NationStates Jolt Archive


No Representation without Taxation?

St Edmundan Antarctic
24-11-2006, 20:20
Here’s an idea that I’ve been thinking about for a few months, and have just got around to typing out…

[name]No Representation without Taxation?

[description]The recent publication of a book called “Who Pays For Government?”, written by an internationally-famous economist by the name of Miles Freeman, has triggered a public debate about voting rights.

[validity]Elections are held, private enterprise is legal, and income tax exists but is below 100%, (possibly) "not classified as an ‘Anarchy’".

[option]“Look, it’s simple,” says your financial advisor @@RANDOMNAME@@. “What the government does costs money, and that money has to be raised through taxes, so people who don’t pay any taxes shouldn’t have any say in choosing the government either. We should set a threshold level of taxes that people have to pay in order to qualify for the vote, and then if anybody who’s been contributing less than that to the Treasury wants to get onto the electoral lists they’ll have to work hard enough that the taxes on their earnings will be over that level… which will mean the rest of us have to pay less tax, overall, too.”
[effect]poor people are turned away from the polling booths
[stats]moderate decrease in Political Freedom; mild decreases in Income Tax, spending on Welfare, and Unemployment; and the ‘Politically Apathetic’ rating would presumably be affected slightly too although I could see arguments for it going in either direction (Maybe it gets more extreme, increasing if it’s already above the mid-point but decreasing if it’s already below that level? Is that possible within the coding?)

[option]“No, no, a thousand times no!” notorious labour-rights activist ‘Red’ @@RANDOMNAME@@ protests: “If some people aren’t earning much then that isn’t their fault, it’s because of how the capitalist economic system works, and they shouldn’t be punished for it like this: The government should provide a job for anybody who can't find suitable work otherwise, and pay them a decent wage for doing it, instead. Admittedly that might cost a bit, but it’s the fairest way of dealing with the situation and you could easily find the extra cash by taxing the rich — who only got their wealth by exploiting the workers, anyway — at a higher rate.”
[effect]public works programmes are expanding
[stats]moderate (or significant?) decrease in Economic Freedom, not just because of this decision in itself but because it would almost certainly be symptomatic of a swing to the Left that involved other restrictions too; mild (or significant?) decrease in Unemployment; moderate (or even stronger?) increases in Income Tax (which should now be “and much higher for the rich”, if that wasn’t already the case) and in spending on Welfare.

[option]“Freeman has the right idea,” says @@RANDOMNAME@@, a spokesman for the Millionaires’ Club, “but he doesn’t go anywhere near far enough. The value of every person’s vote should be based on much they contribute to the country’s Treasury, so those of us who pay a lot more each than the average pleb does should be allowed a lot more say in choosing the government too in order to balance that fact.”
[effect]legislation is increasingly biased to favour the rich
[stats]mild (or significant?) decrease in Political Freedom; equivalent increase in Economic Freedom; mild increase in Government Corruption, mild (or significant?) increase in Rich/Poor Inequality; and the ‘Politically Apathetic’ rating should probably also change (but in which direction?) too.

[option]“Why keep having elections any more, couldn’t you do an even better job of running the country if you didn’t have to worry about the risk of losing office? ” your cousin @@RANDOMNAME@@ wonders. “And, for that matter, why should anybody outside of our own family and friends have more money than us? You should declare yourself as ‘President for Life’ and abolish the legislature, then raise taxes a lot and seize the assets of anybody who complains. I suppose you’d have to spend more on the police in order to keep the rest of the country under control, but just think of what you — and those of us in your inner circle, too, of course — could do with all that extra power and money!”
[effect]democracy and free enterprise are being suppressed at gunpoint
[stats]strong decrease in Political Freedom; significant decrease in Economic Freedom; significant increases in Income Tax and Government Corruption; strong increase in spending on Law & Order; significant or strong decrease in Happiness. ‘Politically Apathetic’ rating also changes by quite a bit, one way or the other?

What do you think of it? Not the morality (or otherwise) of the differing options, I mean, but its overall concept and composition?
Ceorana
24-11-2006, 22:17
The description needs to be a bit more descriptive of the specific circumstances of voting rights.

Your title rocks. :D
A_B
25-11-2006, 02:35
Option 3 Shouldn't effect political freedom, some would get less power, but others would get more, balancing things out. Also, your validity should exclude nations with a flat income tax. I also don't see how option 3 effects economic freedom.
St Edmundan Antarctic
25-11-2006, 17:39
Option 3 Shouldn't effect political freedom, some would get less power, but others would get more, balancing things out. Also, your validity should exclude nations with a flat income tax. I also don't see how option 3 effects economic freedom.


I seem to recall having seen one or two other situations in the past where it was the fairness of political systems, and not just the total amount of freedom involved, that affected the 'Political Freedom' rating: After all, one could say that the Leader in an absolute dictatorship having total freedom balances the fact that nobody else there has any freedom at all...
Some people are paying more income tax than others, even with a flat rate, unless everybody has the same income: Consider that 'N'% of 1'000'000 whatevers is a hundred times 'N'% of 10'000 whatevers...
Option #3 affects 'Economic Freedom' because the wealthy would use their extra votes to support new laws that favoured getting & staying rich, and also because it can be taken as symptomatic of a swing towards the Right that would probably lead to more pro-business legislation anyway just as Option #2 symbolises a swing to the Left that involves reduced Economic Freedom for other reasons as well as for the one actually stated...
St Edmundan Antarctic
25-11-2006, 17:40
The description needs to be a bit more descriptive of the specific circumstances of voting rights.

Perhaps if I added "for people who don't pay taxes"? H'mm, but then options #3 & 4 cover other groups too... I'll have to think about it...

Your title rocks. :D

Thank you. :D
A_B
26-11-2006, 02:56
Hmm, what can I say? You have good points. When you put it that way though, option 3 should come with a decrease in civil rights equal to the increase of economic rights.
OmniTech Company
26-11-2006, 12:49
Option #3 could be changed to direct vote-buying. Indstead of "legislation increasingly favours the rich" there could be "Government is nothing more than covert PLC". Option #2 is already favouring directly the rich, and we haven't got any issue enablig a creation of "true" corporate state yet.
Bears Armed
02-12-2006, 15:10
Hmm, what can I say? You have good points. When you put it that way though, option 3 should come with a decrease in civil rights equal to the increase of economic rights.

Option #3, I'm not so sure, but a 'Civil Freedoms' decrease for option #4 perhaps?

Option #3 could be changed to direct vote-buying. Indstead of "legislation increasingly favours the rich" there could be "Government is nothing more than covert PLC". Option #2 is already favouring directly the rich, and we haven't got any issue enabling a creation of "true" corporate state yet.

"Ahem." Option #2 involves higher taxes on the rich, how is that supposed to be "favouring" them?

And as for direct vote-buying & corporations, haven't you had issue #17 yet?

#17: Corporations Demand Political Say

The Issue
A well-heeled lobby group is pushing for the elimination of regulations that prevent corporations from donating money to political parties.

The Debate
1. "This is supposed to be a democratic country," @@MAJORINDUSTRY@@ industry spokesperson @@RANDOMNAME@@ says. "Yet these archaic laws say I can't donate money to support a political party. They put ceilings on the amount any party can spend on advertising. It's time to stop treating voters like children, and trust them to make up their own minds. Free the ballot box!"

2. "You say political freedom, I hear vote-buying," says popular anarchist @@RANDOMNAME@@. "If these fat cats get their way, politicians will buy their own seat in Congress. And let's face it, a slick advertising campaign can convince a lot of apathetic voters. We need to tighten the laws, not repeal them. Money should have no place in politics!"

3. "Frankly, I don't see why we need to have elections at all," says your brother, @@RANDOMNAME@@, over a late-night malt whiskey. "You always seem to know what's best. Why not scrap the whole political system? It would make things so much simpler."

OOPS! Posted using the wrong nation: This is actually the same player as for 'St Edmundan Antarctic'...
Omigodtheykilledkenny
02-12-2006, 17:42
Forgive my ignorance, but has Milton Freedman recently put out a controversial book on the subject that this is in response to? What is this book by "Miles Freeman" recommending? That only taxpayers should be able to vote? Other than that, your validity is way too narrow (if the issue is only going to affect maybe 20% of nations, maybe it would do to expand the issue so other players can reasonably get it?), and your effect descriptions need some livening up. They're pretty dull.
A_B
02-12-2006, 23:59
Forgive my ignorance, but has Milton Freedman recently put out a controversial book on the subject that this is in response to? What is this book by "Miles Freeman" recommending? That only taxpayers should be able to vote? Other than that, your validity is way too narrow (if the issue is only going to affect maybe 20% of nations, maybe it would do to expand the issue so other players can reasonably get it?), and your effect descriptions need some livening up. They're pretty dull.

Actually, there's already issues that much less than 20% of nations qualify for, like the anarchy issue(I believe maybe 15% are anarchy, I think), or the issue that requires you to eat the national animal.

Option #3, I'm not so sure, but a 'Civil Freedoms' decrease for option #4 perhaps?

Well, this game is about exaggerations and stereotypes, so think about the stereotypical corruption by corporations that may occur.
St Edmundan Antarctic
22-12-2006, 16:49
(Second attempt at answering here: Jolt just logged me out while I was typing-up my remarks for the first time, so that when I tried to post that version -- and forgot to save it in Word beforehand -- it was lost... :( )

Forgive my ignorance, but has Milton Freedman recently put out a controversial book on the subject that this is in response to?

No, I just wanted to use a name that would resonate with people as appropriate for a [NS] right-wing economist. (IC: "Who is this 'Milton Friedman' to whom you refer?")

What is this book by "Miles Freeman" recommending? That only taxpayers should be able to vote?

It points out how low the proportions of the people eligible to vote that are also net contributors to their governments' budgets are for various nations. (I quite recently saw a figure of about 10% given, in an article in a serious newspaper, for the RL UK nowadays...) Whether it actually suggests this limitation on voting or that's just an argument that some people are using its statistics to support is a point that I originally meant to leave for readers to decide for themselves, but I suppose the current draft for option #3 makes it pretty clear that it does so... Thanks for pointing that out, and I'll think about clarifying it one way or the other...

Other than that, your validity is way too narrow (if the issue is only going to affect maybe 20% of nations, maybe it would do to expand the issue so other players can reasonably get it?),

Leaving aside the fact that there are almost certainly some of the existing issues (even excluding the 'easter egg' ones) that affect even fewer nations, let's consider each of the factors that I listed...

"Not classified as an ‘Anarchy’" = on the basis that a true anarchy wouldn't have a government to be elected, to spend money or to make such rules... although I suppose not all NS 'Anarchies' really are true anarchies.
H'mm. Okay, I might drop this one (or maybe leave it in, but with a question-mark for the editor to consider).
"elections are held" = because otherwise this would be irrelevant. A question could be raised about introducing voting rights for taxpayers in nations that currently lack elections, of course, but then the options would have to be different enough from the ones I've used here that I really think that would have to be a separate issue.
"private enterprise is legal" = because if everybody works for the State then you arguably don't have taxpayers & non-taxpayers just people who receive different levels of resources from the State. (This also applies if income tax is at 100%, of course...) I think that this limit definitely has to stay, too.
"income tax exists" = because that seemed the easiest way of measuring people's [approximate] relative levels of contribution... but, with hindsight, I suppose various other forms of taxation could be measured effectively enough too, so this is another detail that I might drop altogether or leave with a question-mark for the editor...
"is below 100%" = because if it's at 100% then the economic system must be so different that we wouldn't really be talking about "taxation" [in that context] anyway...

and your effect descriptions need some livening up. They're pretty dull.

Fair comment, although I can think of some equally prosaic ones that exist for various current issues. I'll think about this some more before my next post...

________________________________________________________________

Option #3, I'm not so sure, but a 'Civil Freedoms' decrease for option #4 perhaps?
Well, this game is about exaggerations and stereotypes, so think about the stereotypical corruption by corporations that may occur.

I see what you're getting at, and I suppose that there [i]might be some loss of rights due to more repressive policing, but on the other hand mightn't the corporations try to keep public support by a 'bread and circuses' policy that involved loosening the rules in some other respects?
Ice Hockey Players
22-12-2006, 20:58
Damnit, now i can't post my idea about privatizing government without it looking like plagiarism...

It's a neat idea and all, what St. Ed wrote, but options 1 and 3 seem a little similar, just with one being to a greater degree than the other.
St Edmundan Antarctic
23-12-2006, 18:46
It's a neat idea and all, what St. Ed wrote, but options 1 and 3 seem a little similar, just with one being to a greater degree than the other.

#1 limits the franchise whereas #3 is about buying votes, but I agree that differentiating a bit more between their results might be a good idea.
*(adds to 'to-do' list)*
St Edmundan Antarctic
14-07-2007, 17:47
(Re-starting work on this project...)