NationStates Jolt Archive


Problems in the Nationstates Hierarchy

Largent
18-12-2004, 02:06
Well, over the past year and three months I have been in existance I have noted some very curious flaws in the way nations were ranked in power.
The first off and probably most important is age.

I've noticed that if a nation is, oh say, from December 2002 they are infanatley more powerful than a nation of maybe my age. I do not understand why this is. Sure, there is the small flaw that every day your population always increases and never recedes, but still, why should that matter.

Lets use a real life example. Lets compare Egypt and China to the USA. Egypt is infanatley older than the US and China has a population 3 times that of the US. That is the equivelant of a nation like Melkor, Scolopenra, Menelmecar, to a nation maybe from March of 2004.

In the Real world who would win? Duh! The US(not to be racial). Now, in the NS world. Who would win. Again, Duh, everyone would agree the bigger nation would win.

Now, in RL the US has better tech wich is basically the deciding factor to some extent. This too applies to NS. A nation with a population of 20 million possesing nuclear weapons would be a spam fest from bigger nations. My question is "why"? Population has nothing to do with how advanced your technology is or if you can have nukes.

Now, don't get me the wrong way, a nation a day old can't come out with a billion nukes and start turning people to craters. However, if a new nation were to get on the forums and RP weapons production no one should have a problem with it.

Some people will also say 'Well, older nations have more money and time to build a mlitary,' and this is true however a nation who is maybe three months older and half a billion peope larger than another nation really has no edge over any other nation three month younger than it unless one nation had a poor economy.

Lets look at some realistic numbers:
Nationx: 4 billion
Nationy: 2 billion
Active army size: .5%-1% of total pop.
Nationx: 20-40 million
Nationy: 10-20 million
(Keep in mind, these statistics are rather drastic)

Depending on the situation and the fact that Nationy could have better tech I wouldn't necissarily say the outcome has been decided. The odds are fairly one sided but a single ally or a simple military blunder could really swing the outcome of such a war.

One final thing people do is lable new nations as "n00bs", as we have come to know the word. Now they are new wich may classify them as newbies, aka newcomers, however they aren't necissarily cheaters. This is one major reason why age commonly decides power regardless of the specifics of the situation.

There, my ranting over the flaws of the nationstates psyche is done. i have done all I can do to try and change what has already worked its way into the inner workings of our minds. If this fails screw it, I give up! :(
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:14
The facts you have stated are just that, facts. The fact of the game is that the greater the population, the greater the power. That is how everyone role plays, and it is unlikely to change. The only advice I can give you is to learn how to role play, and role play well. I will post some threads for you, but do a quick search for Automagfreek, he knows his stuff. If you learn to role play, you will be respected, regardless of the size of your army.
Largent
18-12-2004, 02:17
The facts you have stated are just that, facts. The fact of the game is that the greater the population, the greater the power. That is how everyone role plays, and it is unlikely to change. The only advice I can give you is to learn how to role play, and role play well. I will post some threads for you, but do a quick search for Automagfreek, he knows his stuff. If you learn to role play, you will be respected, regardless of the size of your army.

Okay, first off, I can roleplay, at that I can roleplay very well. This is just to point out that just because a nation is maybe a month or two older than another doesn't make it more powerful. Those are the true facts(You may want to read the post more carefully, the facts I states are the ones I just repeated for you, not the fact that older nations are more powerful, just considered to be).
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:17
Also, if you role play well, no one will care that you are new to the game. The term "n00b" is only giving to nations that do not know how to write. I can think of several older "n00bs."

Here is the thread I promised. It has links to just about every guide to role playing ever created. It was written by Euroslavia, and what an excellent job he did.
Guide to NationStates (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=357975)
Largent
18-12-2004, 02:19
Also, if you role play well, no one will care that you are new to the game. The term "n00b" is only giving to nations that do not know how to write. I can think of several older "n00bs."

Here is the thread I promised. It has links to just about every guide to role playing ever created. It was written by Euroslavia, and what an excellent job he did.
Guide to NationStates (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=357975)

I read that thread LAST YEAR!! When I was new to the game. i have never been labeled a noob, nothing I posted is referring to me specifically. I use myself as an example once, not the main topic. :rolleyes:

Also, new nations that can RP are often labeled noobs, I've seen it very often.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:21
Okay, first off, I can roleplay, at that I can roleplay very well.

Whatever you say, I do not role play anymore.

This is just to point out that just because a nation is maybe a month or two older than another doesn't make it more powerful. Those are the true facts(You may want to read the post more carefully, the facts I states are the ones I just repeated for you, not the fact that older nations are more powerful, just considered to be).

My bad, but I must disagree. What you say may be true, but the reality of the situation is, the larger the population, the more powerful the nation. Now I do not agree with this, but that is how the rest of NationStates role plays, and you are not really offering a solution anyway... You have several options. Attempt to change the way people role play, live with it, or quit.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:22
I read that thread LAST YEAR!! When I was new to the game. i have never been labeled a noob, nothing I posted is referring to me specifically. I use myself as an example once, not the main topic. :rolleyes:

Also, new nations that can RP are often labeled noobs, I've seen it very often.

Tough man. The standard of role playing is not very high in NationStates, part of the reason I am now a regional defender...
Tuesday Heights
18-12-2004, 02:33
The fact of the game is that the greater the population, the greater the power..

See, I don't see that as being the whole truth at all.

Most RPers, where most of this population and power comes into play, will generally ignore population in the overall scheme of things to write out a good war with another nation where their population might not even come close to the other.

I think it all depends on what type of RP you're doing, who you're doing it with, and the planning behind it. Since the game is mostly based in RP and text-related incidents... then, it's safe to say that a nation is only as powerful as their knowledge in role-playing and their ability to take chances and be fair.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:37
See, I don't see that as being the whole truth at all.

Most RPers, where most of this population and power comes into play, will generally ignore population in the overall scheme of things to write out a good war with another nation where their population might not even come close to the other.

I think it all depends on what type of RP you're doing, who you're doing it with, and the planning behind it. Since the game is mostly based in RP and text-related incidents... then, it's safe to say that a nation is only as powerful as their knowledge in role-playing and their ability to take chances and be fair.

Depends on how good the role player is. Maybe people have gotten better, but when I quit role playing, nations worshipped the population god.
Largent
18-12-2004, 02:37
Whatever you say, I do not role play anymore.


you are not really offering a solution anyway... You have several options. Attempt to change the way people role play, live with it, or quit.

Thats not what I'm trying to do. I am simply bringing up the topic and looking for other opinions/ trying to get a good discussion going.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:39
Thats not what I'm trying to do. I am simply bringing up the topic and looking for other opinions/ trying to get a good discussion going.

Mission accomplished?
Largent
18-12-2004, 02:41
See, I don't see that as being the whole truth at all.

Most RPers, where most of this population and power comes into play, will generally ignore population in the overall scheme of things to write out a good war with another nation where their population might not even come close to the other.

I think it all depends on what type of RP you're doing, who you're doing it with, and the planning behind it. Since the game is mostly based in RP and text-related incidents... then, it's safe to say that a nation is only as powerful as their knowledge in role-playing and their ability to take chances and be fair.

I do sort of agree. In many RPs population is totally irrelevant. I am talking more about the polotics of NS and war situations when you don't have the gods of RPing involved.

When forming alliances, more often than not, the bigger nations get seats of power, when wars are just starting off people often do not take younger nations as seriously. That is what i have a problem with.
Largent
18-12-2004, 02:42
Mission accomplished?

Well, at least we have a good discussion and the topic is getting adressed.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:42
Do not get me started on alliances...
Tuesday Heights
18-12-2004, 02:48
I do sort of agree. In many RPs population is totally irrelevant. I am talking more about the polotics of NS and war situations when you don't have the gods of RPing involved.

Obviously, it takes a very good RPer to look beyond just mere statistics when it comes to the game. More often that not, NS can be filled with wankers and godmodders and God-knows what else... it takes a good writer to write, a here you'll find at the same time many and few.

When forming alliances, more often than not, the bigger nations get seats of power, when wars are just starting off people often do not take younger nations as seriously. That is what i have a problem with.

Are you talking about role-playing in this scenario? Or are you speaking on in-game matters? I find in the latter, that bigger regions are more open to aligning themselves with smaller regions with a growing base to help make them better in the long-run. At least, that's what I've encountered.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 02:53
Are you talking about role-playing in this scenario? Or are you speaking on in-game matters? I find in the latter, that bigger regions are more open to aligning themselves with smaller regions with a growing base to help make them better in the long-run. At least, that's what I've encountered.

I have noticed that myself about in-game alliances. The larger region wishes to help the smaller region grow so that the alliance, as you said, pays off better in the end. But role played alliances are another story.

Role played alliances are usually about seventy random nations strewn together in an "alliance." And many of these nations are enemies of each other due to other "alliances." It is the worst part of role playing if I do say so myself, and horribly unrealilistic.
Tuesday Heights
18-12-2004, 03:18
Role played alliances are usually about seventy random nations strewn together in an "alliance." And many of these nations are enemies of each other due to other "alliances." It is the worst part of role playing if I do say so myself, and horribly unrealilistic.

Many of these role-played alliances usually fall apart, too.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 03:58
Many of these role-played alliances usually fall apart, too.

Indeed.
Sarzonia
18-12-2004, 04:04
The facts you have stated are just that, facts. The fact of the game is that the greater the population, the greater the power. That is how everyone role plays, and it is unlikely to change.I beg to differ on your characterization of what *everyone* in NS does. I recall that one of my biggest military victories was against a larger country with more advanced tech than I had. Size alone does not determine how much power you have, as I and several other RPers have said in many different ways. Technology alone doesn't determine power if the country with the technology is outclassed in the strategy department.

If RP ability were the sole determining factor in someone's status as a powerful country, you'd likely see a very different hierarchical landscape than currently exists.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 04:08
I beg to differ on your characterization of what *everyone* in NS does. I recall that one of my biggest military victories was against a larger country with more advanced tech than I had. Size alone does not determine how much power you have, as I and several other RPers have said in many different ways. Technology alone doesn't determine power if the country with the technology is outclassed in the strategy department.

If RP ability were the sole determining factor in someone's status as a powerful country, you'd likely see a very different hierarchical landscape than currently exists.

Fair enough, not everyone can be characterized as such. But I think it is safe to say that a majority role play the way I say, just judging from the endless lists of alliances more complicated than the ones that [more or less] led to World War I.
Largent
18-12-2004, 04:12
I beg to differ on your characterization of what *everyone* in NS does. I recall that one of my biggest military victories was against a larger country with more advanced tech than I had. Size alone does not determine how much power you have, as I and several other RPers have said in many different ways. Technology alone doesn't determine power if the country with the technology is outclassed in the strategy department.

If RP ability were the sole determining factor in someone's status as a powerful country, you'd likely see a very different hierarchical landscape than currently exists.

I wish more people would think like you.
Tuesday Heights
18-12-2004, 04:25
If RP ability were the sole determining factor in someone's status as a powerful country, you'd likely see a very different hierarchical landscape than currently exists.

I agree here.
Largent
18-12-2004, 04:39
I agree here.

Yeah, i second that, One specific name comes to mind:

Dark Terror/ Bisons
Santa Barbara
18-12-2004, 17:13
I'm big, I'm powerful, that has nothing to do with any "hiearchy" of command though.

I suggest you all read Knoot's theorem on the wank-power optimum, easily readable at your local NS Wiki. RP ability does count, population and economy does count, everything counts - if it does. When it comes to war, the IC deciding factors - population, economy, strategy, luck, logistics, environment - CAN be offset more or less completely by the OOC factors - 'better RPing,' popularity, real life issues. Ideally we'd want a balance, or ideally the OOC wouldn't matter because we'd all be such good roleplayers that none of our actual personality and biases interfere. But, I'm not an idealist, and I see that a lot of the politics in the RP world are about the players, not the nations.
Grenval
18-12-2004, 19:08
You must see the finer side of role playing. Perhaps during my absence of late, things have improved.
Euroslavia
19-12-2004, 02:39
Also, if you role play well, no one will care that you are new to the game. The term "n00b" is only giving to nations that do not know how to write. I can think of several older "n00bs."

Here is the thread I promised. It has links to just about every guide to role playing ever created. It was written by Euroslavia, and what an excellent job he did.
Guide to NationStates (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=357975)


Why thank you Grenval! :)


There are a lot of nations out there who claim to be more powerful due to their creation date. Personally, I never look at the creation date, and judge any nation by that. I am open to making alliances/peace with anyone, just as long as they can roleplay decently, and if they can't, I do try my best at helping them improve. I understand sometimes, that when you're new at this, it can be very imtimidating, and you may not be sure as to what you should post. Heck, when I joined NS, I didn't know what a 'Sticky' was, and I didn't know how to roleplay, but I suppose I've come a long way. :p

One thing that bothers me is when older nations refuse to roleplay with nations much smaller than them, based on the fact that they are larger, and much stronger (based on the hierarchy that majority of nations in NS agree upon). I find that to be quite arrogant. There are few nations out there who are willing to roleplay with any nation, despite their creation date.
Sarzonia
05-01-2005, 17:37
Fair enough, not everyone can be characterized as such. But I think it is safe to say that a majority role play the way I say, just judging from the endless lists of alliances more complicated than the ones that [more or less] led to World War I.Maybe a majority do play that way, but I think the genuinely great RPers do not.

I *firmly* disagree with your assertion that "population size" equals power. For one thing, you could RP having the largest population in the world but it could be stricken with famine or technologically backward or both. Either that or you could have nothing but blubbering idiots in your military chain of command. Meanwhile, the snivelly little 500 million population country could have brilliant command of several branches of combat including brilliant admirals and ship captains. Not only that, but the smaller country could build higher quality weapons and ships/vehicles. If that's the case, the smaller country is more powerful.

For me, size is only a factor if there's an enormous disparity between the two countries AND the RP abilities of both players is close to equal. Both factors have to be in line for the overmatch to hold true. If the "larger" country can't RP his way out of a paper bag and the "smaller" country is good to great as an RPer, the smaller country will most likely PWN the larger one. I can think of larger countries I could probably beat in my sleep if I were focused on winning and I can think of smaller countries I know I'd have to work hard perhaps to squeeze out a status quo ante bellum treaty against.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Vollmeria
05-01-2005, 19:04
Power is simply measured with three factors: Size, Economy, Miltary funding

Size lets you have a big manpowerpool, China for instance can easily replace casualties, something that will be much harder for a nation like France. The Chinese army is also much bigger than the French

Economy will give you the supplies (food, ammo, weapons and possibly oil) your army needs to operate. And then we get to number 3, the most important factor

Military funds give you the ability to raise a well-equiped army and train it to become the best of the world (Like Germany in the beginning of WW2). Training includes the theories and tactics that your officers learn at the military academy, those officers will command your army in the field and determine the overall strategy.

A Dec 2002 nation with frightening economy and lots of defense spending is more powerful than ... well any other nation i'm afraid. And usually only nation of the same age or close to it can beat them.

In the real world tacticians are predictable and the biggest nation with most military spending wins (it simply does) but on NS it are the players who decide what units fight how and where, thus a bigger nation may loose a war against a smaller one.
Huzen Hagen
05-01-2005, 19:34
Point is NS is nothing like the real world. Pretty much everyone claims to have as good tech as everyone else which brings population to the table. Even most of the communists nations seem to deny that there equipment is in anyway inferior. I think population starts drifiting out of the equation only when you either have a charchter rp or you end up with a mix of players. Example

Nation A is 2 billion but likes to have a realistic army so only has 2 million frontline personel

Nation B is 1.3 billion ignores logistics in any reaosnable form and so has 5 million frontline troops

Nation C ah you know where im getting at

Point is most people wont rp logististics and so it generally never affects an army icly. This arrangment only works when there is not too much ooc strain bewteen players or one player really just doesnt want to loose and we come to the slayer of more rps then i can imagine... THE TECH WANK. Some people are obsessed with the fact that things they have created ar so superior to anything else that they refues to even contemplate defeat but im wandering off so ill stop