NationStates Jolt Archive

Here are some of my thoughts on region crashing in NationStates. Why do I write this? Because I do believe that every honourable region crasher is doing the right thing. Because I think I have enough experience in this field for my opinion to be valuable, and because I think that existing region crashing organizations - and traditions - do not fully meet their goals and the way of a true warrior.

Before I start my rambling, remember one thing. If you see this stupid, consider it all a RP. Yes, I do enjoy role playing. But if these thoughts reasonable for you, take a deeper look, and think a bit. It won’t hurt.

On the purpose of raiding:

Many people who haven’t ever raided do not understand why the hell we do it. Some clueless people claim that we do it because we are little cowards and bullies. Others answer - just for the hell of it. Now, I personally raid simply because I like it. I do really enjoy it. I do enjoy the battles that go on in NS. The time when one waits in the region wonder if all people will gather unnoticed, or will someone leak the mission? I enjoy the time after endorsing our point man, when one sits and waits thrilled, not knowing if the delegate will wake up and notice the strange increase in one nations endorsements or not. Even more I enjoy the endorsements race, when another crasher group pours in and starts endorsing one of themselves in order to defeat us, kick us out. I find these moments my best experience in NationStates. Of course, it is a beautiful thing to finally see your flag on the top of the region, but if the battle was massive and good, the outcome doesn’t really matter. Plus, I do enjoy all the role play connected with this: generals and privates, good guys and bad guys, spies and politics. The best thing about all this is that no one might actually get hurt. That’s right, no one gets hurt. Well, no one except maybe the ego of some people. And this ego would probably be hurt as much by a role play war.

Now you will say, “Now I see the light, it is fun as hell, but think of the poor natives! What is good for them out of all this?” Well, I might ask in return, “How does it hurt them?” True, it might be annoying to wake up in The Rejected Realms. True, regional recruiting might be stopped for a day or two. Is that so bad? No. It’s a mere annoyance. Heh, if there was any real damage done, like natives loosing their nations as loot for raiders, I would be the first one to speak up to ban region crashing. But - unlike in real life wars - no one gets killed or hurt anyhow. No one even gets bruises. And in return for that small annoyance natives get what I call a “forced evolution”. After invasions some regions return to normal life. Some, instead of getting back to old ways, decide to improve themselves so that invasions can not happen again. Invasion forces a sleepy and happy-with-itself region to move forward - create a regional guard, create more stable government, pay attention to regional security. Overall, it encourages them to enhance their region, because the bigger it is, the less possibility for it to get invaded. It takes both fire and pressure to turn carbon into diamond. Region crashers are this fire and pressure.

Invasion also makes an audit of the region. Is it strong? Can the current government solve the crisis, or is there a need for a new one? Is the region actually free? Has the current delegate support of the people? If he has, he will get re-elected. If not - he won’t. Governments of regions stopped being accountable for people a long time ago. How can they be accountable? Admit it, besides maybe recruiting - and organizing role play - there is nothing for a government to do. They just sit trough their term, happy with another role play term. It is nice to be called a senator, and not have to work for that. There are no social issues here, and a government can not show that it is making life of the people any better. Invasion is what forces it to be accountable. If government is doing its job, a region cannot get invaded, or invasion only benefits it.

Also, a passive benefit of raiding that is more like a side effect, and happen no matter you want it or not - region crashing makes this game more realistic. This is a political simulation, right? And in real life, international politics isn’t a fluffy chat room. Crisis happens, wars erupt and sometimes you can do nothing about it. Sure, living somewhere in Western Europe, world might look a nice place and it might seem that all trouble and wars are far, far away. Well, actually they are far away - in Africa which is constantly at war, as well as half of Arabian world, South America, Far East…. And, once in a generation our Old Continent gets shaken up really bad, worse, then anywhere else in the world. War always was, and always will be a part of human’s nature.

Finally, there is last purpose of region crashing. There are almost 15 000 regions out there. Out of them only 2400 have delegates. Heh, half of the region in NS have less then 5 nations in them, and last regional happening or message on the Civil HQ dates back to it’s founding some 300 days ago. They are simply failed experiments forgotten by founders and serving as puppet parking lots, or as mass graveyards. If a region like that gets stuck by an invasion, it either might come back to life because of the attention it receives, or it might die out sooner and give space for more willing founder. There is no fun in attacking such regions, but this is a duty that all region crashers in NationStates should take up.

A perfect raider organization should try to give as much fun fighting experience as possible. Sadly, sometimes people forget that it is only a game, and take up fighting too personally. And then flame and slander, wars erupt that leave no one happy, a foul taste in everyone’s mouth. Also, a region crasher organization should make as much “audits” as possible, and after making one quickly move on another one. Every day when you are not taking over is a wasted day. Sadly, sometimes people get too greedy for power ad control, and decide to make a region their colony. While it is ok to act that way for an army of a big imperial region, that attacks only once in a while, a raider organization should never be imperialistic. It simply distracts it from its main goals. A perfect organization should continue at “auditing”, “forcing evolution” and making this game realistic for everyone instead of trying to make colonies. Also, a perfect region crasher group should not act like vultures, and should not go for an easy win after a region was just left by another group. This only prevents the region from opportunity to use the gifts of invasion and become diamond. Also, as I outlined already, a perfect raider organization should never forget its duty and try to liven dead regions, or at worst, “clean up” NationStates from time to time.

On the warriors:

Why have all region crashing groups sprung up? It happened because humans are warriors in nature. Every year, humankind's history is marked with a war on one or another spot of the planet. I read somewhere that there was a period of 2 years in human’s history, when it was a complete peace. Well, I would easily believe that war that was going then was simply forgotten or “missed” by historians. Defender and Invader organizations came to life because people wanted to fight in this game. The only difference between them was role play theme. One side decided to play the good guys, while the other picked up role of bad guys. It would be very nice, if it left that way, but sadly, some people forgot that this isn’t real, that this is only a game, and everything suddenly became personal. It became personal not only for certain individuals, but for whole organizations. The amount of hatred and anger flowing to both sides is far too great, now. This river of hatred not only ruins game for everyone, but also develops certain traditions in both organizations and individuals, that are more directed to hurting opponent personally - instead of fight him honorably. It is only a game, and after a fight, opposing commanders should shake each others hands instead of giving last strength to flame each other. This isn’t a way a warrior should act. It seems that principles of many region crashers became to shout loud, flame hard, kick it where it hurts when your opponent is lying down, and be ignorant and blind to what your opponent has to say - simply because you label him as arch enemy already. And an arch enemy is a complete moron, right? I think that this is wrong. In my humble opinion, each warrior-in-heart even while playing a game should act on five principles.

Loyalty. One in the field is not a warrior. Your comrades in arms trust you. They give you their trust, the greatest thing what anyone can receive from another man, and it is low and wrong to misuse it.

Discipline. It goes hand in hand with loyalty. No one is asking you to spend endless hours at night at your computer. But if you joined with your comrades, be sure to do what you promised, arrive on time and do not destroy their fun with hasty and unneeded actions.

Respect. If he is your comrade, your fellow warrior that fights next to you, doesn’t he deserve your respect? What if he is your opponent? He is a warrior, just like you. Even if he lost, he stood back, and fought. Doesn’t he deserve respect for that? He won, but he won with honor, and he doesn’t try to humiliate you. Doesn’t he deserve respect for that? No matter, if he isn’t fighting you, and is a native. You invaded his homeland, and he is polite with you. He doesn’t insult you, and he is a nice and polite host. Doesn’t he deserve respect for this?

Honor. Even if people you are dealing with do complete opposite to what was said about respect it doesn’t mean that you can lower yourself to their level. If you are dealing with a spammer - do not spam back. If you are dealing with a slanderer - do not slander back. Do not flame back, nor try to humiliate your opponents at every possibility. Why? Because a true warrior doesn’t act like this. Always try to be polite, always follow rules of war, and stand as example to your comrades.

Rectitude. This can be defined as “Always do the right thing”. If you know that you are right, that you are acting right, never stop no matter what are the consequences. It is up for an individual to decide what is right and what is wrong for him. But once he makes this decision, he must always follow it.

Why one should act according these principles? Why this is better then good old “An eye for an eye”? One should act like this, because if you act like warrior, you will be treated like one. Even if it is hard sometimes, we all are humans and we all get angry, we have to do our best to elevate ourselves. And if we are doing our best, no one can ask for more.

On the organization.

One in the field is not a warrior. Without brothers in arms a raider cannot do much. This is where warrior clans step in. In order to be able to fight in NationStates, warriors must organize themselves into large groups. As we see in the current situation, there are several major region crasher groups (DEN, Invaders, TITO, AND, RLA) and a lot of smaller groups. I shall not discuss here what makes them bigger, and what the differences between them are. There would be lots of pages of writing on this. Instead, I will offer my thoughts what should be the perfect region crasher organization. In my opinion, there are five elephants, five pillars that hold a really successful warrior clan.

First and foremost what is needed to be successful is dedication. Without dedication, without acknowledging one’s duties and privileges as a region crasher, organization can not be successful. It is important that that dedication doesn’t concentrate only on the top of leadership pyramid. It is very important, that all warriors acknowledge their part in the organization. Of course, the leader should be more active and dedicated, but each trooper should devote at least some of their daily free time for the success of whole clan.

Second, but a no less important pillar of successful organization, is trust. It is hard to trust someone you can not look into the eyes, but it is necessary. Instead of thinking, that trooper might be a spy, until he proves otherwise; leader should think that every trooper is genuine, until he proves otherwise. Nevertheless, troopers should fully trust their commanders. If there are any doubts, these must be addressed immediately, because a simple distrust may end up in missed winning opportunities, and personal feuds. If a leader looses trust of the troopers, they must immediately bring it up. Otherwise time and energy will be wasted on secret discussions that always are completely fruitless. If a trooper loose trust of the leader, if the leader gets even slight evidence, that the trooper is not worthy his trust, he should remove compromised trooper from organization immediately. It is better to be wrong, then sorry.

And here comes in action the third pillar - qualities of the leader. Of course, the leader has to be an example for the rest of the troops. It is absolutely a must for him to act on the 5 principles - Loyalty, Respect, Honor, Discipline and Rectitude. But that is not enough. To maintain sufficient level of dedication, he must not only show an example, but also know how to reward the worthy, and how to say a stricter - but not offensive - word for less motivated. To maintain trust in the organization he must be able to accept critics and questions of the troopers, as well as make strong decisions on who to admit and who to remove to. The leader has to be completely unselfish, and understand that his duty in the organization is not to win battles, but not to allow the troops to loose. Troopers are for winning, and leader is for not loosing.

Fourth pillar is the troopers. What troopers make up a successful region crashing organization? First of all, they have to follow the five principles. It is that what makes them warriors. If all troopers follow the five principles, trust each other are dedicated and understand their duties - nothing can stop them.

Fifth pillar - administration. It is very important how things are run in the organization. Import thing is to divide the organization into two parts - center, that makes decisions, and body, that does the action. Ideally, there is a single man in the center, and several dozens in the body. It is very important for all involved people to understand, that leading a raiding organization is a heavy burden, and everyone around should do their part to ease it. Leader should not be the eyes that gather information. Leader should not be the mouth that voices the group opinion. Leader should not be the fist that delivers fatal blow to the enemy, not the legs that retreats. Heh, ideally a leader should not be even the brains that interpret and analyze all information gathered through eyes and ears. All these must be troopers that make up the body. Leader of region crasher clan must be the central nerve system, that depending on gathered in the eyes and ears and interpreted in the brain information coordinate actions of mouth, fist and legs. If eyes can provide information, nerve system coordinate actions, and fist fulfill those actions the organization will be unstoppable.

If all five pillars are present, great future awaits the organization. If one or more is missing, organization might be successful only if its rivals have missing few more.

On the new knighthood:

As you could have guessed, I am writing all this not without a purpose. Together with my thoughts about region crashing, I would like to present you my new creation. It is a brotherhood of warriors, a new knighthood of NationStates - The Brother Knights of the War Temple of NationStates.

How will it be different from other region crasher clans? I plan to use everything I mentioned in this writing in it. In order to provide bigger battles and thus more fun for NationStates players, I plan to focus on cooperation between organizations, and joint operations. Of course, region crasher duties as auditors and revivers will not be forgotten.
I plan to gather warriors, who believe in the five principles, and I plan to enforce all five pillars of successful organization. I do not claim that it will be perfect, but hell, I will do my best. Can you ask for more?

Therefore, I announce Order of the Brother Knights of the War Temple of NationStates, with headquarters at region The Cathedral, and with first Grand Master Debugistan, officially founded.

BUMP.

People really should read this.

Blah blah blah, I hate it when you guys invade a purely roleplaying region with your justifications about the "regional government" and how the UN Delegate is some sort of actual ruler over the region. You play a game a totally different way from the ones you target, and what happens when you pile into a region and disrupt the roleplay and creativity and comfortable atmosphere is you simply wreck the game for others.

You FORCE them to have to deal with your preferred, and completely unintended (as far as game design) method of playing the game, and guess what? It's not fun for everyone. It's not what a lot of people came to play this game for. I hate having to be watchdog over who in my region clicked on the "Join UN button" and who is endorsing whom. I hate having to wonder if I'll get to roleplay tomorrow or if everyone will be upset because a bunch of boy soldiers playing nazi are parading around the region, spamming the regional HQ and acting as if they actually conquered people who were opposing them in the manner they were engaging in 'combat.'

Hitting roleplaying regions is like shooting civilians... but you guys do it and brag about it anyway.

There. I'm done ranting.

Very well said, Debugistan. I could not agree more with your assessment of the role of the raider within NationStates, as well as the need for change within this style of gameplay.

Many of you will recall that we attempted just such a change during the 2004 Global Summit on Raiderplay and Defensive Operations. It is interesting to note that while all but one major raider organization was amenable to the changes sought, the defender organizations (with the exception of the Emergency Auxiliary Army) fought tooth and nail against changes which would have streamlined the practice of raiderplay AND offered protection for those regions which did not seek to engage in this style of play. I agree wholeheartedly with your ideas, Debugistan, and applaud your efforts at creating a new system within NationStates. The very best of success to you.

---General Powell
Founder and First Field Commander
Army of DEN

Santa Barbara, thanks for you opinion. Now, few points:

"You FORCE them to have to deal with your preferred, and completely unintended (as far as game design) method of playing the game"

This is a quote from NationStates FAQ:

"Can I invade other people's regions?
Yes. The practice of "region crashing," where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the UN Delegate position, is part of the game. Certain groups within NationStates are particularly adroit at this, and can attack very quickly.

Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?
No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side."

Other point:

"playing nazi are parading around the region, spamming the regional HQ"

You are speaking about greifers here, and this article is not about them. I have said allready, how true region crashers should behave themselves, so if you have read the whole text, you will know that, and I won't copy it here.


General Powell, thanks for your kind words.

Well said Debug

"You FORCE them to have to deal with your preferred, and completely unintended (as far as game design) method of playing the game"

This is a quote from NationStates FAQ:

"Can I invade other people's regions?
Yes. The practice of "region crashing," where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the UN Delegate position, is part of the game. Certain groups within NationStates are particularly adroit at this, and can attack very quickly.

Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?
No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side."

Well, maybe you weren't playing this game before that when those parts of the FAQ weren't written, and they had to later add them in because of the unexpected aspect of the game became popular.

Like I said. And let me find some bits of your article...

Invasion forces a sleepy and happy-with-itself region to move forward - create a regional guard, create more stable government, pay attention to regional security. Overall, it encourages them to enhance their region, because the bigger it is, the less possibility for it to get invaded.

(Key phrases bolded)

Your own words you describe how you force players to play the game the way you do or suffer your presence and "rule" and disruption.


Other point:

"playing nazi are parading around the region, spamming the regional HQ"

You are speaking about greifers here, and this article is not about them. I have said allready, how true region crashers should behave themselves, so if you have read the whole text, you will know that, and I won't copy it here.

No. Do you have rules about not hitting roleplaying regions? Do all "true region crashers" have them?

And when I said spamming I meant when you post after your invasion, with whatever invasion-related nonsense you guys tend to say. And you always do that, I've never seen a silent invasion.

I consider region crashing in a roleplaying region to itself be spam and griefing, but unfortunately there are more crashers/defenders than there are roleplayers, and Max caters to the majority since you're potential target market for NS2 as well as book sales.

So you WIN. Because there are MORE of you, you get to FORCE others to either play just like you, or find a game where they can roleplay a nationstate without being "invaded" by Private First Class of Bob Sagget.

Santa Barbara,

So you actually read it all? Nice to see. Now, to move on the discussion.

No, probably I was not around back then. But, as you said yourself, it became very popular. If not region crashing, I and a lot of other peoples would have left this game to find another, where they could fight without the need to explain things to role players.

Now, that my quote you showed. Re read it again. It forces the region to become bigger, better organized place with more stable government, and some kind of regional security. Of course, some region chooses not to do that, and get invaded again after few months.

Now, you say we force a "rule" over them. It is always temporary. Raiders are not interested in carving empires. We take over, hold it for a few days and move on.

As for rules not to hit role pay regions. Well, you can thank the defender side for not having them. I do not know if you heard that, but some time ago raiders tried to agree with defenders on some crashing rules. That would have prevented raiding of role play. I do not remember all proposed rules, but there was even a rule, that if ¼ of all native UN nations tell for raiders to move out, they have to move out. Defenders did not agreed on these rules.

As for silent invasion, look at some of them. We usually announce the victory in home region, the old raiding club, and sometimes, pacifics. Arguments in invaded regions start, when people start to flame bait raiders. And even then, raiders always tend to more polite, and silent.

Lastly, some people (like me) might consider calling them "nazi" to be a bit offensive. Please, reconsider your terms if you want to continue this discussion.

Here here!

That was so good Debugistan! :)

Well said Debug. Like a true raider, and most of all, like a true raider leader.

I consider region crashing in a roleplaying region to itself be spam and griefing, but unfortunately there are more crashers/defenders than there are roleplayers, and Max caters to the majority since you're potential target market for NS2 as well as book sales.

How is crashing an RP region griefing and spam?

I believe griefing is defined as mass ejection and banning of native nations. If you crash a RP region and boot maybe a native or two, and unbann them immediatly, then it isn't griefing.

As for spam, well... i also don't see how invading a RP region is spam. If you could answer those questions, i might be able to see your point of view.


-Drakothonia II, Invaders Field Marshall, Invaders Minister of Foreign Affairs, and The Storm over Chaos.

No, probably I was not around back then. But, as you said yourself, it became very popular. If not region crashing, I and a lot of other peoples would have left this game to find another, where they could fight without the need to explain things to role players.

Want a game like that? Try battlemaster.com. Invading is actually part of the core game there.


Now, that my quote you showed. Re read it again.

Hmm, okay.

It forces the region to become bigger, better organized place with more stable government, and some kind of regional security.

That's what I thought it says. FORCES. As in, now we can't just roleplay, now we have to worry about assholes who like to piss in the punch bowl.

In case you didn't know, roleplayers rarely have a "government" consisting of their roleplayed nation, and every other player's nation in their region, let alone want to make it more "stable" or have "regional security."

Maybe it's geeky to you or difficult to understand, but they actually have more complex politics in roleplay than your REGION = GOVERNMENT and NATION = CITIZEN and UN NATION = SOLDIER.


Now, you say we force a "rule" over them.

Actually, "force" was your word. That's what I meant.


It is always temporary.

So is rape. Must not be so bad then.


Raiders are not interested in carving empires. We take over, hold it for a few days and move on.

Rapists are not interested in marrying women. They take her over, hold them down for a few minutes and move on.

As for rules not to hit role pay regions. Well, you can thank the defender side for not having them. I do not know if you heard that, but some time ago raiders tried to agree with defenders on some crashing rules. That would have prevented raiding of role play. I do not remember all proposed rules, but there was even a rule, that if ¼ of all native UN nations tell for raiders to move out, they have to move out. Defenders did not agreed on these rules.

Whatever. I thought I heard you mention something about "true crashers" and allusions to the concept of honor. Apparently, you were lying on both counts and you can, in fact, only do what the Defenders say you can. Like hit roleplaying regions because they're easy targets. Their "government" isn't "organized" to "fight" you.


As for silent invasion, look at some of them. We usually announce the victory in home region, the old raiding club, and sometimes, pacifics. Arguments in invaded regions start, when people start to flame bait raiders. And even then, raiders always tend to more polite, and silent.

That's because you get DEATed if you're not.

And golly, you mean people who don't play the game the way you do object when you force your way on them? You mean they argue about it? You mean they don't think you earn the title of conqueror of their region just by electing a new delegate? You mean what you do is actually disruptive and annoying?

True!


Lastly, some people (like me) might consider calling them "nazi" to be a bit offensive. Please, reconsider your terms if you want to continue this discussion.

Fine. You're not (all) nazis.

Just nazi-like when you invade RPing regions. It's kind of like Germany versus Poland, only you're polite about it and the Allies didn't agree on a treaty (therefore justifying it). Oh and of course, you're helping "evolve" Poles when they eventually fight back or die, since "becoming more like you" is the same as "evolving."

Better?

How is crashing an RP region griefing and spam?

I believe griefing is defined as mass ejection and banning of native nations. If you crash a RP region and boot maybe a native or two, and unbann them immediatly, then it isn't griefing

There's always a rules lawyer, isn't there? I don't care about the according to Hoyle definition of griefing. To me, griefing is when you cause other players grief and ruin their enjoyment of the game. Like say, interrupting their roleplay and "forcing" them to "evolve" into having a "regional government."

As for spam, well... i also don't see how invading a RP region is spam. If you could answer those questions, i might be able to see your point of view.

Every invasion is accompanied by a growing traffic of regional board postings and when it's a roleplayed region, pretty much none of them have anything to do with the usual gameplay of the region. Just pissed off players.

And you know what, people, I've invaded. I've been there. I've played this game for two years now and I know a thing or two. But I never invaded roleplaying regions, or dying places with inactive members, because that's like raping women and shooting children as far as a test of your invading skills and honor goes.

Its wuite funny though, because many crasher regions, and crashers themselves, start out as RP regions, and RPers. And believe me, i don't invade helpless regions if i can avoid it, and i've seen RP regions just manipulate a crash of thier region into their RP, and just had fun off that, we just postted a simple message saying we would leave at a later time and please endorse our delegate, they endorsed us, thanked us for posting a short message and then they continued on until we left, which they also manipulated in.

And believe me, about the region growth, some regions keep the growth and thank us for it, as is the situation in the region i am currently UN delegate over, Hell. I have recieved thanks for helping them grow with people other then my own soldiers, and for not booting many of them.

Snip.

There is no honor, glory, or victory in taking what is not yours.

I consider region crashing in a roleplaying region to itself be spam and griefing, but unfortunately there are more crashers/defenders than there are roleplayers, and Max caters to the majority since you're potential target market for NS2 as well as book sales.

Unfortunately, the way the rules are, it doesn't matter how you see it. It's unfortunate, too, that invading/defending came into existense, but alas, role-playing, too, wasn't expected to develop from NationStates when it first started either. It's one of those necessary evils, invading/defending, but allowed not because we're the majority but because it, too, is a part of the game we love, just as you love to role-play.

Unfortunately, the way the rules are, it doesn't matter how you see it. It's unfortunate, too, that invading/defending came into existense, but alas, role-playing, too, wasn't expected to develop from NationStates when it first started either. It's one of those necessary evils, invading/defending, but allowed not because we're the majority but because it, too, is a part of the game we love, just as you love to role-play.

Granted, but does that mean they actually get to FORCE (their own word remember) roleplayers to STOP ROLEPLAYING and BECOME INVADERS/DEFENDERS?

That's just terrible in my view. I mean of course it's not actual force in the sense of they have guns to their head. They just have a choice: try to roleplay and ignore them (impossible given the disruption caused by the invasion, except on offsite forum) or stop roleplaying and get into that stupid aspect of the game just so they can, hopefully, eventually, maybe be able to roleplay again.

Drak, you make my point as well. More invader/defenders, less roleplayers. Frankly I see the game as a roleplaying one by nature: it's a "nation simulation" game and most "simulation" games are actually roleplaying games; like Flight Simulator, you're roleplaying a pilot flying a plane. Sure you may not roleplay in the sense of naming an imaginary character and such. But its still basically, playing a role outside your own. But invader/defenders usually rank themselves in a military fashion and ignore the whole "nation" part of the game. It's hard to incorporate invaders into a roleplay where actual political simulation of nations goes on, because the Master Sergeant of Hippobuttia doesn't fit into the roleplayed reality at all.

It's like try to imagine one day, the United States wakes up to find that, say, North America has been invaded. By the Private 2nd class of InvadaMasta. He's become the "regional UN Delegate." There hasn't been an actual WAR, but everyone seems to think there has. Oh, and 20 new nations have sprung up overnight out of nowhere.

Doesn't sound like quality roleplay to me. Imagine that as a movie plot. Would you see it? Maybe if you were drunk or 12 years old.

Maybe I'm just not creative enough to incorporate the concept of jerks into a political sim.

Santa Bourabo or whatever your name is

1. Dont you dare Compare Invading to rape.. That what made me make this post, dont even try to compare invaders and rapists, Its a stupid thing to do, invaders arent evil people trying to ruin lifes.

2. Like it or lump it, Invading is part of the game, Your comparison to The USA thing is stupid, As since when was anything in this game realistic?

3. Dont have a go at 12 year olds either, I'm betting a fair few People here, including the role-players are that age. Albeit kinda odd 12 year olds. But then it seems a lot of people here are odd

Santa Bourabo or whatever your name is

1. Dont you dare Compare Invading to rape.. That what made me make this post, dont even try to compare invaders and rapists, Its a stupid thing to do, invaders arent evil people trying to ruin lifes.

If the shoe fits....


2. Like it or lump it, Invading is part of the game, Your comparison to The USA thing is stupid,

How?

As since when was anything in this game realistic?

Some people roleplay. Those universes they roleplay in are sometiems realistic. More often they are at least consistent. Incompatible with your version of "invasion" since they role play invasions (and everything else) in a completely different way then you do.



3. Dont have a go at 12 year olds either, I'm betting a fair few People here, including the role-players are that age. Albeit kinda odd 12 year olds. But then it seems a lot of people here are odd

Right. I didn't mean 12 year olds, I meant immature 12 year olds. Better?

Congratulations and good work Debugistan! I will be joining this new Brotherhood. I have had a great time with my friends in The Imperial Coalition from the early days as a footslogger up to commanding armies and spy networks, however it is simply time for a change. I have done what I could in The IC and wish my good comrades there all the best. I am looking forward to my new life as a member of the brotherhood. It will most likely take me the remainder of the week to tie up loose ends and make a curteous break with my old comrades, but after that all the opposing region-crashers can change my affiliation in their lists and we can meet again on the battlefeild regions under new colors.

(And as for argumentative RPer's who are so unbalanced as to compare online game activities to RL high crimes, why bandy words with one who shows a complete lack of logic and only the most banal and unimaginative grasp of analogy? Crossing swords with a fool only makes you too a fool).

(And as for argumentative RPer's who are so unbalanced as to compare online game activities to RL high crimes, why bandy words with one who shows a complete lack of logic and only the most banal and unimaginative grasp of analogy? Crossing swords with a fool only makes you too a fool).

Right, well why bother to address someone's points they raised when you can just insult them and dismiss without any reasoning? And pretend you're so much better for not insulting, by hiding your insults in the third person.

And "crossing swords?" Is that what debate is to you? Talk about a banal and unimaginative analogy. You must be a fool. In fact, by your own logic, so is Debugistan for 'crossing swords' with me - way to go, insult everybody.

You know, am I just talking Greek here? Are you region crashers just completely incapable of understand facts like:

-Not everyone does, OR SHOULD play this game the way you do.
-Not everyone joins a Nation Simulation game to play "warrior"

You people are a bunch of jerks when you step on other people's game. And you defend your right to ruin other people's fun. You applaud yourselves for "forcing" other players to take measures just to get RID of you. You consider yourselves the hand of evolution and as warriors.

I'm not gonna stop arguing about this, (certainly not due to stupid ad hominem tactics like those just used by Pirates Roost.)

Leave roleplaying regions alone.

Santa,

One thing you do not understand: I posted this article not to start a university, that would explain people like yourself what is raiding. I wrote this to state my opinion. I stated it, other people stated it, and YOU have stated it numerous times.

At first yes, i tried to discuss with you. But instead of looking at what is posted, you simply choose to shout out loud. Well, if that is what you want - sure, go ahead. As I see, you can succefsuly can do that alone.

As for your "debate". How can one debate with you, when you post like this? By you, I have been called till now: (by order of appearance)
Nazi, spammer, griefer, rapist, child killer, jerk, a**hole, rapist againa, jerk again.

My goal with my post was to present my opinionm and to hear comments from people I care about. And I have succesfuly done this. Your goal in tis topic was to shout and insult. And you're doing very good.

Ugh. As I said before (though I guess you CHOSE not to look at what is posted, eh?) I already know what raiding is, and have done it myself.

Secondly, I never said "You're a nazi." I likened actions and behaviors. If that makes you feel personally as if I'm calling you a nazi, maybe you do need to re-examine your behavior. What did nazis do? Invade nations that weren't their enemies? Aha. What do you do when you hit roleplaying regions? Same damn thing, isn't it? No roleplayers ever crash YOUR region and FORCE you to start roleplaying, to start playing the game the way somebody else does, do they? No. But you do that to other people, by your own admission.

And the thing is, in your opinion this is "honorable."

Well I guess if you just don't really understand the concept of honor there's no more we can do here. You'll continue to think you're some kind of knight.

Also, my "goal" is not to "shout and insult." In case you haven't noticed, it's a text based form of communication in which there is no shouting, and in case you also haven't noticed the insults have been flowing both ways. But if you continue to ACT like a jerk, continue to defend the right of Honorable Knight Invaders to engage in the moral equivalent of shooting anyone who DOESNT have a gun, I will continue to point this out and object to it.

Sorry if that offends you. :( I know how emotionally sensitive invaders are, especially the ones that hit roleplaying regions.