NationStates Jolt Archive

After one of my recruiters posted a recruitment message in the West Pacific feeder zone, she received an angry response from on of the WP residents about violating the "24 hour rule" in posting advertisements. I should mention that the recruiter nation is a native and resident of the WP.

This is the answer she sent (the nation of the fellow WP nation is removed for privacy purposes) :

Thanks, [name removed], but once you've become Delegate in the WP you can advise me on regional advertisements. The simple fact is that these feeders zones are not regions----as much as you'd like them to be. It's not like you or any of the other WP nations took the time to form a user-created region and grow it accordingly. To complain about ads on the feeder zone RMB's is not only pointless, it's silly.

Do all of us advertisers a favor, [name removed]. Leave the WP, form a region of your own and THEN denigrate the wisdom of posting in the feeder zones. If you dislike frequent posting of what you all unfairly label "spam," the solution is to LEAVE THE FEEDER ZONE. Then you'll have a legitimate gripe about posts on the RMB.

Oh, and have a great day. You can send this response to the mods along with the screenshot of the regional posts.


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Are these feeder zones really regions? I'd be interested in a concensus on this. And yes, the NS rules are what they are. The question I'm asking tells me whether this is a rule in dire need of change.

I'm not a mod, but here's my personal 2 cents:

There IS a 24 hour rule for posting in a feeder. If your friend violated that rule, she was in the wrong.

Also, while the people in the feeders have to tolerate spam (as long as the spammer follows the rules), they don't have to like it, and are free to complain all they want (not that it helps).

Last, IMO, the feeders ARE regions, though they are different from the user-created regions. But they still want the freedom to communicate on their own RMBs, though it's a losing battle.

You've removed so much that I can't tell who is whining about what, but here's my take.

Of course the feeders are regions. They have residents like other regions. They have a Delegate, and Delegate supporters, and Delegate opponents. They have politics, and active offsite forums. They also have special features required by the game, and the price they are forced to pay is acceptance of advertising.

The adspammers would like to continuously stream their ads all day long. The residents would like to have the same messageboard privileges all the other regions enjoy. The 24 hour rule and the other One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8784627) rules were the best compromise the mods and players could reach after several months of negotiation.

The rules may appear arbitrary, but they're arbitrary by consensus. The fact that you (or this unnamed person) thinks they're suddenly "in dire need of change" tells me only that you weren't around when the compromise was hammered out. I can assure you that the current ruleset is about the best you're going to get.

I for one motion that the rule be dismissed or at least altered. I personally don't advertise, but the rule is stupid and does absolutely no good for anyone. It's rediculous, and I say Death to it.

Altered?

I'd be perfectly willing to ban it completely.

Hmm...

While you are at that, can you get rid of the delegate there? Think of how much power the delegates have in the UN! Those 5 or 6 regions have at least 2% of the UN Power. It's a conspiracy!

It's also irrelevent, as proven by the vote on Outlaw Necrophilia.

Completely as a player... :rolleyes:

I'd be far more sympathetic to the resident nations of the feeder zones if they didn't make active attempts to clear the authorized advertisements by posting meaningless statements on the RMB. To suggest a compromise was reached ignores the fact that each of the feeder zones make a game out of clearing the ads user-created regions take the time to draft and make the effort to post every 24 hours.

I wish it were possible to simply prohibit the formation of "regions" in the feeder zones. That's not really what these areas of Nation States were created for, and it does a disservice to those nations interested in forming user-created regions.

As my region-mate posted in her answer in the West Pacific, all these residents of the feeder zones have to do to avoid what they----in violation of NS rules----unfairly characterize as spam is to LEAVE the feeder zone and form a region. That solves the problem of the "spam" of which they complain.

And NO, it's not too much to ask of them. The feeder zones simply are not regions as contemplated by this game. The fact that several nations decided to set up camp there and create forums as a short-cut to actually forming a real region does not convert the feeder zone into a region, no matter how much others would like to see them as such.

Just my two cents.

I'd be far more sympathetic to the resident nations of the feeder zones if they didn't make active attempts to clear the authorized advertisements by posting meaningless statements on the RMB.In ten minutes, all the other advertisers would bump your ad off anyway. Don't try to pin the problem on residents having conversations because they want to actually use their board.

To suggest a compromise was reached ignores the fact that each of the feeder zones make a game out of clearing the ads user-created regions take the time to draft and make the effort to post every 24 hours.Then maybe you should quit wasting your precious time. What's the definition of insanity again?

I wish it were possible to simply prohibit the formation of "regions" in the feeder zones.Any area where nations are located are regions. The residents of the Feeders didn't "form" regions. Those locations are regions, and we're not going to change the coding of the game to make it easier for you to spam advertisments.

That's not really what these areas of Nation States were created for, and it does a disservice to those nations interested in forming user-created regions.Really? When did you become Max? Who are you to say what anything was created for?

That solves the problem of the "spam" of which they complain.So would you and yours no longer placing ads in feeders. Should I delete my e-mail account every two days to "solve" the problem of spam?

The feeder zones simply are not regions as contemplated by this game.Wrong.

I hate to break it to you, but your opinion of what "counts" as a region means absolutely nothing. They are regions, and you banging on about how the game "contemplates" things won't change it.

Hurrah for you, you can complain about how the Pacific Regions supposedly "aren't regions". The Pacific Regions are as much a Region as any region. As I believe was stated earlier, they get free members (when they join) but for this advantage they must accept the disadvantage of advertisements on their boards and Ad Telegrams to their members (I recieved over 4 in a couple days). This seems fair to me.

Some people just like being in the Largest regions. The Pacific regions are the largest and grow considerably as new people join. Therefore those in the Pacific regions consider them as much a region as any other, as do many outside them.

Altered?

I'd be perfectly willing to ban it completely.

Should you make that decision, could it also apply to the rejected realms?

Should you make that decision, could it also apply to the rejected realms?

And Lazarus too, for that matter.

hive-west_pacific has been deleted for endless spamming of the region the_west_pacific after being warned.

Kids, don't make up your own rules, or you'll find yourself losing nations. And if you keep spamming with new puppets, we will oblige you by escalating the punishment.

Yes, thanks alot for that, Kat. I just want to know whether the mod team really intends that user-created regions will be allowed to advertise AT ALL in the feeder zones? HIVE-WP was deleted for reposting the ads of OTHER regions over in an effort to keep ads visible for the newly-created regions. And HIVE-WP was conversing with other WP residents explaining WHY this was being done, and asking them to stop wiping the boards with spam. When they kept posting, HIVE-WP kept posting. And you DEAT'd that nation without a warning. Certainly your perogative, but is it fair? And are the moderators supposed to be fair in this game? I believe that most mods are, but I do take issue with how this was handled.

The WP residents were not "conversing" the way we do in user-regions, mods; they were making posts to clear off the ads. They even acknowledged that some of their posts were "word-play" prohibited by the very rules you are obliged to enforce. But that was not even considered (apparently) in the manner in which this was resolved.

So how about actually enforcing the rule allowing posts of ads---but doing so in an even-handed manner?

Respecfully, Moderator Hack, it's not enough to be smug about it---that doesn't fairly resolve the question of whether advertisements are allowed, and whether natives can play word games to wipe the authorized ads. And yes, new ads will revolve others off. That's fair, and just part of the game.

But not to even allow the ads to be read defeats the purpose of posting them. It's not insanity to want to advertise your regions, is it Moderator Hack? If you're going to moderate this game fairly, you have to appreciate that basic, obvious point (I would hope.)

I'm not being disrespectful here, I'm just asking for fairness on behalf of the user-created regions.

And remember----the rule authorizes the posting. It's not like I made this up, right? I'm not sure how that converts into insanity.

In any event, the rule is what it is. One post per nation per region per day. Can we expect the mods to allow these ads by preventing them from being rotated out by natives or not?

And Lazarus too, for that matter.

What exactly is lazarus? A max berry created region that doesn't have a special function like the feeders and rejected realms do?

HIVE-WP was deleted for reposting the ads of OTHER regions over in an effort to keep ads visible for the newly-created regions. And HIVE-WP was conversing with other WP residents explaining WHY this was being done, and asking them to stop wiping the boards with spam. When they kept posting, HIVE-WP kept posting. And you DEAT'd that nation without a warning. Certainly your perogative, but is it fair? And are the moderators supposed to be fair in this game? I believe that most mods are, but I do take issue with how this was handled.

1st Rule: One ad per region per 24 hour period (day is rather meaningless on an international site)
2nd Rule: People are allowed to converse on their regional message board. Whether it be a feeder or a player created region, all residents of a region are entitled to converse on their board.

Therefore... if an ad is moved off a regional message board quickly due to residents talking, even if it's with the recruiter themselves, such is life, and the recruiter now has another 24 hours to wait before they can post the ad again.

Yes, thanks alot for that, Kat. I just want to know whether the mod team really intends that user-created regions will be allowed to advertise AT ALL in the feeder zones? HIVE-WP was deleted for reposting the ads of OTHER regions over in an effort to keep ads visible for the newly-created regions. And HIVE-WP was conversing with other WP residents explaining WHY this was being done, and asking them to stop wiping the boards with spam. When they kept posting, HIVE-WP kept posting. And you DEAT'd that nation without a warning. Certainly your perogative, but is it fair? And are the moderators supposed to be fair in this game? I believe that most mods are, but I do take issue with how this was handled.

The WP residents were not "conversing" the way we do in user-regions, mods; they were making posts to clear off the ads. They even acknowledged that some of their posts were "word-play" prohibited by the very rules you are obliged to enforce. But that was not even considered (apparently) in the manner in which this was resolved.

So how about actually enforcing the rule allowing posts of ads---but doing so in an even-handed manner?

Respecfully, Moderator Hack, it's not enough to be smug about it---that doesn't fairly resolve the question of whether advertisements are allowed, and whether natives can play word games to wipe the authorized ads. And yes, new ads will revolve others off. That's fair, and just part of the game.

But not to even allow the ads to be read defeats the purpose of posting them. It's not insanity to want to advertise your regions, is it Moderator Hack? If you're going to moderate this game fairly, you have to appreciate that basic, obvious point (I would hope.)

I'm not being disrespectful here, I'm just asking for fairness on behalf of the user-created regions.

And remember----the rule authorizes the posting. It's not like I made this up, right? I'm not sure how that converts into insanity.

In any event, the rule is what it is. One post per nation per region per day. Can we expect the mods to allow these ads by preventing them from being rotated out by natives or not?

It is their region, whatever you may think of that. Advertisers are allowed to post one ad per 24 hr period. Residents are allowed to converse on their RMB.

hive-west pacific deliberately flouted that -- I cleared an entire board of his/her posts. They also were telling other nations to break the rules and keep posting their ads, saying that they had the right to do that. They don't.

I would strongly suggest that people stick to the one-per-24-hr rule. This time it was the recruiting puppet. If players insist on deliberately flouting the rules with puppets, they may lose all their nations.

You (collectively, not directed solely at you, HIVE protector) may not agree with the rules, but as with all players, you are bound by them.

I'm not being disrespectful here,
Actually, you're being incredibly disrespectful by taking your own bizarre interpretation of the rules and running with it, despite having been told by two (now FOUR) mods that you had it wrong.
In any event, the rule is what it is. One post per nation per region per day. Can we expect the mods to allow these ads by preventing them from being rotated out by natives or not?
One post per region per day is the rule. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing in that ruling that guarantees that the post remains visible. Please note that we have 12,404 regions, and a total of 10 slots available on each of the feeder regional messageboards. Did we imply that we were expanding the feeder messageboards to accomodate every possible region ad? No, we did not.

Advertisers have one chance, per feeder, per day, to make their case. Residents have the right to hold conversations, even if it drives off the ads. We've been enforcing that rule in this manner for at least a year, maybe two, and we're not going to change it because you've got a bug up your ass about it.
What exactly is lazarus?
That's where resurrected nations come back to life.

What exactly is lazarus? A max berry created region that doesn't have a special function like the feeders and rejected realms do?

A Max Berry created region where nations that get resurrected after dying from lack of activity go. Like the other game-created regions, Lazarus has a spam-infested RMB.

That's fair. Sorry if my tone sounded harsh or in anyway condescending. The situation in the WP started out politely enough, and then turned into a full-blown war that went on for more than an hour. I see now that HIVE-WP was applying the rule incorrectly.

One post per nation per 24 hour period. Got it.

My understanding of the rules is that if anyone other than the region founder posts just to clear the RMB, it's illegal. However, normal communication is legal. So, one native posting "bump" 10 times would be illegal, but natives talking about how much spam sucks is legal, even if it does push said spam off the board. Just my non-modly opinion.

What exactly is lazarus? A max berry created region that doesn't have a special function like the feeders and rejected realms do?

Lazarus is where the dead nations miraculously return to life. It has a special function -- it's where all newly resurrected nations appear.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen. Are feeder zones really regions? Odd, I thought feeders were feeder regions, not zones.

HIVE PROTECTOR, Its not the harsh tone, its the inability to read the rules correctly that I have a problem with.

Hope no-one minds me sticking my nose into this, but having my own region, which I need to recruit for, and having nations in all bar one of the Pacifics, I can understand both sides of this arguement.

Hive, I thought like you for a long while. Used feeder RMB recruiting when my region needed a boost, and did become miffed when the natives would deliberatly scroll my ad off their board. I felt that as long as I was obeying the game rules, and later their own regional unofficial one about ad length, then they really should just leave it alone.

I began to really see the other side when I decided to move this nation to the North Pacific, and make it Witchcliff's home region (will get it back there one of these days). As it is my UN nation, I log into it frequently and as an ingrained habit, always check the regional board when I check the nation. To be frank, always seeing a RMB full of ads, ads, and more ads does get irritating, not to mention boring. It also made me much less inclined to post there (as a region member, not advertiser) because I knew the post would only be there for a short time before the ads bumped it off.

Joining and reading the NP's (and later the WP's) offsite forum(s) gave me more insight into how much this advertising annoys the natives too. As a result of all this, I've moved from RMB ads to TGing newly founded nations instead. TGing is more time intensive and slow, but much less likely to peeve people off.

The best way to recruit is to get either high or low in the rankings. That's how "Axis of Evil" got most of it's nations.

TGing nations is a lot more work than advertising on the RMB, but IME it gives better results.

I conceded that we were wrong in our interpretation of the rule, Caer Rialis. I was arguing that the natives shouldn't be allowed to deliberately knock the ads if the rule authorized their posting. The mods (four of them) have stated pretty definitely that this is a grossly incorrect reading of the rule. I've also received telegrams from a couple of mods which, well, drove the point home more pointedly.

He said.

So yes, that argument is done.

And I agree with you, Witchcliff, about your take on the RMB issue. Several of the WP natives (Lugerian and ROTHEATH) suggested that very thing, but the fight was already on in the WP---we just stopped listening to each other after about 1/2 an hour. In addition to the RMB posts, we also recruit from UN applications and the activity registers in the feeder zones showing the creation of new nations. It's the combination of the three sources that usually produces the best results.

But I get it now, after reflection. The feeder zones have become regions, notwithstanding my personal opinion. I've instructed all HIVE recruiters to respect these zones as such, and we won't have a repeat of the WP War. Count on it.

Hear that, mods? (LOL)

The best way to recruit is to get either high or low in the rankings. That's how "Axis of Evil" got most of it's nations.

How do you do that, AB?

And NO, it's not too much to ask of them. The feeder zones simply are not regions as contemplated by this game. The fact that several nations decided to set up camp there and create forums as a short-cut to actually forming a real region does not convert the feeder zone into a region, no matter how much others would like to see them as such.Excuse me?

Maybe I just like having a West Pacific address; maybe I don't want to have to mess with invaders; maybe I don't want to join a user-created region.

And maybe I don't want to have to read your advertisements. Personally, it's bad enough that I get TG ads to join this reason or that; why should I have to deal with people polluting my regional bulletin board, too?

Read my lips: I don't want to be a part of your infernal region, or anybody else's. Leave me be.

The fact that several nations decided to set up camp there and create forums as a short-cut to actually forming a real region does not convert the feeder zone into a region, no matter how much others would like to see them as such.

Create forums as a short-cut to actually fomring a region? Huh? Feeder regions are diverse simply because anyone can become a member. We don't draw from a geographic location, from an interest group, or for something willy-nilly. This is insulting.

But I get it now, after reflection. The feeder zones have become regions, notwithstanding my personal opinion. I've instructed all HIVE recruiters to respect these zones as such, and we won't have a repeat of the WP War. Count on it.

Hear that, mods? (LOL)

Have become regions? We've been regions since NS began, HIVE PROTECTOR. We've developed governments, governments modelled by many founded regions. We've taken steps to shape the game, notwithstanding restrictions placed on us by Mods. We're as much a part of NS as any other region.

How do you do that, AB?

If your nation scores high/low on a given stat(top/bottom 10000+/-), do everything you can to increase/decrease said stat.

He admitted his mistake, he gets it now, shut up.

St Jello Biafra;11909546']He admitted his mistake, he gets it now, shut up.

And that was pritty much uncalled for....

And that was pritty much uncalled for....
As was that. Leave the modding to the mods, Shaz.

Why is the poll closed?

I wanted to state my opinion without much ado, that feeders are regions, but that opportunity has been taken away...

Why is the poll closed?

I wanted to state my opinion without much ado, that feeders are regions, but that opportunity has been taken away...Because, in this case, opinions are irrelevent. It doesn't matter if players think feeders are or aren't regions. They are. Much like you can't divine a cat's gender by having a bunch of people vote on it, you can't alter what feeders are.

And with that, we're long since done here. Locked.