NationStates Jolt Archive

Nazi Sympathizers Plan Rally

Government Acts
The Issue
Far-right-wing Nazi supporters plan to stage a rally in the city center tomorrow, giving voice to their violent, racist views.


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Firstly, Nazis are racist, but they're known even moreso as antisemites. They are responsible for the holocaust-- one of the most massive genocides in history. I understand what the issue is trying to accomplish, but nazis shouldn't be mentioned. It's like saying, "Well, Al Qaida is talking about murdering 3000+ Americans on 9.11...should we allow 'free speech'?"

The line has to be drawn somewhere. The wording of the issue should be changed somehow... Nazis aren't right-wing racists....they're known as murderers and by today's definition-- terrorists. It's ok for a player's nation to support free speech, but not Nazis... it's a retarded issue the way it is.

I disagree. I think whether or not to allow extreme political parties free speech is an important issue, one which certainly has a place in such a game. No-one is asking if you agree or sympathise with neo-Nazism, much less the events which happened sixty years ago.

This was actually a rather famous Supreme Court case, in which Neo-Nazis were granted the right to rally, citing their right to free speech.

I see no problem with the issue as it is. If you support free speech, then you must be prepared to accept all forms of it - whether you agree with it or not, whether you find it offensive or not, or whether you want to hear it or not. Otherwise you truly don't support it.

As for this -
Nazis aren't right-wing racists

Yes, they are.

And comparing them to terrorists of today is incorrect. Mass murderers, yes, they were. Terrorists, no. Saying that they're terrorists because they murdered Jews is just plain silly.

I think the issue is OK. If we begin erasing options and rewritting history, I honestly feel that we are dooming ourselves to repeat the same mistakes. Worse, we are becoming the thing we dispise the most.

It is an issue because it IS controversial.

Are we going to censor history now? A wiser man than I once said, "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

There are Nazi players on NationStates. They can discuss their views, and you can refute their views, just so long as neither of you ventures into the realm of flaming, personal insults and wishes/encouragement of violence against groups.

Nazi Sympathizers Plan Rally
Firstly, Nazis are racist, but they're known even moreso as antisemites. They are responsible for the holocaust-- one of the most massive genocides in history. I understand what the issue is trying to accomplish, but nazis shouldn't be mentioned. It's like saying, "Well, Al Qaida is talking about murdering 3000+ Americans on 9.11...should we allow 'free speech'?"

The line has to be drawn somewhere. The wording of the issue should be changed somehow... Nazis aren't right-wing racists....they're known as murderers and by today's definition-- terrorists. It's ok for a player's nation to support free speech, but not Nazis... it's a retarded issue the way it is. Your skin is about as thick as air, idiot.

Your skin is about as thick as air, idiot.

Wino Alley, this is only your second post. Stop flaming.

It always comes down to intollerance.

The extremists believe that the white race is the "better" race, even in the eyes of God. There we go, wanna get REALLY controversial? Mix polotics and religion.

Yes, that's right, a large, LARGE majority of neo-nazis believe that God actually *wants* whites to be segregated from blacks, not to speak with them, not to deal with them, and CERTAINLY not to mate with them, or any other non-white race for that matter. The scary thing is how they preach it:

"God's Way - Kind after Kind - different cultures - A Beautiful Rainbow - And the Lord Said His Creation was GOOD!"

"Satan's Way - He Hates God's Creation - He Hates Diversity - He only Wants One Race - One Culture. Race Mixing is Satanic - It is WRONG! Don't Destroy the Rainbow!"

"Love the Diversity of God's Creation. Practice Racial Integrity. Don't Race Mix.
Imagine the world with only one race - only one culture - Is that really what you want?

...Because that WILL be the End result

Think about it!"

All of these quotes come STRAIGHT from the KKK Website, an organization known to run side-by-side with racial bigotry.

Personally, I have to wonder where these guys learned this, because it's nowhere in the bible. In fact, there's nothing in there that could be interpreted as such.

However, on the point of free speech, I do believe they should be allowed to speak. As was said earlier: If you want free speech, you must be willing to allow those words which offend you to be heard as well. You can't hold anyone to a double standard. It just shames me as a human being that people like this exist.

I think that everyone is entitled to their own views, and to run their countries in this game how they see fit. If you believe in free speech, then you have to let people express their views, whether or not you agree with them. However, I don't think it is necessary to support free speech if you don't want to.

Point of clarity, the Nazi's are actually more left-wing racists, because they got rid of their government in place of a new one. That on the political spectrum is called being a "radical." Radical is on the far left. (I hope their is no dispute about whether or not Nazis are racist.)

Freedom of speech is only a good thing when people can learn to listen to other people's ideas and not end up committing an act of violence. If what people say can make you become violent, then maybe you should reconsider your view on free speech, because violence is not a solution, it simply spawns more violence.

Now, I know that at least someone is reading this and thinking "shut up you damn hippie." Well, if you think that the view of violence not being a solution to problems means that you are a hippie, then I guess I am, but violence never provides a perminent solution. Look at the coups in Central and South America, and Africa.

The wording of the issue should be changed somehow... Nazis aren't right-wing racists

No, it shouldn't. The entire point of issues is to ascertain what extreme of the spectrum you want imposed in your country. The issue choices and itself is an extreme of how society actually views a problem and the issue choice you choose as "leader" is the most extreme position, one way or another, you can take within your borders.

It's ok for a player's nation to support free speech, but not Nazis...

Allowing one group preference to have free speech and another one not to eliminates the entire idea of the concept.

The issue is a good one, IMHO, period.

sorry, just had to laugh at the comment about nazi's being left wing

Point of clarity, the Nazi's are actually more left-wing racists, because they got rid of their government in place of a new one. That on the political spectrum is called being a "radical." Radical is on the far left. (I hope their is no dispute about whether or not Nazis are racist.)

They're far right wing because the Nazi regime was about as Fascist as you can get. Also, don't forget they had a Totalitarian government - much more than just a dictator.

Just because they overthrew a government doesn't mean that they're Radical left wingers. Fascist right wingers can overthrow governments too!

It's ok for a player's nation to support free speech, but not Nazis... it's a retarded issue the way it is.

So, your arguement for rewording it is that it has down syndrome?

it's max's site and if i'm not mistaking (i could be its been a while since i had that issue) i think it was max that wrote it

and yes there are white nationalists, nazi's, ect...
but there are also black nationalists too

I guess being anti-semetic and wanting a dictatorial governemnt are right-wing ideas.

Hm, coulda sworn the FAQ said somesuch about right-wing and left-wing being too one dimensional.

:D My government allowed the rally in the name of free speech for all. You can't have some minorities being more equal than others.

Down With Comrade Snowball!

omg u guys, i h8 nazis as much as the next guy but cmon, its free speech, think of it in reverese then( as farfetched as it sounds) nazis ruled and u didnt like their ways so u threw rallies and crap,u would want free speeech if it was available, im american, iv noticed hjow sometimes ppl underestimate greatness of free speech, ppl can say wots on their mind without changing any government decisions

Nazis aren't right-wing racists....they're known as murderers and by today's definition-- terrorists.

It's talking about modern neo-nazis / neo-fascists, not magically resurrected WW2 Germans.

I really like this issue. I'm all for free speech but I have two countries, one that I'm running like I really would if I was in charge, and one that I'm doing just for fun and picking crazy dictator stuff.

It was odd that in the country that I'm running like I really would I could not bring myself to let the Nazis march. I had to say no. And I'm all for free speech. But when I had a chance to censor Nazis, I had to take it.

The Nazis were very right wing if you follow the right wing/left wing scale. I once saw some tv preacher talking about how Nazis were left wing because they were called national socialists. All these old people were nodding like it was a good point. Some people don't think too good.

And if you notice, the issue says that the people marching are right wing Nazi sympathizers. So even if you don't think the Nazis were right wingers, just imagine that these people are.

Like the guy above me said, these are modern neo-nazis who are very right wing, not mythical germans from the 1930s.

In any case I really like this issue. It was the first one I got that made me think. Most issues are pretty easy to decide.

No, it shouldn't. The entire point of issues is to ascertain what extreme of the spectrum you want imposed in your country. The issue choices and itself is an extreme of how society actually views a problem and the issue choice you choose as "leader" is the most extreme position, one way or another, you can take within your borders.



Allowing one group preference to have free speech and another one not to eliminates the entire idea of the concept.

The issue is a good one, IMHO, period.
Agreed. I allowed it in my country, though the idea of it actually occurring is abhorrent to me in the extreme.

Okay, I haven't gotten that issue in about a week, so forgive me if I'm not remembering it completely, but isn't there a third option in there that's a compromise between free speech and oppression?

"I hate Illinois Nazis." - "Joliet" Jake Blues

Okay, I haven't gotten that issue in about a week, so forgive me if I'm not remembering it completely, but isn't there a third option in there that's a compromise between free speech and oppression?

"I hate Illinois Nazis." - "Joliet" Jake Blues

No.

As a commited communist who upholds the right to free speach for ALL people i have to say YES they should be allowed to rally BUT when they cross the line from rallying to stiring racial hatred then they should be stoped eg

when they talk about the political views then you canot stop them BUT when the go from that to saying all jews must be killed then the rally should be stopped




a small side issue. the holocuast was a teribble thing but arnt the jews in isreal now doing the same to palestinians? also which country is second highest in ranking wehn it comes to exterminating civilians? ( the USA in vietnam so you know 6 million)

basicaly if someone does not like the issue then simple dont listen.
the USA people always bang on about there right to free speach but isnt communisme still illigal there hence lack of free speach?

ever body takes offence at something i for instance take offence when people judge me by my my looks, im generaly scruffy have long hair and and powerfully built thus i am uncultered and stupid. when i go to the ballet i get looked down on by the smartly dressed rich folkes as soeone who should not be there or if i am as security (wheni wear a suit i look more like a bouncer or a mafia hard man). the fact that i have to save to see, what i consider a buetiful art form, is neither here nor there. (as i get normaly the best seat in the house from my view as i dont want to sit in a cramped box perced on a chair to see the stage, i get to lounge in a seat and look up)

so going back to the issue, i as a person dislke all forms of bigotry be it nazi, conservative, religious, racial or even social (stoners anyone) but i will never try to demand that they are silenced.

and going back to hitlers germany. (ohh youll hate me for this)

but the nazis hhtere were normaly everyday people who had a choice do what your told or die. yes a few were extremists who reveled in the killing but most were doing there job which was seen by many as just state procedure ( im not judging im stating facts here) such the british in south africa agaisnt the boers, (yes the brits INVENTED the concentration camp) who has to do similar things agaist people. and also like the US government in camp Xray (now comon tell me honestly that those pople have been failry treated) not to mention the soviet gulags, the NVA prisons, the chinese laour camps, need i go on? in most of these countrys barbaric acts are ignored as procedute including those in the USA but when a country was defeated it becomes a nation of killers? i know a nazi as a person. he follows there principles becuase that is what HE agrees with, why i dont knwo he just does.

Oops, I was thinking of Too Much Yakking, Already, Say Delegation.

Still, if you don't like free speech, outlaw it. No one's forcing you to respect your constituents.

Still, I must ask, are you from Germany or just Berkeley?

i think this thread has left the realm of this portion of the forum, therefor i ask for a move to general or maybe a lock here

Eh, just one person babbling. Ignore that post and the thread is still on topic. Although I think everyone has said everything there is to say really.

the USA people always bang on about there right to free speach but isnt communisme still illigal there hence lack of free speach?


http://www.cpusa.org/

i think this thread has left the realm of this portion of the forum, therefor i ask for a move to general or maybe a lock here

You'd never move a topic like this to General, because it's still dealing with NS issues. A lock would suffice, but, I say it's still beneficial.

I AM VERY ANGERED BY THIS COUNTRY: Neo Alansyism. THIS NAZI COUNTRY HAS BEEN POSTING NAZI ANTISEMETIC POSTS AND ONE IS CALLED Zionism is Nazism I THINK. DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT!!!!

...and also like the US government in camp Xray (now comon tell me honestly that those pople have been failry treated) not to mention the soviet gulags, the NVA prisons, the chinese laour camps, need i go on? in most of these countrys barbaric acts are ignored as procedute including those in the USA...

Please tell me you were not intending to compare camp X-ray with Nazi death camps. The Nazis sent millions of Jews and other "undesireables" to concentration camps for the express purposes of killing them. They were not just "unfairly treated". A more apt, though still misleading comparison in US history would be the rounding up and extermination of the various Native American tribes. But brutal and detestable as that episode was, it was still not nearly as systematic, organized, or total as was Hitler's program of racial "purification"

That being said, I agree with the prevaling opinion that you have to let them march anyway, as the U.S. Supreme court did in the real case this issue is based on. That's what makes the U.S. different from most of those brutal regimes you mentioned. Unlike in those countries, the U.S. has prominent groups and individuals who will fight for the rights of the oppressed, and courts that will generally uphold those rights. It's not perfect, but at least we're trying.

And no, the communist party is not illegal here.

(sorry for going a bit off topic here guys, but as a US citizen who welcomes constructive criticism of the government from abroad, I think it important to reply to entirely unconstructive and improper comparisons between us and Nazi Germany)

I AM VERY ANGERED BY THIS COUNTRY: name deated. THIS NAZI COUNTRY HAS BEEN POSTING NAZI ANTISEMETIC POSTS AND ONE IS CALLED Zionism is Nazism I THINK. DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT!!!!
i have changed this part of the quote as you should in your post

wrong forum in fact you should send a use the geting help page through the faq link, found in the left frame of your ns window, it will be under etiquit

i have changed this part of the quote as you should in your post

There's no reason to block out the name.

I think the issue is OK. If we begin erasing options and rewritting history, I honestly feel that we are dooming ourselves to repeat the same mistakes. Worse, we are becoming the thing we dispise the most.

Very true. I was wondering if you got that from reading 1984 by Orwell or on your own. Either way I applaud you for bringing up a good point.
For those of you with no idea as to what I'm talking about here's a VERY famous quote: "Big brother is watching"

Rewriting history and forgeting about the past doesn't help anything. Sure, bad things happen, but pretending they never existed because you may have strong feelings about them only sets you up for repeats in history or becoming (note the quotation marks) "censorship nazi's".

Almost everybody is offended by a group of people the way this guy is offended by Nazis. Fundamentalist street preaching Christians are some of the most offensive people I've ever seen, but should they be kicked off the streets...entirely up to you. It's your issue. If Nazis bother you that bad, then answer the issue accordingly...or just dismiss it altogether!!! Free speech was created for radicals, and it exists now and that can't be changed...at least not by ignoring it. So choose a stance and stop complaining, k? :)

Nazis aren't right-wing racists....they're known as murderers and by today's definition-- terrorists.

The word "terrorist" existed in the 1940s. In fact, Goebbels referred to the air raids on German cities as Terrorangriffe. He was using the word incorrectly, and it's used incorrectly in the sentence above; both are talking about "legitimate" uses of violence, by governments, rather than the "illegitimate" use of violence by an individual or an organization. I've put the words in quotation marks because I don't mean to use it in the moral sense. I mean that there is a legal system of some kind or other behind all "legitimate" violence, which does not exist behind terrorism.

The Nazis of WWII Germany were mass murderers, indeed, but they were motivated to do so by racism -- part of which was Anti-Semetic, yes, to be more specific -- and a far-right ideology. To leave that out is to make the Holocaust look like simple bloodlust.

Point of clarity, the Nazi's are actually more left-wing racists, because they got rid of their government in place of a new one. That on the political spectrum is called being a "radical." Radical is on the far left.

Don't confuse conservatism with the right wing. They happen to coincide in current American politics, but they're two very different concepts. The left wing wishes for classless societies, while the right wing favors a more hierarchical system. It has nothing to do with what the established class system happens to look like.

So you could accurately call Nazis "progressive," since they weren't trying to uphold the Weimar Republic, but they most certainly belonged to the right wing. Their use of the word "Socialist" was deliberately misleading.

And there's the real trouble. So many words in politics are used for emotional effect rather than literal meaning.

In fact, Goebbels referred to the air raids on German cities as Terrorangriffe.
The air-raids were terror tactics, were they not? Whereas the "Final Solutuion" was just a rather horrid way of getting rid of a lot of people quickly and efficiently.

...The left wing wishes for classless societies, while the right wing favors a more hierarchical system.../

Except in America the reverse is true. Or more correctly, the right wing wishes for less government intervention, and the left... more government. Though their actions do not always show this. It's the base principle of their beliefs.

This surely highlights why the Europeans are having difficulty with the US and Vice Versa. Even though we are writing in English, we are speaking two very different languages.

From American prospective, Nazi's are part of the "complete government control" group which fall into the fascists, socialists, and communists category. Referred to the as the liberal left wing in America. You will find in American language that Anarchists are right wing. Time takes it's toll on language as people change. You only need look at how "gay" no longer means happy anymore to see the most obvious changes. I think the most interesting development is how words are becoming shorter, dumbed down, and sentences less flowery. Three cheers for the TV!

Best bet is to stick to the topic and not stray too far or you will get sucked into the bottomless abyss of PC-talk.

Except in America the reverse is true. Or more correctly, the right wing wishes for less government intervention, and the left... more government.

No... The Right Wing wishes for less government spending on social programs, while the left wing wishes more. It's not that the Left wing wants more government, they just want them to spend it on the people rather than on the country.


From American prospective, Nazi's are part of the "complete government control" group which fall into the fascists, socialists, and communists category. Referred to the as the liberal left wing in America. You will find in American language that Anarchists are right wing. Time takes it's toll on language as people change. You only need look at how "gay" no longer means happy anymore to see the most obvious changes. I think the most interesting development is how words are becoming shorter, dumbed down, and sentences less flowery. Three cheers for the TV!

This does not make any sense to me. The Nazis were not left wing. They certainly were not liberal. Unless I have my facts wrong, they were authoritarian, NOT liberal... in fact exactly opposite.

All this political classification stuff is utter crap, especially when you have NewSpeak added into the equation. NeoConservative, what the fuck does THAT even mean...

http://bak42.notworksafe.com/images/NationStates/UNCards/zombies.jpe