NationStates Jolt Archive

I was asked (a while back now) to make a judgement on whether swastikas are acceptable to use in nation flags.

After consideration, I've decided: No.

Players who use swastikas in their nation flags should change them.

While this site generally allows for political debate and discussion, nations are held to a higher standard than forum posts, because there is no right of reply. An offensive post can be debated -- hopefully to the point where the poster learns something -- but an offensive flag, motto, or nation name just sits there.

The swastika is intricately associated with the Holocaust in public consciousness, and, as one of the greatest tragedies of the last century, it can reasonably be considered offensive for players to appear to endorse or celebrate it.

I understand that at least a few players who use swastikas in their flags do not intend this outcome, and can probably give me a long history lesson on the symbol; nevertheless, that is not the message the image sends.

Can you check my flag?? Its a nazi flag, but its the military flag, and theres no swaztika, only an eagle and a black war cross.

My flag was Voted on by the Kizer...they say it's for the Millitary and to remind us that we used to be Germans and what happened in WW2

the nazi flag is clock-wise, can we have them in an anti clockwise direction?

the nazi flag is clock-wise, can we have them in an anti clockwise direction?

That would send the same evil, racist message.

The Swastika, is an ancient religious symbol.

Do you plan to outlaw a crucifix from your game too?

If I want to use a Star if David is that okay?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The swastika was used, and is still used in some circles, by Buddhists, Jains, and others as a holy symbol. Hitler just ripped it off from them and perverted it.

I guess we could assume that only Nazi swastikas have been condemned. But won't this just drive them underground, as such bans have done elsehwere? They now have a whole arcane system of symbols connected with their hateful ways, and used as substitutes where the swastika is unallowed; shall those be banned as well?

the nazi flag is clock-wise, can we have them in an anti clockwise direction?

That would send the same evil, racist message.

No -- the reverse is hindu/jain/buddhist and a number of other cultures... I would think if used in a country made in that context (If one were to say, create The Holy empire of Ahimsa) this should be allowed.

Of course, that's up to Violet and the mods to judge. :) Unfortunatly the lasting effects of the nazi era had it so that any swastika in western eyes has been tarnished (as have other things). SO many issues...

Greuesse!
~ Tricia~
German Studies Kid with comparative religion knowledge...

I respect the ruling that Violet posted.
While the black swastika in a white circle on the red flag is the national political flag of WW2 Germany, the swastika was used in other ways as well. The Allied powers removed swastikas anywhere they saw them, most notably the large bronze eagle and swastika over the Brandenburg Gate in berlin. :oops:
:?: The air force and armored divisions of Germany did use a different symbol, the black cross with white stripes. While it is not a swastika, many people remember seeing their villages flattened by vehicles bearing this mark. I would use it but it is no improvement as far as hate goes.
The german military units did have their own symbols, just as the US army of WW2 had unit patches. As long as it doesnt come from the VA, SA, or death's head (totenkopf) wing of the SS I would use it for my own country.. pending approval from Nation States. However that does not fit the personality of Vanadu as I've made it.

:idea:
To complete our knowledge of the fascist trilogy, remember that the Italian armed forces used a triple bundle of wheat stalks called a fasces , which is where we got the word fascism. The red and white spoked rising sun flag was Japan's imperial symbol and should be regarded as equally hateful, especially to those who suffered in the Philippines or China.
I have less universal agreement on this point, but I would also ban communist symbols, especially from the USSR prior to 1990. Communism is still an active ideology in the world and not everyone hates it as they do fascism (which itself has a few ignorant supporters). However the communists of the 20th century are responsible for as many millions dead through execution and genocide as the WW2 fascists.

Sorry - when the admin speaks - the discussion ends.

(or so it should be)

Get them swastika's out of the flags.

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Suppose [violet] allowed reverse swastikas.

There are maybe a couple of dozen Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains here who want to put reverse swastikas on their flags as a symbol of their beliefs.

There are several hundred radical racists here who would use the loopholes to push their hate-filled beliefs.

Who would really benefit here?

No.

Folks would still use the reversed swastika's to send Nazi messages.

Tiz better to cut them off completely.

The whole "omelet-egg" theory.

They will be abused no matter what way they spin - so - they get taken away.

End of story.

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The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh . Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika could be found in many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe.

By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

China - wan
England - fylfot
Germany - Hakenkreuz
Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also had long used the symbol of the swastika.

The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh . Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika could be found in many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe.

By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

China - wan
England - fylfot
Germany - Hakenkreuz
Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also had long used the symbol of the swastika.

That doesn't excuse the hyper-racists who are practically the only people who use it now.

will we now ban the japanese world war II flag? http://mmstn05.sac2.fastsearch.net:80/00cbb8b1000007ea00000fd10000b08a it is as has been pointed out, represents just as hateful a message as a nazi swastika.

No - the japanese flag does not send out the same hateful message as the Nazi swastika.


It's assinine to compare the two.

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Goddamn Nazis, they ruined everything. They killed millions of people in horrible ways, they levelled Europe, the tarnished Germany's history forever, they gave the commies an excuse to take over eastern Europe, and not to mention their lesser crimes (which piss me off on a less powerful and more esoteric level): They ruined Zepplins for us all *sigh*, they ruined those leather knee boots, they ruined swastikas, they ruined world-domination, they ruined tiny mustaches, they ruined invading France, and they just down right ruined EVIL for us all by taking it WAY too far. I can deal with some comic-book villain/tieing the woman to the train tracks evil, but Jesus Christ of latter day saints! The Nazis ruined all of that and all we got out of the whole mess was a few good movies, the Wolfenstein games, and this lousy T-shirt.

will we now ban the japanese world war II flag? http://mmstn05.sac2.fastsearch.net:80/00cbb8b1000007ea00000fd10000b08a it is as has been pointed out, represents just as hateful a message as a nazi swastika.

No, I presume it will not be banned. The reason the swastika is banned is because it is used by racist Neo-Nazis.

Are there any Neo-Tojoans who say the Rape of Nanking never happened? No. So the use of the WWII Japanese battle flag is acceptable.

I can think of many nations including the United States that have committed atrocities.

None of which come close to the horror of the ovens.

Ranting aside. The swastika stands for evil. Blame whomever you want - but I for one am happy that it's been banned.

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[quote="Lemmingcus Meenicus"]No - the japanese flag does not send out the same hateful message as the Nazi swastika.


It's assinine to compare the two. [/]quote

so allies of the nazis are okay, just not the nazis themselves?
or is your objection to common hate symbols, not all hate symbols (ask the world war II australian diggers what the japanese world war II flag represents to them) can i have the black celtic cross on a white background?, it represents white power but its not popular and wasnt originally meant to be hateful. can i have the sun cross? the image is used to get around anti-nazi-image laws in europe. but i is not common, and it was not orginally racist but it exists. are these acceptable symbols to you? or are you only concerned with the obvious. im just trying to work out why you dont stand up against non-nazi symbols of hate, that have the same loop-holes as the swastika

In response to questions: I'm only addressing the swastika here. I understand that there are many other symbols that are offensive to other people, and it's arbritrary to draw a line in the sand. Nevertheless, that's what needs to be done.

Reverse swastikas are prohibited, as are yellow swastikas, or 3D swastikas, or anything else that looks an awful lot like a swastika.

I find it disappointing that because of one freak historical incident and the lingering effects thereof have resulted in a massive coverup and restriction of free speech. I know that there are extremists, particularly using this logo, but it's disappointing (almost to the point of disgust at the perversion the symbol has undergone) that a simple game such as this has to ban such things, merely due to one interpretation.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

To merely state that the swastika represents the core of hatred and evil is, for the most part, wrong. Hatred is an emotion, not a flag symbol. It should be known as well that Hitler's original concept for it was possibly not of utter hatred but instead that it being a symbol of pride and invincibility of a "new Germany", especially one that can attract the masses, the past actions of him and his party is the reason that it is viewed as one of the many symbols of evil to this date.

Yes, I am against what was done against those that fell victim to the concentration camps such as Auschwitz, but what of those who died from Stalin's Purges? How about those brutally tortured and killed by the Japanese? And how about the Pol Pot concentration camps when Cambodia fell to communism? These actions were comitted from paranoia as well as hatred toward something that the government did not like. I know someone will definitely make a good arguement of this and I commend them, this is just my opinion.

Another statement: From the ruling era of Imperial Japan up to the end of WWII, Korea had been under direct Japanese rule. Between those long years, the Japanese attempted to completely annihilate the existance of Korean culture by forcing those to speak, read, and write Japanese and those who defied such were tortured and killed. They unjustly took the lands belonged to Korean commoners and gave them to wealthy Japanese merchants and as well treated them as "inferior beings". So my question is, if you ban the swastika symbol because of what Nazi Germany had done to the Jews and other victims for 7-8 years. Will you do the same for the Japanese Imperial flag for its crimes against the Korean people for the hundreds of years? This part is a response to Kandarin's statement that the Imperial flag will most likely not be banned. Second: I am not stating any statement against such action, if made law I will then follow, but I wish to question the limitation of this decision.

It would seem to hearken back to an argument I had once regariding my particular school's activities regarding the Holocaust on the Jewish rmemberance day for such.

I find it disappointing that the Holocaust is so much more "offensive" than any of the above things Dresden mentions, including but not limited to:

- The Rape of Nanking (And World War II in general by the Japanese)
- Pol Pot
- Stalin's Gulags
- The Brutality of the Early Chinese Government as a whole
- the Crusades (in which Christians pretty much attacked with little logical reasoning, all Muslims)

I find more offense in the fact that one particular special-interest group gets such demands and "offenses made against them" met than others who have experienced equally horrible wrongs.

Indeed, considering the number of grievous wrongs (Stalin, Vietnam, Pol Pot, China) that have been committed under the hammer and sickle, is it not logical to "ban" that as well (while we remain on the topic of banning symbols that hearken up genocide)?

It would seem to hearken back to an argument I had once regariding my particular school's activities regarding the Holocaust on the Jewish rmemberance day for such.

I find it disappointing that the Holocaust is so much more "offensive" than any of the above things Dresden mentions, including but not limited to:

- The Rape of Nanking (And World War II in general by the Japanese)
- Pol Pot
- Stalin's Gulags
- The Brutality of the Early Chinese Government as a whole
- the Crusades (in which Christians pretty much attacked with little logical reasoning, all Muslims)

I find more offense in the fact that one particular special-interest group gets such demands and "offenses made against them" met than others who have experienced equally horrible wrongs.

I will state my agreement with what Mac Anu has recently posted.

The issue isn't what we *should* do, or whether the swastika under other forms is a non-nazi symbol. Of course it is - the difference is that it's a symbol which has been hijacked in numerous ways, both by the nazis and, yes, by people who are happy to associate it with representing 'evil'.

There comes a point where [violet] and [dredd] will get bombarded with continual complaints and telegrams about swastikas on flags - it's still illegal in Germany, for example. Whilst many of the current youthful generation are happily able to use it in RP to represent fasicm and use freedom of speech to justify why they should be allowed to do it, there are others who view the symbol as atrocious.

And yes, the US flag is seen by a fair few non-Americans to be equally heinous, but the issue is that people will make comments in the forums about those kinds of issues, and will generate discussion and argument. With a swastika, we get deluges of complaints and, it wouldn't surprise me, people threatening to sue Max Barry for daring to allow freedom of speech which they don't agree with.

Okay, maybe you're being more 'mature' by not getting worked up about its use or representations - or maybe you're just being either deliberately or unintentionally insensitive to those who find it very offensive indeed, and far more so than other 'similar' icons.

]and, it wouldn't surprise me, people threatening to sue Max Barry for daring to allow freedom of speech which they don't agree with.

It's a shame that so few people actually acknowledge and support free speech nowadays. Everyone else just hates it. *sigh* Just another step on the long road to an eventual 1984-like atmosphere. Not that I blame [violet] for this. I'm more disappointed with the people who are mindless enough to demand the banning of its use, and thus restrict our sacred right to free speech.

How about this: if you have a flag, but feel as though it may be viewed as some to be racist or otherwise hateful, DON'T USE IT. You can make your own, you know.

It's quite understandable (I would not consider using the swastika in any form except for role-playing purposes (say, if my country got taken over by an army of neo-nazi's and the massive libertarian factions of my populace would rise against them creating a civil-war and so forth)). The problem though is the fact that this in effect limits political diversity as well as free speech, not to mention the fact that it's a rather arbitrary decision with no empirical support through the banning of other offensive symbols from history (are we going to ban the Confederate flag due to its associations with the KKK and thus white-power movements?).

People wouldn't ban the hammer and sickle because that is the flag of a nation, not just an ideology. I know the swastika has been used for religions too, but it is not the flag of one particular nation, and whether we like it or not, it brings up the image of hatred and evil. When i look at the swastika i think of Nazi Germany and the atrocities they committed, when i look at the hammer and sickle, i simply think of Russia, the nation, not communism and not the gulags.

Yes I do agree that at times, it can go out-of-hand but to merely pick on symbol does not fix racism in total, it merely appeases to groups who have the "me me me"/"us us us" syndrome. It is not really the matter of freedom of speech but rather the right of choice and as well preference. I admit that I do like certain Nazi flags but it is because of how it is designed, not because of its symbolism.

The statement about organizing a lawsuit against Max Barry is somewhat questionable and downright comical. I would have further say but at this point..well..I'll just say it: No comment. :?

OOC: This statement is from Dreisden, so when you want to delete somebody, he's the one :!:

]In response to questions: I'm only addressing the swastika here. I understand that there are many other symbols that are offensive to other people, and it's arbritrary to draw a line in the sand. Nevertheless, that's what needs to be done.

Reverse swastikas are prohibited, as are yellow swastikas, or 3D swastikas, or anything else that looks an awful lot like a swastika.
PLease check my flag, and please don't delete me. Will you put it in the news so no natiosn get deleted with a chance.

I don't think anyone has threatened to sue Max Barry...but it wouldn't surprise me if someone did.

Interesting that someone mentioned the 'sacred' right to free speech. Considering that free speech is a very western belief, pioneered very vocally by a lot of US residents, it's hardly fair to say that it's every person's divine right. Perhaps it *should* be, but that's a personal opinion, hmm? ;)

I don't see how banning the use of the swastika restricts political diversity. Fascist governments themselves are not banned.

Your points are entirely true, however, the sanctity of a right held dear to (some) Americans at least is not to be thrown out of consideration. For example, Hindu's believe that cows are sacred. This does not mean we are to discount their beliefs when having to deal with them (e.g. eating with them or so forth) are we? Nevertheless, I will admit that I may have gone slightly far when mentioning that.

As for political diversity, this action does not directly affect such, I will agree. Nevertheless, there have been multiple instances where "Nazis" have been decried as evil and time and again I have seen calls to ban them from the game. This merely appears to potentially be a warning shot to all who claim themselves to be such. However, are we to attack Nazi's because of the feelings of one group? It is possible (though I will grant you, less than likely) that the reason the user chose that position is after careful consideration and sincere respect for the ability that Hitler used to pul his country out of the Great Depression (and may in fact harbor disgust for the end view of the Nazi movement as one that was entirely anti-semitic in nature)

Lastly, at the very least, the closest symbol to the Swastika in nature that would LOGICALLY have to be banned (if we are to have a remote justification of this) would be the Confederate flag. I certainly would not agree with such a banishment (due to the fact that its initial and original statement was in support of states rights over federalism and not white supremacy. Like the Swastika (but perhaps to a greater extent) its original message was perverted into something that it clearly did not and should still not stand for)). Yet, there are people who will argue (look at the growing "Confederate flag scandals" of late in the Southern states) that the Confederate flag is "evil" and has no positive connotation.

Now I can see telling someone to take down thier swastika flag if the nation is mainly using it to piss people off, thus the intention of causing greif. However some folks use it to role-play and keep in the own regions and such. In other words, they aren't bothing anyone else. And then there are some of us that see it as a political symbol or sacred symbol, and that's the reason for displaying it. I object to this because it limits free speech. Like I said, telling people to change their flag should be based on their intention, not on the symbol itself. Because the symbol is not obsence.

Okay, question - if a nation was to put up a picture of Osama bin Ladin and worship his 'glorious deeds' against the US, you'd expect a deluge of complaints, right?

A lot of people would find that offensive, as with the swastika - and the key issue isn't fairness, it's level of complaints. NationStates isn't a place where free speech has to be guaranteed at all costs, and if enough complaints are received then action is taken.

It would be great if we could say "sure, use the swastika in RPs", but then every swastika-using nation would say "well, of COURSE it's for RP". Most of them would probably be genuine, but it would still be offensive, and some would undoubtedly use that as a loophole to conduct either subtle or blatant campaigns of racial harrassment, saying "But I'm only being in-character" as their defence.

At the end of the day, this place belongs to Max Barry, and he decides what is and isn't acceptable. If you look around, both in-game and out, you'll see that pretty much anything and everything IS acceptable.

]Okay, question - if a nation was to put up a picture of Osama bin Ladin and worship his 'glorious deeds' against the US, you'd expect a deluge of complaints, right?


I'd laugh very hard, and invite friends over to laugh with me.

So, people are allowed to have Communist flags, but not National Socialist flags? The Communist's killed far more people than the Nazis ever did. I think all political symbols ought to be allowed, as I said in my above post as One Bad Asp (thought I was logged on as Parra).

Frankly, I find the idea of some nation having a pic of Bin Laden funny, as long as they stayed in their own region and were mainly doing it as a joke. And even if they weren't doing it as a joke, so what? People get offended too easy these days. I completely agree that greifers ought to be deleted, however RPing or people that are genuine in their beliefs and consider the Swastika a sacred symbol shouldn't be forced to remove it. It’s relatively easy to see by the location and motto of a nation (also their national animal and currency) if their intent is to express genuine legitimate political beliefs or if their intent is to offend people. For example a nation with the Swastika Flag that’s motto is “Self discipline is a mark of a higher man” with currency as the dollar and national animal as the puppet, that locationed in a region like Axis or White Power is not griefing. Now on the other hand, a nation with the same Swastika flag that’s motto is “You should be put in concentration camps”, with the nation animal as the fifthly Jew and the currency as the Jewish scalp, that is a different matter. Particularly if said nation moved to a region like Israel. I can see where that person is causing grief. But if I really don’t see what the problem is with nations that stick to their own private regions and don’t bother other people and do not have offensive motto’s, national animal’s, or currency.

Also, do you intend on banning the Confederate Flag next?

Are there any Neo-Tojoans who say the Rape of Nanking never happened? No. So the use of the WWII Japanese battle flag is acceptable.

There are a number of people who deny Japan's role in atrocities commited during WWII.

His Most Infernal Majesty
Satan

None of which come close to the horror of the ovens.

You seem to think that the ovens were used to kill the victims of the Holocaust. Most people in the extermination camps were gassed to death. The ovens were used chiefly to dispose of corpses. Also keep in mind that the Holocaust was MORE than the camps. There were also the Einsatzgruppen, which were responsible for 1.5 to 2 million deaths outside the camps.

His Most Infernal Majesty
Satan

Ya know, here's a quick way to end this discussion.


Wether any of us agree or not, [violet] has spoken. He represents Max (if isnt Max himself), and therefore, as this is Max' site, his word is law. His word is no swastika, therefore, no swastika. Should there be a large number of complaints concerning any other extremely offensive symbol arise, then those will be handled.

Are there any Neo-Tojoans who say the Rape of Nanking never happened? No. So the use of the WWII Japanese battle flag is acceptable.

so if everyone admitted the nazis role in killing millions of people, then youd be okay with the nazi flag?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, the WWII Japanese battle flag is still that country's naval ensign. Since it's still in use, it'd be pretty damn stupid to ban it.

Anyway, the swastika is banned. I will be enforcing the ruling whenever necessary. Don't like it? Go play simcountry.

End of story. Topic closed.

~Siri da mod

Sorry to overrule, Menelmacar, but I'm opening this topic up again. Everybody's making their points pretty reasonably, and it's an interesting topic to debate.

The ruling on swastikas was made after due consideration, so don't expect it to be reversed. But it's fine to discuss the issue.

hey any ruling on those in this thread

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38704

~Loop
NS Flag service

Yes, I just replied there.

ty ty

~Loop

Will hammers and sickles be banned? Because of the evils of Stalinism?

I hate Nazis and all that they stand for; but I think this is a bit harsh. Ah well...

Will hammers and sickles be banned? Because of the evils of Stalinism?

I hate Nazis and all that they stand for; but I think this is a bit harsh. Ah well...
An argument against banning hammers and sickles would be that the only world leader to use the swastika (Hitler) went about killing chunks of his and everyone else's population. Stalin did the same, yes, but the other leaders of the USSR weren't quite that nasty.

Alright. That makes sense :)

*keeps hammer and sickle on flag* :wink:

If symbols associated with regimes committing large-scale atrocities are to be taboo, would you please forbid, as well as the swastika, the hammer and sickle.

If a nation argues that it needs the swastika for pre-nazi cultural and/or religius motives, I could argue that a flag with the As God Frej* would in my case be acceptable. I think such arguments are pretty weak.

*Frej was the God of fertility and often pictured with an enourmous fallos.

Will hammers and sickles be banned? Because of the evils of Stalinism?
This isn't about weighing up the body counts of history's various atrocities. It's about the message the image sends to people -- particularly newcomers to the site who may not immediately appreciate the role-playing element here.

Whatever the history of the image, the swastika is now universally recognized as symbolizing the evils of Nazi Germany and the Holocast. Whether it's intended or not, and regardless of your position on the censorship of images, you surely understand what sort of feeling it gives people who visit this site expecting a fun, amusing game.

I can't think of another flag that conveys anywhere near the same amount of bad feeling to as many people as the swastika. It sure isn't the hammer and sickle, or the stars and stripes.

One other issue - as noted elsewhere, the image is banned in germany, and I believe France.

France HAS sued yahoo on Nazi things - so by leaving the swastika on the board you could very well open yourself up to legal issues in the future.

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That's a very good point, Lemmingcus. I'm pretty certain it was Jean-Marie le Pen (French far-right political figure) who last ran afoul of those laws dealing with "trivialising the holocaust". Continental Europe, at least, takes it pretty seriously.

[quote="Vanadu"]:idea:
but I would also ban communist symbols, especially from the USSR prior to 1990. Communism is still an active ideology in the world and not everyone hates it as they do fascism [quote]

Thats exactly why the symbol should be allowed. Although yes Stalin was oppressive and mean, He dident come up with the sickle and hammer symbol as Hitler suggested using the Swastica. When I see a sickle and hammer I go oh neat cut wheat and build stuff, not OMG! those poor people from the 1950s! However when I see a Swastika I think, geez Hitler what a moron killing all those people.

Not only this, but the USSR never commited mass genocide, so it doesent strike terror into the hearts of a certain group as the Swastika does. All the UUSR did was say, oh your not working, well were taking you to jail to be really mean to you, and yes they did limit free speech very badly but as it says in the Communist Manifeso, the Communist ideology does in fact state that citizens have no rights the government must uphold. I'm not even 100% sure that was in the Manifeso, but Communism supports the social rights of an individual by removing economic classes from the system, just because Stalin was an ass doesent make the symbol wrong, the symbol in fact means work and nothing else.

]I was asked (a while back now) to make a judgement on whether swastikas are acceptable to use in nation flags.

After consideration, I've decided: No.
.

aw... =(
emmm... and the flag of the republic of Saló? =)
I mean... fascism wasn't originally racist in any way...
A LOT of jews were black shirts in the march to Rome...

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

If you're really that determined to keep it, then you're probably a Nazi.

So? What do you care if someone really is a National Socialist? Yes, there are people on this game that are indeed real life National Socialists, myself inculded. Now my flag is not a Swastika. (I chaged it a long time ago to the Southern Battle Flag because I could never get any of my nations write ups to match a true National Socialist State, plus I really like the Stars and Bars me being a Southerner and all.) However if people don't want to be so "offended" by swastikas than they ought not go looking in Nazi regions, just like if you're a Christian that's so "offended" by Satanic symbols you shouldn't be looking in Hell.

Unfortunately, it's the blind sheep who are unwilling to see and weigh the other side of the equation, such as The Sean Empire, who in essence forced the banning of the Swastika.

In any case, what's done is done, and I suppose that the only resolution would be to create you're own game of nationstates everyone can play where you can have swastikas. As I'm currently not interested in designing and implementing such a game, and likely the rest of us all are not as well, there is little that can be done.

However if people don't want to be so "offended" by swastikas than they ought not go looking in Nazi regions, just like if you're a Christian that's so "offended" by Satanic symbols you shouldn't be looking in Hell.

By that kind of reasoning I don't see why there should be any restrictions what so ever on what you have on your flag. Take offence? Don't look.

If you want to get exact about it National Socialist ideals are not evil, just the man, Adolf Hitler, who promoted it the most was. Facism actually promotes the state above the individual, not ohhh lets all go and kill jews. Although I think that what Adolf Hitler did to the Jewish population was wrong, I think the National Socialism is just another idea being tinkered with. If the United States killed of people in a genocide campaign suddley would that make Democracy evil? No in fact it would just make the corrupt people evil.

The Swastika probly shouldent be banned, but it's [violet]'s site so we really can't say anything about it that will change his mind. My political beleifs are actually a Socialist Capitalist mix with a Democratic government behind it highly endudged in civil libertys and massive political rights, however I don't go around say that other governments are evil, Communism, National Socialists, Monarchy, Imperialism, and Anarchy are all beleived to be good by some people, so I say argue for it, be heard, makes life a hell of alot more interesting.

However if people don't want to be so "offended" by swastikas than they ought not go looking in Nazi regions, just like if you're a Christian that's so "offended" by Satanic symbols you shouldn't be looking in Hell.

By that kind of reasoning I don't see why there should be any restrictions what so ever on what you have on your flag. Take offence? Don't look.

Unfortunately, as other countries believe otherwise (Swastikas are illegal to be displayed in Germany (and as such they've pretty much launched an all out attack on the internet for this expression of ideas)), I don't think such an option is possible.

However if people don't want to be so "offended" by swastikas than they ought not go looking in Nazi regions, just like if you're a Christian that's so "offended" by Satanic symbols you shouldn't be looking in Hell.

By that kind of reasoning I don't see why there should be any restrictions what so ever on what you have on your flag. Take offence? Don't look.

The majority of folks with Swastika flags (to the best of my knowlege) are in their own regions, regions with names such as "Axis" or "White Power", etc... I'm talking about the folks that go looking for trouble, trying to find something to gripe about. That'd be me like me, say I was offended by Iraeli flags, looking at a region call Israel. What does one except to find there, hmm? In a region named after a particular theme one expects to Nazi flags in Axis and Jewish flags in Israel.

Who's putting up the cash for the legal defence if France sues Max?

I.E. Put your money where your mouth is - I'm thinking a retainer of $50,000.00 U.S. should do rather nicely to start.

Till then? I'd suggest slagging off on this "swastika" debate.

--------------------------
Humor Troll, Now in 2 inedible flavors
-------------------------------
Q: How many TREKKIES does it take to change a light bulb ?

A: Okay, so ,y'know, like, in that episode where Spock gets attacked by those vomit looking things, and, like, he starts doing weird stuff, like, he takes over the ship and it gets Kirk really mad, so they find out that they can use this super-bright light, but it was bogus, 'cause McCoy used the wrong kind of light, and it makes Spock blind ,so, like......what kind of light bulb are you talking about ??

Q: How many VULCANS does it take to change a light bulb?

A: 2. One to change the lightbulb and one to ask what?s so funny!

Q: How many FERENGI does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Two: one to do it and the other to sell the broken one to an unsuspecting customer.

This whole issue is so silly. Unfortunately, so are many people, like The Sean Empire, as well as many countries, like Germany. Swastika belongs in role playing: what else would so perfectly symbolize a nation that is supposed to be hated by everyone! This whole banning of symbols is a slippery slope, as so many have argued on this thread: today swastika, tomorrow who knows what.

It is never the symbol that is evil or misguided; Hitler was both of these. That his country used a particular symbol should not corrupt the said symbol. If we allow this to happen, we have in effect conceded one to Hitler. Why in the world should we want to do that?

My nation is fascist by design, but that shouldn't say anything of me. I am role playing, for heaven's sake. I did, however, choose another controversial symbol for my own flag. Christians have also killed countless of people in the name of their religion. When shall we ban the cross?

That all said, if there is a chance that some misguided instance would sue mr.Barry for allowing "offensive" symbols on his website, then we shouldn't be using them. We owe mr.Barry big time for creating NationStates and keeping it open for us, so let's all do the courtesy and remove them swastikas. This thing upsets me mightily, but better be upset than sorry. Should NationStates close, I'd be very sorry, indeed.

Ya know, here's a quick way to end this discussion.


Wether any of us agree or not, [violet] has spoken. He represents Max (if isnt Max himself), and therefore, as this is Max' site, his word is law. His word is no swastika, therefore, no swastika. Should there be a large number of complaints concerning any other extremely offensive symbol arise, then those will be handled.

Can we have the "Middle Finger" on a flag? In my mother country France, it is a symbol of Love and Compassion in which the free citizens of the only sane country in the world give daily to those who live in the USA.

Ya know, here's a quick way to end this discussion.


Wether any of us agree or not, [violet] has spoken. He represents Max (if isnt Max himself), and therefore, as this is Max' site, his word is law. His word is no swastika, therefore, no swastika. Should there be a large number of complaints concerning any other extremely offensive symbol arise, then those will be handled.

Can we have the "Middle Finger" on a flag? In my mother country France, it is a symbol of Love and Compassion in which the free citizens of the only sane country in the world give daily to those who live in the USA.

And we direct it daily back to our kind and loving friends in the Socialist, Corrupt Republic of France.

Ya know, here's a quick way to end this discussion.


Wether any of us agree or not, [violet] has spoken. He represents Max (if isnt Max himself), and therefore, as this is Max' site, his word is law. His word is no swastika, therefore, no swastika. Should there be a large number of complaints concerning any other extremely offensive symbol arise, then those will be handled.

Can we have the "Middle Finger" on a flag? In my mother country France, it is a symbol of Love and Compassion in which the free citizens of the only sane country in the world give daily to those who live in the USA.

And we direct it daily back to our kind and loving friends in the Socialist, Corrupt Republic of France.

To quote Sade "Va te faire foutre."

Ya know, here's a quick way to end this discussion.


Wether any of us agree or not, [violet] has spoken. He represents Max (if isnt Max himself), and therefore, as this is Max' site, his word is law. His word is no swastika, therefore, no swastika. Should there be a large number of complaints concerning any other extremely offensive symbol arise, then those will be handled.

Can we have the "Middle Finger" on a flag? In my mother country France, it is a symbol of Love and Compassion in which the free citizens of the only sane country in the world give daily to those who live in the USA.

Sheol, is French? :shock:

well I guess tha explains Everything! :wink:

~Loop

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !

So you people are basically saying if I got enough signatures or complaints about a certain symbol then I could get it taken down?

So, let's say the Japanese symbol, and anything associated with Japan is offensive to the Asian population because it represents just about the same things the Nazi did (mass rape, torture, infanticide, biological weapons testing on civilians, and just wanton killing). And let's say I got a significant number to complain about it. How many people would it take to get anything Japanese related to be banned from the site? Because if I was given a number, I could always attempt to inform people on the atrocities of Japan, show the levity in comparison to the swastika, and hopefully boost enough support to take Japan off the whole game.

Is this, [violet], a question of banning iconography or a question of banning ideology?

iconography. The reason (as [violet] has stated) the swastika has been banned is because the swastika offends so many people on so many different levels, more so than any other icon (well, just about).

Okay, I'm all for not liking something like a swastika because of what it symbolized for a very small part of history.
But so what? The cross represents a very large part of hate and bigotry. Ban that? What's next?
To be free, you have to have freedom of choice.
Ban the crime, but ignore the hate. Once you try to change the hate in someone, you're crossing the line of intrusion into private, and free, thought.

The cross, if anything, represents the oppression and hatred towards Christians, not from Christians.
How about this: if you have a flag, but feel as though it may be viewed as some to be racist or otherwise hateful, DON'T USE IT. You can make your own, you know.
This is probably the best answer. I will repeat it until I am heard.

Who's putting up the cash for the legal defence if France sues Max?

I.E. Put your money where your mouth is - I'm thinking a retainer of $50,000.00 U.S. should do rather nicely to start.

Till then? I'd suggest slagging off on this "swastika" debate.


Who's putting up the cash if an African-American sues Max for allowing the Stars and Bars, who's putting up the cash if Max gets sued by an athiest organization over the use of crosses and other christian iconographs?

People fail to remember that being offended is a feeling, and like some many other feelings they CAN (read: CAN not necessarily always are) based on irrational and illogical ideas. I think the reason I oppose the banning of the swastika is not because I am Nazi (no matter what The Sean Empire) wants you to believe, but because the basis of the banning appears to be NOT legal issues but because there is some sort of idea that the swastika IS and ONLY IS a symbol of hatred and evil.

This is completely false, there are so many icons used to front evil movements. My question is what in reality, other than the fact that not enough people have whined about it, separates the swastika from the cross?

Any factual, proven answers?

If anything, the ban was worth it, because it prompted Germanica to make a final dramatic appearance. Welcome back, old boy! :lol:

How bout this:

[violet] said so, as he is the admin of this site, as far as this site is concerned, the swastika is not allowed. Get over it.

Indeed.

I am a jew and cant stand people putting swastikas on the flag and saying they are nazis. Check my region (Glens Falls) there is one there!

Give him the boot. That's what regional controls are for.

The Swastika, is an ancient religious symbol.

Do you plan to outlaw a crucifix from your game too?

If I want to use a Star if David is that okay?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah, I'd better get rid of the dice in my flag! It might offend Christians who think gambling is a sin!

Yes, boot those swastika-flying nations. And those that have any sort of cross. And those that have anything offensive, like snakes, skulls, copyright infringements, devils, the color red and anything that comes in threes.
Don't forget puppies (evil incarnate, of course), stripes of any kind and anything else that looks "suspicious."

To a certain degree every national flag in the world can offend a large group for example;

US Flag- Islamic Fundamentalists
Iraqi Flag- Iraqi people oppressed by Saddam Hussein, Irani people
Chinese Flag- The current communist government
Vietnam- Vietnam war veterans
North Korea- Korean war veterans
Britan, England- Argentina, South Africa
Cuba- Anti-Communists, Cuban Refugees
Soviet Union- Anti Communists, Pro Americans
Iran- The Hostages from the Iran Hostage crisis
Pakistan- Indian people
India- Pakistani people
Turkish Flag- Armenian peoples
Israeli Flag- Palestinian peoples
Palestinian Flag- Israeli peoples...

And the list can go on...

Sorry, only meant to post that once

While I'm against racism...and I understand that the admin's ruling stands....this is upsurd.

like some one already said...ban all sickle and hammer flags...communist rulers killed MANY people in similar holocausts and meaninglessly shot my great uncle on the west germany/east germany border. Therefore it offends me.

Don't you think many of the people in Afghanistan are saying that the Americans meaninglessly shot members of our family?

Who's putting up the cash if an African-American sues Max for allowing the Stars and Bars, who's putting up the cash if Max gets sued by an athiest organization over the use of crosses and other christian iconographs?



Hey - you got priors on this? France did sue. Can you prop your lame assertion with real world lawsuits? I can. France sued Yahoo in court. They sued because yahoo allowed Nazi artifacts.

Thanx a whole bunch for strawmanning - looking forward to you putting your money where your mouth is...

-----------------------

Humor troll is too pissed to allow for jokes
---------------------------------------

Humor troll is ready to rumble.

So what, should France be sueing the US government for allowing pictures of Nazi parades and Banners in the school text books?

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

This is a game. People are here to have a bit of a play and have a lugh. If people feel the need to put swatstickers (or any other symbol) on their flag - so what ? I think its pathetic that a bunch of losers (who spend far too much of their time on this game) feel the need to start creating stupid rules and restricting peoples freedom of expression. I have 4 words :GET A LIFE MODERATOR

While some may argue that the swastika was used by Native Americans and the like, It is now forever a symbol of tyranny, opression, and an evil that cannot be cleansed from our conciousness. To use it is to state your belief in that hatred, and it cannot be tolerated. Other argue and say that the Cross or the Star of David should be banned as well. These symbols represent peace and love, not the rabbid intolerance of Hitler and his Nazi spawn. I believe the swastika should be stampted out wherever it is seen, for basic human rights.

Here is an interesting comment made from an website and note that it is not from some "Neo-Nazi" propaganda site:

On Sepember 28, 2000, Ariel Sharon, visited the Wailing Wall in the holy city of Jerusalem and since that time hundreds of people have been killed. At a time when peace negotiations were moving forward, when there was virtually no violence, when there was a chance for peace, this right wing fascist intentionally, knowingly and maliciously made a visit to the Temple Mount and deliberately threw a match into a powder keg.

Subsequently, he has been elected Prime Minister of Israel and he now demands the the violence that he incited stop before he will consider negotiating a peace with the Palestinians. Anyone who knows the deadly games and rhetoric employed by Hitler before and during World War II can see the employment of those same tactics by Mr. Sharon.

The Palestinians who were driven out of Israel at gun point by the Zionist are not going to be allowed to return to their homes as the Jews were not allowed to repossess their homes in Europe after World War II. The Jews are imposing on the Muslims many of the same woes that they constantly decry under their "Holocaust" mantra.

http://www.johnworldpeace.com/ce100700.jpg

I think we should ban using the word "swastika" because when I see/hear the word, I picture a swastika in my head. And that could be offensive.
And the word "Nazi."
These things should be banned...including all the people who say those words. Those words, and the people who say them, are evil, they're the enemy. they should be ejected, removed, exiled. They shouldn't be allowed.
No, better yet, they should be locked up in camps so that we don't have to deal with them...

Okay, now I'm getting REALLY sarcastic.

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !

Adapt or die. Goodbye a**hole!

While some may argue that the swastika was used by Native Americans and the like, It is now forever a symbol of tyranny, opression, and an evil that cannot be cleansed from our conciousness. To use it is to state your belief in that hatred, and it cannot be tolerated. Other argue and say that the Cross or the Star of David should be banned as well. These symbols represent peace and love, not the rabbid intolerance of Hitler and his Nazi spawn. I believe the swastika should be stampted out wherever it is seen, for basic human rights.

peace and love...oh, that's so funny. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Moderator. Why not err on the side of freedom of expression ?

Yes the game is getting old. Moderator, the game is here for us - not for you. I'm not coming back.

I think we should ban using the word "swastika" because when I see/hear the word, I picture a swastika in my head. And that could be offensive.
And the word "Nazi."
These things should be banned...including all the people who say those words. Those words, and the people who say them, are evil, they're the enemy. they should be ejected, removed, exiled. They shouldn't be allowed.

*cough cough* NAZI *cough cough*

I wondered how long it would be before someone called me a Nazi.
2 hours. Not bad. Thought it would be sooner.

Interesting. I thought stifling freedom would be considered the trait of a Nazi.

Would it surprise you if I said I was Jewish?

I think we should ban using the word "swastika" because when I see/hear the word, I picture a swastika in my head. And that could be offensive.
And the word "Nazi."
These things should be banned...including all the people who say those words. Those words, and the people who say them, are evil, they're the enemy. they should be ejected, removed, exiled. They shouldn't be allowed.

*cough cough* NAZI *cough cough*


If raising valid points and making sense makes you a nazi, slap an armband on me and call me Hanz.

I wondered how long it would be before someone called me a Nazi.
2 hours. Not bad. Thought it would be sooner.

Interesting. I thought stifling freedom would be considered the trait of a Nazi.

Would it surprise you if I said I was Jewish?

I would be somewhat, but meh..not really.

If raising valid points and making sense makes you a nazi, slap an armband on me and call me Hanz.

And you can call me Heinrich

Well, I'm not Jewish. Yet.

I (or the great nation of Spaceman Spiffmania, or whatever whatever) believe that to be truly respectful of human rights, you have to let other humans have their rights to express themselves.

I think it would be a good idea to propose a law to allow freedom of flag expression to the UN. However, I need more endorsements to make such a proposal.

And if it gets shot down for trying to change the game...well, you don't often get to try to challenge god....

Sorry - when the admin speaks - the discussion ends.

(or so it should be)

Yet again I disagree with you. [violet] seems to appreciate honest discussion.

true Ack, Violet did reopen the topic.

~Loop

]I don't think anyone has threatened to sue Max Barry...but it wouldn't surprise me if someone did

Umm, I know one racist bastard who did.

]Sorry to overrule, Menelmacar, but I'm opening this topic up again. Everybody's making their points pretty reasonably, and it's an interesting topic to debate.

The ruling on swastikas was made after due consideration, so don't expect it to be reversed. But it's fine to discuss the issue.

Thank you. I do not agree that you are always fair.

But I do argue you always try to be fair.

Moderator. Why not err on the side of freedom of expression ?

What I find funny is that the service provider is liable for what the users do, regardless of whether or not the service provider waives all responsibility for its users actions (and thus causing things like the banning of swastikas here)

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !


:D I salute Germanica. The Swastika is a most sacred symbol that represents victory and even if the Mods go though and delete every nation that displays it on their flags, they will never stamp out National Socialism and we will win in the end.

(Although Germanica, if I was you I would have given a salute often called the "you're #1" or "rebel" salute instead. i.e the middle finger.)

]Will hammers and sickles be banned? Because of the evils of Stalinism?
This isn't about weighing up the body counts of history's various atrocities. It's about the message the image sends to people -- particularly newcomers to the site who may not immediately appreciate the role-playing element here.

Whatever the history of the image, the swastika is now universally recognized as symbolizing the evils of Nazi Germany and the Holocast. Whether it's intended or not, and regardless of your position on the censorship of images, you surely understand what sort of feeling it gives people who visit this site expecting a fun, amusing game.

I can't think of another flag that conveys anywhere near the same amount of bad feeling to as many people as the swastika. It sure isn't the hammer and sickle, or the stars and stripes.

Don't 100% agree, but I think it is a good post all the same.

That said, how many N00bs saw Swastikas in there first few weeks?

It never fails to amaze me how all those that argue against the ruling by [violet] dont respond or read to those posts that make their points invalid...

Moderator. Why not err on the side of freedom of expression ?

What I find funny is that the service provider is liable for what the users do, regardless of whether or not the service provider waives all responsibility for its users actions (and thus causing things like the banning of swastikas here)

Not sure if there is any validity or proof of this. Sorry, no offence, just saying...

It never fails to amaze me how all those that argue against the ruling by [violet] dont respond or read to those posts that make their points invalid...

I hope this is not a reference to me...

Yes the game is getting old. Moderator, the game is here for us - not for you. I'm not coming back.

NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, Hey Hey Hey, Good-bye.

Game's not here FOR us, it's here BY the will of violet. It's not here FOR anybody but who violet decides it's here for.

Please honor your pledge, and never return.

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

Moderator. Why not err on the side of freedom of expression ?

What I find funny is that the service provider is liable for what the users do, regardless of whether or not the service provider waives all responsibility for its users actions (and thus causing things like the banning of swastikas here)

Not sure if there is any validity or proof of this. Sorry, no offence, just saying...

I'm just basing it off the ruling against Yahoo in France for merely having Nazi memorabilia up for sale, even though it was not Yahoo's responsibility.

It never fails to amaze me how all those that argue against the ruling by [violet] dont respond or read to those posts that make their points invalid...

Well, one of the problems are that several of these posts that might be invalidating the arguments are merely posts saying "I agree" or "There is a nazi and I hate all nazis". I would gladly be willing to look over some of the valid complaints (and admittedly, I'm not so much against the banning of the Swastika itself (though it admittedly does strike a nerve in my sense of freedoms) as much as the apparent arbitrary decision.)

If other hate symbols were banned and stated as such, I would understand the swastika ban more easily (if still be slightly annoyed by the loss of freedoms.) I'm just slightly more concerned about one particular special-interest group apparently winning out here.

:idea:
To complete our knowledge of the fascist trilogy, remember that the Italian armed forces used a triple bundle of wheat stalks called a fasces , which is where we got the word fascism. The red and white spoked rising sun flag was Japan's imperial symbol and should be regarded as equally hateful, especially to those who suffered in the Philippines or China.
I have less universal agreement on this point, but I would also ban communist symbols, especially from the USSR prior to 1990. Communism is still an active ideology in the world and not everyone hates it as they do fascism (which itself has a few ignorant supporters). However the communists of the 20th century are responsible for as many millions dead through execution and genocide as the WW2 fascists. Let us further ban the christian cross under which the crusedes were launched and the inquisition was perpetrated. Let us ban all of the european flags under which entire nations were conquered and brutalized. let us ban the American flag behind which global menaces such as Monsanto that are quickly patenting the very ground from under the feet of humanity hide...

Lets just get rid of the flag option. I mean you have to break a few omlets to make an egg, right? :roll:

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !


:D I salute Germanica. The Swastika is a most sacred symbol that represents victory and even if the Mods go though and delete every nation that displays it on their flags, they will never stamp out National Socialism and we will win in the end.

(Although Germanica, if I was you I would have given a salute often called the "you're #1" or "rebel" salute instead. i.e the middle finger.)

Victory? Nazi Germany lost, Parra.

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

I think that Nazi swastikas should not be allowed but thoseused for religious reasons, where it is different, should be allowed.

Just ban the use of any religious symbols all together in flags

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

I'm sorry to hear that, as his post was nothing but the spewing of hate-filled crap, which is something I thought you disapproved of.

It is important to strike a balance between freedom of expression and causing offence. I do not have problems with things causing offence (in my opinion, one of the best ever tv programmes caused a lot of offence) but the large amount of offence to the wide number of people caused by the swastika - greater than the star of David, stars and stripes or even the hammer and sickle - outweighs the value of its expression. Plus, the other three are all real, current flags, which would make it far harder to ban them.

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

I'm sorry to hear that, as his post was nothing but the spewing of hate-filled crap, which is something I thought you disapproved of.

Why should you be surprised? I am sure that Parratoga agrees with many of these ideas. I am not saying that she does, but from what I have seen and the posts that I have read of hers - it seems like she would approve of these type of ideas, so why should it surprise you?

Who said I was surprized by the ideas behind national socialism?

I'm surprized that she approved of the flaming and crass use of words, and claiming of Nationstates being on the way "out".

Parratoga's always been about expressing her views in a calm and rational manner, Germanica's was anything but calm and rational, it is disappointing that she would salute that.

It is important to strike a balance between freedom of expression and causing offence. I do not have problems with things causing offence (in my opinion, one of the best ever tv programmes caused a lot of offence) but the large amount of offence to the wide number of people caused by the swastika - greater than the star of David, stars and stripes or even the hammer and sickle - outweighs the value of its expression. Plus, the other three are all real, current flags, which would make it far harder to ban them.

Which brings up an interesting hypothetical - If Germany had chosen not the ban the swastika, and indeed had kept the swastika as their national flag, would the swastika still be such an emotive symbol? Would all these years out of the Nazi context reduce it's Nazi association?

It is, after all, merely a symbol. The only meaning behind it is the meaning we provide it. Of course, the meaning we have provided it is that behind the Nazi and Neo-Nazi movements, and while I may not necessarily agree with the banning of it, I can certainly understand the reasons for doing so.

It would be supremely ironic if the German's attempt to eliminate Nazism by not allowing their imagery to be publically shown in Germany instead only increased the emotional resonance of the symbol, and as a result gave Neo-Nazis a symbol to rally around, which has effectively destroyed any other definition of the symbol in the public mind.

Just a minor contribution...

:idea:
To complete our knowledge of the fascist trilogy, remember that the Italian armed forces used a triple bundle of wheat stalks called a fasces , which is where we got the word fascism. The red and white spoked rising sun flag was Japan's imperial symbol and should be regarded as equally hateful, especially to those who suffered in the Philippines or China.
I have less universal agreement on this point, but I would also ban communist symbols, especially from the USSR prior to 1990. Communism is still an active ideology in the world and not everyone hates it as they do fascism (which itself has a few ignorant supporters). However the communists of the 20th century are responsible for as many millions dead through execution and genocide as the WW2 fascists.

I knew someone would chime in with this one.

Btw, my nation does feature a Swastika--being smashed in by a fist. Where does this come on this ruling?

why should'nt they have swastickers on there flags :twisted:

Bla bla ancient sign of navaho fertility cult

Assuming symbols have a meaning and they can be interpreted correctly, I'd estimate that in about 99% of all cases when a swastika is shown in a western culture it is right to say that it is semantically connected to nazism. All this blabber about ancient signs and luck symbols may be formally correct, but it is rather esoteric and special. We should not act as if half of all swastikas are only misinterpreted, innocent lucky charms from old india.

Add to that the inherent legal issues of things depiting nazi stuff due to France and Germany's rules prohibiting stuff.

Besides, Be creative - I used a picture of myself!

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/lemmingcus_meenicus.jpg
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Humor Troll - Sexy as always
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Why did the chicken cross the road?

Tasha: That depends...was it fully functional?

Chekov: It must have been on its way to assist in saving my life for the billionth time.. did I scream this time?

Khan: With my last breath I spit at the chicken...

Harry: I don't know, it's my first mission.

Paris: Well, I think that...say, that's a lovely shirt you're wearing

]*SNIP!*

Don't 100% agree, but I think it is a good post all the same.

That said, how many N00bs saw Swastikas in there first few weeks?


I wouldn't call myself a n00b, but when I first started playing... uhm, yeah. Quite a number. I was actually wondering for a while if it was one of the game-provided standard flags, so I went through the list to find out otherwise again.

....well, that, and on closer inspection, none of the flags were exactly the same thing... of the ones I happened to see, at least... so it made sense to say they'd each uploaded their own file.

Still made me wonder, though...

If you ban nazi flags, ban communist style flags too. You should know that Hitler killed 9 million people - 6 million Jews and 3 million Poles - while the communists killed 62 million citizens.

My grandfather was killed by these communists and I consider the communist flag being worse than the nazi flag.

Here I got a question for all the people arguing for the Swaz. how many of you would've used it and known about it if there where no nazis?

it is a game people...get a life.
if this is the only way to spread the message of Nazism ...you are lame.
Buy some stuff, make a server, host your own site and then you can have all the swastikas you want instead of throwing hissy fits like a grownup

"It is our strength and our bullets that will prevail. "
-Germanica


Scary....and good riddance

If you ban nazi flags, ban communist style flags too. You should know that Hitler killed 9 million people - 6 million Jews and 3 million Poles - while the communists killed 62 million citizens.

My grandfather was killed by these communists and I consider the communist flag being worse than the nazi flag.

Here I got a question for all the people arguing for the Swaz. how many of you would've used it and known about it if there where no nazis?

Not I, but I stand with my argument in the interest of free expression, not Nazi ideals.

Listen... I think something has been seriously overlooked here. While I might agree that if any flag should be banned, that flag would be the "Black Spider" Swastika representing the ideology of Nazi Germany, I don't think it is right to ban a flag in the first place.

I'd first like to say (And Das Google, Parratoga, Germanica, take your pic, basically anyone on the General Forum could vouch for me) that I am a staunch egalitarian, anti-racist, and anti-nazi. Germanica and Parratoga would most certainly put my name among the ranks of the "pesky" "nazi-bashers." I find Nazism under any guise to be nothing less than evil, and I consider it an imminent threat that needs to be unveiled as soon as it can be identified. All of this notwithstanding, I think your decision, [violet], is a slap in the face to freedom of speech.

Flags are a symbol... what they represent is in the eye of the beholder. Even if they represent Nazism to the person waving it, it is their right to wave it, so long as they are not acting on the ideas it represents. To them it may represent the Germans who died during WWII who were not deep within the Nazi Party, and saw themselves as giving their lives for their country. I realize that application of the freedoms of speech and expression are somewhat limited here, because of the nature of the boards, but this path leads along the infamous slippery slope. As many others have pointed out, if we are to ban swastikas, why not ban the American flag, because of slavery, and if not, certainly the flag of the Confederacy must be banned. Perhaps the Union Jack should be banned, because of their old imperialistic tendencies, and for pushing drugs on the Chinese during the Opium wars for profit. The list of atrocities, and flags that coinicide with them, goes on. I'm not equating them all with the Holocaust (which Germanica, and others will tell you, never happened... or if it did, it happened to only a million or so Jews, which makes it all the more righteous... feel the sarcasm, please), but I'm simply saying that with freedom of expression, you have to take the good with the bad; as soon as you pervert it, and use it to limit the rights of some, it ceases to be freedom of expression. Perhaps I'm wrong... but if so, at least I've played the Devil's advocate.

-Andy

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !

Adapt or die. Goodbye a**hole!
That's cute of you to roleplay with Who Gives a Damn like that Anbar. Or maybe you have had it taken by one of the others? :twisted:...... Pertaining to what Germanica did: It was cool; but there are so many other people that he could have talked into creating nations here and changing the forum, it's a shame.

I think your decision, [violet], is a slap in the face to freedom of speech.

Although I am a total supporter of the US upholding of freedom of speech, I must make a point that it is US law that protects us, there are several players from all of Europe on this site so it is safe to assume that not all of these countries guarentee the civil liberty of freedom of speech the US does.

I think your decision, [violet], is a slap in the face to freedom of speech.

Although I am a total supporter of the US upholding of freedom of speech, I must make a point that it is US law that protects us, there are several players from all of Europe on this site so it is safe to assume that not all of these countries guarentee the civil liberty of freedom of speech the US does.

The Freedoms of Expression are widespread throughout most of Europe... the United States hardly has a monopoly on them. It's a safe bet that most people who have access to computers and the internet have a goodly amount of freedom of expression. There are many whose access to this freedom is not up to the extent that is enjoyed in the United States and other like countries (with respect to Civil Liberties), but like I said, at least a majority of the people on this site have protected rights to express themselves. In addition, this is the internet, it is not within the bounds of any one country. The boards of this site have always stood for generous freedom of expression; just about everything short of the pornographic is generally acceptable. If we are to take away the simple right to bear a flag, then we should follow by taking away the right of a National Socialist to express his or her political opinions on the message boards... It is the same principle.

Well, actually, that's the principle behind European countries banning nazis and Nazi symbolism within their borders. BECAUSE they want to ban that political group (but they can't do it directly, which is why they still exist in Europe)

with freedom of expression, you have to take the good with the bad; as soon as you pervert it, and use it to limit the rights of some, it ceases to be freedom of expression.
Let's not kid ourselves that except on the issue of swastikas in flags, we enjoy unbridled freedom of speech. NationStates is a very tolerant site, but you can't post pornographic images, or spam someone, or personally abuse them. Those things are prohibited because they prevent other people from enjoying the game. The swastika is banned for the same reason.

Flags are a symbol... what they represent is in the eye of the beholder.
I agree with this, and tend to think that banning symbols bestows them with a power they shouldn't have. That was the reason they weren't banned in the first place: it makes Nazi idiots think they're special.

As many others have pointed out, if we are to ban swastikas, why not ban the American flag, because of slavery, and if not, certainly the flag of the Confederacy must be banned. Perhaps the Union Jack...
As I said in my last post, this is not about banning every symbol that has ever been associated with bad things. The American flag, or the British flag, or any other flag you want to mention, has nowhere near the public association with real-life evil of the swastika. When you see a nation with an American flag, you don't think, "That player must be in favor of slavery." But for almost everyone, a nation with a swastika is celebrating or endorsing the Holocaust and Nazi ideals. That message is deeply offensive to huge numbers of people, and you should be able to enjoy the game without stumbling across it.

I'm not a Nazi, nor do I care about the symbol (I use star trek symbols :D) I still think that many nations are role-playing as nazish nations and without their symbol they can't seem as serious about it. I think the flags sould be allow for the sole purpose of having fun. I personally don't feel offended by it I look at it and laugh at Hitlers feminism (sorry nazis but the guy was) But then again I can argue for it, it does seem that many people were shell shocked by the site of the terror his regiment provoked. This is a touchy issue, if it was my site i'd say allow it, but its not so if it stands go crying to mommy i guess :twisted:

]In response to questions: I'm only addressing the swastika here. I understand that there are many other symbols that are offensive to other people, and it's arbritrary to draw a line in the sand. Nevertheless, that's what needs to be done.

Reverse swastikas are prohibited, as are yellow swastikas, or 3D swastikas, or anything else that looks an awful lot like a swastika.

What about the Colombia Jacket logo heh :D

I can think of many nations including the United States that have committed atrocities.

None of which come close to the horror of the ovens.

Ranting aside. The swastika stands for evil. Blame whomever you want - but I for one am happy that it's been banned.

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Humor troll is off to forage
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The Swedish Chef has been assimilated. Borg borg borg!

U2 will become one with the Borg. We like Bono.

We have engaged the Borg. The wedding will be Friday.

Welcome to Borg Burger. No pickles. Pickles are irrelevant

Holy crap...two things on which Lemmingcus and I are in agreement...much more of this and I might have to give my card to the Liberal's Network back...waaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!

Wait...

It's okay...

I agree with Lemmincus on this one, because he takes the Liberal's position....Maybe we need to give Lemmingcus a trial membership to the Liberal's Network....

How is that the liberal's position?

A lot of people, of both political viewpoint believed that this was a good idea.

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

Because everytime you makes someone think about something different, you win.

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

I'm sorry to hear that, as his post was nothing but the spewing of hate-filled crap, which is something I thought you disapproved of.

Don't you receal the posts in which they "got married" or whatever.. I think Sheol started it... a Who si going to end up with the Parrot type of thread...

]*SNIP!*

Don't 100% agree, but I think it is a good post all the same.

That said, how many N00bs saw Swastikas in there first few weeks?


I wouldn't call myself a n00b, but when I first started playing... uhm, yeah. Quite a number. I was actually wondering for a while if it was one of the game-provided standard flags, so I went through the list to find out otherwise again.

....well, that, and on closer inspection, none of the flags were exactly the same thing... of the ones I happened to see, at least... so it made sense to say they'd each uploaded their own file.

Still made me wonder, though...

Wow, very surpised about this. Where did you see them? In the game or in the forum? How did you run across Swastikas?

If you ban nazi flags, ban communist style flags too. You should know that Hitler killed 9 million people - 6 million Jews and 3 million Poles - while the communists killed 62 million citizens.

My grandfather was killed by these communists and I consider the communist flag being worse than the nazi flag.

This guy reminds me of IU... what ahppened to IU?

If you ban nazi flags, ban communist style flags too. You should know that Hitler killed 9 million people - 6 million Jews and 3 million Poles - while the communists killed 62 million citizens.

My grandfather was killed by these communists and I consider the communist flag being worse than the nazi flag.

This guy reminds me of IU... what ahppened to IU?

I think he got chased out of his information minister office by advancing troops.

Does his nation still exist? If so, then it is likely he is posting under a different name...

ooc of course:No no, this won't do at all.
The American flag does represent evil, slaughter, oppression and suffering from the very begining. You can say America has done a lot of good too, unlike Nazi Germany, I mean America put a man on the moon, apparently.. wait..from where did they get the major technological boosts for that little affair? Oh! America erased the histories of Nazis.. of SS members simply to further American expansionism around the globe..and beyond it. As was suggested, America was founded on principals of inequality, oppression, war, murder and slavery.. Washington was a slave holder.. the rebels went to war on their own neighbours and families to better themselves.. they deliberately put civilians in the line of fire.. they almost certainly fired the first shots.. they murdered men in their sleep.. they tortured loyal colonists.. that's what America was founded on, that what the starts and stripes was born from. Since then America has attacked almost every populated region on earth and has been the only nation ever to use "WMD". America still kills its own citizens every year. America is a threat NOW, America has announced its intention to militarise space and bar access to all other nations, and made clear its intention to reject any attempt at veto by its supposed allies. America is as we bicker about seventy year dead ideology and atrocity working to dominate the entire planet and is directly causing massive suffering in many many parts of the world.
How in the hell can you justify banning one symbol under a system that accepts this?
I am offering no support for fascism or "national socialism" (my oppressive Nation State is contrary to most of my beliefs, even), but the idea that America's flag (and others) is (/are) okay because not everything the nation(s) has (/have) done has been evil while 30s-40s Germany's was only negative.. is absurd.
Nation States may not play the attempted extermination of the Jews, but may go along with the execution of popular democratic leaders, the insallation of *extreme right wing dictators* (sound familiar?), the sale of arms to dictators bent on genoci... arrrrgh, just accept that this decision is silly and wrong.

Why can I fly the flag of two million murdered Filipinos, two nuclear holocausts, five?..seven? million raped, oppressed and murdered stone-age peoples, and a military dictatorship of the entire planet, but not the flag of a failed and vastly understood evil guilty of significantly less menace?
(Not that I wish to, but then I don't wish to own a pet, sleep with a man, visit Spain or sip coffee in my front room, either.. the point being that others may)

(Oh, and freedom of speech is generally much more extensive in western and especially northern Europe than in the US, contrary to what some nuts seem to think)

I'd write a reply, but if what he said were true, he wouldn't have time to read it before the men in the black helicopter came and kidnapped him.

Hindu Punks reclaim the swastica. The swastica is not a symbol of evil, even if you accept the idea of evil (which I don't) then a symbol cannot be evil - it is men who do evil. The swastica is a symbol of life.

I was disturbed to see a swastica on the wall in my friends neighbourhood and asked what HPITA taged underneath it meant. It stands for Hindu Punks In The Area and indicates that any fascists will get a good kicking.

HINDU NATIONS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE THE SWASTICA. Punk nations should be allowed to use it, fascists should be allowed chew pavements, the use of a crooked cross is neither here nor there.

If you want to talk about evil symbos then the union flag was flown over the first concentration camp (and many 'detainment' camps right now), the union flag was flown on the ships in the opium wars, the union flag was on the wrong side in the American revolution, the union flag is used by more (real) fascists than the swastica and to cap it all the first world war which capitalism hopes we'll all just forget because the second was so much worse (hmm, no quite the opposite).

There are virtualy no people alive who sufferd under the swastica and for them it was three generations ago. Its time we got over it, move on.

That's directed at me (,Vthnaar)?

I implied a current policy of global domination and did not intend to imply its completion.
After all, I'm not in America, and though what I suggest is quite true, in relatively powerful nations the effect is moderated and general, restricting governmental freedoms more than personal, as in less fortunate parts of the world.
..So far.

The facts stated remain facts regardless, and fully back my assertions and assumptions; further, the point at hand is uninfluenced.

Vthnar:

The patriot act set up for 5% of americans to be government informers. They would write reports about their fellow citizens and watch for 'suspicious' ones. Thats every office, every classroom, every bar, every community with its own government informer. Guess which 'troublesome' types are the first targets... heavily unionised workplaces and minority communities (the nazis used jews to police jews too and they took out the unions first).

Its not been fully implemented yet but coupled with America's existing military that would make America a fascist country by Musolini's theory and practice. There is no political will but your masters can convert America to fascism extreemly easily - look at the tribalism that surrounds what passes for politics in America, how much of a push would thoes people need to become a political militia?

The patriot act 2 totaly guts civil rights so effective opposition to the fascist transformation will be ineffective - international opposition is going to be weak when whoever cheats best at the next 'election' has his finger over the big red button marked 'the end'.

I'm not going to do a political debate on the tech forum, but needless to say, I see life a lot different.

The patriot act is not going to last forever, and comparing it to the nazis is erroneous and unfair. The jews didn't fly a plane into three thousand Germans, nor did they threaten to do it again at every chance they got. The government isn't after arabs, they're after al-qaeda.

That's really as far as I'm going to go with this, because it really isn't the place for it.

The patriot act is not going to last forever,The attitude of a true revolutionary, your right, we can beat them together brother, though you have greater responsablity as you live there. If you think that the government will choose to reduce its power without presure from below then that would be the first time such a thing has hapend *ever* in the history of anywhere. and comparing it to the nazis is erroneous and unfair. The jews didn't fly a plane into three thousand Germans, nor did they threaten to do it again at every chance they got. The government isn't after arabs, they're after al-qaeda.I didn't compare it to the Nazis, my comparison was with Musolini's fascists. Fascism is not acceptable just because they restrict their murderous attantion to trade unionists. The jews were vilified for the actions of a few of their number so there are similarites even there.That's really as far as I'm going to go with this, because it really isn't the place for it.Everything is political.

Well, I'm not exactly against the patriot act myself, as it doesn't affect me.

But even if "everything is political" this isn't the place for political things that aren't also "technical".

it was three generations ago
Hindu beliefs originated in the Indus Valley civilization about 4,500 years ago. Much of the tradition that is now associated with Hinduism stems from the ritual and religion of the Aryans who invaded N India about 3,000 years ago.
... get over it, eh? :)


I agree with [violet] on this one - there is no other flag which has the same connotations of evil as the swastika. Sure, the stars and stripes, the union flag, the star of david, all have some negative associations. But, for the vast majority of the world, the swastika has only negative connotations.

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

Because everytime you makes someone think about something different, you win.

Hmm....never thought about it that way before.....

Parratoga, I find it sad that you'd salute Germanica's obviously crass post, especially while you seem so interested in becoming a mod.

I will salute my friend Germanica as much as I please because he said what I was thinking but didn’t say because I was trying to be more diplomatic about it. But y'all are right this is a pointless debate because even if I continued and tryed to be as civil as possible, it still won't change anything, so why waste my time?

*Clicks heels together and raises right arm and salutes my hero Germanica*

I'm sorry to hear that, as his post was nothing but the spewing of hate-filled crap, which is something I thought you disapproved of.

Don't you receal the posts in which they "got married" or whatever.. I think Sheol started it... a Who si going to end up with the Parrot type of thread...

Ah yes I certainly recall those threads…everyone else wanted me to marry Amerigo but I rigged the poll so my darling Germanica would win instead. *smiles and sighs* Sentient Peoples then did write a “wedding story” in which Parratoga did marry Germanica. And the whole incident really worked out to my advantage because I found out that he has a major crush on me…which was mutual because I feel the same way about him. (I mean who else would have created a region called the "Cult of Parratoga"?) So perhaps this might in part explain to some of you why I so vehemently defend him. It's not only what was said, it was also who was saying it.

No it wasn't Sheol that started the threads, it was Gorilla Television. Sheol only "claimed the right of the feudal lord" because my other main nation is located in his region.

What if someone condemns the actions of the Nazis OOC, but likes to play a Neo-Nazi nation on NationStates? IT can happen. I am sure that it *has* happened. And, I think, they should have the right to use a Swastika in their flag.

This is the moderator's game. It is wholly within his rights to ban whomever he wishes for whatever he wishes.

However...

I think his action sets an exceptionally bad precedent and one must wonder who will be next on the "hit" parade and for what reason. Will Christian flags be banned because their symbol and theology is often used by hate groups? What about Confederate symbology? Certainly most current neo-Confederate organizations qualify as hate groups. What about the flags from Muslim nations? Are they next? What about the old South African flag? The list goes on and on.

I'm not particulraly fond of people who promote hate speech but the only thing I find more reprehensable is the REPRESSION of speech and it is unpopular speech, unwelcome speech which is in the most need of protection. Violet's action in banning "offensive" symbols simply because they do not fit his own moral structure is an attack on the very principle of freedom. It is an action that we would see a totalitarian government do. It is what we would see the Taliban do. His banning of certain symbology because it resembles those of the Nazis sends a very clear message...that it is Violet who's philosophies most resemble Naziism, much more so than the players who are using the symbols.

Thomas Paine once said, "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." Violet has set the wrong precedent...one that well eventally bite him, and the rest of us, in the butt.

Lord Calvert
Borderlands of Grand Niagara

I am beginning to think that people aren't actually reading this thread before replying... the issues you mention above have been dealt with repeatedly in the previous 8 pages.

it was three generations ago
Hindu beliefs originated in the Indus Valley civilization about 4,500 years ago. Much of the tradition that is now associated with Hinduism stems from the ritual and religion of the Aryans who invaded N India about 3,000 years ago.
... get over it, eh? :)


I agree with [violet] on this one - there is no other flag which has the same connotations of evil as the swastika. Sure, the stars and stripes, the union flag, the star of david, all have some negative associations. But, for the vast majority of the world, the swastika has only negative connotations.

Except for the ~1/7th of the world that lives in India and is Hindu. And another ~1/7th or two (maybe even three) that has never heard of Nazism because of the fact that they are either not educated enough to know of such, or they are in regions where the outside world has little influence on affairs, or they are in regions where there was no Nazi influence (i.e. most of Asia and Africa, when it comes down to it).

Incidentally, these people are also the least likely to come to Nationstates to play, due to their circumstances.

it was three generations ago
Hindu beliefs originated in the Indus Valley civilization about 4,500 years ago. Much of the tradition that is now associated with Hinduism stems from the ritual and religion of the Aryans who invaded N India about 3,000 years ago.
... get over it, eh? :)


I agree with [violet] on this one - there is no other flag which has the same connotations of evil as the swastika. Sure, the stars and stripes, the union flag, the star of david, all have some negative associations. But, for the vast majority of the world, the swastika has only negative connotations.

Except for the ~1/7th of the world that lives in India and is Hindu. And another ~1/7th or two (maybe even three) that has never heard of Nazism because of the fact that they are either not educated enough to know of such, or they are in regions where the outside world has little influence on affairs, or they are in regions where there was no Nazi influence (i.e. most of Asia and Africa, when it comes down to it).

Incidentally, these people are also the least likely to come to Nationstates to play, due to their circumstances.

Well, I did say vast majority, not all... anyway, as regards the hindu point:


SWASTIKA: The name swastika is derived from a sanskrit word that means ‘object of well being.’ In Hinduism, swastika is the sign of good-luck and is widely used in Hindu ceremonials and as a decorative motif. The right handed swastika moves in clock-wise direction (signify positive energy) and is always used while the left handed swastika moves in anti-clock-wise direction (signify negative energy/evil omen) and is never used.

{Because of association of the swastika with Nazism, the nations affected in the second world war regard it as a symbol of barbarity, but it will be worthy to note that the Hindu Swastika (right handed) is shaped in opposite direction to that of Nazi Swastika (left handed). Thus they are polarized and not the same thing.}.


And, as you say, the people who do not know the significance of the swastika are unlikely to be on here, so aren't entirely relevant to this issue.

A further point on flag banning: I've already now seen many fascist-leaning nations use the national flag of today's Germany. Can this really be what Germany wants by banning the nazi symbols: that Germany of today is associated with atrocities of WWII Germany? Can't they see that this banning policy is entirely counter-productive? Wouldn't it be so much "healthier" if there was this one universal symbol that everyone could use to represent evil? This way it wouldn't be gaining strength by its forbidden status the way it is gaining strength now.

Regarding the question whether I'd know about swastika if it weren't for the nazis: yes, I would. Reverse swastika was the symbol of my country's air force prior to WWII. Still, nazis made that particular symbol famous, no doubt. But it's hardly the fault of the symbol...

Well, Nitemere, the fascists are using the present German flag because they either are ignorant of the German flag's republican connotations, or that they are trying to hide their true leanings. The latter is the greater danger here, as we are all aware of the fascists' base ignorance.

In real life, the facsists and racists hide behind many non-swastika symbols (German imperial war flag, Confederate battle flag, Odal rune, Celtic cross, etc.). Here, we just have to be more vigilant, since the swastika is the easiest way to identify those silly Nazis.

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !

Adapt or die. Goodbye a**hole!
That's cute of you to roleplay with Who Gives a Damn like that Anbar. Or maybe you have had it taken by one of the others? :twisted:...... Pertaining to what Germanica did: It was cool; but there are so many other people that he could have talked into creating nations here and changing the forum, it's a shame.

Who are you? :?

]*SNIP!*

Don't 100% agree, but I think it is a good post all the same.

That said, how many N00bs saw Swastikas in there first few weeks?


I wouldn't call myself a n00b, but when I first started playing... uhm, yeah. Quite a number. I was actually wondering for a while if it was one of the game-provided standard flags, so I went through the list to find out otherwise again.

....well, that, and on closer inspection, none of the flags were exactly the same thing... of the ones I happened to see, at least... so it made sense to say they'd each uploaded their own file.

Still made me wonder, though...

Wow, very surpised about this. Where did you see them? In the game or in the forum? How did you run across Swastikas?

I didn't even go to the forums at first. Just the game itself, until I figured out (well, with having multiple nations, I figured it out within a matter of days) that as issues repeated readily, the issue-answering aspect of the game itself must not be the bulk of the game, when there were such extensive forums.

And I didn't think to try clicking links from the posters' names to view their countries until a little while after that.

Just going through the UN Daily World List was enough to see a slew of the monochromatic Nazi flags on several days... I don't remember which one or which ranking criteria it was, but on one of the days, I saw at least one per page for the first five pages or so... and on the pages after that, when I was just skipping through to get a general sense of what kind of other nations were out there.

Maybe a number of the swastika-flying nations happened to hold a similarly high ranking for whatever that day's criteria was, but I saw them enough to make me take notice.

Well, I'm not exactly against the patriot act myself, as it doesn't affect me.

But even if "everything is political" this isn't the place for political things that aren't also "technical".

The patriot act is crap, not a good thing for America and/or freedom. Comparing it to the Nazis is base and ill-thought.

Well, I'm not exactly against the patriot act myself, as it doesn't affect me.

But even if "everything is political" this isn't the place for political things that aren't also "technical".

The patriot act is crap, not a good thing for America and/or freedom. Comparing it to the Nazis is base and ill-thought.

Anyone who says the patriot act is crap - hasn't read it.

Go ahead - Prove me wrong and show me the passage in the patriot act that is - "crap" so to speak.

----------------------
Humor Troll - Putting the smack down on media junkies
------------------------------------------------------

Why did the chicken cross the playground??

To get to the other slide!!

Well, I'm not exactly against the patriot act myself, as it doesn't affect me.

But even if "everything is political" this isn't the place for political things that aren't also "technical".

The patriot act is crap, not a good thing for America and/or freedom. Comparing it to the Nazis is base and ill-thought.

Anyone who says the patriot act is crap - hasn't read it.

Go ahead - Prove me wrong and show me the passage in the patriot act that is - "crap" so to speak.

----------------------
Humor Troll - Putting the smack down on media junkies
------------------------------------------------------

Why did the chicken cross the playground??

To get to the other slide!!

I can tell you now that wil will disagree on this issue. I am a politcally astute, though not as much as I would wish, and I am familiar with the act in additon to the proposals Ashcroft has proposed since.


I would prefer not to use the forum to have such a discussion, but again, I think it is enough to say we will not agree on this issue.

I can tell you now that wil will disagree on this issue. I am a politcally astute, though not as much as I would wish, and I am familiar with the act in additon to the proposals Ashcroft has proposed since.


I would prefer not to use the forum to have such a discussion, but again, I think it is enough to say we will not agree on this issue.

Tranlsation:

"No - I haven't read it, I don't want to read it, and you're mean for pointing it out!"

"Wahhhhhhhhhhhhh"
---------------------
Humor Troll, Looking for a hankey for Ackbar
-----------------------------------------

What do you call a chicken with a disability? Hendicapped.

What do call a chicken who got too close to a nuclear plant? Atomic cluck.

Why did the rooster stay outside dring the blizzard. It was 'fowl' weather.

Which chicken is at the top of the pecking order? Attila the Hen.

Why does a chicken coop have two doors? With four doors it would be a chicken sedan.

Why did the chicken cross the playground? It wanted to get to the other slide.

Why did the chicken cross the internet? It wanted to get to the other site.

What do you call a rooster who wakes you up? An alarm cluck.

the swastikas is an old indian (from india, not native-american) symbol for good luck and fortune. hitler stole it and now it is assosicated with what he did to do to the jews, homosexuals, etc. this was bad, agreed. does this mean we should not let people use the american flag because of what we did to the blacks and indians?

:idea:
To complete our knowledge of the fascist trilogy... I have less universal agreement on this point, but I would also ban communist symbols, especially from the USSR prior to 1990. Communism is still an active ideology in the world and not everyone hates it as they do fascism (which itself has a few ignorant supporters). However the communists of the 20th century are responsible for as many millions dead through execution and genocide as the WW2 fascists.

Do you really have any idea what communism really is? James William Fulbright (an American Senator during the 40's and 50's) said:
"Doctrinal content of communism at it's worst is utopian."

Communism as was seen by the world was perverted, it was not really communism (to get a better understanding of this I recomend reading George Orwell's "Animal Farm".). In short communisn in the twentith century was used as a veil for dictators who perverted it through their own biases into what they belived it should have been.

The Issue

After over half a year of gameplay, the issue of the display of swastikas on nations' flags has been brought up.

The Debate

"Swastikas should NEVER be banned!" exclaims one adamant player. "It'd be a violation of the freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. Just because Hitler made it popular doesn't mean it doesn't still stand for something else, like in Hindu religion. This game's all about diversity and politics as it is.. so why ban swastikas, just because one group is offended by them because of something that happened three generations ago? Heck, there are other symbols-- fertility symbols and the like! Those don't have to be oppressed either, if that's a part of a culture someone wants to rp with! Down with facism! Down with dictatorship and oppression!"
[Accept]

"Well," says [violet], after a lot of deliberation, "it IS my server... and the swastika is a symbol that's tied very strongly to the Nazis of the Holocaust even today. I can't think of a symbol more universally loathed and detested. Except for senseless obscenities and pornography, I've let this game warrant a UN ranking of Anarchy. If someone wants to RP nazis, they can make up their own flag for it, and if they're adamant on a swastika, they can make a page on Geocities for it. It's my server, and this is one of the few things I'm going to say no to."

This is the position your government is preparing to adopt.

"But that's catering to just a few people," says one well-known crier for the right to not be even mildly offended. "I humbly demand that the admin outlaws nations having names saying that anything is stupid or dumb, and people that pretend to be of a certain group and act stupidly should be dealt with! I don't want to log on and go to the roleplaying forums to find someone pretending to be a hippie, yet they're an insult to hippies everywhere. I don't want to see crosses, since they remind me of the atrocities committed centuries ago even if it isn't what comes to mind readily for most people. I don't want to see the 'stars and bars' flag either, or the Communist hammer emblem, or pentagrams or the circled A of anarchists, or anything of the sort! This place should be completely neutral and friendly!"
[Accept]

The Government Position

The government has indicated its intention to follow the recommendations of Option 2.






Option 1 - raises political rights dramatically, raises crime a little bit, and hurts some people's feelings, while others rejoice. Two months later, someone in France sues Max Barry.

Option 2 - opens a topic for lengthy debate and allows people from both sides of the issue to be heard, while only lowering political freedom very slightly, since people are allowed to design their own non-swastika emblems still. Gives Max Barry peace of mind.

Option 3 - raises civil rights, dramatically reduces political rights, and the servers will work quickly and reliably 24/7, since the vast majority of players leave the game, reducing bandwidth usage to about 0.1% of what it was.







Couldn't resist, sorry.

:mrgreen:



<-- generally just trying to stay out of the debate for now... but the joke was there! 8)

ROFLMAO!!!

LMFAO!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I can tell you now that wil will disagree on this issue. I am a politcally astute, though not as much as I would wish, and I am familiar with the act in additon to the proposals Ashcroft has proposed since.


I would prefer not to use the forum to have such a discussion, but again, I think it is enough to say we will not agree on this issue.

Tranlsation:

"No - I haven't read it, I don't want to read it, and you're mean for pointing it out!"

"Wahhhhhhhhhhhhh"
---------------------
Humor Troll, Looking for a hankey for Ackbar
-----------------------------------------

What do you call a chicken with a disability? Hendicapped.

What do call a chicken who got too close to a nuclear plant? Atomic cluck.

Why did the rooster stay outside dring the blizzard. It was 'fowl' weather.

Which chicken is at the top of the pecking order? Attila the Hen.

Why does a chicken coop have two doors? With four doors it would be a chicken sedan.

Why did the chicken cross the playground? It wanted to get to the other slide.

Why did the chicken cross the internet? It wanted to get to the other site.

What do you call a rooster who wakes you up? An alarm cluck.

Have you drunken too much tonight? I generally disagree with you, but find your observations intelligent. All you are doing tonight is typing words sans the devloopment of argument or strong footing.

so, are you saying that it is not okay that I disagree with you, or that you do want to hijack a thread to discuss real world politcs?

the swastikas is an old indian (from india, not native-american) symbol for good luck and fortune. hitler stole it and now it is assosicated with what he did to do to the jews, homosexuals, etc. this was bad, agreed. does this mean we should not let people use the american flag because of what we did to the blacks and indians?

The Indian symbol is not slantted, as if in motion. This may be allowed, not sure. The Nazi symbol is on edge, as if a force in movement....

ripping off an idiotic political party is the bottom of the barrel as far as lame goes

The Issue

After over half a year of gameplay, the issue of the display of swastikas on nations' flags has been brought up.

The Debate

"Swastikas should NEVER be banned!" exclaims one adamant player. "It'd be a violation of the freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. Just because Hitler made it popular doesn't mean it doesn't still stand for something else, like in Hindu religion. This game's all about diversity and politics as it is.. so why ban swastikas, just because one group is offended by them because of something that happened three generations ago? Heck, there are other symbols-- fertility symbols and the like! Those don't have to be oppressed either, if that's a part of a culture someone wants to rp with! Down with facism! Down with dictatorship and oppression!"
[Accept]

"Well," says [violet], after a lot of deliberation, "it IS my server... and the swastika is a symbol that's tied very strongly to the Nazis of the Holocaust even today. I can't think of a symbol more universally loathed and detested. Except for senseless obscenities and pornography, I've let this game warrant a UN ranking of Anarchy. If someone wants to RP nazis, they can make up their own flag for it, and if they're adamant on a swastika, they can make a page on Geocities for it. It's my server, and this is one of the few things I'm going to say no to."

This is the position your government is preparing to adopt.

"But that's catering to just a few people," says one well-known crier for the right to not be even mildly offended. "I humbly demand that the admin outlaws nations having names saying that anything is stupid or dumb, and people that pretend to be of a certain group and act stupidly should be dealt with! I don't want to log on and go to the roleplaying forums to find someone pretending to be a hippie, yet they're an insult to hippies everywhere. I don't want to see crosses, since they remind me of the atrocities committed centuries ago even if it isn't what comes to mind readily for most people. I don't want to see the 'stars and bars' flag either, or the Communist hammer emblem, or pentagrams or the circled A of anarchists, or anything of the sort! This place should be completely neutral and friendly!"
[Accept]

The Government Position

The government has indicated its intention to follow the recommendations of Option 2.






Option 1 - raises political rights dramatically, raises crime a little bit, and hurts some people's feelings, while others rejoice. Two months later, someone in France sues Max Barry.

Option 2 - opens a topic for lengthy debate and allows people from both sides of the issue to be heard, while only lowering political freedom very slightly, since people are allowed to design their own non-swastika emblems still. Gives Max Barry peace of mind.

Option 3 - raises civil rights, dramatically reduces political rights, and the servers will work quickly and reliably 24/7, since the vast majority of players leave the game, reducing bandwidth usage to about 0.1% of what it was.







Couldn't resist, sorry.

:mrgreen:



<-- generally just trying to stay out of the debate for now... but the joke was there! 8)

Very good joke. Just hope it isn't used to imply people shouldn't debate... that said, well put.

ripping off an idiotic political party is the bottom of the barrel as far as lame goes


Errrm, okay.....?

ooc of course:No no, this won't do at all.
The American flag does represent evil, slaughter, oppression and suffering from the very begining. You can say America has done a lot of good too, unlike Nazi Germany, I mean America put a man on the moon, apparently.. wait..from where did they get the major technological boosts for that little affair? Oh! America erased the histories of Nazis.. of SS members simply to further American expansionism around the globe..and beyond it. As was suggested, America was founded on principals of inequality, oppression, war, murder and slavery.. Washington was a slave holder.. the rebels went to war on their own neighbours and families to better themselves.. they deliberately put civilians in the line of fire.. they almost certainly fired the first shots.. they murdered men in their sleep.. they tortured loyal colonists.. that's what America was founded on, that what the starts and stripes was born from. Since then America has attacked almost every populated region on earth and has been the only nation ever to use "WMD". America still kills its own citizens every year. America is a threat NOW, America has announced its intention to militarise space and bar access to all other nations, and made clear its intention to reject any attempt at veto by its supposed allies. America is as we bicker about seventy year dead ideology and atrocity working to dominate the entire planet and is directly causing massive suffering in many many parts of the world.
How in the hell can you justify banning one symbol under a system that accepts this?
I am offering no support for fascism or "national socialism" (my oppressive Nation State is contrary to most of my beliefs, even), but the idea that America's flag (and others) is (/are) okay because not everything the nation(s) has (/have) done has been evil while 30s-40s Germany's was only negative.. is absurd.
Nation States may not play the attempted extermination of the Jews, but may go along with the execution of popular democratic leaders, the insallation of *extreme right wing dictators* (sound familiar?), the sale of arms to dictators bent on genoci... arrrrgh, just accept that this decision is silly and wrong.

Why can I fly the flag of two million murdered Filipinos, two nuclear holocausts, five?..seven? million raped, oppressed and murdered stone-age peoples, and a military dictatorship of the entire planet, but not the flag of a failed and vastly understood evil guilty of significantly less menace?
(Not that I wish to, but then I don't wish to own a pet, sleep with a man, visit Spain or sip coffee in my front room, either.. the point being that others may)

(Oh, and freedom of speech is generally much more extensive in western and especially northern Europe than in the US, contrary to what some nuts seem to think)

I'm sorry, but you've become a bit too cynical for my tastes. While much of your little editorial is based on fact, following your logic, just about ANY government can be accused of being inherently evil. Using your arguments, a nation's evil is directly proportional to it's means. Very nihilistic. You may even be right, but if you are, you need to consider applying your argument to just about every other government that has ever existed.

Banning the swastika is one of the best things you can do for the National Socialist cause. However, I will not comply with your demand for me to take down my particular flags on this game. You can delete my nations instead.

This game is fast approaching its use-by date, and I'm hardly here anymore anyway. I may as well go out with a bang...

*Salutes [violet] with outstretched right arm*

F ( E D I T ) Y O U !

Adapt or die. Goodbye a**hole!
That's cute of you to roleplay with Who Gives a Damn like that Anbar. Or maybe you have had it taken by one of the others? :twisted:...... Pertaining to what Germanica did: It was cool; but there are so many other people that he could have talked into creating nations here and changing the forum, it's a shame.

I have no idea what you're talking about, in either the first or last statement. Care to elaborate?

Dear violet,

having read about your swastika issue, we urge you to prohibit all flags which have any COMMUNIST symbols on them.
Communism is the second ideology of the last century which takes responsibility for some millions of human beings cruely eliminated. Just because their victims had not the right ideology - were christians, buddhist, moslems - or not the appropriate class.
If banning swastikas should protect the victims of fascism and the remembrance of them, then it would be only consistent policy to ban communist flag symbols.
Otherwise your action - we beg your pardon - seems to be some sort of Political Correctness :oops: .
Yours sincerely

The Government of the Sephardish Diaspora

I'm still thinking that maybe swastikas can be used, but not used in a nation called "German....." or "Nazi....", neither should they be used in any nation with the same German/Holocaust quote or a German/Holocaust region.
Hey, worth a shot, eh? :P

Dear violet,

having read about your swastika issue, we urge you to prohibit all flags which have any COMMUNIST symbols on them.
Communism is the second ideology of the last century which takes responsibility for some millions of human beings cruely eliminated. Just because their victims had not the right ideology - were christians, buddhist, moslems - or not the appropriate class.
If banning swastikas should protect the victims of fascism and the remembrance of them, then it would be only consistent policy to ban communist flag symbols.
Otherwise your action - we beg your pardon - seems to be some sort of Political Correctness :oops: .
Yours sincerely

The Government of the Sephardish Diaspora


This is something I wrote many moons ago. I've actually states as much many times but this is the first example I found.

I find Swastikas offensive. Many will find the use of Hammer and sickles on the flags in my region offensive. National Socialists may find one my flags offensive. If you set a benchmark like this, first the Nazis go, then I go, then eventually an atmosphere pervades where 'ordinary' people get booted on some flimsy excuse. Being offended is the price one pays for having feelings. It does you no harm.

Since the moderator has made his decision firm regarding the usage of Nazi symbology by player nations and his reasoning behind it, I respectfully request that the ban be expanded to symbology of ideologically similar groups. If the ban is to be upheld then the following groups also need to be banned for the same reason:

All Christian symbology
All Muslim symbology
All Communist symbology
All Confederate symbology
All Jewish symbology

If the moderator is to be fair and consistent then these, and most likely many other groups must be banned. Such symbology, to the eyes of many, carry many of the same hatreds and many of the same beliefs as the group which has been banned. I think it would be very difficult to justify a ban against Nazi symbology which did not also ban Christian and Communist symbology, as the genocidal actions of those particular groups were much more vicious and lasted over a much greater period of time than those of the banned groups. Confederates and modern neo-Confederatism is ideologically indistinguishable from Nazism and should also be banned for the same reason. Lee and his men massacred more Americans than 100 Bin Ladens.

If the ban is not expanded I would be very curious to know the reasons why...why one group is banned when groups whose atrocities towards mankind are greater are allowed to remain.

Lord Calvert
Borderlands of Grand Niagara

No - the japanese flag does not send out the same hateful message as the Nazi swastika.


It's assinine to compare the two.

-------------------------------------
Humor Troll is getting Hungry
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We are Borg. <ESC> is futile <CTRL> is inevitable.

We are Daleks of Borg. ASSIMILATE! ASSI-MIL-ATE!!!!!!!

Yoooouuuuu'rreee Irrelevant! - Daffy Duck of Borg.

Tennis is irrelevant - Bjorn Borg.

The Borg are coming! Quick, try and look useless.

The Borg assimilated my race and all I got was this lousy T-shirt!

The Borg: Calm, Cool and Collective.

Do you ever, you know, say anything?

Do you ever, you know, say anything?

So spoken, by an alter with four posts.

Irony - Tasting metallic!

---------------------------------
Humor Troll - Four out of five Dentists approve!
---------------------------------------
Question: What did Will Riker say when he discovered that he had a transporter duplicate?
Answer: "We're Number One! We're Number One!"

Question: Why are Beverly Crusher, Worf, and Deanna Troi similar?
Answer: Because one's a Doc, one's a Worf, and one's a Marina.

Question: What does Major Kira's emergency signal sound like?
Answer: NANA NANA NANA NANA.

Question: Did you hear about the singing contest for young men at Starfleet Academy?
Answer: It's called the Kirk Tenor Prize.

The funny thing, LM, is that they cant argue with what you've said previously, so now they accuse you of making substance-less posts...

The funny thing, LM, is that they cant argue with what you've said previously, so now they accuse you of making substance-less posts...

Yeah - I realize that - But that just frees me to be my alter ego

the superhero - HUMOR TROLL!

-------------------------------
Humor Troll - As seen on TV!
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Question: How many of the Enterprise's senior officers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Answer: All of them. One to screw it in, and the rest to debate the moral implications.

Question: What did LaForge say when his girlfriend asked him what to wear on their date?
Answer: "I'm BLIND!"

Question: What did Lore use to kill Data's cat?
Answer:Spot remover.

Question: What do you call it when that Strategic Operations Officer on DS9 runs as fast as he can?
Answer: Worf Speed.

All of you guys kleep saying, "If your gonna ban the nazi swastika, ban the confederate flag, the communist flag, the christian flag, buddhit, hindu, "whatever, but you all seem to be forgetting one little thing. There was one country, more than any other, that Hitler said inspired him to do what he did. And i propose we ban this country's flag. The country was The United States Of America, and Hitler never would have thought an extermination of a race of people were possible if it had not been that The United States could exterminate millions and millions of Indians. Now, I dont want to make America look evil here, so while we're banning that flag, we also must ban the Spanish flag, the British flag, the French flag, really almost all of the flags from Europe in that time period.

Not that any of this matters, it won't make this [violet] fellow look at my post anymore than he obviously did any of yours. And I'm sure all of you will choose to debate this. Go ahead. Sorry if I dont pay attention.

Problem is none of those flags are illegal in a country.

the public display of a swastika is!
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Four out of five Doctors Agree - Humor Troll is the best!
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Question: Why couldn't Kira get permanent quarters on DS9?
Answer: Because everybody knew she was a Visitor.

Question: What did the senior staff of DS9 sing when Kira was packing to leave
at the beginning of "The Circle"?
Answer: Nana, Nana . . . Nana, Nana . . . Hey, hey, hey, goodbye!

Question: What do you do if O'Brien refuses to fix your ship after you dock at DS9?
Answer: Colm Meaney. (For those of you who don't know "Colm" isn't pronounced "Kohlm." It's pronounced more like "column.")

Question: What is Sisko's favorite breakfast?
Answer: Quarker Oates.

It's true that it's inarguable. Nevertheless, I find your posts annoying, particulalry because of your automated entry of a "signature" which appears as normal text, leading readers to believe that it is important. However, it is not important.

From the mouth of Ward Churchill over a decade ago in his article "Deconstructing the Columbus myth: was the 'great discoverer' Italian or Spanish, Nazi or Jew?" in the summer '92 issue of Social Justice.

The whole notion of the "uniqueness of the Holocaust" serves both psychic and political purposes for Jew and German alike, or so it seems. The two groups are bound to one another in a truly symbiotic relationship founded on the mythic exclusivity of their experience: half the equation simply completes the other in a perverse sort of collaboration, so that each enjoys a tangible benefit.

For Jews, at least those who have adopted the Zionist perspective, a "unique historical suffering" under Nazism translates into fulfillment of a Biblical prophecy that they are "the chosen," entitled by virtue of the destiny of a special persecution to assume a rarefied status among -- and to consequently enjoy preferential treatment from -- the remainder of humanity. In essence, this translates into a demand that the Jewish segment of the Holocaust's victims must now be allowed to participate equally in the very system that once victimized them and to receive an equitable share of the spoils accruing from it. To this end, Zionist scholars such as Irving Louis Horowitz and Elie Weisel have labored long and mightily, defining genocide in terms exclusively related to the forms it assumed under Nazism. In their version of "truth," one must literally see smoke pouring from the chimneys of Auschwitz to apprehend that a genocide, per se, is occurring.(1) Conversely, they have coined terms such as "ethnocide" to encompass the fates inflicted upon other peoples throughout history.(2) Such semantics have served, not as tools of understanding, but as an expedient means of arbitrarily differentiating the experience of their people -- both qualitatively and quantitatively -- from that of any other. To approach things in any other fashion would, it must be admitted, tend to undercut ideas like the "moral right" of the Israeli settler state to impose itself directly atop the Palestinian Arab homeland.

For Germans to embrace a corresponding "unique historical guilt" because of what was done to the Jews during the 1940s is to permanently absolve themselves of guilt concerning what they may be doing now. No matter how ugly things may become in contemporary German society, or so the reasoning goes, it can always be (and is) argued that there has been a marked improvement over the "singular evil that was Nazism." Anything other than outright nazification is, by definition, "different ... .. better," and therefore "acceptable." ("Bad as they are, things could always be worse.") Business as usual -- which is to say assertions of racial supremacy, domination, and exploitation of "inferior" groups, and most of the rest of the Nazi agenda -- is thereby freed to continue in a manner essentially unhampered by serious stirrings of guilt among the German public so long as it does not adopt the literal trappings of Nazism. Participating for profit and with gusto in the deliberate starvation of much of the Third World is no particular problem if one is careful not to goose step while one does it.

By extension, insofar as Germany is often seen (and usually sees itself) as exemplifying the crowning achievements of "Western Civilization," the same principle covers all European and Euro-derived societies. No matter what they do, it is never "really" what it seems unless it was done in precisely the fashion the Nazis did it. Consequently, the Nazi master plan of displacing or reducing by extermination the population of the western USSR and replacing it with settlers of "biologically superior German breeding stock" is roundly (and rightly) condemned as ghastly and inhuman. Meanwhile, people holding this view of Nazi ambitions tend overwhelmingly to see consolidation and maintenance of Euro-dominated settler states in places like Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Argentina, the United States, and Canada as "basically okay," or even as "progress." The "distinction" allowing this psychological phenomenon is that each of these states went about the intentional displacement and extermination of native populations, and their replacement, in a manner slightly different in its particulars from that employed by Nazis attempting to accomplish exactly the same thing. Such technical differentiation is then magnified and used as a sort of all-purpose veil, behind which almost anything can be hidden, so long as it is not openly adorned with a swastika.

Look, while banning the Nazi flag in a pitty-pat nice way appeases those who openly whine about it, you should start moving on to every flag ever associated with any kind of mass racial slaughter. It's been said enough times, and it's the truth. Additionally, I don't get the banning of the correctly-oriented swastika. It's a religious symbol, often though of as a mark of good luck, and is likely unfortunately discriminatory to prevent the use of its traditional forms by religious sects to which it is of some significance.

Additionally, coddling the anti-swastika advocates is sending the message that representations once used to identify any other group which sanctioned genocide are now acceptable. You give the perception that the senseless deaths of countless others are "not as bad," and "more justifiable." If it's going to be a ban on the symbols of heinous hierarchies and symbols which look similar, it's time to do it in a non-discriminatory manner...

I guess that means Galdago's flag needs to be recut then I suppose?

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/galdago.jpg

That sun certainly does bear some sort of STRIKING resemblance to that of imperial Japan. I mean, my goodness, the sun is certainly off center to the left and has many rays... he MUST be condoning the actions of that radical regime. It's a ridiculous double standard that I find wholly intollerable, just as much so as those who would advocate recreation of the Nazi agenda. Neo-nazis are utterly reprehensible to me, but I'm not for banning their representations of their ideologies. There will always be lurkers who will hold feelings in their hearts that mimmick those of Hitler, Himmler, and every other Nazi bastard who ever crawled the face of this planet. Just because we can't "call them on it" is not a reason to take this kind of punitive and discriminatory action. I'm all about equity, even if these slime are not, and I'm not about to question specific instances of this kind of representation without questioning them all without prejudice.

As for a potential suit against Max Barry... #1) legal disclaimer? Hello? #2) how the hell do you sue someone for THAT and win? Honestly?

Problem is none of those flags are illegal in a country.

the public display of a swastika is!

In that case someone's going to have to explain to me how legal suit was brought against states with confederate symbols still remaining in their state flag and why my high school, whose mascot was the rebel, has had to change its mascot from a confederate soldier to some sort of strange somebrero-wearing mexican with a shot gun and why we're not permitted to display rebel flags at any school function. While I suppose it isn't "illegal," it can still easily cost you a civil suit, meaning there must be some kind of legal grounds for my money to be taken away from me.

OK, I had a big response to Galdago (though I agree with him whole-heartedly), while playing the Devil's advocate (listing reasons the anti-Swastika group would use to escape such claims) but my browser crashed. In any case, I'll just states that everyone who is vehemently anti-nazi/swastika will attack your claims for various possibly-founded-possibly-unfounded reasons. Mostly the latter. As for the few truly founded reasons they will use:

- Most people are too ignorant to associate the swastika with anything other than Nazi Germany, let alone understand the differences in orientation of the symbol.
- The legality of posting such, even with a legal disclaimer. I don't know how the Yahoo case turned out (the reasoning for the verdict), but I do know that Google has taken steps to remove Neo-Nazi/racist/anti-Zionist websites from its French and German search engines (Will provide link to this Harvard led survey later), most likely for fear of being attacks for merely allowing people to ACCESS them. I do not know how secure a Legal Disclaimer is in other countries where a site is visible, but does no actual business in that country (e.g. Nationstates).

My last nation was annexed because i declared war on a nazi, they need to just die already!

It's true that it's inarguable. Nevertheless, I find your posts annoying, particulalry because of your automated entry of a "signature" which appears as normal text, leading readers to believe that it is important. However, it is not important.

HAH - All is important in the eyes of the Humor Troll!

Prepare to cringe under my latest assault of chicken jokes!

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Ladies? Have that "not so fresh" Feeling? Shower with Humor Troll!
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Why did the chicken Cross the road?
YODA: Crossing the road makes not a chicken great.
VADER: Because it could not resist the power of the Dark Side.
LUKE: Crossing the road is one thing, this is.... totally different.
LUKE: I want to follow the ways of the chicken and cross the road like my father.

As for a potential suit against Max Barry... #1) legal disclaimer? Hello? #2) how the hell do you sue someone for THAT and win? Honestly?

Bwah hahahahahahha! A legal Disclaimer.

Oh, that's rich - really rich.

First off, Legal disclaimers do not protect against illegal procedures.

And second - HE'D STILL HAVE TO TRAVEL TO FRANCE TO DEFEND HIMSELF!

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Humor Troll - Anatomically correct since 1966
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Why did the chicken cross the road?

LEIA: I don't know... but I have a bad feeling about this.
HAN: Hurry up, colonel sanders, or you're gonna be a permanent resident!
THREEPIO: I am fluent in over six million ways of crossing the road.
ARTOO: beep beep be bop.
CHEWIE: Gwrrroooooaaaarrrrrrlllllll!
BEN: Cross the road, chicken. Let go, chicken. Chicken - trust me.

Problem is none of those flags are illegal in a country.

the public display of a swastika is!

In that case someone's going to have to explain to me how legal suit was brought against states with confederate symbols still remaining in their state flag and why my high school, whose mascot was the rebel, has had to change its mascot from a confederate soldier to some sort of strange somebrero-wearing mexican with a shot gun and why we're not permitted to display rebel flags at any school function. While I suppose it isn't "illegal," it can still easily cost you a civil suit, meaning there must be some kind of legal grounds for my money to be taken away from me.


In the US there is a significant difference between individual expression and government support or recognition. The example you brought forward involved government support at functions paid for at taxpayer expense. If you wish to promote the Confederacy you are free to do so at your own expense and on your own property however you cannot require the government, no matter at what level, to recognize or sponsor such activity. If you wish to sponsor a Constitutional amendment to repeal all or parts of Article VI and the 1st, 4th and 14th Amendments you are free to do so as long as the procudure indicated in the Constitution is followed. Oklahoma congressman Ernest Istook is going through precisely that right now.

One argument that's come up a lot is banning the American flag along with the swastika. This has been used because of the oppression of Native Americans, slaves, etc.
One thing many people have forgotten is that nearly all of the "civilized" nations of Europe also owned slaves. Even rich African nations owned slaves, and, in some parts of Africa, the slave trade still exists. What about apartheid in British South Africa? What about the Catholic/Protestant conflict in Ireland? You could also blame the Spanish for allowing Columbus to open up the Americas to slavery and colonization. And Italy too, because, well, Columbus was Italian! Let's ban all European flags as well.

Just a reminder I support the decision posted by Violet. Whether he/she is Max Berry is of no consequence to that decision. Even though my mother owns a quilt made by a Finnish family in the 1890's that has the "straight up and down" swastika symbol on it, I wouldn't use that symbol in public now. Too many people are ignorant of the fact that it could mean anything other than Naziism. As for having counter clockwize etc, too many people mistakenly draw the swastika already, so it makes no difference.
The USSR itself is responsible for the death of at least 10 million in the Ukraine, millions in Khazakstan, turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Poland (the Katyn forest massacre in 1940) Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland (1939-1945) eastern europe from 1945 to 1990. As for the rest, Pol Pot, Long Min, Vietnam, China, you all have mentioned them. Yes they did kill more than the Fascist axis did.
Doctrinal Communisim (sic) is irrelevant because nations are not governed by doctrinal anything. Even Baalism was not doctrinal. If Judaism were doctrinal there would have been no need for Babylon. As for blaming America, well show me one country where Capitalist Democracy has been allowed to exist in it's pure doctrinal form ? Nations are run by corrupt, ambitious and worst of all HUMAN people, who can't even make up their minds when they're being altruistic. History records actual behavior, not intentions.
I'm impressed by the level of argument that has occured since I dredged up this ruling by Violet. IT is rare that hate groups spray anything but swastikas on graffiti, but I have seen one or two japanese symbols (pro and against , usually against) and that is ethnic hatred. I even saw graffit that said " GET US OUT OF UN " .. ah.. UN as a hate symbol ? no. seriously it makes a significant difference when a symbol is used in current well known hate speech. Aryan organizations and the Klan are fond of using christiam symbols to make you think " God is with us" ( european belt buckle slogan, even in dutch it's gott jet mit uns ) This is called christian identity propaganda, to decieve you about their true beliefs. I would ban aryan symbols on a game if I had one, but not flags such as Norway, Sweden, or the Vatican.
I do use swastikas on my games, but not in public. When I bomb a fat little nazi tank I want it to have a real swastika on it so I can watch it burn.
Finally, to avoid offending anyone, I'll use the decision that magicians Penn and Teller made. Henceforth , the nationa symbol of the Republic of Vanadu is one thing, and only one thing. the :!: MARSHMALLOW :!: - no peeps, no sprinkles, nothing added to it. no slogans. on a plane featureless background. If anyone is offended by this choice, please telegram the Vanadian consulate on my nations home page, or respond here.
Vanadu : We are marshmallows ! Please don't attack us !

One argument that's come up a lot is banning the American flag along with the swastika. This has been used because of the oppression of Native Americans, slaves, etc.
One thing many people have forgotten is that nearly all of the "civilized" nations of Europe also owned slaves. Even rich African nations owned slaves, and, in some parts of Africa, the slave trade still exists. What about apartheid in British South Africa? What about the Catholic/Protestant conflict in Ireland? You could also blame the Spanish for allowing Columbus to open up the Americas to slavery and colonization. And Italy too, because, well, Columbus was Italian! Let's ban all European flags as well.

:lol:

Seems like yet another vote for Option Three... a sarcastic one, yes, but nevertheless....

<-- enjoys just watching how this unfolds for now :mrgreen:

As for a potential suit against Max Barry... #1) legal disclaimer? Hello? #2) how the hell do you sue someone for THAT and win? Honestly?

Bwah hahahahahahha! A legal Disclaimer.

Oh, that's rich - really rich.

First off, Legal disclaimers do not protect against illegal procedures.

And second - HE'D STILL HAVE TO TRAVEL TO FRANCE TO DEFEND HIMSELF!

First I'd like you to show me that Nationstates would be liable regardless of whether or not they waived liability for what their users say. That's the key point that this hinges on. Secondly, I'm not quite sure what France can do legally to a person who lives in Australia (as opposed to a multi-national corporation such as Yahoo!).

First I'd like you to show me that Nationstates would be liable regardless of whether or not they waived liability for what their users say. That's the key point that this hinges on. Secondly, I'm not quite sure what France can do legally to a person who lives in Australia (as opposed to a multi-national corporation such as Yahoo!).

Too freaking easy!

First - to see where legal disclaimers aren't worth the time used in typing them Check out DirecTV versus the multiple Canadian Card coding sites. Despite "legal Disclaimers" and the fact that "hacking" the signal wasn't illegal in Canade, DirecTV took down dozens and dozens of sites and used the records to continue prosecuting folks who'd visit those sites.

And second - It's not what "France" would do - it's the individual suing in France, then collecting against Max when a default judgement is handed to theem, Couple that with the more restrictive government in Australia, and Max would have a huge problem on his hands (as well as a costly one).

Please - Stop embarrasing yourself. At least pay attention to what's happening on the net with all the new legislation evolving before you "challenge"

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Humor Troll - Nuttin but net!
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Why did the chicken cross the road?
BOBA FETT: What if the chicken doesn't survive? He's worth a lot to me!
WEDGE: My scope shows the other side but it looks really far, are you sure you can cross it?
JERJERROD: The chicken is crossing the road? We shall double our efforts.
BIB: Die chicken wanga?
BIGGS: At that speed, will you be able to cross in time?
TARKIN: The regional governors now have direct control over their chickens. Fear will keep those chickens in line... fear of getting hit by a car!
UNCLE OWEN: I told you to forget it. You're only concern is to cross that road.

Lots of people seem to be saying that a) banning the swastika is hurting free speech and b) if the swastika is banned, then the hammer and sickle, stars and stripes, union flag etc should be too.That doesn't actually follow - similarly, the fact that the USA invaded Iraq doesn't mean that it should necessarily invade, say, Zimbabwe too, even though Zimbabwe also has human rights issues.

It does hurt free speech, but free speech must sometimes be countered - even the US Supreme Court admit that in cases where it goes beyond liberty into licence, sometimes curbing is necessary. But it should be limited as little as possible, and that is what banning the swastika, but not other symbols, does.

First I'd like you to show me that Nationstates would be liable regardless of whether or not they waived liability for what their users say. That's the key point that this hinges on. Secondly, I'm not quite sure what France can do legally to a person who lives in Australia (as opposed to a multi-national corporation such as Yahoo!).

Too freaking easy!

First - to see where legal disclaimers aren't worth the time used in typing them Check out DirecTV versus the multiple Canadian Card coding sites. Despite "legal Disclaimers" and the fact that "hacking" the signal wasn't illegal in Canade, DirecTV took down dozens and dozens of sites and used the records to continue prosecuting folks who'd visit those sites.

Were they (the offenders) based in Canada? Does DirecTV have a physical presence in Canada? If the answer to both is yes, then this argument of yours is invalid. (As another questionable matter, that case is potentially regarding copyright laws, which do apply in (almost) every country).

And second - It's not what "France" would do - it's the individual suing in France, then collecting against Max when a default judgement is handed to theem, Couple that with the more restrictive government in Australia, and Max would have a huge problem on his hands (as well as a costly one).

How's the individual going to collect from a foreign national not currently in the country? Tell me that and we can argue this point. If the individual can't collect against a foreign national, then I don't think there's a problem.

Please - Stop embarrasing yourself. At least pay attention to what's happening on the net with all the new legislation evolving before you "challenge"

Show me the legislation and judicial proof of examples that CLOSELY match this particular case.

even the US Supreme Court admit that in cases where it goes beyond liberty into licence, sometimes curbing is necessary.

Are you referring to the "clear and present danger" clause as established in Schenck v. United States (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States)? If so, then this does not fall under this clause (as I don't see how this is "clear and present danger"). If you think that allowing Nazi symbols in effect endorses them, that's up to the administrator alone, and can be bound by legal clauses, but I do not believe for a minute that that applies here either. Nevertheless, you are correct in which there are instances in which a country must limit free speech to save itself. It is my opinion, however, that free use of the swastika is not one of them (regardless of the opinions of other countries).

He was probably referring to the famous quote "My right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins"... In other words, yes, there are liberties in the US. However, they can only go so far before they begin to impede other's liberties.

Actually, I wasn't referring to anything specifically, just that there have been occasions when even America, supposedly the bastion of free speech, has had reason to curb it.

And if you state it that way, I will agree with you (Feel free to use Schenk v. US as an example). I do not, however, agree that the swastika is necessary under this. In any case, considering the difficulty in actually removing offenders (having to take the time to alert them if they have not been already and then delete them, or not even alerting them), I hereby propose the following plan:

1. Swastikas are allowed.
2. Instead there shall be a list of nations utilizing swastikas. This list could then be used to set up an option (on by default, so as not to cause further problems for people who do not know about the situation) whereby nations with Nazi flags would either be completely invisible, or would merely not show their flags. In essence: A swastika flag blacklist.

Ideally, aside from time spent in implementation (perhaps the only major downside to this option, and the only major downside in actually getting such an option approved), this would be no harder to maintain than forcefully taking care of countries with swastika flags (as all that would need to be done would be to just have game moderators click a checkmark on offending countries instead of deleting without warning, which doubtless would take just as much time.)

In addition, perhaps to soothe the countries opposed to this (supposing that they want to switch to a non-swastika/offensive flag in the future), the list entry could preliminarily be removed (or perhaps marked for review/removal) upon the choosing of a new flag, or uploading of a new flag. Alternately, they might have to petition to be removed from the blacklist (or moved to a restricted upload list) so that they couldn't cheat to make it visible through any loopholes.

I'm certain a proposal like this could easily be seen as agreeable by all parties (save [violet] as she's the one who must actually do the coding, and she may choose to refuse, on the grounds that it would require her to do too much work).

Were they (the offenders) based in Canada?
Yes
Does DirecTV have a physical presence in Canada? NO! In fact - Directv refuses to allow the sales of its equiptment to canada because of their rules on television. Directv DOES NOT have offices in Canada - they do NOT do Business in Canada.
If the answer to both is yes, then this argument of yours is invalid. (As another questionable matter, that case is potentially regarding copyright laws, which do apply in (almost) every country).Too bad it is valid...LOL


How's the individual going to collect from a foreign national not currently in the country? Same way Directv takes over canadian sites. Collection Agencies, Harrasment, damage to credit.
Tell me that and we can argue this point. If the individual can't collect against a foreign national, then I don't think there's a problem.
So then -= Put up Max's defense fund for ten years. Put your money where your mouth is, and ten years from now collect your funds with interest.


Show me the legislation and judicial proof of examples that CLOSELY match this particular case.

Why? When you're talking out of your ass and have no idea what's going on in the legal world? The little time I've wasted educating you shows just how small your fly being smashed by my Buick is.

Your turn - Show me why Directv shouldn't be able to do what it's doing in Canada - show me how all those (fifty I believe) sites can regain their domains and put back up their message boards.

You can't.

you won't.

You'd rather call for example after example and even after your face was mushed into the pile of proof, you'd still try to weasel your way out of it.

C'mon - man up, strap a pair on - Show me how Directv operationg out of the United States is allowed to take down canadiam sites and WHY THEY SHOULDN'T be ABLE to!

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Punk Daddy Humor Troll - Smackin down the tap dogs - WORD!
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Why did the chicken cross the road?
AUNT BERU: He can't stay here forever. Most of his friends have already crossed. It means so much to him.
ADMIRAL ACKBAR: All chickens - prepare to cross the road on my mark
LANDO: Why you slimy, no good, double-crossing chicken!! You got a lot of guts crossing that road, after what you pulled!
EMPEROR: Young fool. Only now, after getting hit by a car do you understand.
JABBA: Bo shuda chicken!

the nazi flag is clock-wise, can we have them in an anti clockwise direction?

If one is familiar with ancient Buddhist and Daoist symbols they will note the presence of this symbol in the Far East. The "reversed" swastika appears frequently as a symbol of an ardent follower's good will and life spirit and is considered holy. It is also a symbol indicating that vegetarian food can be purchased where the symbol appears. Visitors not familiar with Asian culture find encountering this for the first time to be quite a shock, particularily if they come up on one of these symbols on a hanging sign from behind. It should be noted that this symbol is displayed flat whereas the Nazi swastika is propped up on one corner.

How the Nazi's selected their symbol is not known to me though the inspiration for the South African para military three legged variant is obvious.

This is provided merely for background information. However, as history so often shows, how a message is received always prevails over how a message was mean't and in that light we should always consider carefully what any given symbol means to others.

Daedalus First Citizen of Kasei Valles

And if you state it that way, I will agree with you (Feel free to use Schenk v. US as an example). I do not, however, agree that the swastika is necessary under this. In any case, considering the difficulty in actually removing offenders (having to take the time to alert them if they have not been already and then delete them, or not even alerting them), I hereby propose the following plan:

1. Swastikas are allowed.
2. Instead there shall be a list of nations utilizing swastikas. This list could then be used to set up an option (on by default, so as not to cause further problems for people who do not know about the situation) whereby nations with Nazi flags would either be completely invisible, or would merely not show their flags. In essence: A swastika flag blacklist.

Ideally, aside from time spent in implementation (perhaps the only major downside to this option, and the only major downside in actually getting such an option approved), this would be no harder to maintain than forcefully taking care of countries with swastika flags (as all that would need to be done would be to just have game moderators click a checkmark on offending countries instead of deleting without warning, which doubtless would take just as much time.)

In addition, perhaps to soothe the countries opposed to this (supposing that they want to switch to a non-swastika/offensive flag in the future), the list entry could preliminarily be removed (or perhaps marked for review/removal) upon the choosing of a new flag, or uploading of a new flag. Alternately, they might have to petition to be removed from the blacklist (or moved to a restricted upload list) so that they couldn't cheat to make it visible through any loopholes.

I'm certain a proposal like this could easily be seen as agreeable by all parties (save [violet] as she's the one who must actually do the coding, and she may choose to refuse, on the grounds that it would require her to do too much work).

And then the nations wanting to fly the swastika claim their other freedoms are being denied because of the blacklist...

Here's a good reason why the DirecTV case may be applicable:

They use Canadian law to prosecute the Canadians:

From Freedom Fight (http://www.freedomfight.ca/dtv.php)
The owner of The Pirates Den has declined their offer of a preliminary settlement. Counsel for Directv has indicated that legal action will be forthcoming, pursuant to Canadian law and The Canadian RadioCommunications Act, as interpreted by the Canadian Supreme Court Decision, April 2002.

While I admit it is on shaky ground due to the fact that Pirate's Den does nothing in the US, and DirecTV does nothing in Canada, the fact that DirecTV is using LOCAL law to prosecute the offenders lends GREATER creedence to their case than were they to use the American DMCA.

As there is no Australian law for the hypothetical Frenchman to sue under, he would be forced to use French law, which would require prosecuting a foreign national who is not present in France. This again raises the issue of how it would ever be legal for them to even TRY to collect over international borders.

And if you state it that way, I will agree with you (Feel free to use Schenk v. US as an example). I do not, however, agree that the swastika is necessary under this. In any case, considering the difficulty in actually removing offenders (having to take the time to alert them if they have not been already and then delete them, or not even alerting them), I hereby propose the following plan:

1. Swastikas are allowed.
2. Instead there shall be a list of nations utilizing swastikas. This list could then be used to set up an option (on by default, so as not to cause further problems for people who do not know about the situation) whereby nations with Nazi flags would either be completely invisible, or would merely not show their flags. In essence: A swastika flag blacklist.

Ideally, aside from time spent in implementation (perhaps the only major downside to this option, and the only major downside in actually getting such an option approved), this would be no harder to maintain than forcefully taking care of countries with swastika flags (as all that would need to be done would be to just have game moderators click a checkmark on offending countries instead of deleting without warning, which doubtless would take just as much time.)

In addition, perhaps to soothe the countries opposed to this (supposing that they want to switch to a non-swastika/offensive flag in the future), the list entry could preliminarily be removed (or perhaps marked for review/removal) upon the choosing of a new flag, or uploading of a new flag. Alternately, they might have to petition to be removed from the blacklist (or moved to a restricted upload list) so that they couldn't cheat to make it visible through any loopholes.

I'm certain a proposal like this could easily be seen as agreeable by all parties (save [violet] as she's the one who must actually do the coding, and she may choose to refuse, on the grounds that it would require her to do too much work).

And then the nations wanting to fly the swastika claim their other freedoms are being denied because of the blacklist...

It is true that it is censorship, but it is better than completely banning them entirely. It would no doubt placate the majority of the non-Swastika users who oppose the current rule (I for one would be pleased, as it would still offer a way for the Swastika to be seen).

Here's a good reason why the DirecTV case may be applicable:

They use Canadian law to prosecute the Canadians:

From Freedom Fight (http://www.freedomfight.ca/dtv.php)
The owner of The Pirates Den has declined their offer of a preliminary settlement. Counsel for Directv has indicated that legal action will be forthcoming, pursuant to Canadian law and The Canadian RadioCommunications Act, as interpreted by the Canadian Supreme Court Decision, April 2002.

While I admit it is on shaky ground due to the fact that Pirate's Den does nothing in the US, and DirecTV does nothing in Canada, the fact that DirecTV is using LOCAL law to prosecute the offenders lends GREATER creedence to their case than were they to use the American DMCA.

As there is no Australian law for the hypothetical Frenchman to sue under, he would be forced to use French law, which would require prosecuting a foreign national who is not present in France. This again raises the issue of how it would ever be legal for them to even TRY to collect over international borders.

LOL - Turning to google eh?

You are looking only at the latest case - not the previous 49.

Pirates Den most likely will be able to shake off Directv. But only because of the publicity.

And before you start quoting Jurisdictions - Check out the case against Sykarov.

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Not even breaking a sweat - Humor Troll - Getting ready for Stargate SQ1 premiere in 15 minutes!
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Lines from Star Wars that can be improved if you substitute the word "Pants" for key words
And now for some childish toilet humour (hehe)

We've got to be able to get some reading on those pants, up or down.
The pants may not look like much, kid, but they've got it where it counts.
I find your lack of pants disturbing.
These pants contain the ultimate power in the Universe. I suggest we use it.
Han will have those pants down. We've got to give him more time!
General Veers, prepare your pants for a ground assault.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants back home.
TK-421... Why aren't you in your pants?

You do realize, that by implementing something such as you posted, there would be a whole new can of worms opened up. Not only would there be the issue of these nations not being given the same freedom of expression because they want to use the swastika, you are now going to blacklist them because of their political viewpoints.

Here's a good reason why the DirecTV case may be applicable:

They use Canadian law to prosecute the Canadians:

From Freedom Fight (http://www.freedomfight.ca/dtv.php)
The owner of The Pirates Den has declined their offer of a preliminary settlement. Counsel for Directv has indicated that legal action will be forthcoming, pursuant to Canadian law and The Canadian RadioCommunications Act, as interpreted by the Canadian Supreme Court Decision, April 2002.

While I admit it is on shaky ground due to the fact that Pirate's Den does nothing in the US, and DirecTV does nothing in Canada, the fact that DirecTV is using LOCAL law to prosecute the offenders lends GREATER creedence to their case than were they to use the American DMCA.

As there is no Australian law for the hypothetical Frenchman to sue under, he would be forced to use French law, which would require prosecuting a foreign national who is not present in France. This again raises the issue of how it would ever be legal for them to even TRY to collect over international borders.

LOL - Turning to google eh?

You are looking only at the latest case - not the previous 49.

Pirates Den most likely will be able to shake off Directv. But only because of the publicity.

And before you start quoting Jurisdictions - Check out the case against Sykarov.

Sklyarov is indeed a more troublesome case, but the fact is that he was present in the US as of his arrest:

From FreeSklyarov.org (http://www.freesklyarov.org)
Dmitry was arrested July 17, 2001 in Las Vegas, NV, at the behest of Adobe Systems, according to the DOJ complaint, and charged with distributing a product designed to circumvent copyright protection measures (the AEBPR).

In such a case, yes, Max would be elegible were he to go to France/Germany. If he did not go, that is another ballpark (and that is the one I am addressing, if you note that every time I state that he is NOT PRESENT in France).

Like hell he doesn't. He does Business world wide.

He sells his books.

So - Game over - Checkmate.

By selling books in France - just like Yahoo - He's liable.

And thanks for acknowledging (thru saying the bit about sykarov) that Max would be liable by the countries.

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Humor Troll - off for a few hours to watch Stargate SG-1

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Lines from Star Wars that can be improved if you substitute the word "Pants" for key words

Lock the door. And hope they don't have pants.
You are unwise to lower your pants.
She must have hidden the plans in her pants. Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally Commander.
Governor Tarkin. I recognized your foul pants when I was brought on board.
You look strong enough to pull the pants of a Gundark.
Luke... Help me remove these pants.
Great, Chewie, great. Always thinking with your pants.
That blast came from those pants. That thing's operational!
A tremor in the pants. The last time I felt this was in the presence of my old master.

You do realize, that by implementing something such as you posted, there would be a whole new can of worms opened up. Not only would there be the issue of these nations not being given the same freedom of expression because they want to use the swastika, you are now going to blacklist them because of their political viewpoints.

It's true that this is just as shaky, but would you not agree that they currently believe that they are already being attacked for their political viewpoints? If so, then there is little difference in that regard. As for the limited freedom of expression:

If [violet] wants people who cannot tolerate hate speech to not have to see swastikas (which would appear to be the main reasoning behind the initial ruling), then what's the difference in restricting the ability to view it through an option from completely REMOVING the ability to view it?

So admittedly, there is little benefit for the Nazi states, but there is less loss (in that they can keep their flags), and the free-speech advocates who are not raving extremists (and claim that anyone should see anything) should benefit as there is still the ABILITY to voice free speech, even if the audience is made smaller.

Thirdly, Nazi states don't risk deletion for retaining a swastika (assuming they are not aware of what is going on in here, as I believe they are not, for the most part)

Like hell he doesn't. He does Business world wide.

He sells his books.

Now this approaches the crux of the matter, and perhaps would be the closest loophole by which he could be sued. But let us suppose that in Nationstates 2, he no longer openly endorses his books through the game, and Swastika flags are allowed.

So - Game over - Checkmate.

By selling books in France - just like Yahoo - He's liable.

It's a slightly different matter. He may admittedly have a vested interest in the region, but unlike the Yahoo case, this theoretical case is a little flimsier due to the fact that he is not directly marketing Nazism to the French people. The Yahoo Auctions were marketing Nazi symbols directly to the French people (if I recall correctly), and THAT is what made them the most liable.

I would still appreciate holding off judgement until we both actually read up on the Yahoo case to see how it holds up.

And thanks for acknowledging (thru saying the bit about sykarov) that Max would be liable by the countries.

I never said that he would not be liable if he went to those countries.

As a follow-up on the Yahoo case, Yahoo was cleared entirely, both in France and in the US.

In the former area, I am supposing that because then ended up banning the Nazi items, they avoided most claims later on (particularly having to restrict french access to their sites), BUT, a US District Court verdict states that they were NOT bound to cater non-French oriented sites for French people by removing Nazi memorabilia (nevertheless, they have kept the ban for ethical reasons, not legal ones).

I will not vouch for Australia, as the case does not affect it. Nevertheless, it's quite possible that the same logic would carry over (depending on Australia's free speech laws).

As for France, Max Berry would not be elegible due to the second part of the case, in which:

From The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,893642,00.html)
The court ruled yesterday that justifying war crimes meant "glorifying, praising, or at least presenting the crimes in question favourably", and that Yahoo! "manifestly did not fit that description".

And as such, Yahoo and more specifically, its CEO, were NOT liable for justifying war crimes through display of nazi memorabilia.

As for paying, I would gladly donate to pay court costs in the case that he actually got in trouble. I would not donate to pay to a fund established prior to any known threat.

A point is also that no matter how many regions or nations you look at, you will never get rid of all swastikas. It seems the rule is being enforced, but not scrictly, for obvious reasons.

So admittedly, there is little benefit for the Nazi states, but there is less loss (in that they can keep their flags), and the free-speech advocates who are not raving extremists (and claim that anyone should see anything) should benefit as there is still the ABILITY to voice free speech, even if the audience is made smaller.

Thirdly, Nazi states don't risk deletion for retaining a swastika (assuming they are not aware of what is going on in here, as I believe they are not, for the most part)Actually, all the nations with swastikas were sent TMs informing each of the ban. By blacklisting the Nations with swastikas, you essentially outlaw their presence in the UN. How can a nation represent itself to the world body without being able to display it's flag? And what about the forums? Anyone that posts in this forum has their flag available for view on their country. Are the blacklisted nations going to have to have their own forum? Or perhaps a warning page before their country loads? That's ridiculous. Simply banning a symbol of hate is quite a bit easier - and as you said, those opposed would feel the same either way...

Actually, all the nations with swastikas were sent TMs informing each of the ban. By blacklisting the Nations with swastikas, you essentially outlaw their presence in the UN. How can a nation represent itself to the world body without being able to display it's flag? And what about the forums? Anyone that posts in this forum has their flag available for view on their country. Are the blacklisted nations going to have to have their own forum? Or perhaps a warning page before their country loads? That's ridiculous. Simply banning a symbol of hate is quite a bit easier - and as you said, those opposed would feel the same either way...

It would merely not be visible to those who were not interested in viewing it. Secondly, the UN as it stands now has little need for contry flags. It is after all an entity that seems to favor univesal governmental restrictionas anyway, but even then, I don't regularly expect to see flags represented at the United Nations.

As for viewing blacklisted nations info, it would be no problem. You merely don't see the flag. So you see the information, but you don't see the flag if you have the option set. And that's all. Has nothing to do with whether or not you see their posts, see them in the UN, or whatever. You merely do not see their flag, and nothing more. And as far as I'm concerned, it's no worse than it is now where NOONE can see their flag, whether or not they would care to see a Nazi flag.

And how can a Nazi nation represent itself to the world if all its methods of being able to show their Nazism are banned anyway?

Another point is that we're concentrating too much on this. What about the flags with people having oral sex in them, and porn in them. Why not write a post about them with over 200 replies?

Because those are almost always universally considered unsuitable for children and have no redeeming political, religious or spiritual value.

The swastika has all of these (historically speaking)

Other argue and say that the Cross or the Star of David should be banned as well. These symbols represent peace and love, not the rabbid intolerance of Hitler and his Nazi spawn. I believe the swastika should be stampted out wherever it is seen, for basic human rights.

peace and love...oh, that's so funny. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, peace AND love--as seen here in these chapters from the Book of Numbers (chapter 31):

31:6
And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
31:7
And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8
And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11
And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
31:12
And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
31:13
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Hmmmm. Genocide and Rape? How quaint.

His Most Infernal Majesty
Satan

All of you guys kleep saying, "If your gonna ban the nazi swastika, ban the confederate flag, the communist flag, the christian flag, buddhit, hindu, "whatever, but you all seem to be forgetting one little thing. There was one country, more than any other, that Hitler said inspired him to do what he did. And i propose we ban this country's flag. The country was The United States Of America, and Hitler never would have thought an extermination of a race of people were possible if it had not been that The United States could exterminate millions and millions of Indians. Now, I dont want to make America look evil here, so while we're banning that flag, we also must ban the Spanish flag, the British flag, the French flag, really almost all of the flags from Europe in that time period.

Not that any of this matters, it won't make this [violet] fellow look at my post anymore than he obviously did any of yours. And I'm sure all of you will choose to debate this. Go ahead. Sorry if I dont pay attention.

I think there are a lot of good reasons to argue against the banning of the Nazi flag. I don;t believe any of those can be found in this post, just my $.02.

Problem is none of those flags are illegal in a country.

the public display of a swastika is!
---------------------------------------------
Four out of five Doctors Agree - Humor Troll is the best!
-----------------------------------------

Question: Why couldn't Kira get permanent quarters on DS9?
Answer: Because everybody knew she was a Visitor.

Question: What did the senior staff of DS9 sing when Kira was packing to leave
at the beginning of "The Circle"?
Answer: Nana, Nana . . . Nana, Nana . . . Hey, hey, hey, goodbye!

Question: What do you do if O'Brien refuses to fix your ship after you dock at DS9?
Answer: Colm Meaney. (For those of you who don't know "Colm" isn't pronounced "Kohlm." It's pronounced more like "column.")

Question: What is Sisko's favorite breakfast?
Answer: Quarker Oates.


Yes, it is illegal to own a Nazi flag in Germany and in France. That said, it is not illegal to look at a picture of a Nazi flag on the internet in either country.

The verdict has been agreed, I think it's time to lock this up.

I'd like to see more discussion of my compromise proposal...

As a follow-up on the Yahoo case, Yahoo was cleared entirely, both in France and in the US.

In the former area, I am supposing that because then ended up banning the Nazi items, they avoided most claims later on (particularly having to restrict french access to their sites), BUT, a US District Court verdict states that they were NOT bound to cater non-French oriented sites for French people by removing Nazi memorabilia (nevertheless, they have kept the ban for ethical reasons, not legal ones).

I will not vouch for Australia, as the case does not affect it. Nevertheless, it's quite possible that the same logic would carry over (depending on Australia's free speech laws).


This is absolutly true as it pertains to viewing a Nazi flag online, this would be different if Max were selling Swastikas. He is not, thus there is no legal muddiness, as implied by some.

The verdict has been agreed, I think it's time to lock this up.

Actually violet opened this after it was locked to further discussion. If you don;t want to post or read on this thread, don't.

I'll reply after I get a good nights sleep.

Apparently - there's still some folks that don't understand that Max is liable for content on his forum and game.

When you have a worldwide game - you end up being controlled by worldwide laws.

Anyone who feels different - post your entire music collection online for free downloads.

I'll reply after I get a good nights sleep.

Apparently - there's still some folks that don't understand that Max is liable for content on his forum and game.

When you have a worldwide game - you end up being controlled by worldwide laws.

Anyone who feels different - post your entire music collection online for free downloads.

And be sure to use Napster to do it...

I'll reply after I get a good nights sleep.

Apparently - there's still some folks that don't understand that Max is liable for content on his forum and game.

When you have a worldwide game - you end up being controlled by worldwide laws.

Anyone who feels different - post your entire music collection online for free downloads.

I don;t feel differnet. In another thread you have said that you refuse to provide any proof of this, though some of us are curious for examples of such legal actions (viewing flag on the net being cause fo legal action).