NationStates Jolt Archive

There's an invisible but very real line drawn between the nations who favour the International Incidents forum and the nations who favour the NationStates forum. The stereotypes I most commonly observe are that NSers are elitist snobs and IIers are warmongering wanker trash. I belong to the elitist snob group, and make no apologies for it. I'd rather read a good story than calculate numbers of how much damage 10,000 cruise missiles will do to a battle fleet in a single strike.

I encountered a statement that stuck in my mind, one that I think helps me understand the "wanker" mindset a little better.

well, back when I had 200 nuclear missiles, folks tended not to notice As I see it, this is the crux of the problem. "Getting noticed" is not the same as "good role-play." Granted, with over a hundred thousand nations being run by tens of thousands of people, there's a lot of noise and it takes some effort to "get noticed" so people will play with you. A good friend of mine who also happens to be a drop-dead fantastic writer doesn't get a lot of exposure, and there's really no good reason for it.

And yet, writing about your X-million man army and how you land them all at once in your super ultra-armoured fighter transport isn't going to get you the attention you want. It makes you appear desperate and willing to cheat to establish a reputation, and frankly, you have no control over the reputation this cultivates. For those of us focused on cooperative role-play, you earn a reputation of needing to "win" at all costs.

At risk of repeating myself, there is no way to win. It's not that kind of game. Wargaming can be fun, but I don't enjoy it if the focus is all about "my military penis is bigger than yours."

Write some quality role-play and let the attention/praise come on its own. I now, it takes patience, and it helps if you can role-play with the right groups. But it earns you a lot less abuse than your "look at my wank!" attitude.

There's an invisible but very real line drawn between the nations who favour the International Incidents forum and the nations who favour the NationStates forum. The stereotypes I most commonly observe are that NSers are elitist snobs and IIers are warmongering wanker trash. I belong to the elitist snob group, and make no apologies for it. I'd rather read a good story than calculate numbers of how much damage 10,000 cruise missiles will do to a battle fleet in a single strike.

Yes, just so long as you realize NSers can be every bit as wankish, and IIers can be as interested in characters.

As I see it, this is the crux of the problem. "Getting noticed" is not the same as "good role-play."

Agreed.

It's part of the ad populum logical fallacy - popularity does not equal justice or validity.


And yet, writing about your X-million man army and how you land them all at once in your super ultra-armoured fighter transport isn't going to get you the attention you want.

Okay, godmoding isn't good. But then show me a nation that doesn't have any military vehicles they've mentioned (there are few), or even a multi-million man army (there are fewer). NS or II, military roleplay IS roleplay.

It makes you appear desperate and willing to cheat to establish a reputation, and frankly, you have no control over the reputation this cultivates.

Which part, sending a wanked up army to do battle, or just the army and battle part?

For those of us focused on cooperative role-play, you earn a reputation of needing to "win" at all costs.

Yeah but, some people display that without making it military in nature, or godmoddy. I think most people want to "win," even roleplayed imaginary leaders and governments. Even in a game where there's no mechanism that goes, "You've WON!"

At risk of repeating myself, there is no way to win.

Depends on how you define winning.

It's not that kind of game. Wargaming can be fun, but I don't enjoy it if the focus is all about "my military penis is bigger than yours."

Agreed, that shouldn't be the focus.

Write some quality role-play and let the attention/praise come on its own.

Or not, since as Allanea shows wank and annoyance gets him tons of attention. It's interesting and dramatic...

While I don't claim to speak for everyone, I play almost totally on International Incidents and I believe that a good story is the most important thing about RP. While I occasionally use numbers for military, they are always estimates at best and used sparingly. I may not be good, but I try.

Unfortunately, my RPs never seem to be noticed. They are read by around ten people and then sink to the bottom of the forum, to lie forever in the primordial ooze. Any II topic which not spend paragraph after paragraph detailing how many sandwiches each soldier packed, unless it is by a "famous" player or is a random comedy RP, is doomed to drift forever on the tides of the forum without getting read, let alone replied to.

So why not get a reputation? Because the only thing which will get a player well known now is ridiculous amounts of godmoding, or ridiculous amounts of genocide, which gets tedious after the fiftieth thread. Take Hataria for instance (I hear he has improved, but I'll use him as an example anyway). Hataria now has a reputation on NS roughly the size of the Pacific Ocean. The reason for this: godmoding. If Hataria had not been a godmoding nuke-thrower back when he first joined, no-one would know he even existed. I am often tempted to do this myself, but it goes against everything I believe about RP.

My conclusion: although everyone says they hate it, everyone loves military statistics and "numberwanking". Writing a good story may be an art, but the forums, and especially the II forum, are RP forums rather than art galleries.

One final note. Yes, I have tried the NS forum. I have made a total of three posts, each of which went unnoticed. To be honest, the NS forum scares me. In general, the RPing skill is one that I know I will never be able to match, so I steer clear so as not to make an idiot of myself.

Ah well, back to the numbercrunching.

I stick mostly to the NS forum, and sometimes go to the UN forum and occasionally venture to the gameplay forum. I do not consider myself an elitist snob. My time is limited, and if I had more time I might come to the international forum more often. Thats just me though.

I never really got the "line" or the labelling of people as "NSers" or "IIers." I RP on both forums. If there's nothing that looks interesting on one, I'll go to the other.

*Shrug* For those of who MUST WIN; invade me, I won't stop you, I probably won't even reply to you!;) Many times I am tempted to go onto the forum and post: "I have my dick in one hand and a gun in the other, bring it on!" just to see who will bite (hopefully not bight my dick though). :p :mp5: :D :sniper:

"Getting noticed" is not the same as "good role-play." Granted, with over a hundred thousand nations being run by tens of thousands of people, there's a lot of noise and it takes some effort to "get noticed" so people will play with you. A good friend of mine who also happens to be a drop-dead fantastic writer doesn't get a lot of exposure, and there's really no good reason for it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. While I'm not an active role-player, I'd like to think that if I were to begin doing so, that my writing alone would be the reason people would role-play with me. Simple as that. Yeah, y'know what? I have a kick butt military that could probably wipe out "half of the known world," but who cares? It takes a real nation to negotiate peace, and more importantly, to keep it.

At risk of repeating myself, there is no way to win. It's not that kind of game.

NationStates isn't about winning; anybody who says different isn't playing the same game.

Write some quality role-play and let the attention/praise come on its own.

I think this is how I view NationStates in its entirety, to be honest. I think by playing the game the way you want to and being smart about it, people notice you and praise you for your actions in-game and in role-play.

Unfortunately, my RPs never seem to be noticed. They are read by around ten people and then sink to the bottom of the forum, to lie forever in the primordial ooze. Any II topic which not spend paragraph after paragraph detailing how many sandwiches each soldier packed, unless it is by a "famous" player or is a random comedy RP, is doomed to drift forever on the tides of the forum without getting read, let alone replied to.And? You have a story to write, an event to go through, go through it, it doesn't matter if someone else replies to it or not. Unfortunately, many people are busy with their own storylines, with their own circle of fellow players. You cannot expect everyone to jump up 'THIS IS GREAT!' even if it is great (Which happens more often than not). It just isn't possible, and indeed, the chance of someone replying or not (ICly, of course) is pretty much random, and not really tied to quality, quantity, or whatever. In other words, you need patience. And even though no one might notice your first three threads... When you go and interact somewhere else, you will have points of reference, and there are more than a few people who actually read up on the threads of people they interact with. Oh, and you will have a neat 'lil writing experience.

My conclusion: although everyone says they hate it, everyone loves military statistics and "numberwanking". Writing a good story may be an art, but the forums, and especially the II forum, are RP forums rather than art galleries.No. Everyone loves ridiculing military statistcs and numberwank. Well, at least on IRC. And I sincerely doubt that anyone strives for being laughed at.

One final note. Yes, I have tried the NS forum. I have made a total of three posts, each of which went unnoticed. To be honest, the NS forum scares me. In general, the RPing skill is one that I know I will never be able to match, so I steer clear so as not to make an idiot of myself.1. See above. 2. Everyone can improve. And over the course of, say, one or two years, a lot can happen.

Oh, one last thing: it helps greatly to be on IRC (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=278619) to get to know other players, to organise and to, amusingly enough, raise some interest in your threads. To receive critizism without it being in the semi- insulting ways it usually has in the forums (Yes, I'm guilty of this). Well, ok, it is still insulting, but it is easier to calm down, anyway. And it is FAR preferable to 'Get noticed' on irc than to 'Get noticed' by way of a numbercrunching disaster.

Well you know why most people flock to II? Because in NS the chance of getting noticed are even smaller. In II when you make a thread about genocide, write it up in a fancy way the attention is receives is higher than the same thing in NS.

By the way, I'm also trying to get a story of mine noticed. It's pretty disturbing to see how a person who has gained respect by other plays gets a thread going in one day while I have one running for a week with only two replies (of myself) and a mere 39 views. It is really that bad or is everyone too self centered to read something from a new player? You can read it in my sig - Diamond Valley.

Guffingford:
From what I've noticed, most people tend to ignore story-based RPs as soon as it becomes obvious...
I tend to avoid them because I think that the person writing it is writing a story, and not starting an RP.

Points to Guffingford's comment in the story

There's not a real possiblity to join RP-wise

Plus just about all my nations are future-tech anyway, so that doesn't help...

In II when you make a thread about genocide, write it up in a fancy way the attention is receives is higher than the same thing in NS.Well, to be fair, NPC genocide in NS (The entirety of it, not only a single forum) is somewhat, uh... Common? And not really interesting. I'm sorry, but 'I kill $Amount of $Minority despite there being so many that I cannot really do this without having a civil war and economic collapse, and besides, they were ALL to stupid to flee because there were NO SIGNS of social problems whatsoever which could have warned them' isn't going to be in any way, uh... Relevant, 'cept as a mildly amusing cry for attention or a sad case of confusing mildly disturbing RL believes with NS roleplay.

IIers numberwank? I've always considered myself a Character RPer, mixed in with smome military action and political intrigue. Click on "A Most Civil War" in my signature, and tell me if you see any numberwanking. You won't because I wanted to concentrate of the characters in the war and conspiracies behind it.

Even, "Unforseen Consequences," a military RP, is less numberwanking than extrapolating what happens in the fog of war.

Don't stereotype players because of what forums they play in. If you asked me, II is more for modern and post-modern tech, while NS is generally for fantasy and future tech.

I've seen many discussions regarding what is often termed "god-modding", "power-gaming" or "plot-stealing" in roleplays. The basic problem, of course, is that in play-by-post roleplaying, there are no limits. (At least within the boundaries of the code of conduct of the forum - once personal attacks commence, the moderators step in). I haven't played in this kind of roleplays before, but I see little difference: The same applies whether you play a fantasy hero, or a country. The following is something I wrote at that time; it concerns fantasy roleplays but as I said there is hardly any difference in this respect.

Reinforcing the old proverb that only fools quote themselves...

Combat is an essential element of any plot. People make swords and battle spells for a reason, and so in any fantasy story you'll have people banging each other on the head and frying each other. In a computer RPG, combat is necessary to have *some* sort of constant risk for your characters, or you couldn't lose and it'd be boring. You're fighting a random number generator, with some graphics to give your opponents a visual appearance. All in all, it doesn't become boring that quick if it's made well.

In a play-by-post 'story' roleplay, you're essentially playing against yourself. That means you decide what your enemies do, what you do, what wounds your enemies get, what wounds you get (unless you're directly fighting another player, but that's another topic). Ever tried battling yourself with a pair of wooden swords?

A fool is one who would use this lack of limits to make himself invulnerable, to give himself the power of gods and millions of soldiers at his command. He has not learned to place limits on himself and is therefore lost when given that much power (think Phaeton if you like Greek mythology).

If, while fencing with those two swords, you are what might be called "semi-skilled", one step above the godmodding fool, you will occasionally bang yourself on the head and stab yourself in the arm for realism. But watching you (that's what the reader does; and what value has a good roleplay apart from to those that read it?) will get boring quick once it has lost the novelty.

That means that - if you're slightly more than "semi-skilled" (say "three-quarter skilled" ) - you try to spend as little time/text as possible on combat. Quickly describe the attack, give a rough number (the rougher, the better) of the forces involved, zoom in on a single character, include some dialogue/inner monologue, kill a few people, and move on. If the battle is really big, just make a break, like this:

* * *

and then describe the aftermath of the assault, or even jump ahead and forget about the battle entirely.

Of course, if you're a true master at roleplaying (and if you know you are, that means you aren't), you might be able to make a battle interesting. Even so, keep it in check. The most interesting parts in a story are those unimportant little trivialities that happen *between* battles. Strange as that may sound.


People can and will identify with individual persons, not with numbers, armies and countries. The true excellence of a story shows in small details that take pages to narrate, not huge bomb explosions that are over in one line -

"LOL OMG I TRHOW TEH NUKE & YUO ALL DIE!!!111"

Edit: Took so long to post that it is all explained in earlier posts. Yes, I'm a "Character Roleplayer"; that means I prefer individual persons over groups and numbers and armies. They are easier to keep track of, and they allow for far better characterization.

Well, to be fair, NPC genocide in NS (The entirety of it, not only a single forum) is somewhat, uh... Common? And not really interesting. I'm sorry, but 'I kill $Amount of $Minority despite there being so many that I cannot really do this without having a civil war and economic collapse, and besides, they were ALL to stupid to flee because there were NO SIGNS of social problems whatsoever which could have warned them' isn't going to be in any way, uh... Relevant, 'cept as a mildly amusing cry for attention or a sad case of confusing mildly disturbing RL believes with NS roleplay. Agreed, NPC genocide isn't nearly as interesting for players as killing people in another nation. Still, in II it will get more attention than the same story in NS. Maybe it was a bad example. I also like to say, NS is reputed to be a forum of story writing and such. While you say they're mostly future and II is too messed for story writing where else can you drop stories about your nation? I said there's not much room for RP but not even OOC comments, input or what else? It's a shame much talent has passed away unnoticed by the 'respected' plays. Such people will never earn the slightest bit of respect from me if they just be conservative, self-centered players not open for new concepts or just stories.

By the way, most numberwanking is done in OOC threads or bad IC plays. In virtually all of Guffs serious RP's (ego search for my civil war) you will find zero numberwanking.

It's a shame much talent has passed away unnoticed by the 'respected' plays.Or got mobbed out of Nationstates by was of 'YUO CANNOT HEV THAT UNTIL YOU REACH $Arbitrary_Population OR $Arbitrary_Economy. Saw it happen more than just one time. And this is, IMHO, worse.

I would like to thank Treznor for his interesting interpretation of a statement I made on mIRC. The interesting part is that I was neither asked to clarify that statement (something I would have done in order to give this topic more depth) nor ask why I thought that when I only had 200 ICBMs (the maximum amount my nation ever built and no longer exist) I believed that it was a good thing that no body noticed.

The quote is:

Originally Posted by Anonymous
well, back when I had 200 nuclear missiles, folks tended not to notice

It fails to note that it came from an IRC chat, meaning that there is no corroborating post. Therefore, no explanation can be given other than the opinion presented to us. We neither know if the speaker meant they could fire all of those missiles at once, a few at a time, or what yield. While that might not be the point, the last part makes all the difference.

For someone who has roleplayed against other nations excessive number militaries (I once went up against someone with 100,000+ nuclear missiles and could fire them at the same time), attention would seem like a rather negative thing at times. I must note that Treznor became highly perturbed when I mentioned I had a weapon delivery system that used small asteroids (smaller than one mile in diameter, although generally smaller ones would be used) to effectively 'shell' an enemy nation without mass construction of ordinance. I agreed to lay off using it in the Sol System, after being duly informed that any attempt to use it on any scale would result in a general nuking by any number of nations (even if the effects on the NS Earth as a whole were minimal). The issue eventually boiled down to my incessant babbling (I do mean that, I need to lay off the excessive chit-chat) about military strength and space weapons. I also agreed to lay off the excessive military numbers talk.

Much to my surprise this morning, I ran across this post this morning (even though I figured that all of the issues that had arisen that night had been taken care of). While I do applaud Treznor's analysis and use of 'Anonymous' quotation in order to avoid trouble, I must post this rebuttal in order to put a name and position to the misinterpreted quote.

Or got mobbed out of Nationstates by was of 'YUO CANNOT HEV THAT UNTIL YOU REACH $Arbitrary_Population OR $Arbitrary_Economy. Saw it happen more than just one time. And this is, IMHO, worse. Did that really happen? Wow, and I thought II was an unfriendly place for new players.

Did that really happen? Wow, and I thought II was an unfriendly place for new players.You missunderstood. I saw it happen in II, just as I saw it happen in NS (More often in II, but I blame the generally higher posting frequency in II for that), and it is a general problem. The most recent (But, unfortunately, most definitely not the only) example being here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387931).

People can and will identify with individual persons, not with numbers, armies and countries.

I guess patriotism or nationalism doesn't happen? If people didn't identify with the actions of whole armies and countries, no one would watch the History Channel. Or join a military to fight for your country.

The true excellence of a story shows in small details that take pages to narrate

Sounds like the detailed lists of army composition and tactics and equipment etc, no? Or did you mean more important details like what some character ate for breakfast and how did that effect their psychology? :rolleyes:

NationStates isn't about winning; anybody who says different isn't playing the same game.


Then all those invaders and defenders trying to defeat an enemy aren't playing the same game?

I think nationstates is about whatever the player thinks its about. I can't tell you why you play, nor you me.

For someone who has roleplayed against other nations excessive number militaries (I once went up against someone with 100,000+ nuclear missiles and could fire them at the same time), attention would seem like a rather negative thing at times. I must note that Treznor became highly perturbed when I mentioned I had a weapon delivery system that used small asteroids (smaller than one mile in diameter, although generally smaller ones would be used) to effectively 'shell' an enemy nation without mass construction of ordinance. I agreed to lay off using it in the Sol System, after being duly informed that any attempt to use it on any scale would result in a general nuking by any number of nations (even if the effects on the NS Earth as a whole were minimal). The issue eventually boiled down to my incessant babbling (I do mean that, I need to lay off the excessive chit-chat) about military strength and space weapons. I also agreed to lay off the excessive military numbers talk.I appreciate your candor and willingness to come forward to debate it. But ultimately, my observation stands. The comment was taken out of context and does not necessarily pertain strictly to you, but I feel that it does represent a lot of attitudes in role-play. If you aren't getting attention from other players/nations, then you aren't worth anything. So instead of putting in hard work and being patient, nations will resort to massive tech and numbers in order to compete with the big boys.

I object to that attitude. I object to the idea that having more troops, n00kz, or whatever will make you a more important or powerful nation. Yes, wargaming is a different animal and numbers do come into play to a degree. It's the focus that bugs me, and that focus is what I speak to.

A lot of the people I role-play with wank, some of whom wank on a level that puts IIers to shame. I have a lot of wank in my nation as well. But we don't focus on that wank. My nation isn't supercool because we have cold fusion tech or FTL travel or whatever. My nation is supercool (or not) because of how I handle the leaders, the people and the situations that come up. The wank is background, not the focus of the story. If someone hasn't heard of me before, that's fine. I am not all things to all people. But some people can't abide not being well-known and respected. And so they go out of their way to be obnoxious and powerful so as to "force" others to respect them.

I have many complaints about the kind of role-play I see on the channel, and I have my reasons for them. Be original, cooperate, and don't depend on numbers/tech to give your role-play meaning. Anybody can come up with big numbers; not everyone can write a post worth reading. That's the difference.

You missunderstood. I saw it happen in II, just as I saw it happen in NS (More often in II, but I blame the generally higher posting frequency in II for that), and it is a general problem. The most recent (But, unfortunately, most definitely not the only) example being here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387931). Ah I see your point. It's a damn shame how that thread went. Sticking to 'no godmodding or numberwanking' as a rule is lauded by everyone but the no nuke rule for new nations or when your economy is bad you cannot purchase/develop new weapons seems very unlogical to me. You decide where you spend your money and some people don't understand. When my real nation Holy Panooly was young I was somewhat future tech and made some kind of reactor. The first reaction was that my economy sucked and I couldn't do it. A few days later I saw another guy who announced he was going to build nuclear reactors. Same story, he was too young and his economy couldn't sustain such a project.