NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a question. My Civil Rights rating suddenly decreased from "Frightening" to "World Benchmark", I think because of this issue:

#75: Cutting Off Sex Offenders? [Issue by Istar]

The Issue
After the capture and trial of notorious rapist Henry Taiden, who was convicted of the rape of over 50 women in the past two years a debate has emerged on how he should be punished.

The Debate
1. "That psychopath should be castrated!" cries rape victim @@RANDOMNAME@@, "The agony he put me through must be punished with a means that will ensure that no human being will ever go through what I did! If castration is used more often in these cases you will see rape drop to nothing!"

2. "I understand that this is a terrible time for the poor victims in this case," says defense attorney @@RANDOMNAME@@, "However, the answer is not to revert back to the dark ages. Instead, we should focus on rehabilitation of all criminals in our prison system."

3. "Everyone knows re-education is a waste of money, we shouldn't go soft on these crooks!" says CEO @@RANDOMNAME@@ of the People Trading Corporation. "Simply place all rapists and criminals in @@NAME@@ into forced labor under the management of our company to serve out their sentences. When we're through with them, they won't even think of jaywalking, much less harming another person. We get cheap labor, and these crooks get put straight. Everybody benefits... well, except the crooks."

I answered #3, but even if work sentencing reduces civil rights, which is itself a dubious claim since incarceration should technically decrease civil rights too using that logic, I think two categories is a bit extreme, especially since I was in the top 80 countries for civil rights last time it was ranked. Why would it have this big of an effect?

Forced labour seems like a huge drain on civil rights to me. :wink:

Well, yeah. Also, consider the following:

Let's pretend that:
World Benchmark = 20-50
Frightening = 0 - 19

Furthermore, let's pretend that your Civil Rights ranking was at 19, which puts you at Frightening. If this issue drops Civil Rights by 1 point, you would drop to 20, which is World Benchmark. Had you been at 18, you'd still be Frightening.

Not a large drop by any stretch of the imagination, but just enough to push you over. Much like $1 can bump you into another tax bracket.


Or it could have been a different issue...

This Issue is deeply flawed too. My nation does not have a prison system and relies totally on rehabilitation not punishment, so none of the choices i was given were any good.

There needs to be a fourth option, something like "Expand your Rehabilitation Program" or similar.

We need a fourth choice featuring the word "guillotine".

<Seriously, I've started dismissing all criminal justice issues, because punishing criminals seems to lower civil rights (is there a civil right to commit murder?), without reducing crime.>

Harsher punishments are naturally a reduction in Civil Rights. If you have a brutal criminal justice system then Civil Rights will be lower, since people are allowed to do fewer things and get punished worse if they do commit a crime.

If you made rape legal, although abhorrent, your Civil Rights would be increased because people have more freedom to do what they want without restriction.

Making punishments harsher has nothing to do with making more things illegal.

Harsher punishments are naturally a reduction in Civil Rights. If you have a brutal criminal justice system then Civil Rights will be lower, since people are allowed to do fewer things and get punished worse if they do commit a crime.

If you made rape legal, although abhorrent, your Civil Rights would be increased because people have more freedom to do what they want without restriction.

No they wouldnt, in doing so they would be infringing on someone elses rights so the civil rights rating should drop if you legalise rape.

As for punishment, obviously if you punish someone harshly your civil rights drop because you are infringing on their rights. You may believe their rights no longer matter if they have committed a crime but they still exist.

Well, yeah. Also, consider the following:

Let's pretend that:
World Benchmark = 20-50
Frightening = 0 - 19

Furthermore, let's pretend that your Civil Rights ranking was at 19, which puts you at Frightening. If this issue drops Civil Rights by 1 point, you would drop to 20, which is World Benchmark. Had you been at 18, you'd still be Frightening.

Not a large drop by any stretch of the imagination, but just enough to push you over. Much like $1 can bump you into another tax bracket.


Or it could have been a different issue...

Only there's an entire other category called "Excessive" in between the two, and I was ranked in the top 80 earlier. And Wolomy/Sirocco, I don't see WHY forced labor is necessarily a harsher punishment than jail. Especially since labor increases the rate of rehabilitation.

Well, yeah. Also, consider the following:

Let's pretend that:
World Benchmark = 20-50
Frightening = 0 - 19

Furthermore, let's pretend that your Civil Rights ranking was at 19, which puts you at Frightening. If this issue drops Civil Rights by 1 point, you would drop to 20, which is World Benchmark. Had you been at 18, you'd still be Frightening.

Not a large drop by any stretch of the imagination, but just enough to push you over. Much like $1 can bump you into another tax bracket.


Or it could have been a different issue...

Only there's an entire other category called "Excessive" in between the two, and I was ranked in the top 80 earlier. And Wolomy/Sirocco, I don't see WHY forced labor is necessarily a harsher punishment than jail. Especially since labor increases the rate of rehabilitation.

The primary purpose of forced labour is to punish those who have committed crime. The main purpose of prison is to protect society from that person. So while both may deprive a person of their rights, prison does so to ensure that the rights of others are upheld while forced labour does so in order to make money. It is also in many ways more than simply locking someone up.

Where the focus is on punishment I would argue there is a lower chance of rehabilitation and a greater chance that the person will feel some resentment to society if/when released. Not only that but profitable forced labour gives the state an incentive to get more people doing it, so harsher sentences are likely as a result.

A questoin about a different issue civil rights issue...the language issue. I chose to keep one language in my nation (possibly the one everyone can agree on, possibly another), and I dropped from Left-Leaning College to Innofensive Centrist. (a personal freedoms drop .. closely tied with civil rights). Now, that on it's own I can accept, but this was several days ago and I have tried my darndest to boost those freedoms back (except the b-day issue) and I just can't seem to get it to happen. Just how big of a personal freedoms drop was denying those couple-thousand/650M people there langauge on EVERY SIGN in my country? It seems to me re-printing every sign so that ~.1% of the population that can't be bothered to learn the language can use them too is a bit much.

A questoin about a different issue civil rights issue...the language issue. I chose to keep one language in my nation (possibly the one everyone can agree on, possibly another), and I dropped from Left-Leaning College to Innofensive Centrist. (a personal freedoms drop .. closely tied with civil rights). Now, that on it's own I can accept, but this was several days ago and I have tried my darndest to boost those freedoms back (except the b-day issue) and I just can't seem to get it to happen. Just how big of a personal freedoms drop was denying those couple-thousand/650M people there langauge on EVERY SIGN in my country? It seems to me re-printing every sign so that ~.1% of the population that can't be bothered to learn the language can use them too is a bit much.

It seems it is far easier to mess up than it is to repair damage. One of the new issues dropped my civil rights from world benchmark to superb, so far I have been unable to correct this even though on almost all issues I answer in order to boost civil rights.
Part of the problem is, as this thread has demonstrated, we all have different ideas on what would boost civil rights. Since the moderation on issues appears to have been rather poor to say the least this difference of opinion is probably reflected in their consequences.

Those are some tough options. It's hard to make a choice without risking something...

Unfortunately, a great many of the issues are lose-lose situations. Unless it's obvious that a choice will boost something that you want boosted, or you already know what it will do - and most of the rest of the time, as well - the best thing to do is probably to dismiss it.