NationStates Jolt Archive

The income tax in nation states is not bi-partisan it is in fact partisan you have no control over how its implemented and the amount to be taken out of the populations pay check. further more it taxes the wealthy more than any other social class. By doing so it makes a nation left leaning no matter how conservative its run. This being said I have come to believe that nation states is partisan on other matters as well. An example of this is how a left leaning country’s national description is praised and is shown little fault but a right leaning country’s description shows a slanted spin to its left counter part.

On more thing keep your comments to the SUBJECT MATTER no spewing PERSONAL ATTACKS and/or CHARACTER ASSASSINATIONS please.

(the poll got messed up my mistake please revote sorry)

I think that the majority of the players on NS have a liberal to left wing views. There are alot of European members and people from the US who are liberal-left. (like me!)

I think that the majority of the players on NS have a liberal to left wing views. There are alot of European members and people from the US who are liberal-left. (like me!)

:twisted:

The DU region protests the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush II and provides a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. ?W Conservative nations are not welcome here. Please notify your UN delegate (Allanea) of UN proposals you make so that he can endorse them. All members (THIS MEANS YOU!), please join the Regional Forum: http://s3.invisionfree.com/DU_Region/ NO RECRUITERS.

Uh, actually you do have a choice in how it's implemented. The amount goes up and down based on how much money your government has to fork out for any expensive options you choose on issues, and there is a separate issue for taxing the wealthy more than the poor.

I think that the majority of the players on NS have a liberal to left wing views. There are alot of European members and people from the US who are liberal-left. (like me!)

:twisted:

The DU region protests the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush II and provides a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. ?W Conservative nations are not welcome here. Please notify your UN delegate (Allanea) of UN proposals you make so that he can endorse them. All members (THIS MEANS YOU!), please join the Regional Forum: http://s3.invisionfree.com/DU_Region/ NO RECRUITERS.

What Exactly are u trying to say? One Region yes but most of the regions have liberal-left nations which are mostly in the majority. There are conserative-capitalist nations among them but usally in the minority.

My point is that nation states downplays the right wing point of view in its national descriptions and vilifying them. I'm not arguing posing political points of view I would just like to have a fair balanced national description and for example not be called "Authoritarian"over an issue I answered because I don't want nude fat men running through my nations streets!!!!

i agree whole heartedly that nation states is bias towards right wing points of view. I’m a liberal and proud of it but i can’t stand silent your are overwhelmingly correct.

Liberal
Democratic Socialists[/i]] population of X million are fiercely patriotic and enjoy great social equality; they tend to view other, more capitalist countries as somewhat immoral and corrupt.
Left Wing Utopia[/i]] population of X million are free to do what they want with their own bodies, and vote for whoever they like in elections; if they go into business, however, they are regulated to within an inch of their lives.
Liberatarian Police State[/i]] population of X million are proud of their wide-ranging civil freedoms, and those who aren't tend to be dragged off the streets by men in dark suits and hustled into cars with tinted windows.
Conservative
Right Wing Utopia[/i]] population of X million are free to succeed or fail in life on their own merits; the successful tend to enjoy an opulent (but moralistic) lifestyle, while the failures can be seen crowding out most jails.
Conservative Democracy[/i]] population of X million are known throughout the region for their efficiency and work ethic, as well as their general suspicion of leisure.

I think your example, about taxing the wealthy more, is wrong. It's one of the issues you get to make choices about - our citizens pay a flat rate.

(Oh and to save you the bother of looking me up, my nation has been an Anarchy pretty much since day one.) Our region is mixed, with a majority of left-leaning nations, but that may be because most of us are Brits.

My guess is that most NS players are younger than the average for their population. If that's so, you'd expect left-wing/liberal views to predominate: studies show people get more right-wing/conservative as they age.

White Lotus Eaters
Delegate, Urbanites (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_region/region=urbanites) Region

Actually, the largest group of nations on NS are the centrists. Inoffensive Centrist Democracy: around 15.5%

http://alces.sel.uaf.edu/gregg/ns/nsmap.html

Go figure

My taxes have stayed at a rate of 100% even after voting to have them lower three times.

"...The average income tax rate is 100%. A powerhouse of a private sector is dominated by the Automobile Manufacturing industry.

Citizens are enjoying a recent large cut in taxes..."

Isn't this "simulation" biased towards your politics?
Very possibly. Not intentionally, though. And since there's no ultimate measure of success or failure in NationStates, any bias shouldn't affect much. For example, you don't win the game by having the strongest economy. It just means your nation has a strong economy.


Why is my nation so weird?
Everything is exaggerated a little. Well, okay, a lot. Your decisions affect your nation very strongly, so your country might seem like a more extreme version of what you were aiming for. Unless you have radical politics. In which case you probably think nothing's wrong.

My decision had unintended consequences!
Yep, that'll happen. For one thing, see "Why is my nation so weird?" above. For another, pretty much every decision you make will involve a trade-off of some kind. It's kind of an exercise in choosing the best of a bunch of bad options. You might find this frustrating, especially if you're the kind of person who thinks the solutions to all the world's problems are obvious.

Is my nation left-wing or right-wing?
The left/right scale isn't used in NationStates. Because it's one-dimensional, it's not a very accurate way of measuring your politics. NationStates has three main scales: personal, economic, and political. In each case, you can be authoritarian (moral, or restrictive) or libertarian (liberal, or laissez-faire). For example, someone with left-wing politics might want high levels of personal freedom (e.g. no drug laws, gay rights), low levels of economic freedom (e.g. taxes, welfare), and average levels of political freedom (e.g. compulsory voting at elections). A libertarian might prefer high levels of freedom on all scales. An authoritarian might want the opposite.

Isn't this "simulation" biased towards your politics?
Very possibly. Not intentionally, though. And since there's no ultimate measure of success or failure in NationStates, any bias shouldn't affect much. For example, you don't win the game by having the strongest economy. It just means your nation has a strong economy.


Why is my nation so weird?
Everything is exaggerated a little. Well, okay, a lot. Your decisions affect your nation very strongly, so your country might seem like a more extreme version of what you were aiming for. Unless you have radical politics. In which case you probably think nothing's wrong.

My decision had unintended consequences!
Yep, that'll happen. For one thing, see "Why is my nation so weird?" above. For another, pretty much every decision you make will involve a trade-off of some kind. It's kind of an exercise in choosing the best of a bunch of bad options. You might find this frustrating, especially if you're the kind of person who thinks the solutions to all the world's problems are obvious.

Is my nation left-wing or right-wing?
The left/right scale isn't used in NationStates. Because it's one-dimensional, it's not a very accurate way of measuring your politics. NationStates has three main scales: personal, economic, and political. In each case, you can be authoritarian (moral, or restrictive) or libertarian (liberal, or laissez-faire). For example, someone with left-wing politics might want high levels of personal freedom (e.g. no drug laws, gay rights), low levels of economic freedom (e.g. taxes, welfare), and average levels of political freedom (e.g. compulsory voting at elections). A libertarian might prefer high levels of freedom on all scales. An authoritarian might want the opposite.

I think that the majority of the players on NS have a liberal to left wing views. There are alot of European members and people from the US who are liberal-left. (like me!)

:twisted:

The DU region protests the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush II and provides a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. ?W Conservative nations are not welcome here. Please notify your UN delegate (Allanea) of UN proposals you make so that he can endorse them. All members (THIS MEANS YOU!), please join the Regional Forum: http://s3.invisionfree.com/DU_Region/ NO RECRUITERS.

What Exactly are u trying to say? One Region yes but most of the regions have liberal-left nations which are mostly in the majority. There are conserative-capitalist nations among them but usally in the minority.

I was agreeing with you.

NS left wing! Hardly. It's next to impossible to have a decent economy with socialism.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.

I think that the majority of the players on NS have a liberal to left wing views. There are alot of European members and people from the US who are liberal-left. (like me!)

:twisted:

The DU region protests the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush II and provides a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. ?W Conservative nations are not welcome here. Please notify your UN delegate (Allanea) of UN proposals you make so that he can endorse them. All members (THIS MEANS YOU!), please join the Regional Forum: http://s3.invisionfree.com/DU_Region/ NO RECRUITERS.

What Exactly are u trying to say? One Region yes but most of the regions have liberal-left nations which are mostly in the majority. There are conserative-capitalist nations among them but usally in the minority.

I was agreeing with you.

Oh ok then.

I dont think the left is the larger party (even on NS) I just think they're louder and vote more in polls. I mean, something like 60-70% of the country supports GWB, of course, thats in horribly biased opinionated and rigged polls, according to some.
And if your European, well, frankly...I dont care what you think about OUR president.

NS is very liberal. It is not on the same scale as Al Franken, but it is still liberal. To prove this point all you have to do is look at the consequences of on certain issues.

This stat has been made available by Qaaolchoura, there has been a lot of effort put into his work so check it out.
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=102892

For example: 3: Marijuana should be legal.
Strongly Agree: UN Category: Inoffensive Centrist Democracy Civil Rights: Very Good Economy: Good Political Freedoms: Good
Strongly Disagree: UN Category: Inoffensive Centrist Democracy Civil Rights: Below Average Economy: Good Political Freedoms: Good

Now most conservatives would be opposed to the legalization of weed, and most liberals would be for it. This obvious biased statistic if proof that you are rewarded for making liberal decisions. To be honest they should have put a spin on choosing to legalize it with something like a weaker economy.

Another issue that I have noticed has an obvious biased result is the one that involves making hollywood show more diversity. Your government appears to be racist if you do not regulate the industry.

I think you should care if you are European if Bush is elected president. You should care who is elected anywhere. We live in a global village were everyone affects everything, never give up and become cynical.

I am right-wing if anyone is curious.

Now most conservatives would be opposed to the legalization of weed, and most liberals would be for it. This obvious biased statistic if proof that you are rewarded for making liberal decisions. To be honest they should have put a spin on choosing to legalize it with something like a weaker economy.
Perhaps that is because a civil right is deemed as allowing someone to do something. Legalizing heroine would increase civil rights. Furthermore, legalizing marijuana would strengthen the economy because the people selling marijuana would have to report the profits to the government. That means they would have to pay an income tax on them. Don't criticize that which you do not understand.

The issue at stake with marijuana is idealogical, not one based on "civil rights" and the economy.

lol Al Franken left. That should be retitled: Dumbass Left. LOL!!!

I find no problems with the way the taxes are done. The more social programs the more left you go, the more taxes you get. I can understand it. I keep my taxes pretty low. No complaints here.

[semi-sarcasm]U R ALL R0NG111

NationStates is unbelievably right-wing!!1

My economy is imploded when in fact, it is right-wing economic policies that implode one's economy IRL.

The default for "Conservative" governments is Free Market Paradise, which has high political freedoms, whereas the default "Liberal" government style is medium. It should be low/high not high/medium.

To add insult to injury vote buying, death penalty, and voluntary voting all raise political freedoms, and keeping money-grubbing capitalist pigs from gold mining in government lakes lowers it.

Since I expect to find this locked by the time that I get back to it tomorrow, I will finish it with you over TM.[/semi-sarcasm]
No, it has some "left-wing" biases, and some "right-wing", just wanted to make that point.

Although this is true, far left wing economic policies also hurt one's economy, although I find this a small price to pay even when Max does base some of these issues on the stereotypes rather than the fact of the matter.

Max lives in Austrailia, and except for the vote buying, coming from there, I can see why he would feel that way. He needs to follow US politics for a coupla years. THese actually work if one looks at the historic instead of modern day definitions of "liberal" and "conservative". Gah, how I hate those one dimensional terms.

This first part can be explained by the fact that as I said, being an Austrailian he has a different cultural prospective, and from what I've seen the author of the other issue is even more eccentric than I am if that's possible, but it was not written or edited by Max.

For example: 3: Marijuana should be legal.
Strongly Agree: UN Category: Inoffensive Centrist Democracy Civil Rights: Very Good Economy: Good Political Freedoms: Good
Strongly Disagree: UN Category: Inoffensive Centrist Democracy Civil Rights: Below Average Economy: Good Political Freedoms: Good

Now most conservatives would be opposed to the legalization of weed, and most liberals would be for it. This obvious biased statistic if proof that you are rewarded for making liberal decisions. To be honest they should have put a spin on choosing to legalize it with something like a weaker economy.
Taken out of context. Take a look at the first, second, and sixth questions in that thread while you are at it.

Another issue that I have noticed has an obvious biased result is the one that involves making hollywood show more diversity. Your government appears to be racist if you do not regulate the industry.

Actually, that occurs when you chose the first option.

Another interesting issue that popped up twice for me to act on was the issue that covered gun control. It stated that there is a lot of gun related violence. All the options I was given were left wing responses and pro gun control. The only option that it gave me other than choosing the first 2 options was to ban violent movies and video games. I have been forced to dismiss this but the real thing that ticks me off is that gun violence dose not come from gun owners. It comes from guns stolen or bought in other countries with no background checks. The question is clearly bias towards gun control and in my opinion should be eliminated or updated with a wider array of options.

If you believe there is no problem, you should simply opt to dismiss the issue. There is no left-wing conspiracy as you may like to believe.

It comes from guns stolen or bought in other countries with no background checks.
1. People do not exactly steal guns, do you have any idea how counter intuitive as well as infeasible that is.
2. You can't just walk into the US with guns.

If you believe there is no problem, you should simply opt to dismiss the issue. There is no left-wing conspiracy as you may like to believe.

It comes from guns stolen or bought in other countries with no background checks.
1. People do not exactly steal guns, do you have any idea how counter intuitive as well as infeasible that is.
2. You can't just walk into the US with guns.

No one said it was a conspiracy, it was meerly stated that NS seems to be left-leaning.

How is it infeasible to steal a gun? A kid steals a gun from his parent and sells it to another kid at school, unfeasible? This happened at my school so I dont see how unfeasible it is. If that doesn't fit you definition for stealing your morales are terrible.

You are wrong you can walk into the US with guns. If this is not true why do we have drugs in America? I don't think they are all homegrown.

This relates to the weed and your economy. How many productive hard working, go-get 'em pot heads do you know? Me 0, and I know a lot. To say that weed would strengthen an economy is probablly right, but not on a very noticable scale. I suggested the economy twist as something humurous, because just like the FAQ said the results are exaggerated. Playing off the unattentative, lazt pot head idea you could lower your economy because no one wants to work.

Another interesting issue that popped up twice for me to act on was the issue that covered gun control. It stated that there is a lot of gun related violence. All the options I was given were left wing responses and pro gun control. The only option that it gave me other than choosing the first 2 options was to ban violent movies and video games. I have been forced to dismiss this but the real thing that ticks me off is that gun violence dose not come from gun owners. It comes from guns stolen or bought in other countries with no background checks. The question is clearly bias towards gun control and in my opinion should be eliminated or updated with a wider array of options.
Yes that's nice, you've managed to find one issue that you find to be left-leaning out of eighty. Good for you.

I've managed to find four (out of the top of my head, mind, not looking for conspiracies, that are rather obviously (at least to my mind) right-leaning. Two or three of them written by Max ("Death Penalty on Agenda" and "Corporations Demand Political Say" and I think the "Reclaim the Streets" one as well), unlike the one that you give as an example, and all four infuriate me, until I take Max's background being from Austrailia, which has rather different politics and political system than we do into account, and the fact that this game is satire.

At that point, I only get really ticked off about is the bizarre alternate universe of "Diving for Dollars", and that being written by a player, I let go, and dismiss it. I would advise that you do the same with all player issues that you find to be left-leaning. With issues by Max, recall that this is satire, 'ere, and that he has writtn some rather right-wing biased issues as well.

And now that both people to whom I responded earlier are here, I would appreciate and end to this bait and switch that I've been observing, and a response to my earlier posts.

I can't make you of course, but 'twould be rather greatly apperciated. Bait and switch is not particuarly fun if you are on the wrongend of it, which is why I try to avoid it myself.

You are wrong you can walk into the US with guns. If this is not true why do we have drugs in America? I don't think they are all homegrown.
I'll agree it's possible to steal guns, but this statement is so ful of holes.

Guns are much bulkier then drugs, so they are more likely to be spotted on during an x-ray or search. Guns are mdae of metal, drugs aren't, so they will set off a metal detector. Drugs can be disguised much more easily as, say, a perscription medicine, then a gun can ("Oh, that's just a *cap* gun" :?). By that logic, we can say that since you can smuggle a shoulder mounted rocket launcher in, you can smuggle a tank in.

I'll admit that it is possible to smuggle guns into the US, but that statement ... :evil:

On another note, it is much much harder to make an anarchy then a psychotic dictatorship in NS (not that I'm saying one is right wing and one is left). Infact, in my PD, the only thing I can't quite seem to squash completely is the economy, so there are issues that boost your economy even when you deliberatly try to smash it into implosion. On the other hand, it is very very hard to maintain an economy and civil rights at the same time, which can be interpreted either way, and political freedoms are just plain hard to build up ever (but that one of the best issues is the vote-buying, with a pro vote-buying stance, should say something)

Here is an experiment you might want to try . . .

- Create a new nation, answering all the initial poll questions at random, using a die, random number generator, whatever you want, to choose the answers. If you wish, include not answering a question as an option, but make sure you make a note of this if you do so.

- Place it on the 2 issues per day setting, and do not enter it into the UN. Proceed to answer the issues every day at random as above, until the nation has a population of at least 300m.

- Then look at its UN Category and stats. I bet you it will be broadly centrist and possess an OK Economy, OK Civil Rights and relatively few Political Freedoms.

Seriously, try it. You could even use several, maybe 5 nations, to compare results. I bet someone here has already done something like this, if so, please share your findings. I will get around to doing this myself at some point.

I really think you will find that there is no built-in bias. Unless Centrism and mediocrity counts as a bias.

Guns are just as easy to smuggle in as drugs. Look at the US/Mexico border you can just walk across it. No one is going to go through customs when they can go around it. guns aren’t as "bulky" as one would think they come in all shapes and sizes. I have news for you Naleth you could march 20 elephants across the border with out anyone knowing. That is why I feel we need to militarize the US/Mexico border. Too bulky what a joke. :wink:

:wink:

I think that the left wing tactics just work better that the conservative routes

NS left wing! Hardly. It's next to impossible to have a decent economy with socialism.

Depends on what branch of socialism you follow. Plenty of revised capitalist/social democracies as well as most Stalinist state capitalist have very good economies.

It's only when you get to "produce what we need" systems that you get poor economies, because their economies are a reflection of GDP. Without a "gotta own everything" society not as much gets produced = bad reflection of economy.

I've actually found NS to be mostly on the right wing side of things. Mostly for the same arguments about economics that have already been brought up

Socialism, Communism, Marxism call it what you want it never works just look back at history. Now if your going to say look at China. Well lets look at China a quarter of the population is starving and the rest are dirt poor except the corrupt government and the social elite. Simple fact socialism never works because it dose not follow a humans basic instincts and values which are food, survival, hope, love, religion, money, freedom. Key point NO MONEY!!!! Another key point NO RELIGION IN COMMUNIST COUNTRIES!!! Here is a key point NO FOOD!!! and NO FREEDOM!!!!! They are all police states. A country’s economy is based on its gross national product as some people would like not to agree with but besides that why would someone agree with socialism. There is no benefits to it unless you are a lazy bum who wont get off his ass to work.

Socialism, Communism, Marxism call it what you want it never works just look back at history.
Maybe you don't need to look back at history. Just look at Sweeden.

Maybe we need to focus on the topic at hand, instead of allowing the Great Cob to pull bait and switch on us. :roll:

Kindly respond to My posts, Naleth's, and TG's, ther entire post mind, instead of focusing on one aspect of somebody else's post, or outright changing the subject. :evil:

Siosa, and everybody else, please do not let him pull this. Bait and switch is a very low and unsophisticated method of debate. Not to mention he has made several entiirely innacurate claims, which nobody has responded to, and I will not until he responds to my posts, the top part of Naleth's post, and TG's. :x

And if a mod sees this would you please move tho off-topic bait and switch sections of this into the General forum, them having nothing to do with Gameplay? Please? :)

I have no political standing, but I have noticed that NationStates tends to lean left. Honest opinion, not a political one like most of the opinions in this thread.

Understandable.

Key point NO MONEY!!!!

The San don't use money and haven't for thousands of years. They're almost anarchist. Money isn't an inherent need to humans.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.

Ok some people are getting off topic so lets move towards the orginal topic. Also as a reply to Letila money is needed in a modern highly sophisticated society and who are the San? I think thats an indicator how well known they are. :wink: Whats with the pic of the to dudes with big butts :?:

Whats with the pic of the to dudes with big butts

Not dudes, women. I like big butts.

As for the San, they live in southern Africa and speak some of the languages with clicks in them. A good example of them is the !Kung or Ju|'hõasi.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.

[semi-sarcasm]U R ALL R0NG111

NationStates is unbelievably right-wing!!1

My economy is imploded when in fact, it is right-wing economic policies that implode one's economy IRL.

The default for "Conservative" governments is Free Market Paradise, which has high political freedoms, whereas the default "Liberal" government style is medium. It should be low/high not high/medium.

To add insult to injury vote buying, death penalty, and voluntary voting all raise political freedoms, and keeping money-grubbing capitalist pigs from gold mining in government lakes lowers it.

Since I expect to find this locked by the time that I get back to it tomorrow, I will finish it with you over TM.[/semi-sarcasm]
No, it has some "left-wing" biases, and some "right-wing", just wanted to make that point.

Although this is true, far left wing economic policies also hurt one's economy, although I find this a small price to pay even when Max does base some of these issues on the stereotypes rather than the fact of the matter.

Max lives in Austrailia, and except for the vote buying, coming from there, I can see why he would feel that way. He needs to follow US politics for a coupla years. THese actually work if one looks at the historic instead of modern day definitions of "liberal" and "conservative". Gah, how I hate those one dimensional terms.

This first part can be explained by the fact that as I said, being an Austrailian he has a different cultural prospective, and from what I've seen the author of the other issue is even more eccentric than I am if that's possible, but it was not written or edited by Max.

[semi-ignoring the semi-sarcasm]
Umm. You seem to be implying that an imploded economy is good. The word "imploded" means it has reached a negative point, it dwindled to nothing, and didn't stop there. Imploded is the worst case scenerio for an economy. You are in severe debt and with no way of paying it back. That is what an imploded economy is. A right-wing policy would generate more jobs, more markets, and allow for more profit oppertunities. Thus a right-wing economy will never be imploded, even if they are in debt, teh economy has teh ability to pay it back, but choses not too for the sake of jobs and economy stimulation.

Here is something that I find interresting. Higher income tax = less crime on NationStates. Does anyone see that as odd? [/semi-ignoring the semi-sarcasm]

The income tax in nation states is not bi-partisan it is in fact partisan you have no control over how its implemented and the amount to be taken out of the populations pay check. further more it taxes the wealthy more than any other social class. By doing so it makes a nation left leaning no matter how conservative its run. This being said I have come to believe that nation states is partisan on other matters as well. An example of this is how a left leaning country’s national description is praised and is shown little fault but a right leaning country’s description shows a slanted spin to its left counter part.

On more thing keep your comments to the SUBJECT MATTER no spewing PERSONAL ATTACKS and/or CHARACTER ASSASSINATIONS please.

(the poll got messed up my mistake please revote sorry)

I would say the game does have a slight pro-liberal lean.

It does take, however, a perfidious pleasure in keeping me as a left-leaning college state.

Given my economy, which prevents me from maintaining a large fleet IC despite my technology, I'd say it's at the very least, staunchly capitalist.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.

[semi-ignoring the semi-sarcasm]
Umm. You seem to be implying that an imploded economy is good. The word "imploded" means it has reached a negative point, it dwindled to nothing, and didn't stop there. Imploded is the worst case scenerio for an economy. You are in severe debt and with no way of paying it back. That is what an imploded economy is. A right-wing policy would generate more jobs, more markets, and allow for more profit oppertunities. Thus a right-wing economy will never be imploded, even if they are in debt, teh economy has teh ability to pay it back, but choses not too for the sake of jobs and economy stimulation.

Here is something that I find interresting. Higher income tax = less crime on NationStates. Does anyone see that as odd? [/semi-ignoring the semi-sarcasm]
You seem to have totally missed the point. Qaaolchoura knows (or I hope he does) that Imploded = bad (I thought that this was very obvious from the post). What he was trying to say is that the (slightly extreme) conservative economic choices aught to hurt your economy, just like the (once again, slightly extreme) liberal ones do.

To Cob: You seemed to miss the fact that I acknowledge that you can smuglle guns into the US (that lone 2nd paragraph), but that doesn't change the fact that you can't just "walk in" ... yes it might be possible to come across the mexican border if you didn't mind a little hike. Not quite what I'd call "walking in" though.


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The Most Serene People's Republic of Naleth
"Life is a suicide mission"
Shameless Plug for Adelaide (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Adelaide)

[semi-ignoring the semi-sarcasm]
Umm. You seem to be implying that an imploded economy is good. The word "imploded" means it has reached a negative point, it dwindled to nothing, and didn't stop there. Imploded is the worst case scenerio for an economy. You are in severe debt and with no way of paying it back. That is what an imploded economy is. A right-wing policy would generate more jobs, more markets, and allow for more profit oppertunities. Thus a right-wing economy will never be imploded, even if they are in debt, teh economy has teh ability to pay it back, but choses not too for the sake of jobs and economy stimulation.

Here is something that I find interresting. Higher income tax = less crime on NationStates. Does anyone see that as odd? [/semi-ignoring the semi-sarcasm]
What I was saying is that economic policies to either extreme = poor economy, and that the only realistic way to implode one's economy IRL is if you are a dictator/corrupt oligarchy who allows yourself to be exploited by capitalist policies, however in NationStates, the more extreme capitalizt your polcies, the better your economy (for the most part at any rate) I will not get into right-wing economic policies, as that would be general forumish. If you wish to get into this debate, repost that in General and watch for Incertonia, Enodia, etc to respond. Your claims are a drastic oversimplification which I would rather not get into the specifics of at the moment.

No. Education, social welfare, and rehabilitation programs and/or strong military and police force cost large quantities of money, however the former eliminates the need for crime, and fixes the psychological problems of those who commit it anywhen, and the later plucks the criminals out of society, and puts them where they can do no harm unless they escape.

Crime is caused primarily by social inequality (either between rich and poor, or ruling oligarchs and everybody else, ie lack of essentials), and to a much smaller extent by people with psychological problems, not as some people seem to believe by eliminating the profit motive.

You seem to have totally missed the point. Qaaolchoura knows (or I hope he does) that Imploded = bad (I thought that this was very obvious from the post). What he was trying to say is that the (slightly extreme) conservative economic choices aught to hurt your economy, just like the (once again, slightly extreme) liberal ones do.
Yes I do, and yes I did.

Thank you for clarifying that for me while I was fiddling with my MaxD--ned LAN trying to make it work, Nal. :twisted:

No Problem ;)

*recently did some small-scale-network-moving-aroundiness that resulted in not being able to use my computer for a few days.*
*found out how dependant he's become on some of the PNP features :P*

"To Cob: You seemed to miss the fact that I acknowledge that you can smuglle guns into the US (that lone 2nd paragraph), but that doesn't change the fact that you can't just "walk in" ... yes it might be possible to come across the mexican border if you didn't mind a little hike. Not quite what I'd call "walking in" though."

Do you live in the same world as the rest of us? It is that easy. The united states is unable to police its border. The force intrusted with policing it is under maned and under funded. The reason in my opinion is that certain government officials and people of high power want the immigrants to run rampit. Call it vote buying (democrats) or cheap labor (big business). The main fact is I could run an armored column through there and no one would know until I hit Houston.

One more thing Letila I like big butts too!!!

Do you live in the same world as the rest of us? It is that easy. The united states is unable to police its border. The force intrusted with policing it is under maned and under funded. The reason in my opinion is that certain government officials and people of high power want the immigrants to run rampit. Call it vote buying (democrats) or cheap labor (big business). The main fact is I could run an armored column through there and no one would know until I hit Houston.

One more thing Letila I like big butts too!!!
Er- hem, can we please stay on topic, or shall I ask a Moderator to move this thread into General?

Qaaolchoura silence yourself. We are on topic were discusing left vs right and how left is built into the game and what were doing now is backing up our claims and trying to refute others so unless you have an opinion stick it. You wine like a mule.

For others that is the only time i will indulge in a personal attack because Qaaolchoura is trying to silence the debate by getting it deleted or moved. Qaaolchoura if you don't like whats being said make your own topic up in the forum and leave this one.

I noticed alot of people are viewing this topic but not posting there take on the situation. For those just reading please feel free to chime in and speak out. I want you to be herd even if i don't agree with you.

I noticed something about nation states. Its easy to be called centrist or liberal. Though to be called conservative you have to silene people that are not politically correct (anyone here of free speech and expression works both ways) and kill the environment. Dose that sound like a liberal slant built into the game? If it dose your not alone.

Qaaolchoura is right, political debates about the real world go in the general forum. If you want to continue debating gun smuggling and US border security, I suggest starting a thread there. I will not be making any more posts in this thread on the subject
and no doubt this will be interpreted as an admitance of defeat

In regards to your last post, the game it self does not rate you on a conservative/liberal scale. It rates you on a 3-d economic, civil, and political scale. If you interpret "right wing" as high economy and low pf/cf, then yes, that his how NS is. The best interpretation I have seen is that your "left/right"ness is "Personal Freedom" - "Econommic Freedom" (or the other way around if you prefer). Basically, since you are categorized by those two things (plus political freedoms, which has nothing to do with left/rightness under this system), you get nations with a high personal and low economic are extreme left (think communism) and a high economy and low personal are extreme right (think fascism).

Once again, this is just one interpretation of the game (and not the one the game uses for it's liberal/conservative UN rankings), and you can have your own. Yours seems to be that anarchy is extreme left while psychotic dictatorship is extrme right (which is just not true). This is probably why you are thinking that the game has a left-wing slant.

When you drive accross the US-Canada border they only search like 10% of cars and that's based on what the car and the people inside look like. In order to smuggle a gun accross the US-Canada border all you need is to be slightly aging reserved looking, not looking nervous, have a wife, have a child, not be Middle Eastern, don't have any scars, and be driving a toyota. It's surefire.

But that's beside the point. The assertion was that an overwhelming majority of gun-related crimes are committed by those who steal them or smuggle them, that is, unlicensed illegal guns. After Googling a bit the statistic was reported on multiple pages that crime guns are roughly 40 percent legally licensed.

Oh for god's sake. Here, check this:

http://alces.sel.uaf.edu/gregg/ns/politicalmap.jpg

As you can see, the political spectrum of NationStates works in 3D, so any liberal bias accusations are meaningless. There are several right-wing UN Categories available. Capitalist Paradise, Capitalizt, Corporate Bordello, Iron Fist Consumerists, something to suit any desired combination of political and economic freedoms and civil rights. The idea that running a nation along right-wing lines somehow restricts you is patently absurd. Seriously, study the spectrum, and focus your efforts in the direction you wish.

I'm not arguing how the game works. I am simply saying theres a liberal slant in the questioning and national discriptions.

I'm not arguing how the game works. I am simply saying theres a liberal slant in the questioning and national discriptions.
My first post on this thread was evidence to the contrary, showing 3 liberal (granted one is liberaterian) nations with bad descriptions, and 2 conservative nations with good parts in the description highlited.

This is especially hard to argue since you haven't said just what you think constitutes a right-wing nation and what constitutes a left-wing nation.

TG: Does democratic socialist mean more of a moderate or liberal nation? I have both a socialist nation and have a powerhouse economy.

I don't think that there is any bias in NS. I think it depends on how you run your government.

I've missed a lot of posts this past three days so I will try and play catch up.

Qaaolchoura, your tactics of chaos and disruption is cowardice and shows what type of person you are. Answer me this, did NS invent the concepts of left/right wing policys? NO! To say that the debate over specific real world topics is of subject and in the wrong place is incorrect.

Please clarify what switch and bait is for me. I am ignorant and lazy. It would also help anyone out who doesn't know what it means.

Naleth, where do you live? I doubt on the border of the US and Mexico. I live in Texas, and know more about this subject than the average person, because of personnal experiences. I know several people who have more than one social security number, and have regular jobs. Do you have any idea on how drugs are smuggled into this country? Drugs are brought in in containers cinder-block size and larger. A gun breaks down into peices much smaller than the drug containers.

To say that right wing ideas are more correct than left is never going to be solved, it is an ideological debate.

The Scandanavian form of socailism has been the best model for socailism yet. If you enjoy paying taxes of 60% minimum and paying a 50% car tax, thats cool. You also get 80% of your salary if you are unemployed, thats cool. The reason why that would never work in America is because we are generally lazy and would do anything to not work, in Scandanavia it is rude and socailly unacceptable so everyone works.

Surprisingly you have more freedoms in America. While you can do certain drugs and drink earlier in Scand. you do not have as many economic freedoms. In Sweden the mother must take a 1 year vacation from work if you've had a baby, and you recieve 80% of your salary. On the other hand of that your employer has no option in this, they must pay you for a year, and not treat you any differently.

That lazy part of me has taken over and I'm done writting.

For the record, I live in Southern California, not quite 'on the border,' but I'm plenty close. I've been through it a couple times, actually.

No matter how disruptive it is, the fact of the matter is that debate on RL issue belongs in general.

Switch and bait is a tactic where you bring up an issue, then change the debate to another issue (ie NS is biased -> Gun Smuggling). The second debate is, at best, a tangent of the first. Usually, the objective is to win the second debate and imply victory in the first.

I reiterate: I would like some proof that the nation descriptors are biased towards left-wing states. I would also like to know what you consider 'right wing' and 'left wing' in NS terms.

That lazy part of me has taken over and I'm done writting.

If you don't mind, I'll add to that and then sit my lazy ass down, have another beer and enjoy the Eagles big win...

this is a game and it's played from the hearts. Noticible in the overpopulice of liberal college kids and others looking for a D&D replacement; people who have yet to recognize the real world is an ugly place. But NS is NS. And it's good. It reminds me of Enders Game when people of the world used the internet to speak their minds. Who know's, maybe Max's NS will open the door for the real Demosthenes and Locke.

The reality is the world Bush and Tony Blair are playing in and they have to play it real and wake th f- up everyone, there's evil out there and it ain't us.

I wish I could sit back and smoke it up (more than I can), but daughters get raped and boys go to war, and I'm not talking about the US but all over the damn world, most who can't and aren't playing NS. That's the world Bush is dealing with.

So go birds! E-A-G-L-E-S!

Go Bush in 2004!!!

Go Max! You are the man!! I live nowhere near Texas, but have a call in for an autograph copy from your Austin visit.

Let's go play more NS!

ps Anyone have a plan for helping Haitii, they are good people and need someone good to pay attention, unfortunately they do not have oil. (not contridictory, it's real, but I'd do anything [almost] to help)

pss Right and left has nothing to do about who thinks pot is ok...light one up and pass it RIGHT this way.

psss "Where there's a Wheel, there's a way."

I don't know why I feel I have to respond with the accusation of using switch and bait but I am. For the record I am not using it. I gave an example you gave a counter example that was misinformed or a blatant lie i.e. the border and smuggling and I set the record straight. I will never not challenge a wrong comment. You can not spew liberal rhetoric and spin with out being called on it. That’s the last I want to here about this switch and bait tactic as you call it.

You think this place is left wing? You havent seen anything......

Has anyone seens any blatent consevitive leanings in nations states issues? If so bring them to the for front.

I've missed a lot of posts this past three days so I will try and play catch up.
Well I suppose that thet exlains why you have still not responded to my reponse to you earlier.

Qaaolchoura, your tactics of chaos and disruption is cowardice and shows what type of person you are.
I'm flattered that you think so highly of me.

Erm. . . What sort of person does this show that I am? :?

It is nice to know that attempting to switch the topic when one finds oneself is losing is not cowardice, whereas attempting to maintain the topic at hand is.

Answer me this, did NS invent the concepts of left/right wing policys? NO! Of course it didn't whatever made you think that I was claimming that it did? As Tactical Grace just explained, NS attempts to avoid the left-right political spectrum because of it's oversimplicity.

To say that the debate over specific real world topics is of subject and in the wrong place is incorrect.Wait a second. . .

This is the forum for things relating to the NS game.

Didn't you just say that NS did not invent the left-right spectrum?

And as I explained to you, NS tries to avoid it. NS also attemts to avoid specific real life examples. When they are debated, they are dones so in the General forum.

How is a debate about smuggling guns across the US-Mexican and US-Canadian borders related to the NS game, as opposed to being a specific real-life politcal debate?

Please clarify what switch and bait is for me. I am ignorant and lazy. It would also help anyone out who doesn't know what it means.Bait and switch is when one starts a topic, and then chages it part of the way through, after their debating opponent has exhausted themselves providing a counter arguement (often one which they can not argue against), and continue this until their opponent is intellectualy worn down. Then they can (or at least this is the goal) acheive a façade of victory, or at very least a draw, where previously the outcome would have been worde for them.

Naleth, where do you live? I doubt on the border of the US and Mexico. I live in Texas, and know more about this subject than the average person, because of personnal experiences. I know several people who have more than one social security number, and have regular jobs. Do you have any idea on how drugs are smuggled into this country? Drugs are brought in in containers cinder-block size and larger. A gun breaks down into peices much smaller than the drug containers.
Why don't you continue this discussion on borders in the General forum?

To say that right wing ideas are more correct than left is never going to be solved, it is an ideological debate.
Obviously. I don't get the point of this comment. :?

And FYI, there are a lot more than two politcal viewpoints.

The Scandanavian form of socailism has been the best model for socailism yet. If you enjoy paying taxes of 60% minimum and paying a 50% car tax, thats cool. You also get 80% of your salary if you are unemployed, thats cool. The reason why that would never work in America is because we are generally lazy and would do anything to not work, in Scandanavia it is rude and socailly unacceptable so everyone works.As you just admitted that this is an ideological debate, why do you not continue this in the General forum?

Surprisingly you have more freedoms in America. While you can do certain drugs and drink earlier in Scand. you do not have as many economic freedoms. In Sweden the mother must take a 1 year vacation from work if you've had a baby, and you recieve 80% of your salary. On the other hand of that your employer has no option in this, they must pay you for a year, and not treat you any differently.
You have no much idea how much I'm itching to respond to this comment. Still, I'll ask you again, please continue this in the General forum. I obviously can not enforce any of these requests, but I would appreciate it if we were to get back to the topic at hand.

That lazy part of me has taken over and I'm done writting.
'K, being lazy myself (I bet that I'm lazier than you are :P ), I understand, but I hope that you will respond to my first repsonse to you (second pot of second thread), and to this post.

The income tax in nation states is not bi-partisan it is in fact partisan you have no control over how its implemented and the amount to be taken out of the populations pay check. further more it taxes the wealthy more than any other social class. By doing so it makes a nation left leaning no matter how conservative its run. This being said I have come to believe that nation states is partisan on other matters as well. An example of this is how a left leaning country’s national description is praised and is shown little fault but a right leaning country’s description shows a slanted spin to its left counter part.
(the poll got messed up my mistake please revote sorry)

NS does not allow you to choose your own tax, true, but it does by allow you to choose via issues, and tax cuts, as for the examples of a Left as praised and right as frowned upon, I have no immeadite comment.

Has anyone seens any blatent consevitive leanings in nations states issues? If so bring them to the for front.DId you not read my previous posts?

I guess that I have to get into politcal debate now, in order to make my point.

"Corporations Demand Political Say" "Death Penalty on Agenda" (ties in with Maxs belief that vote buying raises political freedoms, never mind that it gives the people less say and that the only socially progressive nations will pass laws against popular mandate. At least here in the States 'tis quite the opposite) "Reclaim the Streets"(you ban cars when most of us would rather make them more fuel efficient, kill the protesters, or subsidize industry), and then not by Max Barry "@@NAME@@ Without Cars Going Nowhere Fast" (you legalize fuel effecient cars only, and it is as if you legalized gas guzzling SUVs as far as the issue is concerned), "Diving for @@CURRENCY@@"(whatever some people may think, restricting people's right to steal gold from government ponds does not lower the amount of power that they have in choosing th government) and "Power Poblems Need Bright Solutions"(the first option gives you the options of solar and wind farms, but you can not chose, and then it chooses the highly inefficient wind farms for you), and several others if you need more.

The main reasons that I was relutanct to emphasise these biases was because I recognized that

other players may not see things the same way
there are some parts of NS that are "left-wing biased", although being socially progressive, and fiscally socialist, I see very little of it, unless I really try to be objective
the game is a parody
Many of these issues are submitted by other players

I have decided to follow your example, and ignore these four factors however (or at least attempt to), from this point onwards.

I don't know why I feel I have to respond with the accusation of using switch and bait but I am. For the record I am not using it. I gave an example you gave a counter example that was misinformed or a blatant lie i.e. the border and smuggling and I set the record straight. I will never not challenge a wrong comment. You can not spew liberal rhetoric and spin with out being called on it. That’s the last I want to here about this switch and bait tactic as you call it.
Huh, I spewing "liberal rhetoric" sez teh pot to teh keddal, yet at least I put disclaimers, admitting it was opinion where it was (not counting the mock rant which you failed to respond to), and tried to be fair to you.

I also managed to ignore your unbased rhetoric (much of which I would not cal right wing so much as nonsense), for quite a while. Despite this, now that you have shown your true colors, I will reveal that I can be nearly as nasty when required.

Has anyone seens any blatent consevitive leanings in nations states issues? If so bring them to the for front.
#12: Death Penalty on Agenda - Death Penalty = increased PFs
#17: Corporations Demand Political Say - Vote Buying = increased PFs
#41: Software Giant Stomps on Competition [Issue by 1 Infinite Loop] - INCREDIBLY painful economic damage if you choose the anti-corporate option
#49: Diving For @@CURRENCY@@s [Issue by Nogero] - Pro-envronment option lowers PFs
#76: Suits in Protest [Issue by Xibonia] - I've always thought this is a little pro-right-wing, but others could have different opinions

(for the full texts, see [url=http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53919]this[/url thread)
(I make these points because PFs are so hard to get and so easy to lose, and liberal and conservative nations [still no definition of what you think a conservative nation is] can both have them or not have them).

Fine, I give up.

Qaaolchoura, make a new thread for real life issues and I will move there.

Here is something we might all agree upon. There are obvious right issues, there are obvious left issues. It is pretty damn close to the middle. Even if it is a little left/right. Who cares its your country. Perhaps the reason why we see it different is because we only see what angers us and wer get defensive about it and will not admit we are wrong.

Food for thought.

Either way it goes. The Eagles suck. The Cowboys are better. :wink: We'll see next year.

Here is something we might all agree upon. There are obvious right issues, there are obvious left issues. It is pretty damn close to the middle. Even if it is a little left/right. Who cares its your country. Perhaps the reason why we see it different is because we only see what angers us and wer get defensive about it and will not admit we are wrong.
I'll agree with that :)

Qaaolchoura has alot of time on his hands taking up half a page lol. Though he/she is right we need to stay more focused on the debate at hand.

ps. ANGREY WHITE BOYS YOU SUCK!!!!! COWBOYS SUCK AND EAGLES RULE!!!

TG: Does democratic socialist mean more of a moderate or liberal nation? I have both a socialist nation and have a powerhouse economy.

I don't think that there is any bias in NS. I think it depends on how you run your government.
I would say that the Democratic Socialist category is a moderate one - a nation possessing a planned economy (nationalised industry and so on), but a good standard of political freedoms and/or civil rights. A few of my nations fit into it, and I usually do my issues in accordance with my broadly Centrist political position.

If you look at my nation page . . .

Tactical Grace

UN Category: Democratic Socialists
Civil Rights: Average
Economy: Good
Political Freedoms: Good

It is quite possible to have a nation with a much stronger planned economy. And despite apparent socialist characteristics, my country still has a "substantial private sector".

And I agree with you, there really isn't any bias. You can do pretty much what you want. The descriptors that appear can say anything, and are meant to be humorous.

The Scandanavian form of socailism has been the best model for socailism yet. If you enjoy paying taxes of 60% minimum and paying a 50% car tax, thats cool. You also get 80% of your salary if you are unemployed, thats cool. The reason why that would never work in America is because we are generally lazy and would do anything to not work, in Scandanavia it is rude and socailly unacceptable so everyone works.

Surprisingly you have more freedoms in America. While you can do certain drugs and drink earlier in Scand. you do not have as many economic freedoms. In Sweden the mother must take a 1 year vacation from work if you've had a baby, and you recieve 80% of your salary. On the other hand of that your employer has no option in this, they must pay you for a year, and not treat you any differently.

That lazy part of me has taken over and I'm done writting.

Damn, sounds like you need to get out of this place. Go live in the streets of Scandanavia. It all sounds cool, but it ain't like that. Before you go, I would suggest talking to someone there to see if the "perks" are as good as you advertise.

Yes, we have freedom in America. But we're not lazy. Maybe down there in Texas, still remembrin' the Alamo...the world has moved on...

Go birds.

Save Haiti.

Come on, its not that left-wing. Despite the book being avowedly anti-capiltalist, the nationstates webgame is intractable in its belief that my nations economy MUST be failing (down to the levels of developing countries) if I do such lawful regulating moves such as enforce anti-trust laws on big business and consistently vote through national welfare measures. It utterly believes that social welfare and the economy can not be reconciled. Its not left-wing. Its not even Keynsian. Its been sold up the river to the idea that the private sector must dominate public interest for the economy to be succesful. Boo-hiss.

and another thing (hmmm, a good rant is great) how can my nation have World Benchmark civil rights and yet be classified as a corrupt dictaorship? Nationstates explains "though the private lives of individuals are unoppressed, people outside the party cannot get too rich". I.E BEcause I have not supported big business while making sure peoples welfare and personal freedom are high...so my nation is CORRUPT and un-democratically elected? That just doesn't add up

Well Qaaolchoura I guess I have shown my true colors. I don't like spin and facts taken out of context. How is that bad that just makes me honest in the way I look at things. With all this political debating going I should state this is NOT a political debate were trying to find how or how not left leaning nation states is. There can be talk of politics but it seems its taking up the for front of the forum.

Yuengling Lager, you got me all wrong. The point I was making is that the Scandanavian system of gov't is working for them. Democracy and capitailism is working for us. I am lazy like everyone else, but I appreciate hard work. I am conservative, I think it's foolish to not listen to other people and to not admit when your wrong.

In Scand. they have a more equal wealth base and a higher avg. standerd of living. When I said that's cool, it meant, whatever if that is your bag, whatever. I prefer the good ol' USA. In America you can acheive a higher potential, I.E. Bill Gates. We are also the richest nation EVER! We also have several problems but it's all a trade off.

The point of my comment was to present a differnt view point, and I guessed people would draw the conclusion of everything is a trade off.

Rush Limbaugh was write about McNabb. He sucked. But, his character showed through, he played some damn good ball.

Yuengling Lager, you got me all wrong. The point I was making is that the Scandanavian system of gov't is working for them. Democracy and capitailism is working for us. I am lazy like everyone else, but I appreciate hard work. I am conservative, I think it's foolish to not listen to other people and to not admit when your wrong.

In Scand. they have a more equal wealth base and a higher avg. standerd of living. When I said that's cool, it meant, whatever if that is your bag, whatever. I prefer the good ol' USA. In America you can acheive a higher potential, I.E. Bill Gates. We are also the richest nation EVER! We also have several problems but it's all a trade off.

The point of my comment was to present a differnt view point, and I guessed people would draw the conclusion of everything is a trade off.

Rush Limbaugh was write about McNabb. He sucked. But, his character showed through, he played some damn good ball.

I hate the forums. They are so screwy. Anyone agree?

I hate the forums. They are so screwy. Anyone agree?
Indeed they are. I've been going on the forums less and less (in fact at some points, I've logged on, made note of which threads were replied to, and never bothered to check the responses. Unless they are fixed soon, I'll prossibly become entirely in-game.

Here is something we might all agree upon. There are obvious right issues, there are obvious left issues. It is pretty damn close to the middle. Even if it is a little left/right. Who cares its your country. Perhaps the reason why we see it different is because we only see what angers us and wer get defensive about it and will not admit we are wrong.
I'll agree with that :)
Ditto.

Thus a right-wing economy will never be imploded, even if they are in debt, teh economy has teh ability to pay it back, but choses not too for the sake of jobs and economy stimulation.


Umm, what about countries like Argentina?

Well Qaaolchoura I guess I have shown my true colors.My apologies. I was quite tired last night. "Showing your true colors" implies revealing character in a heated debate, a term that would more accurately fit me in this case than thee. :oops:

I don't like spin and facts taken out of context.Uh huh. Which explains why you were ignoring the four points that I made above. . .

How is that bad that just makes me honest in the way I look at things.In the way that you look at things. Most extremists, myself included beleive that everything that we believe is the truth. Possibly their are some things wrong with my beliefs, but I have no way of knowing which. This is why I generally keep them to myself, although other people, obviously, have other ideas.

With all this political debating going I should state this is NOT a political debate were trying to find how or how not left leaning nation states is.
THank you Cob. :D

There can be talk of politics but it seems its taking up the for front of the forum.
Huh? :?

There can be talk of politics but it seems its taking up the for front of the forum.
Huh? :?


What i meant is that debating schools of thought is not the main objective to this debate. What is the main objective is how left ns is. You can talk politics just don't let it take over the forum and get off subject.

A thought just occurd to me:

What does bi-partisanship have to do with how left or right leaning NS is? The left and right don't exclusivley belong to democrats (there are plenty of people who will argue that they aren't left-wing at all, in fact) and republicans. They still have them in other countries, after all.

Cob: What do you consider to be a left or right ing country. I have provided at least one interpretation of how left or right a country in NS is, and I have provided examples of how countries that are left have bad things said about them and countries that are right have good tings said about them. Examples of issues that have a right wing slant to either the question or outcome have been provided.

A new example: the new gun control issue has no "Outlaw Guns" stance available, something that only left wing nations will want.

-----
The Most Serene People's Republic of Naleth
"Life is a suicide mission"
Shameless Plug for Adelaide (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Adelaide)

The Debate The latest "Harry Potter" book to hit schools across The Great Cob has stirred up the greatest controversy yet.

"I quite enjoyed the book, until I got to the part where Harry summons evil demons to do his bidding," says religious leader Bill Rifkin. "Now that's just wrong. We need to restore some sense to this debate, by which I mean we should remove this book from the shelves, salt it thoroughly, and burn it."
[Accept]


Teachers union President Jazz Hamilton says, "Come on, the book is fantasy! And it's a damn good read. I'd like the government to issue a statement of support for our teachers and librarians, so kids can enjoy good books without interference from religious wackos, like CHRISTIANS."
[Accept]


Now that’s a bit much I'm a religious wacko because I believe in Christ. I think this issue should be deleted from the data base and the user who submitted it banned. I realized something every religion in the country is respected except Christianity. Its ok to bash Christ but no not Mohamad or Jews. Mohamad by the way was a pedophile and a rapist. I got that little tid bit from the history channel. All this Christ bashing sounds like left wing secularism at its worst/best. Makes me sick and I would kick the crap out of the punk who made that issue if geographically feasible.

what am suppoed to do if im on the far right wing but am NOT religius nut like you OR the a$$holes that attacked us..US INFANTRY 1984-1991

Cob:
If you want to write up a petition to ban Max Barry from his own site, you can give it a try, but don't expect to get very far with it (that's one of the original 30 issues). I think your reaction to that one line is a bit much. I wouldn't quite call it "All this Christ bashing" as so far you've shown me only one instance that is fairly mild. I will admit there are other issue, but there is no more a pattern of "Christ Bashing" (I don't think he makes an appearance in any issues, funny enough), then there is of "Liberal Bashing."

That asside, the issues are ment to represent veiw points you may not entirely agree with, as well as be a little extreme in the proccess. Do you deny that there are people out there who would say that? The issue here is a "Censor the book because it is un-Christian" or "Keep Christians from censoring the book" ... there isn't another choice. Either you agree with the Christian side or the other (presumably anti-Christian) side. No other choice.

On the real world complaints: Christianity is the most visible religion in western society, it gets the most attention. Sort of like how the current president gets the most bashing. There are Muslim, Hindu, and Jewish lobbying groups, I'm sure, but they are not nearly as many and not nearly as loud as the Christian ones. The comment about Mohammed is entirely off topic, and once again: If you want to debate real world issues, go to general.

Blastem: I would say choose on each issue in a case by case basis. If by "far right" you mean the smal government, free market right, then you can (quite easilly) create a free-market society in which religion plays very little role. If you mean something else, then try to build that kind of government. There are several kinds of governments in NS, and none of them are fundamentally theocratic.

Naleth...... thank you for your good responce..what i ment is that i stay and vote on the right for some things( iv never voted demo) ..but religious people of any extreme are what we are fighting against....im tired of the so called repressed religions...i replied to the guy above as he felt that christanity was being repressed..i say screw him..(MHO) just i say that to any muslem OR any other extremist..........i serverd..US INFANTRY 1984-1991...............btw can you tell me what my nation stae (game) gets as a benni for population expansion?

I'm a new player on nationstates, and I figure that I'm a pretty open-minded player. I started with a New York Time Democracy, then gone to Civil Rights Lovefest, then to Anarchy, then to Capitalist Paridise, then to Inoffensive Centrist Democracy, and now I'm with a left-leaning college state. Throughout this I've mostly raised the freedoms of my country, however I made drastic changes once my country was defined as an anarchy. On a side note I have an all-consuming economy which seems to disprove the theory that planned or mixed economies are unavoidably poor.

My opinion is that whilst the game may seem biased, that may be more to do with the fact that the user is biased more than anything else. If you play nationstates with an open mind and respect for right and left-wing views, your country can very easily go either way. But if you look at the issues with a burning hatred for socialism or a deep suspicion of capitalism then obviously your government is going to be very far-fatched. The issues I've had have been a wide range of things, from vote buying to allowing racist speeches to giving the rich titles. And the viewpoints have always been varied. I've been playing with a mix of authoritarian, libertarian, left and right-wing responses when I deemed appropriate and I feel that I have been rewarded with a mostly good country.

Blastem: If I understand what you're saying right, you want to know about the population growth rates. Population growth is linear, except near the beggining (where you are). For the first bit (5->10 Mil), it increases at 1m per day. After that, it goes up to something like 3-5m untill you reach a certain point (that I don't remember), and after that it goes up again to 5-8m for the rest of your nation's existance. There might be another step (between 1m and 3-5m) that I forgot ... but other then that nothing affects population growth (including issue choices).

Naleth.....thanks alot for the answer all is clear now

This thread is still alive?

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/IGNOREMK-V-2.JPG

This thread is still alive?

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/IGNOREMK-V-2.JPG
Yup
If that's going to be your siggy pic Goober. . .

This thread is still alive?

<snip>
Yup
If that's going to be your siggy pic Goober. . .

Why would I have an I.G.N.O.R.E. cannon as a sig pic?

I'm a new player on nationstates, and I figure that I'm a pretty open-minded player. I started with a New York Time Democracy, then gone to Civil Rights Lovefest, then to Anarchy, then to Capitalist Paridise, then to Inoffensive Centrist Democracy, and now I'm with a left-leaning college state. Throughout this I've mostly raised the freedoms of my country, however I made drastic changes once my country was defined as an anarchy. On a side note I have an all-consuming economy which seems to disprove the theory that planned or mixed economies are unavoidably poor.

My opinion is that whilst the game may seem biased, that may be more to do with the fact that the user is biased more than anything else. If you play nationstates with an open mind and respect for right and left-wing views, your country can very easily go either way. But if you look at the issues with a burning hatred for socialism or a deep suspicion of capitalism then obviously your government is going to be very far-fatched. The issues I've had have been a wide range of things, from vote buying to allowing racist speeches to giving the rich titles. And the viewpoints have always been varied. I've been playing with a mix of authoritarian, libertarian, left and right-wing responses when I deemed appropriate and I feel that I have been rewarded with a mostly good country.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me I started out as a Corporate Police State, Then Psychotic Dictatorship. Then Corrupt Dictatorship but now i'm Democratic Socialist. It really depends on how you want to play the game.

I would say that the Democratic Socialist category is a moderate one - a nation possessing a planned economy (nationalised industry and so on), but a good standard of political freedoms and/or civil rights. A few of my nations fit into it, and I usually do my issues in accordance with my broadly Centrist political position.

If you look at my nation page . . .

Tactical Grace

UN Category: Democratic Socialists
Civil Rights: Average
Economy: Good
Political Freedoms: Good

It is quite possible to have a nation with a much stronger planned economy. And despite apparent socialist characteristics, my country still has a "substantial private sector".

And I agree with you, there really isn't any bias. You can do pretty much what you want. The descriptors that appear can say anything, and are meant to be humorous.

I will admit that I actually consider myself a socialist but generally I would vote for the Green Party. I find it bizzare that I have 100% tax rate and private industry is illegal but I have a powerhouse economy. I don't think many Americans would consider any Socialistic government as moderate but I think that that is more European. I'm trying to think of what (real) nation would be considered "Democratic Socialist". I'm thinking Canada or maybe Germany or even Japan. Those nations have socialistic tendencies but with real strong economies.

This thread is still alive?

<snip>
Yup
If that's going to be your siggy pic Goober. . .

Why would I have an I.G.N.O.R.E. cannon as a sig pic?
That's an IGNORE Cannon? :0 I thought that you cou;dn't use those for OOC threads. . .

On the real world complaints: Christianity is the most visible religion in western society, it gets the most attention. Sort of like how the current president gets the most bashing. There are Muslim, Hindu, and Jewish lobbying groups, I'm sure, but they are not nearly as many and not nearly as loud as the Christian ones. The comment about Mohammed is entirely off topic, and once again: If you want to debate real world issues, go to general.



Thats true I was just inraged I wont make the same mistake. Though the comment about Christains was inapropriate.

what am suppoed to do if im on the far right wing but am NOT religius nut like you OR the a$$holes that attacked us..US INFANTRY 1984-1991

I'm not a religious nut I hardly go to church the topic just struck a nerve. As for what your supposed to do just air your opinions (keep to the forums issue). We'll see where the pieces fall.

I forgot who asked me what I think conservative means well here it is. My understanding of conservatism is and beliefs are as follows.

1. Small government

2. Special interest groups are killing this country (ACLU vs Christmas) (ACLU vs Boy Scouts of America, ect.)

3. Less spending better funds management

4. I don't impose my life style on anyone and don't expect anyone’s to be imposed upon me

5. Less progressive. Things are fine as they are

6. Appose socialism and communism (big government)

7. Abortion and especially 3rd trimester abortions should be outlawed (for those who don't know 3rd trimester abortions kill full term babies by crushing their skulls when a c-section could be given instead which wouldn’t kill the baby.) in short pro-life.

Yuengling Lager, you got me all wrong...

...Rush Limbaugh was write about McNabb. He sucked. But, his character showed through, he played some damn good ball.

I apoligize Mr. Angry Boy, I got you wrong. We were arguing something that has too many flavors...

...I wish Mr. Cob realized this before he brought religion into the mix (now I'll have to post my McNabb thoughts separately.

Something wrong Mr. Cob, bringin up Christ then throwin' out threats...very foolish, read about Christ the man, not the fictional savior, he's still good, try to be like him, for Christs's sake...God Dammit!

Everyone needs to realize that religion is like snowcone flavors, everyone has favorites...but realize there are no favorites, ...to quote the great Brian Regan:

"Grape or cherry?
They're both favorites
So either one is good
If they have both, I'll get grape, because that's a little more favorite.
But if they don't have grape it's fine
'cause cherry is a favorite too.
It's like another favorite, but not as much...not as much favorite
But they're both good."

It's never an argument you can win. not even with yourself.

Get over yourself and realize everyone has a favorite and their favorite book of fiction. Anything Bible related should be discussed in a "Best Fiction" thread. Any other favorites Mr. Cob?

Now to put my McNabb thoughts together...

(I'm pretending I didn't see the word abortion in this thread)

Yuengling Lager, you got me all wrong...

...Rush Limbaugh was write about McNabb. He sucked. But, his character showed through, he played some damn good ball.

Rush is a jackass. You know more about football than Rush, don't lower yourself and use him as a crutch. If you have your own opinion, I respect it.

McNabb's going to his third NFC Championship in three years. If he loses this one, I'll concede, he's good but not great. If he moves on, he moves a notch up in my book. He has more positive stats than negative. But it's all about this Sunday's game and going to next round.

Go birds.