NationStates Jolt Archive

it is a sign of hope, peace and glory. that is in fact why Hitler used it for his election campaign in the 1930's. he portrayed hope, peace and glory. if anything the flag of St. George should be banned, as it traditionally represents 'White Power', and openly promotes racism, hence it is an arrestible offense to hang it on its side!

Official Ruling(from the One-Stop Rule Shop) http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=275081 from a NON-official person.

1) Wrong forum.

2) The boss said so.

3) [not an answer] It's been banned for four years and will continued to be banned. Meanwhile, the flag of England will not be banned, nor the hammer and sickle, nor the Imperial Japanese Flag, nor the United States flag, nor the Stars-and-Bars, nor the French Flag (the Vietnamese at the very least could have some complaints with it), nor the Dutch flag (South Africans), etc. etc. etc.

it is a sign of hope, peace and glory. that is in fact why Hitler used it for his election campaign in the 1930's. he portrayed hope, peace and glory. if anything the flag of St. George should be banned, as it traditionally represents 'White Power', and openly promotes racism, hence it is an arrestible offense to hang it on its side!

The swastika may or may not mean those things to you; the best I've ever heard of it was that it's a shared Hindu and Japanese symbol of good luck.

Perhaps it does signify those things, though. However, think about it.
It is primarily associated with the Nazis. The Nazis were, by all accounts, not very nice people. In the slightest.
Hitler may have portrayed hope and peace and glory. He also portrayed the senseless slaughter of entire races, pointless wars and a fervent nationalism far beyond the horizon of madness.

For someone to be a patriot is nice. For someone to be a nationalist is not.

The swastika under the Nazis signified open 'Aryan supremacy'; the idea that the Nordic peoples, German in particular, were superior to other races.
That was wrong.
Whatever message you believe the swastika carried, the Nazis perverted it, and it is now impossible to separate from that perversion.

Lastly, give me evidence for your claim about the flag of Saint George. As an English patriot with very tolerant views I fail to see in the slightest how it signifies so-called 'white power'.

Why is the swastike banned?

To be honest, this is one thing I never understood myself.

Banning swastika would have made sense if Nazism and everything related to it was banned as well, but it isn’t. Players are allowed to have regions like “Nazi Germany”, and their residents are allowed to shout “Heil Hitler”, which IMHO, delivers much stronger messages of hate then swastika on nation’s flag. (Unless they are merely role-playing being Nazi, that is; myself, I am a firm supporter of free role-playing, but I can also understand why administration may wish to disallow players to role-play such extreme policies of hate as Nazism.)

But as the things stand now, players aren’t allowed to have swastikas on our flags, but allowed to have Nazi regions/organizations and (as far as I know) role-play Nazi nations. This doesn’t make much sense to me, to tell the truth.

P.S.

Though really, the answer to your question is very simple. Players aren’t allowed to have swastikas on their flags because [violet] said so!

Well guess what - it doesn't have to make sense. Site owner states the rules, none of us have to pay anything to enjoy it, all we have to do is stay within said rules, and there's no problem. Pretty simple.

You don't have to approve.

You don't have to agree.

You don't have to understand.

You just have to abide by the rules and guidelines. Not bad for a free ride, neh?

Well guess what - it doesn't have to make sense. Site owner states the rules, none of us have to pay anything to enjoy it, all we have to do is stay within said rules, and there's no problem. Pretty simple.

You don't have to approve.

You don't have to agree.

You don't have to understand.

You just have to abide by the rules and guidelines. Not bad for a free ride, neh?

I believe thats communism ... lets have the hammer and sickle banned also, 10million reasons, plus the jews killed in prague, if we are banning things that is ... which is very fascist now isnt it?

To be honest, this is one thing I never understood myself.

Banning swastika would have made sense if Nazism and everything related to it was banned as well, but it isn’t. Players are allowed to have regions like “Nazi Germany”, and their residents are allowed to shout “Heil Hitler”, which IMHO, delivers much stronger messages of hate then swastika on nation’s flag. (Unless they are merely role-playing being Nazi, that is; myself, I am a firm supporter of free role-playing, but I can also understand why administration may wish to disallow players to role-play such extreme policies of hate as Nazism.)

But as the things stand now, players aren’t allowed to have swastikas on our flags, but allowed to have Nazi regions/organizations and (as far as I know) role-play Nazi nations. This doesn’t make much sense to me, to tell the truth.

P.S.

Though really, the answer to your question is very simple. Players aren’t allowed to have swastikas on their flags because [violet] said so!

Flags can't really be argued against, whilst a post on the forum can. That's why swastikas on flags are banned.

And if users repeatedly show discriminatory and Nazi-like tendencies then they get banned. As simple as that. They're allowed to put forward their point of view, but too extreme and it's 'bye bye'.

And if users repeatedly show discriminatory and Nazi-like tendencies then they get banned. As simple as that. They're allowed to put forward their point of view, but too extreme and it's 'bye bye'.

Not exactly, and there's nothing simple about it. The deal-breaker is when you call for genocide against Jews or other 'inferior races', either directly or by declaring your support for Hilter's policies and calling for them to be brought back. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's a multi-mod judgment call, and even then we can get it wrong occasionally. Enforcing someone else's viewpoint is probably one of the hardest things we Mods actually have to do.

We're not the Thought Police. We allow Nazis and other groups to gather in regions and speak on the forums, but Max and [violet] have drawn lines that can't be crossed. Only when they cross those lines do we enforce those rules.

Not exactly, and there's nothing simple about it. The deal-breaker is when you call for genocide against Jews or other 'inferior races', either directly or by declaring your support for Hilter's policies and calling for them to be brought back. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's a multi-mod judgment call, and even then we can get it wrong occasionally. Enforcing someone else's viewpoint is probably one of the hardest things we Mods actually have to do.

We're not the Thought Police. We allow Nazis and other groups to gather in regions and speak on the forums, but Max and [violet] have drawn lines that can't be crossed. Only when they cross those lines do we enforce those rules.

That's what I meant by the 'too extreme' part; the crossing of those lines.
I didn't know it was so complicated to get it done, though.

Yup. As far as I can tell, calls for mass murder on these forums must be based purely on location rather than race, nationality or religion. The fact that race, nationality and religion are often tied to location is of course irrelevant.

"Lets nuke Iran into the stone age"
OK!

"Lets nuke the Iranians into the stone age."
Ok, but you're on thin ice here

"Lets nuke those swarthy hook-nosed Shiite Iranians into the stone age." DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

It's not really the whole mass murder thing that we find so distasteful here. It's all about how you frame your call for it.

What it really means is irellavent, if it offends shitloads of people then you are better off banning it.

What it really means is irellavent, if it offends shitloads of people then you are better off banning it.

Ban the hammer and sickle then, it offends me and probably most people, apart from the student type who buy ché shirts for 4 euro a go in a well known department store, guess what lads and ladies, it aint made in a gum drops factory run by a workers union.

This is my point, why not ban the hammer and sickle, double standards.

This is my point, why not ban the hammer and sickle, double standards.

If you read through the linked thread in the second post and look for posts from [violet], you'll find an explanation. Whether it's a double standard is irrelevant and will not be discussed further, as we have had this conversation at least once a quarter for the past 4-5 years and most of us are damn sick of it.

The decision has been made at the top. It will not change, Management is not interested in discussing it anymore, and it's a private site. Their rule is law.

End of discussion.

What the moderators are trying to say without actually saying is that the swastika is banned because there are lots of active anti-fascist groups which will create bad publicity for NS if it allows swastikas to be flown. On the other hand, communist crimes, despite being much more terrible, are largely ignored, and in some quarters the USSR is even thought to be a good thing, so few people will protest against the hammer and sickle in the media. There's no point pretending the decision is based on some sort of rational footing, or arguing against it on those terms - it isnt. It is deeply irrational. It's purely a PR decision.

What the moderators are trying to say without actually saying is ...

No, we're quite capable of saying exactly what we wish to say. You can speculate if you want that those are the reasons that Max and [violet] believe, but we don't really care. We've been told what to do, and that's what we'll do. End of story.

No you are incapable of saying what the reasons are. All you have said so far is "it is the way it is, because someone who refuses to divulge his reasons says so". This by its very nature opens the reasons up to speculation. Now, there is such a thing as reading between the lines, and it seems clear that, considering how illogical it is to ban Swastikas but not the flags of even more odious regimes than the Nazis, combined with knowledge of NationStates' past run-ins with the anti-fascist brigade over the once-powerful fascist regional grouping, there is only one truly probable explanation, and that is that the Swastika-ban is a PR decision, and not one rooted in any kind of logic.

However I thank you for unlocking the thread. It is almost always much better to discuss things than to simply suppress them, and I'm glad this is something that is being realised.

Why should there be any kind of logic?

Max has decreed that Swastikas are not acceptable to him, and thus they are prohibited. If you want to know why, ask Max. The mods have said this repeatedly over the years, why do they have to keep on saying it?

I think Frisbeeteria basically allured to the fact that he/she agrees with the fact that it is a double standard. But, IMO, there should be no reason the Swastika should be banned - a person should be able to express him/herself, even if others don't necessarily agree. Personally, I do find it annoying to have run-ins with pro-fascist nations in-character that also share the same feelings out-of-character and taunt you with their rantings, but they have as much of a right as I do to their opinion (even if I think their opinion is wrong).

No you are incapable of saying what the reasons are. All you have said so far is "it is the way it is, because someone who refuses to divulge his reasons says so".

There are two links in this thread that point to the EXTENSIVE discussion on this topic, where [violet] expressed her reasons for the ban. If you're not satisfied with her reasons, take it up with her.

We enforce the rules because it's a condition of our 'employment'. At no point in this thread did any mod explicitly say we AGREED or DISAGREED with the ruling, only that we enforced it. I for one don't appreciate having words put into my mouth that didn't come from my own brain.

If you want to argue about swastika policy on NS, feel free to open yet another thread in General. I can assure you that you won't have to put up with any of MY input in such a thread.

Since some of you are constitutionally incapable of accepting that this issue is closed, I'll just be locking the thread now.