NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, I'm rarely one to call, "Unfair mods," I'm more likely to argue unfair rules, or unclear rules. But this latest display has forced me to wake up and smell the cow dung.

Someone comes into Moderation because their thread was spammed with OOC. You can't honestly expect me, or anyone else on II, to believe for a moment that you wouldn't have come down like a ton of bricks on these spammers if the thread creator were anyone BUT Hataria. Hence, mod bias.

Now, I have been on II for two years, and Hataria for three years. I've participated in several of Hataria's more recent threads, and had fun, and never have I been involved in any conflict with him IC or OOC. Quite frankly, I think the "retard n00b Hataria" myth was blown way out of proportion, and that it was never recognized that he did develop some decent RP skills. I myself have taken the effort to help him out and do not like the fruits of my efforts being obliterated in a few keystrokes.

No. You forfeit thread ownership in this case.

These people are critiquing your obvious godmod and inability to accept that your nation has been utterly destroyed within the past month. You did this two days ago, and I locked it. No more.

Hataria, you received a Final Warning from another mod today. We're tired of your use of the thread ownership rules to bury your horrid roleplay. We're not backing you any more. Live with it, or leave.

Exhibit Alpha: An outright refusal by a moderator to intervene in a clear-cut case of spamming. Now let me refute.

Thread Ownership: Roleplay threads are largely controlled by the topic originator. The title of the thread may include such statements as [Open], , or [Closed], and the first post may contain additional information pertaining to who may or may not participate in the thread. This should be considered carefully before posting, as editing in later instructions may not be enforceable. The thread owner may make a moderation request for post removal, player ejection from a thread, and/or post locking or deletion. Note: Thread ownership only applies to these two forums.

Noteworthy point here: OOC RP threads not directly connected to a actual RP thread [ie discussion of general ideas or design] are subject to the same rules as the general forum to avoid people trying to stifle criticism of their ideas using the 'originator controls thread' RP post rule.

The RP 'originator controls thread' concept exists to prevent unwelcome players from disrupting roleplaying and detracting from in-character posting. It is applied to out-of-character posts directly linked to in-character threads because only the posters in the in-character thread have any real need to use the attached discussion thread. It is not a blunt instrument to be used to silence criticism in pure OOC threads discussing general concepts, be it history, nuclear weapons, ship design or anything else.

The thread in question posted by Hataria, here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=529964), is clearly an IC thread, not an OOC RP thread or a pure OOC thread.

As for Hataria's "obvious godmod[I]e", i.e. refusing to accept a random nuclear spam attack, the recent attacks on Hataria since I advised him to read AMF's post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8855692&postcount=4) regarding good and bad reasons to declare war, were largely motivated by OOC desires to keep Hataria off of NS, and therefore themselves n00bish and grounds for ignore.

To add insult to injury, a moderator then calls Hataria's roleplay style "horrid" and tells him to "live with it, or leave." When a moderator is refusing to enforce the rules to protect a poster from clear harassment and having a pure fun IC thread spammed with pointless posts, then that is indicative of moderator bias. The moderator knew Hataria wasn't going to just "live with it." What was EXPECTED to happen?

I made a post myself defending Hataria in his last request for assistance. Personally, I think that if you get nuked out of the blue by thousands of nukes, you have every right to employ the I.G.N.O.R.E. shield. While I usually just claim a ridiculous accuracy with my ABM's, as I hate ignoring, I think in this case use of I.G.N.O.R.E. followed by building - not to insane levels like 1,300 battleships (something around 300-400, I like to keep battleships less than 5% of my fleet) - but to a size that's reasonably strong for a nation of 6.5 or so billion. No godmode (and I'm sick of people who can't spell that word) involved.

As posted above, and here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12769763&postcount=8), I had my own criticism for Hataria, with regard to the size of his military forces. Mine, however, did not take the form of insisting he accept the aforementioned OOCly-motivated nuclear spam attack. I am not advocating stifling of critique, despite the fact I've had my own bad experiences on Draftroom, where criticism is a fact of daily life for all but the elite.

The moderators' response to me, the first person in that thread to unequivocally defend Hataria?

Enough is enough. We're done here.

And with that and a thread lock, the Moderation staff shows its bias again, and openly admits it doesn't want to hear anything defending Hataria. Without even making the most perfunctory attempt to refute my points, the Moderators would rather simply lock the thread.

Now, I'm not an expert debater by any stretch of the imagination, but I did take a course in critical thinking. (http://www.winthrop.edu/english/WritingProgram/CompProgram/Winthrop%20Writing%20Program%20-%20CRTW201.htm) I hated it with every fiber of my being, but I don't need a critical thinking class to tell me that when someone shuts down discussion, their minds are already made up. Rather than have them changed, they simply shut down the thread.

What makes any of Hataria's threads any different from any other thread anywhere else on the forums as far as the rules are concerned?

Could it be that the mods and the player base are, I don't know...

Fed up with Hataria?

Surely, three years worth of protection and second chances with no signs of rehabilitation are grounds enough for us to be a slight bit peeved?

Although, I digress, this is just my opinion, the mods are the true authority on this, and I'll take my leave.

What makes any of Hataria's threads any different from any other thread anywhere else on the forums as far as the rules are concerned?

Mod bias. As I pointed out before, they refused to intervene when one of his threads was spammed.

It really doesn't matter what someone's RP quality is as long as it doesn't violate the rules. It says right in the stickies in II that RP is not really policed, except in certain cases for content.

You put a poll on the thread? Seriously?

I haven't the faintest clue about role playing, but even I could see that Hataria was very, very bad at it. I could also see that he was asked nicely to stop wasting people's time; then he was asked less nicely; then he was told to knock it off; then he was told to stop; then he was told that he was going to be ignored; then he was told to bugger off.

If someone doesn't learn after all that, what can you do?

That thread was spammed with 100% OOC comments, which != roleplay. I think that's different from n00k-spamming, which at least has the veneer of IC, although that was IMO motivated to force him OOC from the forums.

Rumor is circulating that Hataria threatened to sue Jolt again, hence his deletion. Unsure if it's true or not, but if it is then I'd say that is a perfectly legitimate reason.

Rumor is circulating that Hataria threatened to sue Jolt again, hence his deletion. Unsure if it's true or not, but if it is then I'd say that is a perfectly legitimate reason.

He did.

Rumor is circulating that Hataria threatened to sue Jolt again, hence his deletion. Unsure if it's true or not, but if it is then I'd say that is a perfectly legitimate reason.

And, IIRC, he was warned not to do so again the last time he threatened legal action. Hell, I think that was the time when Fris announced that the mods would no longer get involved with Hataria's constant complaints. Could be wrong, though.

He did.

I see.

Then the argument about him getting banned because of his RP is moot, since it wasn't the reason for his deletion.

I think the whole Hataria thing should now be laid to rest this is the end of a very dark chapter for Nationstates. One that I hope will be remembered and the lessons learnt. We are all responsible for what has happened and I hope we will all learn something from it.

As for Hat sueing Jolt all I would like to say is "Lighten Up its a Fricken Forum"

V

Dude...You can't democratically ban someone. Otherwise every annoying neocon troll would be gone in a day.

Dude...You can't democratically ban someone. Otherwise every annoying neocon troll would be gone in a day.

Or every trolling liberal for that matter.

Technically, Jolt's just a host for the NS forums, but I digress. Anyway, there's nothing in the rules about threatening to sue NS if you feel that you're being bullied, and there were likely some who did act IC for OOC reasons.

Rumor is circulating that Hataria threatened to sue Jolt again, hence his deletion. Unsure if it's true or not, but if it is then I'd say that is a perfectly legitimate reason.

What possible reason could he give to justify such an action?

Rumor is circulating that Hataria threatened to sue Jolt again, hence his deletion. Unsure if it's true or not, but if it is then I'd say that is a perfectly legitimate reason.

Bolded for emphasis.

Then the argument about him getting banned because of his RP is moot, since it wasn't the reason for his deletion.

That is correct. We tolerated Hataria's bad roleplay because it didn't, in itself, break the rules. His threats to sue both us and Jolt, and his continual abuse of the Thread Ownership rules to demand deletion of posts that disagreed with him, on what seemed to be a daily basis, were what earned him his final warning.

It was this post (IMMEDIATELY following two different warnings to drop the issue) in Got Issues (since moved) that sealed his fate and ultimately caused his deletion.

There are two much Bullying on NS now, Becuase all the Mods are being Payed by Those Bakas. this is going to far. I am going to make sure that this Issue keeps comeing up till something is done about it!

Something was indeed done about it, and his nation no longer exists.

What possible reason could he give to justify such an action?Hataria's position is that he was being mercilessly attacked IC for OOC reasons, mainly to drive him off of NS. At least that was what he said when he wanted to sue NS for abetting cyber-bullying last time.

I like the new option on the poll because it's so true, unless everyone here paid for the servers then we really do have no say in all technicality.

Anyway what was the last hairbrained reason he tried to sue Jolt for?

this is not a democracy

epic fail

this is not a democracy

epic fail

All glory to our all-powerful leaders.

Hataria's position is that he was being mercilessly attacked IC for OOC reasons, mainly to drive him off of NS. At least that was what he said when he wanted to sue NS for abetting cyber-bullying last time.



While that may be breaking NationStates roleplay etiquette, that's not grounds for legal action on a site of this nature.

this is not a democracy

Go with the flow, I guess.

Sieg Moderation!

Ultimate fail, K'stan. Hataria has been flamebaiting for three years and has several outright cases of flaming and at least one of intellectual copyright violation. We finally get rid of him and you want him back? Quit whining. This is not a democracy, we already found that out.

Technically, Jolt's just a host for the NS forums, but I digress. Anyway, there's nothing in the rules about threatening to sue NS if you feel that you're being bullied, and there were likely some who did act IC for OOC reasons.It's kind of logical that threatening the people who host the collection of ones and zeros wont be tolerated, isn't it?

I mean, it's been repeatedly stated that NS' rules are not set in stone, but are evolving as new and previously not thought about cases come up (Personally, I wouldn't expect people to be daft enough to threaten legal action over such cases, but reality once more proves me wrong), exactly because endless 'Legal' hassling on what is, in fact, a privately owned website whose owner can do more or less everything he fucking wants is silly and undesirable.

Ahh, i'd like to say it should be 10,001 for this is not a democracy. A mods got a job to do it, they should do it fairly and when its clear hataria was warned NOT to carry on and he did its simply- he should be banned. I would expect no less for myself.

And stating that its other people who are at fault for attacking hataria ICly and OOCly is ridiculous. Just the other day Doom invited me into a convo with hataria because hataria had got some very poorly informed information regarding Kahanistan ICly and had stated that i had been one of the people say this. However, it then emerged not long after that Hataria had decided he wanted to invade Doomingsland...now it seems to me Hataria didn't need to say he was planning on invading but he did anyway. Why? Who knows, but it goes to show its not everyone elses fault.

Well done moderation, an excellent deletion and a great decision.

This is not the first time somebody has threatened to sue us, and I doubt it will be the last. The fact that it's not in the Official Rules thread is irrelevant to the fact that we have a standard response to such threats.

In short, those threatening legal action will not be allowed access to our site until the successful resolution of their legal case, in their favor.



So far, haven't seen a lot of follow-through.

Epic fail.


Seriously, though. Hataria ceaselessly petitioned the mods to intervene on his behalf when the IC actions of other players irritated him and/or prevented him from doing what he wanted to do. The control of an OP over his thread does not extend to the IC actions of other players in that thread, nor to their OOC posts which criticize his IC actions. Those OOC posts were not, IIRC, spam. They were rational criticism.

Exhibit A: Spam
LOLZ I R TEH SPAMMERZOR
LOLZ I R TEH SPAMMERZOR
And cetera.

Exhibit B: Not Spam:
Hataria, X Y and Z claims don't make sense for X', Y' and Z' reasons.
Do you see my point?

This is not our problem, it's the mods' problem. Let them worry about how justified the delete is.

That is correct. We tolerated Hataria's bad roleplay because it didn't, in itself, break the rules. His threats to sue both us and Jolt, and his continual abuse of the Thread Ownership rules to demand deletion of posts that disagreed with him, on what seemed to be a daily basis, were what earned him his final warning.

It was this post (IMMEDIATELY following two different warnings to drop the issue) in Got Issues (since moved) that sealed his fate and ultimately caused his deletion.



Something was indeed done about it, and his nation no longer exists.

... sad...

guess there needs to be a Learning to RP thread... again...

This is not the first time somebody has threatened to sue us, and I doubt it will be the last. The fact that it's not in the Official Rules thread is irrelevant to the fact that we have a standard response to such threats.

In short, those threatening legal action will not be allowed access to our site until the successful resolution of their legal case, in their favor.



So far, haven't seen a lot of follow-through.

Might want to post that in the OSRS.

... sad...

guess there needs to be a Learning to RP thread... again...

Well, there are the stickies. Whatever happened to Role Play University? I remember that forum being advertised on II before.

Rumor is circulating that Hataria threatened to sue Jolt again, hence his deletion. Unsure if it's true or not, but if it is then I'd say that is a perfectly legitimate reason.Bolded for emphasis.

Rumor confirmed (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12771227).

Might want to post that in the OSRS.

And we might not. Not everything we do is recorded in the OSRS, nor will it be. There are ample good reasons why, and you don't have a Need to Know them.

What, precisely, did you think the people who dislike Hataria would do when they found out mods wouldn't do anything with his threads anymore? And what did you think Hataria's reaction would be to that?

Frisbeeteria's offical announcement that he wouldn't touch Hataria threads any more is one of the reasons his threads became noteably more crapped up with people who don't like him-- they knew they had mod-sanctioned immunity to do just about whatever they pleased.

edit: stupid timestamp bug, this is a reply to the post below

What, precisely, did you think the people who dislike Hataria would do when they found out mods wouldn't do anything with his threads anymore? And what did you think Hataria's reaction would be to that?

I wasn't even aware that the mods had stopped policing his thread when I attacked, and neither did a lot of people. That revelation cam later, IIRC.

What, precisely, did you think the people who dislike Hataria would do when they found out mods wouldn't do anything with his threads anymore? And what did you think Hataria's reaction would be to that?

They would exploit their opportunity to chase him off. He, of course, would react with extreme hostility.

And the owner of NS is in Australia, not England.

Jolt however is in Britain, which would be who hed end up having to sue, as NS doesn't own the forum only rent it or whatever, I imagine it would take a while for him to decide WHO he'd end up suing

The sueing issue is moot anyways as I'm pretty sure the Nationstates TOS (and the jolt TOS) give the right to terminate an account for any reason.

Frisbeeteria's offical announcement that he wouldn't touch Hataria threads any more is one of the reasons his threads became noteably more crapped up with people who don't like him-- they knew they had mod-sanctioned immunity to do just about whatever they pleased.

Not "Mods". "Mod". Just me. There are about 12 other mods who were more than welcome to police his threads. Ask any of the people Hack forumbanned for two weeks for dogpiling how they liked that immunity.

I probably shouldn't have made that announcement publicly, but there are limits even to my patience. In the roughly 200 mod actions I've taken on behalf of, or against Hataria, in the last 2-3 years, I've seen absolutely no inclination from him that any of the rulings made any kind of impact for more than a few hours or days. What does it take to get through to someone who absolutely refuses to learn from his mistakes?

Ask any skier or diver, and they'll tell you. Failure to learn is fatal in the real world. All he lost was an electronic nation in a web game. He should count himself among the fortunate.

I probably shouldn't have made that announcement publicly, but there are limits even to my patience. In the roughly 200 mod actions I've taken on behalf of, or against Hataria, in the last 2-3 years, I've seen absolutely no inclination from him that any of the rulings made any kind of impact for more than a few hours or days. What does it take to get through to someone who absolutely refuses to learn from his mistakes? To be fair, had you NOT announced it publicly... another mod would've. and also, had no mod announced it.... then there will be cries of "Mod Bias" again. :rolleyes:

Ask any skier or diver, and they'll tell you. Failure to learn is fatal in the real world. All he lost was an electronic nation in a web game. He should count himself among the fortunate.
"when at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is definately not for you." :p

Well, there are the stickies. Whatever happened to Role Play University? I remember that forum being advertised on II before.

RPU's been shut down. twice in fact.

(was a resident in the region)

i dive. one time i trailed too close to my dad and he kicked the reg out of my mouth. i learned fast not to follow so close.

And I thought NSG was bizarre.

Do the mods still (did they ever?) allow checks on peoples IPs to see if nations are puppets or not?

Do the mods still (did they ever?) allow checks on peoples IPs to see if nations are puppets or not?

That would fall into One of the Things We Won't Tell You (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12774060&postcount=10) category.

Funny poll... :rolleyes:

Funny poll... :rolleyes:

I agree. I didn't even know mods could do that to polls.

I agree. I didn't even know mods could do that to polls.

They can and have. It has been done to me. when I posted a poll asking if bush was a dumbass or a dumbass. they changed it to the OP is a dumbass if I rember right. It is very funny now that i think of it.

I would like to explain my action.

And with that and a thread lock, the Moderation staff shows its bias again, and openly admits it doesn't want to hear anything defending Hataria.No, I didn't lock the thread because I was biased against Hataria. I locked the thread because, with Hataria's deletion, it was irrelevent.

Indeed, as Fris mentioned, I have come down very hard on people who have dogpiled Hataria, just as I did on people who dogpiled previous players like him (ie: Thunk The God, and his puppets). In fact, if anything, my bias trends towards players like Hataria, rather than against. I like to think that there's hope for them, even if they seem like idiots. Thus, when people dogpile, I drop the hammer; hence those two week bans I handed out (which were almost deletions, truth be told).

Sadly, I'm continually wrong on this front. The players never learn, and the people who get their kicks beating up on them never learn either.

That would fall into One of the Things We Won't Tell You (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12774060&postcount=10) category.

Actually I've asked GMC for puppet scans before when I've suspected puppet wank, and he's done them.

(you can also ask for a puppet scan of yourself if you want to clear yourself)

Checking for puppetwanking (or sock-puppetting) is different than a random request for an IP lookup.

Well, as theres no real point to this thread i guess theres nothing wrong with asking:

If i suspect someone has a puppet involved in an RP then i could ask for a mod to check IPs? never realised that before...would it take more time than a couple of minutes, because if not then it could be worth it sometimes i guess.

Unless there is a rule being broken, why would be be involved?

It's poor roleplay etiquette, yes. But against the rules?

Just raising a small concern, hope I ain't gravedigging or anything. Are y'all gonna delete every one of Hataria's possible puppets?

I'd hate to see The Cassiopeia Galaxy go poof, since that's not Hataria's anymore.

Don't worry, we know about The Cassiopeia Galaxy. Only Hataria has been deleted.

~ Tsarmageddon is made of delicious chocolate

Am I correct in thinking that this deletion is a) not permanent and b) only applies to the Hataria nation?

Ok, I for one, as one of chief "invaders" and "Occupiers" of Hataria would merely like to state this to protect my name.

Firstly, I had no problem with him. Out of characterly I considered myself a friend of his and regularly chatted with him on MSN. My invasion was sparked because of an attack on me, or an implied one, which began the eventual war. I don't know about anyone else, but myself and ThePeoplesFreedom invaded because there was a hint of an actual IC attack on my fleet.


I felt I needed to say this because there has been numerous statements in this thread which claimed that we only invaded because of a hatred of Hataria, and a desire to drive him off NS, which, at least in my case, was certainly not the case.

Thank you for your time.

Am I correct in thinking that this deletion is a) not permanent and b) only applies to the Hataria nation?All deletions are permanent. The nation "hataria" is never coming back.

All deletions are permanent. The nation "hataria" is never coming back.

I meant in the sense that the player behind Hataria will still be allowed back.

Hataria the nation has been deleted. Hataria the player is not, however, Delete-on-Sight, and none of Hataria the player's other nations have been deleted. Hataria the player is welcome to continue roleplaying if he so wishes, but we would be very happy if everyone involved in that situation would clean up their collective act. If the situation continues in the vein which forced us to take this step, we will be very unhappy and a little more of our precious faith in humanity will seep away.

I hope that answers your question fully.

~ Tsarmageddon is complete and unabridged

It's kind of logical that threatening the people who host the collection of ones and zeros wont be tolerated, isn't it?

I mean, it's been repeatedly stated that NS' rules are not set in stone, but are evolving as new and previously not thought about cases come up (Personally, I wouldn't expect people to be daft enough to threaten legal action over such cases, but reality once more proves me wrong), exactly because endless 'Legal' hassling on what is, in fact, a privately owned website whose owner can do more or less everything he fucking wants is silly and undesirable.

ummm....
The laws have changed since 9/11.
The owner of a private forum or website is no longer to allowed to do whatever he or she wants with it. It is illegal in all nations to allow posts that promote pedophilia, terrorism, or genocide for example.
Likewise, many nations now have laws that bar all online forums from allowing what government officials call cyberbullying.
Many American states are only now adapting anti cyberbullying laws. I think the UK already has such laws but I could be wrong.

However, in some nations, it is also illegal to use the threat of legal action so as to intimidate or force someone else to do what you want them to do.
Because that could be considered as being a form of blackmail which itself is illegal under all circumstances.

It is illegal in all nations to allow posts that promote pedophilia, terrorism, or genocide for example.

Do you have a souce for that? Its quite interesting.

This isn't cyberbullying, since Hataria's participation in NS was voluntary. If he had been pursued outside of NS then it would maybe be different but that'd be none of jolts business.

The laws have changed since 9/11.
Yes, laws are different...

The owner of a private forum or website is no longer to allowed to do whatever he or she wants with it.
Untrue. If a forum is located in a nation without laws governing the internet, they can do what they wish.

It is illegal in all nations to allow posts that promote pedophilia, terrorism, or genocide for example.
Umm. I want to see the proof you have of this. And then I will direct you to radical islamic web sites (not linking of course) that depict cutting body parts off of people.....next.

Likewise, many nations now have laws that bar all online forums from allowing what government officials call cyberbullying.
I also wish to see proof of this. Please leave examples.

Many American states are only now adapting anti cyberbullying laws. I think the UK already has such laws but I could be wrong.
As above, Please show proof.

However, in some nations, it is also illegal to use the threat of legal action so as to intimidate or force someone else to do what you want them to do.

Because that could be considered as being a form of blackmail which itself is illegal under all circumstances.
Proof....por favor (probably spelled that wrong)


Do you have a souce for that? Its quite interesting.
I doubt he does....

Brachiosaurus, Hataria has no legal standing whatsoever to sue.

The TOS states that he may be banned for any reason whatsoever so he has no case at all.

Brachiosaurus, Hataria has no legal standing whatsoever to sue.

The TOS states that he may be banned for any reason whatsoever so he has no case at all.

So if I own a club and I have a sign up that says I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, I can ban black people from my club for being black?

Honestly. For one, this really ought to be over and done with. For another, this isn't a case of racism, so get over it already. Your example has absolutely nothing to do with the situation, and serves no point but to bring up unrelated hysterics, Brach.

Someone stick a fork in it. It's done.

So if I own a club and I have a sign up that says I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, I can ban black people from my club for being black?

It's your property, isn't it?

Yes, laws are different...


Untrue. If a forum is located in a nation without laws governing the internet, they can do what they wish.


Umm. I want to see the proof you have of this. And then I will direct you to radical islamic web sites (not linking of course) that depict cutting body parts off of people.....next.


I also wish to see proof of this. Please leave examples.


As above, Please show proof.


Proof....por favor (probably spelled that wrong)



I doubt he does....

Cyber harrassment/stalking is indeed illegal in the US. What the opponents of Hataria did could be defined as cyberharrassment. For potential penalties of people who engage in cyber harrassment/stalking see:

http://pcworld.about.com/news/Jan132006id124373.htm

You've managed to bump a topic that's been dead for a week with an irrelevant About.com article that in no way resembles this situation in either effect or jurisdiction.

If you want to have a discussion in General about cyber-bullying and its effects in NationStates, have it in General. We're done here.