic, hellspawn, you should be burned at the stake. How dare you attack the high Pontiff who has done more for the catholic faith than you have ever done, who oposed the vile soviets. Who took the message of faith to the people. What would The Schismatic States heretics know?"

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"Your Eminences, Your Graces, let us keep this civil." says the Emperor.

Frazer reaches over and slams into the table in front of him with all his considerable strength. "Get out. Braganca. Get out, or I throw you out." He stands up. "I have never heard such filth in all my life. Richelieu would order you killed for that, but I am more forgiving."

The Emperor bangs the gavel again.

"Your Eminence!" he shouts across the cavernous Cathedral to Cardinal Frazer. He turns to the two Schismatic States Cardinals. "Only one of you will be allowed to stay, so that every national church is equally represented. So please pick one representative."

"Your Eminences..." says the Emperor looking at the two Cardinals from the Schismatic States. "One of you will have to leave. Each national church is permitted only one representative."

"Your claim that Satan elected John Paul II is patently false, Your Eminence." says Cardinal Conomos indignantly. "Even if a Pope's election was engineered by some outside force, once he becomes Pope, he is incapable of making doctrinal errors! The Bishop of Rome is infallible on such matters. Even if Satan himself managed to get his own bishop elected as Pontiff, that Pope would be as legitimate and valid as any other, and he would reign in the Holy Spirit! Or do you also deny the doctrine of Papal infallibility, brother?"

Gabarelli bows deeply to the Emperor, "You Majesty Basileus, I shall defer to my superior Braganca." With an unhappy look on his face, he realizes that his conciliatory agenda will not be prevail upon the elder Cardinal, and he takes his leave.

Braganca rises to address the Council: "Papal Infallibility is indeed the Will of God. But the question should be, is John Paul II actually the Pope? This may seem to some of you a ridiculous question, but I shall attempt to clarify the answer.

Papal infallibility states that the Holy Spirit speaks with authority directly through the Pope; the Holy Spirit is not merely represented by the Pope.

However Satan speaks through the Pope; this fact can only indicate that the Holy Spirit does not speak through the Pope since death and the Lord Christ cannot mix. And therefore because the very nature of the Pope states that the Bishop of Rome speaks with the authority of the Holy Ghost, John Paul II is not actually the Pope since he does not speak with the authority of the Holy Ghost. He speaks with the deception of Satan."

The Archbishop Vorn rose to his feet again. "Heretic, hellspawn, you should be burned at the stake. How dare you attack the high Pontiff who has done more for the catholic faith than you have ever done, who oposed the vile soviets. Who took the message of faith to the people. What would The Schismatic States heretics know?"

Replies Braganca, "Communism was not defeated by the efforts of the anti-Pope John Paul II, but through the personal intercession of the Lord. Satan positioned himself in this world to appear as though John Paul II defeated the evils of Bolshevism, but this is to deceive mortals to trust in John Paul, his instrument of doom."

Frazer gets up, slowly. "Braganca. I will ask one more time, as a brother Cardinal, to go. Then, I will stop asking."

Archbishop Vorn spoke calmly. "You Judas priest, the only one who speaks with the tougue of satan is you. You don't have any proof or anything to do by, your only trying to lead the faithful astray like Larzus of Kecha."

"Indeed. Vorn, Richelieu asked me to pass greetings on to you." Frazer inclined his head, and continued to walk towards Braganca.

Frazer gets up, slowly. "Braganca. I will ask one more time, as a brother Cardinal, to go. Then, I will stop asking."

"Heretic, I am Bishop through the work of His Holiness the late Pius XII. I am a loyal servant of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Christian Church. It is your adherence to the heresies of Second Vatican that is polluting our esteemed gathering."

"I am a Heretic? Pathetic fool. Pope John Paul II was chosen by a full college of cardinals. He is the legitimate pope."

Archbishop Vorn spoke calmly. "You Judas priest, the only one who speaks with the tougue of satan is you. You don't have any proof or anything to do by, your only trying to lead the faithful astray like Larzus of Kecha."

"Ask yourself this, what have you accomplished through your apathy toward the unsaved souls of Protestantism, Islam, and the other heresies? There is no denying that Satan spoke through Martin Luther and Mohammed. Why do you partake in the great pact with Satan that was the Second Vatican Council and continue to tolerate this stain on the Body of Christ?

John Paul II supports the secularism and liberalism of Second Vatican, which advocated religious toleration, and he himself openly befriends the heresies. I request that you condemn him for turning a blind eye to the works of the devil."

"The most conservative and most liberal catholics all agree that he is the pope, Braganca."

"Indeed, the most conservative and most liberal catholics all agree that he is the pope, Braganca."

"Indeed the Kingdom of God does not care for conservatism or liberalism. God cares only for goodness and He hates evil. Evil can come in many earthly forms."

"Indeed, the most conservative and most liberal catholics all agree that he is the pope, Braganca."

"Even Richelieu accepts him, and he ordered a woman who aborted a full term child taken to the Inquisitorial dungeons." Frazer snorted in disgust. "If you wish to argue... then in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, I hereby call upon this council to pronounce the people of Schismatic States under excommunication. Get thee hence."

Archbishop Vorn spoke calmly. "You Judas priest, the only one who speaks with the tougue of satan is you. You don't have any proof or anything to do by, your only trying to lead the faithful astray like Larzus of Kecha."

"Ask yourself this, what have you accomplished through your apathy toward the unsaved souls of Protestantism, Islam, and the other heresies? There is no denying that Satan spoke through Martin Luther and Mohammed. Why do you partake in the great pact with Satan that was the Second Vatican Council and continue to tolerate this stain on the Body of Christ?

John Paul II supports the secularism and liberalism of Second Vatican, which advocated religious toleration, and he himself openly befriends the heresies. I request that you condemn him for turning a blind eye to the works of the devil."

"You speak Hereticy agaist the church, Braganca, recant now."

"Indeed, the most conservative and most liberal catholics all agree that he is the pope, Braganca."

"Even Richelieu accepts him, and he ordered a woman who aborted a full term child taken to the Inquisitorial dungeons." Frazer snorted in disgust. "If you wish to argue... then in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, I hereby call upon this council to pronounce the people of Schismatic States under excommunication. Get thee hence."

"Your Richelieu tolerates a Pope who actively befriends Islam and Protestantism. Your Richelieu should have been burned at the stake for being in league with the forces of the devil. God cares not for conservatism, liberalism, or any of our mortals' earthly squabbles. He only cares that we honor His name and abide by His Will. His Will calls upon us to reject death and all who tempt us toward hell."

OOC: Aye, I posted under one of my puppets, Daily-bagel Land but that shouldnt matter much.

"You speak with the forked tongue of the devil and are proving to be no catholic. I think maybe there should be a crusade."

Frazer closed the distance between them and solidly punched Braganca. "Heretic. Tool of Satan. Get out, or I'll hit you again." He spat and turned away, returning to his seat.

OOC: At least Richelieu waits until the person isn't going to be humiliated publically. Three strike warning, and if you say a word against Richelieu to any Roanian Cardinal you have to take your lumps.

"You speak with the forked tongue of the devil and are proving to be no catholic. I think maybe there should be a crusade."

"HA! You have failed to crusade against the forces of the devil - the heretics of Luther and the sodomites of Mohammed - yet you speak of crusade against those who profess the Lord Christ and His Church!"

"You are Heretic that defiles gods church. You do not profess Gods church only a false path."

Frazer closed the distance between them and solidly punched Braganca. "Heretic. Tool of Satan. Get out, or I'll hit you again." He spat and turned away, returning to his seat.

OOC: At least Richelieu waits until the person isn't going to be humiliated publically. Three strike warning, and if you say a word against Richelieu to any Roanian Cardinal you have to take your lumps.

The elderly Braganca gets up; he is no stranger to what he believes are the trials of God - twenty-three assassination attempts have been mounted against him in the past. "Tell me, Frazer, does Richelieu tolerate the fact that the devil exists on this earth - in the form of Protestantism and Islam and the secularist heresies? Even if I were the tool of the devil, why do you not raise your hand against those who openly reject God? If Richelieu is not proactive, then his is passive, and one cannot be passive in the fight for the Kingdom of God."

Frazer lunges for him, but is grabbed by Pedro. "Frazer, wait!"

The Mexican pulls him back. "Calm down, my Roanian friend. We shall deal with this loco man calmly."

Frazer lunges for him, but is grabbed by Pedro. "Frazer, wait!"

The Mexican pulls him back. "Calm down, my Roanian friend. We shall deal with this loco man calmly."

Braganca turns toward Pedro and smiles. "Thank you, brother. It is good to see that at least some men of God have control over their petty emotions. Whereas a true man after God deals justice toward injustice without any personal passions and with only the love of God, I see that many within the Roanian hierarchy have been lacking in protocol."

Frazer lunges forward again. Pedro catches his cuff. "Malcom, should Johannes find out you attacked an old man... think of how it could rebound on his attempt to become the next pope. More importantly, thing about what he'd do to all of us!"

"We can all agree that Satan spoke through the most evil heretics - Luther, Calvin, Oldenbarnevelt, and Melanchthon. Satan also spoke through the pagan deceivers - Mohammed, Buddha, the Imam Ali.

But the Second Vatican Council allows Catholics to tolerate the followers of these people. This is equivalent of entering an unholy union with the devil. And the current "Pope," John Paul II, not only upholds the Second Vatican Council but also has made his own secular decisions, including advocating religious toleration and befriending many high-profile non-Christians. We can befriend them, but not for the sake of mere mortal human friendship. We must befriend them to convert them into the Church and fulfill the wishes of God.

Either we convert the followers of the devil or we must rid the world of them."

OOC: AH HA! Everyone, this is Mel Gibson!

OOC: AH HA! Everyone, this is Mel Gibson!'

OOC: Yeah, that bastard. :)

OOC: AH HA! Everyone, this is Mel Gibson!'

OOC: Yeah, that bastard. :)

OOC: Mel, it's me! Your agent! : :P

"ENOUGH!" shouts the Emperor, banging his gavel. He points at Frazer. "Sit down, Cardinal! Nobody will resort to violence here!"

"Now, I propose a peaceful solution to this. The council takes a vote to recognise Pope John Paul II as the true Bishop of Rome, the true pontiff." says the Emperor. "If the vote passes, then this council should take another vote to excommunicate any dissenters who do not concur with the council's decision as to whether John Paul II is the true Pope. This is an ecumenical council, and it is therefore infallible on matters of doctrine! If this council reaffirms John Paul II as Pope, then anybody who disagrees with its finding is, in fact, a heretic."

"So, let the council now take a vote. Is John Paul II the rightful and legitimate Pope, the Bishop of Rome? Vote now!" says the Emperor, banging his gavel again to officially call the vote.

OOC: OK I am going to say this again - everyone is allowed only one character here in the conference. Nobody else. Only the delegates themselves - not the rest of their delegation. Nothing. So can everyone please remove any characters who are not their national representative, eg Roania's Pedro, for example?

OOC: Pedro is a Mexican Cardinal. I use him as a rep to show Richelieu's support amongst the other Cardinals.

IC: "I support this statement. John Paul II is our pope."

OOC: Pedro is a Mexican Cardinal. I use him as a rep to show Richelieu's support amongst the other Cardinals.

IC: "I support this statement. John Paul II is our pope."

OOC: Ah, gotcha, sorry. Some people seemed a little confused about it, and when I saw you introduce Pedro I thought you might be as well.

IC: "Your vote has been noted, Your Eminence, now please, take your seat in peace." says the Emperor. A scribe has been called in to record the outcome of the vote, and he makes a note in the "Affirm" column.

Cardinal Walsh felt his mobile phone vibrate in the pocket of his vestments. He discretely pulled it out and looked at it. It was John Friesz. Certainly he knew that the Council had started. So it must be important. But, the vote was more important. He hit turned off the phone and replaced it in his pocket. The he stood.

“I would like to say that it grieves my heart to hear such strife and discord. But it grieves my spirit even more to hear such vile heresy. Pope John Paul II is the pope and he has been and remains God’s faithful servant. Rather than making war on our brother and sister Christians outside the Church – surely as much a sin as anything else I can imagine; isn’t murder prohibited in the Ten Commandments, or does His Eminence from the Schismatic States claim the authority to overturn the commandments! – we should be reaching out to our fellow Christians to do as much as we can together for the cause of Christ. For is it not our mission to convert the non-Christians to faith and to minister to the poor and needy? And can we not do that in common with all Christians? And, as I recall, our Lord commanded us to preach, teach and baptize all nations – he never mentioned anything about doing it at the point of the sword or under the fear of torture as the Schismatic States would have us do. So, I vote to recognize His Holiness John Paul II as pope indeed and to immediately excommunicate the heretical church of the Schismatic States, until such a time as that church repents its sins and seeks reunification.”

With that Walsh sat. Seeing where the vote was headed, though, Walsh relaxed a bit and decided to find out what Cardinal Friesz wanted. As carefully and as quietly as he could, Walsh slipped away from the table and moved to the doors of the Cathedral. He stepped out and opened his phone. Dialing Cardinal Friesz’s number.

(OOC: Since this is a peaceful RP, what happens next can be found here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83503&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=200; Walsh will return shortly.)

The Emperor nods in Cardinal Walsh's direction.

"Another vote to affirm John Paul II as Pope." he says, as the scribe writes.

Pedro raises his hand. "I speak for Mexico, and I say aye."

OOC: If this is wrong, discount it.

Pedro raises his hand. "I speak for Mexico, and I say aye."

OOC: If this is wrong, discount it.

OOC: I won't count it, but I don't mind Pedro voting. It won't affect the end decision though.

Archbishop Vorn spoke. "John Paul II is the pope and no heretical Judas Priest can truefully say otherwise."

"Your Grace's vote has been noted." says the Emperor as the scribe scribbles.

Cardinal Russel Crowe raised his hand "I reaffirm our belief John Paul II is the true pope on behalf of the Holy Latin Empire."

Cardinal Brown opened his instructions from the Latin Patriarch and pondered and raised his hand "I reaffirm our belief John Paul II is the true pope on behalf of the Jeruselem."

OOC: Argh! Jeruselem, can you please get rid of your second delegate? Only one delegate per church! Thanks!

IC: "I'll note another vote to affirm." says the Emperor, as the scribe writes.

OOC: Argh! Jeruselem, can you please get rid of your second delegate? Only one delegate per church! Thanks!

IC: "I'll note another vote to affirm." says the Emperor, as the scribe writes.

I'm RPing for Jeruselem and Holy Latin Empire (my other nation!) ...

OOC: Argh! Jeruselem, can you please get rid of your second delegate? Only one delegate per church! Thanks!

IC: "I'll note another vote to affirm." says the Emperor, as the scribe writes.

I'm RPing for Jeruselem and Holy Latin Empire (my other nation!) ...

OOC: OK.

Aegeri was looking extremely irritated by what had been passing on. He had expected to have a decent discussion with his fellow believers, yet instead he found himself in a straight dogfight where Cardinals called each other instruments of the Devil. It was an old tactic in the Church, to call those that oppose your views worhsippers of Satan, and quite frankly, this particular way of attempting to gain support disgusted him, and he thought is was a very grave insult to the Church as a whole. Having remained silent during the ridiculous argument that had been going on before, he now did make a reply.

"I will and do not believe that a whole Council of Cardinals can be corrupted. Neither do I believe that the Pope, investigated thoroughly by both the Utharian Church itself and the Order of Battlemages on integrity and faith, is an instrument of Satan. And thirdly, I do NOT recognize anybody that uses physical violence in a religious council as a rational and thinking human, be that person with or against my beliefs."

Aegeri looks at each delegate one by one as his eyes scan the people in the conference. The look on his face is one of utter disapproval, and it can be clearly seen that he feels emberaced by what has happened minutes ago. Finally, he sighs heavily.

"The Utharian branche recognizes John Paul II as the legitimate and true pope. "

(ooc:Crikey, I missed a world of action here eh? *tries to catch up*)

Bishop Edgar Hampshand of Raysee was not going to be given much chance to collect his senses and settle into his role, he could see.

Thus far all he had said were hoarse whispers, first "Do my ears deceive me?" as Braganca spoke, and later "Do my eyes deceive me?" as the Roanian Cardinal appeared to physically strike him down. Neither comment was directed in any particular direction.

Now he wondered where Eastgate's church stood. They had sailed so far east as to have lost all contact with Rome somewhere short of pope 220.

At first Hampshand was appauled by Braganca's ravings. As the old fashioned Eastgater heard more- talk of tolerance for various heathen groups, and characters the barbarism of whom his isolation could only imagine- he began to wonder if the Schismatic States representative was in this refound world possessed of the only voice free of the corruption and decay of ages.

"Is it true.." He finally spoke up to inquire "..that Rome has given-up its resistance to heathen corruption?"

Hampshand had -though most of his countrymen would probably be horrified- come to the conclusion that New Eastgate had nothing to loose, and that excommunication could scarcely be worse than five centuries of isolation. His nation was currently on the brink of civil war as the three most civilised states balked at the decay in the two increasingly heathen states. Hampshand was far from being in any mind to accept the faithless world, as it appeared this current Pope should like him to.


(ooc:heh, I..hope it is not too difficult to make sense of New Eastgate's situation :? )

"Your Eminence's vote is noted." says the Emperor. "And I agree, violence must not again break out in this council! If anybody strikes another in this sacred place from this point on, they will expelled and their national church will be asked to send a different representative. So ordered!"

The Emperor bangs his gavel and the scribe notes Aegeri's vote.

"Quot homines, tot sententiae" Hampshand kept repeating to himself the New Eastgate national motto. But which of them can I accept?

"Does Your Grace wish to abstain from voting on this issue at this time?" the Emperor asks Hampshand.

Meanwhile runing extremely late, Archbishop Dornsi head of the Tordoran catholic church arrived at the Airport.

"Does Your Grace wish to abstain from voting on this issue at this time?" asks the Emperor of Hampshand.

OOC

You mean ...

"Does Your Grace wish to abstain from voting on this issue at this time?" asks the Emperor of Pantocratoria

:wink:

Mangunvijaya had watched the proceedings with mounting horror. As he stood, he wiped a tear from his eye. "The Tanah Burung Conference of Catholic Bishops affirms its faith in the Second Vatican Council, and especially the council's teachings on the collegiality of bishops. This is far more important to us than the question of who is Pope. And we hope that before we rush into excommunication, we will seek reconciliation with those of different views. Let us try to walk the path the Christ taught us, the path of peace, before we resort to Crusades."

"Does Your Grace wish to abstain from voting on this issue at this time?" asks the Emperor of Hampshand.

OOC

You mean ...

"Does Your Grace wish to abstain from voting on this issue at this time?" asks the Emperor of Pantocratoria

:wink:

OOC: No, I meant the Emperor asks the question of Hampshand (different way to phrase "the Emperor asks Hampshand"), but when I read it again I realised it could be read the other way to mean that I was Hampshand's Emperor! I'll reword it. Thanks! :oops:

"Your Grace's vote to affirm has been noted." says the Emperor.

OOC:Is it to late for my archbishop to come?

(ooc:'s okay, I understood ;) )

Hampshand kept glancing towards Braganca, hoping for some last minute words to convince him of the wider church's corruption and frailty, or else of that man's mistake.

Eventually and with apparent strain on his voice he agreed that aye, Pope John Paul II must be the true pontiff.

OOC:Is it to late for my archbishop to come?

OOC: Certainly not! Just pretend he is already there if you like.

The Emperor nods at Hampshand.

"Your Grace's vote has been noted." he says.

OOC: Can my bishop be there as well? Also, what about conflicting places? I think a nation called Jerusalem is there. However, I've done some RP'ing with Western Asia, who claims to have Israel, Jordan and some other places, and says his capital is the city of Jerusalem. Naturally, the two contradict each other, and my basic RP policy is to recognize one claim and ignore the others.

A thought came to me while I was typing this - I'll just recognize WA is the temporal government of Jerusalem et al, and think of Jerusalem's prelate as the head of the Catholic Church in Jerusalem. What do you think?

Anyway, Cardinal Theophilus (Theophilius Cardinal Sanghorn), the Archbishop of Syskeyiapolis and Primate of Syskeyia, is there. I might RP him later.

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

ooc:You have to be a bit more flexible than that. This is not RL earth, as is surely blatently obvious. There is more than one middle east. New Eastgate inhabits a continent which doesn't even exist, but surely covers Pacific waters also covered by x other fictional nations. I don't ignore any of them out of hand, or expect them to be considered mere spiritual or unofficial powers. I'm pretty sure your Bishop can just turn up.

OOC: We'd be more than happy to have the good Cardinal, just insert him as if he was already here. As for the issue of Western Asia and Jerusalem, the representative we have here speaks for the Latin Patriarch of Jeruselem, so I presume it is a different place from Western Asia's Jerusalem. Even if this spelling difference is unintentional, your solution seems workable to me - you're speaking to other clergy from the area, not to the civilian authorities after all. 8)

As one by one the other delegates voiced support for John Paul II, Braganca sat back, silently noting his fellow Cardinals' opinions. All the while he fingered the enormous polished ruby on his scepter, despondently gazing at the religious icons on the walls of the cavernous church. At times he chuckled bitterly to himself, at other times a sad look came upon his face and he crossed himself repeatedly, silently saying prayers to God asking for forgiveness for the earth's sinners.


“I would like to say that it grieves my heart to hear such strife and discord. But it grieves my spirit even more to hear such vile heresy. Pope John Paul II is the pope and he has been and remains God’s faithful servant. Rather than making war on our brother and sister Christians outside the Church – surely as much a sin as anything else I can imagine; isn’t murder prohibited in the Ten Commandments, or does His Eminence from the Schismatic States claim the authority to overturn the commandments! – we should be reaching out to our fellow Christians to do as much as we can together for the cause of Christ. For is it not our mission to convert the non-Christians to faith and to minister to the poor and needy? And can we not do that in common with all Christians? And, as I recall, our Lord commanded us to preach, teach and baptize all nations – he never mentioned anything about doing it at the point of the sword or under the fear of torture as the Schismatic States would have us do. So, I vote to recognize His Holiness John Paul II as pope indeed and to immediately excommunicate the heretical church of the Schismatic States, until such a time as that church repents its sins and seeks reunification.”


OOC: Damn, I missed the vote of Eastgate

After all the other delegates spoke Braganca rises: "First I must address the profound error of our colleague from Excalbia. It is not a sin to crusade against the non-believer and take his life. Sin is limited to man, for the passions of man are sinful. But when we crusade against the heathen, we do so not out of our hate or our love, but with the love of Christ. The crusade is not an instrument of humanity's whims; the holy crusade is the tool of God and His Kingdom. As such, the crusade and Inquisition are without sin.

"When God came to earth as the Son, and He gave us His Son, the Lord Christ commanded us to preach, teach, and baptize. The Apostles also taught us to protect the Lord's Church. The Lord and the Apostles, through example and through their words, taught us that the only way to protect and further the peaceful goals of God is to banish from our conscience and banish from the world Satan, who seeks to deceive man from the true path. The Muslims, the heretic Protestants, the Jews, the pagans, the secularists - they are the instruments and wicked hands of Satan, and we cannot tolerate the presence of the devil in the world.

"The current so-called 'Pope' has strayed from the vision of Christ. John Paul II tolerates the presence of Satan. He reached out to non-Christians not for the purpose of converting them, but to befriend them for the sake of human friendship. How dare the man put his personal human whims before the work that he does on behalf of Christ? The only way for John Paul II to come back into the faithful is if he rejects the heresy of religious tolerance outlined in Second Vatican.

"I implore you to reject John Paul II, reject religious toleration, reject the heresy of the Second Vatican, reject paganism, reject the Satanic cult of evolution, reject abortion, and reject secularism. We must go on a crusade to rid the world and conscience of these sins. With this I voice the unanimous opinion of the True Faithful: John Paul II has been tempted by Satan, and he has given in to temptation and thus has become the tool of the devil. He can no longer claim the mantel of the papacy; he no longer speaks with the authority of the Holy Ghost."

"I'll take that as a vote against affirmation then." says the Emperor. The scribe notes down accordingly. "I assure Your Eminence that this council will seek to address at least some of the concerns you mentioned."

Archbishop Dornsi head of the Tordoran catholic church, an extremely conservitive and known traditionalist even more so than the Teritoran church, rose and spoke. "John Paul the II is the true head of the church and I think the Cardinal from The Schismatic States needs a exerism, he is being tormented by demons to think the way he does."


OOC:The Tordoran church is so tradionalist that it looks like the Church of the 12 century.

The Emperor nods to the Archbishop.

"Your Grace's vote has also been noted." he says.

Archbishop Dornsi head of the Tordoran catholic church, an extremely conservitive and known traditionalist even more so than the Teritoran church, rose and spoke. "John Paul the II is the true head of the church and I think the Cardinal from The Schismatic States needs a exerism, he is being tormented by demons to think the way he does."


OOC:The Tordoran church is so tradionalist that it looks like the Church of the 12 century.

Braganca looks at Dornsi: "How do you reconcile John Paul's reformist secularist attitudes with the sacred traditions of the church?"

OOC: Schismatic States Church is traditionalist and looks much like the 16th century Catholic Church, at the height of the Counter-reformation and Spanish Inquisition.

(Heh, New Eastgate lost all contact with the outside world five hundred years ago, so one can't really be too traditional for Hampshand ;) )

Dornsi spoke. "Simple, becuase he is the pope. I may not agree with the actions of the popes that came before him but besides the fact he is an conservative. The Pope is the bridge between heaven and earth, he is the Heir of Peter and not even the devil himself could corrupt the Pope and John Paul the II is in very sense of the word the true pope by the laws and traditions of the church."

Dornsi spoke. "Simple, becuase he is the pope. I may not agree with the actions of the popes that came before him but besides the fact he is an conservative. The Pope is the bridge between heaven and earth, he is the Heir of Peter and not even the devil himself could corrupt the Pope and John Paul the II is in very sense of the word the true pope by the laws and traditions of the church."

Replies Braganca: "John Paul is not a conservative. He is a secularist-humanist and seeks to pollute the timeless word of God with the corrupted reasoning of man. How can you agree with him if his opinions are not even like that of the traditionalist Tordorian Catholics?

John Paul is under the influence of the devil. A true Pope cannot be corrupted by the devil, therefore John Paul is not the Pope."

Dornsi spoke. "By my standards you are a liberal, because you and your church's opinions agree with mines does that make you under the influnce of the devil? The Teritorans are also Traditionalistic and conservative and they aslo see that John Paul II is the pope and calling him secularist-humanist is the stupidist thing I have ever heard. The only one who seems to be under the influnce of devils are you. He is the pope by all traditions and sacred laws and tenents of the church therefore he could not be under the influince, if he was he would have been struck dead by god for steping foot on the most sacred places of Christiandom."

Dornsi spoke. "By my standards you are a liberal, because you and your church's opinions agree with mines does that make you under the influnce of the devil?
"No because we do not agree that John Paul is a man of God. We are not deceived by the devil into thinking that the secularist John Paul is Pope."

The Teritorans are also Traditionalistic and conservative and they aslo see that John Paul II is the pope and calling him secularist-humanist is the stupidist thing I have ever heard. The only one who seems to be under the influnce of devils are you. He is the pope by all traditions and sacred laws and tenents of the church therefore he could not be under the influince, if he was he would have been struck dead by god for steping foot on the most sacred places of Christiandom."
"This is a test of our faith and devotion to the laws and traditions of the Church. Satan has put an anti-Pope on the throne of St. Peter, and if we blindly follow the deceptions of Satan without regard for our faith in Christ, we would not be not truly Christian - we would be hellbound. We will pass the test of our faith only if we reject the secularist-modernist babble of John Paul and the Second Vatican."

"Cardinal Braganca, your words confuse me. It seeems as if you think those of different religion are somehow less than we are, as if they are not human in the degree we are. Regardless of what quotes from which books you might have learned by heart, it is my personal and solid faith that all homo sapiens are created equally under the eye of God. And I also belief that the major religions of this world are all different variants of the same faith in one God, or in different facets of his existence.

And for each biblical text that you can bring here that tells man to eradicate the heathens, I can show you one that tells us to love our neighbours, regardless of their faith, culture or past. Time after time again, it has been proven the bible can be read in two interpretations. The first is the Crusader approach: the school of thought arguing that all non-Catholics need to be either converted or eradicated. The second school is the Harmony approach, arguing that all will be allright in time, as long as we have patient and live a life of virtue.

Now, and you may call me a coward for this, I don't care, but I belief the second approach to be the correct one. Of course, violence is inevitable in some situations. But it should not be actively sought. The Catholic Church is not an institution of war! We are a faith of peace and harmony, of unity with God himself. And the blood of innocents, the death of women and children just for belonging to a different faith can not be the will of God!

Your practices of intolerance are unacceptable! Why is it that you feel superiour to other human beings? Where did you get the audacity to consider yourself better than any other man or woman? All the values of compassion, aid and contemplation seem absent in you. Sadly, it seems that power still corrupts, even in faith."

After all the other delegates spoke Braganca rises: "First I must address the profound error of our colleague from Excalbia. It is not a sin to crusade against the non-believer and take his life. Sin is limited to man, for the passions of man are sinful. But when we crusade against the heathen, we do so not out of our hate or our love, but with the love of Christ. The crusade is not an instrument of humanity's whims; the holy crusade is the tool of God and His Kingdom. As such, the crusade and Inquisition are without sin.

Cardinal Theophilius rises. "I now must address my separated bretheren Braganca. Did not the Lord Himself say I do not wish the death of my enemy, but that he may turn from his way and live and did He not also cry on the Cross, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing? As my Pantocratorian bretheren have remarked on a recent foreign trip, while the Crusade's primary motive was just - the reclaiming of the Holy Land from the Muslims- the way in which is was implemented was evil. Not that we can condemn the Crusades outright - our nation would not be Catholic, or would not have be so for many centuries, if not Good King John's boat had not taken a wrong turn en route to the Third Crusade (OOC: Look at my Factbook entry (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78282) for the story.)- but it is one thing to kill a Muslim soldier in combat while fighting a war to protect Christians, and another to slay an innocent Muslim who has done nothing put believe in the faith he has grown up with. Another thing, the Inquisiton. While the my own opinion on the Inquisition during the Catholic Reformation (now replaced by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) is not quite formed, is it right for me to assume you refer to infamous Spanish Inqusition, or similar Inquisitions thereof. I, the latter case, let me be blunt: FORCED CONVERSION EQUALS NOTHING MORE THAN FALSE CONVERTS.

You see the Spanish Inquisition was formed after Ferdinand and Isabella told all Muslims and Jews to become Catholic or leave the country. While it is true that some Muslims and Jews, both before and during the re-Christianization of Span, did convert because they sincerely believed the Catholic faith to be the truth, others feigned conversion merely because they did not desire death or exile. As a result of these false converts, the Inquisition was set up to root out the secret apostates- do you not remember St. Teresa of Avila's grandparents being persecuted because they were converts? (OOC:I know they were- not sure whether they were either Muslim or Jew- probably Jewish)

Also, we must consider what such things as the Crusades and the Inquisition have on potential converts? Let us say there is a Muslim, living in a Muslim land. He has grown up with Islam and knows nothing about Christianity except what he has heard from the Muslims around him. mong those things he has learned is how the Crusaders killed not just Muslim men, but women and children as well as they sacked Jerusalem, besieged Damascus, and captured Tyre. This Muslim also may have learned that thes kings of Spain forced all Muslims to convert to Christianty or die. Events such as these may cause the Muslim to develop a hate for the Christian faith, so that he may be deeply prejudiced against it by the time he first comes in contact with a Christian. Will he be well disposed to convert? I do not think so."

"When God came to earth as the Son, and He gave us His Son, the Lord Christ commanded us to preach, teach, and baptize. The Apostles also taught us to protect the Lord's Church. The Lord and the Apostles, through example and through their words, taught us that the only way to protect and further the peaceful goals of God is to banish from our conscience and banish from the world Satan, who seeks to deceive man from the true path. The Muslims, the heretic Protestants, the Jews, the pagans, the secularists - they are the instruments and wicked hands of Satan, and we cannot tolerate the presence of the devil in the world.

"Again, I must repeat Our Lord's words: Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they are doing. While many of these Prostestants, pagans, Jews, and secularists may intentionally or unintentionally the instruments of Satan by their errors, most of try to follow God as much as their conscience knows about them. Remember, people are right in what the affirm, and wrong in what they deny. The groups you mention, while most, if not all, are at variance with the Catholic faith, nonetheless they are 'men of good will' who are attempting to do the best they can. Are the right when the Catholic Church says they are wrong? I think not. But it is not sin to help them when they are doing things that are truly good.

Also, need I mentioned that St. Augustine's road to conversion to Christianity jump-started when he read a passage from no one other than the pagan Cicero?"

"The current so-called 'Pope' has strayed from the vision of Christ. John Paul II tolerates the presence of Satan. He reached out to non-Christians not for the purpose of converting them, but to befriend them for the sake of human friendship. How dare the man put his personal human whims before the work that he does on behalf of Christ? The only way for John Paul II to come back into the faithful is if he rejects the heresy of religious tolerance outlined in Second Vatican.

Are you sure the Pope does not desire the conversion of all? In response to my seperated brother's comments that the Pope does not reach out to conversion, I must note that in pluralist societies such as the United States of America, many non-Christians are actually turned off from Christianity by over-zealous Christians trying to convert them. I believe His Holiness, John Paul II, does want his non-Catholic friends to embrace the Catholic faith, however his tactic is not to bring to to Catholicism, but to lead them to the truth, which is naturally contained in the Catholic faith."

"I implore you to reject John Paul II, reject religious toleration, reject the heresy of the Second Vatican, reject paganism, reject the Satanic cult of evolution, reject abortion, and reject secularism. We must go on a crusade to rid the world and conscience of these sins. With this I voice the unanimous opinion of the True Faithful: John Paul II has been tempted by Satan, and he has given in to temptation and thus has become the tool of the devil. He can no longer claim the mantel of the papacy; he no longer speaks with the authority of the Holy Ghost."

"Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia. We reject paganism, abortion and secularism, however we willingly embrace John Paul II as the divinely chosen successor of Saint Peter and the Second Vatican Council as valid, dogmatic and binding on the conscience. We also accept religious toleration on the grounds of Dignitatis Humanae and the fact that forced conversion produces false converts.

Sepaking of toleration, I must add that the Emperor of Pantocratoria has been fairly tolerant in allowing schismatics such as you into the country, for if schismatics Catholics like you had tried to enter Syskeyia, you most assuredly would have been arrested and thrown into prison.

That is all I have to say for now. Thank you."

The Cardinal then sits down in his seat.

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

Dornsi spoke. "The Crusades were wars of defense, to recover the holy land, drive the moors from spain, to stop the Pagans of the baltic states, to defend agaist dangerious Heretacy, They were not wars of agression or conversion. The Crusaders had no hatred that drove them only faith, they were holy wars to defend the faith and the christanity's holy places. Anyone calling for a crusade of agression is an insult to those holy warriors and to god."

Aegeri replied once again, with strong voice, standing firmly and looking his opponent directly in the eye:

"I must agree with my honored collegue Cardinal Theophilius here. Your intentions are the easy way out. What challenge do we mortals have left when we eradicate all so-called heathens and then sit on our lazy behinds in the knowledge that we could not even accomplish something simple as respecting each other? Your ways are the ways of bloodlust and intolerance, and I refuse to share your vision in any kind of way!"

Dornsi spoke. "The Crusades were wars of defense, to recover the holy land, drive the moors from spain, to stop the Pagans of the baltic states, to defend agaist dangerious Heretacy, They were not wars of agression or conversion. The Crusaders had no hatred that drove them only faith, they were holy wars to defend the faith and the christanity's holy places. Anyone calling for a crusade of agression is an insult to those holy warriors and to god."

Says Braganca, "I agree with Dornsi. The Crusades were the tools of God to destroy those who seek the plague the Body of Christ. Crusaders' work was done with love, the eternal and infinite love of the Lord Christ. As such, when a mortal undergoes a Crusade, he is touched by the perfection of the Lord, and is absolved from all sins.

I implore the Council to revive the past unity of the Church - as at Clermont and Trent, the Church must once again rise to defend those who defile Christianity. A Crusade must be undertaken to convert or eradicate those who reject Christ and His Scripture."

"The Utharian Catholic Church refuses to aid in any way such a proposal, be it in thought or action. We are not prepared to shed the blood of our young women and men for the purpose of serving your bloodlust. My esteemed collegues and myself have repeatedly stated why the Catholic church should not be a church of violence. You, on the other hand, have failed to present us with anything beyond simple and easy stereotypes and warmongering credo's."

Vorn spoke. "You twist Dornsi's words, Braganca. As he said the Crusades were not wars of agression or to convert nonchristians. They were to defend Christiandom and protect Christianities holy places. This false crusade you call for is an insult to god and the holy warrors that went on the crusades, it is a war of agression you call for, not a crusade."

A new figure walks into the room in a dark cloak, but wearing a considerate gaze.

"To judge the crusades as either good or evil in entirety is a mistake. If it was God's will to cleanse the holy land, I doubt that his will was to shed blood. In effect the "holy wars" were driven by men that had little other choice, and I find it rare that ones actions that consist of violence can ever be pure. It is like the hunt for terrorists in the middle east. Most of those people are probably not evil, but misled by someone who is. Unfortunately, in order to preserve the safety of a nation, it must sometimes react with bloodshed. The crusades, I doubt, are not much different, and if they were indeed God's will I believe more good would have come out of them. What has been gained from the bloodshed of the crusades, I ask, aside from more bloodshed?"

"Cardinal Braganca, your words confuse me. It seeems as if you think those of different religion are somehow less than we are, as if they are not human in the degree we are. Regardless of what quotes from which books you might have learned by heart, it is my personal and solid faith that all homo sapiens are created equally under the eye of God.
"All men will be judged with the same standards before the eyes of God no matter what their birth. All men, no matter what their origins, have the potential to become men of God. But God hates evil and loves good. Therefore not all souls are acceptable before the eyes of God. God will accept those who love Him and hate those who willingly reject Him and His Word. "

And for each biblical text that you can bring here that tells man to eradicate the heathens, I can show you one that tells us to love our neighbours, regardless of their faith, culture or past. Time after time again, it has been proven the bible can be read in two interpretations. The first is the Crusader approach: the school of thought arguing that all non-Catholics need to be either converted or eradicated. The second school is the Harmony approach, arguing that all will be allright in time, as long as we have patient and live a life of virtue.
Christ called upon us to honor Him and the Apostles called upon us to honor His Church. The only way to honor and protect Christianity is to rid the world of filth.

Your practices of intolerance are unacceptable! Why is it that you feel superiour to other human beings? Where did you get the audacity to consider yourself better than any other man or woman? All the values of compassion, aid and contemplation seem absent in you. Sadly, it seems that power still corrupts, even in faith."
"No one is inherently superior to anyone. But when one willingly accepts the love of Christ and does good works in His name, that person automatically has a greater soul than the non-believer. The destruction of a heretic is an act of supreme compassion, in the name of God and His love. I so love the heretic that I am willing to follow God's command and destroy the heretic in order to prevent the devil from further corrupting his soul."

And I also belief that the major religions of this world are all different variants of the same faith in one God, or in different facets of his existence.
"Blasphemer! How dare you deny the supremacy of the Word of God in the Holy Scriptures and the Universal Church? Only Christianity is true. I call upon the Council to go on a holy crusade to rid the Body of Christ of this polytheist-pagan nation, The Vortex Corporation."

I must also add that eradication of non-christians will only result in a greater spread of atheism. People must be called to God, or else they will never know him. Our job of servants of christ is to spread the good word through cleanliness of heart and to live by example. If you read the bible you might notice that not once did the apostles strike a physical blow against pagans.
When they ventured to pagan countries, or were thrown into their own martyrdoms they responded like Jesus did, with acceptance, continuing into death to preach christ in hopes that perhaps their example might be followed. I have seen too many atheists shun christianity in general because they only comprehended the mistakes of christians. Look at how many wars have been justified in the name of God. What did any of them gain?

Vorn spoke. "You twist Dornsi's words, Braganca. As he said the Crusades were not wars of agression or to convert nonchristians. They were to defend Christiandom and protect Christianities holy places. This false crusade you call for is an insult to god and the holy warrors that went on the crusades, it is a war of agression you call for, not a crusade."

Replies Braganca, "Dornsi spoke of the crusade against the heathens in the Baltic. That war was not a defensive measure and instead was a war of aggression. That war aimed at converting nonChristians into Christians. But God does not believe that aggression is evil. Aggression, like killing, is a positive good if done for the purpose of bringing more souls into the Church or for the purpose of ridding the world of those who accept Satan."

Vorn shook his head. "That was a defenive war in nature as well. They were threatening Northen Christiandom. Christiandom does not wage offensive wars, we are not Muslim Infidels who convert by the sword. Christanity is a defensive not offensive reglion and as such we do not wage offensive wars. So stop acting like some muslim infidel."

Schismatic states, are you proposing that only Christians are worthy of Heaven? I cannot judge God, but it is my knowledge that as long as someone worships truth and justice, and holds to a holy way of life they will learn to know God. I refuse to accept that someone like Ghandi would be thrown into the pit, after all look how his life in many ways modeled christ. My point is, if religion is confined to one faith, does that mean that only one christian faith will lead to heaven?

You might be amazed to discover that almost every culture has an archetypal story of a great flood that cleansed the earth, amongst other stories. Often enough, however unfortunate, christian faiths have been less honerable than pagan ones. Going back to Ghandi, he had a very good quote: "I like you Christ, but I don't much care for you christians." I think we all have something we can learn from one another. God's name is "Lord," and perhaps he meant by this that his children were all that worshipped a loving God, which they called Lord.

FORCED CONVERSION EQUALS NOTHING MORE THAN FALSE CONVERTS.
"Then if the false converts persist in rejecting God and accepting Satan, we must liberate their souls from the deception of the devil and destroy them."

Also, we must consider what such things as the Crusades and the Inquisition have on potential converts? Let us say there is a Muslim, living in a Muslim land. He has grown up with Islam and knows nothing about Christianity except what he has heard from the Muslims around him. mong those things he has learned is how the Crusaders killed not just Muslim men, but women and children as well as they sacked Jerusalem, besieged Damascus, and captured Tyre. This Muslim also may have learned that thes kings of Spain forced all Muslims to convert to Christianty or die. Events such as these may cause the Muslim to develop a hate for the Christian faith, so that he may be deeply prejudiced against it by the time he first comes in contact with a Christian. Will he be well disposed to convert? I do not think so."
"To pardon the un-converted is the same as tolerating the presence of Satan - a sinful thing. And we cannot do sinful things for the purpose of converting more people. The ends never justify the means. To do the wrong thing for the right reasons is as sinful as having evil intentions."

Schismatic states, are you proposing that only Christians are worthy of Heaven? I cannot judge God, but it is my knowledge that as long as someone worships truth and justice, and holds to a holy way of life they will learn to know God. I refuse to accept that someone like Ghandi would be thrown into the pit, after all look how his life in many ways modeled christ. My point is, if religion is confined to one faith, does that mean that only one christian faith will lead to heaven?

"To enter Heaven, not only must we do good works, we must also accept the Word of God embodied in the Bible and the Church. All other beliefs condemn their believers to the pits. However, a noble pagan like Ghandi is not consigned to the burning pits of hell but the gloomy pits of purgatory for eternity."

OOC: And this is Braganca only, not Schismatic States

Vorn shook his head. "That was a defenive war in nature as well. They were threatening Northen Christiandom. Christiandom does not wage offensive wars, we are not Muslim Infidels who convert by the sword. Christanity is a defensive not offensive reglion and as such we do not wage offensive wars. So stop acting like some muslim infidel."

"The war's aim was to convert the heathen tribes of northern Europe. Before the honorable Crusaders entered the Baltic, none of the Baltic peoples were Christian. After the Crusaders left, the entire Baltic population was solidly part of the Catholic Communion."

Bishop Robert Cardinal Reynolds of Senoj will attend.

"Then if the false converts persist in rejecting God and accepting Satan, we must liberate their souls from the deception of the devil and destroy them."

What are you suggesting? That we destroy their souls? I believe that is impossible, for only God can do that, and He does not, but rather damns those who have rejected Him into Hell.

"To pardon the un-converted is the same as tolerating the presence of Satan - a sinful thing.

I do not judge someone's soul, only the evil of an act. Culpability does involve knowing the truth about the good of evil of such a thing. He does not know that rejecting Christianity is evil, therefore he is not morally culpable, although rejecting Christianity is objectively wrong.

And we cannot do sinful things for the purpose of converting more people. The ends never justify the means. To do the wrong thing for the right reasons is as sinful as having evil intentions."

Sinful things such as, say, forcing people to lie rather than be sincere about their lack of Christianity, or slaughter women and children for the sole fact that they practice the only religion they have ever known?

Tell me, Braganca, have you ever read the works of Bartolome de las Casas? He was a Dominican priest who, among other things, worked as a missionary in Spanish America. Let me quote some of his works here

When tied to the stake, the cacique Hatuey was told by a Franciscan friar who was present, an artless rascal, something about the God of the Christians and of the articles of the Faith. And he was told what he could do in the brief time that remained of him, in order to be saved and go to Heaven. The cacique, who had never heard any of this before, and was told he would go to Inferno where, if he did not adopt the Christian Faith, he would suffer eternal torment, asked the Franciscan friar if Christians all went to Heaven. When told that they did he said he would prefer to go to Hell. Such is the fame and honor that God and our Faith have earned through the Christians who have gone out to the Indies.
Militants mimic Mohammed, clearly the falsest prophet of them all… those who wage war to subdue infidels as a prior condition for preaching the faith… These Christians are a match, are more than a match for Mohammed and Mohammedans in savagery, in violence, in brutality, in criminal behavior!

I think the Spaniard more than well makes my case.

In Christ,

Theophilius Cardinal Sanghorn
Archbishop of Syskeyiapolis
Primate of Syskeyia

What are you suggesting? That we destroy their souls? I believe that is impossible, for only God can do that, and He does not, but rather damns those who have rejected Him into Hell.


"I apologize for making myself unclear. I intended to mean that we liberate the heretic's soul by destroying his human body - we must kill him."

Sinful things such as, say, forcing people to lie rather than be sincere about their lack of Christianity, or slaughter women and children for the sole fact that they practice the only religion they have ever known?
"If they do not know of Christianity, then they are blameless. But at death the highest they can reach is Purgatory. But we wish for them to get into Heaven, and thus we must educate them about Christianity. Then, if they still refuse to convert, we must destroy them for they are the instruments of Satan."

Tell me, Braganca, have you ever read the works of Bartolome de las Casas? He was a Dominican priest who, among other things, worked as a missionary in Spanish America. Let me quote some of his works here
"The conquistadores in their rampage in Spanish America looked not to save souls - their real motive was gold. If the Spaniards did not ransack the native villages looking for gold but instead came to America with noble and pure motives of Christianity, the Indians would have gladly joined the faith. Again, the corruptions and sinful desires of man trumped the wishes of God."

Vorn shook his head. "That was a defenive war in nature as well. They were threatening Northen Christiandom. Christiandom does not wage offensive wars, we are not Muslim Infidels who convert by the sword. Christanity is a defensive not offensive reglion and as such we do not wage offensive wars. So stop acting like some muslim infidel."

"The war's aim was to convert the heathen tribes of northern Europe. Before the honorable Crusaders entered the Baltic, none of the Baltic peoples were Christian. After the Crusaders left, the entire Baltic population was solidly part of the Catholic Communion."

"Crusades are not wars of agression and what you preach would have gotten you burned at the stake and those Baltic peoples were waging war agaist christians so it was indeed defensive."

Vorn shook his head. "That was a defenive war in nature as well. They were threatening Northen Christiandom. Christiandom does not wage offensive wars, we are not Muslim Infidels who convert by the sword. Christanity is a defensive not offensive reglion and as such we do not wage offensive wars. So stop acting like some muslim infidel."

"The war's aim was to convert the heathen tribes of northern Europe. Before the honorable Crusaders entered the Baltic, none of the Baltic peoples were Christian. After the Crusaders left, the entire Baltic population was solidly part of the Catholic Communion."

"Crusades are not wars of agression and what you preach would have gotten you burned at the stake and those Baltic peoples were waging war agaist christians so it was indeed defensive."

"Crusades are wars intended to further the glory of God. They are tools of the Lord. They can be either offensive or defensive. A war of aggression is not automatically evil. Any war that is fought to protect and advance the Church, then it is good in the eyes of God."

OOC: The Baltic Crusade was fought by the Teutonic Knights to convert the heathen Balts, Slavs, and unconverted Germans...


the Order of the Swordbrothers was specifically founded to provide a permanent military presence in the Baltics to reinforce the “missionary work” of converting of the population by force'

This is from http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/crusades.htm

Cardinal Walsh returns to the Council. He is pale and his vestments are obviously a little dirty. He does his best to straighten them and takes his seat. He takes a long drink of water and rises. “Your Majesty, if I may? There is obviously much discussion about what we are or not commanded to do. But let me call everyone’s attention to the Gospels themselves. Our Lord taught by example and by kindness. The only people He ever condemned were the religious leaders of His day. Not because they were Jews, for He Himself was a Jew. No, He spoke against them because they kept the people from the truth. They manipulated the laws of God for their own advantage and judged the people without mercy. But, at the same time, Jesus ate with sinners. He was even called a friend to sinners. I also think it important to note that He commanded His apostles to win converts by teaching and healing. And His instruction with regard to those who would reject the Gospel? To leave them alone. To shake the dirt from their sandals and leave them to God. He never said to convert them at the point of a sword or to kill them to free their souls!”

“As for me, I do believe that only those who embrace Christ receive the Grace of salvation. However, who has received Christ? I dare not make that judgment. That is God’s alone. If a man says that the Pope is not the Vicar the Christ, that the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Christ, that man is certainly not a Catholic, as I understand the term. But may he be a Christian? If he claims to follow Christ and can confess the fundamental truths of the faith – as in the Apostle’s Creed for instance, then who am I to say that he is not a Christian.”

“As for non-Christians, I believe they must be converted and would tell them so plainly and humbly. But are they inferior? Are they to be treated as an enemy? Are they to be judged and condemned by us? God forbid it! They are in God’s hands, not ours. Our only enemy is Satan and his evil lies. Those who may be deceived by Satan need our help, not our condemnation.”

Frazer stood up. "Many of you have met Cardinal Richelieu. Tell me, would you consider him a good man?"

Embarrased muttering came from the crowd, except from the good Cardinal's supporters.

"I see. And yet, he is. He believes in the scriptures implicitly. He serves the lord as he sees fit. Perhaps we have looked at the other religions too strictly. There is only one god. Perhaps the Jews and Moslems serve him in different ways to us. But, even that aside, we are being too harsh on one people. Our Co-Religionists, who, while Christian, are not members of this church. We must heal the rifts within this Church, bring the Orthodox back to the fold, or, as they would have it, return to them, and then work on the Protestants. Perhaps that is how the Kingdom will be built."

Frazer stood up. "Many of you have met Cardinal Richelieu. Tell me, would you consider him a good man?"

Embarrased muttering came from the crowd, except from the good Cardinal's supporters.

"I see. And yet, he is. He believes in the scriptures implicitly. He serves the lord as he sees fit. Perhaps we have looked at the other religions too strictly. There is only one god. Perhaps the Jews and Moslems serve him in different ways to us. But, even that aside, we are being too harsh on one people. Our Co-Religionists, who, while Christian, are not members of this church. We must heal the rifts within this Church, bring the Orthodox back to the fold, or, as they would have it, return to them, and then work on the Protestants. Perhaps that is how the Kingdom will be built."

OOC: Damn this server.

Vorn shook his head. "That was a defenive war in nature as well. They were threatening Northen Christiandom. Christiandom does not wage offensive wars, we are not Muslim Infidels who convert by the sword. Christanity is a defensive not offensive reglion and as such we do not wage offensive wars. So stop acting like some muslim infidel."

"The war's aim was to convert the heathen tribes of northern Europe. Before the honorable Crusaders entered the Baltic, none of the Baltic peoples were Christian. After the Crusaders left, the entire Baltic population was solidly part of the Catholic Communion."

"Crusades are not wars of agression and what you preach would have gotten you burned at the stake and those Baltic peoples were waging war agaist christians so it was indeed defensive."

"Crusades are wars intended to further the glory of God. They are tools of the Lord. They can be either offensive or defensive. A war of aggression is not automatically evil. Any war that is fought to protect and advance the Church, then it is good in the eyes of God."

OOC: The Baltic Crusade was fought by the Teutonic Knights to convert the heathen Balts, Slavs, and unconverted Germans...


the Order of the Swordbrothers was specifically founded to provide a permanent military presence in the Baltics to reinforce the “missionary work” of converting of the population by force'

This is from http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/crusades.htm

OOC: Who were waring with christian germans. The Crusades were concidered Defensive holy war, Christians did not wage wars of agression but fought agaist encroaching enemies expecally the muslims on formally christian lands as the Christan reglion was one seen as a defensive reglion.

IC: "The crusades were fought agaist the enemies of Christiandom who were waging war agaist Christiandom, like the pagans of the Baltic region, to the Schismatic russians, to the muslims encroaching and over runing formally christian lands. They were like it has been stated, defensive wars in the end to protect christians and christian lands from Infidels and heretics waging war agaist Christians. The nature of christiandom is defensive not offensinve."

OOC: Who were waring with christian germans. The Crusades were concidered Defensive holy war, Christians did not wage wars of agression but fought agaist encroaching enemies expecally the muslims on formally christian lands as the Christan reglion was one seen as a defensive reglion.

OOC: The Balts did not occupy traditionally Christian lands, and they never waged war against the Christians. If you read the selection, it says that hostilities were initiated by the Bishop of Holstein. The explicit purpose of the Bishop's crusade was to force the Balts into becoming Christian.


IC: "The crusades were fought agaist the enemies of Christiandom who were waging war agaist Christiandom, like the pagans of the Baltic region, to the Schismatic russians, to the muslims encroaching and over runing formally christian lands. They were like it has been stated, defensive wars in the end to protect christians and christian lands from Infidels and heretics waging war agaist Christians. The nature of christiandom is defensive not offensinve."

"The nature of Christianity must be one of aggressive and forceful action. We must eradicate heresy and blasphemy not only within our own borders but also in the entire world. To be passive in this struggle is to tolerate the presence of Satan."

But, at the same time, Jesus ate with sinners. He was even called a friend to sinners.
"The Lord Jesus ate with sinners in order to teach them about their wicked ways. He befriended them in order to convert them into the true path.

John Paul II has eaten with the worst sinners, heretics, and blasphemers in the world - Muslim clerics, Jewish rabbis, Protestants, Buddhists, secularists - not for the purpose of converting them into Christianity. He befriended them for the sake of friendship, not for the sake of opening the doors of Heaven through Christianity. Thus, John Paul has put his personal desires before his duty to God."

If he claims to follow Christ and can confess the fundamental truths of the faith – as in the Apostle’s Creed for instance, then who am I to say that he is not a Christian.”
"How can you call a Protestant, who rejects wholesale entire sections of the Word of God, a Christian?"

“As for non-Christians, I believe they must be converted and would tell them so plainly and humbly. But are they inferior? Are they to be treated as an enemy? Are they to be judged and condemned by us? God forbid it! They are in God’s hands, not ours. Our only enemy is Satan and his evil lies. Those who may be deceived by Satan need our help, not our condemnation.”
"We shall help them and try to convert them and show them the true path to Heaven. If they still do not accept Christ, we must eradicate them in order to expunge this world of Satan."

"Your Eminences..." says the Emperor looking at the two Cardinals from the Schismatic States. "One of you will have to leave. Each national church is permitted only one representative."

"Your claim that Satan elected John Paul II is patently false, Your Eminence." says Cardinal Conomos indignantly. "Even if a Pope's election was engineered by some outside force, once he becomes Pope, he is incapable of making doctrinal errors! The Bishop of Rome is infallible on such matters. Even if Satan himself managed to get his own bishop elected as Pontiff, that Pope would be as legitimate and valid as any other, and he would reign in the Holy Spirit! Or do you also deny the doctrine of Papal infallibility, brother?"

Gabarelli bows deeply to the Emperor, "You Majesty Basileus, I shall defer to my superior Braganca." With an unhappy look on his face, he realizes that his conciliatory agenda will not be prevail upon the elder Cardinal, and he takes his leave.

Braganca rises to address the Council: "Papal Infallibility is indeed the Will of God. But the question should be, is John Paul II actually the Pope? This may seem to some of you a ridiculous question, but I shall attempt to clarify the answer.

Papal infallibility states that the Holy Spirit speaks with authority directly through the Pope; the Holy Spirit is not merely represented by the Pope.

However Satan speaks through the John Paul; this fact can only indicate that the Holy Spirit does not speak through the John Paul since death and the Lord Christ cannot mix. And therefore because the very nature of the Pope implies that the Bishop of Rome speaks with the authority of the Holy Ghost, John Paul II is not actually the Pope since he does not speak with the authority of the Holy Ghost. He speaks with the deception of Satan."

OOC:I go by what I got from the Oxford history of the crusades. The troubles started went the saxons and wenns went started fighting even before the Tunonic order formed.

"No we must defend Christiandom agaist attackers, defend the holy lands, and deal with Heretics but those are all defensive, we do not and such not wage agressive wars, we should covert by example."

OOC:I go by what I got from the Oxford history of the crusades. The troubles started went the saxons and wenns went started fighting even before the Tunonic order formed.

OOC: The Saxons warred against Christianity but were completely converted and pacified by Charlemagne in the 800s. For 400 years after that, there was relative peace in the east.

In the 12th and 13th centuries Christians became interested in a crusade against the Balts that had nothing to do with the earlier troubles with the Saxons, and this new crusade also did not result from Baltic aggression against Christian Germany.

"No we must defend Christiandom agaist attackers, defend the holy lands, and deal with Heretics but those are all defensive, we do not and such not wage agressive wars, we should covert by example."
Braganca replies, "A non-believer who has never heard about Christ must be first peacefully taught the ways of Christianity. However, the moment he learns about the love of the Lord, he has no excuse not to convert. If he refuses to convert, that means he willfully denies the Lord. He is just as bad as a heretic, and must be eradicated."

Syskeyia Wrote:

What are you suggesting? That we destroy their souls? I believe that is impossible, for only God can do that, and He does not, but rather damns those who have rejected Him into Hell.


Thank you Syskeyia, that was one of the things I was trying to put into words. I believe that salvation resides on knowing God, and not quivering away from his love at death. Sin, in essence is saying no to God, but at least from what i have learned we cannot make that judgement that anyone is in hell. I think that purgatory is the point where you make that decision. So if you say yes, you enter God's kingdom becuase just like Jesus's parable with the rich man and the contrast to the camel fitting through the eye of a needle, everything is possible for God, so slavation consists of saying "yes" to God.
Whether or not that yes must occur during life, or maybe that yes is merely baptism, and the will to continue that yes, I don't know. Maybe a person who has done terrible things can still say yes even after death, and purgatory is where they have to learn to trust god.
As for pagans, they don't know God, so obviously it would be hard for them to say yes because God is so powerful and magnificent that they may turn away.
Yet again we can only speculate, unless if someone knows more about this subject than I do. So I think what we must do is simply follow the bible and the model Jesus has set for us. Jesus never killed, so I see no way to justify murder unless in self defense. Please correct me if I am wrong

Braganca replies, "A non-believer who has never heard about Christ must be first peacefully taught the ways of Christianity. However, the moment he learns about the love of the Lord, he has no excuse not to convert. If he refuses to convert, that means he willfully denies the Lord. He is just as bad as a heretic, and must be eradicated."[/quote]



Many people spend their whole lives rejecting God. Fortunately old age amongst other things makes them hungry for something more, and they turn to God in the end. If they had been slain, they would have never had this chance learn what god's love really was.

Although I agree that someone who knows God, and rejects him commits a mortal sin, the point where this occurs cannot be judged by us. I have learned the goodness of God's love, and would be a fool to reject it because of all the things he has shown me in my life. A pagan who hears "god loves you," and rejects it responds out of fear and mistrust of the people giving him the message. They are not truly rejecting God's love because they don't truly know what it means. Then again, maybe I am making a judgement that I should not.

OOC:I go by what I got from the Oxford history of the crusades. The troubles started went the saxons and wenns went started fighting even before the Tunonic order formed.

OOC: The Saxons warred against Christianity but were completely converted and pacified by Charlemagne in the 800s. For 400 years after that, there was relative peace in the east.

In the 12th and 13th centuries Christians became interested in a crusade against the Balts that had nothing to do with the earlier troubles with the Saxons, and this new crusade also did not result from Baltic aggression against Christian Germany.

"No we must defend Christiandom agaist attackers, defend the holy lands, and deal with Heretics but those are all defensive, we do not and such not wage agressive wars, we should covert by example."
Braganca replies, "A non-believer who has never heard about Christ must be first peacefully taught the ways of Christianity. However, the moment he learns about the love of the Lord, he has no excuse not to convert. If he refuses to convert, that means he willfully denies the Lord. He is just as bad as a heretic, and must be eradicated."

Vorn replied venmently. "No, that is wrong, evil and most uncatholic. Your as bad as those Protestant funimentalists to belive such a thing."

The Rev. Mr. Bragança does sound like a Protestant fundamentalist, yes.

Cardinal Brown could not stand the jibes against the Crusades any longer while The Schismatic States constantly insulted his nations name.

He stood up and impeached the others to maintain reason "Cardinals, please do cease this discussion about the Crusades. Our forefathers shed blood to recover the Holy Lands from the Moslem infidels and this is the foundation of our nation. Christians hold the Holy Lands and we do not want the name of our nation to slurred so blatantly. History cannot be undone and we must look forward while learning from our mistakes. We do admit attrocities against Jews, Moslems and even fellow Christians, but this is the time to forge unity not disunity.".

OOC
Jeruselem is the Crusader State of the same name ...

"I solidly agree with Cardinal Brown. The Crusades are a thing of the past, and regardless of their nature, they simply happened and nothing can be altered about that fact.

Now, Cardinal Braganca, I recall you making a proposal to start a crusade against the Vortex Corporation. I ask you, was that something foolish said in anger, or do you truly intend to assault us?"

After asking, he thought Fool! How on earth can you believe that our God is one that demands blood? How can you forget that the child that is forced to eat something, will never like it, yet will love it when he decides to eat it himself?

Robert Cardinal Reynolds stands and asks to be recognized. It is his first utterance since his arrival. The long trip from Senoj has tired him. Although a young Cardinal at 39, he looked much older. Robert's eyes meet those of an angry fellow bishop as he begins to speak.

Your Eminence and my brothers…May the peace of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you always. The comments by Cardinal Walsh have stirred me more than all of the banter and argument. He has rekindled some of the wonder that I felt as a boy when I first entered the Seminary. The joy and exuberance of loving and serving Jesus overtook me. The pure bliss of receiving the sacraments was all that seemed important at the time. Since then youthful innocence and passion have been replaced by a cynical nature and performance of duty…a daily participation in politics and spiritual warfare. Does my battle with principles and work for the infrastructure of The Church fulfill me or benefit humankind? I am not sure anymore. I am sure that the Spirit of Our Lord was with me in those early days of boyhood in a much more powerful way than today. The Cardinal reminds me of my vows and my original intentions.

All of us are brothers and sisters. Each of us is loved unconditionally and perfectly by God. Henri Nouwen told us that we should remember that we are The Beloved. He used the text from The Bible which gives us God’s message that “You are the beloved and on you my favor rests”. We have all been named the beloved from before the hour that we were knit in our mother’s womb. None of us can add to this or take away from it. This is perfect. We must act from this deep well of love AS the Beloved, the son or daughter of God. It is who we are, for goodness sake. It is our identity.

When we begin to judge, qualify and condemn we accomplish nothing. We waste our time on trying to figure out who is right, who is wrong, who is saved, who is unsaved. All of us have been called to the table. None of us has the complete answer. We are asked by Our Lord to follow one rule as we follow Him. “Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and all of your soul and all of your mind. The second is like unto it. Love your neighbor as yourself”. Love your neighbor as The Beloved. Judge not.

Let us take this with us as we love and serve. Let us remember that we are Servant Leaders. Let us remember who we are.

Robert Cardinal Reynolds stands and asks to be recognized. It is his first utterance since his arrival. The long trip from Senoj has tired him. Although a young Cardinal at 39, he looked much older. Robert's eyes meet those of an angry fellow bishop as he begins to speak.

...

When we begin to judge, qualify and condemn we accomplish nothing. We waste our time on trying to figure out who is right, who is wrong, who is saved, who is unsaved. All of us have been called to the table. None of us has the complete answer. We are asked by Our Lord to follow one rule as we follow Him. “Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and all of your soul and all of your mind. The second is like unto it. Love your neighbor as yourself”. Love your neighbor as The Beloved. Judge not.

Let us take this with us as we love and serve. Let us remember that we are Servant Leaders. Let us remember who we are.

Cardinal Walsh stands and bows slightly towards Cardinal Reynolds. "Your Eminence. Brother. You speak wisely and you speak the truth. Let us follow the example of Christ. He who was truly called 'Master' girded Himself as a servant to wash the feet of His disciples and commanded them and us to do likewise. Let us remember, as Cardinal Reynolds said, that we are not the masters of the Church, but her servants. Amen."

"Cardinal Reynolds, your words are amongst the wisest spoken here today. We are mere mortals, and not meant to judge our fellow man. God will do that, when the time comes. The life of Christ shows us the life of a man that did NOT fight, did NOT slaughter those of different faith, and did NOT pass judgement. He honored ALL life, regardless of nature or past. Let us follow this example, and honor the Lord in the same way that His Son did: with unconditional love for every living thing.

Cardinal Braganca, surely you must remember the life of Christ? And tell me now, please, do you still intend to organize a crusade against my homeland?"

The Emperor bangs his gavel until everyone is silent.

"Your Graces, Your Eminences, SILENCE!" he shouts. "There is a vote before this council, now is not the time to enter into a debate about the Crusades of all things! Every delegate who has already voted on the issue of affirming John Paul II as the Pope... BE SILENT! Every other delegate who has not voted so far, make your vote now, and be succinct about it! This council must stick to an agenda if it is to accomplish anything! A time will come to discuss the matter of Crusades and their role in the modern Church, but this is not that time!"

The Emperor bangs his gavel again.

"You may resume voting!" he concludes.

ooc: dude, everybody voted already, or am I wrong?

ooc: dude, everybody voted already, or am I wrong?

OOC: If the late arriving people also happened to vote in the middle of that debate (and I didn't see any votes), then yes, everybody voted, otherwise, no they did not.

OOC: OK, even though some people still haven't voted, the majority have, and it has been a pretty lopsided poll so far. I will go ahead and declare it over.

IC:

The Emperor Andreus bangs his gavel.

"By a near-unanimous decision, this ecumenical council has affirmed the rightful Pope as John Paul, the second Bishop of Rome to bear the name. This council will adjourn for the evening, and tomorrow, it will resume." he says, banging his gavel again.

The delegates all leave and are accommodated for the evening at the glittering Louisian Palace on the outskirts of New Rome, built by the Emperor Louis I Capet upon his coronation two centuries ago.

***

The next morning...

The Emperor bangs his gavel to reopen the council after Mass.

"Esteemed delegates, since I interrupted a lively debate about the Crusades yesterday, I suggest this council now officially turn its attention to that debate. I would like to propose that the council reach some majority finding about Crusading through some sort of vote." says the Emperor in a loud voice, before banging his gavel again.

He had hoped the council wouldn't bother considering such things as Crusades, but he realises he can't force the council's hand. Soon enough, I will steer them back to my agenda soon enough. the Emperor thinks to himself as he watches the ensuing debate.

Cardinal Walsh, looking refreshed, rises. "Your Majesty, since you have suggested a vote, then, with your permission, allow me to submit a proposal. I propose that the Council resolve, first, to leave the past in the past. While the Crusades were undertaken for often noble purposes, they did not always live up to their ideals. However, I believe that the Church has addressed the issue in the past and there is little to be resolved about the historical Crusades at this late date. Second, I propose that the Council resolve that forcing anyone to proclaim adherence to the Christian faith or to the Church by force of arms or threat of violence is contrary to the teachings of Christ and to the mission of the Church."

"Very well then, I shall hear a vote on Cardinal Walsh's proposal!" says the Emperor, banging his gavel.

Archbishop Vorn spoke. "Crusades aimed at converting nonbelivers should not be allowed, the Baltic crusade should not be repeated. I have nothing agaist Crusades, Theres been several crusades in Teritoran history which all completed their goals of defending the faith, puting Heretics and protecting holy sites."

"Your Grace, shall that be noted as a vote for or against Cardinal Walsh's proposal? Or perhaps Your Grace feels that the proposal should be expanded to allow a wider range of responses?" the Emperor asks.

"I would indeed propose that proposal should be expanded."

"And how would Your Grace expand it?" asks the Emperor.

(out of turn, but--)

"Cardinal Walsh's proposal is an excellent and humanitarian one, and i certainly vote in favour of it," Mangunvijaya says. "Let's not tie ourselves in theological knots about trying to justify past crusades, let's simply accept this proposal and move on to more important matters."

Vorn spoke "That any offensive crusade can only be called by the pope himself, to keep bishops and others from calling for crusades to convert nonchristians and that is alright for bishops, archbishops and cardinals to call for a defensive crusade to defend the faith, fight Hereticy and protect holy sites within their own countries and that they can call for spiritial crusades."

Cardinal Conomos leans forward.

"I think many past Crusades were justified in their intent, although utterly flawed in their execution." he says, his mind wandering to the Fourth Crusade. "But I see no reason why the Church should declare Crusades in the future. I vote in favour of Cardinal Walsh's proposal, without any other ammendments."

Vorn spoke "That any offensive crusade can only be called by the pope himself, to keep bishops and others from calling for crusades to convert nonchristians and that is alright for bishops, archbishops and cardinals to call for a defensive crusade to defend the faith, fight Hereticy and protect holy sites within their own countries and that they can call for spiritial crusades."

"This then is provided as a third option for those who wish to vote on Cardinal Walsh's proposal. The options are to accept the proposal in its entirity, to reject it altogther, or to reject it in favour of the option provided by Archbishop Vorn." says the Emperor, banging his gavel.

Dornsi rose and spoke. "I surport Vorn's proposed ammendments."

"So noted. Three votes in favour of Cardinal Walsh's proposal, and two votes in favour of Archbishop Vorn's counter proposal, thus far." says the Emperor, tallying votes in his head as the scribe copies down.

OOC:universal church EH? how does that one work?

OOC:universal church EH? how does that one work?

That's what Catholic means - "universal".

OOC:Its the catholic church, if I recall right, that is what Catholic means, Universial.

Bishop Hampshand had by now sunk rather far into his seat. This was all too much.

Rubbing his face he wondered if anyone would really notice whether or not Eastgate stuck to its word, or the rule of the church. He could probably vote in-line with his peers, while the push into the great flats and against the Godless savages there continued unabated, couldn't he?

Hampshand would wait just a little longer to see where this Crusade fever was headed.

(and aid with a letter approaches the coucil chambers from the Kingdom of Tord)
Pardon the interruption good council members, but I wish to send my brother, Luke Tord, as a delegate to the council as a representative from the Kingdom of Tord. My Kingdom is heavily stuctured around the religious aspect, and it would be a blessing if we were able to partcipate in this most holy congregation of minds. Although Luke is still a youth, he is patient and learned, and I believe he could add much to your discusions.
God bless you
Queen Patricia

"We vote Yay on both proposals. The past is the past."

Says, Braganca, "Infidels, heretics, how dare this Council say that John Paul speaks with the authority of the Holy Spirit? He actively aids and abets Beelzebub. He befriends the heretics. He has truly abandoned his duty to the Lord. John Paul is merely an appendage on the body of Satan.

"With this, I have no choice but to realize that this 'esteemed' meeting has been corrupted by the devil. This 'ecumenical council' is no more than an illegal and immoral gathering that serves as the mouthpiece of Satan. I shall return to my archdiocese, for my flock refuses to accept the evils committed within the doomed halls of this New Sodom.

"However, before I take my leave, I leave this for your consideration: the Crusades were sinless and spiritually perfect. No sins or crimes were committed either in the Baltic or in the Holy Land. Those who we Christians killed were Satan-spawn. The Crusade against the Mohammedans failed to achieve success not because of our leaders' sinfulness, but because of their military incompetence. I repeat, the Crusades were utterly noble and without sin. As such, we must go on future crusades to rid the world of filth and blasphemy, and pray to God that in addition to providing us with His spiritual perfection, He also gives us competent military leaders.

"Because the King of the Schismatic States truly means to increase unity within Christendom, Cardinal Gabarelli, who I know is much more conciliatory, will take my place and try to reach an understanding."

With this, Braganca was off. However before he reached the doors into the sunlight, he turned back and addressed the Vortex Corporation: "Indeed, I pray for God to smite your heretical nation, and although King Xenophon may not agree to take direct immediate military action against your evil brethren, I call for all the Christian nations to unite in a great crusade against the Vortex Corp's evil heathenism. You have suggested that Catholicism is not the One True religion, and that 'the other religions are valid facets of God.' For this I pray that God has mercy on your evil soul and that he forgives your faithless polytheism."

Moments later, Arturio Cardinal Gabarelli, Archbishop of Middle Palatinate in the Schismatic States, steps in to take the seat previously occupied by Braganca. Gabarelli was ejected on the first day to make room for Braganca, but now he is hopeful to contribute to unity within Christianity. After being briefed on the proceedings by a Pantacratorian scribe, he rises to address the council:

"Let us pray for Braganca's soul, and hope that he realizes the error of his ways and accepts the Bishop of Rome as our teacher and guide in the noble fight for Christ's Kingdom.

"Braganca and I differ on the status of John Paul as Pope, and thus he has more than once tried to get King Xenophon to imprison me for 'heresy and blasphemy.' However I forgive his misguided soul and pray every day that he will once again accept the Catholic Communion.

"Regarding the current matter at hand, the Levantine Crusades were noble in their intent. They were defensive in nature and had the aim to protect Christian sites and the Christian faith from foreign infidel aggressors. As such, Braganca is wrong to advocate violent wars of aggression for the purpose of forced conversion - the Baltic Crusade and the 4th Crusade illustrate human greed and recklessness. However, I believe Comonos is wrong to suggest that Crusades can never be executed properly.

"We should always seek to spread the Gospel among non-believers through peaceful means, but if heathens use violence against lands that have already accepted Christianity, it is our duty to defend the Church, with arms if necessary. With proper execution and guidance, any future Crusades intending to defend Christianity will be fruitful in protecting our brethren while being in accordance with the Scriptures.

"Thus I vote in favor of Vorn's amendment."

Cardinal Brown addressed the Cardinals "We vote in favour of Walsh's proposal. However, the threat of force should be used as a tool of last resort and we should not violate our signed International treaties with blatant disregard."

Cardinal Walsh, looking refreshed, rises. "Your Majesty, since you have suggested a vote, then, with your permission, allow me to submit a proposal. I propose that the Council resolve, first, to leave the past in the past. While the Crusades were undertaken for often noble purposes, they did not always live up to their ideals. However, I believe that the Church has addressed the issue in the past and there is little to be resolved about the historical Crusades at this late date. Second, I propose that the Council resolve that forcing anyone to proclaim adherence to the Christian faith or to the Church by force of arms or threat of violence is contrary to the teachings of Christ and to the mission of the Church."

"I vote for Cardinal Walsh's proposal," Cardinal Theophilius exclaimed.

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

(and aid with a letter approaches the coucil chambers from the Kingdom of Tord)
Pardon the interruption good council members, but I wish to send my brother, Luke Tord, as a delegate to the council as a representative from the Kingdom of Tord. My Kingdom is heavily stuctured around the religious aspect, and it would be a blessing if we were able to partcipate in this most holy congregation of minds. Although Luke is still a youth, he is patient and learned, and I believe he could add much to your discusions.
God bless you
Queen Patricia

Is Your Majesty's brother a bishop?

"Brother, I didn't mean that no Crusade could be succ..." Cardinal Conomos starts.

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"Your votes have all been noted." says the Emperor.

Walshes proposal is one I deem good, though it is closely countered by the esteemed Vorsh. But mine remains with Walsh.

I think that most of us by the concience in our hearts will consider, but ignore the schismatic states accusal. Passing judgement is a thing he does too easy. May the holy spirit guide us in all our actions.

"So noted." says the Emperor as the scribe records another vote.

Robert Cardinal Reynolds votes in favor with Cardinal Walsh

Cardinal Russell Crowe votes in favor with Cardinal Walsh although he looks he wants go to the pub.

"Their Graces' votes are noted." says the Emperor.

My Brother, Luke Tord, is not yet an archbishop, though he is an acolyte in training in my Kingdom's priesthood.
I pray you will consider accepting him nonetheless.
Sincerely
Queen Patricia

My Brother, Luke Tord, is not yet an archbishop, though he is an acolyte in training in my Kingdom's priesthood.
I pray you will consider accepting him nonetheless.
Sincerely
Queen Patricia

Your Majesty,

This issue is now being handled via private telegram.

Regards,

ANDREUS I IMP. PANTOCRATORIA

"Cardinal Gabarelli, please inform your king that the Vortex Corporation, neither it's Church, nor it's defence forces, wish a conflict with your flock and nation. But any act of agression will, unfortunately, know retaliation.

Now, as for this issue currently on vote: I think we have the results?"

"Unless there is anybody else who wishes to cast their vote?" the Emperor asks, looking at Hampshand. "Also I'd like to clarify your position, Cardinal Aegeri... you said yay to both proposals, but you can only vote yes to one... now which was it, Cardinal Walsh's, or Archbishop Vorn's?"

"I am very sorry for the confusion. I must say I was quite, irritated, by the disputes that we have all been able to witness here. It is zealots like Cardinal Braganca that block the way to unification, I fear. My vote is for Cardinal Walsh"

Aegeri lifts his glass to take a sip of water, after nodding shortly to Cardinal Walsh.

"Very well, then the votes so far are nine in favour of Cardinal Walsh's proposal, and three in favour of Archbishop Vorn's." says the Emperor. "It seems clear that this council has adopted Cardinal Walsh's proposal."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

Cardinal Conomos stands.

"Your Imperial Majesty, venerable brothers," Conomos starts. "to those of you who voted against Cardinal Walsh's proposal, it seems to me that as this isn't an issue of dogma so much as Church conduct, it needed be one over which any schisms should develop between those Churches complying with this ecumenical council and those who do not - this is not an issue of faith, it is more an issue of politics."

"If I may then direct the council to issues of faith," Conomos says, looking to the Emperor, who nods his approval. "I believe that this council has taken an anti-abortion and anti-contraconception stance as a result of affirming the papacy of John Paul II. This is a stance which I agree with, but I feel it is a stance which should be made explicity by a vote of my venerable brothers. In the encyclical Evangelicum Vitae, the Holy Father instructed us as members of the episcopate on the issue of the sanctity of human life. Abortion is forbidden by this encyclical, and by the catechisms. I ask that the council show its explicit support for this stance in a vote."

"Finally, I ask that the council also denounce violence against abortion clinics, their staff, and their customers, because although they commit unspeakable sin, all violence is unacceptable in the eyes of God. We must stand against abortion, but I believe we must also stand against those who bomb abortion clinics, murder their staff and clientele, and so on." says Cardinal Conomos. "We should stand for peaceful forms of protest."

"Very well..." says the Emperor, relieved that his Cardinal turned the subject to an issue which affected public policy. "Two votes are ordered, one to take an anti-abortion stance, and another to shun violence anti-abortion protests in favour of peaceful ones."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

Aegeri smiles, his face lighting up as it were. Finally, something positive to talk about.

"My esteemed brothers, this issue is very relevant indeed, as it is a very urgent issue that needs to be adressed in both the first and third world. Now, each of you know that I hold my flock in the Vortex Corporation. There, abortion is forbidden, simply because it is a waste of potential knowledge, labor and cultural wealth. Each person is considered a valuable asset. If a mother doe not wish to raise her child, adoption by another parent or couple is always possible, and if that does not work, which is rare, the Corporation is able to give each child a full education and training, plus all the care it needs. That is, in my opinion, a large advantage of a Corporation: human life is more valuable than anywhere else.

But, this also implies that I have not experienced the dilemma of being either for or against abortion. Therefore, the Utharian Church branche abstains from voting on that issue.

As for violence against those associated with abortion: I strongly protest against it. First of all, violence is not needed in those cases and should thus not be applied. Secondly, often the doctors and nurses in those clinics work from a humanitarian motivation. Regardless of whether their work is sinful or not, I believe such people, that have dedicated their life to the fulfilling of the needs of others, should not be harmed. I vote against the use of violence against abortion personnel."

"Very well, then the votes so far are nine in favour of Cardinal Walsh's proposal, and three in favour of Archbishop Vorn's." says the Emperor. "It seems clear that this council has adopted Cardinal Walsh's proposal."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

Cardinal Conomos stands.

"Your Imperial Majesty, venerable brothers," Conomos starts. "to those of you who voted against Cardinal Walsh's proposal, it seems to me that as this isn't an issue of dogma so much as Church conduct, it needed be one over which any schisms should develop between those Churches complying with this ecumenical council and those who do not - this is not an issue of faith, it is more an issue of politics."

"If I may then direct the council to issues of faith," Conomos says, looking to the Emperor, who nods his approval. "I believe that this council has taken an anti-abortion and anti-contraconception stance as a result of affirming the papacy of John Paul II. This is a stance which I agree with, but I feel it is a stance which should be made explicity by a vote of my venerable brothers. In the encyclical Evangelicum Vitae, the Holy Father instructed us as members of the episcopate on the issue of the sanctity of human life. Abortion is forbidden by this encyclical, and by the catechisms. I ask that the council show its explicit support for this stance in a vote."

"Finally, I ask that the council also denounce violence against abortion clinics, their staff, and their customers, because although they commit unspeakable sin, all violence is unacceptable in the eyes of God. We must stand against abortion, but I believe we must also stand against those who bomb abortion clinics, murder their staff and clientele, and so on." says Cardinal Conomos. "We should stand for peaceful forms of protest."

"Very well..." says the Emperor, relieved that his Cardinal turned the subject to an issue which affected public policy. "Two votes are ordered, one to take an anti-abortion stance, and another to shun violence anti-abortion protests in favour of peaceful ones."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

I vote against abortion and against violent anti-abortion protests.

In Christ,

+Theophilius Cardinal Sanghorn
Archbishop of Syskeyiapolis
Primate of Syskeyia

"Your votes are so noted." says the Emperor.

"Cardinal Aegeri," interjects Cardinal Conomos. "Your church hasn't yet taken a position on abortion as you say... and yet here is your opportunity to do so."

"The Utharian Church will follow the policy of the Corporation that it is situated in. We vote against abortion."

Gabarelli rises to address the council: "Before we proceed any further, I demand that Cardinal Aegeri of the Vortex Corporation recant this statement:"

And I also belief that the major religions of this world are all different variants of the same faith in one God, or in different facets of his existence.


"The way of the Lord Jesus Christ provides the only moral way of life. All other ideologies, no matter how seemingly well-intentioned, are merely disguises for the works of the devil. If Aegeri refuses to renounce his statement, I will have to recommend that this council pronounce excommunication for the Commonwealth of the Vortex Corporation or even raise the banner of holy crusade against Aegeri's misguided heresy."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"Since it distresses Your Lordship, we'll deal with that issue next." says the Emperor. "But right now, there is a vote before this council, and Your Eminence has yet to vote, I ask you to lay this aside until this vote is concluded."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"Since it distresses Your Lordship, we'll deal with that issue next." says the Emperor. "But right now, there is a vote before this council, and Your Eminence has yet to vote, I ask you to lay this aside until this vote is concluded."

"We vote against both abortion and anti-abortion violence."

"Humans exist. Apes exist. Humans are, obviously, superior to apes. But apes are still considered a good presence. They have their place in the circle of life, and we try to protect them.

The Catholic faith exists. Other religions also exist. I believe that of all faiths, catholicism is the one that is the nearest to the true path of God. But just as apes have many human characteristics, so do other religions have several characteristics they share with the Faith. And therefore, they cannot be entirely evil.

Other religions also believe in the One God. However, I have never stated that they are equal to catholics. Personally, I think catholicism is closer to the true faith than other faiths, I repeat. But other faiths still have some parts right. So instead of seeing them as works of the devil, I perceive other ideologies as not entirely evolved. Just as apes approach humans, but do not equal them, so is it the case with faith."

"Humans exist. Apes exist. Humans are, obviously, superior to apes. But apes are still considered a good presence. They have their place in the circle of life, and we try to protect them.

The Catholic faith exists. Other religions also exist. I believe that of all faiths, catholicism is the one that is the nearest to the true path of God. But just as apes have many human characteristics, so do other religions have several characteristics they share with the Faith. And therefore, they cannot be entirely evil.

"Catholicism is the only true path to God. All other faiths may be outwardly similar in goals but are invariably the instruments of the deceiver. To suggest otherwise is to reject God and the Word of God."

Other religions also believe in the One God. However, I have never stated that they are equal to catholics. Personally, I think catholicism is closer to the true faith than other faiths, I repeat. But other faiths still have some parts right. So instead of seeing them as works of the devil, I perceive other ideologies as not entirely evolved. Just as apes approach humans, but do not equal them, so is it the case with faith."
"I condemn you for suggesting that evolution is involved either in the world of nature or the world of spirituality. A religion, like a species, is either all or nothing. There are no compromises. There are no half-ape half-men nor are there half-good and half-evil or acceptable half-Christianity and half-paganism. God gave us the faith of Christianity in whole; missing one component of Christianity and you will miss the entire point. Christianity embodies all that is good. Heathenism, even though it may have good components, if tainted with even the smallest amount of evil, is all evil."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"The argument is irrelevant to the point at hand! After the council has voted on the matter of abortion, we shall proceed to discuss these theological niceties, if it pleases you!" says the Emperor. He instantly regrets it. "Allow me to rephrase, Your Eminences. Let us handle one issue at a time. My scribe is getting his pen in a twist."

[ooc: ehm, I did not intend "evolve" to be used in the Darwinistic approach. Aegeri believes God is responsible for all of Creation. I apologise for my poor choice of words. His point is that he thinks the Catholic Church is the best one, and that other faiths can only be partially right.]

Mangunvijaya is back on his feet. "I have some points to make on Cardinal Aerigi's excellent statement, but i shall await that item to make them," he smiles, with a slight bow to the irritated-looking Emperor.

"Now, as to the current topic at issue. I have been very pleased to vote with the majority each time so far, it encourages me that unity is closer than the doubters suggested. But we have some differences on issues of sexual morality, and there is no sense sweeping them under the carpet.

"I believe that although we are asked to vote on two points, there are actually three at issue. To the third, a ban on violence as a form of protest, we of course vote yes. We must win this battle by persuasion, not coercion, or we will have become what we fight, instruments of violence.

"The first point calls for a ban on abortion and contraception, and these are two quite different matters. Our church certainly discourages abortion, not as a murder or an unborn child as some zealots call it, but because it is the destruction of potential. But we have no objection to contraception. To forbid contraception, indeed, is to encourage back-ally abortions. It is to encourage the spread of AIDS. It is to say that the only purpose of the sex act is procreation, when in fact sex is also a gift from God. Not one that i enjoy, of course," he says with a chuckle, "being one of those called to celibacy. But not everyone can be a priest, after all!

"So, i ask that we vote separately on abotion and contraception. If we cannot, i will have to vote against the first point.

"It's true, we accept that John Paul II is Pope. But as I said earlier, that does not mean we accept his every word as binding law. Our acceptance of the Pope's authority is conditinal the tenets of Vatican II on the collegiality of bishops. We disagree with the Holy Father's teachings on human sexuality, and there is no sense denying that we disagree."

Well, it's out there now, he thinks, taking his seat once again. I wonder if we're about to be excommunicated again?

"Let us open the first point into two then, one on abortion, one on contraception." says the Emperor, banging his gavel.

"Contraception is a perversion of God's gift to us, Your Grace." says Cardinal Conomos, setting aside his glass of water. "God's gift to man is two-fold in the.. the act. It isn't merely procreation, but procreation is intertwined with the other elements. To engage in... intercourse... is to engage in the act as whole. It is incorrect to exclude the procreative element - part of God's gift to us is that we should be like Him in some small respect, in that we too can create life, through this act. You say that forbidding contraception makes sex an act of procreation only. If that is true, then allowing contraception makes sex an act of pleasure only. God's gift to us is that it is both, Your Grace."

"Pleasure is not a sin, Your Grace," Mangunviaja says gently. "We allow women past the age of child bearing to make love. We allow those who are barren to make love. And so on. There is no possibility of procreation there. The procreative aspect is symbolic in those acts. So too in intercourse with contraception.

"And it is an act of pure cruelty to forbid condoms in an age where AIDS is rampant. If we forbid condoms there, then we are conniving in the spread of fatal disease. We would be, in a sense, accomplices to murder. And above all, we are called to defend life."

Conomos looks annoyed.

"As a point of courtesy, Your Grace, I ask that you address me as befits a prince of the Church!" Conomos says, before adjusting his collar. "I didn't say pleasure was a sin. I said that the pleasurable aspects of this act are intertwined with the procreation aspects. The procreation aspect isn't purely symbolic, or else Your Grace and myself would not be here today."

"In the instance of barren people, God has seen fit that for them, his gift should exclude an aspect of procreation. But for those capable of siring and conceiving a child, God has seen fit to give them the full gift. Surely you see how both elements, the pleasurable and procreative ones, are parts of this gift to man!" says Conomos. "Further, the issue of AIDS is utterly immaterial to a doctrinal debate, so I shan't go into that at all. In any case Your Grace, if I offered you a gift of a fine hat, you would either politely decline it or accept it in full. You wouldn't cut it in half and take the half which suited you best, and discard the other."

"If my means of addressing Your Grace is unbefitting his dignity, I apologize," Mangunvijaya says. "The bishops in Tanah Burung have been long out of touch with other churches, and have adopted a certain informality and directness with one another. I shall try to address you with greater respect, and i would be grateful if you would let me know if i am using improper titles.

"As the the other matter, i can add nothing to what i have already said, save my belief that doctrine must always be tempered by the need to look at the world we actually live in, with a compassionate gaze. If i have failed to convince you, it is my failure alone."

"Pardon me, Your Grace, I didn't mean to snap about it. A Cardinal is properly addressed as Eminence, or Lordship." Conomos says, embarrassed that it means so much to him. "The failing is equally mine, Your Grace, if I have failed to convince you of the correctness of my position. Perhaps then I should look to the eloquence of the catechisms?"

Conomos picks up his book of catechisms.

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

"Do not the catechisms then unequivocably state that contraception is contradictory to the nature of the gift of conjugal love?" says Conomos, furnishing himself with the book's phrases.

"I repeat that the Utharian Church votes against abortion and against using violence against abortion clinics and personnel. Also, we vote against the use of contraceptives."

ooc: we have very low fertility anyway due to...eh...stuff. So we're happy with every new child.

"I also wish to reiterate that the Schismatic States votes against abortion and anti-abortion violence. Likewise we also condemn the use of contraceptives..."

"But I propose that after the current discussion this council hold a vote of excommunication against Vortex Corporation for making these blasphemous comments:"

And I also belief that the major religions of this world are all different variants of the same faith in one God, or in different facets of his existence.

"The Word of God, revealed to the prophets and apostles, says that the only way to everlasting life is through the infinite grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the work of His Catholic Church."

The Catholic faith exists. Other religions also exist. I believe that of all faiths, catholicism is the one that is the nearest to the true path of God. But just as apes have many human characteristics, so do other religions have several characteristics they share with the Faith. And therefore, they cannot be entirely evil.

"Catholicism is not nearest to the true path of God. Catholicism is the true path of God. Catholicism is the only path to the Kingdom of God. All other religions are equally far removed from God and equally vile in nature."

"A religion is either entirely good or entirely evil; it cannot be both. It cannot be partly good and partly evil. As such, Christianity is perfect in its goodness - it lacks evil. Heathenism, even if it seems well-intentioned, if it is tainted with even the smallest bit of Satan's lies, is entirely evil. To suggest otherwise is to turn your back on the Lord and accept the treachery of Satan."

"I call on you, Robert Cardinal Aegeri, to recant your polytheistic blasphemy."

"I am sorry to interrupt the debate," Cardinal Walsh says quietly, "but I would like to record my vote - against abortion and against anti-abortion violence. It is a mockery to take lives and inflict suffering in the name of protecting life. Abortion is wrong, but so is violence directed against clinics, doctors or mothers-to-be. As for contraception, I personally am open to reconsidering it, but I would not wish to do so without the Holy Father's participation in the discussion. So, for the moment, I vote against contraception as well."

"I am sorry if I have confused you. My travel was long, and the physical violence used here has confused me. Why do you think I am here, why I am a Cardinal? It is because I consider Catholicism the one true faith. That is my stance, regardless of what I have said before. You can either accept that or not."

"I am sorry if I have confused you. My travel was long, and the physical violence used here has confused me. Why do you think I am here, why I am a Cardinal? It is because I consider Catholicism the one true faith. That is my stance, regardless of what I have said before. You can either accept that or not."

"That is is acceptable. You must realize the cause of my concern. All of us gathered here could plainly see that your previous words smacked of polytheism and heresy.

"All other religions are entirely evil when contrasted with the spiritual perfection of the Christian Church."

Vorn muttered something in Old Teritoran. "Hersi Boerenai Gernia estsi jeri vornis" then spoke. "We are now touching on the grounds that should only be talked about with his holyness present. but I can say that Abortion is concidered a crime agaist the state and the church in Teritora."

Cardinal Brown voted "We vote against both abortion and anti-abortion violence. However we have a liberal stance towards Contraception."

"Would those delegates who have voted against abortion and violent anti-abortion protests who have yet to do so also cast their votes on the issue of contraception?" asks the Emperor as the votes are tallied.

"I don't understand..." says Conomos shaking his head. "Doctrinal niceties are one thing, but here it is, spelled out in Catechism, and the bulk of you, my venerable brothers, seem to be lukewarm about contraception. I suppose this council could reverse the position of old on the matter, but changing doctrine solely to suit modern suitabilities is hardly the intent of an ecumenical council. Next, there'll be those among you who'll suggest we stop calling masturbation, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality sins. Where does it stop?"

Dornsi spoke. "Its a known fact that his Holynes is contraception and Abortion. It would not be wise to go agaist his holynesses wishes."

His Eminence Jozef von Ropp of the Hillbilly Warriors apologizes for his tardiness in attending the council.

After quickly scanning the first and last pages of the large dossier he recieved at the door, he wonders, has the rest of the church not been taught the wonders of Natural Family Planning???

He then goes to re read the rest of the dossier. *hides in corner*

Cardinal Russell Crowe (Holy Latin Empire) voted "We vote against both abortion and anti-abortion violence as well as contraception. Our conservative stance is well known unlike our more liberal Jeruselem."

"Votes are noted, is there anybody else who wishes to vote?" says the Emperor, looking around.

I vote against contraception.

In Christ,

Theophilius Cardinal Sanghorn
Archbishop of Syskeyiapolis
Primate of Syskeyia

For the record, Cardinal von Ropp of the Hillbilly Warriors votes against contraception and abortion. However, it is firmly believed that when the mother's health is endangered abortion is allowed. *shakes head* There are always two sides to an issue....

"Very well, then the votes have fallen thus:" the Emperor begins, reading off a sheet of paper.

"On the issue of abortion, 11 delegates have voted that it should be forbidden except in the case where the mother may die as a result of bearing the child." the Emperor says. "No votes have been cast against. Therefore this council finds that abortion should be forbidden except in cases where bearing the child to term would cause the death of the mother."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"On the issue of contraception, 9 delegates have voted that it should be forbidden, 1 has voted that it should be allowed, and 1 has indicated a 'liberal stance' on the issue. Some delegates have indicated a willingness to discuss the issue further, but only in the presence of the Pope. Due to the Holy Father's failing health, the Pope cannot be involved in this council, and as a result, these delegates have voted with his previously articulated anti-contraception stance." the Emperor says. "Therefore, this council finds that no Catholic should make use of artificial contraception."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"On the issue of anti-abortion violence, 8 delegates have voted that it should be decried, with no opposing." the Emperor says. "Therefore this council warns Catholics not to employ violence in their protests against abortion."

The Emperor bangs his gavel.

"This council is hereby closed for the evening. It shall reconvene tomorrow, where a new issue will be discussed." says the Emperor, banging his gavel, and then standing.

"Therefore this council finds that abortion should be forbidden except in cases where bearing the child to term would cause the death of the mother."

"Therefore, this council finds that no Catholic should make use of artificial contraception."

"On the issue of anti-abortion violence, 8 delegates have voted that it should be decried, with no opposing." the Emperor says. "Therefore this council warns Catholics not to employ violence in their protests against abortion."

Robert Cardinal Reynolds sits. I am sorry for my absence Your Grace. There was a rather touchy scandal at one of my small parishes. I apologize. I agree with the issues as adopted.

Cardinal Walsh retires to his quarters and spends much of the night in prayer and meditation.

Cardinal Reynolds retires to his room. He sits in disturbed silence and is overcome briefly with sadness and worry about the happenings in Rosman, a mountain parish, in Senoj. He turns to God for guidance and then falls into contemplative, centering prayer. The answers will come.

Archbishop Vorn retires to a night of prayer, reflection and reading the report of the Inquistion invesgatation into the attempted assassination on himself.

Cardinal Aegeri slowly strolls back to his room, whilst admiring the architecture and works of art around him. The violence, the accusations of the Schismatic States, and the entire start of the conference had made him think this would turn out to be a mess. However, the Emperor had been able to restore discipline, and now things seemed to go better and better...

Dornsi retired quickly to his rooms to rest.

Cardinal Brown and Cardinal Russell Crowe headed towards their quarters with Brown helping a tired Crowe walk back before reporting back to Queen on day's events.

Bishop Mangunvijaya retires to his room and spends the night in prayer. If the others were going to accept every word of a man that could not be here as law, then he feared that his church would remain in impaired communion at best. Perhaps, though, communion might be possible along the lines offered to eastern-rite churches, which are allowed such departures from Papal rules as married priests. That would be up to the others. He resolved to remain quiet to next day and avoid causing offence, and then ask the majority whether they would accept his church as one of them or not.

Is it too late for the MSRA to send its most famous archbishop?

Is it too late for the MSRA to send its most famous archbishop?

No, day one is over but we should have more issues to settle.

Is it too late for the MSRA to send its most famous archbishop?

Absolutely, please send him.

Is it too late for the MSRA to send its most famous archbishop?

Absolutely, please send him.

Is Christian - Arab/Moslem relations part of the next days agenda?
Our nation is kinda full of them ...

OOC: I'd like people to propose some issues they'd like to see covered in today's agenda!

IC: After another morning Mass, the council continues its deliberations, a bang of the Emperor's gavel signifying an official opening to the day's discussions. The Emperor throws the floor open to any delegate who wishes to propose an item for discussion.