Kampfers
01-10-2007, 03:01
Hello good and friendly mods. I am having a bit of trouble with another player, whose nation goes by the name of Dartia. Our trouble goes back a little bit, to where I accidently called one of his puppets by the name of Dartia. He refuses to believe this was an accident, and even though I have asked for his forgiveness, he has refused to give it to me. Recently, I designed a ship called the KNA K19 "Schweigsame Nacht" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13072642&postcount=61), from hereon reffered to as the K19. Within one day of posting this design, Dartia posted (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=63) that I had plagarised his design. He did not provide me with any links as to the ship I supposedly plagarised, nor did he care when someone who knows me to be an honest person told him that it was unlikely (Hamilay posted here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073765&postcount=64), and Dartia responded here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073775&postcount=65)). I politely asked Dartia where to find this ship that I had "plagarised", and also said that if it did appear that I had, I would no longer sell the ship (My post is here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073991&postcount=66)). Following that, Dartia responded rudely, but did provide me with the link. At this point, I began to anger, as this was A) giving my storefront a bad reputation, and B) taking up space in my storefront where people should be posting orders or I (or my fellow collaboraters) would be posting new designs. Following this, I went onto the much acclaimed "NSDraftroom" IRC room, and showed them the two ships. Wagdog, Mekugi, and many other notable nations said that there was nothing too similar between the designs. The fact that they are both stealth Visby knock-off ships is the reason why he sees similarities. Dartia, in the previous post, also accused me of plagarising a website, which I shall get to later. He also accuses me of seeing his article, liking it, and deciding to make my own. I responded (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13074271&postcount=68) not in the most polite of ways. Yes, I know that is a flame. Go ahead, do what you will. I was in a bad mood, and ya'll can see what I wrote even if I edit it, so it doesn't matter. Around that flame, however, I made several valid points. By saying that I visit his storefront frequently, Dartia does not provide a logical argument, but rather falls to a logical fallacy, that of hasty generalization.
1) I know you read my storefront because you’ve posted there eight times recently, and used to complain to me often if I sold to someone you didn’t like. (link will be provided later)
Actually, until recently, when I posted there asking him to get on IRC, I had not been to his storefront nor any other storefront besides KReigzimmer, the IAC, and HTC for over two weeks. That places it before when he released this ship. I had posted there frequently, asking him to possibly temporary blacklist people in the Corporate Alliance, whom an alliance we are both in (UFAN) was fighting at the peak of the CA-NPE war. However, since that time, I had not visited his storefront to my knowledge. If he is able to provide a link to a post I had within this time period, I will retract that claim, but until then, it will stand. I also listed the sources I used, truthfully, as he had provided a link to a website I had not used in the research preceding my desinging of that ship. What makes me laugh is that the article he provides OBVIOUSLY plagarises off of the original sources, the Kockums articles I used, and he does not mention that once. I then told him to not post again in my thread.
Yet, despite my harsh cry, he did. I had pulled the nice guy card and the hard-ass card, and he was still on my case. By now I was quite fully pissed off. After this and one more post by him (here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13076389&postcount=70)), and a quick note (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13076456&postcount=71) from Maldorians, with whom I have a less-than-good relationship, to put it nicely, I posted in his storefront asking him to please get on IRC so we could attempt to calmly talk it out with level heads. He did, but as IRC logs can be edited and we did this through a query window, no one would be able to prove I had not edited what was said. As my integrity is being called into question here, I will not post this, as it could otherwise be considered "tainted" or whatnot. I went through paragraph by paragraph of my article for him, showing how only one paragraph really only had true links to the sources I used. The jist i recieved from him, however, was that he would never believe me.
That brings us to this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13092423&postcount=73) post. At the bottom, I explain that I am going to continue to sell the K19. I politely ask that he refrain from posting in my storefront again.
Once again, he defied me. In this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13094000&postcount=76) post, he goes through and attempts to point out where I plagarised from the sources I did use. He also calls into question the pictures I drew. Yes, they show similarities to the pictures on the website. However, when I showed that website to the people on the draftroom IRC room, they all said that I should make imitations of the pictures. I posted them on Lineart, and also asked a few people individually about them, but none raised any complaints. Do not artists imitate the masters? Its not like I copied and pasted the pictures into my paint program. Each line on my ship hull was painstakingly drawn, and the list goes on.
About the quotes he accuses me of plagarising, none are direct quotes. There are only so many ways to describe the exact same thing, just wanked up a bit for NS. Even the article that he provided earlier used many of the same "phraseologies", and it is an acclaimed website. Why is their integrity not being called into question?
Finally, he ends this post by stating this:
True, it is harder to prove you stole the idea from me, but I have every reason to believe that you did:
1) I know you read my storefront because you’ve posted there eight times recently, and used to complain to me often if I sold to someone you didn’t like.
2) Not even two weeks before you released this, I released a ship also based on the Visby, which has been selling well.
3) You demonstrated a willingness to copy other people’s work by plagiarizing your sources.
4) Because the only time I trusted you before, you abused that trust.
5) There seem to be more similarities between our vessels than I would expect.
I have already explained that his first point is a logical fallacy. The second point has an inherent tie in with the first point. I did not go to his storefront, and thus did not know he had made a ship like this. His third point is yet another logical fallacy, being a hasty generalization. Just because one plagarised once does not mean they will do so again. You can not draw a conclusion based on one example. His fourth point is both a hasty generalization and an ad hominem fallacy. Not only does draw a premature conclusion about me not having integrity, based soley upon the case of me accidently giving away his second nation's identity, but he also attacks me, the player, as opposed to the argument. Finally, the fifth point is not really an argument, more like a statement that is biased to his viewpoint.
Finally, I would like to go through my design and defend it, rather than pointing out holes in Dartia's argument. I have this design (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13072642&postcount=61) broken up into segments. The first such section is "History". Dartia claims that I copied this from him, and just edited it to fit my nation. However, if you go back and look at any of my other designs in this thread (examples can be provided if requested), I always had this section, and it is always very similar. I have a rough "form" that I use for all these designs in the history section. The second segment is the "Purpose" section. It is fully original, except for a slightly modified part that Dartia likes to point out about what the K19 or Visby is good at hiding from. Frankly, I don't see any other way to put this, as it is a list of shared characteristics. Other than changing the order of the list, it is kind of hard to change this up very much. The next segment is the "Main Armament" segment, and it is fully original. After that comes the "Secondary Armament" segment, it too being fully original. Then comes the "Stealth Features" section, where Dartia finds most of his arguments. I, however, do not know a different way to define CFRP. The K19 also shares many design similarities to the Visby, and as such, the sentences were carried over. A "specially-designed hatch" is still a "specially-designed hatch", no matter how you word it. I have already presented my argument for the images, and will not reword it here. Finally, the "Propulsion" and "Specifications" sections were written completely by me, and Dartia presents no issues with them. I originally had an "Air Complement" section as well that was completely original, but after some debate with the NSDraftroom, we decided that a helicopter was unfeasible and removed it from the design.
Now, I believe I have fully stated my argument. I would like a moderator's ruling on this ship. My personal opinion is that Dartia has a bone to pick with me for accidentally outing his puppet nation, but that is probably biased. Just the same, I believe his view is biased. I have asked people on the draftroom IRC room, and they have sided with me, however this has not mattered to Dartia. However, on NS, the moderator's rulings are final, and as such, I am asking for your opinions. Either way, once you have completed your ruling, would you please delete all of the argumentative posts that have no IC in them as to remove clutter from my (and my friends') storefront.
These posts are at the following links:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=63
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=64
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=65
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=66
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=67
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=68
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=70
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=71
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=76
1) I know you read my storefront because you’ve posted there eight times recently, and used to complain to me often if I sold to someone you didn’t like. (link will be provided later)
Actually, until recently, when I posted there asking him to get on IRC, I had not been to his storefront nor any other storefront besides KReigzimmer, the IAC, and HTC for over two weeks. That places it before when he released this ship. I had posted there frequently, asking him to possibly temporary blacklist people in the Corporate Alliance, whom an alliance we are both in (UFAN) was fighting at the peak of the CA-NPE war. However, since that time, I had not visited his storefront to my knowledge. If he is able to provide a link to a post I had within this time period, I will retract that claim, but until then, it will stand. I also listed the sources I used, truthfully, as he had provided a link to a website I had not used in the research preceding my desinging of that ship. What makes me laugh is that the article he provides OBVIOUSLY plagarises off of the original sources, the Kockums articles I used, and he does not mention that once. I then told him to not post again in my thread.
Yet, despite my harsh cry, he did. I had pulled the nice guy card and the hard-ass card, and he was still on my case. By now I was quite fully pissed off. After this and one more post by him (here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13076389&postcount=70)), and a quick note (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13076456&postcount=71) from Maldorians, with whom I have a less-than-good relationship, to put it nicely, I posted in his storefront asking him to please get on IRC so we could attempt to calmly talk it out with level heads. He did, but as IRC logs can be edited and we did this through a query window, no one would be able to prove I had not edited what was said. As my integrity is being called into question here, I will not post this, as it could otherwise be considered "tainted" or whatnot. I went through paragraph by paragraph of my article for him, showing how only one paragraph really only had true links to the sources I used. The jist i recieved from him, however, was that he would never believe me.
That brings us to this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13092423&postcount=73) post. At the bottom, I explain that I am going to continue to sell the K19. I politely ask that he refrain from posting in my storefront again.
Once again, he defied me. In this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13094000&postcount=76) post, he goes through and attempts to point out where I plagarised from the sources I did use. He also calls into question the pictures I drew. Yes, they show similarities to the pictures on the website. However, when I showed that website to the people on the draftroom IRC room, they all said that I should make imitations of the pictures. I posted them on Lineart, and also asked a few people individually about them, but none raised any complaints. Do not artists imitate the masters? Its not like I copied and pasted the pictures into my paint program. Each line on my ship hull was painstakingly drawn, and the list goes on.
About the quotes he accuses me of plagarising, none are direct quotes. There are only so many ways to describe the exact same thing, just wanked up a bit for NS. Even the article that he provided earlier used many of the same "phraseologies", and it is an acclaimed website. Why is their integrity not being called into question?
Finally, he ends this post by stating this:
True, it is harder to prove you stole the idea from me, but I have every reason to believe that you did:
1) I know you read my storefront because you’ve posted there eight times recently, and used to complain to me often if I sold to someone you didn’t like.
2) Not even two weeks before you released this, I released a ship also based on the Visby, which has been selling well.
3) You demonstrated a willingness to copy other people’s work by plagiarizing your sources.
4) Because the only time I trusted you before, you abused that trust.
5) There seem to be more similarities between our vessels than I would expect.
I have already explained that his first point is a logical fallacy. The second point has an inherent tie in with the first point. I did not go to his storefront, and thus did not know he had made a ship like this. His third point is yet another logical fallacy, being a hasty generalization. Just because one plagarised once does not mean they will do so again. You can not draw a conclusion based on one example. His fourth point is both a hasty generalization and an ad hominem fallacy. Not only does draw a premature conclusion about me not having integrity, based soley upon the case of me accidently giving away his second nation's identity, but he also attacks me, the player, as opposed to the argument. Finally, the fifth point is not really an argument, more like a statement that is biased to his viewpoint.
Finally, I would like to go through my design and defend it, rather than pointing out holes in Dartia's argument. I have this design (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13072642&postcount=61) broken up into segments. The first such section is "History". Dartia claims that I copied this from him, and just edited it to fit my nation. However, if you go back and look at any of my other designs in this thread (examples can be provided if requested), I always had this section, and it is always very similar. I have a rough "form" that I use for all these designs in the history section. The second segment is the "Purpose" section. It is fully original, except for a slightly modified part that Dartia likes to point out about what the K19 or Visby is good at hiding from. Frankly, I don't see any other way to put this, as it is a list of shared characteristics. Other than changing the order of the list, it is kind of hard to change this up very much. The next segment is the "Main Armament" segment, and it is fully original. After that comes the "Secondary Armament" segment, it too being fully original. Then comes the "Stealth Features" section, where Dartia finds most of his arguments. I, however, do not know a different way to define CFRP. The K19 also shares many design similarities to the Visby, and as such, the sentences were carried over. A "specially-designed hatch" is still a "specially-designed hatch", no matter how you word it. I have already presented my argument for the images, and will not reword it here. Finally, the "Propulsion" and "Specifications" sections were written completely by me, and Dartia presents no issues with them. I originally had an "Air Complement" section as well that was completely original, but after some debate with the NSDraftroom, we decided that a helicopter was unfeasible and removed it from the design.
Now, I believe I have fully stated my argument. I would like a moderator's ruling on this ship. My personal opinion is that Dartia has a bone to pick with me for accidentally outing his puppet nation, but that is probably biased. Just the same, I believe his view is biased. I have asked people on the draftroom IRC room, and they have sided with me, however this has not mattered to Dartia. However, on NS, the moderator's rulings are final, and as such, I am asking for your opinions. Either way, once you have completed your ruling, would you please delete all of the argumentative posts that have no IC in them as to remove clutter from my (and my friends') storefront.
These posts are at the following links:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=63
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=64
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=65
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=66
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=67
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=68
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=70
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=71
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13073755&postcount=76