NationStates Jolt Archive

As a matter of interest what is the status of the Bible as a reference in a proposed w.a. resolution ? Or for that matter any other religious scripture? Are they Real World or does the presence of christians and other RL religions in NS make them NS world also?

Here's where i'm arguing that they are real world references http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14197900&postcount=729 , of course if the linked post should be elsewhere let me know :)


U.

well I'm not a mod but considering Christianity is practiced in NSRping, there is no reason to bar the use of Bible. But that's just me.

well I'm not a mod but considering Christianity is practiced in NSRping, there is no reason to bar the use of Bible. But that's just me.


Ok that's true but is there anywhere my rp characters can go to ( rp ) read these holy books to verify their content when they are quoted in a resolution? And if not aren't authors of such resolutions relying on a real world text which may not be available to rp characters?

I guess, since you brought up Gnosticism in the link, if the mods decide to rule the Bible as a permissible reference in a resolution, the Nag Hammadi library should be permitted as a reference as well. Also so should the Ethiopic Bible, which uses Jubilees instead of Genesis. If you do some intense study of the site sacredtexts.com, I think you could assemble an interesting religious text that fits the tastes of your nation's brand of Christianity or whatever other religion you may have your nation follow. However you are treading in a difficult area, so I do not know how to go about it. Let's wait to hear the mods ruling.

I would say in RPing, a character could perhaps obtain a copy of the Bible, since it has been mentioned there are Christian nations in NS, my puppet Sacred Republic of Via Crucis being one of them (its traditional law code is, in fact, based loosely on Scripture).

I guess, since you brought up Gnosticism in the link, if the mods decide to rule the Bible as a permissible reference in a resolution, the Nag Hammadi library should be permitted as a reference as well. Also so should the Ethiopic Bible, which uses Jubilees instead of Genesis. If you do some intense study of the site sacredtexts.com, I think you could assemble an interesting religious text that fits the tastes of your nation's brand of Christianity or whatever other religion you may have your nation follow. However you are treading in a difficult area, so I do not know how to go about it. Let's wait to hear the mods ruling.

I would say in RPing, a character could perhaps obtain a copy of the Bible, since it has been mentioned there are Christian nations in NS, my puppet Sacred Republic of Via Crucis being one of them (its traditional law code is, in fact, based loosely on Scripture).



And I'm sure Urgench's Ambassador to the w.a. would be glad to borrow such a document. However such a document could not be used for official purposes at the w.a. since there is no w.a. library in which to compare texts.

Urgench's Ambassador, Khan Mongkha would have access only to fragmentary occidental bibles in museums in Urgench or Nestorian bibles which are radically different to western christian bibles. You can see the dilemma

I see the dilemma. I happened to look at the resolution that brought it up. I would argue that it was not so much the biblical reference that was the problem as it was that the argument was poorly constructed, it was discriminatory in nature, and some would have deemed it offensive. Also I would say that it was deleted because it was miscategorized for improving human rights does not mean restricting civil rights on any basis. Again it is a fine line, but in the context of the resolution that was posted, there were enough things wrong with it that would make hard to tell if it actually was the biblical reference that did it in. N.B. it was not a mod who said it was a RL reference, so again we have to wait for their judgement. I could see using references to various versions of religious texts used in RPs to make a moral argument for a particular resolution, but again it is difficult territory... I am glad I am not the judge.

We always consider rulings on Real World References (RWR) in the context of the proposal in question. I'm not going to give a blanket yes or no to your question, as there may be times when it is allowed, and others when it isn't. It all depends on how it is used.

"God made Adam ad Eve NOT Adam and Steave" isn't a Biblical quote. (Nor does it bear any resemblance to grammatical correctness.) I wouldn't remove this proposal for RWR. I would most likely remove it for Category and Contradiction violations, however.

If a player based a law and explicitly cited the Ten Commandments, I'd probably remove that as RWR, especially since the Ten Commandments were never voted in as core WA law. As to anything else, I'd have to see it to rule.



As to the content of this thread, please refrain from extended theological discussion in the Moderation forum. You can raise such threads in the WA forum or General, depending on how you want to play it, but this forum is for rulings, not discussions.

Frisbeeteria, so would it be safe to assume that, generally, a reference to Scripture would be an RL reference, thus warranting deletion of the resolution? Just wondering if that is what you mean, so I am able to understand the game rules better.

No, it's not safe to say. It depends on what is said and how it is used.

If you included the line "Love your neighbor as yourself" in a proposal, that would be entirely legal. But if you referenced it as (Leviticus 19:18), that would be a RL reference.

The Bible and other religious tomes are fine sources for moral lessons and legality ideas, but they don't necessarily exist in NS. You just have to find a way to bring in those moral codes without breaking the 4th wall.

You just have to find a way to bring in those moral codes without breaking the 4th wall.


Before anybody asks: this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall) is the fourth wall and this is an example of breaking it:

The MMORPG Runescape makes a reference to the real world too. When the player speaks to a bartender, the bartender states that the entire world (RuneScape) is just a video game. Your character assumes the bartender is insane, and leaves him.

(This is unlikely to happen, however, in any of the NS bars.)

No, it's not safe to say. It depends on what is said and how it is used.

If you included the line "Love your neighbor as yourself" in a proposal, that would be entirely legal. But if you referenced it as (Leviticus 19:18), that would be a RL reference.

The Bible and other religious tomes are fine sources for moral lessons and legality ideas, but they don't necessarily exist in NS. You just have to find a way to bring in those moral codes without breaking the 4th wall.


So, for instance, an otherwise legal repeal based on or including one or more quotations from a real world bible would be illegal for RWR ?

Y'all are making much too big an issue about this. To the best of my knowledge, this has never been an issue. Why are you demanding clarifications on something that hasn't happened yet?

So, for instance, an otherwise legal repeal based on or including one or more quotations from a real world bible would be illegal for RWR ?

No, no, no. You're not getting this. A "Citation" listing chapter and verse is illegal. A "quotation", being just the words themselves, probably would not.

Finally, I will not rule on hypotheticals. When somebody posts something, ask me then. In the meantime, no more clarifications on non-existent rules for non-existent situations.

Oops sorry i should have said Citation instead, it's what i meant. But thanks for your time Frisbeeteria, I'll quite bugging you. It's been a pleasure as usual. :)