NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently, the region I live in was invaded by some loser invasion group called Azean Combine, or something like that, and they've put a password on the region.

Since they don't have to give out the region password any more (and indeed, they just sent out a fake password to irritate us natives), they can just kick out each member one by one and then leave a puppet with one other puppet that has an endorsement in the region forever to keep it from dying, keeping anyone from ever getting back in. As it takes 24 hours to get new delegates in, the person in charge will have plenty of warning and can kick the threats out, or bring in reinforcements at will to secure his position.

The same thing can happen to any small region, and of course we have no recourse now-- with the password rule gone, we can't move in friends to remove them and they can just slowly remove us all.

The new rules no longer define 'natives' and 'non-natives'. As such, you have no special rights to the region you call 'home' above anyone who semi-randomly just walks in and likes to get a kick out of being obnoxious to unknown others. And, yes, your analysis is correct: you have been granted no way whatsoever of fighting back against this. Once it has happened, it's too late.

My only suggestion here is for you to found a new region, and have delegate access to regional controls turned off. Make sure that your region always has a living founder remaining within the region.

Ballotonia

I think part of the point of this was to give mods a break from all the complaints about invasion griefing. If your region was so easily invaded, then it's your region's fault for not being more prepared for an invasion. Keep in mind, though, that the invader only has so much influence they can use. That's why the system works: invaders have to be in the region long enough to accumulate influence to use it, because everyone starts as a minnow in a new region. Invaders can't just kick everyone out, they can only kick so many people out at a time before their influence is totally gone. That's when your chance to take it back comes in. When the invader has little influence left, you charge in and save the day, as it were.

Yes, it 'allows griefing', but it also gives a MUCH better defence against it if you're prepared.

I think part of the point of this was to give mods a break from all the complaints about invasion griefing. If your region was so easily invaded, then it's your region's fault for not being more prepared for an invasion. Keep in mind, though, that the invader only has so much influence they can use. That's why the system works: invaders have to be in the region long enough to accumulate influence to use it, because everyone starts as a minnow in a new region. Invaders can't just kick everyone out, they can only kick so many people out at a time before their influence is totally gone. That's when your chance to take it back comes in. When the invader has little influence left, you charge in and save the day, as it were.

Yes, it 'allows griefing', but it also gives a MUCH better defence against it if you're prepared.

Wrong on two counts:

1- Invaders have long ago started to place puppets into a region long before actually invading it. That means that for an average invasion happening today, the invader lead will likely have been in the region for the whole time the system has been adding "Influence" points. Only a really dumb invader starts off as a Minnow-ranked delegate.

2- All that is needed is to password the region. Passwords do not have to be distributed, so passwording locks in the endorsement lead the delegate has. After that the region can be slowly and effectively gutted as Influence points allow for it. Note this course of action terminates the entire battle over the region, deciding it in favor of the invaders within one whole update. Game over, and only exciting for those who get their enjoyment by torturing their helpless victims.


Ballotonia

Recently, the region I live in was invaded by some loser invasion group called Azean Combine, or something like that, and they've put a password on the region.

Since they don't have to give out the region password any more (and indeed, they just sent out a fake password to irritate us natives), they can just kick out each member one by one and then leave a puppet with one other puppet that has an endorsement in the region forever to keep it from dying, keeping anyone from ever getting back in. As it takes 24 hours to get new delegates in, the person in charge will have plenty of warning and can kick the threats out, or bring in reinforcements at will to secure his position.

The same thing can happen to any small region, and of course we have no recourse now-- with the password rule gone, we can't move in friends to remove them and they can just slowly remove us all.

Sigh. I was wondering how long it would take for this to happen.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Someone always finds a way to take advantage of the system. The situation is basically what we had before: the only real security is an active Founder and successfully destroying regions is quite possible.

Recently, the region I live in was invaded by some loser invasion group called Azean Combine, or something like that, and they've put a password on the region..
First off, you have to realize that this was a special case. They came in to the region (via a legal invasion) only a day or so before the rules changed. Once they got in, they lucked into a rules change that let them keep it. No invasions that start post-influence will have that same advantage.

Second, Ballotonia assumes that all invaders will be able to password the region and shut the door after a single update. Ballo, do you have anything beyond assumption to base that on? Better get your Duckspeakers in a row before deciding that we screwed the game without balancing the possibilities.

Third, to nativity. What is a region beyond a name? I seem to recall at least one Feeder-Government-In-Exile that had a long and fruitful community of players. Eventually something happened (IIRC) and they moved back in on change of government. Having your region taken over doesn't affect your offsite play. It probably barely impacts your on-site play, as the only thing your delegate can do is be mildly irritating on the RMB and change the WFE to his choice of verbiage. If he slowly ejects you, found "Coronado-in-Exile" and laugh at him. Sneak spies into the region. Start a grass-roots campaign. There are plenty of options in a political game. Use your imagination.

Finally, "an incredible scale". What do invaders do? The mean ones go in, cause lots of disruption, applaud themselves for being jerks, and move on to their next victim. The fun ones go in, demonstrate that they have Teh Powah to be just like the mean ones (but aren't), have a few beers, and move on to their next 'victim'. The n00bs create a bunch of multis, take over and eject everyone, and move on to their next victim (or more likely, die). See a common thread here? In case you missed it, it's "move on".

The concept of patient invaders is going to be a new one to most players of the invasion game. Planning ahead for weeks or months will take effort and commitment. Oddly enough, 'defenders' will have exactly the same amount of time to do exactly the same thing. Seems balanced to me, no? Also, once a region has been successfully invaded, the new Delegate and at least some of his endorsers will be committed to a long term stay if they truly want to wipe out the region. In the meantime, that player can't have any more UN nations without breaking the rules ... and we DO still kill multis. Every 'colony region' will tie up a minimum of two UN players. How many invader organizations can survive that attrition if (like many) they want to make daily or weekly raids?

You people haven't really considered all the obvious public factors, much less the OMGs3cr1t things we've added to muddle the picture. Give it a bit more thought, okay?

I believe your theory is torn to pieces by the fact that the regional password was changed AFTER the influence updates.

I believe your theory is torn to pieces by the fact that the regional password was changed AFTER the influence updates.
No, it's not. I can't tell you why it's not, but I do know why they were allowed to set a password, and my explanation (not theory, mind you - I'm not guessing) still holds up. Give it time.

Oi, I'm from the same region.

Frisbeeteria, you'll have to accept my apologies for this, but that wasn't a very good sell right there.

"I can't tell you how it happened, but it's okay, just trust me."

Not to be a prick or anything, but the last time someone told me to 'just trust me' I ended up trying to explain something highly incriminating to the federales.

Perhaps rereading this would be an idea:

First off, you have to realize that this was a special case. They came in to the region (via a legal invasion) only a day or so before the rules changed.This was a fluke of timing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Second, Ballotonia assumes that all invaders will be able to password the region and shut the door after a single update. Ballo, do you have anything beyond assumption to base that on? Better get your Duckspeakers in a row before deciding that we screwed the game without balancing the possibilities.

No, I did NOT say that invaders could march in grab delegacy, and password the place, all within one update. I said their lead could just sit in the region for a while collecting Influence, and THEN his buddies come marching in, they take over the region, and lock the place down within one update. The smaller the region is in comparison to the invasion force, the easier such a thing will be.

Third, to nativity. What is a region beyond a name?

The banner under which a community of people is formed. As people care about their community (which isn't necessarily a decision one makes, one can slowly become part of a community as it forms) so they care about 'their' region.

I seem to recall at least one Feeder-Government-In-Exile that had a long and fruitful community of players. Eventually something happened (IIRC) and they moved back in on change of government. Having your region taken over doesn't affect your offsite play.

Yes it does. The TNP GiE had long-standing members quit the game, or quit the community, and their internal interaction was severely disrupted because their normal modus operandi had vanished and was replaced with a gruelling effort of many months to return their gameplay (which they had thought was supposed to be for fun and enjoyement) back to normal, although even now they still haven't succeeded in this fully.

It probably barely impacts your on-site play, as the only thing your delegate can do is be mildly irritating on the RMB and change the WFE to his choice of verbiage. If he slowly ejects you, found "Coronado-in-Exile" and laugh at him. Sneak spies into the region. Start a grass-roots campaign. There are plenty of options in a political game. Use your imagination.

I've seen quite a few regions which spent many many months being locked down with just one non-UN invader puppet left in it (to keep it alive), with gloating remarks in the WFE to glorify the invaders who did it. if they can do it, they will. There's no 'sneaking in', nor a 'grass roots campaign' possible in that case. Laughing at the invader seems a bit odd, if one cares about ones 'own' region.

Finally, "an incredible scale". What do invaders do? The mean ones go in, cause lots of disruption, applaud themselves for being jerks, and move on to their next victim. The fun ones go in, demonstrate that they have Teh Powah to be just like the mean ones (but aren't), have a few beers, and move on to their next 'victim'. The n00bs create a bunch of multis, take over and eject everyone, and move on to their next victim (or more likely, die). See a common thread here? In case you missed it, it's "move on".

Ah, if only invaders of all kinds were to move on at their own recognizance. I have little problems with those invaders who do that. After all, in those cases it's just a temporary disruption. Sadly, in my experience the mean ones don't move on. Their goal is to KEEP the region. Forever. The thought process is quite simple: if others like the region and want to be in it, the region hence must have some value to have. So those invaders want to have it for themselves.

The concept of patient invaders is going to be a new one to most players of the invasion game.

?!?
Dumping puppets in many regions well in advance of invasions has been standard practice for a long time in the invader community. For years already. Including the type of invader who doesn't 'move on'.

Planning ahead for weeks or months will take effort and commitment. Oddly enough, 'defenders' will have exactly the same amount of time to do exactly the same thing. Seems balanced to me, no?

No, it isn't balanced. Not in the least. Invaders know their target(s) and can just place their UN lead puppet(s) strategically. Defenders would have to place UN nations in *ALL* non-founder regions to end up with the same influence in whatever (for defenders: random) region would turn out to be the target. At one UN nation per player, that's prohibitively costly. The invader/defense battlefield has strategically always been slanted in the favor of the invaders due to them being the ones taking the initiative.

Also, once a region has been successfully invaded, the new Delegate and at least some of his endorsers will be committed to a long term stay if they truly want to wipe out the region. In the meantime, that player can't have any more UN nations without breaking the rules ... and we DO still kill multis. Every 'colony region' will tie up a minimum of two UN players. How many invader organizations can survive that attrition if (like many) they want to make daily or weekly raids?

Maintaining hold of an otherwise empty region takes only one non-UN nation. No more. As the region empties out, the rate of kicking out the 'natives' (for lack of a better word) will increase. How long it'll take... I don't know, depends on the math of the implementation. But it'll be possible, and I've already seen invaders bent on destruction taking months to do their work even when they didn't really need to take it slowly. (seriously: invader takes over, defenders make the call to leave 'm there cause there's no active community in that region, then the invaders sit there silently for literally several months and THEN all of a sudden empty out the region in one night. We file a complaint cause they're now griefing invaders, and the mods take care of business.)

You people haven't really considered all the obvious public factors, much less the OMGs3cr1t things we've added to muddle the picture. Give it a bit more thought, okay?

I first heard of the general concept of the Influence plan from Max, on May 11 2005, and subsequently exchanged some thoughts about it. Now it is implemented and the discussion can be taken into the public realm. How long do I have to think about it before you'll not wave away my opinion away using 'time of thinking about it' as an argument?

Ballotonia

No, I did NOT say that invaders could march in grab delegacy, and password the place, all within one update. I said their lead could just sit in the region for a while collecting Influence, and THEN his buddies come marching in, they take over the region, and lock the place down within one update. The smaller the region is in comparison to the invasion force, the easier such a thing will be.

Perhaps we could arrange a demonstration of this. I'm sure we could find an invader group willing to show their skills.

Recently, the region I live in was invaded by some loser invasion group called Azean Combine, or something like that, and they've put a password on the region.

Since they don't have to give out the region password any more (and indeed, they just sent out a fake password to irritate us natives), they can just kick out each member one by one and then leave a puppet with one other puppet that has an endorsement in the region forever to keep it from dying, keeping anyone from ever getting back in. As it takes 24 hours to get new delegates in, the person in charge will have plenty of warning and can kick the threats out, or bring in reinforcements at will to secure his position.

The same thing can happen to any small region, and of course we have no recourse now-- with the password rule gone, we can't move in friends to remove them and they can just slowly remove us all.

I have heard multiple stories of this and it worries me. I wish you luck in establishing a new region, as it seems as if the game staff wants to side more with Invaders by removing invasion griefing rules. Nationstates admin, I am very disappointed with your new system.

I said their lead could just sit in the region for a while collecting Influence, and THEN his buddies come marching in, they take over the region, and lock the place down within one update. The smaller the region is in comparison to the invasion force, the easier such a thing will be.
So, basically you're saying it is exactly the same as it was before,but it takes longer.....
.....whats the problem then?

There are some basic security measures a region can take to keep from being taken over...the old rules still let players invade, and many did, and regions still had to take the same precautions that they do now. But it seems like the mods have in under control, even if we don't know how...maybe we should all quit whining for a while and see how it plays out.

...maybe we should all quit whining for a while and see how it plays out.
Somebody needs to add a whining event to one of the NationStates Olympics threads in RP. I think we've got some real contenders, even against Generalites and II.

There are some basic security measures a region can take to keep from being taken over...the old rules still let players invade, and many did, and regions still had to take the same precautions that they do now. But it seems like the mods have in under control, even if we don't know how...maybe we should all quit whining for a while and see how it plays out.

Halleluiah.

So, basically you're saying it is exactly the same as it was before,but it takes longer.....
.....whats the problem then?

No, I'm NOT saying that. Griefing used to be illegal.

Ballotonia

But it isn't griefing anymore if the "invaders" have to spend months gaining influence in a region. Then they're "natives".

But it isn't griefing anymore if the "invaders" have to spend months gaining influence in a region. Then they're "natives".

That's just a re-definition of what the term 'native' means. It used to be invaders could not march into a region and wait until they're considered natives. So, yes, it's not 'griefing' only because the definition of the word has been changed ;)

Compare it to lowering unemployment by altering how the unemployment figures are calculated ;)

Ballotonia

Personally, I like the new system - and the same thing happened to me, Just got lucky with the rule changes, though imust say I am finding out that the new Influence thing is not as easy as originally proposed, however, I do support it because it makes you have to reassess the situation, and really plan out what you want to do.


As for teh Coronado Guy - you have to accept the fact that the AC is there for good (or will try), If I recall correctly, you got lucky today, but are you prepaired for tomorrow? You should start thinking about these things if you are ever going to survive.

We've retaken the region, but for how long?

I'm listed as a 'Power' with my nine endorsements and being in the region since its inception. I still can't password protect the region.

Somehow, one unremarkable AC nation with two endorsements had enough influence to enter the region, kick and ban our regional delegate, and password protect it in one fell swoop.

I still feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick with this.