NationStates Jolt Archive


Essay: Invaders and Defenders-My View

Des Rarrl
18-06-2005, 04:01
Invaders and Defenders: The Power Struggle

For quite some time the relationship between invaders and defenders has played a significant part in the global events of the NS world. Empires have crumbled and risen due to the allegiances such wars can create and destroy. So why over the past year or so has the threat from invaders, and therefore the protection required from the defenders, come to decrease so significantly.

It would be unwise to say that the battles between invaders and defenders no longer exist; almost everywhere you look a invader region is building up, attacking a region and then is being beaten off by a defender army, usually by the ADN or one of its many allies. What is obvious however is just how weak the threat from invaders on a whole has become; we haven’t really seen a real threat from a invader since the AA (for those who remember them). Some might argue that the only reason that the AA ever became so powerful is because at that time the ADN was so weak, just starting off, yet at that time the ADN was mere drop in the sea of defenders and the AA was usually able to successfully fight them all off, creating for themselves quite an empire. When the AA finally died the ADN had become one of the most powerful defending alliances in the NS world. Surely the ADN did not destroy all these armies. So where are the Invaders today?

Some might argue that the PRP is/was a powerful invader group, but who is to say that the PRP are invaders at all. It is without a doubt that their hold over the Pacific’s at times has been more then questionable and their methods of doing so, quite controversial. But their military strength, although quite significant, rarely set foot outside of the Pacific’s. Even in ‘Franco’s reign’ we didn’t see any major retaliation against the ADN or for that matter against the defending community at all. This of course is probably because of the amount of troops required to hold the Pacific’s was so great that any type of military reprisal would be unwise to attempt, yet even when things died down their really was no type of attack or lash out against anyone. A dictatorship perhaps, but a invader army? Not so much.

There are many reasons invaders have not been able to achieve the power that defenders have achieved over the past years. Simply invaders are to proud to work together, most invaders start their invader group because they are promised power. They all seem to believe that their little group, out of all the little groups, will be the one to rise up, crush the defenders and rule the world. Invaders will never be able to work together effectively because in general, invaders are invaders because they want power and those who want power are usually unwilling to share it. This is probably the main reason defenders have achieved so much over the years, because they are not afraid to work together, if invaders were able to work together in a similar way and attacked defenders directly, together, we would see a war like the NS world has ever seen, and one of the sides would emerge with power and influence not ever seen before in the NS world. Yet what is power?

In the NS world power isn’t having your own region, with a hundred different trading partners, anyone can create their own region and role-play with their neighbours. Power in NS is about controlling and/or protecting a powerful region, and having significant influence (having the world fear or love you). Yet this is almost impossible because a) grieving is illegal and b) any region with founder status can’t truly be invaded and controlled, because when it comes down to it the founder will always have that ultimate control over the region. Today, if you wanted to gain any form of ‘significant’ power you would need to take control of either one the Pacific’s or another large founder-less region. To control one of the Pacific’s is to have access to 25% of the incoming nations and a huge number of older nations to convert to your cause, but on top of the practical advantages of controlling such a region its also a powerful tittle to ones name. Yet again to do this one would need significant numbers, something one cannot achieve without working with others with similar views and goals.

Due to the law against grieving a invader region could never really strike out against a enemy and inflict true fear and gain true power, and a defender will never have a true threat to fight against. I for one understand and support the law against grieving completely, invading/defending is not the only aspect of the game and grieving could destroy the political side of the game. Many nations spend huge amounts of energy to build up and run a region and grieving can be absolutely devastating to someone who had spent so much energy trying to create such a region. However having said this, if grieving was legal it would give huge powers to both sides and create a major threat for defenders to face, bringing forth the idea that theoretically if grieving was legal it would force all regions to create some form of military or protection, and allegiances would certainly be more significant, the impact this would have on the game is unbelievable, and in such a environment world dominance would be possible, by both sides, the invaders to rule it or the defenders to unite and protect it.

So it seems that invaders in general are in fact not dead, merely broken. Although all past attempts to unite invaders have failed miserably, when it comes down to it it’s the only way that invaders will ever be able to form any kind of significant threat against the defenders or gain any kind of power worth having, nothing can be gained by invading regions with 30 nations in it and no founder and these are the sought of regions that defenders are watching. Regardless of the impact grieving will have on this never-ending power struggle, the amount of good things that will come from it is significantly outbalanced by the amount of bad things that could come from removing such a law and one would have to think seriously of the consequences of doing so.

I leave this now for you to think about.

-Locke
Magnetic Island
18-06-2005, 04:26
How right you are. I am a defender and have been most of my time playing. I have also been an invader. If griefing a region were legal, it would make the game more of a challenge and encourage more players.
Crimson Sith
18-06-2005, 17:46
An excellent read, to be sure. I myself feel that the rules constricting greifing/invading, as well as the total control founders are given over their region, are rather "carebearish". If these restrictions were lifted, it would surely make the game proper a much more exciting and dynamic experience. Unfortunatly, I don't think there's any kind of chance that [violet] and the Mods will decide on changing the current order of things. This is the way NS is, and its most probably not going to change. Its a fact which we must, if only grudgingly, accept. I suppose this is the main reason why I funnel my energies into roleplay rather than NS politicking, invading/defending.
Magnetic Island
19-06-2005, 09:25
It would be unfair on the regions that nations have put a lot of effort into. But that's why there is the thing called "founder" and "regional control."

Des Rarrl, doy ou have a main nation?
Des Rarrl
20-06-2005, 06:58
It would be unfair on the regions that nations have put a lot of effort into. But that's why there is the thing called "founder" and "regional control."

Des Rarrl, doy ou have a main nation?

I did, Des Rarrl is my main region now. You can contact me futher however either by email or msn at locke_desrarrl@hotmail.com or on Aim (I use this rarely) as desrarrl or of course you can telegram me.
The military nation
20-06-2005, 19:01
In the end defenders are indestructable. They have delegate controls off which means good bye invasion plan...
Arnarchotopia
20-06-2005, 23:12
Interesting article. When I get time i'll blog a decent response to it. Something I would say that has radically changed the dynamics in the last year between both sides is the update cycle. Before it was fixed and you could chase it through regions. Now once your UN nations gets an update that's it for that cycle and the update cycle itself is random making it harder to to precise invasions (it's caused some headache for us defenders too!)...
Des Rarrl
21-06-2005, 07:22
Interesting article. When I get time i'll blog a decent response to it. Something I would say that has radically changed the dynamics in the last year between both sides is the update cycle. Before it was fixed and you could chase it through regions. Now once your UN nations gets an update that's it for that cycle and the update cycle itself is random making it harder to to precise invasions (it's caused some headache for us defenders too!)...

I never truly understood the reasoning for bringing in a rule like that. To me it didn't actually achieve anything apart from putting more unnecessary restrictions on an already highly regulated part of the game. It seems to me that, in many cases, the mods are doing everything in their power to hold back the defenders and invaders from reaching their full potential. Whilst many rules have a very good reason for being in place, quite a few do not and I just don't understand why.
Magnetic Island
21-06-2005, 13:05
Maybe you should start a poll on making griefing legal or illegal.
Arnarchotopia
21-06-2005, 13:32
I never truly understood the reasoning for bringing in a rule like that. To me it didn't actually achieve anything apart from putting more unnecessary restrictions on an already highly regulated part of the game. It seems to me that, in many cases, the mods are doing everything in their power to hold back the defenders and invaders from reaching their full potential. Whilst many rules have a very good reason for being in place, quite a few do not and I just don't understand why.

You know I think many on both sides of the fence would agree with that. It feels like it was done to draw the game back into a more political type of play. I think one of the down sides to this is the rise of [what I call] politicians in the game. These type of players are often power hungry and want to just use others to increase their power base. When the defender/invader dynamic was dominant "diplomacy" (which imo is sometimes just a polite way of saying lets deal with the situation in a spineless and cowardly manner) was kept in check. Now with the dwindling of that dynamic the game has become alot of talk and propaganda (hell even the invaders issue press releases these days!)...
Arnarchotopia
21-06-2005, 13:33
I should say that I don't think griefing should be allowed but would thoroughly back a move to end random updates and one update per UN nation (I'd drop the second to have the former though!). This would give us all a fighting chance of having some fun again!

Oh yeah, here is my blog (haven't had time to write about your piece but will!): http://atopianews.blogspot.com/
Crazy girl
21-06-2005, 13:43
Was somethingabout making the game more realistic.
The Noble Men
21-06-2005, 20:34
Too true.

I have a puppet in a defender region, and sometimes I wonder why we do this. Isn't it easier to just switch off delegate control?
Baribeau
22-06-2005, 01:41
I believe that if an army has lost interest in defending/invading, they should focus on WarZones. They fact is that WarZones were created so that you can grief a region, and that you could batttle on for days and weeks without upsetting any "natives".

Unfortunately, Invaders seem to take more pride in raiding actual regions, and often the natives don't even know what an invasion is.

The question, apparently, boils down to wether or not griefing should or should not be allowed. Allowing it would upset those players who don't want to take part in inter-regional politics, and simply want a place to keep their nation, and maybe chat a little bit. Removing griefing, on the other hand, would please those who enjoy making others suffer; people who don't understand the effort others put into their region and it's seemingly distinct characteristics.

So, should griefing be allowed, just to please the minority who think they rule NationStates? Of course not.

My advice to invaders who are looking for more of a thrill is to suck it up and steal a Warzone.

~Baribeau
Des Rarrl
23-06-2005, 07:56
War zones are unfortunately not much of an alternate, they have zero strategic value whatsoever and nobody wants to defend or attack a no-mans land, war zones are only really good for training exercises. I agree that bringing in grieving would be a stupid and unfair think to do at this moment in time. However having said this, you surely must realise that the way things are currently isn’t exactly working ,we have reached a stalemate, in this never ending power struggle that only certain things can end, the way the game is played by both sides and the way it can be played needs to be adjusted if one side is to gain the upper hand.

These people who you described as the ones that "think they rule the world", in a way do, not directly perhaps but we have seen empires rise and fall due to the actions of these delusional fools, out of everyone who plays this game, they are the ones who seem to have the biggest impact on the world, to be the most active and seem to have the most influence on the world around us, is that not power? Is that not control? .Every world needs good guys and bad guys Baribeau, Every world needs some kind of conflict or complication, we can't all be civilians, if we are not all given longer leashes soon, this game is going to quickly loose its spark.

-Locke
Qaaolchoura
24-06-2005, 00:38
First off, I agree that the rules are a fair bit heavier than I'd like.
As Max has, however stated, this is a dictatorship, not a democracy (in which a vote for briefing would lose anywhen).

Secondly, I agree completely that the defenders tend to take the fun out of things by simply overpowering the invaders. I could speak of recalling the days when things were otherwise, but I can't. I've had some arguments with Cg about this, and it's something that we'll never agree on.

Still, I do not favor repealing the briefing rules. Ever since the Jolt move, I've been more or less avoiding NationStates, and have let even my main nation die twice. The majority of my regions, (well the ones that I care about), have been invaded at least once in my absence. There have been several briefing attempts on one of them.

But I can always come back, and simply change the factbook (the invaders never stay), or even leave it, as I do sometimes (assuming that they did not remove my old fact book, merely added to it). It would be somewhat symbiotic if these regions didn't tend not to have delegates (with the exception of ZF, which after being invaded twice, successfully repealed the third on their own).

If they could grief these regions, there would nothing I could do to regain them, which, considering that I've been an apathetic a founder, I may well deserve. I would be annoyed, and the natives wouldn't care. It would however still be unfair.

Somebody raised the point of regional founders. Yes, but I'm not gonna be here forever, in fact, I know exactly when I plan to leave. I can give most of my puppets to other players whom I trust (they're almost all defenders, since I've lost contact with the invaders and other gameplayers I know, but meh).

Losing most of those puppets won't be a big deal, when I finally leave, since I will have no intent of using them again. However, I still have this nation as founder of ZF. There are people on NS who I would trust with puppets, and people in my region who I would trust with foundership. I would not, however, trust anybody with my main nation.

I have a number of old posts on the forum that can be edited by anybody with this account, as well as a reputation among old-timers. I think that I may be able to give my forum account a separate password, but that does nothing for the posting ability of my game account. And frankly, I don't feel comfortable giving my main nation to anybody, ever.

So basically, I have at least one nation that I won't give up, and a couple up puppets that I'd feel highly uncomfortable doing so.

Somebody once proposed the idea of regional successors. Sal decided at that time not to implement it. If he were to reconsider, I might say that you idea has some merit. Until that time, I must disagree.

(Yes that was long winded, but hey, I always tend towards the longwinded).

Peace, Truth, Liberty, and Justice,
Luke