NationStates Jolt Archive

After twelve years of production, thirty years of frontline service as a conventional heavy attack submarine of the NDOTJ, and fifteen years as a reserve submersible in the fleet, the NDOTJ announced today a plan to "scrap or sell" 67 of the 71 remaining vessels in the old Barracuda class attack submarine.

Specifications:
Length: 302'
Beam: 26'
Mean Draft:18'
Test Depth: 1000'
Displacement: 1760 tons (2370 submerged)
Armament: 5" gun, 2 paired 20mm cannon, QuadRoc SA missile system, 6 forward torpedo tubes, 3 aft torpedo tubes.
Crew: 38
Rated Speed: 26 kts, 11 kts submerged.

It is unclear at this point in time if any buyers for the 25-45 year old conventional subs have been lined up, but in spite of being officially classed as obsolete, they remain capable enough to provide a substantial threat to modern vessels, or be a substantial asset to many smaller, less technologically developed countries.

The Shildonian Museum of Naval History has started a fundraising campaign to raise the neccesary funds to purchase one of the Barracudas.
Donations should be sent to:
Barracuda Fundraising Campaign,
Shildonian Museum of Naval History,
The Promenade,
Beckmouth

Calarca has never bothered to obtain or manufacture submarines, with several designs now on the drawing boards we wish to purchase cheap old subs to train crews on until such time as we actually manufacture modern subs to fight with.

Please quote price for 30 Submarines plus the services of instructors.



OOC: I'm looking for line drawings and Stats of the U212 and U214 class subs, and will be putting a Hydrocarbon Cracker Fuel cell system in. put in Shortchain Hydrocarbons such as High octane Avgas and Oxy, and get out Ethanol and Co2 + other compounds. Also looking for specs and chem for that system, it's different to the normal hydrogen 2(H2)+O2=2(H2O) fuel cell system. less oxygen for one, and the ethanol can be drunk, something sailors would be ethusiastic about. Vodka a la Davy Jones...

Please quote price for 30 Submarines plus the services of instructors.


For Calarca, we may quietly quote a tentative price of approximately $1.4B*, depending on current exchange rates and resource valuations (assuming that our instructors will only have to work for a short length of time, of course.)

*Dirt cheap. We are surplus/salvaging them, after all. The engine systems are also very amenable to modifications, I might add OOCly.

Please quote price for 30 Submarines plus the services of instructors.


For Calarca, we may quietly quote a tentative price of approximately $1.4B*, depending on current exchange rates and resource valuations (assuming that our instructors will only have to work for a short length of time, of course.)

*Dirt cheap. We are surplus/salvaging them, after all. The engine systems are also very amenable to modifications, I might add OOCly.

Deal, instructors will be needed for 3 weeks to train the first two crews, these will then take over training for all the rest.

Money Wired.

OOCly, Once finished building our own designs, which will probably be a while, I'll probably look at refitting these as SpecOp boats with a few squads of Special Boats Service commandos. they may not be fast, or compared to modern ships, stealthy, but they can drop off troops and pick them up again where no-ones looking.

The Kingdom of Crookfur would like to place an order for 12 of these vessels.

But we would require some more info on electronics etc.
Of course any we purchase will under go substancial modifications.

I would like to purcahse the reamining Submarines. As well as the fee of your choice, I will decrease Tariffs between our countries. Also, I am willing to provice Medical Supplies to you in War Time.


Prime Minister Varde
Redlenin

The Kingdom of Crookfur would like to place an order for 12 of these vessels.

But we would require some more info on electronics etc.
Of course any we purchase will under go substancial modifications.

The Barracuda class is equipped with enhanced* passive and active sonar systems as well as radar, radar detection, and some primitive radar jamming systems (for when on the surface), radio systems, internal communications and lighting systems. Current dampening for electric and [bio]diesel motors is structurally based, if efficient. Topside targeting systems for gun and persicope include low light, IR, and magnification enhancements for more recently overhauled Barracudas, and the 21" torpedo tubes are fully compatible with modern guidance systems.


Deal, instructors will be needed for 3 weeks to train the first two crews, these will then take over training for all the rest.

Money Wired.

OOCly, Once finished building our own designs, which will probably be a while, I'll probably look at refitting these as SpecOp boats with a few squads of Special Boats Service commandos. they may not be fast, or compared to modern ships, stealthy, but they can drop off troops and pick them up again where no-ones looking.

We confirm.

OOC: In such case, removing some torpedo/mine storage would probably be the way to go, along with probably cutting ammunition supplies. They would be quite quiet enough for spec ops, and stealthier than most of the similarly sized ships in active service - all but the most modern stealth-built ships.

I would like to purcahse the reamining Submarines. As well as the fee of your choice, I will decrease Tariffs between our countries. Also, I am willing to provice Medical Supplies to you in War Time.

That would appear to be about 24 of them if the Shildonian Museum's fundraising campaign pulls through. As the last to order, a couple of those ships may require substantial overhauls.

*Not state-of-the-art NDOTJ, nor are we talking about powerful computers, by and large, if very sensitive equipment. As a small note, most of the integral electronics does not utilize transistors (yes, you will see vacuum tubes in some systems.)

Very well. I still wish to purcahse them. Do we have a deal?

Very well. I still wish to purcahse them. Do we have a deal?

Yes. Consider it done.

Very well. I still wish to purcahse them. Do we have a deal?

Yes. Consider it done.

Ummm....

6 million people... fragile economy... new country.... cost of running a sub per year... around $15,000,000... times 30 subs.... total yearly cost... $450,000,000....
according to the budget calculator I downloaded and use for my country they have a GDP of about 4.8 Billion Dollars.

can someone say godmod?

Good point... please hold a minute while I check some figures.

EDIT: My Results:

Depending on the nitty gritty of things (and what scale you consider for economies), Redlenin could have an military budget equivalent to roughly $1.5B (Different people use vastly different figures regarding GDP per capita on the lower economy ranges. Personally, less than $1,000 per capita GDP equivalent I regard as Imploded range, so it makes sense to me to estimate $2500 per year as a reasonably Fragile economy. His government looks to control about half his economy and spend perhaps a tenth (possibly more) - which would then be about $1.5B. (Add up the math.)

The last 24 subs would run a price ranging out to around $900M to acquire, and probably another $100M to refit. Definitely blowing out on acquisition budget there... although that depends some on resource valuation, how much time we in Tahar Joblis would let for stretch pay. Annual operating costs for SS-594 Permit class, recently retired by the US Navy, run to around $10M (and I estimate based on naval payroll and benefits that about half that is personnel related); payroll costs for the Barracuda here will be a fraction of that, which would more than make up for fuel expenditures - both due to the smaller crew (38 vs 143), sub size (nearly half the displacement), and lower payroll rates in a country with a Fragile economy. Let's throw in lots of repairs and some torpedo usage and call it $8M/year for the Barracuda - that would be about $200M/year for the entire sub fleet.

If he pays me for it over 5 years, ICly speaking, that would be $400M/year, which looks to pretty much consume his naval budget. If I undercharge, which seems quite feasible given what he's offering (medical aid in times of war, long term good trade relations) then it's even theoretically possible for him to take a big hit and pay for them with resources on hand.

In other words, possible, but expensive in relative terms. If he wants, he can drop to 9 submarines, but he can still afford it if he really wants them... which would be a good investment, militarily speaking.

Im new at this so you'll have to exscuse any mistakes. I thought we would have large defence budget as there is mandatory military enlistment and such. Id like to buy as many as I can.

I would say you can probobly afford 5 of them. I understand that you are new at this, I was once that way about 2 weeks ago.

Thanks for understanding. I suppose 5 will do for a new nation. I mean, look at Canada. They have 4. Not all of them are even operational yet.

Read up. You can take 9 if you want, or understand that 24 subs will blow your budget for a while. These are considerably cheaper, smaller, and require fewer personnel than any attack subs in the US nuclear fleet... I am surplusing them.

The Kingdom of Crookfur confirms our order and wires the funds.

Thanks for understanding. I suppose 5 will do for a new nation. I mean, look at Canada. They have 4. Not all of them are even operational yet.

Aussie has 4 NEW ones and they're a lot smaller than Canada.

But As I have 450M+ pop on Frightening economy I can afford to be a patronising paternalistic bore like the USA as in relation to Isreal. SO heres some cash to buy the 24. *Hands over a cargo container of used, $20 bills siezed from drug tycoons in a recent bust.*

Oh, and heres some for the fundraising campaign Shildonia. *Posts a few mil $ by courier.*

Now All I have to do is yank your chains every so often... :twisted:

Does that mean I dont get to buy any submarines? (I just woke up. Bare with me here.)

Very well. I still wish to purcahse them. Do we have a deal?

Yes. Consider it done.

Ummm....

6 million people... fragile economy... new country.... cost of running a sub per year... around $15,000,000... times 30 subs.... total yearly cost... $450,000,000....
according to the budget calculator I downloaded and use for my country they have a GDP of about 4.8 Billion Dollars.

can someone say godmod?

budget calculator? Where did you get that from?

Does that mean I dont get to buy any submarines? (I just woke up. Bare with me here.)

Yes, you can indeed buy them - particularly with big and mean over there propping you up with some military funding aid. Expect, however, that they will consume most of your annual naval budget in upgrades and operational costs for a while, until you get a bit larger.

Uncle Noel, I don't particularly recommend any of the budget calculators I've seen for NS so far, and I've seen quite a number. Most lend themselves to abuse, and I often find some of the econ category ranges substantially off compared to RL statistical comparisons.

Thanks to the generous donation from Calarca, and several other donations from numerous Shildonian businesses, the Shildonian Museum of Naval History has raised sufficient funds to purchase one of the Baracudas. If either Calarca or Tahar Joblis would like to send a representative to visit the museum we would be honoured to show them around.

Jacob Russell,
Curator Shildonian Museum of Naval History

I would like to purchase the submarines. Have of the remaining ones. A sister nation would like to purchase the rest.

Is my order accepted?

Sorry about being a pain i just like to know how thigns stand.

Does that mean I dont get to buy any submarines? (I just woke up. Bare with me here.)

'Course you can buy them, unless your corrupt govt officials sidetrack the cargo container.

Theres a budget calc somewhere in the newbie sticky, look under economics or search using "GDP Calculator" in the keywords field.

I would likr to buy Plaines

I would likr to buy Plaines

Is my order accepted?

Sorry about being a pain i just like to know how thigns stand.

Yes, it is, and I might mention that with Redlenin working things out, there will be no more of the old Barracudas to export. (There is now a new (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4650&start=200) Barracuda class for my navy, but it's not available for export. Hardly. Dang thing costs me more than most of my carriers do - initial cost, that is - and I haven't built many yet.)

Neitzcheans, I could sell you some TJB-1 Mandrakes, TJF-3 Mongooses, TJF-5 Albatrosses, or TJF-6 Gnats at roughly $8M, $2M, $5M, and $250,000 each. If you are still interested, drop a line in this thread or my main thread (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4650&start=200), where you can also find the specs for the planes in question.

many thanks.

Does that mean I dont get to buy any submarines? (I just woke up. Bare with me here.)

Yes, you can indeed buy them - particularly with big and mean over there propping you up with some military funding aid. Expect, however, that they will consume most of your annual naval budget in upgrades and operational costs for a while, until you get a bit larger.

Uncle Noel, I don't particularly recommend any of the budget calculators I've seen for NS so far, and I've seen quite a number. Most lend themselves to abuse, and I often find some of the econ category ranges substantially off compared to RL statistical comparisons.

So how do you work out money? As a newbie it is very confusing.

Does that mean I dont get to buy any submarines? (I just woke up. Bare with me here.)

Yes, you can indeed buy them - particularly with big and mean over there propping you up with some military funding aid. Expect, however, that they will consume most of your annual naval budget in upgrades and operational costs for a while, until you get a bit larger.

Uncle Noel, I don't particularly recommend any of the budget calculators I've seen for NS so far, and I've seen quite a number. Most lend themselves to abuse, and I often find some of the econ category ranges substantially off compared to RL statistical comparisons.

So how do you work out money? As a newbie it is very confusing.

Each economy type has a reading as your average earnings, Frightening is $35,000 per capita, imploded... umm. $100 I think. Multiply that by your pop, i.e. I'm 35,000 X 460Mil. then divide by your taxes. so I'd be (35000 X 460,000,000) / 68% = A shitload of cash

from that you get your governments budget.

There are a lot of spreadsheets out there, and online Calculators made by many diff people. as I said before, it would pay to check the newbie sticky in the Nationstates forum.

OOC:

Generally, not everybody agrees about which categories are what GDP per capita, but generally take GDP per capita from econ category, multiply by population (to get raw GDP), multiply that by how much is spent by the government, and figure what percentages of that are, in turn, discretionary spending that would go in each category of expenditure (some areas, like social services, take up lots of money; others, like enviromental concentrations, tend to show up in regulations and take smaller chunks of the budget relative to rated importance).

In the end, that will give you a figure for military budget range; that leaves efficiency rating and maintainance and payroll vs acquisition. Typically, maintainance and payroll combine to most of the military budget...

Most people tend to ignore efficiency ratings - indicators such as "morass" "corrupt" and so on that affect how well you can spend money.

Always feel free to ask around; I help with estimates myself.