NationStates Jolt Archive

I noticed that Better Times has taken over the delegate position in the NP. I also noticed that Better Times was never in the UN until 4 minutes before it took over and yet managed to get about 120 endorsements in 4 minutes.

How was this possible? I'm not claiming cheating or any wrongdoing on anyones part, just curious.

I noticed that Better Times has taken over the delegate position in the NP. I also noticed that Better Times was never in the UN until 4 minutes before it took over and yet managed to get about 120 endorsements in 4 minutes.

How was this possible? I'm not claiming cheating or any wrongdoing on anyones part, just curious.

Well... I assume you get enough people up during the night, and you also have backups in case a nation gets kicked out of the region.

If everyone knows what they're doing it's obviously possible. And thank goodness for it! :D

I was shocked to see the results of this movement. Kudos to the North Pacificans!

This should probably be in Gameplay.

Pre-endorsing. If you resign from the UN and then rejoin it, even after moving regions, your old UN endorsements will be there until the update. If the endorsing nations are still existant, in the UN, and the same region, they'll remain.

Pre-endorsing. If you resign from the UN and then rejoin it, even after moving regions, your old UN endorsements will be there until the update. If the endorsing nations are still existant, in the UN, and the same region, they'll remain.

Thank for the reply Myrth.
I understand that mechanism but I have no record of "better times" either joining, applying, or leaving the UN before Sunday. Then I only have an application for it on Sunday. Then ,of course, joining the UN last night.
Wouldn't an operation such as this require the nation to be in the UN sometime before last night?

This should probably be in Gameplay.
I'd prefer to keep it here as I was curious as to what mechanism in the game was used to make this happen. I'm not interested in how it affects the "game playing" part.
Thanks.

Wouldn't an operation such as this require the nation to be in the UN sometime before last night?

It would have, yes.

My puppet was there too, and they didn't need my endorsement. I had a puppet ready for 3 days, with UN aplication ready. I would have given up my delegate position for it, but they already had so many endorsements, that they didn't need me :(

Myrth,

I do desire the items filed by me with the mods to remain confidential, as they were filed with the expectation of confidentiality. The tactics used in this effort will probably be used again in a later event (not naming names here...) and I honestly do not appreciate a mod providing clues on our plans.

What happened is a method of liberation I came up with. I regard it part of the game for others to figure this out by themselves. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out, after all I came up with it without having an example in practice to study.

Ballotonia

It is a working of the game and therefore public knowledge.

It is a working of the game and therefore public knowledge.

Juxtapositions isn't asking how things work, he's asking how something was done.

Please confer with a Game Mod.

Ballotonia

Ballotonia:
Myrth isn't telling me a tactic that wasn't already known at least 8 months ago. Frankly I'm surprised it wasn't used before now by antis. I'm just confused because I had no record of "Better Times" ever being in the UN before last night and my records are usually pretty accurate. I guess I must have missed something somewhere though.

I am asking how something was done however it really is in reference to how the game works since I can find no evidence that the tactic mentioned here was used with the data I have. I thought maybe the game worked differently than what I thought.

Myrth hasn't said anything that isn't already known, Ballotonia. It's not our job to make sure we don't 'provide clues' to your invasion plans. You may regard it as a part of the game for others to learn these methods by themselves. We do not. As Myrth says, it's public knowledge.

Myrth hasn't said anything that isn't already known, Ballotonia. It's not our job to make sure we don't 'provide clues' to your invasion plans. You may regard it as a part of the game for others to learn these methods by themselves. We do not. As Myrth says, it's public knowledge.

The mods invite people with questions about game mechanics and what is or isn't legal to contact the mods in private if needed. I have done so. If you then do not feel maintaining confidentiality as part of your job, do you understand I have a major problem with the situation? I tell you guys what I'm up to, and next thing I know you just blurb it all over NS as part of answering 'technical questions'.

Juxtapositions isn't asking "is something wrong" or simply asking whether the rules were adhered to, nor asking for verification of his understanding of how the game works. He's asking directly how another player did something as he can't figure it out himself, and Myrth is feeding him clues to help him out.

My 'invasion plans' are *NOT* public knowledge.

(this issue bumped to admin)

Ballotonia

Whenever there is a loophole in the game, it is not up to moderators to give a full explanation how it is done. There were allot of people involved, so it is up to players amongst themselves. It is easy to find out, but it is not a technical problem, I think.

It is not our responsibility to hide how something was done. What is expected of us is to not release the details of the execution, i.e. date, players involved etc.

so that means don't tell your plans to the mods to ask if they're legal, cause they won't keep it quiet? :rolleyes:

Guys, calm down. As I said, this is not a new tactic although you seem to feel it is.
For what it's worth I hadn't gone back far enough in my data to find the evidence of this tactic occuring. I found it now. Had I done this previously I wouldn't have even asked but I wasn't at a place I could look far enough back and I wasn't patient enough to wait.

Christ, we all know that you'll use this tactic again in the pacific and they'll be looking for it. No big revelations in thie thread.

maybe it's not new for you, but for others it is.
and i'm not happy with an NPO supporting mod outing aspects of this invasion.

My 'invasion plans' are *NOT* public knowledge.

Your "invasion plans" were not made public, if they were, would they have actually worked?

It seems that you, and others within this thread, are fearful that more people might employ this tactic against your interests.

Since many of us already knew what Myrth pointed out, this is a discussion on game mechanics, not "Let's-all-discuss-Ballotonia's-invasion-plans."

I do believe if you would've actually discovered a new way of invading, per se (perhaps, a real loophole in the system), then, I do believe this would be a breach of confidentiality.

However, since this mechanical issue came out after the fact, I do believe the administrators of this game will rule on the sides of the moderators in question. They did, after all, nothing wrong; the NPO knows how to defend itself, GB knew how to defend itself, and look, they failed - they didn't anticipate it - and they surely weren't part of a breach of confidentiality between you and the moderators.

Anyway, this doesn't belong here. It is not a technical problem, and this is not something that need moderator's help. It belongs in "gameplay".

Anyway, this doesn't belong here. It is not a technical problem, and this is not something that need moderator's help. It belongs in "gameplay".
Agreed. iMove http://forums.jolt.co.uk/images/icons/icon2.gif "Gameplay".

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Pre-endorsing. If you resign from the UN and then rejoin it, even after moving regions, your old UN endorsements will be there until the update. If the endorsing nations are still existant, in the UN, and the same region, they'll remain.
Fascinating. I was not aware of this varient of pre-endorsing.

yeah, and you can thank myrth for letting the entire NS world know :rolleyes:

TH, normally, i don't have much trouble with you, but you don't have a clue about this situation, the techniques, and when or how we will use it.

Myrth,

I do desire the items filed by me with the mods to remain confidential, as they were filed with the expectation of confidentiality. The tactics used in this effort will probably be used again in a later event (not naming names here...) and I honestly do not appreciate a mod providing clues on our plans.

What happened is a method of liberation I came up with. I regard it part of the game for others to figure this out by themselves. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out, after all I came up with it without having an example in practice to study.

Ballotonia
It doesn't look like you're the first one to come up with this, and you're using it in what is clearly going to be the gameplay event of the month. You can't expect it to stay secret for long.
(btw, shouldn't it be "method of invasion" rather than "method of liberation", being as its not liberation specific?)

yeah, and you can thank myrth for letting the entire NS world know :rolleyes:

TH, normally, i don't have much trouble with you, but you don't have a clue about this situation, the techniques, and when or how we will use it.
CG, do the maths. An off-hand comment in a thread with 261 views (many of them likely to be the same person), and the biggest invasion in months involving at least 150 people on each side, followed by reporting by the news networks, which sucessfully uses this unusual strategy.

Which is going to make more people hear about it?

TH, normally, i don't have much trouble with you, but you don't have a clue about this situation, the techniques, and when or how we will use it.

CG, you obviously are hostile towards me, because I am right; Myrth didn't give anything away and you know it. Admin will rule this way, too, as we all can guess.

Everyone who's serious about this game understands the concept of pre-endorsing and using it in an invading/defending effort. You, and others like you, aren't the first to use or perfect it.

I was in the NP while GB was planning his take over with more than 15 puppets, gathering intell for various NS groups on-site and off-site, and while I won't release my sources or my puppets, I probably know a lot more than you think I know about what's going on there. I probably also know more about what the NPO and others are planning to now do in the Pacifics in general.

Defenders - in this game - have become so self-righteous, instead of just being humbled by their efforts, their ill will has become as hostile as the NPO and GB are accused of being in their times of rule.

Besides, read my posts, I never claimed to know about your plans. Techniques, maybe, plans, no.

TH, normally, i don't have much trouble with you, but you don't have a clue about this situation, the techniques, and when or how we will use it.

My point exactly. Nobody else does. So wherein lies the problem?

My point exactly. Nobody else does. So wherein lies the problem?

Exactly what everyone else in this thread has been pointing out.

Defenders - in this game - have become so self-righteous, instead of just being humbled by their efforts, their ill will has become as hostile as the NPO and GB are accused of being in their times of rule.
You've vocalised perfectly my problem with defenders.

Actually, its not an anti-defender thing, its a sorta anti-corporate thing (kinda funny given the book this is all based on). I can't stand the self-righteous, corporate nature of groups like the ADN. I'm not pro-invader, I'm just pro-enjoyment. I don't want to see an end to all invasions, the game wouldn't be any fun anymore. There'd be no-one to defend against, no-one to spy on, no noobs to laugh at... no kittens or sunshine.

Alright, mebe there'd still be kittens and sunshine. But otherwise there wouldn't be much point playing anymore.

Anyway [/evangelising]

OK... not that this is any of my business, but...

It's clear that these people want to use this technique again, very clear. Telegramming the plan to moderators to get it OK'd, only to have said moderators explaining it in Tech for anyone to read (after the fact or not) seems a little unfair to me.

Of course, it's important to get it established that this plan was executed legally, but that should be as far as it needs to go.

CG, you obviously are hostile towards me, because I am right; Myrth didn't give anything away and you know it. Admin will rule this way, too, as we all can guess.
From everything I read, cg wasn't being 'hostile' to anyone. I think she has a very fair point. Especially when it's obvious this is a tactic they want to use again.

After reading this post I have come to the conclusion that all the "invaders" and their sympathizers are worried for nothing because that is all that was revealed of their plans. They need to get a clue and quite arguing about it.

From everything I read, cg wasn't being 'hostile' to anyone. I think she has a very fair point. Especially when it's obvious this is a tactic they want to use again.

Obviously, she wants to use this tactic again. However, it was already a publically known tactic. There's no reason to make such a fuss over this, Myrth didn't reveal the codes to nuclear secrets, he revealed common knowledge for those deeply involved in the game.

CG, and other defenders, just don't want to see that; they want to be able to "defend" without interference.

Locking pending policy review.

We have discussed this incident and have come to the following conclusions:

No player holds a patent on any invasion technique and has no grounds for asking that a particular technique be kept secret, just as no players holds a patent on invasions themselves; nobody can prevent other players from applying the same tactics if we Moderators have declared the tactics legal. Just because Ballotonia developed a legal means of invading a region doesn't mean that he has sole onwership over that method. The legality of various invasion tactics is not priviledged information.

Additionally, Ballotonia wasn't the first player to figure out that this technique was theoretically possible, so even if patents were granted, Ballotonia would not have the strongest claim.

However, situation-specific information IS priviledged information. This includes: who is participating in a specific attack, who the specific target is, the specific time of attack, and (what applies here) the specific method of attack employed. Specific information about a specific attack should not be revealed by Moderators. If ordinary players can't find out situation-specific information on their own, then that is their problem.

Myrth revealed which method of attack was used to invade "The North Pacific". This constitutes a revelation of situation-specific information and was a breach of Moderator confidentiality. For this, we apologize to Ballotonia and his associates. Rather than reveal the method-of-attack used, the appropriate Moderator response should have been:
"We are aware of what happened in 'The North Pacific'. However, as there has been no glitch and no violations of the rules, any detailed information is priviledged and will not be revealed. For that reason, Juxtapositions, we cannot answer your question."
We have said, before, that if anyone wishes to inquire about the legality of their plan with us, then we will keep their plans and their request completely confidential. This policy has not changed. The breach of confidentiality that occured here was a mistake and should not have happened. We Moderators are only human (claims to the contrary notwithstanding) and we do make mistakes.

Once again, Ballotonia: We apologize for this breach.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

For the record, I did not intend to make any claim of 'patent' whatsoever.

Thank you for the clarification of policy.

Ballotonia

I salute the mods on maintaining their nuetrality of consultation!

Interesting as someone who was Privvy to the plan itself, I have to add in that the method used, is exploitation of a LoopHole, and flaw in the game code, and not only is it skirting the border of illegality, it is deep in the heart of Illegality (pop 4589) and selling Crack cocaine to little kids at the local school (Illegality P.S. 3).

Interesting as someone who was Privvy to the plan itself, I have to add in that the method used, is exploitation of a LoopHole, and flaw in the game code, and not only is it skirting the border of illegality, it is deep in the heart of Illegality (pop 4589) and selling Crack cocaine to little kids at the local school (Illegality P.S. 3).


i'd like to know how you were "privvy" to the plan..
and why you still asked me then how it works?

Interesting as someone who was Privvy to the plan itself, I have to add in that the method used, is exploitation of a LoopHole, and flaw in the game code, and not only is it skirting the border of illegality, it is deep in the heart of Illegality (pop 4589) and selling Crack cocaine to little kids at the local school (Illegality P.S. 3).
Since the method was declared legal by [violet], you are simply wrong.

Ballotonia

Interesting as someone who was Privvy to the plan itself, I have to add in that the method used, is exploitation of a LoopHole, and flaw in the game code, and not only is it skirting the border of illegality, it is deep in the heart of Illegality (pop 4589) and selling Crack cocaine to little kids at the local school (Illegality P.S. 3).


Uh.. I really didn't understand the bold part? Especially the P.S.3 and pop 4589?
And I won't even go into why extreme examples have with this discussion anyway.

(And if you were privy to the details of this.. "exploitation of a LoopHole, and flaw in the game code, and not only is it skirting the border of illegality, it is deep in the heart of Illegality (pop 4589) and selling Crack cocaine to little kids at the local school (Illegality P.S. 3).".... why didn't you try to stop the action... not that common laws apply here but If you know something and don't try to stop it you are as much as a criminal as the person who do it).

Interesting as someone who was Privvy to the plan itself, I have to add in that the method used, is exploitation of a LoopHole, and flaw in the game code, and not only is it skirting the border of illegality, it is deep in the heart of Illegality (pop 4589) and selling Crack cocaine to little kids at the local school (Illegality P.S. 3).

Under the precedent of 28 October 2003, it is in order to exploit loopholes in the game code provided that it is "relatively mild, non-destructive, and the mods haven't ruled against it".

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5445953&postcount=754

Under the precedent of 28 October 2003, it is in order to exploit loopholes in the game code provided that it is "relatively mild, non-destructive, and the mods haven't ruled against it".

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5445953&postcount=754

Evidently being able to hide your endorsements from everyone you're attacking until 4 minutes before the update is "relatively mild, non-destructive".
Myrth, sorry to get you in in trouble with the initial question. I was worried that there was some sort of glitch in the game that was being exploited. As I found out there is.

Evidently being able to hide your endorsements from everyone you're attacking until 4 minutes before the update is "relatively mild, non-destructive".

It's actually not that bad at all. The 4 minutes only goes for very large regions. For small regions there's no way to time it due to the random updates, and so an invader/liberator is left with getting in place at the beginning of the update sequence and waiting. Also, the participating army will stick out like a sore thumb. It just doesn't make sense to go through all this extra effort for small regions. For large regions, one needs a very large army as well. This means that the regular spy/counter-spy stuff will detect there's something happening and will alert the other side well in time of the actual attack. They'll just have to be alert to counter it, up their own endorsement level, etc... I'm sure that the NPO had to be aware of a very large and serious effort being underway, as they did make an effort to up Great Bight's endorsement level (the region New Sparrow boosted Great Bight's numbers, for instance, while there were quite a few others as well).

Also keep in mind that before regional controls allowed banning/ejecting, upping ones own endorsement level by obtaining support from others was the only way to stay on top. At least with this threat on the table, the one in charge will have to work at it a bit to stay in power. Not much, just a bit.

Ballotonia