NationStates Jolt Archive

the ADN just attempted to invade and conquor Italy.
Their operatives Praeztork, Currsniggit,and Italian Non Facist
are now gone, Ejected to the RR where they belong.


They all moved in approx 2 hours ago from the region the Golden Hills,
with the sole intent of seizing the delegacy from out democratically elected Delegate.


Regional Happenings

* 1 minute ago: The Holy Automobile of Deus ex Fiat updated the World Factbook entry.
* 3 minutes ago: The Republic of Italian Non Facist departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 3 minutes ago: The Holy Automobile of Deus ex Fiat ejected The Republic of Italian Non Facist from the region.
* 4 minutes ago: The Constitutional Monarchy of Praeztork departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 4 minutes ago: The Holy Automobile of Deus ex Fiat ejected The Constitutional Monarchy of Praeztork from the region.
* 4 minutes ago: The Armed Republic of Currsniggit departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 4 minutes ago: The Holy Automobile of Deus ex Fiat ejected The Armed Republic of Currsniggit from the region.

* 51 minutes ago: The Republic of Italian Non Facist replaced The Kingdom of Eternito as UN Delegate.


[* 2 hours ago: The Constitutional Monarchy of Praeztork arrived from The Golden Hills.]

For the record, I would like to state that to the best of my knowledge, neither Currsnigget nor Italian Non Fascist are ADN operatives. Praeztork is the puppet nation of an ADN member. I believe this is a case of a single ADN member acting with his friends, and it was certainly not planned or condoned by the higher-ups in the ADN.

Surely this ADN aggression will not go without public outcry!

Surely this ADN aggression will not go without public outcry!
Surely this ADN aggression will not go without public outcry!
Surely this ADN aggression will not go without public outcry!
Hacing troubles Mammothistan? :P :D

Anyway, to my knowledge, this was not an authorized ADN mission even if those 2 nations were ADN members. I'm involved with the military and have authorization to send nations on missions and such, but this is the first I've heard of it.

-Hrmmm

Surely this ADN aggression will not go without public outcry!

Interesting coming from you. It will be hard to forget that comment...

In any case, BC and Hrmmm are correct. This was in no way an ADN action, and an investigation into these allegations is under way.

If any citizen of Italy (particularly Deus Ex Fiat) would like to assist in the investigation or tell your side of the story, I extend an invitation to a neutral discussion chamber on our forum:

http://s3.invisionfree.com/ADN/index.php

If you feel more comfortable, you can TG the evidence directly to me. If an ADN member is found to have participated in this action (attacking a region with which we have no state of war), they will be held accountable.

But once again, the ADN does not attack regions. If anyone has question of this, you are welcome to contact me or come see for yourself by registering on our forums. The public part expands each day, and visiting diplomats (and even skeptics) are most welcome.

High Queen Pope Hope IV
Director of the Alliance Defense Network

not trying to be argumentative here but,
you got an admitaded ADN operative up there listed, looks pretty solid as far as evidence, and I figure Fiat would post more if he felt like talking about it.

also, Fiat if you decide to visit their forums be warned the ADN shares IP addresses and will Publish yours if they think they can use it.

That "operative" has been operating under a puppet nation, if it is indeed the ADN member who has been named. We're holding our own investigation, and will follow our own (non-invader) guidelines in prosecuting the individual if these allegations prove to be true.

Loop, we do not and have never "published" IP addresses. The leaders of the site run frequent checks, upped since we had at least one of the "hackers" registered on our board, and some of those leaders own their own forums as well. The information is kept between those who have access to the IPs and has never gone further than that. I seriously wonder where you get your information sometimes. It is our tech security that allowed us to help identify a couple of the "hackers," as a matter of fact.

After one showed up and sent me a menacing PM, that is. :evil:

In any case the subject is Italy, and the invitation stands. Your warning is unnecessary, as I clearly offered TGing me as an alternative to those uncomfortable visiting our boards.

No Need to worry about that. I dont visit offsite NS forums.
The ADN can make their apologies or accusations here and we can discuss the siruation here.

I am concerned that this came shortly after our protectors disbanded.

The Constitutional Monarchy of Praeztork
Received: 6 minutes ago
We did not attempt to take over region and yea im in the ADN but I am not working with them on this one. I was not taking over your region I was doing a military drill and it was not for the ADN. so how dare you accuse the ADN . Take that off your world factbook.

not trying to be argumentative here but,
you got an admitaded ADN operative up there listed, looks pretty solid as far as evidence, and I figure Fiat would post more if he felt like talking about it.
It's evidence that an ADN member acted. We can not and will not deny that. However, this situation is being looked into, with a possiblity of disciplinary action being handed down to the member who participated.

There is no further need for accusations here, and certainly no need for appologies from the ADN as a whole. If Praeztork wants to appologize for creating the situation, he can do that on his own, because apparently he enjoys acting outside of the ADN :lol:

Loop, the bit about the IP address is bullocks. During my time in the ADN, I have only been shown 2 IP addresses, and those were so that I could keep a known hacker off my forum. If PH does not show it to me, I can assure you that she will not be publishing it openly.

Greets,

I am the ADN Head Investigator for this event. I will be investigating allproblems here and if charges are need, they will be drawn up.

Thank you,

Emperor Reich Rotc
The Supreme Imperial Empire of Reich ROTC
ADN CO-Director of Internal Affairs

The charges are up above in my first post and my most recent.

Your operatives entered Italy at approxomatly 3 AM EST and seized the Delegacy from our locally elected Delegate. Had I had Delegate access to regional controls on, and not happened to log in, you would surely see Italy under command of an ADN founder rather than myself at noon.

And Loop, I knew about the allegations of ADN sharing IP addressses for purposes of intellegence gathering that is part of why I never visit offsite forums. I didnt even visit the AA forums during the whole 6 months that they were our protectors.
And to the ADN, denying sharing of IP's is more damaging than flat out admiting it. If you feel you need to do that to track people then more power to you. Just don't count on getting Italy to change its stance on you or your policies. Perhaps one day I will make a Italian forum for Italy, perhaps not.

Inoltré Ciao.

Loop, the bit about the IP address is bullocks. During my time in the ADN, I have only been shown 2 IP addresses, and those were so that I could keep a known hacker off my forum. If PH does not show it to me, I can assure you that she will not be publishing it openly.

Hey I wouldnt have said it if I didnt Know it to be true.
perhaps you are not high enough rank to be fully in on the IP sharing?
Anywho, please dont try to resteer thsi topic to LoopSmear, this topic is about your groups illicit activities.

If it wasn't for my own concerns I would post the region I own that the ADN invaded a while back. Perhaps when I scale back my NS activities when a certain thing happens (not NS related mind you), I will reveal my puppets and puppet regions.

Ok the forum just resynced and burreid this topic so I am bumping it as it is pertinant

Your operatives entered Italy at approxomatly 3 AM EST and seized the Delegacy from our locally elected Delegate.
Three nations did move at approximately that time and did seize the delegacy. Only one of them is associated with the ADN, and to call him our operative is nonsensical, as he was under no orders from us and, actually, may be charged in court for invading Italy. Furthermore, Praeztork is a puppet nation that has never acted with the ADN, it is an FA nation only, and the owner uses a different puppet for ADN activities.

Had I had Delegate access to regional controls on, and not happened to log in, you would surely see Italy under command of an ADN founder rather than myself at noon.
I can not speak for Praeztork and the Freedom Alliance and tell you what they would've done had they been able to access regional control, but I can tell you that the ADN has never seized and re-founded a region, and since there were no ADN nations in Italy, and Praeztork had no orders from the ADN, that any re-founding would have in no way been an ADN influence.

And to the ADN, denying sharing of IP's is more damaging than flat out admiting it. If you feel you need to do that to track people then more power to you. Just don't count on getting Italy to change its stance on you or your policies. Perhaps one day I will make a Italian forum for Italy, perhaps not.
We never denied that our Admins share IPs. We keep this discussion among those who have access to them. "Publish" would imply public display and/or sale, and to say the ADN does this would be a complete untruth.

Hey I wouldnt have said it if I didnt Know it to be true.
perhaps you are not high enough rank to be fully in on the IP sharing?
Anywho, please dont try to resteer thsi topic to LoopSmear, this topic is about your groups illicit activities.
I'm not attempting to smear you, only reveal that your smears of us are false. When I address something as "bullocks" or "a lie" I assume you to be misinformed rather than in any way dishonest. Once again, there is a difference between talk between those who have access to IPs and your original accusation of "publishing". Sharing yes. Publishing no.

If it wasn't for my own concerns I would post the region I own that the ADN invaded a while back. Perhaps when I scale back my NS activities when a certain thing happens (not NS related mind you), I will reveal my puppets and puppet regions.

edit: appologies for the double-post.
Why didn't your puppet who owns the region bring it up when it first happened, if it did indeed happen?

Cavemans, I have recieved a list of IP's and puppet nations with a request that I scan the EP for the IP's and add any nations not already appearing on the list or confirm those on the list. This Telegram was credited to ADN security.
And before you can say it, No I recieved these before I took notice of the ADN and No I did not comply with the telegram.

Also, I like how you are trying to swing Italy into the "Agressor Role" and the ADN into the" Victim Role", nice spin attempt there.
Remember Everyone, Italy is the Victim here of attack.

Hey I wouldnt have said it if I didnt Know it to be true.
perhaps you are not high enough rank to be fully in on the IP sharing?
Anywho, please dont try to resteer thsi topic to LoopSmear, this topic is about your groups illicit activities.
I'm not attempting to smear you, only reveal that your smears of us are false. When I address something as "bullocks" or "a lie" I assume you to be misinformed rather than in any way dishonest. Once again, there is a difference between talk between those who have access to IPs and your original accusation of "publishing". Sharing yes. Publishing no.

Same Difference. they were "Published" among your group. erego the use of Publish rather than share.

]If it wasn't for my own concerns I would post the region I own that the ADN invaded a while back. Perhaps when I scale back my NS activities when a certain thing happens (not NS related mind you), I will reveal my puppets and puppet regions.

edit: appologies for the double-post.
Why didn't your puppet who owns the region bring it up when it first happened, if it did indeed happen?

I did. It got ignored.

as for the double posing lol, it has happened to me thrice today here lol.

Brachycardian Cavemen, are you even part of Reich ROTC's investigation team or are you just trying to rabblerouse and discredite evidence?
If you are not part of it you really should just silence yourself before your
own group has to act and excommunicate you.

I say this because, Attempting to discredit valid proof or sympathetic witnesses / allies of the victim is a sign of Guilt.

Current locations of guilty parties.

Cursnigget : you will respect my athorita by way of, Japanada by way of Pacific by way of, the RR.

Praeztork : Central Intelligence Agency by way of, the RR

Italian Non Facist (the one assinged as Delegate) : still in the RR.

I have additional concerns obout these nations as well.


also this was in CIA

41 minutes ago The Free Platonic Democracy of Gothicville Indeed I have telegramed Reich Rotc about the matter. CIA was not involved it was me and just me and 2 others. We were doind a drill and I have told the founder of Italy it was not ADN.


I dont believe it yet.

Current locations of guilty parties.

Cursnigget : you will respect my athorita by way of, Japanada by way of Pacific by way of, the RR.

Praeztork : Central Intelligence Agency by way of, the RR

Italian Non Facist (the one assinged as Delegate) : still in the RR.

I have additional concerns obout these nations as well.


also this was in CIA

41 minutes ago The Free Platonic Democracy of Gothicville Indeed I have telegramed Reich Rotc about the matter. CIA was not involved it was me and just me and 2 others. We were doind a drill and I have told the founder of Italy it was not ADN.


I dont believe it yet.

Brachycardian Cavemen, are you even part of Reich ROTC's investigation team or are you just trying to rabblerouse and discredite evidence?
If we are putting up a barrier on who should be able to post about this incident, why doesn't Loop leave? He is in no way associated with the ADN as he has insinuated before. And to my knowledge he is not associated with Italy at all.

About the IPs... The Tech Security board on the ADN forum contains the IPs of those considered suspicious, or those who are known hackers, or in the case of the "war" between invaders and defenders, spies. Thos with access are those with access to a forums admin account, and can check IPs. They have been useful in identifying many spies from other organizations, and I have found some on the Freedom Fighters' forum. These IPs, are obviously not publicized since no one here knows what actually goes on there, unless they have access. And if you look at the word publicize, it actually has "public" in it. Meaning that stuff like this is public knowledge. Since you brought it up, its obviously not. So relax about the IP situation.

About the ADN investigation, I'm going to stay out of it other than what I said earlier. One out of the three 'invaders'is a puppet of an ADN member. He has stated that he has worked on his own with these other two mystery nations, and is facing punishment by the ADN. Enough said.

He is still a member though, and I know several times when people who were not on an invasion or were doing a freelance help were harassed by ADN members simply because they were part of an invader group,

If Fiat wants me to leave this thread alone then I will.

loop (and others),
one player (who is a member in the adn with another nation) played a role in this invasion, of which the ADN didn't even know it would happen.
the ADN itself had no part in this, didn't know anything about it, till we saw this topic, they are investigating what has happenend.
now please stop spreading lies and throwing around false accusations.
thank you.

the ADN itself had no part in this
Correction, they will be involved in the investigation and eventually the trial of the nation in question. But they did have no part in the organization, or the carry out of this operation.

And please, only give factual information, something you can back up with evidence rather than an opinion or observation.

Thanky :D

i was talking bout the invasion itself :P

*smacks Hrmmm on the head with a bag of hamsterfood*

It wasn't me, it was my puppet. I have no control over it. Really. Why would I lie?

:roll:

My Sister used my puppet and Im not responsible please punish her instead.

It doesnt matter if hte perpetrator is a puppt of a person who is an ADN member or not, the Player behind it is a member therefore it is an ADN activity,

if 2 Loop started doing something naughty then it would be still me 1 Loop regardless.

Loopy, do you even read what the ADN has to say in this thread?

The player's actions WERE NOT sanctioned by the ADN. That means the ADN WAS NOT behind this action. Really, it couldn't be simpler.

one player (who is a member in the adn with another nation) played a role in this invasion, of which the ADN didn't even know it would happen.
the ADN itself had no part in this, didn't know anything about it, till we saw this topic, they are investigating what has happenend.
It seems you forgot to read this post Loop. Please be more careful in the future.

one player (who is a member in the adn with another nation) played a role in this invasion

This is the part that I read. What about you Loop?

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Lets look at a real world situation

that little Marines base in Okinawa, two marines go out and rape a little Japanese girl,
Ok they were not on Marines official duty nor were they under orders to do what they did,
But they still did a nasty act, and were held accountable as Marines and the Marine Corps had to answer for it.

I apply these same types of accountability rules to you guys as well.
Accountability.

But those same marines are not going unpunished. Just like in this situation.

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Lets look at a real world situation

that little Marines base in Okinawa, two marines go out and rape a little Japanese girl,
Ok they were not on Marines official duty nor were they under orders to do what they did,
But they still did a nasty act, and were held accountable as Marines and the Marine Corps had to answer for it.

I apply these same types of accountability rules to you guys as well.
Accountability.

Loop,

Did you really mean to draw an anology between the real life rape of the victim in Okinawa, and Praeztork's actions in this game? If so, perhaps you could explain it more thoroughly for me.

Thanks,
Penngrove

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Loop,

By your logic, any organization that has a member do anything wrong, is vicariously liable for the actions of that member, regardless of whether the organization had any possibility of knowledge or control. Since you used the U.S. military above, I propose the following hypothetical: an off duty soldier robs a gas station; is it your opinion that the U.S. military is responsible for that soldier's actions?

-Penngrove

Indeed there was one FA nation in Italy, residing there. The nation in question was indeed in the UN and did not request any ADN assistance. The other two nations mentioned are not part of the Freedom Alliance and I will not take responsibility for their actions.

The FA nation gained the delegateship having no other FA nation in Italy. Therefore, FA involvment in this investigation will end at this point. However we will do whatever possible to ensure that the investigation is informative to the founder of Italy.

Musez/Spaceisland
FA President.

as for the acountability thing, Yes, that soldier has disgraced the uniform and goodname of the US army.

if you dont like the Okinawa reference, then how about the off duty cop who beats up the Black guy, you trying to tell me that the community isnt gonna backlash the entire Police department over that?

"Oh he was off duty, he can beat up anyone he wants."

No, the community is gonna go haywire, and since the ADN likes to think of themself as a Military defene organization or even the Worlds Police force, if we cannot hold them to higher principals then we cannot trust the to provide defence.

I cite in a way a recent Mod ruling.

Ok say Jimmy the Invader has a puppet sitting in 000000000000000dont invade us we are n00bs
well after that puppet has been there for 6 months, he and his pack decide to invade it, well, according to ruling, since the puppet is Jimmy the invaders it is not a native as it is owned by a invader and when you ADN types move in you are allowed to freely ban him, with no apoligy.

Wellllll with that being so , and all things being Equal, as many have said,
the ADN is guilty by association since a member has performed an invasion. See my previous post about Accountability.
If youare gonna recruit folks you really need to make sure they are honotable enough to stay loyal and follow orders.

and
"Thats all I got to say 'bout that."
F. Gump

Life is like a box of chocolates, so keep those nasty coconut ones away from me.

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Loop,

By your logic, any organization that has a member do anything wrong, is vicariously liable for the actions of that member, regardless of whether the organization had any possibility of knowledge or control. Since you used the U.S. military above, I propose the following hypothetical: an off duty soldier robs a gas station; is it your opinion that the U.S. military is responsible for that soldier's actions?

-Penngrove
Yes.
That soldier is durning his time as a soldier Owned by the US Army.
If they could not properly train him then they are at fault.
As I understood the ADN was a Army of sorts yet you cannot install proper discipline into your people.
The person claiming to be guilty for planning this has been telegraming me and hopping into and out of Italy Spaming us about the ADN innocence, if He cannot post here then he will be ignored.
I do appreciate the ADN's apparent cooperation in remedying this problem.
A Problem I consider an act of Interregional War.

The U.S. military is also responsible for court-martialing soldiers who violate rules of conduct.

Life is like a box of chocolates, so keep those nasty coconut ones away from me.

I'll take em.

I saw the part about interregional War, interesting idea, if only there were a way to impliment it.

although Invasion is pretty much the closest thing we have.

I initially posted this in Gameplay because I viewed the invasion as a Gameplay related matter however as I see certain parties are attempting to escalate it into a flamewar.

Moderators please see my Getting Help submission for more details.

I initially posted this in Gameplay because I viewed the invasion as a Gameplay related matter however as I see certain parties are attempting to escalate it into a flamewar.

Moderators please see my Getting Help submission for more details.

Unless they did something against game rules, your submission will be ignored. We don't care what "alliance" does what, as long as they don't break the rules of the game.

We are not here to enforce your charters, rules, or regulations.

He is probably taling about the same thing I submitted a report about.
Which I figure is probably being sumararily ignored.
The inappropriate language used recently on his regional board.


We are not here to enforce your charters, rules, or regulations.

You are here to enforce the TOS though. And what I saw looks like a bit of flambaiting and possibly Obscenity.

I think the if this was an ADN operatives thing then it must of been done by nations in the ADN, not as an ADN activity, the ADN is for defence(i think...). They are trustworthy in my eyes(i dont often post in this forum, so dont expect me to return :D )

Brachycardian Cavemen, are you even part of Reich ROTC's investigation team.


I am the second member of Reich ROTC's investigation team........

I initially posted this in Gameplay because I viewed the invasion as a Gameplay related matter however as I see certain parties are attempting to escalate it into a flamewar.

Moderators please see my Getting Help submission for more details.

Unless they did something against game rules, your submission will be ignored. We don't care what "alliance" does what, as long as they don't break the rules of the game.

We are not here to enforce your charters, rules, or regulations.

I do hope that that statement isn't because you are a Member of the ADN.

We don't care what "alliance" does what, as long as they don't break the rules of the game.


I do hope that that statement isn't because you are a Member of the ADN.

Are you on crack?

Is it against the rules of the game for ADN to stage a legal invasion? No. Why on Earth should I care if ADN stages a legal invasion?

Are you honestly proposing that the Mods enforce the charter rules of player created organizations? If you are, you need to take another look at why we're here, and what our duties are. ADN is responsible for making sure their members follow their rules, not the Mods. The only rules we care about are the game rules. Not yours, not ADN's, not The Pacific Army, not The Rejected Realms Army, not Fark's, etc.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know which groups are active, and which aren't. I don't know the members, and I don't know their rules. And you know what? I couldn't care less. A nation's membership isn't coded into the game, and has no affect on my actions as a Game Moderator. If a nation, or a series of nations, break the game rules, they're punished. If a "defender group" member stages an invasion, why should I care? That means as much to me as what the current temperature on Pluto is.

Maybe to avoid the appearance of a conflict of intrest, mods that are in the ADN should refrain from making judgements that are related to that group.

Maybe to avoid the appearance of a conflict of intrest, mods that are in the ADN should refrain from making judgements that are related to that group.

As far as I know, there are no Game Moderators in any invasion/defender group at all.

First of all I dont think you should enforce any alliane rules I think what is trying to be said it Lately it seems a lot of Mod calls are being made In the ADN's favor, such as in United States, the Convinient temporary Deletion of Architeuthis who had been holding off against the adn invasion but he had to be deleted to give them the oportunity to take it. there are other things that happened in that invasion but I dont feel like typing all day, and the invasion rules seem to have been written up till now to support making the adn job of defense easier for them.
As for mod membership in the ADN, According to the information I have been given the ADN claims three mods as members, one blatant a Forum mod, TG has admitteded in this very thred I think. and two game mods, one of which they claim is you Hack, they list your rank in the email I was send as Special Intellegence Agent. or some thing.
This is backed up by the fact that during the United States thing I seem to recall someone telling the French that they shluld just give up because "we [the ADN] have two game mods on out side there is no way you can win."

If youare not a ADN member then I will definitly get on the agent who gave this intel to me, if you are, well A mod should be put on a higher ground and should stay out of inter regional or inter alliance politics.
This being said, there really should be a invader promoted to the ranks of mod, that way thier side can be represented.

Loop, Caek GET!!11

Tactical Grace is a member of the ADN but never posts as MTGN Minister of War and as Forum Mod at the same time. Also, he has no power to help or stop invasions. So your point is moot.

As for Hack, he is most definitely NOT a member of the ADN. We have NO Game Moderators as members, as Hack just stated.

I will go back to the accountability thing, an organization is not responsable for the actions taken by it's members when not sactioned by the organization. It's like saying, that if a catholic steals a peice of bread that they should sue the pope, it just boggles the mind.

The ADN did not sanction this, neither did the FA, nor any other organization as far as I'm aware of. They are not responsable for these actions therefore.

Now that we have that out of the way let's let some calmer heads bring the actual charges against the offender to bear so they may be argued.

the ADN just attempted to invade and conquor Italy.
Their operatives Praeztork, Currsniggit,and Italian Non Facist
are now gone, Ejected to the RR where they belong.


They all moved in approx 2 hours ago from the region the Golden Hills,
with the sole intent of seizing the delegacy from out democratically elected Delegate.


even though Praeztork moved from my region, I/TGH had nothing to do with the invasion(which may be easy to tell since TGH is a fairly dead region, just starting to come back to life ;) )

the Convinient temporary Deletion of Architeuthis

That was an error on my part, and I apologised to Architeuthis personally.

who had been holding off against the adn invasion but he had to be deleted to give them the oportunity to take it.

No, he was deleted because I thought he was acting in an illegal manner. I didn't even know ADN was involved in that until now.

As for mod membership in the ADN, According to the information I have been given the ADN claims three mods as members, one blatant a Forum mod, TG

That's why I specifically said Game Mod.

and two game mods, one of which they claim is you Hack, they list your rank in the email I was send as Special Intellegence Agent. or some thing.

I am NOT a member of ADN or any other invader and/or defender group. Never have been, never will be. Any person claiming otherwise is lying. Again, as far as I know, no other GMs are members of any group either.

This is backed up by the fact that during the United States thing I seem to recall someone telling the French that they shluld just give up because "we [the ADN] have two game mods on out side there is no way you can win."

More lies. GM membership in any group is a massive conflict of interest.

if you dont like the Okinawa reference, then how about the off duty cop who beats up the Black guy, you trying to tell me that the community isnt gonna backlash the entire Police department over that?

"Oh he was off duty, he can beat up anyone he wants."

No, the community is gonna go haywire, and since the ADN likes to think of themself as a Military defene organization or even the Worlds Police force, if we cannot hold them to higher principals then we cannot trust the to provide defence.

It shouldn't matter who the off duty police officer beats up, although I'm guessing your hypothetical assumes that the off duty police officer is white just to bring a little racial tension into it. It is unclear to me whether the off duty police officer in your hypothetical is representing himself to be a police officer during the course of the beating. I will assume that you meant to try and draw up a hypothetical as closely analogous to this situation as possible, since Praeztork did not represent himself as ADN in any way.

As such, an off duty police officer who beats an individual without any justification would be acting outside the scope of his or her employment. He would be personally criminally liable, and would most likely face some severe employee discipline, such as being fired. The beaten individual would not, however, be able to recover any damages from the police department or the municipality due to the fact that the officer was acting outside the scope of his or her employment. The community might lash out against the police department, but in my experience in real life, in such situations the vast majority of people are able to draw the distinction between the actions of an individual on his or her own, and the actions of an individual on behalf of an organization.

Wellllll with that being so , and all things being Equal, as many have said,
the ADN is guilty by association since a member has performed an invasion. See my previous post about Accountability.
If youare gonna recruit folks you really need to make sure they are honotable enough to stay loyal and follow orders.

Well Loop, again following your logic here, and that in your previous post "about Accountability," any nation from the East Pacific that engages in untoward activity in NS is the responsibility of the East Pacific, and you personally being the delegate. Guilt by association and all, you know?

Notwithstanding anything else, the responsible nation from the ADN will be facing discipline, much like your off duty police officer would. The ADN cannot, however, help it if there are a small number of vocal nations that cannot distinguish between an individual nation acting alone, and a nation acting on behalf of the ADN.

Regards,
Penngrove

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Loop,

By your logic, any organization that has a member do anything wrong, is vicariously liable for the actions of that member, regardless of whether the organization had any possibility of knowledge or control. Since you used the U.S. military above, I propose the following hypothetical: an off duty soldier robs a gas station; is it your opinion that the U.S. military is responsible for that soldier's actions?

-Penngrove
Yes.
That soldier is durning his time as a soldier Owned by the US Army.
If they could not properly train him then they are at fault.
As I understood the ADN was a Army of sorts yet you cannot install proper discipline into your people.

A soldier is not owned by the U.S. Army. A soldier is employed by the U.S. Army. The U.S. Army is not liable for acts commited outside of that soldier's scope of employment. See, e.g., Bennett v. U.S., 102 F.3d 486, 489-90 (11th Cir. 1996). Thus, even where a soldier leaves base in violation of restricted status and rapes an individual, the United States will not be liable for the soldier's actions under the Federal Tort Claims Act. See, Malone v. U.S., 61 F.Supp.2d 1372, 1377-78 (S.D. Ga. 1999).

Regards,
Penngrove

Stating US law is worthless in the NS universe. The policy that's been standard in NS is guilt by association.

How is stating US law worthless when the arguments brought up against us were drawing a parellel with the US army?

It's not at all useless, Penngrove's reply covered everything quite neatly.

He was using it as an analogy, not siting it as an example. As has been pointed out many times by [violet] and the mods, American law (including the UCMJ) aren't the rules that are necessarily followed in the NS world.

He was using it as an analogy, not siting it as an example. As has been pointed out many times by [violet] and the mods, American law (including the UCMJ) aren't the rules that are necessarily followed in the NS world.

I'm not sure who the "[h]e" is that you are referring to, but I will assume that it is Deus ex Fiat since your previous post referenced US law, and that was part of the colloquy I was having with Deus. You assert that Deus was using American law as an analogy. If by analogy you mean a statement of fact then I will agree with you. Deus claimed that American soldiers are owned by the U.S. military in support of his argument for vicarious liability. I provided a specific refutation for such an assertion.

It would serve you well to remember that Loop was the one who raised RL analogies in this thread. I have merely tried to point out the flaws in such analogies. If you read my posts carefully, you will note that nowhere do I claim that U.S. law, or any other RL law, is applicable in the NS world. But you seem to have missed the point of my posts. I encourage you to read them again, specifically in the context of the posts of Deus and Loop, to which they were responsive.

Eagerly waiting a response,
Penngrove

How is stating US law worthless when the arguments brought up against us were drawing a parellel with the US army?

It's not at all useless, Penngrove's reply covered everything quite neatly.

Well wehn you try to submit a proposal to the UN citing real life laws or situations or people, they are shot down by Mr Enodia.
Therefore Real life laws have no bearing on NS play.
(admitidly yes some do such as hacking ect but we are talking about ones liek is cited a few posts above)
And in NS the usual rule is as Nothingg said, Guilt by Association.

And I cite examples of how folk react to stuff just because someone out there is spinning this into a "Oh poor ADN the Dirty Italians are persecuting you soo!" doesnt mean some of us dont see through the fancy mirrors and smoke.

Reich is looking into the matter and that is why I havnt said much lately, I figure I will give him the benefit of the doubt that justice will be done.
that and I have my informants to rely on.

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Loop,

By your logic, any organization that has a member do anything wrong, is vicariously liable for the actions of that member, regardless of whether the organization had any possibility of knowledge or control. Since you used the U.S. military above, I propose the following hypothetical: an off duty soldier robs a gas station; is it your opinion that the U.S. military is responsible for that soldier's actions?

-Penngrove
Yes.
That soldier is durning his time as a soldier Owned by the US Army.
If they could not properly train him then they are at fault.
As I understood the ADN was a Army of sorts yet you cannot install proper discipline into your people.

A soldier is not owned by the U.S. Army. A soldier is employed by the U.S. Army. The U.S. Army is not liable for acts commited outside of that soldier's scope of employment. See, e.g., Bennett v. U.S., 102 F.3d 486, 489-90 (11th Cir. 1996). Thus, even where a soldier leaves base in violation of restricted status and rapes an individual, the United States will not be liable for the soldier's actions under the Federal Tort Claims Act. See, Malone v. U.S., 61 F.Supp.2d 1372, 1377-78 (S.D. Ga. 1999).

Regards,
Penngrove

Looks like citing of US law to me.
(I apoligise for the size, just wanted to make sure what I was quoting got through clearly)

Also as is quoted by several relations and friends of mine in the US Military, they were informed upon joining and started Basic.
"You are Property of the US government, I will tell you when to shoot,
*Defecate*, sleep and breathe, , , Ect"
that is where I got that from.

I was refering to Loops posts about the Marine and the cop. It had nothing to do with law, and everything to do with accountability. No you can't send the entire Marine Corp to jail for the actions of one bad apple, but this actions still reflect poorly on the entire organization and also have a negative effect on its standing with the general public.

I'll back Loops ownership statement up with first hand experiance.


Fly Navy!

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Loop,

By your logic, any organization that has a member do anything wrong, is vicariously liable for the actions of that member, regardless of whether the organization had any possibility of knowledge or control. Since you used the U.S. military above, I propose the following hypothetical: an off duty soldier robs a gas station; is it your opinion that the U.S. military is responsible for that soldier's actions?

-Penngrove
Yes.
That soldier is durning his time as a soldier Owned by the US Army.
If they could not properly train him then they are at fault.
As I understood the ADN was a Army of sorts yet you cannot install proper discipline into your people.

A soldier is not owned by the U.S. Army. A soldier is employed by the U.S. Army. The U.S. Army is not liable for acts commited outside of that soldier's scope of employment. See, e.g., Bennett v. U.S., 102 F.3d 486, 489-90 (11th Cir. 1996). Thus, even where a soldier leaves base in violation of restricted status and rapes an individual, the United States will not be liable for the soldier's actions under the Federal Tort Claims Act. See, Malone v. U.S., 61 F.Supp.2d 1372, 1377-78 (S.D. Ga. 1999).

Regards,
Penngrove

Looks like citing of US law to me.
(I apoligise for the size, just wanted to make sure what I was quoting got through clearly)

Also as is quoted by several relations and friends of mine in the US Military, they were informed upon joining and started Basic.
"You are Property of the US government, I will tell you when to shoot,
*Defecate*, sleep and breathe, , , Ect"
that is where I got that from.

Loop,

Indeed I did cite U.S. law, and your point is what, other than stating the obvious? If you read carefully and focus on the colloquy, you will realize that:

1) first you posted a question related to the real life rape of an Okinawan girl by U.S. Marines

2)I challenged you to explain how it was analogous to this situation, and also posted a hypothetical (defined by the OED as "Involving or of the nature of hypothesis; conjectural") regarding the accountability (defined by the OED as "liability to give account of, and answer for") of a the U.S. Army for the actions of a soldier outside the scope of his employment;

3) you did not respond to my question as to how the Okinawa rape was analogous, but did respond that the soldier had disgraced the name and uniform of the U.S. Army, and that therefore (apparently) the U.S. Army was liable;

4) Deus ex Fiat replied that the U.S. Army owned the soldier (also apparently implying liability);

5) I replied to Deus ex Fiat, with specific case cites showing that in fact a soldier is not owned by the U.S. Army;

6) Nothingg, and now you, responded by saying RL law does not apply in NS.

Both you and Nothingg seem to totally miss the point that we weren't talking about whether RL law applies in NS. We were, and are, engaged in a colloquy regarding analogs to RL, which you yourself started. You, Nothingg and Deus have made assertions about RL situations which I have provided specific refutations for. None of you has actually addressed my argument in any meaningful way. Instead your fall back position is a mere "RL laws don't apply to NS." Moreover, your anecdotal stories about being told by the U.S. miltary that they own you, seems to mistake the indoctrination of a soldier with statements of legal liability. I would think that most people could distinguish between the exhortations of a drill sergeant, and that of a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals as to the liability of the U.S. government for a soldier's actions outside the scope of his or her employment. I would also note, Loop, that you did not respond at all to my post regarding your assaultive police officer.

Finally, as to your collective argument that "guilt by association" is the accepted standard, I would ask at a minimum to back up such a bald faced assertion with some sort of citation. Show me a mod ruling, or some other equivalent authority for your position. Since you like to bring up RL analogies, you might want to think about some real life examples of "guilt by association." If you are having trouble, let me know, I'll be happy to give you some.

Regards,
Penngrove

I agree with Nothingg, the Player who is an ADN member was part of it,
therefore the ADN is part of it,

Loop,

By your logic, any organization that has a member do anything wrong, is vicariously liable for the actions of that member, regardless of whether the organization had any possibility of knowledge or control. Since you used the U.S. military above, I propose the following hypothetical: an off duty soldier robs a gas station; is it your opinion that the U.S. military is responsible for that soldier's actions?

-Penngrove
Yes.
That soldier is durning his time as a soldier Owned by the US Army.
If they could not properly train him then they are at fault.
As I understood the ADN was a Army of sorts yet you cannot install proper discipline into your people.

A soldier is not owned by the U.S. Army. A soldier is employed by the U.S. Army. The U.S. Army is not liable for acts commited outside of that soldier's scope of employment. See, e.g., Bennett v. U.S., 102 F.3d 486, 489-90 (11th Cir. 1996). Thus, even where a soldier leaves base in violation of restricted status and rapes an individual, the United States will not be liable for the soldier's actions under the Federal Tort Claims Act. See, Malone v. U.S., 61 F.Supp.2d 1372, 1377-78 (S.D. Ga. 1999).

Regards,
Penngrove

Looks like citing of US law to me.
(I apoligise for the size, just wanted to make sure what I was quoting got through clearly)

Also as is quoted by several relations and friends of mine in the US Military, they were informed upon joining and started Basic.
"You are Property of the US government, I will tell you when to shoot,
*Defecate*, sleep and breathe, , , Ect"
that is where I got that from.

Loop,

Indeed I did cite U.S. law, and your point is what, other than stating the obvious? If you read carefully and focus on the colloquy, you will realize that:

1) first you posted a question related to the real life rape of an Okinawan girl by U.S. Marines

2)I challenged you to explain how it was analogous to this situation, and also posted a hypothetical (defined by the OED as "Involving or of the nature of hypothesis; conjectural") regarding the accountability (defined by the OED as "liability to give account of, and answer for") of a the U.S. Army for the actions of a soldier outside the scope of his employment;

3) you did not respond to my question as to how the Okinawa rape was analogous, but did respond that the soldier had disgraced the name and uniform of the U.S. Army, and that therefore (apparently) the U.S. Army was liable;

If you will remember I think I said that the Marines did not tell the dudes to rape the girl, but the marines still had to face up to the crime and as I recall the family of the girl sued the USMC and won a compensation of X ¥.


4) Deus ex Fiat replied that the U.S. Army owned the soldier (also apparently implying liability);

5) I replied to Deus ex Fiat, with specific case cites showing that in fact a soldier is not owned by the U.S. Army;

6) Nothingg, and now you, responded by saying RL law does not apply in NS.

Both you and Nothingg seem to totally miss the point that we weren't talking about whether RL law applies in NS. We were, and have been engaged in a colloquy regarding analogs to RL, which you yourself started. You, Nothingg and Deus have made assertions about RL situations which I have provided specific refutations for. None of you has actually addressed my argument in any meaningful way. Instead your fall back position is a mere "RL laws don't apply to NS." Moreover, your anecdotal stories about being told by the U.S. miltary that they own you, seems to mistake the indoctrination pf a soldier with statements of legal liability. I would think that most people could distinguish between the exhortations of a drill sergeant, and that of a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals as to the liability of the U.S. government for a soldier's actions outside the scope of his or her employment. I would also note, Loop, that you did not respond at all to my post regarding your assaultive police officer.

I probably didnt notice it, as Istayed away from this topic for a bit.


Finally, as to your collective argument that "guilt by association" is the accepted standard, I would ask at a minimum to back up such a bald faced assertion with some sort of citation. Show me a mod ruling, or some other equivalent authority for your position. Since you like to bring up RL analogies, you might want to think about some real life examples of "guilt by association." If you are having trouble, let me know, I'll be happy to give you some.

Regards,
Penngrove

the invasions of Atheist Empire, and United States.
AE, the natives started Griefing and the mods expelled the legit invaders en masse regardless of what they did, Guilty by association with other invaders

United States, YOUR ADN ruled that they were expelling ANYONE WHO ENDORSED the invaders, Quote "They are guilty by association."
this was backed up by the mods on duty. As the United States had to suffer under the oppressors Yolk for two weeks until The locals were able to rally behind their local Delegate choice and expell the invaders and password their region.

Finally I dont feel like arguing with you anymore as you are trying to steer this topic into a Pro ADN spin campaign rather than a debate about the Actual Invasion that took place.
And the more that I see of the attempted steerage away the more Guilt is implied.
I also note that the Guilty parties have yet to partake here, probably on advice of council, however it only makes it seem more like guilt.

Listen, I dont't know hat is going on.

All I did with my puppet "Praeztork" was go into Italy for an FA military drill and endorse Italian Non Facist who is the FA President Spaceisland. Once Italian Non Facist became delegate we planned that we leave the region at once. But we got ejected....? Now The ADN got blamed when they had nothing whatsoever to do with it. If you are going to acuse some, acuse the FA, we ae the people who did it.

Your operatives entered Italy at approxomatly 3 AM EST and seized the Delegacy from our locally elected Delegate.
Three nations did move at approximately that time and did seize the delegacy. Only one of them is associated with the ADN, and to call him our operative is nonsensical, as he was under no orders from us and, actually, may be charged in court for invading Italy. Furthermore, Praeztork is a puppet nation that has never acted with the ADN, it is an FA nation only, and the owner uses a different puppet for ADN activities.


AND may not have been involved before this happened, may not have sanctioned it what-have-you, but I would find it hard to believe that the ADN should not be involved now. If there was a member of our invasion crew who was a defender on the side, I can guarantee you he/she would not be an invader with us anymore. I understand not assuming responsibility, but I am very surprised the ADN is not making more of a show of separating one of there members doing supposedly what they are set up to be completely against.

the ADN itself had no part in this
Correction, they will be involved in the investigation and eventually the trial of the nation in question. But they did have no part in the organization, or the carry out of this operation.



I would be interested to know if such a “trial” took place. It seems to have been dropped by the ADN (which is of course there choice). He seems to still be with the ADN. Though, to be honest, I think that there should be more pressure in this thread on the Freedom Alliance as I believe he (Gothicville) is more closely associated with them.

Interesting, I just checked his current region, and there is a post about him posting something on an off-site forum that apparently got someone rather agitated. Can we say “Loose Canon.”

Your operatives entered Italy at approxomatly 3 AM EST and seized the Delegacy from our locally elected Delegate.
Three nations did move at approximately that time and did seize the delegacy. Only one of them is associated with the ADN, and to call him our operative is nonsensical, as he was under no orders from us and, actually, may be charged in court for invading Italy. Furthermore, Praeztork is a puppet nation that has never acted with the ADN, it is an FA nation only, and the owner uses a different puppet for ADN activities.


AND may not have been involved before this happened, may not have sanctioned it what-have-you, but I would find it hard to believe that the ADN should not be involved now. If there was a member of our invasion crew who was a defender on the side, I can guarantee you he/she would not be an invader with us anymore. I understand not assuming responsibility, but I am very surprised the ADN is not making more of a show of separating one of there members doing supposedly what they are set up to be completely against.

the ADN itself had no part in this
Correction, they will be involved in the investigation and eventually the trial of the nation in question. But they did have no part in the organization, or the carry out of this operation.



I would be interested to know if such a “trial” took place. It seems to have been dropped by the ADN (which is of course there choice). He seems to still be with the ADN. Though, to be honest, I think that there should be more pressure in this thread on the Freedom Alliance as I believe he (Gothicville) is more closely associated with them.

Interesting, I just checked his current region, and there is a post about him posting something on an off-site forum that apparently got someone rather agitated. Can we say “Loose Canon.”

The nation at issue has been charged in the ADN court.

The nation at issue has been charged in the ADN court.

If I read this wrong, I am sorry. But are you actually, the ADN that is, being so insincere as to charge the "nation," not the player?

The nation at issue has been charged in the ADN court.

If I read this wrong, I am sorry. But are you actually, the ADN that is, being so insincere as to charge the "nation," not the player?

Since the act was committed by one nation (Praeztork), and the ADN member is another nation (Gothicville)... the answer you seek is 'no'.

Ballotonia

well that makes about as much sence as nipples on a Boar Hog.

well that makes about as much sence as nipples on a Boar Hog.


The player is being charged, not just the single nation

well that makes about as much sence as nipples on a Boar Hog.


The player is being charged, not just the single nation

cool, that makes much more sence than the previous coloqulism made it appear to make.

I think we should just forget about this. The ADN have been accused and I and all other ADN members have tryed to stop it, but we cant. Soon it will die off.

I think we should just forget about this. The ADN have been accused and I and all other ADN members have tryed to stop it, but we cant. Soon it will die off.

Heck while we are at it lets just forget what Charlie Manson did, too, Heck lets just forget about what every person who has ever done wether illegal or moraly wrong.

Heck Mods, why not resotre Marathon, Eire, MichaelJackson666 and all the other deleted nations. forgive and forget

</sarcasm>

it aint like that. those are rules and this is not.

LOL.

tell us the one about the Nun the Rabbi and the Hells Angel.

LOL.

tell us the one about the Nun the Rabbi and the Hells Angel.

A nun, a rabbi, and a Hell's Angels biker all walked into a bar. The rabbi turned to the nun and said, "Hey, did you hear the one about us?"

LOL.

tell us the one about the Nun the Rabbi and the Hells Angel.

A nun, a rabbi, and a Hell's Angels biker all walked into a bar. The rabbi turned to the nun and said, "Hey, did you hear the one about us?"

LOL, I like.

...?

I don't get it... is it supposed to be funny, or just completely pointless?

...?

I don't get it... is it supposed to be funny, or just completely pointless?'

It's supposes to be funny in it's pointlessness.

...?

I don't get it... is it supposed to be funny, or just completely pointless?'

It's supposes to be funny in it's pointlessness.

...?

I don't get it... is it supposed to be funny, or just completely pointless?

Fake jokes with no punchline often start off with three religious officials walking into a bar...

Like...a Nun, a Rabbi and a Hells Angel walked into a bar, and said "Ouch?"

:lol:

it aint like that. those are rules and this is not.

I would likely think that the ADN has rules about invading regions, would be suprised if the FF didn't. I have no problem with invaders, but hiding under the guise of defender while invading is odd to say the least.

We have had a lot of fun here for the last page or three, any Meat and Taters Yet?

Today Italy moutns for the death of Lady Justice.
it seems Gothicville, the rogue nation who invaded Italy has been found Nto Guilty.

It breaks my heart to see a group so dedicated to justice Peace and the defense of smaller regions who seeks to stand to a Higher Moral ground condone such activity, this person, regardless of why he did it, or who he did it for, he is first and foremost a member of the defender group and should not be allowed to remain a defender if he desires to perform these activities.

From this day foreward, the ADN and her allied naitons are not welcome in Italy. As we have oft suffered at the hands of Barbarians, Vandals, Germans and other assorted undesirables. Now we can add the ADN to this list.

Italy will remain Locked as with an invader group of this size out there, we are not safe. Today is a truly sad day for Nationstates and Italy.

Hail Caesar!
Hail Italy!
hail Peace!

Well, Looks like you can GET your Caek and EET it too.

From the ADN Office of Public Affairs:
------------------------------------------
Not Guilty

The ADN Supreme Court has issued it's decision in the matter of the case ADN vs. Gothicville, having found the defendant Not Guilty. The Court has chosen this case as an opportunity to advise all ADN members of what constitutes conduct unbecoming of a member, and examines the line between simple negligence and "gross" negligence. The text of the decision follows.

---------------------------------------------------

In the Supreme Court of the Alliance Defense Network

ADN vs. Gothicville

This case came before the Court when the Nation of Gothicville was charged with the ADN offense of Conduct unbecoming of a member of the A.D.N., which is defined as conduct which “would, or could adversely affect the good order of the Alliance Defense Network, and/or adversely reflect on the reputation of the Alliance Defense Network within the NationStates universe.” Rules, Sec. 7(B). The case against the Defendant was ably presented by Presecutor General Penngrove. The Defendant, Gothicville, also appeared before the Court and presented a statement in his own defense.

There were no defenses presented contesting the facts presented by the Presecutor General, alleging that the Defendant, using his puppet Nation of Praeztork, had attacked the Region of Italy, a Region that was not at war with the ADN. The failed attack resulted in the Defendant’s ejection from Italy. The operation in which the Defendant was engaged was not sanctioned by, nor did the ADN have any knowledge of it in any way until the events had already taken place. The Defendant, through the use of his puppet Nation, was acting in cooperation with an entirely different organization from the ADN.

As a direct result of the actions of the Defendant, there was created a thread on the NationStates forums implicating the A.D.N. as an invader organization. The attempted invasion also led to the characterization of the A.D.N. in the World Factbook Entry of Italy as an invader organization. There is no doubt that the actions of the Defendant did, in fact, adversely reflect on the reputation of the ADN within the NationStates universe. Much time was spent thereafter by the leaders of the ADN defending the organization against these charges accusing the ADN of being an invader organization. It is undisputed that the Alliance Defense Network is strongly anti-invader, and was, in fact, primarily created to protect its members from invaders.

There being no issue as to what took place in this matter, we take the facts upon which the charge is based to be factually true. However, considering all the evidence and statements presented, do the actions of the Defendant meet the requirements for a finding of guilt of the offense charged? The Defendant appeared here and apologized, showed great remorse, and stated that he had been on a training exercise with another organization using his puppet Nation, and that they had no intention of attempting to actually take over and occupy the Region of Italy. The Defendant stated, “….I had no idea whatsoever they would blame ADN. The thought did not cross my mind….” The Court also notes the actual age and experience of the Defendant, although it is not a determining factor, but merely one of those that is taken into account, along with all of the other evidence.

We find the statements of the Defendant credible, and now come to the question of whether “intent” is required for a finding of guilt of the offense alleged by the Prosecutor General. Certainly the Defendant’s actions were negligent, and he should have sought advice here before engaging in his “exercise.” However, were they so negligent as to constitute "gross" negligence which would amount to negligence to the extent of showing a complete disregard of the consequences of his deliberate actions, thus, implying the necessary intent? The Court does not think so. This is a criminal offense and so the burden of proof requires a finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This the Court cannot do under the facts under consideration. However, given the same set of circumstances with a Defendant of more experience, maturity and knowledge of the rules of NationStates and of the ADN, our decision might or might not be different.

The Court also gives notice to the Defendant and all other ADN member Nations and Regions that the actions of the Defendant were wrong and almost, but not quite, grossly negligent to the extent of implying intent, and, thus, close to being in violation of the law for which he was charged. This cautionary note having now been given, should such a case factually similiar to this one come before tthe Court again, it is not unlikely that our decision would be different.

THEREFORE, the Court finds the Defendant NOT GUILTY of the offense charged, and

IT IS ORDERED, that any security restrictions placed on the Defendant pending disposition of this matter be restored, and that the Defendant's full ADN membership as it existed prior to the filing of these charges, be reinstated.

SO ORDERED, this 6th day of May, 2004.

FirePeople
Judge, ADN Supreme Court

Kandarin
Judge Pro Tempore, ADN Supreme Court

Concurring Specially:
Keldjora
Presiding Justice, ADN Supreme Court

----------------------------

The Elements of Westwind
ADN Director of the Office of Public Affairs
Equilism Prime Minister/UN Delegate

Well, the ADN courts have had their trial, and found their verdict, and I wont argue with it, as I have already spoken with One of the Judges, and expressed my sincere concerns, as the ADN has now set a terrible precident, they have basically given members free reign to act willy nilly so long as it isnt with their ADN member nation.

If you try to live up to teh higher moral demands of a Defender you cannot allow the darker vices tempt you under the covers you must always wear the white hat, Always be loyal to the higher moral cause, the cause of the defense of the inncent and weak.

Who are the poor oppressed regions to turn too if they cannot be fully sure of how the ADN's loyalties lie.
I do expect teh day when the ADN has to defend an inn0ocent region against its own forces.

:x
Im not pleased with it, all that they did is Justify and sanction invasion.
:roll:

*chuckles*

I wonder if you read the statement, or if you missed the part condemming the actions in Italy.

:x
Im not pleased with it, all that they did is Justify and sanction invasion.
:roll:

If you read the decision, you will note that ADN's decision states that,

"The Court also gives notice to the Defendant and all other ADN member Nations and Regions that the actions of the Defendant were wrong "

If you read the decision, you will note that ADN's decision states that,

"The Court also gives notice to the Defendant and all other ADN member Nations and Regions that the actions of the Defendant were wrong "

So basically this guy hurt the reputation of the ADN and the court admitted what he did was wrong. How come there was no punishment?

That has me curious as well.

Look like it was more of a censor thingie. They say "don't do it again", and hope it sticks.

Then again, I just lock out delegate control. Eh.

So basically this guy hurt the reputation of the ADN and the court admitted what he did was wrong. How come there was no punishment?

'this guy' did not hurt the reputation of the ADN. Deus Ex Fiat did by starting this topic. Since it was an FA action, it would've been appropriate to claim 'invader status' for the FA. Some defenders would've agreed with you as well! Instead, Deus Ex Fiat decided to focus on the one participant in the group who is also an ADN member and then erroneously claim it to be an ADN mission and complain about the ADN. Total bullocks, IMHO, and indicative of a prior agenda to harm the ADN at any remotely possible opportunity.

This is not the fault of that one ADN member, it's a willfull choice to engage in anti-ADN propaganda by Deus Ex Fiat. It's quite appropriate to not reward such misdirected propaganda through punishing ones own members.

Your beef is with the FA, not the ADN. I suggest complaining to them. Ironically, that same player is now also in court at the FA, though for something quite different: not participating in, and even defending against, the FA invasion of the region Atlantic. This speaks volumes on the nature of the FA, IMHO. Yet you continue to insist on focussing on the non-role the ADN played in this.

Ballotonia

Greetings,

This seems to be a case of Italian leadership and their hostility toward the ADN.

On behalf of the FA, I would just like to say that we only go into regions to either defend (such as 'Mercia') or liberate (such as 'Iraq').

It is not our policy to region-crash nor is it an intention.

Those who claim the FA have a hidden agenda are those who are in the FA themselves, who wish to overthrow the current leadership. It has unfortunately become a cut-throat alliance with regards to rebels.

So basically this guy hurt the reputation of the ADN and the court admitted what he did was wrong. How come there was no punishment?

'this guy' did not hurt the reputation of the ADN. Deus Ex Fiat did by starting this topic. Since it was an FA action, it would've been appropriate to claim 'invader status' for the FA. Some defenders would've agreed with you as well! Instead, Deus Ex Fiat decided to focus on the one participant in the group who is also an ADN member and then erroneously claim it to be an ADN mission and complain about the ADN. Total bullocks, IMHO, and indicative of a prior agenda to harm the ADN at any remotely possible opportunity.

This is not the fault of that one ADN member, it's a willfull choice to engage in anti-ADN propaganda by Deus Ex Fiat. It's quite appropriate to not reward such misdirected propaganda through punishing ones own members.

Your beef is with the FA, not the ADN. I suggest complaining to them. Ironically, that same player is now also in court at the FA, though for something quite different: not participating in, and even defending against, the FA invasion of the region Atlantic. This speaks volumes on the nature of the FA, IMHO. Yet you continue to insist on focussing on the non-role the ADN played in this.

Ballotonia

*Translation*

this is a repeate of the old case
Woman is assaulted by a violent man
Woman is the victim yet is made teh villian
thanks to the criminals legal defense team
who claims she was "asking for it"
or "by her clotes and actions she was Enticing teh man to attack her"

so basically this villian, Gothicville has a dual citizenship, he is both a member of the ADN and the FA, Now this strikes me as odd, he is a member of a defender group as well as a invader group, and I cannot recall Ever seeing the ADN intervene in a FA occupation, they infact aided the FA on one ocassion (my puppet suffered during the invasion).
this is what I meant earlier when I said.
"well Looks like you can GET your Caek, and EET it too."

Personally, I see a preciendt set by this, a bad one, as Hey, you are not bound to the principals of the ADN personally only your nation is, and if you want to go invading with another nation then so be it.

Loop

Your exactly right Loop

I hope by their silence they are not agreeing with our posts.

I hope by their silence they are not agreeing with our posts.


Yea I got 10 bucks on that

The ADN and RR are currently invading The West Pacific in order to keep the new legally elected Delegate from being able to take power.

Fiat will have a field day when he sees this.

Enlightening to realize that people have so little faith in the system and the game that they judge people before they even have a chance to be delegate.

I found this part most interesting of the ADN Constitution.

Article 1, Section 6:

The Congress of the ADN shall have the power to provide for the defense and welfare of the Alliance Defense Network;

To declare War; Said action shall include the power to authorize actions in counter invasions and/or offensively to remove threats from our organization and regions. In case of war or threat of War, the ADN may initiate aggressive action against another force or government.

To raise and support its Armed Forces;

To make all laws that are necessary and proper for carrying into execution of the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the Alliance Defense Network, or any Department or Officer thereof.

Interferring with the election process of a region is not mentioned.

All of these nations (it appears) entered the WP tonight around 12-1 am. Zyonn, Titanica, Deep End, La Femme Confidente, Naoi, Ad Infinitum, Khorndoghia, Fleeb, My Warrior Puppet, Snackmen, St Khidr, Rhizobium, Parthini, Kakistos, Devoid

Before I once again head for bed, let me reiterate that the FF and TITO have officially entered the WP. Members of the FF are also members of the ADN. ADN members are welcome to volunteer their services, at the request of natives of the WP, btw. We're not going beyond letting our members answer the plea for help from natives of another ADN region. These are their friends and allies, and I can't blame them for answering the fear of the WP natives that this may be an NPO sneak attack. There's a lot of evidence to point towards the latter being true.

Translation: The large majority of forces entering the WP at the behest of scared natives of the WP are not ADN. There are some double membership troops, and there are volunteers.

I'm going to bed. Please don't tear this post apart; I'm just letting you know what our official stance is here. I'm also pointing out that although it's actually largely the FF and TITO moving in, the ADN once again gets "blamed." This seems to happen a lot, and it's quite exhausting.

Hmm, left out a few details, eh MVS (and hello Loop - I don't believe we've had the pleasure).

Our WP Constitution says the elections run until the 16 - so Norion is still the Delegate until then no matter what. Its just that someone else might have the power and there is the trouble.

MVS is very likely a foreign agent - he went by several puppets, one of which, (Kurdizastan) declared he was defecting to the Pacific (this was soon after that SLR mess in the WP and SP).

Long story short; MVS lied, was outted, lied about THAT and now says everything was a big mistake. Many nations are uncomfortable with a nation with close ties to the NPO gaining control of the WP (especially with posts/threads/accounts being deleted or altered on our offsite forum).

Perhaps these minor details could color opinions on current events...

Well PH as they are obviously invading to disrupt legal elections well, Perhaps you should suspend their accounts on the ADN forums until they pull out, also, I sent you a PM on the EP mesage board. I have a serous NON itlay Non WP queerrie for ya.

Basically what I am saying you should reign your people in because everytime they go out on their own like this, or like Italy, they bring a backlash against your orginizzaiton, and that cannot be good for you.

Basically what I am saying you should reign your people in because everytime they go out on their own like this, or like Italy, they bring a backlash against your orginizzaiton, and that cannot be good for you.

The ADN isn't a dictatorship, so Pope Hope's job isn't to "reign in" anyone who does something without prior authorization from the ADN.

The 'backlash' you refer to... The only thing I can see is the anti-ADN propaganda you're spouting, which one can hardly blame ADN members for. No matter what, you'll always find something to complain about towards the ADN, no matter how small, irrelevant, or erroneous. It's not the ADN's job either to meet your warped standards (by all means, start equally implementing those standard in your own region, ok?)

Ballotonia

Basically what I am saying you should reign your people in because everytime they go out on their own like this, or like Italy, they bring a backlash against your orginizzaiton, and that cannot be good for you.

The ADN isn't a dictatorship, so Pope Hope's job isn't to "reign in" anyone who does something without prior authorization from the ADN.

The 'backlash' you refer to... The only thing I can see is the anti-ADN propaganda you're spouting, which one can hardly blame ADN members for. No matter what, you'll always find something to complain about towards the ADN, no matter how small, irrelevant, or erroneous. It's not the ADN's job either to meet your warped standards (by all means, start equally implementing those standard in your own region, ok?)

Ballotonia

Like Booting anyone with more than 5 endorsements?

Seriously, if I wasnt so groovy rihgt now I would proabbly say somethign visious but Im in a good mood, so Im groovy.

also if PH cannot reign them in, they ban them from teh ADN site, simple.shun them.

Norion reminds me of Stalin.

Stalin killed lots of people. Norion (maybe) bans some people from a text-based game.

I find the comparison somewhat lacking.

You're right Mr. Blackbird...clearly Stalin's crimes pale in comparison to those of Norion ;)

Perhaps Stalin banned some people from text-based games too. In that case, the comparison would be much more accurate and I would withdraw my previous statement.

Stalin didnt just ban folks from the Peoples Glorious Revolutionary Text Based Game, He had them Executed as well.