NationStates Jolt Archive

Even though I know this is in the same ballbark as Nintendo and Sony, Ford and Chevy, Liberal and Conservative (IE: almost pointless to debate), I'm still going to voice my opinion, even though I count on being shot down.

Points made against space tech:

It's unfair: How so? If you're one of these nations that goes around "shit stirring" (looking for trouble), and you step on the toes of a big space nation, expect to get an interstellar ass whooping. Space nations generally don't go around picking fights, because most of the time, we'll be ignored because our tech is higher.

As stated by me before: "If an alien lands in your backyard and bitch slaps you, can you simply look at him and say I ignore you?" No, you can't. there is no denying that superior tech is out there, and to do so is just plain silly.

I undertand that M-16's and pulse rifles are 2 totally different things, but whatever happended to the statement about "An AK-47 can kill you just as dead as a charged particle cannon."? A terrorist with an RPG is more than a match for a cyborg, it all boils down to tactics.

I can't fight back: Sure you can. The #1 complaint about orbital bombardments is that people can't return fire. Look at it this way, if a battleship is parked 30 miles off your coast, it'll be able to hit you, but ground artillery couldn't touch it. Same thing goes for orbital stikes: the ordinance is falling on top of you either way. Does it matter if it's 30 miles off in the water, or the same distance but above you?

But, one could say: well, I could shoot missiles at the battleship, but not the starcruiser! That may be true, but try using conventional ICBM's, scramjet missiles, anything. A Phalanax (sp?) vulcan gun system (that's on battleships and carriers) can take down ALOT of anti-ship missiles, so how would that be diferent than a turbolaser firing at the same missile?

It's too advanced!

I know it's a shame that somebody else has bigger toys than you, but it's happens. I'm sure the Bushmen of Afrcia wouldn't "ignore" an attack by US, Russian, or Brittish troops, and that would be basically spear vs gun. Superior tech is out there in RL too.



But, sadly, this is a freeform RP forum, so you have the right to ignore anything you'd like, to a degree. But I personally think it's poor practice to ignore space tech simply because it's more advanced. The aliens in Independance Day got their asses whooped by humans in jet fighters, and by 1 nuclear bomb. And all their uber shielding, laser guns, cyborg-like body suits, and mega large space ships did them no good, they still lost.

Every space tech nation knows that there are always weaknesses with their tech, and there has to be, so keep that in mind.


:Now open for criticism:

Do I ignore space tech?
No.

Do I ignore godmoding?
YES.

/me stands and begins clapping. :P

I've got nothing against space tech, but HOUNDs are completely absurd. Ortillery is likewise [in my opinion] for people with no sense of tactics. Hammering at someone from 20 miles up is no honorable way to win a war.

But my main beef with space nations is the fact that it's impossible for me to get to most of them at the moment. Luckily, my Third Generation Fleets will have FTL.. but no one knows that yet :twisted:

Agreed, although I never would use orbital bombardment unless the opposing nation launches nukes at me. Then there'll be a bombardment. We're much more about looking your enemy in the eyes.

I've got nothing against space tech, but HOUNDs are completely absurd. Ortillery is likewise [in my opinion] for people with no sense of tactics. Hammering at someone from 20 miles up is no honorable way to win a war.

I posted a thread some time ago about how all nuclear weapons in AMF were to be destroyed, including HOUNDS.


But my main beef with space nations is the fact that it's impossible for me to get to most of them at the moment. Luckily, my Third Generation Fleets will have FTL.. but no one knows that yet :twisted:

I "left Earth" so I wouldn't have to deal with 1 week old nations launching nookZ at me. It's worked wonders for my sanity. :P

Good old days in April when there were about 10 space nations, all in the SFNA.

Good old days in April when there were about 10 space nations, all in the SFNA.

Like Titan?

Also, as stated by Kitsylvania before, there is a difference between space-tech and godmodding. You can have a Gundam, that's all well and good, but you can't have an invisible Gundam that's 16.7 meters tall and let it still weigh 10 pounds *cough cough Wolf Kingdom*. And have it "hyper super ultra mega uber plasma buster beam rifle sabre blasters" that can rip a hole through time-space every time it shoots its micro-ICBMs tipped with Death Rays. And, unfortunately, it can't sing "In the End" either.

Pop a CD in, though, and maybe...

Since i'm new in space, i am somewhat like the zulu nation trying to stand up to a maxim gun. I wont ignore but i ask that i'm not attacked, why? cause the fight would be over in less than a minute. Unless i'm attacked with rocks and blow darts :lol: . And i agree with Automag about the shit stirring..

I Ignore Space Tech because im a mod tech nation. I still think that Space nations should fight space nations and if any start attacking me i will IGNORE them. Maybe im wrong maybe im right. (Maybe i need a space fleet) who knows.

did I hear something...... as for me, I only threaten ortillery when I am fighting another high tech nation (that shoot big tesla guns at me) that has a weapon that in two shots can knock out the sheilds on a Battlewagon, and even then, I have never used ortillery after that time with Raem/

For the Zulu Nations (and presumably you), get big-boy allies.

Also, as stated by Kitsylvania before, there is a difference between space-tech and godmodding. You can have a Gundam, that's all well and good, but you can't have an invisible Gundam that's 16.7 meters tall and let it still weigh 10 pounds *cough cough Wolf Kingdom*. And have it "hyper super ultra mega uber plasma buster beam rifle sabre blasters" that can rip a hole through time-space every time it shoots its micro-ICBMs tipped with Death Rays. And, unfortunately, it can't sing "In the End" either.

Pop a CD in, though, and maybe...

OOC: MAn, don't do that! I just coughed up my sandwich laughing!

I Ignore Space Tech because im a mod tech nation.

That's your only reason for blanket ignoring all space tech?

Yes. You gotta problem with it LUMP IT.

whats wrong with ignoring it, if an alien came into my backyard i would wake up and stop dreaming. Space tech is fiction, no matter about tactics which is impossible to do here anyway.

whats wrong with ignoring it, if an alien came into my backyard i would wake up and stop dreaming. Space tech is fiction, no matter about tactics which is impossible to do here anyway.

Well put. But Homeworld 2 is a cool game :)

whats wrong with ignoring it, if an alien came into my backyard i would wake up and stop dreaming. Space tech is fiction, no matter about tactics which is impossible to do here anyway.

Your nation growing by 5 million a night is also fiction.

Also, as stated by Kitsylvania before, there is a difference between space-tech and godmodding. You can have a Gundam, that's all well and good, but you can't have an invisible Gundam that's 16.7 meters tall and let it still weigh 10 pounds *cough cough Wolf Kingdom*. And have it "hyper super ultra mega uber plasma buster beam rifle sabre blasters" that can rip a hole through time-space every time it shoots its micro-ICBMs tipped with Death Rays. And, unfortunately, it can't sing "In the End" either.

Pop a CD in, though, and maybe...

OOC: MAn, don't do that! I just coughed up my sandwich laughing!

The Republic of Tiburon is extremely sorry about the loss of Sakkra's sandwich and is offering to ship you a new one, free of charge.

whats wrong with ignoring it, if an alien came into my backyard i would wake up and stop dreaming. Space tech is fiction, no matter about tactics which is impossible to do here anyway.

Your nation growing by 5 million a night is also fiction.

Who says it does that a night, NS and RL have different time scales.

Yes. You gotta problem with it LUMP IT.

Then you are missing out.

I have yet to see a stupid, godmodding space nation (well, Foe Hammer, but that's another story).

Most space nations like Angelus, Scolopendra, Menelmacar, Karma, Ma-tek, etc.. are extraordinary RPers. Ignoring them simply because of their tech level is absurd.

I dont ignore them, i frequently read rps and threads with space nation v space nation and even some space v mod, but i would ignore an attack on me by them. (Not sure if thats allowed of not but o well)

whats wrong with ignoring it, if an alien came into my backyard i would wake up and stop dreaming. Space tech is fiction, no matter about tactics which is impossible to do here anyway.

Your nation growing by 5 million a night is also fiction.

Who says it does that a night, NS and RL have different time scales.

Most people use the 1 day=a year time scale, from when the stop playing NS for the day, and start playing it the next day.

Growing by 5 million even in a year is absurd.

Yes. You gotta problem with it LUMP IT.

Then you are missing out.

I have yet to see a stupid, godmodding space nation (well, Foe Hammer, but that's another story).

Most space nations like Angelus, Scolopendra, Menelmacar, Karma, Ma-tek, etc.. are extraordinary RPers. Ignoring them simply because of their tech level is absurd.

Including me? I'm an extraordinary RPer? I'm honored... :cry: (crying 'cuz I'm happy)

I dont ignore them, i frequently read rps and threads with space nation v space nation and even some space v mod, but i would ignore an attack on me by them. (Not sure if thats allowed of not but o well)

That is not fair then. You can't just say that you'll only ignore them if they attack you, that's godmodding. Who's to say then that you can't execute 10,000,000,000 elves, then tell Menelmacar you ignore her when she comes for you ass?
That's godmodding, because it makes you invulnerable in a sense.

depends how horny your people are :shock:

see what you mean about good RPers, just i reckon if they stick to battles or whatever with their favoured/current tech then there will be less misunderstandings and more detailed RPs.

Including me? I'm an extraordinary RPer? I'm honored... :cry: (crying 'cuz I'm happy)

Oh, there are a TON of other space nations that rock at RPing, but those are generally the most recognizable names when "space tech" is mentioned.

Well, if I was ever to become involved with Eath wars, we operate a small area we conquested in Scotland a while back.

We always see kthe permission of both sides before becoming involved in modern tech wars, and even then we do not ever use our highly adanved stuff. We save that for nations of similar level... (although we share great relations with 99% of space nations :P)

I dont ignore them, i frequently read rps and threads with space nation v space nation and even some space v mod, but i would ignore an attack on me by them. (Not sure if thats allowed of not but o well)

That is not fair then. You can't just say that you'll only ignore them if they attack you, that's godmodding. Who's to say then that you can't execute 10,000,000,000 elves, then tell Menelmacar you ignore her when she comes for you ass?
That's godmodding, because it makes you invulnerable in a sense.

Makes me selectively invunerable. If i did sumthing as mentioned above then i would take the rap. But i dont believe that there are any elves in my nations (makes mental note to check that.) Also i read space rps because they tend to be better than the average mod tech ones because they are mostly done by more experienced nations so i can learn things for my rps. If i provoke them i will fight them, but if they just appear above me and blast the S**t outta me then im gonna launch those big honkin IGNORE missiles.

Including me? I'm an extraordinary RPer? I'm honored... :cry: (crying 'cuz I'm happy)

Oh, there are a TON of other space nations that rock at RPing, but those are generally the most recognizable names when "space tech" is mentioned.

Well, I'm glad to know that I'm part of this really big club of good RPers...

me personally, i don't rp a lot, i don't have time, but as a rule i think that space nations shouldn't be ignored, i am one, two stardestroyers, and all that and i think the technology is very realistic, possibly only in one hundred years the real earth will have this, and to whomever said that they aren't realistic, how is afew dozen new nations appearing on the world and not taking space from any others qualify as possible

Makes me selectively invunerable. If i did sumthing as mentioned above then i would take the rap. But i dont believe that there are any elves in my nations (makes mental note to check that.) Also i read space rps because they tend to be better than the average mod tech ones because they are mostly done by more experienced nations so i can learn things for my rps. If i provoke them i will fight them, but if they just appear above me and blast the S**t outta me then im gonna launch those big honkin IGNORE missiles.

You wouldn't even have to do that. Alliances like the Triumvirate of Yut, the Chromestar Alliance. etc would come to your aid should some random space nation decided to randomly flex his muslces.

Space tech nations could actually be considered an "elitist" fad, seeing as almost all space nations generally cooperate with eachother.

Also, I'm not telling you what you can and can't ignore, not at all. I'm just saying that the nations using space tech (except fot the godmodding wankers that make us look bad) are responsible, and deserve a chance.

Well, I'm glad to know that I'm part of this really big club of good RPers...

I never said you weren't, I was just listing the names I find most recognizable when it comes to space tech. I could have listed you, me, the entire ToY, the entire Chromestar Alliance, etc, but I'm too lazy. :P

Makes me selectively invunerable. If i did sumthing as mentioned above then i would take the rap. But i dont believe that there are any elves in my nations (makes mental note to check that.) Also i read space rps because they tend to be better than the average mod tech ones because they are mostly done by more experienced nations so i can learn things for my rps. If i provoke them i will fight them, but if they just appear above me and blast the S**t outta me then im gonna launch those big honkin IGNORE missiles.

You wouldn't even have to do that. Alliances like the Triumvirate of Yut, the Chromestar Alliance. etc would come to your aid should some random space nation decided to randomly flez his muslces.

Space tech nations could actually be considered an "elitist" fad, seeing as almost all space nations generally cooperate with eachother.

Also, I'm not telling you what you can and can't ignore, not at all. I'm just saying that the nations using space tech (except fot the godmodding wankers that make us look bad) are responsible, and deserve a chance.

Ok i have to go now but thanks for the arguement, i know it may sound weird but i have enjoyed it and it is causing me to rethink a number of my ways. Once again thank you. I will be back 2moro if u want to continue then lol.

basically they shouldn't be ignored but they don't have to be acknowledged. :?

Ok i have to go now but thanks for the arguement, i know it may sound weird but i have enjoyed it and it is causing me to rethink a number of my ways. Once again thank you. I will be back 2moro if u want to continue then lol.

Thank you too. I enjoy a good debate with someone that can handle it and not resort to flaming or whatnot.

I hope I gave you a better understanding of how us space nations operate.

Others are welcome to comment.

Ok i have to go now but thanks for the arguement, i know it may sound weird but i have enjoyed it and it is causing me to rethink a number of my ways. Once again thank you. I will be back 2moro if u want to continue then lol.

Thank you too. I enjoy a good debate with someone that can handle it and not resort to flaming or whatnot.

I hope I gave you a better understanding of how us space nations operate.

Others are welcome to comment.

You did thank you. Must go now Bye .

The Republic of Tiburon is extremely sorry about the loss of Sakkra's sandwich and is offering to ship you a new one, free of charge.

Pastrami on rye, with brown mustard and alpine-lace swiss cheese.

Anyway, I can see how some argument here rates. But if a 'space' nation comes and blasts you for no good reason, it's a given that that could be ignored. If you do instigate something ICly with said nation, however, you should take your lumps.

BTW, we find jamming a steel bar in the back of the knee-joint for those Gundams really messes them up badly.

Yes. You gotta problem with it LUMP IT.

Then you are missing out.

I have yet to see a stupid, godmodding space nation (well, Foe Hammer, but that's another story).

Most space nations like Angelus, Scolopendra, Menelmacar, Karma, Ma-tek, etc.. are extraordinary RPers. Ignoring them simply because of their tech level is absurd.

Now, see, I'd just like to take the opportunity to point something out: I didn't ignore Angelus because of his tech level. In fact, my space fleets remained destroyed, even after the "ignore" and I still acknowledge it as Angelus' doing.

The reason I ignored him was because he phased his whole fscking fleet into hyperspace to avoid my attack. He did likewise with the WorldDisc. If that isn't sheer godmoddery, then I dont know what is.

Now, see, I'd just like to take the opportunity to point something out: I didn't ignore Angelus because of his tech level. In fact, my space fleets remained destroyed, even after the "ignore" and I still acknowledge it as Angelus' doing.

The reason I ignored him was because he phased his whole fscking fleet into hyperspace to avoid my attack. He did likewise with the WorldDisc. If that isn't sheer godmoddery, then I dont know what is.

Yeah, that was subject to much degate, but what I'm trying to convince the NS community is that space tech should not be ignored because it is more advanced.

BTW, you could have used that whole Angelus teleporting thing as mass propaganda...would have done wonders for troop morale. But, another topic for another day I guess.....

OOC: Sticking my fingers in the mix...

As has been said - blanket ignore's of space tech nations is unreasonable. Here are my reasons why.

You are ignoring the opportunity to RP. A good non-war space tech RP can include mod-tech nations rather easily and it is certainly interesting to see that modern tech character interact with the space tech nation. Case in point:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59243

Though I would put AO at post-modern tech, that is an excellent example of how a modern tech nation could interact with a space tech nation. Without having FTL spaceships and uber-cannons of doom.

Space tech nations can also interact with modern tech nations on their level - it might be a burden to leave your tech behind, but that is a challenge, and that leads to good stories. Spaceship crashes, intelligence work, even covert wars are possible between a space tech nation and a modern tech nation.

Of course if you are just here to play war, this won't really help you. IMO war is boring - it serves at best as a backdrop for character RP and at worse is just a buncha teenagers trying to impress each other.

The thing is, certain space nations have non-godmodding tech that makes it almost impossible for a modern nation to win, and wouldn't even make the lost war a fun RP.

For example:

I have a 5 gigaton warhead. I've only used it once because of the fact that it's so massive (and because I don't want to be called a godmodder in any wars I'm in), but if I got into a war with a modern tech, one shot could kill the whole country. They can't shoot me down before I launch it because I can send it out from around Staurn. They can't defend against it because even if they did shoot it down before it hit the coutry there would still be massive damage. I could kill them without even passing Mars orbit.

I never would do that, but many nations have told me that they are ignoing me and others because I could and that it is amazingly unfair.

The thing is, certain space nations have non-godmodding tech that makes it almost impossible for a modern nation to win, and wouldn't even make the lost war a fun RP.

For example:

I have a 5 gigaton warhead. I've only used it once because of the fact that it's so massive (and because I don't want to be called a godmodder in any wars I'm in), but if I got into a war with a modern tech, one shot could kill the whole country. They can't shoot me down before I launch it because I can send it out from around Staurn. They can't defend against it because even if they did shoot it down before it hit the coutry there would still be massive damage. I could kill them without even passing Mars orbit.

I never would do that, but many nations have told me that they are ignoing me and others because I could and that it is amazingly unfair.

SDI my friend. :wink:

Also, if that's your concern, hook up to my Skynet system. :P

I made it so that all who "link" to it can RP wars noOk free, and it's been 1000% effective.

Now, see, I'd just like to take the opportunity to point something out: I didn't ignore Angelus because of his tech level. In fact, my space fleets remained destroyed, even after the "ignore" and I still acknowledge it as Angelus' doing.

The reason I ignored him was because he phased his whole fscking fleet into hyperspace to avoid my attack. He did likewise with the WorldDisc. If that isn't sheer godmoddery, then I dont know what is.

Yeah, that was subject to much degate, but what I'm trying to convince the NS community is that space tech should not be ignored because it is more advanced.

BTW, you could have used that whole Angelus teleporting thing as mass propaganda...would have done wonders for troop morale. But, another topic for another day I guess.....

Troop morale doesn't solve the prblem of my enemy making his ships disapper every time I fire at them

SDI? I don't know that abbreviation (Something's telling me I really should)

And I joined SkyNet a few weeks ago (I left a few million people on earth when I went space)

Now, see, I'd just like to take the opportunity to point something out: I didn't ignore Angelus because of his tech level. In fact, my space fleets remained destroyed, even after the "ignore" and I still acknowledge it as Angelus' doing.

The reason I ignored him was because he phased his whole fscking fleet into hyperspace to avoid my attack. He did likewise with the WorldDisc. If that isn't sheer godmoddery, then I dont know what is.

Yeah, that was subject to much degate, but what I'm trying to convince the NS community is that space tech should not be ignored because it is more advanced.

BTW, you could have used that whole Angelus teleporting thing as mass propaganda...would have done wonders for troop morale. But, another topic for another day I guess.....

Troop morale doesn't solve the problem of my enemy making his ships disapper every time I fire at them. Good troop morale doesn't shoot down spacecraft :evil:

Now, see, I'd just like to take the opportunity to point something out: I didn't ignore Angelus because of his tech level. In fact, my space fleets remained destroyed, even after the "ignore" and I still acknowledge it as Angelus' doing.

The reason I ignored him was because he phased his whole fscking fleet into hyperspace to avoid my attack. He did likewise with the WorldDisc. If that isn't sheer godmoddery, then I dont know what is.

Yeah, that was subject to much degate, but what I'm trying to convince the NS community is that space tech should not be ignored because it is more advanced.

BTW, you could have used that whole Angelus teleporting thing as mass propaganda...would have done wonders for troop morale. But, another topic for another day I guess.....

Troop morale doesn't solve the problem of my enemy making his ships disapper every time I fire at them. Good troop morale doesn't shoot down spacecraft :evil:

Troop morale doesn't solve the problem of my enemy making his ships disapper every time I fire at them. Good troop morale doesn't shoot down spacecraft :evil:

Yeah, but it's all done and over with now.

My ground artillery can target, fire, hit and destroy a battleship 30 miles off coast. Actually, even 50 nautical miles.

50mm -- Anti-air, anti-tank, light bombardment... 15 km
90mm -- Anti-air, anti-tank, light bombardment... 25 km
120mm -- Main bombardment cannon, also anti-air, anti-tank... 50 km
170mm -- Large howitzer for less precise demolition... 30 km
200mm -- A strong cannon that will destroy targets up to 100 km.
400mm -- Supergun. Can attack starships. Can fire at ground targets up to 500 km.

In addition I have developed a laser gun system that can attempt to shoot down missiles, but the main purpose is to destroy starships to pieces. This is possible due to discovery of fusion which will in time replace fission totally.

We are also developing a starfighter for orbital patrol. It will have a hybrid pulse detonation engine. Pulse detonation is new technology which allows our fighters to fly mach 5 in atmosphere. We use synthetic fuel these days. This fuel is mass produced with the help of fusion energy. The fuel has a lot of energy in it, giving more range for our fighters.


...? It's a game...

My ground artillery can target, fire, hit and destroy a battleship 30 miles off coast. Actually, even 50 nautical miles.

50mm -- Anti-air, anti-tank, light bombardment... 15 km
90mm -- Anti-air, anti-tank, light bombardment... 25 km
120mm -- Main bombardment cannon, also anti-air, anti-tank... 50 km
170mm -- Large howitzer for less precise demolition... 30 km
200mm -- A strong cannon that will destroy targets up to 100 km.
400mm -- Supergun. Can attack starships. Can fire at ground targets up to 500 km.

In addition I have developed a laser gun system that can attempt to shoot down missiles, but the main purpose is to destroy starships to pieces. This is possible due to discovery of fusion which will in time replace fission totally.

We are also developing a starfighter for orbital patrol. It will have a hybrid pulse detonation engine. Pulse detonation is new technology which allows our fighters to fly mach 5 in atmosphere. We use synthetic fuel these days. This fuel is mass produced with the help of fusion energy. The fuel has a lot of energy in it, giving more range for our fighters.


...? It's a game...

And you post this like I care? This isn't a thread to advertise or brag about your "tech".

Good old days in April when there were about 10 space nations, all in the SFNA.Ah good old days BEFORE April where Titan was one of the only space regions, home of ToY.
And no, we weren't in SFNA.

Triumvirate of Yut for all your top quality space rping needs 8)

My feelings-

Space tech is not nessecarily more advanced. Mallberta has refrained from leaving Earth, for various reasons, but I'm more than a match technologically speaking for most space nations.

This is basically my opinion:

1) Space nations have an intrinsic advantage over Earth based nations in one way only- mobility. Other than that, there is no real difference. My weapons are at least as powerful as any space nation. My army/navy/airforce should actually be much more developed than a space nation, as the assets others put into space, I retained on land. I've developed my technology in such a way that space craft, particularly capital ships, present little threat.

2) I don't care if you megawatt death lasers of doom. My guns are as good as yours. No nation should have invunerable shields or ships- if I shoot you with a conventional missle, good RPing dictates you take the hit. The whole world disc teleport buisness is, in my opinion, the epitome of poor RP. Angelus didn't use cleverness or intelligence to win, rather he fell back on his gadgets (much like the average Star Trek episode)

Providing that a space nation realizes their interplanetary mobility does not translate into some kind of combat advantage, I have no problems with space nations.

*tag*

At least I dont have to bother ignoring space because about 75% of all space countries ignore me.



So nice of them, really.

My nation uses spacetech, but only the spacetech that the real world has (or ought to have if politicians weren't morons- but that's another rant). If an item exists in the real world, or the science has been subjected to peer review and published in an established publication, then it is fair game.

Fusion power, hand-held man-killing beam weapons, FTL, gravity generators, room-temperature superconductors, et cetera, are not things that exist in the real world. These things exist- if they are possible at all- in some far future time (and time travel doesn't exist in the real world either). If some ubertech nation decides to send a fleet to destroy the Earth, my opinion is that they are obviously trying to do so several centuries or millennia in the future, and therefore it is none of my concern. This is not the same as IGNORING, it is just SEP.

Well-played spacetech is not god-moding. If you are an tech nation and manage to roleplay a technologically-consistent scenario, I will read and enjoy it. OTOH, having a teenage male on your ship who magically creates whole new technologies in a poorly equipped laboratory [i]just in time to save the day is not roleplaying well. Far too many nations- with or without spacetech- play this way.

I find the greatest challenge in trying to project overwhelming force using little known or little-exploited real-world technology. I take a great deal of care to ensure that my technology is 'reality-checked' (for lack of a better term). That is, all of the technology I use in my scenarios works as closely as possible to how it would in real life.

In real life, someone in orbit who shoots a firearm will instantly become well acquainted with Newton's Third Law of Motion. Too few roleplayers bother to pay attention to little details like that.

But- like the man said- the Devil is in the details.

My nation uses spacetech, but only the spacetech that the real world has (or ought to have if politicians weren't morons- but that's another rant). If an item exists in the real world, or the science has been subjected to peer review and published in an established publication, then it is fair game.

Fusion power, hand-held man-killing beam weapons, FTL, gravity generators, room-temperature superconductors, et cetera, are not things that exist in the real world. These things exist- if they are possible at all- in some far future time (and time travel doesn't exist in the real world either). If some ubertech nation decides to send a fleet to destroy the Earth, my opinion is that they are obviously trying to do so several centuries or millennia in the future, and therefore it is none of my concern. This is not the same as IGNORING, it is just SEP.

Well-played spacetech is not god-moding. If you are an tech nation and manage to roleplay a technologically-consistent scenario, I will read and enjoy it. OTOH, having a teenage male on your ship who magically creates whole new technologies in a poorly equipped laboratory [i]just in time to save the day is not roleplaying well. Far too many nations- with or without spacetech- play this way.

I find the greatest challenge in trying to project overwhelming force using little known or little-exploited real-world technology. I take a great deal of care to ensure that my technology is 'reality-checked' (for lack of a better term). That is, all of the technology I use in my scenarios works as closely as possible to how it would in real life.

In real life, someone in orbit who shoots a firearm will instantly become well acquainted with Newton's Third Law of Motion. Too few roleplayers bother to pay attention to little details like that.

But- like the man said- the Devil is in the details.

OOC: I don't got a problem with this stuff, just when people tell me I can't kill a floating tank with an LAW delivered to the anti-grav thingies. As long as I can take a cyborg down with a 5.56mm to the skull, I'm fine with it. As long as people don't tell me that bullets can't penetrate the armor on something, I'm okay. I just get pissed when conventional, modern-day stuff that actually exsists can't touch something that won't become avaliable for purchase until 500 years into the future. To sum it up: I can kill advanced stuff = :D

Your reasonings have a big flaw... not everyone plays NS from start to finish, medieval to future. nations like me are either permanently future, or permanently modern, or permanently medieval.

Your analogy of America attacking african bushmen is incorrect, the more correct analogy would be the galactic empire attacking medieval france.

If I want to play realistic modern, as long as I don't start the fights, I can ignore elves, vampires, demons, and space tech all i want.

Then there are nation like Wazzu, who insist on hard Sci-Fi, and ignore anyone who uses FTL (for reasons I still don't understand, but oh well)

Take my space station accident RP that went wrong because a future tech wanted to join in, but I wouldn't let him. My space station was decreasing orbit rapidly, and I wanted a way to fix the orbit using modern tech means. he came in and used a tractor beam... ignored... see?

Every technology is out for sale on NS. Which technology you chose to buy tells you which nations you should RP with.

I mean, i could easily go bomb a civil war nation... but I don't.

Ignoring nations with advanced space-tech is stupid. Ignoring nations with godmoddery space tech is a rule. There are quite a lot of active nations in NS, expanding to space is only natural. It adds more depth and more un-explored lands to adventure to, there are no real boundaries to expansion unlike on earth. Fighting a space nation on the other hand can be tricky. True an M16 will kill you just as dead as a railgun but if the space nation has some powered armor infantry, the lower tech nation is effectively screwed if it uses M16's. Power armors when kept to certain limits are certainly not godmodding and can be defeated, but not easilly with modern tech weapons. Ofcourse if the lower tech nation attacked the space nation without the latter provocating the lower tech nation in any way, they deserve to be handed their ass on the platter. But on the other hand it certainly cant be tolerated that high tech nations would just go vaping anybody they like. The choice for everyone is their own ofcourse. If someone wants to stay at the modern tech age fine, they can and if someone wants to remain at the middle ages sure why not. But thats no reason for ignoring everyone with higher technological level. Also you must consider is there any need to ignore them. I mean what would a space faring nation with mines and colonies on other planets benefit from destroying a middle age nation? Absolutely nothing. And the benefit of blowing up a significantly lower tech nation is hardly worth the trouble. And as mentioned earlier, if there are even 5 powerfull space nations upholding a treaty that permits them to engage another space nation if it is on a conquering spree and just generally wiping out every lower tech nation just for the heck of it.

Im not too fond of all the star system blowing über bombs around and starships which's shields just shrug off few hundred megaton fusion nukes without flinching. Other things im not too much fond of are the magical phasing systems which make missiles invurnelable to point-defense and EW and ships invurnelable to incoming fire. Space tech can be very tough even without the über phallic stuff and the ridicolous technobabblor weapons. Everything can be beaten, and trying to avoid being beaten by using technobabble, is IMHO godmodding. But one cannot be accused of godmodding if he has technology that protects him from missiles to a certain degree and has defenses which make his spacecraft have some advantages.

And about that orbital bombardment, well people if the enemy uses missiles then may i represent you to something called a counter-missile.

Anyways, i support Automagfreek fully and agree with his opinion. If a lower tech nations gets into a situation where he will go to war with another much more advanced nation, and if the war is justified for the high tech nation, you cannot just simply ignore him. Fight and try to win but i'd suggest try to obtain some ordnance on-par with the opponents or allies at closely the same technological level. I've noticed that it has come very usual to ignore everyone who has even slightly futuristic tech that can defeat your own stuff.

Also, i thought this as fitting to the subject http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/villerainamo/Index.htm über future tech or not, you decide but i wanted to be a futuristic nation because i live in a modern time world and i see it everywhere, i dont want to RP it too.

It's too advanced!

I know it's a shame that somebody else has bigger toys than you, but it's happens. I'm sure the Bushmen of Afrcia wouldn't "ignore" an attack by US, Russian, or Brittish troops, and that would be basically spear vs gun. Superior tech is out there in RL too.


That's not a good example. It's one thing to attack a nation less advanced in you in the same time era, BUT TIME TRAVELING 200 YEARS IS QUITE ANOTHER STORY.

And FYI, Ethiopia uses Su-27's. I'm sure all african countries are backwards and still use cow hide shields! And chuck spears!

It's too advanced!

I know it's a shame that somebody else has bigger toys than you, but it's happens. I'm sure the Bushmen of Afrcia wouldn't "ignore" an attack by US, Russian, or Brittish troops, and that would be basically spear vs gun. Superior tech is out there in RL too.


That's not a good example. It's one thing to attack a nation less advanced in you in the same time era, BUT TIME TRAVELING 200 YEARS IS QUITE ANOTHER STORY.

And FYI, Ethiopia uses Su-27's. I'm sure all african countries are backwards and still use cow hide shields! And chuck spears!In a related story, General Lee had to stop fighting the civil war, because his attention has been drawn towards the large star destroyer that just dropped 10,000 elven stormtroopers with heavy laser rifles and deflector shields.

That's not a good example. It's one thing to attack a nation less advanced in you in the same time era, BUT TIME TRAVELING 200 YEARS IS QUITE ANOTHER STORY.

And FYI, Ethiopia uses Su-27's. I'm sure all african countries are backwards and still use cow hide shields! And chuck spears!

You don't seem to understand that this is not real life. There is not a set timeframe that everybody coincides with, therefore, ancient Egypt era nations interact with uber tech nations. It happens because this is not real life.

Oh, and FYI, the Bushmen are still a primitive African people. They have no knowlegde of cars, planes, TV, nothing.

That's not a good example. It's one thing to attack a nation less advanced in you in the same time era, BUT TIME TRAVELING 200 YEARS IS QUITE ANOTHER STORY.

And FYI, Ethiopia uses Su-27's. I'm sure all african countries are backwards and still use cow hide shields! And chuck spears!

You don't seem to understand that this is not real life. There is not a set timeframe that everybody coincides with, therefore, ancient Egypt era nations interact with uber tech nations. It happens because this is not real life.

Oh, and FYI, the Bushmen are still a primitive African people. They have no knowlegde of cars, planes, TV, nothing.*roll* some people play like you, some people don't. You think there is only one universe in nationstates? lol there are many realms. I am relatively new, and even I can grasp this.

My nation uses spacetech, but only the spacetech that the real world has (or ought to have if politicians weren't morons- but that's another rant). If an item exists in the real world, or the science has been subjected to peer review and published in an established publication, then it is fair game.

Ditto. Hard sci-fi all the way.

Fusion power, hand-held man-killing beam weapons, FTL, gravity generators, room-temperature superconductors, et cetera, are not things that exist in the real world.

Fusion power and FTL have both been shown to be within the laws of physics, hence I don't mind their use. But any incarnation of them that I use myself will always remain comparatively primitive, and in accordance with the most up-to-date physical knowledge available.

Hence, no stars streaking by outside. And I spin my ships if I need gravity.

That's not a good example. It's one thing to attack a nation less advanced in you in the same time era, BUT TIME TRAVELING 200 YEARS IS QUITE ANOTHER STORY.

And FYI, Ethiopia uses Su-27's. I'm sure all african countries are backwards and still use cow hide shields! And chuck spears!

You don't seem to understand that this is not real life. There is not a set timeframe that everybody coincides with, therefore, ancient Egypt era nations interact with uber tech nations. It happens because this is not real life.

Oh, and FYI, the Bushmen are still a primitive African people. They have no knowlegde of cars, planes, TV, nothing.*roll* some people play like you, some people don't. You think there is only one universe in nationstates? lol there are many realms. I am relatively new, and even I can grasp this.

there are many realms. I am relatively new, and even I can grasp this.

That's the point. And those realms intersect quite readily.

I think I like Scolopendra's explanation of the NS universe the best. Space-time is fractured. thus you can have tens of thousands of nations on earth, each with hunderds of millions of people. thus you can have a medieval nation conducting trade with a race of spacegoing electronic intelligences. it all works that way.

-Kelvinisgrad: An island of stupidity in a rolling sea of insanity.

I only have 1 non-existant technology, which is router space. It's whole purpose is to make RP with deep space nations feasible.

Not to mention it's major involvment with 2 upcoming plotlines.

That's not a good example. It's one thing to attack a nation less advanced in you in the same time era, BUT TIME TRAVELING 200 YEARS IS QUITE ANOTHER STORY.

And FYI, Ethiopia uses Su-27's. I'm sure all african countries are backwards and still use cow hide shields! And chuck spears!

You don't seem to understand that this is not real life. There is not a set timeframe that everybody coincides with, therefore, ancient Egypt era nations interact with uber tech nations. It happens because this is not real life.

Oh, and FYI, the Bushmen are still a primitive African people. They have no knowlegde of cars, planes, TV, nothing.
Then 1 day old nations can have huge fleets of space ships because this isn't real life!

If you're one of these nations that goes around "shit stirring" (looking for trouble)Well, I'm not.
Space nations generally don't go around picking fights, because most of the time, we'll be ignored because our tech is higher.So if everyone decided your arguments were good and stopped ignoring space tech, you'd start going around picking fights?
As stated by me before: "If an alien lands in your backyard and bitch slaps you, can you simply look at him and say I ignore you?" No, you can't.Sure, I can.
there is no denying that superior tech is out there, and to do so is just plain silly.Superior tech is fine with me (well, not really...:D), but I don't like playing with impossible tech or things that although possible, would be much to expensive to have.
Look at it this way, if a battleship is parked 30 miles off your coast, it'll be able to hit you, but ground artillery couldn't touch it.Yes, it can. Remember that time I gave someone you were fighting Pelican ammunition? I could also launch missiles instead of firing tube artillery.
Phalanax (sp?)For future reference, it's Phalanx.
how would that be diferent than a turbolaser firing at the same missile?A missile that can make it into space and still carry a dangerous payload would be a very big target.
Growing by 5 million even in a year is absurd.Yea, Nianacio is large enough to grow in a year by tens of millions.
You can't just say that you'll only ignore them if they attack you, that's godmodding.Not fair, maybe, but not godmoding.
how is afew dozen new nations appearing on the world and not taking space from any others qualify as possibleI'm not quite sure if I read this right, but if I did: They take the space of the nations that ceased to exist.
And you post this like I care? This isn't a thread to advertise or brag about your "tech".I believe Forconnen was arguing against something you posted.
My nation uses spacetech, but only the spacetech that the real world has (or ought to have if politicians weren't morons- but that's another rant). If an item exists in the real world, or the science has been subjected to peer review and published in an established publication, then it is fair game.Ditto.
Well-played spacetech is not god-moding.It can be very well played, but still impossible and godmoding.
Then there are nation like Wazzu, who insist on hard Sci-Fi, and ignore anyone who uses FTL (for reasons I still don't understand, but oh well)Interesting; I did not know this.
I mean, i could easily go bomb a civil war nation... but I don't.I sure wish someone would do something to my other, low-tech nation...None of the warmongering nations are on when I post on it.
*roll* some people play like you, some people don't. You think there is only one universe in nationstates? lol there are many realms.Ditto.

The whole world disc teleport buisness is, in my opinion, the epitome of poor RP. Angelus didn't use cleverness or intelligence to win, rather he fell back on his gadgets (much like the average Star Trek episode)

I'm tired of hearing this. Okay, I know I'm going to get reamed for this but:
As far as I know, the people involved in the RP, on both sides, had no objections, or few objections to Angelian FTL capabilities, and even if they did, choose to RP with Angelus anyways.

While you can debate the RP merits of this until you're blue in the face, retreating is not nessicarily bad RP.
Retreat is a viable and useful tactic
If one has the ability to avoid damage and death, then it only makes sense to do so.

For instance:
Certain destruction is coming straight at you, you have two options:
A) Stay put and "take it like a man."
or
B) Get out of the way.

If you choose A), then you're an idiot.
If you choose B), congratulations, you used your brain.

The two most basic principles of war are: Causing death, and avoiding death. Destroying your enemy, and avoiding you're enemies attempts at killing you.
Offense, and defense.
Defense isn't just how much armor you have, manuverability plays a large role in defense.
Evasive actions are a defensive manuver. You cannot kill, what you cannot hit.

I'm sorry, I realize this was largely off topic, but I'm tired of hearing everyone say "such and such's evasive action was bad RPing."
Avoidance is as important, if not more important to defense than armor and other defensive systems.

Back on topic:

It's freeform RP, no one can force you to do anything.

Yes. You gotta problem with it LUMP IT.

Then you are missing out.

I have yet to see a stupid, godmodding space nation (well, Foe Hammer, but that's another story).

Most space nations like Angelus, Scolopendra, Menelmacar, Karma, Ma-tek, etc.. are extraordinary RPers. Ignoring them simply because of their tech level is absurd.

Now, see, I'd just like to take the opportunity to point something out: I didn't ignore Angelus because of his tech level. In fact, my space fleets remained destroyed, even after the "ignore" and I still acknowledge it as Angelus' doing.

The reason I ignored him was because he phased his whole fscking fleet into hyperspace to avoid my attack. He did likewise with the WorldDisc. If that isn't sheer godmoddery, then I dont know what is.

Well, his entire fleet in hyperspace means his homeplanet/land is undefended. Pillage and burn! :twisted:

He does not have a homeplanet, the WorldDisc is his home.

I play near-future. Fusion, anti-gravity and lasers is high tech, but exists. I'm not a space nation, but eventually, I'll probably go there, simply because I like scifi. I haven't been in any wars yet, nor do I plan to.

The problems with two nations of different tech level should be easily resolvable between sensible parties. If one side is not, there is cause to ignore it.

1) You can roleplay and godmod at the same time.
2) Godmodding does not make you a bad roleplayer, just a player who isn't fun to play with. Just like poor roleplaying does not make you a godmodder, just a player who isn't fun to play with.
3) I laugh at people who claim that it takes 15 minutes for a space ship to accelerate over 500 kilometres with even vaguely efficient engines.

/me laughs

There. Done.

Even though I know this is in the same ballbark as Nintendo and Sony, Ford and Chevy, Liberal and Conservative (IE: almost pointless to debate), I'm still going to voice my opinion, even though I count on being shot down.

Points made against space tech:

It's unfair: How so? If you're one of these nations that goes around "shit stirring" (looking for trouble), and you step on the toes of a big space nation, expect to get an interstellar ass whooping. Space nations generally don't go around picking fights, because most of the time, we'll be ignored because our tech is higher.

As stated by me before: "If an alien lands in your backyard and bitch slaps you, can you simply look at him and say I ignore you?" No, you can't. there is no denying that superior tech is out there, and to do so is just plain silly.

I undertand that M-16's and pulse rifles are 2 totally different things, but whatever happended to the statement about "An AK-47 can kill you just as dead as a charged particle cannon."? A terrorist with an RPG is more than a match for a cyborg, it all boils down to tactics.

I can't fight back: Sure you can. The #1 complaint about orbital bombardments is that people can't return fire. Look at it this way, if a battleship is parked 30 miles off your coast, it'll be able to hit you, but ground artillery couldn't touch it. Same thing goes for orbital stikes: the ordinance is falling on top of you either way. Does it matter if it's 30 miles off in the water, or the same distance but above you?

But, one could say: well, I could shoot missiles at the battleship, but not the starcruiser! That may be true, but try using conventional ICBM's, scramjet missiles, anything. A Phalanax (sp?) vulcan gun system (that's on battleships and carriers) can take down ALOT of anti-ship missiles, so how would that be diferent than a turbolaser firing at the same missile?

It's too advanced!

I know it's a shame that somebody else has bigger toys than you, but it's happens. I'm sure the Bushmen of Afrcia wouldn't "ignore" an attack by US, Russian, or Brittish troops, and that would be basically spear vs gun. Superior tech is out there in RL too.



But, sadly, this is a freeform RP forum, so you have the right to ignore anything you'd like, to a degree. But I personally think it's poor practice to ignore space tech simply because it's more advanced. The aliens in Independance Day got their asses whooped by humans in jet fighters, and by 1 nuclear bomb. And all their uber shielding, laser guns, cyborg-like body suits, and mega large space ships did them no good, they still lost.

Every space tech nation knows that there are always weaknesses with their tech, and there has to be, so keep that in mind.


:Now open for criticism:
this all depends on the exact particulars of the space tech, and who is RPing it.I wouldn't ignore Wazzu, but i might ignore somebody who comes up with a uber-space army invulnerable to most of my arsenal.
EDIT:meant to post as Cirdanistan.

I find one fault with this "if you have space tech then you don't exist in my time" argument. There are those of us space nations who developed space tech after a long time of being modern tech. Hell, I build all of my stuff instead of just going on a massive shopping spree and suddenly claiming that I have a fleet. You can't claim that I wasn't modern tech, and to a certain extent I still am. I have conventional fighters, tanks, and warships and still have all of my Earth territory.

I think that people ignore nations with space capability because they can't think of a way to take out spaceships with their modern tech weapons, not because space tech is so vastly superior.

I think that people ignore nations with space capability because they can't think of a way to take out spaceships with their modern tech weapons, not because space tech is so vastly superior.Basically, I don't RP with space nations because I'm here for the realistic nations with real technology. Most of the spaceships I've seen have ridiculous features, would cost far too much to acquire even if possible, and wouldn't be available in Nianacio's time period, anyway.

I think that people ignore nations with space capability because they can't think of a way to take out spaceships with their modern tech weapons, not because space tech is so vastly superior.

OOC: Depends upon the technology gap. A single ISD (the "real kind" not any cardboard cut-outs) could devastate the entire earth. If I had that kind of power I literally could take over the world and I'm not Hannibal by any stretch of the imagination.

If we take Automag's word for what it is, that is, you can't ignore space tech, then is it any wonder that folks in NS are buying up space toys at the local 7-11? They do it just to stay "alive", not for making interesting roleplays. It's a hopeless space race that has gripped NS.

Well i'd say that trying to slag the entire Earth ISD style would be definately rather unwise. For there are numerous powerfull space faring nations in the Sol system and they propably would not like that. But anyways some alliance which would enforce an agreed set of rules when it comes to space-faring nations could basically ensure that no space-tech nation just randomly goes on a conquering spree.

Well i'd say that trying to slag the entire Earth ISD style would be definately rather unwise. For there are numerous powerfull space faring nations in the Sol system and they propably would not like that. But anyways some alliance which would enforce an agreed set of rules when it comes to space-faring nations could basically ensure that no space-tech nation just randomly goes on a conquering spree.

OOC:

The point, Clairmont, which you obviously missed, is that if the gap is too great it is nearly impossible for tech level "A" to beat tech level "Z". That's why people build in weakenesses so others don't get so pissed off at them.

If you noticed i made that very same point myself in my first post at this thread. If the opponent has a division worth of powered armor infantry, the modern age opponent will be screwed. Not to mention if the opponent has some futuristic MBT's with railguns as their main guns.

I did not miss your point, i merely pointed out that trying to bomd the earth to hell would not be wise. Ofcourse it is true that when the technological gap is too great then there simply is no chance of victory, hell even a friggin 6 year old understands that if driver A has a Ferrari and driver B has a Volkswagen, Driver A is going to win.

And the build in weaknesses is actually a good idea. I do it myself for my stuff. And there simply is no piece of equipment that would not have a weakness. Having something which has no weaknesses whatsoever is godmodding.

If you noticed i made that very same point myself in my first post at this thread. If the opponent has a division worth of powered armor infantry, the modern age opponent will be screwed. Not to mention if the opponent has some futuristic MBT's with railguns as their main guns.

I did not miss your point, i merely pointed out that trying to bomd the earth to hell would not be wise. Ofcourse it is true that when the technological gap is too great then there simply is no chance of victory, hell even a friggin 6 year old understands that if driver A has a Ferrari and driver B has a Volkswagen, Driver A is going to win.

And the build in weaknesses is actually a good idea. I do it myself for my stuff. And there simply is no piece of equipment that would not have a weakness. Having something which has no weaknesses whatsoever is godmodding.

OOC: Then we are in agreement in that a modern tech nation should be able to ignore a space tech nation due to overwhelming advantages in a direct military confrontation.

I would agree on that.

Where I come from, orbitally emplaced batteries, huge coilguns, fusion powered anythings, even space-constructed materials all give the space nation an overwhelming military advantage. Take your own nation. Arm it with modern tanks and missiles. Now imagine your nation with hovering ships and ass-tech powered missiles, bombing your modern tech nation from orbit with total impunity. Doesn't quite seem on equal grounds, does it?

There's no law that says space tech should be just blindly accepted-- there is no mention of it in the issues or nation descriptions. Space tech in fact, pretty much WAS ignored by the majority of NS until more recently. Why? Because this is not a sci fi nation sim, just a nation sim. Some people want to play with sci fi rules, and thats fine. Some want to do medieval rules. Still others just want uber--realism and so declare their nations only have 10% the populations NS says they do. Do they all have to play together? No. Is there anything anyone can say that can force these people all to play together? No. End discussion! :D

Even if that low-tech nation is responsible for the war? No, i do not agree. But IMHO, the higher-tech nation should not use its full capacity when fighting a lower tech nation. It should reduce its full capabilities to some degree. For instance not to use spacecraft to conduct orbital bombardment, not use powered armor, not to use anything that could alone bitchslap the lower tech nation six days from sunday. But ignoring them just because they are higher tech is simply stupid, and the higher tech nation should definately get some definite advantages of its high tech but for the sake of sanity, refrain from using full capabilities. In essence for example using Dropships would propably be Ok, afterall they are just cargo craft with VTOL capability. Things like HUD's for the regular Infantry troopers would also be ok. Aircraft with considerably more speed and higher ceiling would also be ok (as long as they are not in the area of 500% better than those of the lower tech nation), and stuff like that.

And then there is yet the point that if the lower tech nation is hundreds or perhaps even a thousand years behind in tech compared to the futuristic tech nation, then there is no real benefit for the futuristic nation to fight the lower tech nation and there is really no point nor situation where the two reasonably would end up in a conflict against each other.

The other thing is defning what exactly is space tech. Some folks will ignore any spacecraft with a gun, but heck, whats to stop NASA from arming the space shuttle? And the tech for orbital missle platforms exsists now as well, just lacks the poltical will to do it.

Even if that low-tech nation is responsible for the war? No, i do not agree. But IMHO, the higher-tech nation should not use its full capacity when fighting a lower tech nation. It should reduce its full capabilities to some degree. For instance not to use spacecraft to conduct orbital bombardment, not use powered armor, not to use anything that could alone bitchslap the lower tech nation six days from sunday. But ignoring them just because they are higher tech is simply stupid, and the higher tech nation should definately get some definite advantages of its high tech but for the sake of sanity, refrain from using full capabilities. In essence for example using Dropships would propably be Ok, afterall they are just cargo craft with VTOL capability. Things like HUD's for the regular Infantry troopers would also be ok. Aircraft with considerably more speed and higher ceiling would also be ok (as long as they are not in the area of 500% better than those of the lower tech nation), and stuff like that.

OOC: The best way I've found to deal with someone jerking your chain is to ignore them. Sooner or later they find out that they themselves are indeed morons. Your solution, Clairmont, would work if the involved parties could actually agree to that. Sadly, that is rarely the case.

The other thing is defning what exactly is space tech. Some folks will ignore any spacecraft with a gun, but heck, whats to stop NASA from arming the space shuttle? And the tech for orbital missle platforms exsists now as well, just lacks the poltical will to do it.

OOC: I agree. It's a fuzzy area but I've found that the more advanced the tech = the more advanced the BS.

The problem there is its' ICly just... wrong. ICly, if I have tech, I will not be dumbing it down for any reason in a war. And I have no "mid-realistic" tech level, I can do modern or space.

Nations that are modern and start wars with high tech ones? If they OOCly knew the latter was high tech, there is zero reason I can see not to allow anything (as long as its not godmodding, of course). If they didn't know, however, then I suggest the war simply not happen. There are plenty of good war RP opportunities, starting with total ignorance is usually not the best one.

And its not about higher tech-- granted multiple tech levels can exist in RL. but, its about what is acceptable to the player as "real" in the NS context. If its just not acceptable then there's no point trying to force it. Its not fun. In the end it's about fun and what is acceptable to the players involved.

I would agree on that.

Where I come from, orbitally emplaced batteries, huge coilguns, fusion powered anythings, even space-constructed materials all give the space nation an overwhelming military advantage. Take your own nation. Arm it with modern tanks and missiles. Now imagine your nation with hovering ships and ass-tech powered missiles, bombing your modern tech nation from orbit with total impunity. Doesn't quite seem on equal grounds, does it?

There's no law that says space tech should be just blindly accepted-- there is no mention of it in the issues or nation descriptions. Space tech in fact, pretty much WAS ignored by the majority of NS until more recently. Why? Because this is not a sci fi nation sim, just a nation sim. Some people want to play with sci fi rules, and thats fine. Some want to do medieval rules. Still others just want uber--realism and so declare their nations only have 10% the populations NS says they do. Do they all have to play together? No. Is there anything anyone can say that can force these people all to play together? No. End discussion! :D

OOC: Succinct as always! Excellent!

I think a lot of people are missing a key point of RP here:

It's my nation, I do what I want with it.

There's no rule saying noone can have a space nation. There's no rules saying space nations can't interact with other nations. Heck, there's no rules saying a space nation has to hold back in a war against a modern tech nation, though to throw the might of entire galaxies at someone like that would be pretty bad RPing. You don't like space nations, you DEAL WITH IT.

But you know what? Modern nations can make full use of this key point as well. If I'm minding my business, maybe involved in a small war with some other modern nations, and a unrealistically advanced nation (not that I'm saying any of you are!) decides to drop millions of robots and laser blasts on my head, I have no obligation to deal with it. Its my nation, and if I don't want to have it reduced to rubble, then it ain't gonna be reduced to rubble. Of course, if I was the one who went off to engage the space nation in the first place, I can't back out of what I started. But not all players here are perfect, and there are space nations get involved in fights where, in all respect, they are not welcome. At that point, I wouldn't care if there's some elaborate weakness built into any of your equipment. A good RP becomes a bad RP at the moment where the participants stop enjoying themselves. I'm not going to sit there and argue with you when you overpower every one of my moves and tell me "You're just not trying hard enough / You're not attacking in the right place". If a modern age nation wants only to RP with other modern age nations, then a space nation has NO RIGHT to argue with him.



My 2 cents.

<tag, for future comment>

Well, reading more carefully through this thread, I can see that a lot of people do have the right idea. Nonetheless, some people may see this thread as an excuse for a whole genre of nations to do whatever they want to whoever they want. And that's just wrong.

The only real solution i can figure out for the problem is the tech reduction. Nations need to interact with each other, despite their technological disparities. But if that interaction means a war then the combat must be so that the other side atleast has a small chance of doing actual damage. Ofcourse reducing the tech ICly is not realistic but realism is often sacrificed for game balance by game developers too.

Also as noted i doubt that any space faring nation will be going into war against some modern tech or medieval tech just for the heck of it. Afterall there is little to be gained from such a war for the higher tech nation. But also if a somewhat post modern tech nation (year 2000 + 50-75 or so years) gets involved in a war where all the other nations are some half a century behind him, there is no real reason to ignore him as long as he doesnt bring in energy shields for ground troops etc. you get the idea. Basically not just ignore someone who brings sub-fighters into a naval combat and so on.

But anyway, this is a difficult subject with no easy solution for it.

The only way I'll ever fight a modern tech nation with my future tech is if it is a larger one who is picking on one of my smaller modern tech allies. If he ignores me then...he shall be ignored for not playing fair. Oh I love irony.

My nation has no military :D yes we are in space but we don't have FTL drives, we don't have artifical gravity (Yet), we have no weapons or really large warships, and heck we don't have fusion just advance Fission.

So I don't have to worry about being ignored in a war mainly as I would be trying to talk nations out of it (Not an easy thing to do...so I haven't tryed to do it yet).

I don't ignore space tech. If a space tech nation were to attack me, I wouldn't ignore it. That's just childish and immature. I would deal with it, call up some allies, and perhaps luanch a counter-offence, or if I'm not feeling like going to war, I'll try the diplomatic approach. My nation already has rockets similiar to Titan IIs, (Think "Deep Impact") and my scientists are currently developing the tech to construct armed satalites to deploy in space above my nation as a first line of defense. Ultimately, I wanna get something like the Big Barrier and the seven layers of defense from Nadesico going on, but I'm afraid some peeps might think that's godmodding. Hmmm... Anyone here ever seen Martian Successor Nadesico? Would the Big Barrier be considered Godmod?

Even if that low-tech nation is responsible for the war? No, i do not agree. But IMHO, the higher-tech nation should not use its full capacity when fighting a lower tech nation. It should reduce its full capabilities to some degree. For instance not to use spacecraft to conduct orbital bombardment, not use powered armor, not to use anything that could alone bitchslap the lower tech nation six days from sunday. But ignoring them just because they are higher tech is simply stupid, and the higher tech nation should definately get some definite advantages of its high tech but for the sake of sanity, refrain from using full capabilities. In essence for example using Dropships would propably be Ok, afterall they are just cargo craft with VTOL capability. Things like HUD's for the regular Infantry troopers would also be ok. Aircraft with considerably more speed and higher ceiling would also be ok (as long as they are not in the area of 500% better than those of the lower tech nation), and stuff like that.
ive got a better idea...do as Calarca does in the WWII-tech RPs, and have the space nation RP it's PRE-SPACE HISTORY, so that instead of using it's spaceships it uses a tech level equivalent to it's adversary.

I don't ignore space tech. If a space tech nation were to attack me, I wouldn't ignore it. That's just childish and immature. I would deal with it, call up some allies, and perhaps luanch a counter-offence, or if I'm not feeling like going to war, I'll try the diplomatic approach. My nation already has rockets similiar to Titan IIs, (Think "Deep Impact") and my scientists are currently developing the tech to construct armed satalites to deploy in space above my nation as a first line of defense. Ultimately, I wanna get something like the Big Barrier and the seven layers of defense from Nadesico going on, but I'm afraid some peeps might think that's godmodding. Hmmm... Anyone here ever seen Martian Successor Nadesico? Would the Big Barrier be considered Godmod?

ooc:- I've seen it..I would say yes since the Big Barrier covered the entire planet, and no nation could build that.

bump ;p

One from the depths of the Forums... Now AMF IS Ignoring space nations...

It's unfair: How so? If you're one of these nations that goes around "shit stirring" (looking for trouble), and you step on the toes of a big space nation, expect to get an interstellar ass whooping.

As stated by me before: "If an alien lands in your backyard and bitch slaps you, can you simply look at him and say I ignore you?" No, you can't. there is no denying that superior tech is out there, and to do so is just plain silly.

<snip>

I know it's a shame that somebody else has bigger toys than you, but it's happens. I'm sure the Bushmen of Afrcia wouldn't "ignore" an attack by US, Russian, or Brittish troops, and that would be basically spear vs gun. Superior tech is out there in RL too.



But, sadly, this is a freeform RP forum, so you have the right to ignore anything you'd like, to a degree. But I personally think it's poor practice to ignore space tech simply because it's more advanced.




Crying Lions, tell me it isn't so :p

Well, AMF had a great speech... and then when it came to action - he just vanished, abandonning his allies :roll:

<flickity>

<ironic-bump>

I wouldn't ignore Space RPers if they didn't tend to do all of the following.

1. Create some outlandish and unstoppable weapon of mass destruction 'that is far beyond human comprehension' then name it by taking some pseudo-scientific word and tacking the name of a conventional armament on the back eg 'photon-cannon' 'nova-rifle' 'neutron-pistol' etc etc etc.

2. Create some outlandish and inpenetrable armour that is a quadrillion times harder to penetrate than steel, oh yes and coincidentally the manufacture of this armour 'is far beyond human comprehension' basically by getting either 'plas' or 'bio' and ramming it on the end of a seemingly randomly chosen type of metal. Giving us 'biobronze' 'plasiron' and the list goes on and on and on.....

3. Coming up with the world's worst ever vehicle designs on the grounds that its in space so its ok. We get vehicles with sponsons instead of turrets and exposed tracks. Sponsons went out of fashion in 1918 because they sucked, there is no logical reason highly advanced alien nations would be using them, unless being highly advanced also meant compulsory lobotomies. The other famous vehicle design is the 'straight from mech-warrior' where any weapon mounted on a mech does a bazillion times as much damage as if it were mounted on a tank 'because mechs are on two legs'. Oh yes and mechs are also practically invulnerable to everything because mech-warrior says so. So we have the famous case of the mech being hit by a 320 mm naval ordinance shell, which usually would level a city block, knocking off an arm.

If the day comes when Space Nations start paying atention to such trivialities as physics and reality, rather than the fact that their race are the God-people of the planet Awooba and therefore have access to 'the ancient and mystical futuristic sciences' then on that say I will stop ignoring space nations.

Hey, I totally agree with that sentiment Dyelli. Then again my spaceships are clunky, slow, small ... and have weapons based on actual engineering designs.

Luckily, it seems knowing lots about near-future tech is way more useful than being able to generate random words and shield strengths for 10km long ships :P

Hey, I totally agree with that sentiment Dyelli. Then again my spaceships are clunky, slow, small ... and have weapons based on actual engineering designs.

Luckily, it seems knowing lots about near-future tech is way more useful than being able to generate random words and shield strengths for 10km long ships :P

Yup, I agree with WV entirely.

And actually - he is the one who watches that my own spacedy tech doesn't become cardboard :wink:

actually just on the off chance I do come across someone using something vaguely realistic I have my own space defences, but they're under lock and key for now.

The big problem with spacedy tech is that most people seem to forget that they do NOT play nations with hundreds of billions of people, which might have this giant spacefleets/ ships, but nations with perhaps a billion people...

Which results in their fleets being cardboard.

But aside from that, what AMF didn`t realise when he compared space tech vs. modern tech to bushmen vs. british colonial troops:

This game is not reality.

You play with the tech you like, but that doesn`t mean others have to like it.

As NS is supposed to be fun, you cant just claim to have the best spacetech ever, and then bully others which don`t like space tech, followed by whining when they ignore you.

You simply have to respect their wishes.

I am a space nation, but try not to use ubertech. I do have FTL, but I am aware that I can't develop it myself. I don't develop anything that runs on pure technobabble. The only weapons that my space fleet has are conventional missiles and lasers. I don't use "plasma" or "phasers" or anything else like that. I don't ignore them, just don't use them. I do ignore any "ion cannons" that blow stuff up. I don't ignore SW type ion cannons though. They're just cool.

I do have at least 1 *cough* fantasy/past tech nation that is fully willing to RP with any tech level. How does a mech do against a big boulder? *crunch*

hehe.

How does a mech do against a big boulder? *crunch*

hehe.

*LOL*

You all make such very good points that i wish i had said them myself.
And my only really big issue are those mass drivers, some seems to treat them as if they where ordinary guns..

I, personally, do not care what people use on here. It boils down to 'reading'. If you do not like space tech and read it in a thread, then stay out of it. If you are space tech and read a thread that is modern, do everyone a favor and stay out of it, or reduce to modern.

Any mixing is discretion and must be mutual, or it just ends in a huge BS ignore fest.

Just keep it fun is the only issue here, right?

I am a Space-Tech nation, and moden nations, to me, are not existing. I live in my own world...own time, and only space tech matters to me. I would not call it ignoring, cuz...i share opinions with them and act friendly to them, but i jes dont take a physical approach to them

Well said Dyelli, however it would be good if people werent so quick to over generalize so that practically 99% of all space nations do those things that you mentioned just because some of them do. I agree with your points tough, extreme übertech like those billion or trillion times stronger armors are ridicolous and same goes with the weapons.

I dont however agree with the 3rd point. Its not godmodding or übertech for nation to make stupid vechile designs. Each one's nation is their own and they make designs like they want them to make. Even tough those designs might be logically thinking quite stupid, its not our right to judge them.

Also on the point of physics. If real-life physics were implemented well here, the battles would be so much more interesting. I for one arent going to add things like inertial dampeners which nicely allow one to ignore newtonian physics in space. I have added a rudimentary inertial compensator tough which allows high G accelerations (upto 600 G's in three or four months RL).

Anyways, ignoring all space nations because seven out of ten act dumb isnt smart. It makes you just as dumb as those seven out of ten space nations. Hell, its like saying that if you have read or witnessed one or two crimes done by one or Brasilians, then all Brasilians must be criminals.

Ignore spacetech if you want. *shrugs* It's your discretion.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

How does a mech do against a big boulder? *crunch*

hehe.Very well. It would simply blast it with a heavy laser.

I cannot belive how ignorant people can be when they try to comprehend Mechs. The main arguement is, "I can riam it with a tank and knock it over!" Utter BS. The mech would be shooting at you with heavy weapons and iff you did knock it down... IT GETS UP! The other is: "An artillery shell to the chest would knock it over!" Really now... if you get hit in the chest with a football, do you fall over? No, you hold your own or take a step back to hold your balence, like a Mech would do.

Ok... I'm going to go play with my Zen garden now...

*noises in background*

I can't get the sand smooth! ARRRGH! My Zen is stressing me out!

Don't get me wrong... I've played Battletech since I was five years old. Giant robots are simply awesome, no doubt 'bout it.

But I'm not about to mistake it for reality. 'Mechs are not effective fighting vehicles, especially given even -today's- technology. Joints are weak points just asking for a self-forging copper projectile, cockpits are exposed with armored glass just asking to get shattered, they stick up twelve meters and are therefore rather difficult to hide; they're hot and noisy and make excellent targets for airstrikes...

That being said, I don't care if anyone uses 'Mechs or not. I try to stay out of wars because they engender this: "Oh, wah, we don't agree." With no objective ruleset and the typical I WILL DEF34T J00 attitude amongst combatants, it just doesn't work. It's like kids in a sandbox.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

I wouldn't ignore Space RPers if they didn't tend to do all of the following.

1. Create some outlandish and unstoppable weapon of mass destruction 'that is far beyond human comprehension' then name it by taking some pseudo-scientific word and tacking the name of a conventional armament on the back eg 'photon-cannon' 'nova-rifle' 'neutron-pistol' etc etc etc.

2. Create some outlandish and inpenetrable armour that is a quadrillion times harder to penetrate than steel, oh yes and coincidentally the manufacture of this armour 'is far beyond human comprehension' basically by getting either 'plas' or 'bio' and ramming it on the end of a seemingly randomly chosen type of metal. Giving us 'biobronze' 'plasiron' and the list goes on and on and on.....

3. Coming up with the world's worst ever vehicle designs on the grounds that its in space so its ok. We get vehicles with sponsons instead of turrets and exposed tracks. Sponsons went out of fashion in 1918 because they sucked, there is no logical reason highly advanced alien nations would be using them, unless being highly advanced also meant compulsory lobotomies. The other famous vehicle design is the 'straight from mech-warrior' where any weapon mounted on a mech does a bazillion times as much damage as if it were mounted on a tank 'because mechs are on two legs'. Oh yes and mechs are also practically invulnerable to everything because mech-warrior says so. So we have the famous case of the mech being hit by a 320 mm naval ordinance shell, which usually would level a city block, knocking off an arm.

If the day comes when Space Nations start paying atention to such trivialities as physics and reality, rather than the fact that their race are the God-people of the planet Awooba and therefore have access to 'the ancient and mystical futuristic sciences' then on that say I will stop ignoring space nations.

I do, amazingly, and I fully agree with you.

'Mechs are not effective fighting vehicles, especially given even -today's- technology. Joints are weak points just asking for a self-forging copper projectile, cockpits are exposed with armored glass just asking to get shattered, they stick up twelve meters and are therefore rather difficult to hide; they're hot and noisy and make excellent targets for airstrikes...

Sadly, the real issue is the fact that most people playing 'mech'-style technology simply refuse to believe in physics. A heavy DE (Directed Energy ... AKA shaped charge warhead detonating against a mech's knee joint (for example) should bring the mech down.

Every mech-equipped player I've ever encountered refuses to admit the possibility that a mech could be damaged by anything but another mech. Whenever I roleplay with spacetech, I try to get everyone else involved to firmly and completely forget everything they have ever seen on TV, anime, comic books, or movies- which is the only way that any iota of realism (not reality, just realism) can appear in the game.

My personal pet peeve is the ignorami who post something to the effect of, "We order everyone to remove all satellites from over our country at once". This happens roughly once a month, and is the result of people having no idea what the hell they're talking about- poor schooling, perhaps.

Several people have already said it, but I'll say it again. Before interacting with someone in space, talk with them at length about whose laws of physics are going to apply. If you can't agree on that at the start- don't start.

Every mech-equipped player I've ever encountered refuses to admit the possibility that a mech could be damaged by anything but another mech.
It`s quite obvious you didn`t encounter me :P

*has four- to eight legged 'mechs' with incredible shitty armour*

As a matter of fact, i assume that a 7.5cm gun is able to break through the heavy ones, the light ones... 5cm should do the trick.

However, i 'designed' them to enhance maneuverability in complicate territory (woods, etc), and sacrificed armour for it.

So, depending on territory... in a desert, i assume that i would be slaughtered by normal Leopard II tanks, however, i see acceptable chances to be superior in woods, mountains, etc..

Of course, the designs i use are extremely flat, making it hard to hit the 'body' (except from above)... so aiming for the legs is much easier.

Of course, i did simply assume that i`m far enough to simulate biological 'walking' (That, and just in case, they still have wheels..), so that they actually ARE maneuverable like, well, an animal.

And for some reason, they don´t sink into the ground when walking on normal ground, rather than on streets. I`m not sure if the (very large) 'feet' are large enough for that, but... well, there are worse sins out there.

[/mech defence]

The Republic of Tiburon is extremely sorry about the loss of Sakkra's sandwich and is offering to ship you a new one, free of charge.

Pastrami on rye, with brown mustard and alpine-lace swiss cheese.

Anyway, I can see how some argument here rates. But if a 'space' nation comes and blasts you for no good reason, it's a given that that could be ignored. If you do instigate something ICly with said nation, however, you should take your lumps.

BTW, we find jamming a steel bar in the back of the knee-joint for those Gundams really messes them up badly.

*ship sandwich*

BTW, Gundanium is stronger than steel. The steel bar would be shattered. Seriously.

Mechs are one thing I take pains to study how different systems deal with. Why? Because Mechs are cool. Okay, so that is pretty blanket, but they are a 1 man fighting machine with the power of a tank: they put the personal skill and daring back into the armoured battlefield... but that doesn't give them the right to own everying in their viscinity.

The trouble is that generally mecha either come from Manga, or Mechwarrior. And in both of these places the circumstances are set up such that mechs work better. Because mechs are cool.
Mechs in the mechwarrior sense are large walking targets... but do better because nobody can aim at this fifty-story mostrosity's individual locations: Never mind that its head is the size of an MBT and people seem to be able to hit them pretty well, even with todays tech. Plus the terrain is so low resolution that tanks can't benefit from cover either and for some reason Mechs can use a form of super-armour whereas tanks are somehow inately weaker. Add to which that its peripherals (sensors, cameras, lights, exhaust vents, heat sinks) are invulnerable, despite the fact that they would have to be on the outside of the vehicle. But, it works for that system because a) the system is internally consistent and b) Mechs are cool.
But when paradigms clash, you find that very few people are willing to ignore the prospect of targeting his weak-spots, or defalade positions giving you umpteen chances to shoot at him before he spots you, let alone fires back.

I use mechs (or should I say Gears), but I play it sensibly. They are 4-5 metres tall and capable of crouching, kneeling and generally using cover. They are also vulnerable to tank rounds. Basicly I give them the firepower and protective armour of an equivalent-era IFV (e.g. Warrior, Bradley, BMP 3.) You can kill them, but they'll still be cooler than even the next-generation Merkhava or anything from C&C. Or Red alert, even. :wink:
Like DA, I put my mechs out there to fight, not to "PWNAGE!" They are just another fighting system.

Likewise I make use of some space-tech items, but on my own terms. Energy weapon point defence is very much like normal point defence: but it goes "neem". Railguns are few and far between, to be honest I can only use them space-tech nations because of the setup. My one concession to future tech is that I make use of fusion reactors to avoid having to think about the power requirements of various ships or fascilities. :oops: My bad, perhaps.

In short... I roleplay with spacetech nations, I've even nicked their tech. So I'll take my lumps if I piss one off, but you wont see me running space-fleets around.

my 2 cents, I guess.

Tiburon... "How did they do that to the Gekigan Punch? That Geikiganium alloy is 100 times harder than steel!"

Then why don't you build a f*ing tank out of it? It would be, like, difficult to hit as well as tough!

They did make tanks out of Gundanium.

Look Sparky, I haven't watched the series and I am highly unlikely to do so... if you want to spill the plot of that episode then I can deconstruct it and reply to your argument.
At present that remark just hangs in the air like an invitation to a flamewar.

Space Tech is very much more advanced than anything we have in Great Boogie, in fact, modern tech, and possibly even WW1 tech is more advanced than our Tech.

So if we were to goto war against another country (God forbid) then its not that it would be unfair, just very Difficult. But, yes it does all Boil down to Tactics.

Our Army is currently just over 110,000 in size.

We have Human swordsmen, who wear light armour, and carry a Boogonian Short Sword.
We have Elven Archers, who wear light armour, and carry an Elven Longbow.
We have Human Knights, who wear heavy armour, and carry a Boogonian Long Sword.
We have Dwarven Riflemen, who have light armou, and carry a Boogonian Bugleneck Long-Rifle.
We have Sorceress' who are trained in the Art of simple spellcasting,
We have Sorcerers, who are trained in the Art of Simple healing powers, and finally, we Have our Battle commanders, whos Armour varies, but they often carry a Gatling Bugleneck, a Longsword, and a Special Weapon that is often thought to be handed down from the Gods themselves.

As for vehicles, we have a Wooden Charge ram, that has light armour, holds a capacity of 20 men, but has no Weapon.
We have wooden Steam-tanks, that have Medium Armour, hold up to 5 men, and have a Small Cannon attached to the front.

Our scientists are constantly reasearching new things, but we advance at a very slow pace, which is probably the way the people like it.

<ironic-bump>

This is not irony, but a change in feelings.

After the whole "AMF/EOTED" incident, I learned a very important lesson: that RPing war with space tech nations is futile. (And note that on the first page of this thread, my comments were directed at modern tech nations who intentionally piss off space tech nations then ignore them. Ma-tek attacked me out of the blue, so what I said on page 1 does not relate to the AMF/EOTED situation)

Look, I gave up space tech because:



I am not a NASA technician like some of you are. I know jack shit about quantum physics, space craft, etc.

It's boring to RP (at least for me).

Most people will ignore it no matter how well done an RP is.



I much prefer RPing with modern tech nations now, mostly because they are more reasonable. Honestly (EOTED, SP, WV), there was way you were going to take a loss up against me, admit it. If you were beaten on the ground, you'd probably resort to ortillery, kinetic missiles, or seismic charges and just blast me into a crater. I much prefer playing with people like Pantera, and even though he is a January nation, his head isn't so big to the point where he would not take a loss, because he's said many times that he's not afraid to lose (Pantera, New Genoa, and Europa Brittania are very reasonable when it comes to losing). That's not to say that I wouldn't have taken a loss myself, had the playing field been fair. I think it was Whispering Voices that said "the thing about space tech is that sometimes the other side dosen't get a chance to fire back", and that's simply gay (especially when up against a modern tech nation).

Now, this may not be the case, but honestly, would EOTED, Sentient Peoples, and Whispering Voices accepted a loss if I repelled their attacks? I personally don't think so.

If you want to call me a hypocrite for now ignoring space tech, then go ahead, I could care less. The point is, I'm happier playing with modern tech, and it's going to stay like that.

Okay... and people wonder why I don't care. It's just easier that way.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

That's not to say that I wouldn't have taken a loss myself, had the playing field been fair. I think it was Whispering Voices that said "the thing about space tech is that sometimes the other side dosen't get a chance to fire back", and that's simply gay (especially when up against a modern tech nation).

That's about all the chance New Spartha had. Or in fact, anyone with a rock has against anyone with a machine gun, or whatever. If someone fires, and you die because of it, you don't fire back.

Now, this may not be the case, but honestly, would EOTED, Sentient Peoples, and Whispering Voices accepted a loss if I repelled their attacks? I personally don't think so.

I spent a lot of time and work on that war, turning this that and the other all to my advantage. Could I have taken a loss? Yea. I have done before. It's just not easy. You see, all those things you mentioned in that other thread:

That's how I RP. And when it comes to war, I use strategy, combat tactics, manipulation of resources, opportunities, psycholgical

I did all that. All of it. Our loss, to be fair, was unlikely. I actually even telegrammed Pantera in an attempt to set up just a RPed war between my forces and his forces to avoid the inevitable fest of the main battles. But could I take a loss against another nation?

Yes. I could.

If you want to call me a hypocrite for now ignoring space tech, then go ahead, I could care less. The point is, I'm happier playing with modern tech, and it's going to stay like that.

You'd describe a fully autonomous AI automata (Xel) as modern tech? And genetically augmented soldiers and a leader back from Hell?

:shock:

That's about all the chance New Spartha had.

But that was modern tech VS modern tech.


I spent a lot of time and work on that war, turning this that and the other all to my advantage. Could I have taken a loss? Yea. I have done before. It's just not easy. You see, all those things you mentioned in that other thread:

I did all that. All of it. Our loss, to be fair, was unlikely. I actually even telegrammed Pantera in an attempt to set up just a RPed war between my forces and his forces to avoid the inevitable fest of the main battles. But could I take a loss against another nation?

Yes. I could.

That's all well and fine, but half of that shit you posted I didn't read, because it was all babble to me. I don't understand half the shit space nations say anyways.


You'd describe a fully autonomous AI automata (Xel) as modern tech?

Stay current. Xel left Damien, and is out of this picture.

And genetically augmented soldiers

GENETICALLY PURE, not modified. Pure means that they have no genetic defects, such as genetically inherited diseases. I've said this so many freaking times already....

and a leader back from Hell?

Um....how can that be classified in a tech level? That has nothing to do with technology.

I've seen a few space nations that have taken into account the fact that thier opponents were modern tech. Melkor comes to mind immediately.

The problem I have is that most people don't. And, even if they do there is always someone *points* over there who will refuse, and say'Fuck no man. They're SPACE SHIPS. Your tanks are toast."

Now, if this is real life, that'd be all well and good. But it's not. Don't get me wrong, I'm adamant about wanting our Roleplaying to be as realistic as possible, but there is always the realism[VS]playability issue.

No matter how accomodating the space based nation is, it always comes back to the fact that you can zip around the atmosphere and drop in anywhere you please. From a mass, nationwide invasion in two minutes, to a fucking ortillery strike which there is absolutely no defense against, it just eats shit. Modern nations on the otherhand must RP a landing, establishing a beachead, brutal battles and fighting for every inch you gain.

Most of the time Ortillery and nukes/wmd's of any kind are a sure way to get yourself put on my 'Morons who eat shit and are to be ignored by Pantera" list. Simply because it curtails EVERYONES chance at bigger and better Roleplaying. "I Nukes you." *BANG*. Well fuck guys. There it is I guess...

Ortillery is even worse, just because it still doesn't carry the stigma of Nukes and people just say 'Fuck it'. You can sit five miles up and blow things out the ass of your massive ship? Go ahead, but do it without me because that's shit and we all know it. There's no fun in reading it, and I have no fun in replying to it. I would much rather take it to the lush green fields of Pantera, stain the black loam with the blood of my enemies and have a fuck-fest on the ground, where my Reavers can actually get at you. If you're still up there, thumb up your ass in a cushy chair aboard your space-ship, you can keep your ass there and leave me to my modern tech RP.

NOW, to play the advocate.

Previous RP's are often tainted by one nation ignoring another. Future RP possibilities are curtailed due to the fact that 'They're a Space nation'. Scenes that aren't technology based, or where tech levels aren't relevent at all are comprimised because of previous ignores, etc etc etc.

Either way, it sucks and I hate it. If we could all stick to our given time-frames, then all would be well. But we've shown we can't so I dunno.

"I don't need no arms around me...
And I don't need no Drugs to calm me...
I have seen the writing on the Wall.
Don't think I need anything at all.
NO! Don't think I need anything at all.
On and on it's all just bricks in the Wall."
Pink Floyd

Or, just do your own thing. Stick with spacy nations if your space and modern if you're modern. We all have our niche here, we just have to try to fill it. I feel I fill my own, you should too.

Ignore me if you will, because I won't hesitate to ignore you if the time comes. I'm here to RP and that means Roleplaying WELL. Getting my ass handed to me because you bring a fleet of spaceships doesn't fit the bill, but someone going toe to toe in the trenches and the jungles does fit, and more than pays for the bill.

I try to play the middle-man myself, modern flavoured lightly with a dash of future, but sometimes the line between the two blurs, and shit goes wrong. This has led me to stick to Modern tech and modern allies more often than not.

I don't know if I added anything helpful, or even really relevent, but there it is.

Word.

I tried- way back in march or April- to get people to list themselves as a given tech level in order to obviate a lot of the problems we've been talking about here. Nobody was interested.

I have tried- repeatedly and at great and boring length sometimes- to keep people who claim to use modern spacetech from acting stupid in public. Invading someone's country from space with modern technology is so far into the stupid continuum that I can't even bear talking about it.

As I've said before, I don't require that everyone playing in space with modern tech be physics majors, but I do insist that they have a vague clue as to how things work in real life. Trying to land anything from orbit in hostile territory in the face of modern air-defense networks is suicide.

Even orbital bombardment can be roleplayed properly with a little thought (which of course seems to be the heart of the problem- far too little thought). Dropping a dinosaur-killer onto the planet with modern tech is way out on the fringes of possibility, but has also drifted off into the stupid continuum again. The technical problems involved are so massive, would also involve so many impossible-to-conceal preparations, and would be so terribly vulnerable to basic countermeasures before deployment that it would be a massive waste of resources and time.

Done properly, someone could read up on a US Army project codenamed Thor from the mid-60's and use that idea. Dropping missiles of one sort or another from orbit to demolish hardened bunkers and fixed defenses is well into the realm of possibility and not even close to stupid- but it is:

A) very expensive

B) fairly easy to defeat before deployment

C) only useful against fixed objects

Here's something else spacetech is useful for: Information Warfare. The real life US military makes extensive use of satellites- for the usual surveillance and communications, but also offensively. Psychological warfare is a fairly cheap way to attack your enemy's will to resist, and hijacking enemy communications signals is relatively easy from a satellite in orbit. These are just two uses for modern spacetech off the top of my head. If you start ignoring those just because they happen in space, you may as well start roleplaying with WWII technology, because you have lost your last tenuous connection with the real world.

Once more, the key is to discuss the issues-especially regarding technology- with the opponent before starting the war. The whole purpose of roleplaying war while supposedly on a level playing field is to come up with clever ways of using existing tech to your advantage. IGNORING useful, practical, and intelligent tactics just because they happen in space and you don't understand space is fairly childish.

Done properly, someone could read up on a US Army project codenamed Thor from the mid-60's and use that idea. Dropping missiles of one sort or another from orbit to demolish hardened bunkers and fixed defenses is well into the realm of possibility and not even close to stupid-

*whistles innocently* Nope, nothing to see here, Mars is totally boring, move along...

Done properly, someone could read up on a US Army project codenamed Thor from the mid-60's and use that idea. Dropping missiles of one sort or another from orbit to demolish hardened bunkers and fixed defenses is well into the realm of possibility and not even close to stupid-

*whistles innocently* Nope, nothing to see here, Mars is totally boring, move along...

LOL!

I take it you've read Footfall.

There are too many things wrong with space based nations.

1. Massive Warships: People keep getting away with building ships the size of Rhode Island.

2. Massive Fleets: People just have outrageous numbers per fleet, this is a pattern that I'm used to seeing in modern day warfare with naval fleets. (Main reason why I don't RP wars anymore)

3. Infinite Resources: People just make up asteroids that they infinatly mine and use as a reason why they can build 1 and 2.

4. Weapons of -MASS- Destruction: Too many stars getting blown up nowadays, the sky is starting to look pretty bleak. Sees a big flash and now the Perseus Constellation is gone.

Ortillary is bad, because no one knows how to use it right. Everyone with Ortillary has basically StG weapons that can wipe entire battlegrounds clear of troops. Or least that appears to be the major complaint about it. I'm still new to space RPing so I've never used Ortillary before but if I did, I can really just imagine it being like regular howitzer artillary. 5-10 miles away and shooting at you out of sight. Sure the explosions are larger and more deadly, but then again what do you expect? The only thing that comes close to heavy ortillary is the stuff on my main Carrier vessels and even then thats just like a really focused barrage of fire and nothing more, nothing less.

There are too many things wrong with space based nations.

1. Massive Warships: People keep getting away with building ships the size of Rhode Island.

2. Massive Fleets: People just have outrageous numbers per fleet, this is a pattern that I'm used to seeing in modern day warfare with naval fleets. (Main reason why I don't RP wars anymore)

3. Infinite Resources: People just make up asteroids that they infinatly mine and use as a reason why they can build 1 and 2.

4. Weapons of -MASS- Destruction: Too many stars getting blown up nowadays, the sky is starting to look pretty bleak. Sees a big flash and now the Perseus Constellation is gone.


Agreed. Its the whole steel penis thing.

I've probably gone through a bit more trouble than most, calculating how much every kilogram of warship costs to construct or maintain each year. And I am constantly outnumbered, even by June nations, despite the fact that I spend more on my military than their entire budgets. Some people think being "future tech" means you not only have infinite resources, but you use them. In every one of their ships! And at lower cost than a manure farm, of course. Personally, I don't mind if people go the "big ship" route, hell no one's perfect, but its when they godmod... and they inevitably do.... that irks me.

There are too many things wrong with space based nations.
1. Massive Warships: People keep getting away with building ships the size of Rhode Island.

My largest ship is my Battlewagon class Cruiser which is about 2,240 feet. Now I know RI is small but it isnt that small.


2. Massive Fleets: People just have outrageous numbers per fleet, this is a pattern that I'm used to seeing in modern day warfare with naval fleets. (Main reason why I don't RP wars anymore)
21 warships on my count. 7 Carriers 3 Cruisers 11 Destroyers. 10 Transports but they arent warships and they're really just moving scaffolding with truck trailers attached.


3. Infinite Resources: People just make up asteroids that they infinatly mine and use as a reason why they can build 1 and 2.
This I can see your point on really. Its rather difficult for people to explain how they achieved hundreds of warship unless they're nation is completely offworld in another part of the galaxy.


4. Weapons of -MASS- Destruction: Too many stars getting blown up nowadays, the sky is starting to look pretty bleak. Sees a big flash and now the Perseus Constellation is gone.

::shrugs::Newbies. What can ya say?

I don't generally ignore people, but I do think that people really abuse space travel; while I don't have any problem with this generally, I find it frustrating that people adopt the kind of technology I've spent months RP devloping, with a consitent and logical backstory, litterally overnight.

There are too many things wrong with space based nations.

1. Massive Warships:

2. Massive Fleets:

3. Infinite Resources:

4. Weapons of -MASS- Destruction:

Amen, brudda, to all of the above.

Far too many people watch Star trek (for example) and assume that their 300 million people can afford to build, maintain, and crew a fleet of Enterprise-type starships, bringing us right back into the stupid continuum again.

Here's a clue for all the Trekkies out there: The Federation in the Star Trek universe has a population of nearly a trillion spread out across most of a spiral arm, and they only have TWELVE Enterprise-type starships.

Here's another clue. Even with "warp drives", it takes a finite amount of time to travel anywhere in a galaxy the size of the Milky Way. It also takes time to mine and process raw materials, lots of time to transport said materials to manufacturing areas, more time to build anything out of 'em, and yet more time for the completed product to get to where it needs to be. In the real world, this sort of thing is called logistics, and logistics wins more wars than any ship or weapon ever built.

Arrrrrrgh!

Never mind. This is one of the reasons I've remained with near-modern technology for my country. Some of the utter nonsense perpetrated on these boards will give me an ulcer if I think about it long enough. Not everyone roleplaying far future tech is guilty of these charges, but the few who aren't are lost in the sea of ignorance and wishful thinking. This sort of sloppy play is everywhere in the game, but at least with modern tech I can use actual real-world information to prove my point.

Agreed...but let me show you a different way that applies. I have been working on my Space Travel since the end of April...yet if my fleet is more powerful than others (logical, yes?) and at times ALOT more powerful I get called a godmodder...even if my stuff is well RPed and somewhat realistic. Hense why I haven't been in a war for quite a while....

I know the feeling, by the way, it is not an "Enterprise" class, either it is a "Galaxy" (Enterprise D, the fatter one) or a "Soverign" (Enterprise E, the new and skiny one). Just that little nick pick. Also, NO MORE PLANNET BUSTERS, every space nation seems to want to have a resusable plannet buster. Some of us keep things realistic, for some reason, a Solar Killer (Kills the entire system) is easier to think about and make than a plannet killer missile. Don't know why.

Agreed...but let me show you a different way that applies. I have been working on my Space Travel since the end of April...yet if my fleet is more powerful than others (logical, yes?) and at times ALOT more powerful I get called a godmodder...even if my stuff is well RPed and somewhat realistic. Hense why I haven't been in a war for quite a while....

Yep. That's the problem, all right. That's the reason why talking things over with prospective opponents beforehand will help.

I know the feeling, by the way, it is not an "Enterprise" class, either it is a "Galaxy" (Enterprise D, the fatter one) or a "Soverign" (Enterprise E, the new and skiny one). Just that little nick pick. Also, NO MORE PLANNET BUSTERS, every space nation seems to want to have a resusable plannet buster. Some of us keep things realistic, for some reason, a Solar Killer (Kills the entire system) is easier to think about and make than a plannet killer missile. Don't know why.

simple...star/sun destruction....but pull that on another nation in NS...and...well... :lol:

Right... over the last 4 months I've developed my space navy from 300 meter long frigates too... the Star Dreadnoughts I'm constructing right now. But I'm sure were I to post that I have a starships capable of firing a beam with a power output of 1.5 million terrawats/sec, and am planning on building 300 of them over the next 100 years... I'd probably be labeled a godmoder.

Not to mention Asgard...

I'm not one for voicing my opinion... but uh... all this griping has gotten to me. It's as though if a nation isn't as old as the nation that is speaking... the former nation cannot have one ounce of fun. I'd hate to be a May+ nation.

Klonor?

SDI = Space Defence Initiative

A program based on the idea of orbital defenses to shot down incoming ICBM's with Lasers, Shotgun types of guns (lots of scrap metal to damage the missile) or anti-missile missiles..

Expanding the idea a bit, they could be used to shoot an incoming space craft or ordnance.. your Mjolnir orbital defenses are a good example of SDI constructs.

Another thing many people forget: If you RP space tech (Say, 2100, reach saturn) without using thingy`s like gravdrives or whatever (As i do), it gives you the opportunity to develop a massive space presence, of, say, a few 100k to a few million people (within a time of ten- 20 years and an insane budget), however, it weakens you.

Why?

Because tthe amount of ships you can use is limited. I use (a little bit optimistic) parity between naval and spaceships. Means, for every spaceship i have, i have a naval ship less.

Or in other words, my naval fleet, as well as my spacefleet, are comparable to the size the fleet of a nation half my size would have.

And, as my ships (aside from small bombers that can penetrate the upper atmosphere and stage horrible inaccurate bombings) are not capable of ortillery, it really means my capabilities for earth- based warfare are limited.

Of course, i still did it, simply because i liked the though of having mining outposts on the galilean moons *cough*, but still: I`m weakened.

Another thing i dislike are pop- up spacefleets.

One doesn`t build a space station/ shipyard in orbit for a month RL time, using primitive shuttles and the already mentioned insane budget, followed by one more month RL for ship construction of a single fleet (In my case, 21 ships), no, one has suddenly a fleet of several hundred ships popping up...

DA is right. There is always a trade off. Whatever you use in space, is something you cannot use on earth, and vice versa.

I cannot belive how ignorant people can be when they try to comprehend Mechs. The main arguement is, "I can riam it with a tank and knock it over!" Utter BS. The mech would be shooting at you with heavy weapons
Incorrect, due to the high profile of a mech the odds of it getting the first shot in are about 0.

and iff you did knock it down... IT GETS UP! The other is: "An artillery shell to the chest would knock it over!" Really now... if you get hit in the chest with a football, do you fall over? No, you hold your own or take a step back to hold your balence, like a Mech would do.

Yes, working on the assumption shells don't actually explode.

Personaly, I think ignores should be done on a nation by nation basis. I'm a space nation, but should I wish to RP with a modern nation I understand that it has to be on their technology level, otherwise there is no RP. I think a blanket ignore of Space Tech, without consideration as to what the nation in question is agreeing to do to make the RP fair and fun for both parties is a bad idea, it limits the number of people you RP with, which in turn limits the ammount of RP that you do. I've been roleplaying for 9 years now, obviously not on this board, but with table top, live action roleplaying, and other free form forum based games. Godmodders suck, as does playing against a powergamer, they simply dominate the game so much, that they are the only one who has fun, and when players don't have fun, the game falls apart. Its not just about you in this game, its about everyone else, working together to have fun, thats why we keep coming back. I'll get off my soap box, but to ignore space tech, so long as they are willing to meet you halfway and not play it as a powergamer, is simply a bad idea. As a modern nation, set rules, such as Ortiliary is not out of firing range simply because its in orbit, your ships are not indestructable, your soldiers do not have armor that makes them invincible, and if they have armor that can stop RPG shells and 20mm rounds, then they cost a hell of a lot. Law of economics still applies, the more technology it has, the more it costs. . . last I checked, a stealth bomber was still more expencive than a bi-plane. Before I go, I do have a point for Modern nations about Ortiliary and Ship to ground Barages. . . mainly, the atmophere. You want to send a hail of laser fire down onto the planet's surface and hit something as small as a building? good luck, you aren't sniping from space, you are pointing in the closest facimily of a dirrection and letting loose. This means that your shots will 1) be inaccurate and smash down just about everywhere but where you want them to go, 2) most likely hit anouther country bringing him into the war and 3) make you feel rather stupid when you realize that the atmophere plays hell with laser beams, plasma bolts and solid projectiles. Wind currents, fog and atmopheric debris will knock them off course and send them careening all over the place. And don't even try the "but my computer compensates for it", there will alway be enough uncertianty in weather patterns to make sniping from space improbable if not impossible. Sorry, done ranting.

My name is Taka

And I, am a Space Nation.

*brought to you by the council for good Roleplaying, and a grant from the selective ignore society*

*Standing ovation, loud whistels,cheering and women throwing their panties*

Great Taka, simply great..

Taka, agreed, but Im not sure where you get the idea that ortillery is just plain inaccurate. Sure, theres the atmosphere and wind, but how much is that going to effect a heavy metal projectile moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light? Lasers have problems in atmosphere, but not enough to discourage RL militaries from researching space-based anti-missile lasers..

DA- I actually do something similar, except I figure space multiplies the cost by ten, giving a ten to one correspondence of space ships to naval ones. Meaning my not-so-vast space military is sucking up vast fleets of potential naval ships. Of course, I've RPd this, and I hate being weaker because of realism to those who should be weaker economically-militarily-industrially, so I'll just be RPing some major cost-reduction research soon......

Beware.

Here's a rant more or less on this subject I posted some time ago.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68977&highlight=

Once more, full-scale study of the subject isn't required, only familiarity with the issues involved in modern spacetech. That's why I wrote that rant- in order to give other players some actual information on which to base their roleplaying.

Sadly, I still keep reading the most ludicrous posts regarding space.

<heavy sigh>

And that Mr Overlord, is why i really watch whom to play with. And why i have so low tech stuff, so many cling to their idea that their shields and armour can take just about anything thrown at them..

And that Mr Overlord, is why i really watch whom to play with. And why i have so low tech stuff, so many cling to their idea that their shields and armour can take just about anything thrown at them..


That's the key to everything, right there. Pick your playmates wisely.

Hmm, well I've had a very intresting read through. But really you should judge each nation on it's own merits. Example I have never posted much with this nation, but then it tends to be isolationist.

Some would say that my tech base is way too high, but then I didn't think it started at zero when it began, but that relates to the back story. In the end my technology is far better than I can actually build at the moment.

I have to agree with the modern tech nations. However, in regards to Pantera's modern-tech speech, which reads as situationally relevant to the AMF war ... where did we use space technology against anyone other than Automagfreek's space allies? Neo-Wu refused to post casualties by doing a Resi and avoiding the thread, Tersanctus decided he wasn't there, Scandavian States the same. Only Cspalla had the guts to take casualties.

I agree that it's up to someone to choose who they ignore, conversely, I think it's rather off to ignore people out of convenience/laziness/lack of desire to lose.

P.S. Cloning humans, en masse, is not modern tech. There is no such thing as "genetically pure" stock, not in the sense of Sentinels at least.

A few realtively random thoughts on the subject, some of which will hopefully be more or less on target. (And which may be subject to changes in opinion.)

Mechs: IMHO, I*ll stick with the USMCs anti-armor training - What you can see you can hit. What you can hit you can kill.
Space tech: I play a very hard modern tech (ask Imortia about our dispute over ETC sometime....), not Star Trek Star Wars or whatever. and would simply disbelieve it. You are welcome to it, just don*t insist I believe it. And, yes, Africa, Australia, and the Americas were over-run by Europeans with superior tech. BUT THAT TECH ACTUALLY EXISTED AT THE TIME! (Sorry to shout, but the OP seemed to ignore the fact.) Space tech, as invisioned by 99.999% of the nations I have seen here (totally invalid and statistically insignificat data set... :wink: ), is not anywhere near real. It isnt real thus I wont acknowledge it as such.
Fantasy nations get the same, only more so.

That being said, a note on peaceful RPs or RPs where tech is unimportant. My suggestion/solution is dual/multiple realities.
I have had some interesting RPs with space/fantasy/vampire/whatever nations. I had an entrant from the a nation of *sentient bats* enter a beauty contest (albiet after a judge urged us to accept). I pointed out that my people would see the bat as a person dressed in a bat costume. Pilons PiFizz soda, which he claims contains nanites is sold here. I simply say it tastes good. The first player abandoned the RP and Pilon and I (at least AFAIK, haven*t had reason to dispute the others claims. An excellent argument for more peaceful RPs, as well as Evil Overlords pick your playmates.

Hopefully that was somewhat coherent....

I know the feeling, by the way, it is not an "Enterprise" class, either it is a "Galaxy" (Enterprise D, the fatter one) or a "Soverign" (Enterprise E, the new and skiny one). Just that little nick pick. Also, NO MORE PLANNET BUSTERS, every space nation seems to want to have a resusable plannet buster. Some of us keep things realistic, for some reason, a Solar Killer (Kills the entire system) is easier to think about and make than a plannet killer missile. Don't know why.

*hides Morning Star behind back*
"I have no doomsday wepons!"

I have said it once and i will say it again. As long as well RP'd, there is nothing wrong with space tech. What comes to building large spacecraft and stations quickly, well space is a much more easier construction enviroment than the surface of a planetary body. You dont need to worry about the biggest problem which is gravity and you have much more space where to build.

Also what comes for resources, altough asteroids are hardly infinite in resources, a single largish asteroid with a relatively good mineral composition would provide unthinkable amounts of construction materials. So basically even the asteroid field at Sol system could provide the construction materials for large spacefleets with relative ease. So the resources are not the problem.

The biggest problem when it comes to spaceships are the warm bodies needed to work those ships. For a large part the amount of those bodies depends on the amount of automation used on the vessel and if a nation can build a 1 kilometer long spaceship without it taking a hundred years to complete it, automation level that would allow the ship to be run with a crew of 5,000 or less wouldnt be far fetched.

Ortillery is propably the thing that separates space nations from other nations for the biggest part. It gives an insane advantage to the space nation. My solution for that is that orbital bombardment is horribly inaccurate even if there isnt any jamming around. If a lot of electronic warfare is involved, then there is no point in trying to use ortillery if the rounds can hit your own troops as well as the enemy. Missiles would be more accurate but they on the other hand are also vurnelable to EW and possibly missile defense systems.

P.S. Cloning humans, en masse, is not modern tech. There is no such thing as "genetically pure" stock, not in the sense of Sentinels at least.

I do not clone them "en masse", their production rate is equal to that of the old human enlistment rate, and I've stated that many times too.

BTW, you must tell me when you were put in charge of deciding exactly what modern tech nations can and can't do.

Um, Auto?

By definition, a 'modern' tech nation cannot do anything more than the US is currently capable of.

Therefore, when WV tells you a 'modern' tech nation cannot do something, he is just stating facts.

Um, Auto?

By definition, a 'modern' tech nation cannot do anything more than the US is currently capable of.

Therefore, when WV tells you a 'modern' tech nation cannot do something, he is just stating facts.

Erm...then tell Mallberta that he's godmodding, because he exists in a slightly post-modern society, similar to what I've always existed in.

Ortillery is propably the thing that separates space nations from other nations for the biggest part. It gives an insane advantage to the space nation. My solution for that is that orbital bombardment is horribly inaccurate even if there isnt any jamming around. If a lot of electronic warfare is involved, then there is no point in trying to use ortillery if the rounds can hit your own troops as well as the enemy. Missiles would be more accurate but they on the other hand are also vurnelable to EW and possibly missile defense systems.

Minor quibble here:

Electronic warfare is fairly useless against a falling rock. As I said in the "Orbital Mechanics" rant, the rock's destination will be determined by the amount of braking thrust used to de-orbit the rock and the orbital location where the braking took place. Only if the falling rock has some sort of guidance system will EW have any effect.

The only thing that will stop an unguided rock from hitting the ground on its ballistic orbit is if it:
A) burns up during re-entry

B) is successfully attacked with a large nuclear weapon which detonates in very close proximity (more than few hundred meters away or so will change the rock's target by kicking it sideways a few klicks).

Remember: these are falling rocks. They're going to hit the ground somewhere.

By definition, a 'modern' tech nation cannot do anything more than the US is currently capable of.The US does not have the best of every technology.
Also, a modern tech nation can have some things that aren't quite ready or practical yet if that nation's tech leans toward that. For example, a modern tech nation can have ortillery (which, being a KE weapon, is best used against targets such as the enemy's capital buildings) if space is and has been for some time a priority. Or, if the nation is a bunch of islands (like Nianacio), the ships might be slightly more advanced than other nations' ships (trimaran design, laser CIWS, extra-long-range missiles, etc.), and these technologies can then be brought over to the army.

Nianacio does have advanced ships, but makes up for that by having a small number of light tanks. Larger tanks would not be able to be airlifted from point to point in the jungle, swim across rivers and swamps, or fit into the narrow paths that have been cleared, and a large tank force would be utterly useless in the jungle because it wouldn't have any room to maneuver.

Um, Auto?

By definition, a 'modern' tech nation cannot do anything more than the US is currently capable of.

Therefore, when WV tells you a 'modern' tech nation cannot do something, he is just stating facts.

Erm...then tell Mallberta that he's godmodding, because he exists in a slightly post-modern society, similar to what I've always existed in.

Mallberta is a surreal post-apocalyptic society... I consider myself as advanced as pretty much anyone, just in different ways.

errr.... that's me above... sorry :oops:

By definition, a 'modern' tech nation cannot do anything more than the US is currently capable of.The US does not have the best of every technology.
Also, a modern tech nation can have some things that aren't quite ready or practical yet if that nation's tech leans toward that. For example, a modern tech nation can have ortillery (which, being a KE weapon, is best used against targets such as the enemy's capital buildings) if space is and has beeen for some time a priority. Or, if the nation is a bunch of islands (like Nianacio), the ships might be slightly more advanced than other nations' ships (laser CIWS, extra-long-range missiles, etc.), and these technologies can then be brought over to the army.

Hear! Hear!

There are a lot of off-the-shelf technology projects that the US military does not use for one reason or another (mostly political pork-barrelling pressure from Congress). A good example is that Project Thor the Army was working on in the 60's that never got any funding. Another is Freeman Dyson's nuclear-powered spaceship project- cancelled by Congress after signing a treaty with the USSR prohibiting nuclear weapons in space.

A lot of the NATO countries, for example, are using some truly excellent newly-designed small arms while the US military is still using the 60's vintage M-16. The Russians have just developed a new Assault rifle derived from the original Kalashnikov design that is (so far as I can tell from published reports) superior to the M-16 by an order of magnitude. Even the main gun on the M-1 Abrams MBT is a German design. I need only briefly mention the interesting fact that the Israeli version of the Bradley fighting vehicle- built in the US to Israeli specs- was so much superior in every way to the one the US military was using that we started using the Israeli model.

Just because the US military uses it doesn't make it the best available.

I'll say this one more time just to make you shut up.

Some people play modern tech, some people play future tech, some people play both, some people play way out there in fantasy and medieval etc.

If a Modern Tech nation wants to fight a war without having to worry about things that do not exist like giant space ships that can defy gravity and fire antimatter bombs at them... then THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

Many modern tech players want to play in a world with technology similar to the real world. if they wanted to play in space, they would play future tech.

If someone ignores you because of tech level difference, please respect it, unless they just deserve a carpet nuking ;)

Why do you think we spend so much time and trouble trying to come up with the best stuff possible without going beyond currently available technology? if we wanted to make things uber-advanced, we would, but we don't.

Personally, i gnore anything over 2020 tech, and I play around 2010 tech.

This is my future-tech country, and I play a modern one as well. I don't see the need to IGNORE unless the future tech country is just plain out there (nanotech, psyonics, time/space manipulation). This is what I'm talking about:

My fleet comes out of nullspace in system and drops into orbit. Using precision strikes from our railguns and particle beams, we lacerate your military bases. We launch an Antimatter strike on your capital. We launch an army of power-armor wearing, energy shielded, nano-regenerative marines into your country.

*other country* We fall back with partisan fighting, sniping at your armies in the rubble of my city.

*idiot futuretech*Your weapons only puncture one man's armor, and he is rebuilt by his enhanced DNA and nanotech before he can die. Our sensors are now calibrated to find your people from miles away, and we're firing railguns through the walls.

AND THIS GOES ON!

And then there's this lovely idea...

I fire a Nova Bomb at your sun.

You can't stop that with modern tech. With futuretech, you could interdict the attacker, try to stop the bomb, and maybe even evac. With modern, you just die from the Nova. That's the problem with future vs. modern. Now, I've never seen this happen, but I'm sure there's some natio running around out there slagging people like such... :roll:

I'm not ranting about the evils of far-future tech, as I hope to get there someday, but I say: Keep it to your own league!

Erm...then tell Mallberta that he's godmodding, because he exists in a slightly post-modern society, similar to what I've always existed in.

Why? I don't have a problem with Mallberta's tech. He doesn't claim it's 2003 modern tech though.

You claim to have a force of Sentinels that are cloned, en masse. Production rate is irrelevant (although even cloning individual organs at this point in time - you know, modern time - is a far from certain business, with high failure rates, immensely high rejection rates (donated organs require the recipient to be on immuno-suppressive drugs for the rest of their lives to avoid rejection)). As of yet no-one has so much as cloned a human infant in an even vaguely verified manner. When they do, no doubt the first generations will die horrendously - if they are even permitted, given global stance on such things.

Nianciao - people that 'lean' towards space tech and ortillery are not modern. They're post-modern.

Why? I don't have a problem with Mallberta's tech. He doesn't claim it's 2003 modern tech though.

You claim to have a force of Sentinels that are cloned, en masse. Production rate is irrelevant (although even cloning individual organs at this point in time - you know, modern time - is a far from certain business, with high failure rates, immensely high rejection rates (donated organs require the recipient to be on immuno-suppressive drugs for the rest of their lives to avoid rejection)). As of yet no-one has so much as cloned a human infant in an even vaguely verified manner. When they do, no doubt the first generations will die horrendously - if they are even permitted, given global stance on such things.



I've said time and time again....AMF is post modern tech, and this sort of thing is possible. Besides, who's to say that a human already hasn't been cloned? There's shit that's happening today that nobody knows about.

Nianciao - people that 'lean' towards space tech and ortillery are not modern. They're post-modern.No, they aren't. If NASA kept working at the same rate, we could have such things by now.

I'm near-modern tech, and I use robot drones all the time... granted they don't have arms and elgs, but they get the job done. Cyphers... UCAVs...

Nianciao - people that 'lean' towards space tech and ortillery are not modern. They're post-modern.No, they aren't. If NASA kept working at the same rate, we could have such things by now.

Er. But we don't. So they're not modern.

Here. Let's ask a dictionary what 'modern' means:

Miriam Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com)

1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past : CONTEMPORARY b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time
2 : involving recent techniques, methods, or ideas : UP-TO-DATE
3 capitalized : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the present or most recent period of development of a language

Present is defined as "now existing".

Hence, because NASA has in fact not concentrated on space (or so you say. Actually, they have concentrated on space, they just don't have unlimited funding), they don't have space ships that can drop bombs on people. Which means there aren't any in the present, which means they're not a modern technology.

By your argument, if mankind had devoted all its attention to time travel, HG Wells would be correct.

Hence, because NASA has in fact not concentrated on space (or so you say. Actually, they have concentrated on space, they just don't have unlimited funding)I said no such thing.
they don't have space ships that can drop bombs on peopleSo what? The game is not real, and modern in-game equivalents of NASA could have easily developed ortillery already if the military of the nation told 'NASA' to develop it.
Which means there aren't any in the present, which means they're not a modern technology.There aren't trimaran stealth warships, either. Are you saying they're not modern just because the two technologies haven't been merged?
By your argument, if mankind had devoted all its attention to time travel, HG Wells would be correct.Nope. My argument is that small leaps in technology can be made sooner in the NS world depending on the nation's culture.

Remember: these are falling rocks. They're going to hit the ground somewhere.

That reminds me of a quote: "Cluster bombs are the most accurate weapons ever developed. Every single one of them eventually hits the ground."

Ortillery is propably the thing that separates space nations from other nations for the biggest part. It gives an insane advantage to the space nation. My solution for that is that orbital bombardment is horribly inaccurate even if there isnt any jamming around. If a lot of electronic warfare is involved, then there is no point in trying to use ortillery if the rounds can hit your own troops as well as the enemy. Missiles would be more accurate but they on the other hand are also vurnelable to EW and possibly missile defense systems.

Minor quibble here:

Electronic warfare is fairly useless against a falling rock. As I said in the "Orbital Mechanics" rant, the rock's destination will be determined by the amount of braking thrust used to de-orbit the rock and the orbital location where the braking took place. Only if the falling rock has some sort of guidance system will EW have any effect.

The only thing that will stop an unguided rock from hitting the ground on its ballistic orbit is if it:
A) burns up during re-entry

B) is successfully attacked with a large nuclear weapon which detonates in very close proximity (more than few hundred meters away or so will change the rock's target by kicking it sideways a few klicks).

Remember: these are falling rocks. They're going to hit the ground somewhere.

As in against mass drivers for example. Sure, dropping rocks is a fairly usefull technique, but the problem is that in order for it to not burn in athmosphere, it needs to be quite big. When its quite big, its easier to hit.

Another method of destroying orbital dropped rocks would be by lasers. Ofcourse these would easilly need to be in the few hundred terawatt range to be of any practical use but they would be the most accurate and propably more effective than a nuke since at a few hundred terawatt range there will be quite rapid vaporization on the asteroid which allready equals an explosion. So with luck the laser wouldnt even need to shatter/destroy the asteroid because the effect of the rapid vaporization would throw it off course.

But ofcourse, a laser weapon like this would allready require quite a bit of advanced technology to achieve but they could do it.

What about units like Jedi Knights or other kinds of psychics? I tend to use them along with modern tech (which is kinda weird i know, but whaddya expect from a SW fan?), as i consistently said that they are refugees from the Purges, and not the entire Order as some people tend to think.
IMHO, A Jedi could probably build a lightsaber with a flashlight, a gem, a focusing lens, some coiled wire, and a C-D cell battery, but I don't know. There are real physicists that have said that lightsabers are at least theoretically possible, and I just roleplay that it is possible to build 'em (if i don't i'll change them to katanas aka Japanese swords, where Lucas got the lightsaber from).
Now some people tend to ignore me when they are put into play, but I always counter that you can kill a Jedi with overwhelming firepower (about 20 guns firing from different directions is a good tactic), and even a Jedi Master can't possibly block all the bullets. But *sigh* to some people, Jedi are uberpowerful people that can block everything and use powerful Force moves and cannot be defeated, except by another Jedi. So I just stick to my guns and roleplay my Jedi as special ops people.

in order for it to not burn in athmosphere, it needs to be quite big.No, it doesn't. Bolt on heat-protective 'shingles'.

in order for it to not burn in athmosphere, it needs to be quite big.No, it doesn't. Bolt on heat-protective 'shingles'.

As in a heat shield? Sure that would work but consider this, if the asteroid is going too fast, it will need a lot of heat shielding, if its going too slow, it will be an easy target anyway. And there is a limit how big the asteroid needs to be so that its practical to heat-shield it.

As in a heat shield? Sure that would work but consider this, if the asteroid is going too fast, it will need a lot of heat shielding, if its going too slow, it will be an easy target anyway. And there is a limit how big the asteroid needs to be so that its practical to heat-shield it.Ah, you're thinking of ortillery as in falling asteroids? To me, ortillery is more like a huge, falling tungsten rod launched from your everday space shuttle...

So what? The game is not real, and modern in-game equivalents of NASA could have easily developed ortillery already if the military of the nation told 'NASA' to develop it.

Aside from the cost of $27,000 dollars to ship something under 90kg up GAS currently (and that's the limit of the spare space the space shuttle has), and the 1.7 billion dollar pricetag of the shuttle itself (compared to ~70 million for an ICBM), you mean? No. Current technology does not permit for anything even close to cost effective ortillery, bearing in the weight of dumb payloads or even chemical rocket payloads.

There aren't trimaran stealth warships, either. Are you saying they're not modern just because the two technologies haven't been merged?

LOL? Modern stealth technology is so good on the sea, given it relies on environments with low humidity, no precipitation, and moderate temperatures. What sea exactly were you wanting to float this legendary Trimaran on? The Dead Sea? Wait ... too hot ...

Nope. My argument is that small leaps in technology can be made sooner in the NS world depending on the nation's culture.

The point is, if it's a leap in technology, it's not modern technology.

:roll:

If it has elements never before seen in the world, then it is not modern tech. Lightsabers, no. Cloaking devices, no. Gravships, no. Stealth, Yes. Unmanned airplanes, yes. Flying drones with guns, possible.

Aside from the cost of $27,000 dollars to ship something under 90kg up GAS currently (and that's the limit of the spare space the space shuttle has), and the 1.7 billion dollar pricetag of the shuttle itself (compared to ~70 million for an ICBM), you mean? No.This is one example of the US not having the best technology - the Russians had the capability to put 120 tonns of payload into space.
LOL? Modern stealth technology is so good on the sea, given it relies on environments with low humidity, no precipitation, and moderate temperatures.Stealth ships already exist, as do trimarans.
What sea exactly were you wanting to float this legendary Trimaran on? The Dead Sea? Wait ... too hot ...All of them. 8)
The point is, if it's a leap in technology, it's not modern technology.The technology that IRL is considered modern is available now because of how people spend their money. In the NS world, people spend differently, leading to some technologies coming later and some coming sooner, all modern WITHIN THE NS WORLD.
:roll:I like this emoticon better --> :twisted:

guys, quit arguing this, it's not about the definition of "modern" it's about some people's desire to play a real life nation simulation game with the weapons that alreadfy exist! If they want to have advanced tech, then they can, but if they don't, then they can ignore it, cuz there are plenty of nations out there that want to pretend they're existing in 2003, regardless of how absurd it seems that they could just research it faster and call themselves modern.

but the problem is that in order for it to not burn in athmosphere, it needs to be quite big. When its quite big, its easier to hit.

Not necessarily. ICBM warheads are fairly small, and yet they still manage to survive re-entry. This is due to the use of re-entry shrouds, which are essentially ablative shielding that burns off and spares the warhead so covered.

Another solution would be to use very tough and/or very refractive material, coupled with sacrificial heat sinks or re-entry shrouds. Project Thor, which I've mentioned several times, would have used approximately 1-meter x 3-meter cylinders of stainless steel (by the hundreds) in orbit, which could be de-orbited on ballistic tracks to destroy bridges, highway crossings, and other strategic logistics points in advance of a Soviet attack on Western Europe. Congress didn't buy into it because of the expense.

Another method of destroying orbital dropped rocks would be by lasers. Ofcourse these would easilly need to be in the few hundred terawatt range to be of any practical use but they would be the most accurate and propably more effective than a nuke since at a few hundred terawatt range there will be quite rapid vaporization on the asteroid which allready equals an explosion. So with luck the laser wouldnt even need to shatter/destroy the asteroid because the effect of the rapid vaporization would throw it off course.

But ofcourse, a laser weapon like this would allready require quite a bit of advanced technology to achieve but they could do it.

At the moment- using current technology- power throughput for lasers is insufficient to the task of destroying even lightweight satellites in orbit from the ground. Too much of the laser energy is lost due to atmospheric thermal bloom. The US Navy has been working on a project for several years to try and develop an anti-air/anti-missile laser system to be mounted on capital ships, but they're stuck on the same problem. Energy weapons are insufficient to destroy KEWs using modern tech (read the section in my "Orbital Mechanics" rant about destruction vs mission kill).

What about units like Jedi Knights or other kinds of psychics? I tend to use them along with modern tech (which is kinda weird i know, but whaddya expect from a SW fan?), as i consistently said that they are refugees from the Purges, and not the entire Order as some people tend to think.
IMHO, A Jedi could probably build a lightsaber with a flashlight, a gem, a focusing lens, some coiled wire, and a C-D cell battery, but I don't know. There are real physicists that have said that lightsabers are at least theoretically possible, and I just roleplay that it is possible to build 'em (if i don't i'll change them to katanas aka Japanese swords, where Lucas got the lightsaber from).
Now some people tend to ignore me when they are put into play, but I always counter that you can kill a Jedi with overwhelming firepower (about 20 guns firing from different directions is a good tactic), and even a Jedi Master can't possibly block all the bullets. But *sigh* to some people, Jedi are uberpowerful people that can block everything and use powerful Force moves and cannot be defeated, except by another Jedi. So I just stick to my guns and roleplay my Jedi as special ops people.

OOC: Sounds like you're trying to achieve a balance, but I ask you this; how do you think a Jedi can fashion a lightsabre out of present day technologies? The knowledge and industrial base just isn't there. Think of it in this manner, if you were transported back, say 300 years, do you really think you can make a car? Or even a toaster? Even if you had a team of guys who knew how, I doubt that said "car" or "toaster" would work.



TDP Tech Inc. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1902608#1902608)
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World Factbook Entry: Vrak (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83379&highlight=)

Stealth ships already exist, as do trimarans.

Oh, the Visby corvette that's suffering severe trial setbacks? Or the plastic version of it the US Navy wants?

This is one example of the US not having the best technology - the Russians had the capability to put 120 tonns of payload into space.

LOL? The russian "cargo ship" used to resupply the ISS takes ... 3.2 tons! The Zenit-2 can get a staggering ... 13 tons into orbit. The UR-700M was cancelled for feasibility reasons (it aimed to deliver 750 tonnes of payload). The Energia, the biggest I could find after a lot of research, can deliver 18 tons to geo-stat orbit, or 100 tons @ 51 degree LEO. Sadly but unsurprisingly, the cost wasn't available. However, rockets in space do not make for suitable ortillery platforms. As soon as you consider fuel, systems, crew space, backups, let alone the actual ortillery weapons, you'll find you're well well out of payload. Just imagine what would happen if the International Space Station attempted to fly around and bomb people. /snort

The technology that IRL is considered modern is available now because of how people spend their money. In the NS world, people spend differently, leading to some technologies coming later and some coming sooner, all modern WITHIN THE NS WORLD.

You can't use that as a definition of modern, because there's no way of knowing what's possible and what's not. Modern technology is technology from the IRL present day. It's not technology that could have been developed, (oh well we could have developed flying saucers if Germany had won the war! Yay!) If it doesn't yet exist, it isn't modern unless you twist the definition of modern to mean - essentially - future. Full stop, the end.

As in a heat shield? Sure that would work but consider this, if the asteroid is going too fast, it will need a lot of heat shielding, if its going too slow, it will be an easy target anyway. And there is a limit how big the asteroid needs to be so that its practical to heat-shield it.Ah, you're thinking of ortillery as in falling asteroids? To me, ortillery is more like a huge, falling tungsten rod launched from your everday space shuttle...

Not at all, i consider anything that can be used as a weapon against planetary targets and fired from orbit to be a form of ortillery. Someone just mentioned meteorites used as form of bombs. And the tungsten rod is hardly far fetched. From what i know the US Military is allready seriously considering this sort of weapon but the velocities it reaches are relatively low and its mass also is rather low so the actual resulting kinetic energy release of the impact would also be rather low. And it would hardly replace artillery.

Not necessarily. ICBM warheads are fairly small, and yet they still manage to survive re-entry. This is due to the use of re-entry shrouds, which are essentially ablative shielding that burns off and spares the warhead so covered.

And an ICBM has less direct frontal contact surface to take the heat of athmosphere caused friction than a large asteroid. An asteroid also has worser density and structural integrity than a simple long rod so to speak.

nother solution would be to use very tough and/or very refractive material, coupled with sacrificial heat sinks or re-entry shrouds. Project Thor, which I've mentioned several times, would have used approximately 1-meter x 3-meter cylinders of stainless steel (by the hundreds) in orbit, which could be de-orbited on ballistic tracks to destroy bridges, highway crossings, and other strategic logistics points in advance of a Soviet attack on Western Europe. Congress didn't buy into it because of the expense.

Sure, but if you start putting too much protection to an asteroid, it gets unpractical to use the asteroid at all. Well that project certainly doesnt sound like a bad idea and its feasible even with 2000 to 2010 technology. So it seems that people are pissed off of ortillery even when its feasible, because they cant do anything to it? Also, about this Project Thor yet, depending on the re-entry velocity of the rounds it could be possible to use some form of counter-missiles to punch them off their path. But as you said, it would be pretty damn expensive even to mount a (relatively) small ortillery project like this, not even mentioning large networks of ortillery satellites.

At the moment- using current technology- power throughput for lasers is insufficient to the task of destroying even lightweight satellites in orbit from the ground. Too much of the laser energy is lost due to atmospheric thermal bloom. The US Navy has been working on a project for several years to try and develop an anti-air/anti-missile laser system to be mounted on capital ships, but they're stuck on the same problem. Energy weapons are insufficient to destroy KEWs using modern tech (read the section in my "Orbital Mechanics" rant about destruction vs mission kill).

I know, thats why i said it would require quite a bit of post-modern tech to build such a laser but primarily its just a power problem. And my idea about the lasers was basically trying to destroy the objects upon re-entry, not when they are still in orbit. Primarily it depends upon what kind of energy weapon and how much energy you can feed to it. If you get enough power to run a 100 terawatt laser then you also got an effective anti-missile/ballistic weapon system. Another option would ofcourse be a particle beam weapon of somekind. Its feasible, as long as you put a few hundred billion to researching it and allready are in around 2020 area considering that the weapon was first considered by Nikolai Tesla, 66 years ago. Another possibility would be a railgun, feasible again as long as you are acting with slight future tech and many many billions put to the project. Considering how the US Navy is in stage of development with railguns for capital ships, a stationary gun with a power feed from a fusion reactor wouldnt be that far future tech.

Stealth ships already exist, as do trimarans.
That is true but the stealth isn't particulalrly efficient, and as the ships get larger the stealth gets worse. The largest stealth ship in the real world, I believe, is the Floreal, its the size of a large frigate/ small destroyer but is stealthed to such a degree where it might not get picked up on a really crappy low power radar like a 'Skinhead', but that might just not pick a normal ship up anyway. On the other hand there is the 'Sea Wraith 2' which is about the best stealthed ship out there. It is a small frigate, and even so would get detected by most of the better radars.
In conclusion. Stealth on ships exists, but it only works efficiently on small ships, simply because it is hard to make a large object go unnoticed.

Also modern = Stuff we have around today. I'm fed up with people claiming to be using 'modern tech' as "we could have it if we'd been putting 12 trillion dollars into it a year since the War of the Roses."

And on Jedi. You can't make a lightsabre using modern stuff. What you could make is something that projects a very strong laser beam out the end of it. This would a)not block stuff or knock it back, b) not parry and c)not actually have an end, it would have a continuing beam that got weaker and weaker the further away from the source it went. Oh yes, and on Katanas...they can't knock bullets back you know. And while we're on the subject of starwars, lasers are not brightly coloured beams that move very slowly towards the enemy with a fancy special effects noise.

*Breaks into tech discussion*

Besides, having balanced tech, helps, too, even if it`s totally stupid, irreal, impossible.

For example magic simulating what RL (or future) tech can do (Say, conjuring fireballs instead of firing a gun), i have absolutely no problem with it.

The problems begin when you can´t extinguish said fireball with water...

It`s a rule i use for my telepaths... there are ways (for a modern tech nation), to block them, to fight back. Of course, i can´t demand that everyone reads all my posts to know about this ways (especially since i have only mentioned a small part of it in my posts), but one can ask oocly, the answer can be considered ic knowledge (open market, superb civil rights... it´s easy to get the information and even some simpler tech from me...)

Also modern = Stuff we have around today. I'm fed up with people claiming to be using 'modern tech' as "we could have it if we'd been putting 12 trillion dollars into it a year since the War of the Roses."


Amen brother. The aforementioned dispute with Imortia was on ETC tech for tank guns. he insisted it was modern, but couldn't produce any examples and claimed modern tech leaps to produce it. :roll: He got rather hot under the collar when I insisted it was near moder, but not modern. :?

And on Jedi. You can't make a lightsabre using modern stuff. What you could make is something that projects a very strong laser beam out the end of it. This would a)not block stuff or knock it back, b) not parry and c)not actually have an end, it would have a continuing beam that got weaker and weaker the further away from the source it went. Oh yes, and on Katanas...they can't knock bullets back you know. And while we're on the subject of starwars, lasers are not brightly coloured beams that move very slowly towards the enemy with a fancy special effects noise.

Techinically, the lasers of Star Wars are not lasers in our sense of the word because they have very different properties. I tend to think that they are electromagnetic beams of coherent energy that kill, and are called lasers because it's convenient. Either that or some kind of cold plasma bound by ions. Take your pick of theories.

Hmmm... EM beams of coherent energy == lasers. Or masers, or rasers, or eximer lasers, or . Still lightspeed weapons. As for 'cold plasma bound by ions...' simply put, no. Cold plasma itself is a contradiction in terms, unless we're talking about medical blood supplies, and your average Cl- or C-4 ion simply isn't powerful enough to contain plasma.

Let's face it: In [i]Star Wars and Star Trek and the like, technology takes backseat to story. The technology required to make a lightsaber borders on clarketech; likewise with transporters that can beam people around thousands of kilometers.

Seeing how not everyone wants to deal with physics, NS should be approximately the same way, where tech serves the storyline. If tech simply becomes OOH LOOKIT MY SPACEDYSHIP IT PWNS J00 then what's the point? Ignore cannons away. If the tech isn't really relevant except to tell a story, then that's fine.

For example, the people with OMGZ0R PLANNET KILLERS:

Bad: OMGZ0R I HAVE PLANNET KILLERS BOW DOWN BYATCHES LOLOLOLOZ0R!!!!!!!shiftonehelddown!!!!1!!!

This person will be ignored.

Better: Some fiendish captain of one of these planet killers decides to go around subjugating aboriginal populaces by convincing them that he's a god. "What, don't believe me? *FOOM* No more mountain for you." The opposition (the "good" guys) either utilize weaknesses in the planetkiller or circumvent said planetkiller entirely (by abducting the captain, whatever) to stop this. Both sides never intend to actually blow up planets; it's merely a Plot Device (TM).

This situation could actually work. I'm not one for planet killers, but they could be useful in a storytelling sense.

Okay... that was meandering. I hate being sick. Anyway, in short, story is important. Not technology.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

Speaking of planetkillers, If they're anything like Death Stars, all we have to do is send some young Force-sensitive/psychic pilots down the trench and have them send some proton torpedoes into the 2 meter-wide exhaust port/entrance to reactor and the Death Star is space dust.:P:P It also helps if those pilots are good at flying through canyons.:D Other planetkillers? I dunno. There's always a weakness, somewhere.

Speaking of planetkillers, If they're anything like Death Stars, all we have to do is send some young Force-sensitive/psychic pilots down the trench and have them send some proton torpedoes into the 2 meter-wide exhaust port/entrance to reactor and the Death Star is space dust.:P:P It also helps if those pilots are good at flying through canyons.:D Other planetkillers? I dunno. There's always a weakness, somewhere.there are not death stars, as no one has a 1 trillion pop capable of spending 1500 trillion on an easily-destroyed battlestation.

I think I'm right and you think you're right. Your opinions don't seem like they'll change, and mine certainly won't (as I've read about RL plans for stealth trimaran (http://www.vtplc.com/group/newsdetails.asp?s=&ItemID=38)s, ortillery, etc.). People are starting to get annoyed, and I think it's time to stop arguing.

lol yeah, the point is, people can ignore whoever they want, the end.

K, I'm gonna go now, my modern-tech nation is being attacked by 46238 elves in X-Wings controlling them with telepathy firing anti-matter-tipped arrows. :)

K, I'm gonna go now, my modern-tech nation is being attacked by 46238 elves in X-Wings controlling them with telepathy firing anti-matter-tipped arrows. :)

Just pelt 'em with ham sandwiches from your RonCo Trebuchet-o-matic. This will debolitize their psychic framistats and allow you to thoroughly rick-bidgit their dewjaws.

:lol:

Planet killers are possible, just not economicaly feasable, it would cost more than any nation here could even hope to put up to simply run the damned thing. Anyone know what kind of power would be required to blow up a planet with a laser? I'm thinking it would be messured in trillians of terrawats, if not more.

Planet killers are possible, just not economicaly feasable, it would cost more than any nation here could even hope to put up to simply run the damned thing. Anyone know what kind of power would be required to blow up a planet with a laser? I'm thinking it would be messured in trillians of terrawats, if not more.

Ah, Grasshopper. You are forgetting that such a device "exists" in a movie, and this is all the justification most players require. Actually determining the feasibility of anything shown in the movies is as far beyond them as snatching the pebble from my hand is beyond you.

We shall now consider the ant ...

Planet killers are possible, just not economicaly feasable, it would cost more than any nation here could even hope to put up to simply run the damned thing. Anyone know what kind of power would be required to blow up a planet with a laser? I'm thinking it would be messured in trillians of terrawats, if not more.

The absolute minimum for overcoming the gravitational binding energy of a earth sized planet is 2.4E32 Watts. So a helluva lot of watts.

LOL

An Analogy:

A 2 Billion Pop nation is to the Galactic Empire, as the hobo on 5th street is to Bill Gates and Donald Trump and Steve Forbes Together.

The empire had TRILLIONS of people,TENS OF THOUSANDS of PLANETS. They probably have a GDP of $999,999,999,999,999,999!!!!!

A death star would cost around 1500 trillion dollars and to build it in anything less than 1000 years would take an ENTIRE POPULATION OF 2 BILLION!

Thusly, DEATH STARS ARE IGNORED :)

However, other planet killers... hmm... *Capsule Has one* hehehehe

Actually, the Empire consisted of millions of worlds. Coruscant allready in itself had nearly or over a trillion inhabitants.

even better... this is why I ignore soviet trasa :P

But master, there is no pebble in your hand, for to say that is to state that there is a you, and an I.

*reguards the ant* and on that topic, there would be no difference between the ant and the majority of Space Nations on here, able to do anything reguardless of size and feasability, simply because they belive they can. Good Roleplaying know this, and know what they can and can not support. . . though I'm one to talk, I think I've got a larger space fleet than nearly anyone here. . . course 91% of it is in drydock at any given time, but the fact remains, and no, I don't have any one shot planet killers, it would take my entire fleet firing at the same time to destroy a planet, and thats a hell of a lot of money in operating costs, supplies, wages, ect. But, I might be the only one who self balances, rather than trying to out do everyone.

Indeed, and people forget that the Empire consisted of a goverment that had been growing for over 25,000 years. The Star Wars galaxy allready had advanced space travelling 25,000 years before the Empire and that includes technology that was sufficient to bombard the surface of a planet to hell with relative ease. So in essence, even if we assume that 1 RL day is really 10 NS years, it would take 2500 days or around 7 years in RL time to achieve what the Empire had.

Indeed, and people forget that the Empire consisted of a goverment that had been growing for over 25,000 years. The Star Wars galaxy allready had advanced space travelling 25,000 years before the Empire and that includes technology that was sufficient to bombard the surface of a planet to hell with relative ease. So in essence, even if we assume that 1 RL day is really 10 NS years, it would take 2500 days or around 7 years in RL time to achieve what the Empire had.

I'll be back in seven years... :twisted:

Morons. Any kind of 'planet-killer' is just totally unnacceptable, and sure to get yourself ignored by Pantera if you use it, threaten with it, or even think about it.

Any kind of Mass desctruction weapon is just a crutch for a weak ass roleplayer. I could march my Reavers through your streets, root your citizens from thier beds, build a giant funeral pyre and start marching them towards it. Soon I'll have most if not all of your population either dead or capitulated, and then I can begin the real purges.

But, with a 'Death-Star' or a 'Bull-Shit', you can fire it off and suddenly you win? Fuck that and fuck you. They mean shit, they're not feasible, and it would ruin any hope of a decent RP. So, I ask you what is the point? Sure, it would be fun to go against it and try to take it down, but 9/10's of the morons here would blast the fucker off and to hell with everything. You should never, ever use your big guns, as the threat of total obliteration should be enough to bludgeon anyone into submissiveness. If it's not enough to keep them down, tough shit. Keep it in your pants and deal with it in another way.

Keep your death stars, Doom Lazers, uber-nukes, radioactive penises and 6 mile ships. I'll keep a bowl handy so I can poop in your soup and forget you ever existed.

Though a good portion of that was more or less uncomprehencible babble, I agree with Pantera somewhat. Lets not forget the prevalence of Carpet Nuking from modern nations and the ungoddly number of godmodders from baby nations. Every tech level has godmodders, and every tech level has really bad roleplayers, if you decide to not roleplay with space nations as a whole, I can't stop you, but you are missing out on a golden opertunity to RP with damned fine players. That, however, is your loss.

~this post has been deleted per CRAPPY FORUMS THAT OVER POST!!!

~anouther ungodly large multipost shot down in flames

~multipost killed per Taka

~this multipost no longer exists

~there is no multipost here. . . anymore. . .

~cocks shotgun, takes aim, blows away anouther accursed multipost

~anouther multipost, anouther bullet

~deleted per double post~

WTF, man? The dreaded NS multipost strikes again!

However, I agree, its just that Space Nations against Modern Nations increases the likelyhood of godmodding simply by their technologically superior state.

a good point, but nothing that couldn't be remedied by TGing the person and working out rules to go by.

~deleted per double post~

Check the previous page. :roll:

Uhm, you know you can just COMPLETELY delete the multi-posts. Thats what i do if i get two instead of one. Edit, and delete.

Not if you don't catch it right away, by the time I found the problem the delete tab had vanished, so it was edit or nothing.

Yeah, that is a bit problematic but i guess its just good that you can delete your post for the first few minutes instead of going and deleting a post that begun a war that destroyed a big part of your navy 4 weeks before :lol:

I think you can delete (or edit without it being marked as such) up until the point that someone posts after you. At that point you can't.

So if he'd been quick, Taka could have deleted each one of his extras in turn. But without knowing that (and with all the people adding to the thread) there really isn't much we can do.

But we could always get back on topic some time, couldn't we?

Hmmm... EM beams of coherent energy == lasers. Or masers, or rasers, or eximer lasers, or . Still lightspeed weapons. As for 'cold plasma bound by ions...' simply put, no. Cold plasma itself is a contradiction in terms, unless we're talking about medical blood supplies, and your average Cl- or C-4 ion simply isn't powerful enough to contain plasma.

Let's face it: In [i]Star Wars and Star Trek and the like, technology takes backseat to story. The technology required to make a lightsaber borders on clarketech; likewise with transporters that can beam people around thousands of kilometers.

Seeing how not everyone wants to deal with physics, NS should be approximately the same way, where tech serves the storyline. If tech simply becomes OOH LOOKIT MY SPACEDYSHIP IT PWNS J00 then what's the point? Ignore cannons away. If the tech isn't really relevant except to tell a story, then that's fine.

For example, the people with OMGZ0R PLANNET KILLERS:

Bad: OMGZ0R I HAVE PLANNET KILLERS BOW DOWN BYATCHES LOLOLOLOZ0R!!!!!!!shiftonehelddown!!!!1!!!

This person will be ignored.

Better: Some fiendish captain of one of these planet killers decides to go around subjugating aboriginal populaces by convincing them that he's a god. "What, don't believe me? *FOOM* No more mountain for you." The opposition (the "good" guys) either utilize weaknesses in the planetkiller or circumvent said planetkiller entirely (by abducting the captain, whatever) to stop this. Both sides never intend to actually blow up planets; it's merely a Plot Device (TM).

This situation could actually work. I'm not one for planet killers, but they could be useful in a storytelling sense.

Okay... that was meandering. I hate being sick. Anyway, in short, story is important. Not technology.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo


Wow a physicist.

I think I'm right and you think you're right. Your opinions don't seem like they'll change, and mine certainly won't (as I've read about RL plans for stealth trimaran (http://www.vtplc.com/group/newsdetails.asp?s=&ItemID=38)s, ortillery, etc.). People are starting to get annoyed, and I think it's time to stop arguing.

I just checked up on your trimaran...its a corvette. Its a very small ship.

On "Ortillery"

the US Military is allready seriously considering this sort of weapon but the velocities it reaches are relatively low and its mass also is rather low so the actual resulting kinetic energy release of the impact would also be rather low. And it would hardly replace artillery.

Yes but the US military is also considering ornithopters and they're the biggest waste of time and money since the Bay of Pigs.

I just checked up on your trimaran...its a corvette. Its a very small ship.Yes, it is a corvette. One that's longer than the old FF-1037 Bronstein, but still a corvette.
The Triton, at 100m, is 2/3 the size of a proposed future frigate replacement.

Space tech is awesome!

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On "Ortillery"

the US Military is allready seriously considering this sort of weapon but the velocities it reaches are relatively low and its mass also is rather low so the actual resulting kinetic energy release of the impact would also be rather low. And it would hardly replace artillery.

Yes but the US military is also considering ornithopters and they're the biggest waste of time and money since the Bay of Pigs.

Perhaps, but that is a bit of red herring. We are discussing the feasibility of some form of rudimentary ortillery system here and using the simple tungsten steel rod on orbit method, such an ortillery would be quite feasible within 10 years from now.

Don't have time to read through this whole thread to see if this has been said, but i ignore space tech nations because thats not the RP environment i want to be in. I'm assuming the real world (1 day RL = 1 yr NS, amusingly today is 2003), and there are no aliens (give it up, the probability of 2 intelligent races existing at the same time is approximately 0). I want to RP the triumphs and tragedies of a real world nation as it develops. Now, as the years advance and my nation acquires more technology, i'll slowly drift into post-modern, and maybe eventually into space tech, but i also don't want to play a fantasy nation (no FTL, nothing that violates general relativity or special relativity, etc...). Thus i exclude certain nations because they are looking for a different environment than i am. I respect your right to choose that RPing environment, but not all of us want that.

Calcednie: Regarding the alien comment, have you even done research to this matter? Obviously not because even when using some of the most pessimistic estimates and then doing calculations, there should be atleast hundreds of other species out there. Even if the propability of similar kind of evolution as we've had on Earth would be 0,00001% , there still would be hundreds of Earth like planets with life on them. Now the assumption that we are the only "intelligent" ( i say it in quotation marks because human race is very very dumb) race out here is the product of pure skepticism and lack of belief.

Don't have time to read through this whole thread to see if this has been said, but i ignore space tech nations because thats not the RP environment i want to be in. I'm assuming the real world (1 day RL = 1 yr NS, amusingly today is 2003), and there are no aliens (give it up, the probability of 2 intelligent races existing at the same time is approximately 0). I want to RP the triumphs and tragedies of a real world nation as it develops. Now, as the years advance and my nation acquires more technology, i'll slowly drift into post-modern, and maybe eventually into space tech, but i also don't want to play a fantasy nation (no FTL, nothing that violates general relativity or special relativity, etc...). Thus i exclude certain nations because they are looking for a different environment than i am. I respect your right to choose that RPing environment, but not all of us want that.Calcednie: Regarding the alien comment, have you even done research to this matter? Obviously not because even when using some of the most pessimistic estimates and then doing calculations, there should be atleast hundreds of other species out there. Even if the propability of similar kind of evolution as we've had on Earth would be 0,00001% , there still would be hundreds of Earth like planets with life on them. Now the assumption that we are the only "intelligent" ( i say it in quotation marks because human race is very very dumb) race out here is the product of pure skepticism and lack of belief.
I mostly agree with Calcednie as to technology/time-scale/RP-environment. I personnally try to remain in the limits of what today's science accept, and a little bit further sometimes as I consider my nation "advanced". But indeed, fundamental rules shall not be broken. All technologies should use current or 'soon-to-be' scientific knowledge. For instance, I tend to ignore weapons/engines/whatever based on energies that we currently do not master (ie fusion, gravitic, etc).

Regarding the alien races problem, I only accept elves and consider them as humans, for commodity reasons.
More generally Clairmont, of course there are estimates. I won't pretend that there are, in the absolute, no other species similar to humans with similar 'capacity to invent' (that's how intelligence is described, and I agree, humans are dumb), but we currently have no proof that they exist. Estimates are based on other estimates, which are themselves based on mathematics calculations from physics laws that we have been able to observe and modelize until now, and which result of considering one possible system among others, at least regarding the Universe. Therefore, even if there were other 'intelligent' species as could be the case, these would be a few light-years from Earth and at the RP level, they could not be considered as 'existing' since it seems Calcednie (and I, also) wants things to be based on scientific facts rather than on hypothetic pseudo-scientific knowledge.

I personally dont ignore anyone (unless they massivly godmod against me, and even then I wouldent completely ignore them), as a world with endless variations of technology levels is what appeals to me so much about the game, it isint that big an issue for Buri, becouse of its pacifism though. Im really not sure what tech level to call Buri anyways, its a blend of feudal europeon, modern, and a bit of future. (i.e. armored knights living in condos that perform their drills in mech suits. ^_^)

Correct, there is no evidence of other intelligent life except for us. But consider this, how large is the Milky Way? About 100,000 LY. Lets assume that the distance between Earth and some other planet with intelligent life is 10,000 lightyears. Now if we assume they are 1000 years more advanced than us so in essence they began lightspeed communications transmissions around 1000 years before we did, we still wouldnt be recieving those transmissions in another 9,000 years. The primary flaw in the thinking "we dont have any evidence" is the assumption that those possible aliens would be close enough for us to GET any evidence of them.
Another possibility is that if there are race/races advanced enough out there that they master interstellar travel, what possible reason would they have to contact a planet full of war-mongering barbarians who think they know the secrets of the universe?

Its not pseudo-science, its simple logic and maths. The lack of scientific facts on alien existance has so many explanations that i can make a book out of them. Its just the way of the "we are alone" believers to automatically assume that since there is no evidence (despite the fact that the evidence just may not have reached us yet) they dont exist despite the mathematical and logical silliness of that assumption. And ofcourse its hypothetic, but remember that so has every scientific fact been some time ago. It was a hypothecy that universe consisted of very small pieces (atoms), it was pseudo-scientific garble that Earth wasnt the center of the universe and in reality was spherical etcetera etcetera etcetera. Its all a matter of faith. You can allways pull the "lack of evidence" card but the facts are that 1: If the aliens are extremely advanced, they have no reason to contact us. 2: If the aliens are far away enough, we wouldnt have recieved any lightspeed transmissions that could be evidence of their existence.

In addition, we have allready discovered 6 solar systems that are very similar to our solar system and what is considered most important for the formation of life on a planet is the distance between the planet in question and its sun. The current researchers and scientists actually state that it feels rather impossible that life wouldnt have born anywhere else on the universe or intelligent life for that matter.

Clairmont:
I said I did not pretend aliens do not exist, only that if they do exist, we had no evidence of it. Of course, as you say, there can be many many reasons why we do not have evidence - time-space distance, etc.
But while having no evidence of it is not enough to deny their existence (and I do not deny it), at least it is enough to 1) doubt of their existence and 2) consider they do not play any interfering role when taking decisions in your everyday life/in terms of roleplay, taking decisions at the country/world level.

Now, of course, science is all made of hypothecy. But I remind you that as long as hypothecy is not verified by facts, it remains hypothecy, unverified, and therefore, shall not be considered with such a level of certainty. That's why you are quite right when you say it's all a matter of faith. And AFAIC, I am rather reluctant to give my faith to things that are very very far from being verified. There are hypothesis that we will be able to verify in a few years or tens of years, and these may be worth believing, but there are other that will not be able to verify due to simple material constraints, and therefore we should concentrate on what we should be able to prove soon, not on what could someday in the far future prove true. Because if it finally proves false, then it's not a few years of theories but hundreds which result false. And you know like me what would happen today if something was to demolish the current physics theories after only 150 years of scientific research.
For instance, if you are interested in the physics of universe, you must have heard of the recent study that has elaborated a theory from mathematical modeling which renders the Universe as a (finite) dodecahedric space of Poincarré - probably the most important re-conception since Einstein and the 'universe in infinite expansion'.

So, of course, there are star systems similar to ours that would present the required conditions to allow the presence of liquid water and therefore the development of life, but so what ? Every system has its particularities, and life is the result of very complex process so you cannot conclude anything, except the fact that life is more likely to develop there and there, a few thousands light-years from us... and in that case, what does it change ? There's life somewhere else - it's great, but quite useless to know since we can't even get there and say hello...

I just checked up on your trimaran...its a corvette. Its a very small ship.Yes, it is a corvette. One that's longer than the old FF-1037 Bronstein, but still a corvette.
The Triton, at 100m, is 2/3 the size of a proposed future frigate replacement.

Its smaller than any of the other stealth ships out there as well. The Sea Wraith 2 is 138m long.

Correct, there is no evidence of other intelligent life except for us. But consider this, how large is the Milky Way? About 100,000 LY. Lets assume that the distance between Earth and some other planet with intelligent life is 10,000 lightyears. Now if we assume they are 1000 years more advanced than us so in essence they began lightspeed communications transmissions around 1000 years before we did, we still wouldnt be recieving those transmissions in another 9,000 years. The primary flaw in the thinking "we dont have any evidence" is the assumption that those possible aliens would be close enough for us to GET any evidence of them.
Another possibility is that if there are race/races advanced enough out there that they master interstellar travel, what possible reason would they have to contact a planet full of war-mongering barbarians who think they know the secrets of the universe?

Its not pseudo-science, its simple logic and maths. The lack of scientific facts on alien existance has so many explanations that i can make a book out of them. Its just the way of the "we are alone" believers to automatically assume that since there is no evidence (despite the fact that the evidence just may not have reached us yet) they dont exist despite the mathematical and logical silliness of that assumption. And ofcourse its hypothetic, but remember that so has every scientific fact been some time ago. It was a hypothecy that universe consisted of very small pieces (atoms), it was pseudo-scientific garble that Earth wasnt the center of the universe and in reality was spherical etcetera etcetera etcetera. Its all a matter of faith. You can allways pull the "lack of evidence" card but the facts are that 1: If the aliens are extremely advanced, they have no reason to contact us. 2: If the aliens are far away enough, we wouldnt have recieved any lightspeed transmissions that could be evidence of their existence.

In addition, we have allready discovered 6 solar systems that are very similar to our solar system and what is considered most important for the formation of life on a planet is the distance between the planet in question and its sun. The current researchers and scientists actually state that it feels rather impossible that life wouldnt have born anywhere else on the universe or intelligent life for that matter.

Why don't you check out the work that has been done on the Drake Equation (also occasionally referred to as the Green Banks Equation). The only way you get a significant number of other species is with very optimistic estimates, and those estimates are very unreasonable. In the original formulation, average estimates generated about 2 intelligent races at any time (and we're 1 of those), and 'pessimistic' (realistic) estimates were at < 1 at any given point in time. Since the initial formulation, the range of parameter estimates given has been shifting farther and farther towards the pessimistic side, until the optimists are only predicting a handful in the most recent work, and even the average predicts < 1. The fact of the matter remains that the duration of any given species is so small in the lifetime of the universe, and the conditions necessary for it to evolve rather specific, that its unlikely 2 such species would ever co-occur.

And this doesnt even begin to address my point of realistic versus magical technology. Even if there is another intelligent species, it will not have cold plasma/FTL/femto-machines, or any of the other magical technology that many spacetech people use. Ie, even if 2 did exist, we'd probably never contact them (especially since much of the universe is unknowable to us because it is expanding away from us faster than c).

And this doesnt even begin to address my point of realistic versus magical technology. Even if there is another intelligent species, it will not have cold plasma/FTL/femto-machines, or any of the other magical technology that many spacetech people use. Ie, even if 2 did exist, we'd probably never contact them (especially since much of the universe is unknowable to us because it is expanding away from us faster than c).

The fact that the universe expands away from us faster than c violates relativity, doesn't it?